Military Review

Normal scientific chronology

116
- I do not think that Van Gogh his paintings were worth such hard work.
- So he was Van Gogh.

- All this is true, but it’s known that in his entire life he has sold only one painting. And your father, to perpetuate his tragic genius ... has already sold two.
"How to steal a million", 1966


Discussions periodically flare up on HE pages historical chronology. So it is obvious that this topic will be very interesting for many. So, what is it that this historical chronology or dating represents? And this is the definition of the age of archaeological finds. The relative and absolute dating are different.



Part of the crater with the image of the chariot and the soldiers. Find in the tomb number XXUMX, Enkomi, Cyprus. 67 Dating - 1400 BC. Inaccuracy of everything in 1350 years! (British museum)

There are a lot of methods of absolute dating today. So if you are not satisfied with one method, you can check it with two or three. The most common is radiocarbon analysis. Many have heard about it, but how long have it been used, and what is its essence? It was discovered in the 40 years of the twentieth century. And he was offered the first time by a professor at the University of Chicago, Willard Frick Libby. In 1960, for that, he won the Nobel Prize.

Well, and its essence is based on ... the work of the school electroscope! As is known, this is a metal rod to which light leaflets are attached. If you touch it with something electrified, they will receive the same charge and push away from each other. But when the radioactive element is brought to it, the electroscope is discharged. At an altitude of five kilometers, it is discharged even faster than at sea level, which proves that invisible cosmic radiation is poured from space to Earth. On Earth, when it enters the atmosphere, it causes changes in atoms. Thus, carbon irradiation forms carbon-14. It differs from the usual one in that it has two more neutrons in its core. It is estimated that 7 kg of the C-14 radiocarbon annually arises in the Earth’s atmosphere and the same amount decays. It is formed at an altitude of 15 km, is oxidized by oxygen in the air and is dispersed in the atmosphere. Then he gets into the plants. Plants eat animals, and so it falls into them. Man eats both animals and plants, therefore, he also accumulates. But as soon as an object of nature dies, the carbon accumulates in it ceases and begins to decay. The decay rate is absolutely certain: 5730 years is the period of its half-life. It will take more time - carbon will be less, and vice versa. In general, you only need to measure how much carbon C-14 is left in one or another object, which archaeologists have found and ... "it's in the bag." That is, we will know how many years have passed since the death of a living organism until the present. There are special meters that allow you to measure residual carbon. They are now available in many cities of our country.


Cylindrical seal from Crete. You can also find out the age by the stone itself, but it is easier to do it by its clay imprint, if only it is nearby. (Louvre)

Similarly, the age of volcanic lava can be measured in the same way. During eruption, lava containing radioactive particles is poured over long distances from the volcano. And carried ashes! Then the ash from the water hardens, the lava hardens and here we are ready to "watch of centuries." Indeed, in the ashes and lava, the disintegration of radioactive elements immediately began. Its speed is also known. Therefore, it is enough to place a piece of ancient lava or ash into a special device, and it will be known how long this eruption has been. Well, if our ancestor left traces on the precipitated volcanic dust, then we can say for sure when it was. After all, in the air containing water vapor, the ash hardens very quickly.

Next comes the geomagnetic method. Its essence is that the magnetic poles of the Earth periodically disappear and changes signs from plus to minus. And over the past four million years, it turns out, there were four major epochs of polarity reversal. Brunhes (direct), which began 700 thousands of years ago and continues now. Matuyama (reverse) - from 0,7 to 2,43 million years ago. Gauss (direct) - from 2,43 to 3,23 million years ago and Gilbert (reverse) - 3,23 to 4,45 million years ago. Each epoch has periods when the polarity changes for a shorter period - the so-called episodes. The earliest finds of ancient people fall at the end of the Gauss epoch, when in a short period of time - from 3,06 to 2,8 million ago at least four times the polarity of the Earth's geomagnetic poles changed!

A very “curious thing” is the archeomagnetic method. Its essence is that the clay can be magnetized, but it is only necessary to burn it, as if its magnetism is imprinted into it, and by its intensity one can determine the time of burning bricks or ceramics. That is why, by the way, archaeologists often rejoice in the findings of ceramics, often quite plain, more than a gold bracelet or a bronze sword. These pieces make it possible to date a particular excavated layer.

The thermoluminescence method helps to clarify C-14 and dendrochronology dating. Its essence is that if ancient ceramics or soil is heated to a temperature 400 - 500 degrees Celsius, then they will glow. And the stronger, the older this item. And modern ceramic products and the soil do not glow when heated! That is, if, as some conspiracy theorists say, many artifacts are made recently and recently buried in the ground to mislead historians (why is it incomprehensible!), Ceramics, for example, will show it instantly. Well, if there is no ceramics among the finds, it will be suspicious. Since all finds during excavations are typologized, that is, they are divided into classes, classes into types, and types into types. Finds are summarized and compared with other similar sets of things. And there are “standard” sets, which are just the most difficult to fabricate, and non-standard - which will immediately receive increased attention. But theories are built on typical artifact sets, so it does not make sense to forge unique, but devoid of ceramics. Stories about this are only for people ignorant!

Normal scientific chronology

"Chronicle of Froissart." The British fight the Scots led by King David Bruce (1341). (National Library of France). Well, who will dare to fake it, or create a copy contradicting its content?

By the way, it is very difficult to fake today and ancient ink. Indeed, in the past they were made from ink nuts. Today such ink can be made, but ... they will have the entire periodic table in the radionuclide variant after heavy nuclear tests. And it is enough to subject the text to radiological analysis of the composition of the ink to find out when it is done. Comes to the aid and spectral analysis. Ancient ink on pieces of parchment give few spectral bands, but any modern fake - a lot!

It’s worth remembering 1966, the funny American comedy of the year, “How to Steal a Million?” With starring inimitable Audrey Hepburn and Peter O'Toole. So there she is to her father, artist Charles Bonnet, in great detail tells why the forgeries in marble fail. It turns out already then, in the 60s of the last century, it was very easy to expose them!


Here it is - there is the most famous "Venus Cellini", because of which its owner Charles Bonnet almost lost his "good name" and ... all his income, too. A shot from the movie "How to Steal a Million".

Relative dating is therefore called relative because it does not name exact dates, but it is also very important for archaeologists. The main methods she uses are: stratigraphy, typology, cross-dating, etc. Straigraphy comes from the word "stratum" - a layer. If several layers were found during excavations, it is clear that the deeper the layer, the older it is - that’s all the wisdom. Typological analysis compares finds from different places. If they are almost the same, then it is obvious that they were made at about the same time!


Ceramics from Knossos - such huge jugs for oil and grain. Photo by A. Ponomarev

It is very interesting to date on the change in the intensity of solar radiation (astrophysical method) and even on tape clay at the bottom of water bodies. In summer, the strip is light, because it consists of sand and dust that the wind brings, in winter it is dark, because it contains dead algae and fish. Each pair of strips is one year. Counting the stripes allows you to determine the age of the monument, if the cultural layer is blocked by a layer of tape clay. Well, the study of the ancient pollen of plants and seeds allows you to determine the ancient landscapes and ... restore the history of climate in a particular area.


Mysterious twilight ... and there, in the earth ... finds! Photo by A. Ponomarev

And it turned out that, judging by the deposition of this very pollen, wet periods alternate with dry periods in the same way as day is replaced by night. Hence the opportunity to predict the climate for the future, and in the past to explain the causes of wars and invasions ...

Well, now the most interesting. Being, as we know, determines consciousness. That is, it is material culture that shows us the development of man in past ages. And now look and compare. In the 60 of the last century, the whole history of the Great Patriotic War fit in six volumes. In the USA, for comparison, the history of the Second World War was published in 99 volumes, and in Japan even in 110! Now, namely in May 2015, the 12-volume new edition of the history of the Great Patriotic War is completed. But then, in the USSR, the 20-volume edition “Archeology of the USSR” was prepared and published. It summarizes material from 200 years of excavation! From the Lower Paleolithic to the XIV century! Findings in all zones of the country are considered, material on the history of the Slavs and Ancient Russia is given in detail - as they say, take it and use it, everything is described, everything is dated! The only source of this kind, and what is the volume ?! Here is something to read conspiracy, isn’t it?

The author is grateful to A. Ponomarev for the provided photographs from the island of Crete.
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  1. parusnik
    parusnik 13 October 2015 06: 35 New
    10
    Here's something to conspiracy theorists, right? .... Yes, of course, they will read .. it’s easier, to put forward a dream-idea .. To powder their brains, while realizing that a rare inquisitive reader will get to the bottom of it ... And "legends" go around in minds .. the simplest example is "legends", Catherine II sold Alaska ... It still confuses minds ... About the rest ... I just don't say ... you know ...
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 07: 31 New
      +6
      Once a "digger" came to my house, found a piece of leather crumpled into a ball and said that it was written on it that Penza was founded not in 1663, but in 1552, and that it was WRITTEN ON THIS COMC. I took a magnifying glass, started looking ... I saw nothing. Except for cracks. And he told me - and this is exactly the fissured letter. He barely exhibited him, tempting only by the fact that the museum would understand him, and I am not an expert. And most importantly - even if it is fissured, I do not mind. But why write on a lump? I would straighten and write, and any normal person too!
    2. War and Peace
      War and Peace 13 October 2015 15: 12 New
      +5
      Well, finally, we have waited for a "scientific" and unbiased analysis of the methods of historical dating.

      There are a lot of methods of absolute dating today. So if one method doesn’t suit you, you can test it with two or three


      It is not necessary to carry nonsense methods that are absolutely not equivalent in terms of accuracy and systemic efficiency, i.e. any "geomagnetic" methods of clay artifacts cannot be used for dating or only "theoretically" in practice, the accuracy is very low.

