Military Review

Japanese helicopter carriers: a threat to the Kuril Islands

150



The destroyer "Izumo" full displacement 27 thousand tons! Why do Japanese call destroyers of these large aircraft carriers with a solid flight deck, being careful not to call things by their proper names?

There is no secret in the classification itself. Mine-artillery ships weapons They are a thing of the past, while the terminology is preserved. Modern names have not taken root. Here destroyers grow to the size of aircraft carriers.

Classification is usually conditional. Ships of similar size can have a sharp contrast in functionality. Thus, domestic destroyers evolved into large anti-submarine ships (BOD). Destroyers of the western countries are positioned as air defense escort ships. As part of Japan’s naval self-defense forces, such a class as “destroyers-helicopter carriers” was traditionally present, similar in appearance and designation to Soviet anti-submarine cruisers of the “Moscow” type.

Japanese helicopter carriers: a threat to the Kuril Islands


By the end of the last century, the limited capabilities of the old “Haruna” and “Shirane” forced the JMSDF management to think about the creation of new ships with advanced capabilities for aircraft basing. However, this desire went too far beyond the ban on the possession of offensive weapons. An attempt to create an aircraft carrier could initiate complications in international relations and undermine the image of Japan as a peace-loving country “Permanently renouncing the use of armed force as a means of resolving international disputes” (Constitution, Article 9).

The JMSDF leadership was forced to search for district routes, disguising its intentions in streams of obvious and unscrupulous lies.

In 1998-2003 The Japanese fleet was replenished with three tank-landing ships of the Osumi type. Military experts immediately noted the oddities in their design. “Osumi” is deprived of the main feature of tank landing ships - the bow ramp for landing armored vehicles. At the same time, the presence of the 170-meter flight deck and stern dock camera brings Osumi closer in capabilities to universal landing craft like the French Mistral.

The Japanese themselves claim that the “Osumi” are intended to drop troops on their own territory (!) In order to redeploy military equipment in the event of a war. Which is partly confirmed by the geography of the island nation. In addition, the small helicopter carrier is deprived of a hangar deck and is not intended for long-term deployment of aircraft.


Tank landing ship "Osumi". Total displacement of 14 thousand tons. Speed ​​22 knots. Combat load: up to eight helicopters and two hovercraft. 330 paratroopers (if necessary, this figure can increase three times). Cargo deck capacity: 10 main combat tanks. Means of self-defense of the ship: two anti-aircraft systems “Phalanx”

The first attempt to create a large aircraft carrier did not meet with resistance from the international community. And the Japanese ventured to continue work in this direction.

In 2006, Hyuga was laid. Supereminer with a continuous flight deck and many characteristic features of aircraft carrying ships, incl. hangar deck and two lifts.



In general, despite the scandalousness of his image, “Hyuga” was a harmless design with minimal offensive potential.



The Japanese helicopter carrier is still too small to accommodate modern fighter-bomber on board, and it does not have any means to simplify the take-off and landing of aircraft. Neither the characteristic “springboard”, nor the catapults, nor the arresting gear.

From similar in appearance and size of helicopter carriers - amphibious "Mistral", the Japanese "destroyer" is distinguished by high speed (up to 30 units) and the absence of a stern dock for amphibious armored vehicles and amphibious boats.

Finally, solid built-in weapons (16 rocket mines, typical ammunition - 12 anti-submarine missiles and 16 anti-aircraft ESSM) under the control of the ATECS control unit (Japanese analogue of Ajis). Also the newest radar with eight active phased antennas (four for detection, four for missile guidance). For self-defense in the near zone, a pair of six-barrel “Falanxes” and six TAs are used to launch small-sized anti-submarine torpedoes.

Established air group - up to 16 anti-submarine and multi-purpose helicopters type SH-60 or MCH-101. In 2013, the possibility of basing the American convertiplane V-22 Osprey aboard the Hugues was demonstrated.

The appearance, dimensions and characteristics of “Hyugi”, in general, confirm its stated purpose. Anti-submarine ship with hidden amphibious potential. In peacetime - search and rescue missions and sentinel service on the high seas. In the military - the transfer and dropping from the air of the personnel of the self-defense forces of Japan. Where? The Japanese leadership does not give a clear answer to this question.

A much more sinister event was the appearance of the following type of Japanese destroyer-helicopter carriers - 22DDH Izumo.

Names for new ships picked up what you need!

“Izumo” - in honor of the armored cruiser, a member of the Tsushima battle, later famous for his treacherous attack on the British and American ships in Shanghai (December 8 battle 1941 of the year).

The second helicopter destroyer, launched in August of this year, was named Kaga. In memory of the strike aircraft carrier whose aircraft bombed Pearl Harbor.



Izumo is really amazing with its size. In length, it exceeds the British lightweight aircraft carrier Invincible by 40 meters. Its regular crew is 470 people, while the actual number of military personnel on board (including aviation technical personnel and airborne troops) can exceed a thousand people.

The four turbines of the General Electric LM2500 disperse the whopper to the 30 nodes.

Despite its steepness, the destroyer is equipped with a “trimmed” version of the radar FCS-3 with four surveillance AFAR (without the ability to control rocket weapons, which, moreover, is absent). The creators of Izumo completely abandoned any built-in weapons (with the exception of Phalanxes and SeaRAM self-defense complexes).

Destroyer weapons will be fully presented aviation.

The staff of the air group - seven anti-submarine and two search and rescue helicopters. This is a lot for such ships with a solid flight deck with a length of 248 meters.

What will really stand on the flight deck and in the Izumo hangar?

Most likely - fighters with a short takeoff and landing. That is, the American F-35.

But do not rush to draw conclusions!

It is known that Japan does not possess any VTOLV and even in the future it is not planned to purchase such equipment. The Japanese contract for the supply of F-35 (42 aircraft) includes only vehicles of modification “A”, i.e. conventional fighter-bombers with a classic airfield base. The creation of VTOL by own forces is unlikely and is not advertised anywhere.

In addition, despite its size, the helicopter destroyer Izumo, as well as the Hyuga, is devoid of catapults and take-off jumps. What makes it impossible to take off from its deck ship planes like “Super-Hornet”.

There is a threat of participation of Izumo in the next international operation to eliminate undesirable countries in the Middle East, with the deployment of the US Marine Corps on F-35B (as on the amphibious Wospah and the Americas). But we have to admit that such a scenario is unlikely. Japan would not create a special aircraft carrier for wars in the Middle East, while its overlord has enough aircraft carriers of its own.

Japan has two eternal problems. North Korea and the Kuriles. Not so long ago, a third one appeared - China, the economic confrontation with which took the form of a conflict over the disputed Senkaku Islands.

Admittedly, the tank-landing Osumi, like the more modern Hyuuga and Izumo, is of little use for war with Comrade Kim or for a serious confrontation with the Chinese fleet.

Obviously, the main purpose of creating these “destroyers” was to ensure the possibility of landing on the sparsely populated islands and taking control of the Kuril Ridge. At the same time, the flexible composition of air groups makes it possible to place on board a sufficient number of anti-submarine helicopters to neutralize the domestic submarine fleet - the only threat in the chosen direction.

It is in this format that the capabilities of seven Japanese helicopter carriers are best realized.

Afterword

The only thing that remains to be added within the meaning of this article is the incredible, by domestic standards, construction time. “Hyuga” and its “Ise” sisership were laid and put into operation in less than three years. Moreover, as was indicated in the description of the destroyer-helicopter carrier, this is not about “ferries”, such as “Mistral”, which are built using the technologies of civil shipbuilding.

“Hyuga” - there is a full-fledged warship, when looking at which lines from The Destroyers are recalled:

Herd a hundred thousand horses
A single will is compressed.
The enemy will choose from all paths
One - to the bottom and to hell!
Good luck to those who will live.
See you - who will die.
It is God's work for us to administer!
Before communication. And go!


Helicopter destroyer with a huge power plant, rocket weapons and a modern set of fire detection and control, which would envy a different missile cruiser.

Japanese shipyards threshing equipment with terrifying speed. Over the past 10 years, the JMSDF has been supplemented with 10 destroyers (missile and aircraft carriers), a military icebreaker and nine multipurpose submarines (including the six newest “Soryu” - with an air-independent Stirling engine, whose capabilities are comparable to nuclear powered ships).

The pace of construction of a much larger (albeit more primitive in equipment than the “Hyuga”) Izumo helicopter destroyer also made up only three years. At the same time, its value amounted to 114 billion yen (1,2 billion dollars) - which looks quite reasonable for a ship of this size and destination.

Like a hundred years ago, mockery of the "macaques" can be costly for our country. Japan is a competent and strong opponent. And the greater the honor will be if we are able to keep the balance of forces with her on the same level.

Virtual excursion aboard Hugo:











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  1. Magic archer
    Magic archer 25 September 2015 06: 18 New
    +8
    For landing operations just right .. The distance from Japan to the Kuril Islands is minimal, so the fleet will be covered by the Japanese Air Force. Apparently the samurai are counting on this ..
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 25 September 2015 07: 43 New
      20
      Quote: Magic Archer
      Apparently the samurai are counting on this ..

      They are not so stupid as to try to get the Kuril Islands by force. The small territory and large crowded population, with modern methods of delivering weapons of mass destruction, do not leave any chances for the success of such adventures.
      1. Mera joota
        Mera joota 25 September 2015 07: 56 New
        +4
        Quote: Bayonet
        They are not so stupid as to try to get the Kuril Islands by force.

        In our "beloved" and damned nineties, when you could buy anything from the always hungover Yeltsin, when Japan was at the peak of its power (economic), they (the Japanese) made no attempt to buy the Kuril Islands, unlike the Chinese who took " controversial "territories, although they could. Therefore, the power version of the solution of the Kuril issue in the field of science fiction.
        1. Darkmor
          Darkmor 25 September 2015 12: 05 New
          +6
          What kind of nonsense?
          Japan does not need special landing and aircraft carriers to capture the Kuril Islands.
          You look at the map - they can sail to the Kuril Islands on a wooden raft.
          We can NOT stop Japan from seizing the Kuril Islands.
          Another thing is that this will be considered a declaration of war.

          Such ships are built on the basis of forecasting a military conflict, which will require the capture of port cities of the Russian Federation or China.
      2. Greenwood
        Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 13 New
        +5
        Quote: Bayonet
        with modern methods of delivering WMD
        I think there is no need to explain that no one will ever use WMD in Japan. Conflicts over the border territories have been resolved by conventional weapons all their lives.
        1. Bayonet
          Bayonet 25 September 2015 08: 55 New
          +5
          Quote: Greenwood
          I think there is no need to explain that no one will ever use WMD in Japan.

          Well already applied a couple of times and they are well aware of the consequences. This will cool any hot samurai heads. hi
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 03 New
            +2
            Applied in the conditions of a total world war after many years of numerous battles in vast territories, and not a limited struggle for 4 islands between the two countries. Used as soon as the weapons appeared, having no idea about the consequences of such use.
            1. K-50
              K-50 25 September 2015 12: 13 New
              11
              Quote: Greenwood
              Applied in the conditions of a total world war after many years of numerous battles in vast territories, and not a limited struggle for the 4 islands between the two countries.

