Military Review

“The Legend of Mamayev's Battle” - literature, monument or source?

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“The beginning of the story about how God granted the sovereign victory to Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich over Don over the foul Mamai and how the Orthodox Christianity — God elevated the Russian land — shamed the prayers of the Most Pure Mother of God and Russian wonderworkers ...


“The Legend of Mamayev's Battle” - literature, monument or source?


“The Tale of the Mamai Massacre” is a famous monument of ancient Russian literature, telling about the courage, suffering and military valor of the Russian people and its commander Dmitry Donskoy. It rightfully bears the name of one of the unique works of ancient Russian literature. He tells about the event of that time - the Kulikov battle. But is this a reliable source? The “Legend” opens with a story about celestial signs that predicted the victory of the Russian people. There are many of them ... and not too much? Further, the author cites many interesting facts and gradually describes events related to this battle: the campaign of the Russian troops from Moscow to Kulikovo Field, the visit of Dmitry Donskoy to the Trinity Monastery, a meeting with Sergius of Radonezh and receiving a blessing for the protection of the Russian land, sending "watchmen", the appointment of governor , the beginning of the battle - the fight of the hero Peresvet with the "pagan" warrior, the actions of the Ambush regiment.

The time of writing the stories of the Kulikovo cycle has not been determined to date, and there is no consensus about the time of writing the cycle of stories. It was established only that the closest in creation date to the memorable 1380 year was “3adonschina” - a work that sang the insight and courage of Dmitry Donskoy and the princes betrayed to him, the courage of the Russian army. Researchers of the literary monument mark the copying of the “Tale” to the “Word about Igor's Regiment”, composed 200 years earlier, from which whole phrases were taken, as well as passages and some expressions “Words ...”, and all this attracted the story of the victory of the prince's squad over the Tatars for Don. Later, in the XIV century, the Chronicle Tale of the Battle on the Don was written, which got its name from the fact that it consisted of several chronicles. This "Story" can be attributed to the genre of military narratives. Researchers divide the lists of the "Tale ..." into two editions: "Extensive", written in 1390-ies, containing a more detailed description of the battle on the Kulikovo Field, and "Short", relating to the first half of the fifteenth century.

The most detailed literary document, reflecting the events that took place in the fall of 1380, is considered to be the “Tale of the Mamai Massacre”. Dmitry Ivanovich, prince of the land of Moscow and his brother, prince Vladimir Serpukhovskoy are depicted here as smart and fearless commanders. Glorified by their courage and military prowess. The main idea of ​​"Tales ..." - in the union of Russian princes against the enemy. Only in unity is their strength, only then can they give a fitting rebuff to the enemy. Severely condemned in the "Tale ..." the betrayal of the Ryazan Prince Oleg and the cunning of the Lithuanian Prince Olgert, who wished to be allies of Mamai. Like most works of that period, "The Legend ..." has a cult coloring. For example, monologues, prayers, emphasizing the piety of Dmitry. Of course, the impact of the “3 fad” on “The Legend ...”: it was noticeable in some phrases, additions, colorful images of the regiments and nature.

So, on the eve of the battle, on the night before the feast of the Nativity of the Virgin, Prince Dmitry Donskoy and the voivode Volynets go to the place of the future battle, in the field between the Russian and Tatar parties. And they hear from the side of the enemy a loud knock and screams, and a scream, and the mountains seem to stagger - a terrible thunder, as if "the trees and grass are nickel down." Such a phenomenon of nature explicitly foreshadowed the death of "rotten." And where there are Russian squads - "great quietness" and flashes of light. And Volynets saw a "good omen" in how "from a multitude of fire, shoot the dawn."

About one hundred lists of this work are known to date. Literary scholars divide them into four versions (although there are differences in them): Basic, Common, Annals and Cyprian. All of them belong to the old, not surviving to our time text, which arose immediately after the Kulikov battle. The earliest, emerged in the second half of the XV century, is considered the main edition, which formed the basis of the other three. As mentioned above, the main characters of the events of 1380 were Prince Dmitry Ivanovich, as well as his brother, Vladimir Andreevich, who reigned in Serpukhov. Of the clergy, Metropolitan Cyprian stands apart, who after the Battle of Kulikovo moved from Kiev to Moscow, received a high rank, and in addition, took an active part in the affairs of the principality of Moscow. Cyprian especially became close with the son of Dmitry Donskoy, Vasily Dmitrievich, who after the death of his father took the reins of government + in the principality into his own hands. In addition, the main edition of "Tales ..." represents the ally of Mamai of the Lithuanian prince Olgerd, although it is known that in the 1377 year, three years before the events on the Kulikovo field, the prince had already died and Lithuania was ruled by Yagailo, his son.

Mamai, taking advantage of the fact that Russia and Lithuania had very difficult relations at that time, concluded an agreement with Yagailo and Prince of Ryazan Oleg, who feared strengthening the principality of Moscow. Mamai hoped to crush the Moscow principality with their help.

A lot of mystical and mysterious things happen on the night before the battle. In “The Tale” a certain husband, Thomas Katsibey, a robber, was put by Dmitry Donskoy on the Churov River on patrol from the Mamay troops. And Thomas had a wonderful vision. Standing on a hillock, he saw a cloud marching from the east, of enormous size, as if it were not a cloud, but an enemy army moving to the west. And from the direction of the south two young men are supposedly walking, bright faces, in bright crimsons, in each hand with a sharp sword, and asking enemy warlords: “Who told you to destroy our fatherland, which the Lord has given us?” And they began to beat them and everyone exterminated, and no one was saved. And Thomas has since become a deeply religious, rare spiritual purity, man. About the mysterious vision he told in the morning, alone, to Prince Dmitry Ivanovich. And the prince answered him: “Do not say that, friend, to anyone”, - and, holding up his hands to the sky, sobbed, saying: “Lord, Lord God of mankind! Prayers for the sake of the holy martyrs Boris and Gleb help me, like Moses on Amalekites, and how old Yaroslav on Svyatopolk, and great-grandfather my grand duke Alexander on the boastful Roman king, who wished to ruin his fatherland. Give me not your sins, not by my sins, but pour your mercy on us, spread your mercy on us, do not let us ridicule our enemies so that our enemies do not mock us, do not tell the country of the infidels: "Where is the god for whom so hoped. ” But God help the Christians, because your holy name is famous for them! ”

Such texts are very characteristic of the Russian literature of those years, which was largely based on the Bible and it was from it that she took her plots. Comparisons and frank borrowing from it, the robbers who believed and became "clean" - all this is not историяand edification, and it must be well understood.

And then came the “seventh hour” of the day when the “southern spirit” pulled (meaning not the south wind direction, but God's help to the Russian army). This is a happy hour. Volynets cried, raising his hands to the sky: "Prince Vladimir, our time has come, and the hour has come conveniently!" - and added: "My brothers, friends, braver: the power of the holy spirit helps us!"

“Osma” this hour is a funny thing. Famous Soviet and modern historian A.N. Kirpichnikov, for example, believed that Bobrok was waiting for the sun to stop shining in the eyes of Russian soldiers. Others asserted that he was waiting for the wind to carry the dust in the eyes of the "Tatar to the cursed." In fact, the “southern spirit” referred to in the “Tale ...” could in no way be in passing for our warriors, since it carried dust in their faces! After all, the Russian regiments were in the north, and the regiments of Mamaia - in the south! But maybe the creator of "Tales ..." messed up? No, he knew everything for sure and wrote that Mamai was moving to Russia from the east, the Danube River was in the west, etc. And the same robber, Foma Katsibeev, what does he say? "God revealed ... from the east ... go to the west." “From the midday country” (ie, from the south), “two young men came” - they mean saints Boris and Gleb, who helped the Russian regiments to win. Of course, now it seems that we all believed in God, but is it worth it to rely in the historical science on the help of canonized two young men, even innocent victims? Moreover, the “southern spirit” is a direct borrowing from the Bible, indicating the charity of the Russian cause and nothing more. Therefore, it is also possible not to refer to the "southern spirit" as a trustworthy fact: the Bible has also written something wrong.

But the battle ended in victory for the Russian troops. And Prince Dmitry said: “Glory to you, the supreme Creator, king of heaven, the merciful Savior, that he pardoned us, sinners, did not give into the hands of our enemies, the filthy syroyades. And you, brothers, princes, and boyars, and voivods, and the youngest team, Russian sons, are destined to place between Don and Nepryadva, on the Kulikovo field, on the Nepryadva river. You have laid your heads for the Russian land, for the Christian faith. Forgive me, brothers, and bless in this life and in the future! ”Prince Dmitry Ivanovich and the commanders bitterly mourned the slain dead, circling the field after the bloody battle. At the behest of Dmitry Donskoy, the dead were buried with honors on the bank of Nepryadva. And the winners were honored by the whole of Moscow, meeting them with a bell ringing. Olgerd, however, Lithuanian, having learned that Dmitry Donskoy defeated Mamai, went to Lithuania "with great shame." Prince Oleg of Ryazan, having learned that Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy had decided to go to war against him, was frightened and fled from his principality together with his wife and the boyars close to him; Ryazan then beat the Grand Duke with his brow, asking Dmitry Ivanovich to plant his governors in Ryazan.

But Mamai, hiding his real name, was forced to shamefully flee to Cafu (now Theodosius), there he was identified by a local merchant, captured and killed by fryagami. So ingloriously ended the life of Mamai.

The fame of the Russian warriors who won the great battle with the army of Mamai quickly spread throughout the world. And foreign merchants helped the guests, the guests - Surozh, who were on a glorious march along with Dmitry Donskoy. “Shibla glory to the Iron Gate, to Rome and to Kafa by sea, and to Tornava, and then to Tsarugrad, to the praise: Great victory over Mamaia on the Kulikovo field” ...

