Military Review

Weapons and armor of soldiers of the Trojan War. Swords and daggers (part one)

97
And it was so that in the process of exchanging views on the materials published in the HE, it turned out that quite a significant part of the users of this site were interested in arms Bronze Age and, in particular, weapons and armor of the legendary Trojan War. Well - the topic is really very interesting. In addition, almost all familiar, even at the level of the school textbook stories for the fifth grade. “Copper spears,” “Helm-helm Hector,” “the famous shield of Achilles,” are all from there. And besides, this historical event itself is unique. After all, people learned about it from a poem, a work of art. But it turned out that, having learned about him, and having shown a corresponding interest, they gained knowledge about a culture unknown to them earlier.


Weapons and armor of soldiers of the Trojan War. Swords and daggers (part one)

Black-figured ceramic vessel from Corinth depicting the characters of the Trojan War. (Around 590 - 570 years BC. E.). (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

Well, you need to start from the beginning. Namely, that the myth of Troy, besieged by the Greeks, was not confirmed by convincing facts until the end of the nineteenth century. But then, for the happiness of all mankind, the romantic childhood dream of Heinrich Schliemann received powerful financial support (Schliemann became rich!) And he immediately went to Asia Minor in search of the legendary Troy. After 355 AD this name was not mentioned anywhere, then Schliemann decided that the one-on-one description of Herodotus fit the Ghisarlyk hill and began to dig there. And he dug there from 1871 for over 20 years, until his death. In this case, the archaeologist, he was no! He removed finds from the excavation site, without describing them, threw away everything that did not seem valuable to him and dug, dug, dug ... Until I found "my" Troy!



Many scientists of that time doubted that this was really Troy, but he was patronized by the British Prime Minister William Gladstone, he got a professional archaeologist Wilhelm Dornfeld in his team and gradually the secret of the ancient city began to open! The most surprising discovery of them was that they found as many as nine cultural layers, that is, each time a new Troy was built on the fragments of the previous one. The oldest, of course, was Troy I, and the “youngest” Troy IX of the Roman time. Today, there are even more such layers (and sublayers) - 46, so it was not easy to study exactly Troy!




Schliemann believed that Troy he needed was Troy II, but in fact the real Troy is number VII. It is proved that the city died in the flames of a fire, and the remains of people found in this layer, eloquently say that they died a violent death. The year when it happened is considered to be 1250 BC.


The ruins of ancient Troy.

Interestingly, during the excavation of Troy, Heinrich Schliemann discovered a treasure of gold jewelry, silver goblets, and bronze weapons, and he took all of this as the “treasure of King Priam.” Later it turned out that the “treasure of Priam” refers to an earlier era, but that is not the point, but that Schliemann simply appropriated it. His wife Sophia, a like-minded person and an assistant who secretly endured all these things from the excavations, helped him to make it unnoticed. But officially, this treasure was supposed to belong to Turkey, but she did not get it except for a few small things. He was placed in the Berlin Museum, and during the Second World War, he disappeared, and until 1991, where he was and no one knew him. But in the year 1991 it became known that since 1945, the treasure taken as a trophy is located in Moscow in the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts. A.S. Pushkin and today it can be seen in the hall number XXUMX.


A large diadem from Clade A 2400 - 2200 BC. (The Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts)

However, without any finds from this treasure we know a great deal about that time today. The fact is that professional archaeologists perceived the discovery of Schliemann as a challenge, but took into account his experience and began to dig in all the places mentioned in Homer's Iliad - in Mycenae, Pylos, in Crete. We found the “golden mask of Agamemnon”, a lot of other items of that era, and there are simply a very large number of swords and daggers.

And the good thing is that they were bronze, not iron, and therefore well preserved! So, this is what scientists, historians of various countries of the world, including the “master of swords” Ewart Okshott, think of swords and daggers of the epoch of the Trojan war, in a so-called concentrated form ...

In their opinion, the early swords of the Aegean Bronze Age are among the most striking artifacts of that era in terms of craftsmanship and luxury. Moreover, it could be ritual products, and actual weapons used in the war. Early swords evolved from daggers. Form - derived from stone daggers. The stone, however, is very fragile, and therefore a long sword cannot be made from it. With the introduction of copper and bronze, the daggers eventually turned into swords.


Sword rapier type CI. Kudonia, Crete. Length xnumx see


The handle to this sword.

The earliest swords of the Aegean period were found in Anatolia, in Turkey, and date back to about 3300 BC. er The evolution of bronze weapons is as follows: from a dagger or knife in the early bronze era, to swords ("rapiers"), optimized for a stabbing blow (middle bronze era), and then to typical swords with blades in the shape of a sheet from the late bronze age.

One of the earliest swords of the Aegean world is the sword of Naxos (around 2800-2300 BC). The length of this sword is 35,6 cm, that is, it looks more like a dagger. A copper sword was discovered on the Cyclades in Amorgos. The length of this sword is already 59. Several Minoan bronze short swords found in Heraklion and Siva. Their overall design clearly shows that they also originate from early leaf-like daggers.

But one of the most interesting inventions of the Aegean Bronze Age was the great sword. These weapons, which appeared by the middle of the second millennium BC on the island of Crete and on the territory of mainland Greece, are different from all the early models.


The famous palace at Knossos. Modern look. Photo by A. Ponomarev.


The territory occupied by the palace was huge and what they just did not dig. Photo by A. Ponomarev.

Analysis of some specimens shows that the material is an alloy of copper and tin, or arsenic. When the percentage of copper or tin is high, the blades can be distinguished even by their appearance, since they have a reddish or silver color, respectively. Whether this was done intentionally to imitate expensive metal products, such as gold and silver, so that these swords or daggers have a beautiful appearance, or is it simply the result of incorrectly calculating the right amount of alloying additives, is unknown. For the typology of bronze swords found in Greece, Sandars classification is used, according to which swords are located in eight main groups, under the letters from A to H, plus numerous subtypes, which in this case are not given due to their abundance.


Sandars classification. It clearly shows that the most ancient swords for 500 years before the fall of Troy (and it is believed to have taken place in 1250 BC) were extremely sharp! Two hundred years before it came swords with V-shaped crosshairs and a high edge on the blade. The handle is now also cast together with the blade. For 1250, swords with an H-shaped handle, which in principle can be chopped and stabbed, are characteristic. Its base was molded together with the blade, after which wooden or bone “cheeks” were attached to it on rivets.

The connection between Minoan triangular small swords or daggers and long swords can be traced, for example, on a specimen found in Malia, Crete (around 1700 BC). It has characteristic holes for rivets on the blade in the tail section and a clearly defined edge. That is, this sword, like the early daggers, did not have a handle. The handle was wooden and fastened on rivets with massive hats. It is clear that it was impossible to chop with such a sword, but stabbing - as many as you like! The decoration of its handle, which was covered with a gold engraved sheet, was amazingly luxurious, and a wonderful piece of rock crystal was used as a top piece.


Dagger about xnumx g. BC. Length 1500 cm. Decorated with a notch with gold wire.

Long rapier swords were found in the palace on Crete in Mallia, in Mycenaean tombs, on the Cyclades, on the Ionian Islands and in Central Europe. Moreover, both in Bulgaria and in Denmark, in Sweden and in England. These swords sometimes reach a meter length. All have a rivet handle, a high diamond-shaped rib, except when it has a complex decor.