      The most common is radiocarbon analysis. Many have heard of him, but how long have they been using it, and what is its essence? It was discovered back in the 40s of the twentieth century. And he was first proposed by a professor at the University of Chicago, Willard Frick Libby. In 1960, he received the Nobel Prize for this.


      this is not the "most common", but the most basic dating method, and the scope is limited only by organic matter, ie. carbonaceous artifacts.
      Here is just this method and we will analyze how accurate it is.
      The main postulate of Libi on this subject was that the QUANTITY C14 in the atmosphere is CONSTANT. But how can this be?
      Opponents of Libi, for example, mathematician Postnikov, noticed the flaws and congenital defects of the method, namely.
      the source of С14 to the atmosphere is not only space, variable solar activity cannot be accurately predicted, the geomanite activity of the Earth is the same, and therefore, the arrival of 14 into the atmosphere is absolutely unpredictable.
      as well as such reservoirs as the oceans and the surface of the Earth i.e. the ocean and the earth can both take in and absorb C14, and release it back into the atmosphere (the processes of decay and decay of organic matter)
      -anthropogenic human activity, burning forests, fossil fuels, agriculture, all this can be a source of C14.
      -bomb component. Those. The Libi method, which historically was born in the 50s of the 20th century, coincided in time with the MASS APPLICATION of atomic bombs in the atmosphere and in space, as well as on land and on water. ALL of this gave a decent part of C14 to the general composition of the atmosphere. Therefore, to find the same MEDIUM COMPONENT OF C14 ALREADY DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE POSSIBLE. For reasons of at least the unstudied maxima of the decline from 14, i.e., how long should this surge fall.
      -volcanic activity. The removal of c14 by volcanoes is less than from space, but such a component as RELATIVE CARBON content, such as c12, c13, and c14, that plants are all the same to consume, is therefore possible to observe REDUCED CONTENT c14 in relation to TOTAL CONTENTS carbon in general. In practice, this results in a scatter in dating.
      If at the time of the death of the object the content of radiocarbon in the exchange tank differed from the modern one by 1%, then when calculating the age of such a sample, an error of about 80 years will arise; 2% will give an error of 160 years, etc. A deviation of 10% will give an error of 800 years of age, and with even larger deviations the linear law will be violated and a deviation of, say, 20% will lead to an error in determining the age of not 1600 years , and for 1760 years.

      this is not all there are so-called system errors that are not even considered in the articles by Postnikov, Tyurin, Levchenko, namely hardware errors i.e. the errors occurring during the isolation of c14 from the sample for analysis, these methods are laboratory-chemical and cannot but have losses in such experiments ...
      http://new.chronologia.org/volume1/antur.html
      http://new.chronologia.org/volume2/turin2.html
      these are links to the candidate of geological and mineralogical sciences Tyurin AM, well, but he refers his works to other sources - who cares ...
      1. War and Peace
        War and Peace 13 October 2015 15: 36 New
        +1
        the strange article does not say anything about the dendrochronological method, and after all, it is used to calibrate the taxiway.
        Further, by the example of constructing the dendrochronological scale of Novgorod, we will see that linking dendrochronology and RD is not only not correct, but how can I say? - unscientific.


        Building a chronology of trees and tied to the annual rings of trees dug from the road decks of the city, you need to EXACTLY determine the RESPONSE COUNT. This point should have been the trees of the TOP WELL DATED layer of the pavement. But the upper layers are rotten and which layer will correspond to a particular year is unknown. Then the head of the group of archaeologists Yanin made the ACKNOWLEDGE that the LOWER level is known, the lower layer of the bridge, or the intermediate (from other sources, dating from churches) multiplying by the number of layers of 3 per century (no one checked) and dividing by a kind of known amount a layer of 28 layers gives the dating of the Novgorod Pie, 550 years. Yanin falls in the middle of the 16th century, and the remaining layers? And the rest rotted. THIS is his logic. How, why, no answer.
        1. Alex
          Alex 13 October 2015 19: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: War and Peace
          dendrochronological method

          Here I absolutely agree with you, this is one of the least accurate dating methods, but now nobody uses it as the only method for determining age.
      2. kalibr
        13 October 2015 15: 40 New
        0
        Are you my answer? Does your Fomenko recognize the results of radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin or not? But only briefly - yes or no? You can in one word.
        1. War and Peace
          War and Peace 13 October 2015 15: 59 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          Are you my answer? Does your Fomenko recognize the results of radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin or not?


          Well, as usual, you didn’t understand anything from what I wrote, for you the world is black and white yours and ours and to turn on your head you need to ask someone for permission.
          The RD method, with some assumption, is still a scientific method and the thought was laid out by Liby, nevertheless understandable, but it turned out that the method encountered a lot of obstacles and if you take into account and minimize systematic errors, you can get closer to real dates. But for now, everything has been corrupted by dishonest scientists.
          As for the Shroud, as far as I remember, three independent laboratories gave close results of 13 centuries, and this coincides with the FIN studies of the life and death of Christ, therefore it is no less no less to say that the FINs agreed with the RD methodology incorrectly, so it coincided ...
          1. kalibr
            13 October 2015 16: 19 New
            0
            No need to rush brain-diluting words - this can be misinterpreted! Yes or no?
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 13 October 2015 16: 27 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              No need to rush brain-diluting words - this can be misinterpreted! Yes or no?


              that's annoying, how do I know? is it to me now to look for what the FINA said about this? I do not want this is not the point ...
              1. kalibr
                13 October 2015 16: 35 New
                +1
                Ahh, of course, the omenomenoid quiver trembled! The foam of the brain is overheated! Because they RECOGNIZE this dating, like that! And it turns out that in their gates - then YES, and that in strangers - it is FIG YOU A INDIAN HOUSE. And this does not happen in science! And then ALL DATINGS WERE BORN UNTIL THE OPENING OF THE CARBON ANALYSIS. And since he recognizes it, especially 3 of the result, then it is necessary to respect others? They had more independent expertises! The whole laboratory of the USSR Academy of Sciences worked, everything was dated, according to С14, and to clay clays, and to coins in different layers. And it was not there in the past of your amiable TARTARIA. Just one confession in court ... and that’s it! The court has no trust. Because, as if it were possible for one, then for everyone! And if one is honest, then ALL DON'T BE DEFECTIVE! Even techies teach logic at the university, or did you have 3- from it?
                1. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 13 October 2015 17: 11 New
                  +3
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Ah, of course, the Fomenoid trembled in the womb! Styrofoam brain overheated


                  Shpakovsky? Well, how do you not behave beautifully, there are few cultural cultures?

                  And since he recognizes him, especially 3 results, then you need to respect others? They had more independent expertises! The whole laboratory of the USSR Academy of Sciences worked,


                  once said, can you prove that the FINS agreed with RD?

                  Quote: kalibr
                  And there wasn’t there in the past of your lovely TARTARIA


                  Well, the cards then I saw them many hundreds probably, everywhere tartaria, do not believe your eyes? laughing

                  Quote: kalibr
                  and for coins in different layers.


                  by coins, by the way, but do you know that there are a lot of coins of unknown affiliation either by time or by country? This is the very money of the country,
                  which they made us forget ...
                  1. kalibr
                    13 October 2015 17: 24 New
                    -1
                    And I was born on Proletarskaya Street, in a workers 'and peasants' environment, so to speak. It's all from there. The maps survived, but the archives are gone? It's funny. And coins ... When did she die? in 1773 And on the coins there is nothing, no years, no kings. "King of Tartary, 1653 ONE KUN"! Is there such a coin? And I don't know about a huge number of undated unknown coins. Although there are many familiar archaeologists. There are some, but very few of them. This is clearly not enough for a whole country! And, by the way, I didn’t poke you, you are our cultured to the limit. We didn’t drink at brotherhood!
                    1. Mwg
                      Mwg 13 October 2015 18: 01 New
                      +1
                      And after the German "historians" under Catherine, and after Peter's works on "rewriting" archives, archives, then there is no ..
                      1. kalibr
                        13 October 2015 18: 12 New
                        0
                        So Tartaria died in the 1773 year, and when did Catherine and Peter the Great appear in Russia?
                        Timur Shaov: The State Ancient Urartu,
                        If you look at the map now,
                        Formed from Uryupinsk and Tartu.
                        And Urkagan is a ruler from Urartu.
                      2. Scraptor
                        Scraptor 13 October 2015 20: 59 New
                        -1
                        he himself of these ...
                  2. Glot
                    Glot 13 October 2015 21: 16 New
                    +1
                    , and you know that there are a lot of coins of unknown affiliation either by time or by country? This is the very money of the country,


                    In order not to be unfounded, show at least a couple of dozen of this "mass", which, moreover, from your words "in everyday life" (are they still going around?).
                    Well, at least ten.
                2. Mikhail3
                  Mikhail3 13 October 2015 17: 14 New
                  +3
                  You re-read your own comment. Do you know what he most resembles? The cry of a sectarian. That's all.
                  In my opinion, that "classical historical science" (as far as the naming of science is applicable to this set of anecdotes), that funny Fomenkov's emissions are equally affected by the bending of the trunk and the general curvature, just in different directions.
                  There are no reliable dating methods, and it's not easy. Because people who first give birth to theories on the wave of poetic inspiration, then rule what they have found and not by them so that these theories can be sold to the "scientific" community, an exact dating like that ... that ... is completely unprofitable.
                  Each of the methods listed in the article suffers from inaccuracy plus minus ten thousand years. And even a hundred thousand. And often it is not known at all how many ... and all "scientists" historians are fully satisfied with this. And Fomenko's followers are also satisfied, allowing them to frolic, only not with drawing and poetry, from which classical historians derive their "scientific" theories, but with numerology, deriving "regularities" from any number series.
                  The fun is that historians practically never turn to engineers, physicists, or chemists for any help. As a rule, they, historians, read a book or two on the discipline they need and give birth to their own methods. “It’s bad if a pie-maker starts to make boots, and a shoemaker bakes pies” ...
                  But it cannot be otherwise. Because the engineers and physicists there all sorts of in the moment will smash all this, lovingly created from lies, omissions, manipulations and frank writing, the building of "history" to smithereens. After that, you will have to build it, this is the most historic building, from scratch to a new one, and in this construction there is no place for irresponsible talkers, writers, poets hovering in the clouds, that is, none of our contemporary historians.
                  So here is the "archeomagnetic" method, which gives accuracy plus or minus Eternity, everything is dated here! Ugh...
                  1. kalibr
                    13 October 2015 17: 27 New
                    0
                    Who told you that? In England, for example, an armor book from museums in Malta was published. Specialists in metal science and metallography, chemists, and specialists in spectral analysis were involved there. Is this not enough for you? Or didn’t you just meet her?
                    1. Mwg
                      Mwg 13 October 2015 17: 57 New
                      +2
                      Yeah, where it’s safe to attract specialists, they’re attracted to it, and where it is sewn with white thread, there is chatter, cries of the choir, sarcasm and ridicule. The way this is: do not prove, but shut your mouth
                      1. kalibr
                        13 October 2015 18: 15 New
                        0
                        And do you know examples? Share, tomorrow I will give an article "there" - we will earn a lot of money! Not about politics, but about history, of course. Which of the historians, how, when and who chatted, and if the example with Malta did not suit you, it was in England. They adore exposing articles not on political topics.
                3. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 13 October 2015 20: 12 New
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And if one is honest, then ALL DON'T BE DEFECTIVE!
                  crying
                  The word is familiar - "mafia"?
                  1. kalibr
                    13 October 2015 21: 53 New
                    0
                    Are all historians a mafia? Well, cool! I am a mafia! I am proud! Where is my bentley ?!
                    1. Scraptor
                      Scraptor 13 October 2015 22: 40 New
                      0
                      Than? What other knowledge about the mafia?
          2. Alex
            Alex 13 October 2015 19: 07 New
            +3
            Quote: War and Peace
            As for the Shroud, as far as I remember, three independent laboratories gave similar results for 13 centuries, and this coincides with the research of the FIN of the life and death of Christ

            And the question of falsification of the shroud has already been removed? There is a very convincing version that it is the result of a much later act and life of Christ and its crucifixion has nothing to do. Moreover, the image has never been found.
        2. Scraptor
          Scraptor 13 October 2015 16: 12 New
          0
          Ask Fomenko, or Go to Church and ask for a brochure on this topic - you will find out that for all sorts of analyzes her samples were taken 20 times (good repeatability of the results) and only on the 21st they found something wrong, after which they threw everything and began to beat in a tambourine. .. laughing
          Some pollen has not been found there, which, of course, could not be brought there by the wind.

