The myth of "one rifle for three"

There is a steady legend that at the beginning of the war our army fought "with one rifle for three." The exact origin of this myth is now hardly possible to find out, however, there is a version that it is associated with the release of the propaganda video "Chapaev with us." If at the moment no one disputes that, then at the beginning of the war the regular units of the Red Army were fully equipped with rifle rifles. weaponsthen the theme “one rifle for three” is still being discussed around the people's militia.

Here is what the chief curator of the Moscow State Museum of Defense funds, S.E. Sobolev in his article “Small arms of the defenders of the capital in the formation of the national militia of Moscow”, based on archival documents on the degree of manning of all twelve divisions of the Moscow national militia on September 3 1941g - “Provision of rifles, machine guns, light and heavy machine guns, 50-mm mortars , 76-mm divisional guns, 122-mm howitzers in them is 100%. Among the total number of machine guns there are 412 machine guns of the Colt arr. 1915 d. In reality, the logistics situation for the militia divisions looked a little different. According to a report from the 33 Army Headquarters to the Reserve Headquarters (the front about the combat and numerical strength of the army units - six national militia divisions sent no earlier than September 20 1941 34 (text dating). 721 28 rifles instead of the 952 714 machine guns, 612 machine guns 7 796: But there was a lack of the following weapons: automatic rifles there were 21 495, and it was required by the 869 956 staff, light machine guns were 784, instead of the necessary 928, Degtyarev submachine guns, there were 2, instead of 102. st divisions had only 7 anti-aircraft machine gun instead of the 51 and XNUMX XNUMX heavy machine guns instead ».

As can be seen from the above data, there was indeed a shortage of armaments, but it did not concern personal small arms. Moreover, there was even an excess of rifles.
The problem was different - not only modern rifles were issued to the militiamen, but in general everything that could fire was a weapon of the First World, Finnish trophy, foreign weapons, transferred to the Russian Empire in 1914-1917. There was a problem of incompatibility of weapons and ammunition - “With the external similarity of Soviet rifle cartridges arr. 1908 and Finnish, Finnish cartridges were stuck in our machine gun belts and it was not possible to shoot at them. For the same reason, Finnish clips were not suitable for our rifles. Therefore, it was possible to shoot Finnish ammunition only one at a time. ”

Was this situation unique? Here is how Alfred Ressel describes the armament of the people's militia in England in the book “On the Roads of War” - “For the defense of England there were no guns, anti-aircraft artillery, and above all tanks. The light weapons that the army had, with the exception of a light machine gun such as Bren, which was produced under the Czechoslovak license, was outdated, but it was also missing. The militia, consisting of former military and civilians, was armed as necessary with berdanks and pointed iron rods from the fences of the parks. Let's go even historical halberds from museums and family estates as weapons convenient for close combat. ”

Here is what Konstantin Telegin, who was a member of the Military Council of a number of fronts during the war, writes in his book “Wars of Uncounted Versions” - “The Military Council decided to mobilize all weapons resources that could be found in educational institutions, headquarters and rear units .. And the employees of the departments of the Moscow Military District increased their efforts every day in the search for internal reserves. A careful examination of cases on the ground revealed that the reserves are still there, and even considerable ones. The first of these is the artillery bases directly subordinate to the GAU. ” At one of these bases, there was just a significant supply of repaired or requiring repair of foreign small arms that had been in warehouses since the civil war.
According to Telegin, by the end of July, it was possible to adjust the output to
5000 units of repaired weapons per day.

It should be noted that the formed militia units of the “first wave” went not to the front, but to the Mozhaisk line of defense built in the rear, where they were engaged in combat training and construction of fortifications. In September, the national militia divisions were reorganized according to the states of the regular rifle divisions of the Red Army.

As you can see, there were really problems with the armament for the Moscow militia, but in no case does it mean that the militia were thrown into battle unarmed with one rifle for three - all were provided with personal small arms. Perhaps, on other fronts, for example, Leningrad, the situation was worse?
From the data of the book by Alexander Kolesnik “Militia formations of the Russian Federation in the years of the Great Patriotic War” you can make up the following table on the armed forces of the national militia divisions (AED):

Division Number by state Shortage Shortage/reserve of rifles
1 BOTTOM 14926 2824 -799
2 DNO 11739 3018 +317
3 DNO 12154 2060 +1192


As you can see, only one of the three divisions had a shortage of rifles, but it was covered with an even larger shortage of personnel. Surprisingly, exactly the same data is cited in his article “One rifle for three” by Anatoly Tsyganok as proof of the thesis about the great shortage of small arms.

Based on the foregoing, it can be said that there were problems with the armament of the people's militia, but they were not of such a disastrous nature that it was possible to say that the militia were thrown into battle without a weapon "with one rifle for three."

Comments

[KUOLEMA]

With one rifle for three, liberals and resunoids came up with and the training was not bad, but with the command it was stressful in the first stage

[Mikhalychch]

Stalin himself destroyed the commanders, from which there may be good training.

[avt]

Quote: Mikhalychch

Stalin himself destroyed the commanders, from which there may be good training.

Yeah, right in the morning I got up from the bed and thought - "Whom should he shoot today?" And such rehabilitated generals as Rokossovski, Gorbatov and another 30 thousand rehabilitated, reinstated in rank and in the party ran out of cartridges. Or maybe it's about Misha Tukhachevsky? Well, the Congineal commander, who, according to his own recollections, could not establish reconnaissance and lost for three or four weeks the entire Polish army near Warsaw? And to think too lazy - where would the Germans be if Misha had lost them for 1941 weeks in 4? Hike to think and analysiprovat reluctance - it's easier to fart liberoid stench, and you say grumble, "soviet Stalinists", prove something with the numbers.

[Mahmut]

With one rifle for three, liberals and resunoids came up with and the training was not bad, but with the command it was stressful in the first stage

This myth could not have been invented by liberals and rezunoids, since it was born in the 50s, and has not yet disappeared from the heads of our old people. It was invented by corrupt "historians" to justify the shame of the defeat of the Red Army at the beginning of the war.
But one of the first whistleblowers of this myth was Victor Rezun. To the great shame of our court ideologists, but this is true. And henceforth, advice, if you want to effectively expose and destroy your ideological enemy, then take the trouble to find out about him a little more than what is written on his label.

[cuzmin.mihail2013]

Tukhachevsky would not lose time! He would give the order: To contribute as much as possible to the Red Army of the German Army in the fight against communism and the appointment of himself ruler of Russia.

[Shadowcat]

is Blucher and Tukhachevsky? Great commanders. One managed at the sight of the infantry of Japan, the second could not conquer the superior army flattering and put under attack the whole country.
Or are you talking about someone else?

[Talgat]

Liberators are spreading slander against the USSR, allegedly "great commanders" were destroyed for the personal power of the tyrant Stalin and repression 37 with earlier ones are mixed in a heap - deliberately distorting the truth

In fact, the Trotskyists simply need to be repressed - until 1939, Stalin and his comrades-in-arms still did not have full power and had to shoot through the surviving Trotskyists

I am especially (as a Kazakh) glad that Goloshchekin was raised from a hospital bed (he had only a week or months to live due to cancer) and was shot dead! So he and thousands of other executioners

Thanks to the cleansing of "nits", our homeland did not receive a "fifth column" in the Second World War and the betrayal of senior officers

As for me. so no Tukhachevsky is a genius, but the Konevs, the Rokossovsky Zhukovs and others proved in real battles

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: Talgat

I am especially (as a Kazakh) glad that Goloshchekin was taken up from a hospital bed (he had only a week or months to live due to cancer) and was shot dead!

Shaya Itskovich Goloshchekin is a participant in the ritual execution of the Empire in the person of its people symbolizing: the family of Emperor Nicholas II. As you know, such a thing was not entrusted to anyone anyhow.

[Uncle Joe]

Quote: Talgat

the Trotskyists simply need to be repressed - until 1939, t. Stalin and his associates still did not have all power

As a person who regularly refers to Stalin and Lenin, I beg you to clarify - what is meant by the Kremlin's imitation you used about "the absence of all the fullness of power"?

[Talgat]

I'm sorry, I don't know what "Kremlin imitation" is

I suspect that you mean that I sympathize with the Kremlin and the Russian government
So this, you know, is the official position of my entire country, and the leadership of Kazakhstan and most of the population. Watch out!

And in reality, most of our population supports the "Kremlin imitation" - by the nature of my work, I communicate a lot with various segments of the population - I can confirm

Putin's rating in KZ generally goes off scale - by the way, not quite deservedly - and I myself argue with that - my relatives keep repeating the same thing - Putin and his team have returned to the Motherland the loot of oligarchs in 12 industries (well, you know defense export, nuclear power, Yukos oil and so on) but did not return the NAS type - in fact, NAS kept everything under "dictate" and started not in 2004, but earlier in 2000 - that is, we overtook the Russian Federation by 4 years

This can be seen by all indicators and graphs, and therefore the Russians began to return, who, inadvertently, hastened to leave for the Russian Federation. T e there is not much difference between NAS and Putin

[Scraptor]

rather, with caution ...

[Uncle Joe]

I don’t know what "Kremlin imitation" is

Pro-imperious dementia, expressed, among other things, in boiling water writing from flights with Siberian Cranes, from pressing oligarchs to the nail (in fact, reproducing at a rate 2 times the GDP growth rate), and from the fake repeal of the PSA law.

Quote: Talgat

So this, you know, the official position of my whole country

I am not interested in your official position: you called yourself a communist in a brass, so please

I repeat the question: what is "the absence of all the fullness of power"?

[Talgat]

The power in the world now belongs to the Fed and the United States, and we are all in opposition - probably everyone understands this now

That is, "pro-government dementia" is more likely your destiny - the disrespectful liberal and pro-American "Uncle Joe"

Not for you, but for other site visitors - about the lack of full power by Stalin

Yes, indeed, until 1937-38, the IVS still struggled for power, trying to plant the last Trotskyists, etc.

I read that in 1939, the commander Dybenko ran into the mausoleum during the parade, and from a schA personal harm and quarrel, he hit Stalin on the head

Then he calmly served and even took part in the Second World War

[Alf]

Quote: Talgat

I read that in 1939, the commander Dybenko ran into the mausoleum during the parade, and from a schA personal harm and quarrel, he hit Stalin on the head

Schadenko.

[Buffalo]

Right. Tukhachevsky is an executioner and a sadist. He gave the order to bomb from airplanes, to fire from artillery and to poison with chlorine the Tambov peasants, who rebelled against excessive exactions and the threat of starvation.
He shot hostages in villages, placed the population in concentration camps.

[Sweles]

Quote: Bison

Right. Tukhachevsky is an executioner and a sadist. He gave the order to bomb from airplanes, to fire from artillery and to poison with chlorine the Tambov peasants, who rebelled against excessive exactions and the threat of starvation.
He shot hostages in villages, placed the population in concentration camps.

I read somewhere that Tukhachevsky was a nobleman by birth, but it is enough to look at his face once and it becomes clear that he is not a nobleman, but a Jew, from which it becomes clear, such hatred for the Russian people and the betrayal of this "nobleman" .. ...

[tolian]

You are observant. Everything speaks for the fact that he is a typical liquid. And face and amazing ability to survive. Was in captivity. Long. Returned. He quickly climbed up. He distinguished himself for his diligence in executions of the "counter". Well, like Zemlyachka, for example, and many others from their midst, who devoted their souls to revenge and the destruction of the goyim. The current exaltation to the skies of his "genius" and lamenting about his "murder." And ask why he was sentenced to death, gentlemen mestizo-belolentochnye. Indeed, there is a lot of documentary literature. No time to read? Is it easier to scream? But Stalin ran into it. And he saw THEM well!

[tolancop]

Betrayal, IMHO, has no nationality ... Including. "liquid" Tukhachevsky or "hare" .. what does it change?

[allian]

Quote: Bison

Right. Tukhachevsky is an executioner and a sadist. He gave the order to bomb from airplanes, to fire from artillery and to poison with chlorine the Tambov peasants, who rebelled against excessive exactions and the threat of starvation.
He shot hostages in villages, placed the population in concentration camps.

And did not consult with anyone? Didn’t execute any orders? Was Makhno second?
Or did he obey the orders of his higher comrades?

[avt]

Quote: allian

? Didn’t execute any orders?

Fulfilled, completely fulfilled the orders of the one who appointed him and who created the whole Red Army and supervised Trotsky.

[allian]

Quote: avt

he himself carried out the orders of the one who appointed him and who created and supervised the entire Red Army — Trotsky.

So what? Has appointed Trotsky Tukhachevsky? Or Lenin?

[allian]

Quote: Bison

Right. Tukhachevsky is an executioner and a sadist. He gave the order to bomb from airplanes, to fire from artillery and to poison with chlorine the Tambov peasants, who rebelled against excessive exactions and the threat of starvation.
He shot hostages in villages, placed the population in concentration camps.

And did not consult with anyone? Didn’t execute any orders? Was Makhno second?
Did he produce ammunition with a chemical agent in army workshops?
Or did he obey the orders of his higher comrades?

[MrK]

Agrees bison. I will add.
"One cannot but agree that the people who destroyed millions of Russian people, such as all of these Tukhachevskys, Uborevichs, Yakirs, Bukharins, in any case deserved the death penalty. Justice demanded this. It doesn’t even matter what they were accused of - all the same, they could not officially be judged for their true crimes against the Russian people. So from a moral point of view, this stage of repression was completely justified - as the restoration of justice and the “Soviet Thermidor".
Quote from the book, which is now not in my ears: [A. Kurlyandchik - “Cursed SOVIET AUTHORITY” ... on Proza.ru]

[Uncle Joe]

Quote: mrark

Quote from the book ...

One cannot but agree that the people who destroyed millions of Russian people, such as all of these Tukhachevskys, Uborevichs, Yakirs, Bukharins, in any case deserved capital punishment

And the "destroyed" "millions" of Russian people were a stupid, wordless herd that did not offer resistance?

It seems to me that my first impression was correct, and that your Kurlyandchik is on a par with Bronstein, whose only "merit" lies not in the fake destruction of millions, but in the discrediting of the Soviets (including rumors of such destruction).

[Scraptor]

... disarmed ...

you are busy here with discrediting this destruction.

better about Vendée, that it was necessary, or that it was also a rumor.

[Uncle Joe]

Quote: Bison

and poison the Tambov peasants with chlorine

50 thousand men running through the woods with weapons, now called peasants?

[Scraptor]

OWL was used in villages and not in forests. Not the same opportunities as American aviation in Vietnam.
Well, who were they - workers? Or maybe raznoshintsy?
a peasant with a weapon does not cease to be a peasant, if only a hunter.

[Scraptor]

Tell us more about yourself ... although according to your writings everyone already sees that vi (for) is not a person.

[Pissarro]

Organized in three armies, not just running

[Resident007]

ShadowCat, all the same it could be so ... But then why did the Red Army retreat in your way to Moscow and the Volga if everything was adjusted with the command staff and weapons?

[Shadowcat]

Why did France merge in a month? Why did England merge? But this is lyrics.

