Trojan War and its reconstruction (seventh part)

I wanted to finish the theme of the Trojan War (there were only chariots, ships and the notorious “sea peoples”), as active users of the Alliance pointed out a number of circumstances that simply obligate me to continue this topic. First, with a sufficiently complete presentation of factual material based on archaeological finds, the “people” wanted to learn about the tactics of use and especially the effectiveness of certain types of weapons Mycenaean era. It is clear that such a science as historiography cannot directly answer this question, and answers only through the work of some authoritative authors. Secondly, there was a controversy regarding the actual technology of bronze. Someone thought that a bronze rapier was heavy like a five-liter container with water, someone claimed that bronze was not forged, in a word and it took the opinion of experts in this field. Others were interested in shields, their design, ability to resist the blows of bronze weapons and weight.

That is, it was necessary to turn to the opinion of reenactors, moreover, authoritative people, “with experience”, who could confirm something by experience, and refute something. My acquaintances of the foundry workers of the bronze figures did not fit in this case: they are artists, not technologists, and they don’t know the characteristics of working with metal, and they almost don’t do any weapons. And I needed people who had access to famous museums and their collections, working on their artifacts, custom made replicas. The quality of their work (and reviews of it) should have been appropriate - that is, the opinion of the “cabinet historians” regarding their products should have been high.

Modern replicas of bronze swords: at the top of the sword of type H and at the bottom of type G.

After a long search, I managed to find three experts in this field. Two in England and one in the United States and obtain permission from them to use their text and photographic materials. But now the regulars of the VO and just its visitors get a unique opportunity to see their work, get acquainted with the technologies and their own comments on this interesting topic.

Neil Burridge with an "antenna sword" in his hands.

To begin with, I will give the floor to Neil Barridge, a Briton who has been involved in 12 bronze weapons for years. He considers the worst insult for himself when “experts” come to his workshop and say that they would make exactly the same sword on a CNC machine twice as fast and, accordingly, at half the cost. "But it would have been a completely different sword!" - Neal answers them, but not always convinces. Well, they are stupid ignoramuses in England as ignoramuses and nothing can be done about it. Well, seriously, he shares the opinion of the nineteenth-century English historian. Richard Burton, that "story the sword is the history of mankind. " And this is exactly how bronze swords and daggers created this history, becoming the basis, yes-yes, the basis of our modern civilization, based on the use of metals and machines!

Sword type CI. The length of 74, see. The weight of 650. As you can see, the "rapiers" of that time were not at all heavy and, therefore, they could be completely fenced. And in general, bronze swords were not heavier than iron ones!

Analysis of the findings shows that the most ancient "rapiers" of the XVII and XVI centuries. BC. were the most difficult if we consider the profile of the blade. They have lots of ribs and grooves. Later blades are much simpler. And this weapon is piercing, because the blades had a wooden handle connected to the blade with rivets. Later, the handle was cast at the same time as the blade, but very often, according to tradition, the bulging heads of rivets on the guard were preserved, and the guard itself was the holder of the blade!

Mycenaean cast bronze sword.

Swords were cast in stone or in ceramic forms. Stone was more difficult, and besides, the sides of the blade were slightly different from each other. Ceramic could be detachable, and could be integral, that is, work on the technology of "lost form". The basis for the form could be made of wax - two completely identical halves cast in plaster!

Author's clay form.

Copper (and Homer Greeks did not distinguish bronze, for them it was also copper!) The alloy used in later swords (in the early ones that just didn’t exist!) Consisted roughly of 8-9% tin and 1-3% lead. It was added to improve the flow of bronze for complex castings. 12% tin in bronze is the limit - the metal will be very brittle!

As for the general direction of the evolution of the sword, it definitely moved in the direction from the piercing sword of the rapier to the chopping leaf-shaped sword with a handle that is a continuation of the blade! It is important to note that the metallographic analysis shows: the cutting edge of the blade of bronze swords was always forged to increase its strength! The sword itself was cast, but the cutting edges are always forged! Although to do this without damaging the numerous edges on the blade, it was clearly not easy! (Those who wrote about this in the comments - rejoice! It was exactly that!) Therefore the sword was both flexible and hard at the same time! Tests have shown that such a leaf-like sword with one blow is capable of chopping a five-liter plastic container with water in half with an impact diagonally!

Sheet-like sword of bronze.

What does a sword look like that comes out of a mold? Poorly! This is how it is shown in our photo and it takes a lot of time and effort to turn it into an eye-pleasing product!

Just cast blade.

Removing bald, proceed to grinding, which is now performed using
abrasive, but in that distant time was made of quartz sand. But before polishing the blade, remember that at least 3 mm of its cutting edge must be well forged! It should be noted that only a few swords of that time were completely symmetrical. Apparently, the symmetry of a large role in the eyes of the then gunsmiths did not play!

Begin processing blade.

This is what a blade with all the details prepared for the assembly looks like. Now all this needs to be combined on rivets and to think about one more thing - regular cleaning of the blade, as the polished bronze fades from the slightest touch of fingers.

Author's remark: It's amazing what zigzags our life moves! In 1972, in his first year at a teacher’s college, he became interested in Mycenaean Greece and Egypt. I bought two fabulous albums with photos of artifacts and decided ... to make myself a bronze dagger modeled on the Egyptian one. He cut it out of a bronze sheet with a thickness of 3 mm, and then as a convict sawed a blade with a file to obtain a sheet-like profile. The handle made of ... "Egyptian mastic" by mixing cement with red nitrolac. He processed everything, polished it and immediately noticed that it’s impossible to take up the blade with your hands! And then I saw that the Egyptian маст mastic ’was blue (they considered red as barbaric!) And I immediately disliked the dagger, despite the abyss of work. I remember that I gave it to someone, so, most likely, he still has it at someone in Penza. Then he made a bronze mirror to his future wife, and she really liked it. That's just to have to clean it well, very often. And now, after so many years, I again turn to the same topic and write about it ... Amazing!

The parts of the wooden handle on a metal base on rivets are fixed and this is a laborious and responsible operation, because if the wood is fragile (in this case, you need to use elm, hornbeam or beech), then with a hammer blow it can be easily damaged!

The finished sword is by Neil Barridge.

It is clear that Neil tried to reproduce if not the entire typology of Sandars' swords, then at least the most impressive specimens from it.

Mycenaean type B short sword. Length 39,5 cm. Weight 400 g.

Sword of type G, found in the Mycenaean Acropolis. Length xnumx see

Fully finished sword type G with a "horned crosshair." The price of the blade 190 pounds, and a fully worked sword with a golden ring on the handle will cost you 290!

Sword type F (large). Length 58 cm. Weight 650 g.

The sword of the classical type Naue II of the late Achaean era, spread throughout Europe.

The author is grateful to Neal Barridge (http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/) for the provided photos of his works and information. [Left] [/ left]

The ending follows.

Comments

[Igor39]

It is interesting to look at the replicas of weapons, as if in the past, visited, super pictures!

[kalibr]

Wait for the continuation. There the photo is even better. Himself ... I was glad how I got them and got consent to print with us.

[Igor39]

We are waiting, and more than different, I myself tried to engage in flint clipping technique, I made a knife, once right now, in the winter I’ll try

[kalibr]

Where is photo? Its cool!

[ICT]

Quote: Igor39

Interesting to look at replica weapons

By the way here, in connection with a series of articles. on the go, I watched films on this topic (there is a desire to re-read the Iliad), well, we can say that even armor and weapons completely coincide.

By the way, you can also make a selection on this topic.

just an example of the stabbing of those times

[tanit]

The series of articles is wonderful. But what were the Trojans armed with? And Mycenaean weapons with armor described in the cycle - are weapons of the era of the Trojan War, and not the war itself?

[kalibr]

You are right - not the most! But ... from the very nothing left! What is found in Troy again has nothing to do with the war itself! This is the period for ... before 1250 and for ... after about both years at both ends. More precisely, no one can say anything. How nice it would be for Neil Barridge to make a sword or a dagger and say - an exact copy ... It cannot! That is, there are finds of weapons there, but not one archeologist will undertake to link them exactly in 250 years of war!

[tanit]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, but from the Trojans - that there is absolutely nothing left? After all, they traded and fought for more than one hundred years - didn’t they really? No graves, no drawings?

[kalibr]

The ruins remained on the Hisarlik hill - in several layers, and when Schliemann was looking for HIS TROY, he buried the real one. Now they argue - is the real Troy layer 6 and 7? And there are a lot of them in all - I had it in one of the materials. And now the "treasure of Priam" was found, only he was "not Priam." And Troy itself is traces of fire and broken shards!

[tanit]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, but from the Trojans - that there is absolutely nothing left? After all, they traded and fought for more than one hundred years - didn’t they really? No graves, no drawings?

[IS-80]

By the way, the question is. Why, in your opinion, were the first swords pricking? And yes, the article has a caption under the picture

Mycenae Short Sword Type B.

not true.

[kalibr]

I dont know. Ewart Oakeshott hypothesized that these swords were brought to Europe by people from Assyria. Look at their reliefs. They have thrusting swords with scabbard wings. He suggested that the "wings" were the hand rest when the blade was removed from its sheath. And then, they say, someone came to Europe and started. But this does not explain the wide heel of the blade and the fastening of the blade to the rivets. You can, of course, weave people from Kyperborea, Atlandis and the MU mainland, but no one knows for sure.

