Military Review

Why "Boeing" Ukrainians shot down

88
Why "Boeing" Ukrainians shot down



The question is quite interesting. Over the past year in the network appeared a lot of materials on this disaster. Endless photos, maps, schemes, comments. Disputes, discussions, smoothly turning into a friendly scuffle. Technical discussions on air defense related to this topic may well replace the corresponding theoretical course of a military higher educational institution.

However, disputes of this kind can last forever. There are no normal sources, everyone has different views and experiences. We will try to enter the target from another azimuth. Let us imagine a situation that everything was exactly as the Western media say: the militia shot down the plane.

Imagine a reasonable reaction of the Kiev authorities to this extraordinary event. First of all, you must withdraw suspicions from yourself. As they say, honest people do not wake up from every rustle. So, it is necessary to ensure maximum informational transparency of the actions of the Air Force and Air Defense of Ukraine at the time of the destruction of the Boeing.

Provide complete information on the deployment of Bukov, on the actions of combat aircraft, provide information on air-to-air and ground-to-air missiles. These rockets are few, they are expensive and numbered.

And so that everything grow together, the truth must be told all from the very beginning. Otherwise, nothing will burn out. War, speak? But at that moment the Ukrainian Air Force had already been beaten out by the militias, and the air defenses were inactive. They are useless against the Russian Air Force. It was necessary to give full access to any necessary information. Why not? There is nothing to hide.

It was necessary to submit to the press air traffic controllers. Immediately. The ones that led the Boeing. What are the secrets of honest people?

What would it give? It changed everything! Guilt with the APU was filmed immediately and completely, and the menacing pointing finger of general anger would be oriented towards the Kremlin. Sorry, but the cries and shouts of "and we said" do not mean anything.

The Ukrainian authorities immediately hid the dispatchers, pilots, Buki ... She hid everything. And she began to blame Russia loudly. Sorry, but if you are not to blame for the accident, do not hide from the accident scene.

Yes, all this information that I have listed usually constitutes a state secret. But here is a special case. The timely provision of this information, and this could easily be done, removed from Ukraine any guilt in the incident. Ukrainians, of course, will say that everything is clear, Putin shot down. No, everything is not clear. In this case, the word can not be trusted, the stakes are too high.

And in this case, I do not believe Putin for the word, I do not trust those who actively swept up their tracks, shelling the crash site. Honest people somehow do not need to do. Let the Dutch, the Malaysians, the Russians and anyone else look.

You know, the “Boeing’s political rally” reminds me of buying a Ferrari on credit from a representative of office plankton. Not with us, of course (with our interest), but somewhere in Switzerland. But all one - a person can pay, pay, pay. But he will not be able to pay - the loan amount is too large. But beautiful girls - all of it, definitely. So with the “innocently killed Boeing” - you can blame, accuse and once again accuse Russia, promising “clear and irrefutable evidence”. But it will never work out.

There is no evidence. If they were, they would be presented immediately upon detection. But alas, they are not. Therefore, Western politicians worked "on credit" - they loudly blamed Russia, promising the results of an "independent and objective investigation." These results are not, and will not. Never. Unless, of course, such a result is considered a bold conclusion: “the plane was shot down by a rocket”. That is, people have been digging land for more than a year, spending budget money, and this is the result.

In general, all this "investigation" looks rather strange, if not to say - stupid. Imagine the situation: there were two people at the crime scene - Mr. X and Mr. Y. What does the logic tell us? Logic tells us that the criminal is either Mr. X or Mr. Y. If it is too difficult, I can repeat it. That is, if the accusation is completely removed from Mr. X, it means that all questions to Mr. Y. If for some reason Mr. Y is innocent, it means that Mr. X is guilty. It's simple!

In the Boeing epic, there were only two possible perpetrators - either Russia or Ukraine. The Buk complex is not a tank or an artillery gun, everything is much more complicated. Accidental militiamen would never have been able to adequately control such a system. So Ukraine or Russia? It's very simple, if one of the two proves that it is clean, then all the questions to the second. It happens in detectives, in life it is usually more difficult. But the Dutch investigators were lucky: neither the Turks, nor the Americans, nor the Romanians (even the Romanians!) Could not make a hand here.

And honest Ukrainians are very lucky: if they prove their innocence and innocence, then all further questions will be addressed to V.V. Putin He really gets into a very, very unpleasant situation. Russia is an outcast and so on. Sweet revenge of a little Ukrainian, a totalitarian Asian monster. You see, any detective lover will easily confirm this to you - in such a case, you need to ensure maximum openness and accessibility. This is the worst blow to your opponent. He, being unclean, is forced to hide and hide evidence.

In short, the classic detective genre. The killer is the butler. But the Ukrainians did not look for easy ways, on the contrary, they classified everything that was possible. But honest people do not behave this way. Further, professional Dutch investigators "on the word" believe the Ukrainians and categorically do not believe the Russians, before the start of the investigation itself. That is, representatives of Ukraine (democratic, civilized state) are actively involved in the investigation, and Russian specialists are not allowed to come near him for a cannon shot. As I said, the killer is the butler.



A year has passed. Sounded loud accusations. Dust settled. Journalist provocations about the suddenly seen results died down. And silence. And the dead are the Dutch along the road.

Yes, there is a “hanging” when a Makarov pistol was used, of which there are hundreds of thousands. Go find it. Here the situation is fundamentally different. There are not so many missiles for Beeches, as well as Beeches themselves. Individuals and even large official figures do not own them. It’s just impossible to find a random rocket on the side, it’s impossible to cut it in the garage too. All rockets have numbers, all counted. A sudden and complete verification of the air defense of Ukraine would remove all questions to it. But Ukraine did not publicly do such things.

Sorry, but one simple conclusion follows from the above: the plane of the Malaysian airlines was shot down by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. All other options (they are essentially one) fall off.

Well, it does not happen that Vova is to blame, and his opponent Peter convulsively hides evidence. What for? In this case, Putin may be the standard of the dictator and the Doctor Evil in one person, but this does not prove anything. Rockets, reconciliation of numbers, points of deployment.

Therefore, from my point of view, all further “investigations” and “search for evidence” have no sense. The guys from Almaz-Antey with their “parallel investigation” are very welcome here. Their task is not to reveal who was to blame, but to parry the dagger attacks of the Dutch.

I agree that what I am writing is quite elementary, but everyone is somehow addicted to “conspiracy theories”, they start to study “Hubble images”, draw possible trajectories, study damage to the Boeing body. Why is this all about? Why all these “jumps and grips”?