          It is not clear why Catholics allowed her to atheists at all ...
          1. kalibr
            13 October 2015 16: 20 New
            0
            I asked "war and peace". I have no time to go to churches, it smells strange there.
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 15 December 2015 20: 59 New
              0
              Does not the smell of sulfur give you a rest?
          2. War and Peace
            War and Peace 13 October 2015 16: 22 New
            0
            Quote: Scraptor
            It is not clear why Catholics allowed her to atheists at all ...


            Well, what is not clear? a new dating method arose and it was necessary to create a good reputation for him, you cannot force all laboratory assistants in 3 laboratories to lie, so the analysis was carried out in good faith, the results got out of the TI? DONATE THE SHAKE-FAKE, it happens, but then the rest of the artifacts with this method will be dated, as it should ie according to TI ...
          3. BM-13
            BM-13 13 December 2015 21: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Scraptor
            Ask Fomenko, or Go to Church and ask for a brochure on this topic - you will find out that for all sorts of analyzes her samples were taken 20 times

            Only three times, and even then with a huge fight. In 1988, three laboratories tested the same sample (divided into three parts), the results were similar - the 13th century. The second time - in 2008 - the same result. The third and, obviously, the last time - comprehensive studies in 2013, conducted by the Italian Giulio Fanti (for some reason, other scholars were not allowed) showed the end of the first - the beginning of the second century AD, which corresponds to the biblical legend. True, these results are not particularly believed.

            The Shroud of Turin is one of the most unlikely artifacts of Christianity. So incredible that even the Vatican did not immediately recognize it as a relic, and after recognizing it, he hid it from the eyes for almost three hundred years.
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 15 December 2015 21: 01 New
              0
              And where is it written?
        3. Alex
          Alex 13 October 2015 19: 05 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Are you my answer? Does your Fomenko recognize the results of radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin or not?

          Turin ...

          As far as I know, they said nothing intelligible about her at all. On the one hand, it seems to be similar to their arc, but on the other hand they do not trust the radioisotope methods (not only radiocarbon, but also potassium-argon). So that they have a problem turns out ...
      3. kalibr
        13 October 2015 16: 16 New
        0
        "The methods are absolutely not equivalent not in terms of accuracy and systemic return, ie any" geomagnetic "methods of clay artifacts cannot be used for dating or only" theoretically ", ie in practice the accuracy is very low" - who says that? Doctor of what sciences, professor, corresponding member. Or Ph.D. Tyurin? Well, I'm a Ph.D. and my opinion against him is absolutely equal! Or do you have this: there are our bees and they make the right honey, but not ours - the wrong one?
      4. Alex
        Alex 13 October 2015 19: 00 New
        +3
        Quote: War and Peace
        Well, finally, we have waited for a "scientific" and unbiased analysis of the methods of historical dating.


        Interestingly, do you yourself understand the essence of radiocarbon analysis or do you quote only Postnikov? His arguments have long been considered and disproved, but obviously something needs to be considered.

        hardware errors i.e. the errors occurring during the isolation of c14 from the sample for analysis, these methods are laboratory-chemical and cannot but have losses in such experiments ...
        Sheer nonsense. Carbon-14 no one specifically emits. A preparation is being prepared (most often benzene), which is then determined by carbon-14 activity (in the total mass, and not in the fraction of only this isotope). The ratio of C-14 decay activity to the sample mass (specific activity) determines the C-14 / C-12 ratio, which is age.

        -volcanic activity. Removal with 14 volcanoes
        No volcanoes can carry any C-14, since it simply does not form there. An exception may be only the lava of volcanoes located in areas of increased radioactivity, but even there its content is simply scanty.

        -bomb component
        Indeed, a rather impressive factor, but how can a MODERN radiocarbon be absorbed by a tree Dying FOR SEVER A THOUSAND YEARS BACK? But for future generations this will really become a headache, since they will have to take into account our contribution to the general radiation background.

        the source of С14 to the atmosphere is not only space, variable solar activity cannot be accurately predicted, the geomanite activity of the Earth is the same, and therefore, the arrival of 14 into the atmosphere is absolutely unpredictable.
        Solar activity, of course, is also a factor and, unlike nuclear testing, it was always and not always constant. However, the spectrum of solar radiation is quite different from the composition of cosmic rays and it contains just a rather low fraction of particles causing the formation of C-14. So it doesn’t introduce any particular error, although archaeologists have to take into account these possible errors (therefore, the radioisotope method is not of the nature of ABSOLUTE accuracy, the error is always indicated).
        How geomagnetic activity can affect the processes of nucleosynthesis and nuclear decay - I can’t imagine even after the second bottle. So, if everything is not predictable, it fits into the confidential interval of the measurement method.

        The radiocarbon dating method has long been tested and rechecked by other possible methods, so Postnikov and others are simply exiled, so that if not themselves become famous, then dunk others (in particular, not unknown Fomenko and Nosovsky are also being driven to this method. It is understandable, they are " discoveries "don't fit into this method in any way).
        1. War and Peace
          War and Peace 13 October 2015 19: 53 New
          0
          Quote: Alex
          Interestingly, do you yourself understand the essence of radiocarbon analysis or do you quote only Postnikov? His arguments have long been considered and disproved, but obviously something needs to be considered.


          almost everything is written in his own words, except for a small paragraph at the bottom of the wise guy ...

          Quote: Alex
          Sheer nonsense. Carbon-14 no one specifically emits. A preparation is being prepared (most often benzene), which is then determined by carbon-14 activity (in the total mass, and not in the fraction of only this isotope). The ratio of C-14 decay activity to the sample mass (specific activity) determines the C-14 / C-12 ratio, which is age.


          Any student chemist knows this ...

          Quote: Alex
          No volcanoes can carry any C-14, since it simply does not form there. An exception may be only the lava of volcanoes located in areas of increased radioactivity, but even there its content is simply scanty.
        2. War and Peace
          War and Peace 13 October 2015 20: 14 New
          0
          Quote: Alex
          No volcanoes can carry any C-14, since it simply does not form there. An exception may be only the lava of volcanoes located in areas of increased radioactivity, but even there its content is simply scanty.


          sure? Have you measured all the volcanoes? the removal of isotopes as a result of volcanic activity takes place to be, and in what way c14 is in the bowels is another question ...

          Indeed, a rather impressive factor, but how can a MODERN radiocarbon be absorbed by a tree Dying FOR SEVER A THOUSAND YEARS BACK? But for future generations this will really become a headache, since they will have to take into account our contribution to the general radiation background.


          so the question is not worth it at all, but there is a need to build the very notorious CONSTANT c14 Libi in accordance with the chronology ...

          Solar activity, of course, is also a factor and, unlike nuclear testing, it was always and not always constant. However, the spectrum of solar radiation is quite different from the composition of cosmic rays and it contains just a rather low proportion of particles causing the formation of C-14. So it doesn’t make much error, although archaeologists have to take these


          it's not about the solar spectrum - what does it have to do with it? and in solar modulation of cosmic radiation, protons ...

          Thus, geomagnetic activity can affect the processes of nucleosynthesis and nuclear decay - I can’t imagine even after the second bottle. So, if everything is not predictable, it fits into the confidential interval of the measurement method.


          cosmic rays affecting the synthesis of c14 are high-energy protons that are subject to the influence of a magnetic field ...
          The radiocarbon dating method has long been tested and rechecked by other possible methods, so Postnikov and others are simply exiled, so that if not themselves become famous, then dunk others (in particular, not unknown Fomenko and Nosovsky are also being driven to this method. It is understandable, they are " discoveries "don't fit into this method in any way).


