The origins and realities of the INF Treaty

54
The origins and realities of the INF Treaty


Recently, more and more questions have arisen regarding the operation of the Treaty between the USSR and the USA on the elimination of their medium and shorter range missiles (INF) from December December 8. Periodically, both in Russia and in the USA, statements are made about the possibility of getting out of it. Of course, first of all it concerns the sustainability of this agreement - does it correspond to the realities of today? To do this, remember the conditions for the deployment of the INF and history negotiations, as well as to assess modern threats.

POLITICAL ASPECTS OF DEPLOYMENT OF RSD

The decision to deploy medium-range missiles (RSD) in Europe refers to the days of the administration of US President Jimmy Carter. According to Henry Kissinger, “in fact, the arguments in favor of medium-range weapons were political, not strategic,” and stemmed from the very concern that had previously spawned a debate between NATO allies on strategy. "If the European allies of America really believed in its readiness to resort to nuclear retribution with the help of weaponslocated in the continental United States or sea-based, new missiles on European soil would not be needed. But America’s determination to do likewise was precisely called into question by European leaders. ”

The coming to power of President Jimmy Carter in 1977 intensified the contradictions between the White House administration and the West German partners.

The United States believed that, due to its specificity, Europe could not be the main theater of military operations with the use of nuclear weapons. Here, it was supposed to use neutron and precision weapons against the Soviet armed forces. In this regard, in the military-political circles of Germany, there were fears that the United States is seeking to "regionalize" the possibilities of nuclear war.

In his speech at the London Institute for Strategic Studies in October 1977, German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt insisted on maintaining political and military balance as a prerequisite for security and detente. He feared that the American allies would either "surrender" Western Europe, or turn it into a "battlefield." Bonn was afraid that Europe would become a “bargaining chip” in the Soviet-American confrontation. In essence, the position of G. Schmidt reflected the structural conflict that occurred in NATO during this period.

America tried to dispel European fears. It means that the question was whether Western Europe could count on US nuclear weapons in the event of a repulse of the Soviet attack, which has Europe as its goal.

There are other, more complex explanations. In particular, it was argued that, at first, the new weapon allegedly united the strategic defense of Europe with the strategic defense of the United States. It was argued that the Soviet Union would not launch an attack by superior conventional forces until medium-range missiles in Europe were destroyed, which, thanks to their close proximity and accuracy of hitting, could disrupt Soviet command posts and provide the US strategic forces with an all-destructive attack. hitting Thus, the RSD closed the gap in the "intimidation" system. In this case, the defense of Europe and the United States found themselves in a “bundle”: the Soviet Union would be deprived of the opportunity to attack any of these territories without incurring the risk of an unacceptable universal nuclear war.

It is necessary to take into account the fact that such a “bundle” was the answer, as G. Kissinger believes, and to the growing fears of German neutralism throughout Europe, especially in France. After the defeat of the German Chancellor G. Schmidt in 1982, European circles began to fear the return of the German Social Democratic Party to the positions of nationalism and neutralism. In the framework of the open discussion in the FRG regarding the US strategy, the well-known SPD politician Egon Bar wrote that morality and ethics are more important than Atlantic solidarity and agreement with the new American strategy will complicate the prospects for the unification of two German states. French President Francois Mitterrand in 1983, made a zealous advocate of the US plan for the deployment of medium-range missiles. Speaking in the German Bundestag, he said: "Anyone who plays to the separation of the European continent from the Americas can, in our opinion, destroy the balance of power and, therefore, prevent the preservation of the world."

In May, 1978, when, according to NATO estimates, the Soviet Union deployed the first 50 mid-range missile complexes SS-20 (RSN-10 Pioneer), the CPSU General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev visited Bonn. The meeting with the German Chancellor G. Schmidt was reduced to discussing the problem of "Euroracket". Brezhnev rejected the accusations of Schmidt that the Soviet Union is seeking unilateral superiority in the military field. The famous Soviet diplomat Julius Kvitsinsky (USSR Ambassador to Germany in 1981 – 1986) explained German policy by saying that the West German leadership was in a hurry with the idea of ​​uniting the country. In his opinion, West German diplomacy sought “to achieve from the USSR truly substantial and one-sided reductions in its nuclear potential, with all the political and psychological consequences of this for the situation in Europe. West Germany was in a hurry. She feared that it would be virtually impossible to restore the unity of Germany in 30 – 50 years. ”

From the point of view of G. Kissinger, expressed in his monograph “Diplomacy”, L.I. Brezhnev and his successor Yu.V. Andropov used to oppose the deployment of medium-range missiles in Europe to weaken Germany’s connection with NATO. He writes that when Helmut Kohl visited the Kremlin in July 1983, Yuri Andropov warned the German chancellor that if he agreed to the deployment of Pershigov-2, “the military threat to West Germany will increase many times, the relations between our two countries will also undergo serious complications. " “As for the Germans in the Federal Germany and the German Democratic Republic, they will have, as recently said by someone (in Pravda), to look through a dense paling of rockets,” Andropov noted.

MILITARY POINT OF VIEW

On the other hand, from a military point of view, the deployment of mid-range US missiles was part of the strategy of "flexible response" and gave Washington the opportunity to choose intermediate variants of a universal war aimed at America. In the middle of the 1970-ies, first in the USA and then in the USSR, systems of laser, infrared and television guidance of missiles at the target were created. This made it possible to achieve great accuracy in hitting the target (up to 30 meters). Experts talked about the possibility of inflicting a decapitating or "blinding" nuclear strike, which would allow the elite of the opposite side to be destroyed before a decision was made on a retaliatory strike. This led to the idea of ​​the possibility of winning the "limited nuclear war" due to the gain in flight time. US Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger announced on August 17 the concept of a decapitation (aka counter-elite) strike with the new US nuclear policy framework. The emphasis in the means of containment shifted to the means of medium and shorter range. In 1973, this approach was enshrined in key US nuclear strategy documents.

In order to implement the doctrine, the United States began to modify the Forward Based System located in Western Europe. As part of this plan, the US-British interaction on ballistic missiles on submarines and medium-range missiles has increased. In 1974, Britain and France signed the Ottawa Declaration, under which they pledged to develop a common defense system, including the nuclear field.

In 1976, Dmitry Ustinov became the USSR Defense Minister, who was leaning toward a tough response to the US actions to implement the "flexible response" strategy. To this end, the USSR began to build up an ICBM with an ICGM and at the same time carry out a cover of the “European-strategic” direction. In the USSR 1977, under the pretext of modifying the outdated RSD-4 and RSD-5 complexes, it began to deploy Pioneer on the western borders of the RSD-10, each of which was equipped with three individual-targeting warheads. This allowed the USSR to destroy NATO’s military infrastructure in Western Europe — control centers, command posts, and especially ports — in a matter of minutes (the latter made it impossible to land American troops in Western Europe in the event of war).

NATO APPROACHES

In the NATO countries there was no single approach to assessing the deployment of new Soviet missiles. At a meeting with the three leaders of Western Europe - Helmut Schmidt, Valerie Giscard d'Estaing and James Callaghan - in Guadalupe in 1979, Jimmy Carter promised to deploy American missiles in Europe. However, this was not enough for the leaders of Germany and Great Britain. They also insisted on a policy of mutual reduction of missiles in Europe. At the same time, the question of the effectiveness of NATO in countering the “Soviet threat” was put in strict form before the American president.

Thus, the policy of a “dual solution” (dual-track), adopted by NATO at the Council session in Brussels 12 December 1979, was achieved. The NATO decision provided for the deployment of American Pershing-572 and cruise missiles (2 and 108, respectively) in European countries of 464 in parallel with the initiation of negotiations with the USSR on restoring military-political balance. The short flight time of the Pershing-2 missiles (8 – 10 minutes) gave the United States the opportunity to deliver the first strike at command posts and launchers of Soviet ICBMs.

Negotiations within the “double solution” policy have failed. Until November 1981, negotiations on “Euro-missiles” were not started.

ZERO OPTION

In November, 1980 of the year in the US presidential election was won by Republican Ronald Reagan, who followed a tougher approach. American political scientist Bradford Burns stated that “President R. Reagan pursued the US foreign policy, based on the conviction that the global power of the United States must be absolute in the last decade of the 20th century. The main thing in this conviction is the need and the ability to impose its will on the whole world. ”

In 1981, the Reagan administration proposed a “zero option” unacceptable for the Soviet side - the US does not deploy medium-range and cruise missiles in Europe, and the USSR eliminates its RSM-10 “Pioneer” missiles. Naturally, the USSR refused it. Firstly, there were no American missiles in Europe, and the Soviet leadership considered the "liquidation of the Pioneers" to be an unequal exchange. Secondly, the American approach did not take into account the RSD of Great Britain and France. In response, Brezhnev put forward an “absolute zero” program in 1981: the withdrawal of the RSD-10 should be accompanied not only by the US refusing to deploy the Pershing-2 RSD, but also by withdrawing tactical nuclear weapons from Europe, as well as eliminating the American advanced-based system. In addition, the British and French RSD were to be eliminated. The United States did not accept these proposals, citing the superiority of the USSR (the Warsaw Pact) in conventional armed forces.