Blitzkrieg’s tactics even in our country paid off at the first stages of the war. What was it like? In delivering a concentrated blow and breaking through the enemy’s defense, and without further entering into battle, advance to the rear capturing / destroying warehouses, command, communications. The same was put before the aircraft, which attacked communication centers and command.
But a small nuance is the territory. Accustomed to maneuvering on a not very large European territory (take the Moscow region from us - it’s with Germany. I exaggerate but the meaning is clear), they transferred such tactics to the USSR.
The second nuance is the concentration of troops. Of course, most of the troops focus on particularly important borders, but here's the problem. The USSR and even Russia have the largest land border in the world. And it was necessary to protect not only the Soviet-German one. But also Soviet-Turkish / Japanese (And do not care that Sorge and others telegraphed. There was peace with Germany) / Finnish / Asian.
But if you look, the army was 7 million with the German (+ satellites) versus 5-6 million with the Soviet.
The third nuance is geopolitics. Okay, Churchill (but everyone is mortal. And he, too, and Chamberlain will be resurrected), but there is a large US economy that seems to be out of business. Given the ardent love for the Communists in the United States (they kicked off the love of private property), then the likelihood that they will jump to the Axis side give an excuse. A cute reason and fluffy Germany was attacked by the evil USSR. So what had to be done so that it was simply impossible to state (analogy with Ukraine in modern realities).

As you see, in addition to operational and tactical victories, there are also strategic and geostrategic ones. Germany won the first two points at the start of the war, the third partially (3/4 I will say), the last merged into the net.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: ShadowCat

then the army was 7 million with the German (+ satellites) versus 5-6 million with the Soviet.

Exaggerate.
At the beginning of the war:
The Germans-taking into account the strategic reserve, the group for operations in the East consisted of 183 divisions and 13 brigades. (Including 19 tank and 14 motorized)
USSR-in all, there were 303 divisions in the Ground Forces, of which 237 divisions were in the composition of the group for operations in the West (51 of them were tank and 25 were motorized)
In addition, the USSR had a significant advantage in aircraft and tanks.
And the human reserve was even greater, meaning the male military-liable population

[Setrac]

German divisions were more full-fledged and their 183 divisions had more bayonets than our 303 divisions, in addition, add more than a million soldiers of Germany's allies and satellites.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Setrac

In addition, add more than a million soldiers to Germany’s allies and satellites.

Yes, let's add:
On August 10, the State Defense Committee issued a decree on the mobilization of military servicemen born in 1890–1904 and conscripts born in 1922–1923 in the Kirovograd, Mykolayiv, Dnipropetrovsk regions and regions west of Lyudinovo - Bryansk - Sevsk, Oryol region [53]. On August 15, this mobilization was extended to the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic [54], August 20 to the Zaporizhzhya region [55], September 8 to a number of districts of the Oryol and Kursk regions [56], and October 16 to Moscow and the Moscow region [57]. In total, by the end of 1941, over 14 million people had been mobilized [49].

[Setrac]

of these 14 million, most were mobilized into industry, as well as in Germany

[Alex]

Quote: Pilat2009

In total, by the end of the 1941 year, over 14 million people [49] were mobilized.

And on 22 on June 1941 of the year? You know, don’t juggle with numbers here ...

[captain]

I would like to add to the author's article about the lack of weapons. The Germans started the war having, according to various sources (in different issues of the "History of the Great Patriotic War") from 2800 to 4300 tanks. ACS and assault guns. According to various sources (I do not take data since 1991) from "a large number of obsolete tanks ... and 1881 T-34 and KV-1 tanks", to the number of mechanized corps with the average manning is 50-55% (there were 1031 tanks in the mechanized corps by staff), there were 31 before the war, that is, an average of about 16500 tanks. There were also tanks in rifle, separate motorized rifle, cavalry and division. tank divisions. This I do not take modern literature, only according to Soviet publications. If we discard pseudo-patriotism, then it becomes obvious that we were not ready for war. I recommend looking at and comparing the biographies of our and the German commanders of the operational groups. For example; The commander of the South-Western Front in 1941 was Colonel General Kirponos, who in 1940 was the commander of a division, so he had no experience in commanding large formations. Our military historians must admit that war is not only about the number of soldiers. tanks. aircraft, etc., this is also the training of command personnel of all levels. Starting with the squad leader, this is also the logistics and ... many other factors. If anyone remembers the first Chechen company, then we were in the army at the time, as in 41 at the beginning of the war. I understand that not the whole truth was written to please the party leaders and our marshals, but now it is worth writing the whole truth. Compare for the sake of interest, the number of our soldiers taken prisoner and the German. who were in our captivity.

[Cap.Morgan]

How is it?
In terms of the total number of weapons, we exceeded them at times.
Each country decides to have a division, corps or brigade itself. It does not matter. It is important how many trunks per kilometer of the front.

[Setrac]

This is a lie, the USSR was inferior in almost everything except obsolete tanks with bulletproof armor.

[Forest]

In Germany, the troops were concentrated in the 30-50 km zone from the offensive start line, while our rear units in other corps on 22 in June still hung in Transbaikalia and Kazakhstan.

[captain]

We were very lucky that not all the troops were at the border, or even Moscow would not have been able to defend. I recommend looking through the "History of the Great Patriotic War 1941-45" of the last Soviet edition. There are many interesting facts. Especially spring 42, events near Kharkov and in the Crimea. Shapkozakidatelstvo always ended badly for us. Take an interest, without whose signature, except for the commander and NSh, the order was considered invalid (do not think that without the signature of the special officer, you may understand about the "guiding and cementing" role of our party.

[cuzmin.mihail2013]

You may not know, but the German divisions had wartime staff, the Red Aria was accordingly peaceful. Citing the number of divisions, the authors of some essays do not know that the staff of the Red Army divisions of peacetime is 10291 people, wartime - 14483 people. In addition, quite a few were cropped divisions, numbering less than 6000 people. Wehrmacht division - 16859 people. Count! By the way, they forget about the number of units when calculating losses in the first months of the Second World War.

[Shadowcat]

Good. According to the state of wartime (i.e. full and complete deployment)
Considering that the Wehrmacht's infantry division consisted of 16 589 people, we have 3 million 35 thousand 787 people.
USSR Rifle Division 14 we get 483 million 3 thousand 432 people.

And here everything seems to be visible, but there is one BUT. Very insignificant in appearance. BUT very much having all the statistics.
That damn wartime staff. Unfortunately, I haven’t found it yet, but having some knowledge in the economy and having experience in supplying a travel group, I want to note that it’s very difficult to feed such a crowd and supply it with everything, both materially and economically (for example, I eat about 300 rubles a day (without all chic)). Having no reason, what is the point of the state to keep such a large number of parasites? (soldiers in peacetime do not produce anything) and spend money on them? Therefore, it is logical that it is better not to deploy military units in peacetime, in other words, to reduce staff by 60% or more.

Now, please be kind to calculate the TOTAL for the first days of the war as much as was necessary. And yes, I think, as an adult and smart person, you understand that after signing on the decree on mobilizing people in equipment they don’t immediately appear in the unit.
P.S. If you have information about the composition of undeveloped parts, I will be glad to read them.

P.P.S. A small offtopic. Exterminate all who blame our commanders such as avid cavalrymen. The state in the Wehrmacht Infantry Division was 5 thousand horses, versus 3 thousand in the Red Army. These are our horsemen.

[Shadowcat]

But what I found. According to the state of peacetime, the composition of the infantry division of the USSR was 6 thousand people (!). Afigenchik conquering army to conquer Europe. Such and such are not willing to publish in some places.
Of course, this is at the end of the 39th, but I do not think that everything has changed dramatically, but on average there were 10 players in the area.

In order not to be unfounded
http://fablewar.ru/2011/09/division/

[Alex]

Quote: Pilat2009

The Germans — Based on the strategic reserve, the grouping for operations in the East consisted of 183 divisions and 13 brigades. (Including 19 tank and 14 motorized) of the USSR — in all, the Ground Forces had 303 divisions, of which 237 was a group for operations in the West divisions (of which 51 tank and 25 motorized)

Perfectly! Now, please, in millions of people on both sides. And do not forget the allies.

[Resident007]

And for what minus gentlemen-comrades, what is the opposite in my question? That's all true, and citizen ShadowCat expressed his opinion. It's not about geopolitics and strategies, you tell YOUR OPINION about the "boilers", mass surrender and inept commanding officers (not all, of course), then I know that there were cases of successful counterattacks, and heroic defenses in all sectors, but not so massively and successfully .. And the fact that some officers did not send in a senseless attack on a high-rise, wanting to save the lives of soldiers ... You just need to admit that in the initial period of the war the Germans were much more mobile, better trained, hardened in battles in Europe, the Army and the Air Force (about the Navy - there ours not only held back, but also gave good ones ..) than the Red Army (I repeat - without begging many feats of our soldiers and officers). Yes, we didn’t skimp, but retreated .. But the numbers of casualties and prisoners speak for themselves .. The command staff AT ALL at all levels found themselves in panic, hectic, prompt, timely orders were not issued or were made late. At the initial stage, the blitzkrieg justified itself by 200% .. Plus there were many saboteurs in the Western territories, and the population was half anti-Soviet ... All this was not taken into account, although they could .. And there is no need to look for the guilty here .. it depends on the person - what he adheres to the ideology, the version, and everyone will have their own truth ..

[Shadowcat]

Quote: Resident007

But the numbers of losses and prisoners speak for themselves.

It's hard to argue with you, but here's an interesting nuance about the losses that modern researchers have deduced.
A bit abstractly admissible there is a front. Where the fighter is injured. He is being taken to a field hospital. There I will operate it and after, depending on the severity of the wound, they will be sent either deep to the rear or the front-line hospital. After which the fighter (according to the instructions) had to go to the distribution point. But often the fighters went straight to their units because there is already a familiar team, from the point they can send anywhere.
So we look at the reporting. From the front, the foreman writes that "Ivanov dropped out due to injury. Sent to the hospital." In the hospital they again write that Ivanov has been transported there and there. And after that, from the rear they again write the same paper.
Considering that all this bureaucracy was often lost, mixed up, and because of those fleeing from the infirmary, we get complete anarchy.
(I write very approximately because I watched a program with a historian for a long time. I’m not sure, but it seems that in Puchkov’s case in the Intelligence Question they touched on this)
There are unscrupulous researchers who wrote the losses like this - "Aha. The front suffered losses of 100 people. We are writing it down. So 200 people left the hospital. We write it down. 50 people left the rear. We write it down. Total losses are 450 people." But for some reason, they did not take into account that the losses may not be lethal, and from the hospital they are sent not only to the cemetery.
The same thing with the replenishment of such historians and the missing did.
This is from our side.
With the German uncle Goebels so lit that after a heavy battle, the division could grow twice.
So it’s a little skeptical about some of the numbers. History as a politics is a dirty thing and looks through the lens as desired.

[Shadowcat]

By the way, about the losses. The most common cartridge during World War II was 7.62, or approximately the same caliber (I mean the ratio with the main users - German / Japanese / American), which has excellent breakdown power.
Since Vietnam, 5.56 and 5.45 have appeared ()! had a smaller penetration, but at the same time had a greater offset relative to the line of hit on the target.
those. the point is that two different calibers do different damage to human tissues. If one simply flies out and maybe the enemy doesn’t even notice, then the second one will writhe not just from the pain shock (as is possible in the first case), but also because the outlet is bleeding very much and (or) is damaged which requires immediate medical intervention.
This is so offtopic. No, I really need to start a blog. But who cares about the thoughts of the abnormal?

[Alf]

Quote: ShadowCat

those. the point is that two different calibers do different damage to human tissues.

That’s why the phrase “Large-caliber” makes minced meat on the outside, and small in the package.

[gladcu2]

Resident007

Guilty still need to be determined. Including the reasons for what happened. That would not step on the same rake twice.

In view of the beginning of the Khrushchev rule, history has undergone changes, as they say. Therefore, there are many opinions and it is contradictory.

I would like to know the truth.

[allian]

Quote: ShadowCat

Why did England merge? But this is lyrics

Are you sure Britain has merged? And who accepted the surrender of Germany? By the way, the French also accepted. From this the "share" of the USSR decreased from 1/3 to 1/4. But the "great Dzhugashvili" kept quiet. Because he knew his true place in this "coalition".

[Pilat2009]

Quote: allian

By the way, the French accepted too.

And even the Chinese and Dutch

[Buffalo]

Not only Dzhugashvili knew, but also all the heads of the heads of the Union delegations, who is I.V. Stalin.
In Tehran, the Western Allies agreed not to get up at the entrance of Stalin. But when Stalin entered, they all stood up at the same time!

[Shadowcat]

Given the heat of passion at the end of the war, it was already tantamount to smoking in a powder warehouse. Given that T. Roosevelt died, and in his place an ardent anti-communist Truman came, and even from above V. Churchill, the actions of I.V. Stalin were understandable.
If you pull your head and just think - the country has just finished the 5 year war which - the tadams actually fought alone (name me at least one worthy battle that completely changed the situation in the European theater).
Yes, the USSR as a result turned out to be the most efficient and most experienced army, not to mention its excellent technical equipment, which in most cases wiped the nose of the allies.
But there is another side - depleted reserves as material resources in the form of resources that were stored before the war, technical (depreciation of the tank, plane and automobile fleet), human (losses were where to get from them) and moral.
Do you think that it would be better to continue the war, but with the situation in England / USA / Remains of European powers - the USSR - Japan?

[Scraptor]

4 out of 5 German soldiers were killed on the Eastern Front ...

[Setrac]

Because the Third Reich with its allies had a twofold advantage in terms of population, a fourfold advantage in industrial potential.

[allian]

Quote: Setrac

Because the Third Reich with its allies had a twofold advantage in terms of population, a fourfold advantage in industrial potential.

Before whom? Before the countries of the "anti-Hitler coalition"? You forget that since the fall of 1941. The USSR, as an independent unit, ceased to exist. Dzhugashvili leaked it in favor of the Anglo-Saxons. Then the Axis countries fought against the Allies. And the role of the USSR for the Allies was not to say enviable. Compare the losses of the USSR and the rest of the Coalition countries.

[tolian]

allian, yours ..... Compare the losses of the USSR and other countries of the Coalition ..... introduces skepticism into yours ... Then the Axis countries fought against the Allies. So argue Bandera, belolentochniki, unfinished Natsik.

[allian]

Quote: tolian

Next, the Axis countries fought against the Allies.

Didn't the USSR have big losses? Did it all happen with little blood and on foreign territory? Was the contribution to human lives of the member countries of the Coalition the same? 1/4 each, how was Germany divided?
If this is not the case, then WHY was it divided by 4? Why didn't the "allies" be sent to hell? Thinking? That's just it.

[Scraptor]

Where is there 1/4 and even within the borders of 1937? They shared it like ivs. Europe along the line of demarcation of troops, from which the "allies", after hesitating, still backed away.

[avt]

Quote: tolian

. So argue Bandera, belolentochniki, unfinished Natsik.

You don’t understand with whom you are conducting a discussion! ??

Quote: tolian

happen that already in the fall of 1941. The USSR, as an independent unit, ceased to exist. Dzhugashvili leaked it in favor of the Anglo-Saxons.

And there was "independent" Ukraine?

Quote: allian

The USSR had no big losses?

There were, the troops were comparable with the German, despite the difference in attitude towards the prisoners, but very large losses among the civilians being destroyed by punishers, Ukrainian and Baltic policemen from Nazis - Hitler’s lackeys were especially atrocious, the Ethonians were noted in the Pskov region as well. SS Khatyn, for example, was burned with people. And Dzhugashvili, the party nickname Stalin at Yalta, the World shared with his allies and set the rules of conduct for decades. Another Chiang Kai-shek endorsed the protocols signed in OUR Crimea.

[Foxmara]

Quote: allian

Next, the Axis countries fought against the Allies.

and fought a lot? in the year 39 they declared war and sat in the trenches - powerfully ..
the British waited for the Germans to start drowning their transports. The Yankees also suffered a lot of losses from submarines and could not turn the tide immediately, and then, using the experience of Tommy. And so, German submarines drowned American ships NEAR the US coast ... After and during the war, all allies recognized the role of the USSR and only with the onset of the cold did the propaganda that you are pushing here.

