Military Review

"Almaz-Antey" announced the results of field experiments that determine the cause and those responsible for the crash of MH-17. West tensed ...

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Russian concern "Almaz-Antey" (OJSC Concern Air Defense "Almaz - Antey"), ahead of the so-called international investigative team (in common - “Dutch experts”), presented a report on the results of a full-scale experiment, which allows to draw final conclusions about what was the main cause of the crash of a Boeing-777 Malaysian airline. The disaster, as is known, took place on July 17 2014, near the village of Hrabovo (Donetsk region). To investigate the causes of the catastrophe, a group of international experts was formed, where, for some reason, they decided not to include Russian specialists, although in Ukraine and in the West (simultaneously with the fall of Boeing) they called Russia “the culprit of the tragedy”.


The Almaz-Antey Concern presented a detailed report on the results of the experiment, which (report), by definition, must be fully presented so that the reader can get acquainted with the data of professional Russian designers. The experiment itself looks more than impressive, and its results in this regard can be called not just an expert opinion, but an embodiment of objectivity and professional approach to business.

So, the text of the statement from the official representative of "Almaz-Antey":

The purpose of the field experiment was to confirm or refute the results of the Almaz-Antey report presented at the June 2 press conference. To test their own theoretical conclusions, a series of tests was carried out.

The first of them was held in late July. In the form of the fuselage were put up iron shields and special traps, catching striking elements, as well as metal shields, imitating the left engine. The missile warhead was undermined at an angle, as if the missile was heading for an airplane from the Zaroshchenskoye area. The fragment field obtained in the course of the experiment was then programmatically superimposed on the Boeing-777 model. As a result, damage similar to those found on the Malaysian Boeing was recorded. The calculations of "Almaz-Antey" were confirmed.

The second phase of the test was 7 October.

It was already a full-scale natural experiment. The goal was to check the version announced in the preliminary report of the international commission that the rocket was launched from the Snezhnoye area. For this, the Il-86 retired aircraft was purchased, which is most suitable for aerodynamic, technical, physical, and a variety of other parameters, as similar in design to the Boeing-777 fuselage.

The supercomputer processed more than 14 of millions of possible variants, the parameters of compensation of the dynamic and static position of objects - the rocket and the aircraft were determined. The 9М38М1 missile was undermined with a 9H314M warhead. As a result of the experiment, a preliminary version of the international commission that the launch was carried out from the Snezhniy area was disproved, since the nature of the damage to the aircraft at such angles of missile approach was quite different from what we see on the Boeing’s fuselage in reality.

Recall that the main impact of the striking elements was on the left side of the Malaysian Boeing - the cockpit, the left wing, the left engine and the left tail section. During the experiment conducted on the basis of data from an international commission, IL-86 did not receive damage to the left engine at all. The main concentration of damaging elements - the so-called "scalpel" - passed through the cabin, which eliminates the preservation of its right part intact. Thus, we have to admit that the rocket could not be sent to the Boeing from the village of Snezhnoye. This, in turn, completely refutes the version of the international commission to investigate the disaster.

According to the preliminary report of the international commission, the Malaysian aircraft was shot down by the 9М38М1 rocket, which includes striking elements - "I-beams". In the course of the field experiment, Almaz-Antey used the 86М9М38 with “I-beams” modification to undermine the Il-1 aircraft, since an international commission insists on this version. A characteristic feature of the undermining of the warhead of the 9М38М1 rocket is the formation of two fronts of striking elements. In the first, lighter fragments, and in the second - a heavy fraction of “I-beams” with maximum kinetic energy. Damage remaining on the body as a result of hitting the "I-beam" has a shape that can be called a butterfly. It is important to note that the earlier version of the 9М38 rocket does not incorporate "I-beams", its damaging elements leave damages in the form of parallelepipeds. In Soviet times, 9М38 missiles were supplied to Ukraine. Accurate data on the number of such ammunition from the Ukrainian army to date have not been preserved. It is important to emphasize that the 9М38 missiles in service with Russia are not worth it - since 1986, such missiles have not been delivered to the army, the last one expired in 2011.

During the experiment, on the body of the aircraft after the rocket exploded, a lot of butterfly-shaped inlets were found, these are traces of the "I-beams". However, it is known that no butterfly-shaped holes were found on the body of the downed Malaysian Boeing, damage in the shape of a “parallelepiped” prevailed, which can inflict damage to missiles of the previous generation 9М38.


"Almaz-Antey" announced the results of field experiments that determine the cause and those responsible for the crash of MH-17. West tensed ...


Thus, the field experiment not only refutes the Dutch version that the rocket was launched from Snezhniy, but also the thesis that the shot was fired using 9М38М1 munition.




A subtle hint from Almaz-Antey specialists that it would be nice for “Dutch specialists” to repeat the geometry school course before making statements about the direction of hitting the plane:



In preparation for the full-scale experiment, the Concern was placed in a very tight time frame. It was necessary to solve a whole range of problems - from the search for a decommissioned aircraft to logistics issues, it was necessary to choose a site for the experiment. Opportunities to purchase Boeing-777, taking into account the objective factors - logistics and time constraints - just did not exist. However, the fuselage of the Il-86 aircraft is as a whole, as well as aerodynamic, technical, physical, and a number of other parameters affecting the purity of the experiment, similar in design and basic parameters to the Boeing-777 fuselage. Taking into account all these features, after consulting with specialists, the Concern management decided to purchase an Il-86 aircraft for the experiment.

The 9H314М warhead for the first phase of the field experiment and the 9М38М1 rocket assembly for its second phase - a full-scale field experiment - were obtained by the Concern from the presence of the Russian Ministry of Defense. Almaz-Antey specialists prepared the rocket for the experiment in such a way that fully all the characteristics of the product, including the status of the squibs and other parameters, fully comply with the 40 second rocket flight. The event was attended by experts and experts of the Concern, including the Dolgoprudny Research and Production Enterprise, as well as the VV Bakhirev State Research Institute of Mechanical Engineering and the Central Research Institute of Air Forces of the Russian Defense Ministry.


A video that puts dots on “i” on the question of what hit the Malaysian airliner and where it was hit from.



The results of a full-scale experiment showed that a blow was struck from the area of ​​the settlement of Zaroshchenskoye, where the active “Buk” air defense system of Ukraine was located.

The professionalism with which representatives of the Russian manufacturer of military equipment approached and published data on the direction of the strike on the airliner and the establishment of real ammunition that led 17 last July to the death of 298 people, made even the clearly Russophobian publications scratch their heads. Thus, a report was published on CNN, in which experts stated that the press conference of Almaz-Antey specialists and the data presented on it were a “powerful message to the West.”

Jill Doggerty (International Defense and Security Center staff) for CNN (translation RT):

The company that produces these rockets claims - as she has said repeatedly - that she conducted very thorough simulations — more precisely, two simulations — of how this catastrophe happened. And they believe that the fired rocket came not from the territory of the rebels, but from the territory under the control of Ukrainian government forces. At the same time, the Russians declare to us: “You, the West, ignore the information and intelligence information we have, which say that Ukrainians are to blame.” And this is a very powerful message, the essence of which is: "You do not listen to what we have told you."


It is quite understandable that the data professionally presented by the Russian defense concern, a priori, cause, so to speak, a blow to justice and objectivity on the mezzanine loot the Dutch turned into the investigation and, most importantly, the forces behind the Dutch commission. If the facts presented by Russia are based on openly submitted scientific data, including experimental ones, the “expert cell” in the Netherlands for more than a year of “work” did not bother to make an elementary display of the aircraft fragments. Although what sort of calculation is in question, when the fragments were sawed at the crash site by the grinder and literally pushed into containers, deforming what was already subjected to multiple deformations due to the artillery strikes of the Ukrainian security forces.

By the way, by the present minute the same international expert group also presented its report. The first thing that attracts attention is the coincidence of the results (with Almaz-Antey) about the nature of the used ammunition. The Dutch also declare the use of the 9М38 rocket against the airliner, which has not been used in Russia for a long time. However, the Dutch experts decided not to go to the logical end and announced that "they do not know where exactly the missile was fired at Boeing."

RIA News cites a fragment of a statement by the representative of the expert group Tjibi Joostra (Chairman of the Security Council of the Netherlands):
An additional forensic investigation will be required to determine the launch site. Such an investigation is beyond the competence of the Netherlands Security Council.


Well, if the whole year is not enough, go to the end already - find in yourself, Mr. Justra, the courage to refer to the data of Russian experts who did not spare either the strength or the means to establish the truth about the crash of the MH-17 flight. Or will you continue to make ridiculous attempts to block the true culprits of the tragedy? ..
Author:
Photos used:
"Almaz-Antey", RT
219 comments
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  1. oleg-gr
    oleg-gr 13 October 2015 15: 25 New
    +35
    Almaz-Antey Concern presented a detailed report on the results of the experiment. Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.
    1. subbtin.725
      subbtin.725 13 October 2015 15: 33 New
      +21
      What a huge amount of work they did. Impressive. The West will probably merge by the spring.
      1. Major Yurik
        Major Yurik 13 October 2015 15: 48 New
        +65
        The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it! It is a pity those countries that can’t even tell the truth about the deaths of their citizens due to the Yankes addiction. Miserable moral freaks! am
        1. kocclissi
          kocclissi 13 October 2015 17: 25 New
          +29
          As Comrade Goblin said: Those who launched this Boeing are not guilty in an unsafe zone!
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 14 October 2015 14: 44 New
            +2
            In general, I would have pulled D. Puchkova into European and American prime time on RT. His level of English is enough to absolutely authentically repeat all this for a Western audience in their language.
        2. Lelek
          Lelek 13 October 2015 18: 02 New
          +11
          Quote: Major Yurik
          The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it!


          Yuri (can I call you that?), Here's something about this:
          1. Throw
            Throw 13 October 2015 18: 53 New
            +4
            Dutch experts ... announced that "they do not know where exactly the rocket was launched on the Boeing."


          2. Major Yurik
            Major Yurik 13 October 2015 19: 08 New
            +3
            Quote: Lelek
            Quote: Major Yurik
            The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it!


            Yuri (can I call you that?), Here's something about this:


            Lion, of course you can, Petersburgers even need! wink
            And about all this bacchanalia, by God, after watching their euronews, sometimes I just want to go and wash my hands, purely reflex! hi
            1. Talgat
              Talgat 13 October 2015 20: 47 New
              +5
              but I wanted to notice. that in Kz, long before all these experiments, everyone already understood everything

              Our BISAM agency (an analogue of the bleeding in the center of the Russian Federation) conducted a survey and 80% of the population of the republic considered that the Russian Federation or militias did not bring down this flight

              Just by the logic of Russia, it was not profitable. But to the west, provocation is just at hand
        3. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg 13 October 2015 23: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: Major Yurik
          The saddest thing is that everyone knows the truth, but nobody but Russia needs it! It is a pity those countries that can’t even tell the truth about the deaths of their citizens due to the Yankes addiction. Miserable moral freaks! am


          Not the fact that there was anyone alive at all. We are of course offended, but on the other hand do not care. Sooner or later, they will bring down something that chokes. This is a well-known path and everyone knows where it leads.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Baikonur
        Baikonur 13 October 2015 16: 06 New
        +3
        The West will surely merge by the spring of pigment.

        He himself will merge and then he will merge, or vice versa!

        Video - feik most likely but pleased:
        1. Lelek
          Lelek 13 October 2015 18: 08 New
          +1
          Quote: Baikonur
          Video - feik most likely but pleased:


          Maybe a fake, or maybe not: bully
      4. Andrey NM
        Andrey NM 13 October 2015 18: 21 New
        +7
        Meanwhile: “The Netherlands Security Council will not resume an investigation into the causes of the Boeing’s death in eastern Ukraine, its official representative Sarah Fernoy said in response to a TASS correspondent.
        According to Fernoy, the organization’s work ended with the publication of the report on the crash of the liner in Ukraine. "

        Further digging makes no sense, you can dig yourself.
      5. NEXUS
        NEXUS 13 October 2015 21: 05 New
        +4
        Quote: subbtin.725
        What a huge amount of work they did. Impressive. The West will probably merge by the spring.

        I think our diplomats will hold this trump card for a while. I don’t think that this is a personal initiative of the Almaz-Antey leadership. So, here we are preparing a surprise for the adversary.
        1. Kindof
          Kindof 13 October 2015 21: 42 New
          +2
          There is still a press conference after the presentation of the special report ..
          And the results of the work of the Diamond in questions of the right journalists can plunge Dutch experts into a puddle, such as:
          Do you agree with the conclusions of the Diamond? No? why: did you carry out the same investigative experiment? No? And without a comparable technical level, I'm sorry, your conclusions are pulled by bullshit ..

          What will give an additional useful effect
      6. The comment was deleted.
      7. Persistent
        Persistent 14 October 2015 17: 07 New
        0
        Impressive. The west by the time of the piglet is sure to merge.

        Porasya or slaughter by the fall, or as potatoes in the spring planted (on an electric chair) ..... laughing
    2. iConst
      iConst 13 October 2015 15: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.
      - They will not consider it, because, following their logic: how to believe the guilty party - the stump is clear - Russia is being "justified."

      However:
      Quote: article
      In an experiment conducted on the basis of international commission data, the IL-86 did not receive any damage to the left engine.
      - Something I did not understand, what engines? Only the bow stood there.

