Military Review

Poroshenko announced that "irresponsible steps" of Russia in Syria lead to the third world war

88
The President of Ukraine continues to vigorously celebrate the transfer of local elections by 2016 to the DPR and LPR authorities. At the same time, Poroshenko comments on the state of affairs in the southeast, stating that the life of every Ukrainian (“Ukrainian soldier”) for him is “of tremendous value”. If “enormous value”, then, apparently, Poroshenko’s system of values ​​failed at the time, and he gave the order to continue the punitive operation against the Ukrainian citizens of Donbass ... Now Poroshenko, commenting on the generally observed truce in the region, writes (Facebook)


When they report to me that there are no 200-x, 300-x - this is a great achievement.

This is the result of negotiations in New York and Paris, where they managed to stop the hot phase of the conflict.
By deciding on the further withdrawal of weapons, we were convinced that for the first time the OSCE had the opportunity to perform its special monitoring functions.

Every life of a Ukrainian warrior is the highest value for me. On the conscience of the aggressor more than 8 thousand lives of Ukrainian citizens, and the time will come - with these lists the aggressor will knock on the gates of hell.


Poroshenko announced that "irresponsible steps" of Russia in Syria lead to the third world war


It turns out that the “Russian aggression” in the Donbass is not the only “aggression” that Poroshenko cares about. Now attention ukroprezidenta spreads to Syria.

Thus, speaking to the students of the military institute of Kiev Shevchenko University, Poroshenko said that Russia is approaching a third world war with a military operation in Syria. Quote RIA News:

We must understand what the aggression of the Russian Federation in seemingly distant Syria means for each of us and how far these steps, absolutely irresponsible, brought us closer to the third world (war).


It turns out that the fight against international terrorism Poroshenko, like his overseas patrons, calls "irresponsible steps." And what door after such statements will Petr Alekseevich himself knock on? ..
Photos used:
https://www.facebook.com/petroporoshenko
88 comments
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  1. GRDS
    GRDS 7 October 2015 13: 52 New
    +31
    You are all "not clean" - said the pig and fell into the mud!
    1. Svyatogor
      Svyatogor 7 October 2015 13: 55 New
      +21
      He knows international politics like a pig in oranges.
      1. Sasha 19871987
        Sasha 19871987 7 October 2015 14: 02 New
        +11
        where are we without the statements of Svintus-grandiose)))
        1. KazaK Bo
          KazaK Bo 7 October 2015 14: 17 New
          +7
          Sasha 19871987
          where are we without the statements of Svintus-grandiose)))

          Grandioseus, speak? Late for this assessment ... he has long considered himself a PEACEKEEPER OF THE WORLD SCALE .. AT LEVEL OF THE NOBEL PRIZE WORLD OBAMUZHKA! And in the evening, at the end of the working day ... and asbestos on weekends - he has a level and higher - MACEDONIAN ... AND NAPOLEON! You listen to him, so you immediately begin to understand that it is HE, POROSENKO, FORCED MERKEL, OLAND, AND ESPECIALLY V. Putin TO THE WORLD! Why not a candidate for new laureates! ... Schnobel Prize!
          Petruha will go far if psychiatrists don’t remember what they get the money for and don’t give him a tribune, but already in ward No. 6!
          1. hrych
            hrych 7 October 2015 23: 32 New
            0

            ---------------------------------
      2. Svyatogor
        Svyatogor 7 October 2015 14: 02 New
        +25
        Here is his calling.
        1. JonnyT
          JonnyT 7 October 2015 15: 15 New
          +16
          But what Ukrainians themselves think about Obama’s parashenka and the operation in Syria laughing :
          1. Dr. Bormental
            Dr. Bormental 7 October 2015 15: 58 New
            +7
            I haven’t laughed like that for a long time, thanks))) smile
          2. Dr. Bormental
            Dr. Bormental 7 October 2015 15: 58 New
            0
            I haven’t laughed like that for a long time, thanks))) smile
          3. Kovlad
            Kovlad 7 October 2015 16: 17 New
            +3
            Just CLASS !!! You can’t imagine such a thing!
          4. 33 Watcher
            33 Watcher 7 October 2015 16: 53 New
            +3
            And I look at the intellectual level of the population there is really lame.
          5. alexs1833
            alexs1833 7 October 2015 17: 21 New
            +4
            ending five points laughing
      3. General Frost
        General Frost 7 October 2015 14: 04 New
        +20
        Petya, smart people said --- don’t lower the degree, with a “squirrel” it is extremely dangerous even for the spinal cord hi Sorry for the pork laughing laughing
      4. Roman1970
        Roman1970 7 October 2015 14: 08 New
        +4
        Quote: Svyatogor
        He knows international politics like a pig in oranges.