[Shadowcat]

Yes, if Hitler hadn’t faped on Tommy so that he wouldn’t wash the lion and the unicorn, he would have normally sponsored Britain in the 37-39th Kingsmarin stupidly pressed his paws because their island was stupidly left without resources.
Yes. An exiled government, like France, could have shifted to Canada / India, but nevertheless it’s about the capital, it means how to get a peasant on a grand scale on bells.

[Setrac]

The participation of other countries of the anti-Hitler coalition was symbolic, so the losses are small. You need to look not at the loss of the USSR with the allies, but who has grinded how many German divisions, and you will immediately realize that the USSR defeated Germany almost all by itself.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Setrac

Because the Third Reich with its allies had a twofold advantage in population

So what? The whole population went to war?

[kotvov]

So what? The whole population went to war ?,
don’t you know how armies are formed? how much can be called up, how much should be in agriculture, how much in industry?

[Pilat2009]

Quote: kotvov

look yes fancy, but do not be clever

Well, if you're so smart, why are you comparing the population of all of Europe with the USSR and not with the anti-Hitler coalition?

[tolian]

Resident, you have a misunderstanding with the definition "everything is in order".

[Mareman Vasilich]

Yes, because in a nutshell this can not be explained. You have to read and study yourself, then you will understand. And to get started, read this http://topwar.ru/31627-strategiya-bet-taktiku-logistika-strategiyu-pochemu-voysk
a-ne-gotovilis-v-1941-m.html

Then study I. Pykhalov and B. Yulin, A. Eliseev, E. Prudnikov, study the memoirs of marshals and generals, simple front-line soldiers. Then you will begin to understand, unless of course you are an admirer of rezun, corned beef, Svanidze and Mlechin with Solzhenitsyn.

[jktu66]

But then why did the Red Army retreat in your way to Moscow and the Volga if everything was adjusted with the command staff and weapons?

In the Red Army there were catastrophically few 1mv veterans who were hardened in battles who took part in preparing the decisive defeat of the enemy for the spring-summer of 1917. They were to comprehend the events of 1mv and formulate the strategy and tactics of a future war, to form the basis of the senior and senior officers, as it was in the Wehrmacht. Malinowski, when returning in 1919 from France, was not miraculously shot. And how many were deprived of their life, honor, awards, honors, scattered around the world. (There was once an article on the VO about Russian officers who ensured victory in the war for the army of the South American country that sheltered them)
The Russian army twice, in 1812, and in 1915 did not allow the superior enemy to encircle and destroy their main forces, but in an organized manner retreated and eventually stopped the enemy.
In the Red Army, the doctrine of war with little blood and on foreign territory turned into a tragedy of 1941-42

[Scraptor]

Because the traitors from the command staff / political departments set up aviation on the first day of the war and then the USSR fought almost without it. Counterattack on the Volga near Stalingrad, and that was in bad weather. Air supremacy was won only by the Battle of Kursk in the summer of 1943 when the evacuated industry produced the right amount of aircraft.

[Shadowcat]

Sir, you are a little wrong. The backwardness of the USSR in aircraft was more evident (tadam) in the Spanish Civil War. New aircraft such as the Yak-1, Mig-3, Pe-3 currents began to enter the troops. The basis was a good-old horse I-16 and others like him. (I'm talking about fighter currents)
In general, this is how to try to vyzhivatsya on the brow armed with a gun with a gun. (I want to note, for example, that in modern times our pilots fly the good old Su-2x horse not a good life, but only because the Su-3x generation is not enough)

Quote: Scraptor

Counterattack on the Volga near Stalingrad, and that was in bad weather.

Duc so far meteorology cannot predict the weather. Housing and communal services still - "the snow fell unexpectedly." But in essence it is more a work of interconnectedness and saturation of troops.
A little later, the unfolding battle in the Kuban (even before Kursk) proved that ours worked it out. Taking experience in the Caucasus (where old Ishachki demolished entire divisions in one gulp of RSs at the tip of army scouts) they demonstrated experience and superiority.
During the Kursk, new stars came up - for example LaGG

[Scraptor]

Sir, you are almost completely wrong. 80% of the cars (including almost all new ones) were knocked out at the main airfields on the first day of the war (it is not known who ordered them to be concentrated there from field airfields on Friday), there was another sabotage because of which they became just targets for the Luftwaffe. The Israelis did the same in terms of the removal of aerodrome strips and then the disposal of the Arab Air Force on June 5, 1967.

Without aircraft, on one side in both cases the war then went somehow wrong ...

LaGG flew at the beginning of the war.
If the Su-34s are replaced by all Su-24s, then this will be a crime on a national scale, because there are tasks that there is no one to solve except the Su-24 and MiG-23/27. For example, a low-altitude air defense breakthrough.

As the weather was predicted back then, even before the satellites, weather stations were needed for this ... and now they have been ravaged in the Russian Federation, and so far they are recovering slowly, if they are recovering at all ... The Ardennes also began in bad weather.

For the Kuban air battle, the USSR simply managed to rivet a lot of aircraft, which made it possible to surpass the Germans there in fighters by 3-4 times in quantity and arrange them for separation in height (Kuban whatnot). They resorted to excessive separation because the Soviet fighters had a lack of thrust-to-weight ratio ... Having stumbled and lost most of their aces there, the Luftwaffe fell into decay due to the fact that there was no one to teach and cover their young in battles. Only after this did the "allies" begin massive raids on Germany, with an advantage of 1 in 10-15.

[Alf]

Quote: Scraptor

If the Su-34s are replaced by all Su-24s, then this will be a crime on a national scale, because there are tasks that there is no one to solve except the Su-24 and MiG-23/27. For example, a low-altitude air defense breakthrough.

In the future, the Russian Aerospace Forces plan to receive 150-200 aircraft of this type [23] and completely replace them with Su-2020 by 24. [24]

And why can't the SU-34 break through an air defense breakthrough at low altitude?

Why do MIG-23 break through air defense? MIG-23 is a fighter.
Is MIG-27 is in service with the Russian Air Force?

Russia Russia - in 1993, due to a change in the political situation and a total lack of funds, a massive write-off of the MiG-27 began, followed by the disbandment of regiments and the delivery of vehicles to storage bases in Lipetsk, Tambov, Steppe, Chebenki, Slavgorod and Taldy Kurgan. Most of the aircraft handed over to the storage bases were in excellent condition, but due to lack of funding and, accordingly, due care, they quickly lost their combat effectiveness. The first Chechen war again aroused interest in this aircraft (chief designer A. A. Popov several times personally went to storage bases to determine the possibility of “reanimation” of the MiG-27, especially the MiG-27K), but “twenty-seventh” from the storage bases in most of them were already unsuitable for flying.

Due to the difficult economic situation in 1993 in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, almost all MiG-27s and their modifications were decommissioned, transferred to storage facilities and almost all disposed of.

[Scraptor]

Quote: Alf

And why can't the SU-34 break through an air defense breakthrough at low altitude?

Because it will fall apart, or the pilots will have soft-boiled brains from shaking ...

Quote: Alf

Why do MIG-23 break through air defense? MIG-23 is a fighter.

Then, what else would air defense knock down. For example, accompanied by Su-2/34

Quote: Alf

Is MIG-27 is in service with the Russian Air Force?

it was they who were in advance for a long time ... it was a very good plane. Especially if you cannot compare with "Kaira", with SEPECAT.

[Shadowcat]

Quote: Scraptor

Because it will fall apart, or the pilots will have soft-boiled brains from shaking ...

umm ... either I or something I do not understand. Why does one fall apart and the other not?
And I can’t understand your addiction to difficult-to-operate machines (MiG-23 and Su-24 have a variable wing sweep)

[Scraptor]

You don’t understand the roofing felts ... Because the Su-34 or F-15E or FA-18 will greatly shake. You can see on recent flights over the Su-24 freeways what sweep their wing is on.
In addition to the Su-24 and MiG-23, many more aircraft have variable sweep: F-14, Tornado, F-111, B-1 (also a low-altitude breakthrough), Tu-22M3, Tu-160.

[Shadowcat]

umm ... as simple as I know, a variable sweep is needed for more lift and, as a result, less take-off for take-off.
In addition, why perform such a complicated and dangerous move if it is cheaper and easier to take and work out the X-31P (D / K) and the air defense stops working, and it becomes calmer to fly?
In addition, at low altitudes there is an opportunity to run into the Stingers and the like, not to mention the simple problems of the terrain.

[Scraptor]

It is a lot of what is needed on a multi-mode aircraft. So just with a larger wingspan, the shatter more shakes.

Not easier. There’s a kindergarten right ... What if some previously unknown air defense from an ambush starts to work and launch rockets?
At low altitude, the plane is both invisible to them and generally is an element of surprise.
Even over the freeways, this maneuver is practiced. The shooter with MANPADS does not have time to aim, and the relay is dispensed with the help of a computer system for following it. Around the same time, flying at extremely low altitude.

[Shadowcat]

You made me dig deep.

One of the main combat modes of the Su-34 flight will be a low-speed high-speed throw following the terrain. However, an airplane created on the basis of a fighter air glider fighter and having a wing with a relatively low specific load (albeit slightly larger than that of the lighter Su-27) will be unduly influenced by air vibrations, a "chatter" caused by the unstable state of air masses in the surface layer. This can affect the physical ability of the crew to perform a long low-altitude flight, and in some cases lead to an emergency (for these reasons, in particular, the duration of the low-altitude flight section of the American strike aircraft McDonnell-Douglas F-15E “Strike Eagle”, also created based on an air combat fighter and equipped with a terrain following system). On the Su-34, the problem of “comfort” at low altitude flight was solved by using an automatic damping system for aircraft oscillations in the pitch plane (such equipment was installed only on the Rockwell B-1B American strategic bomber).

[Scraptor]

Quote: ShadowCat

the problem of “comfort” of low-altitude flight was resolved through the use of an automatic damping system for aircraft oscillations in the pitch plane (such equipment was installed only on the Rockwell V-1V strategic bomber).

Su-27 unstable aircraft, active pitch system on it by default.
Shakes in all planes.
This is generally a hit in turbulence.

[Shadowcat]

Who is arguing? This was eliminated in the new generation.

[Scraptor]

This is not a new generation, and without constant sweep it cannot be eliminated.

[Shadowcat]

What is your evidence?

[Scraptor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNa7IqoWkbQ

[Scraptor]

or you need a small rhombic wing like on the anti-ship missile or on the Starfighter ...

[Scraptor]

Su-17/22 more ...

[Alf]

Quote: Scraptor

Quote: Alf
And why can't the SU-34 break through an air defense breakthrough at low altitude?
Because it will fall apart, or the pilots will have soft-boiled brains from shaking ...

But what is the thickness of the SU-24 sheathing thicker than that of the SU-34?

[Scraptor]

The Su-34 wing is not folding.

[Alf]

Quote: Scraptor

The Su-34 wing is not folding.

Not "folding", but "variable sweep". If the wing has folded, then the scribe already needs to think not about a breakthrough, but how to quickly press the catapult.
The fixed wing has greater strength than with variable sweep. It is for this reason that Grumman F-14 Tomket and MIG-23 first had problems with overloading.

[Scraptor]

Ordinary planes used to land with folded (F-4) or with generally falling off (F-15).
Do decker helicopters have folding blades?

There is almost no difference in strength, there is a slight weighting, which justifies itself for multi-mode.

[Shadowcat]

phew ... Sori that hesitated with an answer, but let's get started.

Quote: Scraptor

were knocked out at the main airfields on the first day of the war (it is not known who gave the order to concentrate them there from field airfields

Excuse me, where should the border cover aircraft be located? Definitely not in Siberia, but at a distance of the combat radius of use, which was not very large.
Focused on airfields - so not the harvesters to concentrate them in the field. There weren’t enough airfields, because they weren’t bloopers and were ready to build.

Concerning concentration - there was a logical order. Lead troops on alert. This is i.e. sit / stand / sleep, but be prepared to grab a gun and run on command.
Given that they first attacked (by the way, building a radar is even more expensive and harder than an airfield), and then they made a note to the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It is logical that the order was given later than it should and as a result of the loss.

Quote: Scraptor

The Ardennes also began in bad weather.

Given the advantages of the Allies over the Luftwaffe, it was quite logical for the Wehrmacht to act this way. Given that the Shermans simply could not oppose the Panthers and the Tigers, this is a very logical and reasonable action by the army that used its advantage

Seamlessly move on to the Kuban.
Being unbelievers let's go easy. Add the number of aircraft according to both sides and divide by two.
Total: 1275 aircraft (USSR) - 900 aircraft (Germany)
It is a normal ratio for the advancing / defending, given the cover of a pair of anti-aircraft regiments from the defense.
I won’t talk about losses - If you believe the German asses, then there everyone defeated the Soviet fleet several times.
Players had (see only fighters) (in parentheses I will try to indicate the thrust-weight ratio for those I found): USSR: Yak-1 (.24), Yak-1B (.31), La-5 (0,53), LaGG-3 , P-39, P-40, Yak-7b (.33), Splitfier Mk V; (Given that the rather old Yak-1 is compared and they say that the performance characteristics were quite comparable with 109 further I'm too lazy)
Germany: Bf.109G (.21), Bf.110G (.16)
By the way, due to the difference in the types of aircraft, it immediately seems that they were "overwhelmed with bodies", i.e. "filled up with planes", but I would like to note the supply problems. Each aircraft has a motor resource, and they also tend to require fuel and lubricants (and if the Soviets needed one, then the foreign ones needed others), as well as the need for spare parts for field repair (strange thing, they shoot at the planes) which gave rise to logical assume incredible crap and headache for the rear and supply chain.
Looking at the thrust-to-weight ratio of ours, we can speak further on the current for armament and decoration.
But looking at La-5, talking further is pointless.

[Scraptor]

Quote: ShadowCat

Excuse me, where should the border cover aircraft be located?

at a large number of field airfields and not at the main bases. aviation then was all unpaved, a roller was rolling out the field - that's all "build".
there was a false order on the advanced units to concentrate the aircraft back, other forms of sabotage - such as the dissolution of pilots and technicians on them for the weekend, the sending of anti-aircraft guns covering the airfields to training grounds, the removal of weapons and even engines from aircraft ...

In the Kuban there was an advantage of 3 or 4 to 1, which was why it was possible to break with the help of wide separation in height only this way, it became clear from a comparison of the power of the motors (by the way, licensed, but pre-war). The Germans were 1,5 times more powerful even without short-term forcing.
For La-5, continue by comparing the number of trunks on it and on the FW-190 ...
According to the Yak-1/3 so that it sometimes fell apart from a rifle caliber bullet and one of the machine guns was removed.
Aerocobra did not fly well on verticals (it’s an attack aircraft, and even as such it didn’t make the USAF / USN American), Spitfire is a high-altitude driver, where Germans usually did not fly on the eastern front.

[Shadowcat]

Oh holy hedgehogs! You at least provide links! Where do you get this from?

According to the same data that I brought the difference only one and a half times, and separation was achieved just because of the hodgepodge of different models.

In addition, comparing La-5 and Fock is incorrect ... It is in this battle because Foki were in the modification of the A5, or attack aircraft. Here it is more correct to compare with the IL-2. Which, too, if it enters an enemy’s plane and works ...

[Scraptor]

What exactly?

The difference in engine power is one and a half times, separation can be done on one or two types as the Germans had.

What's not with the Aircobra? Was the Il-2 a fighter? Why does a piston attack aircraft need "improved cockpit oxygen equipment" (Wikipedia)? It was not even installed on all fighters at that time, and besides the A5, there were other attack aircraft and other modifications of the FW-190. Think ...

[Shadowcat]

Quote: Scraptor

What exactly?

