Almaz-Antey published the results of field experiments that determine the cause and those responsible for the crash of MH-17. The West has tensed ...

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Russian concern "Almaz-Antey" (OJSC Concern Air Defense "Almaz - Antey"), ahead of the so-called international investigative team (in common - “Dutch experts”), presented a report on the results of a full-scale experiment, which allows to draw final conclusions about what was the main cause of the crash of a Boeing-777 Malaysian airline. The disaster, as is known, took place on July 17 2014, near the village of Hrabovo (Donetsk region). To investigate the causes of the catastrophe, a group of international experts was formed, where, for some reason, they decided not to include Russian specialists, although in Ukraine and in the West (simultaneously with the fall of Boeing) they called Russia “the culprit of the tragedy”.

The Almaz-Antey Concern presented a detailed report on the results of the experiment, which (report), by definition, must be fully presented so that the reader can get acquainted with the data of professional Russian designers. The experiment itself looks more than impressive, and its results in this regard can be called not just an expert opinion, but an embodiment of objectivity and professional approach to business.

So, the text of the statement from the official representative of "Almaz-Antey":

The purpose of the field experiment was to confirm or refute the results of the Almaz-Antey report presented at the June 2 press conference. To test their own theoretical conclusions, a series of tests was carried out.

The first of them was held in late July. In the form of the fuselage were put up iron shields and special traps, catching striking elements, as well as metal shields, imitating the left engine. The missile warhead was undermined at an angle, as if the missile was heading for an airplane from the Zaroshchenskoye area. The fragment field obtained in the course of the experiment was then programmatically superimposed on the Boeing-777 model. As a result, damage similar to those found on the Malaysian Boeing was recorded. The calculations of "Almaz-Antey" were confirmed.

The second phase of the test was 7 October.

It was already a full-scale natural experiment. The goal was to check the version announced in the preliminary report of the international commission that the rocket was launched from the Snezhnoye area. For this, the Il-86 retired aircraft was purchased, which is most suitable for aerodynamic, technical, physical, and a variety of other parameters, as similar in design to the Boeing-777 fuselage.

The supercomputer processed more than 14 of millions of possible variants, the parameters of compensation of the dynamic and static position of objects - the rocket and the aircraft were determined. The 9М38М1 missile was undermined with a 9H314M warhead. As a result of the experiment, a preliminary version of the international commission that the launch was carried out from the Snezhniy area was disproved, since the nature of the damage to the aircraft at such angles of missile approach was quite different from what we see on the Boeing’s fuselage in reality.

Recall that the main impact of the striking elements was on the left side of the Malaysian Boeing - the cockpit, the left wing, the left engine and the left tail section. During the experiment conducted on the basis of data from an international commission, IL-86 did not receive damage to the left engine at all. The main concentration of damaging elements - the so-called "scalpel" - passed through the cabin, which eliminates the preservation of its right part intact. Thus, we have to admit that the rocket could not be sent to the Boeing from the village of Snezhnoye. This, in turn, completely refutes the version of the international commission to investigate the disaster.

According to the preliminary report of the international commission, the Malaysian aircraft was shot down by the 9М38М1 rocket, which includes striking elements - "I-beams". In the course of the field experiment, Almaz-Antey used the 86М9М38 with “I-beams” modification to undermine the Il-1 aircraft, since an international commission insists on this version. A characteristic feature of the undermining of the warhead of the 9М38М1 rocket is the formation of two fronts of striking elements. In the first, lighter fragments, and in the second - a heavy fraction of “I-beams” with maximum kinetic energy. Damage remaining on the body as a result of hitting the "I-beam" has a shape that can be called a butterfly. It is important to note that the earlier version of the 9М38 rocket does not incorporate "I-beams", its damaging elements leave damages in the form of parallelepipeds. In Soviet times, 9М38 missiles were supplied to Ukraine. Accurate data on the number of such ammunition from the Ukrainian army to date have not been preserved. It is important to emphasize that the 9М38 missiles in service with Russia are not worth it - since 1986, such missiles have not been delivered to the army, the last one expired in 2011.

During the experiment, on the body of the aircraft after the rocket exploded, a lot of butterfly-shaped inlets were found, these are traces of the "I-beams". However, it is known that no butterfly-shaped holes were found on the body of the downed Malaysian Boeing, damage in the shape of a “parallelepiped” prevailed, which can inflict damage to missiles of the previous generation 9М38.


Almaz-Antey published the results of field experiments that determine the cause and those responsible for the crash of MH-17. The West has tensed ...


Thus, the field experiment not only refutes the Dutch version that the rocket was launched from Snezhniy, but also the thesis that the shot was fired using 9М38М1 munition.




A subtle hint from Almaz-Antey specialists that it would be nice for “Dutch specialists” to repeat the geometry school course before making statements about the direction of hitting the plane:



In preparation for the full-scale experiment, the Concern was placed in a very tight time frame. It was necessary to solve a whole range of problems - from the search for a decommissioned aircraft to logistics issues, it was necessary to choose a site for the experiment. Opportunities to purchase Boeing-777, taking into account the objective factors - logistics and time constraints - just did not exist. However, the fuselage of the Il-86 aircraft is as a whole, as well as aerodynamic, technical, physical, and a number of other parameters affecting the purity of the experiment, similar in design and basic parameters to the Boeing-777 fuselage. Taking into account all these features, after consulting with specialists, the Concern management decided to purchase an Il-86 aircraft for the experiment.

The 9H314М warhead for the first phase of the field experiment and the 9М38М1 rocket assembly for its second phase - a full-scale field experiment - were obtained by the Concern from the presence of the Russian Ministry of Defense. Almaz-Antey specialists prepared the rocket for the experiment in such a way that fully all the characteristics of the product, including the status of the squibs and other parameters, fully comply with the 40 second rocket flight. The event was attended by experts and experts of the Concern, including the Dolgoprudny Research and Production Enterprise, as well as the VV Bakhirev State Research Institute of Mechanical Engineering and the Central Research Institute of Air Forces of the Russian Defense Ministry.


A video that puts dots on “i” on the question of what hit the Malaysian airliner and where it was hit from.



The results of a full-scale experiment showed that a blow was struck from the area of ​​the settlement of Zaroshchenskoye, where the active “Buk” air defense system of Ukraine was located.

The professionalism with which representatives of the Russian manufacturer of military equipment approached and published data on the direction of the strike on the airliner and the establishment of real ammunition that led 17 last July to the death of 298 people, made even the clearly Russophobian publications scratch their heads. Thus, a report was published on CNN, in which experts stated that the press conference of Almaz-Antey specialists and the data presented on it were a “powerful message to the West.”

Jill Doggerty (International Defense and Security Center staff) for CNN (translation RT):

The company that produces these rockets claims - as she has said repeatedly - that she conducted very thorough simulations — more precisely, two simulations — of how this catastrophe happened. And they believe that the fired rocket came not from the territory of the rebels, but from the territory under the control of Ukrainian government forces. At the same time, the Russians declare to us: “You, the West, ignore the information and intelligence information we have, which say that Ukrainians are to blame.” And this is a very powerful message, the essence of which is: "You do not listen to what we have told you."


It is quite understandable that the data professionally presented by the Russian defense concern, a priori, cause, so to speak, a blow to justice and objectivity on the mezzanine loot the Dutch turned into the investigation and, most importantly, the forces behind the Dutch commission. If the facts presented by Russia are based on openly submitted scientific data, including experimental ones, the “expert cell” in the Netherlands for more than a year of “work” did not bother to make an elementary display of the aircraft fragments. Although what sort of calculation is in question, when the fragments were sawed at the crash site by the grinder and literally pushed into containers, deforming what was already subjected to multiple deformations due to the artillery strikes of the Ukrainian security forces.

By the way, by the present minute the same international expert group also presented its report. The first thing that attracts attention is the coincidence of the results (with Almaz-Antey) about the nature of the used ammunition. The Dutch also declare the use of the 9М38 rocket against the airliner, which has not been used in Russia for a long time. However, the Dutch experts decided not to go to the logical end and announced that "they do not know where exactly the missile was fired at Boeing."

RIA News cites a fragment of a statement by the representative of the expert group Tjibi Joostra (Chairman of the Security Council of the Netherlands):
An additional forensic investigation will be required to determine the launch site. Such an investigation is beyond the competence of the Netherlands Security Council.


Well, if the whole year is not enough, go to the end already - find in yourself, Mr. Justra, the courage to refer to the data of Russian experts who did not spare either the strength or the means to establish the truth about the crash of the MH-17 flight. Or will you continue to make ridiculous attempts to block the true culprits of the tragedy? ..
219 comments
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  1. +35
    13 October 2015 15: 25
    Almaz-Antey Concern presented a detailed report on the results of the experiment. Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.
    1. +21
      13 October 2015 15: 33
      What a huge amount of work they did. Impressive. The West will probably merge by the spring.
      1. +65
        13 October 2015 15: 48
        The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it! It is a pity those countries that can’t even tell the truth about the deaths of their citizens due to the Yankes addiction. Miserable moral freaks! am
        1. +29
          13 October 2015 17: 25
          As Comrade Goblin said: Those who launched this Boeing are not guilty in an unsafe zone!
          1. +2
            14 October 2015 14: 44
            In general, I would have pulled D. Puchkova into European and American prime time on RT. His level of English is enough to absolutely authentically repeat all this for a Western audience in their language.
        2. +11
          13 October 2015 18: 02
          Quote: Major Yurik
          The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it!


          Yuri (can I call you that?), Here's something about this:
          1. +4
            13 October 2015 18: 53
            Dutch experts ... announced that they "do not know where exactly the missile was fired at the Boeing."


          2. +3
            13 October 2015 19: 08
            Quote: Lelek
            Quote: Major Yurik
            The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it!


            Yuri (can I call you that?), Here's something about this:


            Lion, of course you can, Petersburgers even need! wink
            And about all this bacchanalia, by God, after watching their euronews, sometimes I just want to go and wash my hands, purely reflex! hi
            1. +5
              13 October 2015 20: 47
              but I wanted to notice. that in Kz, long before all these experiments, everyone already understood everything

              Our BISAM agency (an analogue of the bleeding in the center of the Russian Federation) conducted a survey and 80% of the population of the republic considered that the Russian Federation or militias did not bring down this flight

              Just by the logic of Russia, it was not profitable. But to the west, provocation is just at hand
        3. +2
          13 October 2015 23: 02
          Quote: Major Yurik
          The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it! It is a pity those countries that can’t even tell the truth about the deaths of their citizens due to the Yankes addiction. Miserable moral freaks! am


          Not the fact that there was anyone alive at all. We are of course offended, but on the other hand do not care. Sooner or later, they will bring down something that chokes. This is a well-known path and everyone knows where it leads.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +3
        13 October 2015 16: 06
        The West will surely merge by the spring of pigment.

        He himself will merge and then he will merge, or vice versa!

        Video - feik most likely but pleased:
        1. +1
          13 October 2015 18: 08
          Quote: Baikonur
          Video - feik most likely but pleased:


          Maybe a fake, or maybe not: bully
      4. +7
        13 October 2015 18: 21
        Meanwhile: "The Dutch Security Council will not reopen its investigation into the causes of the Boeing's death in eastern Ukraine," said its official representative Sarah Fernoy, answering a question from a TASS correspondent.
        According to Fernoy, the work of the organization ended with the publication of a report on the shipwreck in Ukraine. "

        Further digging makes no sense, you can dig yourself.
      5. +4
        13 October 2015 21: 05
        Quote: subbtin.725
        What a huge amount of work they did. Impressive. The West will probably merge by the spring.

        I think our diplomats will hold this trump card for a while. I don’t think that this is a personal initiative of the Almaz-Antey leadership. So, here we are preparing a surprise for the adversary.
        1. +2
          13 October 2015 21: 42
          There is still a press conference after the presentation of the special report ..
          And the results of the work of the Diamond in questions of the right journalists can plunge Dutch experts into a puddle, such as:
          Do you agree with the conclusions of the Diamond? No? why: did you carry out the same investigative experiment? No? And without a comparable technical level, I'm sorry, your conclusions are pulled by bullshit ..

          What will give an additional useful effect
      6. The comment was deleted.
      7. 0
        14 October 2015 17: 07
        Impressive. The west by the time of the piglet is sure to merge.

        Porasya or slaughter by the fall, or as potatoes in the spring planted (on an electric chair) ..... laughing
    2. +2
      13 October 2015 15: 33
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.
      - They will not consider, after all, following their logic: how to believe the guilty - the stump is clear - Russia is "excused".

      However:
      Quote: article
      In an experiment conducted on the basis of international commission data, the IL-86 did not receive any damage to the left engine.
      - Something I did not understand, what engines? Only the bow stood there.

      Am I not catching up with something?
      1. +4
        13 October 2015 15: 41
        Quote: iConst
        Something I did not understand, what engines? Only the bow stood there.

        Am I not catching up with something?

        The metal shield on the left plays the role of an engine.
        1. 0
          13 October 2015 15: 52
          Quote: SoboL
          The metal shield on the left plays the role of an engine.
          - Right! I have not noticed.

          I watched the shortened video.
      2. +5
        13 October 2015 15: 52
        - Something I did not understand, what engines? Only the bow stood there.

        Am I not catching up with something?

        Only the nose was blown up, and the role of the engines and the rest of the fuselage was played by the placed trap shields.
    3. +25
      13 October 2015 15: 35
      In Langley, everything was calculated correctly! It was not for nothing that the GDP called the US intelligence very powerful, but the only thing the CIA experts made a mistake was the Ukrainians’ handshake! Only we Russians know about this! Why historically we are called older brothers! laughing
      1. +5
        13 October 2015 15: 46
        I adhere to the version that "Putin personally knocked down" .. More evidence-based system of inferences ... Let's all agree and calm down ... Here's the proof for a long time there .. bully
        1. +6
          13 October 2015 17: 10
          Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
          Here is the evidence for a long time already ..



          What was that ???

          If Putin was guarded like that - what, at least a regiment, or what ???

          PS DAM flew to us by helicopter - without any fighters ... I flew a bit (though, two helicopters accompanied him) - and screwed it ... It seems that the loss is small if there are such people, but without security ...
          1. +10
            13 October 2015 18: 25
            Quote: veksha50
            What was that ??? If Putin was so guarded - what, at least a regiment, or what ???

            We are looking at the date (May 3) !. This is preparation for the air parade on May 9))) !!!!
            1. +3
              13 October 2015 20: 58
              Quote: Ramzaj99
              We are looking at the date (May 3) !. This is preparation for the air parade on May 9))) !!!!



              I fell for screams in the video ... Putin, Putin ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. +5
          13 October 2015 20: 03
          And now I propose to see the air parade in the Crimea and compare ...
          ... in Russia everyone knows that Putin flies without an airplane, only a black cloak behind him is developing across the sky!
        3. +1
          13 October 2015 21: 02
          Mikhalych! Sober up ... laughing
      2. +7
        13 October 2015 15: 48
        Quote: Finches
        In Langley, everything was calculated correctly!

        To quote the “teachers” of these pros - “The British are known throughout the world for their lack of conscience in politics. They are experts in the art of hiding their crimes behind a facade of decency. They have done this for centuries, and it has become so part of their nature that they themselves no longer notice this feature. They act with such a well-behaved expression and such absolute seriousness that they convince even themselves that they are examples of political innocence. They do not admit to themselves their hypocrisy. Never one Englishman winks at another and does not say: "but we understand what we mean." They not only behave like a model of purity and integrity - they believe themselves. It is both funny and dangerous ”(Joseph Goebbels,“ Children with severed hands ”).
        Here, I’m afraid I smell more like a diagnosis, well, and hope that the dirt will stick, and after a year, the truth will be of no interest to anyone
      3. BMW
        +5
        13 October 2015 15: 49
        Quote: Finches
        ! Why are we historically called older brothers!

        Right now, the screech will rise in Hohland, the Dutch have confirmed which rocket they shot down, though the launch point has been washed out to indecent. All now, and the Dutch are not brothers.
        1. +4
          13 October 2015 18: 33
          Quote: bmw
          Right now, the screech will rise in Hohland, the Dutch have confirmed which rocket they shot down, though the launch point has been washed out to indecent. All now, and the Dutch are not brothers.