              "The rabbit is not only a skin, but also dietary meat" (c)
              This is not 4 islands, this is the territory of Russia and the adversaries can get it only when they are converted into fertilizers and nothing else! am hi
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 13: 03 New
                -15
                Thank God, people like you do not sit in government, even in a wretched and corrupt country like ours.
                Quote: K-50
                adversaries can get it only when converted into fertilizers and nothing else!
                No ruler has ever reasoned like this, at least in modern times.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 25 September 2015 18: 42 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Greenwood
                  Thank god people like you don't sit in government

                  Thank god people like you don't sit in government
            2. Serg65
              Serg65 25 September 2015 20: 40 New
              +2
              Quote: Greenwood
              Applied in the conditions of a total world war after many years of numerous battles in vast territories, and not a limited struggle for the 4 islands between the two countries.

              It’s one thing, “Samurai decided to cross the border by the river that night ..”, another thing is landing with the corresponding actions of aviation and naval artillery on adjacent islands !!! Another thing is that Oleg went too far and finished his review of the Japanese Navy with provocative remarks about the Kuril Islands and about "macaques", but why such provocations from Oleg is another question!
        2. Bayonet
          Bayonet 25 September 2015 09: 31 New
          +5
          Quote: Greenwood
          Conflicts over the border territories have been resolved by conventional weapons all their lives.

          It is possible and not nuclear, it is possible and usual, for example ODAB.
          The photo is clickable.
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 51 New
            0
            Or maybe just destroy the Japanese contingent that captured the islands, and threaten to further conflict put Japan at the negotiating table ?! IMHO, the most civilized solution to the problem for the state level of Russia.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 25 September 2015 20: 44 New
              +2
              Quote: Greenwood
              Or maybe just destroy the Japanese contingent that captured the islands, and threaten to further conflict put Japan at the negotiating table ?!

              Do you really think that the Japanese government decides with whom to fight, and with whom to negotiate ???
        3. Spitfire
          Spitfire 25 September 2015 09: 43 New
          +6
          Quote: Greenwood
          Quote: Bayonet
          with modern methods of delivering WMD
          I think there is no need to explain that no one will ever use WMD in Japan. Conflicts over the border territories have been resolved by conventional weapons all their lives.


          But do not over the territory. Enough across the ocean to make a good tsunami.
          1. K-50
            K-50 25 September 2015 12: 14 New
            +3
            Quote: Spitfire
            But do not over the territory. Enough across the ocean to make a good tsunami.

            Well, you are a monster! belay laughing
        4. K-50
          K-50 25 September 2015 09: 59 New
          +4
          Quote: Greenwood
          I think there is no need to explain that no one will ever use WMD in Japan.

          There, even without weapons of mass destruction, wherever you drop a rocket or a bomb, many thousand yupps will turn into dust, they live on each other’s heads because of crowding. So it will be difficult to miss and there will be many victims.
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 54 New
            -11
            Quote: K-50
            they live there on top of each other because of crowding.

            Quote: K-50
            wherever you drop a rocket or bomb
            Well, then why drop missiles and bombs on them? Are we Nazis? Or are the Americans? What do you want to prove this ?! Can it still be enough to recapture the islands and sit down to the negotiations ?! Tough, but still negotiating.
            In the end, we are not North Korea, which threatens a total nuclear war and a sea of ​​fire for any populist rally of the southerners.
            1. K-50
              K-50 25 September 2015 11: 05 New
              13
              Quote: Greenwood
              Well, then why drop missiles and bombs on them? Are we Nazis? Or are the Americans? What do you want to prove this ?! Can it still be enough to recapture the islands and sit down to the negotiations ?! Tough, but still negotiating.

              That is, you suggest that we do not touch their population, and ours, who live in the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin, get rid of them? belay
              Yes, it’s better to send milen dzhaps to Amaterasu gardens than one Russian child will suffer because of their Wishlist !!! am
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 49 New
                -9
                Quote: K-50
                and ours, who live in the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin, to hell with them?
                Why are you pulling Sakhalin? Who said that the capture of the islands will be accompanied by a loss of population? The Japanese, as far as I know, have the concept of bloodless seizure of territories (the same principle by which we occupied Crimea). And at the same time, a whole program has been developed to entice the mood of the local population to their side.
                Quote: K-50
                Yes, it’s better to send milen dzhaps to Amaterasu gardens than one Russian child will suffer because of their Wishlist !!!
                Even the "bloody tyrant" (c) Stalin during the war was not guided by this principle. Russian soldiers spared the civilian population of enemy Germany and other European countries. The phrase "Hitlers come and go, but the German people remain," I think it’s not worth reminding.
                1. K-50
                  K-50 25 September 2015 12: 21 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Greenwood
                  Why are you pulling Sakhalin?

                  Is it just that we’re sitting next to it, or will you guarantee for the yupps that they will only shoot at the Kurilm and not much more? won't our civilian ships be seized (even if only until the end of the "conflict"), will not our consular offices, company offices and others find themselves nearby? fool
                  So they won’t remember about the rights of non-combatants, the spilled krovushka will stiffen everything up, so don’t promise it.
                  1. Greenwood
                    Greenwood 25 September 2015 13: 07 New
                    -3
                    Quote: K-50
                    It’s just that we’re sitting next to it
                    It's about the Kuril Islands. The capture of Sakhalin will require much more resources and equipment.
                    Quote: K-50
                    our consular offices, company offices and others who are not nearby will suffer?
                    Are you hurt in Crimea?
                    1. K-50
                      K-50 25 September 2015 14: 06 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Greenwood
                      Are you hurt in Crimea?

                      And Crimea? Was there a war with the Japanese? You start raving something. request
                      1. Greenwood
                        Greenwood 25 September 2015 16: 18 New
                        -4
                        I draw a parallel.
                        Quote: K-50
                        Was there a war with the Japanese?
                        The Japanese do not plan war as such, but expect to limit themselves to lightning capture with a minimum of casualties among the civilian population. That is how ours occupied Crimea.
                      2. Serg65
                        Serg65 25 September 2015 20: 53 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Greenwood
                        The Japanese do not plan war as such, but expect to limit themselves to lightning capture with a minimum of casualties among the civilian population.

                        My dear, I’m reading your comments and (I apologize for my collective farm) ohren. wassat Are you or so naive that you consider the capture of other people's islands (with an alien population), this is the same as in a sediment in a country house to pick strawberries from a garden bed! About the comparison with Crimea, it’s just cool, or do you have information that the Kuril population has a voluntary desire to change citizenship ????
                      3. Praetorians
                        Praetorians 27 September 2015 10: 37 New
                        0
                        You, however, carry nonsense and confuse the banks !!!
                      4. Aleks28
                        Aleks28 27 September 2015 10: 39 New
                        0
                        Quote: Greenwood
                        The Japanese do not plan war as such, but expect to limit themselves to lightning capture with a minimum of casualties among the civilian population. That is how ours occupied Crimea.

                        Japs current still on hippies and whispers ... Well, nonsense ... belay
              2. K-50
                K-50 25 September 2015 14: 05 New
                +4
                Quote: Greenwood
                Even the "bloody tyrant" (c) Stalin during the war was not guided by this principle. Russian soldiers spared the civilian population of enemy Germany and other European countries.

                Weed poorly, that’s all Mr. .. and grew again. Even Suvorov seemed to say, "weed" should be thoroughly. You look and there would be no revanchist and fascist sentiments in the world.
                1. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 25 September 2015 16: 18 New
                  0
                  Precisely, it was necessary to let all of Germany into consumption. Until the last baby. You what.
              3. Ishinomaki
                Ishinomaki lie 25 September 2015 15: 16 New
                +5
                Learn the story and you will learn a lot about the peace-loving Japanese ...
              4. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 25 September 2015 20: 53 New
                +1
                The Japanese, as far as I know, have the concept of bloodless territories
                Have you heard anything about the "Nanjing massacre"? Google the photo ...
          2. K-50
            K-50 25 September 2015 12: 17 New
            +4
            Quote: Greenwood
            Can it still be enough to recapture the islands and sit down to the negotiations ?! Tough, but still negotiating.

            And who is stopping them from negotiating now? or until they get tryndules, will it not reach the brain? Well, let them not be offended if there are too many tryndules, if only not enough. laughing
            1. Greenwood
              Greenwood 25 September 2015 13: 08 New
              -5
              Quote: K-50
              if there will be too many tryndule, if only not a little
              They should be proportionally. No more no less.
              1. K-50
                K-50 25 September 2015 14: 09 New
                +2
                Quote: Greenwood
                They should be proportionate. No more no less.

                And who will observe the norm when non-combatants die, that you are talking nonsense! fool
                The stronger and faster we crave, the ultimately there will still be fewer victims, as they will quickly change their minds.
                1. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 25 September 2015 16: 21 New
                  0
                  Quote: K-50
                  Stronger and faster
                  You would have your energy, but in a peaceful direction. Do sports for example.
                  Quote: K-50
                  so ultimately fewer victims will be
                  If you crave for any reason about nuclear weapons, there will be fewer victims.
                2. AUL
                  AUL 25 September 2015 19: 21 New
                  -3
                  K-50
                  And who will observe the norm when non-combatants die, that you are talking nonsense! fool
                  The stronger and faster we crave, the ultimately there will still be fewer victims, as they will quickly change their minds.

                  That is how the Americans are still justifying the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki!
                  K-50, calm down already!
              2. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 25 September 2015 20: 57 New
                0
                So "proportionally" this is just according to Skobelev: for half a century no one would raise his head!
    2. zyablik.olga
      zyablik.olga 25 September 2015 11: 14 New
      +4

      There is no secret in the classification itself. Mine-artillery ships are a thing of the past, while the terminology is preserved. Modern names have not taken root. Here destroyers grow to the size of aircraft carriers.

      The author is mistaken about the classification of the Japanese "destroyers" no The fact. that Japan is legally prohibited to have ships above the destroyer class. Although many warships of the Japanese Self-Defense Forces, in fact, destroyers had long since outgrown.
  2. Private27
    Private27 25 September 2015 11: 25 New
    0
    And how long does it take to fly an ICBM to Tokyo?
  3. silver_roman
    silver_roman 25 September 2015 12: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: Magic Archer
    For landing operations just right .. The distance from Japan to the Kuril Islands is minimal, so the fleet will be covered by the Japanese Air Force

    nonsense. one combat unit, even though it is a 100500 ton vessel, cannot affect the Kuril Islands. That at least they will drive a dozen such troughs. all this for nothing. If they dare to direct their Navy towards the territorial integrity of a nuclear power, then the consequences could be fatal to the fate of the Japanese nation. Even the point is not that our Pacific Fleet is weaker than the players in the Pacific basin and, in particular, the Japanese Navy. If everything were so simple, then there would be no Russian Federation.
    In general, the article is sound, just the headline makes me a little crazy. Less emotion or something! and so a good reviewer! +
  • Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b 25 September 2015 06: 40 New
    0
    Japan adversary Serious! This is reality! With Russian carelessness and betrayal within the country, the consequences can be disastrous. In Soviet times, the Pacific Fleet was a powerful structure, now it is rapidly being reduced to nothing. Boreas per year on a teaspoon do not solve the problem. It is unlikely that anyone will use nuclear weapons in Japan. We are heading for the abyss ... There is no real power in Russia capable of holding on to vast and, moreover, territories far from well-fed Moscow. Only money in my head! Even so many clappers appear on the VO site when the same Ka-52k are sold to Egypt. Do not foolish people understand that for all this the lives of the Russian military and citizens will be paid? And Grandmas came and went ...
    1. 78bor1973
      78bor1973 25 September 2015 07: 22 New
      +4
      You mean that in Russia there is no real strength, you can tell your elderly grandmother, well, the Japs have a good aircraft carrier, and that China showed them a fist under their nose and they wiped themselves and will be wiped off for a long time!
      1. Greenwood
        Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 16 New
        -4
        Quote: 78bor1973
        there is no real power in Russia
        This is true. There really is no political force for a long time. There is a bunch of thieves involved in stuffing pockets and the same bunch of populists portraying the confrontation with the West and gaining a rating for themselves (they naturally do not forget about pockets). And military power without political power is nothing, an example of the USSR of the second half of the 80s is before our eyes.
        Quote: 78bor1973
        China showed their fist under their nose and wiped themselves and will be wiped away for a long time!
        China does not have a single significant military victory in modern times. And Japan in general, without any problems, kicked his ass.
        1. Bayonet
          Bayonet 25 September 2015 09: 17 New
          15
          Quote: Greenwood
          And Japan in general, without any problems, kicked his ass.

