Breakthrough of the Serbian defense. Storming belgrade

The beginning of the Austro-German offensive. Fall of belgrade

During September 1915, in order to mislead the Serbian command, the German artillery bombarded the Serbian coast of the Danube and Sava several times. On October 5-6, 1915, actual artillery preparation by the Mackensen armies began with the aim of preparing the crossing. October 7 Austro-German troops, with the support of the Danube flotillastarted the crossing. From Bosnia, the Austro-Hungarian forces attacked Montenegro, constraining its army so that it could not, like during the 1914 campaign, attack the flank of the Austro-German army.

The crossing of the Austro-German troops near Belgrade turned out to be long and full of obstacles, it was necessary to take a well-fortified and favorable for defense, in its natural position, bridgehead. The crossing was hampered by the need to clear the fairways of both rivers from minefields. In addition, a hurricane began, which lasted more than a week. He dispersed and damaged part of the ships and in some places cut off the landing vanguard from the main forces. However, the advanced units were so reinforced that they withstood the Serbian counterattacks without the support of the main forces. An important role in the success of the Austro-German wax was played by heavy artillery, which suppressed most of the Serbian artillery and destroyed the fortifications. A large role in the crossing was also played by the ships of the Danube Flotilla, which supported the landing troops and suppressed the Serbian batteries with fire. The Austro-German troops used searchlights, which helped to mine mines, dazzle the enemy's searchlights at night, illuminate targets for artillery, and covered troops with a light curtain.

Transportation of troops across the Danube

The plan of operations envisaged the transition of the Austro-German across the Drina, Sava and Danube. At the same time, the 3 Army was supposed to cross its right flank, with a force of one and a half divisions, joined by the Bosnian Visegrad group, overcoming the knee formed by Drina and Sava in Machva, as well as forcing Sava with the help of steam ferries under the cover of monitors and armed ships Danube Flotilla. With its center (three divisions of the Austro-Hungarian 14 Corps), on the night of October 3, the 7 Army was to cross the Sava at Progara on ferries and along the military bridge under the guise of the Danube Flotilla ships. On October 7, the troops of the 14 Corps were to erect a pontoon bridge at Bolevtsy. On the left flank, the 26-I Austro-Hungarian division had to cross Sava at Ostruznica to divert the Serbs, and the 22 German reserve corps to force Sava above the Greater Gypsy Island to cover the south-west Serbian capital. German troops were to take part in the capture of Belgrade and to join the 8-m Austro-Hungarian Corps, advancing from Zemlin. An important role at the beginning of the operation was to be played by the Austro-Hungarian Danube Flotilla under the command of 1 captain, rank Karl Lutsich.

The German 11 army had to cross the Danube simultaneously in three columns: at Palanca and Bazias, the 10 reserve corps attacked Ram; at Dunadombo there is the 4 th reserve corps across the Danube island Temestsiget to Kostolaki, and from Kevevara the 3 th reserve corps towards the old Turkish fortress Semendria. Lower down the river near Orsov, the Austrian group of General Foulonn was to operate. Orsov group performed mainly demonstrative task. She had to misinform and forge the Serbian troops. Then she had to establish contact with the Bulgarians and, together with the 1 of the Bulgarian army, occupy the ledge of the Serbian territory in the Danube bend near Kladovo, in order to ensure free navigation on the Danube.

Field Marshal Augusta von Mackensen

The offensive 3 th Austro-Hungarian army. The army of Köwes spent five days on the crossing, as the Serbian army stubbornly defended its capital. Austro-German artillery conducted a powerful artillery preparation. So, at noon on October 6, the heavy artillery of the 8 of the Austro-Hungarian Corps began the preparation of a four-hour hurricane fire from 70 heavy and medium and 90 light guns. This was followed by shrapnel fire, in order to suppress attempts at restoring Serb batteries.

The Austrian corps 8 had to make the longest journey along the water, about 4 km, from the Zemlin region to Belgrade. His headquarters made a mistake in planning and the first echelon of the 59 Infantry Division, instead of the time assigned for the landing in 2 hour 50 minutes. walked to the Serbian coast in 4 hours. And the artillery preparation was completed according to plan exactly at 2 hour. 50 min. Therefore, the Austrian units had to land without the support of artillery. Because of this, and also because of strong Serb resistance, the crossing was difficult. In addition, the rising water in the rivers flooded the island at the mouth of the river. Sava and low-lying parts of the Danube coast, which worsened the landing conditions and did not allow the telegraph cable to be sent to the Serbian coast. The landed vanguard was left without communication and could not inform about the need for artillery support. This led to the fact that the advanced shock battalions suffered significant losses in men and materiel.

