MiG 1.44 MFI: 5-generation fighter 2000 of the year

The fifth-generation multipurpose fighter MiG 1.44 MFI, in its characteristics, was not inferior to the American competitor F-22 “Raptor”, but lost in the undercover games

The lack of demand for the latest developments, ahead of their time, always evokes a certain feeling of regret and dissatisfaction. But it becomes extremely offensive when it is connected with the advanced domestic development of defense significance, which 15 was brought to the current full-scale sample years ago, in no way inferior to the foreign analog, but was not implemented for some unknown reason. And the result was a lag from a likely adversary and very significant material and moral costs.

In this case, we are talking about a prototype of a multifunctional front-line fighter of the 5-generation MiG 1.44 (project MFI). After two real flights at the beginning of 1999, according to other sources, the secret aircraft 2000, became an exhibit of long-term storage at the Flight Research Institute (LII). Gromov, and the promising project was closed. After years of neglect, the MFI was openly exposed for a wide view at the MAKS-2015 Moscow Aerospace Show, which aroused some interest in the MiG 1.44. What was this unique aircraft, which on 15 was years ahead of the X-NUMX-generation T-5 fighter created today?

History create

Prospective 5 generation fighters began to be created in the 70s of the last century in the USA and the USSR. We have work on such an aircraft for the Air Force and Air Defense began in the year 1979 under the program and 90 ("1990-fighter" s). In 1981, the Central Aero-Hydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) issued recommendations on which the OKB Design Bureau began working in 1983. A.I. Mikoyan. To this end, the “Integrated Target Program” was developed, which provided for a combination of work on the aircraft, power plant, avionics and weapons in accordance with the tactical and technical requirements of the Air Force and Air Defense. In 1987 and 1991, the avant-project and the draft design with the aircraft model, respectively, under the index of the MFI, a multi-purpose front-line fighter, were protected. At its base, it was planned to develop variants of a reconnaissance aircraft, a ship-based fighter and other modifications.

According to the project, the MFI should have super-maneuverability, fly at supersonic speed without afterburner, be hardly noticeable in the radar and infrared ranges, have a different architecture of on-board radioelectronic equipment (EIR) with a high degree of integration of all its systems and have improved take-off and landing characteristics compared to the existing ones by samples.

Difficulties in creating a promising aircraft began after the inclusion of the MAPO MiG in the 1999 in the Sukhoi Design Bureau and the transfer of work on the new project to the latter. The rationale for this was the allegedly high price of MFIs and the approval of MA. Pogosyan, head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, about the superiority of their C-37 project over the IFIs.

Despite the official cessation of work on IFIs, according to some reports, in 1999, February 29 of the same or 2000, the first prototype took off. However, Pogosyan’s lack of interest in MFIs, which already had a high level of readiness for launching in mass production, and most importantly, the struggle for state funding for “their” company and its S-37 project, with obvious failures with it, led to the closure of the MFI project. And in 2002, a government decree was issued on the creation of a promising front-line aviation complex aviation (PAK FA) T-50, which finally and simultaneously “buried” both MFI and S-37.

Thus, a really flying promising aircraft with a high probability of adopting and launching into a series that met the requirements and in some cases surpassed the American counterpart, for reasons that were incomprehensible at first glance and quite understandable for specialists, was removed "on the shelf". And this is despite the fact that in the USA, work on the 5 generation fighter F-22 Raptor (Predator) continued and in 2001, it was adopted.

Workers in the final assembly shop at the enterprise of JSC RAC MiG. Photo: Mikhail Voskresensky / RIA News
Purpose and main characteristics of the MiG 1.44

The MiG 1.44 (IFI) is a pilot prototype of a multi-purpose front-line fighter (MiG-35 if adopted). The first flight, according to various sources, made February 29 1999 or 2000. For some characteristics surpassed the American fighter F-22 Raptor. The low-visibility was achieved by a special radio-absorbing coating and a special design of the vertical tail fin keels. One flight copy was created, and four more in varying degrees of readiness were at the Sokol aircraft factory.

The main features of the 1.44 MiG: duck design, high aerodynamic quality delta wing, variable thrust vectoring engines (planned to be installed), flying at supersonic speed without afterburner, radio absorbing coating, placing all or most of the weapons inside the aircraft fuselage, extensive use of alloys and composite materials, an air refueling system, two adjustable air intakes.

The length, height and wingspan of the aircraft - 17,3 x 4,73 x 11,99 m. Crew - 1 people. The take-off mass of the empty aircraft is 23,5 (18) t. Two turbojet engines with thrust vectoring type AL-41F were supposed to provide flight at height (at the ground) at speeds up to 3180 (1500) km / h. The practical range (range, according to other data) was 4000 – 4500 km, and the practical ceiling was 20 km. Effective dispersion area (ESR) - less than 0,3 sq. m

Standard weapons - 30-mm built-in gun GSH-30. A combat load of up to 12 tons could be placed on 12 internal and external 8 points of suspension, according to other data, only inside the aircraft. To hit targets, the MiG 1.44 could use: air-guided missiles P-73 and P-77, ground-based X-29, X-31, X-41, X-55, X-61 and high-precision aerial bombs KAB-500 and ODAB- 500.

According to some information, on the basis of the MiG 1.44 at the beginning of the 1990-ies a lightweight fighter with one engine was created with the same aerodynamic configuration.

Postscript

As can be seen from the above, the closure of the MFI project has become a kind of deep “moral wound” for our aviation, which has resulted in significant financial losses and more than the 15-year lag of Russia in equipping our Air Force with a 5 fighter. According to the current commander-in-chief of the Russian Aerospace Forces, Lieutenant-General Viktor Bondarev, serial deliveries of the T-50 fighter will begin in the 2016 year. To justify the situation with the creation of the Russian 5 fighter generation, the media have repeatedly reported almost deliberately delaying the development of the T-50 design bureau for the Sukhoi design bureau. This was due to the desire to take into account the shortcomings that are identified during the practical flights of the Raptor. But if we approach this more strictly, then the current situation cannot be explained otherwise than with the words “good mine in a bad game”.

In order not to drive the reader into black melancholy, it should be noted that works with the Russian 5 generation fighter of the T-50 generation are going quite fast and, most importantly, the aircraft already today shows high efficiency. And do not detract from the merits of its creators. But the lag exists, as well as those who doubt its superiority over the 1.44 MiG. At one time, the former chief of armament of the Russian army, Colonel-General Anatoly Sitnov, believed that the T-50 fighter did not have the potential that had been incorporated into the MiG version of the 5 fighter.

According to many aviation specialists, the work of both renowned design bureaus on an equal basis was a blessing and was in favor of our aviation. This practice should continue today. For healthy competition never stood in the way of progress, but, on the contrary, only stimulated it. The fact that all is not lost is indicated by the reports about the intention of the Migovans, which appeared in August 2015 of the year, to resume work on a light perspective fighter. Aviation experts believe that the basis of this work will be developments in the IFI project. If so, then I would very much like to wish them, as the sailors say, "seven feet under the keel."

Comments

[BMW]

I'm certainly not special in aviation, but the trend is obvious. Corporate interests in our country have become higher than the interests of the state and national security. The merger of different design bureau under the roof of the UAC all the same went to the detriment. They are money and money in Africa. Management in the trash.

[corporal]

Quote: bmw

Corporate interests in our country have become higher than the interests of the state and national security.

You might think in other countries, vice versa
It's just that their corporations move their horns faster, because there are a lot of them. And everyone is trying to snatch a piece of the state order.

[BMW]

Quote: Corporal

You might think in other countries, vice versa

Why blindly follow them. They have their own established traditions and approach to lobbying.

Quote: Corporal

It's just that their corporations move their horns faster, because there are a lot of them.

But we have one, "to move the horn" faster, she is clearly not going to. If scabies goes in the direction of the state defense order, because press, then the civil aviation is a complete stagnation and decline. The Superjet is not an example, but an exception. Let's see what happens with the MC. Ilyushin, even in difficult times, at the very least, itched himself, and now there is silence.
Maybe I'm wrong, explain if not difficult.

[adept666]

then civil aviation is in complete stagnation and decline. Superjet is not an example, but an exception. Let's see what happens with MS. Ilyushin, even in difficult times, at the very least, but itched, and now silence. Maybe I'm wrong, explain if not difficult.

And what to explain? The collapse of the USSR completely killed civil aviation in the Russian Federation. If the military commander of the USSR tried by all means to compete with counterparts from abroad, because she met them in a real battle (and often won), then the civilian existed in greenhouse conditions, you won’t struggle for efficiency / environmental friendliness / comfort or optimize production and technological effectiveness, but I don’t say anything about saving costs (a rotor in Ukraine, a compressor in the Russian Federation, electronics in Belarus, they put it all together in Uzbekistan), where is it really worth saving? Even what was delivered abroad and even what money (and often fraternal help) really did not take into account the cost of the product and the price was molded from a flashlight. After the collapse of the union, it turned out that civilian aircraft at once became international, duties and customs appeared (which, taking into account production costs and distances, increased the price for units), add the fact that the production of parts has become international, but the rotor is made in Ukraine and nuts to it in the Russian Federation, metal and alloy alloys in Kazakhstan, add all this and calculate the cost of production. And then the classic of the genre: we entered the market (already shared by the capitalists) with an unrealistically expensive product that is absolutely not competitive in its performance characteristics. And if the military initially competitive was able to bite part of the market, and then it was not just that, then the citizen with such a start simply had no chance. Yes, and now notice the citizen is mainly driven by military men, because they have modern technology and money ...

[Cap.Morgan]

The scatter of enterprises was intended to strengthen the ranks of the working class of the outskirts. Only it turned out crookedly. They will build an aircraft factory somewhere in Georgia, and then workers are brought from Russia.

[BMW]

Quote: adept666

then a citizen with such a start simply had no chance

I decided to finish you off. Who interfered with a military commissar and a citizen, and not merged into one bucket? Why was Ilshin trying to develop, was strangled? Who stopped to drain specialists on the civilian there? Indeed, at the time of the creation of the KLA, there was already free money in the country, what prevented the citizen from financing? In my opinion, everything is simple. They lobbied the interests of the West, deliberately strangling the citizen. Apparently Poghosyan also had a hand in this, but he cannot be blamed for this. But the country's leadership made a big miscalculation. Knowingly or stupidly, we probably won't know this already.

[FID]

Quote: bmw

Knowingly or stupidly, we probably won't know this already.

Most likely, this is my personal opinion, but, I emphasize, most likely - CONSCIOUSLY. It is worth remembering the kayak - "we will buy ..."

[adept666]

I decided to finish you off.

Go ahead, I'm tenacious

Who interfered with a military commissar and a citizen, and not merged into one bucket?

Life circumstances, without this, absolutely nothing would have happened. The same dry ones already had new design tools, modern production technologies. Again, the brand is already known abroad

Why was Ilshin trying to develop, was strangled?

Yes, no one deliberately strangled him, they simply didn’t support him on the basis that it was practically impossible to make a rival to Boeing and Airbus on those technological capabilities, nobody would let us into the market just like that, and the above-mentioned companies pay bribes in tenders 10 times more than the cost of the whole design bureau of Ilyushin ... We decided to do it more cunningly, not to get into the market with ready-made machines, but to get into cooperation, now we are making titanium racks and other elements for the Boeing, we are taking part in the design of the new casing, with the airbus too then there is a joint (I will not say, because I don’t remember exactly) we do it. Superjet in wide cooperation made. He has a lot of foreign parts from leading manufacturers, this is a plus for potential buyers because the service is cheaper, easier (supply logistics worked out to the smallest detail) and fewer problems with certification. It is not enough to make an airplane, it is necessary to provide it with the proper level of service, branches in different parts of the world, so as not to wait for spare parts for half a year, and within a week at most two issues were resolved.

what prevented the citizen from financing?

Investments should be repelled with interest, and our citizen at the time of the collapse of the union would simply have absorbed them without return.

They lobbied the interests of the West, deliberately strangling the citizen.

Perhaps there were some destructive elements, but I do not think that everything is so gloomy, there are quite objective reasons about which I wrote above.

[mav1971]

Quote: bmw

Quote: adept666

then a citizen with such a start simply had no chance

I decided to finish you off. Who interfered with a military commissar and a citizen, and not merged into one bucket? Why was Ilshin trying to develop, was strangled? Who stopped to drain specialists on the civilian there? Indeed, at the time of the creation of the KLA, there was already free money in the country, what prevented the citizen from financing? In my opinion, everything is simple. They lobbied the interests of the West, deliberately strangling the citizen. Apparently Poghosyan also had a hand in this, but he cannot be blamed for this. But the country's leadership made a big miscalculation. Knowingly or stupidly, we probably won't know this already.

And let me tell you.
we have one such very unpleasant billionaire.
Deripaska is called.
He bought an aluminum factory. not weak.
And he wanted to turn this aluminum into airplanes.
And he bought the Samara Aviation Plant.
Rather, the remains of it.
I really wanted to restore.
He invested money and was ready to really completely equip the plant.
Honestly.
But could not.
Do you know why?
And I will answer.
No workers were found.
Simply, no one wanted to work in a factory at the beginning of the 2000's in Samara.
That's it.
I know the situation from the inside.