In 1982, the Soviet position was corrected. The USSR declared a temporary moratorium on the deployment of the RSD-10 "Pioneer" before signing a comprehensive agreement. In addition, in 1982, it was proposed to reduce the number of Pioneer RSD-10 to a similar number of French and British RSD. But this position did not cause understanding among the NATO countries. France and Britain declared their nuclear arsenals "independent" and declared that the problem of locating American RSD in Western Europe is primarily a question of Soviet-American relations.

PACKAGE LOCKING


The US attempt to establish a “missile fence” in Europe was successfully foiled by Moscow. Photo from www.defenseimagery.mil

The situation changed in March 1983, when the Reagan administration announced the launch of the Strategic Defense Initiative (SOI) program. The PIO envisaged the creation of a full-scale space-based missile defense system that could intercept the Soviet ICBMs in the upper stage of the flight trajectory. The analysis showed that a bundle of "Euro-rockets - SOI" poses a threat to the security of the USSR: first, the enemy will deal a decapitating strike with "Euro missiles", then counter-force using ICBMs with a MILV and then later intercept a weakened strike of strategic nuclear forces. Therefore, in August 1983 of the year, Yuri Andropov, who came to power on 10 on November 1982 of the year, stated that negotiations on RSD will be conducted only in package with negotiations on space weapons (ITN). At the same time, the USSR assumed unilateral obligations not to test anti-satellite weapons. These events are called "packet blocking".

But the USA did not agree to conduct “package” negotiations. In September, 1983, they began to deploy their missiles in the UK, Italy, Belgium. November 22 1983, the German Bundestag voted to deploy Pershing-2 missiles in the Federal Republic of Germany. This was negatively perceived in the USSR. 24 November 1983, Yuri Andropov made a special statement, which spoke about the growing danger of a nuclear war in Europe, the withdrawal of the USSR from the Geneva talks on “Euro missiles” and the adoption of retaliatory measures — the deployment of the Oka operational tactical missiles (OTP-23) in GDR and Czechoslovakia. Having a range of up to 400 km, they could practically sweep the entire territory of Germany, causing a preventive disarming strike at the locations of Pershing. At the same time, the USSR sent its nuclear-powered ballistic-missile submarines close to the US coast for combat patrols.

UNLOCKING THE PACKAGE

Attempts to resume contacts began after the death of Yuri Andropov. At his funeral for 14 February, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and US Vice President George W. Bush attended. They offered to resume negotiations on "Euro-missiles", provided that the USSR "unlocks the package." Moscow agreed to resume negotiations only on “package” terms. 1984 June 29 of the USSR in a special note proposed to resume negotiations. However, the United States rejected these proposals. As the Soviet Union continued to deploy the OTP-1984 in Czechoslovakia and the GDR, the United States announced in the summer of 23 about the deployment of Lance tactical missiles with neutron warheads.

Promotion was achieved on February 7 1985. At a meeting in Geneva, the USSR Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko and the US Secretary of State George Schulz agreed that the negotiations on "Euroracket" would be held separately from the negotiations on space weapons.

Negotiations resumed after Mikhail Gorbachev was elected General Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU 10 in March 1985. The USSR and the United States began to discuss the terms of the negotiations. America did not achieve great success in the field of SDI research, since it was difficult to create an effective missile defense system at that level of development of science and technology. But the Soviet leadership feared the unpredictable consequences of an arms race in space. According to Zbigniew Brzezinski, “the SDI project reflected the timely awareness of the fact that the dynamics of technological development changes the ratio between offensive and defensive weapons, and the perimeter of the national security system moves into outer space. The PIO, however, concentrated mainly on one single threat coming from the Soviet Union. With the disappearance of the threat, the project itself lost its meaning. ”

By this time, the position of the USSR in the negotiations has changed. In the summer of 1985, Moscow imposed a moratorium on the deployment of OTP-23 in Czechoslovakia and the GDR. Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan attempted to reach an agreement at the negotiations in Geneva in November 1985. It ended in failure: the US refused to withdraw the RSD from Europe, and the USSR was close to re-blocking the package. But after Gorbachev announced in January 1986 a program for the phased elimination of nuclear weapons throughout the world, the USSR made a number of serious concessions. At a meeting in Reykjavik 10 – 12 in October 1986, Mikhail Gorbachev proposed a large-scale reduction of nuclear weapons, but only “in package” with the United States abandoning the PIO. Since it was not possible to agree on a common nuclear missile disarmament, the parties decided to start with the most acute problem - medium-range missiles in Europe. The USSR agreed to "unblock the package" - to negotiate RSD separately from the PIO.

DOUBLE ZERO

In the autumn of 1986, Moscow proposed a variant for the withdrawal of the RSD: the USSR retracts the Pioneer missiles outside the Urals, while the US exports the Pershing-2 and ground-based cruise missiles to North America. Washington agreed to accept this option. However, December 24 1986 of the year against him in a categorical form, Japan. In Tokyo, they feared that the USSR would re-target the RSD-10 Pioneer to Japan. 1 January 1987 was opposed by the People's Republic of China, where they also feared that the Pioneer RSM-10 would be redirected to Chinese facilities.

As a result, in February 1987, the USSR proposed a new conceptual “double zero” approach. However, 13 – 14 on April 1987 of the year US Secretary of State J. Schulz, who flew to Moscow, demanded that the short-range missiles — the Oka operational tactical missiles (OTP-23) - be added to the agreement.

The Oka complex, based on the technical solutions adopted and their execution, was unique and had no analogues in the world. The Oka missile was never tested for a distance over 400 km and, in accordance with this accepted criterion, should not have been ranked among the limited. Despite this, Schulz expressed outrage at the fact that the USSR was trying to “push” dangerous weapons, citing a somewhat smaller radius of its operation. The Americans threatened that in response to the refusal of the USSR to dismantle the Oka, they would upgrade the Lance missile and deploy it in Europe, which would be a rejection of nuclear disarmament. Marshal of the Soviet Union Sergey Akhromeev was against the concession on the Oka rocket. It should also be noted that the liquidation of the Oka station in the working bodies (the so-called “small and big fives”), in which they prepared draft directives for negotiations, did not go through the approval procedure. These working bodies included, respectively, senior officials and the leadership of the Central Committee of the CPSU, the Military Industrial Commission, the Ministry of Defense, the KGB and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Final agreement was reached at negotiations with the participation of Eduard Shevardnadze in Washington in September 1987. The USSR agreed to develop a unified classification for INF and to include the OTR OTR in the future contract, although they did not fall under the definition of an INF. The United States, in turn, promised to destroy Tomahawk’s ground-based cruise missiles and abandon the deployment of Lance-2 neutron warheads in Central Europe.

December 8 The Washington Treaty was signed by the terms of which the parties agreed to destroy medium (from 1987 to 1000 km) and shorter (from 5500 to 500 km) range as a class of nuclear missiles under the control of their inspectors. The INF Treaty provides for not to produce, not to test and not to deploy such missiles. It can be said that with the achievement of an agreement on the destruction of the “Euroracket”, “nuclear eurostrakhi” also disappeared. He was the forerunner of the Treaty between the USSR and the USA on the reduction and limitation of strategic offensive arms (START-1000).

MODERN THREATS AND CHALLENGES OF RUSSIA

The national security dilemmas of the first decades of the 21st century, naturally, are qualitatively different from those of the 20th century. At the same time, the traditionally accepted strategic views, of course, remain fundamental to security. Moreover, since the leading world states continue to improve and develop new types of weapons, maintaining technological superiority or parity between them remains an important imperative of their national security and foreign policy.

According to Z. Brzezinski, which he outlined in his book Choice: World Domination or Global Leadership, “number one in the list of threats to international security — a full-scale strategic war — still represents a danger of a higher order, although it is no longer the most likely prospect . In the coming years, one of the main tasks of the American political leadership in the field of security will remain maintaining the stability of the nuclear deterrence of the United States and Russia ...