[Riv]

Well, as always ... Once again, we are conducting a natural experiment. Take a "type CI" sword and bend it over the knee. Even on a brick, or on the head of an ancient Egyptian, you don't need to hit them, we just press with our hands. What does the sword do? That's right: it bends. Or it simply breaks if the bronze is arsenic.

The simplest mathematics. The density of bronze is approximately 8 grams per cubic centimeter. Product weight 650 grams. We divide the mass by the density, we get the volume of spent bronze of the order of 80-85 cubic centimeters. Well, maybe 90, not critical. That is, taking into account the width of the blade, its thickness at the handle is three millimeters, and even less on the edge. Q: HAVE YOU AT LEAST ONCE HELD A BRONZE? So to figure it out: you don't even need a knee. "Blade flexible and strong at the same time" is perfect for making a corkscrew. A strong person will cope with the task without much difficulty. :)))

Two swords in the starting picture look like weapons, yes ... But these are castings. The arms are uniquely cast and exactly the same way they are cast at the same time with the blade. I do not observe forging marks on the blade. However, it is not a fact that there was no forging, but if it really was not, then with these swords you can cut something, but not cut it. When you hit a solid object, a bronze blade without cracking and heat treatment will crack and crumble. Actually, this is further discussed in the article.

People who have never held a bronze band in their hands can be forgiven for an admiring gasp. But a person who has made at least a knife with his own hands will only laugh at the sight of these museum items. Cut the container with water, you say? To paraphrase a famous movie: "A container of water cannot give back." Why be surprised that so many Fomenkovites got divorced? Historiography is full of inconsistencies, and such "reenactors" only multiply such inconsistencies.

[tanit]

Quote: Riv

Take a "type CI" sword and bend it over the knee. Even on a brick, or on the head of an ancient Egyptian, you don't need to hit them, we just press with our hands. What does the sword do? That's right: it bends.

Interesting .. Flush with oppression? And are you going to beat the Egyptian with the same sword flatly? What a humanist you are

[Glot]

What a humanist you are

Yes, he is not a humanist, just a bore with claims.

[abrakadabre]

rather a militant weapon-friendly amateur.

[Igor39]

So what? Nobody is going to fight with these swords, well, I made bronze items, but the photos didn’t cause an idiotic laugh. Avatar is your photo in the original?

[Glot]

Well, as always...

It's right.

[Glot]

Well, as always...

It's right.

[abrakadabre]

The density of steel is about the same 7,8 grams per cubic cm.
You have not answered me over the course of several discussions on the cycle: how many blades you held in your hands and how many fenced. How many made ...
You write so much about weapons, as if with you all your life on you.
What do you know about fencing in general? And historical in particular? How many armor, no matter what era, did you try on yourself and go with him, let’s into a sports, but fight?
Answer finally.

The bronze blade is successfully able to cut an unharmed enemy, of which there were 9/10 of the number of participants on the then battlefields.
Like a bronze ax - chopping much more dense substance than a human body - a tree.
Moreover, even with high-quality blades of the late Middle Ages, they tried not to rigidly fend off enemy weapons. For it is very destructive for the blade. And in battle it can deprive a fighter of a weapon at the most inopportune moment. Although what am I talking about? You stubbornly do not want to see facts inconvenient for your reasoning. As well as absolutely no idea about fencing at all. Pure Fomenkovism.

In those distant times, as in later eras, they parried mainly on the shield. Moreover, for most warriors, the shield was almost the only armor. Except for the helmet.

[kalibr]

By the way, quite recently, in historical times, the British and French supplied bronze-cast tomahawks to their allies, the Indians of the Delaware and the Mohicans. And nothing, they were quite happy with them. Steel mass factory release went only in the middle of the 19 century!

[Riv]

Guys, at least you get the hang of it, but on the topic, you still have nothing to argue with.
Of course! In Soviet times, it was taught in school that stools should be made and metal processed. And after school they taught. And at the enterprise ... Now tell me that the eighth grade student knew how to cook - they won’t believe it. Why such knowledge to a student ??? And in our class, ALL the boys had a driver’s license for graduation, and they donated to them not for fifty bucks, but on the 130th ZIL. Because the Code of Criminal Procedure once a week and in the summer - on motor transport, on a part-time job. Tire fitting? Do not make me laugh. But the two could replace the camera at Kamaz, already about Zhigul and there was no question of calling someone for help.

Now what? Only set cons and know how. However, we have their ankle cons.

Specifically, abracadabre: I have already answered what kind of weapon I was dealing with and how I can wave a little. Search by posts to help. Of course, I am not "on you" with weapons and there are hardly such people at all. Whoever thinks he knows the weapon will recognize it, but it will be too late. But I am "on you" with the metal.

[abrakadabre]

Well, I can do all of the above. So what? And I forge the armor myself. And blades for sports combat too. And I apply all this as intended. And I have the exact opposite of your point of view. And my point of view is tested by practice.

[Riv]

So here is the difference between us. This is a game for you. With pieces of iron that should not be made sharp, with armor that no one is going to seriously punch. And I was once taught that they kill with weapons. Seriously. And if your weapon let you down at least once, then there will be no second case.
That is why there are no people who are "armed with weapons." There are people who play and there are people who have stopped playing. Many stopped altogether.

[abrakadabre]

with armor that no one is going to seriously punch.

A new manifestation of ignorance of the issue. And the most complete and stupid.
If upon impact with an unsharpened blade into the edge of the pot helmet, where two layers of metal with a total thickness of 4 mm overlap, the edge is crushed by 1-1.5 cm, is this a gentle tapping or what?

Unfinished swords are made stronger than their historical counterparts. Because they must withstand a much greater load. Due to the fact that in an unfinished blade all the impact energy must be dissipated by the blade itself, and not go to the cut.

A fighter in modern combat knows that he will not receive a stabbing mortal blow, and his armor will more or less withstand cutting-crushing and can focus on a more powerful blow, paying less attention to defending himself with a parry or maneuver.

Nichrome you do not understand the topic. Neither in blades nor in their use, except in the kitchen.

[Aljavad]

And in our class, ALL the boys had a driver’s license for graduation, and they donated to them not for fifty bucks, but on the 130th ZIL.

And don't fucking pose as "grandpa"! And there are older ones. Half of the forum comes from the USSR. They went to the same Criminal Procedure Code.

[ICT]

Quote: Riv

and a side job. Tire service

IN TIRES AND IN THE BATTERY ONLY on an excursion, hazardous production,
as well as further on in all workshops, and in electroplating only shooting tubes from decommissioned equipment

[kalibr]

Neil Burridge ensures the blade is forged! And I not only held, but I also made a dagger, but I wrote. And he cut perfectly.

[kalibr]

It is unlikely that Neal Barridge and his colleagues can be accused of being Fomenkovists, they don’t know such words. They have simple English joys - studied a thoroughly narrow topic, succeeded in their work, which is proved by official reviews and ... sits working . He does not think about politics, does not write comments. And walks through the moorlands of Cornwall and looks at the sea. Behind his garden is an alley of menhirs. On the contrary - two hills, ancient burial ... Live and rejoice!

[Riv]

Make weapons that never go to battle? They will look at him, someone will admire, someone will grin, but nothing will ever depend on his swords. Neither life nor victory. And he also lives among the cemeteries ...
That’s why I don’t like reconstruction. Adults play toys and pretend that everything is serious.

[abrakadabre]

What have you done? Neal at least makes blades. And with a very scientific approach. And does not suck out of the finger fabrications with the obligatory mantras "turn on the brains." His experiments are real, not sofa-computer ones. Unlike yours. He tests his "inventions" by direct experiment in the forge. Unlike you.
Therefore, your opinion on the topic - has zero value, but it has weight.

[Riv]

I just work. A new installation was built and launched at the plant. We are debugging the manufacturing process.
What are your really hohlyatsky habits? When Homo Ukrainus has nothing to say on the topic, it begins: "And you ..." "And you ..." "And what do you call bacon? .." Well, what kind of a strong opinion can this imitator have? Who is interested in it at all? He has been casting toys all his life. What can a clever TOY MASTER say? So what if he considers them real and does "strictly according to the rules"? I can see that this is rubbish. :)

Now, for the sake of fun, the workers in the smoking room showed pictures from the article. They ask: "What is it made of?" "Bronze." And the range of conclusions from: "But he will bend ..." to: "To walk on mushrooms."

[kalibr]

You know the opinion of your hard workers in the smoking room is a little against the opinion of Ewart Oakeshott, Thomas Richardson, David Nicolas and our historians, by the way, too, for example M.V. Gorelik You should have seen its reconstruction! Replicas of Mongolian shields made by him are displayed at the Royal Arsenal in Leeds. It has long been proven that making replicas gives answers to many questions of history that cannot be answered theoretically, but, incidentally, I often hear something like that when there is nothing more to say. The smoking-room specialist, as well as the junior scooper in the sewage wagon, generally dominate in the sense of authority. Shukshin, by the way, not without reason wrote his story "Cut" - very topical today. Now I have inserted an article by one of my colleagues - it will be out soon. About how in Penza in the 26th year hooligans from workers poured shit from barrels on several streets. They didn’t make swords, he worked and hooligan. What else to do? For some reason in Japan such masters have the rank of "national treasures". And where is Japan and where are we? So, probably, we should still equate those who, let's say, have a less complicated and dramatic history and live more ... calmly and at a higher salary. I'm not talking about the ranking of universities that order copies of these masters for their museums. Yes, blacks also study at my university. But who studies at Oxford and Cambridge? And with yours we mention the installation that you launch ... You very much reminded me of one character from the movie "Tiger Tamer". He just says to the future tamer: "We go for kerosene (he is a sailor of the river fleet), we do the job, and you are a circus, a circus!" Very similar. Take a look. Good film!