About airplanes, about motors. About Yaks who flew and shot down without machine guns, about how they fell apart.

Quote: Scraptor

separation can also be done on one or two types, as was the case with the Germans.

Why then did not?

Quote: Scraptor

Why does a piston attack aircraft need "improved cockpit oxygen equipment" (Wikipedia)?

And did it help them?

Quote: Scraptor

and besides the A5 then there were both other attack aircraft and other modifications of the FW-190.

According to the Germans, the assault version was delivered. The fact that they could use it as a fighter is what their right says.

[Scraptor]

You can start with Wikipedia. Almost everything about engines, the removal of weapons is there, about super-light spruce yaks, you may have to ask Google ...

Because it was not enough for this aircraft. They were not even enough in Stalingrad. Therefore, the counteroffensive began in bad weather (like German in the Ardennes), and not in good weather.

Of course. This is an attack fighter.

[Tambov Wolf]

What are these "generals"? Which people were poisoned during the civil period with gases and mustard gas, and then they organized conspiracies against the people? This, dear comrade, both echoes and responds.

[stephan cat]

It was, of course. But, not so simple
http://warspot.ru/4087-kakoy-byla-krasnaya-armiya-do-repressiy-1937-goda

[cuzmin.mihail2013]

Stalin destroyed the traitors! Unfortunately, by the beginning of the war, not all (Pavlov, etc.). Rare exceptions (Rokosovsky and others). But, these errors have been fixed.

[PPL]

Quote: KUOLEMA

With one rifle for three, liberals and resunoids came up with and the training was not bad, but with the command it was stressful in the first stage

Yes, the training was not bad, but the rapid advance of the Wehrmacht brought this training practically to nothing. Problems with the supply of the Red Army arose almost immediately after the outbreak of war, because a huge number of warehouses were left during the retreat. The troops lacked a lot, including weapons and ammunition! It was not for nothing that a cry was thrown - we will help the Red Army. It was possible to partially alleviate the situation only in 1942; normal supply began in 1943.
Refer to the orders of the NCO (People’s Commissariat of Defense) of that time.
And don't forget that the best defense against logic is ignorance.

[Senior manager]

A well-known participant in the war who was captured near Vyazma talked about the queues for rifles. I have no reason not to trust his words. And he did not know the words of the liberal-resunoid

[PROHOJIY]

In principle, it is possible. But what does this mean? In my opinion, only that in this particular unit in this sector of the front there were problems with supply. But the theme is that "one rifle for three" is raised to the rank of a systemic phenomenon.

[lelikas]

Quote: St. Propulsion

A well-known participant in the war who was captured near Vyazma talked about the queues for rifles. I have no reason not to trust his words. And he did not know the words of the liberal-resunoid

They fed me in the army for slaughter, drove a friend to an ulcer - according to him, they don’t feed me in the army, I didn’t have enough from my gobbling here, but someone didn’t have enough ....

[tolian]

These skaeks about one rifle for three with foam through rotten teeth are puked by chemists-historians like Svanidzey. junalists like Venediktov’s type or fighters for inverters like Slavinsky-Alekseevs.

[van zai]

I don't know who you call rezunoids, but it was Rezun who successfully, persistently and systematically refuted the myth of "one rifle for three".

[derik1970]

you were there? were at the front? fought? liberals have you come up with everything? ... I have a great-grandfather from the Nazi concentration camp returned home in 1945, Thank God he still lived after captivity. I heard from him that there used to be one rifle for three or even not at all ... sit here to assent ... another question, who are you or the liberals rewriting the story ... take off the pink glasses ... the war is hard, dirty work, there were a lot of things, unfortunately there are a lot of similar opuses such as expert analysis ... not everything was written in the documents .. .

[Predator]

Why did the liberals come up with ?! They simply inflated certain facts that were real. And one rifle for three it was still gorgeous. So, not a single engineering and construction battalion ZapVO, KOVO and SZOVO had weapons (except for the commanders of mouth-TT or Nagan), the military contingent did not have weapons from 22.06/10.07.1941/XNUMX sent to replenish divisions (must be armed upon arrival). The numbering divisions formed by mobilization did not have enough weapons (there is a number, but divisions, as there is no real force) and the mobile depots remained on territory already captured by the Germans. And the rest is just a ... well and provocation.
And at the expense of troop training, it was at the level of both ordinary ranks and command (excluding top command personnel). Everything would be so bad, then there would be the Reich instead of the Russian Federation, and the liberals would become tolerant .... But we won and everything is said.

[Snow]

My great-grandfather was captured by the Germans near Staraya Russa, telling what they had 1 rifle and 7 rounds for two. For some reason, I believe in great-grandfather.
See now fashionable to "destroy myths" what happened? If, for example, "Stalin's bloodiness" really looks like a myth, then according to sorry about the rifles !! Of course, it's nice to know that "everything was not so bad", but ALARM, IT'S NOT AT ALL A MYTH

[rohl]

Ahaha. Rezun just refuted this myth =) =) you are so funny. A poorly educated and template-minded person.

[Hubun]

Exactly, a lie. Liars to responsibility

[Mikhalychch]

And you fought in those years? .. You and Stalin had a great commander, but he simply shot unnecessary ones. And Voroshilov allowed the Nazis to surround Leningrad, thinking that they would flee when an avalanche of horsemen with drafts would go to tanks, even for himself Stalin removed him from the command of the army.

[Shadowcat]

Well, you certainly are a contemporary of those times. Lend the crap of time, huh?

[avt]

Quote: Mikhalychch

You and Stalin had a great commander, but he simply shot unnecessary ones. And Voroshilov allowed the fascists to surround Leningrad, thinking that they would flee when the avalanche of cavalry with sabers went to tanks, even Stalin himself removed him from the army command.

Hey, how many cavalrymen were among the tank generals in the Wehrmacht? And after what time, fed, without reprisals with the victorious marshals of the First World War and the allied English army, France surrendered, packed with modern technology? And where during the same period of time was the Red Army and did Stalin surrender? Did allies change their commanders in case of failure? Did Hitler change his commanders in case of failure? Manstein, for example, Guderian in 41st, or different von Bocks? well, congratulations - really the echo comes from real events that happened. That's what liberal coekakers admire me, along with the banderlogging ragul, it's a complete lack of desire to find out anything specific for expanding horizons. They are in full confidence that they were already born with sacred knowledge of everything and to their fragmentary, not supported by NONE fact confirmed nonsense, not just OBLIGED to listen - to catch every word on the fly! And they are terribly insulted to hysteria if they are not perceived as oracles.

[allian]

Quote: avt

And after how long, France, surrendered, without repression with the victorious marshals of the First World and Allied British Army, packed with modern equipment, surrendered?

France did not give up, France surrendered. Moreover, it is completely thought out and realized. The high French military command surrendered. Which refused to shed the blood of the French for the interests of the Anglo-Saxons. It was a very difficult and responsible political decision. But among the French, people capable of accepting him were found.

Quote: avt

And where in the same period of time the Red Army stood and did Stalin capitulate?

Of course, he capitulated. He also joined the "anti-Hitler coalition". And that was surrender. The USSR in this coalition paid with "cannon fodder". In addition, he claimed only 1/4 of the post-war bonuses. Real surrender. Only before the Anglo-Saxons. Does it somehow make it easier for you? More pleasant?

Quote: avt

But Hitler did not change his commanders upon failure? Manstein, for example, Guderian at 41m, or different von Bokov?

Do not compare how Guderian with von Bock and others framed Hitler, but how Voroshilov. Voroshilov did not even set him up at all, so he showed a little incompetence. And the German "generals" set up Hitler specifically. Actually, it is specifically they who are the main "creators of the victory" of the USSR over Germany. The main participants in this event.

[avt]

Quote: allian

France did not give up, France surrendered.

Let them guess - according to the new research, historians "handed over the negotiations that thwarted the signing" negotiations with Britain and France, who sent a delegation WITHOUT LEGAL RIGHT TO SIGN ANY DOCUMENTS, "bloody tyrant" Stalin, who signed a non-aggression pact exactly the same as the one signed by the Poles with Hitler, with Ribentropp, and his "henchman" "horse marshal" - the USSR representative at those negotiations Voroshilov.

Quote: allian

m from this somehow it became easier? More pleasant?

Personally, it's not that much easier for me - I'm just HAPPY that as a result of such a "surrender", I just stayed LIVE and did not fall under the plan "Ost" my parents were then children and my low bow to all the soldiers of the Red Army who defended the USSR, which existed until 1991 until the communist elite "exchanged their" birthright "- to decide the fate of the World for" lentil stew "- personal dollar well-being. And I am ashamed of their memory for the fact that we did not preserve their entire legacy.

Quote: allian

... And the German "generals" set up Hitler specifically.

The generals of the Wehrmacht and Rommel in particular, really set up Hitler ONCE - allowing the allies to land in Normandy without hindrance and turn around. About which the Angles have already broadcast in the open press quite openly and made a good film on the BBC - "What Happened to Rommel" Quite an objective film.

Quote: allian

they are specifically the main "creators of the victory" of the USSR over Germany.

Yah !!!!!! But what about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and Bandera personally! ???? Well, which still holds back the Mongol-Tatar-Moskovian hordes ???

[allian]

Quote: avt

I see you are a big fan of writing all sorts of nonsense. Which refute even somehow inconvenient, so they are obvious. For example, even the fact that the German troops in France was commanded not by Rommel, but by Rundstedt.
I won’t even comment on the other nonsense.

[Nehist]

Who told you that Rundstedt? Initially, Rommel was the commander.

[allian]

Quote: Nehist

Who told you that Rundstedt?

In March 1942, Hitler returned von Rundstedt to the service and again appointed him commander of the occupying forces in the West. Learn the story.

[allian]

Quote: Nehist

Who told you that Rundstedt?

In March 1942, Hitler returned von Rundstedt to the service and again appointed him commander of the occupying forces in the West. Learn the story.

[avt]

Quote: allian

I see you are a big fan of writing all sorts of nonsense. Which refute even somehow inconvenient, so they are obvious.

I recognize Svidomo pid the mask of the intelligentsia not delving into specific details. Yes, I obeyed, but it was Rommel, whom Rommel was sent to France at the end of November 1943. On December 31, 1943, he was given command of Army Group B, and although he was directly subordinate to Field Marshal von Runstedt, Rommel was in charge of a vast territory from Holland to Bordeaux and organized coastal defenses against the anticipated Allied invasion. He was also appointed Inspector General and included the Atlantic Wall. While preparing Western Europe for defense, Rommel developed special anti-landing and anti-landing barriers called "Rommel-Spargel" (Rommel's Asparagus), along with many other structures. So it was Rommel who was directly responsible for the defense of the coast, and it was he who was forced to shoot himself under the threat of his family's life.

[Nehist]

I have not read more epic nonsense! Dear, at least read the documents.

[allian]

Quote: Nehist

I have not read more epic nonsense! Dear, at least read the documents.

You and I have different documents. "I do not consider the agitation and propaganda department of the CPSU Central Committee documents.

[avt]

Quote: allian

We have different documents with you. "

Yeah, like the story of Ukraine with the construction of the pyramids.

Quote: allian

I do not consider the agitation materials of the Agitation and Propaganda Department of the CPSU Central Committee documents.

Well, judging by the comments, they began to compose themselves, that's about the German generals and the "Barbarossa" plan will do just like ykrov's liberation struggle against the Germans of the SS "Galicia" division and the policemen under the leadership of SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Shukhevych. There are in Russia the same comrades-in-arms according to whom Vlasov made his way to Leningrad at the head of the second shock to organize resistance to Stalin, but did not grow together and he went to the Germans - Gavrila Popov and Igor Chubais, here start referring to them and take over the experience. for such a revolt at the eurodome? The Angles said Rommel betrayed - all-eee! No evidence for people like you not a treba!

[MrK]

Quote: allian

The high French military command surrendered. Which refused to shed the blood of the French for the interests of the Anglo-Saxons. It was a very difficult and responsible political decision. But among the French, people capable of accepting him were found.

France, for example, did not carry out Stalinist purges. Result? The country collapsed overnight. And not only because the army fought mediocre and sluggish (although this can not be discounted). In France, the damned cloud of “werewolves” acted with impunity. Like the former communist leader Dorio, after the occupation he appeared in the SS form, like the socialist Dae, who became one of the main pro-Hitler figures.
Here is what a prominent French journalist Henri Simon wrote: “Sabotage was not only the work of Hitler agents. It involved a large part of the business world, as well as senior officials from among the civilian and military authorities ... France was not defeated by Hitler. It was destroyed from the inside by the “fifth column”, which possessed the most influential ties in the government, in business circles, in the state apparatus and in the army"[Andre Simon" I ACCUSE! "Http://www.telenir.net/istorija/o_teh_kto_predal_franciyu/p2.php].
QUOTE SAME FROM THE BOOK: [KURLYANDCHIK A.– “THE CURSED SOVIET AUTHORITY” ... ON PROSA.RU]

[allian]

Quote: avt

And after how long, France, surrendered, without repression with the victorious marshals of the First World and Allied British Army, packed with modern equipment, surrendered?

France did not give up, France surrendered. Moreover, it is completely thought out and realized. The high French military command surrendered. Which refused to shed the blood of the French for the interests of the Anglo-Saxons. It was a very difficult and responsible political decision. But among the French, people capable of accepting him were found.

Quote: avt

And where in the same period of time the Red Army stood and did Stalin capitulate?

Of course, he capitulated. He also joined the "anti-Hitler coalition". And that was surrender. The USSR in this coalition paid with "cannon fodder". In addition, he claimed only 1/4 of the post-war bonuses. Real surrender. Only before the Anglo-Saxons. Does it somehow make it easier for you? More pleasant?

Quote: avt

But Hitler did not change his commanders upon failure? Manstein, for example, Guderian at 41m, or different von Bokov?

Do not compare how Guderian with von Bock and others framed Hitler, but how Voroshilov. Voroshilov did not even set him up at all, so he showed a little incompetence. And the German "generals" set up Hitler specifically. Actually, it is specifically they who are the main "creators of the victory" of the USSR over Germany. The main participants in this event.

[Turkir]

And the German "generals" set up Hitler specifically. Actually, it is specifically they who are the main "creators of the victory" of the USSR over Germany. The main participants in this event.

You are probably a fan of the fantasy genre.

[allian]

Quote: Turkir

You are probably a fan of the fantasy genre.

No, I'm just interested in history. I do not read stupid articles, but I am interested. And I can definitely tell you that if the German generals had not abandoned the Barbarossa plan without permission and without permission, then most likely in September 1941. they would have entered the Severnaya Dvina-Volga line (line A-A). Which is what this plan envisaged. And the issue with the threat from the east for the Germans would have been removed. Further, they would provide an opportunity for Dzhugashvili to "build socialism" and shoot "enemies of the people" east of this line. Then in the summer of 1942. most likely a landing operation in Britain would follow. But how successful is unknown.

[MrK]

I agree Turkir. I will supplement it.
The programs on Echo, the books and articles of Solonin, Latynina, Rezun - make me think that I am sitting in a country defeated by Hitler and watching a movie created by Goebbels propaganda.
That is, after all, what actually turned out to be a victory in the war - a victory of the criminal regime, which is no better than the fascist one. But even worse, in such books our people are shown to be able to be only a victim who does not know how to fend for themselves. That the enemy is the Nazis and the CPSU (b). And they won despite the party, i.e. in the struggle with the fascists and with her, and only because of the fear of being imprisoned.

But most importantly, the article glorifies humility, inability to defend oneself. This is very scary, for we are now entering an era when we will urgently need the ability to defend ourselves. Our people have always had this ability, and such articles and books deny it.