At the same time, it should be expected that the revolution led by the United States and due to scientific and technological progress in military affairs will bring to the fore various means of warfare below the nuclear threshold and, more generally, will contribute to the devaluation of the central role of nuclear weapons in modern conflict . It is likely that the United States will produce - if necessary, and unilaterally, a significant reduction in its nuclear potential, while simultaneously deploying one or another variant of an anti-missile defense system. "

This approach is currently being implemented by the United States in a “fast global strike” strategy, which involves delivering a destructive disarming strike with offensive, high-precision modern conventional weapons in the shortest possible time at targets anywhere in the world, combined with a reflection of a possible counter-attack by “impenetrable” global missile defense systems. Thus, the United States, while lowering the nuclear threshold, is at the same time projecting military force onto the entire globe, thus achieving global military dominance. This is facilitated by the presence of powerful naval forces controlling the space of the oceans, as well as the presence of more than 700 US military bases in 130 countries. Thus, the possession of America at the moment incomparable with other countries of the scale of geopolitical superiority gives it the opportunity for decisive intervention.

As for European security, politically, after the disappearance of the Soviet threat and the transition of Central Europe to the West, preserving NATO as a defensive alliance against an already non-existent threat does not seem to make any sense. However, based on the views of Brzezinski, “the European Union and NATO have no choice: in order not to lose the laurels acquired in the Cold War, they are forced to expand, even if with the entry of each new member, the political cohesion of the European Union is disturbed and the military-operational cooperation within the Atlantic organization is complicated .

In the longer term, the expansion of Europe will remain the single main task, which would be most facilitated by the political and geographical complementarity of the EU and NATO structures. Expansion is the best guarantee of such steady changes in the European security landscape, which will expand the perimeter of the central zone of the world on the planet, facilitate the absorption of Russia by the expanding West and involve Europe in joint efforts with America in the name of strengthening global security. ”

Here they have the right to ask the question, which Russia is Brzezinski talking about? About that, apparently, Yeltsin's Russia, which, according to him, after the end of the cold war, was “relegated to an average power”. But Russia can hardly exist in such a status, since it has historically developed and developed as a great world power.

In relation to the weak link that facilitates the takeover of Russia, the outstanding Russian thinker Ivan Ilyin wrote in the article “On the Disbandors of Russia”: “some believe that the first victim will be a politically and strategically impotent Ukraine, which will be easily occupied and annexed from the West at a favorable moment; and the Caucasus will quickly ripen for conquest. ”

Henry Kissinger’s views on the approaches of some Western politicians to the question of possible ways of Russia's integration into the Western community are curious. In particular, Russia's entry into NATO and possible membership in the European Union as a counterweight to the United States and Germany. “None of these courses is appropriate ... Russia's membership in NATO will turn the Atlantic Alliance into a mini-UN security tool or, on the contrary, into an anti-Asian — especially anti-Chinese — alliance of Western industrial democracies. Russian membership in the European Union, on the other hand, would divide the two shores of the Atlantic. Such a move would inevitably push Europe, in its search for self-identification, to further alienate the United States and force Washington to pursue a corresponding policy in the rest of the world. ”

At present, thanks to the aggressive US foreign policy and the efforts of the NATO countries, led by Washington, which provoked the “Ukrainian crisis,” Europe once again became the “field” of the heightened opposition between Russia and the West.

The degree of confrontation between the two nuclear powers increased significantly. The approach of NATO forces to the borders of Russia and the deployment of NATO and US bases, including global strategic missile defense systems, in Eastern European countries has disturbed the balance in the coordinate system of international security. Moreover, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, for the first time, potential adversaries of Russia gained an advantage in conventional armed forces on the European continent. Once again on the security agenda, the question arises about the flight time of offensive weapons, allowing them to deal a decapitating strike. This problem may become critical in the event of a technological breakthrough in the field of creating hypersonic weapons delivery systems, which, according to expert estimates, may occur in the next 10 years. The NATO enlargement process shows that the presence of strategic nuclear forces in Russia, based on the paradigm of modern development, in the future will be increasingly difficult to turn into political advantages.

The Ukrainian crisis has, on the whole, exposed a serious problem in relations between Russia and the West in connection with the strategy of the global security system promoted by the USA and Europe, based on the idea of ​​an expanding West (EU and NATO). Reflecting on the coming Russia, Ivan Ilyin in the publication “Against Russia” writes: “M.V. Lomonosov and A.S. Pushkin was the first to understand the originality of Russia, its peculiarity from Europe, its “non-European character”. F.M. Dostoevsky and N.Ya. Danilevsky was the first to understand that Europe does not know us, does not understand and does not like us. Many years have passed since then, and we must test for ourselves and confirm that all the great Russian people were perspicacious and right. ”
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  1. +23
    20 September 2015 06: 27
    The author rather gently circumvented the role of two traitors under this agreement - Gorbachev and Shevardnadze ... request
    1. +8
      20 September 2015 08: 30
      Quote: afdjhbn67
      The author rather gently circumvented the role of two traitors under this agreement - Gorbachev and Shevardnadze ... request

      There is no point in talking about these two jackals. Everyone who served in those years remembers what was done then. And the INF Treaty was needed in my opinion. It is not for nothing that the mattresses are now itching to stick Euro PRO. There, the missiles are very controversial. When replacing a warhead with a nuclear one, they can act as a means of first strike. And imagine that in the days of this filthy fucking "Pioneers" regiments would have been put under the knife without hesitation. And what would have happened then? Perhaps the blow would have been delivered. Even in those years, we left on the backlog of the USSR.
      1. +4
        20 September 2015 09: 21
        in 1979, Jimmy Carter promised to deploy American missiles in Europe.

        Quote: Mitek
        And the INF Treaty was needed in my opinion. Not for nothing that mattresses are now scratching their Euro PRO stick.

        ... it all started with this - "in 1979, Jimmy Carter promised to deploy American missiles in Europe" ...
        Has the USSR "swallowed" the introduction of strategic RSM into Europop?
        At one time, due to similar events, the "Caribbean crisis" broke out. The result was a mutual "cleaning" of RSD from Cuba and from Europe (Turkey, Italy, England).
        I believe that the bureaucrats of the Politburo at that time gave a flop, letting the Yankees return to the geyropa again without adequate security ...
        It is clear that it was impossible to repeat the early trick with Cuba, since completely spoiled the relationship with Fidel, but the "softness" then led to the collapse of the country in the future.
        It was necessary to work harder ...
        1. +1
          21 September 2015 14: 47
          This is due to the War in Afghanistan. The storming of President Amin's palace thwarted the SALT II agreement, which led to the end of "detente" and an increase in world tension. "Euro missiles" - just the result
      2. +1
        21 September 2015 08: 22
        The flight time of the Pershing was 6 minutes ...
        Gorby is kind of like that. Although the flight time of the Voevoda with a flat trajectory against targets in the FSA was 12 minutes.
        And now, with the advent of two macaques with a nuclear grenade - Israel and Pakistan, despite the fact that the first has full-fledged delivery vehicles, even with RGCh, and the second will soon have to do INF.
        And place bases with Triumphs in Egypt and India
    2. +1
      21 September 2015 04: 03
      The author rather gently circumvented the role of two traitors under this agreement - Gorbachev and Shevardnadze ...

      The Oka complex, according to the adopted technical solutions and their implementation, was unique and had no analogues in the world. The Oka missile was never tested at a range of over 400 km and, in accordance with this accepted criterion, should not be among the restricted ones.


      These creatures put the labor of hundreds of thousands of people (scientists, designers, workers) under pressure. At that time Oka was quoted in the same way as Iskander today ...
  2. +2
    20 September 2015 06: 47
    No USSR no contract! The United States and they say the agreement on the expansion of NATO was the USSR no USSR no agreement in the trash of it!
    1. +7
      20 September 2015 07: 40
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      No USSR no contract! The United States and they say the agreement on the expansion of NATO was the USSR no USSR no agreement in the trash of it!


      Russia is the assignee of obligations under the treaties of the USSR so alas and ah
      1. +2
        20 September 2015 10: 13
        Source: http://www.un.org/en/documents/decl_conv/conventions/pdf/treaty.pdf

        It is very easy to withdraw from the Agreement. You just need to decide what is more important for the "higher interests" of the country
      2. 0
        20 September 2015 17: 15
        Yes bullshit is yours ah. Then Crimea cannot be rewritten wink
    2. +1
      20 September 2015 09: 37
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      No USSR no contract! The United States and they say the agreement on the expansion of NATO was the USSR no USSR no agreement in the trash of it!

      During a dispute over the expansion of "NATO" on the air of a TV show, a representative of "NATO" blurted out that this treaty is a myth.
  3. +5
    20 September 2015 07: 14
    America has not achieved much success in the study of SOI,


    This merikatny chimera, called SOI, cost us very dearly!
    We still disentangle what a spotted ice ax did to him in the crown!
    1. +1
      20 September 2015 07: 38
      Late already. Now you need to think how to get out of the situation? There was probably nothing left for Oka and Pioneer. Yes, and new developments in this class certainly were not conducted.
      1. +10
        20 September 2015 08: 29
        Quote: Amurets
        There was probably nothing left for Oka and Pioneer. Yes, and new developments in this class certainly were not conducted.