It begins to resemble the Kennedy assassination. Everyone in the course (except for American inhabitants), for which he was killed. But there are more and more new versions. New evidence. Although from the very beginning it was known that the US government structures were involved in this.

So with Boeing. Millions are interested. Hundreds of millions. They (abroad) are wondering - when is Putin caught red-handed? But in Russia there are no less “investigators”. Almaz-Antey great, professionals. But I would go further in their place: I would create an English-language forum with sub-topics. I would have a hot, round-the-clock debate there. Constantly, bit by bit would give out new information, fried facts. Do the Dutch want to cooperate with us and keep everything secret? No problem. We will have our own forum "with blackjack and corrupt fraulein." Drag the audience over.

It would be possible to create a shareware program for independent calculations of Boeing and rocket trajectories. A kind of crowdfunding. Help solve the crime! And hundreds of millions of juzverej download it from the site Almaz-Anthea, install. At night the system blocks are buzzing ... They are looking for. In short, connect to the search for the entire planet. So that on each monitor was the icon of the downed Boeing. We have nothing to hide! That the Dutch authorities are hiding something ...

Of course, all this sounds cynical, but organizing a political show against the backdrop of a human tragedy is even more cynical. Guilty could be installed in the first week after the disaster. Absolutely accurate and without options. NATO had full access to all information inside Ukraine. And full control. So the fact of “classifying” irrefutably indicates the fault of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

The performance here would not have rolled. No matter how you prepare evidence, no matter how instruct people to lie, no matter how you rehearse, something will come out. Therefore - a complete "silence mode".

This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that in the published report, in fact, part of the blame is placed on Ukraine, which did not close the airspace above the conflict zone. And the swift, but unsuccessful attempt of the Dutch to reach Lavrov immediately after the publication of the report. For the Dutch government, it is time to pay on a political loan.

17 July 2014 was shot down by Boeing, and by July 18 the European Investment Bank, on the recommendation of the European Council, stopped new funding for new projects in Russia. How it all matched. Or did not match? Or is it just points of one plan? A kind of "attack on the radio station in Gleijvice"? Or "arson of the Reichstag by the Communists"?

In the West, they like to talk about the democracy of their system of government. In principle, to some extent it is. But it is necessary to mention the skillful manipulation of public opinion. True, for this sometimes you have to sacrifice something or someone.

The man in the street had to explain why these sanctions were so necessary. He (the western man in the street) is lazy, cowardly, covetous and tolerant. And then suddenly Putin knocks down a Boeing, and the anti-Putin investigation begins. But sanctions are imposed immediately.

By the way, if someone does not know, the Germans had a complete fail on the radio station in Gleijwitz - the broadcast to a wide radio listener did not take place. God is not Mitroshka, sees a little.
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  1. Dynamic systems
    Dynamic systems 20 October 2015 05: 47 New
    +8
    Teachers from the CIA lounged on their wards dill ...
    1. Sid.74
      Sid.74 20 October 2015 06: 34 New
      +29
      In general, all this "investigation" looks rather strange, if not to say - stupid.

      There is nothing strange in this, given that Holland is the only EU country to which all its gold was returned from the USA. The price of the 120 question is tons of gold, which the Dutch received right before investigating the MH17 crash. she did not close the sky for civilian ships during the period of military operations.
      And it turns out that the charges were not dropped from the militia, and Ukraine was not directly blamed, which is now under US protectorate. For the EU, everything worked out quite decently, and the wolves are intact, and the sheep are fed.
      1. severniy
        severniy 20 October 2015 09: 32 New
        +6
        Holland is the only EU country to which all its gold from the USA has been returned.

        Hmm ... Did they return it? ... There was information that China asked the United States for its gold, they returned part, and the Chinese (after all, inquisitive minds) took and sawed an ingot, and there oppa, tungsten inside .... Well, ours overseas "partners" are told to them, they say you’re not ashamed to check us! Friends don’t do that! Cinema karoch ...
        As far as the truth is unclear, but throughout the internet there are articles ...
        1. Rarahin
          Rarahin 20 October 2015 12: 17 New
          +8
          Quote: severniy
          Hmm ... have you returned?


          Could. 127 tons. Unlike Germany, which still walks behind the United States like a school chukhan with an outstretched handle: "Well, give, give, my gold ..."

          http://gold.ru/news/gollandija-smogla-to-chto-ne-smogla-germanija.html
      2. veksha50
        veksha50 20 October 2015 10: 36 New
        +2
        Quote: Sid.74
        And it turns out that and the militia was not dropped, and Ukraine wasn’t directly blamed,



        It is strange that the militia as such is mentioned only when it is said that the plane was shot down from the territory controlled by them ... But they directly blame it Russia.

        And to someone, but not to Russia and not to the militia of New Russia, the fall-wreck of this Boeing was beneficial ...

