Avoid hats

Avoid hats



In a recent issue of NVO, material was published which, in my opinion, contained incorrect statements by one of our illustrious marshals aviation about the German pilot Erich Hartmann, well known throughout the world as the absolute record holder for the number of enemy aircraft shot down. Rummaging around in the domestic reference editions available to me, I did not find intelligible answers to the question that interests me, so I turned to foreign sources (I basically do not use the Internet in such cases).

VIEW FROM OCEAN


Here in front of me was published in England in 2001 year and reprinted in 2003 year in India not very voluminous work "Who is who in the wars of the XX century". The author is Spencer C. Tucker. Who's who in twentieth-century warfare. On the 131 page I find the last name I need and read: “Hartman Erich (1922 – 1993), officer of the German Air Force. In 1930-s he became interested in gliding and after graduating from high school he entered the service in the Luftwaffe. In March, 1942 graduated from the school of fighter pilots in Zerbst and was promoted to officer. Aimed at the Eastern Front in August 1942, by the end of the war he had more than 1400 sorties and 352 aircraft shot down in his flight documents, which is the highest figure in stories air war. Seven times he made a forced landing, once (August 1943 of the year) was taken prisoner, but he fled and returned to the location of the German troops. Most of his victories were won in battles with the Russians, but he had a chance to make short strides in Romania, where he shot down five American fighters "R-51" "Mustang". At the end of the war, he was handed over to the Russians and, after being released from prison in 1955, entered the service of the German Air Force, of which he left the colonel in 1973.

In the same book there is information about our famous fighter pilot Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub (1920 – 1993), and he was given eight lines more than Hartman.

Since the book was written by a professor of military history at the Virginia Military Institute (Lexington, Virginia, USA) and published in England, most of its more than 1000 articles are occupied - surprisingly, the Anglo-American military and government leaders, public figures and inventors. However, in fairness, it is worth noting that it presents prominent military and civil servants of other countries, including, in addition to I.N. Kozheduba, and our military leaders and statesmen of both the pre-revolutionary and Soviet periods, such as: M.V. Frunze, Generalissimo I.V. Stalin, Marshals of the Soviet Union G.K. Zhukov, M.N. Tukhachevsky, K.K. Rokossovsky, D.F. Ustinov, F.I. Golikov, V.I. Chuykov, admiral Fleet Soviet Union S.G. Gorshkov, Marshals of the Armored Forces P.A. Rotmistrov and Ya.N. Fedorenko, generals M.M. Popov, A.I. Antonov, S.V. Ilyushin, I.I. Fedyuninsky, etc. In this regard, I have no reason not to trust the source mentioned above.

There is another book that I would like to refer to, it is called “The best fighter pilots of the Second World War”. The author of this book is R. Jackson (R. Jackson. Fighter aces of World War II). Moreover, in a book published in the UK at the end of 1970, Ivan Kozhedub’s words are set as an epigraph: “Choose a person who has done his work perfectly as a model, and follow his example all your life.” This book describes the 14 best aces of the Second World War, including Hartman and Kozhedub. The book contains many interesting details about the German pilot and the Luftwaffe, and I, not wanting to propagandize the achievements of the Nazis, can not help but mention some of them. So, in August 1943 of the year in the skies over the Donbas Hartman's plane was shot down and he made an emergency landing on the territory controlled by Soviet troops. The pilot was briefly interrogated and sent to the rear by convoy. He, however, took advantage of the favorable moment that arose during the German air raid, started a fight with the guard, jumped out of the truck and ran, hiding in a field planted with sunflowers; then he crossed the front line and returned to his squadron.

In the fall of 1943, Hartman had 150 downed aircraft on his account, and he became known on both sides of the front line. German propaganda often mentioned his name in his programs, his photos were printed in newspapers along with photos of other aces of his squadron (JG-52). To our military he was known as Karaya-1 - by the call sign that the German pilot used in the radio exchange, and later received the nickname Black Hell. It is alleged that the Soviet command even established an award in 10 000 rubles to anyone who killed Hartman. The nose of the Messerschmit, on which Hartman flew, was decorated with a characteristic pattern in black paint. The book states that supposedly as soon as the enemy pilots realized that the pilot who flies on this plane is thus Karaya-1 and the Black Devil, they began to show an intensified reluctance to engage him in battle. Hartman had to paint over the drawing, and his Me-109 became indistinguishable from other aircraft. The result was amazing - in January and February of 1944, he shot down 50 airplanes in just 60 days ...

Hartman scored his last victory in the skies over Brno (Czechoslovakia), knocking down the Soviet Yak-11, and a few hours later he and the personnel of his unit surrendered to the armored unit of the US Armed Forces, but later they were all handed over to the Soviet military command. Hartman served 10 for years in Soviet camps and returned to Germany in 1955.

VICTORIES WERE NOT LIQUE


The above book emphasizes that the striking results achieved by the German pilots in the battles on the Soviet-German front were made possible by two crucial factors: the lack of experience of the air force officers and sergeants of the Soviet Air Force (with the exception of well-trained guards fighter air regiments that operated excellent) and the fact that the majority of German pilots for almost four years continuously, with the exception of short vacation breaks, were on the East Coast onte. As a result, with the accumulation of experience, the Russian front became a “happy hunting ground” for German pilots, many of whom became asses here ...

Hartman himself gave a fairly simple explanation for his amazing success: “In the air I was afraid of big and unfamiliar factors, in my world of feelings, clouds and sun were hatred and love. Today, I’m sure that 80 percent of my opponents didn’t suspect that I was somewhere near, until I opened fire. In this regard, my air battles were quick and easy. But one factor has always worked in my favor more than the rest. I found that I could see the enemy’s planes much earlier than my comrades — sometimes a few minutes earlier. It was not the result of experience or acquired skill, but the advantage that was given to me from birth. My rule for air combat is that the pilot, who was the first to see his opponent, had already half won ... ”

That's all about Hartman.

I really do not want us to again have hats and disrespect towards the enemy. During the Great Patriotic War, a strong, skilled and treacherous enemy fought with us, who in three months of fighting reached Moscow, and in the first year of the war the Red Army lost several million dead and prisoners. Today, the situation on our borders is very similar to the pre-war one, with the only difference being that the Soviet Union was then, and now the Russian Federation. But even then, and now we are left alone with our superior enemy, and we should only rely on ourselves.
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  1. Strashila 11 October 2015 05: 12 New
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    especially not a fake victory ... "Yak-11 (according to NATO classification: Moose) is a Soviet training fighter. Used by the countries of the socialist camp from 1947 to 1962."
    There is another joke ... when it was alleged that some German ace had made ... Already 8 sorties per day on the Yu-87 ... but only simple arithmetic showed ... that he could not physically complete more than 3's .. Here is such propaganda.
    "By the end of the war, Ivan Kozhedub, by that time the Guard Major, flew on La-7, made 330 sorties, shot down 120 enemy planes in 62 air battles." ... this is because not every sortie is combat, not every combat is a clash.
    1. spech 11 October 2015 05: 15 New
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      from wiki
      and in October 1946 a prototype appeared, which received the designation Yak-11
      repeat
      1. i80186 11 October 2015 06: 26 New
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        If you look at the numbers in terms of logic, then doubts arise. For example, the best aces of all countries of both coalitions, and together - 472 shot down, and he has 352, well, of course there is no propaganda. I don’t even want to talk about the rest. laughing
        1. rotmistr60 11 October 2015 07: 12 New
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          352 downed aircraft

          The fact of the matter is that the Germans had offsets for the downed planes very different from the accepted rules in the USSR. Hence such unrealistic numbers.
          1. igordok 11 October 2015 07: 32 New
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            Quote: rotmistr60
            The fact of the matter is that the Germans had offsets for the downed planes very different from the accepted rules in the USSR. Hence such unrealistic numbers.

            In Germany, the "hundred" asss began to appear not in the 1941-42 years, but since the beginning of the 1943, when the battlefields as a rule remained for the USSR, and it was difficult to confirm or deny the victory of the Luftwaffe.
            1. yushch 11 October 2015 08: 21 New
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              Quote: igordok
              Quote: rotmistr60
              The fact of the matter is that the Germans had offsets for the downed planes very different from the accepted rules in the USSR. Hence such unrealistic numbers.

              In Germany, the "hundred" asss began to appear not in the 1941-42 years, but since the beginning of the 1943, when the battlefields as a rule remained for the USSR, and it was difficult to confirm or deny the victory of the Luftwaffe.


              This is easily explained by the fact that in the early days of the war we lost about 1500 aircraft only at airfields. Perhaps hundreds of aces in the standings and were destroyed on the ground. Somewhere I met the info that when we counted the total number of our planes shot down for the war, according to German data, that the figure is much more than the calculations we had, along with non-combat losses. And I also heard that the Germans did not have such a strict system for confirming downed aircraft as ours, i.e. a smoking plane that left the battle could not fall, and even the Germans collectively shot down planes as far as our pilot could reach our airdrome, but I could be wrong here.
            2. captain 11 October 2015 12: 30 New
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              A few numbers, for those who are involved in hat-making. During the war years we (the USSR) released; Dynamics of production of aircraft for the Soviet Air Force in the period from 22.06.1941. by 09.05.1945 Type of aircraft with 22.06.1941, 1942 1943 1944 to 9.05.1945 Total
              3941 9490 14275 16346 6635 50687 fighters
              Attack aircraft 1061 7634 11254 10297 3664 33930
              1891 2578 2672 3165 1597 11903 bombers
              Po-2 (night bombardment) 1009 2130 2812 4382 1585 11918
              TOTAL (without Po-2) 6893 19722 28201 29808 11896 96520
              At the beginning of the war, we had over 20tys. combat aircraft in our armed forces. Around 17thousand we were put allies.