For the 90s - all the specialists "ran out".
Create new ones - at least 15 years, and then on condition of salaries of 1000 dollars (50-60 thousand rubles in modern realities) for a salary in any working specialty + bonuses. For only then "heel" will cease to be a dirty word and people will go there to study.

[Alexy]

I don’t know why Deripaska is unpleasant to you. Probably the billionaire. However, he had good ideas and undertakings. Unfortunately, all his undertakings were ruined. It’s hard to overcome a bureaucratic machine. It has been repeatedly said that it is necessary to create conditions for business, and you will not go far on bare enthusiasm. That money is flowing offshore abroad. And our so-called oligarchs are a consequence, and not the reason for the mess that exists to this day in public administration. We need deep reforms of the entire system, otherwise we will stagnate and not what oil prices will not help.

[voffchik7691]

Well, crystal clear, with high thoughts. It is a pity that the bureaucrats still prevent him from doing good deeds!
But we have one more "saint" - Prokhorov. And what gorgeous ideas he had!
About "Yo" mobile I am silent. And here's another: for example, a 60 hour work week !!!

[voffchik7691]

"I really wanted to restore.
He invested money and was ready to really completely equip the plant.
Honestly."

I don’t know how in Samara, but in Yaroslavl, this "honest" billionaire owns the Motor Plant, the plant of fuel and diesel equipment. Over the past 7 years, 50% of the staff were laid off on the motor, despite the fact that they wanted to work at the plant.
The fuel equipment plant was demolished and elite high-rise buildings are being built in its place.
In 2008, the state gave him $ 4 billion to pay off debts. With the condition - do not cut staff. He paid off his debts and began a reduction after a couple of months. The state did not ask him to return the money.

[samara-58]

Do not fence with nonsense ... You have to be in the subject (about "Aviakor")!

[Vadivak]

Quote: author

In order not to drive the reader into black melancholy, it should be noted that work with the Russian fifth-generation fighter T-5 is fast enough and, most importantly, the plane already today shows high efficiency. And one should not belittle the merits of its creators. But the backlog exists, like those who doubt its superiority over MiG 50.

There is an opinion that the J-20 is the mighty dragon, this is the same one handed over to the MFI brothers, this can be judged by the famous photo of Yang Wei (his "dad") the picture is spoiled by one typically Chinese face in the background

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Vadivak

There is an opinion that the J-20 is the one that is a mighty dragon, it's still the same that was passed to the IFI brothers

So they write about it almost openly. The hunfuz only have problems with dviglom and have not been solved to this day - "the resource is not in the red army"! If memory serves - only 1000 hours.

[dumkopff]

Kalash is also similar to the StG-44. Outwardly, a little. So what? Kalashnikov licked everything from the Germans?

[AUL]

The first flight, according to various sources, made on February 29, 1999 or 2000.
He smiled ... But what, in 1999, the calendar was February 29th?

[avt]

Quote: Vadivak

There is an opinion that the J-20 is the one that is a mighty dragon, it's still the same that was passed to the IFI brothers

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

So they write about it almost openly.

Who? What hangover is that? Just because PGO, well, like, front wings " Look and find an Israeli "Lavi", there was no MFI in the project at all. Only the air intake is not from the F-16, but a bloated half from the MiG-23

[aleks 62 next]

..... There is an opinion that the J-20 is the one that the mighty dragon is, it’s still the same passed on to the IFI brothers ....

.... External resemblance does not mean anything yet ......

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Corporal

You might think in other countries, vice versa

In Other countries, two aircraft do not simultaneously.
In the USA, for example, two companies fought for the right to make a 5th generation fighter, both presented their prototypes and one was chosen.

[Akuzenka]

Let them eat each other. We must be as smart as it was. Several design bureaus really competing with each other in TECHNOLOGY, and not bickering for "loot".

[Pilat2009]

Quote: AKuzenka

We should have the mind, as it was

According to the mind, it should be the best. R&D also costs money, as does the production of various engines and components. If the MIG were a private office and carried out development at its own expense, for God's sake, it would be unprofitable to develop two aircraft with unprincipled characteristics. Yes aggregates excess hemorrhage

[avia1991]

Quote: AKuzenka

We must be as smart as it was. Several design bureaus really competing with each other ON TECHNOLOGY, and not bickering for "loot"

This is WHEN it was with us ??? Under King Peas? Dear, do you seriously think that under the USSR there was no "bickering for the loot" ??!

[GSH-18]

MiG 1.44 MFI: 5-generation fighter 2000 of the year

There was a whole broadcast about him. I did not go through the performance characteristics and the impossibility of further modernization, and a bunch of other reasons. Accordingly, the series did not go.

[GSH-18]

The fifth-generation multifunction fighter MiG 1.44 MFI was not inferior in its characteristics to the American competitor F-22 Raptor

What?? Author, did you smoke something there?
You don’t even have to be a major specialist here. In one case, the old philosophy and production technology of the 80s, and in the other, a really new approach. The F-22 is the first fifth-generation aircraft in the world.

[adept666]

Lord, how tired of these tears on the MFI ... A ready-made plane ... what was there besides the glider ready? - Nothing! Just a glider built using the MiG-29 technologies, the latest modification at that time. It is ridiculous to read about "the high level of readiness of MFIs, which could already be put into mass production." AFAR radar station - no, there was no production of modern electronic filling at that time, no spent engines, no nozzles with OVT (for the AL-41 dope machine), no production (especially serial!) RPMs of the required level of strength and characteristics - no. There was no other accompanying equipment such as an oxygen generator. It is not entirely clear if, in principle, it has an in-fuselage arrangement of the BC with such an arrangement of engines and adjustable air intakes. So it turns out that they made the MiG-31 a super-mannered, and not a 5th generation fighter. As for Poghosyan, they say that he was the villain who ruined a super plane because of his ugly duckling with a KOS. Only few people mention at the same time that the S-37 was built with the widespread use of composites, that for the production of its airframe, a special production of one-piece large-knot fuselage parts of complex shapes was established, and it was this backlog that made it possible to work on PAKFA. Poghosyan did the main thing - he created the PRODUCTION TECHNOLOGY of the necessary components for the 5th generation fighter, and now he is creating a board based on these technologies! And on the basis of technologies for creating machines of the 4th generation (which was demonstrated in the IFI), the board of the fifth generation cannot be built, no matter how much one wants to.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: adept666

It is not entirely clear if he has, in principle, an inside fuselage arrangement of the ammunition with such an arrangement of engines and adjustable air intakes.

But where to put it there? 99% no. And if you look at the "face of the face", we understand that there is no stealth either.

[adept666]

But where to put it there? 99% no. And if you look at the "face of the face", we understand that there is no stealth either.

Below I wrote about this ...

In fact, the fuselage placement, even with such a scheme, is possible between the engines and the first section of the air intakes (then they go around the top), the question remains in volume)))

и

Now is the time of silent killers, and there are serious problems with the EPR on this board (including because of PGO).

[GSH-18]

Quote: adept666

Now is the time of silent killers, and there are serious problems with the EPR on this board (including because of PGO).

That's right. This device obviously does not pull on the 5th generation.
Yes, and all the bombs on the outside have to carry.

[dyksi]

In general, you look very narrowly at the fighter. For example, the stealthy Raptor in the skies of Syria was accompanied by a couple of dozen fourth-generation fighters, whose RCS is equal to a whole "city" in the air. The 1.44 fighter could carry the RB-DB (T-50 no, they just don't climb into the hatch). The T-50 has no afterburning supersound, problems with strength and thrust-weight ratio, and you call this the fifth generation? Ultimately, take the most important thing, cost-effectiveness, the cost of the T-50 will soon catch up with the cost of the Raptor, and this despite the fact that, unlike the Raptor, it has not confirmed practically any of its characteristics, then on our website laid out, this is not the performance characteristics of a real fighter, but the requirement of the military for a promising fighter. In general, you should look at the car as an ea combat unit, and not as something amorphous and PR. In fact, the MFI surpasses the T-50 both in terms of thrust-weight ratio (AL-41 thrust, unlike the T-50, is enough for it) and in armament. I’ll also tell you that there is no need to look for the full fifth generation in the IFI, the fighter must reach speeds of up to 3200 km. per hour, with such speeds, materials widely used in the fifth generation cannot be used on it; he has a different ideology. Before you write anything, you should at least familiarize yourself with the material. In general, the fourth generation at the moment is an order of magnitude more effective than the fifth, and as for the EPR, then the same "Rafal" it is on the drum, he knocks down the "Raptor" and is recognized as one of the best fighters in the world and surpasses both Western and our fighters in terms of performance characteristics and in terms of combat radius and armament, and as with a fighter, few can compare with it. Much is written about the fifth generation, it simply does not exist in nature and about the EPR, too, only the Lord God is invisible, everything else is very visible and shot accordingly. Just so that there is no speculation on this topic, it is necessary to conduct tenders so that the machines actually show that they are the best, and not in the songs of Mr. Rogozin. At our place, the Commander-in-Chief first writes that the T-50 does not show what was expected of him, after a couple of weeks, he already writes that the car is super, confirmed all the characteristics and it needs to be put on the conveyor urgently, although even such an amateur as I know, that the engines of the second stage can’t even be seen on the horizon, and therefore the car has big problems with thrust-to-weight ratio (with afterburner supersonic sound too), with strength characteristics, they are solved, but the car becomes even heavier, and there are not so little problems with excess weight, problems with armaments are also not small, and if the RVV DB does not crawl into his belly, then the question will arise about his need for the Air Force. Mikoyan has just colossal experience in creating fighters, and even the same ideology of air combat Sukhovtsy borrowed from the MiG Design Bureau, and if you look into the fighters, you will also be surprised, Starting from airborne radars, modern OLSs and so on, these are the developments of the MiG Design Bureau, just one Comrade, using his official position, at one time simply took them away and that's it (I'm talking about Poghosyan), he did the same in civil aviation, took all the developments of the Tupolev and Ilyushin design bureaus, and the flagships themselves were destroyed.

[adept666]

look very narrowly

And how else to look at a highly specialized car?

The Raptor was accompanied

If there is an air battle, they are cheap bait, he is a hunter.

could carry RVV DB

Why does he need rockets that fly 300 km in the hatch? This is an extremely long-range battle, and then for large goals like AWACS, in this case, you can take rockets under the wing.

did not confirm

Did Poghosyan himself tell you a secret?

T-50 doesn't

Yes, yes, the crafts of the Migovites 15 years ago are a cut above him and without exception confirmed

In fact, the IFI is superior to the T-50 in terms of thrust ratio.

They have different AL-41s.

the fighter must reach speeds of up to 3200 km. in hour

And what is not 100500?

his ideology is different.

The fact of the matter is that the ideology of IFIs is from about the 80s, which you yourself understand is not comme il faut.

In general, the fourth generation at the moment, an order of magnitude more effective than the fifth

Duc fifth almost no one and no, but the United States, how do you rate it? By eye?

"Rafal" it is on the drum

Where and when did he bring it down? What nonsense are you talking about? If you are talking about some exercises, then firstly the French said that they had an advantage in maneuverable combat, and in the distant raptor I ate them, which is natural for a light side.

and about the EPR too ... everything else is very visible and, accordingly, shot

Those. it makes no difference that you have 0,5 sq. m., what is 15? It wouldn’t hurt you to pull up radio physics ...

the question will be about his need for the Air Force

Well, what a horror. Who are you going to shoot down with your RVV database? When even launching the RVV-SD to its maximum range is a lottery. You should write fiction.

Mikoyan just has tremendous experience in creating fighter jets

However, the Su-27 (and derivatives) bought and are buying more (even before joining the UAC)

just one friend

from the bastard, what an arrogant, captured all of Middle-earth

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

In fact, the MFI surpasses the T-50 in terms of thrust-weight ratio. They have different AL-41s.

Interesting: Are you an adherent of what teaching? The one whose number you use in your nickname?
After reading your objections, I come to only one conclusion: you are engaged in verbiage, and narcissism, so-and-so, sir We set ourselves the task not to find out the Truth, but to "butcher the insolent person who dared to object, to smithereens!" And this, you see, is the level of "street showdowns" like "let me have a smoke."

Mikoyan just has tremendous experience in creating fighter jets

It is a fact. You can try to prove the opposite - but then you will have to go against the Truth.

his ideology is different.

Quote: adept666

The fact of the matter is that the ideology of IFIs is from about the 80s, which you yourself understand is not comme il faut.

Firstly, the "ideology" was laid down in the military requirements presented; these are not characteristics "taken from the ceiling".
Secondly, if you nevertheless READ the article carefully, it was said there:

We began work on such an aircraft for the Air Force and Air Defense in 1979 under the I-90 program (“fighter of the 1990s”). In 1981, the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) issued recommendations on which in 1983 the Design Bureau named after A.I. Mikoyan.

which means that the "ideology" of the 5th generation fighters is indeed "from the 80s." And what about the Americans from other years? And note - we are talking about the Mikoyan Design Bureau, not Sukhoi! Whose PAK FA activity is manifested at the beginning of the XNUMXs, when

Difficulties in creating a promising aircraft began after the inclusion in 1999 of MAPO MiG as part of the Sukhoi Design Bureau and the transfer to the latter of work on a new project.