          Well, Duc, bring evidence, why in vain grind your tongue, who is lying there more?
      5. marline
        marline 14 October 2015 11: 07 New
        0
        Well, what are you so ...
        If these methods were such r ..., then we would not have heard about them, as we do not know about thousands of other methods ... Any method is accurate and is applicable only under certain conditions. And this has long been agreed and implied.
        In the end, calibration tables have long been created for the same radiocarbon method (i.e., the amount of radiocarbon in the atmosphere at different times), so its accuracy should not be in doubt.
  2. tanit
    tanit 13 October 2015 06: 52 New
    10
    What are you doing ?! How can the pitiful 20 volumes of "Archeology of the USSR" compare with sacred knowledge from hidden sources, inscriptions on the Sun and plaster, games of rearranging letters (Burime, it seems?) In Russian transcriptions of foreign names and names ?! laughing
  3. Glot
    Glot 13 October 2015 07: 00 New
    +6
    Everyone decides for himself what to read, what to believe. Some sooner or later stop believing in fairy tales, others - believe in them for the rest of their lives. And serious research, they are often written in a boring, incomprehensible or completely unreadable for those who cannot understand them in principle, that's why books are written for them in a simple, popular language about Etruscans and other crap, for them channels like TNT are broadcast around the clock and RenTV. Listen to stupidity, and we will grow rich on your stupidity. Yes, yes, because the overwhelming majority of these are commercial projects. By the way, just now I was writing, and I remembered one short fragment of one of the books I had read by Fomenko and company. It said (almost literally) that the pyramids in Egypt were built by "Russian princes-atamans" yes yes, exactly that, and were "their tombs", yeah ... And something else about the sand there, it seems like it is useful for their safety - the "princes-atamans" of the mummified carcasses. Here is such nonsense! But they do believe, devil take it! And figs will convince you.
    However, this is not only with us. It's all over the world. Everywhere there are "experts" and their followers. But when you see, for example, in a bookstore on the shelves with literature on history, a bunch of all kinds of crazy books, you involuntarily think about the correctness of censorship. Tough census and serious responsibility for words. But, as long as it is - everyone writes what he wants and reads what he wants. Here is such an orgy ...
    1. alebor
      alebor 13 October 2015 10: 34 New
      +5
      It seems to me that the number of history fans from TNT and RenTV and M. Zadornov is directly related to the quality of education in our schools. The lower the quality, the more fans.
      1. erg
        erg 13 October 2015 12: 22 New
        +3
        Zadornov is a satirist and that says it all. He does not convey any truth to us, but simply makes fun of, for example, our illiteracy. The fact that we have replaced good education with some kind of surrogate. At the same time, he uses a technique typical of satire - he takes a problem and inflates it to "the size of an elephant", sometimes bringing it to the point of absurdity. Listen carefully to his verbal constructions, they all make you laugh even when it seems that something serious has been said. But this is a feature of satire - sometimes in order to understand what humor you need to think about, as opposed to humor below the belt. Try to listen to Zadorny from this point of view and everything will fall into place. By the way, he himself has repeatedly said that his goal is to draw attention to the problem, and not to tell some new truth, theory, etc.
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 13 October 2015 15: 55 New
          +3
          Quote: erg
          Zadornov satirist and that says it all

          In-in-in! And therefore "all this jokes" ...
          and then it turns out that - no ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. bastard
        bastard 13 October 2015 15: 38 New
        +2
        Quote: alebor
        It seems to me that the number of history fans from TNT and RenTV and M. Zadornov is directly related to the quality of education in our schools.

        Children are now raising a TV and tablet.
      4. Scraptor
        Scraptor 13 October 2015 15: 54 New
        +1
        what comrade Zadoronov tells us is known in any German.
        Nothing is taught there on this subject, unlike the Soviet go Russian (where famous comrades are busy with slandering his Russian).
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Turkir
      Turkir 13 October 2015 11: 17 New
      +2
      Everyone decides what to read, what to believe.

      This is true.
      But scientific thinking is built on facts, logic and analysis, and not on faith.
      And the believer cannot be “persuaded”. You have logic, but he has a myth - you are in different worlds. How can you convince a person who is not familiar with the rudiments of formal logic?
      Their "logic" is: - Elderberry in the garden, and uncle in Kiev.
      This is the only addition to your comment with which I agree.
      1. Mwg
        Mwg 13 October 2015 17: 20 New
        +3
        A mistake about scientific thinking. scientific thinking is a theory + experience confirming this theory. Traditional historians do not have this "+ experience". Archeology exists in isolation. Modern traditional history is speculative conclusions based on the "authoritative" works of previous "historians", and those, in turn, refer to written sources that "unfortunately have not survived to our time, but there are reprints." That is what they refer to. Hence the conclusion - speculative constructions are based on unverified information. At the same time, the science of history with might and main uses the principle "there is no rule without exception" and everything that does not fit into the logical constructions invented by them is declared such exceptions and stored in the closet, and those who try to embed new facts into the well-known "history" are ridiculed and persecuted. A lot of artifacts are at odds with the "science of history", but things are still there - they are silent about them.
        1. kalibr
          13 October 2015 18: 17 New
          0
          Are you talking about that?
        2. bastard
          bastard 14 October 2015 03: 03 New
          +2
          Quote: MVG
          Modern traditional history is speculative conclusions based on the "authoritative" works of previous "historians", and those, in turn, refer to written sources that "unfortunately have not survived to our time, but there are reprints."

          I absolutely agree with you! hi
          Quote: MVG
          Archeology exists apart.

          And here you are right. For example, Venus of Milos amuses me, or rather, what is connected with it. Wikipedia says this:
          “Venus of Milos” (Aphrodite from the island of Milos) is a famous ancient Greek sculpture created between about 130 and 100 years BC made of white marble.
          Next:
          It was found in 1820 on the island of Milos (Melos) - one of the Cyclades islands in the Aegean Sea under the following circumstances. French sailor Olivier Voutier decided to go ashore to search for antiquities (at that time there was a boom in antiquity) for sale. Together with the local peasant Jorgos Kentrotas, he unearthed a statue on the ruins
          ancient amphitheater.
          Her hands were lost after the discovery, at the time of the conflict between the French, who wanted to take her to their country, and the Turks (owners of the island), who sought to prevent the statue from being exported from the empire.

          Hm! Oh, how interesting! The statue of marble (limestone), having lain in the island soil for 2000 years, was in excellent condition, whoever does not believe can admire it in the Louvre.
          However, nothing interesting, THERE WAS A BOOM IN ANCIENT, so she was "found". Oh yes! I completely forgot, because the French are the most honest and noble people, they have repeatedly proved this by betrayal in wars. No wonder our pre-revolutionary "elite" tried to imitate them in everything, even spoke their language. Well done sailor! I dug just where it is necessary and shallow. It's just a lucky dude, it happens. Or the peasant said, they say, here is some kind of mulberry mulberry lying. Anyway.
          As far as I have information, marble soil is an aggressive environment. It is teeming with life, insects, microorganisms, especially all sorts of bacteria that secrete various acids and other interesting substances "beneficially" affecting the safety of polished marble. Let's add here sea salt fog and acid rain, they were, are and will be. Let's multiply all this by 2000 years. ... ...
          Our Palace of Culture was built in the early 70s, the base and part of the walls were lined with polished granite and marble, the architect grabbed the Lenin Prize for the project (and its former achievements), because the USSR was a poor country with an inefficient economy, well, yes. So, the marble inside the building is normal, but on the street, well, in general, nothing has been emitted yet, but it’s somehow not so hot near by, eroded by erosion, it is rather rough and cracked in places. but not built 2000 years ago, however. Something like that.

          I have many such observations, but more on that another time. Vodka is running out.

          And the statue, nevertheless, is really beautiful and created by the master.

          Be healthy!
      2. bastard
        bastard 14 October 2015 03: 44 New
        0
        Quote: Turkir
        But scientific thinking is built on facts, logic and analysis, and not on faith.

        I have nothing against your comment, I just fantasized. Suppose, after 1000 years, archaeologists of the future in Moscow began excavations and found: bottles of French perfume, rusty parts for Toyota and
        Mercedes, petrified dollars, miraculously preserved fragments of Chinese clothes and condoms, the ruins of mosques, broken bottles of Russian vodka, etc. belay
        They'll probably break the brain what logically analyzing the facts (stubborn thing!) and deciding which state 1000 years ago Moscow belonged to. laughing
    4. Scraptor
      Scraptor 13 October 2015 14: 01 New
      +2
      you crap and carcasses ... Europe until the 20th century did not even wash.

      In Siberia, in the permafrost, everything is "embalmed" in a natural way, and the pre-glacial cities with typical Russian Caucasians who are found there are hushed up and destroyed just as briskly and briskly as before that birch bark letters (which cannot be crumpled) on which the gentlemen For a century and a half of excavations, due to their "uselessness" as some kind of "scraps", scientists did not bother to examine the "fissured" letter.
      So bacchanalia is like that ...


      1. Glot
        Glot 13 October 2015 14: 51 New
        +2
        In Siberia, in the permafrost, everything is "embalmed" in a natural way, and the preglacial cities with typical Russian Caucasians who are found there are hushed up and destroyed just as briskly and greyhound


        Exactly right, not Siberia, but ... "Country of a Thousand Cities" laughing , although not, they called it a completely different country. smile But it’s not the point, that’s where you don’t poke a shovel across Siberia, you’ll get to the “typically Russian preglacial city” and ... bury it, bury it faster. And then suddenly they will find out. laughing

        birch bark letters (which cannot be crumpled), on which the gentlemen-scientists for a century and a half of excavations due to their "uselessness" as some kind of "scraps" did not bother to consider the "cracked" letter.


        It is right what to look - into their furnace, into the furnace, into the fire. There’s nothing more to do. They burned everything, everything. How will the academics and the candidates get together, and let’s burn letters. Bask. And then they froze, in Siberia, then, digging through the permafrost of the city. Now bask from the birch bark. laughing
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 13 October 2015 15: 12 New
          0
          A few dozen found. What are you laughing at? bully
          The climate has changed. In Brazil, too much subsided when they learned that all the jungle was inhabited before imported smallpox.

          Just in the bosom and then in a campfire, or so grind, until the NKVDist pushed one by the hand in 1951 - such is your "scientific" gang-watering can ... And after that they suddenly began to be found MASSIVELY! what And before that - sometimes some incomprehensible (and therefore uninteresting to the archaeologist) birch bark pieces "came across" (in order to warm up by the fire).
          1. Glot
            Glot 13 October 2015 15: 26 New
            0
            A few dozen found.


            Well then, at least a dozen call. With links to sources of course.
            Ohhhh, well now I know what the first word will be in response:
            - Arkaim-mmm-mmm ... laughing

            Just in the bosom and then into a campfire, or grind it like that, until the NKVDist pushed one of them by the hand in 1951 - this is your "scientific" gang-watering can ...


            What, and it was, or so they rebuked a little saying:
            - Don't burn anymore! laughing
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 13 October 2015 16: 20 New
              0
              Look for these links you did not work. Removing this from the Internet is more difficult. You will find it yourself ...

              They beat, scolded, deprived of the Prize and then put in a madhouse. Do you know how this happens? laughing With the "thaw", when the government changed, they released ...
              1. Glot
                Glot 13 October 2015 16: 26 New
                +1
                Look for these links you did not work. Removing this from the Internet is more difficult. You will find it yourself ...


                That's right, because finding nothing will come of it.
                You said stupidity, and you can’t prove it, so you merge.
                And what are these your words after? Nothing, an empty waste, one and no more. laughing

                Do you know how this happens? With a thaw - released ...