Only 9 of October came the steamboats and, following the troops of the 59 Infantry Division, transported the 57 Infantry Division, which allowed the Austro-German troops to finally take control of Belgrade. The strike groups of the Austro-Hungarian troops broke into the city and the fortress of Belgrade from the north, took the citadel and the Vrachar heights.

The 22 German Reserve Corps reached the Sava River in the evening on October 6. Serbian troops were on the heights of Banovo, which so rose above the opposite bank, that approaching the river in the afternoon along the low and strongly swampy left bank of the r. Sava was extremely difficult. Therefore, the troops began to force the river at night. Behind the small islands off the Austrian coast, the pontoons brought up by pioneers (sappers), 10-15 units per each regiment that was being forwarded, were hidden in advance. The landing of troops on the pontoons began after 2 hour. October 7 nights. Already after 15-20 min. the first trains have already landed on the Serbian coast and on the Gypsy island. They were followed by the rest of the troops. While the troops were crossing at night, the losses of the German troops were small, but at dawn, the Serbian artillery intensified and they greatly increased. Having lost up to two-thirds of the pontoons, the German troops were around 8 an hour. in the morning suspended the crossing.

The advance units (approximately one battalion per regiment) had to withstand Serbian counterattacks all day. The Germans and Austrians were saved by the fact that the main forces of the Serbian army had not yet managed to regroup from the Bulgarian direction. Only in the evening the crossing was resumed, but already with heavy losses than on the first day. On October 8, the right-flank 208 th reserve regiment occupied the first line of the Serbian position and went into the rear of the Serbs who defended the Gypsy island, which made them hastily retreat. As a result, the 207 Infantry Regiment was able to capture a serviceable Serbian bridge connecting the Gypsy island with the coast. This facilitated the crossing. Then the German troops launched an assault on the steep Banov Heights. A few hours later, thanks to the strong support of heavy artillery, German troops broke the resistance of the Serbs.

Due to this success 9 October 43-I German reserve division took the suburb of Belgrade - Topchidere. On the same day, after heavy street fighting, Austrian troops took Belgrade. Defending the city, about 5 thousand Serbs perished. Many residents of the capital and people from other places, remembering the excesses of the past Austro-Hungarian invasion, when they did not stand on ceremony with civilians, robbed, raped and killed, left their homes and joined the retreating army. The disaster began. The country collapsed before our eyes.


Thus, the Austro-German troops on the third day of the operation took the Serbian capital - Belgrade. However, the crossing at Belgrade was delayed and was carried out instead of one in three days. The incorrect calculation of the crossing of the Austro-German command could have turned the whole enterprise into failure if it were not for the stubbornness of the Germans who had broken the Serbs with great losses for themselves, as well as the weakness of the Serbian army in the Belgrade sector and the complete superiority of the Austro-German forces in heavy artillery.

Source: Korsun N. Balkan Front of World War 1914-1918

The onset of the 11 of the German army. The crossing of the 11 of the German army was prepared in the spring and summer of 1915. The Austrian sappers carried out reconnaissance of the river, completed the strengthening of positions on its bank, fixed the roads and bridges. Intelligence revealed that the section from the mouth of the river is more convenient for crossing. Karas do Baziasa, which allowed the concealed concentration of troops and boats. The crossing was planned at once in four places: the mouth of the r. Karasa, Snake Island, estuary Nera and Bazias. It was planned to build a bridge using Snake Island.

All these places have been carefully studied and prepared for the crossing taking into account weather conditions, the state of the water level and the likely actions of the Serbian troops. The mouths of the Karas and Nera rivers were cleared of sediments and mines, and their fairway was submerged by subversive works so that boats and pontoons could pass there. In addition, the engineering services prepared a dense network of roads in the places of the initial location of the troops, put signs for the troops and set up observation posts. A special feature of the landing of troops in this area was a hurricane, which interrupted regular shipping for several days and interfered with sweeping operations.

Before the start of the operation, the Austrian sappers raised eight barges that had sunk beyond the Ponavica island, and a ship sailed by the Serbian artillery at Art. Moldavians. Barges with great effort raised and fixed, putting them off the coast of the island of Ponyavitsa under the guise of a forest and bushes. The steamer was also raised and transported to the island of Ponavitsa, covered with trees. In addition, the Germans at night moved around the 100 semi-pontoons, which were lowered along the r. Karasu to its mouth, and then on the river. The Danube to the Snake Island, where they were dragged to the shore and covered. The crossing was also provided by Austrian rowing ships, divisional and hull German bridge ferries.