[Glot]

I just work. A new installation was built and launched at the plant.

What job ? What are the settings? You have been online for days on end.

When Homo Ukrainians have nothing to say on the topic, it begins: "And you ..." "And you ..." "And what do you call bacon? .."

That's it. You are shown the real swords of that period, which were then fought, and you say that this cannot be. You are given information about how such a weapon was made experimentally and it worked quite well, and you say again that it cannot be.
Here you have the real fat, and other gastronomy.
If your counter-arguments are - this cannot be the case, on the facts presented, then what, I already sent one today to "dig the black sea". Join us.

[Glot]

I just work. A new installation was built and launched at the plant.

What job ? What are the settings? You have been online for days on end.

When Homo Ukrainians have nothing to say on the topic, it begins: "And you ..." "And you ..." "And what do you call bacon? .."

That's it. You are shown the real swords of that period, which were then fought, and you say that this cannot be. You are given information about how such a weapon was made experimentally and it worked quite well, and you say again that it cannot be.
Here you have the real fat, and other gastronomy.
If your counter-arguments are - this cannot be the case, on the facts presented, then what, I already sent one today to "dig the black sea". Join us.

[Riv]

Which one "worked"? Who tested it and how? A flask of water was cut open - so it is a millimeter of plastic. Water does not resist the blade.

I know what the problem is. When a person is fond of something, and he is suddenly told: "You are doing nonsense" - there is always such a reaction. Here the type of hobby is not important. A tower from matches, stamps, toy cars, or to make armor yourself. Well, the hauberk riveted - then what? Fight in it? So the war is now a little different. To find another person who is equally addicted and to study the peculiarities of using a halberd with him? But honestly admit: this is a game, you are playing with toys. Wounding your opponent is the worst case for this toy fight. In real combat, the opposite is true.

And now you give me toy swords that no one will use anywhere to poke holes in a person, and even such an idea will never occur to anyone, pass them off as military weapons ???

[kalibr]

If you are such a specialist, you should know that water is pressing on the walls of a plastic vessel. That is, it's not about resistance, but about pressure!
And why, then, is the standard NATO target imitating the human body made of plasticine? Bar thickness 30 see. And that's it! It turns out that smart people calculated that one is equal to another. As calculated, I do not know. But it is and it works! We must trust the experts!

[Riv]

Now, forgive me, you have spoken such nonsense ... :))) "Water presses".
Have you heard such a surname: Archimedes? A buoyant force equal to the weight of the liquid in the volume of the body acts on a body immersed in a liquid - he invented it. That is, the water in the bottle presses against the wall with a force equal to the weight of the liquid column. How much is the height of a 15 liter bottle? Half a meter? Well, water exerts an excess pressure of about 0,05 atmospheric pressure on its wall. This is in the lower part, and in the upper one, respectively. Fatal figure, right?

[kalibr]

You answered very well at the beginning, but did not notice the end. It is not good! I didn’t come up with the idea of ​​chopping up containers. This is the practice today. So there is something in this. As well as shooting plasticine. It also has no bones, and the pressure on the "blood" OO5 is atmospheric. But they shoot ...

[Riv]

Do you seriously believe that a plastic bottle of water can mimic the human body ??? Frankly: they told you this and you believed. :)))

[Eule]

Yes, with some luck, you can negotiate with a livestock breeder and test the reconstructed ancient blade by slaughtering a farm animal. Cutting off the head of a ram or a goat is approximately equal to defeating the enemy in battle, as the cattle dodges and tries to butt, so the stance is random. The neck of a standing "Big 6" turkey is about the wrist in cross-section of the bones (comparison of the bones of a turkey neck with a skeleton in a museum).
But such a test requires some organization and squeamishness, and you have to pay, in addition to going to conduct the experiment when the livestock breeder needs it.

Quote: kalibr

cut containers

The main feature of chopping containers is that with a curved impact, the plane of the blade works like a wing, or rather like an oar in water, and a lateral load on the blade is obtained, up to its breakage. In ancient times, a blow was set by "chopping" water in a trough, striving to ensure that there was as little splash as possible, that is, the movement of the blade in a plane.
The main advantage of the containers is that they are the same! That is, you can compare the results of different people from different countries and spread over time.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

A flask with water was cut - this is a millimeter of plastic.

The cutting test is like this. He came to replace the cutting of straw. Plastic bottles at the initial stage of chopping have much greater resistance than straw. Pretty durable, layered. Crushes, instead of being cut. In addition, bottles are available to everyone. Almost anyone can appreciate in practice. You just have to watch. It’s easier to cut into a large bottle of water than into a small one, because it has inertia and the bearing area is larger. It’s easier to cut in at an oblique angle than at a straight angle - the support helps. And much easier if it is a bottle with a ribbed wall. In general, chopping is different.
In general, the correct blades are determined only by cutting the tree. At the same time, internal defects of the blade are detected. By the way, cast bronze swords are probably easier to detect defects than steel, forged. It costs a lot.

Quote: Riv

Well riveted Hauberk - then what? Fight in it?

Well, this is a combination of business with pleasure. And hobbies, and sports, and interest in how your ancestors lived. Not on Hollywood films to be guided. For example, the character https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaKTm1MTvwg
And also informative. And ponto. And the muscles of the forearms develop to the state of "pull out the Adam's apple." But that man could lie on the couch and grow a beer belly, like many.

Quote: Riv

But honestly, admit: this is a game, you play toys.

Of course. 90% of all - absolute nonsense, this is well known. But criticism in this direction means that the critic has not found anything interesting for himself in life. Therefore, he has time to breed this criticism.

[Riv]

Actually 100%. :)
And I'm not criticizing this pastime. If you like to play - play. I've been racing Diablo III for season four. You just don't need to be hypocritical. Be honest, "I play toys."

[abrakadabre]

And I'm not criticizing this pastime. If you like to play - play. I've been racing Diablo III for season four. You just don't need to be hypocritical. Be honest, "I play toys."

From how it is. That's where all the knowledge about weapons comes from ...
By your reasoning, anything that is not a fight to the death is a worthless game. Any sport in principle. Indeed, even in the octagon, opponents do not mutuz each other to death. And in the army at the training grounds too. Even the practice shooting of the Bulava or Voevoda at the Kura training ground is, in essence, the same useless and hypocritical game. After all, neither one nor the other rocket has ever killed anyone in history and has never flown into a real battle. So, according to your version, it is a worthless toy.
But YOU ... you are our realist, in Diablo ... This is beyond competition and beyond criticism - there is an indisputable giant of the real world ...

[Glot]

Which one "worked"? Who tested it and how? A flask of water was cut open - so it is a millimeter of plastic. Water does not resist the blade.

I will now try to state my thoughts on this answer.
You see, you look at this blade through the eyes of a modern person, and expect from a bronze blade three thousand years ago what the blade can do from modern steels.
But look at him through the eyes of the Trojan, and everything will fall into place. For him, it was a weapon with which he killed and survived with which. It was not a toy for him.
Thousands in two or three years, someone may also have seen images of AK (for example), or after reading from sources that have come down to them how they were killed, they will also say with skepticism that according to "all the laws of physics" it is impossible to get out of it, but after he will not break through anything, well, except that point-blank and put the whole BC ... But now for us it is a weapon.
Look at the sword through the eyes of the Trojan, from the perspective of its capabilities and expectations.
And yet, I did not hold such bronze blades in my hands, iron yes, I held a dozen or three authentic. But he twisted the bronze dagger of Urartu in handles. He was not very comfortable, a small handle, but I assure you can kill them. And you can easily.

[Riv]

Physics is the same everywhere. A Spartan, seeing the "rapier", would laugh. Just like me. He just had xyphos, and even shortened so that it was more comfortable to hold in his hand.

[Glot]

A Spartan, seeing the "rapier", would laugh.

Perhaps, as one of Richard’s warriors would have laughed at the Spartan. But, the warrior who stood at the walls of Troy and the warrior who participated in the Peloponnesian war or walking in Asia doing anabasis are different warriors.
Once again I ask, try to look at these swords through the eyes of those people. They were cut by what their time had come to and what their capabilities allowed.

[Riv]

So after all, my main difference from the local public is that I look at all these reconstructions just like that: really. A lot of weapons have been created in the world. There are successful samples, there are unsuccessful ones. For me, bronze rapier is another unsuccessful model, that's all.
And the reenactors do not like this attitude. They are accustomed to admiring their products. :))) It would be something ... Here's a product (I won’t bother and rotate the picture), do not want to admire?

[Glot]

So after all, my main difference from the local public is that I look at all these reconstructions just like that: really.

This is the problem of your misunderstanding. See through the eyes of a man of the 21st century. But this weapon was created and used by a person who lived several thousand years before you, and he had completely different views on these weapons, other possibilities, and another reality.

[Riv]

You're wrong. It doesn’t matter in which century a person was born. When I look at the weapon, I see the weapon and it doesn’t matter when it was made. I wonder how to use it to make holes in my opponent, and to make sure that the newest holes do not appear in me. The model may be successful, or useless, but weapons are made to kill.

And why does the reenactor make his samples? For Game. Well, or for show-off. "Look how brave I am: I made a sword for myself." Now you understand why it was fun for me to read this article?