The hilt of these swords was made of wood or ivory and sometimes decorated with gold overlays. Swords are dated 1600 - 1500's. BC, and the most recent samples to the period around 1400 BC. The length ranges from 74 to 111 cm. They find the sheath, or rather their remains. Based on these findings, it can be concluded that they were made of wood and often carried gold jewelry. Moreover, the preservation of metal and even wooden (!) Parts, which allowed the radiocarbon analysis of these products, makes it possible to completely reconstruct swords and daggers of this period, which was done, in particular, on the instructions of the archaeological museum in Mycenae.

Swords were worn on richly decorated lintels, the decor of which also reached our time. Well, a confirmation that such swords were stabbed are images of warriors who fight on rings and seals. At the same time, modern dating shows that a number of such swords were made in 200 years of the Homeric Trojan War!


F2c sword reconstruction by Peter Connolly.

In this regard, many historians point out that such long piercing swords were in service with the "peoples of the sea" and, in particular, the famous shardan, known in Egypt for the images on the walls of the temple in Medinet-Abu 1180 BC.

It is worth paying attention once again to the fact that the existing opinion that these swords are suitable for anything but their immediate purpose is incorrect. The replicas of these swords were tested, and they demonstrated their high efficiency precisely as piercing weapons, intended to make deadly attacks in the fight of the most genuine swordsmen!

That is, today the finds of bronze swords and daggers in the Aegean Sea region are so voluminous that they made it possible to work out their typology and draw a number of interesting conclusions. It is clear that all of them simply can not be attributed directly to the Trojan War. This is nonsense! But we can talk about the "Homeric time", the Cretan-Mycenaean civilization, the "Aegean region", etc.


Reconstruction of two swords Naue II with wooden handles on the rivets. This type of sword was characteristic of Central and Northern Europe around 1000 BC.

Moreover, the proliferation of such weapons in European countries tells us that perhaps trade relations at that time were significantly more developed than is commonly believed, so it is quite possible to say “European internationalization” and “integration” during the Bronze Age. Specifically, this can be expressed in the fact that there existed a certain seafarers people - the same “sea peoples”, who sailed around the whole of Europe and distributed Mycenaean and Cretan types of weapons, and, in particular, swords throughout the whole of Europe.


The image of the warriors of the "peoples of the sea" (Shardan) on the relief of Medinet-Abu.

Somewhere they found use, and where the war was different, these weapons were acquired as “overseas wonders” and sacrificed to the gods. In addition, we can conclude about tactics: there was a people whose soldiers were a caste, and quite closed. The warriors of this people learned to use their long piercing swords from childhood. And just to take this sword in hand, and it was impossible to cut them off from the shoulder. But then this caste died out.


F type swords depicted on the fresco from Pylos (around 1300 BC)

It took the "soldiers" for the "mass army", to teach which there was neither time nor strength, and the piercing swords very quickly changed the cutting ones. After all, the chop is intuitive in nature and much easier to master than an injection. Especially the sword of such a complex structure.


Achilles and Agamemnon: a Roman mosaic from Naples and ... a roman sword on the thigh of Achilles!

Schemes A. Shepsa
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  1. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 25 September 2015 07: 42 New
    +8
    Very interesting! Throwing swords at the Sharden Guard of the Pharaohs! Although fencing and the use of large shields? Have you found such swords in Sardinia?
    1. Vend
      Vend 25 September 2015 10: 05 New
      +5
      Article +. Just in time for the question of bronze swords.
    2. kalibr
      25 September 2015 17: 59 New
      0
      I would be glad to answer you, but this must be sought. There are so many finds that it’s just right to talk about the "culture of rapier swords," as they say about the "culture of battle axes." Offhand I don’t remember ... But I’ll look if it's interesting.
    3. kalibr
      25 September 2015 22: 21 New
      +2
      More than thirty of these swords were found in a cave burial near Sant'Iroxi on the island of Sardinia, which dates from about 1600 BC.
    4. Chiropractor
      Chiropractor 26 September 2015 16: 09 New
      +2
      The image of the warriors of the "peoples of the sea" (Shardan) on the relief of Medinet-Abu.

      It seemed to me, or are there helmets with horns?
      No, not the Vikings - the Vikings did not have horned helmets, this is impractical in battle, and not a single one was found in the graves. Although one horned one was found - the waterloo helmet, but it is from a different topic.

      Horned helmets were used in Asia by commanders.
      All narrow-eyed smile , all different armor, all yelling - a mess. And here with the horns - the boss is immediately visible.
      Well, ritual helmets ....
      But, anyway, Asia.


      We are going further. Sword F2 - variations of the gladius
      1. Chiropractor
        Chiropractor 26 September 2015 16: 56 New
        +1
        Gladius is a short infantry sword of a mass army operating in tight ranks and large shields. The naturalized barbarians who served in the legion to obtain the citizenship of Rome, the centurions weaned for a long time from a chopping strike. when it is performed, you open yourself and open the side of the neighbor.
        And here they write that F is 1150 g dne! Sorry, according to official history, a few centuries before Rome.
        Fencing swords A, B, C, and D with E - where's the guard? Somewhere that protects the brush from the oncoming stitching, or even less the chopping blow? But if you plant on a shaft - you get something like naginata. The length of these swords is great enough, and the balance is disgusting - so you can not fencing !!!
        1. kalibr
          27 September 2015 17: 12 New
          0
          I saw their reconstruction. You can fencing, no chopping. And you can stabbing.
  2. Russian Uzbek
    Russian Uzbek 25 September 2015 07: 42 New
    +4
    in the "Illiad" in the chapter "Making weapons" describes the process of making IRON weapons! iron! which proves that this part was not written by Homer, but much later;)
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 25 September 2015 08: 02 New
      +6
      which proves that this part was not written by Homer .. This does not prove anything, since Homer’s life and personality are not known for certain ... Herodotus claims that Homer lived 400 years before him .. other sources claim that Homer lived during the Trojan War .. If you say, about these works of "Iliad" and "Odyssey" .. most likely they were created by Homer based on the legends of the Ionian tribes ..
      1. Russian Uzbek
        Russian Uzbek 25 September 2015 08: 43 New
        +2
        those. it is possible with 100% probability to say that "Iliad" was written by more than one author and not one hundred years, and Homer is no less mythical personality than, for example, Achilles ...
        and more ...
        The Trojan War (if it existed at all) was going on during the Bronze Age ... there couldn’t be any IRON weapons there! Meanwhile, the manufacture of iron, which began to be made several hundred years later, is described ...
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 25 September 2015 09: 38 New
          +6
          those. it is possible with 100% probability to say that "Iliad" was written by more than one author and not one hundred years... If several authors wrote, there was no clear sequence in the narration of events and there would be several options .. Here simply, Homer gathered together the legends about the Trojan War and creatively processed them ..
          1. Alexey-74
            Alexey-74 25 September 2015 13: 24 New
            +5
            I also think that Homer relied on some early sources, then in his style he outlined these poems. Given the fact that it is common for creative people to exaggerate, embellish, exalt, etc., because of this, everyone compared Troy as something majestic, legendary, and in those distant years, the conquest of Troy was possible and was a significant regional event for the Greeks, but in general, the everyday business of those eras ... and the materials that served as the basis for Homer were chronicles with a description of the fighting ....
          2. kalibr
            25 September 2015 18: 01 New
            +2
            This is, most likely, the most conclusive conclusion. Lexical analysis of texts confirms this.
        2. Turkir
          Turkir 27 September 2015 08: 19 New
          0
          Achilles was a Scythian, i.e., according to the Greeks, had blue eyes and a quick-tempered character.
          Homer himself was a Scythian.
          Homer describes real events, but whether we understand it, then this is a question.
      2. Riv
        Riv 25 September 2015 09: 00 New
        +9
        Among other things, iron at that time was already known. Both meteorite and smelted from ore. Its use and processing is even mentioned in the Bible. Actually, there is nothing complicated in smelting, except for raising the temperature, but after it it turns out not steel, but cast iron, suitable only for shells for sling. Getting high-quality steel is much more difficult. Hence all the ancient troubles like welded weapons.
        1. kalibr
          25 September 2015 18: 03 New
          +2
          Yes, in the tomb of Tutankhamun only three iron objects were found, and about two tons of gold, if my memory serves me right.
          1. Aljavad
            Aljavad 26 September 2015 04: 28 New
            +1
            Yes, in the tomb of Tutankhamun only three iron objects were found, and about two tons of gold, if my memory serves me right.