                Yes, I know that some have exacerbations with a thaw, and with the first frosts. Well, you know something. laughing laughing
                1. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 13 October 2015 16: 50 New
                  0
                  That's right - because you don’t want to ... bully
                  And you are carrying nonsense-dullness and empty waste in a continuous stream. Because there will be a break in it - your fraud will open.
                  Here the Huns are also Caucasians, so they came from Asia and began to build cities for themselves. laughing
                  The Ostrogoths also did not always live in Europe.
                  Even the yellow Chinese, who then stood below the level of development, built cities for themselves. No whites lived in Siberia in dens when it was warmer (to the glacier) !!!

                  Well, I do, yes - I came across your kennel many times. Look in the mirror more often ... 1951. after 150+ years of piggy "archeology" as a science in the Russian open spaces, the birch-bark toka-tok letter was "found"
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 13 October 2015 16: 57 New
                    +1
                    That's right - because you don’t want to ...


                    The drain is counted. laughing

                    after 150+ years of archeology as a science in the Russian open spaces, the birch-bark toka-tok letter was "found".


                    So what ? Have you ever heard of the Kushan kingdom?
                    It was a whole civilization powerful and quite successful.
                    It was discovered only in the XIX century, and then, a little bit ... There are still a lot of questions.
                    Or, have you heard about Ai-Khanum?
                    This ancient Greek city, almost untouched, was dug up in Afghanistan in the year 1972 or 1973, I don’t remember exactly now the French.
                    So what.
                    Everything has its time.
                    And there are plenty of examples.
                    Science does not stand still!
                    1. Scraptor
                      Scraptor 13 October 2015 20: 04 New
                      -1
                      Well go down the pipes, your problems ... bully

                      What were you singing about now? ... Well, yes, it's not worth it - there were no portable shredders in which they did not have time to lower the "first found" one, which is why the Russian writing finally appeared in 1951 repeat lol And never would have appeared. negative
                      1. Glot
                        Glot 13 October 2015 21: 21 New
                        +1
                        What were you singing about now?


                        All clear. laughing I thought that you would not even understand what it was about. laughing
                      2. Scraptor
                        Scraptor 13 October 2015 21: 37 New
                        -1
                        Go, go ... bully
                      3. Glot
                        Glot 13 October 2015 22: 33 New
                        0
                        Go, go ...


                        How fast sometimes, brainless hamsters go to you when there is nothing to say. laughing
                        He made nonsense, saying nothing in the case, not confirming a single word, and immediately - go, go ... laughing
                        Come on, into that hole from where they crawled out behind a rotten carrot, go and sit quietly there quietly, with a rotten rotten crumb. laughing
                        And even better, for a long winter, do a little self-education, read smart books. Although, I understand that the advice is empty, but still something may move in my head empty, maybe there is still nothing dead ... laughing
                      4. Scraptor
                        Scraptor 13 October 2015 23: 58 New
                        -1
                        Are you talking about the brainlessness of hamsters? Come on dive for all the birch bark letters that you "did not find" before 1951.
            2. The comment was deleted.
    5. erg
      erg 13 October 2015 15: 56 New
      +2
      Well, the fact that in the 51st NKVD no longer existed, but there was a Ministry of Internal Affairs - these are trifles, the main thing is to poke something. And the MGB was then a separate organization.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 13 October 2015 16: 17 New
        -1
        It was a retired NKVDist. There are no former.
        1. Glot
          Glot 13 October 2015 16: 29 New
          +1
          There are no bishops.


          It's right. Stupidity is also not curable. laughing
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 13 October 2015 16: 55 New
            -1
            No, why, they treated 9mm, and not only her ... even through a helmet. winked
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. erg
          erg 13 October 2015 16: 39 New
          +2
          And who is the nkvdist? My grandfather had a brother as a firefighter, he also belonged to the NKVD, and my grandfather served in the police from 45, but also to the NKVD.
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 13 October 2015 17: 18 New
            -1
            This one who has a blue cap, but not a pilot ....
            1. erg
              erg 13 October 2015 18: 02 New
              +1
              So in the NKVD only the pilots had a blue cap. The rest wore khaki.
              1. Scraptor
                Scraptor 13 October 2015 21: 00 New
                0
                ... and now they wear it.
                1. erg
                  erg 13 October 2015 22: 02 New
                  0
                  Well, who, what we wear or wore, I probably know you better. But still, what kind of beast is such an NKVDist? Maybe I'm one of them too?
                2. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 13 October 2015 23: 15 New
                  -1
                  May be. Do you know who they usually mean by this?
                3. erg
                  erg 14 October 2015 08: 08 New
                  0
                  No, I can't imagine. Only now I'm tired of it when some "literate", in the stupidity he said, neither to the village nor to the city, mentions the NKVD. I am offended for my native department.
                4. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 14 October 2015 11: 07 New
                  -1
                  What kind of stupidity and bad was the mention of the NKVD, "mummer"?
                5. erg
                  erg 14 October 2015 11: 43 New
                  0
                  You wrote nonsense in your comments. The expression neither to the village, nor to the city means inappropriately spoken, inserted, etc., and not bad. And leave the mumbled term to yourself, I don’t need other people's nickname, I have mine.
                6. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 14 October 2015 13: 32 New
                  0
                  Nonsense in your head, a tin soldier ... NKVDist (under Stalin) is usually the one who grabbed the nits by the hand. Also in 1951 seized.
                7. erg
                  erg 14 October 2015 15: 15 New
                  0
                  A storyteller, and besides, he is also hamlo. So any conversation is meaningless. "Good luck to you.
                8. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 14 October 2015 20: 11 New
                  0
                  The storyteller and Hamlo is you, and not an NKVDist (if only a new wave). And somehow you take part in this here, that's why you got out ... The first birch bark letter became the property of obscenity only in 1951, and before that the Russians "did not have writing and literacy." After 150 years, archeology as a science, which regularly fulfilled this very anti-Russian order, eliminated "arefacts".
                  Birch bark is everywhere, this is not an expensive parchment, on which the Trotskyists taught, with the help of a revolver, literate people to forget their letters and sign with a "cross" until one Orthodox mustachioed Georgian did not register them themselves ...
                9. erg
                  erg 14 October 2015 22: 19 New
                  +1
                  Not an NKVDist, but an employee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the heirs of the NKVD, which I am proud of. And I respect Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria and Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky very much. I am convinced that I am an atheist, a Bolshevik communist, like Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (Ulyanov) and Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (Dzhugashvili). I am a convinced Stalinist. I also share the ideas of Russian cosmists, the part that bases the ideas of cosmism on a scientific basis (I am also a Darwinist). These include such scholars as Tsiolkovsky, Vernadsky, Efremov, etc. I share the ideas of Soviet (and therefore Russian, because the Soviet worldview is based on Russian with the addition of Marxism) internationalism, that is, I am proud that I am Russian, but I do not despise other nations and not infected, like some, with national swagger.
                10. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 15 October 2015 01: 32 New
                  -1
                  FEDA in vain, he was possessed and LBP - on the contrary, nothing ... The form would be a reptile rare.
                  too many changes, closer to human nature you have to be, preferably unspoiled.
                  The IVS was not an atheist; in the trenches they become believers quickly.
  • kalibr
    13 October 2015 15: 45 New
    0
    Imagine being washed! It is known exactly how much a bath cost to someone and how often he took it. And ... even kings rarely used the bath until the 15 century, but then ... they began to do a little cleanliness.
    1. Scraptor
      Scraptor 13 October 2015 16: 26 New
      +1
      Imagine - no ... With Anna Yaroslavna there was some violation of this "tradition", then everything until the beginning of the 20th century returned to normal.

      Batoriev's bloody baths do not count ...
      1. kalibr
        13 October 2015 16: 42 New
        +1
        Imagine yes! In the paintings of the castles of the English kings, it is indicated in detail when which king ordered a bath and how much it cost the treasury. The same documents were kept in the castles of his nobles. Until a penny, everything is counted. There are images of mistresses in shirts ... That is, there were public baths. But I did not deal with this topic in detail, I just saw it when I delved into my own affairs. I’m reluctant to search specifically for you. But I also have no reason to deceive you.
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 13 October 2015 17: 22 New
          0
          So me too - you can just see
          "Les Visiteurs" laughing despite the fact that in France it’s easier with water now.
          1. kalibr
            13 October 2015 17: 52 New
            0
            That is, there were no drawings of the attendants? And baths too?
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 13 October 2015 20: 53 New
              -1
              Do you know what a bath is? lol
              study the topic of "Western European baths" and their "hygiene" more ...
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjdGHs6wlTU
              X
              1. kalibr
                13 October 2015 21: 59 New
                +1
                I do not use YouTube. Only solid monographic sources.
                1. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 13 October 2015 22: 41 New
                  -1
                  Banned? Solid, what are they? Those who, like you, "do not know" that Europe began to wash only in the 20th century? lol Or such as Herberstein who write it from a sore point to a healthy one about Russians? winked
  • War and Peace
    War and Peace 13 October 2015 16: 55 New
    -2
    Quote: Glot
    Everyone decides what to read, what to believe.


    your attitude to the PLU method says that mixing black and white, and truth with untruth and not making any difference between them, you are most likely as illegible as well, otherwise, it’s like consuming, for whom to vote, what to believe and what to think and where to live, what to eat, what to drink, is all the same.
    Your portrait is clear a sort of cosmopolitan, spread over life and themes.
    But your position is vicious and deceitful. NEVER THERE IT SO happen that there would be TWO TRUTHS. One is necessarily a lie, so when it comes to science, do not believe in DO, but KNOW ...
    1. Glot
      Glot 13 October 2015 17: 03 New
      0
      But your position is vicious and deceitful. NEVER THERE IT SO happen that there would be TWO TRUTHS. One is necessarily a lie, so when it comes to science, do not believe in DO, but KNOW ...


      My position supports an official, scientifically sound and academically proven story. That's all.
      And your "truth" is unsubstantiated verbiage, inventions and exaggerations here and there.
      And therefore the words "know" and "science" you, in principle, should not say. Since you do not know anything and eat only pseudo-scientific, popular-fantastic porridge.
      See do not eat, otherwise it will puff. laughing
      1. War and Peace
        War and Peace 13 October 2015 17: 16 New
        +2
        Quote: Glot
        My position supports an official, scientifically sound and academically proven story. That's all.