      Am I not catching up with something?
      1. Sobol
        Sobol 13 October 2015 15: 41 New
        +4
        Quote: iConst
        Something I did not understand, what engines? Only the bow stood there.

        Am I not catching up with something?

        The metal shield on the left plays the role of an engine.
        1. iConst
          iConst 13 October 2015 15: 52 New
          0
          Quote: SoboL
          The metal shield on the left plays the role of an engine.
          - Right! I have not noticed.

          I watched the shortened video.
      2. Sukhoi
        Sukhoi 13 October 2015 15: 52 New
        +5
        - Something I did not understand, what engines? Only the bow stood there.

        Am I not catching up with something?

        Only the nose was blown up, and the role of the engines and the rest of the fuselage was played by the placed trap shields.
    3. Finches
      Finches 13 October 2015 15: 35 New
      +25
      In Langley, everything was calculated correctly! It was not for nothing that the GDP called the US intelligence very powerful, but the only thing the CIA experts made a mistake was the Ukrainians’ handshake! Only we Russians know about this! Why historically we are called older brothers! laughing
      1. MIKHALYCH1
        MIKHALYCH1 13 October 2015 15: 46 New
        +5
        I adhere to the version that "Putin personally shot down" .. A more evidence-based system of inferences ... Let's all agree and calm down ... Here is the evidence for a long time .. bully
        1. veksha50
          veksha50 13 October 2015 17: 10 New
          +6
          Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
          Here is the evidence for a long time already ..



          What was that ???

          If Putin was guarded like that - what, at least a regiment, or what ???

          PS DAM flew to us by helicopter - without any fighters ... I flew a bit (though, two helicopters accompanied him) - and screwed it ... It seems that the loss is small if there are such people, but without security ...
          1. Ramzaj99
            Ramzaj99 13 October 2015 18: 25 New
            +10
            Quote: veksha50
            What was that ??? If Putin was so guarded - what, at least a regiment, or what ???

            We are looking at the date (May 3) !. This is preparation for the air parade on May 9))) !!!!
            1. veksha50
              veksha50 13 October 2015 20: 58 New
              +3
              Quote: Ramzaj99
              We are looking at the date (May 3) !. This is preparation for the air parade on May 9))) !!!!



              I fell for screams in the video ... Putin, Putin ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Retvizan 8
          Retvizan 8 13 October 2015 20: 03 New
          +5
          And now I propose to see the air parade in the Crimea and compare ...
          ... in Russia everyone knows that Putin flies without an airplane, only a black cloak behind him is developing across the sky!
        3. Finches
          Finches 13 October 2015 21: 02 New
          +1
          Mikhalych! Sober up ... laughing
      2. fennekRUS
        fennekRUS 13 October 2015 15: 48 New
        +7
        Quote: Finches
        In Langley, everything was calculated correctly!

        To quote the “teachers” of these pros, “The English are known throughout the world for their lack of conscience in politics. They are experts in the art of hiding their crimes behind a facade of decency. They have done so for centuries, and it has become so much a part of their nature that they themselves no longer notice this trait. They act with such a well-meaning expression and such absolute seriousness that they even convince themselves that they serve as an example of political innocence. They do not admit to themselves their hypocrisy. One Englishman will never wink at another and say: “but we understand what we mean.” They not only behave as an example of purity and integrity - they believe in themselves. This is both funny and dangerous ”(Joseph Goebbels,“ Children with Severed Handles ”).
        Here, I’m afraid I smell more like a diagnosis, well, and hope that the dirt will stick, and after a year, the truth will be of no interest to anyone
      3. BMW
        BMW 13 October 2015 15: 49 New
        +5
        Quote: Finches
        ! Why are we historically called older brothers!

        Right now, the screech will rise in Hohland, the Dutch have confirmed which rocket they shot down, though the launch point has been washed out to indecent. All now, and the Dutch are not brothers.
        1. Lelek
          Lelek 13 October 2015 18: 33 New
          +4
          Quote: bmw
          Right now, the screech will rise in Hohland, the Dutch have confirmed which rocket they shot down, though the launch point has been washed out to indecent. All now, and the Dutch are not brothers.


          France and Germany have already been called non-friendly states, now Holland, and tomorrow the EU is the worst enemy that envies the powerful and prosperous Krajina and grunts it without giving money for this very “prosperity”. Something like this.
      4. Altona
        Altona 13 October 2015 16: 42 New
        +4
        Quote: Finches
        In Langley, everything was calculated correctly! It was not for nothing that the GDP called the US intelligence very powerful, but the only thing the CIA experts made a mistake was the Ukrainians’ handshake! Only we Russians know about this! Why historically we are called older brothers!

        -----------------------
        A year ago, it was said about this that in squinting and handshaking, no one can be compared with Ukrainians ...
    4. sever.56
      sever.56 13 October 2015 15: 42 New
      +20
      http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/042/rsjh157.png
    5. 44 World
      44 World 13 October 2015 15: 48 New
      +5
      Trumps went into action, first published an experiment from Almaz-antey, what will we finish ???
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 13 October 2015 16: 03 New
        +7
        Quote: 44World
        Trumps went into action, first published an experiment from Almaz-antey, what will we finish ???

        I think the main trump cards have not yet shone. Who was talking about Russia's passivity in the MN-17 issue?
        1. jjj
          jjj 13 October 2015 16: 48 New
          +5
          At the same time, our team developed a method for determining the coordinates of a rocket launch using fuselage elements
          1. adept666
            adept666 13 October 2015 18: 56 New
            +3
            At the same time, our team developed a method for determining the coordinates of a rocket launch using fuselage elements
            And then it was not)))
      2. veksha50
        veksha50 13 October 2015 17: 12 New
        +1
        Quote: 44World
        what will we finish ???



        Large caliber ...
      3. lance
        lance 16 October 2015 15: 30 New
        +1
        I can definitely say there is something.
    6. veksha50
      veksha50 13 October 2015 16: 56 New
      +7
      Quote: oleg-gr
      The truth will come out.



      No truth will come out ...

      Do you really think that in the presence of large space groups neither the USA nor Russia has any data on a specific case ???

      Moreover, in this territory, near by, Russia is fighting - was it really that the airspace of the South-East of Ukraine was not under our control ??? Tokda, as Sokolov was removed because of Rust, in this case the Commander of the Air Defense Forces should not just be sent to retire ...

      Why has the question of the dispatchers who directed and led this ill-fated board been long gone?

      Why did this country Holland, which demanded the creation of an international tribunal for Boeing, literally yesterday, the day before yesterday sharply played back ???

      Why why why...

      I would like to tell all of them in the words of Faina Ranevskaya: "Let's all go to jo ..." ...
    7. vorobey
      vorobey 13 October 2015 17: 57 New
      +1
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.


      I wildly apologize for interfering .. today 13 ... the report of the Dutch Commission has already been or not ... otherwise I promised the crow to shout ... repeat
      1. Papakiko
        Papakiko 13 October 2015 18: 42 New
        +1
        Quote: vorobey
        otherwise I promised the crow to shout ...

        Get started. laughing
        As I said: Published "Pre-Pre." drinks
        Quote: 44World
        Trumps went to business

        Well, before that, it’s still not close, while Jacks and Ladies are in use.
        Quote: papas-57
        The culprits have already been appointed by Washington.

        And then delirium will intensify.
        Quote: bmw
        All now, and the Dutch are not brothers.

        Have they ever eaten like that?
        I was thinking, sho exclusively PARTNERS! wassat
        1. vorobey
          vorobey 13 October 2015 19: 26 New
          +2
          Quote: Papakiko
          Quote: vorobey
          otherwise I promised the crow to shout ...
          Get started.


          Well, crow ... I feel so for a long time everyone knows everything .... laughing
          1. Papakiko
            Papakiko 13 October 2015 21: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: vorobey
            Well, crow ... I feel so for a long time everyone knows everything ...

            Yes, I, too, with taboo for the company, do not miss ..... laughing
            Ku-ki-ry-ku-ki-and-i-!
          2. aksakal
            aksakal 13 October 2015 22: 21 New
            +1
            Quote: vorobey
            Well crow ... I feel like this for a long time everyone knows

            - somehow it ... Drive is not enough! laughing It is necessary with expressions, an anguish in the voice, that would be from the heart! laughing But I still liked it, please repeat! laughing
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 13 October 2015 22: 33 New
              +1
              Quote: aksakal
              please repeat!


              catch the tongue first tongue

              The drive is not enough ... now it will be even less ... someone .. wink

              The world community is depressed by the report ...
      2. atalef
        atalef 13 October 2015 21: 14 New
        +4
        Quote: vorobey
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.


        I wildly apologize for interfering .. today 13 ... the report of the Dutch Commission has already been or not ... otherwise I promised the crow to shout ... repeat

        Get started laughing, you at least got off with crowing, Romanov got on more wassat
        1. vorobey
          vorobey 13 October 2015 21: 44 New
          +2
          Quote: atalef
          Romanov got on more


          I share if it's brandy .. laughing

          Sanya, but complained that the Dutch report seems to be there and it seems not. The mushrooms were nonspecific blah blah .. but .. the brand of the rocket was called the same, the radius in which both Zaroshchenskoye and Snezhnoye were outlined, and they began to scold Ukraine for the open sky ... although I nevertheless remain on my own ... fell him in tandem ... he should not have fallen where he fell ..
          1. Papakiko
            Papakiko 13 October 2015 22: 06 New
            0
            Quote: vorobey
            although I still remain on my own ... fell him in tandem ... he should not have fallen where he fell.

            I am not in the subject, but can be more detailed, please.
            Quote: vorobey
            I share if it's brandy ..

            The box "Courvoisier VS" appeared.
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 13 October 2015 22: 42 New
              +1
              Quote: Papakiko
              I am not in the subject, but can be more detailed, please.


              I initially said that the plane should not have fallen where it had fallen ... and in Russia, as claimed by many, it should not have fallen because we would have had all the evidence then ...

              Judging by the data of objective control, the drying was really there, but its role is either to control the hit and if to finish (control shot) or initially attacked it (the cockpit) and Buk already finished off .. Answering Atalef .. Our Sanya can now and go to the bargain - forget about drying, mumbling the verdict and agreeing again to the absurd accident of Ukrainian irresponsibility and not to the planned war crime (for then they will have a pale appearance) laughing
          2. atalef
            atalef 13 October 2015 22: 43 New
            -4
            Quote: vorobey
            Sanya, but say that the Dutch report seems to be there, and it seems not

            You do not understand one thing, as well as the European approach, by the way.
            In ancient Rome (in my opinion) they said revenge should be served on a cold plate and in small portions.
            So, in fact, they said everything (at this stage)
            It was shot down by a Buk missile (marking all 100% of the version) from the SU aircraft and to the point that the aircraft exploded itself.
            Then, they called a square of 20 sq. Km (not so big) saying that they would provide the conclusions (whose one it was) later, after additional investigation.
            You can rest assured that they already have all the data, and whose, and who, and how.
            They promised to publish on October 13, they did it.
            They will publish the next one in the clearly promised time frame.
            After they podpozdichut in Russia and accept the version of Buk as the only one, but with a question like - these are not militias.
            But after that, when the question is --- WHO? They will publish the ogs, and as you noticed, the experts have no complaints about their investigation, the Dutch do everything thoroughly.
            You can’t find fault with this report. you will not find fault with the next one.
            I will tell you my opinion.
            My opinion, which does not oblige anyone to anything.
            Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.
            Substituting Russia to the fullest.
            Russia here came under the distribution, I would not say - being out of business, but simply relying on those. to whom it was impossible.
            Typical Russian maybe, or they wanted the best - it turned out as always.
            I think so, but there’s nowhere to go - it's like in the gangster 90s, I signed up - I’ll have to pull the strap.

            Quote: vorobey
            e, and they began to scold Ukraine for the open sky ... although I still remain on my own ... fell him in tandem ... he should not have fallen where he fell ..

            they didn’t bring them down in tandem, and the investigation showed it unequivocally, saying that the defeat of a missile air = air or another plane is excluded. (Yes, it is not questioned, but simply excluded.
            That’s basically my vision of the picture - by the way, I saw it a year ago. (If you remember)
            hi
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 13 October 2015 23: 07 New
              +5
              Quote: atalef
              That’s basically my vision of the picture - by the way, I saw it a year ago. (If you remember)


              Sanya and the Dutch and ours called one type of rocket ... 9M38 Ukrainian rocket .. and in the report they indicated a square of 320 KM in which both Snezhnoye and Zaroshchenskoe fall wink

              wait ..

              Quote: atalef
              Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.


              as far as I know, Beech does not shoot on his own ... and even such a conspiracy theorist like I wouldn’t pass on such a technique to the militia because the taxi driver cannot quickly restore his skills even if he served on the beech ... the Americans won, too, the Patriots rebels transmit ... limited to Manual MANPADS ..
              1. Papakiko
                Papakiko 13 October 2015 23: 28 New
                +2
                Quote: vorobey
                Sanya and the Dutch and ours called one type of missile ... 9M38 Ukrainian missile.