Let's leave this on Poghosyan's conscience - everyone survived as best he could, and Poghosyan himself thought not only about himself, but also about the team for which he was responsible. "Market economy" ... mother .. But precisely because of your

Quote: adept666

from the bastard, what an arrogant, captured all of Middle-earth

here is completely inappropriate.
Because of the undercover games, more than one promising aircraft has sunk into oblivion. You can recall, at least, the "strategist" M-50 KB Myasishchev. Tupolev, fond of the authorities, pressed "all levers", and his brainchild Tu-22 went to the Air Force. From which the pilots spat for many years, until the M2 modification appeared, which left fewer widows in the bomber regiments.
I think Ivan (dyksy) I wanted to say that you can’t be so irresponsible about serious projects - especially in the development of weapons. And if we have a market, then arrange the competition of READY SAMPLES! And not concepts that exist only on paper. Maybe we can only benefit from this?

[adept666]

Are you an adherent of what teaching?

Automated systems and software and computer systems, and about the number: not the one wears the seal of the beast who has it on his forehead, but the one who has it in his heart and soul (if you studied the Bible you will understand what I mean).

You are engaged in verbiage, and narcissism

I only own those weapons that the gods gave me a gift - logic, programmer I

They set themselves the task of not finding out the Truth

What other truth do you need? Just visually compare the two products, these are:

http://avia.pro/sites/default/files/pictures/katastrofi2/291213_mig_1-44b.jpg

and here it is

http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2013-09/thumbs/1379127760_o4-1.jpg

and honestly tell yourself which one is more technically and technologically more difficult it will be the answer to you why they chose dry for PAKFA.

This is a fact.

The dry experience is no less, and as for heavy machines, then more.

First, the "ideology"

Yeah, and by the time the IFIs took off, they already realized that they were wrong.

indeed, "from the 80s". And what about the Americans from other years?

Do you see what the problem with the Americans was the 80s were different, they in the 80s already developed the concept of a network of centric wars and developed the theory of global lightning strike, and we all played in Chapaev, is that more clear or deploy?

And if we have a market, then arrange the competition of READY SAMPLES!

Yes, there was this competition and the MFI lost it. Nobody would listen to Pogosyan if his arguments were not more weighty than those of the Migovites. It’s just that the S-37 is much more technologically advanced than 1.44, it already provided for the very concept of distributed control of the battlefield, smart skinning, composites, EMFs, ESR issues were better developed, options were developed with CBS and with a classic trapezoidal wing, a single-engine light version, but you and then you can fool yourself with a search for a black cat in a dark room in the hope that she is there.

And not concepts that exist only on paper.

The T-50 is in the air and is being tested, half of what worked out on the S-37 stands as a base on the Su-35S, what other concepts are needed?

[aviator65]

Quote: adept666

It’s just that the S-37 is much more technologically advanced than 1.44, it already contained the very concept of distributed control of the battlefield, smart casing, composites,

Well yes. One wing is worth it!

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

T-50 is in the air and is being tested,

The prototype MiG-1.44 also flew, really, and .. to put it mildly - somewhat earlier than Drying. Let me remind you of some facts:

The development of the aircraft began at the Design Bureau named after P.O. Sukhoi in the late 1990s. The competition of projects under the PAK FA program, announced in April-May 2001, was won in 2002 by the T-50 fighter project.

The prototype T-50-1 made its first flight on January 29, 2010 at the Dzemgi airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The program of the first phase of the PAK FA tests began on April 29, 2010 at the LII base in Zhukovsky (Moscow Region)

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-254.html
But this is not even the point: when a decision is made in favor of a specific design bureau, the rest "does not shine" from the word AT ALL, be they a hundred times better! Since then, nothing has changed: decisions are made not objectively, but on the basis of the personal sympathies (interest) of the "solvers".
In general, considering WHAT TIME the Mikoyanites managed to create not just a project - a flying prototype! - you should take off your hat in front of them. And in connection with this, in particular, I do not really understand the arrogant and dismissive reasoning that "

Quote: adept666

Just S-37 is much more technologically advanced 1.44

You do not see the essence of the question completely, regardless of the "logical mindset": when Mikoyan had a ready prototype - Sukhoi T-50 HAS NOT EVEN IN THE DRAWINGS! Do you compare the dates?
And then, having gained access to all the documentation for 1.44, Poghosyan "kaneko" created, a few years later, a "more technological design"!
Where is your logic, sir?

[adept666]

The prototype MiG-1.44 also flew, really, and .. to put it mildly - somewhat earlier than Drying.

The S-37 first felt the skies on September 25, 1997, in the 2000s it was already flying aerobatics at closed shows, the MiG-1.44 - on February 29, 2000 a couple of taxiings and will take off in a straight line with the chassis unchecked. And they made their dry plan on the initiative taking money from their export! And the MIGs did MFIs at the request of the Ministry of Defense and received loot for development!

"does not shine" from the word AT ALL

So what? They lost the competition, what should they shine on?

IN WHICH

And what was dry for some other time? And they managed to make a plane with more complex fuselage geometries (only one company in the world had done this before) and even ahead of competitors in all stages

You do not see the essence of the question at all, regardless of the "logical mindset": when Mikoyan had a ready-made prototype - the Sukhoi T-50 WAS NOT EVEN IN THE DRAWINGS!

The dry one had a well-flying C-37, there were new innovative technologies for building the fuselage, they are the first of our aviators who widely used CAD systems. The C-37 versions with a more classic trapezoidal wing (one of which is now on the T-50) of one and twin-engine schemes were worked out before the mock-up stage (purge and discharge).

Do you compare the dates?

Once again, for the particularly stubborn: neither the S-37 nor the MiG-1.44 in 2000 met the requirements of the Moscow Region for the 5th generation aircraft, therefore they were officially considered as a competition of ideas, technologies and capabilities. The closest it was to the S-37, so the dry won.

And then, having access to all the documentation for 1.44

Yes, there is nothing in the T-50 from the MiG-1.44 from the word ABSOLUTELY (well, at least give one example if you really insist), what kind of nonsense? Here from the S-37 there are many.

Where is your logic, sir? belay

In its rightful place - in my head, and yours seems to have settled in another place because there is some kind of nonsense in the comments.

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

The closest it was to the S-37, so the dry won.

"Once again": The S-37 was NOT designed as a 5th generation fighter. And these are NOT MY thoughts - this is the definition of KB Sukhoi. Yes - an experimental aircraft for technology testing. Well done, what they did - I'm not against the Sukhoi Design Bureau, as such! I am against disdain for the work of other scientists and designers! Which is more often, by the way (attitude), are shown by those who themselves could accomplish little in life .. do not take it upon yourself, they do not talk about those present (in general, I don’t think of you like that, frankly - but in your desire to prove your point of view, you seem to be ready to grab the bat )
To close the subject, let's remember one thing: The Raptor went into operation in 2001. Our 5th generation is still "learning to fly" .. In my opinion, this is the main thing, and this tells us once again that our government ALL NEEDS TO BE DONE IN TIME.

[adept666]

Yes - an experimental aircraft for testing technologies.

So it became already after the requirements for 5-ke at the Moscow Region changed.

I am against neglect of the work of other scientists and designers!

And I'm against the sweeping praise of mediocre things.

but in your quest to prove your point you seem to be ready to grab onto the bat

I do not have other methods

The Raptor was commissioned in 2001. Our 5th generation is still "learning to fly" ..

Until then, our industry was not corny able to produce the entire range of necessary technologies for the 5th generation machine.

EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE DONE ON TIME.

Yes, everything is fine with time, the F-22 took a long run-in / fixed / finished, as a result, was discontinued without even releasing a series of 200 cars, the F-35 is a weak competitor for the T-50, so you can not rush much with PAKFA, but calmly do everything because he has no competitors yet.

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

So it became already after the requirements for 5-ke at the Moscow Region changed.

So he was originally. You probably read the story of Sukhoi Design Bureau? They themselves talk about it.
At the time of the creation of the S-37, the Ministry of Defense could not have any requirements for the "five" - ​​it simply had no money for anything!

Quote: adept666

Until then, our industry was not corny able to produce the entire range of necessary technologies for the 5th generation machine.

That's it: we come to the production price. That is, the ideas are brilliant! But we cannot implement them .. and we have to defend ourselves with something. But what is available for production does not suit us! I would like, you know, something "abruptly" .. AND NOT MOZHETSTSZA .

Quote: adept666

everything is fine over time, the F-22 has been running in for a long time / fixed / brought up as a result is discontinued

And in the case of the timely creation of the 5th generation, the designers today would have already taken up generation number 6 - and the Americans with a tongue behind their back would try to catch up with us!
It turns out that we "generously" slowed down at a distance, giving the opponent time to breathe? Is it too "humane"?

[adept666]

So he was originally. You probably read the story of Sukhoi Design Bureau? They themselves talk about it.

Read, read))) It is understandable that the C-37 machine became experimental (at the time of construction) due to the fact that no one needed either the Air Force or the Navy any more. The first prayed for the MiG-1.42 / 44, the second "ran out" of aircraft carriers. Only S-37-1 (they usually forget to write one, and this is important ) - this is a flying S-32, which was planned in the late 80s serial (or rather, as the Su-27KM) for the fleet. However, we turn on the brains and abstract from all the words of the same former chief designer of the S-32 Simonov about the S-37 and carefully look at the car and ask ourselves a couple of questions from the category: why the machine for working out technologies: 1 operating OLS? 2: satellite station behind the cockpit lantern? 3: rear hemisphere surveillance radar in the right keel beam? Further, if you say it was not planned as a fifth-generation aircraft, what kind of generation should it be if the C-22 theme was work on a promising aircraft to replace the Su-27 (4th generation). If it hadn’t been built as a promising side, and just for the development of technologies, you would not have paid so much attention to details, it’s expensive, unreasonable and just plain stupid. In addition to constructing new fuselage forms, all these technologies are quietly being developed on the Su-27 (both a rectangular nozzle and a new cockpit and a new OLS and a new satellite communications station, and a new radar station, etc., etc.). If he was just a technology development he would be like the X-29.

That's it: we come to the price of production. That is, the ideas are brilliant!

Not brilliant, but correct!

But we cannot realize them .. but we need to defend ourselves with something.

Already a might, and it’s not the planes that protect us, but the Strategic Missile Forces all these years.

But what is available for production does not suit us!

Su-30SM, Su-35, Su-34 are relatively new and quite competitive with almost everyone in the sky. Buying means satisfied.

And in case of timely creation of the 5th generation by us

What are you talking about? We can only now create the 5th generation. How could we create it if we did not have industry for it?

would have already taken up generation 6

It turns out that we "generously" slowed down at a distance

We try not to make mistakes like our friends with the F-22, and with the F-35 ...

[yehat]

you are trivial
The F-35 has been in operation for 2 years now, so what?
not a single combat compound so far
the F-22 was no better.
The T-50 is now mainly held back by engine development, and before that, the high cost of developing avionics was holding back
It would be as much money as the Americans would have already started mass production long ago.
and in general, I believe that we are not behind in aviation, but in chemistry and electronics

[avia1991]

And about this

Quote: adept666

You see what the problem is with the Americans, the 80s were different

sorry - it's really funny. No offense, dear: Are you a programmer? Then on the basis of what special knowledge do you argue about the manufacturability or futility of the aircraft? Moreover, you suggest evaluating the "technological complexity" in an original way:

Quote: adept666

What other truth do you need? Just visually compare the two products, these are:

I’m not a programmer - and I’ll never get into a dispute on this subject after reading several popular articles - this will not help me become a specialist.
Why "funny": technological innovations appear in developed countries often almost simultaneously. And this happens not only thanks to the actions of intelligence, but also due to the naturally identical orientation of the work of scientists and designers: we all get a close education, and think mainly in similar categories.
Therefore, the 80s of us - ordinary citizens - with SAME Americans were, of course, different. But the scientists - very similar! And the concepts visible to them then were really close. And if Mikoyan had such funding as the founders of "Raptor", and even without the "dashing 90s" - I suppose not only the Americans would "have a rest" now, but also - possibly - Poghosyan and his team.

[adept666]

I'm sorry - that's really funny. No offense, dear: Are you a programmer?

It was like in the morning

Then, on the basis of what special knowledge do you reason about the manufacturability or lack of prospects of an aircraft?

I was finishing physical education. I have experience in developing CAD systems, at one time algorithms for mat systems. modeling such a discipline as fluid and gas dynamics, took part in the development of wireless communication lines. Do you somehow think narrowly about programmers, do not everyone know if they program a calculator

But the scientists - very similar! And the concepts visible to them then were really close.

Scientists are quite possible, but managers have alas not. If THEM grasped for any innovation, then we usually slowed it down and until the Americans did not develop such a thing and introduce it and remember it, and then they started to catch up. So it was from the time of RI, take a look at how many OUR patents are in the French Patent Office, how many stolen and implemented ideas that were then sold to us.

And if Mikoyan had such a funding

He had it, unlike dry ones, but they could not produce something innovative.

