Engineer as a rare shot ...

181
Import substitution ... The term, which in recent months has become one of the most frequently spoken by the representatives of the Russian government at various levels. That's just to establish a direct proportionality between the number of pronunciations of the word and the volume of real achievements in the import-substituting process is not yet obtained. In the overwhelming majority of cases, import substitution for some reason means the refusal of import from one group of states in favor of import from another group of states. Replacement - yes ... Import ... - no ... And this is not only about the food market, although it is in the food sector that reducing import volumes by increasing own production and improving logistics efficiency in the domestic market is primarily an achievable task. However, as they say, not by bread alone ...

One of the directions, which is not less strategically important than the provision of own and high-quality food, is the sphere of engineering technologies. There is a whole scattering of announcements in the network with offers of services from hundreds of so-called engineering companies, declaring their readiness to create projects, supply and install the equipment necessary for their implementation, conduct comprehensive technical supervision and even serve investment flows. And the engineering companies for the most part are Russian, which seems to be a sign that Russia does not need any help in developing and bringing to mind projects of various levels. But in reality, things are not as simple as they might seem.

The statistics services claim that recently the number of engineering companies in the Russian Federation has increased significantly. If even 10 years ago, their number in the total mass of Russian business units was measured in fractions of a percent, then now the engineering structures (if statistics are to be believed) are no less than 2%. But are they all ready to guarantee the fulfillment of the declared functions of designing, attracting investments, technical support and further implementation of the project? ..

It is quite simple to answer this question if we consider any average project that goes beyond the framework of “designing and investing” a drain pit in the summer cottage. As soon as it comes to the need to realize something large enough in scale, companies that have announced their "engineering" suddenly begin to actively look for ways out of the situation. What is the output? The point is that the company is trying to get the right to create and implement a project without having sufficient potentials. And as soon as such a right is obtained (suddenly), they are throwing themselves from side to side at least in terms of finding qualified personnel who could be engaged in designing. On behalf of the company, “announcements” are brought up about attracting engineering personnel who are able to help with the project.
On the one hand, all this can be called a market economy: that there was no money - there was a company, but the company had no engineering potential, and as soon as they got the right to the project - you can also find qualified specialists at the labor exchanges. But there is a downside: are there any guarantees that in a short time it will be possible to find those design engineers and other specialists who are able to turn the de facto company “Horns and hoofs” into a real engineering structure with all the possibilities servicing a large project? And not only in a short time, but in general ... Unfortunately, no one can give such guarantees, as qualified engineers (in virtually any industry) are too much in demand today for them to sit and wait for any of the "engineering" companies will suddenly give an announcement of a vacancy and call them to him. And the engineers who are able to realize a project of impressive scale are a single piece “product”.

Engineer as a rare shot ...


The practice of “pre-import-replacing” times said that the way out of the situation was through the involvement of foreign experts in the project. That is, a Russian company that, according to all the documents, is “engineering”, used the services of a truly engineering foreign company, well established in the market and having a wealth of experience, human resources and technical equipment. It is easy to guess that a significant proportion of the funds allocated to the project ended up being abroad, from which the Russian budget did not receive enough impressive funds that could be received in taxes. It happened that the customer, realizing that the engineering of the majority of Russian structures, unfortunately, was fake, or for “some other” reasons, was directly seeking access to foreign structures in order to sign a contract with them. However, in some cases this led to unpredictable results.

One example is the signing of a contract with the German company Rheinmetall for the construction of a military training center (combat training center) in Mulino in pre-sanctioned times by the Russian Ministry of Defense. German specialists had to work on the project, which is called from A to Z, but in the end it turned out that the Germans had time to say their “A”, but instead of German “Z” they no longer had German, and Russian companies had to say Russian “I’m ". The fact is that “from somewhere above” Rheinmetall was instructed to stop the implementation of the project, because the sanctions ... But the German “comrades” already had the money, as they say, uplifts ... As a result, we had to pay more, but already the Russian “Garrison” ”, Which was supposed to bring to mind the project of the combat training center with all its special stands, target complexes and software of the facility.