That is, we can definitely say approximately the same thing: as with the Battle of the Ice, there was a battle, the Russians won, some accompanying political events took place, and the main culprit - Mamai fled to Cafu (Feodosia) and was killed there! And ... everything! Value? Yes, it was, and very significant! And all the other “details” from “The Tale ...” are… church literature and a retelling of biblical texts, demonstrating the “bookishness” of its author. And this will have to be satisfied for a long time, if not forever!
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  1. parusnik
    parusnik 3 November 2015 07: 51
    +1
    That is, we can definitely say roughly the same thing: as for the Battle of the Ice - there was a battle, the Russians won, there were some accompanying political events, and her main culprit - Mamai fled to Kafa (Theodosius) and was killed there! And ... that's it! Value? ... Oh how! The author in a literary work, which was built on church canons, as it should be for that era .. He also had to draw conclusions ... smile Conclusions to do, he left to posterity .. In addition, the author wrote on the model .. "The Word about Igor's regiment" ... There are also many miracles and divas whistling and an eclipse .. and most importantly no conclusions .. Yes there is a question .. How long Russian princes will be dogging among themselves .. And then "The Legend of the Mamaev Massacre" was not written by a veteran of the Battle of Kulikovo ... but a monk ... He wrote that he knew .. well, he let his "religious fog" go, for the colorful description ..
    1. kalibr
      3 November 2015 07: 57
      +2
      So as a source, this work should not be considered, that's all. You're right!
      1. Vend
        Vend 3 November 2015 09: 52
        +3
        I have this work, translated by Academician Likhachev. However, how accurately he translated it, that is the question. Suffice it to recall his translation "Our land is great and abundant, but there is no order in it" He translated the word outfit as order, although this word is translated as management, ruler, etc. However, the source itself provides a lot of information to any historian.
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 3 November 2015 10: 39
        +5
        But why is it not worth considering .. We consider literary works such as Iliad and Odyssey .. as sources .. Information about the Battle of Kulikovo is contained in four main ancient Russian written sources. These are "The Brief Chronicle Tale of the Battle of Kulikovo", "The Extensive Chronicle Tale of the Battle of Kulikovo", "Zadonshchina" and "The Legend of the Mamaev Battle". The last two contain a significant number of literary details of dubious reliability. Information about the Battle of Kulikovo is also contained in other chronicles covering this period, as well as in Western European chronicles, adding additional interesting information about the course of the battle, not known from Russian sources. The most complete chronicle document describing the events of September 1380 is "The Legend about the Mamaev massacre ”, known from more than a hundred surviving lists. This is the only document that speaks about the size of Mamai's troops, although it is incredibly large. But nevertheless ... for this information we can use it as a source. In the "Lay of Igor's Regiment" ... there is no data on the number of Polovtsians .. the number of the Russian squad ... In the PVL, there are only a few lines about the campaign of Prince Igor ... only the date of the campaign, but without the details that are described in the Word ..
        A short story about the Battle of Kulikovo of secondary origin contains “The Word about the Life and Repose of the Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich,” and the “Life of Sergius of Radonezh” contains a story about the meeting before the battle of Dmitry Donskoy with Sergius of Radonezh and about sending Peresvet and Oslyaby to them for battle.
  2. ver_
    ver_ 3 November 2015 08: 38
    12 th
    ... This massacre is a showdown between relatives in the fight for the crown .. Khan Mamai is the uncle of Dmitry Donskoy Velyaminov, according to the law, power was transferred from brother to brother ... Donskoy by his actions violated the law of succession ... Khan Mamay-Veliaminov and Dmitry Don - Khan Tokhtamysh - descendants of Rurik - Vsevolod - Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - the sons of Yaroslav. Alexander Nevsky overtook and executed Brother Andrei on the orders of his father for apostasy .. Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - Khan Batu founded the Vatican and summoned Alexander Nevsky to him and became Alexander Nevsky -Khan Berke = Alexander the Great ...
    1. Glot
      Glot 3 November 2015 08: 50
      13
      Khan Mamai - Veliaminov and Dmitry Donskoy- Khan Tokhtamysh- the descendants of Rurik - Vsevolod - Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - the sons of Yaroslav. Alexander Nevsky overtook and executed Brother Andrei on the orders of his father for apostasy .. Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - Khan Batu founded the Vatican and summoned Alexander Nevsky to him and became Alexander Nevsky -Khan Berke = Alexander the Great ...


      Oh how ... smile Have you re-read the Fomenkovshchina?
      Without touching all of the above, once you have identified one, the other and the third, I will ask for the two given. In your opinion, does Dmitry Donskoy and Khan Toshtamysh have the same face? If I understand you correctly ...
      Then, take the trouble to explain how it can be that Dmitry Donskoy died in 1389 and was buried in the Archangel Cathedral. Khan Tokhtamysh was killed only in 1399? Or were there two Tokhtamyshs too? Or two Don? Or ... smile Or maybe it’s worth learning history by right books ? smile
      Yes, about the fact that Batu founded the Vatican, it’s strong, strong ... smile
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 3 November 2015 08: 56
        +9
        Quote: Glot
        Then, take the trouble to explain how it can be that Dmitry Donskoy died in 1389 and was buried in the Archangel Cathedral. Khan Tokhtamysh was killed only in 1399? Or were there two Tokhtamyshs too? Or two Don? Or ... Or maybe it’s worth teaching History from the right books?
        Yes, about the fact that Batu founded the Vatican, it’s strong, strong ..

        "... How many of them
        fell into this abyss
        open in the distance .... " wassat
        Read people primary sources laziness ...
        It’s easier to run through the pomp of dubious ones.
        Mrykansky way of learning ... laughing
      2. Turkir
        Turkir 3 November 2015 10: 02
        +9
        Fomenko is not a mathematician, but a statistician. You ate four cutlets, I haven’t. According to statistics, we ate two cutlets each.
        His statistical methods applied to history are false.
        And his followers, from the team: "And we like it so much." They are not interested in the truth.
        ---
        Mamai fled to Kafu, but he was not allowed to go there. Killed by Tokhtamysh riders.
        Fryagi are Italian merchants from Genoa. Traded slaves-Slavs.
        1. andj61
          andj61 3 November 2015 21: 34
          +4
          Quote: Turkir
          Fomenko is not a mathematician, but a statistician. You ate four cutlets, I haven’t. According to statistics, we ate two cutlets each.
          His statistical methods applied to history are false.
          And his followers, from the team: "And we like it so much." They are not interested in the truth.
          ---
          Mamai fled to Kafu, but he was not allowed to go there. Killed by Tokhtamysh riders.
          Fryagi are Italian merchants from Genoa. Traded slaves-Slavs.


          Fomenko is engaged in applied mathematics, not statistics. True, he is never a historian. He poses questions perfectly - and the modern version of the history of answers does not give them. Examples: on the tombs of the pharaohs in Egypt there are images of planets, luminaries, etc. Based on these images, using purely mathematical methods, Fomenko and his group established that the history of Egypt is not at all millennia BC, all events in the history of Egypt took place no later than 2000 years ago. This is consistent with other evidence, only the stories in the modern interpretation do not correspond.
          Further - the fall of Troy -13-12 centuries BC. The only evidence of the event is Homer's Iliad, but he composed it half a millennium after the event, and it was written down another 200 years later. Schliemann's archaeological finds generally do not stand up to scrutiny for their reliability, according to modern criteria, and whether the ruins to Troy are generally out of speculation. But the poem contains a description of astronomical phenomena. According to Fomenko's calculations, these phenomena indicate the 13th century - the capture of Constantinople by the crusaders (1204). The identity of the Troy-Constantinople pair provides substantiation for the vast literature of the Middle Ages, written "supposedly" on behalf of the participants in the Trojan campaign, including those mentioned in the Iliad. Moreover, these participants declared themselves as contemporaries in the 13th century!
          And there are a lot of such moments. Take, for example, an accurate description of the birth of Christ - directly according to the canons. So it could not have been on the date that Scaliger had indicated - precisely because of astronomical descriptions. But after a millennium - it could very well - unless, of course, the holy books do not lie.
          And how Scaliger established this reference point is generally hushed up - he was a mystic and numerologist and proceeded from his own, completely scientific, in his opinion, views. But the powers that be, first of all, the Catholic Church, received this favorably, and some sharply criticized Scaliger - Newton, for example, simply remained silent. And then everyone got used to it.
          So the questions of Fomenko and his co-author - Nosovsky, pose the right ones. But further
          Fomenko gives his interpretations of history - and here begins a fairy tale!
          One book - when the intersection of events contradicts another, versions are wound one on top of the other - and there is NO complete and clear picture of historical events. And from these books it is impossible to compile them. Therefore, variants of the history of Fomenko-Nosovsky can only be read, it is almost impossible to accept them.
          Although the whole history is somewhere up to the 15-16th century - the time when Scaliger "created" it is also decent crap. But there is at least an authoritative and generally ACCEPTED justification.
          1. marline
            marline 4 November 2015 00: 45
            0
            Please provide links to these "mathematical" studies.
            A simple starry sky program on my computer, transparently hints that the research data is false, but the "traditional" dating is true.
            1. andj61
              andj61 4 November 2015 20: 59
              0
              Quote: merlin
              Please provide links to these "mathematical" studies.
              A simple starry sky program on my computer, transparently hints that the research data is false, but the "traditional" dating is true.