              The dynamics of aircraft production in Germany
              during the period 1941-1944 Type of aircraft 1941 1942 1943 1944 Total
              Fighters (day and night) 2964 4908 10187 23805 41864
              Attack aircraft 696 1092 2817 4971 9576
              3456 4428 5019 2596 15499 bombers
              1070 980 1030 1535 4615 Scouts
              In total, the Germans, according to various estimates, released about 77 thousand aircraft.
              Plus, we got about 17 thousand aircraft for lend-lease. In addition to us, the Germans fought with two countries that produced large numbers of aircraft. Only the United States released 287tys. warplanes. England and Canada released over a hundred thousand. You should never belittle the enemy, we only beg for our victory. Already in 41 a year we “beat” the enemy on foreign territory, even composed songs about it. I remember how our cheer patriots, led by "the best defense minister of all time" Grachev, "took" Grozny with one landing regiment. How much can you do bragging and hatred? Indeed, because of this, then our people die. You can’t do this. Unfortunately, we do not even learn from our mistakes. We’ll tear them all, beat them all, and as soon as we are defeated somewhere, we immediately begin to speak; ".. that they were preparing for the wrong war and our opponents are not following the rules of it ..).
              1. Yuri from Volgograd 11 October 2015 13: 09 New
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                Quote: captain
                th. How much can you do bragging and hatred? After all, because of this, then they die

                Quote: captain
                A few figures

                That's all this statistics rolled out almost in vain.
                In fact, there were too many non-combat losses, often the equipment was completely incomparable in terms of performance characteristics and in the end the distribution of forces was different. I’m generally silent about the use and combat missions.
                Well, the chances were really extremely effective, but if you compare what Hartman went through and, for example, Pokryshkin, then Alexander Ivanovich’s combat path is much more complicated and much more outstanding.
                Given the conditions of the fighting, I sincerely believe that Pokryshkin is the best ace of the Second World War.
                Speaking of statistics, 3/4 of the Air Force lost the chances on the eastern front (in relation to armor and manpower).
                In general, I can’t put a minus for you, a sound thought is beyond doubt, but I’ll think for a plus (I want to put it, but which confuses).
            3. Scraptor 11 October 2015 14: 02 New
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              And in Romania 5 mustangs shot him down and not he them wink In general, he was panicky afraid of being sent to the western front, and before that, to the air defense to defend the Reich. laughing
              More precisely, they didn’t shoot down, but he saw them and immediately jumped with a parachute winked
              1. oldzek 11 October 2015 20: 14 New
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                I don’t understand? Have you read fiction?
                1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 30 New
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                  it's true ... and not all!
                  from his memoirs. bully
              2. complete zero 11 October 2015 21: 55 New
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                to compare the battles in the Western theater and the East, in general, complete nonsense (the conditions are different) ... these Koi Mustangs drove Eric there at that moment there were about 20 pieces ... this is to the fact that in the West and even in 1944 the Allies had an advantage in quantity huge ..
                1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 42 New
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                  where did they drive him? gasoline over or were there any hits? It was in Romania and not in the west.
          2. Bayonet 11 October 2015 08: 25 New
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            Quote: rotmistr60
            Hence such unrealistic numbers.

            You should take into account the tactics of air combat, which adhered to Hartman. He did not rush headlong into a meat grinder. Hartmann's favorite tactic was to ambush the weakest and most vulnerable adversary.
            1. Yuri from Volgograd 11 October 2015 10: 50 New
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              Quote: Bayonet
              Quote: rotmistr60
              Hence such unrealistic numbers.

              You should take into account the tactics of air combat, which adhered to Hartman. He did not rush headlong into a meat grinder. Hartmann's favorite tactic was to ambush the weakest and most vulnerable adversary.

              Fair, but far from complete.
              I will write for a long time, boring, BUT FACT.
              Firstly, we’ll divorce what was considered with us, what they have, and then remember how it was thought.
              Well, OUR for Victory it was necessary to prove the fact of a downed plane. If a broken-down hans flew over the front line, smoking and lounging, this did not count as a downed plane.
              Unlike ours, the odds were considered not downed planes, but victories. If damage, smoke, or flying fragments were recorded from his fire, then hurray hurray, victory in the asset.
              Further, what did anyone need as evidence:
              Ours in the first period of the war was necessary to set off right up to the commission on the place of the downed enemy in order to remove numbers from the engine of the downed enemy (very realistic in the period of constant retreat). For example, the crews of our bombers, who were accompanied by our fighters, often did not take witnesses. As an example, George Kostylev or Alexander Pokryshkin has a different actual number of shot down and scored.
              Hans had everything much more democratic, only two requirements:
              1. Any witness - 1 piece
              2. Questionnaire (in my opinion there are 21 points that need to be filled)
              ALL!!! Nifiga those no gimp!
              So the same Hartman most often had one single witness - his follower on a free hunt.
              Next, let us recall together who has always been the target for Pokryshkin or Kozhedub? The first goal for them has always been lucky links or groups! They always rushed at them knowing that they were the most seasoned!
              Whom did Hartman like to attack? According to the memoirs, his favorite target was a lonely damaged or inexperienced aircraft, the benefit of such an experienced flyer was calculated instantly and accurately. In his memoirs, Hartman himself wrote that he considered bullshit “sabotage” (I do not remember exactly that phrase) as nonsense and terribly did not like to participate in air battles.
              For me, the Hans had much better fighters than the Hartman.
              By the way, the way samurai fought has a lot more respect for me, but this is a separate issue.
              In general, Hartman and many other experts were undoubtedly effective fighters, but the plane of their application and, for example, my idol, Alexander Ivanovich, was completely different (Pokryshkin from the first days of the war fought with the overwhelming dominance of Luftwaffe aviation and was extremely effective).
              1. Meta-65 11 October 2015 20: 34 New
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                That's right, for this, the Germans have one pilot two-three-times more victories. F nv itself is more dede- ours!
              2. Alf
                Alf 11 October 2015 21: 00 New
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                Quote: Yuri from Volgograd
                2. Questionnaire (in my opinion there are 21 points that need to be filled)

                Anyone cite these 21 points in translation into Russian? The legend about this instruction has been around for a very long time, but for some reason no one has brought it yet.
                1. Yuri from Volgograd 11 October 2015 21: 15 New
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                  Quote: Alf
                  Quote: Yuri from Volgograd
                  2. Questionnaire (in my opinion there are 21 points that need to be filled)

                  Anyone cite these 21 points in translation into Russian? The legend about this instruction has been around for a very long time, but for some reason no one has brought it yet.

                  There is a routine.
                  Place of battle, who is the witness, type of aircraft and all that.
                  Its translation is not difficult to find.
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 11 October 2015 21: 53 New
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                    Quote: Yuri from Volgograd
                    Its translation is not difficult to find.

                    If it does not complicate, lay out, please, too lazy to break the rubble.
            2. Peterhof 73 11 October 2015 12: 20 New
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              You should take into account the tactics of air combat, which adhered to Hartman. He did not rush headlong into a meat grinder. Hartmann's favorite tactic was to ambush the weakest and most vulnerable adversary.

              We must still remember that there were squadrons in the Luftwaffe, which brought together entire units of "experts" who practically did not get involved in group battles with Soviet fighters. They held at high altitude watching the "dog dump" of aerial combat. When they saw an enemy who was yawning or who left the battle, the "experts" made a dive maneuver for the victim, shot a doomed enemy aircraft, and then, using the "Bf-109" advantage in climbing, they quickly went up, usually to the sunny side. Given the huge number of aircraft participating in air battles (the “blue ribbon of the Kuban” for the summer of 1943, for example) such “Sturzspitz” —attack German “expert” could have performed from 3 to 5 in one battle. In addition, this category of pilots allowed "free hunting" in which they hunted for single aircraft in the rear of the Soviet troops. With this hunt for the sake of victories, they did not disdain the hunt for ambulance aircraft, as well as aircraft on takeoff or landing. Hartman was lucky to get into the squadron of "experts." The score of his victories increased exponentially precisely when he was to become the "blond knight of the Reich" in the interests of propaganda. Prior to this, he did not show any special results in the air. He would not have been lucky, and he would have become an ordinary “Kochmarik” (that is, a pilot for countering fighters). Then they would have killed him as cute and the world would not have known anything about Erich Hartman. (You never know how many such Hartmans have fertilized the Russian land). And so he gloriously served as the enemy of anti-Soviet (anti-Russian) propaganda, not only during the war but also after its end and continues to serve to this day.
              1. Captain nemo 11 October 2015 15: 48 New
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                Quote: Petergofsky73
                Then they would have killed him as cute and the world would not have known anything about Erich Hartman

                In one of the programs about aviation on the Echo of Moscow, the Luftwaffe aces were discussed, and it seems that it was said that when he saw a much superior enemy, he simply turned the plane around and escaped without hiding it from anyone and not considering himself a coward, and no one considered it as such . Probably here he was right.
                1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 15: 55 New
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                  Quote: Captain Nemo
                  Эхо Москвы

                  echo of war .....
                2. Peterhof 73 11 October 2015 16: 07 New
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                  Quote: Captain Nemo
                  Quote: Petergofsky73
                  Then they would have killed him as cute and the world would not have known anything about Erich Hartman

                  In one of the programs about aviation on the Echo of Moscow, the Luftwaffe aces were discussed, and it seems that it was said that when he saw a much superior enemy, he simply turned the plane around and escaped without hiding it from anyone and not considering himself a coward, and no one considered it as such . Probably here he was right.



                  Most of the characters of the Echo of Moscow heroes would have fled not only at the sight of the enemy, but only hearing about his existence. Moreover, none of the "handshakes" would not consider them cowards. So what is sour is your argument. Keyword "echo matzah".
                3. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 14 New
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                  this is not cowardice this is the calculation of their capabilities (the Germans did not like excessive risk) but this does not mean that they were bad pilots))))
              2. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 08 New
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                Well, they didn’t get involved in the carousel at all because of cowardice))) LTX messers allowed us to fight on verticals (and a carousel or swara) is more a turn ... which was typical for our cars, unlike German
                1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 45 New
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                  he did not engage in any maneuvering battle at all ... and he selected only the weakest opponents. Messer kept a good turn, fokker even better.
          3. Buffalo 11 October 2015 10: 05 New
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            It's true. The famous pilot Popkov Vitaly Ivanovich, who served as the prototype of the Maestro, it was he who shot down Hartman, wrote that the counting system shot down in the group of enemy aircraft operated by the Germans was different from ours, which required reliable evidence.
            About Popkov V.I.
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%92%D0%B8

            %D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

            About Hartman and the Maestro.
            http://www.dddkursk.ru/number/552/new/002046/
            1. Captain45 12 October 2015 10: 35 New
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              Quote: Bison
              It's true. The famous pilot Popkov Vitaly Ivanovich, who served as the prototype of the Maestro, it was he who shot down Hartman, wrote that the counting system shot down in the group of enemy aircraft operated by the Germans was different from ours, which required reliable evidence.

              On the topic of counting downed planes, it was true that for a long time there was an article here at VO, so it said that the Germans kept records of the number of engines of downed planes, i.e., shot down one twin-engine bomber, and consider it as 2 of the plane.
          4. veksha50 11 October 2015 21: 14 New
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            Quote: rotmistr60
            The fact of the matter is that the Germans had offsets for the downed planes very different from the accepted rules in the USSR. Hence such unrealistic numbers.