          France and Germany have already been called not friendly states, now Holland, and tomorrow the EU is a bitter enemy that envies the powerful and prosperous Krajina until gnashing of teeth and harms it by not giving money for this "prosperity". Something like this.
      4. +4
        13 October 2015 16: 42
        Quote: Finches
        In Langley, everything was calculated correctly! It was not for nothing that the GDP called the US intelligence very powerful, but the only thing the CIA experts made a mistake was the Ukrainians’ handshake! Only we Russians know about this! Why historically we are called older brothers!

        -----------------------
        A year ago, it was said about this that in squinting and handshaking, no one can be compared with Ukrainians ...
    4. +20
      13 October 2015 15: 42
      http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/042/rsjh157.png
    5. +5
      13 October 2015 15: 48
      Trumps went into action, first published an experiment from Almaz-antey, what will we finish ???
      1. +7
        13 October 2015 16: 03
        Quote: 44World
        Trumps went into action, first published an experiment from Almaz-antey, what will we finish ???

        I think the main trump cards have not yet shone. Who was talking about Russia's passivity in the MN-17 issue?
        1. jjj
          +5
          13 October 2015 16: 48
          At the same time, our team developed a method for determining the coordinates of a rocket launch using fuselage elements
          1. +3
            13 October 2015 18: 56
            At the same time, our team developed a method for determining the coordinates of a rocket launch using fuselage elements
            And then it was not)))
      2. +1
        13 October 2015 17: 12
        Quote: 44World
        what will we finish ???



        Large caliber ...
      3. +1
        16 October 2015 15: 30
        I can definitely say there is something.
    6. +7
      13 October 2015 16: 56
      Quote: oleg-gr
      The truth will come out.



      No truth will come out ...

      Do you really think that in the presence of large space groups neither the USA nor Russia has any data on a specific case ???

      Moreover, in this territory, near by, Russia is fighting - was it really that the airspace of the South-East of Ukraine was not under our control ??? Tokda, as Sokolov was removed because of Rust, in this case the Commander of the Air Defense Forces should not just be sent to retire ...

      Why has the question of the dispatchers who directed and led this ill-fated board been long gone?

      Why did this country Holland, which demanded the creation of an international tribunal for Boeing, literally yesterday, the day before yesterday sharply played back ???

      Why why why...

      I just want to say to all of them in the words of Faina Ranevskaya: "Let's all go to the jo ..." ...
    7. +1
      13 October 2015 17: 57
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.


      I wildly apologize for interfering .. today 13 ... the report of the Dutch Commission has already been or not ... otherwise I promised the crow to shout ... feel
      1. +1
        13 October 2015 18: 42
        Quote: vorobey
        otherwise I promised the crow to shout ...

        Get started. laughing
        As I said: Published "Pre-Preliminary". drinks
        Quote: 44World
        Trumps went to business

        Well, before that, it’s still not close, while Jacks and Ladies are in use.
        Quote: papas-57
        The culprits have already been appointed by Washington.

        And then delirium will intensify.
        Quote: bmw
        All now, and the Dutch are not brothers.

        Have they ever eaten like that?
        I was thinking, sho exclusively PARTNERS! wassat
        1. +2
          13 October 2015 19: 26
          Quote: Papakiko
          Quote: vorobey
          otherwise I promised the crow to shout ...
          Get started.


          Well, crow ... I feel so for a long time everyone knows everything .... laughing
          1. +1
            13 October 2015 21: 16
            Quote: vorobey
            Well, crow ... I feel so for a long time everyone knows everything ...

            Yes, I, too, with taboo for the company, do not miss ..... laughing
            Ku-ki-ry-ku-ki-and-i-!
          2. +1
            13 October 2015 22: 21
            Quote: vorobey
            Well crow ... I feel like this for a long time everyone knows

            - somehow it ... Drive is not enough! laughing It is necessary with expressions, an anguish in the voice, that would be from the heart! laughing But I still liked it, please repeat! laughing
            1. +1
              13 October 2015 22: 33
              Quote: aksakal
              please repeat!


              catch the tongue first tongue

              The drive is not enough ... now it will be even less ... someone .. wink

              The world community is depressed by the report ...
      2. +4
        13 October 2015 21: 14
        Quote: vorobey
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.


        I wildly apologize for interfering .. today 13 ... the report of the Dutch Commission has already been or not ... otherwise I promised the crow to shout ... feel

        Get started laughing, you at least got off with crowing, Romanov got on more wassat
        1. +2
          13 October 2015 21: 44
          Quote: atalef
          Romanov got on more


          I share if it's brandy .. laughing

          Sanya, but complained that the Dutch report seems to be there and it seems not. The mushrooms were nonspecific blah blah .. but .. the brand of the rocket was called the same, the radius in which both Zaroshchenskoye and Snezhnoye were outlined, and they began to scold Ukraine for the open sky ... although I nevertheless remain on my own ... fell him in tandem ... he should not have fallen where he fell ..
          1. 0
            13 October 2015 22: 06
            Quote: vorobey
            although I still remain on my own ... fell him in tandem ... he should not have fallen where he fell.

            I am not in the subject, but can be more detailed, please.
            Quote: vorobey
            I share if it's brandy ..

            There was a box "Courvoisier VS".
            1. +1
              13 October 2015 22: 42
              Quote: Papakiko
              I am not in the subject, but can be more detailed, please.


              I initially said that the plane should not have fallen where it had fallen ... and in Russia, as claimed by many, it should not have fallen because we would have had all the evidence then ...

              Judging by the data of objective control, the drying was really there, but its role is either to control the hit and if to finish (control shot) or initially attacked it (the cockpit) and Buk already finished off .. Answering Atalef .. Our Sanya can now and go to the bargain - forget about drying, mumbling the verdict and agreeing again to the absurd accident of Ukrainian irresponsibility and not to the planned war crime (for then they will have a pale appearance) laughing
          2. -4
            13 October 2015 22: 43
            Quote: vorobey
            Sanya, but say that the Dutch report seems to be there, and it seems not

            You do not understand one thing, as well as the European approach, by the way.
            In ancient Rome (in my opinion) they said revenge should be served on a cold plate and in small portions.
            So, in fact, they said everything (at this stage)
            It was shot down by a Buk missile (marking all 100% of the version) from the SU aircraft and to the point that the aircraft exploded itself.
            Then, they called a square of 20 sq. Km (not so big) saying that they would provide the conclusions (whose one it was) later, after additional investigation.
            You can rest assured that they already have all the data, and whose, and who, and how.
            They promised to publish on October 13, they did it.
            They will publish the next one in the clearly promised time frame.
            After they podpozdichut in Russia and accept the version of Buk as the only one, but with a question like - these are not militias.
            But after that, when the question is --- WHO? They will publish the ogs, and as you noticed, the experts have no complaints about their investigation, the Dutch do everything thoroughly.
            You can’t find fault with this report. you will not find fault with the next one.
            I will tell you my opinion.
            My opinion, which does not oblige anyone to anything.
            Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.
            Substituting Russia to the fullest.
            Russia here came under the distribution, I would not say - being out of business, but simply relying on those. to whom it was impossible.
            Typical Russian maybe, or they wanted the best - it turned out as always.
            I think so, but there’s nowhere to go - it's like in the gangster 90s, I signed up - I’ll have to pull the strap.

            Quote: vorobey
            e, and they began to scold Ukraine for the open sky ... although I still remain on my own ... fell him in tandem ... he should not have fallen where he fell ..

            they didn’t bring them down in tandem, and the investigation showed it unequivocally, saying that the defeat of a missile air = air or another plane is excluded. (Yes, it is not questioned, but simply excluded.
            That’s basically my vision of the picture - by the way, I saw it a year ago. (If you remember)
            hi
            1. +5
              13 October 2015 23: 07
              Quote: atalef
              That’s basically my vision of the picture - by the way, I saw it a year ago. (If you remember)


              Sanya and the Dutch and ours called one type of rocket ... 9M38 Ukrainian rocket .. and in the report they indicated a square of 320 KM in which both Snezhnoye and Zaroshchenskoe fall wink

              wait ..

              Quote: atalef
              Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.


              as far as I know, Beech does not shoot on his own ... and even such a conspiracy theorist like I wouldn’t pass on such a technique to the militia because the taxi driver cannot quickly restore his skills even if he served on the beech ... the Americans won, too, the Patriots rebels transmit ... limited to Manual MANPADS ..
              1. +2
                13 October 2015 23: 28
                Quote: vorobey
                Sanya and the Dutch and ours called one type of missile ... 9M38 Ukrainian missile.

                The main joke here is not in the rocket but in the warhead and its filling, and in the reports it is different.
                Quote: vorobey
                and they indicated in the report a square of 320 km into which Snezhnoye and Zaroshchenskoe fall

                And this is the HPP "live bait" for the "partners", let them further twist their asses under which yaldo they will fall. Fortunately, there is a choice laughing
                Quote: vorobey
                agreeing again to the absurd accident of Ukrainian irresponsibility and not to a planned war crime (for then they will have a pale appearance)

                It is categorically true, it is according to "feng shui", "oi-ki-do or" ah-after-sl ".
                Quote: vorobey
                Drying there really was judging by the data of objective control

                And this is poker and the joker of the party and it can even with a high degree of probability not be shown.
                Quote: vorobey
                and even such a conspiracy theorist

              2. 0
                14 October 2015 00: 48
                vorobey
                as far as I know, Beech does not shoot on his own ... and even such a conspiracy theorist like I wouldn’t pass on such a technique to the militia because the taxi driver cannot quickly restore his skills even if he served on the beech ... the Americans won, too, the Patriots rebels transmit ... limited to Manual MANPADS ..

                And he even shoots himself. For a long time I haven’t sat in SOU 9A310, but even now I’m ready to “work”. I’ll even say more, I’m enough in the SDU, without calculation. Nothing has been invented more versatile than this machine. Only "Thor" has something similar, but its range is too small.
            2. +1
              15 October 2015 05: 22
              Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.


              The problem turns out. The militia did not find anything more serious than MANPADS, they could not overwhelm the Boeing. There are so many intelligence satellites, including American ones, over Ukraine that it is not difficult to spot the Buk. Moreover, the work of the radar of the complex is also detected at a time. Yes, if the Americans saw our complexes there, they certainly would not have kept silent, such a gift would have been for whipping up anti-Russian hysteria. In the same way as our Ministry of Defense did not become silent on the Ukrovsky BUKs, there was an open report that how much and how many times. Moreover, the ukrov already have a sad experience of shooting at passenger planes (2001 flight Tel Aviv - Novosibirsk). Conclusion: if the amers had at least one reliable photo of the presence of a BUK, the militia would have rang out right there. And they know perfectly well who was shooting, because they themselves directed this story. Our "western partners wanted fool "repeat the history of the South Korean Boeing, but they worked clumsy.
            3. +3
              15 October 2015 06: 30
              Quote: atalef
              Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.

              And why didn’t another three passenger planes run over the course of 49 minutes in the same square? Fell down so until the vodka is over ...

              Quote: atalef
              the defeat of a missile air = air or another plane - is excluded. (Yes, it is not questioned, but simply excluded.

              excluded air ramming aircraft?

              There are 30mm holes on the Boeing’s cockpit. None of the Buck warheads 30mm shrapnel has. This is a 30mm air gun. Elements (I-beam parallelepiped, fraction, rods) of the warhead of a missile launcher are two to three times smaller. Maximum 13 * 13 * 8mm. Pictures for an I-beam + parallelepiped with their measurements are in the article. Holes can be found and measured on the photo of a Boeing’s cabin of good quality (and not like here).

              For the whole year and did not? So busy here because you get a lot of money? wassat
            4. 0
              12 July 2017 01: 30
              For some reason, I also think that the militias shot down. Although you probably remember how Ukraine shot down a plane flying to you. Which also speaks of handshake.
    8. +2
      13 October 2015 18: 02
      "Let them try to refute it." Useless. Whatever Russia says, whatever it does, the Western media will distort it in such a way that it looks like an excuse and a falsification of facts. The perpetrators have already been appointed by Washington.
      1. +2
        14 October 2015 01: 18
        Already refuted. In today's report on National Public Radio (USA) own
        Corridor Flintoff, an NPR correspondent in Moscow, commented on the following:

        (not verbatim) Russia in the Face of Almaz Antey rejected the Dutch report as inconsistent and erroneous. According to him, Almaz-Antey stated that the missile that shot down the MH17 was not the 9M38M1 (as indicated in the Dutch report) but the older 9M38, which is not in service with the RFR, but is in service in Ukraine. Further, Corrie noted that the statements of AA (Almaz-Antey) about "elementary geometry" did not make any sense since the rocket was controlled and therefore changed its trajectory in flight. An expensive field test carried out by A-A also means little, since both objects were immovable, and the MH17 and the rocket were moving at great speed.
        Further, Corry continued:
        "From the photographs of the beech that were published on the network a year ago, they (probably his team) were able to determine the geolocation of the place where the picture was taken (not far from Torez). Then they were even able to visit that place and make sure that this is the same place. They could not find not a single witness who saw the Beech.
        When asked by the presenter about what he himself thinks of the disaster, Corry answered approximately as follows:
        I think that there really was a beech from the militias who possibly brought in from the Russian Federation. But it is unlikely that the militia would be able to shoot out of it since it is really a complex technique and requires certain skills. Most likely, Buk was controlled by a group of trained RF military ...

        Push:
        No government propaganda is needed. Public Radio, considered to be an independent liberal news resource in the United States with a multi-million audience, will do everything by itself ...
        1. +2
          14 October 2015 12: 52
          Further, Corrie noted that the statements of AA (Almaz-Antey) about "elementary geometry" did not make any sense since the missile was guided and therefore changed its trajectory in flight.

          As I understand it, the Buk rocket does not play catch-up, but flies to intercept the highlighted target. If the target does not maneuver, and the Boeing flew at the same speed and did not change direction, then why would the rocket change its trajectory? Those. "elementary geometry" roughly speaking has an application here. Is not it?
    9. The comment was deleted.
    10. +5
      13 October 2015 21: 12
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Almaz-Antey Concern presented a detailed report on the results of the experiment. Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.

      Well, what about the TFR version?
      They also have a state witness who passed on a lie detector. Or is this version no longer being considered? As with the negotiations of the dispatchers and the statement of the Defense Ministry with radar control, where representatives of the Defense Ministry unequivocally stated that the Boeing had been shot down by SU, I’m not talking about the photo published by Leontyev.
      As you all quickly surrendered and rushed to confirm the conclusions of Antei and the Dutch.
      And what, all the previous time, both the TFR and the Moscow Oblast - worked in vain and bullshit pushed people for half a year?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        13 October 2015 21: 32
        Quote: atalef
        How did you all quickly surrender and rush to confirm the conclusions of Antey and the Dutch. And what, all the previous time, both the TFR and the MO worked in vain and bullshit pushed people for half a year?


        The previous versions have a right to exist, several versions can be given when they all get along together: an airplane attack, finished off with a beech, a random air defense missile defense (everyone knows about the Ukrainian arms of the Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners) the plane was redirected to see where it went and nobody canceled the control shot, really it hurt for Ukraine it was beneficial. Well, the witness did not say about the attack by plane, he said that the take-off was with explosives, and the landing was without, again, the competence of this technician is not confirmed anywhere and whether he can distinguish explosives from airplanes, hardly any launches were made in Ukraine. Something like this.
        1. +3
          13 October 2015 22: 48
          Quote: qqqq
          The previous versions have a right to exist, several versions can be cited when they all get along together: an airplane attack, finished off with a beech, a random air defense missile system (everyone knows about the curvature of Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners)

          Has the right to exist ... and nothing more.
          You see very well that after the Dutch, and after Antei there are no differences.
          This is Buk, only the question remains - whose.
          Quote: qqqq
          Well, the witness did not say about the attack by plane, he said that the take-off was with BB missiles, and the landing was without, again, the competence of this technician is not confirmed anywhere and whether he can distinguish missiles B

          claimed and TFR claimed. giving him the status of state witness.
          Otherwise, why was all this circus?
          Not only claimed. but also gave the name of the pilot (whom the TFR accused of attacking the Boeing) - correct if I'm wrong?
          1. +4
            13 October 2015 23: 12
            Quote: atalef
            claimed and TFR claimed. giving him the status of state witness.
            Otherwise, why was all this circus?
            Not only claimed. but also gave the name of the pilot (whom the TFR accused of attacking the Boeing) - correct if I'm wrong?