              Read the same Fomenko: At the beginning of the books there is given a mathematical justification with the results, and the results, as expected, are probabilistic in nature. This, incidentally, is in all the books of Fomenko. ITS options for the story can not be read - first read its rationale. You can take it at http://www.litmir.co/bs/?g=sg130, in the authors you will type Anatoly Fomenko, downloaded in fb 2, AlReader or Coolreader reader.
              In principle, you can take any book, but it is better to start from the first - there are more justifications there, and there are no references to the previous ones.
              1. marline
                marline 5 November 2015 15: 30
                0
                Quote: andj61
                Read the same Fomenko: At the beginning of the books there is given a mathematical justification with the results, and the results, as expected, are probabilistic in nature.

                Downloaded, looked, did not find ... This is short ... (downloaded: "Introduction to a new chronology. What century is it now?")
                There is a graph of R. Newton and a hand-drawn graph of A. Fomenko. Where are the calculations? Netuti ... By the way, R. Newton later admitted that he screwed up and refused this work, but Fomenko ....
                And there is a program for the "traditional" model in a computer, for the same, for example, voyagers fly, ships use ships in navigation, it is written with calculations that can be found in any textbook of astronomy, and, perhaps, it is much more accurate than Fomenkov's graph by hand. .. (although, why "much more accurate"? absolutely more accurate).
                So you have no "mathematical" justification !!!
          2. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. ver_
        ver_ 3 November 2015 14: 47
        -4
        ... Nevsky "died" for Russia because he did not return - he remained with his father and was the ruler of Crete - there is his grave ..
        1. marline
          marline 3 November 2015 17: 09
          +3
          Come on? belay
          And who is in the Alexander Nevsky Monastery? Is Batu really ???? belay
    2. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 3 November 2015 15: 06
      +2
      Well bent ...... wassat
    3. marinier
      marinier 3 November 2015 16: 57
      +5
      Dobroi vremia sutok gaspodin. Ja s4itati Vi zabluzdat na s4et rodnia mamj en Dmitrij Donckoj. Vam bi ne pomeshal urok patriotizma. U RUSSLAND est hee veel primer gorditsia Russishe vitjaz-Alex Nevskij.
      Pss uvazeniem hi
    4. Serafim-k
      Serafim-k 3 November 2015 20: 51
      +3
      Quote: ver_
      ... This is a battle - a showdown between relatives in the fight for the crown .. Khan Mamai - uncle Dmitry Donskoy .... Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - Khan Batu founded the Vatican and called Alexander Nevsky to himself and became Alexander Nevsky -Khan Berke = Alexander the Great. ..

      It’s very interesting that the author of this opus smoked before ... writing this ... belay
  3. Yun Klob
    Yun Klob 3 November 2015 09: 06
    +3
    Nosovsky with Fomenko proved that the Battle of Kulikovo is the Battle of Kursk 1943 of the year. what
    1. andj61
      andj61 3 November 2015 22: 39
      +2
      Quote: Yoon Clob
      Nosovsky with Fomenko proved that the Battle of Kulikovo is the Battle of Kursk 1943 of the year. what

      Sarcasm is welcome hi. Only Fomenko and Nosovsky claim a global distortion in the dating of historical events before Scaliger - and this is the end of the 15th-beginning of the 16th century. So later events will not roll. With them they say - they were silent here, about this - they did not mention, etc. But no more than that.
      1. kalibr
        4 November 2015 06: 49
        +2
        There is an exact link: 1066. Battle of Hastings and the passage of Halley's comet. It is depicted in Bayesque Embroidery.
  4. Glot
    Glot 3 November 2015 09: 10
    +6
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    Quote: Glot
    Then, take the trouble to explain how it can be that Dmitry Donskoy died in 1389 and was buried in the Archangel Cathedral. Khan Tokhtamysh was killed only in 1399? Or were there two Tokhtamyshs too? Or two Don? Or ... Or maybe it’s worth teaching History from the right books?
    Yes, about the fact that Batu founded the Vatican, it’s strong, strong ..

    "... How many of them
    fell into this abyss
    open in the distance .... " wassat
    Read people primary sources laziness ...
    It’s easier to run through the pomp of dubious ones.
    Mrykansky way of learning ... laughing


    It's right. Everything falls and falls into the abyss of ignorance and illiteracy ... smile
    I already said in the next topic, about the need for severe censorship, otherwise we are losing people ...
    Learning that story is of course difficult, reading academic works is dreary, dreary and even completely unreadable. Toli is a semi-scientific matter, written in a simple, intelligible language, nonsense. It's simple: Batu founded the Vatican, Mamai, he simply wanted to teach Dmitry the Velyaminov’s tribe, but Alexander Nevsky didn’t use Nevsky but Macedonian, and he didn’t beat the Teutons and Lake Chudsky, but the Persians under the Hawgamels and Time in India. laughing What about the evidence? Yes nakoy, it’s easier and most importantly - more interesting. laughing laughing
    1. dmb
      dmb 3 November 2015 14: 30
      0
      Agreeing with you about falling into the abyss, I just can not agree about censorship (except for the part that concerns the advertising of human vices). Yes, this is nonsense, but it’s for that reason that the argument is given to disprove this nonsense. Otherwise, this nonsense will be distributed quietly, and its adherents will be fully confident that you have nothing to answer to their slogans.
    2. ver_
      ver_ 3 November 2015 14: 54
      -2
      ... explain to me how the scavenger faints how the Mongols attacked Russia in the 12th century, when the birth year of Mongolia was 1920 .. The time machines have not yet been invented .. and you don’t need to read the official history - it was written by the Germans by order of Tsar Peter .. .
      1. marline
        marline 3 November 2015 17: 11
        +3
        What did Peter I, both in England and France, and, even, my God, in China ordered the history to be rewritten ???
        Urgently refer to the scan order in the studio !!!! Do you have such a conscience from the public ???
        laughing
      2. kalibr
        3 November 2015 18: 03
        +2
        And Rubruk and Plano Karpini where did you go? To whom and about what they wrote?
    3. ty60
      ty60 5 November 2015 20: 13
      0
      The author of the quote you quoted did not quote the source, but merely stated YOUR opinion. It is very different. And to argue on the topic, one woman said ..
  5. Basil50
    Basil50 3 November 2015 09: 27
    +3
    * We must pray and the truth will open * and it will be revealed by Gundyaev, a great expert on * everything hidden *. While church writings and sources are perceived as truth, no one can affirm or deny anything. The church is lying that then now, on its own whims, not connected in any way with historical facts. Literary * delights * are always welcome, as are fairy tales. And the better they are told, the more they are loved. Especially in childhood. So the church had a whole layer of literature with good deeds, or successful battles after a big prayer. Well, nothing happens without prayer. My generation witnesses the birth of a new church * feat *, this is about how during the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, in the battle of MOSCOW, the icon on the front of the plane was dragged and the Germans * were afraid *. That there was no such fact — spit, witnesses saw flights, There is no fact, and there are witnesses with burning eyes. Another hundred years will pass and annals of * this church feat * in a specific language will appear. That's just about the gathering of churchmen organized by the Germans and the fact that they accepted at their * gathering * rarely anyone mentions.
    This is an example of * technology * creating a historical canvas * the church’s struggle with the forces of darkness * where the main feat is the posts of prayer and of course the icon. Hence doubts and new theories. Too science HISTORY and pundits intertwined in their writings. Sometimes it is impossible to distinguish historical work from church work.
    1. marline
      marline 3 November 2015 10: 12
      +5
      There is a common aphorism: "There are no unbelievers in the trenches." And why did you stick to the church ?. Well, our ancestors believed in God ... Imagine that tomorrow it will be proved that the materialistic worldview is wrong (and there are prerequisites), so the day after tomorrow our descendants will shout: You imagine our ancestors believed in terry materialism, but this is all lies of philosophers , they made money on it ... wink
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 3 November 2015 16: 52
        +2
        There is simply no church without money, otherwise where do they get so much gold from and where are the luxurious accessories from? Insolents claiming a monopoly on divine attention. The whole ideology is primitive, I’m a priest in money, but in the slaves themselves. And do not hesitate to call the faithful a herd of sheep, but yourself as shepherds. Well, of course everything is * beautiful * words specific * terms * and very verbose.
        1. marline
          marline 3 November 2015 17: 06
          +1
          You still speak as if you live in another world ... Do you know the word "politics", PR ... it's the same, the same technologies, why don't you have such hatred of the state? after all, this state, not the church, usurped and monopolized the right to use force ... it is they, politicians call you the "electorate" (guess how it sounds in the Czech folk?) and, imagine not hiding it ... You are talking about slavery ? Do you understand what you are talking about? The difference is that you can be a slave of God and bow down in church and not be a servant of god and lick the hip bone to your master ... you personally, what did you choose ???
          PS: I’ll say right away that I’m familiar with the work of the German philosopher Feuerbach, but I consider it incorrect to underestimate the role of religion and the church in history ... in the end, all the universities of old Europe were built at monasteries ... and what did the Greeks achieve with their mysticism?
          1. Basil50
            Basil50 3 November 2015 17: 25
            +1
            Well, that's what I wrote about. Serve your priests and do not think people are more stupid than yourself.
            1. marline
              marline 4 November 2015 00: 40
              0
              "Serve your priests" is all you can argue?
              You know, I am amazed at the habit of the "Russian intelligentsia" to be always against, under Soviet rule, to depict candlesticks in the church and to talk about Russian Orthodox Spirituality, now, when the president goes to church, to cite hackneyed arguments of atheists. Do you have your own opinion? Can you try to figure out at least some issue yourself? Or just the mainstream, just what I read in that book about the world conspiracy and "the whole truth about how evil Zhidomassons control us with the help of the Russian Orthodox Church" ??? Maybe it's worth starting to think critically, or at least just think ...
              PS In our country, no one has yet canceled religious freedom, and you should not insult the feelings of believers, this only demonstrates your low culture of communication.
            2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Basil50
      Basil50 7 November 2015 01: 06
      0
      The whole * dialogue * fits into a joke about a woman who comes up with everything for you and tells everyone this, but she doesn’t like the idea.
  6. Army soldier2
    Army soldier2 3 November 2015 09: 27
    +7
    An interesting conclusion is made by Svetlana Denisova.
    At the same time, between the lines, the author regrets that voice recorders, cards, books of orders have not reached us :-).
    Naturally, the chronicle was written not by eyewitnesses (they did not know how to write), but by monks who learned information from third parties. The source can be regarded as an example of Old Russian literature. and it is characterized by allegory, and grotesque, and fiction. Naturally, the chronicle was written in a specific political setting and contains elements of glorification of the current rulers (it would have been different - it would not have reached us at all). And, of course, each holding power, given the level of religiosity of the then society, sought to enlist the "support" of the higher powers (in our time - the results of public opinion polls).
    The Kulikovo battle is one of the defining events in the life of our state. We must be proud of our ancestors. And the search for the seeds of truth in the semi-literary works of antiquity is the business of the Historians (I deliberately write with a capital letter).
    1. Oprychnik
      Oprychnik 3 November 2015 19: 11
      +1
      It should be noted that at all times history was written on the instructions and instructions of the "party and government". As before, so now. In this case, the sources were written under the patronage of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Church with a corresponding ideological vector.
      There is no doubt that the described event is unrecognizable in comparison with what really happened, and then, in the process of rewriting and copying, the texts were supplemented and modified, often even deliberate fakes. As a result, we have a myth that is very far from reality. But this myth adopted as an unquestionable fact, and it is studied at school and universities.
  7. Heimdall48
    Heimdall48 3 November 2015 10: 52
    +2
    Poorly understood what the article is about. Well, the author of "The Tale" painted the documentary events with religious and artistic subjects - so what? This is a work of fiction, not a chronicle of hostilities. According to the work "War and Peace", Napoleon's actions are also problematic to study.
  8. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 3 November 2015 10: 59
    -4
    "... The obsessive desire to win in the Battle of Kulikovo becomes like paranoia. The Kulikovo field has not yet been found; in that battle, in principle, there was no victory of the Russians over the Tatars - the goal was to capture the Moscow market; The Golden Horde did not disintegrate after the Kulikovo battle, so no less the battle is listed in the register of victories of Russian weapons. Why? There is a museum in the Tula region, and it is not clear on what field and about what battle. It is difficult to think of anything more stupid in terms of consolidating Russians. Neither mind nor heart! By the way, the quite semi-official historian Vasily Klyuchevsky omitted the Battle of Kulikovo from his multivolume course of lectures for the insignificance of this event.
    Suppose there was a battle, and the Russians won. Which of these? What is the point today in this victory? Eliminate Tatarstan as the heir to the Golden Horde? By the way, Moscow itself, as Prince Nikolai Trubetskoy believed, the main heiress of the Horde. Therefore, Peter the Great transferred the capital in order to permanently erase all Tatar roots from history.
    Ideological throwings have led Russian intellectuals to a dead end. They began to look for the national idea in historical plots and images, relying on the existing very vicious methodology, which Klyuchevsky at one time formulated quite frankly: "The colonization of the country was the main fact of our history, with which all its other facts were in close or distant connection." With this approach, the main subject of history becomes the colonial policy of the Russian state and the migration of Russians throughout the territory. There is no room for other peoples, they turn out to be just an external environment along with the landscape, hurricanes, frosts, drought and other natural disasters. This view is characteristic of all semi-official Russian historiography up to the present day ... "
    Author: Vice President of the Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Tatarstan Rafael Khakimov
    Source: http: //www.business-gazeta.ru/article/104992/
    1. Heimdall48
      Heimdall48 3 November 2015 11: 21
      +8
      Author: Vice President of the Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Tatarstan Rafael Khakimov