            Something resembles one country whose armed forces destroy every day either a tank division or a Russian GRU brigade ...
        2. Bersaglieri 11 October 2015 09: 40 New
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          "352 air victories", the actual number shot down - about 3-3.5 times less (if you use the methods of assessment / offset of air victories, adopted by the USSR Air Force or the allies)
          Immediately "miracles dissipate";)
          1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 14: 07 New
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            somewhere around 200-250, no more ... in the USSR Air Force there were pilots about the same personal and group score, who also did not deal exclusively with trapping newcomers or leaving a serviceable plane, while it was possible to fight without extreme risk .

            Hartmann got about a hundred victories this time, after they no longer followed his accountability, therefore he did not receive the highest award (like Rudel).
            1. captain 11 October 2015 19: 58 New
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              Of course, ours were more honest, the Germans were eating.
              1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 26 New
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                of course! ... whose is yours?
        3. tolian 11 October 2015 11: 33 New
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          Why the author got here with this article. We have already discussed this unprecedented number of aircraft allegedly shot down by this ace. Discussed by people who know what they are talking about. It's all about the accounting features of the “shot down” in Germany. Of course all this nonsense is propaganda. And the author is being or cunning. Introduces into the minds of youngsters the "exploits" of the Aryanskv.
        4. Peterhof 73 11 October 2015 13: 48 New
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          Quote: i80186
          If you look at the numbers in terms of logic, then doubts arise. For example, the best aces of all countries of both coalitions, and together - 472 shot down, and he has 352, well, of course there is no propaganda. I don’t even want to talk about the rest. laughing


          For Soviet pilots of fighter aircraft, the primary task was to protect their bombers and attack aircraft from attacks by enemy fighters. A secondary task was to counteract the enemy’s “battlefield” bomber aircraft, and protect the front edge of our troops from attack aircraft. Destruction of enemy fighters was a third-rate task for the "Stalinist falcons". The impressive numbers of those shot down for our fighters were obtained mainly by pilots of the Guards IAP, who were allowed to "free hunt".
          Those. the overwhelming majority of our fighters was firmly “tied” to bombers and “hunchback” ILs. In such circumstances, the pilots thought only about the safety of the aircraft being escorted (allowed the Germans to bring down the "humpback" and you will go to trial). Where was there to replenish personal accounts? And it wasn’t in our nature to stick out personally. Only in our Air Force was the concept of "shot down in a group"). The same Pokryshkina A.I. personal account is much more official. Just part of the destroyed aircraft of the enemy was scattered "into a group." This was done, among other things, to educate young pilots so that they would gain confidence in the battle. This once again emphasizes the collective, comradely character of the Soviet people of that time. The feeling of "elbow", mutual assistance, the team principle in battle and at home is the spiritual core Our Victory! The moral advantage was ours and to a small extent this contributed to the breaking of the ridge to the very powerful Luftwaffe enemy.
          The Germans, on the contrary, were the opposite. All the flaws of bourgeois, fascist society came to aviation. Whatever the "British scholarship .. (ugh you) historians" would sing along to glorify the Teutonic power, the division of people into the elite ("experts" Hartman, Krupinski, Graf, Kittel and others)
          and laborers ("Kochmariki" -pilots for a "dog dump" in the air) existed until the very end of the war. This ruined them when the “experts” took the lead in the 44th year.
          1. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 19 New
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            plyusanul for laborers ... but about the bourgeois-fascist I do not quite agree, although there were certainly finished but on the whole the Luftwaffe fighter pilots were nobles (most likely)))) it was considered bad form to kill a pilot who left the car, etc.
            1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 48 New
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              On the eastern front they began to do this first.
        5. smershxnumx 11 October 2015 17: 21 New
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          I agree 100%! But underestimate the likely opponent - "....." am
          1. dali 12 October 2015 00: 24 New
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            Quote: smerx24
            I agree 100%! But underestimate the likely opponent - "....." am


            Of course, underestimating the enemy is very bad ... only the author of this article has completely different ideas with the sauce "underestimating the enemy is very bad"! am
      2. afdjhbn67 11 October 2015 06: 39 New
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        It would be better if Yuriev directed his energy for other purposes ...
      3. vladimirZ 11 October 2015 08: 21 New
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        About Hartman ...


        The fact that Hartman is a born and experienced pilot is a fact.
        But we must not forget about the different tactics of the actions of our and German aviation in the 2nd World War, and the different accounting system of the "shot down" with us and the Germans.

        Our fighter aircraft were mainly tasked with providing cover for troops from air strikes, covering troops, bombers, attack aircraft and protecting and escorting them.
        German aces were tasked with achieving air supremacy, "free hunting" in choosing a goal.
        The Germans did not get involved in air combat, where there was the superiority of Soviet aviation. They mostly looked for easy prey, weak young pilots, single aircraft, such as the one specified in the Yak-11 article, the last shot down by Hartman in 1945.
        In addition, the German system of "shot down" allowed to record in the account of victories to the pilot, a victory confirmed by another pilot.
        And for ours, the fact of a direct downed plane "on the ground" was needed. Moreover, those who fell on the territory of the enemy, and who are not able to be respectively confirmed by ground services, were not counted as pilots.
        The fact that there was a very large combat load on the pilot, especially at the end of the war, due to the lack of flight personnel, also played a big difference in the shot-downs of German aces.
        So at Hartman the number of sorties and air battles was - 1400/825, respectively, at Kozhedub - 330/120, at Pokryshkin - 650/156.
        Given the effectiveness of combat skill - the number of battles per 1 "shot down", then Kozhedub won the first place - 1,93, only then Hartman - 2,34, and Pokryshkin - 2,64. Moreover, it should be borne in mind that Pokryshkin was not a simple pilot like Hartman and Kozhedub, but since July 1943 the deputy commander of the regiment, since March 1944 the commander of the regiment with a corresponding change in official functions.
        Therefore, there is such a big difference in the shot down of our aces and Germans.
      4. 12423 student 11 October 2015 09: 40 New
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        Yak-11 - it's great! Hartman is the greatest ace, he knew how to move into the future!
        1. Buffalo 11 October 2015 10: 17 New
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          As for the Yak-11, do not gloat. Most likely, they simply mixed up the type of a downed plane.
          Undoubtedly, Erich Hartman, a real ace.
          He is right in that he had excellent vision. Judging by the photo, he has a large interaxial distance of the eyes, therefore, he had a high degree of periscope, allowing you to see far. It is a well-known fact among oculists that vision, conditionally taken as 100%, is not the limit!
          There are known people who had eyesight in both 200 and 300%, especially those who were valued among hunter-fishermen.
          1. Peterhof 73 11 October 2015 12: 44 New
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            It is a well-known fact among oculists that vision, conditionally taken as 100%, is not the limit!
            There are known people who had eyesight in both 200 and 300%, especially those who were valued among hunter-fishermen.


            And this one is probably all 360 degrees. sees. Valuable instance. Only now the Buryat hunter-hunter overlooked and received a kul in the hole.
        2. Peterhof 73 11 October 2015 12: 28 New
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          Quote: student 12423
          Yak-11 - it's great! Hartman is the greatest ace, he knew how to move into the future!


          He (or rather his name) really knew how to move into the future. He served both the Goebels and blatantly American propaganda to fame. A sort of "blond knight" of the Western world.
          1. Peterhof 73 11 October 2015 15: 59 New
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            Well, what are the cons? Very strange. Although it is no longer surprising.
      5. Temples 11 October 2015 12: 57 New
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        MINUS article !!!
        Hatchery is a neglect of the enemy. There is nothing good in this.
        And there is no hatred in the Army either. And the press is not visible.
        Under the pretext of hatred, the author dumped an article on the fascist.

        Praise a defeated opponent? What for?
        This article describes the enemy Hartmann. He brought death to our people.
        Professional pilots know who fought and how. There are no secrets for them in this thread.
        But we, the inhabitants of the country against which this fascist fought, do not need to force his name into the head!
        His name MUST be forgotten, deleted from history. And we, as winners, have the RIGHT to it!
        And in the USSR this right was used.
        For this reason, the author did not find the information he needed about this enemy in our sources.
        And climbed into the "world sources". There the fascists are not forgotten. They remember, even honor. So the author worships.

        The author would be better to talk about our heroes here.
        To remind those who saved our Motherland from the Nazis.
        They are worthy of fame and eternal memory.
        Or is he more interested in writing about fascists?
        1. dali 12 October 2015 00: 27 New
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          Quote: Temples
          Or is he more interested in writing about fascists?


          It’s just a blatantly paid Troll ...
    2. the polar 11 October 2015 08: 00 New
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      For a long time already about "great German aces" military historians chewed and chewed. The Soviet Air Force had a different accounting system for downed planes, in addition to the words of the pilot, it was necessary to confirm the observers-spotters from the ground or any of the representatives of the ground RF. The Germans had enough confirmation of two accomplices, and sometimes just a "word of honor", especially if he was considered an ass. The author decided to chew the old chaff again
    3. Bayonet 11 October 2015 09: 06 New
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      Quote: Strashila
      There is another joke ... when it was alleged that some German ace had committed ... as many as 8 sorties per day on the U-87 ..

      Hans-Ulrich Rudel is the most productive pilot of the diving bomber Yu-87 "Shtuk" during the Second World War .. In terms of the number of sorties and their effectiveness, no other pilot could even get close to Rudel. During the 2nd World War, he made 2530 sorties. Destroyed ... I will not write - still do not want to believe, and an extra cry is useless. Sank the battleship "Marat", the leader of the destroyers "Minsk". Rudel’s plane was crashed over 30 times, incl. several times over enemy territory, while Rudel was wounded five times. It is interesting that in all cases his "Piece" was hit by anti-aircraft fire and never - by fighters. Six times Rudel himself landed behind the front line to take out the crews of the downed Ju-87.
      Our fathers and grandfathers fought against such strong opponents. AND WIN!
      1. kotev19 11 October 2015 18: 56 New
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        Hauptmann Hans-Ulrich Rudel, the pilot of the Stucks, conducts an instructor-methodical lesson to test the attack of Soviet tanks with the help of 37-mm cannons of a diving bomber Yu-87. 1943, on the eve of the Battle of Kursk.
        1. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 24 New
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          for me it’s better Hartman, he fought with equals and this one (I don’t know what to call), in addition to tanks and ships, he also shot medical crosses
          1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 52 New
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            With some equal? Hartmann, almost without risk of getting a response and without getting into a maneuvering battle from a dive, shot newcomers who had started to gape. If the “interception" did not succeed then the second did not start.
            This, on the contrary, risked getting from anti-aircraft guns.
    4. Finches 11 October 2015 10: 13 New
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      There is no desire to talk about the inaccuracies of the article, but if its grain is that hat-tapping sentiment and neglect of the enemy is bad, then it’s hard to disagree! Unfortunately, there is such a trait in our mentality ... Historical experience, however, shows that this trait is mainly not characteristic of the ordinary soldier and officer, but high-ranking guys, which leads to tragedies!
      1. lelikas 11 October 2015 11: 47 New
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        Quote: Finches
        There is no desire to talk about the inaccuracies of the article, but if its grain is that hat-tapping sentiment and neglect of the enemy is bad, then it’s hard to disagree! Unfortunately, there is such a trait in our mentality ... Historical experience, however, shows that this trait is mainly not characteristic of the ordinary soldier and officer, but high-ranking guys, which leads to tragedies!

