Military Review

"Standing on the Ugra River" and the end of the Golden Horde yoke. 1480

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"Standing on the Ugra River" and the end of the Golden Horde yoke. 1480



In the memory of the Russian people a difficult period stories, called the "Horde yoke", began in the XIII century. tragic events on the rivers Kalka and City, lasted almost 250 years, but triumphantly ended on the Ugra River in 1480 g.

The significance of the Kulikovo battle of 1380 was always given great attention, and the Moscow Prince Dmitry Ivanovich, who received an honorary prefix to the name "Don" after the battle, is a national hero. But other historical characters showed no less heroism, and some events, perhaps undeservedly forgotten, are comparable in their significance with the battle on the Don. The events that put an end to the Horde yoke in 1480 are known in the historical literature under the general title "Standing on the Ugra" or "Ugorschina." They represented a chain of battles on the border of Russia between the troops of the great Moscow Prince Ivan III and Khan Bolshoy Orda Akhmat.


The battle on the river Ugra, which put an end to the Horde yoke.
Miniature from the Facial Chronicle. XVI century.

In 1462, the Moscow Grand Prince throne was inherited by the eldest son of Vasily II the Dark Ivan. As the leader of the foreign policy of the Moscow principality, Ivan III knew what he wanted: to be the sovereign of all Russia, that is, to unite all the lands of the northeast under his rule and to end the Horde addiction. The grand duke went to this goal all his life and I must say successfully.


Sovereign of All Russia, Ivan III
Vasilyevich the Great.

Titulnik. XVII century. By the end of the fifteenth century, the formation of the main territory of the Russian centralized state was almost completed. All the capitals of the specific principalities of North-Eastern Russia bowed their heads in front of Moscow: in 1464, the Yaroslavl principality was annexed, and in 1474 - the Rostov one. Soon the same fate befell Novgorod: in 1472 partially, and in 1478 finally, Ivan III crossed out the separatist tendencies of a part of the Novgorod boyars and liquidated the sovereignty of the Novgorod feudal republic. The main symbol of Novgorod liberty - the veche bell was removed from them and sent to Moscow.
The historical words spoken by Ivan III: “Our state of the grand dukes is this: I will not ring the bell in our father in Novogorod, there will be no landowner, but we will keep our state gifts” [1], a motto of Russian rulers for several centuries ahead.


Map. Ivan's campaigns III.

While the Muscovite state was growing stronger and stronger, the Golden Horde had already broken up into several independent state entities that did not always peacefully coexist with each other. First, the lands of Western Siberia with the center in the city of Ching-Tura (now Tyumen) were separated from it. In 40-s. on the territory between the Volga and the Irtysh north of the Caspian Sea, an independent Nogai Horde was formed with the center in the city of Saraichik. A little later, Kazan (1438) and Crimean (1443) arose on the lands of the former Mongol empire around the borders of its successor, the Great Horde, and in 60. - Kazakh, Uzbek and Astrakhan Khanate. The throne of the Golden Horde kingdom and the title of the Great Khan was in the hands of Akhmat, whose power extended to the vast territories between the Volga and the Dnieper.

During this period, the relationship between the uniting North-Eastern Russia and the decaying Horde was uncertain. And in 1472, Ivan III finally stopped paying tribute to the Horde. Akhmat Khan’s campaign in 1480 was the last attempt to return Russia to a position subordinate to the Horde.

For the campaign was chosen the right time, when Ivan III was in a tight ring of enemies. In the north, in the Pskov region, the Livonian Order robbed, whose troops, under the leadership of the master von der Borch, captured vast territories in the north of the country.

From the west, Polish King Casimir IV threatened with war. The confusion that arose within the state was directly connected with the Polish threat. Novgorod boyars, relying on the help of Casimir and the Livonians, organized a plot to bring Novgorod under the rule of foreigners. At the head of the conspiracy was Archbishop Theophilus, who enjoyed great influence among Novgorodians. In addition, in Moscow, the brothers of Ivan III were revolted by specific princes Andrei Bolshoi and Boris Volotsky, demanding an increase in the territory of their estates and an increase in their influence on government. Both rebel princes asked for help from Casimir, and he promised them full support.

The news of the new campaign of the Horde reached Moscow in the last days of May 1480. In the Typographical Chronicle of the beginning of the invasion it was said: a single duma with Kazimer, the king of bo and led him to the Grand Duke ... ”[2].

After receiving news of the Horde’s speech, the Grand Duke was to respond in a diplomatic and military manner.

The creation of a coalition with the Crimean Khanate against the Great Horde began with Ivan III shortly before the invasion began. 16 April 1480 Moscow Embassy, ​​headed by Prince I.I. Zvenigorod-Zventsom went to the Crimea. In Bakhchisarai, the Moscow ambassador signed a mutual assistance agreement with Khan Mengli-Giray. The Russian-Crimean alliance had a defensive-offensive character in relation to Casimir and a defensive in relation to Akhmat. “And on Ahmad the king,” wrote the Crimean Khan to Ivan III, to be with you and me in one. If King Akhmat will come to me, and tobe my brother, Grand Duke Ivan, let my princes go to the horde with the lancers and princes. And then Ahmat the king and I, Mengli-Girei the king, should go to the king Ahmat, or let go of his brother with his people ”[3].

The alliance with Mengli Giray was concluded, but the complexity of the situation on the border of Crimea and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, as well as the relative weakness of Mengli Giray as an ally, did not allow hoping to prevent Horde aggression only through diplomatic means. Therefore, for the defense of the country, Ivan III adopted a series of actions and military ones.


Fragment of the diorama "The Great Standing on the River Ugra". Diorama museum. Kaluga region, Dzerzhinsky district, p. Palaces, Vladimirsky skete of the Kaluga St. Tikhonova desert.

By the beginning of the Akhmat invasion, there was a deeply echeloned system of defensive installations on the southern borders of Moscow State. This notch feature consisted of fortified cities, numerous notches and earthen ramparts. In its creation, all possible protective geographical features of the terrain were used: ravines, swampy swamps, lakes, and especially rivers. The main line of defense of the southern borders stretched along the Oka. This part of the Zasechnaya line was called “Oka coastal discharge”.

The service for the protection of the Oka boundary was introduced by Ivan III in compulsory duty. Here, to protect the borders of the principality, the peasants were taken in turn from not only neighboring but also distant villages. During the Horde invasions, this foot militia was to withstand the first onslaught and keep the enemy on the frontier frontier until the main forces approached. The principles of the defense of the line were also developed in advance by the military administration of the Grand Duke. The surviving “Order to the Ugric Voivods” is vividly shown by [4].


Fragment of the diorama "The Great Standing on the River Ugra". Diorama museum. Kaluga region, Dzerzhinsky district, p. Palaces, Vladimirsky skete of the Kaluga St. Tikhonova desert.

To help the troops carrying a permanent service in the southern "Ukraine", in late May - early June, the Grand Duke sent a governor to the Oka area with armed forces. The son of Ivan III Ivan the Young was dressed up in Serpukhov. The brother of the Moscow prince Andrei Menshoi went to Tarusa to prepare the city for defense and organize resistance to the Tatars. In addition to them, in the Russian chronicles, as one of the leaders of the defense of Zasechnaya, the distant relative of Ivan III, Prince Vasily of Verey, is mentioned.

The measures taken by the Grand Duke proved timely. Soon, separate enemy patrols appeared on the right bank of the Oka. This fact is reflected in the chronicle: “But the Tatars who came to the captivity of Besputu and Otidosh” [5]. The first blow, apparently made for the purpose of reconnaissance, was struck on one of the right-bank Prioksky Russian volosts, not covered by a water barrier from attacks from the steppe. But seeing that the Russian troops occupied the defense on the opposite bank, the enemy departed.

The rather slow advancement of the main forces of Akhmat allowed the Russian command to determine the possible direction of the main attack of Akhmat. The breakthrough of the Zasechnaya line should have passed either between Serpukhov and Kolomna, or below Kolomna. The nomination of the grand duke's regiment under the leadership of the governor Prince DD Kholmsky to the place of a possible meeting with the enemy ended in July 1480.

Specific facts, which are reflected in the chronicle sources, indicate the decisiveness of Akhmat’s goals. Akhmat's army, in all likelihood, included all the available military forces of the Great Horde at that time. According to the chronicles, his nephew Kasim made a speech with Akhmat, and six other princes, whose names are not preserved in the Russian chronicles. Comparing with those forces that the Horde had exhibited before (for example, the invasion of Edigei in 1408, Mazovshi in 1451), it can be concluded about the numerical strength of the Akhmat army. We are talking about 80 – 90 thousands of warriors. Naturally, this figure is not accurate, but it gives a general idea of ​​the scale of the invasion.

The timely deployment of the main forces of the Russian troops on the defensive lines did not allow Akhmat to cross the Oka on its central sector, which would allow the Horde to be in the shortest direction to Moscow. Khan turned his troops to the Lithuanian possessions, where he could successfully solve the double task: first, to unite with the Casimir regiments, and second, to rush into the territory of the Moscow principality from the Lithuanian lands without any particular difficulties. There is direct news about this in the Russian chronicles: “... go to Lithuanian lands, bypassing the Oka River, and expecting the king to help or force” [6].

Akhmat’s maneuver along the Oka line was promptly detected by Russian guard outposts. In this connection, the main forces were transferred from Serpukhov and Tarusa to the west, to Kaluga and directly to the bank of the Ugra River. There were also sent shelves, going to reinforce the grand duke's troops from various Russian cities. For example, the forces of the Tver principality [7], led by voivods Mikhail Kholmsky and Joseph Dorogobuzh, arrived to Ugra. To get ahead of the Horde, before they reached the shores of the Ugra, to occupy and strengthen all the places convenient for the crossing - such a task faced the Russian troops.

Akhmat's movement towards Ugra was fraught with great danger. First, this river, as a natural obstacle, was significantly inferior to the Oka. Secondly, going to the Ugra, Akhmat continued to remain in close proximity to Moscow and, with the rapid crossing of the water line, he could reach the capital of the principality for the 3 equestrian transition. Thirdly, the entry of the Horde in the borders of the Lithuanian land prompted Casimir to speak and strengthened the likelihood of the Horde uniting with the Polish troops.

All these circumstances forced the Moscow government to take emergency measures. One such measure was the holding of the council. The son and co-ruler of Grand Duke Ivan Young, his mother - Prince nun Martha, uncle - Prince Mikhail Andreyevich Vereisky, Metropolitan of All Russia Gerontius, Archbishop of Rostov Vassian and many boyars took part in the discussion of the current situation. The council adopted a strategic action plan aimed at preventing the invasion of the Horde in the Russian lands. It provided for the simultaneous solution of several tasks of different nature.

First, an agreement was reached with the rebellious brothers about the end of the “mist”. The termination of the feudal rebellion significantly strengthened the military and political position of the Russian state in the face of the Horde danger, depriving Akhmat and Casimir of one of the main trump cards in their political game. Secondly, it was decided to transfer Moscow and a number of cities to a state of siege. Thus, according to the Moscow chronicle, “... under the siege in the city of Moscow, Metropolitan Gerontiy, and the Grand Duchess the Monk Martha, and Prince Mikhail Andreevich, and the governor of Moscow, Ivan Yuryevich, and many people from many cities, [8] sat down. Partial evacuation of the capital was carried out (the wife of Ivan III, Grand Duchess Sophia, young children and the state treasury) were sent from Moscow to Beloozero. Partially evacuated the population of Prioksky cities, and garrisons in them were strengthened by sovereign archers from Moscow. Thirdly, Ivan III ordered an additional military mobilization in the territory of the Moscow principality. Fourthly, it was decided to raid Russian troops on the territory of the Horde for a distracting strike. To this end, the ship’s ship was sent down the Volga under the leadership of the Crimean prince Nur-Daulet and Prince Vasily Zvenigorod-Nozdrovaty [9].

October 3 Grand Prince left Moscow for the regiments guarding the left bank of the Ugra. Arriving at the army, Ivan III stopped in the city of Kremenets, located between Medyn and Borovsky and located in close proximity to a possible theater of military operations. According to the testimony of the Moscow Chronicle, he "... a hundred on Kremenets with small people, and let all of the people go to Ugra to see his son, Grand Duke Ivan" [10]. Taking up a position located on the 50 km in the rear of the troops deployed along the coast of the Ugra, provided the central military leadership with reliable communications with the main forces and allowed them to cover the way to Moscow in the event of a breakthrough of the Horde troops through the barrier barriers of the Russian troops.

Sources did not keep the official chronicle report on "Ugorschina", there are no regiment paintings and the governor, although from the time of Ivan III many military categories remained. Formally, the head of the army was the son and co-ruler of Ivan III, Ivan Young, in which his uncle, Andrei Menshoi, was located. In fact, the old tried and tested voivods of the Grand Duke, who had extensive experience in waging war with the nomads, led the military actions. The great commander was Prince Daniel Kholmsky. His comrades-in-arms were no less famous generals — Semyon Ryapolovsky-Khripun and Danila Patrikeev-Schenya. The main grouping of troops was concentrated in the Kaluga region, covering the mouth of the Ugra. In addition, the Russian regiments were placed along the entire lower reaches of the river. According to the Vologda-Perm Chronicle, the Grand Duke Voivode "... a hundred Oka and Ugra on 60 versts" in the area from Kaluga to Yukhnov "[11].

The main task of the regiments scattered along the river bank was to prevent the enemy from breaking through the Ugra, and for this it was necessary to reliably protect the places convenient for the crossing.

The immediate defense of fords and perelaz was assigned to the infantry. In places suitable for the crossing, fortifications were erected, which were guarded by permanent outposts. The structure of such outposts were infantrymen and "fire outfit", consisting of archers and artillery maids.

A somewhat different role was assigned to the cavalry. Small horse patrols patrolled the coast between the outposts and maintained a close connection between them. Their task also included the capture of enemy intelligence officers who were trying to figure out the location of the Russian troops on the banks of the Ugra and reconnoiter convenient places to cross the river. Large horse regiments rushed to the aid of outposts standing at the crossings, only the direction of the main strike of the enemy was determined. Attacking or reconnaissance campaigns on the opposite shore occupied by the enemy were also allowed.

Thus, on a broad front along the Ugra River, positional defense was created with active sorties by cavalry units. Moreover, the main force located in the fortified defense units at the crossing points was infantry, equipped with firearms weapons.

The massive use of firearms by the Russian soldiers during the "standing on the Ugra" is celebrated by all the chronicles. Pishali were used - long-barreled guns that had aimed and effective fire. So-called mattresses were also used - firearms for shooting stone or metal shot at a close distance on the enemy's manpower. The “fiery attire” could be widely and most usefully applied in a positional, defensive battle. Therefore, the choice of a defensive position on the bank of the Ugra, apart from a favorable strategic position, was also dictated by the desire to effectively use the new branch of service in the Russian army - artillery.

The tactics imposed by Horde deprived those of the opportunity to use the advantages of their light cavalry in flank or bypass maneuvers. They were forced to act only in the frontal attack on the Russian abatis, to go head-on for food and mattresses, for a closed formation of heavily armed Russian soldiers.

The chronicles report that Akhmat walked with all his forces along the right bank of the Oka River through the cities of Mtsensk, Lubutsk and Odoyev towards Vorotynsk, a town located not far from Kaluga near the confluence of the Ugra and Oka. Here Akhmat was going to wait for help from Casimir.

But at this time, the Crimean Khan Mengli-Girey, at the insistence of Ivan III, began fighting in Podolia, thereby partially drawing off the troops and the attention of the Polish king. Engaged in the fight against the Crimea and the elimination of internal turmoil he could not assist the Horde.

Without waiting for the help of the Poles, Akhmat decided to cross the river in the Kaluga area himself. Horde troops reached the 6 – 8 October 1480 Ugri crossings and launched military operations in several places at once: “... Tatars ... coming against Prince Ondrei, and others against the Grand Duke Munozy, and ovii against governor suddenly attacked "[12].

The opponents came face to face, separated only by the smooth surface of the Ugra River (in the widest places up to 120 – 140 m). On the left bank, Russian archers lined up at the crossings and fords, squeezed and mattresses with gunners and pishchnikami. The regiments of the noble cavalry in armor shining in the sun, with sabers, were ready to strike the Horde if they could manage to cling to our shore somewhere. The battle for the ferry began at o'clock in the afternoon of October 8 and lasted along the entire defense line for almost four days.

The Russian governors used the advantages of their troops in small arms with the maximum benefit and shot the Horde in the water. They never managed to force the river on any stretch. A special role in the battles for the crossings played a "fire outfit." Kernels, shot and canister caused significant damage. Iron and stone were pierced through waterskins, which were used by the Horde to cross. Deprived of support, horses and riders quickly became exhausted. Those who were spared by the fire, went to the bottom. Horde floundering in cold water became a good target for the Russian riflemen, and they themselves could not use their favorite technique - massive archery. The arrows that flew across the river at izlete lost their destructive force and practically did not harm the Russian soldiers. Despite the huge losses, Khan again and again drove forward his cavalry. But all attempts by Akhmat to force the river ended unsuccessfully. “The king is not possible to take the shore and depart from the river from the Ugra for two miles and one hundred in Luza,” reports the Vologda-Perm chronicle [13].

A new attempt was made by the Horde to make settlements in the Opakova area. Here the terrain conditions made it possible to secretly concentrate the cavalry on the Lithuanian coast, and then it was relatively easy to force the shallow river. However, the Russian voivods closely followed the movement of the Tatars and skillfully maneuvered the regiments. As a result, at the crossing of the Horde, they were met not by a small guard post, but by large forces that repelled Ahmat’s last desperate attempt.

The Russian army stopped the Horde at the frontier and did not let the enemy to Moscow. But the final turning point in the fight against the invasion of Akhmat has not yet come. The terrible horde army on the banks of the Ugra retained its combat capability and readiness to resume the battle.

Under these conditions, Ivan III began diplomatic negotiations with Akhmat. The Russian Embassy, ​​headed by the clerk, Ivan Tovarkov, went to the Horde. But these negotiations showed a fundamental incompatibility of the views of the parties on the possibility of achieving a truce. If Akhmat insisted on continuing the Horde dominion over Russia, then Ivan III regarded this demand as unacceptable. In all likelihood, the negotiations were started by the Russians only in order to somehow stretch the time and find out further intentions of the Horde and their allies, as well as wait for the fresh regiments of Andrei Bolshoi and Boris Volotsky, hurrying to help. In the end, negotiations did not lead to anything.