        The developers of Iskander-K and Rubezh read your comment with surprise winked
        1. 0
          21 September 2015 21: 21
          The developers of Iskander-K and Rubezh read your comment with surprise

          Iskander-K is completely different, there is a cruise missile, not a ballistic one. But the usual Iskander is quite a successor to Oka, they were made by the same people (Oleg Mamalyga).
    2. 0
      20 September 2015 21: 42
      Quote: aszzz888
      America has not achieved much success in the study of SOI,


      This merikatny chimera, called SOI, cost us very dearly!
      We still disentangle what a spotted ice ax did to him in the crown!

      Just SDI spurred research and practical measures to counter missile defense. Now the survivability of our missiles is significantly higher than 30 years ago.
      The question is different: we have practically no means of countering NATO forces in Europe in the places of concentration. "Strategists" are still intended for the United States, we have practically no corresponding sea-based missiles, only the Tu-22MZ remain - but there are very few of them. But the Americans can bring up ships with sea-based missiles, and use large quantities of aviation with the CD. And we no longer have tens of thousands of tanks, as it was in the 80s, in the center of Europe. And we just have to use strategists.
  4. +5
    20 September 2015 08: 21
    The agreement has lost its potential, it is disadvantageous for Russia, NATO has come close to our borders, the military balance of the neighboring side has intensified. Withdrawal from the agreement has matured, let it be said that they want the country's security more important.
    1. +5
      20 September 2015 08: 45
      The logic is simple:
      leaving the RMND will give Russia the opportunity to strike at US bases in the EU and European allies.
      leaving the RMND will give the United States an advantage in the first strike, covering the entire European part with missiles that will at least seriously thin and distract the air defense / missile defense to strike the strategic nuclear forces.

      That is, Russia can shoot at US allies, which, in fact, do not mind.
      The United States can shoot directly at Russia, in addition to thousands of Kyrgyzstan from naval carriers.
      1. +3
        20 September 2015 09: 59
        Quote: donavi49
        The logic is simple:



        You got a little lost in your own logic ...

        The USA is now ready to strike at us ...
        But, if we waste the money of the nuclear triad on Europe, we will be left without pants in front of the nuclear triads of the same USA, Naglia, France, not to mention China ... and US friends - Israel ... Pakistan ...

        But when we withdraw from the treaty, and Europe finally realizes that it can be instantly covered by our means of INF, it is IT, and not the states, that will think ... And about the deployment of the state’s missile defense on its territory too ...

        PS And Europeans do not mind the staff ... They also have a goal - to fight with Russia on European territory ...
        1. 0
          20 September 2015 10: 38
          Well look. States essentially need:
          - the Baltic states, they will agree to everything
          - Poland, also sell easily
          - romania, bulgaria, they will sell, the Bulgarians won the transit through the call
          - like a cherry Ukraine, in order to further reduce the target and expand the list of goals, it’s clear

          Old Europe is not really needed, but there too many will agree.

          Carriers? It is quite difficult, because the United States:
          - there are only 100-150 canned and disassembled GLCM installations, there are rockets for them for standard axes of the latest modification
          - The pioneers have disassembled thoroughly and will have to create virtually anew. That is, up to the ballistic missile SD - years 7-10.

          However, they can build up CR very quickly - because the missiles are on the conveyor, and the installations are quite simple.

          Russia:
          - There is Iskander-M, but it is more of a thunderstorm precisely in Eastern and Central Europe, according to the declared range.
          - Iskander-K.
          - A new complex of diabetes, about which the Americans are crazy.


          It is hoped that Europe will understand something and begin to change, it is simply stupid.
          1. 0
            20 September 2015 12: 55
            And we still have developments on the Velocity medium-range missile system with a flight range of 4000 kilometers, and in 2016 we will adopt the Rubezh missile system, which can be converted into a medium-range missile with nuclear warheads.
        2. 0
          21 September 2015 04: 10
          PS And Europeans do not mind the staff ... They have a goal - fight with Russia on European territory ...


          They have only one goal - to fight with Russia by strangers, remaining outside observers overseas. They sleep and see the 3rd world, in this scenario ...
      2. 0
        20 September 2015 21: 47
        Quote: donavi49
        Russia can shoot at US allies, which, in fact, do not mind.
        The United States can shoot directly at Russia, in addition to thousands of Kyrgyzstan from naval carriers.

        They still have a bunch of aviation from the Kyrgyz Republic - do not forget about it.
        And it is only necessary to withdraw from the treaty when the corresponding missile systems are ALREADY created, that is, in fact much LATER than the actual breach of the treaty.
        And so - we’ll leave today, and the means of attack, similar to the US KR sea and air based will be created in five to seven years. And during this time, the Americans will not stand still.
  5. +1
    20 September 2015 08: 56
    The INF Treaty is outdated and does not correspond to the realities of today. It did not match before at the time of signing. According to the terms of the Agreement, any party may withdraw from it by simple notification 6 months before withdrawal. Just like the United States withdrew from the ABM Treaty. Any self-respecting country must ensure its security. And the INF Treaty is a direct threat to the security of the Russian Federation. Not only are the French and British nuclear forces not taken into account, so in Europe nuclear stockpiles in the form of B61 bombs are now stockpiled. The INF Treaty was also supposed to eliminate the US BASED FORMATION system. Now, due to the expansion of NATO to the East, it does not meet the interests of the Russian Federation at all. Why hold on to a disadvantageous agreement if you can just get out of it.

    A direct violation of the Treaty is the entry of American ships into the Black Sea. I am surprised that the author passed over this moment in silence. There are 26 Tomahawk cruise missiles on missile cruisers such as Ticonderoga (which constantly hang around in the Black Sea). They definitely fall within the scope of this agreement.

    At one time, the Caribbean crisis began with the deployment of Jupiter missiles in Turkey. The entry of American ships such as Ticonderoga and Arly Burke into the Black Sea violates the INF Treaty. And I am surprised that so far I have never heard protests from the Russian side on such a clear violation.
    1. 0
      21 September 2015 06: 00
      Quote: Bakht
      They definitely fall within the scope of this agreement.

      Do not fall. The contract deals only with ground-based launchers
  6. 0
    20 September 2015 09: 29
    The Iskander complex has a large modernization potential in range, you need to squeeze everything out of it and this will solve half the problems. We will assign the other part to aviation from its KR, to Tu 22 in the Crimea and from the north. And violating the contract fully is not profitable for us ourselves.
    1. +1
      20 September 2015 10: 05
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And violating the contract fully is not profitable for us ourselves.


      Is that so ???

      Figuratively speaking, these overseas intriguers have ushered and stripped thanks to the treacherous leadership of the country ... And again we will say that it’s impossible, it is impossible .... international laws ...

      Take a look around how international law and safety are respected ...
      And read in the article the goal of the United States: Unconditional dictatorship throughout the world ...
      Yes, this is their long-known desire ...

      We need INF, and urgently !!!
      Until Europe feels the mortal danger under which the USA is bringing it, it will not rebel against them ...

      PS Notice, even Henry Kissinger talks about the possibility of an alliance of a NEW Europe against the USA ...
  7. 0
    20 September 2015 09: 38
    The agreement formally exists, but in fact it is outdated and does not correspond to the events that occurred in Europe and in the world. To circumvent the terms of the agreement, it is enough to have military bases located around the perimeter of Russia and a large number of attack drones. Nowadays, the INF Treaty is remembered only for a reason to try bargain for yourself any concessions on the part of Russia, all of a sudden let it ride for free.
  8. +2
    20 September 2015 09: 50
    Quote: Mitek
    And the INF Treaty was needed in my opinion.

    The treaty was essentially moronic! The USSR and Russia are opposed not purely by the United States, but by the ENTIRE NATO BLOCK, which expands every year. And the European NATO members are not spelled out in the treaty, and their nuclear forces are "independent." - even more. And about the destruction of our missiles - Russia has a long border, various threats - they would send - beyond the Urals, to the Far East - they would be on duty "against" China and Japan. Follow the lead of the United States, do not break it! negative hi
  9. +4
    20 September 2015 10: 26
    The article is certainly interesting, but far from so unambiguous. Alas, everyone then pulled a blanket over himself, trying to get benefits. The USSR made a bet that the deployment of new complexes would be perceived as a normal modernization, but alas, this did not happen.

    Then, some decisions of the USSR from the heights of modern knowledge are also sometimes perceived inadequate. As well as an established look at the origins of the Caribbean crisis. But in the general article, plus

    Quote: Bakht
    The INF Treaty is outdated and does not correspond to the realities of today.

    Yes, it is outdated, but it does not correspond to the realities of today's day, because when this treaty was created there were almost three countries with sufficient potential for medium-range missiles in the world — the USSR, the USA, and China. 18 medium-range missiles in France did not make the weather.