            I read somewhere that the bronze age of Egypt lasted until the Persian conquest. Well, the pharaohs did not have available deposits! And "all progressive mankind" already forged iron ...

            Russian Uzbek
            The Trojan War (if it existed at all) was going on during the Bronze Age ... there couldn’t be any IRON weapons there!

            The historical process goes on jerky and with pauses ...
    2. avt
      avt 25 September 2015 09: 22 New
      +7
      Quote: Russian Uzbek
      in the "Illiad" in the chapter "Making weapons" describes the process of making IRON weapons! iron! which proves that this part was not written by Homer, but much later;)

      It’s a working version that infuriates the “classical” historians with fury, as well as doubts about the location of Troy as appointed by Schliemann. But try to tell them about the underdevelopment of the local Greeks compared to the inhabitants of present-day Kerch, who made and used these most harsh weapons on the enemy - Achilles then came from those lands with his armor causing envy.And he was a centaur who taught martial art.For the Greeks, the horseman and even carrying out a horseback riding was one with the horse, began to be without vocalization, and vowels even in later Russian missed that you can see on the old icons, Konnik from Tauris is a centaur, the vowels about it can be changed quite a usual thing, well, as in Ukrainian, beer is a waste for example. Well, as for Troy with a hundred other saboteurs in a wooden horse laughing That is the version of Fomenko with Nosovsky about the game of translation from Latin about the aqueduct with a horse guide, well, where the zkveduk, if memory has not failed, looks somehow more natural and practical in military affairs, rather than the classic version about Trojans during the war destroying OWN HANDS FORTRESS in order to drag a heavy wooden horse with a hundred other sly Greeks inside. laughing
      1. Glot
        Glot 25 September 2015 11: 59 New
        +8
        Konnik from Tauris is a centaur, the vowels of a change of e are quite a common thing, well, like in Ukrainian, beer is at a loss for example.


        Nope, such a "word game" to put it mildly, is not correct.
        Since for us now, it is possible to play changing “Horse from Tauris - KONTavr” BUT, how then, at that time, “Horse”, “Tauris”, “Horseman” were pronounced and written in those countries? I don’t think that since now - Horse, Tauris, etc ..
        So, all these replacements of letters, one continuous fiction, fantasy at the level of pioneers. )))
        So with literacy))) you can damn what to agree.
        Here's an example, playing with words and letters.
        Take the Volga city of Samara, and begin.
        Samara ... Ara himself ... Ara ... Armenian ... Ara himself built this city, and that city is Arin, that is, Armenian. )))) And so on and so forth ... Game with words and letters and no more.
        1. avt
          avt 25 September 2015 14: 10 New
          +1
          Quote: Glot
          So, all these replacements of letters, one continuous fiction, fantasy at the level of pioneers. )))

          As I grew up to the level of a Kamsamolets, I’ll inform you that EVUROE, for some reason, are all connected with horses, from just riders, that’s the concept of aristocrats in ancient Rome, to caballero in Gishpania, Chevalier, such a pronunciation of the Franks in CH, condottieri in late Italy and that is characteristic - ALL almost from the very beginning PROFESSIONAL wars. Here's a game of beeches. But if the Kamsamol experience tells you that centaurs came from the relationship of people with horses. Well, here only a practicing psychiatrist with at least 5 years of experience can help. I will not take up such work of persuasion.
          Quote: Glot
          So with literacy))) you can damn what to agree.

          Well, I do not specialize in patients with a tendency to bestiality.
          1. Glot
            Glot 25 September 2015 14: 46 New
            +5
            But if the Kamsamol experience tells you that centaurs came from the relationship of people with horses. Well, here only a practicing psychiatrist with at least 5 years of experience can help. I will not take up such work of persuasion.


            I believe that this is just one of many myths and nothing more.
            Perhaps in your version of his explanation there is some sane link, but this is just a version.
            And I repeat, games with permutations of the beechFF, in the likeness of A to O, O to S and so on, do not roll here. Since this word KON sounds and is written for you, for a European it will sound and be written in a completely different way, and for the ancient Greek, it will be completely different.
            Am I clearly expressing my thoughts? )))

            Well, I do not specialize in patients with a tendency to bestiality.


            So you are the same about horses, then I'm not me. Who is here about bestiality, another question. )))
            1. avt
              avt 25 September 2015 15: 21 New
              0
              Quote: Glot
              I believe that this is just one of many myths and nothing more.

              MYTH (from the Greek. Mythos - tradition) legend as a symbolic expression of some events that took place among certain peoples at a certain time at the dawn of their history. This is not from Wikipedia., Remember Sharapov - there is no punishment without fault "Next time before juggling with words, at least look at Wikipedia, I'm not talking about the encyclopedic dictionary,
              Quote: Glot
              for you the word KHON sounds and is written like this, for a European it will sound and be written in a completely different way, and for the ancient Greek, it will be completely different.

              Then you don’t have to suck this out of your finger about cavalrymen / cavaliers / chevalier / caballeros / condottieri.
              1. Glot
                Glot 25 September 2015 15: 41 New
                0
                MYTH (from the Greek. Mythos - tradition) legend as a symbolic expression of some events that took place among certain peoples at a certain time at the dawn of their history. This is not from Wikipedia., Remember Sharapov - there is no punishment without fault "Next time before juggling with words, at least look at Wikipedia, I'm not talking about the encyclopedic dictionary,


                I agree that behind every myth, there is some kind of background. I do not argue with that. But not for everyone, but for others and the background is no longer to be seen.
                The likelihood that someone, once upon a time, christened IN A CERTAIN SITUATION and a certain kind of horsemen - centaurs (half-humans - half-horses and plus warriors) and such a legend went for a walk from this DEFINITELY MOMENT. I do not argue with that.
                But here is word juggling ...
                Well, now I’m completely chewing.
                So in your opinion:

                Konnik from Tauris is a centaur, the vowels of a change of e are quite a common thing, well, like in Ukrainian, beer is at a loss for example.