But Akhmat continued to believe in the successful completion of the campaign undertaken against Moscow. In the Sofia chronicle there is a phrase that the chronicler put into the mouth of the Horde Khan at the end of unsuccessful negotiations: "May God bless you and all the rivers will become, otherwise there will be many roads to Russia" [14]. The establishment of ice cover on the rivers abroad significantly changed the situation for the opposing sides and not in favor of the Russians. Therefore, the Grand Duke made new operational and tactical decisions. One of these decisions was to transfer the main Russian forces from the left bank of the Ugra River to the northeast to the cities of Kremenets and Borovsk. Here, to the aid of the main forces, were moving fresh regiments, recruited in the north. As a result of this redeployment, a front stretched in length was liquidated, which, when losing such a natural defensive line as Ugra was, was significantly weakened. In addition, in the Kremenets area, a powerful fist was formed, the rapid movement of which would have allowed the Horde to block the road on a possible path of attack on Moscow. The withdrawal of troops from the Ugra began immediately after October 26. And the troops were assigned first to Kremenets, and then further into the interior, to Borovsk, where the troops of his brothers arrived from the Novgorod land waiting for Grand Duke Ivan III. The transfer of the position from Kremenets to Borovsk was most likely made because the new location of the Russian troops covered the way to Moscow not only from the Ugra, but also from Kaluga; from Borovsk, it was possible to quickly move troops to the middle course of the Oka between Kaluga and Serpukhov, if Akhmat decided to change the direction of the main attack. According to the Typographical Chronicle, "... the prince of the great came to Borovsk, utterly speaking, and on those fields we will fight with them" [15].

The area near Borovsk was very convenient for a decisive battle if Akhmat would nevertheless decide to cross the Ugra. The city was located on the right bank of the Protva, on the hills with a good overview. The terrain covered with dense forest near Borovsky would not allow Akhmat to fully use his main striking force - the numerous cavalry. The general strategic plan of the Russian command did not change - to give a defensive battle in favorable conditions and to prevent the enemy from breaking through to the capital.

However, Akhmat not only did not make a new attempt to cross the Ugra and join the battle, but on November 6 began to retreat from the Russian borders. 11 November this news reached the camp of Ivan III. The route of the Akhmat retreat passed through the cities of Mtsensk, Serensk and further to the Horde. Murtoza, the most energetic of the sons of Akhmat, attempted to destroy the Russian volosts on the right bank of the Oka. As the chronicler writes, two villages were captured in the Aleksin area. But Ivan III ordered his brothers, without delay, to come forward to meet the enemy. Learning about the approach of the prince's squad Murtoza retreated.

This ended ingloriously the last trip of the Great Horde to Russia. On the shores of the Oka and Ugra, a decisive political victory was won - in fact, the Horde yoke, over two centuries old, was overthrown.

28 December 1480 The Grand Duke Ivan III returned to Moscow, where he was solemnly greeted by jubilant townspeople. The war for the liberation of Russia from the Horde yoke was over.

The remnants of Ahmad's army fled to the steppe. Against the defeated Khan, rivals immediately came out. This struggle ended in his death. In January, 1481 in the Don steppes, tired of the long and fruitless campaign, lost their vigilance and were overtaken by the Nogai Khan Ivak. The murder of Akhmat Murza Yamgurchei led to the instant disintegration of the Horde army. But the decisive factor that led Ahmat to death, and his horde to defeat was, of course, their defeat in the autumn campaign of 1480.

The actions of the Russian command, which led to victory, had some new features, characteristic not for specific Russia, but for a single state. First, the strict centralization of leadership reflection of the invasion. All troop control, defining the lines of deployment of the main forces, the choice of rear positions, preparing the cities in the rear for defense, all this was in the hands of the head of state. Secondly, maintaining at all stages of confrontation constant and well-established communication with the troops, timely response to the rapidly changing situation. And finally, the desire to act on a broad front, the ability to gather forces into the most dangerous areas, the high maneuverability of the troops and excellent intelligence.

The actions of the Russian troops during the 1480 fall campaign to repel the Akhmat invasion is a bright page in the military history of our country. If the victory on the Kulikovo Field meant the beginning of a breakthrough in Russian-Horde relations — a transition from passive defense to an active struggle to overthrow the yoke, then a victory at Ugra meant the end of the yoke and the restoration of full national sovereignty of the Russian land. This is the largest event of the fifteenth century, and Sunday 12 November 1480 - the first day of a fully independent Russian state - is one of the most important dates in the history of the Fatherland. PCPL T.26. M.-L., 1959.


Monument to the Great Standing on the Ugra River. Located in the Kaluga region on the 176-km km of the highway Moscow-Kiev near the bridge over the river. Opened in 1980
Authors: V.A. Frolov. M.A. Neimark and E.I. Kireev.


[1] See: Annals collection, called the Patriarch or Nikon's chronicle. The complete collection of Russian chronicles (hereinafter referred to as PSRL). T. XII. SPb., 1901. C. 181.
[2] Cit. by: Boinkskie novels of ancient Russia. L., 1985, C. 290.
[3] Kalugin I.K. Diplomatic relations of Russia with the Crimea in the reign of Ivan III. M., 1855. C. 15.
[4] Bit Book 1475-1598 M., 1966. C. 46.
[5] Military tales of ancient Russia. C. 290.
[6] MOBILE TRIP. PCPL T.25. M.-L., 1949. C. 327.
[7] TRAILING. PCPL T.15. Spb., Xnumx. Stb 1863-497.
[8] MOBILE TRIP. C. 327.
[9] Cherepnin L.B. The depiction of the pyrogene centering city in the XIV-XV centuries. M., 1960. C. 881.
[10] MOBILE TRIP. C. 327.
[11] VOLVO-FRENCH PCPL T.26. M.-L., 1959. C. 263.
[12] SPECIAL SCREEN. " PLDP. The second half of the XV century. M., 1982. C. 516.
[13] VOLVO-FRENCH C. 264.
[14] Sophia-Lion Rainbow. PCPL T.20, h.1. CPB, 1910-1914. C. 346.
[15] The Boom Agenda of the Pisces. C. 290. [/ I]
Author:
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  1. apro
    apro 18 October 2015 07: 13 New
    -5
    The concept of the Tatar Golden Horde yoke is very confusing, because the Moscow state was part of this formation and not occupied territory, and Orthodoxy was one of the state religions on the territory of the Golden Horde, and the rulers of Russia were approved by the khans of the Golden Horde to rule in the trusted territories. Still, I agree with the statement that the Kulikovo battle and standing on the eel is part of the civil war in which Moscow fought for dominance in the golden horde.
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 10: 34 New
      +8
      Muscovy was an occupied territory that paid tribute. Compare, for example, with the former Pereyaslavsky and Kiev princedoms, where Tatar Baskaks, who directly controlled these lands, were located before 1330.

      Fomenkov is flourishing now, as I see it.
      1. Gomunkul
        Gomunkul 18 October 2015 11: 11 New
        0
        Fomenkov is flourishing now, as I see it.
        He who knows how to see and see, look carefully at the thumbnail published in the article, it is not clear which side of the Russian regiments, and which Tatar.
        The battle on the river Ugra, which put an end to the Horde yoke.
        Miniature from the Facial Chronicle. XVI century.
        And look at the very first picture published in the article, the ambassadors of the horde have a pronounced eastern appearance. Do not think such things suggest? wink hi
        1. SokolfromRussia
          SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 11: 35 New
          +3
          Painting Kivshenko 19-century. The miniature refers to the ancient Russian artistic tradition, where, until the 16 century, everyone painted the same way.
          1. Severomor
            Severomor 19 October 2015 10: 53 New
            0
            Quote: SokolfromRussia
            The miniature belongs to the old Russian artistic tradition, where until the 16th century everyone was painted the same way.

            Not certainly in that way.
            It's too late to write, no one will read, but nonetheless
            Here A. Nevsky with an army against the Western knights, though the truth can be distinguished
            1. Severomor
              Severomor 19 October 2015 10: 56 New
              +1
              but ours are fighting the Mongol-Tatars or the Tatar-Mongols. Ours seem left ..... or right
      2. War and Peace
        War and Peace 18 October 2015 12: 48 New
        -5
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        Muscovy was an occupied territory that paid tribute. Compare, for example, with the former Pereyaslavsky and Kiev princedoms, where Tatar Baskaks, who directly controlled these lands, were located before 1330.

        Fomenkov is flourishing now, as I see it.


        people like you have not only long been mired in a quagmire of traditionalist inventions, and apart from the stupid, Russophobic history written by the Germans for the Russians, you don’t want to see anything. And you need to see the world changing, and even the hard-stone and ossified TI has already advanced in this matter. Vladimir Putin, who apparently despaired of waiting for an unbiased historical investigation by his authority, CANCELED THE TATAROMONGOL IGO, and now the GOLDEN Horde is not a foreign invasion and tyranny, but its own local one, apparently from the Volga-Itil-RA, we will soon cancel ANTIQUITY, so get ready ...
        http://www.chelnyltd.ru/obshchestvo/_tataro-mongolskoe_igo__v_rossii__otmeneno__


        novim_uchebnikom_istorii
      3. Sweles
        Sweles 18 October 2015 14: 39 New
        +3
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        Muscovy was an occupied territory that paid tribute. Compare, for example, with the former Pereyaslavsky and Kiev princedoms, where Tatar Baskaks, who directly controlled these lands, were located before 1330.

        Fomenkov is flourishing now, as I see it.


        But what about the fact that R1a1 prevails in the Russian genome? and Mongol-Oirat inclusions are not at all, if Russia was 300 years under the Mongols? By the way, the Mongols and Tatars are also very different peoples who have absolutely nothing in common.
        1. SokolfromRussia
          SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 15: 38 New
          +1
          And the invasion is necessarily accompanied by a radical change in the genomes? Batu's army consisted of a lot of nations - Mongols, Tatars, Polovtsy, Turkmen, etc. Actually, the Mongol-Tatar forces are estimated at several tens of thousands, all the rest are Polovtsy, detachments of Khorezm feudal lords and other nomads.
          1. Sweles
            Sweles 18 October 2015 15: 58 New
            +3
            Quote: SokolfromRussia
            And the invasion is necessarily accompanied by a radical change in the genomes?



            300 years without women? it doesn’t happen that way.

            Quote: SokolfromRussia
            The army of Batu consisted of a lot of peoples - Mongols, Tatars, Polovtsy, Turkmen


            So there are no Asian genes in the Russian genome, there is a bit in the Tatar, but this is understandable - the Tatars lived next to the Asian tribes of the Bashkirs and Kazakhs, who were co-religionists, so customs allowed to mix.

            Quote: SokolfromRussia
            Actually, the Mongol-Tatar forces are estimated at several tens of thousands, all the rest are Polovtsy, detachments of Khorezm feudal lords and other nomads.


            The Russian white-genome is highly susceptible to changes under the influence of other stronger (predominant) genes, Asian and Negroid, so for the population of Russia at that time several million people should certainly have an effect, but this does not happen.
          2. Severomor
            Severomor 18 October 2015 21: 13 New
            -2
            Quote: SokolfromRussia
            The army of Batu consisted of a lot of peoples - the Mongols, Tatars, Polovtsy, Turkmens, etc. Actually, the Mongol-Tatar forces are estimated at several tens of thousands

            But according to your favorite chronicles, Batu's Army, consisting of several tens of thousands of people, invaded the Russian land in December. And they walked along the river beds. ..... I repeat: "several tens of thousands". On horses. With clockwork horses! (two or three horses per person) ... Like this
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 18 October 2015 21: 42 New
              -4
              Quote: Severomor
              Quote: SokolfromRussia
              The army of Batu consisted of a lot of peoples - the Mongols, Tatars, Polovtsy, Turkmens, etc. Actually, the Mongol-Tatar forces are estimated at several tens of thousands

              But according to your favorite chronicles, Batu's Army, consisting of several tens of thousands of people, invaded the Russian land in December. And they walked along the river beds. ..... I repeat: "several tens of thousands". On horses. With clockwork horses! (two or three horses per person) ... Like this


              according to Lyzlov 600 thousand.
              1. Severomor
                Severomor 18 October 2015 22: 07 New
                +2
                according to Lyzlov 600 thousand
                )))) I in childhood believed V. Yan for 300 thousand

                minuses instructed)))))), or didn’t they walk along riverbeds? A mzht not three clockwork horses were? Or not in the winter ??? )))))) unclear ))))
              2. The comment was deleted.
        2. War and Peace
          War and Peace 18 October 2015 15: 45 New
          -5
          Quote: Sveles
          how to assess the fact that in the Russian genome R1a1 prevails? and Mongol-Oirat inclusions are not at all, if Russia was 300 years under the Mongols? By the way, the Mongols and Tatars are also very different peoples who have absolutely nothing in common.


          who are you asking? at tradikov? they answer nothing and explain nothing the task of the Tradicists to die for traditional history and for all the heaps of nonsense of previous historians. Their goals are to fool the people, their methods of defamation, ridicule and lies, their sources of inspiration cabinet phantasmagoria and hallucinations, they stand their ground because they it’s not necessary to prove anything for a long time, it’s enough, like the local historian Shpakovsky, to repeat all the traditional historical nonsense from article to article the same thing, triremes, bronze swords and shields covered with leather.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 18 October 2015 21: 49 New
            +2
            And they were not, bronze swords, right?
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 19 October 2015 01: 43 New
              -1
              Quote: kalibr
              And they were not, bronze swords, right?


              these swords were mainly for burial, because military use was difficult because of the fragility of the swords, but the fragility is due to the lack of tin and the content of arsenic ...
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 19 October 2015 07: 37 New
                +1
                And there was no tin, huh? And analyzes of the metal showed that it is not? And the notches on the blades either?
                1. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 19 October 2015 10: 32 New
                  -1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And there was no tin, huh? And analyzes of the metal showed that it is not? And the notches on the blades either?


                  can you give a chemical analysis of your "Trojan" swords? why ask stupid questions? -prove. However, you cannot do this, as you proved the "dating of artifacts" we have already seen ...
                  1. kalibr
                    kalibr 20 October 2015 06: 45 New
                    -1
                    I can't, it's not my business. But everything has already been done and determined. Every artifact in the museum has a passport! And the burden of proof lies on whoever blames. This is the basis of legal proceedings. And then ... You refer to the mouse in bronze? Where does the data come from? Or have you done the analysis?
                    Oh, already two minuses - no answer words? Well, what with mu ... take it!
                2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Turkir
          Turkir 18 October 2015 21: 05 New
          +3
          Thank you for mentioning the haplogroup (y-chromosome) R1a1.
          And then many forget about her.
        4. Gamdlislyam
          Gamdlislyam 21 October 2015 11: 58 New
          +1
          Quote: Sveles
          By the way, the Mongols and Tatars are also very different peoples who have absolutely nothing in common.

          Dear colleague Veles (Sveles), you are right, the Tatars and the Mongols are different initialities ... but now. In those days, the concept of nationality was absent. The present Tatars belonged to different clan groups (uluses). Those that lived in the Kazan region were called Bulgars.
          In those days, the meaning of the word Tatarin was different. So called people of a foreign tribe, people from the East. Of the current vocabulary, the word “foreigner” is most suitable for him. And when these tribes and territories became part of Russia, then this word was transformed into the national designation of a certain population group.
          Note, in the 17-18 centuries, newcomers from the West began to be called Germans, although they were from different countries and spoke different languages. And only in the 19th century did the word - a foreigner become firmly established.
      4. marline
        marline 18 October 2015 15: 33 New
        +1
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        The Moscow state was an occupied territory, paying tribute.

        And what prince Igor was killed for? That's right, I went for a tribute. Apparently he kept the neighboring tribes of the Slavs under the yoke? smile
        Or as an option, tribute is a tax, because you pay taxes? But then it turns out that We all live under the yoke ... wink
        1. marline
          marline 18 October 2015 17: 29 New
          +2
          Here you are hurt, put a minus, but for what? What Igor did not collect tribute? Or you do not pay taxes.
          In general, I read the comments here and, to put it mildly, added:
          some are yelling - you are lying, there was no Tatar-Mongol yoke,
          others - in accordance with Karamzin, but what, how was it not? After all, Ohr and cry have been standing in All Russia for 300 years ... Hundreds of thousands, but what’s there - millions, angry Tatarabians bent Russia as soon as they wanted, but we rolled back to our development for +100500 years ...
          I, adhering to the views of Klyuchevsky Vasily Osipovich (there was an IGO, but I see nothing wrong with this) should put all the minuses, just for lulz ???
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. qQQQ
      qQQQ 18 October 2015 13: 38 New
      +2
      Quote: apro
      The concept of the Tatar Golden Horde yoke is very embarrassing, because the Moscow state was part of this formation and not occupied territory, and Orthodoxy was one of the state religions in the territory of the Golden Horde, and the rulers of Russia were approved by the khans of the Golden Horde to rule in the trusted territories.


      There used to be a movie about Japan, and there, to the question of what might justify the rebellion of the filed, there was a simple answer: the success of this war. So here, winners are not judged.
    4. tomket
      tomket 18 October 2015 15: 43 New
      -3
      Quote: apro
      The concept of the Tatar Golden Horde yoke is very confusing

      And do not be embarrassed. Not a red girl anyway .....
  2. alekc73
    alekc73 18 October 2015 07: 46 New
    +5
    This is not a civil war, as alternative historians claim, but an invasion from outside. Russia has been a vassal of the Horde since the middle of the 13th century and paid tribute. Russian princes had to go to the Horde for labels and send troops at the request of the khan. Numerous attempts to free themselves from dependence in 13-14 centuries led to success. Only after 1480 the Russian state became independent. But after that, more than 300 years later had to fight with the Tatars (Crimean, Kazan, Nagai).
    1. apro
      apro 18 October 2015 08: 20 New
      +2
      Then explain to me the concept of Tatar tithing, the invaders rake everything.
      1. cormorant
        cormorant 18 October 2015 08: 46 New
        -4
        Do you pay taxes? Where do some of these taxes go? That's right, to maintain the army. So then, tithe was paid by the population in the form of a tax to maintain the army. There was no Mongol-Tatar yoke. It was a civil war in one great empire.
        1. Nuar
          Nuar 18 October 2015 08: 57 New
          +2
          Quote: cormorant
          So then, tithe was paid by the population in the form of a tax to maintain the army. There was no Mongol-Tatar yoke. It was a civil war in one great empire.

          It was a feudal state, and not an empire. There was no army plus, each khan kept his nukers with his own money (as did the Russian princes, his squads).

          What a habit to transfer modern realities to events of 700 years ago.

          Pe se. Tithing was not paid by the population, that’s the way it is.
        2. alekc73
          alekc73 18 October 2015 08: 58 New
          +8
          Write also that the Crimean raids of the 16-18th century are a myth. But this is not historically close rejected. About the yoke, go to the old Ryazan to excavate. The population that has been destroyed: all men, women over 35 years old (old women are not needed for delights), children, babies. Of course in Russia there were squabbles between the principalities. Everyone wanted territory and resources, despite the fact that they were all relatives (princes). It didn’t reach such cruelty. This is not a civil war, but an invasion of a cruel and treacherous enemy.
          1. UralMan
            UralMan 18 October 2015 10: 48 New
            -5
            Quote: alekc73
            This is not a civil war, but the invasion of a cruel and treacherous enemy.