        PS And anyway, is there not enough to exaggerate this topic ??? It could be closed simply and quickly, at least by the same methods and methods that the author talks about ... And the investigation should have begun with the materials and testimonies of air traffic controllers ... And then - to develop further ...
    2. cyberhanter
      cyberhanter 20 October 2015 12: 19 New
      +5
      There is one simple principle. Always look to whom it is beneficial :) Russia was not profitable in any case. This is if a provocation. If there is a mistake, but it was apparently a mistake - see the activity and ask the same question. Hiding evidence is beneficial only to the culprit - it means the article is correct :) In essence. This is not evidence for the court, but enough for the layman, and here I agree on 100 percent
      1. Olezhek
        20 October 2015 13: 23 New
        +2
        I tried to prove mathematically accurate, so to speak, under no circumstances Poroshenko would not cover Putin.
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 20 October 2015 17: 06 New
          +1
          Olezhek, you correctly proved this theorem. I tried to find the zone of overlap of the radar of the air defense forces of this zone. The command included two regiments of rtv 338 339. So 338 regiment was supposed to see the place where the tragedy occurred. Viewing areas of 339 regiments are but viewing areas of 338 no regiment. One or two companies of the 338th regiment was supposed to see the scene of the tragedy.
  2. svp67
    svp67 20 October 2015 05: 47 New
    +16
    But at that moment, the Ukrainian Air Force was already knocked out by militias, and the air defense was inactive.
    Ukrainians, in defense of their position, express the following argument, by the way supported by our liberal ...
    “In that area, there was a concentration of troops and militia’s materiel, including“ vacationers, ”for the offensive. And so that the scale of preparations was hidden as far as possible and covered Su24r scouts from Ukrainian planes. And the Boeing was shot down from "because he was mistaken for this plane."
    Let us leave this version to the conscience of people, but then we will ask them to answer:
    1. A reconnaissance aircraft, a very important target that must be destroyed with a 100% guarantee and any air defense officer will say that for this it is necessary to carry out TWO missile launches, but NOT WHERE there is no talk about double launch.
    2. And even if you accept this version, then in the end one of the Ukrainians will explain why the Dnepropetrovsk operators forced the Boeing, the plane is very similar to the Su24p on the locator screen, according to them, in such a dangerous region, to perform some maneuvers and course and height, and not to make this similarity even more complete?
    So, whatever you may say, there is VINE of Ukraine.
    1. Andrea
      Andrea 20 October 2015 06: 15 New
      +10
      Until now, I thought that you could not confuse a Boeing with a fighter on a locator, and did you come up with transponders for something? hi
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 20 October 2015 06: 49 New
        +5
        And 30mm holes from the Su-25 gun (and not the Su-24r) with 8,5mm shrapnel, too. Even with 13mm flat I-beams.
        And it flies at such an altitude, moreover, it develops maximum speed there. And even UkrOboronService itself writes in its “products” about the Su-25 a prakic ceiling of 7000-10000 and there are 12000m.
        1. just exp
          just exp 20 October 2015 11: 56 New
          0
          12 thousand meters is if the cabin is pressurized. as well as up to 7 thousand
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 20 October 2015 12: 07 New
            +1
            Up to 14600 with a seal or high-rise suit, below 12 with an oxygen mask.
        2. kuz363
          kuz363 20 October 2015 12: 09 New
          +1
          But the speeds of the SU-25 and Boeing are almost equal - 900 km / h. And in order to get to the Boeing, the SU must fly to intercept, because it will not catch up with the tail. And the interception is in the Boeing’s forehead or sideways. The latter disappears, because you can’t get into the Boeing at its speed of 250 m / s with a stopping course from the cannon for sure. It also won’t work in the forehead, because the effective range of the airgun is 200-800 m. And when the aircraft approach each other, their mutual speed develops, i.e. 500 m / s! On aiming, shooting itself, avoiding a collision after firing, only 1-2 seconds remain maximum. There are no such aces in the world! Usually on newsreels shots are fired at the tail of the aircraft and nothing else.
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 20 October 2015 12: 40 New
            0
            The Su-25 has a Wikipedia speed of 950-975, the Boeing 905
            Behind a little to the right, fire was fired, this is a weekend 30mm hole.
      2. severniy
        severniy 20 October 2015 09: 38 New
        +5
        Quote: Andrea
        Until now, I thought that you could not confuse a Boeing with a fighter on a locator, and did you come up with transponders for something? hi

        Gee, I thought so too, but going to the west with electronics is all bad, the last confirmation of that is the NATO fighter’s approach to the board of our parliamentarians ... How else to identify the plane ..... request
      3. kuz363
        kuz363 20 October 2015 11: 55 New
        -1
        Transponders are not used on civilian aircraft.
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 20 October 2015 12: 02 New
          +2
          put civilian transponders, not a friend or foe
      4. vdtomsk
        vdtomsk 20 October 2015 12: 27 New
        +3
        Not in the subject, but about the war:
        October 2015. Ukrainians intensively dig a 3-meter ditch and build a 2-meter fence for "reliable protection from Russia", while Russia, meanwhile, fires cruise missiles at ISIS for 1500 km through Iraq and Iran. repeat
    2. sssla
      sssla 20 October 2015 09: 00 New
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      covered the Su24r scouts from Ukrainian aircraft. And the Boeing was shot down due to being mistaken for this plane.

      I’m in aviation, or rather, in its subtleties and secrets, not even a foot with my foot BUT even I can distinguish Su 24 from Boeing even at 10 km altitude !!! This is some kind of dau
      1. kuz363
        kuz363 20 October 2015 12: 12 New
        -4
        If a Boeing flies 10 km, and SU 5-6 km, then their linear dimensions are almost the same. The only thing is that the SU will move a little faster, because the height is less.
        1. sssla
          sssla 20 October 2015 13: 41 New
          0
          Quote: kuz363
          If a Boeing flies 10 km, and SU 5-6 km, then their linear dimensions are almost the same. The only thing is that the SU will move a little faster, because the height is less.

          Dear Alexander, about six months or a year ago, I wrote on the VO website that the air route passed over my house before the Boeing was shot down, and I can give an approximate, + or - 1 km altitude, knowing the model of the airliner, approximate speed and distance from me in km. Just like another normal person in memory!
          hi A year ago I got a real-time flight tracking program for airliners and check my eye (sometimes when a rare local bird flies in the form of lonely passenger airliners) It hasn’t gone astray yet
    3. veksha50
      veksha50 20 October 2015 10: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      the plane is VERY similar on the locator screen to the Su24r,



      Um ... I am not a Pvoshnik, however, it seems to me that the size of the planes is radically different from each other, which means that the illumination on the screen of the tracking-guidance station should be different ... Elephant and Pug, Boeing and Su-24r .. .
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 20 October 2015 16: 37 New
        +1
        veksha50! The illumination on the radar screen depends on the reflecting surface of the aircraft but not on the size. On military aircraft, everything is done to reduce this surface. A passive interference corner the size of 10 centimeters can give you such a flare as if you are flying a Boeing 787 . This is done without interference suppression. But usually, taking into account the AGC, the size of the aircraft looks the same regardless of size.
        1. veksha50
          veksha50 20 October 2015 19: 06 New
          0
          Quote: Amurets
          the size of the aircraft looks the same regardless of size.



          That is, the illumination on the screen of the Boeing, and from the Su-24r will be the same ???
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 21 October 2015 00: 43 New
            +1
            Yes, it’s about the same. You can distinguish it at the signal of the respondent of the identification system Alien-Alien.
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 21 October 2015 00: 51 New
              0
              illumination - maybe, but not the radio signature by which they determine ...

              on Russian Buki there is an international civil transponder detector
              1. Amurets
                Amurets 21 October 2015 01: 37 New
                +1
                Scraptor! Thank you. Once there is a detector, that means there should be a ban channel on the use of rockets on civilian aircraft. You can only block it at the rocket training center in the technical division. This means that the lock was removed specially. On the rocket that shot down the Tu-154 over the Black Sea the lock was removed erroneously when preparing the rocket.
                1. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 21 October 2015 02: 14 New
                  0
                  On the seals hangs a block right in the cockpit.
                  Su-25 knocked him out of an air gun - Buk missiles 30mm round holes do not.