            And TFR recently claimed that Yatsenyuk tortured our soldiers in Chechnya ... Version? a bunch of versions are being put forward and they could argue and insist that the data of black boxes and negotiations with the dispatcher be published .. I read that the last 45 seconds of the pilots' life activity give a complete picture of everything that is happening, including the fact that the pilots saw the last .. Alas, no decryption of black boxes , no negotiations with the dispatcher can be seen ... you say this is not weird ..?
            1. 0
              16 October 2015 12: 36
              > And the TFR recently claimed that Yatsenyuk tortured our soldiers in Chechnya ...

              But did the TFR provide the full passport data of this Yatsenyuk? TFR just went in for trolling, talking about the namesake of the Ukrainian Prime Minister
              1. 0
                12 July 2017 01: 32
                There was a video with an egg in Chechnya. And there he could do anything
          2. +1
            14 October 2015 09: 09
            Quote: atalef
            Not only claimed. but also gave the name of the pilot (whom the TFR accused of attacking the Boeing) - correct if I'm wrong?

            As far as I remember, TFR put forward a version, and this is not a charge. Again, any version is a good reason, at least for verification. This is precisely what the TFR called for, so that the Dutch would come and work with our evidence, if they accuse us. Whether the witness spoke the truth or not is a rhetorical question, if, again, the Dutch took it seriously and worked with it, it would be clear, and this is a topic for speculation, moreover, in one direction and in the other.
            Quote: atalef
            You see very well that after the Dutch, and after Antei there are no differences.

            Antey could not discuss any other question, his task was to work out mathematically and in-situ the version with Buk. And again, this version does not in any way cross out the version with the aircraft, they can quite naturally complement each other. You just have to drop all politics and investigate objectively. Unfortunately this is not real.
            1. 0
              14 October 2015 12: 12
              Everything is real ... and the same dispatcher-pravosechku hatch out or "seize on their territory" as Ms. MEP Savchenko.
              On the other hand, who really need GMOs, let Western intelligence services deal with them, their citizens died as well as aircraft equipment. Either pull it out and give it to the Malaysians to chop off something or take it to the Dutch doctor-euthanasiologist, or to sit comfortably like a Breivik.
              In their place, I wouldn’t send operatives for this - it’s not our problem, but it’s not for me to decide. From the point of view of common sense, such a type must at least be isolated (at least to a fool if not to prison) so as not to cause trouble, all sorts of different.
          3. The comment was deleted.
    11. Mih
      -1
      15 October 2015 02: 29
      Let them try to refute it. stop

      They will not be so. No need to throw a bisser in front of the pigs.
    12. 0
      15 October 2015 10: 04
      there is such a thing. The "opposite" side seems to live and act from the principle of believe / do not believe. In any case, those who are pursuing their line in our country. Radio Svoboda and NG believe, no nasty arguments. Motivation - I chose a side and that's it. Democracy in action hi
    13. 0
      16 October 2015 02: 38
      Do not believe those who say that quitting smoking in a week is impossible. There is a special and really working technique that will save you from this addiction in a few days, here https://dmitrinosov.blogspot.ru link Itself could not quit for a very long time, but this time it really happened.
    14. 0
      16 October 2015 14: 35
      Poroshenko for 1000 dollars will draw a cartoon about how everything was "in reality" and refute the experiment, which cost a million.
  2. +12
    13 October 2015 15: 25
    "Guilty" without us appointed even before the tragedy
    1. +14
      13 October 2015 15: 34
      Quote: Victor BG
      "Guilty" without us appointed even before the tragedy

      But now it will be much more difficult for Washington to blame everything on the militia and on Russia.
      1. +6
        13 October 2015 15: 50
        Quote: vovanpain

        But now it will be much more difficult for Washington to blame everything on the militia and on Russia.

        Well, for some reason, they will say, we shot down from the "BUK". All the crappy countries of the world have long known that our army is fighting there.
        1. +10
          13 October 2015 16: 51
          Quote: Kil 31
          Quote: vovanpain

          But now it will be much more difficult for Washington to blame everything on the militia and on Russia.

          Well, for some reason, they will say, we shot down from the "BUK". All the crappy countries of the world have long known that our army is fighting there.

          By the way, LiveNews reported that the Dutch’s conclusion coincided with the conclusions of Almaz Antey. So far, Ukraine has been accused of not closing the air corridor through the war zone, and they are not authorized to indicate the true culprits of the tragedy.
          1. 0
            14 October 2015 01: 23
            According to the Dutch, the investigation did not set out to find the culprit.
            The task was to identify the cause of the disaster.
            In parallel, a criminal investigation is underway to establish the vinyl and to bring them to justice.
  3. +15
    13 October 2015 15: 26
    Our beauties !!! But it seems to me that we are sword-beading in front of pigs. No matter how blasphemous it may sound, these "European experts" will be able to admit, as irrefutable proof, only the testimony of a living passenger from the Boeing. Hush up the whole investigation!
    1. +3
      13 October 2015 15: 29
      Quote: Decathlon
      Our beauties !!! But it seems to me that we are sword-beading in front of pigs. No matter how blasphemous it may sound, these "European experts" will be able to admit, as irrefutable proof, only the testimony of a living passenger from the Boeing. Hush up the whole investigation!


      You need to express your point of view.
      1. Darkoff
        +4
        13 October 2015 15: 36
        Yes! Our well done! They do everything they can in this situation.
        I will add: it’s only bad that formally the West considers Russia, if not guilty, then an interested party. With this excuse, they will dismiss all our arguments.
        1. +4
          13 October 2015 19: 15
          this excuse will dismiss all our arguments.
          Arguments can be dismissed, but facts are more complicated, there is data from a full-scale experiment, which can be repeated at any time in the presence of any commission, it will show that the missile which the crime was sewn could not be there because of the nature of the injuries that are and which no, but they should be there. Any simulation, and even more so a full-scale experiment, will show (since it is known by what laws the fragments fly apart) in which planes the warhead was at the moment of detonation, and this, in turn, indicates which side and how the rocket approached the target, and then knowing the characteristics of the rocket ( the type of which, with fragments and damaging elements, can be established with almost 100% probability) to narrow the area of ​​the alleged launch, into which the grassrookers poked their noses today and their report turned out to be essentially a repetition of the Russian version with inconclusive formulations: the Russian Federation agrees with us on many points, but It has comments on the type of rocket and the intended launch site, but we believe that we did everything right, sort of. As for our conference, everything is wonderful, but there is a remark, yet when they stutter and can’t connect a couple of words, having such weighty facts in their hands it looks somehow staged, therefore for the work of the Almazovites 5, for the conference 3, the concern is serious , with the name and you need to work on the image, the ability to firmly and convincingly express your thoughts ... But this IMHO smile
        2. +1
          13 October 2015 21: 16
          Quote: DarkOFF
          Yes! Our well done! They do everything they can in this situation.

          Yes, even before Antei, at least 5 were presented, absolutely believable versions - though Buk was not in them.
    2. +2
      13 October 2015 16: 51
      And what could passengers say if they all survived? Would they say that they saw at what angle and in what azimuth a rocket flew up? They that saw everything and looked with all eyes waiting, from where and, most importantly, from whom, the trouble will come?
    3. 0
      13 October 2015 17: 14
      Quote: Decathlon
      these "euro experts" will be able to admit, as irrefutable evidence, only testimony a live passenger from a Boeing.



      And if you clone one of them from a DNA cell ???

      PS I know that a bad joke ...
      1. +2
        13 October 2015 20: 33
        I do not understand in this situation - why were they given to the Dutch at all? If ours so quickly can put together coalitions - they took the wreckage for themselves - they would invite the Malaysians and a couple of other states to investigate and conduct it themselves. This sometimes impermissible loyalty to our enemies - that they will not go against the truth anyway - then turns back on us. In the west, everyone is already sure that the Boeing was "shot down by Putin" and it will be difficult to convince them otherwise. There was clearly a prepared provocation - as soon as this event happened, all the foreigners howled as if on command. I called my relative in London - she had already formed an opinion - Putin is a fascist - destroyed a peaceful plane. There, propaganda is powerful. And it was not clear to me - why the fragments were given away - they themselves would have investigated.
  4. +7
    13 October 2015 15: 26
    No expert can better prove or disprove the findings of Almaz-Antey
    1. +1
      13 October 2015 17: 15
      Quote: Engineer
      No expert can better prove or disprove the findings of Almaz-Antey



      Ukrainian - easily !!!
  5. +5
    13 October 2015 15: 26
    The Netherlands has already flashed its report. NOTHING about anything!
    They only said that it was a BUK, but on the modification of the disagreement. The launch area is such that anyone could shoot. Only Ukrainians indicated the exact starting point in their opinion (without witnesses and calculations). Well, a couple of videos about how to collect the debris and the reconstruction process showed. In short epic file.
  6. +2
    13 October 2015 15: 27
    Western bullshit will not work.
  7. +3
    13 October 2015 15: 29
    So the Dutch also presented a report, a Boeing was shot down by a Russian-made rocket and said from where they immediately told everyone from the militia, but the lawyer for the dead said that the lawsuits would be filed both against Ukraine and Russia.
    And why didn’t I understand Russia.
  8. +1
    13 October 2015 15: 30
    "... but the truth is more precious" ...
  9. +1
    13 October 2015 15: 30
    We worked ahead of the curve, that's right, now let them try to push their "clumsy" version.
  10. -34
    13 October 2015 15: 31
    There is the International Commission, and this is just a certain concern made a "counter move" on instructions to powder the brains with cotton wool. Who authorized him at all?
    Here is an article http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/27304059.html, where all the arguments of Almaz-Antey are refuted.
    1. +7
      13 October 2015 15: 41
      A certain concern, be afraid of God, Almaz-Antey designed it, and draw conclusions for him.
    2. +7
      13 October 2015 15: 53
      Quote: Stas Karpov
      There is the International Commission, and this is just a certain concern made a "counter move" on instructions in order to powder the brains with cotton wool. Who authorized him at all? Here is an article http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/27304059.html, where all the arguments of Almaz-Antey are refuted.


      I did not see any refutation, the Dutch version and the testimonies of some volunteers are given, probably from the Censor. In general, I am once again convinced that Ukraine lives in the world of its fantasies.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +10
      13 October 2015 15: 54
      A certain authorized Stas, why don't you give references to Bibigon or Kitchen-TV, "refuting the arguments of Almaz-Antey"?
    5. +7
      13 October 2015 16: 57
      Quote: Stas Karpov
      ... dust the brains of cotton wool

      Of course, we are cotton quilted jackets with cotton wool instead of brains ...
      and it’s impossible to powder the brains of heroes ... due to the lack of them ...
    6. +5
      13 October 2015 17: 13
      Quote: Stas Karpov
      ... all the arguments of Almaz-Antey are refuted.

      Have you read the article yourself?
      if from the article about the conclusions of the Dutch "to squeeze the water", then in the "dry residue" we get:
      - Malaysian Airlines plane flew through a dangerous area, knowing about it
      - Ukraine did not close the sky over the dangerous area, knowing that the area is dangerous
      - the plane was shot down by a beech missile

      where and in what did you see the refutation of the conclusions of specialists from Almaz-Antey?
    7. +1
      13 October 2015 17: 58
      Yeah, refuted by whom? A commission of professionals with access to primary sources and technical expertise?
      Quote from your link:
      Almaz-Antey's version that the missile was launched from the Ukrainian-controlled village of Zaroshchenskoye was also previously denied, in particular, in an investigation by an international volunteer groups Bellingcat. According to its participants, the date on the satellite images provided by Almaz-Antey, in which the Ukrainian Buks are visible in Zaroshchenskoye, was falsified, and polls of people in this village showed that none of them saw or heard the launch of the rocket on July 17 - unlike the village of Snezhnoe, where there are such witnesses.
      On this site we are all such "Volunteer Experts"
    8. 0
      12 July 2017 01: 40
      Troll go to the censor. And cotton wool in your head instead of brains. You have the Russian flag from the fact that vpn is turned on or from the fact that in Russia you are hiding from the draft, or you work for Russia. In any case, there is a commercial offer for you. You need to do what you are doing now. More in hp.
      And by the way, you can immediately see shkolota, since you put the movie character in FD (I will not talk about underdevelopment, I hope everything is fine with this). Conclusion - you are a bulk minion who is 14-16 years old, who pays taxes, but they are plundered;)
  11. +10
    13 October 2015 15: 33
    Boeing DIDN'T WORK. Blank shot. The West and Ukrainians have killed about 300 people. Without causing harm to the entire Planet, nothing.
  12. +11
    13 October 2015 15: 33
    Now Psaki Pookie Nolte Tolty will speak and, using them, with one unsubstantiated piece of paper, he will report that - "vsevretiii" - there is no other way to repulse ... they did not come up with their own shit ...

    Well, what? - and all official Europe will pick up - and say - Yes! - Ameeeika law - albeit without evidence, - and the Russian experiment is false and filmed on a mosfilm ......


    I hope of course that will not be so. But I won’t be surprised. sad

    It's easy for them! - "the dumber the lie, the easier it is to rub in" (c) - Captain America.



    Russians conduct experiments, analysis, analysis of physical data. And what do you need usa? - simplicity is needed in the usa ..... finally you will not go into details .....

    And (not all) the world will say - yes we believe your test tubes! - because 800! US military bases scattered across continents.
  13. +6
    13 October 2015 15: 35
    Now they will say that the 777th and 86th are so different planes that the striking elements of the rocket hit them at different angles.
  14. +9
    13 October 2015 15: 39
    Since the Dutch failed to determine who shot, it means that Russia has every right to make claims against countries that have imposed sanctions against it. I think that the total zeros will not be small.
  15. +5
    13 October 2015 15: 40
    the Dutch have already released their findings. Boeing report: Ukraine was supposed to close the sky and Boeing was shot down by a Buk missile
  16. +10
    13 October 2015 15: 43
    Almaz-Antey is experimenting; even the plane (though decommissioned) was stripped; And what has a powerful international investigation team been doing for 15 months?

    How long have you been looking for striking elements?

    And, in general, if they were shot down by a Buk missile, why are there no representatives of the rocket manufacturer in this investigation team?

    If Ukraine is under suspicion, why is Ukraine (the suspect!) Included in the commission, but Russia is not?
    1. +2
      13 October 2015 16: 35
      Than than. The same as the international coalition in Syria. The cat is pulled for ya.ts.a.
    2. +1
      13 October 2015 17: 53
      Quote: Gormengast
      Almaz-Antey is experimenting; even the plane (though decommissioned) was stripped; And what has a powerful international investigation team been doing for 15 months?

      How long have you been looking for striking elements?

      And, in general, if they were shot down by a Buk missile, why are there no representatives of the rocket manufacturer in this investigation team?

      If Ukraine is under suspicion, why is Ukraine (the suspect!) Included in the commission, but Russia is not?

      So it will be easier to declare bias and incompetence of the conclusions of the commission, a report in our favor can be fabricated even with the participation of Russian specialists in the commission.
  17. +3
    13 October 2015 15: 44
    what to send to these echo alcohols all over the world. it’s easier to carry out a natural case. and for this you need to ... put the entire urine-ruin guide into a Boeing and send them to the height at which the downed Malaysian Boeing flew. to shoot it with its own rocket and it will be clear who and whose dog is pissing ...
  18. +1
    13 October 2015 15: 44
    There is one saying-they even "stsy" in the eye-all the dew of God! But they don’t know our sayings and they don’t want to until the 45th is over again!
  19. +2
    13 October 2015 15: 45
    But what about the report of the commission from the Netherlands? Crap! About nothing. As I thought...
    1. +3
      13 October 2015 18: 11
      It seems that the most absurd ukro-version has been cut off: bestial quilted jackets brought the Russian Buk to Ukraine, took aim, fired, and unnoticedly brought the Buk back.

      The sane citizens (and not only Russia) a priori understood that this was terrible nonsense.