            Go crazy ... what an invasion ...? Mongols? So the Mongols themselves for some reason did not hear about this, so that they would go somewhere.
            Oh yes, there were Tatars there ... OH forgot wink ... yes, they kind of lived on their lands and still live.
            -----------------
            Do not make people laugh.
            1. SokolfromRussia
              SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 10: 53 New
              +9
              Fairy tales do not tell. Everyone in Mongolia heard perfectly. And besides the ancient Russian chronicles, the invasion is confirmed by Chinese, Persian, Arabic, Hungarian, Polish, Serbian, German and other chronicles.
              1. UralMan
                UralMan 18 October 2015 10: 59 New
                -2
                Yeah ... confirm ... and you and other chroniclers
                - Simple Mongols do not know anything about the Tatar-Mongol invasion. Legends and legends about him do not exist. As for the written sources, it must be said that modern Mongolian writing was invented only in the XNUMXth century on the basis of Russian alphabet, and before that, the Mongols did not have a written language. There is no other written language than modern in Mongolia and did not exist in the foreseeable past. And therefore, most likely, it never existed (writing is usually not lost). Therefore, there are simply no written sources before the XNUMXth century in Mongolia.

                As for people with education - and this is mainly the intelligentsia who studied in the USSR - they, of course, know about the Tatar-Mongol invasion from books and school books. But all this information came to them from the West and in no way rests on the local Mongol tradition. Moreover, many educated Mongols in conversation with me expressed deep doubt about the plausibility of the generally accepted historical version of the Mongol conquest of Russia. They said something like this.

                "Why do you Russians think that our Mongol ancestors once conquered Russia? If this were really so, we should have at least something to remember about it. But we know about the Mongol conquest of Russia only from books that foreigners brought us. And we ourselves do not remember anything. You yourself say that it was not a Mongol, but a TATAR-Mongol yoke. Therefore, it would be better for you to look for the origins of the conquest not with us, but in your own Tatarstan.
                Now, you say that part of the Mongols after the conquest of Russia returned back to Mongolia. Moreover, they returned as winners. But then they would have to bring with them some new knowledge, customs, borrowed in Russia. However, in our traditional life there is no trace of Russian and, in general, Western customs. In the Mongolian folk language there are no borrowings from Russian and European languages. In Mongolia, we never found the treasures of Genghis Khan, which, according to Russian sources, were exported to Mongolia. The name Chingiz itself is Tatar, very common among the Tatars. The Mongols have no such name.
                How could it happen that for so many years of the greatest conquest in history, our ancestors have not learned anything new, brought anything significant home, left no trace in the people's memory or in the everyday life?
                And then, pray tell, which way, in your opinion, the Mongols went to Russia? And what way did they come back? If you believe your textbooks, it turns out that our Mongol ancestors had to cross many rivers on their way to Russia and back. Including through large rivers. It is clear that very often they would have to swim across rivers. But the Mongols are not friendly with water and are afraid of water. In winter, not a single Mongol will cross the river, even on the thickest ice, unless the ice is covered with earth or sand. But if - as you say - our Mongolian ancestors crossed so many rivers, lived for many years in a country where they love water and there are many holidays associated with water, then of course they would develop a completely different attitude to water. Which should have been passed on to all subsequent generations of Mongols. But there is no trace of that. "
                1. SokolfromRussia
                  SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 11: 14 New
                  +7
                  These stories about the Mongols wander among Fomenkovites for many years. But no one has proved them.

                  1. There are many legends, local folklorists wrote them back in 18-19 centuries.
                  2. Payzi, decrees, etc.In Khorezm, Persia, China, there is a huge layer of Chingizid documents.
                  3. The Batu army returned to the Volga steppes, not to Mongolia.
                  4. The Mongols are not friendly with water ... Yeah, yeah, and they only crossed their rivers in the winter, not otherwise.

                  In short, this nonsense in the style of "someone said something to me" is not even worth analyzing.

                  In Fomenkovism can believe a man who, in addition to the creativity of the fomenki books, in principle, did not read. Behind this discussion with you is over.
                  1. Turkir
                    Turkir 18 October 2015 21: 13 New
                    +2
                    In Fomenkovism can be believed by a person who, in addition to creativity, Fomenko books, in principle, did not read.

                    I absolutely agree.
                    Many of his followers do not know what a photographer is, what dendrochronology is, and did not read the article by academician Yanin about all this nonsense.
                    Moreover, if they read this article, they will not understand it.
                    They also do not know the difference between statistics and mathematics.
                    -----------
                    If you throw something into an empty jug, he strumming.
                2. kalibr
                  kalibr 18 October 2015 12: 53 New
                  +4
                  And do they catch fish in their lakes with spells or are they inviting Chinese? Ask on the web how they catch fish there. About this even the magazine Around the World wrote ... And the two fish on the flag are something!
                  1. SokolfromRussia
                    SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 16: 11 New
                    +4
                    Do not pay attention, the best discussion with the Ariye-Tartars-Fomenkovists is simply ignore. Not very polite, but very efficient.
              2. Gora66
                Gora66 18 October 2015 13: 11 New
                +1
                I served there and know firsthand what the local population knows and does not know ... they did not know about the horde until our history books told them about it.
              3. War and Peace
                War and Peace 19 October 2015 10: 39 New
                0
                Quote: SokolfromRussia
                Fairy tales do not tell. Everyone in Mongolia heard perfectly. And besides the ancient Russian chronicles, the invasion is confirmed by Chinese, Persian, Arabic, Hungarian, Polish, Serbian, German and other chronicles.


                the battle of the Mongols with the Hungarians at Sayo, so who are the Mongols here? I think that the Mongols are those on the right, because the flag with a crescent ... laughing
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 20 October 2015 22: 06 New
                  +1
                  Where does it say here that this is the battle of Sae? How does it know?
                  1. War and Peace
                    War and Peace 20 October 2015 22: 47 New
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Where does it say here that this is the battle of Sae? How does it know?

                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Битва_на_реке_Шайо
                    1. kalibr
                      kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 21 New
                      +1
                      So Wikipedia is lying! This is a branch of historians-conspirators, whose main goal (and Wikipedia!), So that no one knows for sure. And this drawing is drawn in the basement of the Vatican recently. The monks decided to laugh ... One of them told me when they rested together in Cyprus.
                      1. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 21 October 2015 16: 33 New
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        So Wikipedia is lying! This is a branch of historians-conspirators, whose main goal (and Wikipedia!), So that no one knows for sure. And this drawing is drawn in the basement of the Vatican recently. The monks decided to laugh ... One of them told me when they rested together in Cyprus.

                        http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/620480
                      2. The comment was deleted.
              4. The comment was deleted.
          2. Gora66
            Gora66 18 October 2015 13: 17 New
            -2
            remember the history of the Second World War ... who were the most cruel punishers? That's right, their own kind of "Orthodox" who did not spare either the elderly or women or children ... the conquerors, including the Nazis, preferred to use women and children as free slaves. force or educate in the spirit of Nazism for use, in the future, as a police force in the conquered territories.
            1. Lenivets
              Lenivets 18 October 2015 13: 23 New
              +7
              "Remember the history of the Second World War ... who were the most cruel punishers? That's right, their own kind of" Orthodox "who did not spare the elderly, women or children .."

              The most cruel and massive atrocities became famous for the Balts and Hohlyat Uniates. This is what you call them: "your own kind like" Orthodox "? what
        3. UralMan
          UralMan 18 October 2015 10: 29 New
          -3
          Quote: cormorant
          There was no Mongol-Tatar yoke. It was a civil war in one great empire.

          It is for this reason that the library of Ivan the Terrible, the legendary "Liberia", "disappeared, disappeared". That could open the curtain of existing historical uncertainties and disagreements.
          Therefore, whether the yoke was or not, the question remains open, causing yet another debate among pundits.
          I think sooner or later the curtain will open and many things will become clear, but by then they may not be so significant and relevant, they will not affect the further course of development of internal or interstate relations.
          ------------
          In the meantime, this is how it is .... "looking for" ... LEE?
          1. UralMan
            UralMan 18 October 2015 10: 58 New
            -1
            Someone slapped (-) ... go with a hangover probably!
      2. Spnsr
        Spnsr 18 October 2015 20: 12 New
        -1
        Cossack, was also tithe!
        do not pay attention to pro-pin-Dovsky historians, this one is not being, because they don’t have any obvious successes in political activity, they are trying to find other manifestations for themselves in order to satisfy their attempts, abandoned due to lack of reason!
        there may also be cattle breeders to whom the Soviet regime gave territory, and who began to imagine themselves to be great warriors ...
        but in general, judging from the statement that history is repeating, it gives a strong impression that that era is no different from the present, but if you change direction, that is, Ahmet tried to get around from Casimir, that is, from the west, then very much recalls the campaign of the Swedes, who ended up near Poltava, and Napoleon, who for some reason didn’t move to the Russian capital then, namely Moscow, and Hitler, all the parties started from the west, and if even during all these wars it would have been weak with dissemination of information, it was also possible, especially to the West, to dismiss their failures, saying that it’s not us, like, but a horde from the east, but he is an Ordung in Germany too
        and Ukraine now, a very striking example of what was then, first England broke away from the empire, then the Germans, Poles, it is very clearly seen how what else, even when the Romanovs were in Russia, now comes to Russia, and now the southern republics, such as blood Turks, although 25 years ago there were no Turk Turks in blood, but there were Turkic-speaking tribes .... yes there are many that are very veiled by “historians” and continue to be veiled
  3. cormorant
    cormorant 18 October 2015 09: 14 New
    0
    Tithing was paid by the population in the form of an army maintenance tax. For refusing to pay tribute (a tenth), the military administration punished the population with punitive expeditions. So much for the alleged "Tatar raids."
    At that time, the population was divided into two parts. One civilian population ruled by princes. Another part is the regular army of the Horde, led by warlords. At the head of the Horde Rati was the king or khan and he owned the supreme power. In other words, in the structure of one state, there were two administrations: the military in the Horde and the civil in the localities.
  4. cormorant
    cormorant 18 October 2015 09: 50 New
    -1
    Look in the article for a thumbnail from the Personal Annals. XVI century Does it surprise anyone that both warriors and military leaders are equally dressed on both sides?
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 10: 37 New
      +1
      Not. This is an artistic tradition. In Russia, everyone drew the same picture - the Polovtsy, the Lithuanians, and even the Teutonic Crusaders. Compare, for example, with the Hungarian, Polish, German chronicles. There, Russian warriors and Tatars are drawn very differently.
      1. UralMan
        UralMan 18 October 2015 10: 54 New
        0
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        Not. This is an artistic tradition. In Russia, everyone drew the same picture - the Polovtsy, the Lithuanians, and even the Teutonic Crusaders. Compare, for example, with the Hungarian, Polish, German chronicles. There, Russian warriors and Tatars are drawn very differently.

        ------------
        Yeah, there the Tatars and Russians painted differently.
        But in Russia, both are the same.
        You ... the Russian bohomaz had a wry eye or from a hangover decided to paint everyone the same, so for the excuse in front of the customer?
        Baida is all this.
        1. SokolfromRussia
          SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 10: 55 New
          0
          Can you explain why in Russia everyone drew the same, and not just Russians and Tatars?
          1. Balagan
            Balagan 18 October 2015 11: 22 New
            +1
            And in ancient Egypt, everyone painted differently?
          2. UralMan
            UralMan 18 October 2015 12: 22 New
            -2
            Quote: SokolfromRussia
            Can you explain why in Russia everyone drew the same, and not just Russians and Tatars?


            Yes, I can - but I can’t drink so much.
            And then with a deep hangover, here I will write nonsense about how the Old Russian Bogomaz mirrored both in his work.
            What is the name of a vision of different images in medicine - one or something like this?
            So this is a neurodegenerative disease.
            So here is my good advice to you, do not drink ...
          3. Spnsr
            Spnsr 18 October 2015 20: 42 New
            0
            if we take as a basis what is now, then in the battle with pin-do-sa-mi we will look the same with them, and then, the warring parties were similar to each other, only in the camp, in the figures, they have a hat princely, while others have a ruler with a crown !!!
      2. Spnsr
        Spnsr 18 October 2015 20: 44 New
        0
        interesting, but how are Ukrainians painted? YES And how long have they become Ukrainians?
      3. Spnsr
        Spnsr 19 October 2015 11: 48 New
        0
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        Not. This is an artistic tradition. In Russia, everyone drew the same picture - the Polovtsy, the Lithuanians, and even the Teutonic Crusaders. Compare, for example, with the Hungarian, Polish, German chronicles. There, Russian warriors and Tatars are drawn very differently.

        don’t tell my shoes, otherwise I don’t want to run around shoe stores! laughing you, mother, do not worry, say that they were of a type different from the Russians? WHAT IF NOT A SECRET? only, mother do not worry, do not hang a length on the ears, like they were like advanced type! but there is every reason to assert that the Russian army was armed with a firearm, a real firearm, at a time when Europe, even in the 16th and early 17th centuries, if it made a firearm, it was made of wood, wrapping it with leather!
        which is generally objective now !!! laughing
        and from here, all these allegations that the enlightened ge.yro.pppp was so enlightened and hence armed have no basis for it, and this, as a result, can give reason to say that in the person of Ahmet, so renamed by the West, in order to disguise his failures, the West spoke with bows ...
        they gathered a mob, thought that they would trample on, but no, they were met with fewer, but more armed Russians ....
        so, mangaloids, it’s good to sculpt chaff, it has no reason, go pin. dos. persuade that they are a mistake of nature due to the fact that the sick, wretched and criminals were sent to America, which in general has more reasons than the mangaloid theory of the origin of Russia !!!
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 18 October 2015 09: 54 New
    +2
    and some events, perhaps undeservedly forgotten... About this, in the "totalitarian" time, it was briefly written in stories on History for 4 grades, in a little more detail in the History of the USSR for the 7 grade, Ivan III tears up the khan's letter. Painting by N. Shustov., Was published in this textbook is only in black and white ... about standing on the Ugra, one could read in the History Reader for the 7th grade ... But of course, with the revision of history that began in the 90s, the above events may already be undeserved forgotten ... And interpreted as they want, judging by the comments ..
  6. Balagan
    Balagan 18 October 2015 11: 16 New
    11
    Hmm ... In support of the anti-Fomenkovism.
    Then all anti-fascist actions in Europe from 1939 to 1945. - These are acts of disobedience of citizens in the Third Reich (Maidan, Swamp, etc.). But the Warsaw Uprising is generally an attempt at civil war. Just the Poles subjects were a little bit dissatisfied with the German Gauleiter. Maybe the Poles just conceived a coup in the Reich? Type are Aryans more Aryan than Germans ...
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 11: 18 New
      +2
      The Fomenkovites are simply very aggressively trying to prove their fantasies, and therefore they are more noticeable than the adherents of the generally accepted version. In scientific circles, all these supporters of the "great Tartarii" have long ceased to be taken into account.
      1. Gomunkul
        Gomunkul 18 October 2015 11: 31 New
        0
        In scientific circles, all these supporters of the "great tartaries" have long ceased to be taken into account.
        Yes Yes. You do not know anything except "fomenkovschina".
        1. SokolfromRussia
          SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 11: 38 New
          +2
          The logic is impressive. They showed a map where Siberia was called "Tataria". "Hurray, we were recognized" (c) Fomenkovites.

          Where are we to the great sources of knowledge that hide the truth about the Great TARTER ... laughing
          1. Gomunkul
            Gomunkul 18 October 2015 11: 41 New
            -3
            Where are we to the great sources of knowledge that hide the truth about the Great TARTER ...
            In addition to blah, blah from you not a single fact. laughing
            1. SokolfromRussia
              SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 11: 45 New
              +3
              Chronicles and chronicles are sources of facts, and the stories of obsessed Velkartartsev me little interest. I also stop talking to you.
              1. Gomunkul
                Gomunkul 18 October 2015 11: 48 New
                -6
                Chronicles and chronicles are sources of facts, and the stories of obsessed Velkartartsev me little interest. I also stop talking to you.
                Learning is light, and unlearned is darkness. Which was required to prove. wink laughing
              2. UralMan
                UralMan 18 October 2015 12: 26 New
                -3
                SokolfromRussia RU Today, 11:45 ↑
                Chronicles and chronicles are sources of facts, and the stories of obsessed Velkartartsev me little interest. I also stop talking to you.

                And I see you are of little interest ....
                You are probably a phenomenon ...
                And what is it, how deolo about us, so we go for you ... so the uneducated mob
              3. Spnsr
                Spnsr 18 October 2015 23: 01 New
                0
                so in the annals, Russian in white, it says that the fighters of Dmitry Donskoy are called Tatarav from the backwaters, and Mamaia is the king and not the khan, you would read correctly if you read the annals, and here is an example
                “And on Tsar Akhmat,” wrote the Crimean Khan to Ivan III, to be with you for one. If Tsar Akhmat goes to me, and to you my brother Grand Duke Ivan, release your princes to the horde with ulans and with princes. And then the king Akhmat and me the king Mengli Giray go to the king Akhmat or let your brother go with his people ”[3].
                for example, it tells me that the Crimean Khan and Ivan 3 were divisions, but Cosimir is another question, the campaign is still that battle for the crown, especially since somewhere in these times the throne began to pass from father to son, but the brothers then remained. where it is written that he solved the question, if only in semi-artistic works, and if so, then there were still cows, cousins, cousins, and everyone wanted to sit in Third Rome ...
                after all, they, the rulers of the republics of Tartaria called each other brothers and sisters, just do not have to convince that this is an artistic fiction ...
                so there can be no talk about the Mongoloid in the current interpretation ...
            2. kalibr
              kalibr 18 October 2015 12: 49 New
              +4
              A huge reservoir of archaeological finds has been preserved. What more do you want?
              1. SokolfromRussia
                SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 14: 27 New
                +2
                They need "historians to stop hiding the truth about the Great Tartary." One of the Tartars above gave links to a video on YouTube, so there are a lot of such comments in the comments: "Glory to Hyperborea", "Glory to Russia-TARTARIA", etc.
                1. Gomunkul
                  Gomunkul 18 October 2015 15: 28 New
                  -3
                  They need "historians to stop hiding the truth about the Great Tartary."
                  Yes, truth is needed, because a people who do not know their history are doomed to extinction. Since you deliberately advocate concealing the true history of Russia, then who are you and whose interests are so zealously defended?
                  PS
                  "Plato is my friend but the truth is dearer"
                  yes
      2. UralMan
        UralMan 18 October 2015 11: 44 New
        -3
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        In scientific circles, all these supporters of the "great tartaries" have long ceased to be taken into account.


        I think after your local comments, supporters of generally accepted versions will further strengthen their delusional position.
        There is a clear replenishment in their regiment.
        \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
        Of course, it’s easier to blame God’s blame on anyone .... on the Tatar-Mongol, on anyone, since history will write everything off, who chirkanul-so on order, painted as it should .... in short, they sewn to history then what do you need.
        And all the cheeky bunches ... chew shorter.
        Well, good lovers are enough ... a dime a dozen screaming ...
        you are here against the history of prte ....
        this is the generally accepted opinion ...
        what do you allow yourself to rant here ...
        ----------
        The worst thing is that such a person in power can write history himself
        And go and dare to object to him ...
      3. Rivares
        Rivares 18 October 2015 23: 10 New
        0
        Quote: SokolfromRussia
        In scientific circles, all these supporters of the "great tartaries" have long ceased to be taken into account.