The fact that with our own engineering potential we (Russia) are experiencing serious problems, says the information of the all-Russian base of vacancies "Work in Russia". The page provides a group of jobs for engineers. And this is one of those groups that continues to expand. At the time of the preparation of the material, the all-Russian base issued more than 1600 engineering vacancies in Moscow alone. In all regions, the number of vacancies exceeded 16,2 thousand. The main question is: where can we get so many engineering specialists, if practically all post-Soviet years the outlook in the style “abroad will help us” and “three diplomas of lawyer, economist and manager were formed engineer ”... And the answer to this question can be only one: specialists must be trained at home, reviving a full-fledged engineering school, actually buried by the system of training“ defective managers ”. And this in itself should become a strategically important task, so that later it would not be necessary to rely on the "district metals" and other "partner" associations. The main thing to remember is that shouting about import substitution (and also in the engineering field) and systematically following the path of developing your own potentials is not the same thing.
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  1. +41
    14 September 2015 06: 03
    For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is a rarity.
    1. +7
      14 September 2015 06: 08
      D is not so simple. It was difficult to find a good engineer before ..... and those that were produced ..... and mechanics could be called with a big stretch! Just don’t talk about the miracle of the automotive industry: the Cossack and the Muscovite, according to which you are so plastered .....
      1. +21
        14 September 2015 13: 05
        EGOrkka "D not everything is so simple. It was difficult to find a good engineer before ..... and those that were produced ..... and could be called mechanics with a big stretch! Just do not talk about the miracle of the automobile industry: a Zaporozhets and a Muscovite, according to which you insist on like that .. "
        We will talk about aircraft construction, rocket science, the nuclear industry, and the defense industry. Not enough?))) Shipbuilding.))) On the entire infrastructure of the country: pipelines, railways, airports., Ports, the unified power system of the USSR. Which are used by all the former republics of the USSR to this day.
        But the Cossack and the Muscovite ... this is a matter of state priorities. Then it was believed that this was not the main thing. Pancake. but Su27 and Mig 29 are more important.))))
        1. -4
          14 September 2015 15: 11
          Nagaibak
          But the Cossack and the Muscovite ... this is a matter of state priorities. Then it was believed that this was not the main thing.


          ... so the engineers designed the "Zaporozhets" and "Muscovites" or not the engineers? The list goes on and on ...
          1. +7
            14 September 2015 15: 39
            EGOrkka "... this is how engineers designed" Zaporozhets "and" Muscovites "or not engineers? The list can be continued ...."
            So who designed the Soyuz spacecraft? Or not engineers?))) The list goes on ...
            1. -2
              15 September 2015 04: 59
              ... you get some kind of Jewish Jewry: to a question, a question. If the Zaporozhets and the Muscovites were not designed by engineers, then why were they called engineers? I understand that raising and training an engineer is difficult and far from fast! And what was produced in universities in the greater mass by engineers was not the main answer to your question! And then there was no sense in the country to “pay” the under-engineers, and now it does not! As well as a huge mass of lawyers, although legal literacy is never superfluous, in a legal society! hi
              1. +2
                15 September 2015 07: 27
                EGOrkka ". You get some kind of Jewish Jewry: to a question, a question. If the Zaporozhets and Muscovites were not designed by engineers, then why were they called engineers."
                You are talking nonsense in this matter. Ask inappropriate questions. I answered you more than intelligibly. And I do not understand))) how else to explain to you. Do not pour mud on Soviet education and Soviet engineers. First, find a replacement for them among the modern cadres. So far, everything rests with us precisely on the people of that still Soviet hardening. Minuses are not mine.
                1. +2
                  15 September 2015 08: 19
                  For its time, the Muscovite was not a bad car and exported. You would at least read about the car before pouring mud. It is clear that he was then outdated and there was nothing to replace him. So this is more a matter of financing, rather than engineers.
                  "Moskvich-412 was widely offered on the foreign market until the mid-seventies. The export geography included both the countries of the socialist camp and Western European states (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Great Britain, Germany, Finland, Scandinavian countries, Greece and others), as well as countries Latin America (Cuba, Nicaragua, Jamaica, Panama).

                  M-412 was exported under brands representing various variants of the romanized spelling of the word "Moskvich" - Moskvich, Moskvitch, Moskwitsch, Moskvitsh; or (to some markets) as the Moskvitch Elite 1500 or simply Elite 1500 (the designation Elite 1500 Cavalier is also found on Finnish advertising leaflets), and enjoyed relatively good demand until the mid-seventies, including in Western Europe. "The most successful period for export The Muscovites were at the turn of the sixties and seventies, and their successful performance in the sensational rally-raids like London-Sydney (1968) and London-Mexico (1970), Western Safari - Argungu greatly contributed to the growth of their popularity [5] [6] (1973) and others, in which the car proved to be reliable and adapted for difficult road conditions.It was the conservative but strong design that was the main trump card of the Moskvich-412, along with a fairly modern and relatively powerful engine, especially by standards its price group. "
                2. -1
                  15 September 2015 09: 06
                  Nagaibak
                  So far, everything rests with us precisely on the people of that still Soviet hardening