        I can not agree, a good example - the first losses of aviation in the war of 888 - underestimated the air defense of the Georgians ...
        Again, the tactics of "Free Hunting", gave a much greater chance of success.
        + according to the recollections of his grandfather, who went through the whole war and ended it in the 1st Air Army -
        especially at the beginning of the war - ours flew on everything that could get off the ground - on some machines the chassis didn’t retract, the cab lights didn’t close, the engines breathed into the air - but still went into battle. how techniques were twisted - in general, a separate book needs to be written.
        Nevertheless, we won.
        1. Basarev 12 October 2015 07: 30 New
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          Does anyone know the most productive pilot of the IL-2? And his achievements?
          1. lelikas 12 October 2015 11: 10 New
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            Quote: Basarev
            Does anyone know the most productive pilot of the IL-2? And his achievements?

            EFIMOV Alexander Nikolaevich
            In total, during the war years, Efimov made 222 sorties on the Il-2 attack aircraft. In battle, Captain Efimov destroyed 30 echelons, 126 tanks, 193 field and 43 anti-aircraft guns; in air battles, he shot down 2 aircraft in person and 5 in the group. In addition, Efimov during the war destroyed 85 aircraft at the airfields, which is the highest achievement among Soviet pilots of all kinds of aviation.
            http://pda.diary.ru/~flugzojg/p158361827.htm?oam
    5. Captain45 12 October 2015 10: 27 New
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      Quote: Strashila
      There is another joke ... when it was alleged that some German ace had made ... Already 8 sorties per day on the Yu-87 ... but only simple arithmetic showed ... that he could not physically complete more than 3's .. Here is such propaganda.

      I came across a book “Iron Cross” from a friend of mine, about 700 pages with more than one, all the gentlemen of the “Iron Cross” from the moment of the establishment of the order with the description of the feat for which he was awarded. So there they wrote about one pilot who performed on U-87 a day Already 17 sorties and knocked out either 20 or 30 of Soviet tanks. Well, this acquaintance tells me that they say what heroes are Germans. For what I suggested to him using available data to take 24 an hour in days and take time for refueling, weapons, flight time to places of battle and back, as well as devour b for the pilot and see what is left of 24 hours. I had to add 2 hours and 30 minutes to days. After such simple calculations, the acquaintance sharply revised his attitude to German heroes. “3,14 balls are all,” he said. And that’s why there’s not such a book about Cavaliers of the Order of Glory or the Red Banner, GSS? Where does the political department or propaganda of the Moscow Region (as they call them now) look?
  2. spech 11 October 2015 05: 13 New
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    And what's the point of this article?
    1. Strashila 11 October 2015 05: 20 New
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      The meaning of the article ... is that only bloody Stalin defeated the corpses of heaven.
      1. Strashila 11 October 2015 06: 01 New
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        Given the minus ... it means correctly outlined the essence of the article.
        1. Andrey Yuryevich 11 October 2015 07: 36 New
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          Quote: Strashila
          Given the minus ... it means correctly outlined the essence of the article.

          everything is normal, on instinct the hand of people minus bullets, corrected below ... laughing
    2. afdjhbn67 11 October 2015 07: 59 New
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      Quote: spech
      And what's the point of this article?


      With the help of such articles, the feat of the Soviet people is eroded and debased .. Remember the end of 80 and the beginning of 90 when, with the help of such affectors, the psyche of entire generations was destroyed ..
      The information content of such articles is as if you were interested in the migration of ground squirrels in the steppes of Astrakhan ..
      1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 08: 32 New
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        Quote: afdjhbn67
        With the help of such articles, the feat of the Soviet people is eroded and abased

        Quite the opposite! It is necessary to write the truth and tell what a STRONG adversary our people defeated! But portraying the German army as a bunch of idiots, the feat of the people is really minimized! A logical question arises - where did such victims come from if the enemy was stupid and cowardly?
        1. afdjhbn67 11 October 2015 08: 50 New
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          Quote: Bayonet
          Quote: afdjhbn67
          With the help of such articles, the feat of the Soviet people is eroded and abased

          Quite the opposite! It is necessary to write the truth and tell what a STRONG adversary our people defeated! But portraying the German army as a bunch of idiots, the feat of the people is really minimized! A logical question arises - where did such victims come from if the enemy was stupid and cowardly?


          In this case, you mean the other extreme ..
          1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 09: 14 New
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            Quote: afdjhbn67
            In this case, you mean the other extreme ..

            Which one? I am no longer a boy and had the opportunity to talk with many front-line soldiers at one time. No one considered the Germans a weak adversary.
            1. afdjhbn67 11 October 2015 12: 00 New
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              Quote: Bayonet
              I am no longer a boy and had the opportunity to talk with many front-line soldiers at one time.

              Absolutely similar to your situation ..
              I just meant that it is not necessary to heroify the Nazis too much and at the same time consider them a weak adversary, and with regards to this article, under the guise of seemingly good intentions, there is a secret whitening of Nazism because a drop of stone is sharpening if it is difficult for you and me to distort life attitudes then youth will usually make the exact opposite conclusion hi
              1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 13: 55 New
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                Quote: afdjhbn67
                if it’s already difficult for you and me to distort the attitudes of life, then young people will usually make the completely opposite conclusion

                I don’t understand Nikolay, what does “excessive heroization” consist of? After all, no one praises the Nazi regime of Germany and does not justify the crimes of the Nazis, but it is not worth distorting the facts. Our youth is not so stupid as not to distinguish falsehoods. You should not expose the enemy as a coward and unworthy, otherwise this youth will have questions that will be inconvenient to answer. We need to write more about our heroes and at what cost the victory was won, then everything will be in order. hi
                1. poquello 11 October 2015 15: 30 New
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                  Quote: Bayonet
                  Quote: afdjhbn67
                  if it’s already difficult for you and me to distort the attitudes of life, then young people will usually make the completely opposite conclusion

                  I don’t understand Nikolay, what does “excessive heroization” consist of? After all, no one praises the Nazi regime of Germany and does not justify the crimes of the Nazis, but it is not worth distorting the facts ...

                  and the facts are not about that at all
                  Senior sergeant Kozhedub survived only because he remembered the rule in time: "Look back before the attack."

                  Kozhedub, Ivan Nikitovich
                  Fidelity to the Fatherland
                  http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kozhedub1/index.html
              2. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 27 New
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                then it’s necessary to understand the personalities ... Hartman, unlike Rudel, was not a Nazi
        2. w3554152 11 October 2015 10: 21 New
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          Quote: Bayonet
          A logical question arises - where did such victims come from if the enemy was stupid and cowardly?


          Due to the destruction of the civilian population mainly. Article minus. Hartman is a product of Goebbels' Office.
          1. dali 12 October 2015 00: 32 New
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            Quote: w3554152
            Due to the destruction of the civilian population mainly. Article minus. Hartman is a product of Goebbels' Office.


            1000% agree ...
  3. mivmim 11 October 2015 05: 35 New
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    Article minus. The author is trying to make us admire the enemy and belittle our capabilities, shove patriotism out of the way, sit under the pin ... dos and don’t cry. To the author: no need to post any articles here anymore, everything is clear with you.
    1. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 05: 46 New
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      Quote: mivmim
      Article minus. The author is trying to make us admire the enemy and belittle our capabilities, shove patriotism out of the way, sit under the pin ... dos and don’t cry. To the author: no need to post any articles here anymore, everything is clear with you.

      The author is trying to say, enough of the slogans - “Little blood, a mighty blow”, “we will smash the enemy in someone else’s territory.” All this we went through in 1941. What this turned out to be for our Motherland, what trials and hardships, everyone probably remembers. If someone does not remember or does not know, or has forgotten, God is his judge. Maybe I’m wrong, but I understood the article that way. The enemy is an enemy, and it’s stupid not to underestimate him. But he is a fascist, ISIS or someone else, it doesn’t matter.
      1. Strashila 11 October 2015 05: 59 New
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        "The author is trying to say, enough of the slogans-" Little blood, a mighty blow "" ... the fact of the matter is that the author is not trying to say this, he simply refers to propaganda articles and myths, and this is not the same thing.
        1. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 06: 16 New
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          Quote: Strashila
          he simply refers to propaganda articles and myths, and this is not the same thing.

          And the slogans are just taken from propaganda articles and myths.
      2. mivmim 11 October 2015 07: 20 New
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        Maybe I'm wrong, but the article understood it that way.
        To a point, of course not right.
        If you’re catching up on yourself before the battle, then the enemy will surely win. And on the downside I was always ..... ...... lol
        1. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 07: 31 New
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          Quote: mivmim
          If you’re catching up on yourself before the battle, then the enemy will surely win. And on the downside I was always ..... ...... lol

          Well, I didn’t set cons, they tried without me.
          You don’t need to scare yourself before the battle, but it also makes no sense to run crazy into the attack - they are slapped.
    2. Bayonet 11 October 2015 09: 17 New
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      Quote: mivmim
      Article minus. The author is trying to make us admire the enemy

      The author is trying to make you think and soberly look at some things! Unfortunately, not everyone can understand this ...
      1. kotvov 11 October 2015 12: 37 New
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        ! Unfortunately, not everyone can understand this ... ,,
        Of course, only you understood. And the rest of the craps. I watched somehow the program, there the former fascist or Nazi said that only one tiger was lost on the Kursk Bulge, and where it remained silent, so this Hartam was created for propaganda .one destroyed the WHOLE AIR ARMY. who were interested (interested) know that the enemy was strong. Which means that our grandfathers WERE STRONGER AND MORE ABLE than Hitler Germany.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    3. Bayonet 11 October 2015 13: 57 New
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      Quote: mivmim
      . The author is trying to make us admire the enemy and belittle our capabilities, shove patriotism out of the way, sit under the pin ... dos and don’t wow ...
      1. dali 12 October 2015 00: 40 New
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        Yes, you are Russophobe, my friend, what did you want to say with this picture ...? am

        Duck they don’t judge people by themselves, especially with the last phrase of this trashy picture ...

        Generally you do not understand the difference respect the enemy and not be afraid of him from admire the enemy and fear him
        1. Bayonet 12 October 2015 06: 57 New
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          Quote: Dali
          Yes, you are Russophobe, my friend, what did you want to say with this picture ...?