    Quote: Bakht
    It did not match before at the time of signing.

    Most of the time it was. We have removed the threat of US Pershing II ballistic missiles. We then not only could not intercept them, but there were also problems with detection, which at that time had not yet been resolved (at the time of signing the contract)

    Quote: Bakht
    According to the terms of the Agreement, any party may withdraw from it by simple notification 6 months before withdrawal. Just like the United States withdrew from the ABM Treaty. Any self-respecting country must ensure its security. And the INF Treaty is a direct threat to the security of the Russian Federation. Not only are the French and British nuclear forces not taken into account, so in Europe nuclear stockpiles in the form of B61 bombs are now stockpiled.

    Excuse me, Bakhtiyar? (Did I read your name correctly?), but you mixed everything in one bottle.
    Let's deal.

    Indeed, according to Article XV Clause 2 each of the parties, having notified the other for 6 months, may withdraw from the contract. The question is how much the withdrawal from the agreement currently corresponds to INTERESTS Of Russia. Her safety.

    So, withdrawal from the agreement at present does not correspond to the interests of Russia. The ballistic missile regiments of other countries, potential adversaries, and allies, except China, do not particularly threaten Russia. Pakistani missiles can touch only part of our territory in Altai, while Indian missiles can be a little more, but not by much. Chinese - yes, this is a problem, as, in principle, Iranian, North Korean and Israeli. But if you take these countries apart, then:

    a) China is now in our friends, it can be temporarily not considered
    b) India and Pakistan - even taking into account the fact that both countries participate in international Asian unions, in any case they see their nuclear missile forces as an instrument for solving their bilateral problems.
    c) The same thing with the DPRK, Iran, Israel. The DPRK’s goals are in a slightly different direction; the Iran-Israel’s goals are more likely goals against each other.

    That is, there are currently no countries with a direct infantry conflict threatening Russia directly (not indirectly). What happens, we get out of the Agreement.

    If in the 80s, missiles were based in Italy, Great Britain, Germany (winged) and only in Germany - ballistic, with a flight time of 6-7 minutes, now such complexes can be deployed in the Baltic states, Romania. And this is a completely different flight time. Of course, declaring for example today, September 20, that Russia is withdrawing from the INF Treaty, we will not receive rockets at our doorstep in April 2016, but a little later, it will be necessary. And their striking difference will be that the flight time will be reduced by half. Is it profitable for us? I'm afraid not.
    1. +1
      20 September 2015 10: 51
      Nice to read normal criticism.

      But ... I didn’t mix anything. The US’s unilateral withdrawal from the ABM treaty and the presence of Tomahawks in the Black Sea (the range of the marine option is up to 1500 km. Sometimes they write 2500 km. Probably depends on the modifications) makes the INF Treaty a simple fiction. But it allows opponents to blame the Russian Federation for violating the Treaty. Which is more or less true. The fact that they themselves violate the Agreement is not advertised. So the withdrawal from the Treaty, which currently does not correspond to the interests of the Russian Federation (like you yourself admit it) has already matured. What is the point of the Russian Federation to abide by a treaty that directly affects the vital interests of the Russian Federation?

      The solution could be as simple as during the Caribbean crisis. No NATO ships have the right to enter the Black Sea if they are armed (or may be armed) with weapons covered by the Treaty. Dismantling the missile defense system in Europe. And as a response, remove Russian missiles from the Crimea and Kaliningrad.

      The last paragraph from the field of unscientific fiction. The States will never agree to these conditions. So the withdrawal of the Russian Federation from the Treaty is ABSOLUTELY beneficial to Russia. Being in this agreement calls into question the security of the Russian Federation.

      There is one more point on which attention is not focused. This is an increase in the level of an unprovoked nuclear war. Reduced flight time. When an accidental launch from Arly Burke or Ticonderoga will be perceived as direct aggression. Since the reaction time is rapidly decreasing, decision-making will have to be moved to a lower level.

      You just admit the fact that the American Tomahawks are already at the borders of the Russian Federation. Missile cruisers are in the Black Sea almost on an ongoing basis. And this is from 26 to 32 missiles on one ship.
  10. 0
    20 September 2015 10: 31
    Quote: Bakht
    Not only that French and English nuclear forces are not taken into account

    But they were not taken into account even then. The Soviet proposals to take them into account was initially a failure. Countries have their own nuclear forces and medium-range weapons. And then, we started consultations and negotiations with one side, and then decided to fasten our US allies as well. And such numbers often do not work.

    Quote: Bakht
    ... and in Europe nuclear stockpiles in the form of B61 bombs are now stored. The INF Treaty was also supposed to eliminate the US BASED FORMATION system.

    At the start of negotiations, initially the stake was made, first of all by the Americans, and ours on missiles GROUND basing medium and shorter range. The USSR initially, while already in real negotiations, and not at the level of political proposals, agreed that the treaty did not affect the means of sea and air based. As well as advanced basing facilities. For the United States, it was carrier aircraft; for the USSR, bomber aircraft. Nuclear weapons in the form of bombs were not included in the calculations at all. And both in them and in our allied countries, such ammunition was stockpiled. so that the INF Treaty is only ground-based missiles from 500 to 5500 km. And no more.

    Quote: Bakht
    Now, due to the expansion of NATO to the East, it does not meet the interests of the Russian Federation at all. Why hold on to a disadvantageous agreement if you can just get out of it.

    I already wrote above why the Treaty currently corresponds to the security of Russia

    Quote: Bakht
    A direct violation of the Treaty is the entry of American ships into the Black Sea. I am surprised that the author passed over this moment in silence. There are 26 Tomahawk cruise missiles on missile cruisers such as Ticonderoga (which constantly hang around in the Black Sea). They definitely fall within the scope of this agreement.

    You know, dear, actually (no offense) in order to make such accusations to the author, it is desirable not only to hear the political statements of politicians of all stripes, but at least to read (I do not say to study) the INF Treaty. Then you would not have such questions. Marine "tomahawks" do not fall under this treaty at all, just as our analogous systems do not.
  11. 0
    20 September 2015 10: 32
    Quote: Bakht
    At one time, the Caribbean crisis began with the deployment of Jupiter missiles in Turkey.

    If we look at the chronology of this crisis, and it matured in the wrong six months (from the meeting of the Politburo in May to the deployment of missiles on the cube in October), but much longer. Almost TEN YEARS. The culmination of this 10-year-old crisis has been the Caribbean. But the phrase that you used reflects to a greater extent our political and ideological vision, our ideological assessment those events. If you look at the chronology, how and what developed, the estimates will be different from the ones you mentioned. But now it’s not profitable for us to talk about it publicly.

    Quote: Bakht
    The entry of American ships such as Ticonderoga and Arly Burke into the Black Sea violates the INF Treaty. And I am surprised that so far I have never heard protests from the Russian side on such a clear violation.

    And they don't violate anything. They enter the Black Sea in accordance with the Straits Convention; the presence of Tomahawk missiles on ships is not prohibited by the INF Treaty.

    The only thing that we really lost "thanks" to a couple of Gorbi-Shevardnadze was our complex "OKA"
    1. 0
      20 September 2015 11: 00
      You persistently insist that the Treaty was on terrestrial systems. I know this because I carefully read the text of the Treaty. But .. in all honesty, where the party card used to be, what difference does it make with which missiles?

      At the time of signing the Treaty, the range of the Tomahawk missiles was minimal. And were they at all? Is there any rockets at the moment? Are they located at the borders of the Russian Federation? Does flying time count in minutes? If the answers to these questions are positive, then you can make a conclusion yourself: is the RF Treaty beneficial or not?

      On the Caribbean Crisis. Our vision of the crisis (the point of view of the USSR) was correct and agreements confirmed this. Jupiters from Turkey removed. And these were just medium-range missiles. Now they are in modern packaging as TOMahawks appeared a couple of hundred kilometers closer to the borders of the Russian Federation.

      In principle, it is up to Russia and the Russians to decide whether this agreement is beneficial. From my point of view (an outside observer), Russia is still being bred. Like rabbits ... :-)
      1. +1
        20 September 2015 11: 26
        Quote: Bakht
        On the Caribbean Crisis. Our vision of the crisis (the point of view of the USSR) was correct and agreements confirmed this. Jupiters from Turkey removed. And these were just medium-range missiles. Now they are in modern packaging as TOMahawks appeared a couple of hundred kilometers closer to the borders of the Russian Federation.


        It seems to me that you do not want to see the difference between ballistic and cruise missiles with enviable obstinacy. Leave already tomahawks on the ships alone! They have subsonic speed and this is a completely different type of weapon. Under water in the Atlantic and the North Ocean near our bases, their submarines serve, why did you forget about them?
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. 0
    20 September 2015 10: 49
    Quote: Aspeed
    And if you remember that de facto they are already deploying their missiles under the guise of missile defense?