        Yes, he understands everything, just “fool” includes, that's all ...
        1. Svyatogor
          Svyatogor 7 October 2015 14: 22 New
          +4
          In order to turn on the "fool" in a smart way, you also need a mind, otherwise, in truth, they will take for a fool
      5. INVESTOR
        INVESTOR 7 October 2015 14: 19 New
        +4
        Moron, fanatics of saloids are cut like kafirof, without a bazaar, if they come to the outskirts you will not find it ..
      6. ivan bogomolov
        ivan bogomolov 7 October 2015 14: 27 New
        +3
        Not ... just in addition to the hare (Yatsenyuk), he had another adviser friend, (PROTEIN).
      7. aleks 62 next
        aleks 62 next 7 October 2015 15: 25 New
        +1
        .... He understands international politics like a pig in oranges ...

        .... And it is a pig .... It was funny to look at his snout when Merkel and Oland poked him with his snout (at the time they were going to the "Norman Four") ...
    2. MIKHAN
      MIKHAN 7 October 2015 13: 56 New
      +27
      Well Waltzman play some more ..? bully Trumps are not all laid out ......))) Card debt is sacred! Little time is left ...
      1. Sid.74
        Sid.74 7 October 2015 13: 59 New
        +25
        We must understand what the aggression of the Russian Federation in seemingly distant Syria means for each of us and how far these steps, absolutely irresponsible, brought us closer to the third world (war).

        What?belay Pyotr Alekseich - tied up in the morning to lay the collar, it is more useless for the president of the Vilna state of Ukraine to come like a train bum in a feverish delirium!laughing
        1. kot28.ru
          kot28.ru 7 October 2015 14: 23 New
          +5
          Poporoshenko lives in an exclusive universe invented by the naglosaks just on the side of history where Napoleon and Hitler, Swedes and Psheks were hi ! So let him read the book to the end, the choice is small, sit down or shoot yourself, although I would give it in Donbass to the mothers of killed children alive creature! am am am
    3. sever.56
      sever.56 7 October 2015 14: 02 New
      +24
      http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/008/ktsl693.png
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 7 October 2015 14: 10 New
        +7
        And what door after such statements does Peter Alekseevich himself knock on ?.

        At the door of ward number 6, shouting "Take off your shirt, scum!" yes
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. Reserve officer
      Reserve officer 7 October 2015 14: 08 New
      +6
      "Poroshenko, like his overseas patrons, calls the fight against international terrorism" irresponsible steps. "

      None of Porshenko’s speeches was delivered by him independently, without coordination with the State Department. He is just a doll, as everyone has long understood. But not "good Petrushka", but from the Hollywood horror series. It was like that. That's what it is called - "Dolls".
      1. AlexTires
        AlexTires 7 October 2015 14: 10 New
        +4
        A strange company there, an adviser to the minister licks the ass of the terrorists, this one calls the anti-terrorist organization civilians who would have cut off his head without problems .... Chambers No. 6!
      2. Rostov Papa
        Rostov Papa 7 October 2015 14: 12 New
        +5
        Why was Pyotr Alekseevich so excited that he had a small candy factory in Palmyra?
    6. marlin1203
      marlin1203 7 October 2015 14: 11 New
      +1
      When will he be knocked on the door of the cell with an evening baland ?! am
    7. Asadullah
      Asadullah 7 October 2015 15: 01 New
      +4
      You are all "not clean" - said the pig and fell into the mud!