                We change O to E, demolish NICK and IDS at all, merge everything and it turns out - CENTAUR, right?
                And now, get CENTAUR out of this.
                "Horseman with Tauris"
                This is English.
                What is there to replace, remove, merge?
                I repeat, HORSE, HORSE, (and why not the HORSE at all ??) in different languages ​​sounds differently.
                So, do not suffer from literary creation.

                cavalrymen / cavaliers / chevalier / caballeros / condottieri


                Well, you understand the meaning of these words, temporarily arrange. And do not forget about the estate, about the cost of a good horse (this is to the estate) and so on.
                And, well, KEN doesn’t overlook it. )))
                Do not pull on ears that cannot be pulled. Tear off your ears. )))
                1. avt
                  avt 25 September 2015 16: 51 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Glot
                  And, well, KEN doesn’t overlook it. )))

                  Naturally, he doesn’t look, and he can’t see where and from the mare, here are the Italian from the horse, and the cavalrymen from the mare are caballeros.
                  Quote: Glot
                  , Horse, Horse,

                  Quote: Glot
                  in different languages ​​it sounds differently.

                  Yeah, the Germans have a draft horse pferd, lands pferd, and a war horse - Ross. laughing They even have stores left for ,, noble "- ,, Ross und Reuter" The second word from the letters of the rider means.
                  Quote: Glot
                  So, do not suffer from literary creation.

                  I really don’t advise you to suffer, but to study, study and once again learn how, and most importantly, WHAT, in the semantic sense, make up letters, and even when and how, this contemporaries wrote these letters in various manuscripts, it is very useful for brain activity rather than idiotic memorized, classical knowledge. Then, myths for reality will not have to be exposed.
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 25 September 2015 17: 23 New
                    +2
                    I really don’t advise you to suffer, but to study, study and once again learn how, and most importantly, WHAT, in the semantic sense, make up letters, and even when and how, this contemporaries wrote these letters in various manuscripts, it is very useful for brain activity rather than idiotic memorized, classical knowledge. Then, myths for reality will not have to be exposed.


                    Well, when you, at least in one manuscript, see what they called centaurs - horsemen of Tauride, then only you can talk about History. )))
                    In the meantime, while you have a weak everything goes. It seems like beer and sand, but it is understandable, as O. Bender said:
                    - To whom and the mare's bride. )))
                    But since I think that even if you get to the manuscripts, you won’t understand a damn thing in them, because there you’ll not see the words of acquaintances. So learn history from the correct, academic publications, and don’t mess around. )))
                    1. avt
                      avt 25 September 2015 18: 28 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Glot
                      To whom and the mare the bride. )))

                      Well done, keep producing classic centaurs.
                      1. Glot
                        Glot 25 September 2015 19: 27 New
                        +2
                        Well done, keep producing classic centaurs.


                        Well, and you - successfully catch the centaurs near Kerch. laughing
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                2. Turkir
                  Turkir 27 September 2015 08: 35 New
                  +2
                  Not so simple.
                  I. Myth is not fiction or fiction, is not fantastic fiction. ”This is a fallacy of almost all“ scientific ”methods of mythology research.
                  dropped first
                  . ... this one
                  here we are interested in the mythical view of myth. And from the point
                  view of the mythical consciousness itself in no case
                  it cannot be said that myth is a fiction and a play of fantasy. ... when religious fanaticism comes to self-torture and even self-immolation, it’s very
                  it would be ignorant to assert that the mythical pathogens acting here are no more than just fiction, pure fiction for these mythical subjects.
                  It is necessary to be myopic to the last degree, even just blind, so as not to notice that myth is (for mythical consciousness, of course) the highest in its specificity, the most intense and extremely intense reality. This is not a fiction, but the most vivid and genuine reality. This is an absolutely necessary category of thought and life, far from any chance and arbitrariness.

                  Russian philosopher Losev A.F. "Dialectics of myth"
              2. Aljavad
                Aljavad 26 September 2015 04: 44 New
                +1
                about cavalrymen / cavaliers / chevalier / caballeros /
                condottieri.

                CONDOTIERY - not the topic. The word is not from "horse", but from "condition", i.e. "condition".

                CONDOTIERS. it. condottieri, from condotta, terms of employment.
                .

                Yes. All languages ​​go back to the common root. But this "root" saavsem not like Russian, ancient Ukrainian or other modern tongue. Languages ​​VERY change over time. Here, read without translating "The Word of Igor's Campaign". But less than a thousand years have passed!
                Linguistics is not an easy science. 5 years at the university is enough only to become familiar with the basics. Neither pioneers nor retirees should climb there from the bay-floundering.
                1. kalibr
                  27 September 2015 17: 14 New
                  0
                  Well said, sovsem well done!
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. kalibr
            25 September 2015 18: 09 New
            +6
            Yes - Cheval - the horse from the French, bondage - the horse from the Spaniards, cavalry - from the Italians and hence Chevalier, cavalier and caballero. But the same Arabs have a horse, a horseman, a horseman - a pharis, and the art of riding - Furusiyya. With the words “play,” Zadornov is excusable.
        2. kalibr
          25 September 2015 18: 05 New
          +1
          He knew one historian by this principle who discovered that the river Sura, which flows through Penza, was known and named by the Egyptians. Su - water, Ra - the sun - "Water Ra". And you can’t prove that this is nonsense!
          1. avt
            avt 25 September 2015 18: 35 New
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            He knew one historian by this principle who discovered that the river Sura, which flows through Penza, was known and named by the Egyptians. Su - water, Ra - the sun - "Water Ra". And you can’t prove that this is nonsense!

            Here we call the country Syria, the natives there say Surya. Must the wild people not listen to the enlightener
            Quote: Glot
            But since I think that even if you get to the manuscripts, you won’t understand a damn thing in them, because there you’ll not see the words of acquaintances. So learn history from the correct, academic publications, and don’t mess around. )))

            Although the Koran was the first to publish on their territory, and high priests were sent to Russia, contrary to the official history where the Greeks are registered, because the Patriarchs of Antioch in Russia always stayed the first number.
        3. Turkir
          Turkir 28 September 2015 09: 06 New
          0
          Samara is a pyramid. Or Mount Meru. Most likely the foundation is Indo-Slavic or Turkic, one layered on the other.
          It has nothing to do with the Armenians. Linguistics is a strict science, not a game with syllables.
    3. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 00 New
      +1
      Yes, that's right, but the weapon is described - “copper-sharp”, which speaks of tradition, isn’t it?
  3. timyr
    timyr 25 September 2015 08: 31 New
    +4
    Quote: Russian Uzbek
    in the "Illiad" in the chapter "Making weapons" describes the process of making IRON weapons! iron! which proves that this part was not written by Homer, but much later;)

    As for iron, the Hittites Guard was armed with iron swords. So there could be single swords among the Greeks.
    1. avt
      avt 25 September 2015 15: 23 New
      +1
      Quote: timyr
      So there could be single swords among the Greeks.

      Naturally and specifically from Kerch
      1. Glot
        Glot 25 September 2015 16: 14 New
        +1
        Naturally and specifically from Kerch


        And the Greeks received iron swords from Kerch, and did Achilles come from there?
        Hmm ... What does Kerch have to do with it ... Maybe it means some other Kerch? )))
        The Hittites are like the East, Achilles the Thessalian ... Hmm ...))
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 12 New
      +1
      Yes, they could, but ... not found!
  4. Riv
    Riv 25 September 2015 09: 29 New
    +6
    Isn't it time for us to believe harmony with algebra again? That is physics history ...