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

He had it, unlike dry ones,

Maybe. Although, as far as I know, in 1994 the financing of the project was stopped, and the flight model was being completed with the help of money obtained "in all possible ways."

[avia1991]

By the way:

Quote: adept666

Scientists are quite possible, but managers have alas not. If THEM grasped for any innovation, then we usually slowed it down

I did not say a word about the managers. Actually, little has changed since then - just look at Rusnano, where Chubais is "developing" nanotechnology with might and main.
But scientists worked in approximately the same direction, developing the "ideology" born in the 80s - in fact, "Raptor" from the same place.

[adept666]

Actually, little has changed since then.

I don’t know about Chubais, but the Defense Ministry has definitely changed the inertia of thinking, modern control centers have appeared, they are focusing on communications and reconnaissance, they are developing battle control systems, Ratnik, Armata, Boomerang, Kurganets, PAKFA have appeared, tests of the robotics advanced intelligence system are ending, robots themselves appeared, the concept of their application appeared, and in the future it will all work in a single control system. An unmanned KAMAZ drives at the training ground, tank builders are working on a robot based on the T-90 tank, etc.

But scientists worked in approximately the same direction, developing the "ideology" born in the 80s - in fact, "Raptor" from the same place.

Scientists worked on what they were allowed to work on, and THEM scientists were allowed and even encouraged, and OUR people were most often banned and punished for such things.

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

OUR people were most often banned and punished for this.

I can’t resist asking: you, sorry, how do you know about this? Themselves "suffered", or what? Judging by the stories of others is not always a rewarding thing, agree?
Some "scientists" do not really interfere with sometimes slowing down - otherwise you can go completely "in the wrong place"

[adept666]

You, sorry, how do you know about this?

Wait, you yourself said that scientists think almost the same way, almost everyone has the same level, then why did we have such a difference with the USA (+ shobla) in the level of microelectronics, special machines, machine-tool building, robotics, metallurgy, etc. Ours could not generate this in their brains? - they could. This business is not necessary for the economy and the defense industry? - necessary. What was the catch?

Themselves "suffered", or what?

No, I touched the edge at that time.

Judging by the stories of others is not always a thankful job, agree?

If these stories are confirmed by historical facts, for example, read the book Weapons of Victory (you can say Grabin’s autobiography) why not judge?

[avia1991]

Oh by the way! Forgot to answer your question:

Quote: adept666

honestly tell yourself which one is more technically and technologically more difficult it will be the answer to you why they chose dry for PAKFA.

Honestly I can answer myself that, At first, just by looking at the photo, I can say a lot about the plane. But at the same time, the assessment of the level of technical excellence will be EXTREMELY conditional .. and most likely based on the "like-dislike" principle. If this, in your opinion, is enough, then your attitude to the MiG is also understandable.
And secondly, I can say that I DO NOT KNOW WHY REASON the commission chose Sukhoi as the basic concept - given that at that time it was just a SKETCH DESIGN, while Mikoyan had a product ready for flight testing. Once again: why it was impossible to work out both versions simultaneously? After all, the Su-27 and MiG-29 got along! Although, perhaps, everything is much simpler: the layout 1.44 resembles the F-16. It may well be that someone did not like it.

[adept666]

But at the same time, the assessment of the level of technical excellence will be EXTREMELY conditional .. and most likely based on the "like-dislike" principle.

And you think you can say a lot?

If this, in your opinion, is enough

Inspection with addiction is more than enough to understand which of the products has a higher culture and complexity of production, which in turn indicates the capabilities of manufacturers.

I DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE REASON The Commission chose as the basic concept of Sukhoi - given that at that time it was just a SKETCH DESIGN,

I have already answered this question more than once, but either you don’t see, or you don’t want to see. Sukhoi had flown for almost 3 years already an aircraft with a CBS, which, from the point of view of stealth and production technologies, was out of competition in the domestic market, there were its variants with a classic wing worked out and one of these wing variants is on the T-50.

while Mikoyan had a product ready for flight tests

It was, but did not meet the trends of the times, and besides that, poorly and poorly, there was nothing more to start flying out of equipment.

After all, the Su-27 and MiG-29 got along!

We got along while we had money. And as they were no longer needed to be selected and needed a heavy brot, as it is more universal.

Although, perhaps, everything is much simpler: the layout 1.44 resembles the F-16.

Thanks, laughed heartily, what other intriguing versions will be?

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

And you think you can say a lot?

I can. I do not see the need.
We are talking about different things:
I am about the fact that there is no need to find fault with the development, which has made a significant contribution to the creation of the modern PAK FA. If you seriously think that the developments of the Mikoyan design bureau are "not worth a damn", and none of them were used in the T-50, then you are as naive as a child. It doesn't seem like
You say, in short, that "Sukhoi Design Bureau is just superb, and the rest is bullshit." Do you think this can be considered an objective attitude? To brush aside the MiG-29, the legendary MiG-21 - and much more! Fuck the plane who was not even given the opportunity to prove his worth - this is easier than steamed turnip: think up what you want, as arguments - there’s nothing to refute anyway!
As for the S-37, the Sukhovites themselves, as far as I know, have never considered this aircraft as a candidate for mass production. People's enthusiasm for CBS is most often based on the unusual configuration. As for the practical application - in aviation it does not happen that there are all "pluses" and no "minuses". And KOS has as many minuses as pluses.
Your admiration for the complexity of the T-50 technologies, compared to 1.44, does not take into account the cost of these technologies, and the need for gigantic costs for re-equipment and modernization of aircraft plants to use these technologies. And the "fish" turns out to be golden, in the literal sense.
I would like to hope that an expensive aircraft will justify its cost with its effectiveness .. although it would be much better if this money did not need to be spent on weapons Alas, so far these are only dreams.

Quote: adept666

Thanks, laughed heartily, what other intriguing versions will be?

Glad you figured it out and appreciated the joke ... Although .. "in every joke there is a grain of a joke": with our bureaucratic lawlessness, such a decision-making option may well be real.

[adept666]

I - that there is no need to cherish the development that has made a significant contribution to the creation of a modern PAK FA

And I tell you that there is nothing in the PAKFA from MiG-1.44 from the word at all, if you have a specific example, then give it at last, and this is not an unfounded allegation. In T-10 from MiG-29 was for there and take oh how much could.

You say, in short, that “Sukhoi Design Bureau is just superb, and the rest is bullshit.

I say, in short, Sukhoi Design Bureau was able to create, and then offer a more promising solution, and this does not at all beg the previous merits of the Migovites, but from 1.44 they flew, believe me it happens, even champions and favorites of the competition lose happen.

To scream a plane that was not even given the opportunity to prove its worth

And .. do you think you had to throw a bunch of dough on a plane that didn’t meet the time requirement? Well, apparently for fun

Fend off the MiG-29

The fact of the matter is that the process of design degradation in person, having torn everything and everyone in the PFI competition and then receiving a half from it in the form of LPFI, revealing to the world of the integral monster MiG-29 how could you create such mediocrity that is higher in the picture? If I didn’t know what design bureau these machines were designed for and they would show me and say that 1.44 is the next MiG-29 plane, I would turn it around my temple and say: BEING IT CAN’T!

Enthusiasm for CBS

My only enthusiasm for CBS is the very opportunity to create such a scheme, and even for supersonic flights, this is the level of designers, technologists and production workers.

this aircraft as a candidate for mass production.

Even as they considered and vparim wanted the Air Force first and then, when the Navy did not work out.

Your admiration for the complexity of T-50 technologies, compared to 1.44, does not take into account the price of these technologies

Advanced technologies are never cheap, but if used correctly they are repulsed many times. The SDI program did not reach even half of what was planned, but gave the amers such a range of technologies and solutions that they still live in this civilian and military commissar on this groundwork.

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

if you have a concrete example, then give it at last, and so this is nothing on the basis of unfounded allegation

! I will answer you in the same way: your words are an unfounded unfounded statement!
Which of the designers today admits that they used someone's developments, original solutions, reports of failures, the results of experiments when creating their "brilliant creation" ?! I understand one thing: how at one time Soviet scientists after the Second World War "squeezed" everything that was possible from the Germans regarding the development of nuclear weapons and jet technology - so any design bureau, having received free access to a competitor's documentation, wool it from cover to cover , raking out everything that, perhaps, the hands did not reach from themselves .. and even just to confirm / refute their own research!

Quote: adept666

in your opinion it was necessary to throw a bunch of dough on the plane,

The aircraft needed to plow flight tests - at least, check the possibility of achieving the declared characteristics. Or do you think that simply stealing all the money invested in R&D at 1.44 was more practical?

Quote: adept666

Advanced technologies are never cheap, but if used correctly they are repulsed many times

I do not mind a single word! However, at that time, the country did not have the opportunity to implement these technologies, as you yourself said, either financial or production. At the same time, the SDI program had a solid financial foundation - plus a healthy influx of "brains", incl. and from the USSR.
It’s good, in general, to reason after the fact, having the info that we have today ...

Quote: adept666

My only enthusiasm for CBS is the very possibility to create such a scheme, and even for flights on supersonic

Sukhoi Design Bureau, as far as I know, failed, ultimately, to cope with the aerodynamic jolting of supersonic sound. Well - since you were engaged in modeling aerohydrodynamic flows, you obviously know this. Or maybe there is other information? Just interesting - without second thoughts.

[adept666]

! I will answer you in the same way: your words are an unfounded unfounded statement!

Yes lan? The general aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 is duck, the T-50 is normal, the first is built without taking into account the integral layout, the second with the integration of the layout, and then all the differences in the airframe are absolutely opposite in their layout and principle of operation (whether it is the placement of engines, the design of the air intakes horizontal / vertical stabilizers, etc.). Of the equipment, too, in general, nothing can be, since almost all of it was developed after the topic of MFIs was closed.

Or do you think that simply stealing all the money invested in R&D at 1.44 was more practical?

If the machine no longer met the requirements and, according to the customer, was unsuccessful, what was the point of continuing and spending money? To check whether the Migovites were able to do what they asked of them in the 80s?

Sukhoi Design Bureau, as far as I know, failed, ultimately, to cope with the aerodynamic jolting of supersonic sound.

Failed, but the work was curtailed as they won the competition for the T-50 with the traditional wing. Two projects simply would not physically pull. Yes, and pouring money into an unnecessary Air Force / Navy aircraft no longer made sense. In general, as far as the S-37 is concerned, here is the fact that for the construction of the flight model, no models for static tests were built (and this is for KOS !!!), they were carried out on the flight model at "light" loads, and then they were calculated! If they gave money to continue the topic of CBS, then it is quite possible that the flutter on super sound could be overcome (or maybe not ).

[pilot8878]

Quote: dyksi

In general, the fourth generation at the moment, an order of magnitude more effective than the fifth

It is likely, but the whole point is to change the concept itself. When the first 4th generation cars appeared, the latest versions of the 3rd generation cars were at least as good as them. So now - the operation will begin (someday, I hope), and modernization will begin.

Quote: dyksi

T-50 has no afterburner supersonic

Not yet.

Quote: dyksi

"Rafal" on the drum, he knocks "Raptor" and is recognized as one of the best fighters in the world and surpasses both Western and our fighters in terms of their performance characteristics, both in combat radius and in armament, and as a fighter, few can compare with him.

That is, you propose to spit on the PAK FA and buy "Rafale"? Meanwhile, the striped ones will master the "raptor", find out its problems, modify, master the "lightning", modify, and we will be VERY strongly and unpleasantly surprised: "But how is it, why we do not have aircraft construction, no Air Force, and who is to blame for this ? "

[GSH-18]

I am not a supporter of suctioning a plane that is conceptually inadequate to the demands of the times and the Russian Defense Ministry. He even looks outwardly unpresentable. This is a crocodile from the 90s. I would not want our pilots to fly on this.
New and old Su cars have proven their worth. What's the point of throwing money out of what ?? It’s better to add PAK FA to the program. This car is really the 5th generation!

[tomket]

Quote: GSH-18

A plane that does not meet the requirements of the times and the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

"Typhoon" flies, and somehow it normally meets the needs of the time ...

Quote: GSH-18

He even looks outwardly unpresentable.

You can say the same thing about t-50. It seems to be an undeniable progress compared to the 4 generation aircraft, but when you look at the t-50 and the same f-35, the t-50 is unconditionally inferior in terms of the quality of assembly and fitting of parts. But the plane 2000 years.

Quote: GSH-18

What's the point of throwing money out of what ??

so they don’t throw them away. threw on do not understand what is called c-37.

Quote: GSH-18

This car is really 5-th generation!

yeah. if you have already gone oblique for PGO on the MiG, then we ask a question about the compatibility of stealth technologies with s-shaped air intakes which are not on the t-50. or criticism towards t-50 is not accepted? and so it goes?

[adept666]

"Typhoon" flies, and somehow it normally meets the needs of the time ...

During the development of Eurofighter, the MiG-29 / Su-27 was adopted as an enemy standard, and during the development of PAKFA, F-22 was adopted. Initially, higher requirements for the project and therefore the difference is this.

f-35, t-50 unconditionally inferior

So unconditionally Give examples (in pictures) where the T-50 is worse fitted.

so they don’t throw them away. threw on do not understand what is called c-37.