          I am not Russophobe and not a "liberalist" smile , and the picture is about the attitude of some people to others! Read the comments carefully and maybe you will understand everything. The last phrases belong to Dovlatov and I think he is right.
        2. atalef 12 October 2015 07: 10 New
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          Quote: Dali
          In general, you do not understand the difference between respecting the enemy and not being afraid of him from admiring the enemy and fearing him

          No . Alexander meant
          -If you do not respect anyone - do not expect that they will respect you.
        3. atalef 12 October 2015 07: 10 New
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          Quote: Dali
          In general, you do not understand the difference between respecting the enemy and not being afraid of him from admiring the enemy and fearing him

          No . Alexander meant
          -If you do not respect anyone - do not expect that they will respect you.
          1. Bayonet 12 October 2015 12: 08 New
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            Quote: atalef
            -If you do not respect anyone - do not expect that they will respect you.

            Hi Sasha! Thank you, that is exactly what I wanted to say! hi
          2. Scraptor 12 October 2015 12: 14 New
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            Do you respect anyone? bully wassat
  4. kebeskin 11 October 2015 05: 42 New
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    The author was a little mistaken, the article is not entirely true. But the thought that he wanted to say was correct. Each country has its own heroes. Those who know how to fight better than others. We have it Suvorov, Ushakov, Kutukhov, Zhukov, Brusilov, etc. and also (and ordinary soldiers) the list goes on and on.
    It should be noted that in the entire history of the Russian wars, no one has yet been able to defeat our mentality, even if we lose at the beginning, then we get together and give out to all the lyuli. This is certainly good, but it is also impossible to underestimate the enemy. In 1905 they hoped for a fairly simple war, and shamefully lost it.
    1. venaya 11 October 2015 06: 06 New
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      Quote: kebeskin
      ... in the entire history of the Russian wars, no one has yet been able to defeat our mentality, even if we lose at the beginning, then we gather and give out to all the lyuli. This is certainly good, but it is also impossible to underestimate the enemy. In 1905 they hoped for a fairly simple war, and shamefully lost it.

      I apologize, but in one I do not agree with you: "In 1905 they hoped for a fairly simple war, and shamefully lost it."- from my point of view, this is not entirely true. I believe that the results of that war were falsified. The reason for my attitude to this is that I do not want to cast a shadow on the army. My strong opinion is that that war was largely lost in the diplomatic field I’ll explain from the side of Russia in the diplomatic games, at the talks in San Francisco, Count Witte spoke, whose wife was just the daughter of a banker with Woll Street, and therefore he was forced to not really care about Russia's needs, in view of his personal The emperor didn’t immediately find the substitution, but afterwards he quickly realized and drove the count from all posts, so you shouldn’t blame the army for all sins, there are other unpleasant aspects.
      1. BMW
        BMW 11 October 2015 13: 32 New
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        Quote: venaya
        from my point of view, this is not entirely true. I believe that the results of that war were falsified.

        Well yes! And Kuropatkin, Stessel, Vitgeft and Rozhdestvensky fought not sparing their belly. And the people nicknamed Kuropatkin - “no matter what happens” just from the lead to his military merits. Our ungrateful people however. fool
    2. Bayonet 11 October 2015 08: 21 New
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      Quote: kebeskin
      In 1905 they hoped for a fairly simple war, and shamefully lost it.

      It was a deal. And in the newspapers they printed caricatures, threatened to destroy some “Japs” there, sent powerful squadrons, and it’s known how it ended. Typical hatred and logical result.
      1. Bayonet 12 October 2015 07: 01 New
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        Quote: Bayonet
        And in the newspapers, caricatures were printed, they were threatening to smash some Japs there

        Please see -
  5. Strashila 11 October 2015 05: 45 New
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    This is the award sheet of my father’s colleague at work ... there are two features ...
    the first that even 5 shells hit is not even the destruction of PO-2 and the second that every destroyed target is confirmed.
    From the site "feat of the people."
  6. Retvizan 8 11 October 2015 05: 50 New
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    For myself, I see the point of the article that you should not underestimate the enemy! Not then, not now. And our great losses say that our grandfathers fought with a strong and treacherous enemy!
    Guys who are interested in history, remember how many people treated the Japanese on the eve of the Russo-Japanese War of 1905? (So-so-macaki!) ...
    And now we have serious enemies, we won’t succeed in throwing hats!
    1. saksan 11 October 2015 07: 27 New
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      Quote: Retvizan 8

      And now we have serious enemies, we won’t succeed in throwing hats!


      But the demonstration of the power of the Russian Federation in Syria caused a shock among the Amers, and the pride in the military-industrial complex and the army among the Russians. soldier
  7. Strashila 11 October 2015 06: 19 New
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    There is another article on the site "352 shot down as a path to defeat" ...
    The need to intelligently cover the details of the battle at Gefechtsbericht and Abschussmeldung did not fundamentally solve the problem. A typical example is an episode from the book of R. Toliver and T. Constable about Hartmann:
    “The rest of the squadron pilots dragged the happy Blonde Knight to the dining room. The party was in full swing when Bimmel broke in (Hartmann's technician. - AI). The expression on his face instantly extinguished the jubilation of the crowd.
    - What happened, Bimmel? - asked Erich.
    - Gunsmith, Herr Lieutenant.
    - Something is wrong?
    - No, everything is okay. You just made all the 120 shots on the 3 downed aircraft. I think you need to know this.
    A whisper of admiration ran through the pilots, and the schnapps again flowed like a river. ” [85– C.126]
    Admiration for admiration, but the adversary of Hartmann in that battle was the Il-2 attack aircraft, rather strong aircraft. The objective of the “ammunition consumption” and “firing range” points in Abschussmedlung was to establish the probability of destruction of the enemy aircraft. A total of 120 shots at three shot down should have been alarming. No one has canceled the rules of aerial shooting and low probability of hitting from a mobile platform. However, such mundane considerations could not spoil the holiday for people and prevent the schnapps from flowing. "
    1. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 06: 49 New
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      Quote: Strashila
      There is another article on the site "352 shot down as a path to defeat" ...
      - No one has canceled the rules of aerial shooting and low probability of hitting from a mobile platform. However, such mundane considerations could not spoil the holiday for people and prevent the schnapps from flowing. "

      Well, it’s quite difficult to expose the Germans in boasting. The enemy was real, and seems not to be engaged in postscripts. It’s not the Yankees who, if they shot down an enemy’s plane in a couple, they wrote to each half, however, what part of whom, the story is silent about this. In the Luftwaffe, clear work was being done to count the sales of aircraft. Well, they are pedantic people, even love them, even hate, but pedantic.
      1. Strashila 11 October 2015 07: 35 New
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        I do not convict them ... they expose themselves in memoirs.
      2. kartalovkolya 11 October 2015 07: 44 New
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        I’ve already read something like this somewhere, but the author would be better off looking into the “research” of Western experts on this issue! And how we kept records of the “shot down” in the Luftwaffe, we are a little informed! Remember how it was repeatedly said about accounting not for the number of aircraft, but about the number of engines: single-engine-1, twin-engine-2, etc. , and also excerpts from the recollections of the Luftwaffe pilots about postscripts and outright deceit! If we couldn’t even talk about any shot downs without confirmation or photo registration, then the German “knights of the sky” were lying in the order of things! And remember how many shot down our famous asss just “gave away” to their friends and followers, but apart from the awards, this money was not small! Well, if they were all so cool, why did our pilots win and not only , but in principle, the Red Army drove an "aspen stake" into their grave! The funny thing is that the more time passes from the WAR, the more heroes are discovered!
        1. AUL
          AUL 11 October 2015 09: 56 New
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          352/2 = 176!
          Beautiful too! And there were practically no 4-engine bombers on the eastern front (well, with the exception of a certain number of Amer shuttles. Like Hartmann, they were not listed). But, nevertheless, his main victories are over fighters. So to deny that Hartmann is a talented pilot and a real ace is unwise. Of course, from an ideological point of view, he is a gangster and a war criminal, and he knowingly got his top ten camps (not enough, in my opinion), but this does not cancel the above. Even if you throw off his result% by 30 (adjusted for propaganda), the result is impressive. So not only we had outstanding warriors. And then the statements of some marshals of the site suggest that only in Russia (the USSR) could there be heroes, and the rest of the nation sucks. A kind of God's chosen people - does this remind you of anything?
          Regarding hatred - oh, many website visitors are sinful by this! "Yes, we’ll tear all to one left, without getting up from a stool (sofa)!" Despite the fact that most of these AK screamers were not held in their hands, they only saw them in cinema action movies!
          Put cons, kids!
          1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 12: 52 New
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            Quote: AUL
            Put cons, kids!

            What to put? After all, he wrote everything correctly! Well, separate .... In general, there are minusrators wink
      3. Alf
        Alf 11 October 2015 08: 59 New
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        Quote: Kos_kalinki9
        Well, it’s quite difficult to expose the Germans in boasting. The enemy was real, and seems not to be engaged in postscripts.

        Not involved? In April of the 44th, the Hartmann announced 4 (FOUR) victories, Yak-9, 2 IL-2 and Cobra. In the magazine of the warhead for that day, only ONE YAK-9 is listed behind the hartmann. That's all.
        Also about postscripts. In North Africa, the Germans, one of the four fighters engaged in the fact that flying out on a free hunt, the entire BC planted in a dune, accompanied by victorious cries. It ended up being learned about it in part, the four were disbanded, the pilots scattered in parts, and the fake victories STOPPED.
        I advise Mr. Yuriev to read Yuri Mukhin's book Asy and Propaganda instead of propaganda tales from the Cold War. There he understands very well how the hartmann actually escaped from captivity and how he counted his victories and how, on a single-seat ME-109, TWO mechanics (probably in parts) were pulled out from under the upcoming “bloody commies” on a single-seat airplane.
        1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 09: 41 New
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          Quote: Alf
          I advise Mr. Yuriev to read Yuri Mukhin's book Asy and Propaganda instead of propaganda tales from the Cold War.