                  Jamming "Antey" just over the Dutch trackers, who are trying to not see these 30mm holes point blank. Which also weekend and not input.
                  1. Amurets
                    Amurets 21 October 2015 08: 57 New
                    +1
                    I guess! The anti-aircraft gunner himself. Only the air defense of the country and served for a long time. On the S-75 and S-200, this unit could be turned off only in the technical division. At the request of the team, the friend or foe at that time gave out the flight number. Why do I know, in my time the second and third shifts of the combat crew were completed from those who could be involved in combat work. I served as an electrician driver, but I also had to know the responsibilities of the operator or tablet player. And this was the responsibility of the entire personnel of the radio battery and the calculation of the SEC
                    1. Scraptor
                      Scraptor 21 October 2015 09: 21 New
                      0
                      On Buka, the seals break down right in place, and the blocking of missile launch for this purpose is turned off. Civilian sides are marked directly on the indicator without a number.
                      1. Amurets
                        Amurets 21 October 2015 11: 15 New
                        +1
                        But our military went without a number. When we asked for a friend or foe from the military, the bundle simply swelled up.
                      2. Scraptor
                        Scraptor 21 October 2015 14: 47 New
                        0
                        The transponder issues on a confidential basis, well, or the board is captured, so you need a bad option with a failure of seals.
  • Finches
    Finches 20 October 2015 05: 50 New
    +14
    In the USA they know that Ukrainians shot down a Boeing, in the Netherlands they know that Ukrainians shot down a Boeing ... even in Ukraine they are absolutely sure of this, but! Russia is to blame!
    1. Andrea
      Andrea 20 October 2015 06: 23 New
      +5
      Discussing such issues is already becoming irritable, although the article is written easily and logically, but all the theses are old.
      To establish the truth, obviously, it will be possible only as a result of new political turbulences or when we infringe on someone Faberge and he begins to merge dirt.
      1. tank64rus
        tank64rus 20 October 2015 18: 08 New
        0
        Here we must proceed from the generally recognized methodology of all investigations. Who benefits from it and why for what purpose. Unhappy Boeing with its passengers was not needed by anyone. Shot it by mistake. Waiting for another plane. It was painful that the plane annoyed the West and others. But the owners did not want to shine. entrusted the execution to the servants, but those stupid ones overwhelmed others. Something went wrong. Well, then we decided to squeeze everything out of this possible once it so happened - to announce sanctions. The media gave FAS the go-ahead for Russia, so that the layman could not think .. Because a normal person will immediately have questions for what purpose, etc. and God knows what he’ll think of, and it smells of collapse for so many.
      2. tank64rus
        tank64rus 20 October 2015 18: 08 New
        0
        Here we must proceed from the generally recognized methodology of all investigations. Who benefits from it and why for what purpose. Unhappy Boeing with its passengers was not needed by anyone. Shot it by mistake. Waiting for another plane. It was painful that the plane annoyed the West and others. But the owners did not want to shine. entrusted the execution to the servants, but those stupid ones overwhelmed others. Something went wrong. Well, then we decided to squeeze everything out of this possible once it so happened - to announce sanctions. The media gave FAS the go-ahead for Russia, so that the layman could not think .. Because a normal person will immediately have questions for what purpose, etc. and God knows what he’ll think of, and it smells of collapse for so many.
    2. NordUral
      NordUral 20 October 2015 09: 30 New
      0
      The states, of course, know that in their development the Ukrainians brought down the Boeing, but did it very badly - the board did not reach Russia, where it was supposed to fall. Golanders, believe that they did not know, but out of Atlantic solidarity they cover the States and the Outskirts (maybe there are still motives. I don’t know). And they’re hanging noodles around the world about aggressive Russia
      1. Karlovar
        Karlovar 20 October 2015 19: 29 New
        +1
        Russia has all the evidence about Boeing: satellite images (photos, videos) from their satellites, or intercepted from the US, intercepting negotiations between dispatchers, the Ukrainian military airborne ground, they didn’t “find” one black box, it means Russia’s .. ..Well, etc. Only this fact does not allow Holland (implied-USA) to present a clean fake as a report! Russia does not expose these evidence to the world public, it is waiting for the State Department to push through the falsification, which will ruin its reputation completely and irrevocably! Yes, and these evidence, no matter how blasphemous it may sound, is a very valuable product (you can’t resurrect the dead all), which can be very beneficial for the interests of the country to sell to the State Department .... This is my purely personal opinion, version ...
  • Lunic
    Lunic 20 October 2015 05: 50 New
    +9
    Quote: “That's the way with Boeing. Millions are interested. Hundreds of millions. They (abroad) are wondering when will they catch Putin red-handed? But there are no less“ investigators ”in Russia. Almaz-Antey is great, professional. But I would go further in their place: I would create an English-language forum with subtopics. I would have a hot, round-the-clock debate there. Constantly, would piece out new information, fried facts. Do the Dutch don’t want to cooperate with us and keep everything secret? . We will have our own forum “with blackjack and corrupt fraudlines. Drag the audience onto yourself.”

    From myself: I fully agree with the paragraph above. It was high time to do this.
    As we were taught, hit the enemy with his same weapon ..
    1. max702
      max702 20 October 2015 11: 01 New
      +1
      Yes, in this direction we are still lagging behind the bourgeoisie .. the inertness of thinking and the lack of understanding of today's realities also affects, to see a person who is responsible for this direction either of very advanced years, or an incompetent relative or friend (this is the main problem of our state son-in-law, godmother, matchmaker ..). There is a great film with De Niro and Dustin Hoffman, "The tail wags the dog" there is perfectly shown ALL current politics, and the IMPORTANCE of the media ..
  • avia12005
    avia12005 20 October 2015 05: 55 New
    +5
    I fully agree. We should also ask the World of Tanks team to make a computer simulator using air defense means. And let the whole world look at how Buki works so that there are no questions.
  • Tatar 174
    Tatar 174 20 October 2015 05: 55 New
    0
    100500 percent it was immediately clear that the Ukrainians shot down the plane, according to all the indirect evidence in the article. Now it is clearer than clear.
  • Wolka
    Wolka 20 October 2015 05: 57 New
    +2
    and "on the thief and the hat is on," we didn’t come up with, but as they say, "not in the eyebrow but in the eye," what can you say ... Ukraine, at the behest of the Yankees, has become an outcast and apparently for a long time ...
  • Foresterer
    Foresterer 20 October 2015 06: 15 New
    +2
    Indeed, it was necessary to wage informational warfare from the very beginning, but either there was nobody, or we could not. To trample in the mud, scouring the facts daily, press conferences, interviews, reports, articles, TV shows, the Internet: for the state the amount is scanty, and there would be more use than justification for a whole year, you could not name it otherwise. Nefig sword against a grenade wave. As they are fighting against us in the information space, so we need, only smarter and meaner, moreover, the truth is on our side. And the Duma did not help in this regard, there are no figures there, only skaters. I hope the lesson will do good.
    1. avia12005
      avia12005 20 October 2015 07: 24 New
      +1
      There is not enough money for the information war, and there are plenty of shows on various foolish shows and series.
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus 20 October 2015 06: 35 New
    0
    Malaysian Boeing was simply sacrificed.
    Purely released by the shooter to create an occasion for
    pressure on Russia. But since it didn’t work, they will try to forget it as soon as possible.
    Maybe this will soon be arranged in Syria, so we will not let strangers go there.
    1. sssla
      sssla 20 October 2015 09: 02 New
      0
      Quote: Zomanus
      Maybe they’ll arrange it soon in Syria,