    The article has several photos of the reconstructed weapons. Imagine such a sword in your hand. Presented? Badly presented ... This is bronze, not iron. It will be heavier (although some brands of bronze have a density comparable to that of iron, but it is unlikely that the ancient blacksmith could melt an alloy with aluminum), and if the percentage of tin is low, it is pretty heavier. The blade is forty centimeters long, the weight of a sword is one and a half kilograms.

    Now imagine the ancient Egyptian peyzanin, whom you need to kill with this sword. Well, it's a matter of life: Ancient centuries in the yard. To go beyond your zone of defeat, peyzanin needs to take only one step. Be sure: he will do it. The peyzanin whom they want to kill is a very nimble creature. Chasing him with your knife will take a long time. In order not to run for a long time, what will you first come up with? Take a spear. You had it when you landed from the ship, but somewhere you passed it ... lost, in short. If the sword were more authentic, then the peysanin would not run from you for a long time.
    You go to the blacksmith and tell him to lengthen the well-known object. Well, the blacksmith begins to excuse himself that oats are now dear, and you give him the dough at a rate that he agrees. Ready a new sword. You take it in your hand - it turns out to be difficult. Well, attach a pen to a five-liter jar of water and shake it on your wrist. Have you figured it out? The wrist gets tired very quickly. You can’t hold such a sword horizontally for more than ten minutes, but oh well. But peysanin will not run away.

    And here you are again with the new sword disembark from the ship. Surprise! The Egyptian got a wicker shield and a club. You so boldly approach him, poke with a sword, the peasant puts up a shield and your sword bends safely. It is bronze, but bronze is not very strong. While you look at him in bewilderment, a club hits you on the head with a club. You scatter your brains and think that it was necessary not to stab with all the dope, but still sharpen the blade and try to fench it a little. But there is a nuance: a stick at a peyzanin is three times lighter. As long as you strike one, he will strike three. And you die, like many before you, who were seduced by the rapier sword.

    Here is such a reconstruction ... Sad and sad.
    1. ivanovbg
      ivanovbg 25 September 2015 12: 17 New
      +3
      If you yourself wrote this opinion, you are simply obliged to translate it into a popular science style, back it up with reliable historical references and publish it on VO as your first article here. After all, you can’t be such an egoist that you draw all the time from the treasury of human knowledge without adding anything to it.
      1. Riv
        Riv 25 September 2015 14: 05 New
        +3
        The treasury of the mind is bottomless. But in order to draw from it, you need to turn on the brain. Unfortunately, 9 out of 10 restorers do not know how to do this ...
        However, not only them. As an example, you can take at least the same Japan. Paphos, swords, samurai ... A dude without a clan or tribe appears (Miyamoto Musashi sounds like Russian Ivan Petrov) and explains to the locals that it is easier to wave a wooden sword than a steel one, and there’s a special difference than you they’ll make a head - with a club, or with a katana - no. Well, physics: kinetic energy depends on the square of the speed. That is, if a bokken moves twice as fast as a katana, and weighs half as much, then it hits twice as much. Law of nature.
        Well, the people did not immediately imbued and Musashi had to kill a few hundred people a little. And to beat his strongest opponent to death with a planed oar. What a shame! The good Samurai was beaten with a piece of wood.

        So: it’s easiest to explain something to a modern restorer using the Musashi method. :)))
        1. Glot
          Glot 25 September 2015 15: 14 New
          +5
          that a wooden sword turns out to be easier to wave than a steel one, and there’sn’t much difference between putting a sword on your head - with a club or a katana - no.


          Well, of course, then the whole world fools have perfected all kinds of blade weapons from century to century, but you just had to leave the stick and wave it. )))
          The Musashi example is not correct.
          A good specialist can cut a compartment with one knife, but this does not mean that everyone needs to throw AK and pick up knives. )))
          1. Riv
            Riv 25 September 2015 15: 59 New
            +1
            No, but not newcomers opposed Musashi, right? Just one weapon (SUDDENLY!) Turned out to be more effective than another, and of the same class. Somewhere, “Makarov” will be more useful than AK, and somewhere a stick.
            1. Glot
              Glot 25 September 2015 16: 32 New
              +1
              No, but not newcomers opposed Musashi, right? Just one weapon (SUDDENLY!) Turned out to be more effective than another, and of the same class. Somewhere, “Makarov” will be more useful than AK, and somewhere a stick.


              I agree. But in the case of Musashi (although I did not study this topic), I think the role was played by a slightly different battle system, which allowed more efficient use of the stick against the sword, which Musashi developed perfectly knowing the samurai battle system of that time.
              Although, I may be wrong. )))
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. kalibr
          25 September 2015 18: 20 New
          0
          There is a wonderful book about Musashi in 720 pages. I don’t remember the name. But I remember exactly what translation and page. Oh, well, he was there and people ... didn’t even kill, he was not bloodthirsty. But "thrashed with terrible force!" Read tired!
          1. Riv
            Riv 25 September 2015 19: 22 New
            +1
            "Ten Swordsmen." But hardly it can be considered historically reliable.
            1. kalibr
              25 September 2015 20: 22 New
              0
              Yes, yes, she! Well, as for the authenticity ... This is a novel. But is it based on something?
              1. Riv
                Riv 26 September 2015 07: 54 New
                0
                Exclusively on the fantasies of the author’s left toe. :)
                He describes Musashi’s fight with an entire fencing school there, but in reality, even if you are the God of War yourself, if you were surrounded on four sides, there is only one way out: to glue the fins heroically. Or the final fight of the book, in which, according to legend, he wielded a planed oar - this is possible, only from fierce gouging, if he drank everything from himself and could not even find a better stick.
            2. Riv
              Riv 26 September 2015 08: 02 New
              0
              Something like this...
              1. kalibr
                26 September 2015 09: 28 New
                0
                I saw this woodcut, saw a woodcut, where he fights with a monster of terrible appearance and a monument on the shore, where he just with a planed piece of oar rushes to the attack.
            3. The comment was deleted.
          2. Turkir
            Turkir 28 September 2015 09: 10 New
            0
            Musashi has a book called Five Rings.
            And what a visionary wrote a book that Musashi fought with a wooden sword?
        4. RRR
          RRR 25 September 2015 19: 07 New
          +2
          About 68 duels in which Musashi came out victorious were recorded in writing. Lying in arguments gives rise to distrust of the speaker.
          You should be more modest, more modest.
          1. Riv
            Riv 25 September 2015 19: 39 New
            0
            Try to emerge victorious in at least one, having a stick against the sword. Then be sure to demand that everything be properly written down for you.
    2. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 17 New
      0
      Where did you get that the swords in the photo weigh like a five-liter jar? The blade is narrow, the handles are not, it is wooden. And let the bronze heavier than the steel KG does not pull such a sword. Moreover, their weight is approximately known 760-1000 g. And there is a sword made of steel from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the USA (15 century) - somehow I will go to my article about swords ... Weight 1675 g. Decent, but not critical ! And nothing, people fought!
      1. Glot
        Glot 25 September 2015 19: 26 New
        0
        Where did you get that the swords in the photo weigh like a five-liter jar? The blade is narrow, the handles are not, it is wooden. And let the bronze heavier than the steel KG does not pull such a sword. Moreover, their weight is approximately known 760-1000 g. And there is a sword made of steel from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the USA (15 century) - somehow I will go to my article about swords ... Weight 1675 g. Decent, but not critical ! And nothing, people fought!