    What kind? "Standards"?
  14. 0
    20 September 2015 10: 56
    The author turned out a whole novel. Well, how can you read this is thin. composition?
  15. 0
    20 September 2015 11: 48
    Quote: Bakht
    At the time of signing the Treaty, the range of the Tomahawk missiles was minimal.

    Yeah, minimal. Quite the opposite. At the time of signing the contract, there were only 2 types of Tomahawks. Anti-ship with a range of 600 km and strategic with a range of 2500 km. There were simply no others then. And much later tactical tomahawks with a range of 1400-1600 km appeared. And the strategic ones were written off. So which had the longest range? A missile that was then with a range of 2500 or the current one with a range of 1600?

    Quote: Bakht
    But .. in all honesty, where the party card used to be, what difference does it make with which missiles?

    Awesome. Subsonic or at a speed of 12-15M? Don't you feel the difference?

    Quote: Bakht
    On the Caribbean Crisis. Our vision of the crisis (the point of view of the USSR) was correct and agreements confirmed this. Jupiters from Turkey removed. And these were just medium-range missiles. Now they are in modern packaging as TOMahawks appeared a couple of hundred kilometers closer to the borders of the Russian Federation.

    Well, what we have always been told is not always true. And the Americans agreed to this agreement to remove ours from their borders.

    The fact that a missile defense base has appeared in Devesela is a fact. But it’s stupid to think that Americans are so dumb that they scatter money. They are very good at
    1. Count money
    2. Calculate the optimal locations of their systems

    It turns out that they spend a certain amount on base equipment, of which only 1/3 will cost rockets, the rest is radars.
    If they would really like to put Tomahawks there, why fence a vegetable garden? Isn't it easy to just drive the destroyer there at the right time? But no. They put up radars, moreover, they place the base in such a place that, with the shortest route through Ukraine, the missiles will touch only the edge of the Voronezh region (with "tomahawks" if you shoot). Moreover, they place all this openly and the number of TPKs is 24. If we were to put Tomahawks there, then it would be necessary to place this base about 500 kilometers closer to the border with Ukraine. then at least it would be good.


    Yes, it is theoretically possible to charge these VPUs with Tomahawks. But what does it do?
    1. 0
      20 September 2015 12: 06
      The INF Treaty affects Any missiles with a range of up to 5000 km. Yes, it is composed of ground weapons. But what does it change in a military environment? By the way, cruise missiles are subject to the treaty.



      I did not specifically search for performance characteristics of the early Tomahawks. And he wrote presumably. The fact that they did not fall under the agreement only says that at that time no one assumed that they would appear off the Russian coast.

      On the Caribbean Crisis. Do not break the chronology. Soviet missiles appeared in Cuba in response to American missiles in Turkey. The USSR agreed to this agreement to remove American missiles from its borders. Does such an interpretation have a right to exist?

      Yes you are right. I say with enviable obstinacy that NATO missiles appeared near the borders of the Russian Federation. Together with missile defense systems. And advanced base systems. I just do not see point blank how this Agreement can be useful to the Russian Federation? If you think that it is useful, then this is your vision of the situation. Then please, abide by the terms of the Agreement. Iskenders must be removed from Kaliningrad and the Crimea. And preferably for the Urals, as the Americans demand.

      In addition to cruise missiles in the Black Sea, there are also in the North and the Far East. And missile defense systems on naval bases. Stationary and floating.

      According to the letter of the Treaty, the Russian Federation has the right to withdraw from it unilaterally. Since so many copies break around this question, it means that I am not the only one who assumes its harmfulness. I see only the environment of the Russian Federation with missile defense systems and an offensive weapon system that can quickly reach the country's territory.

      But again I repeat. These are the problems of Russia and Russians. If you consider the Agreement to be beneficial - take the trouble to comply with all of its clauses. Consider unprofitable - it's time to get out of it.
  16. +1
    20 September 2015 13: 10
    Quote: Bakht
    The INF Treaty affects Any missiles with a range of up to 5000 km. Yes, it is composed of ground weapons. But what does it change in a military environment? By the way, cruise missiles are subject to the treaty.


    Let's not juggle. The contract is in question EXCLUSIVELY about rockets GROUND BASING. And this is in every article, starting from Article II, which reads:

    Article II
    For the purposes of this Agreement:

    1. The term "ballistic missile" means a missile the majority of which is flown along a ballistic trajectory.
    The term "ground-based ballistic missile (GLBM)" means a ground-based ballistic missile, which is a weapon delivery vehicle.

    2. The term "cruise missile" means an unmanned vehicle equipped with its own propulsion system, the flight of which for most of its trajectory is provided by the use of aerodynamic lift.
    The term "ground-based cruise missile (GLCM)" means a ground-based cruise missile, which is a weapon delivery vehicle.
    Etc. on all other articles

    Even in that article, a fragment of the scan of which you demonstrated (by the way, why didn’t you show point 2?), Starting with point 2, mention of missiles in almost every line GROUND BASING and not once about everyone else. So you should not invent what is not.

    Quote: Bakht
    I did not specifically search for performance characteristics of the early Tomahawks. And he wrote presumably. The fact that they did not fall under the agreement only says that at that time no one assumed that they would appear off the Russian coast.


    You may not have searched specifically, but your phrase does not say that you wrote "presumably". It is very clearly written there:

    At the time of signing the Treaty, the range of the Tomahawk missiles was minimal


    A doubting person does not write like that. And you think in vain that no one imagined. The leadership of the USSR was well aware of the presence of SLCM off the coast of the USSR on sea carriers.
  17. 0
    20 September 2015 13: 17
    Quote: Bakht
    On the Caribbean Crisis. Do not break the chronology. Soviet missiles appeared in Cuba in response to American missiles in Turkey. The USSR agreed to this agreement to remove American missiles from its borders. Does such an interpretation have a right to exist?


    Such an interpretation has the right to exist. And in principle, it does not contradict events. But no one ever asks the question of why the deployment of American medium-range missiles in Europe occurred, which was the impetus for this.. And this is the most interesting thing in the climax of the 10-year confrontation - in the Caribbean crisis.
    But Khrushchev’s voluntary decision almost ended in World War 3 (initially it was supported only by Mikoyan and Ustinov, even Malinovsky was against it). And the leadership of the USSR was also aware that the BRDS, at least in the UK, would be removed by 1964.

    Quote: Bakht
    Yes you are right. I say with enviable obstinacy that NATO missiles appeared near the borders of the Russian Federation. Together with missile defense systems. And advanced base systems. I just do not see point blank how this Agreement can be useful to the Russian Federation? If you think that it is useful, then this is your vision of the situation. Then please, abide by the terms of the Agreement. Iskenders must be removed from Kaliningrad and the Crimea. And preferably for the Urals, as the Americans demand.


    Advanced Base Systems NEVER were not the subject of negotiations between the USSR and the USA. Both sides perfectly understood the futility of requirements of this nature.
    Point blank you do not see how it is now useful to the Russian Federation? Why? After all, still on the surface. And it’s not entirely clear why, in order to comply with the Treaty, we must remove Iskanders from Kaliningrad? There are no Iskanders in Crimea (at least at the present time). What are they violating? What is the Treaty?

    Quote: Bakht
    In addition to cruise missiles in the Black Sea, there are also in the North and the Far East. And missile defense systems on naval bases. Stationary and floating.

    In the Black Sea on an ongoing basis NO WINGED ROCKETS of such a type. They are (may be) on board American ships in the Black Sea (again, not permanently)
    Of course, there are CDs in other seas, aboard American cruisers and destroyers, aboard submarines. And missile defense systems are on US destroyers and cruisers. Not at all - but there is. Also available in Japanese. If by the term "on floating bases" you mean on ships - yes, there are on ships. There are no missile defense systems on stationary offshore platforms. There is a floating radar in the Pacific Ocean in the amount of 1 piece.
  18. +1
    20 September 2015 13: 17
    Quote: Bakht
    According to the letter of the Treaty, the Russian Federation has the right to withdraw from it unilaterally. Since so many copies break around this question, it means that I am not the only one who assumes its harmfulness. I see only the environment of the Russian Federation with missile defense systems and an offensive weapon system that can quickly reach the country's territory.


    But as many copies break for NO EXIT from the contract.
    Russia's environment with missile defense systems - it is more a product of the targeted, everyday impact of our propaganda.

    "Surrounding" us with ABM bases looks like this.

    ONE missile defense base in Romania (readiness level - early 2016), oriented by the central radar to the southeast towards Turkey, Iran (general viewing area - 240 degrees) with 24 missile defense systems. The range of the radar is up to 1000-1500 km.
    • A couple of ships in the Mediterranean Sea (with the periodic entry of one of them into the World Cup).
    • The TAAAD system in Turkey, the radar in Turkey (and possibly in Israel), focused on Iran.