The immediate goal of the German troops after the crossing was the capture of the area of ​​Goritsy and the massif of Orlyak (south of Goritsy), and then the border of Klitschevan, Zatonie. The advanced troops carried with them ammunition for five days, food for six days and large stocks of engineering equipment. It was a very sensible decision, since the elements that were clearing up led to a break in the crossing.

Thus, the Austrians and the Germans carefully prepared for the crossing of the water barrier. Moreover, all these preparations were made so covertly that the October 7 ferry turned out to be unexpected for the Serbs.

6 October 1915 German artillery began shelling the Serbian positions and by the morning of October 7 the fire was brought to the degree of a hurricane. Despite the powerful fire of almost 40 batteries, which lasted until the landing of the forward echelon of the 10 Corps, advancing from Snake Island, the Serbs, after the Germans moved the artillery fire deep into Rama. By the evening of October 7, two regiments of the 103 Infantry Division were transferred.

Then the German troops had to go through difficult days. 8 and 9 October was pouring rain, which turned into a storm. Until October 17 lasted a hurricane. At this time, all the means of crossing, except the steamer, were inactive. A number of boats was damaged by hurricane wind. At the same time, the Serbs were firing artillery fire, and went on the counter, trying to throw the Germans into the river. The ship with great difficulty completed the transfer of troops 103-th division. Only additional stocks of ammunition, food and various equipment allowed the Germans to survive. The storm ended only on October 17 and the remaining troops of the 10 of the German corps were transferred to the other side. October 21 Germans put two bridges.

Thus, careful preparation of the operation allowed the 11 of the German army to successfully force the river, despite the 8-day hurricane. The Germans, with the help of powerful crossing means, without building a bridge, transferred such large and well-equipped units that they could repel all enemy counterattacks and hold out until the main forces approached.

Further offensive Mackensen troops

The Serbian command began a regrouping of forces from the Bulgarian direction to the north with the aim of creating a strong defense on the way of the Austro-German troops. Austro-German troops, who lingered at the crossing more than planned, by October 18 were able to advance on the southern bank of the r. Danube only 10 km. The 19 th Austro-Hungarian corps, advancing on the Bosnian direction, overcoming the stubborn resistance of the Montenegrin army, also advanced slowly.

On October 21, the avant-gardes of Mackensen’s armies were on the Ripanj line, Caliste, and the Austro-Hungarian troops, who had crossed the Lower Drina, reached Shabac. The onset of the Austro-German troops went with great difficulty, especially due to the lack of communication lines. The available roads were spoiled by the autumn rains. The Austro-German troops were no longer delayed by the resistance of the Serbian troops, but by the dirt and the roads that were filled with people.

Especially difficult was the 3 th Austro-Hungarian army of Köwess, which is worse than the 11 th army, overcame the resistance of the Serbs. The German High Command offered the Austrians to strengthen the 3 Army at the expense of troops from the Italian Front. However, the Austrians were afraid of a new offensive by the Italian army and refused to the Germans. Indeed, the 18 of October began the third offensive of the Italian army (the third battle of the Isonzo). However, the Italians could not help Serbia. All the attacks of the Italian divisions crashed against the powerful defense of the Austrian army. The Austrians were ready for an enemy attack. Italians put a lot of soldiers, but advanced slightly. In November, the Italian army launched the fourth offensive against the Isonzo. Fierce fighting continued until December, all attempts by the Italian army were unsuccessful. For the breakthrough of strong Austrian defense, which took place in the highlands, the Italians had catastrophically little heavy artillery.

On the left flank of the Austro-German Army Group Mackensen, the situation was also difficult. The weak Austrian group of Fulonna, located at Orsov, failed to force the Danube at the beginning of the operation. As a result, the Austrians could not immediately provide the junction between the 11 of the German and 1 of the Bulgarian armies, and the transportation of various supplies and materials along the Danube to Bulgaria. And the Bulgarian army depended on supplies from Austria and Germany.

Only on October 23, the Austrians near the city of Orsov were able to organize powerful artillery preparation, with the participation of 420-mm guns. Hurricane artillery fire destroyed the Serbian fortifications. Under the cover of strong artillery and machine-gun fire (the width of the Danube at Orsov allowed effective machine-gun fire on the other bank), Austrian troops were able to force the river and gain a foothold. After the arrival of reinforcements, the Austrians continued the offensive and captured the necessary bridgehead. Thus, with the help of strong artillery and machine-gun fire, the Austro-Hungarian group of Fulonna was able to break the resistance of the Serbian forces and force the Danube.

Bulgaria enters the war

October 15 Bulgarian troops crossed the border of Serbia. At first, the Bulgarian troops met with fierce resistance from the Serbs and advanced rather slowly. The Bulgarians for a long time unsuccessfully attacked the well-fortified positions of the Serbian army on the r. Timok and north of Pirot. But on the left flank, Bulgarian troops were able to raid the Vranja station, where they destroyed the railway and telegraph, cutting off Serbia’s connection with the Allied forces in Salonika.