        Seriously? then maybe on the topic, something to say? otherwise it’s just a wizard?
        Quote: Glot
        And therefore the words "know" and "science" you, in principle, should not say. Since you do not know anything and eat only pseudo-scientific, popular-fantastic porridge.


        Specifically, what kind of "porridge" that does not suit you?
        1. Glot
          Glot 13 October 2015 21: 23 New
          0
          Seriously? then maybe on the topic, something to say? otherwise it’s just a wizard?


          Yes, everything has already been said on the topic for a long time. Only you cannot understand this because of the inability to think ... request
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 13 October 2015 21: 35 New
            0
            Quote: Glot
            Yes, everything has already been said on the topic for a long time. Only you cannot understand this because of the inability to think ...

            that in this respect you do not like anyone here ... and you are definitely not "great"?
            1. Glot
              Glot 13 October 2015 22: 37 New
              +1
              something in this respect you do not like anyone here


              Nobody, are you talking to yourself? laughing This is true, namely no one. laughing
              1. Scraptor
                Scraptor 14 October 2015 00: 00 New
                0
                No, not true. About others.
                It can be seen that "great", and therefore put a pot on his head, "dog-knight". bully
  • inkass_98
    inkass_98 13 October 2015 07: 56 New
    +2
    Lovers of Fomenko, Nosovsky, Muldashev and other "historians" should not read this article. Only in embarrassment to introduce them.
    Well and so, damage:
    Part of the crater depicting a chariot and warriors

    Reads "kraEr", stress on the last syllable. Ceramic or glass (yes, there were also glass ones, they dug themselves, personally, but only of a later period, about the 5th century BC) a bowl with a wide neck.
    Quote: Glot
    such huge jugs for oil and grain

    Called "pyphos", there were also much larger sizes, moreover, they were usually dug into the ground, like a storehouse. I also had a chance to dig, in our local university a couple are from our findings from 1989.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 13 October 2015 09: 02 New
      +5
      Lovers of Fomenko, Nosovsky, Muldashev and other "historians" should not read this article. Only in embarrassment to introduce them.
      Will not help. To do this, one must be a thinking and analyzing person, and not a blindly believing adherent.
      1. wax
        wax 13 October 2015 14: 20 New
        +3
        Actually, Fomenko just proposes not to read the manuscripts of "historians", but to investigate material culture, not forgetting mathematics and astronomy. Now I am not relieved of my doubts about the astronomical achievements of ancient China, where there are no remnants of observatories, compared, for example, with Central Asian cities, where there are remnants of observatories. But today, the history of Palestine, Mesopotamia and the entire Middle East is being "rewritten" by purely military means.
        1. Glot
          Glot 13 October 2015 14: 55 New
          0
          In fact, Fomenko proposes not to read the manuscripts of "historians", but to explore material culture.


          Ehh, if he were to study it, the material culture ... crying
          1. kalibr
            13 October 2015 17: 55 New
            0
            "But at the same time in the USSR a 20-volume edition was prepared and published -" Archeology of the USSR ". It summarizes the material for 200 years of excavations! From the Lower Paleolithic to the XIV century! and Ancient Russia - as they say, take it and use it, everything is described, everything is dated! The only source of this kind, and what is the volume ?! " - And how great it would be if "there" in the past, in an era when we were trying with all our might to overtake and overtake it would loom ... ancient ... And we are the oldest and we have more missiles! Yes, the Politburo would give everything for it to someone who would prove it! But ... it didn't work! At the almighty Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee!
            1. xtur
              xtur 13 October 2015 21: 37 New
              0
              > would loom ... ancient ...

              yes - but what about Armenia and the Armenian people, which supposedly formed from Urartu, despite the fact that the Urartian language and Armenian belong to completely different linguistic families? According to studies of the genetics of the Armenian people (done abroad), this same genetics stabilized in the middle of the third millennium BC, I can provide a link to this work if you demand.

              And who are urarts from the point of view of genetics, no one knows - anthropologically, Urarts and Armenians / proto-Armenians are no different, research is required at the genetic level to determine whether there were any Urarts in the sense of an ethnic group, or none at all.

        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. kalibr
          13 October 2015 15: 50 New
          0
          If you study material culture, then nothing will remain of its constructions. Numismatics! There is such a science! Coins! There are dates on them! Coins lie in the ground in layers. The deeper, the more ancient. There are no coins of Great Tartaria, no one even accidentally dropped into the ground, but all the rest are. And on them the profiles of rulers and names and everything coincides with the data of other sciences and manuscripts. And what are we talking about? What is it that they all deliberately stuck into the earth by moving millions of tons of land?
          1. Glot
            Glot 13 October 2015 16: 21 New
            +1
            Numismatics! There is such a science! Coins! There are dates on them!


            For "adepts of black magic" laughing it rolls weakly. When you begin to explain to them that these mergers of signs, monograms or names of magistrates are dates, they stupidly do not enter. They want to see it as it is - 1,2,5,3 or something like that, but they don’t enter it. And if you try to make it clear that the Greeks allegedly tied to kings, dynasties, events, etc., and the Romans tied to the stands, emperors, magistrates, etc., then that’s all, a stupor happens to them. It is necessary 1,5,85,100 ... laughing
            So no, for adherents this is not an indicator.
            Although for all others, yes, a direct practical indication of the date.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Mwg
            Mwg 13 October 2015 17: 44 New
            0
            Dear Caliber, and you probably heard about the gold of the Scythians? And do you doubt its existence? But if it doesn't come back from the USA, and tomorrow - the day after tomorrow everyone starts shouting that it was a fake, will your grandchildren believe in the existence of this gold? And if someone asks them about this gold, they will answer - "have you seen, show?" And then there is nothing to show. This is how the evidence is destroyed.
            1. kalibr
              13 October 2015 17: 57 New
              0
              Photos, descriptions, measurements will be saved. All archaeological documentation. Weight, thickness ... there is a passport for every find. Many artifacts disappeared during the war, but documents on them have been preserved!
              1. Alex
                Alex 13 October 2015 19: 28 New
                +2
                Quote: kalibr
                Dear Caliber, have you probably heard about the Scythian gold? And do not doubt its existence? But if it doesn’t return from the USA, and tomorrow - the day after tomorrow, everyone will start shouting that it was a fake
                Most of the Scythian gold was stored not just in Crimean museums, but in the Museum of Jewels of Ukraine (Kiev, Kiev-Pechersk Lavra). Another thing is that his further fate may be sad. In addition, a huge collection in the Hermitage.

                Quote: kalibr
                Photos, descriptions, measurements will be saved.
                Scythian gold is such a well-known and documented collection that, fortunately, it will not be able to disappear from history. So the children and grandchildren will have something to learn. Another thing is that I would like not only in holography.
                1. kalibr
                  13 October 2015 19: 35 New
                  0
                  By the way, I was lucky to see her live. There was an exhibition "Gold of the Scythians" dedicated to the discovery of figures of golden rams. It was something.
                  1. Alex
                    Alex 13 October 2015 19: 47 New
                    +2
                    Quote: kalibr
                    By the way, I was lucky to see her live. There was an exhibition "Gold of the Scythians" dedicated to the discovery of figures of golden rams. It was something.

                    And I went to the monastery, also full of impressions. At least write a separate publication.
        4. Alex
          Alex 13 October 2015 19: 22 New
          +3
          Quote: Wax
          Actually, Fomenko just proposes not to read the manuscripts of "historians", but to investigate material culture, not forgetting mathematics and astronomy.

          Yeah, they just use them rather peculiarly. Once I saw one video in which the Finnish financial analytics analyzed some kind of horoscope, as they said, - ANCIENT EGYPTIAN, but at the same time they used the MEDIEVAL interpretation of the symbols. Like, the ancient Egyptians saw the same pictures in the sky as medieval astronomers. That's their astronomy ...
          1. kalibr
            13 October 2015 19: 37 New
            0
            The poet and singer Timur Shaov writes: Historians consider us fools,
            Archaeologists are always ready to cheat.
            Champollion is his own Rosetta stone
            Probably bought on the market in Biryulyovo.
          2. War and Peace
            War and Peace 13 October 2015 22: 12 New
            -1
            Quote: Alex
            Quote: Wax
            Actually, Fomenko just proposes not to read the manuscripts of "historians", but to investigate material culture, not forgetting mathematics and astronomy.

            Yeah, they just use them rather peculiarly. Once I saw one video in which the Finnish financial analytics analyzed some kind of horoscope, as they said, - ANCIENT EGYPTIAN, but at the same time they used the MEDIEVAL interpretation of the symbols. Like, the ancient Egyptians saw the same pictures in the sky as medieval astronomers. That's their astronomy ...


            yeah, it’s called not a misunderstanding, not a hit, I don’t know and don’t want to know, if only I hadn’t acted then, since it’s not in the subject ...
    2. kalibr
      13 October 2015 09: 18 New
      +2
      Well, in the Krasnodar Territory there is something to dig! I saw such jugs in Cyprus. Two taller than my height!
    3. Scraptor
      Scraptor 13 October 2015 13: 52 New
      0
      Quote: inkass_98
      Fomenko, Nosovsky, Muldashev

      and there something is said about them?

      Swedes Siberia (with its permafrost) founded Kiev and Moscow, and Suzdal, Rostov and Novgorod, and before that the Russians did not have a written language, although even the American Indians had it.

      it’s better to consider that it’s untrue, that this is all untrue because even Zadornov tells about this untruth, because he is a hochmach.
      1. kalibr
        13 October 2015 15: 53 New
        +1
        Timur Shaov: I saw a dagger on an old fresco
        And I realized - the Circassians discovered America.
        "Popocatepetl" in Circassian
        Means: "We were not invited here!"
  • erased
    erased 13 October 2015 08: 30 New
    0
    Is this the last attempt to prove the unprovable? The site is not the place to hold such discussions. Pity on the scientific debate, with arguments, evidence and representatives of various parties. Here, find out which methods are more accurate, whether it is worth taking into account the options for different dating, and so on. And it’s not the specialists who need to powder brains.
    And leave Fomenko alone. His scientific and commercial work is quite different. Argue with "Chronotron", with Morozov, Newton, Tatishchev, Lyzlov, Guts, Shilnik and dozens of other specialists who have certainly not just worked for many years. True, some will not answer themselves, but their work will stand up for their masters.
    And here is a slightly different focus and themes. And resorting to proofs like "well, look, the word, I'm not lying ..." is not worth it.
    Speaking of topics - so how many troops of Napoleon’s army crossed the border with Russia in 1812? Can you find out without a radiocarbon method? ..
    1. tanit
      tanit 13 October 2015 08: 49 New
      +6
      Quote: erased
      The site is not the place to hold such discussions.