          China is not what it once was! Do you feel the difference?
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 00 New
            -5
            I feel "not the same" ogreb from Vietnam weakened by the war in the 79th. The Chinese have been traders all their lives, but not warriors.
    2. strannik1985
      strannik1985 25 September 2015 07: 36 New
      +2
      Japan adversary Serious! This is reality!

      Hmmm ...
      SNF. Google to the rescue.
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 25 September 2015 08: 01 New
        -5
        SNF and even TNF are very, very ultimate means to use it. Since it is possible to run into an otter or go to the DPRK to complete outcasts (not sanctions, but a complete blockade of everything + threats to attack tomorrow morning).

        Plus, for example, on the 8 of the day when nothing was clear at all, and peacekeepers died in the encirclement, no one flopped TNWs either in Tbilisi or in the army’s positions.

        If we continue the same logic, then initially they will fight exclusively by conventional means, only with defeat the question of nuclear weapons will arise.
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 25 September 2015 08: 18 New
          +3
          SNF and even TNF are very, very ultimate means to use it. Since it is possible to run into an otter or go to the DPRK to complete outcasts (not sanctions, but a complete blockade of everything + threats to attack tomorrow morning).

          The aggressor country will be neither cold nor hot, especially since the world is not homogeneous if Japan is the aggressor (in fact, and not in the opinion of the "world community", it’s clear who will be on whose side), only the USA and pro-American oriented countries will support the blockade.
          DPRK became an outcast long before gaining the status of the country-owner of nuclear weapons.

          Georgia attacked foreign territory with forces inferior even to the 58th Army of the North Caucasus Military District, and here they attack the territory of the Russian Federation and forces far exceeding, you understand the difference?
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 36 New
            -11
            Quote: strannik1985
            and here they are attacking the territory of the Russian Federation and by forces far superior
            Pff, this is the problem of the Russian Federation, that at these lines we have not enough aviation and a frail fleet. But again, no reason to use nuclear weapons. No one will take such a risk. Yes, and then you can’t turn around the problems, both political and environmental.
            1. strannik1985
              strannik1985 25 September 2015 08: 54 New
              +5
              Pff, this is the problem of the Russian Federation, that at these lines we have not enough aviation and a frail fleet. But again, no reason to use nuclear weapons. No one will take such a risk. Yes, and then you can’t turn around the problems, both political and environmental.

              If officials of the Japanese Self-Defense Forces did not familiarize themselves with the military doctrine of the Russian Federation, this is their problem.
              Do you like to make yourself an ignoramus?
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 04 New
                -7
                The military doctrine of the Russian Federation is one. The reality and the current situation with multiple factors is different.
                1. strannik1985
                  strannik1985 25 September 2015 11: 07 New
                  +2
                  I am glad to know your personal opinion, can you justify it somehow? Not with lengthy discussions about the meaning of life, but with arguments based on sources?
                  1. Greenwood
                    Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 56 New
                    -4
                    I have already described in sufficient detail here why the use of nuclear weapons is excluded in a possible conflict over the islands. And the recommendations for the use of nuclear weapons in the Russian military doctrine do not mean that they will be automatically followed in any given geopolitical situation. And our leadership, with all its cheating, is not a suicide, but with a similar act they will sign a death sentence (in the political sense, of course).
                    1. strannik1985
                      strannik1985 25 September 2015 12: 07 New
                      +3
                      You described goal conflict, and in order to achieve it, jiaytai will have to liquidate the Russian Armed Forces in the region, primarily the infrastructure and airplanes of the Air Force, PPB objects and Pacific Fleet ships, including PPB Rybachy, guess what is there?
            2. K-50
              K-50 25 September 2015 10: 24 New
              +6
              Quote: Greenwood
              Pff, this is the problem of the Russian Federation, that at these lines we have not enough aviation and a frail fleet.

              Strategic Rocket Forces - it sounds proud and scary (for the adversary)! laughing
              I apply, I repeat, with a threat to the integrity of the state!
              If Japan climbs, it will not be a problem for Russia; it will be a problem for Japan itself.
              Well, who knows, maybe they decided to carry out a population correction? request
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 56 New
                0
                The question is, where do you live? (in which city and region of the country).
        2. K-50
          K-50 25 September 2015 10: 19 New
          +4
          Quote: donavi49
          SNF and even TNF are very, very ultimate means to use it.

          Imagine that 10 Satan warheads fell in Tokyo in a non-nuclear thermobaric design. This is already thousands of dead. Because of their overpopulation, the Japanese are very vulnerable for the civilian population. Both nuclear power plants and other power plants will be hit. Without electricity, all of life in Japan will immediately stop. Do you think that the Japanese will stoically withstand the hardships and troubles of war?
          Of course not. As with all peoples with brainwashed and craving for comfort, they will quickly change their government and seppuku make them do it. Well, they are not fighters anymore, not fighters.
          So sleep well.
          They can squeak, resent, put forward protests. But!
          "The sheriff's blacks don't care!" (with) hi
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 00 New
            -9
            Quote: K-50
            10 Satan warheads fell in Tokyo in a non-nuclear thermobaric design. This is already thousands of dead. Because of their overpopulation, the Japanese are very vulnerable for the civilian population. Both nuclear power plants and other power plants will be hit. Without electricity, all of life in Japan will immediately stop.
            You dream of it right with a sadistic anticipation. About the geopolitical, economic and environmental consequences for Russia, about the radioactive cloud over all of Asia, about the deplorable prospects of the Primorsky Territory and the neighboring regions of Russia did not think ?!

            Honestly, I'm really shocked. Adult people in all seriousness in response to the possible seizure of the Kuril Islands offer to wipe Tokyo and other large cities with millions of inhabitants from the face of the Earth. It’s good that there are no such maniacs even in our nearby government.
            1. K-50
              K-50 25 September 2015 11: 16 New
              +6
              Quote: Greenwood
              You dream of it right with a sadistic anticipation.

              How much is sadistic? Fine. If they want war, then let them get it with all the bonuses in the form of destroyed infrastructure of cities, the death of the population with significant casualties. After all, they will want the Kuril Islands, and we will not start sending greetings to them with rackets.
              Regarding the subscription of Matrasia. They all entered into DEFENSE. I.e. If Japan or another allied country attacks them (NATO, for example, the same alliance) and at the same time there is an opportunity not to raked nuts on mattresses, they simply say "an agreement on defense, not aggression, we can’t help you with anything." And it will be so, because how to force the Americans to die for someone else, and not the supremacy of democracy, the voters will not understand. request
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 06 New
                -3
                Quote: K-50
                If they want war, then let them get it with all the bonuses in the form of destroyed infrastructure of cities, the death of the population with significant casualties.
                What for??? It is possible to solve the problem by the limited use of force, repulsing the islands back or not allowing them to be captured. Why turn this into a total war? Simply put, why bring everything to the point of absurdity? Russia has enough opportunities for an adequate non-nuclear response, only the army and navy need to be developed and updated not only on the border with Ukraine, but also in our area, and even more so on the islands.
                Quote: K-50
                they want war
                If anyone wants her, then only the pro-American elite of the Japanese parliament, and that’s not all. Most opposition parties are against. The population is also against Japan’s getting into any wars and conflicts. Most of the townsfolk have not heard about these same "northern territories" in Tokyo.
            2. K-50
              K-50 25 September 2015 11: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: Greenwood
              Honestly, I'm really shocked. Adult people in all seriousness in response to the possible seizure of the Kuril Islands offer to wipe Tokyo and other large cities with millions of inhabitants from the face of the Earth.

              To prevent this from happening, they just don’t have to climb the Kuril Islands, Russian territory! am angry laughing
          2. AUL
            AUL 25 September 2015 20: 02 New
            -1
            K-50
            Do you think that the Japanese will stoically withstand the hardships and troubles of war?
            Of course not. As with all peoples with brainwashed and craving for comfort, they will quickly change their government and seppuku make them do it. Well, they are not fighters anymore, not fighters.

            Are these Japanese not fighters? belay A people whose idea has been hammered into their heads since childhood that their own life is nothing before the welfare of the state and the emperor, that the highest valor of a man is to die for their homeland, are these not fighters? Read at your leisure the history of World War II, about the war in the Pacific Ocean, you will understand what they are "not fighters"!
            And yet, on military doctrine, strategic nuclear forces, tactical nuclear weapons, etc.
            Military doctrine is a theoretical simulation of strategy in a future war. Like any forecasting of the future, it is always very approximate and often does not pass the test of reality. An example of this is the weather forecast. In addition, the simulation takes into account the published doctrines of potential opponents. Who guarantees that these published doctrines are not disinfectant (ours included)? So, it’s not realistic to take into account all possible scenarios and develop recommendations for each. "Cases - they are different!" (C)
            SNF is the last chance to avoid a conflict with a nuclear power. Therefore, the use of nuclear weapons is unlikely in any situation, because it is clear to everyone that after the use of nuclear weapons there will be no winners. Like the defeated and outside observers. Do not rely on the "limited, targeted application of nuclear weapons" - starting with nuclear weapons, no one can stop already!
            1. Assistant
              Assistant 25 September 2015 21: 56 New
              +1
              A people whose idea has been hammered into their heads since childhood that their own life is nothing before the welfare of the state and the emperor, that the highest valor of a man is to die for their homeland, are these not fighters?


              That, of course, is true, but only since 1945 have the samurai been led. Too much succumbed to the example of mattress covers, too accustomed to comfort. A good example of the real resilience of modern samurai is the situation with Fukushima, when the station's management was completely squeezed out, and work on liquidating an emergency at a nuclear reactor (nuclear, Karl!) Was done per hour on a teaspoon.
              So IMHO today's kawaii squint are ready to kill, but not ready to die.
      2. Greenwood
        Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 17 New
        -3
        Quote: strannik1985
        SNF
        Across Japan with a bunch of nuclear plants? 800 km from the densely populated south of Primorye? Because of another cross-border conflict? Are you out of your mind ???
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 25 September 2015 08: 20 New
          +8
          Because of another cross-border conflict?