                The main joke here is not in the rocket but in the warhead and its filling, and in the reports it is different.
                Quote: vorobey
                and they indicated in the report a square of 320 km into which Snezhnoye and Zaroshchenskoe fall

                And this is HPP "live bait" for "partners", let them twist their asses under which yildo they get further. Fortunately there is a choice laughing
                Quote: vorobey
                agreeing again to the absurd accident of Ukrainian irresponsibility and not to a planned war crime (for then they will have a pale appearance)

                Categorically true, this is for "Feng Shui", "Oi-ki-do or" ai-after.
                Quote: vorobey
                Drying there really was judging by the data of objective control

                And this is poker and the joker of the party and it can even with a high degree of probability not be shown.
                Quote: vorobey
                and even such a conspiracy theorist

              2. figter
                figter 14 October 2015 00: 48 New
                0
                vorobey
                as far as I know, Beech does not shoot on his own ... and even such a conspiracy theorist like I wouldn’t pass on such a technique to the militia because the taxi driver cannot quickly restore his skills even if he served on the beech ... the Americans won, too, the Patriots rebels transmit ... limited to Manual MANPADS ..

                And the very shoots themselves. For a long time in the sow 9А310 did not sit, and even now it is ready to "work." I will say even more, one thing is enough for me in the JMA, without calculation. More versatile than this machine so far nothing has been invented. Only Thor has something similar, but its range of defeat is too small.
            2. Sartorius
              Sartorius 15 October 2015 05: 22 New
              +1
              Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.


              The problem turns out. The militias didn’t detect anything more serious than MANPADS that they couldn’t overwhelm. There are so many U.S. American reconnaissance satellites over Ukraine that detecting Buk is not difficult. Moreover, the work of the radar complex is also detected at a time. Yes, see the Americans there our complexes they certainly would not be silent, such a gift would have been to escalate anti-Russian hysteria. And intelligence aids over the Ukrainians from the amers they have certainly collected immeasurably. Just as our Ministry of Defense did not become silent about the ukrov BUKs, there was an open report about how much and how many times. Moreover, ukrov already has the sad experience of firing at passenger planes (Tel Aviv-Novosibirsk flight in 2001). Conclusion: if the amers had at least one reliable photo of the presence of a beech from the militia, they would ring up right there. And they know very well who shot, because they themselves directed this story. Wanted our "western partners fool "repeat the story of the South Korean Boeing, but they worked foolishly dozens.
            3. Scraptor
              Scraptor 15 October 2015 06: 30 New
              +3
              Quote: atalef
              Militiamen shot down a Boeing, by mistake, in the frenzy that was at that time - to bring down the Ukrainian Air Force.

              And why didn’t another three passenger planes run over the course of 49 minutes in the same square? Fell down so until the vodka is over ...

              Quote: atalef
              the defeat of a missile air = air or another plane - is excluded. (Yes, it is not questioned, but simply excluded.

              excluded air ramming aircraft?

              There are 30mm holes on the Boeing’s cockpit. None of the Buck warheads 30mm shrapnel has. This is a 30mm air gun. Elements (I-beam parallelepiped, fraction, rods) of the warhead of a missile launcher are two to three times smaller. Maximum 13 * 13 * 8mm. Pictures for an I-beam + parallelepiped with their measurements are in the article. Holes can be found and measured on the photo of a Boeing’s cabin of good quality (and not like here).

              For the whole year and did not? So busy here because you get a lot of money? wassat
            4. aiden
              aiden 12 July 2017 01: 30 New
              0
              For some reason, I also think that the militias shot down. Although you probably remember how Ukraine shot down a plane flying to you. Which also speaks of handshake.
    8. papas-57
      papas-57 13 October 2015 18: 02 New
      +2
      '' Let them try to refute it. '' Useless. Whatever Russia says, whatever it does, the Western media will pervert so that it looks like an excuse and a juggling of facts. The culprits have already been appointed by Washington.
      1. Lunic
        Lunic 14 October 2015 01: 18 New
        +2
        Already refuted. In today's report on National Public Radio (USA) own
        Corridor Flintoff, an NPR correspondent in Moscow, commented on the following:

        (not verbatim) Russia in the Face of Almaz Anteya rejected the Dutch report as insolvent and erroneous. According to him, Almaz-Antey said that the missile that shot down MN17 was not 9M38M1 (as indicated in the Dutch report) but the older 9M38 which is not in service in the Russian Federation, but is in service in Ukraine. Further, Corry noted that the statements by AA (Almaz-Antey) about "elementary geometry" make no sense since the missile is missile-guided and therefore changes its flight path. The expensive full-scale test conducted by AA also means little since both objects were immovable, and MH17 and the rocket were moving at great speed ..
        Further, Corry continued:
        “From the photos of the beech tree that were published a year ago, they (probably his team) were able to determine the geolocation of the place where the picture was taken (not far from Toreza). Then they could even visit the place and make sure that this is the same place. They could not find not a single witness who saw Buk.
        When asked by the presenter about what he himself thinks of the disaster, Corry answered approximately as follows:
        I think that there really was a beech from the militias who possibly brought in from the Russian Federation. But it is unlikely that the militia would be able to shoot out of it since it is really a complex technique and requires certain skills. Most likely, Buk was controlled by a group of trained RF military ...

        Push:
        No government propaganda is needed. Public Radio, considered to be an independent liberal news resource in the United States with a multi-million audience, will do everything by itself ...
        1. Sukhoi
          Sukhoi 14 October 2015 12: 52 New
          +2
          Corry further noted that the statements by AA (Almaz-Antey) about "elementary geometry" make no sense since the missile is guided and therefore changes its flight path.

          As I understand it, the Buk missile is not playing catch-up, but flying to intercept the illuminated target. If the target does not maneuver, and the Boeing flew at one speed and did not change direction, then why would the rocket change its trajectory? Those. "Elementary geometry" roughly has an application here. Is not it?
    9. The comment was deleted.
    10. atalef
      atalef 13 October 2015 21: 12 New
      +5
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Almaz-Antey Concern presented a detailed report on the results of the experiment. Let them try to refute it. The truth will come out. It is a pity that a lot of time will pass.

      Well, what about the TFR version?
      They also have a state witness who passed on a lie detector. Or is this version no longer being considered? As with the negotiations of the dispatchers and the statement of the Defense Ministry with radar control, where representatives of the Defense Ministry unequivocally stated that the Boeing had been shot down by SU, I’m not talking about the photo published by Leontyev.
      As you all quickly surrendered and rushed to confirm the conclusions of Antei and the Dutch.
      And what, all the previous time, both the TFR and the Moscow Oblast - worked in vain and bullshit pushed people for half a year?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. qQQQ
        qQQQ 13 October 2015 21: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: atalef
        How did you all quickly surrender and rush to confirm the conclusions of Antey and the Dutch. And what, all the previous time, both the TFR and the MO worked in vain and bullshit pushed people for half a year?


        The previous versions have a right to exist, several versions can be given when they all get along together: an airplane attack, finished off with a beech, a random air defense missile defense (everyone knows about the Ukrainian arms of the Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners) the plane was redirected to see where it went and nobody canceled the control shot, really it hurt for Ukraine it was beneficial. Well, the witness did not say about the attack by plane, he said that the take-off was with explosives, and the landing was without, again, the competence of this technician is not confirmed anywhere and whether he can distinguish explosives from airplanes, hardly any launches were made in Ukraine. Something like this.
        1. atalef
          atalef 13 October 2015 22: 48 New
          +3
          Quote: qqqq
          The previous versions have a right to exist, several versions can be cited when they all get along together: an airplane attack, finished off with a beech, a random air defense missile system (everyone knows about the curvature of Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners)

          Has the right to exist ... and nothing more.
          You see very well that after the Dutch, and after Antei there are no differences.
          This is Buk, only the question remains - whose.
          Quote: qqqq
          Well, the witness did not say about the attack by plane, he said that the take-off was with BB missiles, and the landing was without, again, the competence of this technician is not confirmed anywhere and whether he can distinguish missiles B

          claimed and TFR claimed. giving him the status of state witness.
          Otherwise, why was all this circus?
          Not only claimed. but also gave the name of the pilot (whom the TFR accused of attacking the Boeing) - correct if I'm wrong?
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 13 October 2015 23: 12 New
            +4
            Quote: atalef
            claimed and TFR claimed. giving him the status of state witness.
            Otherwise, why was all this circus?
            Not only claimed. but also gave the name of the pilot (whom the TFR accused of attacking the Boeing) - correct if I'm wrong?


            And TFR recently claimed that Yatsenyuk tortured our soldiers in Chechnya ... Version? a bunch of versions are being put forward and they could argue and insist that the data of black boxes and negotiations with the dispatcher be published .. I read that the last 45 seconds of the pilots' life activity give a complete picture of everything that is happening, including the fact that the pilots saw the last .. Alas, no decryption of black boxes , no negotiations with the dispatcher can be seen ... you say this is not weird ..?
            1. xtur
              xtur 16 October 2015 12: 36 New
              0
              > And TFR recently claimed that Yatsenyuk tortured our soldiers in Chechnya ...

              But did the TFR provide the full passport data of this Yatsenyuk? TFR just went in for trolling, talking about the namesake of the Ukrainian Prime Minister
              1. aiden
                aiden 12 July 2017 01: 32 New
                0
                There was a video with an egg in Chechnya. And there he could do anything
          2. qQQQ
            qQQQ 14 October 2015 09: 09 New
            +1
            Quote: atalef
            Not only claimed. but also gave the name of the pilot (whom the TFR accused of attacking the Boeing) - correct if I'm wrong?

            As far as I remember, TFR put forward a version, and this is not a charge. Again, any version is a good reason, at least for verification. This is precisely what the TFR called for, so that the Dutch would come and work with our evidence, if they accuse us. Whether the witness spoke the truth or not is a rhetorical question, if, again, the Dutch took it seriously and worked with it, it would be clear, and this is a topic for speculation, moreover, in one direction and in the other.
            Quote: atalef
            You see very well that after the Dutch, and after Antei there are no differences.

            Antey could not discuss any other question, his task was to work out mathematically and in-situ the version with Buk. And again, this version does not in any way cross out the version with the aircraft, they can quite naturally complement each other. You just have to drop all politics and investigate objectively. Unfortunately this is not real.
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 14 October 2015 12: 12 New
              0
              Everything is real ... and the same dispatcher, the right-wing man, to be pulled out or “seized on his territory” as Ms MEP Savchenko.
              On the other hand, who really need GMOs, let Western intelligence services deal with them, their citizens died as well as aircraft equipment. Either pull it out and give it to the Malaysians to chop off something or take it to the Dutch doctor-euthanasiologist, or to sit comfortably like a Breivik.
              In their place, I wouldn’t send operatives for this - it’s not our problem, but it’s not for me to decide. From the point of view of common sense, such a type must at least be isolated (at least to a fool if not to prison) so as not to cause trouble, all sorts of different.
          3. The comment was deleted.
    11. Mih
      Mih 15 October 2015 02: 29 New
      -1
      Let them try to refute it. stop

      They will not be so. No need to throw a bisser in front of the pigs.
    12. Foxmara
      Foxmara 15 October 2015 10: 04 New
      0
      there is such a thing. The “opposite” side seems to live and act on the principle of believe / disbelieve. In any case, those who draw their line with us. Radio Liberty and Nezavisimaya Gazeta believe that there are no nasty arguments. Motivation - I chose the side and that's it. Democracy in action hi
    13. Oleg552
      Oleg552 16 October 2015 02: 38 New
      0
      Do not believe those who say that quitting smoking in a week is impossible. There is a special and really working technique that will save you from this addiction in a few days, here https://dmitrinosov.blogspot.ru link Itself could not quit for a very long time, but this time it really happened.
    14. iouris
      iouris 16 October 2015 14: 35 New
      0
      Poroshenko for $ 1000 will draw a cartoon about how everything was "really" and will refute the experiment, which cost a million.
  2. Victor bg
    Victor bg 13 October 2015 15: 25 New
    +12
    “Guilty” without us appointed even before the tragedy
    1. vovanpain
      vovanpain 13 October 2015 15: 34 New
      +14
      Quote: Victor BG
      “Guilty” without us appointed even before the tragedy

      But now it will be much more difficult for Washington to blame everything on the militia and on Russia.
      1. kil 31
        kil 31 13 October 2015 15: 50 New
        +6
        Quote: vovanpain

        But now it will be much more difficult for Washington to blame everything on the militia and on Russia.

        Well, for some reason, they say we were hit by a BUK. All shitty countries of the world have long known that our army is fighting there.
        1. vovanpain
          vovanpain 13 October 2015 16: 51 New
          +10
          Quote: Kil 31
          Quote: vovanpain

          But now it will be much more difficult for Washington to blame everything on the militia and on Russia.

          Well, for some reason, they say we were hit by a BUK. All shitty countries of the world have long known that our army is fighting there.

          By the way, LiveNews reported that the Dutch’s conclusion coincided with the conclusions of Almaz Antey. So far, Ukraine has been accused of not closing the air corridor through the war zone, and they are not authorized to indicate the true culprits of the tragedy.
          1. Lunic
            Lunic 14 October 2015 01: 23 New
            0
            According to the Dutch, the investigation did not set out to find the culprit.
            The task was to identify the cause of the disaster.
            In parallel, a criminal investigation is underway to establish the vinyl and to bring them to justice.
  3. Decathlon
    Decathlon 13 October 2015 15: 26 New
    +15
    Our beauties !!! But it seems to me that we use beads in front of pigs with a sword. No matter how blasphemous it may sound, these "Euroexperts" will be able to recognize, as irrefutable evidence, only the testimonies of a living passenger from a Boeing. Hush up the whole investigation!
    1. Zai pali
      Zai pali 13 October 2015 15: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: Decathlon
      Our beauties !!! But it seems to me that we use beads in front of pigs with a sword. No matter how blasphemous it may sound, these "Euroexperts" will be able to recognize, as irrefutable evidence, only the testimonies of a living passenger from a Boeing. Hush up the whole investigation!