But it is not Stalin who is afraid of them, but we Russians when we become ourselves. Stalin isn’t watered with shit ... and corned beef, traitors - rezuns, bitch ... and - Latins and other Russophobes. What to Stalin before their slops? Who are they and who is Stalin? This is not even funny ... Slandering Stalin, sorry for the rude, but exact word, they "lower" our Russian (Soviet) ancestors, grandfathers and great-grandfathers, but THROUGH THIS AND US.

They, today, convince us - our ancestors were not the victors of Europe, they were not !!! They were Stalin's slaves. And they were supposed to be slaves of the Germans or Jews, but those under Stalin did not break off.
Well, all these Russophobes is a mixture of slops of people who have absorbed the “best” qualities of the first two oldest professions.

[DesToeR]

Why facts? Let's shoot the film "Enemy at the Gates" about these Russians and show them to future generations how their great-grandfathers fought.

[PROHOJIY]

More than once communicated with the Stalingraders. Their reaction to this film is swearing (from restrained to very furious). About problems and troubles told a lot of different things. But such a thing as in the film, so that no one would tell the rifle to one and the only clip to the other. Why something, and provided weapons.

[Timyr]

This myth comes from Tsarist Russia. While the Russian army was advancing, there were enough weapons, when the rifles began to retreat, it was not enough. Then rifles of Mondragon, Arisak, Mauser and Manlicher from Latin America came to Russia. The shortage of rifles amounted to 1915 rifles at the end of 1115000. There was a telegram from the October 8 stake that was supposed to equip the soldiers with axes on a long pole. Thank God they refused.

[kvs207]

I won’t say about the myth, but the fact that the tsarist army lacked weapons, and, literally in all respects, is for sure. You can read about it, Ignatiev.
The shortage of small arms from the Red Army at the beginning of the war is understandable, they wrote about this above, but I do not think that this was the rule.

[Kaiten]

I believe more in my grandfather, who left for the Moscow militia in 41, than this propaganda. Back in 75, he told my father how they, almost unarmed, were forced to attack Moscow and pick up weapons from soldiers who had been killed before. And after the attack, the Andons came from headquarters and were forced to surrender the selected weapons.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: Kaiten

Back in 75, he told my father how they, almost unarmed, were forced to attack Moscow and pick up weapons from soldiers who had been killed before.

After Atalef, Professor and others, I'm already afraid to comment on "Stars and Stripes". Painfully reluctant to get involved in g..ovn..osr..ach.

Who are you Kaiten, promised that the war is fun, good and plenty? Hitler in the 39th, when he promised every German a sandwich for breakfast? Reagan in the 83rd when the US tore Grenada? Or Bush, when he sent a soldier for 33 stars to Iraq and Afghanistan?

War is not Egyptians bombing the desert on the only road when they foolishly with flags and convoys set off across the desert to fight your new homeland. There is always something missing in the war, and you have to think for yourself where to get it. And, even more so, in such a war in which your grandfather fought. And mine, by the way, too. Only not near Moscow, but in besieged Leningrad. AND, I am sure he told this to your father not with that nasty intonation with which today's star-striped of all stripes mock the fact that in the 41st there were not enough rifles. "Ahhh, such-and-such commies, they didn't even give the people rifles. Specially, because of their natural bloodthirstiness, poor Jews were sent to slaughter ..." So what? No, not so. TA war was a war for the survival of the state, for the destruction of either one country or another. And, I think, there is no need to remind how many enterprises remain in the occupied territory. Therefore, Of course, no one was going to apologize to the unarmed militia, but if you didn’t have enough weapons, get it in battle, use what is at hand. Even a pencil can be a deadly weapon. Yes, with bare hands to strangle at least one enemy - and that is a contribution to the Victory. They taught us like that ...

Probably, changing their homeland like smelly socks (removed, spat, threw out) this is not understood. In your new homeland is jo ... ne warmer? Well, a flag in your hands, a drum around your neck ... Tell everyone about the great state of Israel and do not spread dirt on your former homeland or your grandfather ...

[Kaiten]

We’ll see how you would sing if you got into a battle, and from a weapon like a monkey you had only sticks b. In vain did you translate the topic into personalities, it just shows that in addition to insulting your arguments, you have zero.

Nikolai
NIKULIN
MEMORIES
ABOUT WAR

"Most of the books about the war of the Soviet era do not go beyond the limits defined by the" Short Course in the History of the VKPb ". Perhaps that is why they are so similar, as if they were written by the same author."

[Buffalo]

Among the writers, there were also enough denigrants.
Vasil Bykov (emigrated from Belarus), Victor Astafyev, etc. Looking from their trenches, they later tried to condemn the command, only on the grounds that it was extremely difficult for them at the front.

[Alone]

Let's remember Rezun?

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: Alone

Let's remember Rezun?

In-in .. He is also the "truth-teller" of the escaped. And then - in some of his books he wrote that the British military computer modeled the Mannerheim line for him and gave him that it was inaccessible without tactical nuclear weapons.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: Kaiten

Let's see how you started singing if he got into battle, but from a weapon you like a monkey, only sticks were used.

А YOU Do you think that after the 45th we had nowhere to fight? AND YOU Do you think that in my time you did not get into battle "with one stick"? Only we behaved not like monkeys, but as befits a RUSSIAN SOLDIER.

Knocked down - fight on your knees, you can’t get up - step on the ground! Nothing to shoot - bite your teeth!

Remind whose quote?

And he changed his personality, because the grandfathers who defended Moscow grew up grandchildren who did not remember the words of the Motherland and did not understand what their grandfathers told them. My grandfather also survived in besieged Leningrad thanks to a stew of wood glue with snow. So, damned commies are to blame with their main cannibal Stalin at the head that they didn’t deliver sausages ?! Yes, my grandfather would kill for such words. And yours too. Because THEN there were no Jews, Russians, Chuvashs, Ukrainians — there were Russian soldiers.

It doesn't matter what your skin color or eye shape is - for the enemy you are all - RUSSIAN SOLDIERS.

The source is the same as above.

And now the descendants of THOSE soldiers have gone ... For immigrants to the Promised Land there is a good word in the Russian language - "repatriate". Do you feel the difference with the word "patriot"? "Re-" and "patria" - the one who CHANGED the Motherland. Homeland is that which does not change. As a nationality, as parents, with this they are born and die. If a soldier - then they die in battle, and not in the whining, that he lacks something to win. When do you, star-striped, learn how to poison yourself not to spit in the country in which you were born, grew up, learned and which you exchanged for the warm sand of the Dead Sea?

Do not teach us how to live and fight, do not insult the memory of your and other people's grandfathers who defended the Homeland that you abandoned. Nothing to say without barking - speak better about Palestinian terrorists, about Hezbollah, about Merkava’s tanks or about the poppy harvest in Afghanistan ... And do not touch the homeland abandoned by you, repatriates!

[erg]

I will not get involved in the current discussion, I will just say about Nikulin's memories. Mass denigration began in the late eighties and flourished in the nineties. I remember these times very well, and as a history teacher, at history lessons (late 80s), I got acquainted with various publications from the press. Then a lot was written and anything, even to justify Hitler. Various memories of the alleged participants multiplied like mushrooms after rain. And no one was afraid to print anything. But nobody heard anything about Nikulin's memories. But when they gradually began to figure out what was what, then these memories suddenly suddenly appeared. Moreover, after the death of the author (whether the author?). Just like the ace of trump from the sleeve of the sharper. Moreover, such a late appearance was due to the alleged fear of the author. What fear? In the nineties it was possible to praise Hitler and everyone did not care. I remember very well what brochures were sold in those years in every passage in Moscow. In general, a dark story with these "memories". Yes, I read them myself. Did not impress.

[PROHOJIY]

And my grandmother is a blockade woman. So she "testified" to the last that the Badayev warehouses were blown up on Zhdanov's orders. And what, I, too, believe her, because a relative? Witnesses are also human and subject to external influences.

[Pissarro]

purely technically, it is possible to select weapons when attacking the enemy when the battlefield is yours. The militia fought defensive battles, retreating to Moscow, the Germans picked up weapons there. In addition, the USSR had strict accounting and control, because all the papers about how militia divisions how many weapons were issued

[Buffalo]

The captured weapons were handed over due to the lack of ammunition, and most importantly, because they could take their own from afar for the Germans, those who were armed with them and shelling.

[Gray 43]

My grandfather in his first battle, in Stalingrad, went with a brick, there weren’t enough weapons, so patriotism was a necessary thing, but in our history of that war, not everything was smooth and beautiful

[avt]

Quote: Gray 43

My grandfather in his first battle, in Stalingrad, went with a brick

When and where exactly. Say A, say B. If in the summer, as part of volunteers, or railway workers and soldiers of the Ministry of Defense, who, together with the soldiers of the NKVD division, stopped the breakthrough of the Germans into the city before the retreating units of the Red Army approached, I will believe that there might not be enough weapons. But to retell the French lie from the film "Enemy at the Gates" with the crossing of the landing corps / division of Rodimtsev, where the commissars / nkvdshniki who have lingered at the landing, are shot, no need to retell.

[Nagaibak]

avt "When and where exactly."
Auth! Respect !!!)))

[SVT]

Just join the question for at least a month can I clarify the first battle of your grandfather?
And also his VUS
And despite any month, I offer the following options
1 Your grandfather drowned his weapons when crossing the Volga, since they were often transported on whatever happened, since the regular means are constantly not enough when crossing, this is an axiom, no matter how many are missing, and given the shelling of the crossing, drowning a weapon is normal, that's your grandfather went into battle without weapons.
2 your grandfather was, for example, an artilleryman, the first number of a machine gun, mortar, etc., which often had PERSONAL weapons in accordance with the norms of the Second World War, and after the gun broke or it again drowned during the crossing, he went into battle without weapons, and that’s doubtful and that’s why, the battles were fierce and, accordingly, the weapons also failed, ALL NORMAL commanders ALWAYS force the soldiers to pick up weapons on the battlefield in order to have an operational substitution, so that your grandfather could slightly embellish the situation, he really could go with the brick, but, until the stronghold was located, where he had to defend himself, where he was handed a rifle, and yes, he went into battle with the brick,
Moreover, your grandfather told this to his little grandson and could tell the bike that happened to him. And he most likely told this with humor, they say, listen to my granddaughters what the situation was with me in the war, my grandfather poisoned me like that and I sat hanging up my ears, and only matured I realized that my grandfather was joking. (I apologize for the errors on the tablet and T9

[Scraptor]

Quote: Svt

And he said it most likely with humor

Have you ever hit yourself with a hammer on your finger to talk about it with humor?

[Avaks]

By the way, the production of rifles before the war was discontinued. It was believed that the army was fully equipped with them. And there was a stock of 7 million.

[avt]

Quote: avaks

By the way, the production of rifles before the war was discontinued

WHAT ??? Well, after all, they decided to say something, so bring a specific order on the profile people's commissariat! Why just spoil the air then?

Quote: avaks

it turned out that the army was fully equipped with them. And there was a stock of 7 million units

If about "mosinka", so generally the army was going to change them to self-loading SVT and Simonovs. For a moment - only TWO armies massively put into service BEFORE the war, self-loading rifles - the USA and the USSR. Another thing is that during the war had to quite to itself OBJECTIVE production and material financial difficulties to revive the mass production of the three-line.

[allian]

Quote: avt

For a second - only TWO armies were massively armed BEFORE the war, self-loading rifles - USA and the USSR. Another thing is that already during the war it was necessary to revive the mass production of the three-ruler because of quite OBJECTIVE production and material and financial difficulties.

I like these tales.
Comrades love to compare the SVT-40 samopal with the Garand rifle. For starters, Garand worked fine. Long and tedious. As befits a normal army weapon.
And the SVT-40 also worked. But not long and not boring at all. Therefore, it was discontinued. We had to fight the gouging of WW1 times, better known as "mosinka".
For reference, "Mosinka" was a rifle with the worst performance characteristics among European 1MV rifles (except for the Italian one, that was worse). But it is very "technological".
The same British Lee-Enfield had a TTX almost at the level of self-loading. This explains the fact that the British did not have self-loading. I didn’t need it.
The Mauser rifle did not have enough stars from the sky and clearly did not reach the British level. But the Germans made a "knight's move" and relied on uniform machine guns. For which in the second half of the war they were specifically punished. And rushed to produce "assault rifle" ersatz. Just to plug the gap in the density of fire. At any price. Even at the cost of reducing the effectiveness of the fire.
I will not describe the Italian 1MV rifle. There is nothing to describe there. By the time of 2MB (1938), the Italians prudently tried to switch from a ridiculous caliber of 6,5 mm to a more normal 7,35 mm. But they could not, the production base did not allow. As a result, they fought mainly with 6,5 mm bullets. And they were obvious outsiders in the rifleman.
Very good in concept was their new rifle. But since it was tied to a specific sleeve, it was not entirely optimal. Almost optimal. But it was conceived very interesting and correct. Perhaps the only European rifle was during the 2MB, in which the cartridge and ballistics were optimized. Also a very good bunch was the handbrake bolt. But all this was produced in small quantities.

[Nehist]

Dear you, where are you fed up with such nonsense? Mauser 98k is one of the best in the world, the three-line by the way was not inferior to anything. And the legendary single machine gun of the Wehrmacht is still in service

[allian]

Quote: Nehist

Mauser 98k is one of the best in the world

The Germans did not agree with you. Therefore, all the war sculpted self-loading. And then they even agreed with the assault rifle. Those. nonpontov ersatz began to replace "one of the best in the world" bolts. More comments and comments on this topic?

Quote: Nehist

the three-line by the way was not inferior to anything.

Yes, you are not just a dreamer. You are a serial dreamer. If you insist so, then compare the performance characteristics of the Mauser and the mosquitoes. And also their ballistics. If you can, of course. Then the questions will disappear by themselves. And if you don’t know how, listen to what competent and knowledgeable people say to you.

Quote: Nehist

And the legendary single machine gun of the Wehrmacht is still in service

Something you missed in my words. Probably the fact that the weapon is used in conjunction. Or maybe the Germans are still armed with the Mauser 98k too? Bundle Mauser 98k + MG42 is still in service? No? Well, then read and try to understand what is written there.

[97110]

Quote: Nehist

Mauser 98k is one of the best

I agree, but with a slight refinement. He is one of the best because the carbine. And the mosinka is a rifle. Rifles were banned in Germany at the end of WW1. Pay attention to the "k" in the name of the system. And the word "kurts", which this system is called.

[Alf]

Quote: 97110

lasen, but with a little thinning. He is one of the best because a carbine. And the mosquito is a rifle.

The armament adopted the Mosin rifle, but in reality it was a carbine.

infantry. After the war ended, since 1922, only a dragoon rifle and carbine arr. 1907 [14].

As a result of the modification of the dragoon version of the rifle, as shorter and more convenient, a single model appeared - a rifle of the 1891/1930 model. (GAU Index - 56-B-222).

[Scraptor]

Mosinka:
Barrel length, mm:
800 (infantry),
729 (Dragoon and Sample 1891/30),
510 (carbine)

Mauser 98k:
Barrel length, mm: 600
before shortening: 740

[allian]

Quote: avt

For a second - only TWO armies were massively armed BEFORE the war, self-loading rifles - USA and the USSR. Another thing is that already during the war it was necessary to revive the mass production of the three-ruler because of quite OBJECTIVE production and material and financial difficulties.