          Are you still reading Mukhin ??? From the war in Africa to the lunar program, the United States is a great whistleblower! laughing
          In the spring of 1944, the German army fought heavy battles in the Crimea. And when on May 8, Hartman left the Crimea with his unit, he took out two mechanics in the fuselage of his Bf-109. Ours were also taken out, and brought down pilots so home. Not in the cockpit of a single-seat fighter, dear Alf, but in the fuselage!
          1. kartalovkolya 11 October 2015 17: 07 New
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            Yes, it’s not about who and whom took out what, but the question is who won this terrible war, and after all they were at the walls of Moscow and what, and the end was one-crash in Berlin. Our people spared nothing for Victory, even their lives! And the words of one great Greek will be very appropriate: "We would perish if we did not perish!" But after all, what did these "vaunted heroes" not have enough to defend their Berlin? They might have been good pilots, but at the same time “intoxicated with blood” athletes, but by no means able to give everything for the Motherland ...! In general, there’s enough talk on this subject, it’s specially raised to distract us from more important topics!
            1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 19: 30 New
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              Quote: kartalovkolya
              yes it’s not about who and whom took out what, but the question is who won this terrible war,

              So it is known since 1945 !!!
              Quote: kartalovkolya
              ! And in general, there’s enough talk on this subject, it’s supposed to be specially raised to distract us from more important topics!

              Hopefully not distracted? hi
              1. Bayonet 12 October 2015 06: 23 New
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                Quote: Bayonet
                So it is known since 1945 !!!

                Damn! Someone doubts this!
          2. Alf
            Alf 11 October 2015 20: 56 New
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            Quote: Bayonet
            Not in the cockpit of a single-seat fighter, dear Alf, but in the fuselage!

            And WHERE was he able to cram TWO? One is possible, but TWO? Indicate this place in the fighter.
            1. Bayonet 12 October 2015 06: 44 New
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              Quote: Alf
              And WHERE was he able to cram TWO? One is possible, but TWO? Indicate this place in the fighter.

              Right here. Want to live - fit!
              1. complete zero 12 October 2015 09: 59 New
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                "Gustav" is a great car, the only weak point is the review of the back hemisphere ... and the rest is a masterpiece (well, or close to that)
      4. Aleksander 11 October 2015 12: 34 New
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        Quote: Kos_kalinki9
        Well, it’s quite difficult to expose the Germans in boasting


        belay
        According to reports by German pilots during the battle for Britain, all British aircraft were destroyed. Five times.....
  8. samarin1969 11 October 2015 07: 14 New
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    “Well, it’s quite difficult to denounce the Germans in boasting. The enemy was real, and it seems he didn’t do any homework.” ... the enemy was uniquely strong ... but also boasting beyond measure. Read Manstein’s Lost Victories ...
  9. solovald 11 October 2015 07: 15 New
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    "... you should rely only on yourself ..." - here under these words I will subscribe. And "hatred" is, unfortunately, our folk fun ... one thing is good, it evaporates quickly, as soon as you have to seriously harness yourself.
  10. free 11 October 2015 07: 17 New
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    they don’t tell about the dangers of cap-making, considering under the magnifying glass of a fascist freak and extolling his merits, the author what is your purpose of the article?
    1. The comment was deleted.
  11. rotmistr60 11 October 2015 07: 43 New
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    Quote: Kos_kalinki9
    Maybe I'm wrong, but the article understood it that way. The enemy is the enemy, and not to underestimate him is stupid

    What the author wanted to say can only be understood from the title of the article "Avoid hatred." And the example with the German aces is not correct only for the reason that I wrote above - a completely different approach to the offset of downed planes. In addition to the confirmation of a pilot from the group, we needed confirmation from the ground forces. If the fall of the enemy’s aircraft was not observed, he did not count. Well, etc.
    1. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 08: 21 New
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      Quote: rotmistr60
      What the author wanted to say can only be understood from the title of the article "Avoid hatred." And the example with the German aces is not correct only for the reason that I wrote above - a completely different approach to the offset of downed planes.

      Good, good, incorrect. And in fact, the author took a bad example. And how do you feel about Stakhanov, M. Vinogradova. .So there were enough postscripts in the USSR, remember the war with the White Finns in 1939 and the Mannerheim line. Also with an attached bayonet and a machine gun? How much can you learn from your mistakes. Now we are hammering ISIS in full and God forbid that we would hammer in a smart way. And then here on the site some already - a single impulse, a mighty blow.
      1. BMW
        BMW 11 October 2015 13: 44 New
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        Quote: Kos_kalinki9
        And then here on the site some already - in a single impulse, a mighty blow

        And do not say, on the very first day, send the troops and throw everything yourself and go to the militia to beat the Igilov reptile in the nest, but why the whole country will come to Syria. lol
  12. vitalikodin 11 October 2015 07: 48 New
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    In my opinion, the Nazi propaganda created for itself the image of the ideal hero! Appreciate the young blond, blue-eyed true Aryan. And the athlete and his bride are young and have no discrediting connections! !!! Although the message of the article is different, you really need to be prepared for any difficulties and not engage in cap-making!
  13. kartalovkolya 11 October 2015 07: 58 New
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    Colleagues. Well, you are like small children, what do you seriously think that the Germans cannot be convicted of lies and boasting? Yes, their whole story (of the entire Third Reich) is sheer lies and boasting, you probably forgot Goebbels' "lame" and his words about what the "monstrous lie" is, the sooner they will believe in it! And so in all that, just don’t touch: oh, what “noble knights of heaven”, and who razed Guernica from the face of the earth, who bombed the hospital and the Red Cross trial ships, who ultimately simply terrorized the civilian population? I am not against “keeping the gunpowder dry,” but you can’t belittle any enemy, but not to the same extent that there is almost admiration for ordinary bandits and barbarians (we did not invite them to us)! And the top ten to this Hartman "soldered" not for his "beautiful form", but apparently it was for that! By the way I had to read And the "Lost victories" of Manstein and Guderianovskie "Akhtung panzern" and that, yes, a complete excuse for their mistakes and errors, and all they somehow then immediately (in the books) Adolf was seen and all the defeats were to blame, and they (the generals) were all “white and fluffy!” The Prussian military junkers have always been historically the most arrogant foe of Russia (although some of them went to work and catch ranks in the meanwhile Russia)! It seems to me that it is necessary to talk less about those who are broken and whose bones are rotting in the fields of Russia, and even more so to make heroes from ordinary looters and killers!
  14. scoop 11 October 2015 08: 01 New
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    Hartman in Germany is Stakhanov in the USSR, a puffed hero. Goebbels needed heroes, and if they shot down more planes than they were produced, that means it is. believe the word to the pilot is very convenient for propaganda.
  15. fa2998 11 October 2015 08: 20 New
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    Quote: saksan
    But the demonstration of the power of the Russian Federation in Syria caused a shock among amers, and pride

    But also not exaggerating! Everyone is certainly happy for the successes of the Russian army, but the Americans, since the 90s, made THOUSAND launches of the Kyrgyz Republic, and carried out THOUSAND sorties of aviation. hi
    1. saksan 11 October 2015 09: 11 New
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      Quote: fa2998
      starting from the 90s, the Americans made THOUSAND launches of the Kyrgyz Republic, and carried out THOUSAND sorties of aviation


      Do not forget what turned out for Russia and the whole of aviation in particular, the betrayal of Gorbachev and Yeltsin's drunkenness; only with the advent of V.V.P. Russia began to spread its wings.
    2. mivmim 11 October 2015 10: 48 New
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      Do not drink the experience!
      laughing
      So pin ... dos do not drink it, they eat it. laughing What experience, where did they beat whom?
      1. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 38 New
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        the experience in aviation (with regard to aviation) is not small; it’s not so loud)))) these are Korea and Vietnam, and much more, among other things, flying hours at schools (we never dreamed of) are excellent Navy pilots (we have hardly a dozen typed?) I do not feel any misconduct before the am ... but consider them more expensive for the Papuans
  16. iury.vorgul 11 October 2015 08: 48 New
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    About Hartman and his "victory" a very good book was written by Yu. Mukhin - "Asses and Propaganda." I advise you to read and make up your mind.
    1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 14: 13 New
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      Quote: iury.vorgul
      Y. Mukhin wrote a very good book

      It's time to learn how to separate flies from cutlets hi
      1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 14: 52 New
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        For this it is necessary that you have cutlets ... Mukhin for the most part is right.
        1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 15: 07 New
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          Quote: Scraptor
          Mukhin is mostly right.

          Well, God bless you, read Mukhin, and I’ll go cutlets ...
          1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 15: 30 New
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            Bon Appetit, and do not forget about acorns ... maybe some with Iron Cross will drop into a plate, maybe even without an "unpleasant smell". lol
            1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 17: 19 New
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              Quote: Scraptor
              Bon appetit, and do not forget about acorns

              Acorns looks like your delicacy laughing Just don’t grunt loudly and don’t put hooves on the table hi
              1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 21: 24 New
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                If only in coffee ... Do not judge people by yourself. laughing
                Diamonds, swords and oak distins bully
                1. Bayonet 12 October 2015 06: 49 New
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                  Quote: Scraptor
                  Do not judge people by yourself

                  So I don’t need to offer acorns, "diamonds" and leaves, love yourself - to your health, but I'm not an amateur. And in general, do not be rude.
                  1. Scraptor 12 October 2015 12: 25 New
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                    Need to understand the flies? bully And in all sorts of different honorable cups from grandfather? wassat laughing
        2. Bayonet 11 October 2015 15: 47 New
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          Quote: Scraptor
          Mukhin is mostly right.

          By the way! On July 29, in Moscow, Yuri Mukhin, Valery Parfyonov and journalist Alexander Sokolov were charged with organizing the extremist community “Army of the People’s People”, which was later renamed the “Responsible Power Initiative referendum group.” According to the investigation, the group was created the participants allegedly "realized that the true goal is to" undermine "the political situation" in the Russian Federation "towards instability, as well as changing the existing government illegally."
          Currently, Parfyonov and Sokolov are in jail, and Mukhin is under house arrest.
          1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 15: 52 New
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            Have you found drugs yet? repeat
            Or "criminal intent to get hold of a Soviet passport 2.0 in the distant future"?
          2. Severomor 11 October 2015 20: 31 New
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            Is it good or bad for you? Or just a factual message.
            By the way, the VO website didn’t even mention it ... unfortunately
          3. The comment was deleted.
  17. Bosk 11 October 2015 09: 03 New
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    Of course, I do not deny that he was a good pilot ... but it’s interesting and is this number of victories documented? If I’m not mistaken, the main proof of Hartmann’s victories is the verdict of the Soviet tribunal (where this figure is written) ..., but with a hint parties remained archives confirming these victories?
  18. artmaster 11 October 2015 09: 22 New
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    Hartman - 1400 sorties: 352 downed planes = 3,97 planes per departure. Absurdity.
    1400 departures: 365 days = 3,8 years without landing.
    Try to walk across the field of sunflowers. Swinging heads are a great guide. Hartman is nothing more than propaganda.
    1. smith7 11 October 2015 10: 11 New
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      Congratulations to you, young man! You are the clearest illustration of the shortcomings of the modern education system! I assure you, by no means am I trying to blame you.
      Quote: artmaster
      Hartman - 1400 sorties: 352 downed planes = 3,97 planes per departure. Absurdity.
      1400 departures: 365 days = 3,8 years without landing.