      You need to express your point of view.
      1. Darkoff
        Darkoff 13 October 2015 15: 36 New
        +4
        Yes! Our well done! They do everything they can in this situation.
        I will add: it’s only bad that formally the West considers Russia, if not guilty, then an interested party. With this excuse, they will dismiss all our arguments.
        1. adept666
          adept666 13 October 2015 19: 15 New
          +4
          this excuse will dismiss all our arguments.
          Arguments can be dismissed, but facts are more complicated, there is data from a full-scale experiment, which can be repeated at any time in the presence of any commission, it will show that the missile which the crime was sewn could not be there because of the nature of the injuries that are and which no, but they should be there. Any simulation, and even more so a full-scale experiment, will show (since it is known by what laws the fragments fly apart) in which planes the warhead was at the moment of detonation, and this, in turn, indicates which side and how the rocket approached the target, and then knowing the characteristics of the rocket ( the type of which, with fragments and damaging elements, can be established with almost 100% probability) to narrow the area of ​​the alleged launch, into which the grassrookers poked their noses today and their report turned out to be essentially a repetition of the Russian version with inconclusive formulations: the Russian Federation agrees with us on many points, but It has comments on the type of rocket and the intended launch site, but we believe that we did everything right, sort of. As for our conference, everything is wonderful, but there is a remark, yet when they stutter and can’t connect a couple of words, having such weighty facts in their hands it looks somehow staged, therefore for the work of the Almazovites 5, for the conference 3, the concern is serious , with the name and you need to work on the image, the ability to firmly and convincingly express your thoughts ... But this IMHO smile
        2. atalef
          atalef 13 October 2015 21: 16 New
          +1
          Quote: DarkOFF
          Yes! Our well done! They do everything they can in this situation.

          Yes, even before Antei, at least 5 were presented, absolutely believable versions - though Buk was not in them.
    2. Aksakal_07
      Aksakal_07 13 October 2015 16: 51 New
      +2
      And what could passengers say if they all survived? Would they say that they saw at what angle and in what azimuth a rocket flew up? They that saw everything and looked with all eyes waiting, from where and, most importantly, from whom, the trouble will come?
    3. veksha50
      veksha50 13 October 2015 17: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Decathlon
      these "euroexperts" will be able to recognize as irrefutable evidence, only evidence living passenger from a Boeing.



      And if you clone one of them from a DNA cell ???

      PS I know that a bad joke ...
      1. Ural resident
        Ural resident 13 October 2015 20: 33 New
        +2
        I don’t understand in this situation - why did they give the Dutch at all? If our coalitions could be put together so quickly - they took the wreckage to themselves - they would invite the Malaysians and a couple of other states to conduct an investigation themselves. This sometimes impermissible loyalty to our enemies - that they will not go against the truth anyway - then turns to us sideways. In the West, everyone is already convinced that the Boeing was "shot down by Putin" and it will be difficult to convince them of the opposite. There was a clearly prepared provocation - as soon as this event happened, all the other howls howled as if on command. I called my relative in London - she already had an opinion formed - Putin a fascist - destroyed a peaceful plane. There propaganda works powerfully. And it was not clear to me - why they had given up the debris - they themselves would have investigated it.
  4. Engineer
    Engineer 13 October 2015 15: 26 New
    +7
    No expert can better prove or disprove the conclusions of Almaz-Antey
    1. veksha50
      veksha50 13 October 2015 17: 15 New
      +1
      Quote: Engineer
      No expert can better prove or disprove the conclusions of Almaz-Antey



      Ukrainian - easily !!!
  5. serg1970
    serg1970 13 October 2015 15: 26 New
    +5
    The Netherlands has already flashed its report. NOTHING about anything!
    They only said that it was a BUK, but on the modification of the disagreement. The launch area is such that anyone could shoot. Only Ukrainians indicated the exact starting point in their opinion (without witnesses and calculations). Well, a couple of videos about how to collect the debris and the reconstruction process showed. In short epic file.
  6. Zai pali
    Zai pali 13 October 2015 15: 27 New
    +2
    Western bullshit will not work.
  7. Igor39
    Igor39 13 October 2015 15: 29 New
    +3
    So the Dutch also presented a report, a Boeing was shot down by a Russian-made rocket and said from where they immediately told everyone from the militia, but the lawyer for the dead said that the lawsuits would be filed both against Ukraine and Russia.
    And why didn’t I understand Russia.
  8. Egevich
    Egevich 13 October 2015 15: 30 New
    +1
    "... but truth is more expensive" ...
  9. katalonec2014
    katalonec2014 13 October 2015 15: 30 New
    +1
    Worked ahead of schedule, that's right, let them now try to push their "clumsy" version.
  10. Stas Karpov
    Stas Karpov 13 October 2015 15: 31 New
    -34
    There is the International Commission, and it’s just that a certain group made a “counter move” on the instructions to dust the brains of cotton wool. Who authorized him at all?
    Here is an article http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/27304059.html, where all the arguments of Almaz-Antey are refuted.
    1. katalonec2014
      katalonec2014 13 October 2015 15: 41 New
      +7
      A certain concern, be afraid of God, Almaz-Antey designed it, and draw conclusions for him.
    2. qQQQ
      qQQQ 13 October 2015 15: 53 New
      +7
      Quote: Stas Karpov
      There is the International Commission, and it’s just that a certain group made a “counter move” on the instructions to dust the brains of cotton wool. Who authorized him at all? Here is the article http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/27304059.html, where all the arguments of Almaz-Antey are refuted.


      I did not see any refutation, the Dutch version and the testimonies of some volunteers are given, probably from the Censor. In general, I am once again convinced that Ukraine lives in the world of its fantasies.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Volodin
      13 October 2015 15: 54 New
      +10
      A certain authorized Stas, and why don’t you make references to Bibigon or Kukhni-TV, the “Almaz-Antei” refuting arguments?
    5. reservist
      reservist 13 October 2015 16: 57 New
      +7
      Quote: Stas Karpov
      ... dust the brains of cotton wool

      Of course, we are cotton quilted jackets with cotton wool instead of brains ...
      and it’s impossible to powder the brains of heroes ... due to the lack of them ...
    6. reservist
      reservist 13 October 2015 17: 13 New
      +5
      Quote: Stas Karpov
      ... all the arguments of Almaz-Antey are refuted.

      Have you read the article yourself?
      if from the article on the Dutch conclusions “squeeze water”, then in the “dry residue” we get:
      - Malaysian Airlines plane flew through a dangerous area, knowing about it
      - Ukraine did not close the sky over the dangerous area, knowing that the area is dangerous
      - the plane was shot down by a beech missile

      where and in what did you see the refutation of the conclusions of specialists from Almaz-Antey?
    7. Lunic
      Lunic 13 October 2015 17: 58 New
      +1
      Yeah, refuted by whom? A commission of professionals with access to primary sources and technical expertise?
      Quote from your link:
      The Almaz-Antey version that the rocket was launched from the Ukrainian-controlled village of Zaroshchenskoye was also previously refuted, in particular, in an investigation into the international volunteer groups Bellingcat. According to its participants, the date on satellite images presented by Almaz-Antey, in which the Ukrainian Buki are visible in Zaroshchenskoye, is falsified, and polls in this village showed that none of them saw or heard the rocket launch on July 17 - unlike the village of Snezhnoye, where there are such witnesses.
      On this site we are all such "Volunteer Experts"
    8. aiden
      aiden 12 July 2017 01: 40 New
      0
      Troll go to the censor. And cotton wool in your head instead of brains. You have the Russian flag from the fact that vpn is turned on or from the fact that in Russia you are hiding from the draft, or you work for Russia. In any case, there is a commercial offer for you. You need to do what you are doing now. More in hp.
      And by the way, you can immediately see shkolota, since you put the movie character in FD (I will not talk about underdevelopment, I hope everything is fine with this). Conclusion - you are a bulk minion who is 14-16 years old, who pays taxes, but they are plundered;)
  11. AlexTires
    AlexTires 13 October 2015 15: 33 New
    +10
    Boeing did not work. Single shot. West and Ukrainians killed about 300 people. Without causing harm to the whole Planet.
  12. Dezinto
    Dezinto 13 October 2015 15: 33 New
    +11
    Now Psaki Puki Nolty Tolty will speak and on them with one unsubstantiated piece of paper he will inform that - "all the best" - there is no other way .... they haven’t come up with their own shit ....

    Well, what? - and all official Europe will pick up - and say - Yes! - Ameeeika law - albeit without evidence, - and the Russian experiment is false and filmed on a mosfilm ......


    I hope of course that will not be so. But I won’t be surprised. sad

    It’s easy for them! - "the dumber the lie, the easier it is to rub it in" (c) - Captain America.



    Russians conduct experiments, analysis, analysis of physical data. And what do you need usa? - simplicity is needed in the usa ..... finally you will not go into details .....

    And (not all) the world will say - yes we believe your test tubes! - because 800! US military bases scattered across continents.
  13. semuil
    semuil 13 October 2015 15: 35 New
    +6
    Now they will say that the 777th and 86th are so different planes that the striking elements of the rocket hit them at different angles.
  14. Prutkov
    Prutkov 13 October 2015 15: 39 New
    +9
    Since the Dutch failed to determine who shot, it means that Russia has every right to make claims against countries that have imposed sanctions against it. I think that the total zeros will not be small.
  15. Makarov
    Makarov 13 October 2015 15: 40 New
    +5
    the Dutch have already released their findings. Boeing Report: Ukraine was supposed to close the sky and the Boeing was hit by a Buk missile
  16. Gormenghast
    Gormenghast 13 October 2015 15: 43 New
    +10
    Almaz-Antey is experimenting; even the plane (though decommissioned) butchered; and what does a powerful international investigation team do for 15 months?

    Striking elements how much time "searched"?

    And, in general, if they shot down a Buka missile, why are there no representatives of the rocket manufacturer in this investigation team?

    If Ukraine is under suspicion, why is Ukraine (the suspect!) Included in the commission, but Russia is not?
    1. kizhe
      kizhe 13 October 2015 16: 35 New
      +2
      Than than. The same as the international coalition in Syria. The cat is pulled for ya.ts.a.
    2. sir.jonn
      sir.jonn 13 October 2015 17: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: Gormengast
      Almaz-Antey is experimenting; even the plane (though decommissioned) butchered; and what does a powerful international investigation team do for 15 months?

      Striking elements how much time "searched"?

      And, in general, if they shot down a Buka missile, why are there no representatives of the rocket manufacturer in this investigation team?

      If Ukraine is under suspicion, why is Ukraine (the suspect!) Included in the commission, but Russia is not?

      So it will be easier to declare bias and incompetence of the conclusions of the commission, a report in our favor can be fabricated even with the participation of Russian specialists in the commission.
  17. pts-m
    pts-m 13 October 2015 15: 44 New
    +3
    what to send to these echo alcohols all over the world. it’s easier to carry out a natural case. and for this you need to ... put the entire urine-ruin guide into a Boeing and send them to the height at which the downed Malaysian Boeing flew. to shoot it with its own rocket and it will be clear who and whose dog is pissing ...
  18. VNP1958PVN
    VNP1958PVN 13 October 2015 15: 44 New
    +1
    There is one saying, they at least "sssy" in the eyes, all God's dew! But they don’t know our sayings and don’t want it until the 45th again!
  19. 33 Watcher
    33 Watcher 13 October 2015 15: 45 New
    +2
    But what about the report of the commission from the Netherlands? Crap! About nothing. As I thought...
    1. Gormenghast
      Gormenghast 13 October 2015 18: 11 New
      +3
      It seems that the most absurd ukro-version has been cut off: bestial quilted jackets brought the Russian Buk to Ukraine, took aim, fired, and unnoticedly brought the Buk back.

      The sane citizens (and not only Russia) a priori understood that this was terrible nonsense.

      Now the addicts themselves wrote in the report that they used a rocket that has not been produced in Russia for a long time and which has reached all the warranty periods.

      And the rocket launch point was not voiced; only the obvious truth remained that the Boeing was shot down over the territory of Ukraine. So let him answer; in a company with a carrier who risked "flying" over the territory of military operations.
  20. iouris
    iouris 13 October 2015 15: 46 New
    +4
    There are no experts at all in the Dutch commission. These people are engaged in industrial safety in everyday life. Neither the conclusions of the Western “commission” nor Russian experiments will lead to consensus. The only thing that is indisputable, the carrier is to blame for the deaths.
    1. Gormenghast
      Gormenghast 13 October 2015 18: 14 New
      +1
      An expert on the missile used can only be a competent representative of its manufacturer, who was not on the commission.

      We do not "expertize" the Tomahawks.