I like these tales.
Comrades love to compare the SVT-40 samopal with the Garand rifle. For starters, Garand worked fine. Long and tedious. As befits a normal army weapon.
And the SVT-40 also worked. But not long and not boring at all. Therefore, it was discontinued. We had to fight the gouging of WW1 times, better known as "mosinka".
For reference, "Mosinka" was a rifle with the worst performance characteristics among European 1MV rifles (except for the Italian one, that was worse). But it is very "technological".
The same British Lee-Enfield had a TTX almost at the level of self-loading. This explains the fact that the British did not have self-loading. I didn’t need it.
The Mauser rifle did not have enough stars from the sky and clearly did not reach the British level. But the Germans made a "knight's move" and relied on uniform machine guns. For which in the second half of the war they were specifically punished. And rushed to produce "assault rifle" ersatz. Just to plug the gap in the density of fire. At any price. Even at the cost of reducing the effectiveness of the fire.
I will not describe the Italian 1MV rifle. There is nothing to describe there. By the time of 2MB (1938), the Italians prudently tried to switch from a ridiculous caliber of 6,5 mm to a more normal 7,35 mm. But they could not, the production base did not allow. As a result, they fought mainly with 6,5 mm bullets. And they were obvious outsiders in the rifleman.
Very good in concept was their new rifle. But since it was tied to a specific sleeve, it was not entirely optimal. Almost optimal. But it was conceived very interesting and correct. Perhaps the only European rifle was during the 2MB, in which the cartridge and ballistics were optimized. Also a very good bunch was the handbrake bolt. But all this was produced in small quantities.

[Nagaibak]

avaks] By the way, the production of rifles before the war was discontinued. It was believed that the army was fully equipped with them. And there was a stock of 7 million pieces.
Less to you for writing nonsense.)))

[Volga Cossack]

It’s time to debunk this myth !!!! already exaggerated!

[PPL]

Quote: Volga Cossack

It’s time to debunk this myth !!!! already exaggerated!

What is in the way? Begin, but not unfoundedly, but with facts and links to documents.

[iury.vorgul]

I believe more in my grandfather, who left for the Moscow militia in 41, than this propaganda. Back in 75, he told my father how they, almost unarmed, were forced to attack Moscow and pick up weapons from soldiers who had been killed before. And after the attack, the Andons came from headquarters and were forced to surrender the selected weapons.

And also the bloody SMERSH immediately shot the heroes-criminals who died in hand-to-hand combat and killed hundreds of fascists at the same time and awarded the Field General's wives with the Orders of Victory. I have seen enough Russian films and TV series "about the war". I deeply respect veterans, in 1943 my grandfather died, but I will quote one expression, which I don’t remember: "Nowhere do they lie so much as in the hunt and in the war."

[Kaiten]

Quote: iury.vorgul

And also the bloody SMERSH immediately shot the heroes-criminals who died in hand-to-hand combat and killed hundreds of fascists at the same time and awarded the Field General's wives with the Orders of Victory. I have seen enough Russian films and TV series "about the war". I deeply respect veterans, in 1943 my grandfather died, but I will quote one expression, which I don’t remember: "Nowhere do they lie so much as in the hunt and in the war."

I do not watch Russian films, only old Soviet ones. Russian films are not clear and boring to me.
you read about the fate of the Moscow militia, what was the percentage of losses and if you are a decent person, you will be ashamed of your words.

[Shadowcat]

Oh yes ... Just remind me against whom the militia fought? Against a regular, trained, well trained and snuffed gunpowder army.
Here it would be compared with the 44-45th ... but only their militia or rattled around the porches laughed at the Fausts, and after that I wasn’t me and I just stood there or scattered like a commander was killing current. Ours stood on conscience, went to bayonet attacks - from here and losses.

[Kaiten]

Quote: ShadowCat

Oh yes ... Just remind me against whom the militia fought? Against a regular, trained, well trained and snuffed gunpowder army.
Here it would be compared with the 44-45th ... but only their militia or rattled around the porches laughed at the Fausts, and after that I wasn’t me and I just stood there or scattered like a commander was killing current. Ours stood on conscience, went in bayonet attacks, from here and losses.

Did I argue with that? I am simply against forgetting those who disappeared obscurely in the fields and swamps at the beginning of the war.

[Shadowcat]

You, my friend, a Jew. You already decide how it was, and do not run between smart and beautiful.

[Shadowcat]

You, my friend, a Jew. You already decide how it was, and do not run between smart and beautiful.

[Nehist]

The losses of the Moscow militia are quite justified by the situation at the front! The superiority of the Wehrmacht in artillery, tanks and aircraft. It’s hard to resist all this with small arms.

[iury.vorgul]

Reflecting the enemy’s night attack, at 6.15 on April 24, General Maksimov’s detachment, with the support of 3 tanks and 4 ISU-122, began a breakthrough through Dizu to Enkendorf. Halfway to Diza, the detachment was surrounded and, as it is written in the report of the headquarters of the 7th Guards. the mechanized corps, "most of the personnel who selflessly performed the task in the battle for connecting with the rifle units of the 52 army - died and only 30% made it to Niski - joined our infantry in the morning of 25.4.45" {268}. During the attempt to break out of the encirclement, the following were lost: deputy commander of the corps Hero of the Soviet Union of the Guard Major General Maximov, commander of the 25th Guards. mechanized brigades Hero of the Soviet Union Guard Colonel Dudka, chief of the operational department of the headquarters of the Guard Corps Major Udovitsky, chief of staff of the 57th Guards. Tank brigade guards Major Shestakov, deputy chief of political affairs of the corps of the guard Lieutenant Colonel Savinov and many others. In battles for Weisenberg, the corps lost 983 personnel, 10 T-34 tanks, 1 IS-2, 6 ISU-122, 3 SU-85, 3 BA-64, 6 armored personnel carriers, 20 guns and 12 mortars.

Why should I be ashamed? For the percentage of losses among militias in 1941? I cited a quote from a study by A.V. Isaev about the battles of our troops in April 1945 in the Dresden area. Also fought with one rifle on 3? The Germans were a strong, well-trained, ideologically motivated opponent, and not stupid idiots, and this was the loss. All the more glory to our fathers and grandfathers, who were able to defeat the fascist war machine. And this was their merit - everyone, and the Supreme Commander-in-Chief I.V. Stalin, and marshals, and generals, and unknown soldiers, and aunts in the rear on collective farm fields, and boys at machine tools in workshops, and other millions and millions. Everything was. Including it could be that somewhere there was not enough small arms and in part there really was one rifle for three. Well, it’s necessary to talk about this specifically, and not tell tales, but about how we filled up the Germans with corpses.

[97110]

Quote: Kaiten

you will be ashamed of your words.

Do not touch the history of a foreign country with dirty little hands. We may be ashamed only for your comments. And look carefully at the sunrise. There is your death. Uninviting. And in Russia your militia will not be ashamed, which, of course, wonders heroically before death where the Amer’s help has gone.

[Scraptor]

There are towers ... "False Flag" Operations.

[evil partisan]

1 rifle on the 3rd this myth from the same series as the huge loss of TB-3. In fact, most of the TB-3 survived the defeat of the 41st and were used all over the place as night bombers and transporters, and after the war they still flew to the Civil Air Fleet, mainly in the North. But our anti-Stalinist historians, thank God, were stalled. I only have a question: until Rezun, will it be on the shelves of bookstores ????

[rohl]

What did Rezun do to you?
At the expense of TB-3, do you know how many have made them? Do you know that our country is not the smallest, and at 41m was a little bit more than now? What TB-3 could be not only on the western border, but in the same extreme north? AND! Yes, Rezun is to blame for everything.

[Cossack Ermak]

I read somewhere that the weapons depots were close to the borders. Since it was supposed to fight only on enemy territory. As a result of the blitzkrieg, we were cut off from strategic warehouses. Plus the evacuation of many plants inland. This gave a lack of weapons in the first year of the war.

[avt]

Quote: Cossack Ermak

I read somewhere that the weapons depots were close to the borders.

Somewhere, something like that .....

Quote: Cossack Ermak

. Since it was supposed to fight only on enemy territory

Well, there was such a song, but what? Do you propose to launch songs in large quantities about the fact that everything is gone? But you know WHAT maps did the General Staff order when planning military operations in the Western theater of the proposed war? I mean the eastern border of this planned theater of operations and scale maps for "Vanka platoon", and not globes for Stalin, according to which he was obliged to fight in the understanding of liberal intellectuals. So the General Staff ordered sets of maps up to SMOLENSK REGION INCLUDING !! the fact of a "stupid, bloody tyrant" "who did not prepare and slept through the attack of the Germans"? Or do you think this is Zhukov with a horse horseman "Timoshenko, and he was from the First Horse, secretly under the bed without Stalin's sanction they drew?

Quote: Cossack Ermak

As a result of the blitzkrieg, we were cut off from strategic warehouses. Plus the evacuation of many plants inland. This gave a lack of weapons in the first year of the war.

Quote: Cossack Ermak

As a result of the blitzkrieg, we were cut off from strategic warehouses. Plus the evacuation of many plants inland. This gave a lack of weapons in the first year of the war.

And I agree with this - in general terms - YES. The Germans and I began to do exactly the same from the 1944th and on a smaller scale, the difference was only in the fact that we did not commit atrocities against the civilian population, even after what our grandfathers had passed through the Volga and what we had seen on our land who had been under the Germans.

[evil partisan]

Quote: Cossack Ermak

I read somewhere that the weapons depots were close to the borders. Since it was supposed to fight only on enemy territory.

Rezun. Life-giving ...

[Setrac]

the phrase ,, read somewhere, sets up a frivolous conversation

[97110]

Quote: Cossack Ermak

I read somewhere

In the conditions of such a war, such a movement of the front, do you imagine the transport problem of delivering the right cargo to the right place? I do not even touch the problem of collecting and processing information about what is and where it is needed, what and how much has been produced, is being produced and will be produced. How much will reach Murmansk and from Murmansk to the front. And with the elbow of the left hand you need to steer the evacuation. These are superhuman tasks successfully completed by Stalin’s managers. Compare with what? Allies? Opponents?

[Jääkorppi]

We have a troll Mikhalych, welcome !! Who pays for the posts! Have you earned online Tan battalions? The liberal is recognized - a cry and no arguments !!

[Fox]

I don’t ... I don’t agree with the article! It’s not serious, even Mikhuilkov, (the most brilliant director, what) shot the truthful film "Citadel", where the scoops come with cuttings from shovels ... no, the great director cannot lie. !!
Guys, well, let the glumators of the Victory get out, otherwise they won’t be paid. I feel sorry for them, miserable.

[avt]

Quote: Fox

I don’t ... I don’t agree with the article! It’s not serious, even Mikhuilkov, (the most brilliant director, what) shot the truthful film "Citadel", where the scoops come with cuttings from shovels ... no, the great director cannot lie. !!

YES! And if you also take into account that he broadcast about thousands of kilometers of archive film watched PERSONALLY THEM, then the film is clearly documentary! This is not a fairy tale for you, the mouse ran, waved its tail, the testicle fell and broke! " Now, dad, the creator of the USSR anthem with El Registan, told how he poked Stalin into the cake with his face. Probably even then he foresaw the current "de-Stalinization"

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Mikhalychch

And you fought in those years? .. You and Stalin had a great commander, but he simply shot unnecessary ones. And Voroshilov allowed the Nazis to surround Leningrad, thinking that they would flee when an avalanche of horsemen with drafts would go to tanks, even for himself Stalin removed him from the command of the army.

What cavalry with sabers are bald against tanks? Rezuna read?

[rohl]

Ahaha! Rezun just refuted it =) How funny it is to read stupid and primitive people, to whom pattern thinking replaces logic.

[Cap.Morgan]

A weapon is such a thing that never happens in war.
Often used trophy, especially machine guns.
The entire personnel army in the 41st practically ceased to exist, 2 million were captured. Almost every soldier should have a rifle.
These are all rifles, about 5 million, which belonged to the dead, prisoners, retreated - they disappeared, lost in battle and during the retreat. So at the end of the 41st beginning of the 42nd it was necessary to find another 5-6 million carbines for the newly created army. To produce such an amount, you need at least a year of operation of all arms factories in three shifts. Or it must be assumed that before the war, a stock of 10-12 million rifles was created. Hardly. For example, we see soldiers with Lewis machine guns in the pictures, that is, there was still a shortage of weapons and it was significant.
The first caravans with Lend-Lease products were transported, including Thomson's assault rifles. Why ordered them?
Consequently, the weapons were still desperately lacking.
So explain to me if you have 10000 people in the newly formed division, and your warehouses are empty and you have 5000 rifles, what will you do? Will you go to the front with 5000 soldiers leaving the others behind? No, you will leave with the whole team in the hope that in the frontline strip you will get over something, there will be some sort of warehouse or the long-awaited weapon will still be brought up. Remember what the situation was with the tanks at the end of the 41st.
So most likely this is not a myth.

As for the cavalry, I note that on the territory of the USSR, the warring parties increased the number of cavalry formations. This is primarily due to Russian off-road, a kind of mounted motorized infantry and special forces all rolled into one.

[Nehist]

I will tell you a terrible secret !!! Of the 16000 personnel of the division, the military personnel is about 7000; all the rest are supplies, which by definition are not combatant, but they are also mainly armed with small arms. And under this definition, the guns

[Kaiten]

Quote: Nehist

And under this definition and pistols

Do you think that cooks and storekeepers were armed with pistols?

[Nehist]

Oddly enough, but the Nagan system.

[97110]

Quote: Kaiten

Do you think that cooks and storekeepers were armed with pistols?

They also chopped Czechoslovak tanks with axes.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Kaiten

I believe more in my grandfather, who left for the Moscow militia in 41, than this propaganda. Back in 75, he told my father how they, almost unarmed, were forced to attack Moscow and pick up weapons from soldiers who had been killed before. And after the attack, the Andons came from headquarters and were forced to surrender the selected weapons.

I am very skeptical about "grandfather's memories." As Stanislavsky said - I DO NOT BELIEVE!

[Cap.Morgan]

One out of two. Or you need to rely on memoirs. Or you have to be a participant in the events yourself.
You want to say that grandfather is a veteran with a dozen orders and medals earned by blood, a liar? Or did you personally go on the attack on German machine guns?
Consider what era it was and far from everything could be remembered.

[97110]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

You want to say that grandfather is a veteran with a dozen orders and medals earned by blood, a liar?

My grandfather, a senior lieutenant, a tanker, fought on Matilda. He told me that the "Katyusha" fired shells filled with termite. He saw that after the volley everything was burning there. Is grandfather a liar? Termite shells? Veterans are real people. And they lie like eyewitnesses.

[Alf]

Quote: 97110

My grandfather, a senior lieutenant, a tanker, fought on Matilda. He told me that the "Katyusha" fired shells filled with termite. He saw that after the volley everything was burning there. Is grandfather a liar? Termite shells? Veterans are real people. And they lie like eyewitnesses.

Veterans simply did not know much, hence the confidence.
What is a tank shell? Roughly speaking, a disc dispersed to high speed, equipped with a tiny, if not absent, explosive element. In Katyusha’s shot, by the time the rocket fell, there was still fuel, so it gave an incendiary effect.

[Scraptor]

The fuel was gunpowder, it burns differently. Termite was applied from the first attack:
http://www.chemfive.ru/news/boevoe_primenenie_termitnykh_smesej/2013-11-08-193

[Alf]

Quote: Scraptor

Termite was applied from the first attack:

What does "from the first attack" mean? And what happened in the second attack? It seems that the usual verbiage begins.

[Scraptor]

It seems necessary instead to just go through the link ...

[avt]

Quote: Eugene30

I am very skeptical about "grandfather's memories." As Stanislavsky said - I DO NOT BELIEVE!