[abrakadabre]

[qoute] Why does the reenactor make his samples? For Game. Well, or for show-off. "Look how brave I am: I made a sword for myself." [/ qoute] Completely and completely wrong.
For the game, knives are made by guys 18-20 years of age who came to the machine from the school desk in their free time after the shift. Then to brag to your friends in the gateway. I have seen many of these.

The reconstructor has a completely different motivation. And completely different tasks. The task of the reconstructor is to directly recreate a historical object, such as a weapon, or a technological process, to check how it was, how durable, functional, how feasible it is, and so on. And through this, understand how people lived, what they thought, felt, etc. And it is precisely accuracy of correspondence to historical patterns that is put at the forefront, and not a dull appearance.

The same as if you order at the factory, for example, a mold for stamping steel products, you will also observe not only the external geometric dimensions according to the drawing. But you will pick up the brand (if the customer has not indicated explicitly), and you will do the heat treatment accordingly. So the game is not a game, it doesn’t matter. The same large museums that order replicas of exhibits have such strict requirements for authenticity that you never dreamed about in your serious, non-gaming production. This is a science, not a game. Very serious. And not teenage pouting.
And festivals are more a pleasant and colorful addition.

But what about the master, who has put a lot of manual labor into his work, wants to boast of his work a little - so you also offered to be proud of the high-altitude chimney above - this is also a complex creation of human hands, simply modern. I think that you, too, are not without pride in everything that you make yourself. This is normal and inherent in any person.

[Riv]

And again you are mistaken. First: modern shkolota can’t do knives. Forgotten how. They are more versed in tanks, thanks to Belarus. Secondly: if in my time a little fellow made a knife, then he made a weapon. You, apparently, have not already found this time, you should not convince me of the opposite. Ponte rotten of course, and then enough, but if the knife was bare, then he was ready to hit.

A restorer ... Read above, again. I have already said everything on this topic. He wants to be proud of his success in making toys - his right. But do not assume that his work has historical value. If this were so, then in the museums all the originals would have long been replaced by copies. Weapons, paintings, sculptures - all without exception.

[kalibr]

The Japanese say: The past is a mirror in which the present looks.

[Riv]

Which one "worked"? Who tested it and how? A flask of water was cut open - so it is a millimeter of plastic. Water does not resist the blade.

I know what the problem is. When a person is fond of something, and he is suddenly told: "You are doing nonsense" - there is always such a reaction. Here the type of hobby is not important. A tower from matches, stamps, toy cars, or to make armor yourself. Well, the hauberk riveted - then what? Fight in it? So the war is now a little different. To find another person who is equally addicted and to study the peculiarities of using a halberd with him? But honestly admit: this is a game, you are playing with toys. Wounding your opponent is the worst case for this toy fight. In real combat, the opposite is true.

And now you give me toy swords that no one will use anywhere to poke holes in a person, and even such an idea will never occur to anyone, pass them off as military weapons ???

[Aljavad]

Now, for the sake of fun, the workers in the smoking room showed pictures from the article. They ask: "What is it made of?" "Bronze." And the range of conclusions from: "But he will bend ..." to: "To walk on mushrooms."

And against Kalash - well, no one really rolls! Yes?

He was the pinnacle of technology 3,5 you-xi-chi (!) Years ago! And the master who made it, could make it himself. Without subcontractors. And he could do all the necessary devices and tools himself. Only hands and head.

Would you be able to do your installation like that? Yourself? Without subcontractors? And if you need a crane, you need to build it yourself?

Shkolota! Journeyman...

[Riv]

So what was this comment? You are so indignant as if I offended an ancient master whose descendant you are.

[kalibr]

Everyone has their own whims, right? And someone sells oil and lives on an armored yacht with a golden toilet. As they say - who likes pop, who gets hit, who pop daughter - said the hell, took off his pants and sat in the nettle!

[Aljavad]

but nothing will ever depend on his swords. Neither life nor victory.

Neil Burridge keeps the MEMORY of humanity. He fights with those who shout: I was born yesterday, and the day before yesterday there was nothing!

Thank Neil Burridge

[abrakadabre]

Madly plus! Many thanks to the author for this section. Can masters additionally request data on the balance point (center of gravity relative to the guard) for chopping and stabbing (proto rapier) blades? This would be very indicative of proving and illustrating the possibility of high-speed fencing.

For medieval swords with relatively equal functions of cutting and pricking, the optimal location of the balance point was approximately the width of a palm from the guard. That is, 8-10 cm. This allows you to have a significant chopping blow and at the same time it is enough to quickly redirect the blade when fencing with injections and fending off enemy weapons in the absence of a shield.

For a chopping blade, the balance point should be shifted towards the tip. In the limit - be at a third of the length of the blade from the tip. This makes the chopping strike as powerful as possible. But it extremely reduces the agility of the blade and increases fatigue during fencing.

For purely pricking high-speed fencing, on the contrary, the balance point shifts even closer to the guard or is inside the guard. This makes it possible to very quickly and tirelessly make evolution with a blade. For example, rapiers of the 16th century with a mass of up to one and a half kg are quite high-speed blades, despite the considerable weight. The disadvantages of this position of the balance point are two points:
1. Extremely weak chopping blow even with a blade. When working on a more or less well-hardened opponent, this is of decisive importance (on an unharmed enough secant-cutting blow).
2. When an attempt is made to inflict a powerful chopping blow (or a hard parry with a blade of the same powerful blow of the enemy), a vibration occurs from the blow to the blade. With this position of the center of gravity, one of the focuses of vibration falls on the handle, which is very unpleasant and tiring during a long battle (for example, in a battle). Because a powerful blow hits the brush.

Regarding forging the cutting edge of the blade. Everything is simple and fast enough here. A similar thing is done almost every day when mowing grass oblique. When the scythe blade rules. Before finishing the edge with a donkey, they beat it with a hammer on a small special anvil (forgot the common name).

[tanit]

But in those days there was no fencing, that is, an exchange of attacks, parrying with a blade of a blade, etc., especially a high-speed one. The point of the protorapier is to deliver one blow to an unprotected place. There is a photograph of a seal of the Mycenaean period on the Internet - there a guy with a "rapier" with his free hand deflects the shield of a spearman, and with his free hand strikes with a "rapier" in the throat.

[abrakadabre]

Do not confuse or confuse fencing in battle, in a duel outside of battle and modern sports. And ... what do you mean by the term "fencing"?
For all this, even with the transience of a single battle during the battle - a second, this time is enough to carry out a fencing combination with parries and counterattacks.
And in a mass battle, a situation is frequent when you need to shield yourself from one enemy with a shield, and work in a different way with your blade.
A deadly duel can also last extremely rarely for more than several tens of seconds. And from this time, fencers actively work for just a few seconds, catching the enemy on something. This is not a movie fight for you.

For hundreds of years of the developed Middle Ages, whole fencing systems have developed in Europe. And for the whole several thousand years of the active murder of each other with a blade bronze weapon, according to your version, mankind has never thought of anything like this. Strange train of thought. If treatises on this subject from that era have not reached us, does not mean that fencing was not then. Findings of a frankly fencing piercing weapon clearly speaks against your version.

[IS-80]

Quote: abrakadabre

If treatises on this subject from that era have not reached us, does not mean that fencing was not then. Findings of a frankly fencing piercing weapon clearly speaks against your version.

But it does not say anything. Have you seen the shape of the first swords? Does she remind you of anything? I give a hint look at the tips of the copies. Accordingly, the technique of owning such a sword could be a lance.

[tanit]

And I prefer not to call the system or, if you like, the art of waging combat in those distant times - "fencing". Numerous finds - yes, there are. There are slightly less numerous images from the same era. And where is "fencing" there?

Quote: abrakadabre

frankly fencing piercing weapon unambiguously speaks against your version

So frankly stitching or frankly fencing?
And how is a movie fight different from a battle with blunt blades in order not to hurt an opponent in any way?

[abrakadabre]

And I prefer not to call the system or, if you like, the art of waging combat in those distant times - "fencing".

But in vain. Whenever you have different interpretations, you need to start with terms and definitions.

Fencing (German fechten - “fight, fight” [1]) - a system of techniques for possessing hand cold steel in hand-to-hand combat, and striking and repelling blows. Fencing is also called the very process of combat using edged weapons (both real and educational, sports, historical, stage, etc.).

(c) Wicca ...

There are slightly less numerous images from the same era. And where is "fencing" there?

How can you tell about the presence or absence of fencing from a static image without drawing the successive phases of a fight? Also look at the meaning of the term "fencing" given by me above.

So frankly stitching or frankly fencing?

Based on your clearly postulated meaning of "fencing" as a Western European system of sword fighting of the 16-18 centuries, and this is precisely the prevalence of thrusting techniques - the two terms I used together. And no irony.

And how is a movie fight different from a battle with blunt blades in order not to hurt an opponent in any way?

Extremely different. You can’t even imagine how much. Before you try to express the irony about this, you should very carefully fill in the gaps and find out this difference. But only you can do it

[tanit]

Quote: abrakadabre

Based on your explicitly postulated meaning of "fencing" as a Western European system of sword fighting of the 16-18 centuries, and this is precisely the prevalence of stabbing techniques

You're right

Quote: abrakadabre

Extremely different. You can’t even imagine how much. Before you try to express the irony about this, you should very carefully fill in the gaps and find out this difference.