        That's right. This weapon was not heavy.
        Himself personally in the hands of more than two dozen different ancient swords and daggers overexposed. They are not heavy.
        And here I had a replica of a forged medieval sword, so that 1850 weighed. No, it is not heavy either, the first ten minutes, and then it’s harder and harder. )))
      2. Riv
        Riv 25 September 2015 19: 31 New
        0
        From there, that bronze (especially arsenic!) Is much less durable than steel. You will bend a bronze rod one meter long and one kilogram in weight without any difficulty. With even greater ease, bend a strip five millimeters thick. Compensating for lesser strength is only possible by strengthening the structure itself - a thickening blade and increasing its mass.

        But have you already been told this?
    3. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 40 New
      0
      And here I have something to say on the basis of reconstruction! I was a first-year student at the Faculty of History and English. I was very interested in Egypt, and I decided to make myself a copper dagger modeled after the Egyptian ones. Copper! And did! And with the handle of their form from "mastic" (a mixture of cement with nitro-varnish), although the Egyptians did it differently. It turned out - not to distinguish from samples from the Cairo Museum, but it was not a difficult thing. This year, no, but in the summer of the future I will most likely pour something like that to myself and then we'll see how it will be in hand!
      1. Riv
        Riv 25 September 2015 19: 38 New
        0
        Well, try to make it so that it does NOT bend or break. Literally: take a brick and embed it with a sword with all its might. It is advisable that no large damage is left on the blade and it does not have to be straightened on the knee.

        Speaking of castings ... Bronze and copper flow superbly and have low shrinkage. But instead, many small cavities form in the casting. That is, the figurine can be cast, or there is a mug, but a combat blade or a wrench will need to be forged later. Otherwise, neither will it be able to sharpen properly, nor will it give a normal load.
        1. kalibr
          25 September 2015 20: 27 New
          0
          Yes, I also read that then they were forged, which increased their quality. And you saw a photo of a rapier sword? So they bent, the blades, but ... they "pricked" anyway. This is because I only posted a part of the photo. And after all, the Archaeological Museum of Athens, the museums of Nicosia, and Knossos are full of such products! And the most, perhaps, the best blade was found at all in England in the Thames!
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 26 September 2015 05: 10 New
          0
          Well, try to make it so that it does NOT bend or break. Literally: take a brick and embed it with a sword with all its might.


          They wrote that among the legionnaires the STEEL swords were bent upon impact. They had to be straightened periodically, stepping on the foot.

          Even in the Middle Ages, it would not have occurred to many to hit with a sword on a "brick". (For example, Roland. But he beat to break his Durendal.)
          1. Riv
            Riv 26 September 2015 07: 38 New
            +1
            I guarantee you: the head in the helmet is slightly stronger than the brick, and the shield is even stronger. And after all, the enemy strives to strike just the shield under attack. :( And he, the bastard, waves his gravity, does not allow the bent bronze to straighten with a kick ...

            As an example of the strength of bronze are three Chinese Jiang swords. To the left - steel, to the right - bronze. Estimate the thickness of the blades and estimate the weight. Of course, they can be pricked, but let's say this: it is by no means a rapier.
            1. Riv
              Riv 26 September 2015 07: 43 New
              0
              I wonder what the former had instead of a hilt?
  5. Glot
    Glot 25 September 2015 10: 22 New
    +4
    An acquaintance of mine on Gissarlyk participated in excavations. Not once.
    I did not hold in my hands how many bronze or antique iron swords, almost all were very small, I came across like daggers (although maybe daggers), the handles are small, well, it’s not very convenient under my arm. )) And helmets, helmets, too, for the most part, are not on a big head.
    Small people were in their mass.

    "The famous shield of Achilles"


    They say that when Alexander the Great landed in Asia Minor, he took this shield from the tomb of those heroes, and with it he conquered the whole company. Interesting, really found and picked up? )))
    1. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 42 New
      0
      I envy your friend with black envy ... The blackest!
      1. Glot
        Glot 25 September 2015 19: 22 New
        0
        I envy your friend with black envy ... The blackest!


        Yes, I also envied him then. But he was at work there ...
  6. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 25 September 2015 13: 14 New
    +2
    Very entertaining. Somehow I never paid attention to this ... It turns out an interesting thing - the owners of piercing weapons had a high culture of fencing! Very high, otherwise these weapons simply can not be used. And it is obvious that they also understood a lot in metallurgy, such a sword can only work if it is durable.
    And then an obvious regression began to occur. How did edged weapons develop in late history? Bad iron - the thickest sword, almost count. And heavy armor, a powerful shield that he blunts and bends about. The better the iron, then the steel, the thinner and lighter the sword, then the saber, sword, rapier. And the armor was getting lighter and lighter until it disappeared altogether. Mobility, strength of the blade and skill are better than any armor, and a lighter blade is deadlier than heavy, because it is faster and more accurate.
    And then the question is - from what level did degradation occur? What is it all about - there was nothing, nothing was found and suddenly a high-level weapon, gradually giving way to worse. Some strange conclusions are obtained. Either before these rapiers there was some other weapon that did not leave any traces. Either people, its carriers, from somewhere came ... very, very strange and amusing.
    Who measured the characteristics of bronze? Is there a big difference in hardness between rapiers and "shovels"? And what are the other indicators?
    1. Glot
      Glot 25 September 2015 13: 42 New
      +1
      Very entertaining. Somehow I never paid attention to this ... It turns out an interesting thing - the owners of piercing weapons had a high culture of fencing! Very high, otherwise you simply can’t use such weapons ...........


      No, it was more likely the battle technique that played a role.
      Weak armor (protection) or its absence is the predominance of piercing technique. Since there is no need to swing, less time - more punches. To exhaust the entire enemy, he will bleed corny with blood, and with each injection will be weaker and weaker.
      The emergence of a more powerful defense pushes the emergence of more powerful swords and chopping techniques. Since this protection already needs to be cut through.
      Plus, the battle systems in the group are taken into account and not by single-scattered fighters, chaotically. When we allow some kind of construction to be cut, there will already be different techniques for using weapons, and the weapon itself.
      Plus cavalry. There are also other techniques, weapons and protection. Heavy and light cavalry, etc.
      Well, the appearance of a gunshot made adjustments both in defense and in swords, sabers and swords. But this is not antiquity. )))
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 25 September 2015 15: 18 New
        +4
        Quote: Glot
        No, it was more likely the battle technique that played a role.