        On the contrary, the "scientific" historical circles silently shut up. They cannot refute the originals. The facts do not fit into the istorical picture, therefore they are silent in a rag. Otherwise, they would have yelled loudly about a fake for a long time. A more or less intelligible explanation from the "historian" said that Tartary was the name of a certain territory. When the coat of arms of this "territory" was poked into his nose, he scratched his turnip and fell silent.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 19 October 2015 07: 42 New
          0
          And what originals, I wonder? There is a remarkable study by A.I. Solovyov: Weapons and armor. Siberian weapons from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. 2003 Kopal 20 years in Siberia, and the Altai in the Minusinsk Basin ... And I did not find ANY TRACES OF THE TARTER. But how tempting it is to make history its discoverer. But ... did not find!
          1. War and Peace
            War and Peace 19 October 2015 11: 22 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            And what originals, I wonder? There is a remarkable study by A.I. Solovyov: Weapons and armor. Siberian weapons from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. 2003 Kopal 20 years in Siberia, and the Altai in the Minusinsk Basin ... And I did not find ANY TRACES OF THE TARTER. But how tempting it is to make history its discoverer. But ... did not find!


            funny, why did you dig that? and about the Siberian serif line he did not hear for an hour? but this is MORE THAN 2000 WERST and the funniest thing is that the VOLUME OF ONLY EARTH WORKS is MILLION WORK HOURS, not counting the fact that the Romanov falsifiers have ripped off. Silly talk about the fact that these were shafts against the wandering type of Kazakhs, as soon as they called themselves? -not accepted, "Kazakhs" are not those dangers for the sake of which so much work must be invested in defensive structures.

            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 19 October 2015 11: 31 New
              0
              and besides, it is believed that this trait is against the type of Kazakhs, but there are photos of the true Zakamskaya Zaseka, but the direction of defense is the same everywhere, and the SHARES OF DEFENSE are directed to the south, which is perfectly visible in the shadows cast to the north. that "defense against the Kazakhs" does not stand up to even the simplest criticism ...
              1. War and Peace
                War and Peace 19 October 2015 11: 56 New
                0
                Quote: War and Peace
                The photo is true of the Zakamsky notch, but the direction of defense is the same everywhere, and so the DEFENSE DEFENSE is directed to the south


                ERROR direction of defense points TO NORTH ...
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Rivares
            Rivares 19 October 2015 21: 29 New
            -1
            Quote: kalibr
            I dug for 20 years in Siberia, and Altai in the Minusinsk depression ... And I did not find ANY TRAINS OF TARTARIA

            Duc, I’ve also been digging in the garden for 30 years, and I haven’t found any traces either. Here in the comments of the video there is about the Russian geographical society. Evidence was presented at the exhibition. For the blind, comments are superfluous.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 20 October 2015 07: 11 New
              -1
              Have you read this book? Before all at once, like this, a reasonable person would look at the recommended works, articles of the author. Let it take time. And so with your garden you don't look very smart, don't you think? You can go to the Hermitage, see a collection of Siberian finds dating back to the time of Peter, visit the "gold storeroom" ... And then write "I don't believe". It is very stupid when a non-expert says about it like that.
              1. Rivares
                Rivares 20 October 2015 21: 49 New
                -1
                Quote: kalibr
                see a collection of Siberian finds from the time of Peter

                Peter hated everything Russian. Nobody saw all the books that he ordered to collect from monasteries under the pretext of making copies (and under the threat of death for refusing to provide them) as well as their copies. Under him, the physical destruction of both the Old Believers and the Old Believers began. You had to pay for the opportunity to live according to your traditions. Massively planted alcohol and tobacco.
                Quote: kalibr
                Have you read this book?

                Do not read. But there are more modern results with specific archaeological finds. I do not reject the efforts of the author, a negative result is also a result,
                but you need to rely on where you can rely on specifics.
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 20 October 2015 22: 11 New
                  0
                  Oh really? More modern? And you read them? Call at least one, but not the publisher AST and with page or end links and links to primary sources, and not to writing-rewriting.
                  Did Peter reject Russian? Well ... with him! And the Siberian gold collected? Yes! This is about what. No need to distort, we do not play cards.
                  1. Rivares
                    Rivares 21 October 2015 13: 14 New
                    +1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Oh really? More modern? And you read them? Call at least one, but not the publisher AST and with page or end links and links to primary sources, and not to writing-rewriting.
                    Did Peter reject Russian? Well ... with him! And the Siberian gold collected? Yes! This is about what. No need to distort, we do not play cards.

                    Sorry, but in order to represent the links, what historical positions are you on? What can I refute? You never said that. I cite information in support of my words, but you do not bring anything, only criticize someone else's. Out of jealousy, I’m not spoiling the other? First, imagine your vision of the historical period, otherwise I won’t understand what I’m distorting.
                    1. kalibr
                      kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 23 New
                      +1
                      My presented in my books and articles here on the site. And those and others are more than enough!
                2. marline
                  marline 20 October 2015 22: 58 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Rivares
                  Peter hated everything Russian ...

                  Is it true? Peter called himself the first citizen of Russia, strengthened the army, built the navy ... Why, there is a long explanation, watch the film: "Mikhailo Lomonosov", maybe you will understand why it is worth loving Peter. Otherwise it's easy to say: "You just hate everything Russian."
                  Quote: Rivares
                  Under him, the physical destruction of both the Old Believers and the Old Believers began.

                  There is a difference? For me, they are schismatics.
                  Quote: Rivares
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Have you read this book?

                  Do not read

                  But do not approve ...
                  1. Rivares
                    Rivares 21 October 2015 13: 03 New
                    +1
                    Quote: merlin
                    Is it true? Peter called himself the first citizen of Russia, strengthened the army, built the navy ... Why, there is a long explanation, watch the film: "Mikhailo Lomonosov", maybe you will understand why it is worth loving Peter. Otherwise it's easy to say: "You just hate everything Russian."

                    On the history of the university passed, it is fully recognized by historical science. I do not recommend you confirm the story of the movie.
                    "With other European nations, you can achieve your goal in human-loving ways, but with the Russian - not so ... I do not deal with people, but with animals that I want to transform into people" - Peter 1st
                    List of "great" things to present?

                    Quote: merlin
                    There is a difference? For me so - schismatics

                    Old Believers are Christian schismatics.
                    The Old Believers are a pre-Christian Vedic faith.
                    Quote: merlin
                    But do not approve ...

                    Well, I did not read it, how can I approve or not, which I do not know.
                    1. marline
                      marline 21 October 2015 13: 26 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Rivares
                      Quote: merlin
                      ... maybe you will understand why it is worth loving Peter. Otherwise it's easy to say: "You just hate everything Russian."

                      On the history of the university passed, it is fully recognized by historical science. I do not recommend you confirm the story of the movie.

                      So in vain - you need it, for understanding ... in short, there are about schismatics and about Peter the Antichrist - and all in an accessible form ...
                      As for the university, they passed - if here according to such textbooks: http://topwar.ru/84103-kak-uchili-ponimat-nashu-istoriyu-strasheklassnikov-v-199

                      6-godu-citaty-iz-uchebnika.html
                      That is not surprising, but the university should somehow be taught to think and use additional literature for self-education ... And this, in my opinion, is the main thing that they should be taught ... so, my advice to you, read about Peter, at your leisure .
                      Quote: Rivares
                      List of "great" things to present?

                      Thank you, I am aware of what they praise and criticize for, moreover, in numbers.
                      Quote: Rivares

                      Old Believers are Christian schismatics.
                      The Old Believers are a pre-Christian Vedic faith.

                      Hmm ... You'd better, nevertheless, read ... Yet in Mother Russia "Hinduism" was not born.
                      1. Rivares
                        Rivares 21 October 2015 14: 45 New
                        +2
                        Quote: merlin
                        So in vain - you need it, for understanding ... in short, there are about schismatics and about Peter the Antichrist - and all in an accessible form ...

                        In the film, Mikhailo Lomonosov, Old Believers (schismatics, according to Nikon) are called Old Believers. The fact that they are Old Believers can be understood by their conversation if you understand a little in religions. Also, during the Tara uprising under Peter, the Old Believers (Old Believers-faith in Christ before Nikon) were ordered to be burned alive, and the Old Believers (Perun, Svarog) were wheeled, quartered, but in no case were burned so that they did not get to their God (if you know before in Russia there were funerary crodes (bonfires) on which the dead were burned).
                        Quote: merlin
                        Yet in Mother Russia there was no "Hinduism".

                        I completely agree. Initially, there was Orthodoxy (until Nikon, Christianity was orthodox, and since Orthodoxy could not in any way, Christians decided to be called Orthodox for Russians and Orthodox (Orthodox in Greek) for the rest of the world)
                      2. marline
                        marline 21 October 2015 15: 22 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Rivares
                        Quote: merlin
                        So in vain - you need it, for understanding ... in short, there are about schismatics and about Peter the Antichrist - and all in an accessible form ...

                        In the film, Mikhailo Lomonosov, Old Believers (schismatics, according to Nikon) are called Old Believers.

                        You don’t know a bit, schismatics, for what you would call them schismatics or Old Believers, they would have given you a face in Peter's times, now they’ll just be offended, they call themselves - Old Believers
                        Quote: Rivares
                        ... Old Believer - faith in ... Perun, Svarog ...

                        The pagan, probably it will be more true, and do not listen to fairy tales, pagans in the time of Peter I and was not there for a long time.
                        Quote: Rivares
                        I completely agree. Initially, there was Orthodoxy (until Nikon, Christianity was orthodox, and since Orthodoxy could not in any way, Christians decided to be called Orthodox for Russians and Orthodox (Orthodox in Greek) for the rest of the world)

                        And before Patriarch Nikon, and during and after, Our Church was Orthodox, i.e. "catholic". The first mention of Metropolitan Hilarion: "Praise with the laudable voices of Rome the country of Peter and Paul, the image of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Asia and Ephesus, and Patm John the Theologian, India Thomas, Egypt Mark. All countries and gradients, and people honor and glorify people. some of their teachers, others who teach me orthodox and vrѣ "- dated 1050.
                        The term "faithful" is used in relation to any religion.
                        Well, porridge in your head, you still read something from the history of religions.
                      3. Rivares
                        Rivares 21 October 2015 16: 43 New
                        +1
                        Quote: merlin
                        You would call them schismatics or Old Believers, in the time of Peter the Great they would give you a snout, now they’ll just be offended, they call themselves Old Believers

                        New Christians call them schismatics (I used their term, I did not invent it)
                        Old Believers because they conduct rituals in the old (in a new way after Nikon)
                        The Old Believers (in relation to the Old Believers) since they adhere to the old interpretations and rites of Christianity.
                        Old Believers (where Perun and Svarog) because their faith (not religion) is old. You call them pagans in Christianity, although the word is Old Slavic and pre-Christian means LANGUAGE NIKakaoy (unknown people with unknown language) they were also called priests filthy (trash either in Greek or in Latin means another people)
                        Quote: merlin
                        The pagan, probably it will be more true, and do not listen to fairy tales, pagans in the time of Peter I and was not there for a long time

                        Those. during Grozny there was still double faith when the Vedic holidays were celebrated and people went to church as an obligatory party type meeting. And now there are a lot of holidays and traditions of the Vedic. Parents go to the graves of their ancestors, do you bring gifts or remember? This is paganism, as you say, and pure)
                        Quote: merlin
                        And before Patriarch Nikon and during and after Our Church was Orthodox

                        Here you are deceived. Officially, this is the Russian Orthodox Church. How Orthodox is translated from Greek is the correct faith.
                        Orthodox, from the Old Russian Right to glorify. Rule is the place where the souls of the ancestors live. There are no such places in Christianity. And the cephalic nature of the church is a completely different characteristic of Orthodoxy that has nothing to do with it.
                        According to Hilarion, look here with translation and primary sources.
                        http://kob.su/forum/showthread.php?t=7035
                      4. marline
                        marline 21 October 2015 17: 45 New
                        -2
                        Oh ... Let's point by point:
                        Firstly, the Old Believers - as the schismatics call themselves (rejecting the church reform undertaken by Patriarch Nikon).
                        Secondly, when Catherine II decided to "rehabilitate" them, then, for their designation, a new term was invented (instead of "schismatics") - the Old Believers, which they do not accept, by the way.
                        Thirdly, I really like your language lessons, but how "nicknameWhich "corresponds to the Russian" polytheist "or" idolater "I do not understand at all, and I do not think that this is so; however, you may have meant that this is a tracing paper from Greek. ἐθνικός" pagan, folk "- then what is filthy ?
                        Fourth, what relationship do you trace between Vedicism (among other things, the direction of Hinduism), paganism and a bunch of pagan traditions? In Russia, that someone dug the ancient Slavic Vedas ?.
                        Fifthly, in your opinion, dual faith is coming out now, I will tell you more - polytheism in some individuals with PGM. What does this prove, apart from the flexibility of the Russian Orthodox Church?
                        Sixth, "Orthodoxy" is a literal translation of Greek from Greek. ὀρθοδοξία (orthodoxy) "correct praise."
                        And from your link, I did not find any indication that Hilarion does not have the words "Orthodox" and "faith", rather it was confirmed once again, then why did you give it?
                      5. Rivares
                        Rivares 21 October 2015 19: 20 New
                        0
                        First, did you communicate with the Old Believers? Those who are not Christians? Therefore, your first nevertheless specify for yourself so that you do not poke me at all)
                        No second dispute. But this applies to the branch of Christianity.
                        On the third. This is not Greek tracing paper. The source of the word pagan (written in slightly different letters) I described. The Old Believers (not Christians) were Russian people, so the words Gentile are not applicable to them. In the same bible, the magi who came at the birth of Christ were described quite respectfully. A polytheist a clearly applicable term to Christians (God the Father (Yahweh), the Son, the Holy Spirit, Lord Savoof - there are already four) There are no idols in Vedicism, there are Kummirs (Kummir Roda) in Catholicism there are also Kummirs (dolls of saints that are worn for Christmas, for example) The Greek-Jews brought the word Idol when it was baptized, since the traditions of the Rus were not known, the Kummirs of the gods were called in biblical terms - an idol.
                        Fourth, ask the Hindus who brought Hinduism and Yoga to them. At the Yoga Institute in India, they go through this topic. The Vedas are: Slavic-Aryan (Santi Vedas of Perun), Indian + Scandinavian sagas intersecting with them (Ingling saga)
                        Fifth, not in my opinion, for the obvious. The Russian Orthodox Church says that going to the graves of their ancestors is paganism. Walking and bringing gifts is necessary not to ancestors but to priests.
                        in the sixth ὀρθοδοξία (orthodoxy) - the translation in your interpretation should sound "correct glorification". And foreign words take root completely and with meaning. Islam is called as Islam, not as the word "order", we call Sharia as Sharia and not as "order of law"
                        On the other hand, Hilarion has "pravovarnykh saintsih father" and the word Orthodoxy is not clearly tied to Christianity.
                      6. marline
                        marline 22 October 2015 09: 40 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Rivares
                        First of all, did you communicate with the Old Believers? Those who are not Christians?

                        Of course, I talked with native-believers, or whatever you call them - Old Believers, and I know perfectly well when and how it all began. (and not so long ago, by the way, 30-40 years ago). This movement does not have any real history, and it cannot be, for the simple reason that the real, historical, Slavic paganism, to put it mildly, is very different from the modern "analogue".
                        Are you a Rodnover? Do you know who came up with this word?
                        Quote: Rivares
                        On the third. This is not Greek tracing paper. The source of the word pagan I have described.

                        Perhaps I was not seriously interested in this, we will remain with our own.
                        Quote: Rivares
                        The Old Believers (not Christians) were Russian people, so the words Gentile are not applicable to them.

                        Paganism, an established term for pre-Christian polytheistic religions. Do not substitute concepts.
                        Quote: Rivares
                        Polytheist clearly applicable term to christians

                        There is an absolutely clear answer to this question: Christianity (Orthodoxy) is monotheism.
                        Everything, in general, is simple, the church during its formation allowed to pray (but not worship) saints (which, by the way, included pagan deities), but at the same time God is one and indivisible.
                        Quote: Rivares
                        There are no idols in Vedicism ...

                        Vedas are needed for Vedicity. Provide them, only written in strokes and cuts. Still, the Cyrillic alphabet is a "Christian" alphabet.
                        Quote: Rivares
                        Fourth, ask the Hindus who brought Hinduism and Yoga to them.

                        Arias, I have not heard or read about the Slavs in the Vedas. "Slavs" appeared much later.
                        Quote: Rivares
                        At the Yoga Institute in India, they go through this topic. The Vedas are: Slavic-Aryan (Santi Vedas of Perun), Indian + Scandinavian sagas intersecting with them (Ingling saga)

                        About the Slavic-Aryan Vedas, too, have not heard. Provide?
                        Quote: Rivares
                        in the sixth ὀρθοδοξία (orthodoxy) - the translation in your interpretation should sound "correct glorification". And foreign words take root completely and with meaning.

                        Even in modern Russian, the word "right" has a meaning - true, correct. Doxia - in modern language - faith, in Old Russian "to believe" also "to praise".
                        Quote: Rivares
                        On the other hand, Hilarion has "pravovarnykh saintsih father" and the word Orthodoxy is not clearly tied to Christianity.

                        I wrote about the first mention, and not that it is an established term (which, of course, happened later). Be careful.
  • marline
    marline 19 October 2015 09: 38 New
    0
    Quote: Rivares
    On the contrary, the "scientific" historical circles silently shut up. A more or less intelligible explanation from the "historian" said that Tartary was the name of a certain territory. When the coat of arms of this "territory" was poked into his nose, he scratched his turnip and fell silent.

    Correctly the historian told you, that was the name of a certain territory, the question is by whom? Western geographers, who generally vaguely imagined lands beyond the outskirts.
    In general, the term Tartara itself starts from this: Historia Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus, written by Iohannes de Plano Carpini, the papal ambassador to the Mongol empire (in fact, the Mongol empire was called Tartar, only the couple did not notice how it fell apart).
    If you were an alternative specialist, then you would have studied the essence of the issue more closely, you would have looked and touched all the traditionalists here, they have, from the comments, an even more vague idea of ​​the issue.
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 19 October 2015 21: 35 New
      0
      Quote: merlin
      If you were an alternative specialist, then you would have studied the essence of the issue more closely, you would have looked and touched all the traditionalists here, they have, from the comments, an even more vague idea of ​​the issue.

      And how do you comment on the entry in the British Encyclopedia from 1771 ???
      Encyclopedia Britannica, First Edition, Volume 3, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887
      Also did not know? And tartaria appears there))
      "TARTARY, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia, bounded by Siberia on the north and west: this is called Great Tartary. The Tartars who lie south of Muscovy and Siberia, are those of Astracan, Circassia, and Dagistan, located north-west of the Caspian-sea; the Calmuc Tartars, who lie between Siberia and the Caspian-sea; the Usbec Tartars and Moguls, who lie north of Persia and India; and lastly, those of Tibet, who lie north-west of China »
      PS Fomenko I unfortunately did not read.
      1. marline
        marline 20 October 2015 08: 29 New
        -2
        Quote: Rivares
        And how do you comment on the entry in the British Encyclopedia from 1771 ??? Encyclopedia Britannica, First Edition, Volume 3, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887
        Also did not know? And tartaria appears there))

        I already wrote above that they did not notice how the Mongol Empire collapsed (once again - it was called Tartaria).
        You are not surprised that for Europeans now all Arabs are on the same face, why do you think that the situation with the Turks is different and even more so in the past?
        Quote: Rivares
        PS Fomenko I unfortunately did not read.