          Capture the Kuril-cross-border conflict?
          1. Penetrator
            Penetrator 25 September 2015 08: 32 New
            11
            Quote: strannik1985
            Because of another cross-border conflict?

            Capture the Kuril-cross-border conflict?

            The comrade does not understand the difference between a border conflict and direct military aggression. For him, an attempt to capture the Kaliningrad region will also be a “border conflict”.
            1. Greenwood
              Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 39 New
              -6
              And the attempt to capture the island of Damansky by the Chinese in 1969, in this case, is not military aggression? By the way, for some reason, it was stopped by a nuclear attack on Beijing, a paradox.
              You cannot understand in any way that such conflicts cannot be resolved through the use of WMD. And even more so in relation to a non-nuclear country located near your borders, with a bunch of population and a large number of nuclear power plants in its territory.
              1. strannik1985
                strannik1985 25 September 2015 08: 59 New
                +1
                And even more so in relation to a non-nuclear country located near your borders, with a bunch of population and a large number of nuclear power plants in its territory.

                These are the problems of the officials of this country.
                You cannot understand in any way that such conflicts cannot be resolved through the use of WMD.

                What is your personal opinion? Just what out of a finger?
                But is it not fate to get acquainted with the role of strategic nuclear forces in the military doctrine of the Russian Federation?
                And the attempt to capture the island of Damansky by the Chinese in 1969, in this case, is not military aggression? By the way, for some reason, it was stopped by a nuclear attack on Beijing, a paradox.

                Those. Are you also not familiar with the concept of the scale of the conflict? Great.
                1. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 25 September 2015 09: 59 New
                  -4
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  But is it not fate to get acquainted with the role of strategic nuclear forces in the military doctrine of the Russian Federation?
                  Ku-ku. Let's look at the world realistically. SNF is, first and foremost, a weapon of US deterrence and an instrument for promoting one’s interests in foreign policy. The attack by a neighboring country, I note a non-nuclear one, against one of the constituent entities of the federation is not a reason for using it. For many reasons.
                  Firstly, this is an extremely disproportionate use of force, which will really lead to a threat to Japanese statehood (we are not going to destroy an entire state because of 4 islands), while an attempt to capture the border island does not threaten the existence of huge Russia as a separate state. If some tipsy bully pester you in the street and hit you in the face, you won’t kill him for it. And you, in fact, are proposing exactly this way to resolve conflicts.

                  Secondly, this will lead to numerous human losses from the Japanese side, including civilians. We love scolding Americans for the inhumane nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we ourselves will go the same atrocious way, right ?!

                  Thirdly, the territory of Japan is covered by a whole network of nuclear power plants, the destruction of at least one of which will lead to an ecological catastrophe worse than Chernobyl and will certainly affect large areas of the Russian Far East, as well as almost all Asian countries. Mass evacuation of civilians to safe areas in the face of imminent radioactive contamination will be required. Asian countries, which will certainly come under attack, will refuse any cooperation with Russia for many decades.

                  Fourth, Russia's authority on the world stage will be omitted below the plinth. Last friends and allies will turn their backs on us. All conceivable and inconceivable sanctions, prohibitions and restrictions will be applied to us. Harassment, threats, and a call for reprisals against Russians and Russian-speaking populations of other countries will begin around the world. Many innocent people will suffer. The image of a Russian person in the eyes of the whole world will be tarnished for many years to come. No one will remember that Japan began the conflict.

                  Fifth, the unstable and already highly dependent on the energy market of Russia after the above staggered even faster. The collapse of the ruble will intensify, prices and tariffs in the domestic market will rush up at the speed of light. The standard of living will fall even more. Most major construction projects and projects will be stopped. Reducing funding will lead to layoffs, rising unemployment, and at the same time increase the level of tension in society and the criminal situation in general. At the same time, the wealthy strata of Russian society will leave the country en masse, dragging everything that lies badly, the outflow of capital will increase. Welcome to the 90s.
                  Oh yes, I forgot to say. In the case of the use of nuclear weapons, the Americans are most likely to intervene in the conflict, who are obliged to protect Japan, and this is already a threat of the Third World War. No one will untie her because of the four islands.
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 25 September 2015 11: 19 New
                    +4
                    Firstly, this is an extremely disproportionate use of force, which will really lead to a threat to Japanese statehood.

                    Inability / unwillingness to read Russian backbone documents is a problem of the aggressor country.
                    Secondly, this will lead to numerous human losses from the Japanese side, including civilians.

                    Similarly.
                    Thirdly, the territory of Japan is covered by a whole network of nuclear power plants, the destruction of at least one of which will lead to an environmental disaster worse than Chernobyl

                    Similarly, the aggressor is responsible for such events.
                    Fourth, Russia's authority on the world stage will be omitted below the plinth.

                    Than? The fact of protecting the country from an enemy superior in conventional armaments on a theater?
                    Fifth, the unstable and already highly dependent on the energy market of Russia after the above staggered even faster

                    Unwillingness to respond to external threats to the authorities will be even worse:
                    1. External enemies are activated, seeing the enemy’s weakness, and we have enough of them.
                    2. Defeat will not be forgiven within the country and it will not be a people, but a group in power, from impeachment to a coup.
                    Oh yes, I forgot to say. In the case of the use of nuclear weapons, the Americans are most likely to intervene in the conflict, who are obliged to protect Japan, and this is already a threat of the Third World War. No one will untie her because of the four islands.

                    And this is the problem of the initiator country.
                    1. Greenwood
                      Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 17 New
                      -4
                      I’m talking to the wall, by God.

                      Quote: strannik1985
                      Inability / unwillingness to read Russian backbone documents is a problem of the aggressor country.
                      And then we will have to justify ourselves to the whole world for the disproportionate use of force, because Russia will already look like an aggressor in the eyes of the whole world, and you will not refute it with anything.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      Similarly, the aggressor is responsible for such events.
                      Yeah, it will be easier for the people evacuating from Primorye due to an environmental disaster. Would you even think about us, about the locals, those who live next to Japan.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      The fact of protecting the country from an enemy superior in conventional armaments on a theater?
                      Yes. In the eyes of the world, Russia has a strong enough army to do without nuclear weapons. The fact that the Kuril forces are not enough, the world will not notice. So, we must not chew the snot and cut the budgets, but develop these very “conventional weapons” while there is time to exclude the possibility of using nuclear weapons in the future.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      Reluctance to respond to external threats
                      It is necessary to respond to external threats adequately to the threat itself, and not like an elephant in a china shop.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      1. External enemies are activated, seeing the enemy’s weakness, and we have enough of them.
                      2. Defeat will not be forgiven within the country and it will not be a people, but a group in power, from impeachment to a coup.
                      All this is possible in the case of an inadequate nuclear response, which is promoted by many of the comrades here. That is why there must be a middle ground - a well-trained armed contingent on the islands, a reserve force on Sakhalin, as well as the broadest support for aviation and navy. For Japan, this is enough.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      And this is the problem of the initiator country.
                      This will be our problem, as you can’t understand ?!
                      1. [comment-show]
                        strannik1985
                        strannik1985 25 September 2015 12: 35 New
                        +1
                        And then we will have to justify ourselves to the whole world for the disproportionate use of force, because Russia will already look like an aggressor in the eyes of the whole world, and you will not refute it with anything.

                        How will it be disproportionate if, in order to succeed, the enemy will have to destroy the military presence of the Russian Federation in the region (what is on a permanent basis and reinforcements)? Including MSNF Pacific Fleet, PPB Rybachy Bay.
                        Yeah, it will be easier for the people evacuating from Primorye due to an environmental disaster. Would you even think about us, about the locals, those who live next to Japan.

                        In this extreme case, civilian objects will fall under attack, primarily cities, large transport hubs, stocks of materials, control hubs, etc.
                        Yes. In the eyes of the world, Russia has a strong enough army to do without nuclear weapons. The fact that the Kuril forces are not enough, the world will not notice.

                        The world will notice what they say.
                        Moreover, the use may be limited, after repeated warnings, on a separate facility in Japan to demonstrate serious intentions.
                        [quoteReplying to external threats should be adequate to the threat itself, and not like an elephant in a china shop.]

                        As you do not understand. The conflict will not be on the scale of 4 islands against Japan, to achieve success for the Japanese have strike all over the Far East, which cannot but cause an escalation of the conflict with an unpredictable result.
                        All this is possible in the case of an inadequate nuclear response, which is promoted by many of the comrades here.

                        If they are attacked only these 4 islands, and this is nonsense.
                        This will be our problem, as you can’t understand ?!

                        You just do not understand what steps the Japanese will have to take for a successful military operation.
                        [/ comment-show] [comment-deleted]
                        The comment was deleted.
                        [/ comment-deleted]
  • Greenwood
    Greenwood 25 September 2015 13: 20 New
    -2
    Quote: strannik1985
    to succeed, the enemy will have to destroy the military presence of the Russian Federation in the region (what is there on a permanent basis and reinforcements)? Including MSNF Pacific Fleet, PPB Rybachy Bay.

    Quote: strannik1985
    the Japanese will have to strike all over the Far East, which cannot but cause an escalation of the conflict with an unpredictable result.
    I believe that the Japanese are working on options for resolving the Kuril conflict without the operations you mentioned. They will not go to the destruction of military facilities outside the Kuril ridge. And even more so naughty on the base of submarines in Kamchatka.
    Quote: strannik1985
    If only these 4 islands are attacked
    I led the discussion based on an attack on only 4 islands. Japan can hardly dare to do more.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 25 September 2015 13: 31 New
    -2
    I believe that the Japanese are working on options for resolving the Kuril conflict without the operations you mentioned. They will not go to the destruction of military facilities outside the Kuril ridge. And even more so naughty on the base of submarines in Kamchatka.

    There is no military solution without the “mentioned operations” only if the ALL military group of the Russian Federation in the Far East removes itself from the conflict.
    I led the discussion based on an attack on only 4 islands. Japan can hardly dare to do more.

    Then what are you worried about? Russia will quietly transfer forces from other theaters and destroy both the occupation group and the fleet covering it.
  • Greenwood
    Greenwood 25 September 2015 16: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: strannik1985
    Then what are you worried about?

    Quote: strannik1985
    Russia will quietly transfer forces from other theaters and destroy both the occupation group and the fleet covering it.
    I hope that this will be so, and that will be enough.
    I am much more concerned about the calls of some ardent comrades to naughty with nuclear missiles for any reason. It’s easy there, sitting outside the Urals, to talk about it when it doesn’t concern you.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 25 September 2015 18: 10 New
    -2
    I am much more concerned about the calls of some ardent comrades to naughty with nuclear missiles for any reason. It’s easy there, sitting outside the Urals, to talk about it when it doesn’t concern you.

    This is not a big fantasy than the Crimean scenario with the current state of affairs for the Kuril Islands.
    In 1994, the United States and the Russian Federation gave guarantees to the legitimate government, and not to the impostors who came to power through a coup, the post-Maidan fighting efficiency of the Ukrainian Armed Forces against the Russian Armed Forces = 0, a large military group was legally located in Crimea.
  • K-50
    K-50 25 September 2015 14: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: Greenwood
    And then we will have to justify ourselves to the whole world for the disproportionate use of force, because Russia will already look like an aggressor in the eyes of the whole world, and you will not refute it with anything.