      Suppose there was a battle, and the Russians won. Which of these? What is the point today in this victory?

      It’s clear that it’s not Ivan Petrov laughing The Russian will not have such a question.
    2. Glot
      Glot 3 November 2015 11: 44
      +5
      Quote: Mangel Alys
      "... The obsessive desire to win in the Battle of Kulikovo becomes like paranoia. The Kulikovo field has not yet been found; in that battle, in principle, there was no victory of the Russians over the Tatars - the goal was to capture the Moscow market; The Golden Horde did not disintegrate after the Kulikovo battle, so no less the battle is listed in the register of victories of Russian weapons. Why? There is a museum in the Tula region, and it is not clear on what field and about what battle. It is difficult to think of anything more stupid in terms of consolidating Russians. Neither mind nor heart! By the way, the quite semi-official historian Vasily Klyuchevsky omitted the Battle of Kulikovo from his multivolume course of lectures for the insignificance of this event.
      Suppose there was a battle, and the Russians won. Which of these? What is the point today in this victory? Eliminate Tatarstan as the heir to the Golden Horde? By the way, Moscow itself, as Prince Nikolai Trubetskoy believed, the main heiress of the Horde. Therefore, Peter the Great transferred the capital in order to permanently erase all Tatar roots from history.
      Ideological throwings have led Russian intellectuals to a dead end. They began to look for the national idea in historical plots and images, relying on the existing very vicious methodology, which Klyuchevsky at one time formulated quite frankly: "The colonization of the country was the main fact of our history, with which all its other facts were in close or distant connection." With this approach, the main subject of history becomes the colonial policy of the Russian state and the migration of Russians throughout the territory. There is no room for other peoples, they turn out to be just an external environment along with the landscape, hurricanes, frosts, drought and other natural disasters. This view is characteristic of all semi-official Russian historiography up to the present day ... "
      Author: Vice President of the Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Tatarstan Rafael Khakimov
      Source: http: //www.business-gazeta.ru/article/104992/


      Another pearl. laughing The banal Tatar exhaust with a nationalistic darling and no more. laughing
      The author’s conclusion on why Peter transferred the capital was especially amused. laughing
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Severomor
      Severomor 3 November 2015 11: 45
      +4
      Eliminate Tatarstan as the heir to the Golden Horde?

      Dear, here comrades from Kazakhstan should argue with you. They seem to be the main heirs))))
    5. Severomor
      Severomor 3 November 2015 11: 45
      +1
      Eliminate Tatarstan as the heir to the Golden Horde?

      Dear, here comrades from Kazakhstan should argue with you. They seem to be the main heirs))))
      1. AlNikolaich
        AlNikolaich 3 November 2015 19: 48
        +1
        Quote: Severomor
        Eliminate Tatarstan as the heir to the Golden Horde?

        Dear, here comrades from Kazakhstan should argue with you. They seem to be the main heirs))))

        Exactly! And the most interesting is that the Tatar Bashkir and Kazakh are practically the same language!
        And the Mongolian has nothing to do!
        As well as the Mongols do not have memories of past greatness, and of the Golden Horde!
        Tatars are descendants of the Volga Bulgars, and the Kazakhs are the heirs of the Golden Horde, especially since they
        the genealogy is elementarily tracked by zhuzes and genera, almost to Genghis Khan and the Prophet!
        1. Alibekulu
          Alibekulu 4 November 2015 00: 24
          +3
          Quote: Severomor
          Dear, here comrades from Kazakhstan should argue with you. They seem to be the main heirs)))
          .
          Quote: AlNikolaich
          and Kazakhs are the heirs of the Golden Horde, especially since their family tree is elementarily tracked by zhuzami and childbirth
          I can be mistaken, but in my opinion the Kazakhs are not direct heirs of Ulyg Ulys (Zol.Ordy). As an example, if direct descendants died, and the nephews claim inheritance ..
          It's just that when the Tatars voice their claims to the "Golden Horde", the Kazakhs have quite reasonable thoughts: "Even if the Tatars-Bulgars claim, then God himself ordered us"bully
          By the way, the time "Kazan took, Astrakhan took" is marked by relatively massive migrations of nomads deep into the Great Steppe. I mean, on the territory of modern K-on.
          Yes, and the main ideologue of the newly formed Kazakh Khanate, the legendary Asan Ғai былy came from the Volga region (modern Tatarstan).
  9. Severomor
    Severomor 3 November 2015 11: 00
    +3
    People! And no one will tell in the Tatar-Mongol army in 1370. were stone throwers and ballista?
    It’s very convenient to hit the standing troops.

    And then during the Mongol-Tatar invasion of Batu they were used. For example, in winter, in the taiga zone (Vladimir region), Evpatiy Kolovrat was thrown with stones, although he moved (horse detachment). And this is 130 years ago.
    Although mzht and technology are lost. According to the idea, such tools should only be improved. Nobody in the know?
    1. Heimdall48
      Heimdall48 3 November 2015 11: 13
      +1
      People! And no one will tell in the Tatar-Mongol army in 1370. were stone throwers and ballista?