      Now the addicts themselves wrote in the report that they used a rocket that has not been produced in Russia for a long time and which has reached all the warranty periods.

      And the launch point of the rocket was not announced; only the obvious truth remained that Boeing was shot down over the territory of Ukraine. So let him answer; in a company with a carrier who took the risk of "flying" over the territory of hostilities.
  20. +4
    13 October 2015 15: 46
    The Dutch commission has no experts at all. These people in everyday life are engaged in industrial safety. Neither the conclusions of the Western "commission" nor the Russian experiments will lead to a consensus. The only thing that is indisputable is that the carrier is to blame for the death of people.
    1. +1
      13 October 2015 18: 14
      An expert on the missile used can only be a competent representative of its manufacturer, who was not on the commission.

      We do not "expert" Tomahawks.

      Accordingly, the incompetent "competent" brigade is sheer obscurantism, in the form of finger-guessing.
  21. +4
    13 October 2015 15: 49
    It would be nice for the “Dutch specialists” before making statements about the direction of impact on the plane, to repeat the school geometry course


    \ Yes, and it would not be bad to study the rules for investigating such incidents. I remember how Kuchma fought back from the accusation of the death of TU-154 over the Crimea. I was bothered to the last, supposedly dill is not capable of it. They are older than dinosaurs, etc. .. And even when they locked it, they still did not pay the victims' relatives.
  22. +4
    13 October 2015 15: 51
    . The guilty were appointed even before the Boeing was shot down, but there were just a lot of doubters, and Russia, with the humility of a sacrificial bull, did not shake its mane: “Yes, this is us, forgive us.” Now the SGA and K ° turnips of the scales, how to smear the wards ...
  23. +5
    13 October 2015 15: 52
    I listened to the guy from Diamond on TV. I enjoyed the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the work done on the Diamond. It’s like from Caspians. Let's look at the reaction of the authors of the disaster. It is clear that all the bumps will be loaded in our direction, but the opinion of ordinary people who have suffered from it will most likely be for our expertise. We will see ....
  24. +3
    13 October 2015 15: 53
    All those who found out who pulled during a fight in a passerby very skillfully took away from the main issue, which the Dutch, by the way, promised to cover.
    And what actually did the civilian side in the area of ​​military operations and working air defense. Who was in charge of the plane
    The board was accepted by the Ukrainian navigation and escort service on its territory, which means that it bears full responsibility for it. If everything is not calm in your country, then there is no need to carry out airplanes there.
    1. +2
      13 October 2015 17: 20
      Already gone more pragmatic dvizhuha
      Relatives of the victims of the passengers of the Boeing 777 of flight MH17 may file lawsuits against the authorities of Ukraine on the fact that they did not close the sky for overflights over the territory of Donbass, where the hostilities were fought. This was told to RBC by the lawyer of the Dutch law office ATS Viru Maiva, representing the interests of 76 members of the families of passengers of MH17.
      Maiva specified that he would study all the materials and then file lawsuits, if possible. “Immediately after the presentation of the report, my clients called me for advice: they want to understand how realistic it is to file claims against the Ukrainian authorities. The report concluded that the territory of this part of Ukraine should have been closed to flights. I told my clients that I need to study the report in detail: if there are sufficient reasons, lawsuits against Ukraine may be filed, ”he said.
      Read more at RBC:
      http://www.rbc.ru/politics/13/10/2015/561d045a9a79473330a9ee26
      1. 0
        13 October 2015 18: 04
        Quote: Not served
        Already gone more pragmatic dvizhuha
        Relatives of the victims of the passengers of the Boeing 777 of flight MH17 may file lawsuits against the authorities of Ukraine on the fact that they did not close the sky for overflights over the territory of Donbass, where the hostilities were fought. This was told to RBC by the lawyer of the Dutch law office ATS Viru Maiva, representing the interests of 76 members of the families of passengers of MH17.
        Maiva specified that he would study all the materials and then file lawsuits, if possible. “Immediately after the presentation of the report, my clients called me for advice: they want to understand how realistic it is to file claims against the Ukrainian authorities. The report concluded that the territory of this part of Ukraine should have been closed to flights. I told my clients that I need to study the report in detail: if there are sufficient reasons, lawsuits against Ukraine may be filed, ”he said.
        Read more at RBC:
        http://www.rbc.ru/politics/13/10/2015/561d045a9a79473330a9ee26

        But is this not preparing the ground for jamming things? So to say, apologize with a crocodile tear in your eye, pay compensation, in the press they will hide something and embellish it. As a result, everything is small and fluffy.
  25. +2
    13 October 2015 15: 54
    We are waiting for the drain of information on the negotiation of military dispatchers. My question is, could a Su-25 direct a Buk missile onto a plane?
    1. +3
      13 October 2015 16: 19
      No, I could not !!!
      Here another confuses - the wind was 3-5 m / s in this situation the trail from the Buk missile should remain for at least 15-20 minutes (and not frail) !!!! what
      1. 0
        14 October 2015 07: 09
        There’s something else that bothers you - 30mm hits on a Boeing and not 13, 8 or 5 mm. On the Su-25 there is just the same gun lol so Diamond plays some strange games ...
  26. +6
    13 October 2015 15: 55
    One can confidently say about the work of the Dutch "commission": "The mountain gave birth to a mouse ..." Complete incompetence, confused and illogical explanations, a superficial approach - all this was fully demonstrated by the "commission". The degradation of Westerners is striking - they cannot even lie believably !!!
  27. Riv
    +2
    13 October 2015 16: 08
    A very competent move, and made exactly one day before the publication of the Dutch report. And it’s too late to polish something in the report, and it will not work to ignore it. In principle, expected. It was clear from the very beginning that a parallel investigation would be conducted. The wreckage fell on the territory controlled by the militia. Ours had the opportunity to examine corpses and study damage to structures. Of course, this opportunity was taken.
    Because the Dutch pulled for so long with the report. What was difficult: to extract the damaging elements from the bodies? But in the end, the report still turned out about nothing.
  28. 0
    13 October 2015 16: 08
    . In Soviet times, 9M38 missiles were delivered to Ukraine. Accurate data on the quantity of such ammunition in the Ukrainian army has not been preserved to date. Eprst .... The author of the statement is a victim of the EG
  29. +3
    13 October 2015 16: 09
    What kind of P.I.doraces, they are Dutch, what can we expect from them, assholes
    1. +2
      13 October 2015 18: 18
      and drug addicts also. laughing

      That is, a complete set of democratic freedoms.
  30. +2
    13 October 2015 16: 09
    Now zapadentsy will begin to scribble their cheap articles about falsification.
  31. 0
    13 October 2015 16: 12
    What is there on the Censor with farts? wink Who is in the know?
  32. +1
    13 October 2015 16: 15
    But what about the alleged fragments in the form of an I-beam from the 9M38M1 rocket? Why do they not coincide with the rectangular openings in the aircraft body?
  33. +2
    13 October 2015 16: 24
    Quote: kuz363
    But what about the alleged fragments in the form of an I-beam from the 9M38M1 rocket? Why do they not coincide with the rectangular openings in the aircraft body?

    Because it’s just a forgery, in full accordance with the European understanding of international law. Only when the dust is dispersed will it be very difficult for some to wash themselves off from sewage. Moreover, judging by the Dutch report, it has already begun to reach them.
  34. +1
    13 October 2015 16: 31
    The Russian concern Almaz-Antey (JSC Concern PVO Almaz-Antey), ahead of the so-called international investigation team (in common, the “Dutch experts”), presented a report on the results of a full-scale experiment, which allows to draw final conclusions about what was the main cause of the crash of a Boeing 777 aircraft of a Malaysian airline.


    It looks like this is not a report, but a resounding slap in the face of the "Dutch experts" who wanted to arrange a "PRESENTATION".
  35. +1
    13 October 2015 16: 38
    Quote: Stinger
    I remember how Kuchma fought back from the accusation of the death of TU-154 over the Crimea. I was bothered to the last, supposedly dill is not capable of it. They are older than dinosaurs, etc. .. And even when they locked it, they still did not pay the victims' relatives.



    No, "PROFESSOR" claimed that they paid on the sly, so as not to stir up an international conflict.
  36. 0
    13 October 2015 16: 47
    Now the Dutch will begin to fight back and dig in, defending their conclusions, nodding that in a "hurry" they could have made some inaccuracies and mistakes.
  37. 0
    13 October 2015 16: 50
    What and how, it was clear to the hedgehog, a year ago ....
    I would like to draw the attention of those who write to the presentation in Kiev of the film Raid, which the junta presents as a documentary. I think that in the near future, someone will try to highlight this topic and debunk the outright informational nonsense, when they try to present the offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the militia as deep raids of the Ukrainian assault force (400 km) across the Russian-occupied territory, and shameful defeats as the greatest victories. who ... came to study American military theorists.
    There is no doubt that such an article will be, and therefore I draw the attention of the future author to one article ("Hero of Ukraine Serhiy Sobko:" There were moments when only the prayers of loved ones saved us "), where one of the heroes presented at the presentation of this film a month ago he gave an interview about his “successes” and “victories.” In which he said that “everything was successful” was only with a successful escape from the next cauldron.
  38. -20
    13 October 2015 17: 11
    We all living near Snezhny know: Boeing was knocked down from a beech, which they brought to the Donbass. Why come up with other versions, turn on the logic ...
    1. +9
      13 October 2015 17: 19
      and personally saw the trace of the rocket?

      it would be more correct to write
      Quote: kostavit
      Мы everything, daughters of officersliving near Snow know ...
    2. +6
      13 October 2015 18: 17
      Quote: kostavit
      Boeing shot down from a beech, which was brought to the Donbass.

      Armed Forces of Ukraine?
      Result of the Danes: Launch area of ​​320 sq. Km.

      The same Donbas
      in the area of ​​n.p. Zaroshchenskoye, according to space intelligence data of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on July 17.07.2014, XNUMX, self-propelled firing systems of the Buk air defense system of the Ukrainian Armed Forces were located.

      moreover, a full-fledged SAM, and not a single self-propelled gun

      then I agree.

      question why? the militia didn’t have an air force; the air forces of the Russian Federation did not see it.


      If you are "subtly hinting" at the RF Armed Forces, then:
      1.classical
      Whose prodest?
      The biggest benefits from Boeing were gained by the USA (otherwise it would not be possible to create an international coalition) and Ukraine (it would not exist anymore)
      For Russia, only hemorrhoids.
      2.If you have already "brought" to Snezhnoe ONLY 1nu SAU without KP, SOTs, ROM, units of technical support and maintenance, communications platoon ...
      That would probably be smart enough to put in a first-class crew, but not militiamen from former hairdressers, drivers, and conscripts of the RF Armed Forces can’t be imprisoned (leaking)
      Then it’s not clear how they could mix up the Boeing with the aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? (Flight level, speed, EPR, etc.)
      as shown in paragraph 1, knocking down a Boeing for the Russian Federation is pointless and very harmful

      Threat defeat the goal only with the SDA is certainly possible, but this is not a trivial task.
      even more so when there at that moment
      3. On launching a rocket from anywhere in the Snezhnoye area with striking elements only the bow of the aircraft would be affected, and there could be no damage to the wing, engine, and especially the stabilizer and tail.

      But from Zaroschensky, yes.
      1. 0
        14 October 2015 08: 52
        Quote: opus
        If you are "subtly hinting" at the RF Armed Forces, then:
        1.classical
        Whose prodest?
        The biggest benefits from Boeing were gained by the USA (otherwise it would not be possible to create an international coalition) and Ukraine (it would not exist anymore)
        For Russia, only hemorrhoids.


        No matter whose benefit, it is important who managed.

        You are an intelligent person, how much can you believe in propaganda?

        On July 17, on the day of the Boeing 777 disaster, state-run news agencies ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti announced that "militias" shot down an AN-26 aircraft near the town of Torez

        1. 0
          14 October 2015 11: 46
          If you were an intelligent person, then you would understand that according to reports a large plane similar to the An-26 crashed from the ground, that's why they reported ... The militias do not have air defense control centers of the country.
          The little ones usually fell Su-25. Both were decentralized and knocked down by the militias and did not fall by themselves. So, if it fell, it was shot down by the militia ... If it was a two-engine gun and a big one, then it was An-26. No one could have thought that the Ukrainian Armed Forces would knock their own or even a "neutral" twin-engine airliner (similar to the An-26).
          Then when we arrived at the place and began to sort out what had fallen - the opinion of what had happened, and therefore the blog, was changed. A loan on the site incorrect information, and even such?
          1. +1
            14 October 2015 11: 59
            Quote: Scraptor
            Militias have no Country Air Defense Command Centers.

            That's right. I would also add that the militia, at that time (since spring), pressed all the power of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (you can make fun of poopers, but it was like the 2nd Army in Europe), a country with a population of 40 million people. -2 million people, without full-time aircraft.
            to the Opolechniks any victory (or the myth of victory) was needed like air.
            Therefore, their (and our) inform agencies recorded on the militia’s combat account, all that is possible.
            And the "shot down" air defense of the militia TR Tochka-u, and the IS-3, which went to the front line.
            In principle, blaming them for stuffing is not correct. Recall Sovinformbyurov 1941-1942, when it was very difficult. Or the Reich Propaganda Ministry in 1944-1945
      2. +2
        14 October 2015 09: 20
        Quote: opus
        1.classical
        Whose prodest?
        The biggest benefits from Boeing were gained by the USA (otherwise it would not be possible to create an international coalition) and Ukraine (it would not exist anymore)
        For Russia, only hemorrhoids.


        No matter whose benefit, it is important who managed.

        You are an intelligent person, how much can you believe in propaganda?

        On July 17, on the day of the Boeing 777 disaster, state news agencies ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti announced that the "militias" shot down the AN-26 aircraft near the city of Torez / you can see:

        http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017,

        http://ria.ru/world/20140717/1016409306.html

        Igor Girkin (Strelkov) in the evening of the same day reports on social networks that the "militias" shot down the plane. Here:

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658499310886339&set=a.233159876753620.52


        584.100001788291627 & type = 1
        [img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10494575_65849
        9310886339_577220331649806115_n.jpg?oh=e8f69246ef58e9caa5ea64c442188d8b&oe=56C84
        9AB [/ img]

        Shortly before the plane crash, the Kremlin media — NTV, Russia 24, and others — informed the Russian audience that Buk anti-aircraft missile systems had appeared in Donbass militias. look:

        http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1741703&tid=105474

        In an interview with Reuters, in particular, one of the leaders of the militia Alexander Khodakovsky said this:

        http://www.svoboda.org/media/video/25468582.html

        Indirectly, the representative of Russia to the UN Vitaly Churkin admitted guilt of the militia for the downed Boeing. I did not have time to get the installation on top crying

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzSdsrpzDTw&feature=youtu.be&t=4m13s

        Quote: opus
        That would probably be smart enough to put in a first-class crew, but not militiamen from former hairdressers, drivers, and conscripts of the RF Armed Forces can’t be imprisoned (leaking)
        Then it’s not clear how they could mix up the Boeing with the aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? (Flight level, speed, EPR, etc.)


        Looks were not enough. Then our valiant Moscow Defense Ministry already compromised themselves:

        Four days after the crash, Channel One of Russian television voiced a version of the General Staff that the Boeing was shot down by the Ukrainian attack aircraft SU-25

        http://www.1tv.ru/news/polit/263583

        Even the main witness appeared: Yevgeny Agapov, chief mechanic. Well, how so. Where is he now in the Almaz-Antey report ???

        Well, the apogee: Another resonant “version” was voiced by the odious Kremlin propagandist Mikhail Leontyev. In November’s Channel One program on 14, he announced that he had at his disposal a “sensational shot,” allegedly taken by a foreign spy satellite in the last seconds of the Malaysian Boeing 777’s flight over Ukraine. This photo, according to Leontyev, confirmed that the Boeing was shot down by the MiG-29 fighter jet pursuing it.

        http://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824

        In my opinion there is enough evidence. Both the Moscow Region and our government have long since compromised themselves so much that the Almaz-Antey report is somehow no longer comme il faut ... Previously, we had to think ... crying
        1. +4
          14 October 2015 11: 47
          Quote: Falcon
          You are an intelligent person, how much can you believe in propaganda?

          Thanks for the "smart" hi New propaganda I do not believe.