        Did not read, but approve?
        1. Rivares
          Rivares 20 October 2015 21: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: merlin
          Did not read, but approve?

          I didn’t read it because I don’t know about him.
          And the fact that the encyclopedists did not notice, they did not write. Judging by the maps, Tartary was somewhat different in different periods, so they noticed and described them. And the cards with tartaria are by no means one or two. And the thesis that a certain territory was called so unstable. In 2013, there was an article on the emblems and flags of tartaria at the VO.
          http://topwar.ru/31944-izvestnyy-flag-neizvestnoy-strany.html
          And the fact that the Mongol empire was marked on the maps as one of Tartaria, no one argues with this. And by the way, somewhere I heard that the Moscow Tsar was called the ruler of two Indians.
          1. marline
            marline 20 October 2015 22: 07 New
            -1
            Quote: Rivares
            Quote: merlin
            Did not read, but approve?

            I didn’t read it because I don’t know about him.

            And don’t read ... There’s no reason ... I honestly didn’t read it either, I’ve made it to the second chapter ...
            Quote: Rivares
            And the fact that the encyclopedists did not notice, they did not write. Judging by the maps, Tartary was somewhat different in different periods, so they noticed and described them. And the cards with tartaria are by no means one or two. And the thesis that a certain territory was called so unstable. And the fact that the Mongol empire was marked on the maps as one of Tartaria, no one argues with this. And by the way, somewhere I heard that the Moscow Tsar was called the ruler of two Indians.

            Well, that's how to say. Do you know the origin story of the name America? Well, here is something similar, the encyclopedists wrote, naturally translated: "tartar - some kind of Tatar eb.e.i." Well, they did not understand the Turkic-speaking peoples and the Mongols had a very vague idea. Here, for example, is a map of 1806, so on it and Japan is part of Tartary ... interestingly Shogun guessed that they were enslaved by evil tartars? lol
            Quote: Rivares
            In 2013, there was an article on the emblems and flags of tartaria at the VO.
            http://topwar.ru/31944-izvestnyy-flag-neizvestnoy-strany.html

            Google the flag of Kazan.
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 21 October 2015 00: 09 New
              -1
              Quote: merlin
              For example, the map of 1806, so Japan and it are part of Tartaria on it ... did the Shogun guess that they were enslaved by evil tartars? lol


              I don’t know about the shogun, but the samurai, those who are from AMUR, certainly knew about Tartaria and about the Moscow kingdom ...
              1. marline
                marline 21 October 2015 08: 49 New
                -1
                Firstly, the word "samurai" comes from the verb "saberu" - to serve, secondly, in Japan, the word bushi (actually, a warrior) was used more often, and thirdly, the word Cupid comes from the Tungus-Manchu languages, you sure that there is a preposition "with" and it is used in the same meaning as in Russian (or maybe in Chinese and Japanese) ???
                1. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 21 October 2015 09: 15 New
                  0
                  Quote: merlin
                  Firstly, the word "samurai" comes from the verb "saberu" - to serve, secondly, in Japan, the word bushi (actually, a warrior) was used more often, and thirdly, the word Cupid comes from the Tungus-Manchu languages, you sure that there is a preposition "with" and it is used in the same meaning as in Russian (or maybe in Chinese and Japanese) ???


                  there is nothing in common between the letters M and B, so your traditional etymology, as usual, is muddy or even dreary. Please provide an official link to the etymology of SAMURAI ...

                  thirdly, the word Cupid comes from the Tungus-Manchu languages,


                  but the "antique" AMURs "- cherubs - are they also invented by the Tungus?
                2. marline
                  marline 21 October 2015 09: 46 New
                  -1
                  Quote: war and peace
                  so your traditional etymology, as usual, is muddy or even dreary. Please bring an official link to the etymology of SAMURAI ...

                  What etymology is there? The Japanese, if you are too lazy to look at the wiki, then here:
                  "Depending on how the kanji got into the Japanese language, hieroglyphs can be used to write one or different words or, more often, morphemes. From the reader's point of view, this means that kanji have one or more readings. The choice of reading a hieroglyph depends on context, meaning, combinations with other kanji, and even place in a sentence.Some commonly used kanji have ten or more different readings. Readings are usually classified into onyomi (onyoum reading or just it) and kunyomi (kunyi reading or just kun) ... "

                  as you read in general:
                  侍: 1) [さ ぶ ら い (saburai), さ む ら い (samurai)]: minister; servant; a servant (the one who serves being nearby, for example, a waiter); 2) [さ ぶ ら い (saburai), さ む ら い (samurai)]: samurai; warrior;
                  Or:
                  武士 [ぶ し (bushi)]: samurai; warrior;

                  You cannot compare with your "etymology" with the Tungus-Manchu languages ​​.. And by the way, where is it - your etymology ???
                3. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 21 October 2015 11: 12 New
                  0
                  Quote: merlin
                  You cannot compare with your "etymology" with the Tungus-Manchu languages ​​.. And by the way, where is it - your etymology ???


                  I am a little familiar with the rules for the construction and origin of words, for example, on the CHRONOLOGIYAORG forum, we discussed the article of the philologist Zaliznyak "professional and amateur linguistics" and I can say that word studies-linguistics is not distinguished by the logic of internal rules, nor even by the observance of our own few rules and the main rule is "WE LINGUISTS ALLOW EVERYTHING, BUT THE PEOPLE WHAT WE SAY" is not a science, but a system of protecting traditional history from the side of usny and written speech. there was a Russian language, and nowadays a vile "Ukrainian" has appeared - completely synthetic and invented (well, maybe the Little Russian was the basis, but as a dialect of Russian). At the beginning of the 19th century, the POLISH was synthesized in the same way, during the creation of Bulgaria after the Berlin Congress, the BULGARIAN-MODERN, information about the creation of the Romanian (rejection of the Russian and the transition to new Italian rules) is quietly passing. Well, the funniest thing is, of course, English, such a number of Russian words and, by the way, there are no Turkic words (there are such studies) in any language of the world, it is a completely synthesized language and a corresponding people and, accordingly, a history for this people. Well, the basis of all Western languages ​​is Latin, the FIN has a book "Russian roots of ancient Latin" there are 3500 words and all have a connection with Russians.
                  And you say etymology.

                  Here is the emperor of Japan
                4. marline
                  marline 21 October 2015 11: 45 New
                  -1
                  Thanks, of course, for the review commentary on linguistics. But...
                  First, stop driving, WHERE IS YOUR ETHYMOLOGY OF THE WORD "SAMURAI" ?!
                  Next:
                  Quote: war and peace
                  I am a little familiar with the rules for the construction and origin of words ...

                  I’m glad for you, but I’m not demonstrating something yet ...
                  Quote: war and peace
                  and nowadays, a vile "Ukrainian" has appeared - completely synthetic and invented (well, maybe the Little Russian was the basis, but as a dialect of Russian)

                  Secondly, Russian, all of a sudden, is also synthetic, but, for example, English is almost analytical, these are such typological classes, if you do not know, although ... "you are a little familiar" right? the keyword is "a little".
                  Quote: war and peace
                  Well, the basis of all Western languages ​​is Latin, the FIN has a book "Russian roots of ancient Latin" there are 3500 words and all have a connection with Russians.

                  Thirdly, there is enough Anglicism in the Russian language, did it cease to be Russian from this? No, and therefore logic suggests that language is not only words ...
                  Do you know how the Turkic languages ​​differ from the Slavic?
                  Quote: war and peace
                  Here is the emperor of Japan

                  And what?
                5. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 21 October 2015 12: 22 New
                  +1
                  Quote: merlin
                  Thank you, of course, for the review commentary on linguistics. But...
                  First, stop driving, WHERE IS YOUR ETHYMOLOGY OF THE WORD "SAMURAI" ?!
                  Next:


                  here is the etymology
                  For example, Okubo Toshimichi, a hereditary samurai from the Satsuma principality, one of the "three noble people" who led the pro-imperial forces in the fight against the Tokugawa shogunate.
                6. marline
                  marline 21 October 2015 12: 37 New
                  -2
                  Quote: war and peace
                  Quote: merlin
                  Thank you, of course, for the review commentary on linguistics. But...
                  First, stop driving, WHERE IS YOUR ETHYMOLOGY OF THE WORD "SAMURAI" ?!

                  here is the etymology for you: For example, Okubo Toshimichi, a hereditary samurai from the Satsuma principality, one of the "three noble people" who led the pro-imperial forces in the fight against the Tokugawa shogunate.

                  Etymology is a branch of linguistics (comparative historical linguistics)) that studies the origin of words (and less commonly morphemes). And also - the research methodology used to identify the history of the origin of the word (or morpheme) and the very result of such identification. Also, the etymology can be understood as the very origin of the word.

                  Are you generally an adequate person? WHERE IS THE ETHYMOLOGY OF SAMURAI?
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                9. marline
                  marline 21 October 2015 13: 52 New
                  +1
                  Quote: war and peace
                  I have already explained the etymology of Uncle who needs to understand that the real samurai were not Japanese and, as a version, these were Cossacks from Amur, as the old photographs of Japanese samurai and generals say, which do not look like the Japanese, do not look like the Japanese and the emperor of Japan, and it is the old images that are embedded not only with the NH, but also explain a lot in modern politics, such an etymology is understandable to normal people not linguists ...

                  As if it is softer - it is in your delusional fantasies ...
                  There is a word "etymology", there is a definition, what is the problem? And, by the way, you used this word first, did you decide to show off? and now into the bushes: "I am not me, the horse is not mine" ... what kind of Cossack are you? you just g ... dishonor us all ...
                  Quote: war and peace
                  ... but to play your games and climb into the jungle of far-fetched PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC rules, look for dur_aka ...

                  Already found, look in the mirror and you will find.
                10. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 21 October 2015 14: 10 New
                  0
                  Quote: merlin
                  There is a word "etymology", there is a definition, what is the problem? And, by the way, you used this word first, did you decide to show off? and now into the bushes: "I am not me, the horse is not mine" ...


                  Well, uncle, you are a typical tradition, when the thief himself, then the first rule is to shout louder than everyone else - stop the thief, did I get into a fool ... samurai-saber? these are your delights, your "samurai" is not explained neither in Japanese nor in European, but it is well explained in Russian

                  joke - SHOULD HOW HOW THE MODERS SHOWN SECUTES, at least explain their actions?
                11. marline
                  marline 21 October 2015 15: 26 New
                  -2
                  Quote: war and peace
                  Well, uncle, you are a typical tradition, when the thief himself, then the first rule is to shout louder than everyone else - stop the thief, did I get into a fool ... samurai-saber? these are your delights, your "samurai" is not explained neither in Japanese nor in European, but it is well explained in Russian

                  Well, explain ... You can’t, so there’s nothing to yell here, like a woman on a drive.
                12. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 21 October 2015 15: 28 New
                  0
                  Quote: merlin
                  Quote: war and peace
                  Well, uncle, you are a typical tradition, when the thief himself, then the first rule is to shout louder than everyone else - stop the thief, did I get into a fool ... samurai-saber? these are your delights, your "samurai" is not explained neither in Japanese nor in European, but it is well explained in Russian

                  Well, explain ... You can’t, so there’s nothing to yell here, like a woman on a drive.


                  I already did this when people tell you to keep your ears open ...
                13. marline
                  marline 21 October 2015 18: 33 New
                  -2
                  In short, you have no explanation. You are not a Cossack, you are a woman from the import, as I said ...
                14. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 21 October 2015 23: 49 New
                  0
                  Quote: merlin
                  In short, you have no explanation. You are not a Cossack, you are a woman from the import, as I said ...


                  Well, as a stuffed brainless creature, it would be nice for you to take a walk to the magical land of brains, this is the last hope, you are not on a forum where people communicate humanly, but a club of demented trades ...
                15. marline
                  marline 22 October 2015 09: 46 New
                  -2
                  You don’t know the Russian language either;)
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      7. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 37 New
        -1
        I already wrote once that I wanted to invent such a commentator for my materials ... well, for better PR! But then he remembered the Chinese saying: sit quietly and the corpse of your enemy will swim past you along the river! That is - wait, God will send what you need! And he sent, even better than I thought!
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  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 34 New
    0
    He is inadequate - he is Fomenid! That says it all. Trying to prove something to fomencid is the same as hitting shit with a stick. A lot of spray and stench, but no use!
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 32 New
    -1
    Shave a mustache, a kobin on the head - and poured jap!
  • Glot
    Glot 21 October 2015 19: 55 New
    0
    Shave a mustache, a kobin on the head - and poured jap!


    This is yes, an ordinary Japanese in the European image of those years.

    By the way, about the "head".
    All Fomenkoids and their ilk should highly recommend one remedy.
    A simple hat for ALL-day wear.
    Oh, Fomenkoids, we look at the step-by-step picture / instruction - we make it - we wear it NOT REMOVING !! laughing
  • War and Peace
    War and Peace 21 October 2015 22: 54 New
    -2
    TI caliber rapprochement
  • Glot
    Glot 22 October 2015 10: 19 New
    -1
    soil TI


    I will explain the essence of the problem to you now.
    Listen and remember, and most importantly, penetrate.
    So ...
    There is no such thing as a "traditional history", it is like you invented it, in your network zoos like "chronologyorg" and so on .. No.
    There is - HISTORY, and there are - alternative interpretations, discussions on the theme of various events, versions of various moments in history. That's all. It is alternative interpretations, reasoning, versions and no more, the vast majority of which are absolutely unscientific, unprovable and amateurish.
    That's all. request
  • War and Peace
    War and Peace 22 October 2015 12: 42 New
    -1
    Quote: Glot
    soil TI


    I will explain the essence of the problem to you now.
    Listen and remember, and most importantly, penetrate.
    So ...
    There is no such thing as a "traditional history", it is like you invented it, in your network zoos like "chronologyorg" and so on .. No.
    There is - HISTORY, and there are - alternative interpretations, discussions on the theme of various events, versions of various moments in history. That's all. It is alternative interpretations, reasoning, versions and no more, the vast majority of which are absolutely unscientific, unprovable and amateurish.
    That's all. request



    how is it not? when there is, the traditional or canonical version of history is the delusional conclusions of Russophobic, mainly German historians of the 18-19 centuries, when there were no Russians in the Russian Academy of Sciences. When the BIG LIE replaced the entire real history of the Russian people, the ancestral memory was taken away from the Russians and in place stupid fictions about "other Rome or other Greece" or "other Egypt" were put on their stories. Traditions fight for long chronologies, but, like Shpakovsky, they do not own the dating of artifacts, so they mold a hunchback on any archaeological finds. And most importantly, there are no answers to simple questions
    horse stirrups
    about bronze swords
    bronze razors
    - about the forests in greece from which "hundreds of galleys" were made
    about triremes and decimal
    -Tataromongolskomigu, almost no question there are no intelligible answers
    about the Kulikovo battle, where is this place?
    about information carriers that live for thousands of years? papyrus, paper, parchment.
    - about the monomakh hat - the same thing
    - old images and maps on which is not shown what TI tells us
    -and the most important thing about the dating of artifacts is the weakest point among tradikov
    this is only a minor list of questions for TUE. Why did it happen that history researchers were divided into traditional and non-traditional? Well, it's easy to understand traditions SELECTLY do not answer questions or so they answer that people who are accustomed to logic and the real essence of things built on physical laws are not satisfied with babbling about "ancient weapons" or "Tatar-Mongolskoe".
    I think, just the opposite, there is TI, but there is no "alternative" history, but there is a REAL history based on PROOF, and not on manipulation, suppression and inventions for the sake of cheating regimes ...
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  • War and Peace
    War and Peace 21 October 2015 12: 27 New
    -1
    Quote: merlin
    Secondly, Russian, all of a sudden, is also synthetic, but, for example, English is almost analytical, these are such typological classes, if you do not know, although ... "you are a little familiar" right? the keyword is "a little".


    Well, as usual, you demonstrate stupidity when you can no longer do this, because everything is clear to everyone, English in our language does not disguise as Russian, and in English, on the contrary, Russian words are given out for their own or Latin ...

    Quote: merlin
    And what?

    over the shoulder and the tip in the teeth ...
  • marline
    marline 21 October 2015 12: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: war and peace
    Well, as usual, you demonstrate stupidity when you can no longer do this, because everything is clear to everyone, English in our language does not disguise as Russian, and in English, on the contrary, Russian words are given out for their own or Latin ...

    You, as usual, demonstrate your complete ignorance.
    Stop suffering garbage, and disguise yourself as an adult uncle, go to school to study, young Padadavan.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 40 New
    0
    And what about the Russian word knight disguised in the same English? In German, it does not disguise - the riter, in Bulgarian, the Rizar, while in the French, Italians, Spaniards and English - it is disguised. And the British really quite stupid ...
  • War and Peace
    War and Peace 21 October 2015 12: 17 New
    -1
    and here are the samurai themselves latest images

    For example, Okubo Toshimichi, a hereditary samurai from the Satsuma principality, one of the "three noble people" who led the pro-imperial forces in the fight against the Tokugawa shogunate.
    good samurai right?
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 41 New
    0
    And narrow eyes over! Whiskers - shave, samurai kobin on head, pigtail and poured jap!
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 30 New
    0
    The main meaning of all upper verbal diarrhea is "a little". And we judge the science that people have been studying for years!
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  • Turkir
    Turkir 21 October 2015 00: 28 New
    +2
    I downloaded the map .. looked at Japan .. it is written - the Japanese Empire and it is not said anywhere that it is Tartaria. The same color misled you.
    Funny map: without Sakhalin, a stump of Kamchatka, etc.
    Thank. You understand that in the minds of contemporaries of the map, what an idea of ​​the World was going on.
    1806 year. World Encyclopedia.
    20.07.1806/1805/XNUMX The Paris world is concluded. The war of XNUMX between France and Russia ceased.
    August 6.08.1806, XNUMX The Holy Roman Empire after the refusal of Emperor Franz II of the German crown ceased to exist.
    09.1806 Fourth anti-French coalition (England, Russia, Prussia and Sweden).
    2.09.1806 An avalanche caused by the fall of the suddenly collapsed peak of Rassberg peak in the Swiss Alps caused a forest fire and flood. Four villages in the Goldau Valley were flooded. Killed 800 people.
    14.10.1806/XNUMX/XNUMX In two interconnected battles (near Jena and Auerstedt), the French army of Napoleon I defeated the Prussian troops, after which the French occupied almost all of Prussia (including Berlin).
    ---
    Pushkin is 7 years old.
    1. marline
      marline 21 October 2015 08: 33 New
      +1
      The signature under the card was: purple - "Chinese Tartary", yellow - "independent" Tartaria.
      The map from the wiki was taken, I did not have to search for a long time, there is a signature there.
      It is inserted, as you correctly noticed for:
      Quote: Turkir
      You understand that in the minds of contemporaries of the map, what an idea of ​​the World was going on.
  • Rivares
    Rivares 21 October 2015 13: 06 New
    +1
    Quote: merlin
    Google the flag of Kazan.