      Accordingly, an incompetent "competent" team is a solid obscurantism, in the form of divination on the fingers.
  21. Stinger
    Stinger 13 October 2015 15: 49 New
    +4
    It would be nice for the “Dutch specialists” before making statements about the direction of impact on the plane, to repeat the school geometry course


    \ Yes, and it would not be bad to study the rules for investigating such incidents. I remember how Kuchma fought back from the accusation of the death of TU-154 over the Crimea. I was bothered to the last, supposedly dill is not capable of it. They are older than dinosaurs, etc. .. And even when they locked it, they still did not pay the victims' relatives.
  22. Funnels
    Funnels 13 October 2015 15: 51 New
    +4
    .The guilty were appointed even before the Boeing was shot down, there were simply a lot of doubters, and Russia With the submission of the sacrificial bull-calf with her mane did not shake: “yes, this is us, forgive us.” Now the SGA and Co. ° turnip scales, how to ward off wards .
  23. ARES623
    ARES623 13 October 2015 15: 52 New
    +5
    I listened to the guy from Diamond on TV. I enjoyed the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the work done on the Diamond. It’s like from Caspians. Let's look at the reaction of the authors of the disaster. It is clear that all the bumps will be loaded in our direction, but the opinion of ordinary people who have suffered from it will most likely be for our expertise. We will see ....
  24. Not served
    Not served 13 October 2015 15: 53 New
    +3
    All those who found out who pulled during a fight in a passerby very skillfully took away from the main issue, which the Dutch, by the way, promised to cover.
    And what actually did the civilian side in the area of ​​military operations and working air defense. Who was in charge of the plane
    The board was accepted by the Ukrainian navigation and escort service on its territory, which means that it bears full responsibility for it. If everything is not calm in your country, then there is no need to carry out airplanes there.
    1. Not served
      Not served 13 October 2015 17: 20 New
      +2
      Already gone more pragmatic dvizhuha
      Relatives of the victims of the passengers of the Boeing 777 of flight MH17 may file lawsuits against the authorities of Ukraine on the fact that they did not close the sky for overflights over the territory of Donbass, where the hostilities were fought. This was told to RBC by the lawyer of the Dutch law office ATS Viru Maiva, representing the interests of 76 members of the families of passengers of MH17.
      Maiva specified that he would study all the materials and then file lawsuits, if possible. “Immediately after the presentation of the report, my clients called me for advice: they want to understand how realistic it is to file claims against the Ukrainian authorities. The report concluded that the territory of this part of Ukraine should have been closed to flights. I told my clients that I need to study the report in detail: if there are sufficient reasons, lawsuits against Ukraine may be filed, ”he said.
      Read more at RBC:
      http://www.rbc.ru/politics/13/10/2015/561d045a9a79473330a9ee26
      1. sir.jonn
        sir.jonn 13 October 2015 18: 04 New
        0
        Quote: Not served
        Already gone more pragmatic dvizhuha
        Relatives of the victims of the passengers of the Boeing 777 of flight MH17 may file lawsuits against the authorities of Ukraine on the fact that they did not close the sky for overflights over the territory of Donbass, where the hostilities were fought. This was told to RBC by the lawyer of the Dutch law office ATS Viru Maiva, representing the interests of 76 members of the families of passengers of MH17.
        Maiva specified that he would study all the materials and then file lawsuits, if possible. “Immediately after the presentation of the report, my clients called me for advice: they want to understand how realistic it is to file claims against the Ukrainian authorities. The report concluded that the territory of this part of Ukraine should have been closed to flights. I told my clients that I need to study the report in detail: if there are sufficient reasons, lawsuits against Ukraine may be filed, ”he said.
        Read more at RBC:
        http://www.rbc.ru/politics/13/10/2015/561d045a9a79473330a9ee26

        But is this not preparing the ground for jamming things? So to say, apologize with a crocodile tear in your eye, pay compensation, in the press they will hide something and embellish it. As a result, everything is small and fluffy.
  25. bmv04636
    bmv04636 13 October 2015 15: 54 New
    +2
    We are waiting for the drain of information on the negotiation of military dispatchers. My question is, could a Su-25 direct a Buk missile onto a plane?
    1. solovey
      solovey 13 October 2015 16: 19 New
      +3
      No, I could not !!!
      Here, something else is embarrassing - the wind was 3-5 m / s in this situation, the trace from the Buk missile should remain at least 15-20 minutes (and not frail) !!!! what
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 14 October 2015 07: 09 New
        0
        There’s something else that bothers you - 30mm hits on a Boeing and not 13, 8 or 5 mm. On the Su-25 there is just the same gun lol so Diamond plays some strange games ...
  26. drags33
    drags33 13 October 2015 15: 55 New
    +6
    One can confidently say about the work of the Dutch "commission": "The mountain gave birth to a mouse ..." Complete incompetence, confusing and illogical explanations, a superficial approach - all this was fully shown by the "commission". The degradation of the Westerners is astounding - they cannot even lie likely !!!
  27. Riv
    Riv 13 October 2015 16: 08 New
    +2
    A very competent move, and made exactly one day before the publication of the Dutch report. And it’s too late to polish something in the report, and it will not work to ignore it. In principle, expected. It was clear from the very beginning that a parallel investigation would be conducted. The wreckage fell on the territory controlled by the militia. Ours had the opportunity to examine corpses and study damage to structures. Of course, this opportunity was taken.
    Because the Dutch pulled for so long with the report. What was difficult: to extract the damaging elements from the bodies? But in the end, the report still turned out about nothing.
  28. DmitryK
    DmitryK 13 October 2015 16: 08 New
    0
    . In Soviet times, 9M38 missiles were delivered to Ukraine. Accurate data on the quantity of such ammunition in the Ukrainian army has not been preserved to date. Eprst .... The author of the statement is a victim of the EG
  29. Arktidianets
    Arktidianets 13 October 2015 16: 09 New
    +3
    What kind of P.I.doraces, they are Dutch, what can we expect from them, assholes
    1. Gormenghast
      Gormenghast 13 October 2015 18: 18 New
      +2
      and drug addicts also. laughing

      That is, a complete set of democratic freedoms.
  30. catyrn2
    catyrn2 13 October 2015 16: 09 New
    +2
    Now zapadentsy will begin to scribble their cheap articles about falsification.
  31. evil partisan
    evil partisan 13 October 2015 16: 12 New
    0
    What is there on the Censor with farts? wink Who is in the know?
  32. kuz363
    kuz363 13 October 2015 16: 15 New
    +1
    But what about the alleged fragments in the form of an I-beam from the 9M38M1 rocket? Why do they not coincide with the rectangular openings in the aircraft body?
  33. Kelwin
    Kelwin 13 October 2015 16: 24 New
    +2
    Quote: kuz363
    But what about the alleged fragments in the form of an I-beam from the 9M38M1 rocket? Why do they not coincide with the rectangular openings in the aircraft body?

    Because it’s just a forgery, in full accordance with the European understanding of international law. Only when the dust is dispersed will it be very difficult for some to wash themselves off from sewage. Moreover, judging by the Dutch report, it has already begun to reach them.
  34. kirpich
    kirpich 13 October 2015 16: 31 New
    +1
    The Russian concern Almaz-Antey (JSC Concern PVO Almaz-Antey), ahead of the so-called international investigation team (in common, the “Dutch experts”), presented a report on the results of a full-scale experiment, which allows to draw final conclusions about what was the main cause of the crash of a Boeing 777 aircraft of a Malaysian airline.


    It seems that this is not a report, but a voiced slap in the face to "Dutch experts" who wanted to give a "PRESENTATION".
  35. kirpich
    kirpich 13 October 2015 16: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: Stinger
    I remember how Kuchma fought back from the accusation of the death of TU-154 over the Crimea. I was bothered to the last, supposedly dill is not capable of it. They are older than dinosaurs, etc. .. And even when they locked it, they still did not pay the victims' relatives.



    No, "PROFESSOR" claimed to have paid quietly so as not to fan the international conflict.
  36. kizhe
    kizhe 13 October 2015 16: 47 New
    0
    Now the Dutch will begin to fight back and dig in, defending their conclusions, nodding to the fact that in the "rush" could make some inaccuracies and mistakes.
  37. VadimSt
    VadimSt 13 October 2015 16: 50 New
    0
    What and how, it was clear to the hedgehog, a year ago ....
    I want to draw the attention of the "writers" to the presentation in Kiev of the film "Raid", which the junta presents as a documentary. I think that in the near future, someone will try to cover this topic and debunk frank information nonsense when they try to imagine the APU attack on militias as deep raids of Ukrainian landing (400 km) on Russian-occupied territory, and shameful defeats as the greatest victories, who ... came to study American military theorists.
    There is no doubt that there will be such an article, and therefore I draw the attention of the future author to one article ("Hero of Ukraine Sergey Sobko:" There were times when only the prayers of loved ones saved us "), where one of the heroes presented at the presentation of this film is still a month ago he gave an interview about his “successes” and “victories.” In which he told that “everything was successful,” there was only a successful escape from the next boiler.
  38. kostavit
    kostavit 13 October 2015 17: 11 New
    -20
    We all living near Snezhny know: Boeing was knocked down from a beech, which they brought to the Donbass. Why come up with other versions, turn on the logic ...
    1. reservist
      reservist 13 October 2015 17: 19 New
      +9
      and personally saw the trace of the rocket?

      it would be more correct to write
      Quote: kostavit
      Мы everything, daughters of officersliving near Snow know ...
    2. opus
      opus 13 October 2015 18: 17 New
      +6
      Quote: kostavit
      Boeing shot down from a beech, which was brought to the Donbass.

      Armed Forces of Ukraine?
      Result of the Danes: Launch area of ​​320 sq. Km.

      The same Donbas
      in the area of ​​n.p. Zaroshchenskoye, according to space intelligence data of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on July 17.07.2014, XNUMX, self-propelled firing systems of the Buk air defense system of the Ukrainian Armed Forces were located.

      moreover, a full-fledged SAM, and not a single self-propelled gun

      then I agree.

      question why? the militia didn’t have an air force; the air forces of the Russian Federation did not see it.


      If you are "subtly hinting" at the RF Armed Forces, then:
      1.classical
      Whose prodest?
      The biggest benefits from Boeing were gained by the USA (otherwise it would not be possible to create an international coalition) and Ukraine (it would not exist anymore)
      For Russia, only hemorrhoids.
      2. If you already "brought" to Snezhnoye ONLY 1nu SOU without KP, SOTs, ROM, units of technical support and maintenance, communications platoon ...
      That would probably be smart enough to put in a first-class crew, but not militiamen from former hairdressers, drivers, and conscripts of the RF Armed Forces can’t be imprisoned (leaking)
      Then it’s not clear how they could mix up the Boeing with the aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? (Flight level, speed, EPR, etc.)
      as shown in paragraph 1, knocking down a Boeing for the Russian Federation is pointless and very harmful

      Threat defeat the goal only with the SDA is certainly possible, but this is not a trivial task.
      even more so when there at that moment
      3. On launching a rocket from anywhere in the Snezhnoye area with striking elements only the bow of the aircraft would be affected, and there could be no damage to the wing, engine, and especially the stabilizer and tail.

      But from Zaroschensky, yes.
      1. Falcon
        Falcon 14 October 2015 08: 52 New
        0
        Quote: opus
        If you are "subtly hinting" at the RF Armed Forces, then:
        1.classical
        Whose prodest?
        The biggest benefits from Boeing were gained by the USA (otherwise it would not be possible to create an international coalition) and Ukraine (it would not exist anymore)
        For Russia, only hemorrhoids.


        No matter whose benefit, it is important who managed.

        You are an intelligent person, how much can you believe in propaganda?

        On July 17, on the day of the Boeing 777 disaster, state-run news agencies ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti announced that "militias" shot down an AN-26 aircraft near the town of Torez

        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 14 October 2015 11: 46 New
          0
          If you were an intelligent person, then you would understand that according to reports a large plane similar to the An-26 crashed from the ground, that's why they reported ... The militias do not have air defense control centers of the country.
          Small usually fell Su-25. Both that and another were decentrally knocked down by militias and did not fall by itself. So, if it fell, the militias shot down ... If the two-sided and large, then - An-26. No one could have imagined that the APU would bring down their own or even a “neutral” twin-engine airliner (similar to the An-26).
          Then when we arrived at the place and began to sort out what had fallen - the opinion of what had happened, and therefore the blog, was changed. A loan on the site incorrect information, and even such?
          1. opus
            opus 14 October 2015 11: 59 New
            +1
            Quote: Scraptor
            Militias have no Country Air Defense Command Centers.

            That's right. I would also add that the militia, at that time (since spring), pressed all the power of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (you can make fun of poopers, but it was like the 2nd Army in Europe), a country with a population of 40 million people. -2 million people, without full-time aircraft.
            to the Opolechniks any victory (or the myth of victory) was needed like air.
            Therefore, their (and our) inform agencies recorded on the militia’s combat account, all that is possible.
            And the "shot down" air defense of the TR militia. Tochka-u, and IS-3, which went to the front line.
            In principle, blaming them for stuffing is not correct. Recall Sovinformbyurov 1941-1942, when it was very difficult. Or the Reich Propaganda Ministry in 1944-1945
      2. Falcon
        Falcon 14 October 2015 09: 20 New
        +2
        Quote: opus
        1.classical
        Whose prodest?
        The biggest benefits from Boeing were gained by the USA (otherwise it would not be possible to create an international coalition) and Ukraine (it would not exist anymore)
        For Russia, only hemorrhoids.