          When the family informed me about the shoot-down, I was "in the field", I myself did not hear, but I explained to them on the phone (with the mothers). They still remember, I was not mistaken.
          Quote: Falcon
          SU-25

          in the summer with all my friends ... re-pressured, maybe, even vaf fiddled with the PM
          "Well, I do not agree."
          As for MIG, SU or SAM, it was possible to determine the name of the corpses or soft parts of the liner in a day.
          The striking element is a type of weapon. All.
          All the insinuations of the Investigative Committee, the Prosecutor's Office, the first channel are not interesting to me there.
          I don’t believe Leontiev at all (and did not). Well, can you believe the person who works at Rosneft on such a good salary?
          Quote: Falcon
          Both the Moscow Region and our government have long since compromised themselves so much that the Almaz-Antey report is somehow no longer comme il faut ...

          and MO and the government gave only versions.
          No one has approved (report) 100%.
          Stupid RSI report, I did not even read it completely.
          Fake satellite photography - caused a laugh.
          ====================================================================== ================
          Let's think so.
          1. Suppose this was a provocation (special operation) of ours.
          So blasphemous, at the level of Dr. Goebels, or worse.
          2. Objective: to discredit Ukraine, the United States and part of Europe, which supplied weapons to the Armed Forces of Ukraine and supported everything.
          3. Means to an end: terrorist attack.
          Let's say a passenger airliner was shot down over Ukraine, pretending that the Ukrainian Armed Forces did it.
          4. Object of manipulation: well, in my opinion there should be a Russian airliner.
          It’s simpler (it’s also possible to put a destructible radio transponder, and this is necessary, because the movements are intense there), course, level and so on (all this is obtained in real time and simplifies the knowledge base), then it’s easier to hide what happened.
          A terrorist attack with our airliner would have already been No. 2 on the "conscience" of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. That would make it possible to completely close the issue with the Crimea and send troops to the DPR or LPR, or force the Armed Forces of Ukraine to peace.
          And no one in the West and "blather", well, Psaki except.
          It's cruel, I don’t think so, it's just a version
          but what do we really have?
          Boeing of Malaysia with passengers of the Netherlands.
          Meaning?
          very little.
          It’s silly to drag 1SUO into the territory (the task of shooting down isn’t trivial due to the specifics of the operation of the SSS, but it’s as if by itself, and its radar data are used, new SAM, as a rule. The vertical angles are there)
          Shoot down the beech air defense system after yelling that they captured ..
          Well, as it is not reasonable.
          In general, there are many such indirect arguments.
          But if you already decided (damn it, how to be a leak in our time), then it should be enough to do the brains NORMALLY.
          but here it’s not very.
          Still embarrassing. When starting from Snezhny: within a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.
          It would be enough time to shoot (for all mobile phones).
          But where the full-time part is deployed, with all its attendants, it’s difficult, but possible.
          But this level of cover cannot be provided not by militias, nor terrorists, nor mythical advisers of the RF Armed Forces
          1. +1
            14 October 2015 11: 49
            ================================================== =======
            but if it was a special operation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, everything agrees. And the behavior of many (both in Ukraine and beyond) converges. And all this is beneficial to them (this is what history has shown). And it’s done in the same way as the entire ATO.
            And the fact that our media and other throats (like Leontyev) gave out different versions, like hot cakes: it’s understandable
            1. Propaganda, fighting spirit
            2.not knowledge of physics, geometry, IEE at the level of grade 10
            3.Rating and denyuzhka for rating
            well, etc ... uff tired of writing
            1. 0
              14 October 2015 12: 28
              Quote: opus
              but if it was a special operation of the APU, it all fits together.


              Nothing converges. As you know, we see straws in the eyes of others, we do not notice logs in our own eyes.

              Quote: opus
              1. Suppose this was a provocation (special operation) of ours.
              So blasphemous, at the level of Dr. Goebels, or worse.
              2. Objective: to discredit Ukraine, the United States and part of Europe, which supplied weapons to the Armed Forces of Ukraine and supported everything.
              3. Means to an end: terrorist attack.
              Let's say a passenger airliner was shot down over Ukraine, pretending that the Ukrainian Armed Forces did it.
              4. Object of manipulation: well, in my opinion there should be a Russian airliner.
              It’s simpler (it’s also possible to put a destructible radio transponder, and this is necessary, because the movements are intense there), course, level and so on (all this is obtained in real time and simplifies the knowledge base), then it’s easier to hide what happened.
              A terrorist attack with our airliner would have already been No. 2 on the "conscience" of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. That would make it possible to completely close the issue with the Crimea and send troops to the DPR or LPR, or force the Armed Forces of Ukraine to peace.
              And no one in the West and "blather", well, Psaki except.


              We expropriate this to the situation with Ukraine. Same:

              Quote: opus
              It's cruel, I don’t think so, it's just a version


              Those. we cannot, but they can !?
              Not really, without Boeing, and so stinks are enough: annexation, intervention, etc.

              And the West will not approve - there the value of human life is much higher ..

              Quote: opus
              Still embarrassing. When starting from Snezhny: within a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.
              It would be enough time to shoot (for all mobile phones).


              Photo see

              But what about Zaroschenskoe?
              Quote: opus
              When starting from ******: in a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.
              It would be enough time to shoot (for all mobile phones).


              Where???
              1. +1
                14 October 2015 12: 52
                Quote: Falcon
                Those. we cannot, but they can !?

                and we can and they.
                But it is very difficult for us to do this on the territory of the DPR, LPR.
                It is easier for them to carry out from the ATO control zone adjacent to the territory of the militias, and at times.
                Quote: Falcon
                But what about Zaroschenskoe?

                What is the control of the ATO military group (let’s be correct for all APUs) and the launch from there and the launch from the territory where 2-3000 militants hang out?
                Militias and regime will not be able to provide
                And with Zarechenky, when the APU arrived, everyone fled (they had where)
                Quote: Falcon
                Where???

                Something I remember about this photo.
                but not convincing. Checked
                1.not such weather was over Snezhny. Cloud cover.
                2. A rather high-quality shot and lack of video are alarming, time was
                3. Well this photo appeared very late.
                I am not a fake exposer and I don’t know those places.
                Let the "experts" analyze this photo.

                (purely my opinion is a volley of shell)
          2. +1
            14 October 2015 12: 10
            Quote: opus
            and MO and the government gave only versions.
            No one has approved (report) 100%.


            I agree, version.

            But here, as it were, the Su-25 was either on the radar, or was not. And he rose to the height of a possible launch, or not. Or do they want to say that the Su-25 was up, but launched a rocket or not, they don’t know?

            But what about the main witness:


            No one refutes his presence and testimony.

            Quote: opus
            So blasphemous, at the level of Dr. Goebels, or worse.

            Quote: opus
            It's cruel, I don’t think so, it's just a version


            Tough, and it won’t work. The result is not in our favor. The whole west cannot be outweighed by arguments.

            Quote: opus
            Shoot down the beech air defense system after yelling that they captured ..
            Well, as it is not reasonable.


            Why not? No one was aiming at the Boeing. Prior to this incident, 3 aircraft, Il-76 An-30 An-26, were shot down.

            They felt the strength, they took it for a transport worker - a calculation from the militia ... Well, maybe our "consultant". His competence is also questionable, he dealt with some officers ... It would be better if the yard was shallow than wearing shoulder straps.

            Quote: opus
            Still embarrassing. When starting from Snezhny: within a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.


            1. 0
              14 October 2015 13: 00
              Quote: Falcon
              But here, as it were, either the Su-25 was on radar, or was not.

              was very likely.
              About "climbed" -10 km -no (OA MO did not say that, there is a different echelon)
              RVV launch from the satellite is not detected
              Quote: Falcon
              But what about the main witness:

              This witness says that RVV was before take-off, but it was not at landing.

              Quote: Falcon
              Tough, and it won’t work.

              no. if it was done, as I said (well, or so it was intended), it would work 100%.
              But I hope such a wonderful thought did not arise.
              This is not a bag of powder that looks like RDX in the entrance of a house.
              Quote: Falcon
              Why not? No one was aiming at the Boeing.

              Well, if there was ONE OMS, for some reason. There sat a first-class combat crew.
              Boeing from Il or en, and even on the echelon, which is led by the dispatcher of Ukraine and is ready to pick up the dispatcher of Russia ..
              Could distinguish.
              believe me.
              If they did OTs, were escorted, pointed, the automation gave the green light ... then they knew why they shot.
              Quote: Falcon
              calculation of militias ...

              this is not serious.
              the calculation of the militias will not even be able to prepare the MSA for shooting, even if there is a consultant.
              Quote: Falcon
              dealt with some officers ..

              Well, in the air defense units (now it is the airborne forces) it is still not so bad.
              In 2007, I would agree.
              In 2014, it doesn’t.
              1. 0
                14 October 2015 15: 30
                Quote: opus
                About "climbed" -10 km -no (OA MO did not say that, there is a different echelon)


                not on 10, of course, they drew graphics there, they say he did a slide.

                Quote: opus
                Well, if there was ONE OMS, for some reason. There sat a first-class combat crew.


                We took part of the air defense systems with beech complexes
                http://www.novoross.info/politiks/27437-u-doneckih-opolchencev-poyavilis-zenitno
                -raketnye-kompleksy-buk.html

                Quote: opus
                Could distinguish.
                believe me.
                If they did OTs, were escorted, pointed, the automation gave the green light ... then they knew why they shot.


                Ukrainians also could not distinguish Tu-154. Qualification issue.

                Quote: opus
                this is not serious.
                the calculation of the militias will not even be able to prepare the MSA for shooting, even if there is a consultant.


                Well Duc and the marginal version of a provocatively downed Boeing can not be.
                Is it a theory that on the other side are all the marginalized, fascists and Bendera, and here are the holy fighters for truth and world peace? This seems even less convincing.

                Quote: opus
                Well, if there was ONE OMS, for some reason. There sat a first-class combat crew.


                Or shitty that missed ...
                1. +1
                  14 October 2015 15: 57
                  Quote: Falcon
                  We took part of the air defense systems with beech complexes

                  The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine officially denied this and stands its ground.
                  Everything was exported, before

                  Quote: Falcon
                  Ukrainians also could not distinguish Tu-154. Qualification issue.

                  no, there are S-200 air defense systems.
                  Everything is different there. ROC and toggle switch, pokuizm, generals in position.
                  At 154 they were not directed.
                  Well, the years there are completely different
                  Quote: Falcon
                  Or shitty that missed ...

                  on BUK, if "reduced", it is difficult to miss. especially, if he maneuvers completely and at an echelon of 10000 m, at a speed of 800 km / h.

                  No shot specifically at this Boeing (there is a very heavy traffic)

                  ================================================== ===============
                  I think the truth will come up. And I do not think that I will have to blush for my country.
            2. 0
              14 October 2015 14: 37
              "Presumably Su-25" was on radar - watch and listen to the briefing of the Ministry of Defense.
              Boeing has holes from its 30mm cannon. The shelling was carried out mainly from "17:25" at the same altitude at which the Boeing was. It can climb such a Su-25, moreover, it has a maximum speed there. See the German Su-12000TK Wikipedia (25) for the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the UkrOboronService website for the Su-7000 simply (10000-XNUMX) intended for sale in Papuan.

              Before the Boeing was shot down, another 40 aircraft passed this square within 3 minutes. Why was only this one painted in such strange colors that are visible only nearby?
              "They mistook for a transporter" - not a poop, there is a device on the Buki that shows whether there is a civilian transponder on the plane or not.
              Could the truth be taken with the Su-25 for something else, or build a calculation on the fact that the pilot supposedly accidentally did not tolerate, and then, if necessary, otmazyvatsya ...
        2. 0
          14 October 2015 11: 54
          If you were an intelligent person, then you would understand that according to reports a large plane similar to the An-26 crashed from the ground, that's why they reported ... The militias do not have air defense control centers of the country.
          The little ones usually fell Su-25. Both were decentralized and knocked down by the militias and did not fall by themselves. So, if it fell, it was shot down by the militia ... If it was a two-engine gun and a big one, then it was An-26. No one could have thought that the Ukrainian Armed Forces would knock their own or even a "neutral" twin-engine airliner (similar to the An-26).
          Then when we arrived at the place and began to sort out what had fallen - the opinion of what had happened, and therefore the blog, was changed. A loan on the site incorrect information, and even such?

          The version of the General Staff (more precisely questions) is correct. The Boeing has holes from a 30mm gun.
          then there was such a movie
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g
          13-15 minutes
          shrapnel from beech is less than three times less and leaves no such holes.

          Questions to Churkin if he suddenly there by reference recognized something indirectly.

          Questions to Leontyev, who was squint at this moment, why (and under whose hypnosis) he goes on the air with similar "satellite" images, where the scale of the fields below and of both aircraft does not match.
          By the way, actually, are you busy here?
      3. 0
        12 July 2017 01: 56
        Opus, why are you crucifying before him. You just have a look at this https://topwar.ru/index.php?do=lastcomments&u
        serid = 144600
        Reminds resentful representative of an ancient profession. This is one of those who live by the principle of "spite frost mom ears"
    3. 0
      12 July 2017 01: 51
      Specially registered to make vyser? Well done. It is counted. And now, jump, jump and jump again, so that the commission from the camp w ****** throws something else. You can see the clowns right away. Always like you wanted to ask, but do you even know your native language?
  39. -5
    13 October 2015 17: 12
    Tell me why the An-26 14 July military transport aircraft was shot down.
    1. +2
      13 October 2015 18: 00
      Quote: orskpdc
      Tell me why the An-26 14 July military transport aircraft was shot down.

      Maybe you all at once? with trains?


      Your an-26

      see from 5 seconds

      Ask the pilots:
      Four were picked up by the Ukrainian Armed Forces rescue team, two (commander and right pilot) were killed, and one was taken prisoner by Lugansk militias. Another crew member was saved on 19.07/02.09. Pilot Sergey Mordvinov was handed over by the militias to the Ukrainian side during the exchange of prisoners of war on XNUMX.

      1. Do you see missiles from Buk?
      2.About 6500m -sure (Lyaps APU)?
      You met a parachute dump of cargo from a height of 6500 meters
      1. -3
        13 October 2015 18: 10
        Quote: opus
        Maybe you all at once? with trains?

        Immediately obvious specialist, posted a video from a computer game-super goodAh young man slammed a minus, but left his video from the game laughing Pretty boy lol
        1. 0
          13 October 2015 18: 28
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Immediately obvious specialist laid out

          Yes?
          Can show the original "video"
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          from a computer game super
          Lock On Modern Air Combat - Gameplay (PC)

          or something else that you mean by "super-computer game"
          And compare?

          ?
          One stupid vyaknul, many "clever" and repeat ... After all, trending (there is more capacious, only I will get a ban again) is not to roll bags.
  40. +1
    13 October 2015 17: 44
    I don’t know what about BEECH, I live 10 kilometers from the fall of a Boeing. So, literally 20 seconds after getting into a Boeing, a fighter passed over the village towards Debaltseve, and the village is called Red Kut
    1. 0
      13 October 2015 18: 43
      Yes, you, or a "golden" witness, if you observed events with such a time characteristic, or a provocateur, or a dude! Maybe then specify at what time and in what place the "hit" occurred? And then the experts, and according to the dispatchers, everything is approximately - the connection was interrupted at about 14.15:XNUMX, and you have data up to ten seconds!
  41. +2
    13 October 2015 17: 46
    Quote: Author Volodin Alexey
    However, the Dutch experts decided not to go to the logical end and announced that they "do not know exactly where the missile was fired at the Boeing."

    Not certainly in that way.

    In general, the report is decent.
    I got pinned: a couple of times suddenly appearing subtitles in Ukrainian.
    Yes, the Dutch are trying to whitewash Ukraine.
    but the work is great.
    In general, the data agree with Almaz Antey.

    Starting area 320 sq.km.
    1. 0
      13 October 2015 19: 07
      Starting area 320 sq.km.

      It is approximately 4 thousand square km.
      1. 0
        13 October 2015 19: 20
        Quote: figter
        It is approximately 4 thousand square km.

        4000?
        a lot of something.
        the whole Dronetsk region is about 26000 sq. km., what is 1/6 of the launch zone?