By October 21, the Bulgarian Army 1 continued to storm the Serbian positions. The right wing and center of the Bulgarian army was on the river. Timok between Zaichar and Knyazhevatz, and the left wing fought at Pirot. Only October 25 Bulgarian troops forced the Serbs to withdraw for Timok. The 2-I Bulgarian army easily reached the area of ​​Vranja and Kumanov, and with its left flank it intercepted the r. Vardar in the area of ​​Veles. Thus, the Bulgarian troops broke the link of the Serbian army and the allied expeditionary corps in Salonika. This put the bulk of the Serbian army at risk.

To be continued ...

Comments

[parusnik]

Bulgaria enters the warTogether with the best "friends" of the Slavs ... Germans and Turks ... They call it the Patriotic War ...

[mishastich]

"Brothers".

[pytar]

There is nothing to be surprised at. Serbia entered the list of Bulgaria's enemies back in 1885, when it vilely attacked Bulgaria's back, while as soon as the newly created Bulgarian army stood at the border with Turkey, awaiting the invasion of the Turks. This was the first war between Bulgaria and Serbia, and in it the Serbs were indisputably aggressive. In this war, the Bulgarians utterly defeated the Serbs. Only the ultimatum of Austria-Hungary forced the Bulgarians to stop their advance towards Belgrade. During the Bolkan War in 1912-1913, while the Bulgarian army crushed the Turks and reached 30 km. from Constantinople, Serbia and Greece once again showed themselves not in the best side. Having concluded a secret treaty among themselves and violating the general union treaty, they occupied Macedonia, which did not await international arbitration on the arising disputes. The jackal Romania, whose troops attacked encircled Bulgaria from the north across the Danube, also joined them. Ksati, until that moment in their entire history Bulgaria and Romania had never fought each other. Bleached and surrounded on all sides, Bulgaria was defeated, although even in such a catastrophic situation, the Bulgarian troops managed to beat the "allies" well. After this war, called the Inter-Allied War (1913), Serbia, Greece and Romania occupied large territories densely and for centuries inhabited with the Bulgarian population. The territories on which Bulgaria was created in 1878 after the Russian-Turkish War of Liberation under the Treaty of San Stefano between Turkey and RUSSIA! It is quite understandable that for Bulgaria the RELEASE of the spoiled part of the Bulgarian people has become the primary and basic national idea! For this, the Bulgarians, consider their entry into the First World War, it is natural and call this war the SPEEDING WAR OF LIBERATION! The Bulgarians did not set themselves any goals of conquest and did not have the task of conquering territories and lands unpopulated with the Bulgarian population. For that, Bulgaria did not accept Russia's proposal on compensation from Turkish territory if it enters the war on the side of the Entente. So, WWI for Bulgaria is really a just war!

[V.ic]

Quote: pytar

So, WWI is really a fair war for Bulgaria!

To shoot those who for your freedom from the Turks shed their blood on the Balkan mountains, you call this a just war? Then those of you who, together with the Nazis, shed the blood of the Serbs in WWII, probably "holy people"?

[Aleksander]

Quote: pytar

Serbia and Greece didn’t show up in a good way. Having concluded the secrets of the treaty among themselves and violating the general union treaty, they occupied Macedonia that did not wait for international arbitration for the arising disputes. The jackal Romania, whose troops attacked surrounded Bulgaria from the north through the Danube, also joined them.

Enemies are right all around - Serbia, Greece, Romania, and Turkey, but Bulgaria is white-fluffy and the most fair
"You don't ask yourself the question, why is it that your friends so often turn into enemies? After all, it cannot be that everyone is bad (!), But only you are good? So ... Until you understand that in many ways you yourself create enemies, nothing good will happen for you. You will continue to "produce" enemies for yourself and you will continue to reproach and scold them for betrayal and for all sorts of sins! "(FROM)

[97110]

Quote: pytar

Bulgarians did not set any conquest goals

With the German Tsar? In, the "brother" gives.

[stoqn477]

Quote: parusnik

Bulgaria enters the warTogether with the best "friends" of the Slavs ... Germans and Turks ... They call it the Patriotic War ...

If you got hit on the back of them, you would not say so. In the Balkans, who are Slavs and who are not, does not matter. We have problems with each other 1000 years ago, not only out of 100.