      There was already a chemical weapon
  • Mitrich76
    Mitrich76 20 October 2015 06: 48 New
    +3
    Everyone who shot down the Boeing really understood and understood from the very beginning. Exactly. But since the goal was not Boeing himself, but a reason to accuse Russia, the entire arsenal of information warfare immediately turned on.
    And the Malays were removed so as not to interfere with the time. And all the rest, especially do not care who died there, they need to support the overseas master in pressure on those who "need".
    And there will be no honesty, and reliable investigation data, until the US decides to merge 404 with the junta together.
    1. EvgNik
      EvgNik 20 October 2015 07: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: Mitrich76
      the goal was not Boeing himself, but a reason for blaming Russia

      This is the most basic. Like the fact that even before our planes took off in Syria, it was announced that civilians had died. Links of one chain.
  • mr.vasilievich
    mr.vasilievich 20 October 2015 07: 04 New
    +3
    It is the behavior of Ukraine and Europe, which instantly determined the culprit, proves who shot down the plane.
    1. sssla
      sssla 20 October 2015 09: 03 New
      0
      Quote: mr.vasilievich
      instantly identify the culprit

      This is one of the indirect evidence! ONE of MANY!
  • Voha_krim
    Voha_krim 20 October 2015 07: 08 New
    +3
    The position of Kiev looks much more “transparent”, which since April 2014 from international stands began to demand recognition of the DPR and LPR as terrorist organizations. For such a solution, the very smallness was not enough - real terrorist attacks, and even with the mass death of foreigners.
    Regardless of the final method of mass murder of people, Petro Poroshenko already had a prepared accusatory speech. Now, in his opinion, the cherished dream of international recognition of the DPR and LPR as terrorist organizations was a matter of time. However, his plans were not destined to come true ...
  • Volzhanin
    Volzhanin 20 October 2015 07: 32 New
    0
    Amid all this, it’s fun to watch how our government licks amers opu.
  • Shurale
    Shurale 20 October 2015 07: 49 New
    -14
    Guys, what are you arguing about, the international commission showed samples of the destructive elements found in the remains of the plane, Almaz-Antey clearly pointed out that these were the pieces of a new beech missile that only Russia has (butterfly shape). What am I arguing about now ?????

    http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/brochure-mh17-crash-ru.pdf
    1. UNAUTHORIZED
      UNAUTHORIZED 20 October 2015 07: 58 New
      0
      I’m sure to buy a couple of these items if desired.
      1. Shurale
        Shurale 20 October 2015 17: 37 New
        -1
        If ours have a suspicion that they were thrown, then why are our silent about this, why are there no charges of juggling facts with striking elements?
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 21 October 2015 04: 47 New
          0
          Because they can be Ukrainian ...
          For a long time there have been accusations that the Dutch tracker does not see 30mm holes from shells that such 13mm I-beams will not make.
          1. Shurale
            Shurale 21 October 2015 08: 08 New
            0
            Can you read the reports of OUR specialists? Diamond Antey stated that SUCH attacking elements are only in our missiles. Do you believe our specialists ?????
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 21 October 2015 08: 18 New
              0
              are you SMOKING at all? are you SMOKING?

              no 13mm elements of a 30mm hole (which are available on a Boeing) from 30mm shells will not do.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g
              15:26
    2. cergey51046
      cergey51046 20 October 2015 08: 15 New
      +1
      Have you fallen from the moon? The opposite is true.
      1. sssla
        sssla 20 October 2015 09: 04 New
        +2
        Quote: cergey51046
        Have you fallen from the moon?

        Smokes something
    3. kuz363
      kuz363 20 October 2015 12: 16 New
      0
      This is a butterfly shaped hole. And the striking element itself is in the form of an I-beam.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 20 October 2015 12: 25 New
        0
        There are round holes 30mm from the gun, I-beam 13mm
      2. Shurale
        Shurale 20 October 2015 17: 48 New
        -1
        Dude, when did you see the I-beam?
        Now look at the striking elements.
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 21 October 2015 04: 45 New
          0
          You didn’t understand, they didn’t find a rocket, you can throw a 13-tee I-beam like drugs into your pocket (by the way, APU is not written on them or not).
          But they found the Su-25 on the radar, and 30mm output holes from its air gun on the cockpit of a Boeing.
          1. Shurale
            Shurale 22 October 2015 08: 19 New
            -1
            You don’t understand, you didn’t find a rocket

            if you finally get acquainted with the investigation, watch the video, and stop watching TV, you will see that parts of the rocket were found among the wreckage of the cabin, there are detailed photos and videos ...
            By the way, what kind of "suddenly removed BBS video" they all do not understand, here is the link:
            http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34514727
            just started everything works ...

            my advice is less, watch our news and look for more info yourself in the internet ...
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 23 November 2015 12: 59 New
              0
              this is another link, do not understand - do not write ...
              type in google "bbs deleted report"

              holes from a 30mm gun were found on the wreckage of the cabin, in large numbers.

              What is your nickname on Censor?
    4. kotvov
      kotvov 20 October 2015 12: 55 New
      0
      than to argue now I don’t understand ????? ,,
      Suppose you don’t understand, but that doesn’t mean that you can be trusted. Have you ever been aware of when these elements appeared, why there are only two of them, and why are they all different? Can you do something else, for example, writing Bandera chants
      1. Shurale
        Shurale 20 October 2015 17: 51 New
        -3
        Here is the link to the video of the investigation report:
        http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34514727
        uploaded 16: 04
        9.37 time of the video there 4 trowel of the butterfly, different and not those in the photo in the report, so there were more of them.
        I’m a patriot no less than yours, but I don’t like when my government holds me for a fool ...
        If you don’t know how to do it - don’t take it, but you did it, do it normally, but you crap one's pants — be able to admit it.
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 21 October 2015 04: 34 New
          0
          And there was a video that is now being searched only through Google by: "BBS deleted the report."