It is better to recheck, especially such "chroniclers" as Solzhenitsin, Astafiev. Remember the persistent myth reflected in Soviet cinema - the Germans are ALL entirely with machine guns and you can't raise your head from fire, but we are with a three-line and what can you fight with it. By the way - sensible commanders got the first set of the Moscow militia - they managed to train the personnel as soon as possible at least to a minimum, well, God forbid everyone had moral wills. The Germans clearly figured them out on the front lines and tried to immediately crush the civilians - they didn’t sour the raids and did not break through the defense. And they came out of the subsequent encirclement along Vyazma DECENTLY with fights. Then they were brought into the state of the Red Army.

[vomag]

Here’s the thing 41-42g can be safely called a machine-gun drama for us ... big losses in the composition of the killed and prisoners, as well as the loss of even unopened warehouses in frontier wounds, etc. ... the removal of some models from the production of machine guns and the inability to sharply increase the production of new ones, all this resulted in the fact that already in November machine guns from the civilian + World War I went into battle .... But about Stalingrad ... Gray 43 I don’t believe you! Well, if only your grandfather did not participate in the defense of the tractor factory and directly in the shops did not grapple with the Germans in hand-to-hand fighting ..

[Urri]

Quote: Eugene30

What cavalry with sabers are bald against tanks? Rezuna read?

"Not everything is so simple ..." (tm). My maternal grandfather (not my own, he returned from the front without an arm, and drank without drying out) went on the attack near Rzhev. Just one time. According to him, three chains went on the attack that day. The first one with rifles and boots. The second in boots and without rifles - with pistols, shovels and grenades, and the third - and without boots, and without weapons. Before the battle, they were told directly - take the rifles and boots of the dead. Nobody fiddled or stood on ceremony. The time was like that. My grandfather went on the attack to the height in the third chain, and was seriously wounded by a mine fragment in the depths of the German defense, in the second line of German trenches. At the time of the injury, he already had a rifle and a German carbine in his hands, but did not have boots.
After being wounded, he fought in the Baltic, took Vilnius, where he was re-seriously injured and lived until the end of days. Throughout his war he fought with a kit: a Mosin rifle, a Volmer assault rifle, a Mauser pistol. He especially liked the Mauser, from which he shot by ear. He said that there was no better weapon for battle in the city.

[Alf]

Quote: Urri

Throughout his war he fought with a kit: a Mosin rifle, a Volmer assault rifle, a Mauser pistol. He especially liked the Mauser, from which he shot by ear. He said that there was no better weapon for battle in the city.

I don’t want to offend your grandfather, but, nevertheless, I’ll ask a question. Did he carry three types of weapons on himself right away? This is only in Call of Duty real. And the fathers-commanders did not notice this fact?
The second question is, what is Mauser’s gun so good at when fighting in the city?

[avt]

Quote: Urri

and the third without boots and weapons.

Yeah, not everything is so simple "Well, my wounded and written off and in civilian life did not exchange 60 years of life came home in boots with windings of 44m, well, also, without boots." Moreover, some people preferred kerzachs to good boots - more comfortable, especially in summer.

[Seneca]

Quote: KUOLEMA

With one rifle for three, liberals and resunoids came up with and the training was not bad, but with the command it was stressful in the first stage

Well, I don’t know what kind of liberals have come up with .. But I know from the school desk "one rifle for two" .. "hordes of tanks" "with little blood", etc. So this is a Soviet myth.

[nnz226]

If the divisions of the people's militia were sent to the Mozhaisk line, "where they were engaged in the construction of fortifications and combat training," then why did tens of thousands of militiamen die in the Vyazemsky cauldron ?! The picture doesn't add up ...

[Buffalo]

Do not you catch the difference between the border and the "boiler"?

[Nagaibak]

= nnz226 "If the divisions of the people's militia were sent to the Mozhaisk line," where they were engaged in the construction of fortifications and combat training, "then why tens of thousands of militiamen died in the Vyazemsky cauldron ?! The picture does not add up ...."
And you read how many formations of the whole BOTTOM were. And everything will become clear to you.

[Vasily Krylov]

I already wrote on these pages that 9 people fought in our family, four did not return. There are many things in family memories of that time, including a shortage of weapons, etc., but surrounded (Lyubech, 1943, autumn ). The front stretched from the White to the Black Seas, perhaps somewhere there was a shortage, but rather not weapons, but normal leaders. The situation could not be unambiguous. I personally knew many front-line soldiers, but I did not hear about it from one of them.

[Buffalo]

I would like to know which year goes to the veteran of the Great Patriotic War, Daniil Ivanov, who so confidently describes the events of bygone days, as if he only saw it yesterday. Well, you didn’t miss anything, not even the rudimentary transport and logistics system of the USSR, which did not allow delivering existing weapons to the front line on time.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

One out of two. Or you need to rely on memoirs. Or you have to be a participant in the events yourself.
You want to say that grandfather is a veteran with a dozen orders and medals earned by blood, a liar? Or did you personally go on the attack on German machine guns?
Consider what era it was and far from everything could be remembered.

Of course, a memoir is good. But if you haven't noticed, I put the word memory in quotes. Simply because in forum disputes, many opponents, having no reason in their hearts, refer to the "memories" of their ancestors, which often turn out to be just statements for a catchphrase. I personally did not communicate with his grandfather, and to believe the "words" of the grandfather, already said to the father and then to him, this is excuse me, is silly. There are still no documentary and other sources talking about sending "practically unarmed" people into battle. I also have a lot of ancestors who fought and worked for 16 hours in the rear ..... Situations were different, and it is impossible to draw up some general conclusions on their basis.

[Thor]

In fact, the topic of "Myths" will be discussed forever, and the myths "hello," about any side of the war! Further it would be possible to disassemble the myth that all Germans were with "Schmeisers" !!!

[PROHOJIY]

You are aiming at the "holy"!
Every viewer knows that Germans do not exist without Schmeisers. And also the charter forbade them to go on the attack without rolling up their sleeves to the elbow ...

[allian]

Quote: PROHOJIY

that the Germans do not exist without Schmeisers

This is MP-40, not Schmeisers

[PROHOJIY]

Because the smiley put that in the course and about 38 and about 40 MP. And also about the fact that any self-propelled gun at the viewer is called Ferdinand.
For understanding again the mug -

[allian]

Now I understand.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Urri

Quote: Eugene30

What cavalry with sabers are bald against tanks? Rezuna read?

"Not everything is so simple ..." (tm). My maternal grandfather (not my own, he returned from the front without an arm, and drank without drying out) went on the attack near Rzhev. Just one time. According to him, three chains went on the attack that day. The first one with rifles and boots. The second in boots and without rifles - with pistols, shovels and grenades, and the third - and without boots, and without weapons. Before the battle, they were told directly - take the rifles and boots of the dead. Nobody fiddled or stood on ceremony. The time was like that. My grandfather went on the attack to the height in the third chain, and was seriously wounded by a mine fragment in the depths of the German defense, in the second line of German trenches. At the time of the injury, he already had a rifle and a German carbine in his hands, but did not have boots.
After being wounded, he fought in the Baltic, took Vilnius, where he was re-seriously injured and lived until the end of days. Throughout his war he fought with a kit: a Mosin rifle, a Volmer assault rifle, a Mauser pistol. He especially liked the Mauser, from which he shot by ear. He said that there was no better weapon for battle in the city.

With all due respect to your grandfather, I’ll say: One rifle for three is MYTH.
Another thing is that in war situations are different. Say, the Germans cut off the supply routes, bombed the weapons warehouse, took the defenders into the ring, etc. It was not always possible to get replenishment and ammunition. Which, perhaps, caused the command to throw a certain number of soldiers of the second and third echelons at one or another enemy defense unit in order to achieve any improvements. But the soldier sees the war from his trench, the real tactical situation is hidden from him, therefore, to draw conclusions about one rifle for three and other nonsense is not worth it.

[NGK]

Quote: DesToeR

Quote: avt
And after how long, France, surrendered, without repression with the victorious marshals of the First World and Allied British Army, packed with modern equipment, surrendered?
France did not give up, France surrendered. Moreover, it is completely thought out and realized. The high French military command surrendered. Which refused to shed the blood of the French for the interests of the Anglo-Saxons. It was a very difficult and responsible political decision. But among the French, people capable of accepting him were found.

Yes, just like that, the French did not want to shed blood for the Anglo-Saxons, but they gladly shed their blood for the Germans. The number of French killed in the ranks of the Wehrmacht and SS on the Eastern Front far exceeds the number of French killed in the war with Germany. I read somewhere that the youngest soldier of the Wehrmacht was a Frenchman and the SS Charlemagne division in Berlin fought to the last soldier. And what were the French-"SS men doing in the occupied territories in Russia? Do not stand by the French when signing the surrender - Keitel was right!"

[allian]

Quote: NGK

The French were not standing on the side when signing the surrender - Keitel was right!

But Dzhugashvili, well, the one who was the most important among the allies, as the Bolsheviks claimed, did not argue with the signing of the surrender of Germany by the French. I had no such right. Too shallow to have an opinion. And Germany (and all of Europe) was then derailed not for three, but for four. Cleverly, the share of the USSR decreased from 1/3 to 1/4. That was how he was, this "main" member of the coalition. Who, as it were, did everything himself.
What, then, was so generously shared in prey? This is more like hired work. For a small fraction.

[vomag]

Woooo business !!then Derbanili not for three, but for fourDid I miss something in the Europe section? and who was the fourth at the Tehran Yalta and Potsdam Conference ?? ... Vangyu the new alternative historian is almost ready allian time to sit down for your dissertation ..... Well, or start on friendly terms with friends ....

[PROHOJIY]

Quote: wicked partisan

I only have a question: until Rezun, will it be on the shelves of bookstores ????

The defector writes curly, so they still read it. After all, our military history books are mostly written in kondovy language. Only the truly interested can master. And Rezun is easy to read and everything is clear. And then you can talk intelligently about the "reasons for the defeat." So here, perhaps two troubles - poorly taught at school to work with historical literature and the inability of our historians to write for the general reader.

[Kaiten]

About war

Affiliate.

Valery Petrovich - head of a large security office. But due to the specifics of the business, the guys are guarding it not with some complex objects, but simply with large areas that are of little interest to anyone because there is nothing to drag. But the people in the company for 1000 people. The contingent is appropriate, consisting mainly of young boys without a strong desire for a steep career growth (at best), and at worst, generally without a desire for anything other than silence and moonshine.
Mid-level managers were different - but for the most part they differed from ordinary guards only in their presence of brains and responsibility.
The top leadership, except for Valery Petrovich, consisted of retired security officials and had their own views on life often quite specific, which, however, allowed to solve most of the problems that appeared.
Valery Petrovich himself, formerly an office colonel, lived a very quiet life as a hereditary security official.

But somehow, sitting in a bathhouse with the heads of departments and deputies, he had a tough argument about the Second World War. Grandfather Valery Petrovich died, like his two brothers, even before the Battle of Stalingrad.
The opinions of the audience were divided, and the discussion began to acquire a very intense character.
The arguments were classic - you can read them by going to any historical forum of the present time.

And then Valery Petrovich took the floor.
"Dear employees! I just thought and realized that we just need to unite the forces of our team. Moreover, the Dandelion company, where almost half of our personnel work, did not pay us and in order to prevent such actions, we are day we will partially remove our people from its facilities. Also, everyone who is not on duty will also join us. I will inform you about the rest the day before. Dress code - for a camping trip. "

[Kaiten]

And then a great day came.
Valery Petrovich did not even say anything to his first deputy, for everything should be honest.

Arriving at the place, personnel in the amount of almost 700 people (1-2 battalions depending on the time and type of troops) saw a large field in front of him, fenced with flags.

Along the edges of the field were people with plastic shields and helmets.

Then, to all their joy, everyone was given a uniform for playing paintball and personal weapons.
In addition to personal, the middle management was given a dozen wonders of paintball equipment such as mortars and machine guns.
Moreover - 2 leaders even got a personal minitank :)



And when the boxes with grenades were put in front of the ordinary staff, then euphoria began like on New Year's Eve.

When the general euphoria of what was happening subsided - Valery Petrovich asked the leaders
build personnel platoon and went out in front of the formation with a megaphone in his hands.

"Dear employees, today you personally, one might say on your own skin, will learn what the Second World War is. Moreover, you will have a lighter version - because you, my dears, will not be bombed from the air by airplanes and will not be fired by artillery.

Before you is a field. In the middle of the field, a line is drawn on the grass with paint. All who do not cross this line 15 minutes after the start of the battle will be dismissed from the company.

The rules are monitored by a third-party organization that I specifically hired, which even your leaders did not know about.

Entering into a dispute with judges is not permitted.

At the end of the field - 2 bunkers and 2 snipers.

Six people are playing against you. You are almost 700 here.

Employees start to laugh in a voice.

I repeat, for those who have not heard or did not believe - SIX people are playing against you, and you are seven hundred.

You have one and a half dozen machine guns and mortars and two tanks. They have only 2 machine guns and personal weapons.

The euphoria is not appeasing.

Now, one selected person from each platoon will come with me and look at these people. He will remember in person that later there would be no indignation on the topic that someone had deceived someone.

And now about the pleasant and unpleasant.

My word is always fulfilled and everyone knows that (in the company it was an iron rule, Valery Petrovich punished and benefited with lavish generosity and cruelty, respectively).

About the dismissal of those who do not cross after 15 minutes the line marked with paint, I wrote.
Understand the whistle, it will be given a minute before the time expires.

Those who get paint, regardless of the place of entry, leave the battle, getting up and IMMEDIATELY going in the opposite direction without weapons. The weapon remains on the ground in the place where it hit you.

A person who continues to move after getting into it, and is seen behind it by a judge, quits regardless of position.


And now the main thing:

In an hour, the battle will be over.

- Those who do not get paint will receive 3 full salaries and an extraordinary 2-week paid vacation.
Ovation in the team.

Before the bunkers there is a line outlined with paint, meaning a 5-meter line.

Those who cross it will receive a six-month salary and a month of vacation at the expense of the company.

Ovation in the team is growing.

[Kaiten]

And now, the main thing.

Anyone who enters the premises of the bunker receives a bonus in the form of an annual salary and two months of paid vacation with the whole family in my personal villa in Spain.

The ovations after this phrase were worthy of the Party Congress in its best years ...

And now, the chiefs who are appointed platoon commanders, under the direction of my deputies, will develop a battle strategy, and for now you can shoot your personal weapons on targets.

By the way, lastly, I note that almost all those present had two years of service in the army, and are good at handling weapons, as well as in the course of military discipline.
Your grandfathers who fought at the beginning of the Second World War did not have all this.

I'm done, get started. "


Then there was euphoria, laughter, free moonshine, gunfire and plan development.

The selected group examined the fortifications on the other side of the field, and seeing the squelks who will protect all this, brought their colleagues even more joy.

And then there was a FIGHT.

You can read about him in a large amount of historical literature about the same Rzhev.

Actually - nothing new.

I emphasize once again that the guys were not bombed from the air, there were no mines and artillery. Lafa.


But the results were very interesting:

Of the entire personnel, less than 15 people remained "alive" in an hour. HALF INSERT.

Most of them hid behind the tanks, the commanders of which were killed in the first place, and lay there on top of each other like herrings, pushing out on the field all who tried to get into it, regardless of the ranks.

There were about 20 dismissals due to conflicts with judges, of which the couple even got a soup with a promise "to kill all the relatives."

NOBODY reached the Bunkers.

One employee who had fought in Chechnya before and worked at a separate facility, managed to cross the 5-meter line at the bunker, but was immediately killed.


Loss of the defenders - ONE WOUNDED IN THE HAND OF A SNIPER.

By the way, the mood of the "winning side" was extremely bad - they swore to play more with such a scenario.


The deputies of Valery Petrovich no longer entered into a discussion on the Great Patriotic War with him.