      Surprisingly, with the word Poroshenko, associations with a pig come to mind, probably in the hundreds of millions ....
    8. Rezident007
      Rezident007 7 October 2015 23: 31 New
      +1
      Poroshenko reminds me of the character "popandopulo" from the movie "Wedding in the Robin" .. and the whole plot of the film reflects the current state of Ukraine ..)) You can even put the goblin translation on this film into modern events in Ukraine ..))
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Makarov
    Makarov 7 October 2015 13: 53 New
    +7
    Yes, he was drunk .... all the same, such a day ... celebrates!)))
    1. kil 31
      kil 31 7 October 2015 13: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: Makarov
      Yes, he was drunk .... all the same, such a day ... celebrates!)))

      Probably today again his drunken guard will be removed from the plane. Now it will roll and it will be pulled as a guest on a holiday to GDP. hi laughing
      1. Makarov
        Makarov 7 October 2015 14: 05 New
        +1
        hi And I think that at this stage they drink exclusively alone and remember all the hiccups with the booze scattered around the office ... or even the building)))
      2. B.T.V.
        B.T.V. 7 October 2015 14: 06 New
        +4
        Quote: Kil 31
        Probably today again his drunken guard will be removed from the plane. Now it will roll and it will be pulled as a guest on a holiday to GDP.


        Does he really know how to play hockey ?! GDP is going to spend its birthday with the participants of the Night Hockey League, and Petrus does not play hockey !!!
        1. kil 31
          kil 31 7 October 2015 14: 12 New
          +1
          Quote: B.T.W.
          Quote: Kil 31
          Probably today again his drunken guard will be removed from the plane. Now it will roll and it will be pulled as a guest on a holiday to GDP.


          Does he really know how to play hockey ?! GDP is going to spend its birthday with the participants of the Night Hockey League, and Petrus does not play hockey !!!

          He will tie the laces on skates and bring the pucks. Maybe then they’ll call for a table. hi laughing
  4. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 7 October 2015 13: 53 New
    +3
    Well, Petya lit up. Petya, they won’t forget you. your turn will come. the rope has already been prepared.
  5. Maxom75
    Maxom75 7 October 2015 13: 54 New
    +3
    That he prophesied the third world because of Ukraine, now because of Syria. Does he want to die so quickly?
    1. kepmor
      kepmor 7 October 2015 13: 57 New
      +3
      Yes, it would be faster! In Hell Poros have long been waiting, truancy set!
  6. 53-Sciborskiy
    53-Sciborskiy 7 October 2015 13: 55 New
    +4
    For courage, he took the vodka, bit fat and carries all kinds of nonsense, the peacemaker of horseradish.
  7. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 7 October 2015 13: 56 New
    +5
    Have a bite! ... laughing
    1. AlexTires
      AlexTires 7 October 2015 14: 07 New
      +1
      Notable for his snack - candy from palm oil with a braga ... lol
  8. demoniac1666
    demoniac1666 7 October 2015 13: 56 New
    +4
    Petyunya generally cares little about the fate of his own country, Syria is much more important!
    1. kepmor
      kepmor 7 October 2015 14: 08 New
      +6
      And where did you see the "country" on that side? She seems even 2 years ago "ordered to live long." There is a herd left!
  9. andr327
    andr327 7 October 2015 13: 56 New
    +4
    I understand that sometimes you can make a joke, but for almost two years work as a jester? Although probably more crazy and no!
    1. 53-Sciborskiy
      53-Sciborskiy 7 October 2015 14: 04 New
      +8
      To the question of the journalist: - Why does the president of Ukraine prefer to rattle his arms instead of working his head? The press secretary of the Ukrainian president replied: “Petro Poroshenko, what, woodpecker, do you work with your head ?!”
    2. Beaver
      Beaver 7 October 2015 14: 06 New
      +1
      The remaining clowns around the world demand an end to unfair competition from Petrushka. wassat
  10. sledge
    sledge 7 October 2015 13: 56 New
    +2
    The President of Ukraine continues to vigorously carry nonsense! How he wants to be noticed.
    1. AlexTires
      AlexTires 7 October 2015 14: 04 New
      +2
      Quote: Sanya
      The President of Ukraine continues to vigorously carry nonsense! How he wants to be noticed.

      Putin's birthday is celebrated ....
      1. Manul
        Manul 7 October 2015 17: 31 New
        0
        Quote: AlexTires
        Putin's birthday is celebrated ....