    Well, not everyone is dancing to the mattress magic tune in the world, so whoever the aggressor will understand, even if someone howls exactly the opposite. But how did the aggressor die? request
    Well, do not go in and receive would not have to. laughing
  • K-50
    K-50 25 September 2015 11: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: Greenwood
    Ku-ku. Let's look at the world realistically. SNF - First and foremost, US deterrence weapon

    Ku-ku, how is the US containment different from the containment of Japanese invasions of the Kuril Islands? belay
    The same eggs only in profile! laughing
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 20 New
      0
      Quote: K-50
      how US containment differs from Japan’s containment on the Kuril Islands
      And how do Ukraine’s claims to Crimea differ from Japan’s claims to the Kuril Islands ?! The same. The scale! So the military response and the nature of weapons must be proportional to these very scales.
      1. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 14: 36 New
        +1
        Quote: Greenwood
        And how do Ukraine’s claims to Crimea differ from Japan’s claims to the Kuril Islands ?!

        Crimea all its life was the territory of Russia, for which it fought with Turkey and the Crimean Tatars. And they fought not just like that, but in order to stop the raids on Russia. Each year, hundreds of thousands of Slavs went to slave markets in Turkey and other countries of Asia Minor because of these raids. You would live quietly and peacefully, you see, the other owners of Crimea would be. But no, it’s necessary to ride on, kill the old, small prisoners, plunder and break everything, and steal domestic cattle too. So they have accumulated trouble for themselves. So the owners of the Crimea have changed. Moreover, there was no mention of Ukraine then. And the fact that Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine is also the same nation. And neither when giving, nor when sharing in the 91st year, no one asked the population. And when the population had the opportunity to choose, that’s the result for today. so Crimea has nothing to do with Ukraine.
  • ver.sei
    ver.sei 25 September 2015 11: 42 New
    -1
    Well, that’s all - the student cried ... I would have killed a bully, and probably the girls don’t go with you ... I’m not going to take prisoners for 3 world war prisoners on barges and in the sea, under water. the only way to save Russia, without such liberst_v like you ...
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 25 September 2015 13: 25 New
      0
      Quote: ver.sei
      I would kill a bully
      On the Internet we are all brave, I know.
      Quote: ver.sei
      I am for the 3rd world war; I do not take anyone captive, prisoners on barges and at sea, under water.
      It remains only to burn the finished Nazi.
      Quote: ver.sei
      the only way we save Russia
      One already saved Germany in due time.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 25 September 2015 13: 10 New
    0
    If some tipsy bully pester you in the street and hit you in the face, you won’t kill him for it. And you, in fact, are proposing exactly this way to resolve conflicts.

    If I have a legal, civilian SO, I will act in accordance with the law on self-defense: “Stop, I will shoot!”, A warning shot (if a group, armed or surprise attack is not carried out), if these measures do not work, then I'm sorry ... I’m sorry ... I don’t know his intentions, maybe he has a knife in his bosom or a shocker, maybe he distracts my attention, and behind a pair of friends with pipe trunks suits?
  • Greenwood
    Greenwood 25 September 2015 09: 59 New
    0
    Quote: strannik1985
    Are you also not familiar with the concept of the scale of the conflict?
    It’s familiar. But the landing of a limited contingent on the small island of Habomai or even in the neighboring large Kunashir is not a hypothetical invasion of the millionth “Kwantung” group in Primorye or there on Kamchatka, the capture of Vladivostok and further advance to the North with massive use of bomber aircraft, fleet, etc. , with the prospect of a complete loss of the Far East.

    I repeat once again, such conflicts are resolved by conventional weapons: aviation, navy, air defense, ground armored vehicles, etc. It is precisely them that should be developed in this region, without giving the Japanese a chance to doubt our defenses. To rely on nuclear weapons in any such conflict is to sign their helplessness. This is North Korea’s lot, with all due respect to it, but not to Russia with its developed defense industry and a bunch of defense plants.
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 25 September 2015 11: 30 New
      -1
      I repeat once again, such conflicts are resolved by conventional weapons: aviation, navy, air defense, ground armored vehicles, etc.

      We continue. The term "conflict escalation" is not familiar to you either?
      Why did you decide that this conflict will be limited to an island and the RF Armed Forces in the region will disappear? And when will the Pacific Fleet suffer losses during the island’s deblockade?
      1. Greenwood
        Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 26 New
        +1
        Quote: strannik1985
        this conflict will be limited to an island
        And you have already extrapolated the Kuril problem to all the neighboring territories of Russia. Take higher, the entire Far East is at risk, cho!
        Quote: strannik1985
        The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in the region will die?
        I hope that this does not happen and that the issue is resolved by small forces. Moreover, I hope that this conflict will not occur at all, and we will continue to be friends with Japan. In Primorye, we have many joint projects with the Japanese and an established tourist flow to visit each other. I don’t want to lose all this.
        Quote: strannik1985
        when will the Pacific Fleet suffer losses during the island's deblockade?
        There must be a comprehensive development of the Pacific Fleet and aviation, so that this can be prevented. There is still time.
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 25 September 2015 12: 40 New
          -2
          And you have already extrapolated the Kuril problem to all the neighboring territories of Russia. Take higher, the entire Far East is at risk, cho!

          Namely, I repeat once again, for a successful military operation, regardless of how many forces will be planted on the islands, the Japanese to have eliminate the Russian armed forces in the region.
          There must be a comprehensive development of the Pacific Fleet and aviation, so that this can be prevented. There is still time.

          You did not answer the question.
  • K-50
    K-50 25 September 2015 10: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: Greenwood
    And the attempt to capture the island of Damansky by the Chinese in 1969, in this case, is not military aggression? By the way, for some reason, it was stopped by a nuclear attack on Beijing, a paradox.

    It’s just that the Chinese surrendered sharply back, managed to obey his big brother, so to speak, and therefore remained intact.
    If there was an expansion of the conflict in Primorye and Siberia, you would read about China only in textbooks. laughing
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 06 New
      -2
      Quote: K-50
      It’s just that the Chinese surrendered sharply back, managed to obey the big brother, so to speak
      The Chinese were put in place. And without nuclear weapons and missile attacks on Beijing. I propose to do the same in the case of the Kuril conflict.
      Quote: K-50
      If there was an expansion of the conflict in Primorye and Siberia,
      The keyword is if. And the capture of the Kuril Islands in the future also includes Primorye and Siberia?
      Quote: K-50
      laughing
      I see no reason to laugh.
  • Greenwood
    Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 37 New
    -6
    Quote: strannik1985
    Capture the Kuril-cross-border conflict?
    Of course. And there is no reason to naughty rockets left and right.
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 25 September 2015 08: 51 New
      +4
      The occupation of part of the country-border conflict?
      What nonsense do you consume?
      1. Greenwood
        Greenwood 25 September 2015 09: 23 New
        -4
        Not an occupation, but an attempt to capture. After all, there are military contingents on the islands, or is he completely helpless ?! At least a few hours before the arrival of reinforcements should theoretically hold out.
        Quote: strannik1985
        What nonsense do you consume?
        When a man in all seriousness proposes to shoot nuclear missiles at a densely populated country with a bunch of nuclear power plants, which will lead to disastrous consequences due to the struggle for 4 border islands, I want to ask the same question.
        1. Penetrator
          Penetrator 25 September 2015 09: 39 New
          +4
          Quote: Greenwood
          Not an occupation, but an attempt to capture. When a man in all seriousness proposes to shoot nuclear missiles at a densely populated country with a bunch of nuclear power plants, which will lead to disastrous consequences due to the struggle for 4 border islands ...

          A new word in military thought: "An attempt to seize sovereign territory by armed means is not an act of aggression." But let us immediately give these 4 islands back to the Japanese? Or, in general, all the Kuril Islands with Sakhalin, in addition, what are the little things? All the same, we won’t hold it, but the reputable Greenwood does not order to use nuclear weapons.
          1. rudolff
            rudolff 25 September 2015 10: 07 New
            +5
            Greenwood does not order the use of nuclear weapons, but the military doctrine of Russia. Everyone refers to this document, but reading seems like laziness. NF can be applied only in two cases. In response to military aggression with the use of WMD and in the case of aggression using conventional weapons, when the very existence of the state is threatened. All! There is even nothing to comment on.
            1. Greenwood
              Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 32 New
              +1
              As I understand it, here many equate the possible rejection of the 4 border islands with a threat to the existence of the state, which is wrong.
              1. Assistant
                Assistant 25 September 2015 22: 07 New
                -1
                As I understand it, here many equate the possible rejection of the 4 border islands with a threat to the existence of the state, which is wrong.


                The rejection of the 4 border islands of the Kuril ridge causes irreparable damage to the defense capabilities of the Pacific region of Russia. These islands are not important in their own right, but because they make the Sea of ​​Okhotsk the inland Russian sea. If Russia loses these islands, the American fleet will graze in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk like cows in a flood meadow, which means that the whole TAR will be under the influence of mattress carrier-based aircraft.
                Therefore, Russia will fight for the Kuril Islands to death. Forwards or the whole world, as lucky.
          2. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 10: 11 New
            +1
            Quote: Penetrator
            act of aggression
            OK. Question: Any act of aggression by the country of the neighbor must be solved by the complete destruction of this country ?!
            Quote: Penetrator
            We won’t hold it anyway
            This problem must be solved. Strengthen the contingent on the islands. Keep large reserves on Sakhalin. Tighten the fleet, anti-ship aircraft, etc. Constantly conduct exercises. Even if there is no way to restrain, then there should be an opportunity to fight back and force to peace. For some reason, the USSR did all this, and did not rely on nuclear forces (which at that time were much more powerful).
            Quote: Penetrator
            and nuclear weapons respected Greenwood does not order to use.
            He’ll hit you with a drunken drunk on the street, hit him in the face and take away the mobile, you shoot him for it or kick him with a knife, right ?!
            1. K-50
              K-50 25 September 2015 11: 29 New
              +1
              Quote: Greenwood
              OK. Question: Any act of aggression by the country of the neighbor must be solved by the complete destruction of this country ?!

              Well, complete is not necessary if they capitulate before, well, we are not animals in the end. request laughing
              Quote: Greenwood
              This problem must be solved. Strengthen the contingent on the islands. Keep large reserves on Sakhalin. Tighten the fleet, anti-ship aircraft, etc.

              "Where is the money, Zin?"
              Due to their redneckness and greed, should we spend extra-limit funds on defense?
              Yes, with this money it’s better to build extra kindergartens, add salaries to state employees, increase maternal capital. Well, you never know where a prudent landlord can spend money. What to build a concrete fence from a neighbor grabber, you can buy a gun and slam into it, if you don’t understand with words, it used to be so in Russia.
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 38 New
                +1
                Quote: K-50
                "Where is the money, Zin?"
                It seems that there is a defense. Or let Roma Abramovich be asked, he will. =)
                Quote: K-50
                should we spend extra limit funds on defense?
                Borders should be well protected, especially in areas of potential conflict. I do not see any squandering here.
                Quote: K-50
                Yes, with this money it’s better to build extra kindergartens, add salaries to state employees, increase maternal capital.
                And all this can be done if the oligarchs are shaken as it should. And Japan has nothing to do with it.
                Quote: K-50
                Than to build a concrete fence from a neighbor grabber, you can buy a gun and slam it into it, if you don’t understand with words, it used to be like this in Russia.
                If a neighbor grabber sees your strength and knows that in which case he will rake, he will not climb. And you can continue to be friends with him. Do you really want to quarrel with Japan? Do not forget, the economy of Vladivostok is largely tied to trade with this country (well, with China at the same time).
            2. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 25 September 2015 15: 34 New
              -1
              Quote: Greenwood
              OK. Question: Any act of aggression by the country of the neighbor must be solved by the complete destruction of this country ?!