      Probably not. The Mongolian military affairs since the time of Batu have greatly degraded. The art of taking cities has evaporated. Yes, and it was not the Mongols, but a mixture of Kipchaks and do not understand who.
    2. parusnik
      parusnik 3 November 2015 15: 59
      0
      And no one will tell in the Tatar-Mongol army in 1370. were stone throwers and ballista? ... And the point is to drag the mounted troops behind them, when the goal is the robbery of neighboring states, and not the subjugation of the country by taking cities .. The tactics have changed a little .. I robbed a neighbor, I took away cattle people .. I got tired of the neighbor, I got out, I can’t manage .. asks what you want .. Tribute pay, huh? According to the idea, such tools should only be improved... In what way? Replace wood with plastic, natural fibers (cables) with synthetic ones ... by 1370 artillery was replaced by stone throwers and ballists ..
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Severomor
        Severomor 3 November 2015 23: 08
        +1
        Quote: parusnik
        Which way? Replace wood with plastic, natural fibers (cables) with synthetic ones ... by 1370 artillery was replaced by stone throwers and ballists ..


        Nuuu, it's about guns. In addition, there is the result of a very thorough application, the elimination of the squad of E. Kolovrat. So you need to use it further.

        And why not improve the delivery of ammunition. To improve the running properties of carts. Although I do not know what the sources say, on the spot the stones were dug and crushed to the right size or a ready-made supply was brought from the quarries. The stones should be about the same. (in winter, in the taiga zone)

        The Mongolian military affairs since the time of Batu have greatly degraded. The art of taking cities has evaporated. Yes, and not the Mongols it was already

        somehow not an answer

        We learned from the Chinese to take cities, build various siege weapons, built a huge fleet to capture Japan, I’m not talking about the number of forges and weapons, everyone knows everything - a huge number .... and then it suddenly degraded
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 3 November 2015 23: 49
          0
          liquidation of the squad of E. Kolovrat.... Let's use an analogy .. Which weapons will inflict more casualties on the infantry, field or siege? In my opinion, field ones .. I don’t know how on yours .. The Tatar-Mongols had ballistae and catapults .. Reading "The Legend of the Ruin of the Ryazan Land" .. I did not understand and I don’t understand how it was possible to destroy soldiers from such machines .. .? These guns were not very mobile and took a long time to load ..And why not improve the delivery of ammunition. To improve the running properties of carts.... And who do you think should have improved? ... Batu drove along with him the Chinese mechanics who collected these ballista and catapults .. Everyone wonders where the Mongol empire went ...? I will explain ... no one knows ... the Mongols and the tribes they conquered returned to their former state ... why? Because they didn’t want to learn from the conquered peoples .. Chinese, Russians .. That small minority of the conquered, which was under the Mongol rulers could not exert cultural influence .. on the whole empire .. The Mongols conquered China, Vietnam, Burma .. In China they became founders the new Yuan Dynasty .. And they disappeared .. the culture of China devoured them .. they became Chinese .. Mongol leaders, became Chinese aristocrats ... Most had an influence on the minority ..We learned from the Chinese to take cities, build various siege weapons, built a huge fleet to capture JapanThey didn’t learn anything .. They learned to destroy it to dust .. Before the campaign, the Mongols of Central Asia were a flourishing region, the Mongols turned it into a desert that exists today .. The Chinese built the siege weapons for the Mongols and the Chinese built a fleet for the Mongols .. not the Mongols .. they didn’t study anything, but applied the knowledge of others ..
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Severomor
            Severomor 4 November 2015 00: 09
            +1
            You also do not believe in stone-throwers and ballista in the winter, in the Vladimir taiga region?
            So I do not believe .... grain sprouted.
            By the way, you got excited, Kazakh comrades, well, those who are the heirs of Genghis Khan, with the phrase
            They didn’t learn anything .. They learned to destroy to dust .. Before the campaign, the Mongol Central Asia was a flourishing land, the Mongols turned it into a desert, which exists to this day
            strongly disagree. )))
            Batu carried with him the Chinese mechanics who collected these ballista and catapults

            Yes, they are without a train and along riverbeds, in winter. Something I do not believe in it.
            By the way, why are they (Mongols) They burned Asia, and partially Russia, for example, the richest Smolensk was not even touched. Yes, and stood up to protect the priests.
            Everything is not clear somehow
            1. andj61
              andj61 4 November 2015 21: 08
              0
              Quote: Severomor
              You also do not believe in stone-throwers and ballista in the winter, in the Vladimir taiga region?
              So I do not believe .... grain sprouted.

              There are a lot of misunderstandings. For some reason, they attacked Central Asia not from the east - not from Dzungaria and present Xinjiang - that would be understandable, and not from Altai - although there is not the best way for cavalry, but from the north-west, actually from the Volga and the Urals.
              About Russia there is a wonderful book by Vladimir Chivilikhin - the novel-essay "Memory". There he pays attention to the invasion of Batu, and especially the episode with the capture of Kozelsk - it is very well written.
        2. kalibr
          4 November 2015 06: 51
          -1
          Without the Chinese, nowhere!
  10. erased
    erased 3 November 2015 11: 53
    +3
    As already written, this site is not a place for such discussions. Here you need specialists and facts! Moreover, the facts are more important. In the meantime, of all the facts, there is ... nothing.
    Both "Zadonshchina" and "The Word about the Regiment ..." were written somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. As well as the collection of data under the nickname "Nesterova Chronicle", where in general there are words that could not have been in the 10-11 centuries. What else did Tatishchev write about, who discovered more than 10 variants of this very chronicle.
    The times from the 12th to the 16th century are an era of struggle for land, for power, for the right of heritage between the descendants of noble families. Which ones? And the hell knows now! Was it a branch of "Rurik" or a clan from the "Byzantine-Roman Empire".
    Now one can guess using instead of tarot cards small real documents that have come down to our times or reliably copied, rather than invented or falsified. But here is the word for specialists.
    And this site should be left to the main topics. Otherwise, there will be a squabble under the slogan "This is our everything and everything is ours."
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 3 November 2015 12: 01
      +1
      Here you need specialists and facts!

      Zadonshchina, according to experts, was written at the end of the XIV - beginning of the XV centuries.
      It is preserved in six lists and two editions.
      PVL was written at the beginning of the 12th century - according to experts.
  11. Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 3 November 2015 12: 01
    0
    “The Legend of the Mommy Massacre” has much in common with Solzhenitsyn's “Gulag Archipelago”. There may have been a collision, but if it did, then it’s very insignificant, maybe fifty to fifty, maybe one hundred fighters to one hundred fighters, and then the writer increased the number of fighters by 500 or 1000 times and already got the HAND. Solzhenitsyn did the same. There were probably innocently convicted, he increased their number by a thousand times and received already Stalinist repressions. And everyone reads and many of the readers believe, although everyone knows that all the convicts were 20 times less than Solzhenitsyn, and innocently convicted among them another fifty to one hundred times less.
    From here, the Mamayev’s massacre has no material evidence, but according to the “Legend”, 40 thousand Russians were killed in it and they were buried for eight days. But there are no burials. The Tatars died many times more, about a hundred thousand and also there is not a single excavated skeleton of a warrior. For comparison, in the battle of Visby in 1361, according to the annals, the Danes killed about 4 thousand Swedish militias. During archaeological excavations, about 2 thousand skeletons of dead soldiers were discovered. On Kulikovo Field in 1380, ten times more than just Russians alone died, and the Tatars were countless more and there is not a single burial of dead soldiers.
    1. ver_
      ver_ 3 November 2015 15: 03
      -5
      ... there is no such nationality as Tatar, since Tatar = Cossack (later name) is an equestrian warrior, and Kazan is the Bulgar kingdom, not the Tatar one - thanks to the "great" Lenin - pasted this name in his article ..
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 3 November 2015 17: 08
        +1
        This is another story.
    2. ty60
      ty60 5 November 2015 20: 37
      0
      searched in the wrong field.
    3. ty60
      ty60 5 November 2015 20: 37
      0
      searched in the wrong field.
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 6 November 2015 18: 30
        0
        If not the field, then why was the Temple built on this field, a chapel was erected, an obelisk, a museum complex and everything in memory of the dead soldiers in the Mamaev massacre. Isn’t it better to find a real battlefield, and is molded to the first one, if only to celebrate the next anniversary. Funds from the budget have already been swollen unmeasured. These funds would be more than enough for archaeological research to find a real field. And now, many are already doubting, not only in the field, but also whether there was any massacre at all. And very reasonably doubt it. Or maybe the authorities lied so badly with Mamaev that they no longer have a move back, only "forward" to lie further to the stop. History does not need to be invented, it already exists, events have already passed and cannot be changed.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 3 November 2015 12: 35
    +3
    Oh, again about the story!
    It's great.
    Let's see, although the esteemed kalibr was already noted at the beginning with the correct point of view.
    Let's get started.
    1. "About a hundred copies of this work are known to the present. Literary scholars divide them into four versions (although there are disagreements): Basic, Distributed, Chronicle and Kiprianovsky."
    - so much for me. Even four options and then, a bit too much - crypto lists, some are obtained.
    2. "The Word about Igor's Regiment", two hundred years earlier, from which literally pieces of text were torn - ONE.
    3. Imagine if now they begin to write the chronicle of the Great Patriotic War in the language of the 18th century - as if "... if you please, the holy prince take a sword in his right hand. And put the second-major".
    We will understand that this is a fake or not?
    4. Or maybe all of this novel in four versions was written during the life of Olgerd? Those. three years before 1380? Then everything converges.
    .
    And killed on the spot - "... And Mamai, hiding his real name, was forced to flee shamefully to Kafa ... "
    Who was looking for him along the way? FMS of Moscow Russia? Or the customs of the Genoese? What color was Mamaia’s passport?
    .
    No Stories. And this is not a story. I agree with Vyacheslav.
    .
    .
    Do not rebuke the beautiful author.
    Sources are.
    Fate
  14. Gomunkul
    Gomunkul 3 November 2015 14: 25
    0
    What is history, if not a fable, in which we agreed to believe.
    Napoleon Bonaparte
    laughing
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 3 November 2015 16: 05
      +2
      What is history, if not a fable, in which we agreed to believe.
      Napoleon Bonaparte
      ... As for Bonnie, he published Bulletins in which he interpreted the events in a light favorable to him ..
  15. Glot
    Glot 3 November 2015 14: 56
    +1
    Quote: dmb
    Agreeing with you about falling into the abyss, I just can not agree about censorship (except for the part that concerns the advertising of human vices). Yes, this is nonsense, but it’s for that reason that the argument is given to disprove this nonsense. Otherwise, this nonsense will be distributed quietly, and its adherents will be fully confident that you have nothing to answer to their slogans.