    Is that with an owl ??
    1. marline
      marline 21 October 2015 13: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Rivares
      Quote: merlin
      Google the flag of Kazan.

      Is that with an owl ??

      This, which with the black dragon, I agree, is not quite similar, but still ... Honestly, our two-headed has changed a lot.
      For the rest there are no objections?
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 21 October 2015 15: 09 New
        0
        Quote: merlin
        For the rest there are no objections?

        So I have your position on the Golden Horde period and I do not know whether to agree or not. My briefly following. What went on at school is not linked (contradicts them) with facts. Of course, I can’t build a whole picture, but I also can’t accept the tale of 300-year-old Horde slavery (as well as Adolf’s claims that the Slavs are slave people).
        Here is religious (Christian) slavery, everything is confirmed here (but we are silent about it). Cards with tartaria, coats of arms and flags in bulk, and there was not a word about them in our history. As well as the fact that most of the monasteries and temples were built and covered with gold in the midst of the "yoke" I am already silent about the markers in the form of burning libraries. And the fact that an ideological war is being waged against our history can be seen with the naked eye.
      2. marline
        marline 21 October 2015 16: 45 New
        0
        Quote: Rivares
        My briefly following. What went on at school is not linked (contradicts them) with facts. Of course, I can’t build a whole picture, but I also can’t accept the tale of 300-year-old Horde slavery (as well as Adolf’s claims that the Slavs are slave people).

        School picture is little / not contrary to the facts that are taught at school. In general, this is an absolutely true and correct story, with the exception of small details that can be ignored.
        As for the "slave people" and "300 year old Horde slavery" - everything is not as bad as you think. In general, strictly speaking - this is a Western view of our history, appeared after the revolution (did you think? Marxists are Westernizers, Marx could not stand the Mongol-Tatars, and even Russia ...). Before the revolution, Russian historians held several different views on the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
      3. Rivares
        Rivares 21 October 2015 17: 36 New
        0
        Quote: merlin
        Generally speaking, strictly speaking, this is a Western view of our history, appeared after the revolution (did you still think? Marxists are Westerners, Marx could not stand the Mongol-Tatars, and even Russia ...). Before the revolution, Russian historians held several other views on the Mongol-Tatar yoke.

        Marx is a Jew, and they usually can’t even hate anyone))
        There were many periods before the revolution. A textbook for the son of Ivan the Terrible writes one thing. Peter invited the Germans, who did not even know the Russian language, so that they would write the correct story for the "Russian cattle". The communists did the same. The meaning is always the same - you were slaves to a bad master, and became servants to a good one. Along the way, removing all the good deeds
        from the history of a "bad" master, preferably by changing religion (from Vedicism to Christianity, from Christianity to socialism)
        Yes, and the school picture in different years is very different. Picture 70 and 00 - the difference is 30 years and the history is like that of different states))
      4. marline
        marline 21 October 2015 18: 47 New
        +1
        Some youthful maximalism. Rivares, you will not find simple answers to complex questions, there is no point in looking for them. Try to be objective.
        And do not look everywhere for a ZOG conspiracy.
      5. marline
        marline 21 October 2015 18: 47 New
        -2
        Some youthful maximalism. Rivares, you will not find simple answers to complex questions, there is no point in looking for them. Try to be objective.
        And do not look everywhere for a ZOG conspiracy.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 47 New
    0
    Rivares - You seem to give the impression of an intelligent person. And here's the question: who is the war against our history? Have you read the books of the same Englishmen (yy, is an Englishwoman always shitting?) About our history? Where is the lie and distortion? You know that they have a lot of books by our authors, from Chernenko and Gorelik to Nosov. And where is the ideological struggle? You do not confuse history with politics?
  • Rivares
    Rivares 21 October 2015 17: 06 New
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    You do not confuse history with politics

    I do not confuse. They are closely related in my opinion. "If you want to take away the future from the people, take away the past from them." If a smart and capable boy is constantly told that his grandfather and father were drinking hard and could drink a lot, stealing in carriages, and could easily kill a man, then who will grow out of the boy? And if we say that his ancestors conquered all the enemies that went to his homeland, were honest and worthy people, then the result will be different. The same principle works for nations.
    The answer to the question of who is being conducted is closely related to the answer to the question of who wants to take over the resources of our country. And not only the British are on the list ...
    Where I cannot clearly answer the lies and distortions, I have not unfortunately read the indicated authors. It is clearly visible in Rezun and Soros.
  • Gomunkul
    Gomunkul 18 October 2015 11: 39 New
    -3
    Fomenkovtsy are just very aggressively trying to prove their fantasies
    Fomenko and Putin bit. wink
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 18 October 2015 12: 03 New
    +7
    It was not just ancestors. The enemy was strong and merciless. All the more respect for their courage and fidelity to duty.
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  • serverny
    serverny 18 October 2015 14: 40 New
    +1
    "fucking state", "civil war" ... damn it, where did such stubborn ideas sucked out of the finger, so many equally stubborn followers?

    Einstein was right about the infinity of human stupidity - after all, those who rode on the Maidan believed in the Great Good for All.
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 18 October 2015 15: 40 New
      +2
      You see how many of them came running here. lol

      These characters are not dominated by stupidity, but the opinion that they know the truth about history, and official historians carefully hide it from all the others ...
  • Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 18 October 2015 16: 49 New
    0
    "... Why should the philosophy of life in Tatarstan be different from Russian or European? Russian philosophy was built on perverted historiography, developed under the guidance of German historians who knew only European traditions. Nikolai Karamzin was the first to voice the Peter's execution, Sergey Soloviev continued, and Vasily Klyuchevsky ended. They built the history not so much of Russia as for the Russian state. In addition, Klyuchevsky was a professor at the Theological Academy, which left an imprint on his works. His concept of history as the colonization of territories and peoples, their Russification and Christianization could not become the basis for foreigners. was assigned only to the Great Russians, other peoples - the subject of colonization, social background along with natural disasters.
    The whole story began with Kiev, as a supposedly Russian city. But after all, in the Middle Ages it was the Khazar town of Kuyaba, around which the Slavic tribes of the Polyans, Drevlyans, Krivichi and Turkic tribes of Torks, Black Klobuk, Berendeys lived. The Kiev principality was captured by the Vikings (Swedes), since Kiev was a significant fortress on the way from the Varangians to the Greeks. Official historians not only perverted the beginning of Russian history, but also ignored the equally influential Volga-Kama Bulgaria and the even more influential Khazar Khaganate. Before the appearance of the Russians proper, from a mixture of Slavic and Finnish tribes, the Khazars and Bulgars already existed as state-forming peoples, and before these states there existed the Türkic Kaganate, whose territory stretched from Altai to the Danube. And all this is the history of Russia, ignored by the three Karamzin-Soloviev-Klyuchevsky. Peter's historical philosophy was preserved in its key principles in Soviet times and in present-day Russia, its inferiority was fully manifested when the "foreigners" fled to their states, and the closest, supposedly most kindred people, the Ukrainian, ended up in a hostile camp towards the Great Russians. Without Ukraine, there is no chance to restore the former empire, and therefore the whole old philosophy turned out to be useless ... "
    Vice President of RT Academy of Sciences Rafael Khakimov
    Source: http: //www.business-gazeta.ru/article/143402/
  • Vladimir-R
    Vladimir-R 18 October 2015 17: 02 New
    +1
    You read directly / connoisseurs / .., there’s nowhere else to go .. / Lovely scolding .. only amuse themselves .. / .., small skirmishes at the regional level .. Immediately after Batu’s conquest of vast territories, people who have an original culture and consider that they did not enter the empire of the Mongols, but they were forcibly forced and bent to it .. and their desire for freedom .., pushed for resistance .. The first mass uprising began when Batu conquered Europe .. and covered a vast territory from the north Of the Caucasus. to the upper reaches of the Volga .. The peoples inhabiting these territories were able to nominate talented military leaders from their ranks and inflicted a number of defeats on the Mongols .. Only the arrival of additional troops of Batu could turn the tide .. and then not immediately .. The confrontation of nomadic peoples and settled ... at first, those who were defeated .. ended with the collapse of state formations of the first, as they were not able to create and develop .. In this dispute, those who worked rather than parasitized won .. Attempts to rewrite history, miserable and wretched .. because they contradict national memory .. captured in the annals .. There is enough information to understand what happened many centuries ago, in the vastness of our homeland ..
  • valeri311
    valeri311 18 October 2015 17: 15 New
    +2
    By the way about the West. There at that time the 100 year war ended and internal dismantlings of the feudal lords of England and France were going on. In my opinion, in terms of strategy, logistics and national cohesion of the elites, our ancestors were clearly ahead of the European peoples.
    1. Spnsr
      Spnsr 18 October 2015 23: 51 New
      +2
      that's what this is about! the point is not that Russia is the heir to Tartarus, although they still scare each other in the west, not just Tartarus, but Russia, and the fact that after the Romanovs came, there were no more people who could say, “I am August’s heir ", This means that the collapse of Imeria, and then the union of several new ones on the fragments of the old, led to many wars of that era ... and laid the foundation for all wars and the following centuries ... and these creeps of pin-dos-tan west of Russia, in the person of Ukraine, is not just an attempt to lead them to dermocracy, but a continuation of the attempts to break up the peoples united in the territory of the former Tartar, first in the person of the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union ....
      if you are adults, then you don’t have to read the story, but you just need to analyze the story you see more deeply, and you can see a lot in it, and not only the present, and the near past, but more ....
      after the death of the Rurikovich! (in those days Scandinavia was not yet settled at all, and in the beginning of the 18th century they still spoke Russian), there is no one who could claim to inherit, but to confuse the Tatars with the Mongoloids, this is not just blasphemy and ignorance, especially in view of the same that the army of Dmitry Donskoy was called forest grass, and when listing the grass along with others, it was also called the Cossacks, who from time immemorial considered themselves Slavs, as at one time the whole of Europe, and the dna of the inhabitants of those republics, which you probably because of pin .dos. grants are ranked among the direct heirs of the Mongoloids, quite European, not Mongolian !!!
      Kazakhs were already infected with this kuynya, and they sincerely believed that the direct heirs of the Genghis Khan ulus ... only where is he Chingiz Khan? and even if they find, then someone will vryatli know, because the devil of the Mongoloid and DNA may not be with him !!!
  • Glot
    Glot 18 October 2015 17: 24 New
    +4
    A picture on the topic of disputes with empty-headed Tartarians / reptilians / Fomenoids

    (they are on the right). laughing
    1. Spnsr
      Spnsr 18 October 2015 23: 56 New
      +1
      Quote: Glot
      A picture on the topic of disputes with empty-headed Tartarians / reptilians / Fomenoids

      (they are on the right). laughing

      it’s even more difficult to convince the type who had read the yellow press, and having driven into his head that this is the basis of all the foundations ... there are even more of them lol
    2. Spnsr
      Spnsr 19 October 2015 00: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: Glot
      A picture on the topic of disputes with empty-headed Tartarians / reptilians / Fomenoids

      (they are on the right). laughing


      and also for those especially read by the yellow press lol
      Fomenko does not deny the history that is taught at school, he just interprets it a little differently !!! and this, let's leave the Mongols in a modern interpretation in the north of China! we will not take into account the Rurikovich, they were all poisoned at the beginning of the seventeenth century! we only leave that the horde was from the east, and the whole west paid tribute !!! it turns out the same story, only in this story is there a basis for negativity from the west, which is why their works treat Tartarus as an afterlife, especially since they did not know anything about the east! and they were very afraid, and that was later, in the West, in the genes, fear of Russia! first, the Romanov conspirators from the same wave were their allies, and then, when Russia began to grow from Muscovy and acquire the territory of Tartaria, it began to terrify them with renewed vigor! the Swedes were given lyulee near Poltava, they began to grow in territories and in the west, including Finns, the Baltic states, and half of what is called livonia or Lithuania in history, and in another way, a white horde or white Russia, whose little fragment could not be Europeanized in the person of Belarus, but all attempts are being made !!! part of Ukraine is included there !.
      then south, freeing the balkans from the so-called Turkish yoke! but here it’s clear, here it’s clear, either their Romanovs or the Romanov’s hands of the Turks, by this time previously unenlightened peoples had already learned to weave intrigues lol , and this is the territory of the blue horde !!! with the Romanovs, the golden horde grew in the territories of the white and blue hordes !!! and where did it start ?! from a small throne in Third Rome !!! the city itself and the surrounding territories !!!
      someone came himself, as now, someone was forced by neighbors, for example, the Armenians did not want to become Turks, this is how Donbas does not want to become Ukrainians now, and there are many nations who helped, for example, like some time ago with the USSR , and enslaved peoples !!! and someone just stood in the way, but even here, to the honor of the Romanovs, they did not act like pin. do.sa with the Indians, but simply persistently convinced that this was about the Caucasus, and some Balkan states.
      if you take the bible, nov had three sons ....
      the Scythians had three peoples! some were engaged in agriculture, others were cattle-breeding, others were warriors ...
      history must be studied, not crammed ....
      otherwise tomorrow they will come and say that you are from the tribe, I'm sorry. Tutka, and must go and fulfill his duties .....
      1. Glot
        Glot 19 October 2015 06: 41 New
        0
        Fomenko does not deny the history that is taught at school, he just interprets it a little differently !!!


        Yeah, really different. smile
        Here are at least a few excerpts from Fomenko regarding Dr. Egyptian pyramids:
        -“Many people think that the Egyptian pyramids have no analogues in Europe. In fact, this is not so. The analogs of the pyramids are well known in Eurasia - and, in particular, in Russia. These are KURGANS. Note that the kurgan was folded in this way, - that is, as a church - FROM THE BEGINNING.Despite its archaism, the large Egyptian pyramids were erected at a very high level of construction technology.Probably, their creators, the Horde conquerors of the XIV-XVI centuries, reproduced in their structure the ancient and no longer used form of the house or churches."
        Well and so on and so forth. That is, the pyramids are Christian churches built by the Horde. laughing
        And then he develops his thought:
        - "Mounds-pyramids were built not only in Eurasia and Africa, but also in America. Apparently - not earlier than the XNUMXth century, when the wave of the Horde-Ottoman conquest reached there. The architecture of the Mexican" ancient "pyramids and palaces clearly shows connections with European Russian - the Horde pyramids-barrows. "
        Here it already appears that the Horde built the pyramids in America, although he already mixed it with the Ottomans in one heap. laughing laughing
        Here is such an interpretation. wassat
        But he also has some other stories about the pyramids. They are contradictory to themselves.
        Anyway, there Petrosyan is resting. laughing
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 19 October 2015 07: 47 New
          -1
          Timur Shaov writes: In the ancient Scythian city of Paris
          The Persians lived, or rather the Bulgars,
          And they are Turks, and they are
          Not quite reasonable Khazars.

          Romulus with Ram, they are Dir with Askold,
          They avenged them for Igor, for their brother.
          The battle went on the field Kulikovo,
          In place of the modern Arbat.
        2. Spnsr
          Spnsr 19 October 2015 11: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Glot
          Yeah, really different. smile

          do not consider it rudeness, in any way, but as one friend of mine from the North Caucasus says, "you mom be ashamed that it was different"
          only eyewitnesses have reason to say! therefore, to argue the opposite is simply not logical, especially since the French came there first laughing
          I can also add that the story when the Persian king tried to defeat the Scythians is very close to the invasion of Napoleon in Russia, more precisely for a work of art, when the Persian king chased after the Scythians, and then, as usual, got a lyule! and again, I don’t want to hurt or chevo, as my friend from the North Caucasus says, “swear by your mother”, what was different ?!
          An example from the nearest history, do you think Russia attacked Ukraine, and the militias shot down a Boeing ???!
          1. Glot
            Glot 19 October 2015 12: 15 New
            +1
            do not consider it rudeness, in any way, but as one friend of mine from the North Caucasus says, "you mom be ashamed that it was different"


            But what rudeness can be. smile
            Do you believe the statements of Fomenko that the pyramids in Egypt were built by the Horde in the 15th century and that these are their (our) churches? Do you also believe that the pyramids on the American continent were also built by the Horde in the same 15th century, when it sailed there to conquer America? Indeed, so Fomenko claims.
            Well fine, believe. I will not dissuade you. What for ? laughing
            1. Spnsr
              Spnsr 19 October 2015 14: 04 New
              0
              Well, for starters, we can say the following, that I know that the pyramids were built by those who could build them, that the Ataman empire, which occupied the whole south, more precisely central and eastern Asia, as well as the north of Africa, this is the blue horde, from here if you want, you don’t want to logically say that the Horde built the pyramids, besides, by that time progress had been made in such technologies, but to say that it was before, the height of ignorance! wink
              and about what I believe, Vladimir, like Karl, did not initially have a name, but a title, and from here it is very logical to say that the city of Vladimir was not named after Vladimir there, but it originally had all the properties that it expects this name, Own the World, and when it was the capital of a single empire, that is, the first Rome!
              forgive me for my friend’s question, “swear by mom” what was wrong
              you shake things at the face of crafts, just crafts, and chutli not to the utmost ... swear that this is an artifact.
              history is not what others tell you, but what you see yourself and draw obvious conclusions from this
              1. Glot
                Glot 19 October 2015 14: 45 New
                0
                Well, for starters, we can say the following, that I know that the pyramids were built by those who could build them, that the Ataman empire, which occupied the whole south, more precisely central and eastern Asia, as well as the north of Africa, this is the blue horde


                Yes ? What is the "ataman empire"? Maybe Ottoman (Ottoman)? So how is the "blue horde" out there?
                The pyramids.
                You can simply compare the culture of those who built the pyramids in Egypt, on the American continent with the culture of Osman, Russia, the Horde. They are different in all respects, different. And you don’t even have to go deep into their study in order to understand this.
                And somehow, if the Ottomans, or "Russia-Horde" built these pyramids there, in Egypt, then why are they not even here? Not logical somehow. smile
                What else is there? Oh yes, technology.
                Do not think that the Ancients were dumber than us. And building technologies have already been studied. They were and allowed.
                As for games in city names, this is not even worth discussing. It’s in a manger, there in the city. wink
                Fakes?
                Well, there are so many fakes. What exactly is fake? Or is that all? Yes, yes, this is a conspiracy of purchased or zombie reptilian isTORYs. laughing laughing I read about it here yesterday. laughing laughing
                1. Spnsr
                  Spnsr 19 October 2015 15: 54 New
                  0
                  Quote: Glot
                  . What exactly is fake?

                  I said fakes, I said crafts, because then there was nothing to fake, but to give something a date and assign an artifact to any event is not difficult ...
                  Quote: Glot
                  Yes ? What is the "ataman empire"? Maybe Ottoman (Ottoman)? So how is the "blue horde" out there?