              Why all?! ... stop You can simply reduce the territory suitable for living due to Hokkaido wink
        2. Forest
          Forest 25 September 2015 10: 23 New
          +3
          Several hours? Are you seriously? For a major operation, months of preparation are needed, the fleet and aircraft of Japan must be destroyed. Nuclear strikes are carried out not only in cities, but tactical nuclear is generally intended to destroy the enemy’s army. So no nuclear power plants will interfere with a nuclear explosion in the center of a warrant of Japanese ships.
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 16 New
            0
            Quote: Forest
            A major operation needs months of preparation
            Oke. And the Japanese will not have before the hypothetical invasion of the same several months of preparation, concentration of the fleet, troops, etc. ??? It will be so inconspicuous for the entire world community and especially for satellites and intelligence. It cannot be foreseen, warned, or at least prepared ?!
            Quote: Forest
            nuclear explosion
            And without nuclear weapons, Russia can no longer do in a conflict of this level ?! It has become a means of solving any problems ?! Dropped to the level of North Korea with its threats of "nuclear fire"? So the latter has no resources, and we seem to have, plus a bunch of defense factories, we release all spectrums of weapons, peppy reports about the next prodigy that came into service are constantly heard, exercises are being carried out to transfer thousands of troops with equipment to other parts of the country. Is this all for a beautiful picture of chtol?
            1. strannik1985
              strannik1985 25 September 2015 11: 59 New
              0
              ! Dropped to the level of North Korea with its threats of "nuclear fire"?

              And the DPRK, in addition to the strategic nuclear forces, has no other effective instruments, the US / ROK forces in the region are several times greater than the North Korean ones. Reasons (no reason):
              South Korea conducts large-scale military exercises about 4-5 times more often than the North. And not only the answer to the North Korean invasion is practiced on them. At the Key Resolve annual exercises in 2013, a pre-emptive strike against North Korea was practiced, and the number of participants in the exercises was 80 thousand. In 2012, 100 thousand participated in similar exercises, and the capture of the entire territory of North Korea after the collapse of the regime was worked out. During the exercises in March 2012, in which 10 thousand American marines took part, landing assaults on key North facilities were practiced.
              1. Greenwood
                Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 42 New
                +2
                That's right, totally agree. Only Russia is not the DPRK, it will have more opportunities for geopolitical and military maneuvers. And it should solve problems differently.
                Quote: strannik1985
                a preemptive strike against North Korea was practiced, and the number of participants in the exercises was 80 thousand. In 2012, 100 thousand took part in similar exercises, and seizure of the entire territory of North Korea was practiced after the collapse of the regime. During the exercises in March 2012, in which 10 thousand American Marines took part, the landing assault was practiced to key facilities of the North.
                Japan does not face anything like Russia. Therefore, there is no need to rely on nuclear weapons.
              2. strannik1985
                strannik1985 25 September 2015 12: 47 New
                0
                Japan does not face anything like Russia. Therefore, there is no need to rely on nuclear weapons.

                Uhhh ... strikes on military / civilian infrastructure are "not considered"? Capture / occupation of part of the country?
          2. Forest
            Forest 25 September 2015 21: 42 New
            0
            Tanks will fight with destroyers and ammunition on the front line to transfer SU-30? If you encounter the Japanese on land, then ours will simply roll them out to pancake. The main tank of Japan is armed with an 105-mm L7. Although the gun is good, it’s not even capable of penetrating the T-72B into the forehead, but the super-duper of the modern Type 10 as Strongholds in Ukraine. BMP and armored personnel carriers are also not new, especially since the mechanical drives are prepared under the conditions of a spherical horse in a vacuum.
      2. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 11: 22 New
        +2
        Quote: Greenwood
        When a man in all seriousness proposes to shoot nuclear missiles at a densely populated country with a bunch of nuclear power plants, which will lead to disastrous consequences due to the struggle for 4 border islands, I want to ask the same question.

        To prevent this from happening, this densely populated country needs to sit on the pope evenly and not bark, or else there will be a glass desert instead of the densely populated one and then they will certainly forget about the Kuril Islands. laughing
        1. Greenwood
          Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 44 New
          0
          Primorye, the same Kuril Islands and still a giant part of the neighboring territories of Russia and other Asian countries will also forget about normal life. Do we need it?
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 25 September 2015 12: 52 New
            +1
            Primorye, the same Kuril Islands and still a giant part of the neighboring territories of Russia and other Asian countries will also forget about normal life. Do we need it?

            The blow does not have to be massive, it may be limited to demonstrate the seriousness of intentions.
      3. strannik1985
        strannik1985 25 September 2015 11: 39 New
        +1
        Not an occupation, but an attempt to capture.

        And a successful capture attempt is not an occupation?
        When a man in all seriousness proposes to shoot nuclear missiles at a densely populated country with a bunch of nuclear power plants, which will lead to disastrous consequences due to the struggle for 4 border islands, I want to ask the same question.

        Are you normal Why did you decide that the conflict will be limited to 4 islands?
        For a successful landing, the Self-Defense Forces will have to strike at the military infrastructure of the Russian Federation in the Far East, at the Pacific Fleet ships, at the RPM of military units. Or do you think that the Russian Federation will eliminate itself from the conflict? This is not a conflict 08. and the territory of a friendly, but a foreign country, is its own.
        Also, the forces of the Russian Federation will have to strike at similar targets in Japan and not the fact that US military targets will not be hit.
  • K-50
    K-50 25 September 2015 10: 39 New
    +2
    Quote: Greenwood
    Of course. And there is no reason to naughty rockets left and right.

    That is, again allowed to chop off part of the Russian territory, as a hundred years ago?
    Yes, you rave my friend! Or so pacifist that you feel sorry for more citizens of a foreign country than your own fellow citizens!
    With any collision in the Kuril Islands, our civilians who live there or on Sakhalin will die, and you suggest worrying about the population of others?
    Yes, on poop missiles at them more and thicker to keep their whole! am
    They’ll climb themselves, so let them not be offended! If you are so worried about them, go live there, since they are nicer for you than the citizens of Russia!
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 28 New
      0
      Quote: K-50
      That is again allowed to chop off part of the Russian territory
      And to do something to prevent chopping off is not an option?
      Quote: K-50
      With any collision in the Kuril Islands, our civilians will die
      Heh, and the Japanese are now working on options for a bloodless capture of the Kuril Islands (something like our Crimea was occupied) to avoid condemning the world community.
      Quote: K-50
      on Sakhalin
      Japan does not claim Sakhalin.
      Quote: K-50
      Yes, on poop missiles at them more and thicker to keep their whole!
      Do you have a head just for eating, or are you still capable of thinking ?! Forgot about nuclear power plants in Japan? About a possible repetition of Chernobyl on a much larger scale thought? Have you thought about the radioactive threat to Vladivostok, Primorye, the same Kuril Islands and the entire Far East?
      Quote: K-50
      They’ll climb themselves, so let them not be offended! If you are so worried about them, go live there, since they are nicer for you than the citizens of Russia!
      So I ask, where do you live? Obviously not in the Far East, otherwise they would not have written such nonsense. You absolutely do not care what will happen in this region after such a war. For you, this is some kind of distant abstraction. Not for me. I live here. For me, the Far East, native Vladivostok and the Kuril Islands are not indifferent. But Japan is not indifferent to me, as it is to most fusses.
      1. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 14: 50 New
        +1
        Quote: Greenwood
        Do you have a head just for eating, or are you still capable of thinking ?! Forgot about nuclear power plants in Japan? About a possible repetition of Chernobyl on a much larger scale thought? Have you thought about the radioactive threat to Vladivostok, Primorye, the same Kuril Islands and the entire Far East?

        So no one forcibly forces yupps to go to the Kuril Islands with capture. Lick your lips from a distance, breathe evenly and everything will be quiet and calm (like in a cemetery) laughing )
        Well, if they climbed, let them not blame me. we’ll beat gently, but very hard, so as to repel further hunting laughing
        In the end, it’s not Russia that climbs their islands, but they want to visit us in the Kuril Islands, and they always acted with the aggressors in Russia, they buried them in the ground, for fertilizers. laughing
      2. Penetrator
        Penetrator 25 September 2015 15: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: Greenwood
        But Japan is not indifferent to me, like most grumbled.

        Keywords. I don’t know for all residents of the Far East and Primorye, but, personally, you have obvious collaborative sentiments. Do you think that you can get attached to the Japanese occupation administration?
  • K-50
    K-50 25 September 2015 10: 28 New
    +2
    Quote: Greenwood
    Across Japan with a bunch of nuclear plants? 800 km from the densely populated south of Primorye? Because of another cross-border conflict? Are you out of your mind ???

    Do you offer snot to chew and look at this disgrace?
    Then today yapps, tomorrow someone else, the day after tomorrow again.
    Understand one thing. In the modern world, it is only worth giving one slack and then the place will only be in the trash!
    The USSR lost the position of one of the leaders, so what? The third ten years out of the trash get out. Do you want a repeat of this story?
    Here's a joke:
    "-What if a tiger attacked my mother-in-law?"
    "- Nothing, he attacked himself, well, let him raked himself!"
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 25 September 2015 11: 36 New
      -1
      I suggest developing conventional weapons systems and adequately assessing the level of confrontation and the level of the country opposing you, so that all such conflicts are resolved least bloodless, without total destruction of each other. The suppression of Chinese aggression on Damansky Island in 1969, the forced peace of Georgia in 2008, are vivid examples of this. As you can see, there was no nuclear attack on Beijing and the bombing of Tbilisi.
      Quote: K-50
      In the modern world, it is only worth giving one slack and then the place will only be in the trash!
      From naughty left and right nuclear weapons of authority, we do not earn ourselves. And we will gain a reputation as a rogue country with inadequate leadership, which is best to stay away from.
      1. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 11: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: Greenwood
        From naughty left and right nuclear weapons of authority, we do not earn ourselves.

        For that they will be afraid and think a hundred times, but is it worth it to wake the bear again? laughing
        And do not be afraid, there will not be any rogue country, Russia will be with which they will reckon, and not try to steal a piece of its territory or somehow make it angry. am laughing
        1. Greenwood
          Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 54 New
          0
          Quote: K-50
          For that they will be afraid
          Do you want to live in North Korea? She is also afraid for unpredictable behavior.
          Quote: K-50
          think a hundred times, but is it worth it to wake up a bear again?
          When the issue of Georgia was resolved in 5 days in 2008, this was enough for the whole world to start babbling about the awakened Russian bear, which is better not to touch. Why now for this it is necessary to destroy millions of civilians?
          Quote: K-50
          there will be no rogue country
          Exactly what will happen. The USSR at one time shied away from such methods, preferring to resolve issues with limited forces and at the negotiating table. And reckoned with him. With Russia, they will simply cut off all contacts and shake the situation from the inside.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 25 September 2015 12: 58 New
            -1
            Do you want to live in North Korea? She is also afraid for unpredictable behavior.