        I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. Pricking weapons easily find articulation gaps, viewing holes, etc. etc. This is about defeat. About the weapon itself - go to the fencing section and ask for a show. If the weapons of one fighter are significantly heavier than the other, the first is always doomed.
        This is now, after massive processing by American marketing technology, Japanese samurai is cool. And when the British opened Japan, like a tin can with rotten meat, the samurai class was defeated very, very quickly. And not even firearms. The English officers wore swords and more even rapiers, they are easier, less burden. They had average, often very average, training of a fencer. And samurai for generations learned to wave a sword ...
        As a rule, an Englishman stabbed a samurai with the first attack, rarely the second, if he did not want to show off. Think about it - decades of training and a couple of months for an hour of classes per day. And all these sword masters and experts in super-secret tricks regularly crumbled upwards with their heels into the ditch. And in armor, it was generally a miserable and funny circus ...
        As soon as steel got better, cold steel instantly became easier, I really want to live.
        A battle in the ranks is a shield, a mantle and a heavy short sword, right. But maneuverability easily destroys such constructions.
        1. Glot
          Glot 25 September 2015 15: 51 New
          0
          I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.


          Perhaps that is so ...
          1. Riv
            Riv 25 September 2015 16: 10 New
            +2
            You both forget about the trivial thing: the sword is not the first weapon invented by man. And the first, oddly enough, was a club, which very quickly mutated into a club and then into a stone ax.

            In the Stone Age, in general, education was delivered in a quality manner. Do you know the history of your native land? The law of conservation of momentum did not answer? Into the cauldron ... The smart ones will devour normally. They say that then shkoloty on the forums did not exist at all. Well, which is simpler: shift the balance of the weapon? Tie a stone to one end of the stick - its effectiveness will increase significantly. In the limit, the pebble was simply tied to the strap and a brush was obtained. Now think: how many such "weapons" could reach us since then?

            Japan, by the way, was "opened" not by the British, but by the Americans. But it is, note.
            1. Glot
              Glot 25 September 2015 16: 36 New
              0
              You both forget about the trivial thing: the sword is not the first weapon invented by man. And the first, oddly enough, was a club, which very quickly mutated into a club and then into a stone ax.


              Correctly. This is progress. Stick / club and further increasing. According to newly discovered opportunities and knowledge.
              Now you won’t get much with a sword. They’ll shoot and that's it. And even more so with a stick.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. kalibr
          25 September 2015 18: 28 New
          +1
          Then there will be an article about armor. There will be a photo of one ... Knightly armor is not suitable for soles!
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 27 New
      +3
      You just wrote everything that haunts venerable scientists ... The same Ewart Oakeshott wrote that suddenly, no one knew where the culture came from ... How it died was clear ... traced - the Sandras table is in front of you. What about before?
      But no one knows! The daggers of the Seiminets and Turbines are well-known peoples, the bronze casters from the territory of Russia had daggers of a completely different shape! In theory, they could come to Greece from the north. But ... did not come. Moreover, in ancient bronzes there is a lot of arsenic and antimony. An order of magnitude more than if it were ore additives! In addition, arsenic burns out and antimony! So, copper first melted, and then they were added to it, the alloy was stirred and immediately poured into a mold. Did you breathe with what? And they died after all !!! That's why then tin was replaced!
      1. Riv
        Riv 25 September 2015 18: 51 New
        +3
        No, arsenic for copper is not an alloying element. For her, he is a harmful admixture. For bronze, arsenic in small quantities increases hardness, and if it is more than 2%, makes bronze brittle.

        The ancient blacksmith could not weigh and add arsenic to the alloy. With those technologies, it was impossible to isolate it in a free state. To do this, you need a retort. However, this was not necessary. Arsenic in nature accompanies both tin and copper. It is sometimes even more in ore and, when smelted, it goes into metal. Now it is completely removed during preliminary roasting of ore in tubular swords, and then part of it simply remained in the obtained metal.

        In the future, apparently, new ore deposits with a lower arsenic content (malachite, for example) were simply discovered. Well, the iron was on its way.
  7. timyr
    timyr 25 September 2015 13: 57 New
    0
    At that time there were several powers: Egypt, the Hittite Federation and Ahiyava. The Achaeans began the war with Troy, which was a tributary of the Hittites. But the Hittites weakened at that time. The main reason for the war is control over the straits. The Trojans controlled the number of ships with grain that came from the Black Sea.
  8. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 September 2015 14: 46 New
    0
    I liked the article. Photo --- beautiful! I wonder what kind of Gods the Cretans prayed to? What mythology did they have? Social structure?
    1. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 31 New
      +2
      If besides you they want others, I will write! Crete and Cyprus are my favorite subject. Alas, I was not in Crete, but Cyprus has traveled all over. Well, everything is still ahead ...
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 26 September 2015 05: 21 New
        0
        If besides you they want others, I will write! Crete and Cyprus are my favorite subject. Alas, I was not in Crete, but Cyprus has traveled all over. Well, everything is still ahead ...


        WRITE! I will wait! And about Seymynts with turbines too ...
  9. uzer 13
    uzer 13 25 September 2015 16: 58 New
    +6
    Short blades are a characteristic attribute of bronze weapons. This alloy itself is quite fragile. Long rapiers therefore have a cross-shaped cross-section. When you try to strike a chopping blow, they will break, so fencing (primitive, of course) does not go from a good life, here there is an attempt get the enemy from a safe distance. The same fully applies to iron swords. If you look at the images of the battles of the era of the ancient Slavs and Varangians, you will notice that their armor and weapons were almost the same, and the swords were short. It was impossible to make a long iron blade of acceptable weight, not knowing the technology of steel production.
    Well, you can still say about the Greek horses, they were not called a horse, but a hippo. Hence the names such as the hippo, Hippocrates.
    1. kalibr
      25 September 2015 18: 32 New
      0
      As for the horses, you rightly reminded the "players with words."
    2. Glot
      Glot 25 September 2015 19: 23 New
      0
      Well, you can also say about Greek horses, they were called not a horse, but a hippo


      That's right - hippo.
      And how I forgot that name ...))
    3. Aljavad
      Aljavad 26 September 2015 05: 23 New
      0
      hippo, hippocrates.


      ... (g / h) hippodrome.
  10. timyr
    timyr 25 September 2015 18: 30 New
    0
    One version of the causes of the war: the drought that hit the area of ​​Mycenae, Tiryns and other centers besides Athens. Also the drought hit the Hittites. There are letters where the Hittites ask the Egyptians for help with grain. Also most likely the invasion of the peoples of the sea is also caused by drought.
  11. RRR
    RRR 25 September 2015 19: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: Mikhail3
    And when the British opened Japan as a tin can with rotten meat, the samurai class was defeated very, very quickly. And not even firearms. The English officers wore swords and more even rapiers, they are easier, less burden. They had average, often very average, training of a fencer. And samurai for generations learned to wave a sword ...
    As a rule, an Englishman stabbed a samurai with the first attack, rarely the second, if he did not want to show off. Think about it - decades of training and a couple of months for an hour of classes per day.


    By style and pressure, a "connoisseur" of thousands of web pages of any crap is felt.

    Young man! You should at least ask for a start HOW samurai fought NOT from films and Internet delirium.

    Oddly enough, the samurai preferred the bow and only in close contact worked with the sword (s) and not only. But since human life was less valued in Japan than in Russia, few could have mastered the technique of working with a sword well — they had died before. However, everyone wanted to wave a sword in front of the enemy's face to show their greyhound.

    However, as well as most of you carrying knives, folding clubs and other crap

    Turn on your brains and think: where could a seluk from a poor Samkrainian family learn the art of fencing, if he did not have money, and the nearest master, who had a school and a dojo for a month, demanded up to the annual income of the family? Dad and mom gave you money for a beer and night club? RAVE!