        No matter whose benefit, it is important who managed.

        You are an intelligent person, how much can you believe in propaganda?

        On July 17, on the day of the Boeing 777 disaster, state news agencies ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti announced that the "militias" shot down the AN-26 aircraft near the city of Torez / you can see:

        http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017,

        http://ria.ru/world/20140717/1016409306.html

        Igor Girkin (Strelkov) in the evening of the same day reports on social networks that the "militias" shot down the plane. Here:

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658499310886339&set=a.233159876753620.52


        584.100001788291627 & type = 1
        [img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10494575_65849
        9310886339_577220331649806115_n.jpg?oh=e8f69246ef58e9caa5ea64c442188d8b&oe=56C84
        9AB [/ img]

        Shortly before the plane crash, the Kremlin media — NTV, Russia 24, and others — informed the Russian audience that Buk anti-aircraft missile systems had appeared in Donbass militias. look:

        http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1741703&tid=105474

        In an interview with Reuters, in particular, one of the leaders of the militia Alexander Khodakovsky said this:

        http://www.svoboda.org/media/video/25468582.html

        Indirectly, the representative of Russia to the UN Vitaly Churkin admitted guilt of the militia for the downed Boeing. I did not have time to get the installation on top crying

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzSdsrpzDTw&feature=youtu.be&t=4m13s

        Quote: opus
        That would probably be smart enough to put in a first-class crew, but not militiamen from former hairdressers, drivers, and conscripts of the RF Armed Forces can’t be imprisoned (leaking)
        Then it’s not clear how they could mix up the Boeing with the aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? (Flight level, speed, EPR, etc.)


        Looks were not enough. Then our valiant Moscow Defense Ministry already compromised themselves:

        Four days after the crash, Channel One of Russian television voiced a version of the General Staff that the Boeing was shot down by the Ukrainian attack aircraft SU-25

        http://www.1tv.ru/news/polit/263583

        Even the main witness appeared: Yevgeny Agapov, chief mechanic. Well, how so. Where is he now in the Almaz-Antey report ???

        Well, the apogee: Another resonant “version” was voiced by the odious Kremlin propagandist Mikhail Leontyev. In November’s Channel One program on 14, he announced that he had at his disposal a “sensational shot,” allegedly taken by a foreign spy satellite in the last seconds of the Malaysian Boeing 777’s flight over Ukraine. This photo, according to Leontyev, confirmed that the Boeing was shot down by the MiG-29 fighter jet pursuing it.

        http://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824

        In my opinion there is enough evidence. Both the Moscow Region and our government have long since compromised themselves so much that the Almaz-Antey report is somehow no longer comme il faut ... Previously, we had to think ... crying
        1. opus
          opus 14 October 2015 11: 47 New
          +4
          Quote: Falcon
          You are an intelligent person, how much can you believe in propaganda?

          Thanks for being smart. hi New propaganda I do not believe.

          When the family informed me about the shooting down, I was “in the field”, I myself didn’t hear it, but I explained to them by telephone (with the mothers). They still remember, I was not mistaken.
          Quote: Falcon
          SU-25

          in the summer with all my friends ... re-pressured, maybe, even vaf fiddled with the PM
          "Well, I do not agree."
          As for MIG, SU or SAM, it was possible to determine the name of the corpses or soft parts of the liner in a day.
          The striking element is a type of weapon. All.
          All the insinuations of the Investigative Committee, the Prosecutor's Office, the first channel are not interesting to me there.
          I don’t believe Leontiev at all (and did not). Well, can you believe the person who works at Rosneft on such a good salary?
          Quote: Falcon
          Both the Moscow Region and our government have long since compromised themselves so much that the Almaz-Antey report is somehow no longer comme il faut ...

          and MO and the government gave only versions.
          No one has approved (report) 100%.
          Stupid RSI report, I did not even read it completely.
          Fake satellite photography - caused a laugh.
          ====================================================================== ================
          Let's think so.
          1. Suppose this was a provocation (special operation) of ours.
          So blasphemous, at the level of Dr. Goebels, or worse.
          2. Objective: to discredit Ukraine, the United States and part of Europe, which supplied weapons to the Armed Forces of Ukraine and supported everything.
          3. Means to an end: terrorist attack.
          Let's say a passenger airliner was shot down over Ukraine, pretending that the Ukrainian Armed Forces did it.
          4. Object of manipulation: well, in my opinion there should be a Russian airliner.
          It’s simpler (it’s also possible to put a destructible radio transponder, and this is necessary, because the movements are intense there), course, level and so on (all this is obtained in real time and simplifies the knowledge base), then it’s easier to hide what happened.
          A terrorist attack with our airliner would already be No. 2 on the "conscience" of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. That would make it possible to close the issue with Crimea altogether and send troops into the DPR or LPR, or force the APU to peace.
          And no one in the West would have "blabbed", well, Psaki, really.
          It's cruel, I don’t think so, it's just a version
          but what do we really have?
          Boeing of Malaysia with passengers of the Netherlands.
          Meaning?
          very little.
          It’s silly to drag 1SUO into the territory (the task of shooting down isn’t trivial due to the specifics of the operation of the SSS, but it’s as if by itself, and its radar data are used, new SAM, as a rule. The vertical angles are there)
          Shoot down the beech air defense system after yelling that they captured ..
          Well, as it is not reasonable.
          In general, there are many such indirect arguments.
          But if you already decided (damn it, how to be a leak in our time), then it should be enough to do the brains NORMALLY.
          but here it’s not very.
          Still embarrassing. When starting from Snezhny: within a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.
          It would be enough time to shoot (for all mobile phones).
          But where the full-time part is deployed, with all its attendants, it’s difficult, but possible.
          But this level of cover cannot be provided not by militias, nor terrorists, nor mythical advisers of the RF Armed Forces
          1. opus
            opus 14 October 2015 11: 49 New
            +1
            ================================================== =======
            but if it was a special operation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, everything agrees. And the behavior of many (both in Ukraine and beyond) converges. And all this is beneficial to them (this is what history has shown). And it’s done in the same way as the entire ATO.
            And the fact that our media and other throats (like Leontyev) gave out different versions, like hot cakes: it’s understandable
            1. Propaganda, fighting spirit
            2.not knowledge of physics, geometry, IEE at the level of grade 10
            3.Rating and denyuzhka for rating
            well, etc ... uff tired of writing
            1. Falcon
              Falcon 14 October 2015 12: 28 New
              0
              Quote: opus
              but if it was a special operation of the APU, it all fits together.


              Nothing converges. As you know, we see straws in the eyes of others, we do not notice logs in our own eyes.

              Quote: opus
              1. Suppose this was a provocation (special operation) of ours.
              So blasphemous, at the level of Dr. Goebels, or worse.
              2. Objective: to discredit Ukraine, the United States and part of Europe, which supplied weapons to the Armed Forces of Ukraine and supported everything.
              3. Means to an end: terrorist attack.
              Let's say a passenger airliner was shot down over Ukraine, pretending that the Ukrainian Armed Forces did it.
              4. Object of manipulation: well, in my opinion there should be a Russian airliner.
              It’s simpler (it’s also possible to put a destructible radio transponder, and this is necessary, because the movements are intense there), course, level and so on (all this is obtained in real time and simplifies the knowledge base), then it’s easier to hide what happened.
              A terrorist attack with our airliner would already be No. 2 on the "conscience" of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. That would make it possible to close the issue with Crimea altogether and send troops into the DPR or LPR, or force the APU to peace.
              And no one in the West would have "blabbed", well, Psaki, really.


              We expropriate this to the situation with Ukraine. Same:

              Quote: opus
              It's cruel, I don’t think so, it's just a version


              Those. we cannot, but they can !?
              Not really, without Boeing, and so stinks are enough: annexation, intervention, etc.

              And the West will not approve - there the value of human life is much higher ..

              Quote: opus
              Still embarrassing. When starting from Snezhny: within a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.
              It would be enough time to shoot (for all mobile phones).


              Photo see

              But what about Zaroschenskoe?
              Quote: opus
              When starting from ******: in a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.
              It would be enough time to shoot (for all mobile phones).


              Where???
              1. opus
                opus 14 October 2015 12: 52 New
                +1
                Quote: Falcon
                Those. we cannot, but they can !?

                and we can and they.
                But it is very difficult for us to do this on the territory of the DPR, LPR.
                It is easier for them to carry out from the ATO control zone adjacent to the territory of the militias, and at times.
                Quote: Falcon
                But what about Zaroschenskoe?

                What is the control of the ATO military group (let’s be correct for all APUs) and the launch from there and the launch from the territory where 2-3000 militants hang out?
                Militias and regime will not be able to provide
                And with Zarechenky, when the APU arrived, everyone fled (they had where)
                Quote: Falcon
                Where???

                Something I remember about this photo.
                but not convincing. Checked
                1.not such weather was over Snezhny. Cloud cover.
                2. A rather high-quality shot and lack of video are alarming, time was
                3. Well this photo appeared very late.
                I am not a fake exposer and I don’t know those places.
                Let the "experts" take this photo apart.

                (purely my opinion is a volley of shell)
          2. Falcon
            Falcon 14 October 2015 12: 10 New
            +1
            Quote: opus
            and MO and the government gave only versions.
            No one has approved (report) 100%.


            I agree, version.

            But here, as it were, the Su-25 was either on the radar, or was not. And he rose to the height of a possible launch, or not. Or do they want to say that the Su-25 was up, but launched a rocket or not, they don’t know?

            But what about the main witness:


            No one refutes his presence and testimony.

            Quote: opus
            So blasphemous, at the level of Dr. Goebels, or worse.

            Quote: opus
            It's cruel, I don’t think so, it's just a version


            Tough, and it won’t work. The result is not in our favor. The whole west cannot be outweighed by arguments.

            Quote: opus
            Shoot down the beech air defense system after yelling that they captured ..
            Well, as it is not reasonable.


            Why not? No one was aiming at the Boeing. Prior to this incident, 3 aircraft, Il-76 An-30 An-26, were shot down.

            We felt the power, took it for a transporter - a calculation of the militias ... Well, maybe our “consultant”. His competence is also doubtful, he dealt with some officers ... It would be better to have a shallow yard than wearing shoulder straps.

            Quote: opus
            Still embarrassing. When starting from Snezhny: within a radius of 2 km you would hear, well, you would see even more.


            1. opus
              opus 14 October 2015 13: 00 New
              0
              Quote: Falcon
              But here, as it were, either the Su-25 was on radar, or was not.

              was very likely.
              As for "rising" - on 10 km - no (oa MO didn’t say this, there is another train)
              RVV launch from the satellite is not detected
              Quote: Falcon
              But what about the main witness:

              This witness says that RVV was before take-off, but it was not at landing.

              Quote: Falcon
              Tough, and it won’t work.

              no. if it was done, as I said (well, or so it was intended), it would work 100%.
              But I hope such a wonderful thought did not arise.
              This is not a bag of powder that looks like RDX in the entrance of a house.
              Quote: Falcon
              Why not? No one was aiming at the Boeing.

              Well, if there was ONE OMS, for some reason. There sat a first-class combat crew.
              Boeing from Il or en, and even on the echelon, which is led by the dispatcher of Ukraine and is ready to pick up the dispatcher of Russia ..
              Could distinguish.
              believe me.
              If they did OTs, were escorted, pointed, the automation gave the green light ... then they knew why they shot.
              Quote: Falcon
              calculation of militias ...

              this is not serious.
              the calculation of the militias will not even be able to prepare the MSA for shooting, even if there is a consultant.
              Quote: Falcon
              dealt with some officers ..

              Well, in the air defense units (now it is the airborne forces) it is still not so bad.
              In 2007, I would agree.
              In 2014, it doesn’t.
              1. Falcon
                Falcon 14 October 2015 15: 30 New
                0
                Quote: opus
                As for "rising" - on 10 km - no (oa MO didn’t say this, there is another train)


                not on 10, of course, they drew graphics there, they say he did a slide.

                Quote: opus
                Well, if there was ONE OMS, for some reason. There sat a first-class combat crew.


                We took part of the air defense systems with beech complexes
                http://www.novoross.info/politiks/27437-u-doneckih-opolchencev-poyavilis-zenitno
                -raketnye-kompleksy-buk.html

                Quote: opus
                Could distinguish.
                believe me.
                If they did OTs, were escorted, pointed, the automation gave the green light ... then they knew why they shot.


                Ukrainians also could not distinguish Tu-154. Qualification issue.

                Quote: opus
                this is not serious.
                the calculation of the militias will not even be able to prepare the MSA for shooting, even if there is a consultant.


                Well Duc and the marginal version of a provocatively downed Boeing can not be.
                Is it a theory that on the other side are all the marginalized, fascists and Bendera, and here are the holy fighters for truth and world peace? This seems even less convincing.

                Quote: opus
                Well, if there was ONE OMS, for some reason. There sat a first-class combat crew.


                Or shitty that missed ...
                1. opus
                  opus 14 October 2015 15: 57 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Falcon
                  We took part of the air defense systems with beech complexes

                  The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine officially denied this and stands its ground.
                  Everything was exported, before

                  Quote: Falcon
                  Ukrainians also could not distinguish Tu-154. Qualification issue.

                  no, there are S-200 air defense systems.
                  Everything is different there. ROC and toggle switch, pokuizm, generals in position.
                  At 154 they were not directed.
                  Well, the years there are completely different
                  Quote: Falcon
                  Or shitty that missed ...

                  on BEECH, if "reduced", it is difficult to miss. especially if it maneuvers seamlessly at a train level of 10000m, at a speed of 800km / h.