On the S-37, as well as on the Su-35S, the Russian Defense Ministry did not throw a penny - this is the initiative work of Sukhoi for their money from export sales.

yeah. if you have already gone oblique for PGO on the MiG, then we ask a question about the compatibility of stealth technologies with s-shaped air intakes which are not on the t-50. or criticism towards t-50 is not accepted? and so it goes?

Criticism (reasonable) is accepted. As for the S-shaped air intakes, it is difficult to optimize them for the various stages of the flight: subsonic / supersonic / active maneuvering with large angles of attack. This significantly worsens the performance characteristics, imposes restrictions on maneuver. Therefore, the T-50 seems to have decided to abandon this screen option, there will be a radar - a blocker and cunning compressor blades (as on the NK-32).

[Robinzon57]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Andrei from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

But where to put it there? 99% no. And if you look at the "face of the face", we understand that there is no stealth either.

I agree, the lineup of the 70s, and therefore looks from the perspective of 2015 caricatured. In this, Poghosyan was right.

[Falcon]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

But where can it be placed there? 99% - no.

Well in j-20 they found a place. Here, too, I think they planned to place it in a similar way.

[Ze Kot]

Quote: Falcon

Well in j-20 they found a place. Here, too, I think they planned to place it in a similar way.

He has air intakes on the side, and the MiG below

[Falcon]

Quote: The Cat

He has air intakes on the side, and the MiG below

So what? They are S-shaped

[aviator65]

I can reassure all doubters. With the internal placement of the BC at 1.44, everything is more than safe. I personally saw what its compartment of the BC and the entire aircraft both from the inside and the outside are. Everything else was fine there, too. Fortunately, I had the opportunity to participate in the work on this machine from the full-size prototype stage to the first prototype. I draw your attention to the fact that he was on the slipways at the end of 89.
Having read the posts of those who criticize this project "in the tail and in the mane", I absolutely do not even want to enter into polemics. Sorry, but all this criticism is like telling the hostess that her borscht is not tasty, and she doesn't know how to cook it, although she just didn't have time to cook it up. Again, due to the fact that someone took and cut off the gas on the stove for her. And the conclusions, as always, are banal: "MiG sucks, Sukhovites are more advanced by definition, thank Poghosyan!"

[adept666]

Fortunately, I had the opportunity to participate in the work on this machine from the full-size prototype stage to the first prototype.

Three questions. 1: Who is the general designer of the aircraft? 2 What is the fundamental difference between the fuselages between 1.44 and 1.46? 3: Features of the pilot seat in layout 1.42.

[aviator65]

Doubt it? You are welcome!
1. The aircraft had a chief designer (not general) G. A. Sedov. The general designer is headed by OKB, at that time R. A. Belyakov. He oversaw the topic of Belosvet, deputy. general.
2. 1.46 was in the preliminary design stage, and I personally did not participate in this work. I worked on the development of life support systems and rescue equipment directly at 1.42 / 1.44. Therefore, at that time I was not familiar with the features of 1.46, like most of the OKB employees. All information in the public domain about this possible modification appeared much later. I was not interested in her. But with my own eyes I saw all the changes that were made in 1.42 / 1.44 even at the layout stage. Of the most notable: the shape of the air intakes (it was originally animated), the shape of the PGO, the shape of the wingtips (initially there were guides for missiles similar to Su27), the shape and dimensions of the vertical tail, the configuration of the tail, the variant with rectangular deflectable nozzles similar to F22 was worked out, number and location points of external suspension. This is what I saw myself. And where did you get the information on! .46?
3. The chair was one of the K36 modifications with a back deflected to 30 *. A new ORK (integrated communications connector) was also installed on the armchair.
And I have a counter question for you: in what color was the model 1.44 originally painted?

[adept666]

Doubt it? You are welcome!

A little, you said above that at 1.44 internal placement of BC, right? You can ask a little more specific where?

[aviator65]

Quote: adept666

You can ask a little more specific where?

Your photo when and where? This is the first.
Secondly. I wrote about what took place at the beginning of 92.
Thirdly. Remind me how many copies of this machine were built in metal? It’s not difficult for me: ed. 1.42 - full-scale model for statistical tests - 1 pc., Ed. 1.44 - the first flight sample, again for testing - 1 pc. Do you think that on the first full-scale model, which even a prototype can be called with a stretch, all the technical solutions inherent in the project should be implemented?
Still recall, in what period was this sample created? The project was actually financially strangled, and in terms of implementation too! The thought of trying to save costs and time, but finally get the 1st flight instance, does not occur to you? And the first flight T-50, what could immediately go into battle?
Well, what, will we continue to discuss the taste of undercooked cutlets?

[adept666]

Your photo when and where? This is the first.

At MAKS 2015, but there is also an older photo, the beginning of the 2000s

Do you think ... all the technical solutions inherent in the project should be implemented?

No, of course, but these are not my words: With the internal placement of the BC at 1.44 more than safely. , and your. It is 1.44 in the photo. What am I actually ... You see how many screw connections of the fuselage panels, they are attached to something, right? So there are elements of the rigidity of the skin (beams / frames), i.e. power elements of the fuselage initially did not assume the presence of emptiness there. In these situations, you can’t just take and make the sashes, everything will have to be counted and redone, i.e. the skeleton will be completely different. In the photo below you can better see the bathtub under the conformal arrangement of the weapon, the question is why do this if it was originally intended to make a bomb gate? Maybe not everything was so good with the internal BC at 1.44 and that’s why the project was adjusted and the 5th generation contest came out with drawings of a completely different machine, and not the one in the photo in the article?

The thought of trying to save costs and time, but finally get the 1st flight instance, does not occur to you?

Comes, but if there was supposed to be a bomb-gate, then a glider designed for emptiness would initially be sheathed in a different way and there would be no bath for armaments, would it not?

And the first flight T-50, what could immediately go into battle?

We kind of objectively talk about the internal location of the BC, and not about the battle, so the T-50-1 bombing bay is not full of rivets

Well, what, will we continue to discuss the taste of undercooked cutlets?

What is there to continue? It is quite obvious that you are not telling the truth, stating that 1.44 has an internal arrangement of the ammunition and it is there judging by the design of the bottom and was not even supposed in the drawings. There are studies of this arrangement in other versions of the car, but for this it would have been necessary to completely redesign the glider and it would be a different side.

[aviator65]

Quote: adept666

but for this one would have to completely redesign the glider and it would be a different side.

Well, well, apparently you know better.

[Vadivak]

Quote: adept666

Lord, how tired of these tears for the IFIs.

Right, let the Chinese cry. The car was frankly not so hot, and the money was too heavy, and with regards to stealth, it wasn’t at all

[Odysseus]

Quote: adept666

So it turns out that the MiG-31 was made super-maneuverable, and not a 5th generation fighter.

In general, it would be true if such a MiG-31 were brought to a deep modernization. It would replace the Su-27P.

Quote: adept666

As for Pogosyan, they say that he was the villain who killed a super plane because of his ugly duckling with CBS.

In fairness, it must be said that the scheme with CBS is still stillborn. If compared with S-37, then, of course, it was necessary to bring 1.44.

Quote: adept666

. Poghosyan did the main thing - he created the TECHNOLOGY of PRODUCTION of the necessary components for the 5th generation fighter,

Well, this is a too loud statement, some components are still missing, and even more so, it is doubtful for the period of the 80s-90s reviewed in the article.
Well, you painted everything beautifully.

[adept666]

In fairness, I must say that the scheme with CBS is still stillborn.

Then the grandmother said for two, CBS (+ duck) is quite relevant, say for ship-based vehicles and is still conducting research on the S-37

If we compare with the S-37, then, of course, it was necessary to bring 1.44.

Neither one at the time of the decision to design a new side did not meet the requirements. Another thing is the technology of airframe production itself was better worked out in Sukhoi Design Bureau, more work was done on new materials, they had more money because of foreign orders, plus the financial part, heavy fighters are better sold, they are more versatile and have greater modernization potential (more powerful is the energy sector, more internal volume, more fuel, etc.) Yes, and for the Russian Air Force, it is the heavy board that is more relevant, therefore they gave those who had better technology, more money and experience in the design of heavy machines.

Well, this is a too loud statement, some components are still missing, and even more so, it is doubtful for the period of the 80s-90s reviewed in the article.

Well no. Already there was a huge amount of work on composites (including everything necessary for SERIAL production) of KOS with its elastic divergence, it’s still a dirty trick, but the plane flew in supersonic as well, including EMDS (later it will appear on the Su-35S) , worked out new solutions in the mechanization of the wing, new technologies for the production of parts of the airframe, which already made it possible to make SMART sheathing (sensors, for example, to build various ones, which were vital for the CBS scheme in order to measure the load in dynamics and maneuver, and this is TECHNOLOGY), There was a serial OVT on the Su-30MKI (CLIVT only on an experimental machine), during the implementation of foreign orders we managed to work with bourgeois electronics, adapt it to our systems, form requirements for our own electronic industry on the basis of these components, and much more.

[tomket]

Quote: adept666

C-37 was built with the wide use of composites, so that for the production of its airframe, a special production of integral large-knot parts of the fuselage of complex shapes was established and it was this reserve that allowed us to work on the PAKFA. Poghosyan did the main thing - he created the TECHNOLOGY of MANUFACTURE of the necessary components for the fighter of the 5 generation, and now he creates a board based on these technologies! And on the basis of technologies for creating 4-generation machines (which was demonstrated in the IFIs), the fifth-generation board could not be built, however much it would be desirable.

Yes, but only SKDs made from composite are now largely abandoned. Because they CANNOT be repaired. one bullet hole in the wing at all. Hey. On the same Raptor, the concept of reasonable sufficiency of composites with titanium replacement was introduced. However, Poghosyan is very smart, and pilots will pay as usual.

[adept666]

large-component parts made of composite are now largely abandoned.

The share of composites in aircraft from aircraft to aircraft is growing and this trend will not change, without them, it will not be possible to achieve new qualitative changes in the performance characteristics. The concept of their application is changing. I agree with this.

Because they are NOT REPAIRABLE. one hole in the wing of a bullet in everything

What bullet? This is not an armored personnel carrier))) The fragments and the striking elements of missiles would have written alright Yes, indeed, most composites usually have low impact strength, so they must be used carefully, but there are breakthrough technologies in this direction, for example, fiber composites with a metal matrix. However, if the damaging elements damage the aluminum wing, then in the same way it will not be recoverable, as the whole plane crashed to the ground

On the same Raptor, the concept of reasonable sufficiency of composites with titanium replacement was introduced.

When they made a raptor (25 years ago), they simply could not create the required level of composites, so they replaced it with expensive titanium (with an increase in mass and the LTH from the calculated floated as a result of this), however, it alone has thermoplastic carbon plastics 10-15% of the total mass of the glider, and the total share of composites reaches 40-50% i.e. almost half of the composites

However, Poghosyan is very smart at our place, and pilots will pay as always.

Well, tell the teacher how to build airplanes, given that he must take a lot of fuel, do not glow on radars, have high profitability while taking on board a bunch of equipment, weapons, withstand overloads up to 9g and shortly up to 10-11g, with all of these the delights of maneuvering like a bee. Where the brilliant Michurins only take you ...

[tomket]

Quote: adept666

What bullet? This is not an armored personnel carrier)))

Bullet, splinter, the difference is not great.

Quote: adept666

but there are breakthrough technologies in this direction

Tell me, have these breakthrough technologies been applied in c-37?

Quote: adept666

However, if the damaging elements damage the aluminum wing, then in the same way it will not be recoverable, as the whole plane crashed to the ground

in my opinion there was a photo with a bursting rocket in the nozzle f-15. and even the scattered Su-25 reaching the base cannot be counted ...

Quote: adept666

Well, tell the teacher how to build airplanes, given that he must take a lot of fuel, do not glow on radar,

What should I tell? there is c-37 there is 1.44. two different concepts of aircraft structure.

[adept666]

Tell me, have these breakthrough technologies been applied in c-37?

They are at PAKFA, and the technologies for the production and design of composites in general and in particular were worked out at S-37 because it was precisely because of CBS that they required them. Thanks to that enormous work, the dry have the opportunity to build advanced gliders, but the Migovans do not, and that will be so already obvious in the late 90s.

in my opinion there was a photo with a bursting rocket in the nozzle f-15. and even the scattered Su-25 reaching the base cannot be counted ...

C-37 having received a rocket into the nozzle would most likely have reached the base in the same way, but this is actually a bad example, are we about the wing and aren't there composites?))) As for the Su-25, it’s an attack aircraft and it has higher combat survivability requirements than any other side, there is only titanium armor per ton. It was created to survive in the batch. In this case, purely for fun, look at its performance characteristics, in fact they eloquently say that if you need a maneuverable board with high performance characteristics, titanium is not for you, you need light composites

[avia1991]

Quote: adept666

Thanks to that enormous work, the dry have the opportunity to build advanced gliders, but the Migovans do not, and that will be so already obvious in the late 90s.