    Yet again. Let’s say you went to the karate sect, damn-chtuda-kai, where 2 pelvis were thrown noodlesThat is the best style. When meeting with a barefoot at a supermarket, you tried to stand up and squeak menacingly - Kiai! In response to that, they received a simple straight line in the jaw and lay for 2 months in a hospital with a fragmented jaw. Then they abandoned the sect and bought a knife "for self-defense". And then they began to get involved in “survival with cool devices” and “tanks” for the soul.

    “What hasn’t happened before?”

    Children! 92% of you suffer from garbage desire to become stronger and more important than others, while you just need to be yourselfand not a brainless trickster - Ramba or the Terminator, destroying everything instead of creating.
    Kempo says - modesty is the main decoration of the master

    Speaking of Troy. If you read a lot about Schliemann, we will find the version that he told Troy in advance, preparing the way for the legalization of Semitic gold traded in Europe. Where did the Rothschilds and Rockefellers, etc., come from?
    1. kalibr
      25 September 2015 20: 37 New
      +4
      This is a conspiracy theological version! You can imagine how many ornaments it was necessary to make in a single style (also to invent this style!) To pick up metal, bury it all in different places, including where he didn’t dig, and bind everyone who dug it. How can all this really be done? No way! And you can think up hypotheses as much as you like. In my training manual for PR 20 students, conspiracy theories were given only the basic ones, so that they would know and not be led into it ... And all new ones appear. And now you want to give another one: Mycenaean rapier swords, where did they come from? And here - the 17 century musketeer fell into the "hole of time", got "there" and taught everyone how to make rapiers. And since I didn’t find the iron, it was made of bronze! And prove that this could not be ?! And what novel can you write ?! Shine! Where is Bushkov?
    2. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 25 September 2015 22: 15 New
      +2
      Quote: RRR
      Young man! You should at least ask for a start HOW samurai fought NOT from films and Internet delirium.

      Alas. Not as young as I would like ... How did the samurai fight? So they fought. Samurai bow look. Funny thing, right? Healthy deafness up to three meters in size, while not composite. Good for meditative exercise. For the battlefield, where you need to move (and to which you still have to go) and shoot quickly, this stake does not fit very well. Try making onions ... no, not that. This test will come out very shameful. Try to make at least something with your hands. At the end of the attempts, it will become clear to you that a bow, even as miserable as a Japanese stick, is wildly expensive, incredibly expensive. The sword is much cheaper, so bows could not be the main weapon in principle.
      "Selyuk from a poor samurai family" - famously said! The Samurai estate came from managers and various foremen there, work managers who plowed the courtiers and knew the former kingdom. First of all, these guys ... knew how to count money. Since this work is closest to the help manager. That is how they supplanted the court sharkuns, spying on how their third mistress pissed and sobbing beautifully over the dead dog for months. They ate money. Without beautiful fights ...
      Speaking of money. Some great teacher can demand for his lessons at least a moon from heaven ... only he will die from hunger at the same time. So there was no "annual income" rate. With whom to tear that kind of money? Emperor waiting in the dojo, or what? And for many years of training (you won’t believe), a teacher as such is not needed. Need to train. You can work with the base all your life, and everything will be something for you to learn, moreover from yourself, well, and from opponents, of course.
      Where, when and who taught me ... heh heh. It was all a long time ago and not true. You would rather read my comment more carefully than answering questions that I did not ask, and fending off arguments that I did not give.
      1. kalibr
        25 September 2015 22: 24 New
        0
        “It was all a long time ago and not true” - my favorite answer!
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 25 September 2015 22: 34 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          “It was all a long time ago and not true” - my favorite answer!

          And I also really like the old phrase (in my youth I found a place for her in almost any argument) - "it was the haste that killed the White Fish that ate the Sun!"
          1. kalibr
            26 September 2015 07: 44 New
            0
            I have a different one, it seems from the Count of Monte Cristo - "Haste is the property of the devil, only an unhurried end of the matter. Hasty will fall!"
      2. Riv
        Riv 26 September 2015 10: 41 New
        +1
        Is a sword cheaper than a bow? But the samurai did not even know that a piece of wood with a taut rope became more expensive ... Well, these Japanese people are wild people. By the way, yumis longer than 2.5 meters do not. And they are composite. Solid wood is the oldest, until about 900.
  12. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 September 2015 22: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    If besides you they want others, I will write! Crete and Cyprus are my favorite subject. Alas, I was not in Crete, but Cyprus has traveled all over. Well, everything is still ahead ...

    Dear Vyacheslav! Others will certainly want, only maybe not everyone will tell you about it, because in the bustle not everyone thinks about it. Regards.
  13. Stilet
    Stilet 26 September 2015 23: 39 New
    +1
    I saw similar swords in the images of Cretan warriors, and the type of sword is clearly interesting from bronze, in the form of a reverse sickle. This is the same era. If you look closely at the images of swords in the photo, then stiffening ribs are clearly visible. probably in profile the sword from the ribs of stiffness has a triangular shape with a clear thinning to the blade - a bronze age rapier.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 28 September 2015 09: 18 New
      0
      Correctly noticed about the stiffeners.
      And then there are so many comments, so many copies are broken, and no one saw it.
  14. Rubon
    Rubon 27 September 2015 01: 16 New
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    I stabbed him with sharp copper, having done a bad deed. "(C) Homer ...
  15. Turkir
    Turkir 30 September 2015 21: 29 New
    0
    More about armor can be found at http://kolizej.at.ua/forum/21-384-1
  16. Stilet
    Stilet 5 October 2015 21: 40 New
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    Another thing is interesting. Maybe I don’t know something, or the information is scarce .. repeat And what was used except for swords — what kind of axes did the Achaeans or Trojans have, maces or I'm afraid to pronounce this word — the keys were used or not. It seems to me that work would be enough for a mace or mint, considering that the Achaean helmets were more protective against piercing and cutting attacks, and not from impact-crushing fencing techniques, because felt padding on helmets was rather scarce, and there were only caps on the crown of felt. But this is probably a different story .... hi
  17. Ivan Ring
    Ivan Ring 18 October 2015 23: 23 New
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    A small clarification - Shlimen just started digging Mycenae. And he found the golden mask of Agamemnon.

    Regarding the long rapier swords - the topic is very interesting and controversial. Thanks to the author for the question raised.
  18. Molot1979
    Molot1979 6 March 2018 11: 11 New
    0
    However, it is illogical. On the one hand, “rapier-piercing swords,” on the other, “a chopping strike is intuitive and easier to learn.” It is doubtful that such a suggestive technique as cutting was unfamiliar to the rapier owners. Yes, and call these strips of metal rapiers - greatly exaggerated. IMHO, such swords could be cut. Why artificially impoverish technology?
    But! If the guess about the piercing technique is correct, then a number of conclusions about tactics can be drawn from here. For example, that the battle in the ranks in those days was not known (or simply was not practiced), because "rapiers" - a dubious weapon for the phalanx or similar dense construction. But the art of individual combat, on the contrary, was to be very developed, and fencing equipment - high and refined. Apparently, small detachments of professional warriors, tsarist warriors fought. Their kind was the High Middle Ages of the Bronze Age.