    No, I do not agree about the unnecessary qualification. And that's why.
    Even after reading the topics created here and discussing them, that is, disputes with those who have read a lot of nonsense and believe in them, one conclusion can be drawn - 95 percent of these can no longer be persuaded. They do not accept arguments, they declare the evidence to be a fake, and their logic ... they have their own, but their own curve. So they are already - butor. But it is possible to prevent the emergence of new adherents, and precisely by strict censorship. Whatever is said, written, printed, passed the maximum verification, was reviewed at the academic level. They will not distribute anything in quiet, and they will not be able to, which means everything will come to naught. Since it will not give a banal income to those who speak, write and publish nonsense. Everything will subside. Well, the remaining adherents will grind between themselves for some time in the kitchens already unnecessary and not cultivated by anyone "discoveries" and "neotheories", and let it be. They will not harm anyone else except themselves.
    So, qualifications are tough and professional reviewing !!!
    1. Gomunkul
      Gomunkul 3 November 2015 15: 49
      +3
      So, qualifications are tough and professional reviewing !!!
      In 200 years, if modern textbooks are preserved (but other "creations" of modern authors) of Ukraine may be preserved and they fall into the hands of someone in the future from descendants, they will also consider them as a primary source, because other modern sources, while maintaining the current the authorities will be "cleaned up". Because
      Winners write the story, so no losers are mentioned.
      Arthur Drexler
      hi
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. dmb
      dmb 3 November 2015 15: 49
      +2
      Why are you so sure that the new adherents will be inclined towards semi-officialdom and not towards "hillocks"? Moreover, "the forbidden fruit is always sweet." The history of our own country is convincing evidence of this. Iskra was an underground newspaper, Voices were jammed, the result is known. Prohibit "Tatar emissions" and you will get more than one hundred of his supporters and not only among the Tatars. Even the most just government will never be deified by the people, and if the government only prohibits, without explaining, then only the "hillocks" you mentioned can call it fair.
      1. kalibr
        3 November 2015 18: 04
        +1
        Very well you said!
    4. Sweles
      Sweles 3 November 2015 17: 09
      +3
      Even after reading the topics created here and discussing them, that is, disputes with those who have read silly things and believe in them, one conclusion can be made - 95 percent of these can no longer be convinced


      as before, there was no alternative to history at all, but now they suddenly appeared, and so much more, how do you understand this? maybe TI explains something wrong?

      Quote: Glot
      They do not accept arguments, declare evidence fake, and logic ... they have their own, curve but their own


      This does not happen, logic for that and logic is that it is one for all, according to the laws of logic, such skillful works of the human mind, such as computer technology, were created and this technique was created not according to the laws of "curve or direct" logic, but simply logic and therefore everything working.


      Quote: Glot
      But to prevent the emergence of new adherents is possible, and it is precisely through strict censorship. That all that is said, written, printed, passed the maximum test, peer-reviewed at the academic level


      Or maybe it’s better to go straight to the fire, why take it off? And the books are there too. And the story of Giordano Bruno does not convince you that such steps are not true? After all, the church had to admit to the criminality of its actions and also that the church was a brake on the path of scientific progress.

      Quote: Glot
      They won’t spread anything into the quiet, and they won’t be able to, which means that everything will come to naught. Since it will not give a banal income to those who speak, write and publish nonsense. Everything will calm down.


      yes it was, but it won’t happen anymore, as if TIs didn’t grit their teeth with anger.

      Quote: Glot
      Well, the remaining adherents will grind between themselves for some time in the kitchens already unnecessary and not cultivated by anyone "discoveries" and "neotheories", and let it be. They will not harm anyone else except themselves.
      So, qualifications are tough and professional reviewing !!!


      You seem to be one of those who prefer to shut their mouths to their opponents so as not to hear objections, but this obscurantism and thank God not everyone thinks so.
      1. Glot
        Glot 3 November 2015 19: 17
        +3
        as before, there was no alternative to history at all, but now they suddenly appeared, and so much more, how do you understand this? maybe TI explains something wrong?


        You just don't know. Such charlatan fumes have always existed, both in the 20th, and in the 19th and 18th centuries. It's just that the circle of their influence was narrower than it is now. There were no "free" mass media resources and Internet.
        See how you are poorly informed about the history of your teaching. smile

        This does not happen, logic for that and logic is that it is one for all, according to the laws of logic, such skillful works of the human mind, such as computer technology, were created and this technique was created not according to the laws of "curve or direct" logic, but simply logic and therefore everything working.


        Alas, it is.
        If a charlatan writes that the Horde-Rus conquered the American continent and built pyramids and so on (and charlatans write like that), and adherents of the charlatan read it, they cry that yes, it was and it is logical, what is the logic of the adherents? And is she there?
        So that ... request

        Or maybe it’s better to go straight to the fire, why take it off?


        What for ?
        It's just that every "scientific" work should be reviewed by experts on this topic. And if these experts do not roll up this work with "black balls", then it will be allowed to be made public. It's much simpler. Bonfires are a thing of the past.

        yes it was, but it won’t happen anymore, as if TIs didn’t grit their teeth with anger.


        So far, only the creak of teeth is heard from the side of pseudo-scientific charlatans, as well as a splash of saliva from their stupid adepts. Since everything that they "dispute" (if you can call it that) is generally accepted and generally accepted. Alas, charlatanism does not roll around en masse.

        You seem to be one of those who prefer to shut their mouths to their opponents so as not to hear objections, but this obscurantism and thank God not everyone thinks so.


        I AM ? No, what are you. It's just that in disputes with boobies I have NEVER heard clear, clear and documented arguments for what they are trying to prove. In addition to frank stupidity, sheer ignorance of what they are trying to talk about, and at the end of attempts to oppose the snake hiss, alas, nothing happens ... Why close your mouths, which sometimes can not connect two words? This is stupid, all the same, except for a slurred moo, nothing comes from them. crying
        1. Sweles
          Sweles 3 November 2015 20: 27
          +2
          Quote: Glot
          You just don't know. Such charlatan fumes have always existed, both in the 20th, and in the 19th and 18th centuries. It's just that the circle of their influence was narrower than it is now. There were no "free" mass media resources and Internet.
          See how you are poorly informed about the history of your teaching


          And who was not in agreement with the main course, maybe Isaac Newton?

          Quote: Glot
          with what ?
          It's just that every "scientific" work should be reviewed by experts on this topic. And if these experts do not roll up this work with "black balls", then it will be allowed to be made public. It's much simpler. Bonfires are a thing of the past.


          peer review? And who decided this? the point here is that experts in traditional history are very tendentious about some facts, for example, the same Shed is the capital of the Golden Horde, because there is practically nothing there except ruins and broken bricks, and on what basis is it declared that this is the Shed? Or, for some reason, the same serrated lines are not marked at all by the attention of TI, length, amount of labor invested, inconsistencies in the form of demolished fortifications, how is this to be understood? the labor invested in thousands of miles of these lines is comparable to the Great Wall of China, but your specialists haven’t marked it at all.



          Quote: Glot
          I AM ? No, what are you. It’s just that in disputes with boobies I have NEVER heard clear, clear and documented arguments for what they are trying to prove. In addition to frank stupidity, sheer ignorance of what they are trying to talk about, and at the end of attempts to oppose the snake hiss, alas, nothing happens ... Why close your mouths, which sometimes can not connect two words? This is stupid, all the same, except for a slurred moo, nothing comes from them


          In general, I read all the topics of Shpakovsky and the disputes that arose there, and I can say that such a very serious topic was raised "On the dating of historical artifacts", and so, as arguments, articles were given about the weak study of the basic dating methods and even unfair approaches in some cases. Do not authors such as A.M. Tyurin, Candidate of Geological and Mineralogical Sciences, deserve trust and serious consideration? After all, he claims that the RU method is imprecise and references to it are impossible?
          1. Glot
            Glot 3 November 2015 21: 22
            0
            And who was not in agreement with the main course, maybe Isaac Newton?


            And what exactly did he disagree with? smile

            peer review? And who decided this?


            And in your opinion, everyone writes what you want and understand how you want? No, of course this is possible with charlatans and pseudoscientific figures, but in SCIENCE this is not. That is the difference between SCIENTIFIC papers and commercial / quack projects.

            In general, I read all the topics of Shpakovsky and the disputes that arose there, and I can say that such a very serious topic was raised "On the dating of historical artifacts", and so, as arguments, articles were given about the weak study of the basic dating methods and even unfair approaches in some cases. Do not authors such as A.M. Tyurin, Candidate of Geological and Mineralogical Sciences, deserve trust and serious consideration? After all, he claims that the RU method is imprecise and references to it are impossible?


            They read poorly.
            In addition to the RU method (as you say) there are many others.
            TWO again. lol
            1. Sweles
              Sweles 3 November 2015 21: 46
              0
              Isaac Newton disagreed with Scaliger over a long chronology.