[vrach]

Maybe so - 477. Only in your problems with each other to find the one to blame is difficult. And what about strategic planning, how is it that even Romania with whom the Bulgarians did not fight wanted to pinch a bit of territory? Around enemies? And maybe all the same brain turn on? Or at least respect and the desire to comply with the rules. It is interesting to us that Bulgaria is still acting to its own detriment - it refused from the South Stream, from the pipeline to Thessaloniki, it also didn’t work with the nuclear power plant. You bratushki first enemies themselves.

[pytar]

The answer to your question is ... geography. Just look at the map and understand what the speech is about. Bulgaria is the center of the Balkans, and the center of conflict. The Cross Way, where all the Great Forces had and have interests. Due to the geopolitical situation in Europe from 1978 to 1918, neither Serbia, nor Greece, nor Romania could expand territorially in other directions, except for Bulgaria. Although, for Serbia, the natural direction was in the northwest, where the territories inhabited by ethnically closer Slavs from the Serbo-Croatian ethnic group, then part of Austria-Hungary. For Romania, the same territories were Transylvania and Moldova, also under the control of Austria-Hungary and Russia. And for Greece, it was the coast of Asia Minor and the islands of the Aegean, which are part of the Ottoman Empire. It is clear that for all of the Balkan states it would be more realistic to bite as much territory as possible with Bulgaria, which was weaker than the aforementioned Empires, and, in addition to its geographical position, united completely different countries of conquering interests. Those. all pre-deliveries, so that Serbia, Greece and Romania, united against Bulgaria were obvious. By such a move, some Great Powers also encouraged them. Fact. As for the South Stream, you are very mistaken. Not everything is as simple with him as they say in Russian media. I myself and in the service have worked and am working on this project. So I’m in the know, for sure! But the topic is not there, so I’ll refrain from commenting.

[pytar]

Alexandersorry! My response was to your comment. Just forgot to click on the / quote / button. Ksati, I see what you write under the Romanian flag! So can you answer me, when in the history of Friendship was Romanian? And why did Russia in 1878 surrender Romania to Northern Dobruji, despite the fact that Romania did not want to eat the land, but wanted Bessarabia? Can you answer why, in 1913 / Inter-Union War / Romania attacked Bulgaria, with the fact that the state’s wallpapers had never fought among themselves and had no territorial claims to one another?

[Aleksander]

Quote: pytar

Ksati, I see what you write under the Romanian flag! So can you answer me, when in the history of Friendship was Romanian?

Moldavian flag, I am writing from the Bessarabian province of the Republic of Ingushetia. Still answer my (yours two days ago) questions.

[pytar]

Clear. The flags here are small and did not figure it out first. The answer to your questions was a little higher ... higher than my previous comment. Probably not seen. "The answer to your question is given by ... geography. Just look at the map and you will understand what the speech is about. Bulgaria is the center of the Bolkans, and the center of conflicts. Crossroads ..." Asked you questions too! I will be glad to know your answers or opinion. WITH

[vrach]

Let's still Disraili remember? The English Prime Minister who was the FIRST killed the plans for the implementation of Great Bulgaria after the 1887-1888 war. I will repeat the FIRST, thus diminishing Skobelev's achievements. A Russian general who prepared the Bulgarian army well after that. And Pitar? Let's say together the Anglo-Saxons are scoundrels and the root cause of Bulgarian misfortunes. BUT? Or are you now the Anglo-Saxons more Slavs?

[pytar]

Dear vrach! Respect to you from me! The fact is not subject to any doubt.that the REASON FOR THE BULGARIAN TERRORISM IS EXACTLY THE ANGLOSAX! They are the eternal enemies of all Slavs! Divide and rule! So rule the world! But that world is already changing! Not long for them to rule!

[Rastas]

Dear expert on the history of the Balkans. Before hanging labels, read the book by Zadokhin and Nizovsky "The Powder Magazine of Europe." There, everything is easily explained why Bulgaria turned out to be an enemy of Serbia. Everyone there was "good".

[97110]

Quote: stoqn477

If you got hit on the back of them, you would not say so

This "brother" writes in Runet! Fuck! In reality, they don't see the shores. Tell the Germans about the "blow on the back." They are the authors of your national catastrophe in the person of your tsar-father. If not for scrap, look at the behavior of ukroamekontsev for the reporting 2 years. Again. Don't you recognize yourself at the beginning of the 20th century? Only Americans instead of Germans.

[pytar]

stoqn477 right! And you Afigey, as you want. Clearly, you are not happy with the facts, but this is your problem. Sorry.

[pytar]

Quote: V.ic

Quote: pytar

So, WWI is really a fair war for Bulgaria!

To shoot those who for your freedom from the Turks shed their blood on the Balkan mountains, you call this a just war? Then those of you who, together with the Nazis, shed the blood of the Serbs in WWII, probably "holy people"?