And here ... Well, how would I tell you .. I respect those who forge weapons and armor with their own hands. I respect those who, according to "static drawings" ( ) and including fantasy, within the limits of historically based assumptions, is trying to portray something similar to a battle. But personally, I see the difference clearly.
With all due respect - a movie fight often looks more honest than a "historically fencing" one
Probably, the time long ago "spent" in "Sursk Blades" on a saber affects me. Perhaps because of this, the irony in relation to the "historical"

[abrakadabre]

The difference between stage fencing and sports fencing is the difference in goals and objectives. The same as between scenic and real combat. Namely:

Combat (and sporting, as a limited subset of combat) - to defeat the opponent. It is desirable as quickly as possible and with the least expenditure of effort, as much as possible.
Stage - show a spectacle. It is advisable not to cripple each other.

To please this, everything has been set:
For combat (and sports) - to deceive the enemy, hide their intentions and inflict maximum damage (for sports, designate such). Surprise action, pressure and power component - directly shown. Moreover, due to the high explosive physical load (especially in armor) it is very important to be very economical in movement. No extra, costly and amplitude movements and poses.
For the stage - the exact opposite - maximum amplitudes, a lot of posturing, direct staging of the whole battle, when both partners know to the smallest detail what kind of movement is following, etc.

[brn521]

Quote: abrakadabre

Combat (and sporting, as a limited subset of combat) - to defeat the opponent.

In this case, it seems that this very fighting fencing, which was further developed, killed the bronze rapier. Neither Greek nor Roman nor anyone else's combat formation found combat use for a long narrow piercing blade. Anyway, even in the event of a duel, I’m something bad, I imagine the role of the rapier in the battle against the shieldman. In this case, the rapier can easily lose control over the distance, because the enemy will most likely try to break into melee under cover of a shield, in which the rapier will be almost completely useless (you can’t get a lot of guards). Another thing is that the foil shielder's shieldman will not catch up :).

[abrakadabre]

However, the medieval tight formation knew relatively long blades. At least much longer than the gladius. Like the Carolingian swords, they also fought on foot together with the wall of shields and at the same time they are quite adapted for the injection of the weakly equipped. What are the later swords of a thread of musketeers or rondaschiers in the Spanish thirds.
So this is not entirely the case.

[brn521]

Quote: abrakadabre

However, the medieval tight formation knew relatively long blades.

However, I do not recall anything similar to types A-C from the above classification. Yes, even with stiffeners.

Quote: abrakadabre

What are the later swords of a thread of musketeers or rondaschiers in the Spanish thirds.

There are serious differences from the times of antiquity, the Roman Empire and even the Middle Ages. The cavalry reached its climax, the firearm is actively developing. Steel is smelted already in fairly decent volumes, and high-quality plate armor has become available to simple mercenaries. We see that, on the one hand, the armor has become very effective against chopping one-handed weapons. On the other hand, mobility is important, so this armor is incomplete. In this situation, a relatively light and well-controlled long blade apparently allowed access to vulnerable parts. And the rondash allowed not to be afraid of close combat and required less space for maneuvering.
As for the Bronze Age rapier, it still seems to me that the lack of material laid the foundation for their prevalence. When used, the cutting-cutting edge must be sharpened or polished at least regularly. The tip is less demanding, and does not require such a consumption of material.

[Aljavad]

And how is a movie fight different from a battle with blunt blades in order not to hurt an opponent in any way? smile

How Jackie Chan's films differ from a karate tournament

[Riv]

Speaking of sports fencing ... Have you seen the sports rapier? How did she bend on impact, too, noticed? Its weight is about half a kilo and its length is just over a meter. It is quite comparable to the sword in the starting photo. But the sport foil is steel and straightens after bending. And the blade is made of bronze - it will not straighten. It will remain so crooked, and it is even easier to bend it than steel. It does not matter at all whether the fighter can stab the enemy with a bronze dildo. After that, he will remain with a weapon in the form of the letter "G" (or even generally in the form of "Z") and with approximately the same characteristics.
:)))

[tanit]

Well, well ... And what is the similarity of the sports rapier with the Mycenaean "thrusting" sword? And, in the presence of a tip? For the tetrahedral (rectangular) section of the sword is not observed. Yes, and trihedral too, so even the sword does not look like a sports sword.

[abrakadabre]

Reasoning, sucked out of a finger. Moreover, in the presence of completely unambiguous field tests of replicas that refute your fantasies.

[Riv]

To cut a plastic bottle is full-scale tests ??? Hmm ... :))) Strength test passed.

[tanit]

Oh, sports rapier? In vain I called you a humanist, you’re just a beast

[tanit]

Oh, sports rapier? In vain I called you a humanist, you’re just a beast

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

To cut a plastic bottle is full-scale tests ???

It is rather a test of the cutting edge. Moreover, the cutting edge made of crappy iron can also cope with this matter. Another thing is that if you use the same iron blade to slide across a dry piece of wood across the fibers, you get big dents on this very edge. In general, replicas are complete only when they are tested in business. Specific manufacturers are indicated in the article, even a specific price is indicated. And that means that there is probably somewhere suitable video that I would like to watch. Otherwise, potential buyers can take these cues for regular souvenirs. Maybe someone will find? I am not strong in English.

[kalibr]

I saw this video on some English site, but I see so much of everything that it’s blinking in my eyes and I don’t remember what it is and where. But I saw the text and listened. There was just talk about the balance that he was shifted forward at the leafy sword and the blade itself leads the hand. I already knew that and look no further, after the bank was chopped up. But you can find on the web.

[abrakadabre]

Search for yourself. These tests, in addition to the one-time, shown in the article, chopping a bottle of water, a wagon and a cart. A large number of masters. Even on the net, finding a couple of hundred videos on this topic is not a problem. Not to mention text descriptions, publications, and discussions in the respective forums.
They included a fool here. Go and get enlightened. If there is doubt and real interest to grow wiser on the topic, if you please, spend your time and effort on this. Nobody is obligated to do this for you.

[Riv]

Am I obliging you to something? In no case. :)
I hope it’s not worth reminding that strength tests are carried out in a slightly different way, not on water bottles? Well, there is a stress-strain state and all that ... But I don’t have to look for anything. I already know that the product in the starting picture can be bent by hands.

[abrakadabre]

1. Tests are different. For example, hitting targets similar to those that might occur in battle - cutting carcasses. Also a normal test. And not exclusively at test benches in the laboratory.
2. Static tests for a blade ... What should characterize it? Where in battle can there be such loads?
3. I have already made sure that you "don't need to look for anything." Reading, learning new things, thinking is not your profile. After all, you are the "absolute truth" that does not require criticism.
4. Some may bend and scrap with their hands. But this is not an indicator of the unsuitability of scrap for its intended purpose.

[Riv]

Everything in your head is messed up. Chopping carcasses, static tests, crowbars ...
I don’t need to bend this dumbass. I already know that I can do this. I do not need to learn anything new in this regard. Enough knowledge. Or do you really doubt that I can do this? So you can check it yourself. Take a meter long strip of bronze with a section of 30x3 and go. Nothing complicated.

[brn521]

Quote: abrakadabre

Static tests for a blade ... What should characterize this?

It seems like a famous test. We fix the end of the blade, we remove the handle by 30 degrees and release. Must return on its own to exactly the original position. The blade must maintain its shape during loading. If it is even a little bent, it pretty seriously affects the chopping and piercing properties. When cutting, the blade should go smoothly. The bent person will try to roll over due to the center of mass displaced to the side of the line of symmetry, wasting part of the impact energy in vain. When injected, the direct blade also transfers energy to the target more efficiently. Bent spends part of the energy on its own deformation. Well and most importantly, a flexible blade can be made thin and light enough, because small deformations are not critical for him.

Quote: abrakadabre

Where in battle can there be such loads?

The blade hits the armor - shield or helmet, for example. Or bone. Or between the ribs, after which the enemy can also collapse. In general, there are a lot of options in which a normal blade with a normal weight bends anyway. Of course, there are also "crowbars" with a powerful blade, which you can only bend against a concrete pillar. But they are too heavy, even a trained fighter will rebut with them in a couple of minutes. And they are poorly controlled - it's easier to take something with a pole.

[abrakadabre]

It seems like a famous test. We fix the end of the blade, we remove the handle by 30 degrees and release. Must return on its own to exactly the original position. The blade must maintain its shape during loading.

The elasticity test for the examination of a long blade in the same Ministry of Internal Affairs is conducted in a slightly different way:
The tip is rigidly fixed horizontally and a standard force is applied to the handle. I don’t remember exactly, it seems like a load of 10 kg. If, after removing the load, the blade restores its original shape - the blade can be considered a cold weapon. If residual deformation remains, it is considered that this is a mass-dimensional or outward appearance mock-up of a weapon. At the same time, the certificate says that the presented sample is a souvenir weapon.
As far as I know, no one bends the blade at a given angle (for example, 30 degrees) using the technique. Because the technique is the same for all samples. And the crowbar-like sword will bend to that amount with an effort of hundreds of kg. A sports sword from half a kilogram. I could be wrong.

[brn521]

Quote: abrakadabre

Nobody is obligated to do this for you.

Well, actually, writers of popular science articles usually do this. Set out in an accessible form and suggest where you can get it if you need more. On bronze in runet ... Google sees this very article, and that’s all. If the manufacturers of bronze swords concocted some kind of video, then there is certainly a lot of it missing.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

the sports rapier is steel and straightens after bending

Bronze springs also straighten after deformation. The truth in the article is not a word about hardening. But it is not a fact that malleable lead bronze will normally spring without heat treatment.