      In fact, the conclusion from Hartman's "arithmetic" is: 1 downed plane for 3,97 sorties. For a combat pilot of the Second World War 2 ... 3 sorties per day is the norm. In the year, at the front of Hortman, there could be about 200 days, from 300 to 1942 ~ 1945 days (taking into account the error of assumptions). At least 1000 combat days. 600-2 sorties per combat day - this is the result close to 3. So, 1400 battles that were shot down in three years minus non-flying weather, vacations, repairs, relocation, PCBs, etc. a very real thing with the expressed talents of this outstanding pilot. hi
    2. w3554152 11 October 2015 10: 27 New
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      At least one understands that Goebbels’s case is more alive than all living things.
      1. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 10: 57 New
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        UNDERSTANDS UNDERSTANDS, ONLY DOES NOT BE FRIENDLY WITH ARITHMETICS.
    3. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 10: 39 New
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      Quote: artmaster
      Hartman - 1400 sorties: 352 downed planes = 3,97 planes per departure. Absurdity.
      1400 departures: 365 days = 3,8 years without landing.
      Try to walk across the field of sunflowers. Swinging heads are a great guide. Hartman is nothing more than propaganda.

      Take a calculator and divide the amount downed planes for the number of sorties, and not vice versa, as you did ......352: 1400 = ???????
    4. Kos_kalinki9 11 October 2015 12: 25 New
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      For armmaster
      Try to leave the poppy field. The poppies' heads swaying in the wind bring incomparable goodness and peace to the human body. And then you do not need any arithmetic. Propaganda only
      1. Bayonet 11 October 2015 14: 25 New
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        Quote: Kos_kalinki9
        Try to leave the poppy field.

        Or hemp ...
  19. Awaz 11 October 2015 09: 35 New
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    No one says that it was a bad pilot. At one time, when Western books began to reach us, I read the memoirs of a German ace. He also praised himself there as best he could, but it seemed to me that he honestly spoke about Russian pilots. About Hartman and a couple of characters, he touched the topic there. Of course, I don’t remember everything right now, probably because of some internal disagreement of their own, but he says that everyone believed in Hartman’s word and never ever demanded proof from him, which caused dissatisfaction of many pilots. Also, the German admits that at the beginning of the war they did not disdain to write down on their account abandoned aircraft at airfields.
    Interestingly, he talked about why they shot down a little in the British direction. In Germany, the British listened to the radio and followed their press, and when the Germans began to lie very much, the British press besieged them and therefore had no room for lies and postscript that was not controlled by anyone on the eastern front.
    Although it is clear that the Germans had enough aces and there really were enough professionals.
  20. akudr48 11 October 2015 09: 43 New
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    Our school teacher of physical education and basic military training, Zaitsev Vasily Semenovich, was a pilot during the war. Once, when he talked about the war, we asked him how many Germans he had shot down.
    He replied that he had shot down one German plane, for which he was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. And then he himself was shot down and seriously wounded, so that he no longer flew.

    By this time, I had read a lot about the exploits of Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and our other aces, so one shot down plane somehow disappointed me a bit, why not 5 or 10 aircraft, which is not surprising when you are 10-12 years old.

    But childhood passes quickly, and people usually say goodbye to their childhood thoughts and conclusions, only memories remain when the trees were large and the elephant was stronger than the tank ...

    That's what on the same topic, but about tanks, wrote Twardowski.

    - So you went ahead of schedule,
    He looked - in sweat and shiver:
    Rod of German thousand tanks ...
    - A thousand tanks? Well, brother, you're lying.

    “Why should I lie, buddy?”
    Reason - what calculation?
    - But why immediately - a thousand?
    - Good. Let five hundred.

    “Well, five hundred.” Honor me
    Do not scare like old women.
    - Okay. What is there three hundred, two hundred -
    Meet one though b ...


    Let’s remember not childishly that the Germans were the best pilots - fighters during the war and they shot down not only Russians, but also the British in a very considerable number.

    In aerial warfare, the preponderance of one pilot over another is explained by many factors, even beyond the personal flight qualities of the pilot. The Germans taught pilots 2 years each, while ours taught 6 months each at the beginning of the war. It is necessary to take into account the characteristics of the aircraft, its equipment, flight training, the adopted tactics of military operations, support for the pilot in the air and on the ground, etc. The Germans were very strong in this regard.

    However, when in the years 1944–45 the Soviet aviation became a total advantage, the Germans began to crush in the air with terrible force, and skill did not help them. The situation of the beginning of the war turned upside down. Against scrap is not a reception.

    A discussion of why Hartman shot down (or didn’t shot down) 350 aircraft, despite the fact that Kozhedub and Pokryshkin only (only!) Six dozen, it has been conducted in our literature for a long time and deeply, you can read about this in more detail.

    Glory to the Soviet pilots - heroes!

    Glory to the pilots of Russia!
  21. VladimS 11 October 2015 10: 26 New
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    The author decided to chew the old chaff again

    The author decided to once again plunge everyone into the village ... about simultaneously demonstrating what we all are so miserable and miserable ... And all that is not right with us.
    And God forbid ... we rejoice and have pride in our country! Ugh on him!
    1. AUL
      AUL 11 October 2015 11: 58 New
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      Do not be friends with logic, VladimS!
      Where is it in this article you saw the "dipping into shit" of all? The fact that Hartmann was a talented pilot and formidable opponent is a fact, there is no arguing. The fact that the training of German pilots was an order of magnitude better too! ("Armavir School - take-off and landing!" (C). The fact that their planes were more advanced can, of course, be disputed, but our aircraft designers were constantly in the role of catching up.
      And while our flag was over the Reichstag, and not them over the Kremlin! And we did this, not orphaned and not miserable.
      That's something like ...
      1. complete zero 11 October 2015 22: 45 New
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        the planes were really advanced (a messer is a work of art in general) but still they were poked in the face
  22. roskot 11 October 2015 11: 05 New
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    Quote: samarin1969
    “Well, it’s quite difficult to denounce the Germans in boasting. The enemy was real, and it seems he didn’t do any homework.” ... the enemy was uniquely strong ... but also boasting beyond measure. Read Manstein’s Lost Victories ...


    Yes, in “Lost Victories” Manstein did not give instructions to Hitler only. But he advised and insisted. For which Hitler moved him.
    But ears should be kept on top of the head.
  23. Buffalo 11 October 2015 11: 07 New
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    It is one thing to avoid hatred, and quite another is to popularize the enemy. It is known that the West does not seek to popularize the achievements of our compatriots. We should not popularize them.

    About the Maestro who shot down Hartman in the sky of Donbass.

    Monument in life

    How twice a Hero of the Soviet Union in Moscow in a gravity park Vitaly Popkova installed a bronze bust. The ace pilot and the eminent sculptor Lev Kerbel celebrated this event in a very peculiar way: they broke a bottle of champagne on a pedestal, made two cups of cucumber, pulled out glasses, poured cognac on them ... And then a law enforcement officer grew out of the ground: “ You break it, comrades ... ”When he figured out who the“ hooligans ”were, he waved his hand:“ And pour me! ” Vitaly Ivanovich then performed such a trick with a monument more than once, including in company with Leonid Utesov. “As soon as a holiday, my friends say: but let's go to your monument!” Once, on May 9, we drank there, according to tradition, breaking a bottle of champagne on a pedestal. A man approached the monument and laid two carnations at the foot. My friends were indignant: why two ?! There he is! Alive! The man was very surprised, began to apologize. Well, we poured him a pile, and the carnations remained lying. We decided: let it be the one who did not return ...

    Despite his age and recently suffered a serious injury - a complex hip fracture - Vitaly Ivanovich again put himself in operation. You can say he returned from the next world. May 1, he celebrated his 83rd birthday. Next to him is a faithful friend, a loving woman Nina Popkova. At one time, Nina Mikhailovna graduated from the flying club, so that she has the most direct relation to aviation. Now she is a professor, doctor of medical sciences. In addition to bringing Vitaly Ivanovich back to life, she voluntarily bears the duties of his press secretary. To bring the truth to people, to fight speculation and distortion of history - became the meaning of her life. She is not only the hero’s beloved woman, but also his most devoted friend ...
    http://dddkursk.ru/number/552/new/002046/
  24. Nyrobsky 11 October 2015 11: 33 New
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    So who underestimates the enemy, these are those who invaded Russia without invitation, not adequately assessing its potential and the will of the people.
    Each time getting on the ears, the enemy went away lick their wounds and quietly “hate” Russia. Naturally, among the millions of enemy soldiers and officers there were those who were a good warrior, but despite this, he was still beaten and expelled.
    The article has a double meaning - one of which, I think primary, inspire uncertainty and sow doubt in the people in their abilities. To make one think that it might be better to come to an agreement and to give in than to wait for such a “skillful and fearless” aggressor to appear. Appears-rowing again. As they say, our cause is just, we will win.
    1. Das Boot 11 October 2015 13: 26 New
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      Quote: Nyrobsky
      The article has a double meaning

      nonsense. The article, IMHO, is generally meaningless. These banal speculations on the Reich’s propaganda favorites — Hartmann, Wittmann, Rudele — cause nothing but boredom. Everything slips into ordinary fencing with the names - “Bullshit is your Hartman! Here Pokryshkin is yes!”, “Htt, what is this Litzke ??? He couldn’t beat 10 thirty-fours in half an hour! Here’s Kolobanov ...”, “Marinesko - Submariner No. 1, and all these “wolves” were doing homework and stayed in French brothels until our sailors .... "," yes, Rudel had an amputation for fun! Here is Maresyev .... ", etc.
      I think that mature men with a fully formed worldview have gathered here. The argument is pointless. Personal courage, allegiance to the oath and skill were demonstrated on both sides.
  25. fa2998 11 October 2015 11: 42 New
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    Quote: mivmim
    Do not drink the experience!
    laughing
    So pin ... dos do not drink it, they eat it. laughing What experience, where did they beat whom?