                  Why not? the fact that Mengli Giray communicates with Ivan 3 is, but why something else, well, no matter how, right? and don’t have to pull the letters, besides, it says exactly what you wanted to write, and as you call it, even though the Arab conquest of southern Europe is your right, it’s not a fact that everything is the way you want others to believe!
                  why do you think that someone should and must believe in crafts, and the interpretation necessary for someone, and what makes you insist on a story that has everything only crafts, but no logic, and which is increasingly losing its foundation? but you insistently insist that there were Mongols, only where they were, the Roman Empire, only where it was, just do not mow the Italians ... was Macedonian, just connected with it?
                  I’m not saying that it wasn’t, it just looks more like the color of the skin and the cut of the eyes was different, and civilization had a different direction of movement, and Macedonian, this is someone's stolen fame, since they themselves could not be glorious, and take it from others, if not yourself, so that the other does not have it!
                  do not read the yellow press, but live in history, observe, and the obvious will give you clues to many riddled puzzles ...
                  What do you say that the whole of Europe considered itself Slavs?
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 19 October 2015 16: 12 New
                    0
                    ..... what do you say .....


                    Yes, I won’t even say anything.
                    Here above, I posted a picture. She is better than a thousand words, clearly shows everything. smile
                    There is science - history based on the evidence base, on facts, on sources and so on. And there is - anti-science and often even feverish nonsense, which has neither logic, nor facts, nor evidence of this nonsense.
                    And when a person does not give any evidence of this or that, with foam at the mouth (figuratively) begins to shout that - everyone lies, deceiving all around and crafts, then this person can continue to play with the word, with permutations of letters, play the names of cities and so on. and so on, it is his personal right. To dissuade this ... look again at the picture above. laughing Since knowledge and understanding is zero. What can I say, to prove - nothing. Alas. As my friend CIN says, I don’t even spend my time arguing with fools, it’s more expensive for me, and it makes no sense. smile
                    1. Spnsr
                      Spnsr 19 October 2015 18: 26 New
                      0
                      Quote: Glot
                      There is science - history based on the evidence base, on facts, on sources and so on. And there is - ant

                      so we are just talking about the sources and we say that you miss the facts in the same annals, but treat the basis of the “history” type
                      do not read the yellow press and especially do not look at crafts
                      and take as a basis the logic of things and objective facts, present events to help you !!!
                      1. Glot
                        Glot 19 October 2015 19: 08 New
                        0
                        so we are just talking about the sources and we say that you miss the facts in the same annals, but treat the basis of the “history” type


                        Ah, here it is. Well then, provide me with the facts that:
                        - The pyramids in Egypt and America were built by the Horde in the XNUMXth century A.D.
                        - The whole story that we know is a fake, or as you say it is a craft.
                        At least these two facts.
                        We’ll check you for lice.
                        If there are no FACTS DOCUMENTED, then you will forgive the rudeness - empty-handed.
                        Yes, and decipher me pliz that there is "ataman empire" as you called it. Exactly. Where was she when. What kind of "atamans" have formed an empire. Or, Ottoman? But this is all about the pyramids of Egypt and America, in your opinion.
                        Yes, and also with links to sources. It is on the SOURCES and not on Fomenko and Co.
                        We are waiting, sir. smile
                      2. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 19 October 2015 20: 15 New
                        0
                        no one says that the Russians built the pyramids, there is no such evidence, but the fact that historians falsify history can already be said with certainty, the same Manetho with his opus was something that could not be.


                        as for the Ataman-Ottoman Empire, there is some evidence that in 17th century they spoke Slavic-Russian in Port Horde, see article


                        Ottoman star and death

                        Roman Statin

                        Today, the Ottoman language is considered dead. But some hundred years ago, this “great and mighty” language, comparable in terms of vocabulary with modern English, dominated the vast expanses of the Ottoman Empire. What was that language? How did it come about and why did it cease to exist?


                        http://new.chronologia.org/volume13/statin_osman.php
                      3. Glot
                        Glot 19 October 2015 20: 34 New
                        0
                        no one says that the Russians built the pyramids ......


                        We read above, excerpts from Fomenko about the pyramids.
                        This time!
                        Russia-Horde whose expression?
                        We bring together ONCE and this is TWO.
                        THREE:
                        - Provide evidence of falsification of Istria. REINFORCED CONCRETE !!!
                        There is ? Without reference to the ravings of new chronologists and other charlatans.
                        Official, documentary evidence of forgery !!!
                        There is ? No ? So - hollow!
                        FOUR:
                        Ottoman or "Ataman"?
                        The same question, if you like, to the speaker above:
                        What kind of "chieftains" and again - evidence, official, documentary. Links to new chronological resources with "evidence" of ignoramuses or charlatans are not accepted. On the question of languages. Now many people speak English in our country and what is OUR language ?!
                        There is ? No ? Wasteland!
                        Waiting, sir ...
                      4. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 20 October 2015 13: 39 New
                        -1
                        We read above, excerpts from Fomenko about the pyramids.
                        This time!
                        Russia-Horde whose expression?
                        We bring together ONCE and this is TWO.


                        Probably, their creators, the Horde conquerors of the XIV-XVI centuries, reproduced in their device the ancient and no longer used form of a house or church. "


                        Is that an uncle? how incomprehensible, here the main word is "probably" FINs do not insist on reconstructions, as tradition, but operate with their iron evidence base ie math ...

                        Evidence of falsification of Istria is given. REINFORCED CONCRETE !!!


                        yes, please, have you heard about this? what is it? they say the "crown-crown" of Russian princes, all European rulers even where the fatherland sticks to the sole after the rain had crowns, but the largest medieval state RUSSIA MONARCHS DID WITHOUT A CROWN. How can this be? It is clear that something is wrong here. And the hat itself, for which 1000 years cannot be real, since the basis of the skin of a sable or marten does not live so much, so again a reconstruction-fake? How do you like this evidence?

                        Official, documentary evidence of forgery !!!
                        There is ? No ? So - hollow!


                        -dispersed and pours
                        the triangle will be drunk
                        be it a parallelepiped
                        - be it a circle of vigorous louse ...

                        there is a very good-quality study by Fomenko and Nosovsky "Study of the Radziwill Chronicle" in which they found that
                        -faked pagination
                        -forged MAIN PAGE of the annals, which refers to the calling of Rurik to the throne -Norman theory
                        - the page on which there is a link of the Radzivilovsky chronicle to modern chronology is forged.
                        The study is detailed and absolutely transparent according to the methods of the study itself ...
                        http://chronologia.org/seven4_1/0104.html
                        http://www.chronologia.org/rare/radzivil/index.html


                        FOUR:
                        Ottoman or "Ataman"?
                        The same question, if you like, to the speaker above:
                        What kind of "chieftains" and again - evidence, official, documentary. Links to new chronological resources with "evidence" of ignoramuses or charlatans are not accepted


                        we are looking for what is the etymology of the word OTTOMAN, we discover Russophobe Fasmer and we see that the OTTOMAN is Ottoman, only spoiled, that’s an explanation of traditional history. It’s always dull.
                        Well, in the mainstream of the NH OTOMANSKY is the ATAMAN EMPIRE, everything is transparent and the etymology of the word and the subjects of the empire. To my article of ROMAN STATIN attached above about the origin of the Ottoman language, a logical picture develops.
                        Article, as I understand it, you did not even look? there are citations of medieval authors, the man tried in vain. Well, what to take from you?
                      5. Glot
                        Glot 20 October 2015 16: 17 New
                        0
                        Well, I’ll answer you, too, although you also merged into empty talk, which means - empty-handed.
                        But not the point. I will answer for the last time in this thread.
                        So to speak - a control in the head. laughing
                        So, right on the points.
                        Say:
                        , here the main word is "probably" FINs do not insist on reconstructions, as tradition, but operate with their iron evidence base, i.e. math ...

                        And now carefully re-read the written, thoughtfully.
                        In your opinion, it turns out that the "iron evidence base" of your FIN is - probably ?! laughing
                        It's five !!! laughing
                        Next, say:
                        yes, please- HAT MONOMAH heard about this? ....

                        And what is wrong with the Monomakh hat? Not happy that she is well preserved?
                        So such a term - restoration heard? Or did your FINA not tell you about this?
                        And, doesn’t it bother you that in Europe the kings were crowned with crowns, and with us - with a golden hat?
                        And what, it was necessary as in Europe or what? laughing
                        Google about Byzantine ties. It will become clear where the Golden Hat came from.
                        Next, say:
                        there is a very good-quality study by Fomenko and Nosovsky "Research of the Radziwill Chronicle" in which they found ....

                        Not okay ! I asked for academic evidence of forgery, and asked not to refer to the work of your FINS.
                        Again goofed. laughing
                        look for what is the etymology of the word OTTOMAN, open Russophobe Fasmer and see that the OTTOMAN is Ottoman

                        Yes, the Ottoman is Ottoman and nothing else.
                        Again, I asked for evidence that some chieftains (in your opinion) founded this empire, and not references to slurred authors.
                        Again minus.
                        In general, like the previous fomenoid, you are a hollow man.
                        That's it, that's all. laughing
                      6. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 20 October 2015 18: 34 New
                        0
                        And now carefully re-read the written, thoughtfully.
                        In your opinion, it turns out that the "iron evidence base" of your FIN is - probably ?! laughing
                        It's five !!! laughing


                        the iron evidence base on FIN is mathematics, and "PROBABLY" it is - probably - it even understands fool .


                        Quote: Glot
                        And what is wrong with the Monomakh hat? Not happy that she is well preserved?
                        So such a term - restoration heard? Or did your FINA not tell you about this?
                        And, doesn’t it bother you that in Europe the kings were crowned with crowns, and with us - with a golden hat?
                        And what, it was necessary as in Europe or what? laughing
                        Google about Byzantine ties. It will become clear where the Golden Hat came from.
                        Next, say:


                        Doesn't fur get out of fur with time? 1000 years, isn’t it too much for a hat, what the hell is restoration?

                        The whole hat is embroidered with PEARL, but the pearls begin to degrade after 50 years, and for 500 years there are no pearls

                        Pearl life
                        The disadvantage of pearls is not only its softness (ability to quickly scratch and wear), but also the aging property. The life of the pearl is 50 years without deterioration, and 200 ... 500 years with gradual degradation, after which the pearl dims and then crumbles into powder.
                        Non-optimal humidity and storage temperature, sunlight, contact with chemicals contribute to accelerated degradation.


                        http://www.kamni-minerali.lact.ru/katalog-kamney/zhemchug
                    2. The comment was deleted.
              2. Spnsr
                Spnsr 20 October 2015 10: 43 New
                -1
                Quote: Glot
                We’ll check you for lice.

                bro, you're rude!
                but, in the continuation of the lesson of history, you will not deny that the Bible describes events? or do you think this is fiction thin?
                and this, at a minimum, all the peoples inhabiting the planet are of the same age, but their names could change, for example, Ukraine, where glorious Slavs suddenly became Ukrainians! ...
                and this is a fact described in the bible!
                another fact is that Fomenko and Nosovsky refer to documented sources, but for some reason you and your “historians” suddenly do not want to see, and moreover, the author of this article quotes from these sources, which in no way contributes to your understanding of history from another point view!
                another fact, this is chemistry to help you, and the same story, this discovery when they started using iron (you will find it yourself)
                and the most basic fact !!! why do you believe the statement that the pyramids were built several thousand years ago, some kind of advanced civilization, but do not believe in the fact that the age of all peoples on this planet is the same?
                and where did the Polovtsy, Khazars, Scythians go? just evaporated? or is it just that they were called differently ???
                and why don’t you admit that there was only one people living on earth who, in the light of various reasons, began to call themselves differently? Ukraine to help you!
                no one says that Russians are the most ancient people! it is only about the fact that almost every century, new nations appear on the planet! but they didn’t come from anywhere, but simply helped them, or their mentality was ripe for separating from the original people ...
                and don’t be rude, otherwise you get the impression that you are a liberal and work out pin.dos. grants, they behave like that only and always if they can’t convince the opponent!
              3. Glot
                Glot 20 October 2015 11: 42 New
                0
                bro, you're rude!


                Well, since you switched to you, I will answer in the same spirit.
                Firstly, I’m not your brother. It’s you among your ignoramus-fomenoidov fraternity.
                Secondly, I asked for evidence of what you said above. I won’t repeat your words, it’s all a little higher and, as expected, you merged into the discussion without giving any evidence. However, I am not surprised. You fomenkoids and the like always always merge just like that, either not noticing direct questions, or getting into discussions about anything.
                In general, you did not pass the test. Who you are, I already wrote above. Sorry, but it goes.
                And do not write me in the liberalists and others.
                I see in the Battle of Kulikovo the beginning of the deliverance of Russia from the Iga, I see the Feat of the Russian People, I see the Heroes of Russia and the beginning of the unity and formation of a powerful State.
                You are claiming that this was not the opposite, you want to deprive my People and my Country of this Glory and this History.
                So answer, which of the two of us is liberal scum ?!
                The answer in my opinion is obvious!
                Because of illiteracy and the stupidity of your kind, they also want to take away History from us, rewriting it now and trying to replace what was in real life and frank tales.
                Think about it too, if it’s not too late, if the thinker has not atrophied.
                And yet, learn to answer the questions posed and not bustle and jump to other planes. And then they will not be respected at all.
                To this I close the discussion for myself. Since there is nothing to discuss with anyone and nothing.
                All.
              4. The comment was deleted.
              5. Spnsr
                Spnsr 21 October 2015 12: 58 New
                0
                Quote: Glot
                learn to answer the questions and not bustle and jump to other planes.


                nutak, it looks more like you're driving your people. into virtual slavery of the Mongol yoke ...
                facts, why will I be repeating presenting to you the same documents that shake your forefather !?
                you ask me for what we both read, only to the extent of your difficulty of perceiving through the prism of the interpretation of “history” as a yoke, you assert me that you are a descendant of the slave of the Mongoloid, I tell you that everything on planet earth, including West lived in a single system, but suddenly one wanted to become Germans, the other Poles, someone helped, someone transformed himself! and nothing more.
                you will not deny that such a transformation is happening now with Ukraine, or do you want to say that Ukraine appeared on its own, two thousand years after the “Christmas” of Christ, and at the place where the Scythians, Polovtsians, then Slavs, Varangians lived , and a lot of other people?
                although objectively, not one has gone anywhere, there are many examples of how, for one reason or another, one nation, through a generation, becomes different, and sometimes earlier, only in view of this sufficient, I can argue that the entire course of "history" in which you earnestly urge me to believe, even intrusively, has no foundation
                my story is when many Russians become Uzbeks, Turkmens, Georgians, but many who, and Germans, British, Americans, and anyone else, and vice versa, I don’t remember where I read it, but others have another craving confirmed by statements like, just becoming Russians can conquer the world ...

                yes, on the account of the Kulikovo battle, in my understanding, one heir to the throne decided to take him from another heir to the throne, or bring him into submission, and this happened on the border of the hordes, and where I take away the glory from my ancestors, given that the glory of my ancestors, and not some lapotniks, as my grandmother called everyone who did not belong to the Cossacks, and in this story these were the true taras of the king, his army, and not the Tatars who were appointed to be them only because that they were initially not subordinate to the Romanovs, and for the Romanovs, there were all those who were not part of Muscovy then, then, when they entered or subordinated to the Romanovs, they began to acquire nationalities !!! or rather names, but also large communities were also divided into small nationalities, which are easier to manage !!!
                what do you know about the story, only that they showed you lashes and said that, like, type ramses used them ?! and did you believe?
                and the fact that happened with the Soviet Union with the former and further formed republics, and in particular with Ukraine, doesn’t affect your perception of history at all

                you want an anegdot?
                several centuries later, excavations are underway, young students listen to a professor who gives a description of the objects found, takes out the traffic police rod, and this, a working tool, a menthosaur from the Gai tribe, he made his bread with this rod!
                and also, at my place there is a coin with an image of an elephant, as it was called there in the ice age, too, with these coins mammoths went to the boutiques
              6. Glot
                Glot 21 October 2015 20: 14 New
                0
                there are many examples of how, for one reason or another, one nation, through a generation, becomes different, and sometimes earlier, only in view of this sufficient, I can argue that the entire course of "history" in which you earnestly urge me to believe, even obsessively, has no basis


                Oh, how is that? A nation or its individual representatives?
                Examples ... Well, bring a couple of times when the nation changed through generation. laughing

                and not the Tatars who were appointed to be them only because they initially did not obey the Romanovs, and for the Romanovs, the Tatara were all those who did not enter Muscovy then, then later, upon entering or subordinating to the Romanovs, they began to acquire nationalities !!! or rather names, but also large communities were also divided into small nationalities, which are easier to manage !!!


                What does the Romanovs and Kulikovo Field have to do with it? laughing
                You’ve already started talking.

                and the fact that happened with the Soviet Union with the former and further formed republics, and in particular with Ukraine, doesn’t affect your perception of history at all


                And how should it affect but my perception of history?
                And that so many words about Ukraine then? laughing

                and also, at my place there is a coin with an image of an elephant, as it was called there in the ice age, too, with these coins mammoths went to the boutiques


                Yes, well, show it. And why does it follow that the allegedly lying coin is related to the ice age?
                By the way, do you know that the image of an elephant on coins is very, very common? Or for you elephant = mammoth?
                In general, I again did not hear anything. NEVER interesting or competent. Alas.
                In principle, I did not want to answer but, oh well, let it be.
                PS Will you show a coin?
              7. Spnsr
                Spnsr 21 October 2015 21: 48 New
                0
                Quote: Glot

                Oh, how is that? A nation or its individual representatives?

                Quote: Glot
                And that so many words about Ukraine then? laughing

                Ukraine is just the most elementary example of how and what is changing, more examples, republics of the USSR!
                Quote: Glot
                What does the Romanovs and Kulikovo Field have to do with it? laughing

                Romanovs are a consequence of the change of dynasty! after the death of the last Rurik
                Quote: Glot
                In general, I again did not hear anything. NEVER interesting or competent. Alas.

                we read the same thing, but only you didn’t see anything except the yoke, this is your problem. you try to be ironic at the moment when you see my point, but you can’t refuse what you really insisted on!
                the fact is that here the whole history is literally outlined from the moment the writing began, namely the beginning, and not the fakes that you are trying to present claiming that they were like ancient peoples of the ancient ...
                that the story is outlined in general, call me, read the manuscripts correctly, and you will see everything for yourself, only manuscripts and not fakes and the yellow press.
              8. Glot
                Glot 21 October 2015 21: 59 New
                0
                Ukraine is just the most elementary example of how and what is changing, more examples, republics of the USSR!


                What is ALL? Ukrainians became Hungarians, or Uzbeks - Belarusians?
                All these nations were part of the same Country - the USSR, after its collapse they organized into their own States, but they did not change as nations.
                So this is not an example, but nonsense.

                Romanovs are a consequence of the change of dynasty! after the death of the last Rurik


                So what ? I asked how they sideways to Kulikov field.
                Again no answer.

                the fact is that here the whole history is literally outlined from the moment the writing began, namely the beginning, and not the fakes that you are trying to present claiming that they were like ancient peoples of the ancient ...