              Quote: Glot
              In your opinion, everyone write what you want and understand how you want? No, of course this is possible with charlatans and pseudoscientific figures, but in SCIENCE this is not. That is the difference between SCIENTIFIC papers and commercial / quack projects.


              Traditional history has compromised itself, so no one else is going to give the rights of judgment over the past of humanity to these "scientists".

              Quote: Glot
              They read poorly.
              In addition to the RU method (as you say) there are many others.
              TWO again.


              I read well, the RU method is the main one, and therefore the rest are indirect and therefore not accurate, but your maxims do not speak about one thing, you are simply not a serious person.
              1. Glot
                Glot 3 November 2015 22: 09
                +3
                Isaac Newton disagreed with Scaliger over a long chronology.


                Academician Fomenko also disagrees, so what? Never mind. Absolutely nothing.
                There is a timeline, recognized WORLDWIDE, everything else is nonsense.

                Traditional history has compromised itself, so no one else is going to give the rights of judgment over the past of humanity to these "scientists".


                Loud words. Is there something behind them? What exactly did SCIENCE HISTORY compromise itself with?
                Do you have facts about this?
                I’m not talking about any specific people, but in GENERAL about ALL WORLD SCIENCE. After all, you blame her all now.

                I read well, the RU method is the main one, and therefore the rest are indirect and therefore not accurate, but your maxims do not speak about one thing, you are simply not a serious person.


                They read poorly.
                You don’t know the topic.
                In addition to the Radiocarbon method, there is a thermoluminescent method, dendrochronological, archaeological, which includes several methods (topological, narrative, analogous and others), archaeomagnetic and some others.
                Everything is not so simple, and it is not "sucked from the finger" like charlatans.
                But your answers show that you know something very, very superficially, or do not know at all. Because apart from Fomenko-like "researchers" you read nothing.
                Read on ... TWO again. laughing
          2. andj61
            andj61 3 November 2015 21: 46
            +1
            Quote: Sveles
            And who was not in agreement with the main course, maybe Isaac Newton?

            To the point! good
            Isaac Newton was precisely the disagreement who denied and criticized the historiography and the main dating of the events established by Scaliger, developed by Pettavius ​​and supported by the Catholic Church. The dating of historical events is based on the works of the mystic and numerologist Scaliger. The birth date of Christ, for example, he calculated on the basis of the rules of numerology. From there went the countdown of our era. And that is quite normal! wassat
            1. atalef
              atalef 3 November 2015 22: 03
              +1
              Quote: andj61
              Quote: Sveles
              And who was not in agreement with the main course, maybe Isaac Newton?

              To the point! good
              Isaac Newton was precisely the disagreement who denied and criticized the historiography and the main dating of the events established by Scaliger, developed by Pettavius ​​and supported by the Catholic Church. The dating of historical events is based on the works of the mystic and numerologist Scaliger. The birth date of Christ, for example, he calculated on the basis of the rules of numerology. From there went the countdown of our era. And that is quite normal! wassat

              Hi Andrew.
              Yes, they messed up with dates and the dark Middle Ages for 1000 years no documents and artifacts, and all of a sudden ... Renaissance.
              1. andj61
                andj61 3 November 2015 22: 07
                0
                Quote: atalef
                Hi Andrew.
                Yes, they messed up with dates and the dark Middle Ages for 1000 years no documents and artifacts, and all of a sudden ... Renaissance.

                Hello Alexander. But for almost a whole millennium, a special term was invented - "dark ages". It is clear that this is a dark matter. laughing
              2. kalibr
                4 November 2015 06: 58
                +1
                In fact, there are plenty of artifacts and documents. They just say no. In fact, there are not so few of them. And in the London library and in Paris, in libraries in the castles of the Loire. And effigius is complete, and the earliest is 1190. So it's not all bad ...
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Sweles
          Sweles 3 November 2015 20: 49
          0


          Quote: Glot
          I AM ? No, what are you. It’s just that in disputes with boobies I have NEVER heard clear, clear and documented arguments for what they are trying to prove. In addition to frank stupidity, sheer ignorance of what they are trying to talk about, and at the end of attempts to oppose the snake hiss, alas, nothing happens ... Why close your mouths, which sometimes can not connect two words? This is stupid, all the same, except for a slurred moo, nothing comes from them





          Ancient Byzantine mosaic. Everything is written in Church Slavonic (Old Russian) language.

          http://fashion.artyx.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000000/pic/000097.jpg
          Christ crowns the emperor Roman and his wife Eudoxia. Ivory, relief on the binding of the Besancon gospel, X or XI century. National Library, Paris. Not a word in Hellenic or Latin. All words are in pure Old Russian.

          but for example, the ancient Byzantine mosaic, all the inscriptions in the Old Russian language, so what language was spoken in Romea?
          1. andj61
            andj61 3 November 2015 20: 59
            +1
            Quote: Sveles
            Christ crowns the emperor Roman and his wife Eudoxia. Ivory, relief on the binding of the Besancon gospel, X or XI century. National Library, Paris. Not a word in Hellenic or Latin. All words are in pure Old Russian.

            but for example, the ancient Byzantine mosaic, all the inscriptions in the Old Russian language, so what language was spoken in Romea?

            "The Slavic Conquest of the World" by G. Nosovsky and A. Fomenko?
            They posed questions perfectly, but they didn’t really give answers to them - different books have different answers, different arguments, different explanations of the same events.
            1. Glot
              Glot 3 November 2015 21: 32
              +2
              "The Slavic Conquest of the World" by G. Nosovsky and A. Fomenko?
              They posed questions perfectly, but they didn’t really give answers to them - different books have different answers, different arguments, different explanations of the same events.


              And this is because these gentlemen write one thing without reading what they wrote earlier, and then they write another again, without reading (not remembering, not knowing) what they wrote again earlier.
              That is why there are no sensible answers, and the "arguments" are sometimes different.
              Confused in the testimony constantly. laughing
              Do not read this muck. Do not waste time.
            2. Bashibuzuk
              Bashibuzuk 3 November 2015 22: 12
              +2
              Guys, I respect .... honestly, from the bottom of my heart.
              I, maybe because of my age, can’t stand the stubborn spirit.
              Which only snake hisses see everywhere. And they hear.
              Yes, and with errors they write in Russian.
              .
              And, for example, the volume http://mreadz.com/new/index.php?id=82682&pages=1, Mikhail Postnikov, from whom he went, is NH Fini, is not seen at point blank range.
              The works of Kalyuzhny Dmitry Vitalyevich - and never has been.
              They will tell on a blue eye that ..http: //nasch-mir.ru/mistifikator-podzho-brachcholini/...o Podzhno Bracciolini is heard for the first time, and all this is bullshit.
              Yes, and about Isaac Newton ... from which, in fact, the audit went - they also do not know.
              .
              I am amazed .... "academic censorship".
              They seem to use mostly files, for grinding off false teeth.
              .
              And this apologist for academic censorship will mumble something else about "commercial projects"?
              And he himself intends to compete with Mother Teresa, at least, eh?
              Pure thoughts, pure hearts, pure minds ... transparent, thoughtless eyes ... and raking, greedy hands.
              So?
              .
              ..
              It's not FINA ... right, wrong.
              Any question, a priori, requires an answer. Something.
              But the assessment of this answer is a completely different QUESTION.
              1. kalibr
                4 November 2015 07: 03
                +1
                Yes it is, you are right! But it turns out strange:
                Quote: Bashibuzuk
                Pure thoughts, pure hearts, pure minds ... transparent, thoughtless eyes ... and raking, greedy hands.
                Pure eyes are always with the overthrowers, and the grasping hands are always with the ordinary historians. It doesn't work that way! Perhaps it would be more correct to say that there are enough of both of them on both sides of the barricades. And it is wrong to say that "nothing is known" only because you personally do not know it.
          2. Glot
            Glot 3 November 2015 21: 28
            +1
            Christ crowns the emperor Roman and his wife Eudoxia. Ivory, relief on the binding of the Besancon gospel, X or XI century. National Library, Paris. Not a word in Hellenic or Latin. All words are in pure Old Russian.


            Do you forgive it, it seems like you want to give evidence of something?
            Alas, I will upset you. This is Greek (Hellenic) language. Even if not purely Greek, then transformed from it. Even more accurately it will be said not a language, but a letter.
            So it goes.
            I advise you to study the Byzantine chronicles. What, how, where, and why.
            Questions will disappear by themselves. smile
            1. Sweles
              Sweles 3 November 2015 22: 21
              0


              Quote: Glot
              Christ crowns the emperor Roman and his wife Eudoxia. Ivory, relief on the binding of the Besancon gospel, X or XI century. National Library, Paris. Not a word in Hellenic or Latin. All words are in pure Old Russian.