        In the North Kazakhstan region there are more than 3500 lakes with a water mirror area of ​​more than 4000 kmXNUMX.
        1. 0
          13 October 2015 20: 25
          The affected area of ​​the Buk air defense missile system is 35 km. The launch area exceeds the affected area depending on the target's speed. The launch is carried out 3 seconds before the target approaches the affected area, approximately somewhere in the middle of 37-38 km.
          37х37х3,14 = 4298,66 sq. Km
          1. 0
            13 October 2015 22: 36
            Quote: figter
            The affected area of ​​the Buk air defense missile system is 35 km

            what are you confusing.

            from 3 to 35 km.
            What do you mean by air defense systems?
            SOU one or SPComplex?
            The composition of the SAM systems includes:
            • command post (KP);
            • radar target detection (SOC);
            • up to six self-propelled firing systems (SOU);
            • up to six starting-charging installations (ROM);
            • anti-aircraft guided missiles.

            The distance between the vehicles of the SDA complex can reach 10 km ... the main thing is that the SAM would not be placed above 3000m above sea level.

            Quote: figter
            The launch area exceeds the affected area depending on the speed of the target.

            unknown parameter.
            ZP.
            How's that?
            Start-up is generally determined by automation: target range, speed (azimuthal, radial), altitude, maneuverability

            Quote: figter
            Start up in 3 seconds before the target approaches the affected area, approximately somewhere on average 37-38 km.

            hic ... belay

            Aiming a rocket at a target begins with an azimuthal turn of the guides of the launcher in the direction of the target. Since the complex adopted the combined method of guiding the rocket — inertial guidance with radio correction at the initial guidance site and semi-active homing at the final site of the trajectory, then after launch for about 24 seconds the rocket is independently controlled. Control is provided by the introduction of the so-called "pseudo-kinematic link" into the GOS, in fact a simplified inertial control system. For effective guidance of air defense systems at maneuvering targets in this area, radio path correction is used.

            On the basis of data on the characteristics of the target and missiles issued by radar systems of air defense systems and starting automation equipment, the anticipated missile meeting point is determined for the purpose at which the launch guide with the missile is guided.

            In the "ZV" mode without the use of radar RGS capture command is issued at 2 seconds of flight in the presence of the command "NEAR ZONE" ("BLZ") or at 4 seconds in the absence of the BLZ command. This mode is the only one when shooting from ROM.

            3 seconds you took from here:
            “SELF-ELIMINATION” (issued to undermine a warhead and eliminate a missile in case of a miss or missed homing and lack of interception on the trajectory during (3 ± 1) with the presence of the team “FAR RECEPTION” (+27 V).

            Quote: figter
            4298,66 sq km

            Not so considered holandzhtsy, not so thought in the diamond-anty.
            you need to "go" from the Boeing, down to the ground, and this is how the launch zone is 320 sq. km
            1. 0
              14 October 2015 00: 28
              I don't need these performance charts and so on. I know all this in practice. The start-up of the Buk air defense missile system is determined by the automatic system - the "Start permission" display is displayed. It gives permission to launch a rocket after taking a target for auto-tracking three seconds before the target enters the affected area. The affected area is calculated by the DCS of the SOU, its far and near borders, the lead point are highlighted on the sector view indicator. And believe me, I am not confusing anything. I see no reason to quote extracts downloaded from the Internet to me, if I have gone through all this in practice. What and how is controlled and where what commands are given, I know quite well. I won't even bother reading this. I myself can write such books.
              Not so considered holandzhtsy, not so thought in the diamond-anty.
              you need to "go" from the Boeing, down to the ground, and this is how the launch zone is 320 sq. km

              The affected area is counted from the sow to the target. And not otherwise. What strikes you is what defines the zone. In addition, as the golans believed, and even more so - Antey is absolutely not a level and not a dogma. Lyapov that some, that the other - abound.
              1. 0
                14 October 2015 01: 59
                Quote: figter
                I have these tables TTX

                You just seem to be confusing: the calculated launch zone of the missile defense system (a certain area on the surface of the earth, from where the missile system that hit the Boeing could have been launched) with the zone (the affected area: the LA interception point of this missile system) in which the missile system could intercept the Boeing.

                I don’t know what you are there in practice, but if you accept
                Quote: figter
                37х37х3,14 = 4298,66 sq. Km
                then calmly assume that they were shooting from the Rostov region (what if there is a nafig dispute between AA / AA and the Dutchmen about Zaroshchenskoye and Snezhnoye - take further)


                Quote: figter
                I see no reason to quote me excerpts downloaded from the Internet,

                This is from here:

                I will disappoint, did not "swing"
                Quote: figter
                Antey is absolutely not a level and not a dogma

                Possible.
                But they make products, conduct launches, in tch and combat.
                I will believe them more than "practitioners"
                1. 0
                  14 October 2015 09: 15
                  opus (6) RU Today, 01: 59
                  Quote: figter
                  I have these tables TTX
                  You just seem to be confusing: the calculated launch zone of the missile defense system (a certain area on the surface of the earth, from where the missile system that hit the Boeing could have been launched) with the zone (the affected area: the LA interception point of this missile system) in which the missile system could intercept the Boeing.

                  Do you even understand the difference between distance and area? What does the Rostov region? If the distance from the launch site to the Rostov region is less than 35 km, then the zone of destruction and launch also covers it.
                  Possible.
                  But they make products, conduct launches, in tch and combat.
                  I will believe them more than "practitioners"

                  The content of such "manuals" does not always coincide with reality. They are written by "cabinet-parquet" experts, far from iron. And they do nothing in this case (SAM "Buk"). Everything was done before them in the USSR. They personally do not conduct combat launches, they are not included in the calculation either, they only look from the outside. Many points that are described in such "works" in practice are performed in a completely different way. Theory does not always coincide with practice.
                  1. 0
                    14 October 2015 10: 47
                    opus
                    then calmly assume that they were shooting from the Rostov region (what if there is a nafig dispute between AA / AA and the Dutchmen about Zaroshchenskoye and Snezhnoye - take further)

                    If you are so scrupulous about "zones and squares" and are trying to understand the issue under discussion, tell me, what was the launch range to the target from both positions - the Snezhnoe joint venture and the launching position of the Armed Forces, and what directional parameter did the plane have for each position? Maybe in your "smart" books they will be able to explain to you what it is and what it is eaten with. And then you show me some childish basics, quote what I touched with my hands. I'm not interested in this. Calculate and analyze, you trust the "theoreticians"! If you answer me this question with an analysis regarding the defeat of this particular Boeing-777, then we will continue our conversation. If not, then learn from your Talmuds further. Only you first figure out which SAM it is written for: "Buk", "Buk-M1" or "Buk M1-2". Please note that they differ not only in alphanumeric designation. I don't think the "writer" knows this either.
                    1. 0
                      14 October 2015 11: 21
                      Quote: figter
                      If you answer me this question with an analysis regarding the defeat of this particular Boeing-777, then we will continue

                      1. Well, I'm not on the exam, so I don't have to
                      2.Although the discussion is interesting to me, but the tone ..
                      You know, I remind me of the ever-depressed Americans, with whom I bark (at work) constantly.
                      3. About Talmuds .. I'm already late. Little remains.
                      But air defense is my VUS, even though it is already in stock.
                      and this is not a talmud, but a study guide. it is written for a specific complex and 2 types of missiles.
                      But that is not the point.
                      Quote: figter
                      Do you even understand the difference between distance and area?

                      Well, the stump is clear. What are we talking about?
                      You seem to have beguiled
                      because according to your "calculations" the launch zone in
                      Quote: figter
                      It is approximately 4 thousand square km.

                      4000 sq. Km possible launch area,location zone ONE only OMS BEECH, for this particular case .. nonsense
                      1. 0
                        14 October 2015 14: 07
                        opus
                        1. Well, I'm not on the exam, so I don't have to
                        2.Although the discussion is interesting to me, but the tone ..
                        You know, I remind me of the ever-depressed Americans, with whom I bark (at work) constantly.
                        3. About Talmuds .. I'm already late. Little remains.
                        But air defense is my VUS, even though it is already in stock.
                        and this is not a talmud, but a study guide. it is written for a specific complex and 2 types of missiles.
                        But that is not the point.
                        4000kv.km possible start-up zone, the zone of finding ONE only SUO BEECH, for this particular case .. nonsense

                        Well, agreed, change the tone.
                        The launching zone is geometrically a circle, because the starting device rotates. The area of ​​the circle is the radius (in km.) In the frame for the number of PI. Calculations I cited above. The area is calculated on the basis of one SLA (and not an SLA, if you have an anti-aircraft defense system), since in this case it is useless and pointless to calculate the zone of damage or launch of the entire air defense system — the launch was made by one machine and one rocket (based on the available data). At least for this you need to know the exact location of each of the six SDA divisions and it certainly will not have the shape of a circle.
                        But this is all lyrics. Anthea's report did not convince me personally, I expected something completely different. In my opinion, the evidence cannot in any way consist mainly of data on the angles of flight of the striking parts. This is not the main thing. It is possible that not all the details have been spilled out in order to prevent a subsequent adjustment of the foreign investigation.
                      2. 0
                        14 October 2015 15: 40
                        Quote: figter
                        The launch zone is geometrically a circle, because the launch device rotates.

                        No.
                        With regard to this Boeing (the nature of the BE defeat, the calculated "meeting point", etc.) is not a circle.
                        The circle is generally ...
                        for any purpose, if it’s not a balloon, it will not be hanging in place of a circle

                        Quote: figter
                        I cited the calculations above. The area is calculated from the calculation of one SDA (and not the LMS

                        I do not agree with them. Do I have to write a refutation?
                        СУО, СОУ- Do not pay attention - a housekeeping chip.
                        It’s easier for me to operate PU. so I won’t write
                        Quote: figter
                        because in this case, calculate the area of ​​destruction or launch of the entire SAM

                        According to Ukraine, militias with one "imported" launcher
                        According to some of our (MO), the entire complex of air defense systems (or not 1n) attached to the 1st battalion of the 95th separate airmobile brigade of the Armed forces of Ukraine worked
                        separate anti-aircraft missile battalion, military unit A0973, consisting of 95aeb.
                        And about the fact that 1 shot at PU, and not 2 or 6 ....
                        We only know that 1on the missiles hit the Boeing

                        The affected area (interception) is calculated if the coordinates of the PU are known.
                        In this case, they "dance" from the opposite.
                        from Boeing.
                        And then it’s a pitchfork on the water: the radar did not record the downing of the liner (the beginning of defragmentation), neither the flight of missiles, nor the missiles.
                        Everyone dances from the place where the debris, train, speed fell (these are already assumptions, assumptions have gone), go to the coordinates of the interception point (all presumably)
                        Everything is approximately: V of the target is not known, the weather is not exactly known (wind, humidity, temperature), the wind along the trajectory of the fall is the same and so on.
                        And from the top (supposed interception point) "go" to the PU location.
                        Well, 4000 sq. km will not work either.
                        Quote: figter
                        Anthea's report did not convince me personally, I expected something completely different.

                        he is not bad.
                        One experiment is worth it.
                        But.
                        Undermining occurred at the target, which is worth, SAM, that is the same.
                        Yes, I understand they went from PE inlet-outlet holes, but again there are a lot of assumptions. Next is the mathematical model and simulation.
                        I think that is not unfounded.
                        AA, when he designs a missile system, it uses all this.
                        But still, the evidence is more serious than that of the Dutch on a single layout.
                        The experiment is seriously prepared
                        Quote: figter
                        preventing further adjustments to foreign investigations.

                        This is politics.
                        I don’t really believe the Dutch.
                        They have had corpses for a long time, there is a PE, the type of ammunition is easy to calculate (no need to show "holes")
                      3. +1
                        14 October 2015 17: 11
                        I will not give your quotes. I do not like to do it.
                        Let's omit the whole argument. I agree with you that all calculations must be carried out only from the place of the proposed launch, but not from the other side. This is utopia. Who, for example, will give a guarantee that the heading parameter of the aircraft relative to the SOU generally allowed it to start and the vehicle's TsVS gave permission for this. The target could be located in the estimated destruction zone according to the performance characteristics, but not in the parameters for the launch. I had a moment at the SDU, when I stood on alert among the hills. The ray captured the top of the hill for escort and began to walk, pulling the PU in different directions. And at some point he went vertically down. TsVS recognized this as a ballistic missile target. The far border of the affected area began to move towards the near one, and the imaginary mark from the target quickly approached and reached a range of 10 km. But the system did not give permission to launch. This is just an example. I am confused by the phrase about the 40th second of the flight, which sounded in the Anthea report. In fact, this is the end of the rocket. Considering that the Boeing's movement is straightforward and even, the missile did not maneuver and moved almost in a straight line to the anticipated meeting point with the target. It is not so difficult to calculate the speed of a rocket at various stages of flight. Hence, the range to the target with some error. But in fact, nowhere is there a diagram of the plane's flight path (in other words, target wiring), indicating the location of the plane at the time of launch, direction of movement, speed. And this is the main thing. There are some sketches with the moment of defeat, but this is absolutely not what you need. I agree that it will be difficult to calculate it. And rather, the difficulty will not even be in technical terms, but rather the unwillingness of someone to take on such responsibility. I agree with you that this is pure politics. Namely, it is with such a scheme that you need to start your proofs. All the rest to tie and link with it. Then everything will be ironclad.
                      4. 0
                        14 October 2015 18: 07
                        Quote: figter
                        I had a moment at the JMA,

                        cool. and the underlying and non-visibility of the goal did not give the idea of ​​the on-board computer, that on the command post - "reset", because the situation is clearly not the same?
                        Or only one self-propelled gun worked, out of the lineup?
                        By the way, the question is: does the SOU have the same launch angle?
                        or trying beyond the line of sight of the target, with restrictions on the descent of course.
                        In general, radar sow, because of their performance characteristics and concurrence with Pu is such a mysterious thing.
                        Beam too narrow
                        Quote: figter
                        second of flight, sounded in the report "Anthea"

                        and the Dutch liked it, how they calculated the speeds of the striking elements and the entry angles from the records (squeaks) of 3 (or more) microphones in the cockpit.
                      5. 0
                        14 October 2015 19: 07
                        opus
                        cool. and the underlying and non-visibility of the goal did not give the idea of ​​the on-board computer, that on the command post - "reset", because the situation is clearly not the same?

                        Ha! I took the mop to escort myself, without a team. But we worked with the CP 9C470М1 in a pair, worked out the interaction. So often did, at the same time trained. He, too, was shown on the scoreboard by the BR, since the SPD gave all my information to him. It was ridiculous to hear his reaction on the radio station, he was in shock until I did a reset. His situation is reflected with analysis, something terrible he saw there. Honestly, I also felt uneasy, feeling my helplessness in ballistics.
                        Does the sow start angle the same?

                        Accompany the target by the corner of the place.
                        In general, radar sow, because of their performance characteristics and concurrence with Pu is such a mysterious thing.

                        A very normal thing. In manual control of the rotation, the launcher can be turned in any direction, simultaneously making an overview. This is if there is one left. And so, in general, work is carried out everywhere in the sector, regardless of the way the machine is viewed. For the SDU, 120 degrees is quite enough. There are two of them in the battery. One is supposed to work in the "Bottom" zone, the other "Top". But in practice, each machine works in its own sector with overlap with the other. Moreover, the detection is sufficient at all altitudes. The most relish in it is the mode of operation of the SOI. Few people worked in it, but in vain. The most anti-jamming mode. I don't think that even modern jammers will drown it out. Therefore, SOU 9A310M1 is still relevant today. The main thing is to move tactically, and not to catch birds.
                      6. 0
                        14 October 2015 21: 49
                        Yes, that's just for some reason they took the weekend 30mm cannon holes for the input from the 8,4mm shrapnel warhead SAM and "push off" from
                        of this. I-beams in general, as befits a razor, make more cuts in airplane aluminum.
  42. 0
    13 October 2015 17: 48
    Quote: reservist
    and personally saw the trace of the rocket?

    it would be more correct to write
    Quote: kostavit
    Мы everything, daughters of officersliving near Snow know ...