    And that’s all. The remaining ships are in the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean, and by no means close to our shores. Outage и VPR located in the United States. When will be in Poland - is unknown. And whether it will be. What is the environment of missile defense systems? What about offensive weapons? Has something changed in the last quarter century?

    Quote: Bakht
    These are the problems of Russia and Russians. If you consider the Agreement to be beneficial - take the trouble to comply with all of its clauses. Consider unprofitable - it's time to get out of it.

    And we observe it. And the exit is not profitable for us now. The re-equipment of the Strategic Missile Forces and the NSNF is underway, and it is technically impossible to "hang" the production of several hundred MRBMs. And we will disrupt the rearmament of the Strategic Missile Forces / NSNF, and we will receive the MRBM in the required quantity in 10-15 years.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. +2
    20 September 2015 14: 25
    Quote: Bakht
    Nice to read normal criticism.

    But ... I didn’t mix anything. The US’s unilateral withdrawal from the ABM treaty and the presence of the Tomahawks in the Black Sea (the range of the marine option is up to 1500 km. Sometimes they write 2500 km. Probably depends on the modifications) makes the INF Treaty a simple fiction. But it allows opponents to blame the Russian Federation for violating the Treaty. Which is more or less true. The fact that they themselves violate the Agreement is not advertised.

    the presence of "Tomahawks" in the Black Sea does not play any role. The number of CD can be different, of course, but on average it is 26 on cruisers and 8 on destroyers. Only during crises, when a massive strike is needed, they can be re-equipped and carry up to 56 CR. In other cases, destroyers in a multipurpose version, with a large number of anti-aircraft missiles.
    American cruisers have not entered the World Cup for a long time. There are only ONE destroyers there, with other ships, such as a frigate and transport - maybe more. But basically one. What can this destroyer be able to do at the World Cup, even if it is equipped with 56 missiles? Shoot on our shore? Subsonic? Well, you have to be a sadomasochist to make one ship .... Even if he shoots from Odessa, then missiles will go to the target in Crimea for 20 minutes. To others, to the Caucasus - even more. What will it give?
    In principle, neither party violates the Agreement. Simply because of political expediency, everyone blames the other. We are in violation of the "spirit of the Treaty", they are in violation of the "letter of the Treaty". Neither party nor the other side submitted materials that 100% spoke of a violation. Everyone acts on the principle "we know that you know what we know"

    Quote: Bakht
    So the withdrawal from the Treaty, which currently does not correspond to the interests of the Russian Federation (like you yourself admit it) has already matured. What is the point of the Russian Federation to abide by a treaty that directly affects the vital interests of the Russian Federation?

    It is precisely because it affects vital interests that we do not leave. The exit will turn us sideways. We will get really strike weapons at our borders with a flight time of 3-5 minutes, and in return we can’t do anything, because our similar ones will not reach the USA, but we will not be able to deploy quickly.
  21. +1
    20 September 2015 14: 25
    Quote: Bakht
    The solution could be as simple as during the Caribbean crisis. No NATO ships have the right to enter the Black Sea if they are armed (or may be armed) with weapons covered by the Treaty. Dismantling the missile defense system in Europe. And as a response, remove Russian missiles from the Crimea and Kaliningrad.

    You mix everything together again. There is no agreement prohibiting the presence of ships of other countries in the Black Sea, no matter what they are armed. Especially if this weapon is not subject to the INF Treaty. Dismantling EuroPro? Over time, maybe we will agree, or maybe not. Now, from this, EuroPro is neither cold nor hot. And again, with whom to negotiate? From the USA? With France? With Italy? With the UK?
    Russian missiles in Crimea are interesting, but from the realm of fiction, moreover, these missiles do not fall under the Treaty.

    Quote: Bakht
    So the withdrawal of the Russian Federation from the Treaty is ABSOLUTELY beneficial to Russia. Being in this agreement calls into question the security of the Russian Federation.

    Okay, let's say we withdraw from the Treaty. Our "sworn friends" declare that they have made a decision to deploy ballistic missiles in Europe. They have factories, they have capacities, and they have developed structures. A certain target rocket is taken, some of the launch vehicles, and after minor alterations, they can be used as an MRBM. What can we do in return? Give us an offer.

    Quote: Bakht
    There is one more point on which attention is not focused. This is an increase in the level of an unprovoked nuclear war. Reduced flight time. When an accidental launch from Arly Burke or Ticonderoga will be perceived as direct aggression. Since the reaction time is rapidly decreasing, decision-making will have to be moved to a lower level.

    The accidental launch of a cruise missile cannot be perceived as direct aggression, if only because, under an agreement between us and the Americans, nuclear weapons were removed from surface ships.

    Quote: Bakht
    You just admit the fact that the American Tomahawks are already at the borders of the Russian Federation. Missile cruisers are in the Black Sea almost on an ongoing basis. And this is from 26 to 32 missiles on one ship.

    I repeat, they have always been on the shores of the USSR and now in Russia. But then they were "nuclear" tomahawks, now - with conventional BG. In the World Cup, American ships ARE NOT ON A PERMANENT BASIS, often - yes, but not on a permanent basis. And besides, I repeat, I no longer remember when an American cruiser entered the World Cup, most often destroyers, and on them again, in a multipurpose version - only 8 "tomahawks". In such campaigns, the most needed weapon is anti-aircraft, not strike. But even if there are 26 tomahawks, they will not make the weather ...

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Quote: Bakht
    Sometimes they write 2500 km. Probably depends on the modifications)

    Depends on the type of warhead. Special warheads are easier, flying further. Conventional is heavier.

    You are right, but the special warhead has long been (at least 5-7 years removed from the Kyrgyz Republic, and the missiles themselves have been disposed of
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. +1
    20 September 2015 15: 32
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Why pervert? There is experience in converting ballistic missile systems into ballistic missiles; the SM-3 Block II range is quite enough to cover Moscow from the Baltic states. Reflash the software and replace the warhead - and you're done. For 6 months it is quite possible to meet the deadline. Moreover, the flight time will not be 10 minutes, but 5 by force.

    Technically, it is certainly possible. But, how would it be easier to say. The Chinese, yes, turned our missile from the S-75 complex into a short-range ballistic missile. But the task of missiles, as well as anti-missiles, is to "carry" a small charge to the target at high speed, for a ballistic one - to carry a charge of much greater weight over a long range, albeit with a lower initial speed. SAM has more acceleration, BR has less. The ESNIP head at the "Standard" (kinetic interceptor) is about 50-80 kg. It also contains the homing system. The ballistic missile will have to put its own, separate control system. Let it weigh at least 10-20 kg, but these 10-20 will eat from the total weight of 50-80 these kilograms. And what power will the charge be. Even if we take into account that the coefficient of the best modern BGs is 2-2,15 (the ratio of kg to ct), then 30-60 kg is a maximum of 60-120 ct. But at the same time, one must also take into account the thermal protection system. In general, the game is not worth the candle
  24. 0
    20 September 2015 19: 15
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    I considered the fastest option so that for those 6 months that were allotted to withdraw from the Treaty, everything was already ready. Accordingly, there is no need to evaluate hypothetical pH or warheads, only existing ones. As far as I am informed, the SM-3 Block II is the most powerful missile in power under the Mk41. When replacing the 3rd stage with the Pershing W85 (400 kg), you should get exactly what you need. Especially when you consider that the range of Block II is estimated at 3 thousand km., And for us (enemies) it is enough 3-5 times less. Take the W50 to the extreme, the SM-3 will definitely be enough for it.

    It is unlikely that with all the energy, Block 2 will have such a load capacity to raise the W85 or W50. In addition, the W50 was dismantled according to the contract in 1991, and the W85 - the physical package was used for B-61 bombs mod.10
  25. 0
    20 September 2015 20: 03
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    What confuses you? W85 weighs 400 kg, W50 - 200. The 3rd stage of the SM-3 with an interceptor weighs the same 200 kg plus or minus.

    Maybe. But here's the thing. The net weight of the warhead, even with heat protection, is not all. We also need a guidance system, a breeding stage, some kind of missile defense system. The main thing is that it is not clear how all this will be managed. After all, the ICBM control system is still different from the anti-aircraft missile guidance system ...

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Dismantled. But Americans don't like to throw anything away. They write "last units retired in 1991", but if "retired" then they may be found somewhere under the sofa.

    Of course nothing was thrown away, but what are the former BGs. When they are in "hot standby", it is clear that the charge is practically in an assembled state, without separate parts stored separately. But what the dismantled W50 is - no one knows

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Yeah. Do you think putting back will take a lot of time?