                  No shot specifically at this Boeing (there is a very heavy traffic)

                  ================================================== ===============
                  I think the truth will come up. And I do not think that I will have to blush for my country.
            2. Scraptor
              Scraptor 14 October 2015 14: 37 New
              0
              “Presumably Su-25” was on the radars - watch and listen to the MO briefing.
              The Boeing has holes from its 30mm gun. The shelling was carried out mainly from "17 hours" at the same height at which the Boeing was walking. Climbing such a Su-25 can, moreover, has a maximum speed there. See German Wikipedia on the Su-25TK (12000) for the APU and the UkrOboronService website on the Su-25 just (7000-10000) intended for sale in Papuan.

              Before the Boeing was shot down, another 40 aircraft passed this square within 3 minutes. Why was only this one painted in such strange colors that are visible only nearby?
              “They took for a transportnik” - it’s not good, there is a device on Buki which shows whether there is a civil transponder on the plane or not.
              Could the truth be taken with the Su-25 for something else, or build a calculation on the fact that the pilot supposedly accidentally did not tolerate, and then, if necessary, otmazyvatsya ...
        2. Scraptor
          Scraptor 14 October 2015 11: 54 New
          0
          If you were an intelligent person, then you would understand that according to reports a large plane similar to the An-26 crashed from the ground, that's why they reported ... The militias do not have air defense control centers of the country.
          Small usually fell Su-25. Both that and another were decentrally knocked down by militias and did not fall by itself. So, if it fell, the militias shot down ... If the two-sided and large, then - An-26. No one could have imagined that the APU would bring down their own or even a “neutral” twin-engine airliner (similar to the An-26).
          Then when we arrived at the place and began to sort out what had fallen - the opinion of what had happened, and therefore the blog, was changed. A loan on the site incorrect information, and even such?

          The version of the General Staff (more precisely questions) is correct. The Boeing has holes from a 30mm gun.
          then there was such a movie
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g
          13-15 minutes
          shrapnel from beech is less than three times less and leaves no such holes.

          Questions to Churkin if he suddenly there by reference recognized something indirectly.

          Questions to the cross-eyed Leontiev at that moment why (and under whose hypnosis) he goes on the air with similar "satellite" images, where the scale of the fields below and both planes does not coincide.
          By the way, actually, are you busy here?
      3. aiden
        aiden 12 July 2017 01: 56 New
        0
        Opus, why are you crucifying him. You just look at this https://topwar.ru/index.php?do=lastcomments&u
        serid = 144600
        Reminds resentful representative of an ancient profession. This is one of those who live by the principle of "spite frost mom ears"
    3. aiden
      aiden 12 July 2017 01: 51 New
      0
      Specially registered to make vyser? Well done. It is counted. And now, jump, jump and jump again, so that the commission from the camp w ****** throws something else. You can see the clowns right away. Always like you wanted to ask, but do you even know your native language?
  39. orskpdc
    orskpdc 13 October 2015 17: 12 New
    -5
    Tell me why the An-26 14 July military transport aircraft was shot down.
    1. opus
      opus 13 October 2015 18: 00 New
      +2
      Quote: orskpdc
      Tell me why the An-26 14 July military transport aircraft was shot down.

      Maybe you all at once? with trains?


      Your an-26

      see from 5 seconds

      Ask the pilots:
      Four were picked up by the Ukrainian Armed Forces rescue team, two (commander and right pilot) were killed, and one was taken prisoner by Lugansk militias. Another crew member was saved on 19.07/02.09. Pilot Sergey Mordvinov was handed over by the militias to the Ukrainian side during the exchange of prisoners of war on XNUMX.

      1. Do you see missiles from Buk?
      2.About 6500m -sure (Lyaps APU)?
      You met a parachute dump of cargo from a height of 6500 meters
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 13 October 2015 18: 10 New
        -3
        Quote: opus
        Maybe you all at once? with trains?

        Immediately obvious specialist, posted a video from a computer game-super goodAh young man slammed a minus, but left his video from the game laughing Pretty boy lol
        1. opus
          opus 13 October 2015 18: 28 New
          0
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Immediately obvious specialist laid out

          Yes?
          Can present the "movie" original
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          from a computer game super
          Lock On Modern Air Combat - Gameplay (PC)

          or something else that you mean by "super-computer game"
          And compare?

          ?
          One silly blurted out, many "wise men" repeat like that ... After all, a trend (there is a more capacious one, I’ll get a ban again), it’s not to turn over bags.
  40. BRDM2M
    BRDM2M 13 October 2015 17: 44 New
    +1
    I don’t know what about BEECH, I live 10 kilometers from the fall of a Boeing. So, literally 20 seconds after getting into a Boeing, a fighter passed over the village towards Debaltseve, and the village is called Red Kut
    1. VadimSt
      VadimSt 13 October 2015 18: 43 New
      0
      Yes, you, or a "golden" witness, if you observed events with such a temporary characteristic, or a provocateur, or a dude! Maybe then specify at what exact time and in what place the “hit” occurred? And then the experts, and even according to the dispatchers, everything is approximately - the connection was interrupted near 14.15, and you have data up to a dozen seconds!
  41. opus
    opus 13 October 2015 17: 46 New
    +2
    Quote: Author Volodin Alexey
    However, Dutch experts decided not to go to the logical end and announced that "they do not know where exactly the rocket was launched on the Boeing."

    Not certainly in that way.

    In general, the report is decent.
    I got pinned: a couple of times suddenly appearing subtitles in Ukrainian.
    Yes, the Dutch are trying to whitewash Ukraine.
    but the work is great.
    In general, the data agree with Almaz Antey.

    Starting area 320 sq.km.
    1. figter
      figter 13 October 2015 19: 07 New
      0
      Starting area 320 sq.km.

      It is approximately 4 thousand square km.
      1. opus
        opus 13 October 2015 19: 20 New
        0
        Quote: figter
        It is approximately 4 thousand square km.

        4000?
        a lot of something.
        the whole Dronetsk region is about 26000 sq. km., what is 1/6 of the launch zone?


        In the North Kazakhstan region there are more than 3500 lakes with a water mirror area of ​​more than 4000 kmXNUMX.
        1. figter
          figter 13 October 2015 20: 25 New
          0
          The defeat zone of the Buk air defense missile system is 35 km. The launch zone exceeds the affected zone depending on the speed of the target. The launch takes place 3 seconds before the target approaches the affected area, approximately on average 37-38 km.
          37х37х3,14 = 4298,66 sq. Km
          1. opus
            opus 13 October 2015 22: 36 New
            0
            Quote: figter
            The Buk missile defense zone is 35 km

            what are you confusing.

            from 3 to 35 km.
            What do you mean by air defense systems?
            SOU one or SPComplex?
            The composition of the SAM systems includes:
            • command post (KP);
            • radar target detection (SOC);
            • up to six self-propelled firing systems (SOU);
            • up to six starting-charging installations (ROM);
            • anti-aircraft guided missiles.

            The distance between the vehicles of the SDA complex can reach 10 km ... the main thing is that the SAM would not be placed above 3000m above sea level.

            Quote: figter
            The launch area exceeds the affected area depending on the speed of the target.

            unknown parameter.
            ZP.
            How's that?
            Start-up is generally determined by automation: target range, speed (azimuthal, radial), altitude, maneuverability

            Quote: figter
            Start up in 3 seconds before the target approaches the affected area, approximately somewhere on average 37-38 km.

            hic ... belay

            Aiming a rocket at a target begins with an azimuthal turn of the guides of the launcher in the direction of the target. Since the complex adopted the combined method of guiding the rocket — inertial guidance with radio correction at the initial guidance site and semi-active homing at the final site of the trajectory, then after launch for about 24 seconds the rocket is independently controlled. Control is provided by the introduction of the so-called "pseudo-kinematic link" into the GOS, in fact a simplified inertial control system. For effective guidance of air defense systems at maneuvering targets in this area, radio path correction is used.

            On the basis of data on the characteristics of the target and missiles issued by radar systems of air defense systems and starting automation equipment, the anticipated missile meeting point is determined for the purpose at which the launch guide with the missile is guided.

            In the "ZV" mode without the use of radar RGS capture command is issued at 2 seconds of flight in the presence of the command "NEAR ZONE" ("BLZ") or at 4 seconds in the absence of the BLZ command. This mode is the only one when shooting from ROM.

            3 seconds you took from here:
            “SELF-ELIMINATION” (issued to undermine a warhead and eliminate a missile in case of a miss or missed homing and lack of interception on the trajectory during (3 ± 1) with the presence of the team “FAR RECEPTION” (+27 V).

            Quote: figter
            4298,66 sq km

            Not so considered holandzhtsy, not so thought in the diamond-anty.
            It is necessary to "go" from Boeing, down to the ground, and this is the starting area of ​​320 sq. km.
            1. figter
              figter 14 October 2015 00: 28 New
              0
              I have these tables TTX and so on to anything. I know all this in practice. The start-up in the SOK of the “Buk” air defense missile system is determined by automatic equipment - the “Permission to Start” board is displayed. It gives permission to launch a rocket after taking a target for auto tracking three seconds before the target enters the affected area. The affected area is calculated by the centralized control system of the sow, its far and near boundary, the pre-empt point is displayed on the indicator of the sector review. And believe me, I'm not confusing anything. I see no reason to quote excerpts downloaded from the Internet to me, if all this has been passed by me in practice. What and how is controlled and where what teams are served I know well enough. I will not even bother to read it. I can write such books myself.
              Not so considered holandzhtsy, not so thought in the diamond-anty.
              It is necessary to "go" from Boeing, down to the ground, and this is the starting area of ​​320 sq. km.

              The affected area is counted from the sow to the target. And not otherwise. What strikes you is what defines the zone. In addition, as the golans believed, and even more so - Antey is absolutely not a level and not a dogma. Lyapov that some, that the other - abound.
              1. opus
                opus 14 October 2015 01: 59 New
                0
                Quote: figter
                I have these tables TTX

                You just seem to be confusing: the calculated launch zone of the missile defense system (a certain area on the surface of the earth, from where the missile system that hit the Boeing could have been launched) with the zone (the affected area: the LA interception point of this missile system) in which the missile system could intercept the Boeing.

                I don’t know what you are there in practice, but if you accept
                Quote: figter
                37х37х3,14 = 4298,66 sq. Km
                then calmly assume that they were shooting from the Rostov region (what if there is a nafig dispute between AA / AA and the Dutchmen about Zaroshchenskoye and Snezhnoye - take further)


                Quote: figter
                I see no reason to quote me excerpts downloaded from the Internet,

                This is from here:

                I’ll disappoint, I didn’t
                Quote: figter
                Antey is absolutely not a level and not a dogma

                Possible.
                But they make products, conduct launches, in tch and combat.
                Tch I will believe more to them than "practitioners"
                1. figter
                  figter 14 October 2015 09: 15 New
                  0
                  opus (6) RU Today, 01: 59
                  Quote: figter
                  I have these tables TTX
                  You just seem to be confusing: the calculated launch zone of the missile defense system (a certain area on the surface of the earth, from where the missile system that hit the Boeing could have been launched) with the zone (the affected area: the LA interception point of this missile system) in which the missile system could intercept the Boeing.

                  Do you even understand the difference between distance and area? What does the Rostov region? If the distance from the launch site to the Rostov region is less than 35 km, then the zone of destruction and launch also covers it.
                  Possible.
                  But they make products, conduct launches, in tch and combat.
                  Tch I will believe more to them than "practitioners"

                  The content of such "manuals" does not always coincide with reality. They write their "parquet" experts, far from iron. And they do nothing in this case (Buk). Everything was done before them in the USSR. They personally do not carry out combat launches, they are also not included in the calculation, they only look from the side. Many of the points that are described in practice in such “works” are completely different. The theory does not always coincide with practice.
                  1. figter
                    figter 14 October 2015 10: 47 New
                    0
                    opus
                    then calmly assume that they were shooting from the Rostov region (what if there is a nafig dispute between AA / AA and the Dutchmen about Zaroshchenskoye and Snezhnoye - take further)

                    If you are so scrupulous about the "zones and areas" and trying to understand the issue under discussion, tell me what was the launch range to the target from both positions - the Snezhnoye joint venture and the launch position of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, and what was the exchange rate parameter of the aircraft relative to each position? Maybe in your "smart" books they can explain to you what it is and what it is eating with. And then you show me some childish elements, quote what I touched with my hands. I'm not interested. Calculate and analyze, you trust the “theorists"! If you answer this question with an analysis regarding the defeat of this particular Boeing-777, we will continue the conversation. If not, then learn from your Talmuds further. Only you will first understand, for what exactly the air defense missile system it is written: "Beech", "Beech-M1" or "Beech M1-2". Remember, they are not only alphanumeric designations different. I think that the "writer" hardly knows this either.
                    1. opus
                      opus 14 October 2015 11: 21 New
                      0
                      Quote: figter
                      If you answer this question with an analysis regarding the defeat of this particular Boeing 777, we will continue

                      1. Well, I'm not on the exam, so I don't have to
                      2.Although the discussion is interesting to me, but the tone ..
                      You know, I remind me of the ever-depressed Americans, with whom I bark (at work) constantly.
                      3. About Talmuds .. I'm already late. Little remains.
                      But air defense is my VUS, even though it is already in stock.
                      and this is not a talmud, but a study guide. it is written for a specific complex and 2 types of missiles.
                      But that is not the point.
                      Quote: figter
                      Do you even understand the difference between distance and area?