Did you happen to study at an American college? / joke / Since you change the CAUSE from the EFFECT! In 1877 Russia came to Bolkanov with a LIBERATION MISSION! It was a FAIR WAR! And in 1915-16, Russia came to Bolkanov to help OUR ENEMIES! Those are our enemies who a year ago OCCUPIED THE LAND FOR A THOUSAND YEARS POPULATED WITH THE BULGARIANS! Those lands that RUSSIA ITSELF FREE from the Turks in 1878! Look at the map, where is Bulgaria, about which Russia signed an agreement with the Ottomans in San Stefano! When, in general, in history until 1878, Dobruzhda was Romanian ??? Never! How did the population in Macedonia and Thrace become self-determined, on PLEBISCITA in 1870 about belonging to the Bulgarian exarchy? This is all Bulgaria, whether you like it or not! I'll tell you how I answered in another discussion on a similar topic: "Gentlemen ... I am Russophile to the marrow of my bones and love Russia, but if you come to my house to kill my children, parents and loved ones, I will give a fuck what you ... Russians or Romanians, Turks or Serbs! I will defend myself and fight with all my might! " Clear? And the topic of WWII is also interesting and also controversial. But here is the topic of WWII.

[vladimirvn]

Russians are really sick with the "idea of ​​Slavism" people. They have been worn with her for several centuries. And with our brothers Slavs, everything is much simpler. They don't even remember that they are Slavs. And if they do, they are ashamed of it and try to hide this belonging away. Where it is profitable, there is truth. They are not like that, this is the situation. They are not bad, they are all bad.

[pytar]

Quote: vladimirvn

Russians are really sick with the "idea of ​​Slavism" people. They have been worn with her for several centuries. And with our brothers Slavs, everything is much simpler. They don't even remember that they are Slavs. And if they do, they are ashamed of it and try to hide this belonging away. Where it is profitable, there is truth. They are not like that, this is the situation. They are not bad, they are all bad.

Vladimir, I suggest that you deliberately use such a concept as "the idea of ​​Slavism" instead of Pan-Slavism. I think there is no need to explain what Pan-Slavism is and why it is developing in the Russian Empire after 1830. You yourself can find information about this. I don’t know what you mean by “the idea of ​​Slavism”? After all, there are many Slavic peoples and they have different ideas and understandings, including about "Slavism"! Russia does not have a monopoly over these ideas, nor does it have a monopoly over the idea of ​​Pan-Slavism. Depending on how one or another action is to be justified, states "adopt" one or the other idea. It's the same with Russia. Unfortunately for its entire history, the Slavs are often disjointed and very often the Slavs are at war with each other. This is not only a "Slavic disease", but the majority of other Mega-ethnic groups have the same thing. I do not share your opinion that the Slavs have forgotten that they are Slavs. Neither Poles, nor Czechs, nor Serbs, nor Slovaks, nor Bulgarians, nor Croats have forgotten! The conflicts between him do not prevent the Slavs from being aware of them as such. And I will tell you frankly that I do not think any of the Slavs are "more Slavic" or "more correct" than others. It's just that we, somehow by nature, lack the ability to understand each other. Understand and accept a different point of view. Make compromises. Look for something that brings us together, and do not get hung up on what separates us. It is impossible to change history as it was - good or bad! You can't change what happened! But we all need to look for common points of contact and common ways to resolve conflicts! Solving this problem, in the future it will probably be possible, some form of common Slavic obedience! Which is in the interests of our countries and peoples! Whether we will be reasonable enough to understand this or not, I do not know. But as the first step in this direction, I believe that we ALL should stop reproaching each other and SHOULD STOP INCREASING HATE BETWEEN US! Even in our comments here, we must respect and avoid insults and swearing! BECAUSE WE HAVE ENEMIES IN COMMON! In general, I want to apologize here and shas, ​​if someone emotionally offended on an ethnic or religious principle.

[vladimirvn]

Quote: pytar

BECAUSE OUR ENEMIES ARE COMMON!

Let me ask you, who do you consider our common enemies?

[pytar]

Quote: vladimirvn

Quote: pytar

BECAUSE OUR ENEMIES ARE COMMON!

Let me ask you, who do you consider our common enemies?

The supra-national megacorporations and the forces behind it. All those who want to make a managed biomass out of humanity. Those who contribute to the coming of the Antichrist and want to drown humanity into impenetrable darkness. Anglo-Saxons, as the main executors of the will of the same Antichrist. Although the Anglo-Saxons themselves, are the subject of manipulation. They are one of the means to achieve the goals of the Antichrist, and I look at them at some level, as at his sacrifice. I have nothing against them, as peoples or as people. (I am writing the Antichrist as a conditional concept.) And their fifth column, which has penetrated in our societies.