            It is used to build up military influence in the region.
            Pyongyang has become an outcast of the DPRK long before gaining the status of a nuclear power, and even now there is no evidence of the existence of a full nuclear weapons (charge + carrier).
  • K-50
    K-50 25 September 2015 10: 09 New
    +2
    Quote: Evgeniy667b
    Japan adversary Serious! This is reality!

    Horror do not catch up! laughing
    Japan doesn’t even stick to the DPRK, and you are predicting that they’ll give us a tail! laughing
    For some reason, everyone forgets that now it’s the 21st century and nobody will fly or sail to Japan, we don’t have any helicopter-carrying destroyers for this missile and it’s just all kinds of wonderful miracles. Strategic Missile Forces can be used in case of threat to the integrity of the state, and hitting the Kuril Islands and other Japov’s show off is a direct road to a fast Japanese sucessid.
    Just do not blindly look at today's realities, and not a hundred years ago or WWII. Well, helicopter carriers and tank landing ships will not help them. It's just that Russia is a player of a completely different level. This is not patriotic nonsense, it's realities! hi
    1. Evgeniy667b
      Evgeniy667b 25 September 2015 10: 21 New
      0
      K-50 realities I saw with my own eyes. Have you been to Kunashir, Shikotan or Iturup for example in the near past? Where does your information come from?
      1. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 11: 45 New
        +1
        Quote: Evgeniy667b
        K-50 realities I saw with my own eyes. Have you been to Kunashir, Shikotan or Iturup for example in the near past? Where does your information come from?

        Why should I be there? Although honestly, I would not refuse, and I like the nature there, and the history of the region. But understand, this is the land of Russia and all grabbers should hold their Wishlist until they grab the rake.
        For example, even a hundred years ago, I had a grudge against the Yupps, for a vile attack without declaring war, the death of many citizens of the Empire and its subsequent decline, which was put precisely by a loss in this war. So I don’t see any reason to tickle where you can hit (not all the same, the word is rather weak request sad ) with all the dope angry , for the next 50-100 years, you can’t remember the greedy neighbor. laughing
        1. Greenwood
          Greenwood 25 September 2015 12: 59 New
          0
          Quote: K-50
          a century ago, the yuppa war has a tooth
          K-50, tell me honestly? What region do you live in? Have you been to Japan, do you know the culture of this country? Do you really want to destroy all this? Where does this hatred come from ?! You probably have a Japanese car. And a lot of Japanese home appliances, no ?!
          Quote: K-50
          over the next 50-100 years, you can’t remember the greedy neighbor
          We have been having good friendly relations with this neighbor for 20 years. Many Japanese are interested in Russian culture, Japanese tourists can be seen on the streets of my city every day, Japanese businessmen are willing to invest in projects in the Far East. Did you not know?
          1. K-50
            K-50 25 September 2015 15: 00 New
            +1
            Quote: Greenwood
            K-50, tell me honestly? What region do you live in? Have you been to Japan, do you know the culture of this country? Do you really want to destroy all this? Where does this hatred come from ?! You probably have a Japanese car. And a lot of Japanese home appliances, no ?!

            Yekaterinburg. I haven’t been and am not going to Japan. Why do I need their culture if they go to my country with war? belay My task as a citizen and a person liable for the reserve is not to admire their culture (hoku, geisha, tea ceremonies and cherry blossoms), but to destroy the aggressor as soon as possible with a minimum of losses for OWN country and ITS citizens. I don’t give a damn about Mount Fuji.
            My country is much more dear to me hi
            Quote: Greenwood
            We have been having good friendly relations with this neighbor for 20 years. Many Japanese are interested in Russian culture, Japanese tourists can be seen on the streets of my city every day, Japanese businessmen are willing to invest in projects in the Far East. Did you not know?

            So no one forces THEM to attack MY country !!!!!!!!!
            Let them invest money, organize their own business, I do not mind this. DO NOT crawl to us with the war, and you will be healthy and happy (maybe laughing ).
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Forest
    Forest 25 September 2015 10: 11 New
    0
    Why is it bad to sell weapons? Why deliberately destroy their industry, especially the military?
  • Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b 25 September 2015 07: 21 New
    -5
    A lot of mind to put cons is not necessary, but if you think about it !!!
    1. Penetrator
      Penetrator 25 September 2015 08: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: Evgeniy667b
      A lot of mind to put cons is not necessary, but if you think about it !!!

      Why are you so excited? Are you cons of karma? The normal process is when someone agrees with your opinion, someone does not. Have you heard the word "pluralism"?
      1. Evgeniy667b
        Evgeniy667b 25 September 2015 09: 42 New
        +1
        Penetrator! I have these cons on the drum. It kills people's reluctance to think simply. And underestimating the enemy, especially such as Japan, will not lead to anything good. Remember the Pasha-Mercedes and the "Airborne Regiment" in Grozny. The Far East has a population decline. And As the situation is on the islands, I saw with my own eyes, and very recently. Good little! And from Moscow or even Yekaterinburg everything is seen in pink, and the thoughts are completely different.
        Here the helicopters left over from the Mistral would be there just right. Kunashir, Iturup, Shikotan, and on Simushira Crater revive.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 25 September 2015 07: 31 New
    0
    Admittedly, the tank-landing Osumi, as well as the more modern Hyuuga and Izumo, are of little use for war with Comrade Kim or a serious confrontation with the Chinese fleet.

    In the Navy, the DPRK are relatively combat-ready, by and large, only submarines. EM helicopter carriers with anti-aircraft helicopters are "unsuitable" in the war with "Comrade Kim"?
    In the Navy of China, the situation is similar, only the ratio is worse.
    In the event of a full-blown conflict, Japan will in any case be supported by the United States.
    1. Mera joota
      Mera joota 25 September 2015 07: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: strannik1985
      DPRK Navy relatively operational

      The DPRK Navy is relatively efficient only with fuel, which the DPRK has always had problems with. If you look at their naval teachings, then they can cause nothing more than laughter. For example, the attack of a diesel-electric submarine in the surface position of an island playing the role of an American aircraft carrier by torpedoes. Explosion of torpedoes near the coastline and joyful exclamations with throwing caps of earflaps. Well, pleased with all this, the cheeky “all” of Korean origin ...
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 25 September 2015 07: 52 New
        +1
        The DPRK Navy is relatively efficient only with fuel, which the DPRK has always had problems with.

        This is understandable, having fuel for 30 days, but you won’t be able to fight food for 60 days. I mean the other components of the NK fleet and aviation.
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 25 September 2015 08: 14 New
      +1
      Well, North Korea there are two facts - to find fuel, and get out alive from the base. It’s far to go to Japan, and they are actually imposed on the borders, now. This is the smut of the United States and South Caucasus in general.

      You in vain underestimate the PLA Navy, now they have:
      2х052D - 64 cells for heavy missiles of the FORT-M, RCC, KR, PLUR complex and the most advanced radar + BIUS.
      6X052С - 48 missiles in the drums of the FORT-M complex. 8 RCC / KR. New radar on 4 canvases and a fairly modern BIUS.
      20x054 - 32 Shtil-1, 8 RCC / KR, and Fregat-MA radars of the latest modifications (they purchase 2-3 radars on orders, so the Fregat-MA is fresher and better on new ones than on the first or medium ones).
      80x022 is an innovative catamaran missile boat (8 RCC) in stealth architecture.

      In fact, this is already precarious parity with 6 Congo / Atago (berks) and 15-16 new frigates (light destroyers) with ESSM (sparrow).

      Only in China in the 2016 year, for example, 2x052D will be commissioned, which are completing the completion or have already gone for testing. And now they are building everything 10x052D. The Japanese are not building their own Burke. And there are 100 ships of old projects, including with the S-300F, and with the Mosquitoes. And the Japotsnev reserves are quite tight.

      But the Japanese themselves have underwater forces very ok, including brand-new boats with VNEU.
      1. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 10: 49 New
        +2
        Quote: donavi49
        Well, North Korea there are two facts - to find fuel, and get out alive from the base. To go far to Japan

        Why should the DPRK go far? They live nearby, 900 km or less. They have rockets and calmly fly to Japan! laughing
        Well understand !!! A completely different century and completely different weapons than in the last world war. Ships will be finished, not the first strike. Rather, they may be the first to leave, but they only come when the Japanese islands fall into the Mariana Trench. Maybe they will pick up a bit of geishas for themselves, well, the winner will always get a female prize for himself, nature, sir! laughing
    3. avt
      avt 25 September 2015 09: 41 New
      +5
      Quote: strannik1985
      In the event of a full-blown conflict, Japan will in any case be supported by the United States.

      YOU HERE ABOUT WHAT DISCUSSION WERE DONE ???????? YOU ALL WHAT ??? Do not understand what the author writes about ???? ------- ,, The only thing left to add within the meaning of this article is the incredible, by domestic standards, construction time. The Hyuugu and its Ise sip were laid and commissioned in less than three years. Moreover, as was indicated in the description of the destroyer-helicopter carrier, we are not talking about “ferries”, such as “Mistral”, which are built using civil shipbuilding technologies.

      “Hyuga” - there is a full-fledged warship, when looking at which lines from The Destroyers are recalled:

      Herd a hundred thousand horses
      A single will is compressed.
      The enemy will choose from all paths
      One - to the bottom and to hell!
      Good luck to those who will live.
      See you - who will die.
      It is God's work for us to administer!
      Before communication. And forward! "---------- And this he writes NOT ABOUT BARRIERS !!!!!! I also wrote to Oleg about the Zumvolt’s previous article, WE LOSE IT !!!!!! Adherents of the sect of Oleg! --- ,, Chef! Everything is lost! Customer is leaving! They remove the gypsum! "I wrote then, ,, So it will be difficult to read some kind of article soon under his signature, ,, Aircraft carriers are kings and lords of the seas." "And who of the followers with memory is bad - look at how they argued with Oleg and he proved the ABSOLUTE worthlessness of all the UDC and other aircraft-bearing naval heresies laughing and now on the descent of its Japanese version SUCH-E-E-E! ----- ,, The pace of construction is much larger in size (albeit more primitive in equipment than the Hyuuga), the destroyer-helicopter carrier Izumo amounted to only three years. At the same time, its cost amounted to 114 billion yen (1,2 billion dollars) - which seems quite reasonable for a ship of this size and purpose.

      Like a hundred years ago, mockery of “macaques” can cost dearly to our country. Japan is a competent and strong opponent. And the more honor it will be if we manage to maintain the balance of power with her at the same level "????? Bitter to me ...... BORING! BORING! laughing laughing laughing
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 25 September 2015 11: 42 New
        +1
        Before communication. And forward! "---------- And this he writes NOT ABOUT BARRIERS !!!!!! I also wrote about Oleg Zumvolt about the previous article,“ WE LOSE IT !!!!!! Adherents of the sect of Oleg! --- ,, Chef! Everything is lost! Customer is leaving! Plaster cast!