              Do you forgive it, it seems like you want to give evidence of something?
              Alas, I will upset you. This is Greek (Hellenic) language. Even if not purely Greek, then transformed from it. Even more accurately it will be said not a language, but a letter.
              So it goes.
              I advise you to study the Byzantine chronicles. What, how, where, and why.
              Questions will disappear by themselves. smile


              on the second side of the U-turn clearly in Russian
              1. Bashibuzuk
                Bashibuzuk 3 November 2015 22: 41
                +1
                Did not you see the mockery in the answer?
                "You will forgive this, it seems like you want to give proof of something?"
                Need to object or what? Surrender voluntarily?
                .
                An illiterate adherent of TI is trying to shove his thoughts ... how to stay in business, have I put that horse on?
                .
                The rest is no longer important.
                No one.
              2. Glot
                Glot 3 November 2015 23: 14
                +1
                on the second side of the U-turn clearly in Russian


                Yes, the icon of the Savior Almighty and what? What do you want to say or show or prove with this icon?
                I just don’t understand what is it for?
                Well then, after the Byzantine chronicles, study Russian iconography as well.
                Good luck. smile
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Sweles
                  Sweles 4 November 2015 10: 48
                  0
                  In general, this icon of Christ Pantocrator (Almighty) refers to the 14th century.
                  Byzantine school of icon painting, supposedly a Byzantine icon.
                  http://www.icon-art.info/masterpiece.php?lng=ru&mst_id=924
                3. The comment was deleted.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Sweles
              Sweles 4 November 2015 11: 25
              0


              Quote: Glot
              Alas, I will upset you. This is Greek (Hellenic) language. Even if not purely Greek, then transformed from it. Even more accurately it will be said not a language, but a letter.


              here is the inscription from the Rosetta stone, the first word VASILION, here the letter C is made in Greek, and on the mosaic in the word VASILEVS the letter C is named like the Russian letter and not only that, so on the mosaic Christ with Emperor Constantine and Zoe is exactly the old Russian
            4. The comment was deleted.
  16. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 3 November 2015 15: 10
    +2
    I say to the author, it is necessary to rely on historical documents no matter what they are, and the best conclusions about the significance of a particular battle should be made on the basis of the country's historical development, and if our ancestors recognized the importance of the battle, it means that it is independent as it is described in the annals, in church books, etc.
    1. kalibr
      3 November 2015 18: 06
      +1
      So she wrote about it, but for some reason there are more pluses for minuses. This is not clear to me. And as if the author casts doubt on the battle itself and its significance.
  17. Glot
    Glot 3 November 2015 15: 56
    +2
    Quote: Gomunkul
    So, qualifications are tough and professional reviewing !!!
    In 200 years, if modern textbooks are preserved (but other "creations" of modern authors) of Ukraine may be preserved and they fall into the hands of someone in the future from descendants, they will also consider them as a primary source, because other modern sources, while maintaining the current the authorities will be "cleaned up". Because
    Winners write the story, so no losers are mentioned.
    Arthur Drexler
    hi


    There is such a thing as a combination of sources. And on the basis of this very totality, it is possible to draw certain conclusions.
    So, not one surviving Ukrainian textbook will draw the conclusions of future historians, I think.
    As for what the winners write, I already once mentioned in one of the topics. Not everything is so simple, and not everything can be rewritten in the right way.
    And if in your opinion, then it might be better not to believe in anything, and not look beyond your own nose? Then certainly no story will be needed, and there will be nothing to argue about. AND ? Or do you still believe in something? In that case, is that what you believe is true? smile
    1. Gomunkul
      Gomunkul 3 November 2015 16: 05
      +2
      There is such a thing as a combination of sources.
      This set of sources, we can observe today in all its glory, when Western news agencies talk about what is not. The whole industry is working to ensure that our contemporary compatriots cannot distinguish where the truth is and where the fiction.
      Or do you still believe in something?
      I try to rely on common sense. yes
      PS But all kinds of teachings just form fanatics who should blindly believe their teacher, perceiving what they said as the last truth. One of the last such teachings we can see in all its glory in Syria.wink
      1. Glot
        Glot 3 November 2015 16: 39
        +1
        This set of sources, we can observe today in all its glory, when Western news agencies talk about what is not. The whole industry is working to ensure that our contemporary compatriots cannot distinguish where the truth is and where the fiction.


        And why do you think that what they are talking about is not?
        If you are sure, then you use other sources, and you understand that all this is untrue.
        Here it is - a set of sources and conclusions made on its basis. wink

        I try to rely on common sense.
        PS But all kinds of teachings just form fanatics who should blindly believe their teacher, perceiving what they said as the last truth. One of the last such teachings we can see in all its glory in Syria


        And what does common sense hint at in connection with the subject of the Battle of Kulikovo? smile
        Well, do not compare fanatics with people gaining knowledge in various fields.
        Doctrine on HX at least, what is it in your opinion?
        1. Gomunkul
          Gomunkul 3 November 2015 16: 54
          0
          And what does common sense hint at in connection with the subject of the Battle of Kulikovo?

          Relying on the knowledge gained while studying at school, this battle is not in doubt. Common sense tells me that in order to draw a conclusion whether it was or not, you need to familiarize yourself personally with the primary sources (preferably in the original). Better to see once than hear a hundred times. yes
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  18. Glot
    Glot 3 November 2015 16: 52
    +4
    Quote: dmb
    Why are you so sure that the new adherents will be inclined towards semi-officialdom and not towards "hillocks"? Moreover, "the forbidden fruit is always sweet." The history of our own country is convincing evidence of this. Iskra was an underground newspaper, Voices were jammed, the result is known. Prohibit "Tatar emissions" and you will get more than one hundred of his supporters and not only among the Tatars. Even the most just government will never be deified by the people, and if the government only prohibits, without explaining, then only the "hillocks" you mentioned can call it fair.


    I do not agree in comparisons of "Iskra" or "Voices" with the stream of nonsense falling out on their heads now and with what they carry.
    These are still different things.
    Here we consider history, and all sorts of pseudo-scientific or simply charlatan interpretations of it. And "Iskra" and "Golos" carried in themselves opposition to the existing system, were aimed at undermining Power. This is a little different.
    When I was in the USSR, I listened to "The Voice", but it did not cause me to doubt that the Battle of Kulikovo carried the deliverance of Russia from the Horde, or relatively even more ancient events. Although the Voice was useful. Let's say I heard about Chernobyl earlier than official sources. wink
    Here is a real example.
    Yesterday I went to the bookstore, there in the department of historical literature is one of the "latest studies on NH" entitled approximately "How Russia-Horde conquered the American continent." Or something similar. And what is it ? After all, he will read the stupid, will be sure and will shout with foam at the mouth that it was so. And figs you will dissuade him !! smile Do not need qualifications? NECESSARY !!! And all these HX writers, as one friend of mine said: Shoot the fuck !!! Of course, I answered him that they say that we do not have the death penalty, but, he said softly, okay, they say, give 25 years then. laughing laughing No jokes, but you need to know the measure in everything.
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 3 November 2015 17: 07
      +2
      And what is characteristic, the article about the literary monument "The Legend of the Mamayev Massacre" from commentators, I am sure, very few people have read ... And how many opinions ... and "interesting" at times .. smile
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 3 November 2015 23: 14
        0
        Alexy ... Regards
        And which of the options do you want us to read - a hundred lists in four options ..
        ..Total - four hundred.
        There is no binding of lists according to options.
        So what ... after all?
        I am for three hundred and fourth. I like it more.
        And you?
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 4 November 2015 00: 41
          0
          The surviving lists belong to one edition, although they are divided into two editions resulting from the correspondence. To which edifice belong to three hundred and fourth? .. Remind me please .. hi
    2. dmb
      dmb 3 November 2015 22: 58
      0
      I think you don't quite understand. I rather share your views on the part of the official history, although there is a lot of inexplicable in it. But I was talking about something else, citing the example of Iskra, namely about your proposed ban. Iskra, Golos, Chronicle and Fomenko and Nosovsky are united by one thing, this is information. A simple ban will only testify to the fact that the information is true and the prohibitor simply has nothing to object ("Iskra"). Or he is so insane that he cannot do it (Voices).
      1. Glot
        Glot 3 November 2015 23: 24
        +3
        I think you don't quite understand. I rather share your views on the part of the official history, although there is a lot of inexplicable in it. But I was talking about something else, citing the example of Iskra, namely about your proposed ban. Iskra, Golos, Chronicle and Fomenko and Nosovsky are united by one thing, this is information. A simple ban will only testify to the fact that the information is true and the prohibitor simply has nothing to object ("Iskra"). Or he is so insane that he cannot do it (Voices).


        There are many "blank spots" in history, but they are gradually being filled. Science does not stand still.
        Regarding the neo-theories of unlearned people, by and large it’s just foam. The foam raised by the mud of the 90s, it will settle, dissolve and leave no trace. Since all the same knowing, thinking and understanding much more.
        You read the comments at least here of those who yell about the fallacy of history. If they stick deeper, they don’t know anything at all. We read one, two or five popularistic pseudoscientific books that are written not by historians at all, but by journalists, science fiction writers, and don’t understand at all. They write to earn their bread and butter. That's all.
        What about it? It has been said a thousand times about all this bacchanalia of charlatans.
        Bored ...
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. Buffalo
    Buffalo 4 November 2015 14: 39
    +1
    So, for a man and a woman, the difference in brain size is small - only 130 grams, but it matters. It is not in vain that most of the leaders are men, and this is not the case.
    This article is something remotely resembling a blind man's reasoning about stars.
    1. andj61
      andj61 4 November 2015 21: 14
      0
      Quote: Bison
      So, for a man and a woman, the difference in brain size is small - only 130 grams, but it matters. It is not in vain that most of the leaders are men, and this is not the case.
      This article is something remotely resembling a blind man's reasoning about stars.

      N. Gogol had a brain around 2000, and A. Franc - a little over 900 g. Does this mean that Gogol is smarter than most people, and A.Frans is dumber? what
      Then we must immediately declare: let the horse think, she has a bigger head! yes fellow
  21. Gunther
    Gunther 5 November 2015 18: 15
    0
    .Let's say, there was a battle, and the Russians won. Which of these? What is the point today in this victory? Eliminate Tatarstan as the heir to the Golden Horde?
    Author: vice president Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Tatarstan Raphael Khakimov


    Well, what can you expect from an "academician of the Republic of Tatarstan"?)))
    Do not tell my horseshoes!
    author: horse guy Julius