                HERE "- WHERE EXACTLY ? On the site ? In your posts? WHERE ???
                The peoples were different. They disappeared, degenerated, others degenerated into something new, someone changed geographical points, etc.
                You don’t say ANYTHING. Again you swim in the void of slurred words.
                And, I never showed a coin, of the pre-Ice Age.
                That's right, said "A" and ... ti-shi-na-ah ...
                Why then get into topics that are difficult for you?
              9. Spnsr
                Spnsr 22 October 2015 09: 39 New
                -1
                I certainly apologize, but your repetition is very much like
                Quote: Glot
                You don’t say ANYTHING SPECIFIC
                what flies and can be taught repetition!
                Yesterday, Satanovsky was visiting with a “Khazar historian”, I grit, promised Yevgeny Yanych to find Itil, we searched, didn’t find anything, but found the Cossack, they pulled Itil apart by pieces, we didn’t find the Khazars but I know for sure that they were Jews! laughing patam shta, true writings (yellow presa and fakes) where it is written that they are Jews! if there is a scribble, but no finds, then a scribble is fake! and if there are finds that belong to the Cossacks, then do not assume that it is not theirs! and so the whole “story” is written, first fakes were written, then crafts were found under the fakes ...
                and you insist on that interpretation of history, which contradicts itself, continue the same interpretation that is beneficial to the West!
              10. Glot
                Glot 22 October 2015 10: 10 New
                +1
                what flies and can be taught repetition!


                To be honest, I have great difficulty understanding your thoughts. You can’t spell it out correctly, you can’t correctly write them, write clearly, precisely, clearly what you wanted to convey. What kind of understanding of history can there be in general if a person hardly connects two words ?! Read more, not even historical, classical Russian literature. That would explain at least I could understand. That's horrible ...
                Moreover, mind you, again did not answer a single question.
                Okay, that’s good.
              11. Spnsr
                Spnsr 22 October 2015 12: 44 New
                0
                Quote: Glot
                what flies

                this is a parrot.
                who lacks logic and the ability to see the problem of the discrepancy between the writings of some "historians" and the writings of other "historians", and to see the problem of fakes and found artifacts!
                but which objective history teaches nothing
              12. Glot
                Glot 22 October 2015 13: 56 New
                -1
                this is a parrot.


                Ahh, that's the thing. Now I understand.
                Well, self-criticism is already good. It’s good when a person understands who he really is. Maybe what conclusions will be made ...
              13. Spnsr
                Spnsr 22 October 2015 22: 00 New
                0
                Quote: Glot
                Ahh, that's the thing. Now I understand.

                ok, you don’t have to bathe!
                and about history, the more I have to read and listen to “historians”, see the present, try to analyze the present, and the near and visible past, the more I come to the conclusion that this “history” is a fake! too much does not fit ...
                I didn’t offer you stories, but simply expressed my opinion, which is affirmed in my mind, from listening (there are a lot of people like you, (I didn’t even speak out before) of all kinds of channels like histories, and “historians” like yesterday’s guest at Satanovsky’s on Vesti fm ) "History" that you impose.
                still on the same topic from the guest of Satanovsky, “we found a lot from the Vikings, even more than in their homeland”, this is about the territory through which the Don flows!
                you know, it would tell me that their homeland is here and then they came to Scandinavia! and they were called Vikings later in order to tear them away from their homeland, and this would make it possible to say that it was not Cossacks at all, but Cossacks appeared later!
                and also, remember, to whom in the movies do the Vikings refer in battle? “Our Father who is in heaven! Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven ”
                and you know that the most interesting thing is that the story in which I live is almost no different from the one you are trying to impose, it is only slightly compressed, and its direction is somewhat different! but this does not at all contradict reality!
              14. Glot
                Glot 22 October 2015 22: 59 New
                0
                and the past I see


                Uh ... do you see the past? Like, in dreams or falling into a trance? laughing

                still on the same topic from the guest of Satanovsky, “we found a lot from the Vikings, even more than in their homeland”, this is about the territory through which the Don flows!


                Find and read about the Vikings from Vasiliev, Nikitin ... there seems to be someone else, and not one. I just did not delve into this topic. Check out other studies, including Western ones.
                What are you all poking at Satanovsky? Also look at RenTV, there they will tell you that the Viking center was in Ryazan. laughing

                Remember, who do the Vikings in battle use in movies?


                Now, it’s clear now. You study the history of films.
                Well, what else can I say? Yes, it’s simple, accessible, watchable. Especially Hollywood. laughing

                Generally:
                - The court is clear. To shoot !!! laughing

                READ BOOKS! CORRECT! And DON'T STAGE IN THE BOX !!!
                Here is ******* ...
              15. Spnsr
                Spnsr 22 October 2015 23: 45 New
                0
                Quote: Glot
                Uh ... do you see the past? Like, in dreams or falling into a trance? laughing

                you are just like a mischievous child! or a little one, although, most likely, it’s still a bit more mature than it seems to me! laughing there have been so many events in my conscious life, and this is already the past, and this gives me a reason to say that I’ve seen from the side, somewhere to attend, and somewhere to participate, I think that if you are not younger than 25 then you too ...
                about Satanovsky, although I do not share some of his objections, he very interestingly talks about the east! hammer on the internet!
                and his guest was just one of those historians whom you list ...
                Quote: Glot
                me, including Western.

                you know, I already wrote above, I repeat, in the West they are conducting research on the effects of shampoo on the brain! and everything else is fakes, about which I’m telling you already like 20 comments laughing you do not give these fake guns as an example! or even better, erase everything that you read from the fakecomers and in the yellow press, and begin to study history from the environment! laughing
                by the way!
                whom in your "history" were the first Slavs "worshiping"?
                and go to church, look at the icons of the saints, who will you see?
        3. The comment was deleted.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 52 New
    0
    104 pyramids? And the temples? Millions of cubic meters of stone? And for some reason there are no images of the Horde? And after all the weapon of their saber? And where are they on the walls of temples, in burials? On the walls are nude people and beast-headed gods. But what about Allah?
    1. Glot
      Glot 21 October 2015 20: 20 New
      +1
      104 pyramids? And the temples? Millions of cubic meters of stone? And for some reason there are no images of the Horde? And after all the weapon of their saber? And where are they on the walls of temples, in burials? On the walls are nude people and beast-headed gods. But what about Allah?


      No, his thought is broader and deeper.
      He speaks of one people. And according to his logic, it turns out that since everyone went from the pair Adam / Eve, then all the people of the Earth are one people.
      So it will not be surprising if this comrade tomorrow declares that the Zulu prince Alexander beat the Livonians on Lake Peipsi, in Stalingrad the "Pavlov's house" was defended by ... Australian commandos. laughing If everything is reduced to absurdity, then to the end, to the point! laughing
  • erg
    erg 18 October 2015 21: 21 New
    0
    I offer history buffs a small test for the logic and knowledge of historical material. We will not retire in the old days, take closer and no less glorious. By the way, on military subjects. In 1811, Prince Bagrationovsk gave orders to the army that officers give honor by putting their left hand to the hat, and with a shako, the right hand. Explain why such a difference. More from the same era. Two infantry platoons made up the company, and two platoons made up the division. What's the difference between. company and division, if we are talking about the same musketeer regiment. Connoisseurs of history, answer. Let me tell you - the search for historical material does not take much time, you won’t have to run into archives, and turn on the logic.
    1. Severomor
      Severomor 18 October 2015 21: 32 New
      -1
      What's the difference between. company and division, if we are talking about the same musketeer regiment

      Interestingly, Mt. Grenadier was called - the division, you have to climb into the network))))
      1. erg
        erg 19 October 2015 22: 11 New
        +1
        Apparently, no one except you was interested. Well, stupidly rewriting other people's thoughts is always easier, but to conduct your own, albeit a little research, you need to think here. I’m taking off my test offer. Well, who cares - the return of honor by putting a hand to a criminal procedure was introduced instead of removing it, as required by the charter of 1796 (the following charter was adopted in 1811). This was also said in the order of Bagration. The hat needed to be removed with the left hand, but it was inconvenient to remove the shak with the left hand, they were removed with the right and shifted to the fold of the left hand. Two platoons made up the division when the regiment was lining up. Since the first company was grenadier and consisted of a platoon of grenadiers and a platoon of fusiliers, when building a grenadier platoon became the first, a second company, a third one, and so on, were attached to it at the end, a grenadier platoon became. The platoon score was taken from the grenadier platoon, but the order of the platoons was disrupted. They united in pairs, but were from different companies. Therefore, in order not to get confused, two platoons during the construction of the regiment were called a division, not a company. Charter of 1811.




        у
        1. Severomor
          Severomor 19 October 2015 22: 44 New
          0
          CPSB, and I climbed into the structure of the Suzdal Musketeer Regiment (Colonel Suvorov A.V.), there are 10 musketeer companies and 2 grenadiers, I thought the grenadier (artillery in my hands) and were called divisions.
          But this is 1763-1768gg.
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 19 October 2015 09: 22 New
    0
    Quote: SokolfromRussia
    Painting Kivshenko 19-century. The miniature refers to the ancient Russian artistic tradition, where, until the 16 century, everyone painted the same way.

    Fomenkovites do not assume about such "nuances" ...
  • alebor
    alebor 19 October 2015 12: 38 New
    +1
    Still, it’s amazing what kind of monuments there are in Moscow, often to people unknown to anyone (like some kind of Abay, whom I am sure that 99,9% of Moscow residents not only have not read and will not read, but have never heard of it) .
    But Ivan the third, the great ruler of Russia, in fact the creator of a single, independent Russian state - no! It seems to me that this is the most undeservedly ignored attention, a great statesman, more than anyone else worthy of the fact that a monument in his honor was erected in the very center of Moscow, next to the Kremlin, which, by the way, was built during it).
    In my opinion, the most successful place would be Borovitsky Hill, on which the city authorities for some reason decided to erect a monument to Prince Vladimir, who had no direct relation either to Moscow or to the Kremlin. No, I have nothing against Vladimir, but for obvious reasons, he was never there and it would be logical for him, as the baptist of Russia, to erect a monument in the background of some Moscow monastery or church or, as in Kiev, on picturesque riverbank. Ivan, the third who lived in Moscow and built the Kremlin, would have looked much more harmonious against his background.
  • Aliskan
    Aliskan 20 October 2015 01: 03 New
    -1
    Very interesting and informative article. I love such military historical stories.

    As for the sectarians of proud Tartar conspiracy theorists, I will tell you something. At one aircraft factory, I happened to work with such a character. We are both engineers. It was necessary to maintain, repair, establish various technological installations. So this imbecile was a complete zero: it is not able to distinguish a resistor from a diode, it could not detect an elementary fault, it could not use a tester, damn it. Stupidly useless ballast for me. But at the same time, screaming about Tartary, Great Deception, Aryan gods and so on at every corner with foam at the mouth. It was amusing to observe how, after the appearance of each new vyser of these sectarians on the Internet, the next day he ran into the department and organized a rally. He believed ABSOLUTELY everything that appeared on the Internet on this subject. Levashev, KOB, Slavic Aryan Vedas - this is just the guiding light for him in the nights of total Judaism. He blamed science or what he considered such, but did not read a single historical book by a serious author. And all this says a lot. About his thinking, education, culture. More precisely, the lack of any culture. As a specialist, he is nobody. Indeed, with such primitive thinking it is impossible to perceive any concepts, whether related to engineering work or to history. Being a worthless creature in his professional field, he undertook to judge the professional fields of other people: historians, archaeologists, ethnologists - who devoted their whole lives to this. He absolutely lacked respect for other people's work. When meeting with technical problems, due to his inability to solve them, he always tried to turn the arrows, push them away: it’s the mechanics who knocked it down, the electricians have to do it, this is the care of the contractors, etc. In general, for me, this type has become a collective image of all these true-minded sectarians. Indeed, in it all their features were manifested most convexly. And their common name: ignorance, resulting from congenital laziness and dullness. Do not argue with such.

    For those who have not completely degraded and have doubts, I would like to note an interesting book by a Mongolian historian about Genghis Khan: Khara-Davan "Genghis Khan the Great Conqueror". The books of L.N. Gumilev are extremely informative, because they give a weighted estimate of the number of Mongolian armies, based on a detailed analysis of the climatic, demographic and economic situation of the countries under consideration. As far as I remember, this figure for Batu's army is several tens of thousands, but not a million. Indeed, with a nomadic type of economy, the Great Steppe will not be able to feed so many people.

    Most nomads are Indo-Europeans or Türks. Actually the Mongols were few. Of course, this drop in the sea could not leave any genetic trace.

    Among the Mongols there is a legend about Genghis Khan "The Secret Tradition", which is known in many oral versions - search the Internet.

    Even historical sectarians can look into their wallet and see for themselves the legacy of Genghis Khan: after all, paper money was invented by the Mongols.

    And in general, what does all this nonsense about Tartaria, reptilians and so on look like? Of course, to the "Teaching of the Great Ukrov". The level of thinking and ways of presenting the material are of the same type. So I call on the Tartarites - look at the jumping rogules and say: "Are you not like that in your stupidity?"
    1. War and Peace
      War and Peace 20 October 2015 15: 11 New
      0
      Quote: Aliskan
      Very interesting and informative article. I love such military historical stories.


      Yes, now such stories on the Internet for a ruble per kilogram of this paper are not too expensive?

      Quote: Aliskan
      As for the sectarians of proud Tartar conspiracy theorists, I will tell you something. At one aircraft factory, I happened to work with such a character. We are both engineers. It was necessary to maintain, repair, establish various technological installations. So this imbecile was a complete zero: it is not able to distinguish a resistor from a diode, detect a basic fault by a tester


      how could you and your partner be unlucky ay-ay-ay, and yet all the vile HX fogged the mind of a person, now just tear it and throw it away. It's just better to overeat than to sleep ...


      Quote: Aliskan
      Indeed, with such primitive thinking it is impossible to perceive any concepts, whether related to engineering work or to history. Being a worthless creature in his professional field, he undertook to judge the professional fields of other people: historians, archaeologists, ethnologists - who devoted their whole lives to this


      the acquaintance is very deep in your soul, since it is still sausage ...

      Quote: Aliskan
      Extremely informative books by L.N. Gumilyov,


      “Not a single real historian takes Gumilyov's theory seriously,” they say about Gumilyov themselves. In general, as he began to read Gumilyov, that "Russia and the great steppe" was there at first about the Khazars, how they lived poorly for 200-300 years, at first they lived in the VOLGA DELTA, they were born and so-so I could not imagine, it is NOT possible to live in the VOLGA DELTA , Gumilyov is an example of an armchair scientist ...



      Quote: Aliskan
      As far as I remember, this figure for the Batu army is several tens of thousands, but not a million. Indeed, with a nomadic type of farming, the Great Steppe will not be able to feed so many people


      Well, yes, your Haradavan was modest, unlike all other "serious" historians, for example
      -Ivanin 600tys
      -Olenin A.N., Berezin I., Soloviev S.M., Golitsyn N., Ustryalov N.G., Ilovaysky D.I., Troitsky D.I. determined the strength of the Mongolian army in the range from 300 thousand to half a million people
      - F. Shtral believed that the number of Mongols at the beginning of the Western campaign was 300 thousand people, and even when taking Kiev, F. Stral and O. Wolf, based on Russian chronicles, claimed that the number of Mongol troops was 600 thousand people, and before Batu had 500 thousand troops invading Central Europe. J. Hammer-Purgstahl believed that at the beginning of the campaign the capital of the Volga Bulgaria was besieged by 300 thousand people, but already before the invasion of Poland and Hungary, the army reached 500 thousand. T. Shimann estimates the strength of the Mongol army in February 1237 in the region of 300-500 thousand people.
      and so on, and Haradavan and 150 thousand. but how to conquer Russia with such an army, because South and North Russia could set 100 thousand according to official-underestimated data. warriors, not counting those who remained in the cities, with a ratio of 10/1 attack and defense it was possible to defend very successfully. Fragmentation? oh well, they usually rally in front of a common enemy, and Batu and his 150 thousand. go to the most powerful state of the Middle Ages is not a hand, usually it doesn’t happen ...
      1. War and Peace
        War and Peace 20 October 2015 15: 12 New
        -1
        Quote: Aliskan
        Most nomads are Indo-Europeans or Türks. Actually the Mongols were few. Of course, this drop in the sea could not leave any genetic trace.


        there are some contradictions Solovyov believed that Russia could set 100 thousand. army, but usually 100 thousand is THREE POPULATIONS OF THE COUNTRY men capable of holding weapons, it turns out that in Russia there were, well, say 400 thousand people, but

        According to demographics, in the Middle Ages the population density in Russia was 4-5 people per 1 sq. Km. km Consequently, the largest, with an area of ​​about 225 thousand square meters. km, and the most powerful of the Russian principalities at the beginning of the 0,9th century — Vladimir-Suzdal — had a population of 1,2–6 million people. It is estimated that in Russia the urban population was 1,2%. Based on the data of M. N. Tikhomirov, we obtain the population of the principality in the middle of the XIII century. about XNUMX million

        and this is only the Principality of Vladimir, and all are ostrovals? Well, probably 5 million in Russia was? It means that men who were able to resist men could be set not 100 thousand. and 1.5mil. man, so these disinterested 120 thousand. according to Haradavan could not be defeated by the PREVALING numbers of warriors? Probably they could, so your Haradavan miscalculated ...
        As for the influence of the Mongols and other Asians on the genome of a white person. 500K could well leave a noticeable mark of 5mil. people, because the white breed is very susceptible to pollution, i.e. if there is a crossing of white and non-white, then there will be no white, but only shades of gray are already optical physics ...


        Quote: Aliskan
        Even historical sectarians can look into their wallet and see for themselves the legacy of Genghis Khan: after all, paper money was invented by the Mongols.


        there was no cool writing, but paper money was, how can this be?

        Quote: Aliskan
        And in general, what does all this nonsense about Tartaria, reptilians and so on look like? Of course, to the "Teaching of the Great Ukrov". The level of thinking and ways of presenting the material are of the same type. So I call on the Tartarites - look at the jumping rogules and say: "Are you not like that in your stupidity?"


        all your arguments are not worth a dime, everything is refuted, upon closer examination, your "historians" of history do not really know, therefore they interpret the numbers this way and that. And your traditional history is synonymous with a great LIE ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Glot
      Glot 20 October 2015 16: 23 New
      -2
      As for the sectarians of proud Tartar conspiracy theorists, I will tell you something. ..........


      That's right, you say!
      But, they won't hear you. They do not hear anyone, everything is jumping and jumping "with tambourines around the campfires." Trying to show something to someone but, cause only laughter and regret.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 20 October 2015 22: 24 New
        0
        Timur Shaov writes: We are considered by historians to be fools,
        Archaeologists are always ready to cheat.
        Champollion is his own Rosetta stone
        Probably bought on the market in Biryulyovo.

        History is not a hell for twenty ruble,
        Stories need a revaluation.
        So thought Thucydides and Tacitus - they
        Historians Nosovsky and Fomenko.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2015 16: 57 New
        0
        The main word in this verbal diarrhea is not a lie, but "great." And in front of a great lie some uneducated pygmies - it's funny. Here - even the Fomenkoids admit. Power is on our side! Otherwise, where would the word "great" come from?
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • Olezhek
    Olezhek 20 October 2015 15: 10 New
    +1
    Good, sensible article.
    The main thing - a decisive victory was achieved without a decisive battle.
    This is also possible.
    The battle, by the way, could have been won - the result is essentially the same
    Or lose, which is fraught.
    Ivan III the historical fork was beautiful.