      And for "tell" everyone about the collective image of Alexander the Great, as you did relatively recently - the site turns out to be a suitable place? wassat
      1. Glot
        Glot 13 October 2015 10: 20 New
        +1
        And to "tell" everyone about the collective image of Alexander the Great


        Wow, I remember this opus. laughing
        There was one more comrade, also an ardent "fighter for historical justice" laughing , so he also assured that everyone lies and does not understand anything, that he himself can read the old Russian birch bark letters better and more precisely the same Ioannina. Oh how ?!
        I also remembered reading about one "unique", though he didn’t even memorize his last name, so he assured that on ancient Roman coins, in images of emperors, in their hair he read encrypted Russian inscriptions. laughing It’s interesting, what kind of feverish delirium is it necessary to see such people there ?? !! laughing
        I still think that many adherents of such charlatans go "to the other side" and because, somewhere and to someone, to show or prove that they say they are smarter than everyone else, and know and understand much more scientists, themselves being absolute zeros. From sadness or what? laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kalibr
      13 October 2015 09: 08 New
      +6
      The article does not claim to prove anything. She just informs. Someone writes about school museums and someone writes about methods of historical research. Someone is interested in pop, someone popeye.
    4. Turkir
      Turkir 13 October 2015 10: 47 New
      +1
      And leave Fomenko alone

      May he rest in peace.
      He doesn’t leave us alone .. with his rosaries.
      1. Glot
        Glot 13 October 2015 14: 59 New
        0
        He doesn’t leave us alone .. with his rosaries.


        Duc, then eat hots, and he and the whole company entoy. So they write without rest. laughing
      2. The comment was deleted.
    5. erg
      erg 13 October 2015 12: 33 New
      0
      To find out the number of Napoleon’s troops is not so difficult. Since then, many written documents have been preserved on which to restore the events of those years. And I'm not talking about memoirs, but about more commonplace things - staff lists of military units, financial documents, contracts concluded by the army with various businessmen, etc., etc. Even in our country, after all the events of the twentieth century, there are completely similar documents.
  • lao_tsy
    lao_tsy 13 October 2015 08: 35 New
    +7
    Charlatans, especially from history, a lot. But the fact remains. Russian history was written by Germans. There are no originals of Russian chronicles, only late lists. There is no original story written by M.V. Lomonosov, gone.
  • kvs207
    kvs207 13 October 2015 09: 33 New
    +5
    A long time ago, even before Fomenko, I read an article in the Tekhnika - Molodyozhi magazine about the "accuracy" of carbon analysis. I don't remember literally, but the point is that it doesn't give a clear result. The spread can be hundreds and thousands of years. So ... "not everything is so simple" laughing
    I have been interested in history for a long time, and I noticed that the deeper you study it, the more questions arise. And this, even about recent times, but what can we say about the "legends of deep antiquity." In general, in the classic version of the story, I am disappointed.
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 10: 10 New
      +4
      How do you think since the time you read it in the journal of the 80s, that is, 35 years ago science has stepped forward or not? Technology-youth, of course, is good, but ... you need to focus on today! In addition, C14 dates are verified by other methods. As for your disappointment ... I also read in TM in 1968 about an astronaut in a rocket from a tomb in Palenque. At 14 you don't need much! Black letters on white paper! Became an adept of aliens on Earth. Already in 1974 he read lectures on the line of the OK Komsomol to rural youth and students in agricultural work about ... "not everything is so simple." But the more I did it, the more ... I saw that it was all bullshit! So A: You have done little history if you are disappointed in what thousands, if not more, first-class specialists have not been disappointed in. Or B: there are types of people who are shaved everywhere, where others have their hair cut. There's nothing you can do about it!
      1. Glot
        Glot 13 October 2015 10: 24 New
        +2
        Also read in TM in 1968 about an astronaut in a rocket from a tomb in Palenque


        I also read at school the materials I came across about paleocontacts, Kazantseva read out and everything that came across. It was very interesting, intriguing.
        Then it just grew ... smile
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. kvs207
        kvs207 13 October 2015 12: 28 New
        0
        No one argues that science has stepped forward, nevertheless, I am skeptical about statements with "accurate" dating.
        I wrote about the disappointment with the classic version of history, but I did not stop being interested in it, I just try to look at events of that time, if possible, from the perspective of that time, so to speak. And in fact, I, in fact, did little, except for the unsuccessful attempt to enter our university at the history faculty.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Alex
      Alex 13 October 2015 19: 34 New
      +2
      Quote: kvs207
      A long time ago, even before Fomenko, I read an article in the Tekhnika - Molodyozhi magazine about the "accuracy" of carbon analysis. I don't remember literally, but the point is that it doesn't give a clear result. The spread can be hundreds and thousands of years.
      It seems to me that you are confusing something. I do not presume to assert confidently, I will double-check your information (I have the entire archive of "T - M"), but in thousands of years something is hard to believe ...

      I have been interested in history for a long time, and noticed that the deeper you study it, the more questions arise.
      But this is just normal. Science is like this: it answers a dozen questions to one answer.
    5. Aljavad
      Aljavad 13 October 2015 20: 26 New
      0
      I have been interested in history for a long time, and noticed that the deeper you study it, the more questions arise.


      So with any science. In high school I passed the 5 exam - I know everything! And everything is logical and understandable. And at the institute it turns out: there are few firmly established facts, but there are many theories, interpreting facts. And each rejects the rest. And each - with proofs. And about each you can write: "scientists have proven that ...". And they write. Even about those theories that scientists themselves consider indecent to mention.
  • Turkir
    Turkir 13 October 2015 10: 48 New
    0
    The article is interesting.
    It is a pity the topic of dendrochronology is not disclosed.
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 11: 04 New
      +1
      This is not a specialist. I know that is all.
      1. Turkir
        Turkir 13 October 2015 11: 30 New
        -1
        Well, I'm, you see, also an amateur, but with a mathematical education.
        I hope that you are interested in - http://arheologija.ru/absolyutnaya-hronologiya/
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 13 October 2015 10: 54 New
    +2
    Thanks for the article. History is always redone, corresponded. ... Who benefits - you need to think about it. Or who are interested in rewriting?
    On the other hand, discoveries always occur, all new information may not fit into the existing picture of the world. And I disagree with the theories of Fomenko and others.
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 13 October 2015 11: 11 New
    0
    Excellent article, accessible language, I will wait for continuation.
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 12: 26 New
      +1
      And I would be glad to please you, but no - there will be no continuation. On this topic. But there will be more articles on the Trojan War - I promise you this!
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 13 October 2015 11: 50 New
    0
    Vyacheslav, thanks again for the article, read the previous comment. I want to add - I reviewed all your previous articles and arranged for myself in order
    readings. I advise others as well.
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 12: 28 New
      +1
      Well, well, it’s very nice when they write to you like that. You feel that you live not in vain and it is very comforting.
  • dvg79
    dvg79 13 October 2015 12: 58 New
    0
    But only stone products are dated only by indirect methods, therefore, many theses of conspiracy theorists can neither be proved nor refuted by classical science and either hush up or crush with the same unfounded assertions.
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 16: 03 New
      +2
      We have the grave of a knight, on it is an inscription - buried in 12 ... On the tombstone, effigy is his figure in armor. Raise the plate, take the bone for analysis. We look ... It turns out + - 100 years. Then I find almost the same statue, but without an inscription. And such a sword, and weaving chain mail and a pose ... What is the conclusion? Direct dating? Not indirect, but very accurate, isn't it?
  • MahsusNazar
    MahsusNazar 13 October 2015 13: 05 New
    +2
    Thanks to the author!
    I was interested in this topic, but here in one article a lot of interesting and informative.
  • xtur
    xtur 13 October 2015 14: 13 New
    0
    > a 20-volume edition was prepared and published - "Archeology of the USSR". It summarizes the material over 200 years of excavation!

    This publication, at best, is only available through the library, and even then not every one.

    Such things need to be made available online and adapted to all kinds of requests - these are precisely those things that are worth collecting money for and trying to organize volunteers. In order to scan 20 volumes and put on the Internet scans with some simple tags with explanations, according to which you can already make requests do not need much time, this is one person working for a month at a time

    For example, I have a question - how many authentically excavated military graves / burials of the time of the Mongol Iga exist. I make a request and find out how many graves and what anthropological material is there, and what genetic material is there.
    1. kalibr
      13 October 2015 16: 05 New
      +2
      A whole Zolotarevskoye settlement of 1236 of the year of death was excavated near Penza. And there, and skulls were found broken and bones, to the whole museum. It will be necessary to write more about this.
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 13 October 2015 20: 33 New
      0
      I make a request and find out how many graves and what anthropological material is there, and what genetic material is there.


      This summer in Azov, a mass grave from the Great Memorial in the Horde was unearthed. And last year was a lot of new, interesting.
    3. Scraptor
      Scraptor 13 October 2015 21: 22 New
      -1
      But are they really good at poking around?

      it’s not a treasure;
  • tomket
    tomket 13 October 2015 14: 25 New
    -2
    The Horde have a day off ???
  • Balagan
    Balagan 13 October 2015 15: 57 New
    +2
    1) Well, for C14 it’s too early to say that he hits a bullet in a bullet. For this, calibration scales for this method are being developed. But fishless fish and cancer. If there is nothing to date, then the ember will be oh, how to place. And today there are a lot of it, 100 grams, no longer needed - express analysis, however, is. Dendrochronology is more reliable, but for what areas is it developed? Here is a very, very modest area.
    2) About Nosovsky and others like him - when their first works just appeared in wide print, a friend enthusiastically brought a book, they say, look, what a miracle. I read it and immediately went nuts, turned over a few pages back. There, somewhere in the beginning, the authors write that let's say this and that. And after ten pages this "this and that" is already presented as a fact and then everything is built on the basis of this fact. From the same series Chudinov. At first, when his article was shown in Krasnaya Zvezda, he neighing. But then I saw several copies of the article on different sites. The bottom line is that he reads the inscriptions on the bronze discs there. Well, as he reads - he highlights something that others cannot see, but he can see. And it highlights not from a photograph, but from a drawing on which a shadow is drawn with dots. The darker the area, the more points the artist stuck. These are the points he reads. Yes, and those disks he held in his hands a year before the Chudinov article, there are no inscriptions on their sides.
    History is an accurate thing. But her interpreters ...
  • kalibr
    13 October 2015 16: 27 New
    +1
    You see what I squeezed out of the Fomenkoid with a direct question: "The RD method, with some assumptions, is still a scientific method and Libi's thought is still understandable, but it turned out that the method ran into a lot of obstacles and if we take into account and minimize systematic errors, then you can get closer to real dates, but so far everything has been ruined by unscrupulous scientists.
    As for the Shroud, as far as I remember, three independent laboratories gave similar results for the 13th century, and this coincides with the FIN research of the life and death of Christ, no less so to say that FIN we agreed with the RD method is wrong, so it coincided ... "That's how! The progress of the brain foam is evident! "It coincided!" FIN can "coincided that way", and others - no, no! And immediately the "unscrupulous scientists" are to blame for everything! who says "no" is a priori a "conspirator" and an unscrupulous scientist.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Glot
      Glot 13 October 2015 16: 50 New
      +1
      "Coincidentally!" FIN can "coincide", and others - no, no!