It seems that you are the General Designer of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, so well you "know" the capabilities of his team
Here is a comment by a person who directly (according to him) worked in the MiG Design Bureau when creating MFIs - he, unlike you, is much more restrained - and clearly more objective - in his assessments.

[adept666]

It seems that you are the General Designer of Sukhoi Design Bureau

Alas and ah ...

so well you "know" the capabilities of his team wassat

I really know someone.

Here is a comment by a person who directly (according to him) worked at MiG Design Bureau when creating MFI

I saw his comment, even asked him a couple of questions. Let's see what answers and it will already be visible whether he worked or not.

he, unlike you, is much more restrained

So maybe he basically just has nothing to say (didn’t you consider this option? )

and clearly more objective - in assessments.

And what is its objectivity manifested? He actually did not say anything, or did I miss some comment on him? Moreover, he is an interested person (if he worked on the project), few can admit his loss and mistakes.

[aviator65]

Quote: adept666

Moreover, he is an interested person (if he worked on the project), few can admit his loss and mistakes.

Yes, God be with you! How can I, a simple mechanical engineer of one of the research departments of the Design Bureau, recognize a loss? I just did my job, and I liked and was interested in this work. And about interest, it’s just a shame for me for the power ...

[adept666]

Yes, God be with you!

Hope with me

And about interest, it’s just a shame for me for the power ...

Don’t worry, migrants have a chance of revenge It seems like they were given an easy PAKFA to design LFI developments, I think, still remained in the coffers.

[aviator65]

Quote: adept666

Don’t worry, migrants have a chance of revenge

Thank! I truly believe in this.

[mosquito]

Not a single photo in flight ... The plane did not fly... The sample carried out taxiing ...
Vicious aerodynamic design ...
It doesn't smell like a mythical "5th generation" ...

A purely personal opinion ..

PS. It seems to fly ..

[Dryuya2]

Quote: mosquit

Not a single photo in flight ... The plane did not fly.

2.09min ????

[McLuha-MacLeod]

Touches the splash screen before the flight - "FIRST PALETS"

[Dryuya2]

Quote: McLooka-MacLeod

"FIRST PALETS"

[Sling]

and what is it., written in Belarusian

[noWAR]

Quote: Sling

and what is it., written in Belarusian

And on what?

[GSH-18]

Quote: McLooka-MacLeod

Touches the splash screen before the flight - "FIRST PALETS"

That's why he flew so that they decided not to continue

[velikoros-xnumx]

The article is mostly delusional, specifications taken from Wiki. Al-41f with its thrust would be unlikely to provide max. a speed of more than 3000 km / h at the level of Mig 31 with its phenomenal d-30f6, EPR 0,3 M2 ???. It is close to Eurofighter, the radar absorbing coating and armament inside the fuselage would of course give a serious reduction in the EPR, but not to the indicated figure.

[adept666]

Al-41f with its thrust would be unlikely to provide max. a speed of more than 3000 km / h at the level of Mig 31 with its phenomenal d-30f6,

The thrust on the afterburner AL-41F is 2500 kgf more than that of d-30f6 (do not confuse it with truncated AL-41F1).

[mosquito]

Key features of the MiG 1.44: duck-type design, triangular wing with high aerodynamic quality

Vicious scheme

engines with variable thrust vector (planned to be installed)

planned to install

radar absorbing coating

Plain paint

placing all or most of the weapons inside the aircraft fuselage

This is a fantasy, for this model, the only ammunition placed inside the fuselage is a gun with ammunition (which is not) ...

two adjustable air intakes

it is a necessity for supersonic, and there are two engines ...

[sa-ag]

Quote: mosquit

Plain paint

Not ferromagnetic?

[mosquito]

This sample has the usual ...

[adept666]

Vicious scheme

In the MiG-1.44, the main wing is located in the flow slope from the front horizontal tail (+ also the original fuselage design), so many of the unpleasant disadvantages of the scheme are either completely eliminated or significantly leveled, for example, such as "diving" at high angles of attack. Plus, if there were a dvigla with OVT, modern software on a powerful computer, then the car would show a trick in the air no worse than the Su-35S But the payload (theoretical EU) of 12 tons is very impressive. But the time of such machines has already passed, now it’s the time of silent killers, and there are serious problems with the EPR on this board (including due to PGO). All our designers did the right thing, looked at the operation of the F-22, took into account its shortcomings, developed a methodology and the concept of reasonable sufficiency between the LTX and stealth, received the necessary technological and production reserve, re-equipped the production facilities and issued an excellent PAKFA machine.

this is a necessity for supersonic, and two engines ... wink

How does the F-22 do without this need?

This is a fantasy, for this model, the only ammunition placed inside the fuselage is a gun with ammunition (which is not) ...

In fact, the fuselage placement, even with such a scheme, is possible between the engines and the first section of the air intakes (then they go around the top), the question remains in volume)))

[Falcon]

Quote: adept666

But the payload (theoretical EU) in 12 tons is very impressive.

There was a book about the 5 generation. They were given a load capacity of 5 tons. 12 is unlikely. it’s still an interceptor, not a drummer.

Quote: adept666

But the time of such cars has passed, now the time of silent killers

As a replacement for the Mig-31 completely. Minimum functionality and prices, a lot of fuel, a powerful engine, 2-4 rockets. Relatively cheap interceptor. Of course not a fighter like the T-50, but the interceptor is quite.

[adept666]

There was a book about the 5 generation. They were given a load capacity of 5 tons. 12 is unlikely. it’s still an interceptor, not a drummer.

With such a scheme and such engines it’s quite possible to pull 12 tons off the ground, another thing is how they should be placed in the fuselage (there are all kinds of loads )

As a replacement for the Mig-31 completely.

Except that...

[mosquito]

Quote: adept666

In the MiG-1.44, the main wing is located in the flow slope from the front horizontal tail (+ also the original fuselage design), so many of the unpleasant disadvantages of the scheme are either completely eliminated or significantly leveled, for example, such as "diving" at high angles of attack. Plus, if there were a dvigla with OVT, modern software on a powerful computer, then the car would show a trick in the air no worse than the Su-35S

..by ..by Do not fantasize, the story is not subjunctive ...

Quote: adept666

How does the F-22 do without this need?

Are you sure that channels 22 are not adjustable? After all, they regulate the flow ...
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2012148318A1?cl=ru

A supersonic adjustable flat (two-dimensional) air intake is known, in which the flow is decelerated on an adjustable multistage direct wedge in a series of oblique shock waves. To improve the characteristics of the air intake on the wedge, perforation can be performed, and in the throat area, a transverse slit of the boundary layer drain. (Remeev N.Kh. Aerodynamics of air intakes of supersonic aircraft. TsAGI ed., Zhukovsky, 2002, 178 pp.)

Analogs include the supersonic air intake of an F-22 aircraft, which implements a spatial compression scheme for supersonic flow Ί (Aerodynamics, stability, and controllability of supersonic aircraft, edited by G.S.Bushgenz. - M .: Nauka. Fizmatlit, 1998). To reduce the radar signature of the F-22 aircraft, the air intake is made with sweeping all the edges of the entrance. In the front view, the entrance to the air intake is in the form of a parallelogram. The air intake has one braking step on perforated vertical and horizontal wedges, air bypass flaps in the channel. The air intake duct is S-shaped. The ability to control the minimum passage area (throat) is absent. The disadvantages include the lack of regulation of the throat of the air intake of the F-22 aircraft. For this reason, its characteristics at supersonic flight modes are lower than the level characteristic of adjustable air intakes (System analysis of the technical appearance of the F / A-22 “Reptor” aircraft, report of FSUE “GosNIIAS” Ka68 (15396) 2005). Apparently, the air intake is not designed to fly with a Mach number greater than M = 2.0 (Aerodynamics, stability and controllability of supersonic aircraft, edited by G. S. Byushgens. - M .: Nauka. Fizmatlit, 1998).

Quote: adept666

In fact, the fuselage placement, even with such a scheme, is possible between the engines and the first section of the air intakes (then they go around the top), the question remains in volume)))

Alas, this is a fantasy ...
Take a closer look at the Mig-25/31 ... they have at least between the air intakes in the frontal projection of the cockpit ...
With this arrangement, it is impossible to place something from the armament between the SU ...

[adept666]

..by .. do not fantasize, history is not subordinate ...

Without a flight of thought and fantasy, progress would have stopped.

Are you sure that channels 22 are not adjustable?

I am sure. You then carefully wrote to me in the comments: The ability to control the minimum passage area (throat) is absent. The disadvantages include the lack of regulation of the throat of the air intake of the F-22 aircraft. For this reason, its characteristics at supersonic flight modes are lower than the level characteristic of adjustable air intakes.

Alas, this is a fantasy ...

Fantasy, not fantasy, but theoretically it is possible, look above at the Chinese with an open hatch, it’s just done for him as I wrote, despite the fact that his air intakes are spaced apart, their channels above the hatch pass from above.

[mosquito]

According to my student data, the aircraft was designed as an interceptor, including satellites (with the corresponding missile) ...
If you want, you can open the janes of the second half of the 80s, there was a picture, though the engine 4 ...

[Free wind]

I am uneducated in this thread, but judging by the picture this is not the 5th generation. I can’t say if MIGs are needed, but in principle light fighters are probably needed to cover troops, especially MIGs can take off from bad airfields. But here they turned down the prices for airplanes and the Ministry of Defense refuses to buy this, plus there are some problems with the radar. that is, it does not have any analogs in the world, it doesn’t work, the old 30 radars will be installed on the first 35 cars, I'm talking about the MIG-XNUMX. Muti much incomprehensible.

[sevtrash]

Most likely, MiG 1.44 MFI fell victim to the collapse of the USSR.
"... Meanwhile, during the construction of an experimental machine, problems arose that turned out to be more significant than the inevitable difficulties of designers and technologists in a new business. By the end of 1991, the entire Soviet military-industrial complex entered a severe crisis on a grand scale ..."

Without this, they would have done for sure, another question would be Mig at the level of f22. The lag in the electronic component has not gone away, and this gave additional tens / hundreds? kilogram, well, and efficiency.
And with regard to "stealth" there were nuances:

"... At the same time, a number of solutions, albeit related to the individual characteristics of 1.44, do not fit well with modern ideas about ways to reduce the RCS: lower keels playing the role of corner reflectors, neglect of the approved sawtooth organization of the edges of hatches and panels, angular joints of keels, wings and the fuselage, the presence of a gargrot with the same "corners" ...

[dmi.pris1]

He fell victim to stupidity and greed .... In Soviet times, there were also backstage squabbles between the design bureau. But usually, before deciding on the production of equipment, they always carried out comparative tests of the proposed samples.

Quote: sevtrash

Most likely, MiG 1.44 MFI fell victim to the collapse of the USSR.
"... Meanwhile, during the construction of an experimental machine, problems arose that turned out to be more significant than the inevitable difficulties of designers and technologists in a new business. By the end of 1991, the entire Soviet military-industrial complex entered a severe crisis on a grand scale ..."

Without this, they would have done for sure, another question would be Mig at the level of f22. The lag in the electronic component has not gone away, and this gave additional tens / hundreds? kilogram, well, and efficiency.
And with regard to "stealth" there were nuances:

"... At the same time, a number of solutions, albeit related to the individual characteristics of 1.44, do not fit well with modern ideas about ways to reduce the RCS: lower keels playing the role of corner reflectors, neglect of the approved sawtooth organization of the edges of hatches and panels, angular joints of keels, wings and the fuselage, the presence of a gargrot with the same "corners" ...

[cachekmosa]

An article is sucked from a finger, cutting of excerpts from the Internet, the only common thought at the end of an article about the loss of competition between KB.

[da Vinci]

This plane, if it appeared at one time, would have been a very smart addition (or the Su 27, but as an invisible one - only with "plasma protection" (according to some experts). And the MiG 29 reminds me of a stripped-down, cheaper clone of the Su 27, and as a result, losing to him in combat capabilities.

[vladimir_krm]

Yeah. Just the opposite: Su-27 clone MiG-29 :)
The prototype Su-27 did not work, I had to redesign the project completely, borrowing on the recommendations of TsAGI the scheme of the MiG-29 that had already successfully taken off. Academician Buschgens said:
http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2007-07-20/5_wings.html

[tomket]

Quote: da Vinci

And the MiG 29 reminds me of a stripped-down, cheaper clone of Su 27, and as a result, losing to it in combat capabilities. IMHO

Nothing that MiG-29 appeared before ????

[da Vinci]

Perhaps the more surprising is the inertia of the MiG corporation!

[tomket]

Quote: da Vinci

the more surprising is the inertia of the MiG corporation!

What is the inertia ???? In the fact that they previously created the MiG-29 and 1.44?

[Zaurbek]

If 1.44 were ready and better than the Raptor, it would have been finalized and adopted. In fact, it was a semi-finished product with the best practices of the 5th generation. And the design bureau did not live up to the 2000s. Who would finish this plane? The 5th generation is so complicated and expensive that the strength of one KB is not enough, therefore they unite the KB. This is happening all over the world. A light front-line fighter is very necessary. Otherwise, in quantitative terms, we will lag behind and lose in the export market in the next century. Of the new aircraft, there will be F35 and a Japanese fighter and different 4 +++ and a Chinese light one.