          And there was and there is a photo where a bloodthirsty militia shook a children's toy.

          13mm I-beams do not make 30mm holes, they make incisions ...
  • cergey51046
    cergey51046 20 October 2015 08: 13 New
    +1
    It is clear to everyone sane that the Ukrainians shot down, according to the teachings of the United States. This is not the first case. The evidence is more than enough. These are telephone conversations of a CIA agent with a Ukrainian performer, urgent cleaning of all evidence, testimony of Buk military personnel, testimony of witnesses, and testimony of an APU pilot. finally the Almaz-Antey experiment. But I really want the United States to go dry out of the water.
  • Erg
    Erg 20 October 2015 08: 30 New
    +5
    In fact, the Boeing was shot down by the Americans (Ukrainian hands). Over the past century, the Yankees have not had a single “clean” operation. Pearl Horbor, Kennedy, lunar programs, Bin Laden, twin towers, now, here is a Boeing ... Yes, a lot more. Their “handwriting” cannot be confused with anything. Everywhere lies and hypocrisy. Everything is sewn with white thread.
  • By001261
    By001261 20 October 2015 08: 35 New
    +2
    But I really want the United States to get dry out of the water. [/ Quote]
    But it is unlikely that it will succeed either in Ukraine or the United States
  • alex74nur
    alex74nur 20 October 2015 09: 17 New
    +4
    The author did not indicate yet another important detail, namely the lack of images from Amer’s satellites, which (purely by chance) on the day of the disaster dangled in the crash area.
  • Kelwin
    Kelwin 20 October 2015 10: 04 New
    +1
    Everything is correctly and logically written in the article, everything is clear and there shouldn’t be any questions. But they are. Just do not immediately write down in conspiracy, the logic is the same as that of the author of the article.
    For five months, two sides are identical to the nut, of the same airline, having undergone maintenance in the same hangar a week or two before, with a momentary loss of all communication, on the echelon, they perform a similar maneuver before disappearing from the radar. One was lost, the second broke. How did it happen? Probability theory should kill itself against the wall.
    No, I understand that this is all speculation and coincidence, but it’s impossible to score, no matter how it all turns out to be just the tip of the iceberg. And this, from the first report of AA and then the conference of the Federal Air Transport Agency "If B had been shot down from Buk, it would be exclusively a 9M38 missile ..." This “IF” is some strange, obviously intentionally inserted, but it’s not clear why - either they simply left a loophole for the “Western partners”, or a hint of some knowledge or suggestion that it might not be an air defense system at all. There is some kind of ambush, kmk.
  • Kelwin
    Kelwin 20 October 2015 10: 46 New
    +1
    Quote: Erg
    Their "handwriting" can not be confused with anything

    Here I am just about it. All of the above, as well as the subject, is done according to one template. From everywhere the mattress ears stick out. Maybe even this time the excuse generator will jam.
  • cniza
    cniza 20 October 2015 10: 48 New
    +3
    Quote: Dynamic Systems
    Teachers from the CIA lounged on their wards dill ...



    They had no idea who they contacted, and now ...
  • vlazar
    vlazar 20 October 2015 11: 18 New
    +4
    I think it’s even easier, the Americans wanted a sacred sacrifice. The operation was developed by the CIA, ordered the Ukrainians to bring down a civilian plane, but it should fall on the territory of Russia, then there would be no investigation whatsoever, they would reject any investigation due to Russia's manipulation of all the facts. But the Ukrainians went wild again and the Boeing fell in the wrong place. The choice of Malaysia is also logical, this country will not blather a word against the United States. And now the states cannot leave Poroshenko, as they are tied to him and if something happens, he will hand them over, therefore either forever with the states or mycardial infarction.
  • McLuha-MacLeod
    McLuha-MacLeod 20 October 2015 11: 21 New
    +2
    Why argue. Here for 100 km it smells like provocation. Who is the first provocateur in the world? Correct = Small Britain and the United States. Here it is necessary to reason on the principle of "Who needs it." Russia and the militias do not need this. So you can immediately see where the ears stick out.
  • Andryukha G
    Andryukha G 20 October 2015 11: 55 New
    0
    They forgot to write an investigation in a beautiful and informative tablet ... Ukraine - “They organized artillery bombardment of the crash site and the debris of the plane they shot down on the ground” + “In a similar situation, having shot down a Russian passenger plane Tu 154 over the Black Sea in 2001, they completely denied and do not recognize for 14 years his guilt. "
  • kostavit
    kostavit 20 October 2015 12: 27 New
    -6
    It’s very simple to interrogate Strelkov with a lie detector. Everyone knows perfectly well who shot down the Boeing. The camera with the inversion track pictures was bought out, already in Holland. Did you betray us in New Russia and are trying to lie further?
  • kostavit
    kostavit 20 October 2015 12: 30 New
    -3
    Go to the Syria forum. Igor Strelkov was betrayed, Assad tomorrow, as Zhirinovsky was the day before yesterday ...
    1. VadimSt
      VadimSt 20 October 2015 13: 09 New
      +3
      The sky does not fall on you, or maybe you hear other people's voices?
  • Northern Fleet
    Northern Fleet 20 October 2015 12: 32 New
    -5
    Don’t bring nonsense if Ukraine had knocked it all the RosSMI and the Ministry of Defense would have trumpeted it, instead they showed a delusional briefing with large generals rubbing us that its SU 25 had shot down, are you really so naive and you can’t understand what a state like Russia cannot know where the rocket was launched 100km from its borders. Everyone knows for a long time and the discharge of LDNR confirms this again.
    1. Olezhek
      20 October 2015 17: 23 New
      0
      Do not carry nonsense if Ukraine knocked him about it would all Trussia and the Ministry of Defense


      At one time, the knocking of a Korean Boeing was a complete surprise for the USSR, but in the West a well-prepared wave of indignation arose ...

      So here ... In the Russ, this was not expected.
  • moskal
    moskal 20 October 2015 12: 58 New
    -4
    Hello everyone. I am a pederast from Ukraine, join our LGBT community.
    1. moskal
      moskal 20 October 2015 13: 09 New
      -1
      Hello everyone. I am a pederast from Ukraine, join our LGBT community.
      1. moskal
        moskal 20 October 2015 13: 30 New
        +3
        is this normal at all ??
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 20 October 2015 15: 56 New
          0
          You have 2 mistakes right in the word Pendergast.

          The girls were offended ... wassat
  • Northern Fleet
    Northern Fleet 20 October 2015 13: 03 New
    -7
    Quote: moskal
    slow down the patriots ... but what about the witness that he didn’t come to the Komsomol?
    http://www.chel.kp.ru/daily/26323.5/3204312/
    Mighty Russia has put forward the most fantastic versions from the very beginning - choose whatever you like.)))