[Rastas]

Well. Before that, they wrote good thoughts, and then they rolled down to the Antichrist. Who reported to you that the Anglo-Saxons hired the Antichrist?))))) Everything is quite simpler. England, along with the Netherlands, experienced the revolution before Europe in the 17th century, as a result of which they switched from feudalism to capitalism, which had a beneficial effect on the economy. Holland was later defeated, and England became the sole leader, a manufactory of the world, as it was called. And all of her confrontations are upholding and conquering new markets for their goods. Learn the English economic thought of Smith, Ricardo, Mill, then you will understand.

[pytar]

Rastas, you still haven't said anything like that, which was unknown to me before. "Good" or "bad" you think are my thoughts, this is your subjective opinion. By your criterion, I should rate your thoughts as "bad" and that you have slipped into a purely materialistic explanation. And we are talking about much more complex processes. Maybe all the same it is worth pondering, is everything that happens to the world so simple? Maybe not everything is about the economy and not everything is so primitive? Maybe the eternal struggle between the Forces of Darkness and the Forces of Light is really taking place? After all, modern science is already beginning to hint at the existence of the Soul and the presence, some kind of Higher tuning over everything that we see! The topic is interesting, but hardly worth discussing here. In short ... I wish you health and education!

[Rastas]

Yes, I consider myself a pragmatist. And just the opinion that the Anglo-Saxons are agents of the Antichrist is just a very simplified idea of ​​the processes going on in the world. And frankly, better than Marx, no one has explained these processes. In short, look for class interests in any war.

[vladimirvn]

roekty-rf-v-strane-byli-ostanovleny-v-polzu-ssha.html

Quote: pytar

Anglo-Saxons, as the main executors of the will of the same Antichrist.

Well, yes, and here are the facts to confirm your words: "Prime Minister of Bulgaria: Russian energy projects in the country were stopped in favor of the United States."
Russian energy projects in Bulgaria - the Burgas-Alexandroupolis oil pipeline, the Belene nuclear power plant and the South Stream gas pipeline - have been halted in favor of the United States. This was announced today at a conference of the American Chamber of Commerce by the Prime Minister of Bulgaria Boyko Borisov.
“We have recognized the military wing of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, we have stopped the three largest Russian projects, we are stopping Russian aircraft over the sea,” the Bulgarian prime minister said. In his opinion, when there are problems, Bulgaria and the United States should be together. "Together we are one whole, we are friends and that is why I can speak to you in this way," he added at a meeting with American diplomats and businessmen. Http://oko-planet.su/politik/newsday/296103-premer -bolgarii-energop

[pytar]

Why are you surprised? Bulgaria after the collapse of the Social Bloc, was in the category of defeated countries. The United States introduced its administration and occupied the country. Bulgaria cannot lead any independent policy, as it is a protectorate of the West. Everything is under gesture control. Intelligence services track and suppress any attempt at dissent or pro-Russian. Pro-Russian movements (and there are many such in Bulgaria) are under constant pressure. We were the most faithful ally of the USSR. And the Bulgarians still remain Russfils in their overwhelming minority. For this, the West carefully monitors that the situation does not go beyond control. A powerful, highly efficient system monitors everything.

[vladimirvn]

We are the same, sort of appointed defeated, but somehow we did not agree with this. I do not believe that in your situation, nothing can be done in legal, legal ways. If there are a lot of people like you, why can't you hear and see?

Quote: pytar

Bulgaria after the collapse of the Social Bloc, was in the category of defeated countries

[pytar]

Quote: vladimirvn

We are the same, sort of appointed defeated, but somehow we did not agree with this. I do not believe that in your situation, nothing can be done in legal, legal ways. If there are a lot of people like you, why can't you hear and see?

Quote: pytar

Bulgaria after the collapse of the Social Bloc, was in the category of defeated countries

Well, Russia has been appointed many times as defeated, but always mistaken! I can’t understand why the enemies of Russia do not read history! You know ... There is a very active protest action against the US and NATO in Bulgaria. Massive manifestations, rallies and protests, statements by Bulgarian social activists, scientists and politicians in support of Russia are constantly available! The West understands perfectly well that the Bulgarians will not go against Russia, and that Bulgaria is the weakest chain in the network of anti-Russian activities of the NOTO members. The fact that these events are not reflected in the Bulgarian media is understandable, but I constantly follow the Russian media too! It is surprising that in the majority of them, not a word ... At that time, materials with an openly anti-Bulgarian orientation were constantly published. We are talking about rude articles and publications sewn from "white ropes", directed not so much against the Bulgarian authorities, but against the Bulgarian people. The question arises - how "Russian" media is really? Who controls them, who sets the tone for them and sets the tasks? In Russian forums and networks, materials directed against Bulgaria abound! If there is some kind of objectionable comment or material trying to give a different opinion, the State Department trolls will immediately attack him! Mashab is using anti-Bulgarian propaganda in the Russian language net! I understand what this is about ... They are trying to form negative public opinion among Russians. They failed to turn the Bulgarians against the Russians, as, for example, they did with the Ukrainians, and they are trying to turn the Russians against the Bulgarians! Yes, to provoke the same response from the Bulgarians to the Russians! Information war! Here on the site "Military Review" is the same! Primitive, atavistic trolling to the point of dullness!