      As the saying goes, what is supposed to be for Jupiter is not for the bull. laughing
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. gothartus
      gothartus 13 October 2015 17: 06 New
      +1
      This phenomenon is interesting in Russia - a conspiracy theory in historical science, which finds many adherents. I think this is due to a general decline in education and a decrease in public interest in science in Russia. In the West, at least the German-speaking part, this is not. Although the level of school education, on average, decreased markedly in the 90's and 2000's.
      1. kalibr
        13 October 2015 17: 37 New
        +2
        The reason is clear and it is not about education. At first they said LENINISM - THIS IS ALL ... The Bolsheviks - honor and conscience ... Then it turned out that many "that", and before that there were "that". In Pravda in 37th, Tukhachevsky was first the son of a peasant, and then a landowner. Exactly in 3 months! First, Stalin is the father of the people, then ... And so in everything. In 1988, in the special storage of Leninka, I found an English book on the BMP M3. Particleboard for the phrase - "the fighting compartment of the Russian BMP-1 is very cramped." And so in everything! Then came the "discoveries" of the late 80s and early 90s. Here the brains of people and loosened. They began to think that everyone was deceiving them, especially educated people. My students asked me everything I tell them, or do I keep something for myself? He asked me to think about what would happen if not everything: sooner or later they would find out and what would happen? Believe it all the same with difficulty. We have to explain that in addition to knowledge, there is also experience and hard work. That's how our people are. Everywhere they are deceived, but to lift the ass, reach the archive and check ... laziness! And it is clear that smart and unprincipled people take advantage of this.
      2. kalibr
        13 October 2015 17: 39 New
        0
        By the way, I published a book in Russian in Germany - the historical novel "Pareto's Law". If you can - order through Amazon, read ... You will not regret it. Everything is there on memoirs, archival data and figures. Although there is fiction - a novel after all!
      3. War and Peace
        War and Peace 13 October 2015 17: 51 New
        0
        Quote: gothartus
        This phenomenon is interesting in Russia - a conspiracy theory in historical science, which finds many adherents. I think this is due to a general decline in education and a decrease in public interest in science in Russia. In the West, at least the German-speaking part, this is not. Although the level of school education, on average, decreased markedly in the 90's and 2000's.


        Compare our history and German, the struggle for RUSSIAN PIES has probably begun with Ivan4 and ALL THE OTHER RULES OF RUSSIA-RUSSIA, have ended their lives not of their own free will, or almost, don’t you notice? or if they themselves departed, then there must have been rebellions and riots. And in your Germany, what? Germany was not interesting to anyone, therefore there was no such struggle for thrones. Russia is ANOTHER QUALITY than everyone else is understood, but not recognized, and special sciences such as history and linguistics-philology were created specifically so as not to reveal the mysteries of the past, but rather hide them, which is done ...
        1. kalibr
          13 October 2015 18: 23 New
          0
          I am not an expert on the history of Germany, I know the history of England and France better. And everywhere it was the same as with us - they strangled, hounded, there were riots ... They fought for power. At one time, French Minister of Culture Maurice Druon wrote a cycle of novels "The Cursed Kings". Everything is written there according to the chronicles of St. Denis. So what? One to one is our story. In terms of methods. Only there is a stone, and we have a tree. That's the whole difference. We left the rye field, said Klyuchevsky, and the French from the vineyard.
          "and such special sciences as history and linguistics-philology were created specially, so as not to reveal the mysteries of the past, but on the contrary to hide them, which is being done with all his might ..." - and this is already complete MARASM!
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 13 October 2015 20: 41 New
          +1
          but such special sciences as history and linguistics-philology were created specially so as not to reveal the mysteries of the past, but rather hide them, which is done with all its might ...


          ... And all foreign languages ​​are specially invented so that normal people do not understand anything! This is a CONSPIRATION! All normal people from time immemorial speak Russian-patern. belay
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 13 October 2015 21: 23 New
            0
            not everything, but .. it happens .. it happens .. it happens .. wink
            the same thieves' fenya, and many others, they generally arose especially in the mountains and on small islands (so that strangers would not understand) ...
        3. Glot
          Glot 13 October 2015 21: 28 New
          0
          Russia is ANOTHER QUALITY than everyone else is understood, but not recognized, and special sciences such as history and linguistics-philology were created specifically so as not to reveal the mysteries of the past, but rather hide them, which is done ...


          You just said such nonsense that it’s just a star. And what is most likely stupid, that what you said contradicts itself but you cannot see this, because you do not understand and do not even think about what you are repeating. laughing
          It just needs to be placed in the "quotation book of our town" for ever and ever. laughing
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 13 October 2015 21: 36 New
            -1
            Not that he wrote a smart thing about people like you. yes
            1. Glot
              Glot 13 October 2015 22: 43 New
              0
              Not that he wrote a smart thing about people like you


              About these, which ones? laughing
              1. Scraptor
                Scraptor 13 October 2015 23: 58 New
                0
                Do you know yourself? Well, at least who is it?
                1. Glot
                  Glot 14 October 2015 06: 59 New
                  +1
                  Do you know yourself? Well, at least who is it?


                  Who where ? laughing You even competently are not able to formulate a question. laughing
                  1. Scraptor
                    Scraptor 14 October 2015 07: 03 New
                    0
                    you are not able to correctly understand. bully
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. kalibr
        13 October 2015 18: 29 New
        0
        By the way, congratulations. You got great material, BRAVO! I read it with great interest. Let's go on. Just my theme: The English-language historiography of the knightly armament of Eurasia. So I'm especially interested!
      6. The comment was deleted.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 13 October 2015 22: 28 New
    0
    Quote: alebor
    It seems to me that the number of history fans from TNT and RenTV and M. Zadornov is directly related to the quality of education in our schools. The lower the quality, the more fans.

    It seems to me that REN.TV .--- They lure people interested in history, but Zadornov is an obvious pest. He vulgarizes our history, jokes. The country's history is funny, so mean, nothing serious, NOTHING great. Here are his jokes. They have a finished look and there is no need to study anything - here is the meaning hidden behind the laugh!
    1. Scraptor
      Scraptor 13 October 2015 23: 23 New
      -1
      so directly entice that the shell on the masonry cracks and goosebumps laughing
  • Alisher
    Alisher 14 October 2015 00: 56 New
    0
    irradiation of carbon forms carbon-14

    Here is the actual error. N14 + n = C14 + p +
    Carbon-14 is formed from nitrogen-14. If it were as in the article, then on the ISS it would be possible to get gold from lead. wink

    The method of radiocarbon dating has a natural error estimated by A. Sklyarov at 10-15% of the age of the sample. At the same time, samples younger than 200 years old fall into the error of the method, for example, when studying the shell of ostrich eggs (Horowitz, 1978), for two modern samples, an age of 200 years was obtained. Samples older than 10 thousand years will have an even greater error, since there will be no accurate data on the calibration curve, which is based on the dendrochronology method.
    The main sources of error:
    1. cosmic radiation is not constant and is constantly changing. The level of this radiation in the past is calculated from indirect data, with certain assumptions. There are certain years, sometimes with a difference of hundreds of years, in which the level of carbon-14, taking into account the decay, was the same! that is why laboratories are asked to indicate the expected date of the sample in order to understand where to take it in this case.
    2. When measuring the content of radiocarbon in modern wood samples from different countries, a spread of about 6% was obtained (Andersen), from 14,53 to 16,31 decays per gram per minute.
    3. The absorption of carbon by different living organisms is not the same. The carbon-14 content, for example, in shells and wood will be different, and the method is calibrated for wood, since plants receive carbon-14 mainly from air, directly, and the carbon-14 content in different wood species is close. Animals first eat plants, then each other, and the carbon-14 content will be different in different species.
    4. for biological processes, there is a difference between carbon 12, 13 and 14, since their weight is different. For plants, the correction for isotopic fractionation is 2,6%.
    Source: Andrey Sklyarov, Civilization of the Gods of Ancient Egypt, Appendix 1.
    1. Glot
      Glot 14 October 2015 07: 03 New
      +1
      The method of radiocarbon dating has a natural error estimated by A. Sklyarov at 10-15% of the age of the sample.


      And I estimate the error at 0,2-0,3% of the age of the sample.
      Who am I? laughing And who is Andrey Sklyarov? Ahhh, the one who writes about the aliens who built the pyramids ... laughing I’ll go to the janitor of our Nazim, I’ll go and ask how much he will estimate the error. laughing
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 14 October 2015 08: 39 New
    0
    !!! Scraptor !! I didn’t set the minus for you, I will continue my thought if you do not understand what it is about.
    In these REN.TV stories, there is respect for Russia and its people. If something is fantastic, there is a desire to find out - as it really is.
    Zadornov has ready-made cliches - to laugh, joke and forget. I am sure that you are not laughing, do not joke about the history of people close to you.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 14 October 2015 10: 35 New
    0
    Summer is over. There is a catastrophic lack of time. Everything is on the run, on a gallop. Neither read nor write. Your favorite articles, Vyacheslav, have been postponed until the weekend. I am embarrassed to ask: Svetlana Shpakovskaya --- ??? Her articles are different from yours rather journalism? I read with pleasure.
  • Elena2013
    Elena2013 14 October 2015 15: 09 New
    +1
    I would not be surprised if archaeologists and historians of the future intentionally or mistakenly stretch the events of the last 100-150 years for millennia. bully