    I support the comrade, recently State Duma deputy Markin (I could be wrong) said that “militias” fired from the BUK but missed, and the plane finished off the APU to substitute them from their BUK.
    1. SIvan
      SIvan 21 October 2015 20: 25 New
      0
      Can you give a link?
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 20 October 2015 13: 04 New
    +3
    Not every state can afford provocations using civilian aircraft. However, like not every terrorist or terrorist organization.
    The technical side of such operations is either prepared for years, or they use the experience and experience of previous special operations.
    It is enough to pick up and watch the leaked media reports, many years after their commission, the facts of the investigation of some special operations. Especially clearly, the organization of the technical side of the provocation can tell about the complexity of such special operations. Just remember the investigation of the tragedy with a South Korean plane in 1983 or the terrorist attack on the United States in September 2001.
    The organization of the "Malaysian" provocation is no less large-scale, including from the technical side, but it turned out to be "dirty" implemented at the execution stage. Either the organizers became less professional, or they picked up the idiots of the performers!
    1. Erg
      Erg 21 October 2015 21: 46 New
      0
      I really liked you - "terrorist attack on the United States in September 2001" good Are you not from the moon? ..
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Olezhek
    20 October 2015 13: 28 New
    0
    Gentlemen, the details are not absolutely important. If immediately after the incident, the Ukrainian side begins to hide everything and everyone, it means “stigma in a gun”. Details are interesting only to journalists and the general public.
  • Kelwin
    Kelwin 20 October 2015 13: 36 New
    0
    Quote: vlazar
    The operation was developed by the CIA, ordered the Ukrainians to bring down a civilian plane, but it should fall on the territory of Russia <...>


    Well, such a conclusion suggests itself, but there is a nuance. Special operations of this kind do not allow (should not allow) indefinite introductory ones. We are not so naive as to take the CIA for the full 1psaki). They could not take into account the handshake of the performers on the 404 side, otherwise they would have been driven a long aspen stake. And then another conclusion suggests itself - they performed it themselves, previously conducted a full-scale experiment (flight 370), but they themselves failed / miscalculated. The fact that the accusations against us appeared almost before the fall of the first wreckage (well, I’m exaggerating, of course)), hints at the launch of the previously prepared plan “B”. Surely there is also a "B".
    1. vlazar
      vlazar 20 October 2015 14: 35 New
      +1
      As for the nuance, I would not idealize the CIA, I encounter large Western companies at work and I will tell you, I’m sometimes surprised how they built their capitalism in general, there are often more jambs than our companies.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 20 October 2015 14: 41 New
        0
        Generally close to ideal ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Kelwin
        Kelwin 20 October 2015 15: 17 New
        0
        Well, this is not idealization, but it’s a reasonable handicap, it’s better to overdo it) It’s similar in work - we don’t understand how it can be worked, just a different mentality, they focus on a template-system approach, and, to a certain extent, it works. The non-standard situation is a failure, everything hangs). Zadornov smoothed them while still loving, but in fact answering machines with a conditioned reflex))
  • sledge
    sledge 20 October 2015 13: 59 New
    0
    Unfortunately, nobody in the world is interested in who shot down the Boeing (or rather, everyone knows who shot down) - the main thing is who is “to blame”
  • Evil 55
    Evil 55 20 October 2015 15: 46 New
    +1
    In 2084, this investigation will end .... There are only five hundred thousand 221 series of accusations of Russia for the destruction of a Malaysian aircraft ... Now Gneuropa is waiting for the collapse of UKRALINA ... So that NO ONE and ANYTHING are to blame for anything .. There is no state and no claims ...
  • solidus
    solidus 20 October 2015 16: 53 New
    -2
    The probability that the Boeing was shot down by militias is much higher. Ukraine didn’t make sense to shoot anyone down at all, because the militias have no planes, and the version with Putin’s plane is complete nonsense. In turn, the militia at that time shot down Ukrainian planes very often. The conclusion suggests itself.
    1. Olezhek
      20 October 2015 17: 17 New
      +1
      Ukraine did not make sense at all to shoot down someone, because the militias have no planes,


      Then there was no sense for Ukraine to hide anything either.
      But ... request
    2. tank64rus
      tank64rus 20 October 2015 18: 25 New
      +1
      What is the conclusion to ... Where are the dispatchers. Why did the Boeing come down and change the flight route. Why didn’t they close the airspace contrary to world practice. Where did the soldiers and officers of the Ukrainian air defense systems of the former in the area where the SU25 pilot went? And if the militia would have Buki, then in that desperate situation when the APU pressed them to the border, they did not bring down dill aviation to the right and left, but shot down from MANPADS. Where at least one dill plane shot down by a BEech. Tired of the audacity with which we have been taught how to live for 25 years. Let's go there ... where the trams go.
    3. tank64rus
      tank64rus 20 October 2015 18: 25 New
      +1
      What is the conclusion to ... Where are the dispatchers. Why did the Boeing come down and change the flight route. Why didn’t they close the airspace contrary to world practice. Where did the soldiers and officers of the Ukrainian air defense systems of the former in the area where the SU25 pilot went? And if the militia would have Buki, then in that desperate situation when the APU pressed them to the border, they did not bring down dill aviation to the right and left, but shot down from MANPADS. Where at least one dill plane shot down by a BEech. Tired of the audacity with which we have been taught how to live for 25 years. Let's go there ... where the trams go.
    4. Scraptor
      Scraptor 21 October 2015 04: 53 New
      -1
      And why were there so many "Buk"? And the planes were military next to him, why? The conclusion begs what? And holes from avipaushki on it why?

      It made sense to bring him down and say that they were militias.
    5. APE
      APE 22 October 2015 01: 48 New
      0
      "... militias have no planes"
      http://www.rbc.ru/politics/07/07/2014/934926.shtml

      this is the first one.
      a, secondly, if
      "In turn, the militias shot down Ukrainian planes at that time"
      then:
      the head of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine Valery Gletey reported to the president of the country Petro Poroshenko that due to the fact that the An-26 plane in the Lugansk region went at an altitude of 6,5 km, its defeat by portable anti-aircraft systems is impossible, that is, "the plane was hit by another, more powerful missile weapons that were probably used from the territory of the Russian Federation. "

      In turn, the speaker of the NSDC Information and Analytical Center Andrei Lysenko suggested that the Ukrainian An-26 military transport aircraft could be shot down from a Russian aircraft. "Based on the data transmitted by the Ukrainian pilots, two versions are considered: the shot was fired by a ground-based missile from the Pantsir missile system or by an air-to-air homing missile X-24, which was fired from an airplane raised from the Russian Millerovo airport" http : //www.interfax.ru/world/385677

      By the way, you don’t know where the wreckage of that An-26 fell and whether the I-shaped PEs were found in them? And in general, was his “knocking out” the logical beginning of the “Separate Terrorists with Russian Buk” special operation?
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • Clueless
    Clueless 20 October 2015 16: 59 New
    0
    And honest Ukrainians were very lucky: if they prove their innocence and innocence, then all further questions will be addressed to V.V. To Putin. He really gets into a very, very unpleasant situation. Russia is an outcast and so on. The sweet revenge of a little Ukrainian, a totalitarian Asian monster.