[pytar]

To the enemies of the Slavs, I want to say Yasnenko: With the acquisition of Macedonia's independence, in the late 90s, ALL controversial issues between Bulgaria and Serbia have disappeared! The age-old "Apple of Discord" - Macedonia, got the opportunity to decide its own destiny! We consider this to be fair and natural! Bulgaria was the first to recognize the Republic of Macedonia as an independent state! At the household level for a long time, the relations between our peoples are friendly. We hope that for the Slavic countries and peoples on Bolkanov, the time finally comes for fruitful cooperation!

[vladimirvn]

pytar Thanks for the reasoned discussion.

[pytar]

Quote: 97110

Quote: pytar

Bulgarians did not set any conquest goals

With the German Tsar? In, the "brother" gives.

And then the king? As far as I understand the genealogy of other Balkan states, kings and kings were non-native. True, I was not interested in the Serbian Peter I Karadzhorzhevich. I was always wondering why the Russian Emperor Alexander III, forcing the Bulgarian Prince Alexander I Batemberg to abdicate and put Ferdinand of Sax-Koburgotsky as a result! After all, Alexander Betemberg, served in the Russian army and is a relative of the Russian emperor! More Russophile Prince for Bulgaria than Batenberg hardly could Russia find! They removed their Batenberg and got the Russophobe Ferdinand! But whatever it was, we did not choose our Kings after 1878.

[Bagatur]

Because Russia believed that Alexander I should beat the puppet and do everything that was ordered to him from Petersburg! Russian diplomats in Bulgaria behaved as in the Transdanubian province, this led to a conflict not only with the prince and with a large part of the Bulgarian society. So Zakhary Stoyanov, one of the organizers of the uprising in 1876 and supervised the training of the Union in 1885, said: "When the Turks hit us in the face, it hurt, but when they did it," the liberators and the Slav brothers, it is impossible to endure ... "! And this man was a Russophile politics turned him into an enemy. Another Bulgarians of the era told the Russian ambassador: "Vy liberated us from the Turks, who will liberate us from you now?" After 1885 and the victorious war with Serbia, Russia made a bet on the overthrow of Prince Alexander I, too rebellious and thought about the interest of the Bulgarians more than the Russians ... On August 8/9, 1886 the Russophile officers (agents of Russia) overthrew the prince and he left the country. And here the story is most confusing. The Russian empress, but ... Alexander III will not accept "sowing". Russia offered the Bulgarians one Georgian, Nikolai Mingreli, he sold her his principality and lived on a pension from Russia! and the Caucasian subject will imagine the Bulgarian prince! And then, is it not by chance that Ferdinand was hitting a nativity scene in Vienna ... Russia broke off its relations with Bulgaria, and was restored already in 1894 ... Russia with her bad policy made Coburg-Gotha a Bulgarian monarch!

[pytar]

Respect Bagatur! Thanks for the clarifications!

[moskowit]

You see, the author's presentation of dry historical facts provoked a fierce discussion of supporters and opponents. It is very good that respected commentators so vividly, sometimes overly, discuss historical issues. But it is not very correct that the comrades look at the ongoing actions of a hundred years ago from today's position, designing, as it were, the situation and circumstances of that time into today's reality.

[pytar]

Quote: Rastas

Dear expert on the history of the Balkans. Before hanging labels, read the book by Zadokhin and Nizovsky "The Powder Magazine of Europe." There, everything is easily explained why Bulgaria turned out to be an enemy of Serbia. Everyone there was "good".

Do you know how many studies, books, studios have been written on these issues? Thousands? Why, read the author's first instance quoted by you? I actually read hundreds of different scientific studies on the topic. But you know ... I take everything for mixing and compare with those facts that are indisputable, obvious! And there are quite a few such facts! Some people like it, some don't. Not my problem. So I make up my opinion. Ksati, I don't put labels on anyone, even though some "history experts" have some pretty funny "stanovas" in the comments here! Come on! Let it be fun! I myself have no claim to "an expert on history". You probably thought so. It happens! People are wrong.