                      Well, the stump is clear. What are we talking about?
                      You seem to have beguiled
                      because according to your "calculations" the launch zone in
                      Quote: figter
                      It is approximately 4 thousand square km.

                      4000 sq. Km possible launch area,location zone ONE only OMS BEECH, for this particular case .. nonsense
                      1. figter
                        figter 14 October 2015 14: 07 New
                        0
                        opus
                        1. Well, I'm not on the exam, so I don't have to
                        2.Although the discussion is interesting to me, but the tone ..
                        You know, I remind me of the ever-depressed Americans, with whom I bark (at work) constantly.
                        3. About Talmuds .. I'm already late. Little remains.
                        But air defense is my VUS, even though it is already in stock.
                        and this is not a talmud, but a study guide. it is written for a specific complex and 2 types of missiles.
                        But that is not the point.
                        4000kv.km possible start-up zone, the zone of finding ONE only SUO BEECH, for this particular case .. nonsense

                        Well, agreed, change the tone.
                        The launching zone is geometrically a circle, because the starting device rotates. The area of ​​the circle is the radius (in km.) In the frame for the number of PI. Calculations I cited above. The area is calculated on the basis of one SLA (and not an SLA, if you have an anti-aircraft defense system), since in this case it is useless and pointless to calculate the zone of damage or launch of the entire air defense system — the launch was made by one machine and one rocket (based on the available data). At least for this you need to know the exact location of each of the six SDA divisions and it certainly will not have the shape of a circle.
                        But this is all the lyrics. The report "Antey" did not convince me personally, I was expecting something completely different. In my opinion, the evidence can in no way consist essentially of data about the angles of flight of the striking parts. This is not the main thing. It is possible that not all the details have been poured into the light in order to prevent a subsequent adjustment of the foreign investigation.
                      2. opus
                        opus 14 October 2015 15: 40 New
                        0
                        Quote: figter
                        The launch zone is geometrically a circle, because the launch device rotates.

                        No.
                        In relation to this Boeing (the nature of the defeat of the BE, the calculated point of "meeting", etc.) is not a circle.
                        The circle is generally ...
                        for any purpose, if it’s not a balloon, it will not be hanging in place of a circle

                        Quote: figter
                        I cited the calculations above. The area is calculated from the calculation of one SDA (and not the LMS

                        I do not agree with them. Do I have to write a refutation?
                        СУО, СОУ- Do not pay attention - a housekeeping chip.
                        It’s easier for me to operate PU. so I won’t write
                        Quote: figter
                        because in this case, calculate the area of ​​destruction or launch of the entire SAM

                        According to Ukraine, the militias with one "imported" PU
                        According to some of our (MO), the entire complex of air defense systems (or not 1n) attached to the 1st battalion of the 95th separate airmobile brigade of the Armed forces of Ukraine worked
                        separate anti-aircraft missile battalion, military unit A0973, consisting of 95aeb.
                        And about the fact that 1 shot at PU, and not 2 or 6 ....
                        We only know that 1on the missiles hit the Boeing

                        The affected area (interception) is calculated if the coordinates of the PU are known.
                        In this case, they "dance" from the opposite.
                        from Boeing.
                        And then it’s a pitchfork on the water: the radar did not record the downing of the liner (the beginning of defragmentation), neither the flight of missiles, nor the missiles.
                        Everyone dances from the place where the debris, train, speed fell (these are already assumptions, assumptions have gone), go to the coordinates of the interception point (all presumably)
                        Everything is approximately: V of the target is not known, the weather is not exactly known (wind, humidity, temperature), the wind along the trajectory of the fall is the same and so on.
                        And from the top (supposed interception point) "go" to the location of the PU.
                        Well, 4000 sq. km will not work either.
                        Quote: figter
                        The Antei report did not convince me personally; I was expecting something completely different.

                        he is not bad.
                        One experiment is worth it.
                        But.
                        Undermining occurred at the target, which is worth, SAM, that is the same.
                        Yes, I understand they went from PE inlet-outlet holes, but again there are a lot of assumptions. Next is the mathematical model and simulation.
                        I think that is not unfounded.
                        AA, when he designs a missile system, it uses all this.
                        But still, the evidence is more serious than that of the Dutch on a single layout.
                        The experiment is seriously prepared
                        Quote: figter
                        preventing further adjustments to foreign investigations.

                        This is politics.
                        I don’t really believe the Dutch.
                        They have corpses for a long time, there is PE, the type of ammunition is easy to calculate (no need to demonstrate "holes")
                      3. figter
                        figter 14 October 2015 17: 11 New
                        +1
                        I will not give your quotes. I do not like to do it.
                        Omit the whole dispute. I agree with you that all calculations need to be conducted only from the place of the intended launch, but not from the reverse side. This is utopia. Who, for example, will give a guarantee that the course parameter of the aircraft relative to the SDA in general allowed it to start and the machine’s CWC gave permission for this. The target could be located in the calculated zone of damage according to the performance characteristics, but not in the parameters for launch. I had a moment on the SOW when I was on combat duty among the mounds. The beam captured the top of the hill to accompany it and began to walk, pulling PU in different directions. And at some point went vertically down. CWS recognized this as BR - a ballistic target. The distant border of the affected area began to move aside towards the proximal one, and the imaginary mark from the target quickly approached and reached the distance of 10 km. But the system did not give permission to start. This is so, as an example. I am confused by the phrase about the 40 second flight, sounded in the report "Antey". In fact - this is from the rocket. Given that the Boeing movement is straightforward and uniform, the rocket did not make a maneuver and moved almost straight to the pre-empted meeting point with the target. Calculate the speed of the rocket in different parts of the flight is not so difficult. From here, the distance to the target with some error. But in fact, there is no diagram showing the route of the flight of the aircraft (in other words, the wiring of the target) indicating the position of the aircraft at the time of launch, direction of movement, speed. And this is the main thing. There are some sketches with the moment of defeat, but this is absolutely not what is needed. I agree that it will be difficult to calculate it. And rather, the complexity will be not even in technical terms, but the reluctance of someone to take on such responsibility. I agree with you that there is a pure policy. Namely, with such a scheme and you need to start your evidence. Everything else is tied and linked to it. Then everything will be iron.
                      4. opus
                        opus 14 October 2015 18: 07 New
                        0
                        Quote: figter
                        I had a moment at the JMA,

                        cool and the underlying and immobility of the goal did not give the idea of ​​the digital computer that the KP is "dumping", because the situation is clearly not that?
                        Or only one self-propelled gun worked, out of the lineup?
                        By the way, the question is: does the SOU have the same launch angle?
                        or trying beyond the line of sight of the target, with restrictions on the descent of course.
                        In general, radar sow, because of their performance characteristics and concurrence with Pu is such a mysterious thing.
                        Beam too narrow
                        Quote: figter
                        second flight, sounded in the report "Antey"

                        and the Dutch liked it, how they calculated the speeds of the striking elements and the entry angles from the records (squeaks) of 3 (or more) microphones in the cockpit.
                      5. figter
                        figter 14 October 2015 19: 07 New
                        0
                        opus
                        cool and the underlying and immobility of the goal did not give the idea of ​​the digital computer that the KP is "dumping", because the situation is clearly not that?

                        Ha! I took the mop to escort myself, without a team. But we worked with the CP 9C470М1 in a pair, worked out the interaction. So often did, at the same time trained. He, too, was shown on the scoreboard by the BR, since the SPD gave all my information to him. It was ridiculous to hear his reaction on the radio station, he was in shock until I did a reset. His situation is reflected with analysis, something terrible he saw there. Honestly, I also felt uneasy, feeling my helplessness in ballistics.
                        Does the sow start angle the same?

                        Accompany the target by the corner of the place.
                        In general, radar sow, because of their performance characteristics and concurrence with Pu is such a mysterious thing.

                        Very normal thing. In manual steering, the PU can be rotated in any direction, in parallel, producing an overview. This is if one is left. And so, in general, the work is done everywhere in the sector, regardless of the method of review of the machine. For sow 120 degrees is enough. There are two of them in the battery. One is supposed to work in the “Bottom” zone, the other “Top”. But in practice, each machine operates in its sector with overlap with the other. In this case, the detection is sufficient at all heights. The most gusto in it is the mode of operation of the SOI. Few people worked in it, but in vain. The most noise-proof mode. I don’t think that even modern jammers will silence him. Therefore, the SOU 9А310М1 is relevant today. The main tactical move correctly, and not to stand to catch birds.
                  2. Scraptor
                    Scraptor 14 October 2015 21: 49 New
                    0
                    Yes, that's just for some reason they took the weekend 30mm cannon holes for the input from 8,4mm shrapnel warhead missiles and "repelled" from
                    of this. I-beams in general, as befits a razor, make more cuts in airplane aluminum.
  • kostavit
    kostavit 13 October 2015 17: 48 New
    0
    Quote: reservist
    and personally saw the trace of the rocket?

    it would be more correct to write
    Quote: kostavit
    Мы everything, daughters of officersliving near Snow know ...

    I was an officer as an Afghan, and now I’m standing here so that the Nazis don’t go to Russia. You should drink beer near the computer, read at least how we stood under Kandahar.
    1. reservist
      reservist 13 October 2015 18: 22 New
      0
      I don’t drink beer at the computer for a very long time (well, in this century for sure ...)
      the question of whether they personally saw the launch of a beech rocket did not answer ...
    2. Cat man null
      Cat man null 14 October 2015 02: 07 New
      0
      Quote: kostavit
      and now I'm standing here

      Where?

      Plus you, so as not to fall at all.

      Where are we standing, warrior?
  • Swed
    Swed 13 October 2015 18: 31 New
    0
    First of all, these results need to be provided to the Malaysian people. In order to show the results and conclusions on local channels in detail with the video, as it seems that they don’t care what happened to the plane.
  • kugelblitz
    kugelblitz 13 October 2015 18: 36 New
    +2
    Ukrainians as always overpowered ...
  • wadim13
    wadim13 13 October 2015 19: 29 New
    0
    As a person far from military affairs, I’ll nevertheless ask: why not just collect all the striking elements found in the remains of the liner structures and the bodies of the victims (and there should be a lot of them), pour them on the table in front of journalists and experts from different countries and warring parties , and on these elements to establish the type of missile and its warheads. After all, this could be done the day after the crash, since everyone was so hungry for the truth.
  • james
    james 13 October 2015 19: 44 New
    0
    All this is certainly good, but the trouble is that in the same Republic of Belarus, look at what kind of bacchanalia Russophobian is on the forums.
    http://talks.by/showthread.php?t=14254522&page=2
    http://talks.by/showthread.php?t=14254492&p=29427427&posted=1#post29427427
    They really don't need it.
  • Michael - 235
    Michael - 235 13 October 2015 20: 25 New
    +1
    "Chairman of the Security Council of the Netherlands):
    An additional forensic investigation will be required to determine the launch site. Such an investigation is outside the purview of the Netherlands Security Council "
    Did the Netherlands really not understand the essence of the matter from the very beginning of the investigation? Did it really take a year to fool the whole world in order to officially make such a statement?
    Explicit hypocrisy in officialdom!
  • Retvizan 8
    Retvizan 8 13 October 2015 20: 27 New
    0
    This is a monstrous provocation! Emphasis of the Americans, they always make some sort of mess under their dirty tricks!
    I don’t know what they specifically wanted to stir up, but the persecution of Russia after this incident began hellishly! Well, and if I'm not mistaken, sanctions were imposed soon.
  • Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 13 October 2015 20: 32 New
    0
    In ovs, as in the eastern market, the one who screams louder is right.
    It doesn't matter what kind of experiments there are. And it doesn’t matter how it really was.
    It is important that they write newspapers and show on TV.
    1. win
      win 16 October 2015 10: 28 New
      +2
      As in the eastern market - the one who is right screams louder.

      If it were possible to build houses with a cry, then the donkey would be a great builder.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • kostavit
    kostavit 13 October 2015 20: 39 New
    0
    Quote: reservist
    I don’t drink beer at the computer for a very long time (well, in this century for sure ...)
    the question of whether they personally saw the launch of a beech rocket did not answer ...

    And where are the "stale corpses"? Where are the "eyewitnesses of the attack aircraft"? "Captain Voloshin" where?
    Who will be responsible for all this lie?
    1. win
      win 15 October 2015 16: 28 New
      +2
      And where are the "stale corpses"? Where are the "eyewitnesses of the attack aircraft"? "Captain Voloshin" where?

      the Federal Air Transport Agency does not even claim that the flight MH-17 was shot down precisely by the Buk air defense system. And then it would be nice to look again at the version that the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation was actively developing. Indeed, the SC has at its disposal indications that on the day of the disaster, the Su-25 of the Ukrainian Air Force returned with its spent ammunition to the airfield. This plane was piloted by a certain captain Voloshin, who after landing stated that the Malaysian Boeing-777 was at the wrong time and in the wrong place.