[Riv]

I'll tell you a terrible secret. Just don’t tell anyone. In fact, bronze can be made as elastic as carbon steel. But! It is necessary to carefully maintain the ratio of the main and alloying components and the conditions of heat treatment of the finished product. The ancient blacksmith could not provide any of this. Well, they did not know how to receive beryllium in ancient Egypt. Stupidly did not know how.
And still, even such bronze will be inferior to the same steel, for example, in hardness, and it is impossible to forge beryllium bronze in principle. She will crumble. If the sword in the starting picture is made of such bronze, then it certainly will not bend. He will break.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

it’s impossible to forge beryllium bronze in principle

Are there any archaeological specimens from beryllium bronze? As far as I remember, there are quite accessible materials. Copper, tin, lead, arsenic. Lead bronze can be forged. Many bronzes also harden well. But in this case it is not said about quenching. A sword with such parameters must certainly spring. Too big and light. A historical example of a sword of poor quality is the iron sword, which had to be straightened about the knee right during the battle. There were such, and they fought. And everyone knew that this was junk, and the reconstructors would not even have thought of reconstructing them.

Quote: Riv

It is necessary to carefully maintain the ratio of the main and alloying components

In fact, there are ranges. Simply, there are the most optimal ratios, which are used now. But this does not mean that the remaining ratios are worthless.

[Riv]

The range there is fractions of a percent. And sometimes hundredths, because dopants also sometimes interact with each other. The sword, in which the arsenic was transferred, will not spring. I guarantee. Bronze will become brittle.

You simply do not know what alloying is and how complicated this process is. What strength is and how it differs from resilience - you also do not know. So: steel with the required strength can be achieved in a very simple way: by welding several strips, because its main alloying component is carbon. Moreover, determining the elasticity of steel is also much simpler than that of bronze. Read above: the bronze billet was cast and only then could its properties be evaluated? But for critical iron already during the initial forging it is visible what happened. It is very simple to pick up three strips, weld them forging and you get a very decent blade, elastic, strong and well-sharpened.

That is why the Iron Age came: iron was more difficult to obtain, process and sharpen. It had to be protected from corrosion. It could not be remelted, and when the blade broke, the metal usually disappeared. But the strength of the blade outweighed any flaws. Here's the answer to the question: why were pointed bronze rapiers made? They are poorly suited for injection, but for chopping and cutting strikes are unsuitable at all.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

So: steel with the required strength can be achieved in a very simple way: by welding several strips

Not such an easy way. Better to do without it. Because Blade defects often develop along these bands. And the forging itself is also capable of introducing its own defects. It's a shame when it is already detected during hardening. Even more offensive if with a test cabin. And completely unacceptable if in battle.

Quote: Riv

The range there is fractions of a percent.

Not so much a fraction of a percent. As they say, according to the tin content of 1-2%, bronze is forged cold. 5% - it is necessary to warm to red heat. 15% - not forged at all. However, there lead also makes corrections towards ductility, but if it is more than 3-4%, this leads to a tendency to segregate the alloy. This is unpleasant, but non-lethal and you can fight it, especially when casting rather thin blanks of swords, and not statues / bells / cannons of any kind.

Quote: Riv

You simply do not know what alloying is and how complicated this process is.

Depends on the alloy. Some alloys are generally created only in zero gravity.

Quote: Riv

Read above: the bronze billet was cast and only then could its properties be evaluated?

And that’s great. With hand-forged objects, and even from crappy material, it is much more complicated. The jamb can come out already during the operation of the sword. And re-melting an unsuccessful harvest is not so difficult.

Quote: Riv

That is why the Iron Age came: iron was more difficult to obtain, process and sharpen.

On the contrary, it is on every corner. Here, in our swamp during stone-cutting, I didn’t gain age and hundreds of years, but already rusty streams are available. Microorganisms work. Non-ferrous metals have no such distribution.

Quote: Riv

But the strength of the blade outweighed any flaws.

Strength appeared only with the development of metallurgy, which happened not so long ago. And before that, the creation of a truly durable blade was a real shamanism. There were too many opportunities to ditch the workpiece.

Quote: Riv

why were pointed bronze rapiers made? They are poorly suited for injection, but for chopping and cutting strikes are unsuitable at all.

Is not a fact. The difficulty in the cutting is due to the geometry of the blade. And on the properties of the material and strength need proof. We have concrete bronze here. It seems like not passing through any of the guests. But this only means that she did not have a place in domestic production chains, and not that this bronze was bad at all.

[Riv]

The path is not easy, but the whole world followed them. Okay. It is useless to explain something to you. You do not know either chemistry or physics. It is sad.

[brn521]

Quote: tanit

There is a photograph of a seal of the Mycenaean period on the Internet - there a guy with a "rapier" with his free hand deflects the shield of a spearman, and with his free hand strikes with a "rapier" in the throat.

Unless in a duel. Moreover, the spearman is still a fool, it was necessary to throw a shield and take a spear with both hands. And in combat combat an important role is played by the number of copies per meter of front. A guy with a rapier is not enough that he can’t get to the shield, there will be at least two spears against him, and he will also interfere with his spearmen.

[Victor Demchenko]

Quote: abrakadabre

Before finishing the edge with a donkey, they beat it with a hammer on a small special anvil (forgot the common name).

we called this item an anvil.

[Insurgent LC]

that only people can come up with to kill their own kind

[Insurgent LC]

justify the minus

[Forest]

Many thanks to the author for the painstaking work on the articles!

[Turkir]

What stupid people lived in the Bronze Age!
They did not know that their swords were bent and they could not be fought.
And they didn’t have books on fencing, and if they did, nobody could read.
-----
To the insurgent - you forget about the second side of the question: weapons as protection against wild animals and hunting.
These are all survival issues.
And, if the people who lived in the Bronze Age survived, then their weapons worked!

[kalibr]

Yes, the boars did not give them their fangs themselves to the helmets, but the helmets came down to as many as three, not to mention their drawings. And something of them ...

[tanit]

Well, they hardly went to a boar with a sword, if only one of the mighty heroes, yes, those with a club and bare hands could .... It is preferable for a mere mortal to go on a wild boar with a spear - otherwise it is difficult to understand who is hunting for whom.

[abrakadabre]

Since a hunter with a sword came for a boar, and not vice versa, it means it’s clear who hunts
But who will eat whom after the fight, the question is already a little bigger ...

[Jääkorppi]

Super! Thank! And the discussion was informative !!

[kalibr]

Unfortunately, not so much. Because when there are people who know everything and prove it to others with foaming at the mouth, it is not very interesting and not informative. The article itself does not prove anything to anyone. She says: today there is this, this and this. And no more.

[Riv]

God have mercy! Am I against the fact that this is interesting and informative? How else could a person find out such details about an ancient weapon? And then he watches the fencing competition on TV and thinks that it has always been like that. Or he came to the museum, looked at the exhibits and thought that the ancestors were great masters. And here they explain to him popularly: remaking it is more expensive for them, and to be honest, a fencer with a bronze sword is beaten to death by an ordinary bamboo stick.
What did you want? With a longer length, the stick is three times lighter and hits faster. He gave it once on the wrist, knocked out a bronze rapier and do what you want. Musashi method in action.
Of course a useful article.

[Orang]

Bronze Sword Test Video

[kalibr]

Here it is this video! Watch the birch cut and the blade bends. Then he straightened and continued to cut. But the cutting of the shield is especially impressive ... But even with a serrated blade you can easily kill a person! By the way, in the battle in Fermopilsky gorge, Leonid's warriors at the end even broke their iron swords ...

[Riv]

Well ... As predicted: the blade bends. Moreover, the man cuts the rotten stuff with the strongest part of the blade, where its thickness is about a centimeter. And even in its strongest part, with not the most powerful blow, he bent. But this is not a "rapier", a real xyphos, without any tricks like grooves and ribs on the blade. The fighting style is completely different, xyphos came into use when armor was already in full use. The man tells further, as far as I understand, that the blade is specially made and that the reinforced part is designed for cutting through armor. He would have tried to work like this with a "rapier" with an elongated point ...

The bronze there is clearly not arsenic. This is evident from the marks from the steel sword. The metal is quite viscous. Bend in the weak part about the knee? Yes Easy. :)))

[Glot]

Well ... As predicted: the blade bends.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Well ... As predicted: the blade bends.

Yes, it seems like the best video on this topic. Material is an order of magnitude worse than steel. The combat blade must keep its shape. Apparently in the case of bronze, too, without quenching in any way.

Quote: Riv

The man tells further, as I understand it, that the blade is specially made and that the reinforced part is designed to cut through the armor.

Maybe for a piercing? It’s not bad at all. Chops bad and bends at the same time, unless directed perpendicular to the surface. It seems to be cut into the shield, but it is not clear what kind of shield it is. A full-fledged laminated shield holds a punch at least no worse than a dry beam. Despite the fact that in the felling of the tree the blade did not give out any miracles.

Quote: Riv

He would have tried to work like this with a "rapier" with an elongated point ...

There certainly can not do without hardening.

[Orang]

The sword is flat. if he didn’t bend like that with a dol. It’s chopping normally, the branch is springing all the same, there and not any machete would be able to do it right away. For its time, it’s quite a weapon.

[Riv]

Do you really think that the presence of dol increases the strength of the blade ???

[Orang]

Yes, dales and ribs increase the strength of the blade. You are amazingly stubborn people.