        Just today is his day of sobriety. He will hold on with all his might so that by chance they do not think what he drinks for Vladimir Vladimirovich.
  11. VNP1958PVN
    VNP1958PVN 7 October 2015 13: 56 New
    +2
    President of Ukraine continues to celebrate violently
    And Biden drove a new dope!
  12. RomanS
    RomanS 7 October 2015 13: 57 New
    +3
    But don’t worry, in Ukraine there are about 40 million people. And this is their president ... You can say: "The voice of the people."
    1. kepmor
      kepmor 7 October 2015 14: 12 New
      +3
      In the states of more than 300 million and nothing, their OBAMA "voice of the people"! Themselves choose all crap, what kind of people ...?
  13. roskot
    roskot 7 October 2015 13: 58 New
    +15
    And continues to crap.
    He is afraid that they will forget about him.
  14. St Petrov
    St Petrov 7 October 2015 13: 58 New
    +2
    foolish people
  15. Twice RUSSIAN
    Twice RUSSIAN 7 October 2015 14: 00 New
    0
    Commenting on the ravings of bedding USA tired. They need to be punished very seriously, I think it will someday happen.
    1. Balu495
      Balu495 7 October 2015 14: 44 New
      +3
      In the morning I drank - all day the president of Ukraine. )
  16. iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 7 October 2015 14: 01 New
    +1
    Eh, well, they didn’t let the drunk get a massacre in the Crimea, drug addicts calmed him down in the Donbass, and that’s how he freaks out, demon.
  17. Alexey Boukin
    Alexey Boukin 7 October 2015 14: 01 New
    0
    I wonder who is interested in the opinion of this ghoul, destroying his people, about the Russian "aggression in Syria"? He would save his own skin, and not rant before the students, showing his importance in international affairs.
  18. RUS96
    RUS96 7 October 2015 14: 02 New
    0
    What a fool this fool is. no
  19. AlexTires
    AlexTires 7 October 2015 14: 03 New
    0
    In his speech, Petya is clearly jealous of such attention of the Russians to another sow, Gerashchenko, and therefore decided not to give the palm in the eloquence to his rival ...
    1. kepmor
      kepmor 7 October 2015 14: 16 New
      +1
      Apparently our sun will have to fork out. After all, the "Order of Judah" is worthy of more than half of the population of Ukropia, and not one Georshchenko got it!
  20. Russian jacket
    Russian jacket 7 October 2015 14: 06 New
    +1
    Speech is like thunder ... Give Pete rum .... Laughter and sin ... And this is trying to teach everyone ... Shame ... fool
  21. uralex
    uralex 7 October 2015 14: 08 New
    +2
    Poroshenko apparently has a plan: at least one vyser per day ... Tries, "cookies" serve))))
  22. Denis DV
    Denis DV 7 October 2015 14: 09 New
    +2
    Petyunya will agree to the fact that he will be allowed to go into the legendary outhouse for “bathing” soldier
  23. ssn18
    ssn18 7 October 2015 14: 11 New
    0
    Well damn, just to shake the air. Although what remains for him, only to vibrate the air, otherwise they will forget all the ghoul.
  24. arjuna307
    arjuna307 7 October 2015 14: 12 New
    +1
    Petrusha! Yes, you first restore order in your country, and only then point out about the 3rd World War.
  25. evil partisan
    evil partisan 7 October 2015 14: 17 New
    +1
    For me, every life of a Ukrainian warrior is the highest value.

    I believe, Petya, I believe ... winked
  26. Thomas
    Thomas 7 October 2015 14: 17 New
    +1
    The videoconferencing operation in Syria revealed the ins and outs of American politics in the Middle East and Europe.
    And making such statements, Poroshenko and similar European and Middle Eastern politicians continue to "shoot the office" and shame in the eyes of the international community. If this goes on, it is quite possible that European countries will lift the sanctions in the near future. For example, this was reported to me by friends from the Baltic states today. They already have such conversations.
  27. MATROSKIN-53
    MATROSKIN-53 7 October 2015 14: 20 New
    +1
    A dog is fighting torn! He knows that a scribe will come to him if the Russian army sets foot on the territory of Ukraine! Fascist Ukraine, which this stink created!
  28. The comment was deleted.
    1. Siberia 9444
      Siberia 9444 7 October 2015 16: 03 New
      +4
      I agree to listen and read about this American six tired
  29. marna
    marna 7 October 2015 14: 29 New
    +1
    Nothing new - the next passage of the great peacemaker. In each barrel a plug, it would be better to attend to default.
  30. Bekas1967
    Bekas1967 7 October 2015 14: 29 New
    -2
    THERE IS WHAT X ... broadcast the words of a parashenka ???? who cares ?? who cares what the head says for example Honduras about Syria ??? Why ?? He needs it, otherwise they began to forget about Ukraine in the World .. .And I'm not interested!
  31. AdekvatNICK
    AdekvatNICK 7 October 2015 14: 37 New
    +1
    At a meeting in Sochi with the President of Russia, Shoigu said that we are already working out ships for goals. (Russia 24)