[tomket]

Quote: Zaurbek

If the 1.44 were ready and better than the Raptor, it would have been finalized and adopted. In fact, it was a semi-finished product with the achievements of the 5 generation

The history of 1.44 is very similar to the history of the ka-50. By analogy with the Sukhoi Design Bureau, Kamov in every possible way put sticks in the wheels of the Mil Design Bureau. As a result, the loser of all contests, the Mi-28, went into service. The Ka-52 appeared with the absolute apathy of the country's leadership and generals. It came to such tragicomic curiosities, when at the exercises in 2004. The Ka-50 saw the government of Kazakhstan and asked to supply them with these helicopters, our leadership caught on as the well-known saying "you need such a cow yourself."

[Zaurbek]

You're wrong. Ka 50-ready and well-developed model, Ka 52 was so quickly created precisely because of this. Technically, the machines are the same, only places-2. Electronics made as the development of the electronic industry. And then an experienced aircraft, an experienced aerodynamic design built on 4th generation units. Sukhoi had the S-47 Golden Eagle, for the same done.

[tomket]

Quote: Zaurbek

You're wrong. Ka 50 - a ready-made and elaborated sample, Ka 52 was

The Ka-52 has come a long way to its final appearance. In the process of which he overgrown with both additional equipment and capabilities. To judge what the 1.44 could become based on a prototype on which some parts from serial fighter jets were used, in order to speed up the construction of the prototype is at least silly. This prototype was built to verify the correctness of the choice of this aerodynamic scheme. We were going to add equipment and make changes on another prototype. Then the stupid analysis begins. There wasn’t it, it wasn’t ... There would be funding, there would have been an AFAR and a thrust vector and a compartment with weapons .....

[Zaurbek]

Ka50 was like Mi 28:
- fuselage
- Engines
- Breo corrected for the 80s, but on the terms of reference
- Armament, gun 2A46, NURSy, ATGM Whirlwind and other
bailout system
Did not have :
- Thermal imager (in the USSR they were just starting to develop them)
- The radar was not in those assignments.

Of all the major structural changes, the cockpit was redone, if you look at the options for Turkey, then it is clear that this does not require reworking the entire glider. All of this is not in 1.44. It does not correspond to those assignment and 80-90 years.

[Zaurbek]

Ka50 was like Mi 28:
- fuselage
- Engines
- Breo corrected for the 80s, but on the terms of reference
- Armament, gun 2A46, NURSy, ATGM Whirlwind and other
bailout system
Did not have :
- Thermal imager (in the USSR they were just starting to develop them)
- The radar was not in those assignments.

Of all the major structural changes, the cockpit was redone, if you look at the options for Turkey, then it is clear that this does not require reworking the entire glider. All of this is not in 1.44. It does not correspond to those assignment and 80-90 years.

[Zaurbek]

I didn't like the article, except for phrases like "better and better" there is nothing. There are so many new technologies in the 5th generation, from electric wing mechanization to radar and engines, that it is difficult to imagine it in an airplane of the 1990s. And to afford to make an improved 4th generation aircraft with "live" MiG29 and Su27 is more wasteful .. Much can be achieved by modernization. Compare the MiG 35 with 1.44 and discuss.

[omulu]

My feeling is that KB Mikoyan is quietly being drained. There are no new contracts, only a trifle and most likely Poghosyan monopolizes the domestic military aviation market in Russia. And this is not the first time about this aircraft. Remember the story of the Yak-141, which was also hacked, and technology was successfully leaked to the West.

[Cap.Morgan]

History has shown that vertical take-off aircraft in their characteristics are seriously inferior to traditional aircraft. Then why are they needed? Slaughtered and glory to God. Released more Dryers, instead of the frankly weak Yak.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

instead of the frankly weak Yak.

Vertical lines are most likely needed for the fleet. BUT! Harrier - is in service and can even carry a UPS. F-35 with a single dvigl, like Harrier - made by technology Stealth, the carrier of SBP.
The trouble with our aircraft industry is that we don’t have a Rolls-Royce or Pratt & Whitney turbojet engine like an adversary, so we have to carry 2 tons of PD behind us. So who can withstand this!

[Aksakal_07]

To use the author's “style”, I am “driven into black melancholy” by his statement that “the first flight (talking about the MiG-1.44), according to various sources, was made on February 29, 1999 or 2000”. How many grades did the author graduate if he admits there were 1999 days in February 29? This is not to mention the spread in determining the date of the flight in one year - this is a lot for our information age, it was not in the Middle Ages that it happened.

[marshes]

It would be a good budget LFI, with one engine. Like the Chinese I-B-Chengdu J-10.

[Cap.Morgan]

Then there was no money stupidly. Now there is money, they began to pay attention to these issues. So I do not see a reason for writing. On the contrary, now other, fresh technical solutions have appeared in comparison with the year 2000.

[Genry]

What is the author so angry?
The dry one had a Su-47 Golden Eagle with reverse sweep. Got the results and realized that it was not ...
In fact, these are passing experiments for probing directions with new properties.
The author, apparently soon, will write an article about the offended Tu-334 (based on the ancient 134), demanding that it be launched into production.

[max702]

Quote: Genry

. Got the results and realized that it was not ...

The results there were not bad .. But there was a problem of too revolutionary engineering and technologies, that is, working a lot is desirable with unlimited funding. and the plane was needed at best tomorrow .. Here, using the obtained technologies, we went along the proven path of f-22 .. It is possible to return to the C-47 topic when designing the 6th generation, there, unlike 1.44, there really is a very big reserve for further work, and 1.44 it is a creatively redesigned MIG-31 and he could not give any revelations ..

[mav1971]

Quote: max702

Quote: Genry

. Got the results and realized that it was not ...

The results there were not bad .. But there was a problem of too revolutionary engineering and technologies, that is, work on the edge is desirable with unlimited funding. and the plane was needed at best tomorrow ..

What is too revolutionary here?
Broken circuit and all. she does not bear anything worthy, and the costs are enormous.
Dead end scheme.

[Denis Skiff]

Quote: bmw

I'm certainly not special in aviation, but the trend is obvious. Corporate interests in our country have become higher than the interests of the state and national security. The merger of different design bureau under the roof of the UAC all the same went to the detriment. They are money and money in Africa. Management in the trash.

The transfer was in the alliance kb also fought. Today it is a little different form.

[Aleksandr1959]

The topic of the IFI was initial, when the concept of PAK FA did not exist. And then we have to thank ... including Mr. Poghosyan, who lobbied only those projects in which he himself participated. With the cover of the MiG 1.44 theme, time was lost. But, as they say, after a fire and a member of the pump ... The lessons of this story should be taken into account so that personality factors influence the development of aviation technology as little as possible.

[Glagol1]

Article-mirage. Features 1.44 referenced by the author,
taken from the ceiling. EPR 0,3 m2 especially. Mistaken about ten times ...

[Pate]

Judging by the technical characteristics and armament, a magnificent fighter, it is a pity that he will not go into the series, but Sukhovsky T-50.

[dumkopff]

Don't you know? The t-50 has a maximum speed of 4500 km / h, afterburning supersonic sound, a flight range of 8000 km, and an EPR of 0,000005 square meters. And other buns. But shhh! It's a secret!

[Diviz]

They put the plane at the MAKS show for the development of the project with other countries that will invest in its development and production.

[foma2028]

What I want to say about the article and comments.
Firstly, the competition between design bureaus has always been in all countries and it is not always "pure". Let us recall at least Tupolev and Sukhovskaya Sotka. It would be a sin for anyone, but Mikoyanites to complain, Anastas Mikoyan's aura always moved the design bureau with a slight head start, especially in relation to the intelligent P.O. Sukhoi. I read in my memoirs (to my shame I forgot whose, it seems Fedosov) that in TsAGI there was a green street on the purge of the MiG.
So, when did the old-timers leave at TsAGI, the aviation industry, etc. then the pendulum naturally swung in the opposite direction. It happens.
Further, there is an opinion that KB MiG fell victim to the fact that their factories were in the capital and large cities of the European part of Russia and had a high price for land, and therefore were famously bankrupt and sold by "brokers". And the Sukhoi plants in Irkutsk, Novosibirsk, Komsomolsk were in this respect in a more sparing regime.
The other side of the issue, the money from the sale of Sukhovtsy developed, and the Mikoyanovtsy more bought Chinese down jackets and other goods, ate money. This was noted in some memoirs and memoirs.
Well, comparing the T-50, F-22 and 1.44 gliders, not even a specialist can see that the MiG's stealth is incomparably less, if at all. And the plasma generator and the absorbing paint are probably scratching the ears of customers from the famous design bureau. There were articles and books on this subject in order to absorb radio waves, all the more short coverage should be a few centimeters thick, if I’m certainly not mistaken, I read it a long time ago.
So in this situation: 90 and other factors 1.44 lost and apparently this is not so bad.
The aircraft is at best 4 ++ but not the 5 generation.

[foma2028]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

The scatter of enterprises was intended to strengthen the ranks of the working class of the outskirts. Only it turned out crookedly. They will build an aircraft factory somewhere in Georgia, and then workers are brought from Russia.

In the book by O. Samoilovich "Near Sukhoi" the situation with the Tbilisi plant and the Su-25 is well described.
As Samoilovich saw half-empty workshops, and to the question where did people hear in response: They are harvesting grapes in personal subsidiary plots. And the build quality of the Su-25, when due to the violated technology, the Su-25 turned over on their backs in flight. When they complained, then Shevarnadze fanned a whole scandal, they say they are digging under the Georgian proletariat.

[Yak28]

In general, it’s bad that only Su is developing a 5th generation airplane here, there’s nothing to choose, what’s dry and will do it, but it’s not good.

[Falcon5555]

About 1.44 - common sense and one look at it is enough to understand everything about its "stealth". As it was possible to understand from the press, the MiG in the 90s fell under the Yeltsin family and began to earn money for management on dubious secondary contracts, and, as we can see, practically stopped normal work. Sukhoi was considered unpromising on the market and therefore avoided falling into the hands of grabber. As a result, Sukhoi-Poghosyan made new types of aircraft, as if baking pies, and managed to produce them in Siberia (!) And in the Far East (!) And sell them in hundreds and thousands abroad, but Mig did not design, produce and sell nothing short of some rare exceptions, such as the demonstration of this ridiculous 1.44 or the sale of a modification of the 29s and the scandalous return from Algeria, but these exceptions rather confirm the rule. Is there still a MiG? ..

[tomket]

Quote: Falcon5555

. As a result, Sukhoi-Poghosyan made new types of aircraft, as if baking pies, and managed to produce them in Siberia (!) And in the Far East (!) And sell them hundreds and thousands abroad

Well, well ... you say yes, don’t speak up .... otherwise it’s pies and the bill has gone for thousands. All that Pogosyan sells is a refinement of the Soviet backlog.

[Falcon5555]

Well, I quickly counted my hand, and it seems that only half a thousand are exported, but taking into account outdated data on China. This is still a lot. But the Soviet backlog is a vague concept. If the front horizontal plumage, the controlled nozzles, the fat man of the 34th, the reverse stratiformity of the wing and the PAK stealth are considered Soviet groundwork (most likely these ideas have been studied in theory for a long time), then anything can be declared to them. And MiG should have had it all, if it was a Soviet backlog. Why didn’t he use it?

[TOR2]

In secret, I always hoped that 1.44 would go into the series. The stealth problem MIG engineers tried to solve it in a slightly different way. To hide the aircraft in flight, the hull was equipped with a radio-absorbing coating, which had an uneven surface, which made the device less noticeable for enemy radars. How effective will be the placement of all weapons in the middle of the case you need to look at in practice, since there is a prototype.
Read more at: http://avia.pro/blog/mig-144

[Falcon5555]

Ask yourself the question: "If some kind of magic radio-absorbing paint, even or uneven, simple or working with some additional hand passes, pouring holy water before the start, etc., exists, then what prevents other aircraft from being painted with it: T-50, F-22, F-35, conventional Su, Mig-29, F-15, F-16? " Why don't ordinary people seem to paint like that? And if everyone is painting, then painted airplanes with a licked radio invisible shape will be more invisible than painted ordinary ones, right? So 1.44 will be more visible than his opponent F-22 or F-35 and therefore 1.44 will lose air combat with them, right. And you read about the F-22 and F-35 - they are licked so that there are no notches or irregularities on the hull. Of course, they paint with something, but this is just one of the measures.

[Falcon]

Quote: TOR2

To hide the aircraft in flight, the hull was equipped with a radar absorbing coating.

Such coverage on all modern aircraft ...

Including the Su-35 and Mig-35

[Ze Kot]

"be invisible in radar and infrared ranges,"

I wonder how? The air intakes are open from below and there is no room for the internal arrangement of weapons, under the wings there are attachment points ... What is stealth?

[mosquito]

The question is rhetorical!