        This is not even the first bell, not so long ago discussed his article on the sailing warship PLO.
    4. K-50
      K-50 25 September 2015 10: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: strannik1985
      In the event of a full-blown conflict, Japan will in any case be supported by the United States.

      You think so? belay
      In vain! Peacetime only treaty. laughing
      As the saying goes: "to promise does not mean to marry!" laughing
      Because then rockets will fly to Matrasia, and this is the end of civilization and because of whom? Japan? Do not mix !!! laughing
  • Mera joota
    Mera joota 25 September 2015 07: 44 New
    +3
    Why do the Japanese call destroyers these large aircraft carriers with a continuous flight deck, being careful not to call a spade a spade?

    There is no secret in the classification itself. Mine-artillery ships are a thing of the past, while the terminology is preserved. Modern names have not taken root. Here destroyers grow to the size of aircraft carriers.

    Well, then the term "destroyer", i.e. destroyer is used only with us. Americans and Europeans use the term destroyer, i.e. destroyer. The Japanese call gatagoeikan, which means I don’t know, maybe someone will explain ... Therefore, there is no link to mines and artillery.
    1. Saburo
      Saburo 25 September 2015 12: 57 New
      0
      Goei-kan (護衛艦) consists of 護衛 (Goei) - which literally can be translated as a guard or convoy, historically the guard escorting the military leader on the battlefield was called historically, and 艦 (kan) is a warship. 型 (gata) is "type, class", that is い ず も 型 - Izumo Class.

      Thus, we see that Izumo is not a destroyer at all, but a patrol ship. The word "destroyer", 駆 逐 艦 (Kuchiku-kan), as the Japanese destroyers were called in the Imperial Navy, is not used. By the way, almost all surface ships with missile weapons in JMSDF are called Goei-kan weapons, it’s about the same as with Soviet aircraft carriers, which are cruiser carriers, so that the Turks would not ask questions, only here it applies to almost the entire fleet.
  • Wiruz
    Wiruz 25 September 2015 08: 15 New
    0
    Eh ... We would have such ships ... Although they promise, it seems, something like that what
  • Greenwood
    Greenwood 25 September 2015 08: 21 New
    -3
    The Japanese have always been a serious adversary. Perhaps the most serious in Asia. It is unfortunate that the Pacific Fleet has now turned into a handful of rusty trash. It is his condition that will continue to be a key factor in the possible emergence of a conflict over the Kuril Islands.
    Dreams of some comrades in the use of nuclear weapons in Japan will be left in the realm of fiction.
  • iZVerG
    iZVerG 25 September 2015 08: 35 New
    0
    Well, no, Japanese mother! Better forget about the Kuril Islands! And after all, after another aggression, there’s absolutely no land left under your feet! We'll have to grow gills and fins!
  • VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 25 September 2015 08: 47 New
    +3
    Why do the Japanese call destroyers these large aircraft carriers with a continuous flight deck, being careful not to call a spade a spade?
    We also have the Admiral Kuznetsov, according to the classification, not an aircraft carrier, but a heavy aircraft carrier.
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 25 September 2015 09: 20 New
      0
      The constitution prohibits like.
  • Kingdino
    Kingdino 25 September 2015 08: 49 New
    -1
    F35B to help, and the ugly duckling turns into quite such an offensive force.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 25 September 2015 09: 44 New
    +4
    Well, maybe Oleg Kaptsov can write normal articles! wink
    My personal opinion is that the adversary should always be respected (well, at least not underestimated). And who said that the contract for the supply of the “thirty-fifths” somewhere does not add the possibility of supplying another modification in small print? Japanese direct vassals of America and the fact that for a long time they coexisted, they did not adopt some of the owner’s habits, in particular lies and hypocrisy winked And did we feel the deck of Izumo and are sure that he is not able to take the F-35?
    Ours managed to smash weapons under the Kuznetsov’s deck and call it a cruiser. Although it’s a classic aircraft carrier, and the Japanese, without any weapons other than aviation, call a classic aircraft carrier (albeit with reservations in size and layout) a destroyer! And the point here is not in failures in the classification, but in what is referred to in politics as non-negotiation, but in the common people as a lie.
    The Kuril Islands are located at such a distance from Japan that it is much easier and more efficient to use ground aviation than to drive expensive toys near your own shore.
    Here, in my opinion, the matter is different. Nobody is going to attack Japan for the simple reason that there is nothing to take there, but you can snatch something in the midst of a global mess. Therefore, there is such an incredible transformation of the fleet, intended type exclusively for defense. That’s why aircraft carriers are called destroyers. I will never believe that the Spanish "Prince of Asturias" with 17000 with a tail full displacement to carry aircraft, and "Izumo" with its 27000 thousand tons can not !!
    He knows that the Japanese are not saying anything .... But they are lying to the common people hi
    1. avt
      avt 25 September 2015 10: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Well, maybe Oleg Kaptsov can write normal articles!

      Nooooo! Nooooo! I do not believe ! It was not Oleg who wrote SUCH about carrying ships! It was his enemy who led him with his pen! Here you can feel the experienced, enemy hand. He could not! Well, read the archive of his article on this topic and skirmish in the comments to them! That's it! I can’t take it anymore - I’ll go and drink drops of essential valerian! laughing laughing laughing
    2. Mera joota
      Mera joota 25 September 2015 12: 23 New
      -2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      The Japanese are direct vassals of America and the fact that for a long time they did not coexist some of the owner’s habits, in particular lies and hypocrisy

      Do you like stamps? I've been to Japan and China, at the expense of the false and hypocritical, so this is more to the last. My personal opinion is of course.

      Quote: Rurikovich
      And did we feel the deck of Izumo and are sure that he is not able to take the F-35?

      Let's think logically. If the Bell V-22 Osprey with a dry weight of 15 tons can be based on the Izumo deck, then the F-35B with a dry weight of 14,5 tons. definitely can, right?

      Quote: Rurikovich
      Nobody is going to attack Japan for the simple reason.

      There are controversial islands that the Japanese consider their own, do they need to be protected?

      Quote: Rurikovich
      He knows that the Japanese are not saying anything .... But they are lying to the common people

      Until the constitution is changed, there will be no planes on Izumo.
      1. K-50
        K-50 25 September 2015 15: 07 New
        +2
        Quote: Mera Joota
        Let's think logically. If the Bell V-22 Osprey with a dry weight of 15 tons can be based on the Izumo deck, then the F-35B with a dry weight of 14,5 tons. definitely can, right?

        There must be something about the heat resistance of the deck, because the jet stream can damage it severely if it is not made from the proper materials, but from what yapps made it, how do you know? hi
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 25 September 2015 15: 12 New
        0
        Quote: Mera Joota
        I've been to Japan and China, at the expense of the false and hypocritical, so this is more to the last. My personal opinion is of course.

        And I judge more by historical standards of recent times
        Quote: Mera Joota
        Let's think logically. If the Bell V-22 Osprey with a dry weight of 15 tons can be based on the Izumo deck, then the F-35B with a dry weight of 14,5 tons. definitely can, right?

        Then why not call everything by their proper names, but “mislead” by disparate quantities
        Quote: Mera Joota
        There are controversial islands that the Japanese consider their own, do they need to be protected?

        Well, if you are talking about the Kuril Islands ...
        Quote: Mera Joota
        Until the constitution is changed, there will be no planes on Izumo.

        But I’m not sure about that ... Too "good" Japanese teacher - USA wink

        And are you too good of a opinion about the country in whose territory the military bases of a foreign state are located? In terms of independence, for me personally, Japan is on a par with the Baltic states, Poland, and today's Ukraine ...
        This is my personal opinion hi
  • van zai
    van zai 25 September 2015 13: 00 New
    +1
    There was much debate about the use of nuclear weapons in a hypothetical conflict over the Kuril Islands. In my understanding, everything is much simpler. The main thing is not the quantity of nuclear weapons, but the determination to apply it. I think that through diplomatic channels Japan was informed long ago “If suddenly ... then ...” Believe me, any stubborn gopnik will not get into a fight with a man who has a “barrel” and is ready to use it without hesitation, and on the contrary there is a great temptation to rob a lady with a “pistol” "in the purse. I apologize for the yard allegory, but so much more accessible.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 25 September 2015 14: 12 New
    0
    And you imagine that now RUSSIA has reached the state of Ukraine (politically and financially), why not clean up the islands, under various pretexts?
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 25 September 2015 14: 12 New
    -1
    So it could be!
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 25 September 2015 14: 12 New
    0
    So it could be!
  • As langley
    As langley 25 September 2015 16: 48 New
    +1
    nonsense. I did not expect from this author, and the article does not stand out among the rest about Izumo.

    blah blah blah they called the colossus of the destroyer - first of all it’s our destroyer and in the west it’s a long time destroyer - destroyer, this is your own class

    blah blah blah named Kaga as a direct WWII carrier - names in all fleets of the world passed from old to new (Izumo is generally a province)

    blah blah blah attack the Kuril Islands - are you laughing? to a nuclear power? wring out the smokers? using a helicopter carrier? Yes, there will be few of all 11 US aircraft carriers, because it comes around with snow all over the planet.

    shorter frustration in the article
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 25 September 2015 17: 00 New
    0
    What exactly needs to be adopted by the USC from the Japanese is the swift construction of warships!
    After all, Russia will not order analogues of Kaga from Japan? Mystalism Frankivsk - a good lesson drinks
  • Fight cat
    Fight cat 25 September 2015 20: 35 New
    +1
    so our anti-ship system is an aircraft carrier drowned right in the port !!! It’s in vain that a division of “bastions” is being deployed on Iturup, plus the MI-28 division will be based on Iturup !!! and the air defense there was modernized! soldier
  • Talgat
    Talgat 25 September 2015 20: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Bayonet
    Well already applied a couple of times and they are well aware of the consequences. This will cool any hot samurai heads.

    Yes - used

    And yes, I agree - a full-blown conflict with Russia or China entails the risk of a nuclear strike on the Japanese aggressors

    But on the other hand, a limited conflict option is quite possible — such as with Georgia or Ukraine and the Crimea — such as a blitzkrieg military operation — and it’s too late to threaten nuclear weapons — and no one can decide

    The danger from the samurai is real - and you need to "keep your eyes open"
    And to convince them that despite the temporary weakness of the Russian fleet - the encroachment on the Kuril Islands will cause a full-scale war - so that they don’t even think

    And years through 10-15 everything! China there will be problem No. 1 for Yap and Amers, and they will not be at all up to us
  • AllXVahhaB
    AllXVahhaB 25 September 2015 20: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Bayonet
    Quote: Greenwood
    Conflicts over the border territories have been resolved by conventional weapons all their lives.

    It is possible and not nuclear, it is possible and usual, for example ODAB.
    The photo is clickable.

    Well, judging by the data - it will completely destroy the territory with the area of ​​an ordinary stadium, not completely in the surrounding streets, partly on the district’s building and will break the glass in the neighboring ones ... Cool)))
  • wolfkill
    wolfkill 27 September 2015 13: 00 New
    0
    and how much it is impossible to use the Tu-22m3 Tu-95ms with cruise missiles and PKR and Iskander and dot-u complexes and sink them like that