    Now, if the current totalitarian Asian monster is driven into a dead end, it will tear not the current of a small Ukrainian, but also the European and all sympathizers, because he will not lose anything.

    How can they not understand one simple obvious thing beyond the hillock - we Russians are not afraid of war, for we are already accustomed that every century "Basurmani" come to us to impose their own rules. Another thing, we don’t want to fight, because we know how many victims each such war is on our side.

    Everybody teases us, they tease us, I feel soon to be teased, the whole world is in dust, and I am so used to the Internet, it will be boring without him.
    1. Olezhek
      20 October 2015 17: 25 New
      0
      Sweet revenge of a little Ukrainian, a totalitarian Asian monster.


      Everybody teases us, they tease us, I feel soon to be teased, the whole world is in dust, and I am so used to the Internet, it will be boring without him.


      I usually abuse alcohol irony. bully
  • Navy7981
    Navy7981 20 October 2015 17: 05 New
    -1
    99,999% shot down at ky. Because for them (and still amerma) it is profitable. Another question is that, as always, execution failed. Performers are more "faithful", not smart. It would be different - the howl would stand, the Himalayas would collapse. The awl then stick out of the bag in different directions.
  • Aleksej49
    Aleksej49 20 October 2015 19: 51 New
    0
    Quote: solidus
    The probability that the Boeing was shot down by militias is much higher. Ukraine didn’t make sense to shoot anyone down at all, because the militias have no planes, and the version with Putin’s plane is complete nonsense. In turn, the militia at that time shot down Ukrainian planes very often. The conclusion suggests itself.


    If the conclusion begs for itself, then where is the negotiation data of air traffic controllers, American satellites, etc., etc. But the militias certainly did not make sense to shoot down because the plane was flying towards Russia. But in order to impose sanctions on Russia, a reason was needed. As for the Boeing passengers, this does not count.
  • S-cream
    S-cream 20 October 2015 20: 38 New
    +1
    Yes, in this case the proof is “the opposite” - the simplest.
  • Olegater
    Olegater 20 October 2015 21: 48 New
    +1
    Normal and thinking people understood everything perfectly well - who shot down the plane and why. But where is the Malaysian board missing at the beginning of the year ??????? There were no investigations there. Or maybe they didn’t spend it in vain then this Boeing may not have been shot down ??? I am sure that there is a connection between the planes.
    1. Kelwin
      Kelwin 21 October 2015 00: 33 New
      0
      Well, according to the logic of Western "partners", there is no subject for investigation, there is no body - no business. There is a search operation, in the sense it was, ended with nothing - the 300-ton colossus simply disappeared.
      When Inmarsat said that they calculated the possible routes of the 370th on the basis of the Doppler frequency shift of the signal, which (supposedly) squeezed the terminal from itself onto a satellite (ancient, by the way) with an orbit height of 35+ thousand km., It became clear that the circus had left, and the clowns remained, and that the shop can be closed.
      What actually happened - about the 370th have already been forgotten, such as irrelevant ...
      And no one, from any noticeable figures, even tried to draw such an obvious parallel as they got water in their mouths. It seems that those who are sure that they will never tell the truth are right; everything is going to that. Ehh ...
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 21 October 2015 01: 21 New
        +2
        The truth will come out if it hasn’t crawled out somewhere on a highly specialized encrypted channel. The truth about the Sakhalin Boeing crawled out after the investigation was carried out by the Independent Association of Civil Aviation Pilots of France. There was a large article on the occasion of Iran’s Technique-Youth magazine Boeing over the Persian Gulf. At least then everything was blamed on the Aegis system errors. In 1983, the CIA opened an air defense system in the Far East. And it turned out to be a resounding failure. how was the debris search operation carried out.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • APE
    APE 22 October 2015 01: 37 New
    0
    The people, well - let's say - the slow pedantic Dutch still found the I-beams and it was a NEW rocket.
    and???
    and it turns out that scattered - SUCH morons! - TAKEN, AND ... SUBMITTED !!!?
    And by the way, where is the PE in (allegedly) shot down before the AN-26? After all, the aggressor of Ryuza first trained on it, carried it?
    But there is ANOTHER OPTION: maybe it was Khrytny Ukrainians who got one rocket? what? After all, if you conceived a provocation and a little bit with brains, you’ll figure out how to put a shadow on the right wattle fence!
  • APE
    APE 22 October 2015 01: 58 New
    0
    Last summer I was brought to the page of Mark Solonin.
    The famous storyteller squeezed an article in which he assured that the option of provocation should be deleted: reputational losses were too great.
    I wrote to him first in PM:
    “Mark Semenovich, but if it is“ right ”to carry out (crossed out) the investigation by the parties concerned, then these losses will be there (if they will be at all)!
    Solonin did not answer me :(
    But I'm like a tick)) - climbed into the discussion. But he lived there for only three days, somehow suspiciously quickly exhausted a certain message limit. - it didn’t immediately come to the point that ban was called such a euphemism)))
    So not only that - Mark Semyonitch also rubbed ALL my posts !!!
    A curtain! )))
    PS yes, you need to look at the reaction of this cowardly nits now - after the cowardly and vile "proceedings" of the Dutch
    1. Scraptor
      Scraptor 22 October 2015 02: 06 New
      0
      And what kind of reputation loss did the Americans suffer after they attacked Iraq in 2003? Of course, after the first they did not find the surviving chemical weapons there? Which they themselves before, in violation of the non-proliferation treaties, together with the Germans, gave Saddam against Islamic Iran? Which passenger plane did they simply shoot down over neutral waters to put this country in place?
      1. APE
        APE 22 October 2015 10: 10 New
        0
        the amendment is accepted: ... or these losses are not scary to the culprit.
      2. APE
        APE 22 October 2015 11: 36 New
        0
        although ... it’s all the same two big differences: overwhelming the unwashed Arabs and other Persians, and - on the territory of tseeuropa.