    For the sake of a mythical "pseudo-missile" to remove from service more than a hundred of the most modern bombs? I don't think
  26. 0
    20 September 2015 23: 39
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Do not understand. For some reason, it seemed to me that the W85 already contains everything you need. By the way, what does the ICBM and the breeding system have to do with it? We rivet the longer-range MGM-52 Lance under the Mk41, not the LGM-118A.

    The most common misconception. Regarding W85 - this is only BG. The head part itself consists of THREE parts. The front, where there are elements of the guidance system, detonation system sensors. Middle - where is the charge itself (warhead), the rear - inertial control system and actuators.
    In principle, any missile with a nuclear charge has a double designation. For example, I will give the American MX. Its warhead is designated Mk-21 / W-87. Where the warhead, consisting of the guidance system, is designated Mk-21, and the warhead itself is W-87. Somewhere in the archive there was a designation for the "Pershing-2" warhead, but you have to look for it. It's even more interesting with us. For example, here is our Pioneer missile system. The very designation of the complex is 15P645, missiles - 15Zh45. And then - the 15F453 multiple warhead, the warhead itself (the warhead body) is 15F454, the warhead is designated AA-74, and the charge itself is R-781.
    Well, maybe not ICBMs, but not Lance extended range. It will be a pseudo BRDS (in order to reach the territory of Russia from the territory of the same Romania or Poland ... And there you will need a guidance system, a platform on which the BG is mounted, and a thermal protection system, since the BG is inside the unit. And this is all the weight. In sum, it turns out that such a pseudo BRDS may not reach Russia at all.

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Yes, a rather muddy story. But I venture to suggest that they were not taken out to the landfill. Will be needed - there are.

    Of course not thrown away. But it could be dismantled to such a state that only fissile material remained from it. And everything else is either already used in others or disposed of ...

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Excuse me, why "mythical" and why "more than a hundred"? W85 was not "mythical", I think it will not be difficult to restore a 40-year-old sample. I think they can also calculate whether the carrier's energy is enough for its weight without testing. So there is no particular risk.

    Mythical - because no one tested the STANDARD rocket in that capacity and no one can say how it will lead, what accuracy will be. The warhead is certainly not mythical. And what sample of 40 years ago is not a problem to restore, I did not understand something? Pershing? so we are talking about the STANDARD. If we talk about the warhead itself, about the physical package, then it is used, maybe a little changed (or maybe not) in the B-61-10 bomb.

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Regardless of "pseudo-missiles", what prevents the removal from service of more than a hundred of the most modern bombs, except for cheap Air Force show-offs? Who, strictly speaking, is going to throw free-falling thermonuclear bombs from planes? WWII reenactors?

    All. And the Americans, and we, and the Indians with the Pakistanis, and the British with the French, and Israel. In the future, and North Korea with Iran
  27. +1
    22 September 2015 22: 46
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Do not understand. Does W85 have none of this? And why is it heavier than the B-61 then? And how much does it weigh?

    No. The W-85 is just a warhead. Something from the electronics is there, but the automation of the detonation, the guidance system in the final section and the inertial throughout the flight are all in the head part. All warheads - 1362 kg.
    Regarding the weight of the B-61 bomb. Most often, indicating a weight of 300 kg is the weight of the bomb body itself with all the bells and whistles, but without a charge. The weight of the B-61 model 11 bomb is 540 kg.

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Which one? Three-headed? There, yes, the breeding system is not an easy thing, the most difficult thing that is in the ICBMs. But I'm talking about a candy bar.

    I cited MX as an example, not because it is multi-headed. By the way, she has 10 heads, not 3. Minuteman-3 has three heads. I indicated it in order to show that the terminology is not always respected and this introduces its own confusion. Most people think that there is a warhead - and everything, everything is concentrated in it. This is not the case. About MX they write that it has 10 W-87 warheads, but this description is somewhat lame. The missile has 10 Mk.21 warheads, each unit includes a detonation system, other auxiliary systems and W-87 warheads. Sometimes, instead of a warhead, they write a warhead, and instead of the warhead itself, that is, a charge, a warhead. In my opinion, the first option is more terminologically accurate.
    But in any case, whether it is an ICBM or an IRBM, but at such ranges the inertial system gives large errors, and in order to compensate for these errors, the BG, well, let's say, "targeting". The warheads themselves are installed on a stage, which is called differently: a combat stage, a breeding stage, which, after separation from the missile, makes the final aiming of the BB at the target. In addition, the rocket has an instrument compartment, which includes an on-board control system that controls the missile during flight, which consists of a gyro-stabilized platform of an inertial guidance system, an on-board computer ... As you can see, the BG is only a fragment of the combat load (separable I'm not touching now).
    You can see, for example, how our one-stage types "Oka", "Tochka", "Iskander". In the upper part of the missile part (between the engines and the head itself there is an instrument compartment. In the lower part of the head there is an automatic warhead (automatic detonation). And all this is weight, weight and weight. The flight of an anti-aircraft missile still occurs according to a slightly different algorithm than a ballistic missile
  28. 0
    22 September 2015 22: 48
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Why Romania? There is no need to build an ashore under the BR of Aegis, and pulling PUs to the Baltic states is quite feasible, they will even fit on the trailer.

    Technically, yes, you can go to the trailer. But we do not consider a priori Americans to be complete k.retinov? If they are deploying a missile defense system (although many comrades have already thought that they will stick a "standard" with a nuclear head there), then it must be done in such a way that it could be used as a missile defense system. And this is a stationary system with radars and three launchers. Namely, if we make the assumption that the Americans are going to "cheat" us, then they should do so. No, of course it is possible to place a launcher on the trailer, but it will need to be brought to a vertical position in 1, and in 2 to have the whole complex of machines. That is, the combat control system, auxiliary vehicles, communications. Well, then it will be necessary to initially assume that our intelligence is blind and will not be able to detect and identify a sufficiently specific set. B-3, to launch it just like that, even with a global positioning system, is still not the best option. Nevertheless, the launch, for sufficiently accurate guidance, must take place from sites prepared in a geodetic sense. And for this it is necessary to produce a lot of work that cannot be done in an hour or a day ...

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Do you think it will take a lot of time? Old people retired, young went to the guards, equipment handed over to the colorimeter, how can I not say in which country?

    Not very much if all this is in the arsenal of storage. You can collect the charge, and then the warhead. But provided that all components are in place. And if some of them are either disposed of, or used in other charges, how then?

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    If we consider the task of URGENTLY making a new ballistic missile for Mk41, then we will have to take the existing elements (the Americans are already trying to take the existing elements as much as possible). SM3 is the most powerful sample. As for the tests of "Standards" for ground targets, they were carried out (SM2) 15 years ago. RGM-165A, warhead MK-125 135 kg with a rocket weight of 620 kg. Range 300 km. Not accepted for service due to low efficiency against moving targets and bunkers. But for special warheads this is not relevant. We need x3 range and at least x1.5 warhead weight (for W50). At the same time, the starting weight of the SM3 is three times higher. IMHO does not look impossible, despite the fact that the achieved range of the original SM3 Block II is 3 thousand km.

    Well, if there is an urgent need to make a medium-range missile, then there is no point in creating a surrogate. You yourself have taken the example with the "Standard" SM-2. It is ineffective due to the fact that having the appropriate devices for controlling the missile as a missile, it was used "off-profile." In fact, as an "unguided" ballistic missile. Well, a 300 kg head is too little, even for ordinary, not to mention protected targets.
    If you need it urgently, the Americans can make it easier. They have target missiles with IRBM parameters. By the way, we accuse them of creating these targets, saying that they "violated the spirit of the treaty" because we cannot find fault with the "letter of the treaty". They did it using the provisions of this treaty ... These are HERA, LRALT and MRT target missiles. The first has a range of 1200, the second - 2000, the third - 1100
  29. +1
    22 September 2015 22: 48
    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    In this case, the starting weight of the SM3 is three times higher. IMHO does not look impossible, despite the fact that the achieved range of the original SM3 Block II is 3 thousand km.

    Impossible does not look, but requires a radical restructuring of the rocket. That is, it will cease to be a missile, and what will be the PR - HZ ...

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    W85. Everything else is just a way to throw it on the desired trajectory.

    And they did not go anywhere. They are installed in B-61 bombs these charges. Or do you mean to restart production? Well then, something easier, the same W-50

    Quote: Zero Nil Seventh
    Yah? Free falling bombs from airplanes? Maybe the guys from the US Air Force simply do not want to acknowledge their futility in terms of strategic weapons after they sawed the AGM-129 ACM?

    Well, it’s not always profitable to use expensive rockets. There are a number of tasks that bombers, and nuclear bombs, can solve. Nevertheless, the Kyrgyz Republic is a strategic weapon and it is taken into account by completely different treaties.
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. +1
    11 October 2015 21: 14
    I hope to survive when this treaty as a legacy of the hunchback will be canceled

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