[kalibr]

By the way, C1 blades are almost cruciform, similar to a bayonet to the Russian three-ruler. And by the way, no one argues that they did not bend. They are bent in the Museum of Athens. But this does not prevent them from being weapons. And there are notches on them. That is, there was contact with another metal. In general, I somehow lost the thread of the conversation. What are we talking about? That they were not there when they were full, that they were ritual, when there were notches on them, or that they were not used when there were heels torn from a blow? That this superweapon has not been cured anywhere, that the bronze sword bends is a priori understandable. But there was no other. And without fish. True, at first, I recall, it was argued that the bronze swords of incredible gravity, "a drin weighing in a jar of water." Now it seems to be established that 750 - 1 kg. But they bend. But not "drin"? Is not it?
Well, let them bend. On a fresco from Palos, they prick the bare belly like that.

[Riv]

Damn ... HOW TO EXPLAIN ???

Here's a man in the video xyphos a centimeter thick, no less - and bends even with a not-so-strong blow, and in the strongest part. If he had a steel sword - he would not bend, but he has bronze, and the strength of bronze is not that of steel. Tattoo on the forehead and look in the mirror every day: STEEL STRONGER BRONZES. What needs to be done so that the blade does not bend? Trivial: thicken it. A bronze sword will normally hold a strike only if it is thicker than one and a half times and of uniform thickness along its entire length. Without any notches, because they reduce the weight of the weapon, but also reduce the strength. Then you’ll chase his hell out and you can really chop them with logs.
Now figure out what it would be like to hold a straight sword one and a half centimeters thick, a little less than a meter long and weighing two kilograms. Have you figured it out? Think easier than a can of water? You are mistaken. The law of leverage works. For a can of water, the center of mass is 15 cm from the palm of the hand, and for a sword, three times further.
Well, you did not hold a long sword in your hand, honestly admit it.

I never said that there were NO thin swords. I said that IN BATTLE THEY ARE USELESS. There is a difference? Once pricked - and in the hand the letter "G". Think you can kick it out? Wrong again. Tales about straightening bent swords - these are fairy tales. Need to explain why?

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Tales about straightening bent swords are fairy tales.

They straightened them with their feet. This is if in battle.

[Riv]

It is incurable. :)))
Perform a field experiment. Take the steel strip ... Although not. You cannot bend a steel strip. Take the welding electrode, bend it with your hands at a right angle, and then try to straighten. At least with your feet, even with your teeth, if that comes to mind. When straightening this wire (wire, not a sufficiently thick blade!) Fails, I will explain to you why this happened.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Perform a field experiment.

I have already done experiments. My first children's home-made sword was from an iron grate. Straightened his legs. Not with his hands, there the edge was sharpened to razor sharpness, a couple of scars still remain on the fingers. Then I had to bring to the ideal with a hammer, putting it on something flat. But it was enough. I would have forgotten about this matter a long time ago. But in history there is Roman evidence that the Gauls fought with iron swords of disgusting quality. Which had to be straightened by legs directly during the battle. And the Romans easily substituted the shafts of spears under the blows of such swords, since the swords from this deteriorated more than the shafts. Iron is disgusting material. Easy to bend, rust quickly in the air. By the way, I covered him with paraffin, otherwise you won’t get enough oil. And I never managed to temper it. On the contrary, only the blade ruined. It became possible to plan with a table knife (a good one, by the way, made of steel, not stainless steel) almost like a piece of wood.

Quote: Riv

When to straighten this wire (wire, not a thick enough blade!)

The fact of the matter is that this is not a wire or a piece of roofing iron. In my case - almost scrap with a triangular cross section. And the bend turned out to be small, but I didn’t beat flat - nobody needs this. Just at an angle like a tree with an ax. Across a dry tree, even the most beautiful blade will not master. And I still had noticeable dents on the edge.
And the alleged wire example involves a pretty strong kink in order to be effective. There, from such a deformation in the crystal lattice, local hardening occurs. We did not have any compromise, but there was FTT, if that. In order for this case to manifest itself seriously on the blade, it is necessary to bend it too much, there are no conditions for cutting it, unless the blade is clamped in a vice.

[abrakadabre]

Where and how in battle can you bend at least a bronze, at least a steel sword at 90 degrees under a small radius? It will be easier to bend the strip by the way than a round electrode, because the electrode rotates easily during extension in the hands. But the strip is not. And there is nothing to distort.

[Aljavad]

In general, I lost something in the thread of the conversation. What are you talking about?

The thing is that we are all here - we don’t know shkolota, chemistry and physics. One Reeve is smart, assembled the installation.

[Riv]

Note: I didn’t say that!
:)))

[abrakadabre]

It's about the fact that you imagine yourself here as a steep competitor and the only serious manufacturer in the world. All the rest according to your version of amateurs and playful children. But according to your nonsense and obstinacy, everyone can see the exact opposite.
Everyone has already told you many times, from very well-reasoned polite words to plain text: if you don’t know nichrome in the question, go and study, study, enlighten, and don’t report like children and don’t teach people that they understand more about you in this particular issue.
Moreover, you personally do not know any of your opponents in order to assert that these people, in comparison with you, do not understand materials science, the processing of metals and their alloys, production processes and other modern serious things. For example, the fact that, in my free time from work, I am engaged in a "frivolous" reconstruction of armor and weapons in the smithy does not mean that during the main working hours I am a five-year-old child picking my nose.

[brn521]

Quote: kalibr

What are we talking about?

What kind of weapon is this, atypical, why there are so many, by whom, how and when it was used.

Quote: kalibr

By the way, C1 blades are almost cruciform, similar to a bayonet to the Russian three-ruler.

Those. they couldn't even cut normally. There is a suspicion that most of the metal in the structure could be replaced with wood or a laminate based on it.

Quote: kalibr

that the bronze sword bends is a priori understandable

This is just incomprehensible. This pure copper bends. But there is bronze and solid, and springs are made of it.

Quote: kalibr

But there was no other

If later they began to cast more powerful and shorter blades, then it could be then.

Quote: kalibr

Well, let them bend. On a fresco from Palos, it’s just such a stab in the bare stomach

There's a sword like F. And we have a problem with AS type blades. On the fresco they are functionally replaced by darts. A logical question arises, why did the ancients translate bronze to dubious-looking blades?

[Troll-old]

here are the sections of the bronze blades

[Riv]

I am surprised too. Not to know the most elementary things and climb to comment ... Dol on the blade reduces its weight, but also reduces strength. The presence of dol turns the blade into an I-beam. But the I-beam is in no way stronger than a solid bar with the same dimensions.
Learn sopromat.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Do you really think that the presence of dol increases the strength of the blade ???

We want to get a blade of a certain format and weight. If the blade is continuous, then this is a useless consumption of material and mass, because the material in those places is not efficient enough. It is better to redistribute the material by knocking out dales on the blade. As a result, a blade with dales is stronger than a solid blade similar in weight.

[abrakadabre]

A blade with a dolly cannot be stronger than a blade without a dol. You at least say something here, this fact will not change from this. However, a solid blade will weigh more. This means, ceteris paribus, a warrior in battle will get tired faster and wave a blade slower than his opponent, who will have a blade with a valley. The difference of 100-200 grams is very significant.
Dol allows to reduce the mass of the blade with a COMPARISONLY insignificant decrease in strength. Also, along with other measures, such as the weight of the guard and top, but to a lesser extent, the dol allows you to adjust the position of the center of gravity of the blade, which is extremely important for balance and directly affects the convenience of fencing.
For example, a combat sword from the end of the 15th to the beginning of the 16th centuries weighing 1,5 kg (with a balance point near the guard) is easier to FENTER than a battle hatchet with a mass of 700-900 grams (with a balance point near the ax head) .
Another important function of the dol is manifested during hardening. With a sharp cooling of the blade in the quenching bath, the dol allows you to reduce the possible curvature of the blade from permanent deformation or in case of an error with the angle of immersion of the blade in the quenching bath.
This allows you to worry less about correcting the shape of the blade, if during hardening it led. Especially in the case of deformation in the plane of the blade (the sword bends into a saber) or screw.

And, by the way, in the Middle Ages the valleys were not often beaten out, which requires highly qualified blacksmith craftsmen, but they were trimmed on annealed blade by apprentices whose labor was worth a penny. There are both figurative sources and tools that have survived to this day.

[brn521]

Quote: abrakadabre

A blade with a dolly cannot be stronger than a blade without a dol.

Therefore, I indicated the conditions, wrote: "a blade with valleys is stronger than a solid blade of the same weight."

Quote: abrakadabre

For example, a combat sword from the end of the 15th to the beginning of the 16th centuries weighing 1,5 kg (with a balance point near the guard) is easier to FENTER than a battle hatchet with a mass of 700-900 grams (with a balance point near the ax head) .

Not everything is decided by the center of mass. There is also a mass distribution along the length and, accordingly, the moment of inertia. This is also included in the concept of balance. The hatchet can also be shifted to the center of mass close to the handle.

Quote: abrakadabre

This allows you to worry less about correcting the shape of the blade, if during hardening it led.

Can I fix it without re-hardening? Interesting, it will be necessary to search.

[moskowit]

From your, quite the same, little correct polemic, I learned new things for myself. I never thought that bronze is forged and even hardened. So above his head is busy, now we need to expand knowledge on this issue. I humbly thank the Author, his supporters and his opponents ...