[Pissarro]

crap is complete. Of the 700 conscripted foreheads operating against 6 snipers in an open field, not one of the improper ones to put an elementary smokescreen on, under whose cover to add up to the bunkers? During World War II, fumes were successfully used just in such cases.

[Timyr]

It means that my grandfather was killed when he stormed German positions, as part of his company when crossing the Desna and in many other cases when attacking the German defense. But he did not know about it and survived. Well, take a dull padded jacket from him.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: Kaiten

Of the entire personnel, less than 15 people remained "alive" in an hour. HALF INSERT.

I confirm - there are many examples of this: when trying to break through the Neva in an offensive near Leningrad, the German battalion in fortified positions and a 105 mm howitzer battery held back an order of magnitude greater forces.
Monstrous losses - MG-43 sewing machines are a terrible thing.

Near Rostov, the equestrian division of 1000 people attacks the German battery of field cannons, which is covered by 2 machine guns and an infantry platoon — it attacks from the forest and it is necessary to overcome 800 meters in winter in the snow during a gallop. Of the 1000 people, no one rode. Half an hour later, a new division of 1000 people - repeats a suicide attack on the battery in the forehead - the same result.

What is this example about: the life of a platoon commander in the Soviet army in the Second World War - 1 battle, the life of a company - 2-3 battles. If the battalion commander survived 1 month, he was considered a lucky and experienced commander. They did not have time to accumulate the experience of the command, the lack of competent commanders led to unjustified losses.
A similar thing happened in the German troops when freshly formed units without combat experience were thrown into battle. But extremely rare.
The basis of the German army was built on experienced non-commissioned officers, and the quality of German troops was declining towards the end of the war, with the inability to make up for losses by experienced command personnel. At that time, there was a qualitative increase in the armament and experience of command in the Soviet army.

If a person survived 2-3 battles, he could already navigate the battlefield and could find shelter and his life was more dependent on random luck.
Of those who started fighting in 1941, by 1945, less than 3% remained - except for the senior command personnel, rear officers and political officers, who did not show their heads on the front line during active actions, but wrote beautiful books after the war about their "heroism" in the war.

as an example: Mikhin, Petr Alekseevich
"Gunners, Stalin gave the order!"
went through the war from Rzhev to Prague, in Mongolia and China. He commanded a platoon, a battery, a division. He was wounded three times and shell-shocked many times.
By the way, it was this man who took the language on the eve of the Battle of Kursk.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/mihin_pa/index.html

[Resident007]

Quote: tolian

Resident, you have a misunderstanding with the definition "everything is in order".

What are you talking about? And, you probably took the word "adjusted" as from the word "screw up", no dear, I meant the word "adjusted", ie "to adjust" means to establish correct, depending on the combat situation, operational and tactical decisions of the command personnel with active combat-ready units of the Red Army, which had weapons and ammunition, well, not everything, ideally, of course ... but I have already written about this above

[Nehist]

Not enough weapons was a fact! But she was on separate sites in separate units. The myth of mass was invented in the time of Khrushchev.

[Strashila]

There are a lot of myths generated during the time of Khrushchev, about a sudden attack ... about thousands of planes destroyed at airfields ... about one rifle for three, then it was clear why, in order to confirm the personality cult of Stalin and blame all the blunders on one person.
Only a real story refutes it all, that's why they won.

[Resident007]

According to some comments, it turns out that the poorly armed, dirty, dull, unkempt, ne-shaved, alkash, rapists, who threw birches and their tails and their corpses with rayuchs, won? Of course, I exaggerated somewhere, but by and large in the media this is slipping ... And "some" former republics take it at face value .. I would like to say "ARE YOU IN YOUR MIND?" The Red Army is an exemplary example of discipline for all branches of the army and all ranks of soldiers and officers, especially in wartime. There were cases, but they are negligible (although there are such cases in all armies of the world). THE MORE the appearance and behavior, discipline of the soldiers and officers who liberated Europe were on a special account .. "the image of the Soviet warrior" was valiant, noble, courageous, always looking according to the charter (well, maybe, if just from a battle). All the peoples of Europe, where the Red Army was, remember their humanity and nobility, help and kindness. (Again, there were cases, but according to the laws of wartime, they were severely punished, they were scanty). And the henchmen Zpapda and the United States after the war perverted the truth, we were already invaders, ungrateful dogs .. Bismarck correctly said: "The Russians always come back for their money ..."

[shisha321]

One nuance at the expense of generals. It seems to me that the point is not that someone was shot or, on the contrary, was not finished off on time. And in the first and second worlds in the Russian army at the beginning of wars there were always not generals, but careerists, administrators of peacetime. In peacetime, commanders do not like power; they are too independent, independent, stubborn. They interfere with the calm flow of life standing at the helm. They require some reforms, innovations, argue with the authorities. Remember Suvorov, Skobelev, Makarov, etc. Nothing has changed for the second world war.

[Timyr]

This is such garbage in any army in the world. In peacetime, careerists climb over. In wartime, careerists scum and have to put those who know how to fight.

[Pissarro]

Do you know a way to raise a commander in the absence of war? Share it

[Scraptor]

I share - There are many ways how to weed out the lack of class and careerists, then the generals will grow up even in peacetime.

[Pissarro]

empty words. You can be more specific

[Scraptor]

No, you can’t ... (it will hurt your career).

[Timyr]

Unfortunately, there is no such way. Americans seem to have come up with. But nifiga did not work. It turns out to wage a war against the Papuans is one thing, and against an equal opponent is another

[Filxnumx]

Quote: avt

Quote: allian

? Didn’t execute any orders?

Fulfilled, completely fulfilled the orders of the one who appointed him and who created the whole Red Army and supervised Trotsky.

And explain to me, my dear friend, where in the Red Army did you see one-man command as the principle of leading the troops? Who would allow Judushka to promote "his" people without the consent and approval of the party bodies? And how would you act in the place of the "executioner Tukh", knowing that you will not be in demand for the number of killed opponents of the Soviet power, but for the delay in the military operation and the loss of your troops, they may ask so that it will not seem like little.

[Scraptor]

Judas led them in fact, the demand from the executioners was for a lack of quantity

[Yasondinalt]

They heard about one rifle for three long before any rollers there. In those days, they didn’t even know about the commercials. The usual trampling into the mud of those years, from the series - Stalin is a tyrant, a gulag and other noodles on the ears!

[Atigay]

The neighbor, Tursun Omarovich Salibaev, went through the whole war. He was talking about one rifle for the 5th soldiers. It was in their part that was so. It is not necessary to whitewash history, rewrite, powder. Heroism was, who denies, there were supply errors, there was also a terrible situation on the fronts. War.

[Nagaibak]

Atygay "Neighbor, Tursun Omarovich Salibayev, went through the whole war. He just talked about one rifle for 5 soldiers. It was in their unit that it was."
That's it in their part. And not in all parts. And then it turns out the whole war with bricks in their hands won.

[Scraptor]

With Molotov cocktails ...

[Predator]

Quote: derik1970

you were there? were at the front? fought? liberals have you come up with everything? ... I have a great-grandfather from the Nazi concentration camp returned home in 1945, Thank God he still lived after captivity. I heard from him that there used to be one rifle for three or even not at all ... sit here to assent ... another question, who are you or the liberals rewriting the story ... take off the pink glasses ... the war is hard, dirty work, there were a lot of things, unfortunately there are a lot of similar opuses such as expert analysis ... not everything was written in the documents .. .

I have not been there ..... But I’ve been doing search work for 12 years and I can say with confidence that by 1941. ALL of the Red Army fighters we found had personal small arms, grenades and ammunition. So there’s no need to lie. Once again I say that there were separate facts, but separate facts. You don’t have to go far, in 1985. I went out with my reconnaissance platoon to the location of the 116th DSB training center (Kandahar district) and an hour later Mohmed’s spirits came out there, so there were 10 AKMs and 2 PKKs for the whole training and that this training could have been without us ?! So now that the whole CA is from 1 ran for three automatically?

[Scraptor]

Not all, but some parts of the militia, and from 1 to 10, especially after the German breakthrough near Smolensk.

[Predator]

What a breakthrough is it near Smolensk ?! So in Smolensk all the militia (even a whole battalion) was provided with small arms for all 120%, including 853 machine guns for 328 soldiers! And it survived the battle with a whole motorized division for more than a day!

[Scraptor]

Quote: Predator

What is a breakthrough near Smolensk ?!

Why such questions? Wasn't he occupied?
The allegedly Moscow militia, which plugged a hole left over from the Smolensk militia with all its machine guns ... which Moscow did not hit.
By the way, yes -

http://smol1941.narod.ru/divnaropolh.htm
photo from the title of the article, but is it written there?

[Scraptor]

Although, no - it is written, only about "one rifle for two."

[Filxnumx]

[quote = ShadowCat] Why did France merge in a month? Why did England merge?
What if France were the size of the European part of the USSR? Has it merged in 4 months? Calculate the average rate of the Wehrmacht's offensive in the 1940 campaign ("triumphal march across Europe" - 15 - 20 km per day) and in 1941 ("fierce battles for every inch of land" - 40 - 50 km per day). After France, the German aircraft industry had to restore the production of bombers and dive bombers due to their significant loss. Due to the more than frivolous French policy of military development and a completely idiotic system of basing and technical support of aviation, no more than 1/3 of all combat-ready fighters could be on the front line at a time, and the tactics of battle were inferior to the German ones. And who told you that England has merged? Have you read the act of her surrender to Germany? Of course, if the Wehrmacht landed on the island, it would be so (which I personally would be incredibly happy). But the question is: would Hitler have had enough strength to attack the USSR after this victory? And where is the probability that the Red Army would have stood near Berlin not in April 1945, but already at the end of 1941?

[Setrac]

France has North Africa, they had where to retreat.

[97110]

The militia, consisting of former military and civilians, was armed by force of necessity with berdanks

Author, have mercy! Berdan rifles? Or did Alfred Russell in his book "On the Roads of War" use the Russian word "berdanka" because of his kondo Russianness? Completely forgetting that we are talking about the battle for ENGLAND. In the RI in 1 MV, these rifles were no longer used. I could be wrong. The now exposed Bolsheviks accused the tsars of the regime of selling to individuals disarmed rifles. From that, they say, and there was a terrible rifle hunger. Or is it true that rifles of the Berdan system were sold to England due to obsolescence and withdrawal from service? Abaldet!

[Uncle Joe]

There is a stable legend that at the beginning of the war our army fought “with one rifle for three”.

And each legend has a real, but thoroughly crafted, basis.

Kersnovsky, Anton Antonovich "History of the Russian Army" http://militera.lib.ru/h/kersnovsky1/15a.html

From August 1914 to December 1915, 6 people were called up. They turned 290 rifles - one rifle for four people. The masses of unarmed reinforcements thrown to the front in 000 only reduced the combat effectiveness of the army, immensely increasing its bloody losses and enemy trophies.

In the fall of 1915, in the rear units one rifle fell on ten soldiers, and on the front - for two. The situation on the Northern and Western fronts was especially bad, as they suffered the most severe losses during the retreat. In the IX Army Corps of the 3rd Army, for example, rifles had only the first battalions of regiments. In January 1916, according to Headquarters, in the armies of the Western Front, out of 754 combatant 000 — more than a third of all soldiers — were unarmed. We can safely assume that out of a total of 268 fighters, only about 000 were armed. And since each of the 1 Austro-Germans counted by General Alekseev [732] had a rifle or carbine, it should be assumed that the number of “bayonets” in the infantry and in the enemy was the same, with the opponents doubled in light and quadruple - in heavy artillery.

In total, in the Russian army in the second year of the war, there were 35 (!) Various systems of rifles and carbines. There were regiments and even companies where two, three, or even four different samples were in service.

In September, the rearmament of the infantry of the Northern Front with Japanese rifles began, which lasted until the spring of 1916 (the three-line freedmen were transferred to the Western Front). The hastily issued instruction for firing from Japanese rifles made gross errors, with the correction of which the Headquarters was in no hurry. The sights of these rifles were cut in Japanese measures and in Japanese numbers. Amendments to the careless instruction, drawn up in a timely manner, were put “under the cloth” in the Headquarters. Throughout the winter of 1915/16, our Northern Front fired into the air, over the heads of the enemy ...

[Cat man null]

Quote: Uncle Joe

And each legend has a real, but thoroughly crafted, basis

Of course. Only in the article is it about 1941. And not about

Quote: Uncle Joe

winter 1915/16

[Uncle Joe]

Quote: Cat Man Null

Only in the article speech

But I warned you that cerebrum сtenocephalides felis may affect you badly

Turn on your cerebrum and answer yourself - where did the shnyag come from about one rifle.

[Scraptor]

Quote: iury.vorgul

I deeply respect veterans ... but I’ll give you one expression I don’t remember: "Nowhere do they lie so much as in the hunt and in the war."

You don’t respect, otherwise you wouldn’t write that. You only respect the bloody one ... that's why he dragged him here for some reason, although this quote is from the "other side".

[Cat man null]

Quote: Uncle Joe

where did the shnyaga come from about one rifle

Substitution of the subject of discussion - a typical trick .. for troll

The question was: is it true that at the beginning of World War II, three soldiers had one rifle. The correct answer is no, that’s not true.

Uncle Joe, you yourself came up with a question, and you answered it yourself.

Growing in front of your eyes, keep it up!

[Uncle Joe]

Quote: Cat Man Null

Substitution of the subject of discussion - a typical trick .. for troll

Why are you replacing it?

The question was: is it true that at the beginning of World War II, three soldiers had one rifle. The correct answer is no, this is not true.

The question sounded different, and the answer you provided is not correct, but yours.

The article speaks of a "stable legend", and each legend is based on real events, which I revealed (when the time frame was deliberately shifted, and the reality of WWI was artificially sewn to the Second World War)

If you do not understand this, then I recommend you once again to rid your cerebrum of ctenocephalides felis.
Although it seems to me that you understand everything, but with excitement worthy of a better application, you are engaged in primitive trolling, which you constantly accuse me of.

[rassom]

Alexei Isaev talks about this well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CjJOsc3OGY
I advise everyone to watch his program. All based on real facts and documents. Everything is calm and laid out on the shelves.

[_KM_]

My grandfather fought in the militia near Moscow. More precisely, he fought, and his brothers, and nephews, and only my grandfather survived. He told me that there was indeed tension with rifles and ammunition, and they went to the front, he said, short-armed. Surely there were rifles in warehouses or somewhere. Perhaps they were even waiting for them ... but it did not work out.

[Army soldier2]

Quote: Uncle Joe

Quote: Cat Man Null

Substitution of the subject of discussion - a typical trick .. for troll

Why are you replacing it?

The question was: is it true that at the beginning of World War II, three soldiers had one rifle. The correct answer is no, this is not true.

The question sounded different, and the answer you provided is not correct, but yours.

The article speaks of a "stable legend", and each legend is based on real events, which I revealed (when the time frame was deliberately shifted, and the reality of WWI was artificially sewn to the Second World War)

If you do not understand this, then I recommend you once again to rid your cerebrum of ctenocephalides felis.
Although it seems to me that you understand everything, but with excitement worthy of a better application, you are engaged in primitive trolling, which you constantly accuse me of.

Well done Uncle Joe! For 170 days of 1700 comments. There is practically no information and thoughts. Some estimates to opponents. If these are not signs of troll, then what is it?

[DimerVladimer]

False article.
My grandfather said that in 1941 near Smolensk their regiment was thrown into battle - one for three and 5 rounds. He did not get a rifle in the top three fighters.
The Germans defeated their regiment in 15 minutes and shot unarmed soldiers in an open field.
Grandfather was captured and in 1945 was sent to 10 years of camp in Arkhangelsk.
No need to misinterpret the truth about the Great Patriotic War!