    Petya, why are you not asking Europe to let five thousand refugees shelter?
    1. MATROSKIN-53
      MATROSKIN-53 7 October 2015 14: 52 New
      0
      What refugees, brother ?! They have nothing to eat ...
  32. Afinogen
    Afinogen 7 October 2015 14: 37 New
    +1
    The President of Ukraine continues to vigorously note the fact that the DPR and LPR authorities postponed the local elections for 2016


    Oluh, we must not celebrate, but think about how to survive the winter without coal and gas. And then there will be sooooo many elections in dill, the country will scatter into states yes
  33. morozik
    morozik 7 October 2015 14: 41 New
    +6
    ___________________
    1. ALEA IACTA EST
      ALEA IACTA EST 7 October 2015 18: 10 New
      0
      Yandex will not lie! bully
    2. The comment was deleted.
  34. miss
    miss 7 October 2015 14: 42 New
    +1
    It is not for him to comment on the actions of Russia, and moreover, it is not for him to teach us how to live. Him, the "guarantor of independence" bazaar in the UN in English.
  35. MATROSKIN-53
    MATROSKIN-53 7 October 2015 14: 49 New
    +2
    Petya, you are just a gnus! Sing swallow, sing. Purulent America composes these songs for you. A country without principled, deceitful and corrupt! You also sold Ukraine! But such a nickel and zoryana is clear that the people see everything and your end is near ... You are pubic, and in common people you’ve got a mandowo!
  36. evil partisan
    evil partisan 7 October 2015 15: 12 New
    0
    By the way:

    NATO Secretary General allows Turkey to shoot down Russian fighters

    07.10.2015 - 15: 03
    NATO Secretary General allows Turkey to shoot down Russian fighters | Russian spring
    Turkey, as a member of NATO, is itself capable of protecting its airspace from aircraft that violate it; the North Atlantic Alliance supports it in this matter, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said in an interview with CNN.

    The Russian Ministry of Defense reported on Monday that on October 3, a Russian Su-30 aircraft made a short-term, for several seconds, entry into Turkish airspace. The Ministry of Defense noted that the incident was the result of adverse weather conditions.

    Earlier, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said that the incident would not cause tension between the countries. According to him, Moscow informed Ankara that the incident with a Russian military plane violating Turkish airspace occurred by mistake, and assured that such incidents would not happen again.

    Stoltenberg emphasized that such incidents with military aircraft "should not be repeated."

    “What if Turkey decides to bring down a Russian plane in its airspace, then this will be considered justified? Unless, of course, there will actually be a violation (of airspace), ”the presenter asked Hala Gorani.

    “I’ll just say that NATO can protect all our allies, Turkey is our strong ally. They have their own military potential ... they themselves can protect their airspace, we support them when they protect their airspace, ”said Stoltenberg.

    The Secretary General once again stated that the Russian Federation is strengthening its military presence in Syria, but could not give exact numbers. Stoltenberg also said that the Russian Federation allegedly attacks mainly against various opposition groups, and not against the Islamic State.

    On September 30, at the request of President Bashar al-Assad, Russia began to launch targeted airstrikes against Islamic State facilities in Syria using Su-25 attack aircraft, Su-24M and Su-34 front-line bombers, and Su-30SM fighter aircraft are covering them from the air.

    According to the Ministry of Defense, the Russian aircraft have significantly breached the management and logistics of the militants, as well as damage to infrastructure caused by the preparation of suicide bombers.

    Targets are selected based on intelligence from Russia and Syria, including aerial reconnaissance. According to the Russian military, the equipment of Russian aircraft allows it to strike at IS * throughout Syria and with "absolute accuracy."