[ratcatcher]

By the way, if we consider that from 1700 to 1150 the fastening of the tip of the spear was improved, we can assume that this was one of the reasons for reducing the length of the piercing sword.
It is better to throw a spear with a loosely fixed tip. But with a spear with a high-quality tubular base, you can fight with great success in hand-to-hand combat. Then the spear becomes the main weapon, and the sword is used for close combat.
And the factor of the transition of policies to mass construction apparently also affected, as the author of the article indicated.

[sub307]

An interesting article, I look forward to continuing ....

[Riv]

Well, let's summarize the "discussion"? :)))

The Xperd's knowledge is impressive. Odin straightens the iron blade with a kick (Bruce Lee spins in the coffin). Others hone fencing with bronze foils (d'Artagnan tries to remove his eyes from his forehead). The third tests the strength of the blade by hitting a plastic water bottle (especially bronze rapiers, yeah). At the fourth, the dale on the blade strengthens this very blade (do not allow itsyk with nails to the construction site under fear!) God be with him, with metallurgy and resistance to materials, but even basic knowledge of chemistry and physics is absent from people in principle.

Guys, there are successful weapons and there are unsuccessful ones. A restorer, even if he had seven spans in his forehead, could not compensate for the shortcomings of an unsuccessful weapon. He just copies it as he can - that's all. And since his weapon will never go into battle, we can say that he made a toy. Well, what is the demand for toy craftsmen? What, for that matter, is the historical value of his products? She is zero. What if the handle was not ivory, but wooden? What if an ancient specimen was not forged? Nobody did an analysis of the structure of the metal. How was the heat treatment carried out? The restorer simply showed how the ancient master could work. But whether he really worked like that is a big question.

In general, no hypocrite is needed. Let's be honest: restoration is a hobby. Game for adults. And nothing more. For this honor I have. :)

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Well, to summarize the discussion? :)))

And let's ... I, here I could not stand it and registered for this on the site ...

Quote: Riv

The knowledge of iksperds is impressive.

YES ... Your knowledge is pretty fun;)

Quote: Riv

One straightens an iron blade with a kick (Bruce Lee spins in a coffin).

What a horror! On the other hand, this is "iron", not "steel", I don’t know about Bruce, but men bend "iron" horseshoes ...

Quote: Riv

Others hone their bronze rapier fencing technique.

What a horror !!! And in the Red Army, in general ... they fenced on carbines ...

Quote: Riv

At the fourth dol on the blade this same blade strengthens (do not let the construction site under pain of itsk with nails!)

What a horror !!! There’s nothing to even comment ... All the designers in itsk ... All the books on the structural strength of the plastic ... Everything to do whole ... from pure iron ...

Quote: Riv

God is with him, with metal science and sopromat, but even basic knowledge of chemistry and physics is absent in people in principle.

What a horror !!! And, I’ve always been sure that sopromat and metal science from the evil one, it is necessary to learn the mechanics of continuous media and FTT ... but why ??? these ... tensors, vectors, nonlinear equations ...

Quote: Riv

Guys, there are successful weapons and there are unsuccessful ones. A restorer, even if he had seven spans in his forehead, could not compensate for the shortcomings of an unsuccessful weapon. He just copies it as he can - that's all. And since his weapon will never go into battle, we can say that he made a toy. Well, what is the demand for toy craftsmen? What, for that matter, is the historical value of his products? She is zero. What if the handle was not ivory, but wooden? What if an ancient specimen was not forged? Nobody did an analysis of the structure of the metal. How was the heat treatment carried out? The restorer simply showed how the ancient master could work. But whether he really worked like that is a big question.

What a horror! An unclouded stream of consciousness ... How much do you need to slaughter with a toy blade to make it a combat one? Where does such a criterion come from? Abstracting, let's imagine that tomorrow I will be caught by the valiant law enforcement forces with the drone from Figure 1 ... will your words be an excuse in court. "Well, that you, mister judge, this is just a toy, I was not with this drone in a hot battle ..." I'm afraid the court will not acquit me ...

Quote: Riv

In general, no hypocrite is needed. Let's be honest: restoration is a hobby. Game for adults. And nothing more. For this honor I have. :)

In general, you do not need to be a hypocrite ...

[Riv]

You are not up to date. Men horseshoes are not BEND. Horseshoes they KILL.
Further, I could not read your post. Laughed. Confess: are you one of these too? I mean the reenactors. Purely for fun: try bending the unbent horseshoe back to make it look like it was.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

You are not up to date. Men horseshoes are not BEND. Horseshoes they KILL.

Those. You can UNBEND the iron ... replace in my post "bend" with "unbend", it will be even better.

Quote: Riv

Further, I could not read your post.

Not mastered ... many bukof ???

Quote: Riv

Laughed.

Do you laugh at the word tensor ??? I still know a lot of such nice words ... contact ... laugh ...

Quote: Riv

Admit it: are you one of these too?

Of these, or of those about which you are?

Quote: Riv

I mean the reenactors.

AHA, you, apparently, were embarrassed by the news of the existence of abstract thinking ... But then you read it all the same ... Why did you lie? NOT GOOD...

Quote: Riv

Purely for fun: try bending the unbent horseshoe back to make it look like it was.

Give TWO ... Now I will lace up the boots and bend and bend again and again ...

[Riv]

Well, exactly from these ... The last time I saw such a reaction was when I said that the historicity of tank models in WoT is rather arbitrary and substantiated my point of view. What started here !!! The main-caliber reactive shit guns turned on at full power - touched the beloved toy! Really, if there were at least one inquisitor among the shkoloty, I would burn at the stake from "Tigers" and "KV". The next day, the topic was over forty pages. The discussion began to subside. I had to add napalm.
Your reaction is one to one like those of those "tankers". The complete absence of logic and critical attitude to their own knowledge. Well, think for yourself: what can you talk about with a person who does not distinguish "oppression" from "unbend"? Meanwhile, for a steel horseshoe, this is critical.

[marline]

So I’m thinking: there’s nothing to talk about with you ...
You are poisoned by your "techie" education and bloated PCS. At the same time, you do not know either the Russian language or physics and chemistry, constantly demonstrating this. Want a free tip: educate yourself.
PS no, I'm not a reenactor, I just know the physics ...
PPS to troll poor tank lovers is not good ...
PPPS but by the way, you should not engage in self-education, so at least you can neighing ...

[Riv]

Why should I do education if I am already poisoned by it ???
Thanks, laughed. :)))

[abrakadabre]

Have you been banned on YouTube? Horseshoes bend (that is, bring the ends closer), and bend (that is, on the contrary, bend the ends), and twist with a screw (that is, bend in the transverse plane).
You are already pretending to be an idiot 100500 times. Any person from the context understood that prod "bending" means changing the original shape of the horseshoe by the force of the hands. Without specifying the direction of bending. And only here you start to get used to terminology. This is because there is nothing to say on the merits of the question.

[marline]

In vain you are trying to explain this to him ... For riv, "bend" and "unbend" are different types of deformation.
But idiomatic expressions, due to ignorance of the Russian language, he does not understand at all.
It is useless ...

[Riv]

Poisoned by technical education, it hints that for an asymmetric part, flexion and extension are really two completely different things. Different efforts, completely different changes in the structure of the material. About the difference between bending and twisting, I will not even stutter. Abracadabr has now issued such a pearl ... But you still won’t believe me? The experiment with the electrode, as I take a look, was never done. I’m telling you: try to straighten the electrode-bent in half.

Guys, relax. The techie is a troll of the humanities - what's new? This is an extremely simple task. It is enough to explain something in obscure, but remotely familiar terms. The gum will decide that it will be powdered with a brain and burst out. FOOD!!! The techie knows that he is right and pours napalm with a smile, making the opponent burn with unquenchable fire. In this regard, the humanities are no different from the student. Actually, in love for toys, too.

So calm down and can continue to play with your pieces of iron. See only: do not get hurt.

[marline]

It’s a pity that these terms are clearly unfamiliar to you

[marline]

There is no term "twisting", there is "twisting", learn the materiel ...

[marline]

Although, you are probably used to "twisting" the nuts, for your level the most is ...

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

A restorer, even if he had seven spans in his forehead, would not be able to compensate for the shortcomings of an unsuccessful weapon.

Will be able. But this will no longer be a replica of the very weapons with which our ancestors once fought. For example, you can make bronze swords and rapiers, similar to those shown in the illustrations, but from a more suitable bronze and more efficient processing.

Quote: Riv

Nobody did an analysis of the structure of the metal.

Conducted, quite often, and for many samples. This allows a better determination of the belonging of a sample to a particular territory and period.

Quote: Riv

And since his weapon will never go into battle, we can say that he made a toy. Well, what is the demand for toy craftsmen? What, for that matter, is the historical value of his products?

Oh great. You have a clear path to the sites of katan lovers. Look, they are unenlightened, they do not understand, they are ready to shell out serious money for an authentic katana forged from a real tamahagane. This is unacceptable, urgently open their eyes and bring the light of your vague memories of the school physics course.

[Riv]

I already told you that your knowledge is incurable? The discussion with you does not interest me in the least.

[marline]

Wonderful article, I read it with pleasure! ... Photos are wonderful. Still, there is some kind of charm in bronze swords ...

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Guys, relax. The techie is a troll of the humanities - what's new?

Trolling the humanities is right. Humanities should work out rigor of thinking and clarity of presentation. To read, for example, criticism of the Fomenkovskaya HX - there are many frankly weak articles.
It’s just that there wasn’t a techie here who was trolling the humanities. Not at that level.