    I was an officer as an Afghan, and now I’m standing here so that the Nazis don’t go to Russia. You should drink beer near the computer, read at least how we stood under Kandahar.
    1. 0
      13 October 2015 18: 22
      I don’t drink beer at the computer for a very long time (well, in this century for sure ...)
      the question of whether they personally saw the launch of a beech rocket did not answer ...
    2. 0
      14 October 2015 02: 07
      Quote: kostavit
      and now I'm standing here

      Where?

      Plus you, so as not to fall at all.

      Where are we standing, warrior?
  43. 0
    13 October 2015 18: 31
    First of all, these results need to be provided to the Malaysian people. In order to show the results and conclusions on local channels in detail with the video, as it seems that they don’t care what happened to the plane.
  44. +2
    13 October 2015 18: 36
    Ukrainians as always overpowered ...
  45. 0
    13 October 2015 19: 29
    As a person far from military affairs, I’ll nevertheless ask: why not just collect all the striking elements found in the remains of the liner structures and the bodies of the victims (and there should be a lot of them), pour them on the table in front of journalists and experts from different countries and warring parties , and on these elements to establish the type of missile and its warheads. After all, this could be done the day after the crash, since everyone was so hungry for the truth.
  46. 0
    13 October 2015 19: 44
    All this is certainly good, but the trouble is that in the same Republic of Belarus, look at what kind of bacchanalia Russophobian is on the forums.
    http://talks.by/showthread.php?t=14254522&page=2
    http://talks.by/showthread.php?t=14254492&p=29427427&posted=1#post29427427
    They really don't need it.
  47. +1
    13 October 2015 20: 25
    "Chairman of the Netherlands Security Council):
    Additional forensic investigations will be required to determine the launch site. Such an investigation is outside the purview of the Netherlands Security Council. "
    Did the Netherlands really not understand the essence of the matter from the very beginning of the investigation? Did it really take a year to fool the whole world in order to officially make such a statement?
    Explicit hypocrisy in officialdom!
  48. 0
    13 October 2015 20: 27
    This is a monstrous provocation! Emphasis of the Americans, they always make some sort of mess under their dirty tricks!
    I don’t know what they specifically wanted to stir up, but the persecution of Russia after this incident began hellishly! Well, and if I'm not mistaken, sanctions were imposed soon.
  49. 0
    13 October 2015 20: 32
    In ovs, as in the eastern market, the one who screams louder is right.
    It doesn't matter what kind of experiments there are. And it doesn’t matter how it really was.
    It is important that they write newspapers and show on TV.
    1. win
      +2
      16 October 2015 10: 28
      As in the eastern market - the one who is right screams louder.

      If it were possible to build houses with a cry, then the donkey would be a great builder.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  50. 0
    13 October 2015 20: 39
    Quote: reservist
    I don’t drink beer at the computer for a very long time (well, in this century for sure ...)
    the question of whether they personally saw the launch of a beech rocket did not answer ...

    And where are the "stale corpses"? Where are the "eyewitnesses of the attack aircraft"? Where is Captain Voloshin?
    Who will be responsible for all this lie?
    1. win
      +2
      15 October 2015 16: 28
      And where are the "stale corpses"? Where are the "eyewitnesses of the attack aircraft"? Where is Captain Voloshin?

      the Federal Air Transport Agency does not even claim that the flight MH-17 was shot down precisely by the Buk air defense system. And then it would be nice to look again at the version that the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation was actively developing. Indeed, the SC has at its disposal indications that on the day of the disaster, the Su-25 of the Ukrainian Air Force returned with its spent ammunition to the airfield. This plane was piloted by a certain captain Voloshin, who after landing stated that the Malaysian Boeing-777 was at the wrong time and in the wrong place.
  51. +1
    13 October 2015 20: 44
    And who would want to be labeled as a killer of almost 3 hundred people? They will fight until the end and no one will admit it, ever
  52. 0
    13 October 2015 21: 01
    From the official message from the Dutch:
    "Several fragments not related to the plane itself were found among the wreckage of the aircraft. Paint samples were taken from two fragments. They matched paint samples taken from = rocket fragments found among the wreckage =."
    How, knowing the detonation point of the rocket head, can pieces of the rocket with color get inside the plane (most likely pieces of the rocket's empennage got inside the cockpit) and not be determined by "experts", at least roughly, the direction of the rocket's flight to the direction of the plane's flight?
  53. The comment was deleted.
  54. 0
    13 October 2015 21: 12
    Quote: orskpdc
    Tell me why the An-26 14 July military transport aircraft was shot down.

    The presence of the Osa, Strela, and Igla complexes in the DPR/LPR is not denied. Beech is denied.
    1. kig
      0
      16 October 2015 15: 46
      For some reason, no one bothered to check if there was any debris in the area where the AN-26 was shot down. And if so, do they belong specifically to the AN-26?
  55. +1
    13 October 2015 21: 13
    The West is tense...

    I think that they will still insist on their version of the MH17 disaster.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. win
      +2
      15 October 2015 16: 32
      I think they will still insist on their version of the MH17 disaster

      But another option is also possible: the anti-aircraft missile was aimed at the Su-25, but when it dodged, it retargeted the MH-17, which really ended up in the wrong place... But no one even considered this option.
      1. 0
        16 October 2015 03: 28
        The Su-25 does not operate on the ground from such a height (unless in the highlands), and how does this option explain the presence of 30mm holes on the Boeing? Beech shrapnel is 2-3 times smaller.
  56. win
    +2
    13 October 2015 22: 01
    All Boeing aircraft continuously monitor the condition of their engines. And telemetry is transmitted directly to Boeing via satellite communications. All engine parameters during flight are known. But will the Americans give a report on the operation of the engines?
  57. 0
    13 October 2015 23: 28
    The fact that photos from YouTube are more convincing for the West than satellite images is understandable. But the Russians came up with some other laws of physics and mathematics, obviously to set up our brothers, the smaller crests.
  58. 0
    13 October 2015 23: 35
    RIA Novosti cites a fragment of a statement from the representative of the expert group, Tibi Justra (Chairman of the Security Council of the Netherlands):
    An additional forensic investigation will be required to determine the launch site. Such an investigation is beyond the competence of the Netherlands Security Council.


    Enough of the embarrassment already. And so they (the Dutch Security Council) have already made themselves look like fools. For more than a year, my tits were crushed. And they issued HZCH. One would like to say that the investigation was carried out by the Council of Blockheads of the Netherlands. There are no more words.
  59. +1
    14 October 2015 01: 09
    I looked at the Dutch report. I have to admit that he is consistent, logical and without emotions. I watched the diamond-antea experiment. It’s clear, but there are a lot of questions that only a specialist can answer. For example, why does the explosion occur at exactly the point as shown and at such an angle. As far as I know, both the angle and location of the detonation can be different and are a probabilistic, not an exact parameter. It is alleged that when the Boeing was hit, an outdated missile with cubic destructive elements was used.
    The Dutch showed both rectangular and I-beam striking elements. At the same time, they recalled that before the disaster, the militia began to shoot down planes at altitudes inaccessible to man-portable air defense systems. In general, they agreed on the version with beech.
    Why then was there a need to organize a circus all over the country with theories about being hit by an airplane?
    Personally, from what I saw on the Internet and for which I did not find answers:
    1. There are no eyewitnesses of the contrail and the sound of the rocket launch.
    2There are many witnesses to the flight of a military aircraft (or even two) next to the Boeing.
    3.Traces from a burst from a small-caliber cannon (large-caliber machine gun) on the remains of the casing (identical holes of a circular cross-section, equidistant from each other).
    4.Torn bodies and body parts of passengers without the slightest trace of blood. The yellow color of the skin of corpses without hematomas or bruises. Testimony from the militia, who were the first to arrive at the crash site, about a strong cadaverous smell.
    5. Where are the dispatchers' statements?
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 07: 33
      p3. There was heavy fire from the Su-30's 25mm cannon, the fire was directed at the cockpit of the airliner mainly from behind.

      here are all the answers to your questions
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g
      more than a year ago already
  60. +1
    14 October 2015 01: 38
    Quote: atalef
    As with the negotiations of dispatchers and the statement of the Ministry of Defense with radar control, where representatives of the Ministry of Defense unequivocally stated that the Boeing was shot down by a SU

    By the way, could a Buk missile be seen on the Russian radar? I’m wondering, if the Russian air defense “saw” the drying ground next to the Boeing, how could they not see the missile? What are radars for? Or are they silent because they know something?
  61. +2
    14 October 2015 01: 55
    But for conspiracy theory lovers, there are a lot of photos http://blef-nasa.livejournal.com/6783.html
    1. win
      +2
      15 October 2015 16: 23
      here's a lot of photos for conspiracy theory lovers http://blef-nasa.livejournal.com/6783.html

      I read the blogger’s version - very logical and plausible:
      There are facts, I’m ready to discuss them, but there are no versions.
      Absolutely everyone lies in this story, just in different directions.
      And so far nothing has coalesced into a single chain.
      But the agreement is clearly visible.
      Stupid, stupid, incomprehensible.

      It wasn't even interesting. This whole story is a mouse fuss
    2. win
      +1
      15 October 2015 16: 23
      here's a lot of photos for conspiracy theory lovers http://blef-nasa.livejournal.com/6783.html

      I read the blogger’s version - very logical and plausible:
      There are facts, I’m ready to discuss them, but there are no versions.
      Absolutely everyone lies in this story, just in different directions.
      And so far nothing has coalesced into a single chain.
      But the agreement is clearly visible.
      Stupid, stupid, incomprehensible.

      It wasn't even interesting. This whole story is a mouse fuss
  62. 0
    14 October 2015 02: 45
    "Tension" requires brains. The show ended a year ago; most people in Europe and America believe that the plane was shot down by Russia. We strain ourselves, proving our innocence. “Truth” and opinion are now formed by the media, not by investigators and experts. hi
  63. 0
    14 October 2015 02: 58
    some nonsense
  64. +2
    14 October 2015 07: 29
    Quote: Alexander2012
    5. Where are the dispatchers' statements?

    If these people were alive, journalists would be lining up to interview them.
    Proponents of the theory about angry and drunken separatists shooting from a Buk with one hand and the other while playing the balalaika, tactfully avoid the question of why Ukraine then multiplied the main witnesses by zero.
    1. +1
      14 October 2015 16: 15
      If only these people were alive
      request

      By the way - WHERE ARE THEY????
  65. 0
    14 October 2015 09: 22
    And Bandera’s supporters again put forward a monstrous lie: http://joinfo.ua/sociaty/1125783_U-isterika-spetssluzhbi-RF-snova-panike-udalyay
    ut.html

  66. -1
    14 October 2015 10: 47
    Chas is still in complete doubt.
    The General Staff babbled something about intelligence. Ukrainian plane, air-to-air missile, cannon fire.
    Or it was an illusion and no one spoke. Well, maybe they got carried away with the gun, but with the rocket. The aircraft's missile would have entered the Malaysian's engine, and the plane, almost intact, would have either crashed or flown further on the remaining engines.
    The plane flies at an altitude of 10 meters. The length of the aircraft is approximately 000 meters. Rocket 100 meters.
    Where and who came from? Well, even a supercomputer won’t tell. Only from which side did it explode?
    It seems to me that it is possible to calculate the position of the rocket, but it is impossible to plot the return path, taking into account maneuvering and so on.
    The missile was removed from service - this is the argument. If they were all destroyed under the supervision of someone.
    And so? Like, there are protocols. Yes, I can draw whatever you want on the computer.
    No! So far, complete confusion.
    One thing is understandable: the desire not to take on this murky business and to avoid payments from amounts that amount to millions of euros.
    1. -1
      14 October 2015 13: 02
      Go to the General Staff and say... there will be no payments later either.
    2. 0
      14 October 2015 18: 54
      They didn’t go overboard with the gun (there are 30mm holes), but it wasn’t the General Staff who spoke. The General Staff spoke about “presumably the Su-25.” On which they stand.
      The Su-25 has laser-guided missiles - wherever you point it, it will hit you. "Whirlwinds" have not been removed from service.

      The understanding is complete - there are 30mm holes (the Buk has three times less shrapnel), a military plane was nearby.

      Now you can go get a box of Valerianovka - you won’t see any scholarships from Soros.
  67. 0
    14 October 2015 13: 36
    THIS all looks like a farce! Nonsense! Purely in fact - our media claimed with a 100% guarantee that the Su-25 was shot down... The pilot's name was given... Witnesses... The broadcasts were exclusively dedicated to this...
    Now - shot down by a ground-based missile system...
    What nonsense! Purely in fact, believing our media is nonsense!
    The truth is still shrouded in darkness...
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 18: 36
      They're just kidding...
  68. 0
    14 October 2015 13: 46
    Quote: Scraptor
    Go to the General Staff and say... there will be no payments later either.

    Farted - calmed down! Drink valerian or go for a walk.
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 18: 46
      I see you have a lot of experience, messenger... bully
      But it’s okay, at the police department they will insert a small crystal... no, no slipper for you. But with the 12th fight of the Kurans, she will also turn into a big, big pumpkin.
  69. +1
    14 October 2015 14: 13
    Unfortunately, the Almaz-Antey experiment is far from reality. It doesn't take into account dynamics. The speed of the plane, the speed of the rocket, the environment in which everything happens, the pressure of the parts of the plane on each other (they managed to simply cut off the cockpit and conduct the experiment on it separately, on the ground), wind speed, pressure of the environment. All this greatly affects the results obtained results. I have to admit that the experiment was conducted more for the public, for show. As for the rocket launch site, it is almost impossible to determine. If only we take into account that its fuel consumption affects the explosion, but this influence is minimal and it is practically impossible to restore this picture. The launch site debate is purely political; no experiment will show you where a rocket is launched.
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 15: 13
      Unfortunately, the Almaz-Antey experiment is far from reality. It doesn't take into account dynamics. The speed of an airplane, the speed of a rocket,


      WHAT did the Dutch “experts” do from what you listed?
      1. -1
        14 October 2015 15: 28
        I don't know what they did from the above.
        1. 0
          14 October 2015 16: 06
          They didn’t do experiments like Anteev’s at all...
          Apparently there is no money.
          1. 0
            14 October 2015 19: 05
            apparently - desires... wink
            Moreover, it will still be like in Google “BBS deleted the report.”
  70. 0
    14 October 2015 14: 48
    Actually, the actions of “Almaz Antey” are not entirely clear. If this company decided to incur such expenses, then why not invite Western specialists from the very beginning to participate in modeling and full-scale testing. Then at least those who doubt the purity of the experiment would have much less doubt, and the results of the experiment would acquire much greater evidentiary power. And so the money went down the drain, and where it was, it stayed there. Bureaucrats can only be fought with bureaucratic methods
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 15: 06
      It was a show!!
      By the way, it’s well done - figuratively - designed for the general Western public.
      Their experts immediately refused to cooperate with us (they don’t cooperate with criminals!!)
  71. 0
    14 October 2015 15: 01
    I will suddenly and sharply disappoint everyone. No one in the West was interested in any experiments from the very beginning. Dutch investigators actively cooperated with Ukraine and pointedly did not cooperate with Russia (let the cat know whose meat it ate!!!)

    No one in the West cares about finding the guilty; in their opinion, the investigation is to prove Putin’s guilt.

    After the downing of the Boeing, Holland, as part of the EU, imposed sanctions against Russia.
    What kind of investigation???

    And only more than a year later, people in the West (those who are still interested in this) began to have doubts...
    Since it was NOT possible to prove Putin’s guilt.
    Our task was not to fight for justice - no one needs that - but to fight off accusations and let
    "honest Dutch" for a monastery...
    What is an "investigation"?
    What kind of kindergarten?

    It was a “political Boeing”...
    investigation - well, just like children - height, angle of meeting with the goal... request
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 19: 43
      Just like children who make excuses “it’s not us, not us, not us”... Therefore, now it even has the opposite effect, especially since the fact that the Su-25 was actually shot down by a cannon is being glossed over.
  72. win
    +2
    14 October 2015 15: 06
    The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth


    Only a narrow circle of people know the truth.