[lazy]

Well, yes, another "cry of Yaroslavovna", about a unique plane slaughtered by the "evil" Poghosyan. just from the picture you can see that its forms are the forms of Raphael and Typhoon of the 4th generation fighters, with the location of the air intakes, where is the place for the internal compartments for weapons? And even before the T-50, Sukhoi, on his own initiative, using money received from foreign contracts, constantly improved the Su-27 by issuing new modifications to the mountain (which may not always be good), improved production. (If someone is not too lazy, a photo report from factories where they make instant and where do sou in comparison), Mig also had foreign contracts, well, "where is Zin's money"? now, while there is money from the Indian contract, it is necessary for migars to make 5th generation lfi, unless of course they have not yet lost their team.

[cherkas.oe]

Some kind of nonsense, not an article. There wasn’t even a hundred percent of what was listed in the Wishlist of this opus in that pipelac, which the Migovites had whipped up to participate in the Derban of state funds, especially the 8th tone in the internal compartments. I think this piece of shame Migovskogo KB.

[marshes]

By the way, I wanted to ask, not long ago there was infa that in Russia the last regiment that used the MIG-29, switched to the Su-30 SM, is it?
If so, a picture looms. KB MIG-grandfather Kondraty is selected. And now KB is trying to interest the MIG-1.44 scheme.
Of course, heavy multifunctionals are preferable, due to the size of territories and are economically profitable. Even in our KZ it is advisable to purchase SU-30SM, 35.
But here is the question with the LFI, or the short-range aircraft is still open.
Perhaps the Yak-130, in the future will replace the Su-25, the sighting system, and the MIG-29-installation of engines with afterburner like the Chinese counterpart.
Here is a picture ...

[tomket]

Quote: marshes

RF, the last regiment that used the MIG-29, switched to the Su-30 SM, right?

The regiment in Kursk has flown and will continue to fly. Plus, the air group on the Kuza is being transferred to the MiG-29. So don't read Soviet newspapers at breakfast.

[iliitchitch]

Quote: bmw

I'm certainly not special in aviation, but the trend is obvious. Corporate interests in our country have become higher than the interests of the state and national security. The merger of different design bureau under the roof of the UAC all the same went to the detriment. They are money and money in Africa. Management in the trash.

Get out, excuse me, not in the subject, BUT! And our planes are good. Those are not fu fifteenth. Catch up and dunk. Buns will be hauling elsewhere, exceptional.

[mosquito]

In general, in the Mikoyan Design Bureau, scientific thought has been "fading" since the late 70s ...
The best is Mig 21, 25 (31) ...
Mig23 / 27 series failed ...
Mig-29 (like Su-27) is a layout scheme from SibNIA ... And Sukhoi realized it brilliantly, albeit from the second attempt (T-10 / T10S) ...
The Sukhoi design bureau developed in a diversified manner - fighters, i-bombers, bombers, attack aircraft, strategists ("weaving" ...)
Yes, the Tu-160 has "roots" from the Sukhoi Design Bureau ...
I don’t understand such a transformation, as Yak - neither a citizen nor military aircraft, and Mig - just regress ...
We live on!

[tomket]

Quote: mosquit

Mig23 / 27 series failed ...

Why is this, forgive the MiG-27 is unsuccessful ??? Or MiG-23 MLD ??? So after the appearance of the 4th generation, interest in them disappeared? Or the fact that 27 drank because of far-fetched pretexts in 92? However, like the Su-17. Why is the MiG-29 not so successful? By the fact that his export potential was cut by the failure of contracts with Iran under Yeltsin to please the United States? And why is the 1.44 prototype failing? The aerodynamic scheme is quite successful and viable, as shown by Eurofighter. Please do not carry the Achinea.

[mosquito]

Mig-23, like a fighter, in my subjective opinionfailed LA ...
MiG-27, a necessary measure, the Su-17 was more effective ...

In total, the regiment received 43 MiG-27s - more than the regular number of 40 vehicles (12 in each of the three squadrons and four more in the command line) ....

The first ten MiG-27s were assembled in the TEH regiment along with the factory brigade, the rest by their own forces ..
Aircraft presented a lot of surprises, being frankly raw even for the installation party. In practice, regimental acceptance replaced factory military envoys and technical control: MRK-ZOM did not work on three aircraft, the pipelines of four cars had abrasions and touches on the frame, the main wheels were improperly assembled on seven, the lanterns did not close, and the generators were idle on nine. Self-propelled guns was deregulated on all without exception the MiG-27!

On the airframe, there were frequent cracks in welding the tank-compartment No.2, destruction of the clamping plastic wing flaps and ridge parts, there were cracks in the welding of the titanium tail coke of the fuselage. There were unit failures and leaks in the hydraulic system. The largest number of defects was caused by the fuel system, where the wing caissons were often leaking in the fastening of panels, fuselage tanks and pipe joints, a signal of which were noticeable dirty streaks of kerosene. There was frequent failure to release the brake parachute due to jamming of the kinematics of the flaps, the MRK-30M refused, but the real scourge was the massive one-sided wear of the tires of the main wheels - the collapse did its job, when landing the wheels touched the concrete with the outer "cheek" and rubbed off on the side after a couple of dozen landings.

For the R-29B-300 engine in the first two years of operation of the MiG-27, 157 malfunctions were recorded (only 4,4% of comments on the aircraft as a whole), 11 of them happened in flight. The largest number of defects related to the oil system, and in half of the cases it remained operational, and the chip-in-oil signaling device junked. More serious was the destruction of the air bypass blades due to cracks, and the corrosive VNI-INP-50-1-4F oil caused problems in operation. At the same time, the most serious consequences were caused by the "human factor": 20 engines in the shelves had to be replaced "out of stupidity" - due to the ingress of any debris and forgotten mittens, covers and caps in the air intakes (as the guilty were justified, " to put something - convenient, and at hand ").

The data on the reliability of the MiG-27 electrical equipment were indicative: a flight failure occurred at 282,5 hours of flight, a malfunction on the ground - at 45,2 hours of operation, which was three to four times higher than the performance of similar MiG-23M systems at the beginning of its service - there are failures accounted for only 80 and 10,3 hours, respectively... However, the operating time did not reach the general standards of 1200 and 60 hours, which was understandable at the stage of trial operation (over time, the defects were "exhausted" and the situation improved significantly).

Most of all, the preparation time of the MiG-27 was affected by a long-term check of systems under current, which took half an hour before departure, and a large number of checks with special control equipment, which was attached "in bulk" and had to be carried from plane to plane.

[mosquito]

Farther ...

A whole heap of claims was caused by the state of affairs in armament - many claims were made for failures of holders, malfunctions of control circuits and valves, but, especially, the issue of equipping the aircraft with ammunition remained flawed. The holders themselves had an imperfect design and did not meet the unification requirements - different types of bombs, blocks and launching devices required an "individual approach" with rearranging stops and preparing locks. The ammunition feeder carts were extremely inconvenient to work with, heavy and unreliable. For rockets, blocks and bombs of different calibers, their own sets of lodgments served, which were rearranged for each loading option with fitting and unscrewing a dozen bolts, and their lodgments were intended for different suspension points. Bulky "carts" with a hydraulic lift could not really roll under the plane (the landing gear interfered), which is why the winch cables ran obliquely, threatening to detonate a bomb.

Repost of the article I think is not appropriate. Who cares - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig27.html

[mosquito]

Quote: tomket

And what is not successful MiG-29?

I mentioned Mig-29 and Su-27 in the context of implementing the concept from SibNIA, as an example of the impoverishment of ideas in the design bureau (and not only in the Mikoyan design bureau) ..

The fact that the Mig-29 is an unsuccessful aircraft - I did not say ...

Quote: mosquit

Mig-29 (like Su-27) is a layout scheme from SibNIA ... And Sukhoi realized it brilliantly, albeit from the second attempt (T-10 / T10S) ...

Agree that the potential of the Su-27 is realized and is being implemented very well, given the beginning of the program, this is the 70s of the last century.

[mosquito]

Well, in the continuation of the topic of ideas ...
For example, PAK / FA is a continuation of the same concept - a midplane with an integrated fuselage and 2 spaced engine nacelles.
If the Mig-29 / Su-27 implementations - in the space between the engine nacelles, the ammunition was located on the pylons and is open, then the PAK / FA, due to the greater separation of the engines from the longitudinal axis and the displacement of the cockpit down vertically, managed to place an arms compartment between the engines. .. This is purely subjective ...
Let's say vulgarly, the PAK / FA scheme is a "flattened" scheme of the Su-27, as an implementation of a set of measures to reduce the EPR ...

[Zaurbek]

Mig 23 MLD was very successful, there were complaints about the review from the cockpit. Options were proposed with a new radar, engine. But the series did not go. Mig 27 is a controversial option, in terms of security and extra weight in the form of a wing folding mechanism. In terms of armament, it was quite advanced, there were complaints about the review from the cockpit. A successful scheme 1.44 was implemented by the Chinese, Eurofighter, Rafal. When we bring to mind 1.44, we would get an analogue of Raphael, those half-fifth generation.

[mosquito]

Quote: Zaurbek

A successful scheme 1.44 was implemented by the Chinese, Eurofighter, Rafal. When we bring to mind 1.44, we would get an analogue of Raphael, those half-fifth generation.

Russian Aerospace Forces do not need such "crafts"...

PS. All the same, marketing is doing its job

Quote: Zaurbek

half-fifth generation.

[19max70]

Our officials yesterday, today, tomorrow, as they sat on "kickbacks" and will continue to sit. It's time to return the article to the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation for theft on a large and especially large scale, and so that the article was firing squad.

[Kir1984]

Sorry KB.
MiGs definitely drove in the air wars from the 50s to the 80s, albeit with varying success.
This thing could also show the class, bring it to mind ...
I do not think that the era of moments is over, they still have to show themselves. Although today drying shines more and more often. In Syria, Ch. arr. they are. But anything can happen ... At one time, the Bell firm in the USA was also on the verge of bankruptcy, and then they cut down the hit "cobra", and it came in handy for our pilots, and not only for ours. Hopefully something like this happens in moments. The guys will suddenly dawn, they will make a breakthrough, and everyone will say WAAAAU ... in different languages)))

[lazy]

Migu urgently needs to develop a 5th generation LFI, based on export, there are not many F-35 and Chinese competitors yet. While the niche is relatively free, otherwise the crackers will get the project of a light fighter out of the storehouse, they will develop it on their own initiative, and again the "top" will be to blame))) no, really, while the su is busy with a heavy fighter, and the F-35 looks like an "ugly duckling" master this sector by offering a radically new product, and not just another variation of the mig-29

[Ol willy]

Six years later, crackers got their project out and announced the Su-75

[Engineer]

1.44 - a demonstrator, this is not a combat aircraft, without weapons, without a new engine then, somehow it is not clear how to compare it with an F-22 combat aircraft. Now, if the program had not been closed and the entire test cycle had been carried out, then it would have been possible to compare. And so it is impossible to compare the capabilities on paper and the capabilities of a real aircraft.

[leon1204id]

RSK MIG is more likely alive than dead. Read the interview with S.S. Korotkov.
http://www.migavia.ru/index.php/ru/novosti/smi-o-nas/487-mig-mezhdu-slukhom-i-bu
dushchim
http://nation-news.ru/146603-mig-pristupil-k-razrabotke-legkogo-istrebitelya-5-g
o-generation
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532
http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/meropriyatiya/na_maks_2015_pokazhut_naturnyy_obraze
ts_proekta_samoleta_5_pokoleniya_mig /
There are plans to create a lightweight PAK FA and PAK DP. Gryznya is everywhere. But they have enough gunpowder to roll out the current sample, contrary to the instructions from above. This distinguishes the great from the creative. Good luck to the great.

[Dzafdet]

Quote: adept666

then civil aviation is in complete stagnation and decline. Superjet is not an example, but an exception. Let's see what happens with MS. Ilyushin, even in difficult times, at the very least, but itched, and now silence. Maybe I'm wrong, explain if not difficult.

And what to explain? The collapse of the USSR completely killed civil aviation in the Russian Federation. If the military commander of the USSR tried by all means to compete with counterparts from abroad, because she met them in a real battle (and often won), then the civilian existed in greenhouse conditions, you won’t struggle for efficiency / environmental friendliness / comfort or optimize production and technological effectiveness, but I don’t say anything about saving costs (a rotor in Ukraine, a compressor in the Russian Federation, electronics in Belarus, they put it all together in Uzbekistan), where is it really worth saving? Even what was delivered abroad and even what money (and often fraternal help) really did not take into account the cost of the product and the price was molded from a flashlight. After the collapse of the union, it turned out that civilian aircraft at once became international, duties and customs appeared (which, taking into account production costs and distances, increased the price for units), add the fact that the production of parts has become international, but the rotor is made in Ukraine and nuts to it in the Russian Federation, metal and alloy alloys in Kazakhstan, add all this and calculate the cost of production. And then the classic of the genre: we entered the market (already shared by the capitalists) with an unrealistically expensive product that is absolutely not competitive in its performance characteristics. And if the military initially competitive was able to bite part of the market, and then it was not just that, then the citizen with such a start simply had no chance. Yes, and now notice the citizen is mainly driven by military men, because they have modern technology and money ...

In our USSR, all civilian aircraft were made from unsuccessful bombers. Hence the result. Neither convenience, nor comfort, nor economy ..