    It’s useless to speak with our patriots, they’re right! Here we are talking about the experience in MASS START of WINGED ROCKETS on one or several targets, from different azimuths and distances (and not about the criminal policy of Washington). I think the American officers applying the KR in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and so forth. We have EXPERIENCE, and now they’re not “shocked” by 26 Russian missiles. And by the way, we have not defeated anyone either, although like you, too, I wish Russia to win! hi
  26. NordUral 11 October 2015 11: 58 New
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    Timely article! Remember old victories, respect the enemy, no matter how you hate him, and win again. But without smug bragging. Moreover, the real enemy is yet to come.
  27. artmaster 11 October 2015 13: 05 New
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    I thank everyone who responded to my previous comment - an example of manipulation.
    Propaganda (Latin propaganda literally - “subject to distribution (faith)”, from Latin propago - “distribute”) - in modern political discourse is understood as the dissemination of views, facts, arguments and other information, including rumors or knowingly false information, to form public opinion or other goals pursued by propagandists.
    Regards, Art.
  28. The comment was deleted.
  29. iouris 11 October 2015 15: 04 New
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    Hartman is a story. The main result of the war - the Reich lost the war. To argue about individuals is to divert attention from the overall outcome of the war, to shift attention to secondary things, to rewrite history.
    We must come to terms with the fact that the quality of German pilots was the highest. This only emphasizes the significance of the feat of Soviet pilots.
    1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 15: 13 New
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      You need to - you humble yourself ... and others will better figure out what and how he did, and how many victories he wrote to himself from above.
      1. Das Boot 11 October 2015 19: 57 New
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        Quote: Scraptor
        You need to - you humble yourself ... and others will better understand

        sort it out, genius.
        Quote: Scraptor
        and how many victories from above I recorded for myself.

        100 out of three hundred, say. No, 200. Then what? Come on, wise guy, say that he is an ordinary twenty-year-old pimple manager with 352 likes on Twitter and nothing more. Go ahead, tell us that Luftwaffe practices are nothing compared to the theory of aerial combat ... the back left hemisphere ... Pokryshkin's shallow planning ... Hartman's turn ... Hartman's pause ...
        Theorists and schizopathriots got it.
        The Luftwaffe, as well as the Red Army Air Force, RAF, USAF or 大 日本 帝國 陸軍 航空 隊 - there is nothing to be ashamed of. Never. "Be reverent and rejoice that you are chosen next ..." - I saw in Japan.
        1. Scraptor 11 October 2015 23: 19 New
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          Understood, though not a genius.

          He is an ordinary scoundrel with sharp eyesight, as Mukhin correctly wrote about him. He didn’t climb into the maneuvering battle, he shot back the gaping newcomers. From the western front (gle enemy planes were better) kicked back. By chance meeting in Romania just left a working plane. laughing
          There are those aces who climbed and at the same time in real time caught up with him if they did not surpass.
          Watch less movies ...

          There are infantry snipers who shot much more commanders, risking themselves all the time.
  30. VladimS 11 October 2015 15: 19 New
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    Do not be friends with logic, VladimS!
    Where is it in this article you saw the "dipping into shit" of all?

    Worry about your logic, not mine! There is no reason for that.
    And I was not the only one who noticed, fortunately, that disproves your thoughts.

    It is one thing to avoid hatred, and quite another is to popularize the enemy. It is known that the West does not seek to popularize the achievements of our compatriots. We should not popularize them

    + 1!
    Exactly!
  31. Thor 11 October 2015 15: 59 New
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    No need to look for a "black cat", I personally understand the message of the author of the article: there is no need for "hatred"! No more and no less! And this is relevant, in view of certain achievements of our aircraft! And the fact that hysteria about the propaganda of fascism is spreading below is akin to a ban on poster modelism, which supposedly “glorifies” fascism !!!
  32. VladimS 11 October 2015 16: 14 New
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    Yes, finally understand.
    So many times, Russia (people) have been trying, time after time, to wean their proud Homeland.
    Only a ray flashed ... hopes for a revival of the country ...
    We felt self-respect.
    Immediately, the well-wishers helpfully remind "no, don’t be proud."
    And then it suddenly escalates into hatred. "He warns us," sage "! Do you understand !?
    And I personally think that hatred and dizziness from success arise from / with constant victories .. and the like! And here .. Only a small reason to rejoice: that we can, we know how, we could .. The gleam in the eyes and shoulders stretch. As in my IMHO!
  33. Das Boot 11 October 2015 18: 01 New
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    Quote: VladimS
    Glitter in the eyes and shoulders.

    STRENGTHENED. And Hartman, what side to our shoulders? Bubi was 20 when it started real career in the luftwaffe. Now this is the age for bulls in traffic jams, social service and casting in Dom-2. What the hell do you touch the peasants (deflate, hawks - I'm talking about everyone men, without distinction of armies, countries and front lines)? Ah, b / in, Goebbels propaganda, wow ... Someone, b / \ in, shot down, burned, drowned - otherwise, as a matter of fact, it all ended in Reims and Karlhorst in the 45th, and not , say, Brest in the 39th? Ay-ah ... in Helsinki in the 39th ... Enough already. Courage does not know ideology. It is either there, or .... I am finally amazed - who are we to blame, criticize the same Bubi ... to stink in general about his piloting talent?

    Hans Deybl (piloted the "thing") in Africa in 42nd shot down Cecil Golding on the P-40. In 1942 And these are grandfathers in 2012.
  34. complete zero 11 October 2015 21: 25 New
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    Yes, even if he attributed 100-150 aircraft ... anyway, AS (there is nothing to say) ... but comparing the pilot only by the number of personal victories is not right ... Kozhedub and Pokryshkin had fewer sorties .. respectively and fewer air battles (that's all)))) comparing the effectiveness of fighter aircraft (Luftwaffe and the Red Army) it is necessary to proceed from the general task ... but it was different (ours had support for attack aircraft and then everything else))) and try to lose you IL even a couple of “bent” chances will not save from the tribunal (there were such cases), and to shoot a messer falling from 4000 m at a speed close to the flutter (700-800 km / h) the task is insoluble by no means)) ) according to this, the task was set not to BEAT but to BEAT off the attack, which was carried out
  35. Buffalo 11 October 2015 23: 06 New
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    Once, at a aviation show in Bonn, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, pilot ace Vitaliy Popkov asked German colleague Willy Bartz if he had fought near Kharkov and was he not familiar with such a place as the Dynamo state farm? "What you want from me? Why do you ask?!" - Bartz became nervous and unexpectedly left the podium. The people around were interested in a strange reaction, and Popkov answered mysteriously: "I met a godson, but he did not recognize his relationship."
    Vital Popkov had 14 such “godchildren” from the squadron commander, in which 11 out of 47 pilots became Heroes of the Soviet Union, according to the number of personally shot down planes. 13 fascist cars were destroyed in the group. Today, an honorary citizen of Moscow and 12 cities of Russia and the world - even in the Pentagon his name is carved on a special plate among the names of the 23 best pilots of the Second World War - honored military pilot of the USSR, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Colonel General VVS VOPALI POPKOV - guest of “LG” .
    http://avvakul.ru/?id=9&p=1&pid=2
  36. Buffalo 11 October 2015 23: 08 New
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    LESGIN BEFORE THE METROPOL

    - What episodes did you remember from the battle of Moscow?
    - The first flight in February 42nd. We were raised on alarm, I was a follower of the regiment commander Zaitsev. I remember a German plane that dropped nine heavy bombs - it passed from Arbat Square by Gorky Street, along the squares of the Boulevard Ring. The first bomb got to where the House of the Journalist is now, and at that time there was a Komsomol district committee - flame, smoke ... the rest fell on this square. Near the monument to Timiryazev, about fifteen meters away, stood a female anti-aircraft battery - a direct hit. Then in the newspaper we saw photographs of these girls - they smiled ... The monument to Timiryazev was thrown off the pedestal, his head and arm flew off ...
    Solid smoke creeped downstairs, blowing it to the Kislovsky lanes - Bolshoy, Sredny, Nizhny. And it became so bad for me, I thought: probably the bomb got into my house. It was a shame that we arrived at the place of bombing late, the radio didn’t work on planes then, we were given the direction of flight to
    airfield ... The regiment commander, seeing my dead view, - and he was a soldier shot - was walking towards Moscow from the border, - said: “Don’t worry, Vitaly. You and I will still pass at the Victory Parade. " His words were prophetic to me.
    - How did you know that you received the “Golden Star”?
    - In early August the 43rd, I was sent to Moscow with ten pilots for new cars. And so we walk around Sverdlov Square, we are all interested in a peaceful city, for three days we were not at the front. And at the Metropol Hotel we see a barred shield with the Izvestia newspaper. We approach, read, and there the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR on the assignment by eight of us of the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. We immediately danced in front of the shield, performed either gypsy or lezginka. People who read the newspaper probably thought that some frustration at the front-line pilots happened. And then I said: “You see the name Popkov - this is me, and this is Ivan Pavlovich Laveykin, and this is Shardakov,” and he listed all eight.
    The reaction of people was even more amazing - they broke into the frame of the shield, pulled out a newspaper and handed me: "She is yours, second lieutenant, do not give it to anyone." And Mikhail Ivanovich Kalinin, handing me the Star of the Hero, said: "Comrade Lieutenant, if you want me to hand you the second star, hurry up, I'm an old man, I can not survive." And these words - about the second Star - also turned out to be prophetic.
    http://avvakul.ru/?id=9&p=1&pid=2
  37. Buffalo 11 October 2015 23: 41 New
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    Anyone who loves the movie "Only Old Men Go Into Battle!", I recommend this wonderful article. You will find out who was the prototype aircraft Makarych.
    Who blessed the Maestro in Buturlinovka? That the first plane they shot down was not Messer, but Dornier. As L. Bykov, in 1944, near Kramatorsk, he spoke to the Maestro in a concert about the friendship of Popkov and Utesov. You will not regret.
    I RECOMMEND!
    http://yagazeta.com/comment.php?comment.news.7688.extend
  38. 2ez
    2ez 12 October 2015 00: 08 New
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    Vitaly Popkova was remembered here. Read HIS memoirs, and you will immediately understand that the Germans still had those records ... It was not in vain that Goebbels checked the victories of his krigmarine ... according to British radio reports ... http: //www.leonid-bykov.ru/staty/36 .htmhttp: //www.mk.ru/editions/da
    ily / article / 2004/06/22/110460-pozyivnoy-maestro.html
  39. Hammer 12 October 2015 12: 11 New
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    This is apparently not "shit" fool
    1. Scraptor 12 October 2015 12: 16 New
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      And it looks like both caps are slightly wrinkled ...
  40. kartalovkolya 13 October 2015 10: 10 New
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    Dear colleagues, I want to remind you something: please tell me about which of the heroes of the war of 1812 you remember (except our well-known Denis Davydov, the elder Vasilis Kozhin, Seslavin, etc.), but from the opposite side? Or name at least one hero of the Greco-Persian wars, perhaps the first "marathoner" who brought the news of the victory over the Persians (and only historians remember his name)! And so it will be with the heroes and "robbers" of the Great Patriotic War, two hundred years from now, if we allow ourselves to "blur" the memory of our great GRANDFATES!