    The Syrian ambassador to Russia, Riyad Haddad, previously confirmed that the attacks were carried out specifically against terrorist armed groups, and not against the opposition or the civilian population. According to the ambassador, the Syrian army has the exact coordinates of the terrorists.
  37. Algetxnumx
    Algetxnumx 7 October 2015 15: 13 New
    0
    Petyunya, you need to have a bite when you are thumping, yeah, an alcoholic in a house, woe to the country fool
  38. sevsor
    sevsor 7 October 2015 15: 13 New
    0
    Again ParAshenko, this unsuccessful politician and stupid leader, is inflating Ukrainian harem pants in order to remind his western and overseas owners to remind himself: "Do not leave me, I'm good!" (M.S. Panikovsky, "The Golden Calf" when he ran for the "Wildebeest"). It’s just that this scene came to my mind)))
  39. sinukvl
    sinukvl 7 October 2015 15: 20 New
    +4
    All!!! Petyunya snuffed out !!! This is no longer a squirrel, it's already cooler !!!
  40. natakor1949
    natakor1949 7 October 2015 15: 47 New
    0
    This is an eternally drunken, brainless creature who dares to talk about "the highest value", about the life of "every Ukrainian warrior", on whose hands there are, indeed, 8-10 thousand - killed, forcibly mortified, raped, mutilated men, women, children. And how many hundreds of thousands left their native places where their descendants lived and now are forced to wander around other countries, because the current president, the guarantor of the peace of their country, is simply a fascist and a black monkey hankey. And this h .. - dare in haste to remember the events in Syria? But here your concern is really justified, as the representative used to say, in my opinion Germany, the Russian Army will be in Kiev in 3 hours. Yes, you already need a petrutchio to worry about your own soul and body - the end is here, it’s close, already visible from beyond the horizon.
  41. solvi
    solvi 7 October 2015 16: 00 New
    +2
    As for the door, Poroshenko said it well. It is felt that he heard this topic in full. You see, at his door the line is growing every minute. At first, one fright came, then glitches appeared, a squirrel came up behind them, and bosom friends pulled up with her - obsessive states, more and more in terms of harassment, surveillance and inevitable detention for holding an international trial of the president-killer of the country 404. But the worst has not yet come, it is a little late ... - and this is a verdict. Although on the horizon it is already barely visible. Sentence of Capital Punishment for crimes against HUMANITY.
  42. atamankko
    atamankko 7 October 2015 17: 43 New
    +2
    Not a politician, but just a stink.
  43. ALEA IACTA EST
    ALEA IACTA EST 7 October 2015 17: 53 New
    +1
    Only everyone forgot about this insignificance, so again he gave a voice ...
  44. APASUS
    APASUS 7 October 2015 18: 57 New
    +1
    Even the most expensive cognac can choke ...................
  45. unsinkable
    unsinkable 7 October 2015 19: 20 New
    +1
    Why even read the speculation of this beggar. He will never say anything clever. Like Gerashchenko, he is worthy of the Order of Judah.
  46. gammipapa
    gammipapa 7 October 2015 19: 27 New
    +1
    What can I say, we can only repeat the words of the Ukrainian citizen from the video above. -Now Putin in Syria will show us all how he can bomb and then we’ll all crap .... and surrender.
  47. RUS69
    RUS69 7 October 2015 20: 28 New
    +2
    That's right, Petya is not tongue ass will not give the owner money, keep up the good work ...
    He is telling himself that the Russian Federation is aggressor, but how does Europe meet Putin with a mug of brick right there and remain silent, Petya humbly?
  48. Laksamana besar
    Laksamana besar 7 October 2015 21: 42 New
    +3
    ..........................
  49. proletarian
    proletarian 7 October 2015 22: 12 New
    0
    And what door after such statements does Peter Alekseevich himself knock on? ..

    Duc, as if in what; he will "clatter" at the gates of "hell", but even there they will send him to a well-known address, and the "poor fellow" between Hell and Paradise will "poke around" with outstretched hand.
  50. Lexeus
    Lexeus 7 October 2015 23: 02 New
    +1
    But what difference does it make that this blame carries fluff, no one takes them seriously ........