    In the first hours after the disaster, a version was plausibly voiced that instead of the Malaysian Boeing at that time there should be a Russian aircraft N1 in this echelon. But somewhere else over the Czech Republic, the presidential plane turned towards Poland and further through Belarus.
    But the Ukrainian special services did not know about this. Externally, the Russian and Malaysian sides had similar colors and sizes (they may not be distinguishable from a distance). In this echelon there were 2 more aircraft at close range. Therefore, the Malaysian plane (which was mistaken for Russian) was taken to the side, ordered to change altitude and direction.
    After an unsuccessful attack by a Ukrainian military aircraft, he was finished off with a Buk. All this was “seen” by an American spy satellite specially located in this area.
    Therefore, the attempts of the Western press to divert attention from the true culprits of this provocation are understandable.
    But this version and explanations lasted for several hours. And then no goo-goo. Maybe - collusion or conspiracy
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 15: 11
      Only a narrow circle of people know the truth.


      It is logical
  73. 0
    14 October 2015 15: 18
    Well, imagine - an honest, full-fledged investigation begins, with the participation of Russia. And then it turns out, then it turns out... such things become clear! belay
    Which is just terrible. am
    therefore, Russian experts were IMMEDIATELY (and rightly!!) shown the door
    And the “investigation” was carried out in a narrow circle.
    A sort of "get-together". Vanguyu - the Boeing was shot down by the Ukrainians.
    Why????- the most severe, anti-Russian investigation was carried out.
    It FAILED to hang it on us!!!
    Who are we left with - that's right - aliens from Alpha Centauri...
    If you exclude EVERYTHING that is impossible, then what remains is the truth, no matter how incredible it may look.C Yes
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 16: 50
      Well, imagine - an honest, full-fledged investigation begins, with the participation of Russia

      Tell me - before THIS, they didn’t say “shot down by a plane” in our media and on all TV channels? "holes from an aircraft cannon shot"? "pilot's last name"? "Witnesses"? "experts"?
      THIS didn't happen?
      1. 0
        14 October 2015 18: 48
        Before THIS, they didn’t say in our media and on all TV channels “shot down by a plane”?


        Before this - in the sense of BEFORE the fall of Boeing??
        Well then Putin would definitely have burned himself!!! laughing
      2. 0
        14 October 2015 19: 51
        There were also these round torn 30mm holes that have not gone away...
        Beech shrapnel is less than 9mm, and the “butterfly” I-beams leave not round holes, but slit-like cuts.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. win
        +2
        15 October 2015 16: 40
        THIS didn't happen?

        And here is the opinion of blogger ne ckazu in the article “And the Boeings kept falling and falling” on the website
        http://blef-nasa.livejournal.com/6783.html
  74. +2
    14 October 2015 15: 53
    Again and again - imagine - the Boeing was shot down by the militia...
    BUT then the Ukrainian side nothing to hide: here is the dispatcher, here are the military pilots who were in the air at that time, here ALL Bukov's calculations, here ALL missiles for Bukov - each of them individual number...
    If the Ukrainians’ hands were clean, they should have presented all this IMMEDIATELY immediately after the fall of the Boeing.

    And THEN the Kremlin would have REAL problems...
    But the Ukrainians quickly hid everything and began to shout loudly about the bad militias and the insidious Putin..

    No matter how clear and understandable everything is...

    If you say that the militias should also have... then in July 2014 no one recognized them as a party to the conflict - and there were no negotiations with them.
  75. 0
    14 October 2015 16: 04
    Quote: opus
    shell?

    Main characteristics
    Affected areas:
    missile weapons
    in range .....................1200-20000 m
    in height ........................15-15000 m

    http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php/ru/razrabotki-kbp/kompleksy-pvo/pantsir-s1

    Then Pantsir-S1 can shoot down a plane at an altitude of 10000 m?
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 17: 13
      There are other missiles there...
  76. 0
    14 October 2015 17: 41
    In the beginning there was a political order (and the guilty party was determined in advance). Then an investigation was carried out (without taking into account data from Russia and without requesting information from the United States and Ukraine). Within a year, the Dutch realized what they had gotten themselves into. The result is unclear conclusions and essentially an unfinished investigation. We have to start all over again. Who will do this is the question.
  77. -2
    14 October 2015 18: 51
    they created another nonsense in the Kremlin... it would be something to stress about, they would turn a deaf ear and that’s all.
  78. +1
    14 October 2015 19: 49
    Almaz-Antey published the results of field experiments that determine the cause and those responsible for the crash of MH-17. The West has tensed ...

    He didn't tense up at all. They didn't even read it. Do they need it? They have another report.
    1. 0
      14 October 2015 20: 57
      And here are the figurines for you!

      http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/dutch-safety-board-buk-missile-dow
      ned-mh17-over-ukraine#comment_2072924

      half of the material is links to the Almaz-Antey report. am
      1. 0
        15 October 2015 00: 48
        It’s bad... It’s a real disaster... They “took” the 30mm exit holes from the Su-25 cannon on the Boeing cockpit for 8,4mm input holes, supposedly from their own shrapnel.
        The Japanese will take a ruler and quickly measure by rivets.
  79. 0
    14 October 2015 20: 34
    Quote: Siegen
    The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth


    Only a narrow circle of people know the truth.

    In the first hours after the disaster, a version was plausibly voiced that instead of the Malaysian Boeing at that time there should be a Russian aircraft N1 in this echelon. But somewhere else over the Czech Republic, the presidential plane turned towards Poland and further through Belarus.
    But the Ukrainian special services did not know about this. Externally, the Russian and Malaysian sides had similar colors and sizes (they may not be distinguishable from a distance). In this echelon there were 2 more aircraft at close range. Therefore, the Malaysian plane (which was mistaken for Russian) was taken to the side, ordered to change altitude and direction.
    After an unsuccessful attack by a Ukrainian military aircraft, he was finished off with a Buk. All this was “seen” by an American spy satellite specially located in this area.
    Therefore, the attempts of the Western press to divert attention from the true culprits of this provocation are understandable.
    But this version and explanations lasted for several hours. And then no goo-goo. Maybe - collusion or conspiracy

    1.Air Force No. 1 was planning a detour through Donbass? Have you even looked at this route on a map? 2. Well, it has already been recognized by everyone, including the Russian Federation: there were three passenger planes there at that time. There were no attack aircraft there. Why are you too lazy to Google? 3.You are discrediting this forum with such comments...
  80. 0
    15 October 2015 10: 43
    If there were evidence of the guilt of the militias, these facts would be replicated by all the American-controlled media in the world.
  81. win
    +2
    15 October 2015 11: 28
    Why are you too lazy to google?

    Air Force One was planning a detour through Donbass?


    1. I don’t use Google at all. This is an American search engine.
    2. The plane was heading to Sochi, and the route could have been intentional misinformation.
    3. When I served in the radio engineering units of OsNaz, the USSR listened to even insignificant conversations in most countries. Is Russian intelligence really such a mess that they don’t even listen to Ukraine? I do not believe!
  82. -3
    15 October 2015 11: 41
    Russia has not provided digital sources of its radar recordings. Instead of the source files, they transmitted a video recording from the monitor screen (on video cassette!).
    These sources were repeatedly requested from them, the requests remained unanswered. And then they said that the source code had been erased. Because they are not obliged to store them. These facts are noted in the report. Dutch experts determined that the body of the ship's captain was subjected to an autopsy to remove foreign objects.
    The report noted that many parts of the plane and cargo photographed immediately after the crash subsequently disappeared. Investigators and DSB experts were not allowed in until November. It was also noted that it was those fragments that disappeared that had holes from shrapnel and traces of soot from the explosion . The strangeness of the Russian Federation’s position is that by persisting in lies, stubbornly denying obvious facts and making clumsy attempts to hide evidence, they only strengthen investigators in the suspicion that the Boeing was shot down not by accident, but deliberately.
    The longer this shameful farce continues, the greater the chances that the indictment of the Dutch Prosecutor's Office will be classified as "Intentional Murder".
    1. 0
      15 October 2015 11: 47
      What else does Maidan radio broadcast? Has Ukraine provided any of this?

      Investigators and experts walked around the field two days later, if not earlier, until Ukrainian artillery began shelling it for some reason.
  83. -1
    15 October 2015 12: 40
    Quote: Scraptor
    What else does Maidan radio broadcast? Has Ukraine provided any of this?

    Investigators and experts walked around the field two days later, if not earlier, until Ukrainian artillery began shelling it for some reason.

    I know this from friends who stood guard there and then died so that the Nazis wouldn’t get through to you. Now they cheated us and write unverified information. Better go to the forum about Novosyria.
    1. 0
      15 October 2015 22: 01
      Quote: kostavit
      Dutch experts determined that the body of the ship's captain was subjected to an autopsy to remove foreign objects.

      What else have these “British scientists” established? There was no body there as such - the pilots were shot along with the cockpit from a 30mm cannon. Beech shrapnel - diameter 8,4mm and “razor” 13*13mm, the size of the holes of 30mm in the photographs can be measured by anyone and everyone with a finger or a ruler.
      Your friends - for one place and in a drug dispensary or in a madhouse... Go and throw some amphetamines while you're at it, sectarian!
  84. -1
    15 October 2015 13: 55
    Quote: kostavit
    Russia has not provided digital sources of its radar recordings.

    Yes, there is such a moment. In reality, it is far from clear who is really guilty. Now the task is not to find the culprit, but to make people believe in the point of view necessary for each side, and this is already the sphere of propaganda.
    1. 0
      15 October 2015 22: 55
      In reality, everything has been clear for a long time, that’s why Ukraine doesn’t provide them... bully Just like it doesn’t provide anything at all. And they officially agreed to hide a well-known number from the public all about MH-17 until they collectively declassify it.
  85. win
    +2
    15 October 2015 15: 04
    The Boeing was not shot down by accident, but deliberately

    Which of the warring parties was interfered with by a passenger plane, especially one flying at a great altitude?
    A little more and the debris would have fallen on the Russian side. The effect would be worse and more significant...
    1. 0
      15 October 2015 22: 56
      Not at all - at that time Russia was definitely conducting the investigation.
      They would have imprisoned more than one “European deputy” SSavchenko... even a right-wing air traffic controller, for example. wassat
  86. win
    +2
    15 October 2015 16: 52
    the majority of ordinary people in Europe and America believe that the plane was shot down by Russia... “Truth” and opinion are now shaped by the media

    And here is the version of blogger jadore_odessa about the “plane with corpses” version:

    Apparently, the plane is NOT REALLY, and the whole tragedy is a spectacle, like the demolition of towers in New York on September 11th.

    1. In March, a Malaysia Airlines plane was hijacked and allegedly disappeared completely and without a trace. In fact, it was ferried to the American military base, Diego Garcia. 2. Then, he was transported to Holland. On the right day and time, he flew to Malaysia. There were not living people inside, but corpses. The plane was not flown by real pilots, but by an autopilot. Or the take-off (a complex procedure) was made by live pilots who parachuted in advance. Then the plane flew automatically.

    It was blown up in the right place (perhaps even without a surface-to-air missile, but simply by planting explosives in it, a trace of the US CIA, just like September 11th)...

    8. The purpose of the US CIA operation is to blame Russia for everything and start a big war against it.
  87. 0
    15 October 2015 17: 48
    Quote: Siegen
    the majority of ordinary people in Europe and America believe that the plane was shot down by Russia... “Truth” and opinion are now shaped by the media

    And here is the version of blogger jadore_odessa about the “plane with corpses” version:

    Apparently, the plane is NOT REALLY, and the whole tragedy is a spectacle, like the demolition of towers in New York on September 11th.

    1. In March, a Malaysia Airlines plane was hijacked and allegedly disappeared completely and without a trace. In fact, it was ferried to the American military base, Diego Garcia. 2. Then, he was transported to Holland. On the right day and time, he flew to Malaysia. There were not living people inside, but corpses. The plane was not flown by real pilots, but by an autopilot. Or the take-off (a complex procedure) was made by live pilots who parachuted in advance. Then the plane flew automatically.

    It was blown up in the right place (perhaps even without a surface-to-air missile, but simply by planting explosives in it, a trace of the US CIA, just like September 11th)...

    8. The purpose of the US CIA operation is to blame Russia for everything and start a big war against it.

    I don’t even know how to react to such nonsense. If google disgusts you, use Yandex.
  88. 0
    15 October 2015 18: 06
    Quote: kostavit
    These sources were repeatedly requested from them, the requests remained unanswered. And then they said that the source code had been erased. Because they are not obliged to store them. These facts are noted in the report.

    Please provide a link to the source where it is reported that the source code has been erased.
    I don’t question your point of view, but just two days ago I read that “Records from radars are still stored, although they are not obliged to store them.”

    Thank you!
    1. 0
      15 October 2015 20: 00
      Read the final report on the cause of the Boeing 777 crash of flight MH17 by the Dutch Safety Board, section Flight Data and General Situation, paragraph Radar Images of MH17.
      1. 0
        16 October 2015 04: 43
        It looks like the site of another “fan group”.
        They are respected at the Foreign Ministry, and if it says so there, then your Dutchman will wash away more than her...
    2. +1
      15 October 2015 20: 03
      http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/brochure-mh17-crash-ru.pdf
      1. 0
        16 October 2015 04: 39
        without viruses?
    3. 0
      15 October 2015 20: 09
      Details in the applications, read: http://flight-mh17.livejournal.com/137608.html
      1. 0
        16 October 2015 04: 39
        ... why are the “details” in LiveJournal? bully
        1. 0
          16 October 2015 08: 23
          1. There are just links to applications. You can find them yourself without LiveJournal if you are a more or less advanced Internet user. 2. You don’t have an antivirus???
          1. 0
            16 October 2015 10: 35
            This LJ belongs to the Dutch Safety Board, right? wassat
            why not directly on their website? laughing
  89. The comment was deleted.
  90. 0
    16 October 2015 08: 27
    Quote: Scraptor
    It looks like the site of another “fan group”.
    They are respected at the Foreign Ministry, and if it says so there, then your Dutchman will wash away more than her...

    What site are you talking about?
    1. 0
      16 October 2015 10: 39
      Well, not about LJ... But for the rest, does it mean that the fate of grass plantations in the attic and investments in a fertilizer are not of interest?
  91. win
    +2
    16 October 2015 10: 22
    I don’t even know how to react to this delirium

    You can read the opinion of blogger ne_ckazu: And the Boeings kept falling and falling http://blef-nasa.livejournal.com/6783.html with photographs.
    But you are unlikely to like it, since it does not fit your theory.
  92. 0
    16 October 2015 12: 20
    Quote: Siegen
    I don’t even know how to react to this delirium

    You can read the opinion of blogger ne_ckazu: And the Boeings kept falling and falling http://blef-nasa.livejournal.com/6783.html with photographs.
    But you are unlikely to like it, since it does not fit your theory.

    I liked it! Honestly! Why: 1. There are absolutely sensible thoughts. 2. I laughed out loud at some of the conclusions. 3. The comments are something, my favorite comedians Shifrin and Galkin are resting. 4. The author, with his “facts,” contradicts himself, but how then with humor. You probably don’t know: I live nearby + Afghan experience. I won’t discuss this article.
  93. 0
    16 October 2015 14: 00
    PEOPLE! Here's a video from July 16, 2015. Ukrainian military patrolling their territories, although I don’t understand Ukrainian. Please note 4.47. I think it's BUK.
    1. 0
      16 October 2015 18: 51
      In the center is Radar 36D6-M, I know that for sure. But the video is fake, can’t you see? Where is the channel name in the right corner? There is no need to hang noodles here, it’s enough as it is...
  94. kig
    0
    16 October 2015 16: 00
    The Diamond team determined the location of the explosion (top left) based on an analysis of damage to the aircraft hull. Did they have access to the wreckage? It seems they were taken to Holland and studied there. This means that they took the data for their conclusions based on the analysis of photographs, and this is not exactly the same as the original. It follows that the Dutch must have more accurate information about the damage, and their conclusions may be different. Now about the trajectory. It seems to me that in order to determine the possible trajectory of a missile, it is necessary to know exactly the coordinates of the place where the explosion occurred, the course of the target and the nature of the damage. And the course, speed and latest GPS data? After all, judging by the press, the Dutch did not share information about the investigation, and therefore about the contents of the black boxes, with anyone. So where did Almaz get them from? From the site Flightradar247 This is all frivolous.