                  For me, an engineer is not someone who should, but who can! However, like another specialist. But today - much more is needed than an expert in calculations and a determinant of schemes. We need a creator, manager, organizer and not a nimble "closet" with shelves for knowledge ....! The school should be different !!!!! brought up on the initiative !!!!!
                  (Of course, I could be a little bit wrong about "unions" with "progress" that fall every other time, but this is not the point of the conversation ...)
                  1. +2
                    15 September 2015 09: 34
                    EGOrkka "Of course, I could have been a bit lousy about" unions "with" progress "that fall every other time."
                    Yorn on health.)))) And I jerk on.))) They started to fall under the very rule of democratic power.))) Previously, they somehow did not fall. When the Union would have fallen))) So much for the degradation to which the country was let down, sweeping away the Soviet one. This is necessary ... to bring the most reliable seven to the handle. The school is different))) and what does our school bother you with? Is she not initiative? - Stupidity. The fact that everything is still holding on to it and has not collapsed?))) This is what safety margin was laid when new leaders have not been exploiting the Soviet heritage for more than 20 years and cannot finish it off.))) Missiles fly, planes too locomotives go, ships go.))) Yes, they dropped the civil aircraft industry, well, let's see.
                    That means everything was bad))) but there isn’t any new one. Pshik guys.)))
                    For you, an engineer ... maybe))) ... should.))) A pun. So you think that the Communists did not have any merits in front of the country?))) Or do you theorize in general?))) Then this is another question, keep on health.
                    1. 0
                      15 September 2015 10: 37
                      Nagaibak
                      They began to fall under the very rule of democratic power.


                      Nagaibak
                      So far, everything rests with us precisely on the people of that still Soviet hardening

                      ... I did not pull your tongue ....
                      Now, in turn, about the engineering successes of the USSR:
                      1. After the revolution of 1917, the engineering school was formed precisely on the enthusiasm of the masses.
                      2. A lot of open and closed contests gave a good impetus ..
                      3. Widely purchased technologies and samples abroad (aircraft engine industry)
                      4. .... no matter what they say, the pressure from the GPU also did not contribute to slackness.
                      .................................................. ..............................
                      ...
                      ....... you can continue but it's a long time .............. bully
                      1. +2
                        15 September 2015 12: 49
                        EGOrkka ". The engineering school after the 1917 revolution was formed precisely on the enthusiasm of the masses."
                        Yes, well?)) Is that bad?)))
                        EGOrkka "A lot of open and closed competitions gave a good impetus."
                        And that's bad?)))
                        EGOrkka "Technologies and samples were widely purchased abroad (aircraft engine industry)"
                        And who did not buy them?)))
                        Pressure from the GPU)))
                        By the way, if you write about the GPU, then you should know that under Stalin the engineers received very good salaries, it was later under Brezhnev that they were reduced.
                        And what? The meaning of your passage? And now all that is being created is the development of those Soviet developments that are a hundred years old at lunch. And what?
                        What are you not pulling there and for something garbage. I meant people in the workplace who received a normal education. Unions began to fall already in the 2000s. This is the result of the board of your current managers. And you throw all the stones in the Soviet garden.))) Maybe you will start to do something?)))
                        It is a pity I do not know the city in which you live.)))
                    2. -4
                      15 September 2015 12: 47
                      Nagaibak
                      So you think that the Communists did not have any merit to the country?


                      So are we talking about communists or about engineers? If about the communists, then they are directly responsible for the collapse of the country and the national economy !!! They were the ones holding the reins of government in their hands: they got drunk, conceited and overgrown with "moss", reveling in past victories !!! hi
                      1. +1
                        15 September 2015 13: 07
                        = EGOrkka "So we are about the communists or about the engineers? If about the communists, then they are directly responsible for the collapse of the country and the national economy !!! They are the ones holding the reins of government in their hands: they got drunk, conceited and overgrown with" moss "reveling in past victories! !! "
                        How easily you pour mud at all.))) Have you come up with a lot of things in your life and implemented them?))) I see you have nothing more to say.))) Besides the slogans. Trying to catch a word.)))) So what city are you from, if not secret?))) By the way, regarding the Communists))) a lot of engineers were them. And they determined the policy in the country. It is strange that you do not know about this.))) But you betrayed everyone to Gorbach and Alkash.)))
                      2. -2
                        15 September 2015 15: 17
                        Nagaibak
                        How you easily mud all over.)


                        Who forbade cybernetics and selection? Who was going to cultivate the corn queen of the fields everywhere? Who nearly cut the entire fleet and artillery? Whose economy should be economical? Who struggled with vineyards and orchards? Do not indulge in living past - your past is not a city garden!
                      3. +2
                        15 September 2015 18: 58
                        EGOrkka "Do not indulge in insanity by living in the past - your past is not a garden city!"
                        You are engaged in insanity.))) All spitting.)) I do not live in the past.))) I am quite a modern person. Our childhood was really happy. And the city was a garden.))))
                        EGOrkka "Who was going to cultivate corn the queen of the fields everywhere?"
                        In-senility do not cultivate it at all.)))
                        Mistakes and senile decisions occur everywhere .. someone pours milk in hundreds of liters, someone instills apples. What happens under capitalism less insanity?))) Asphalt is laid in snow and rain in Russia at all times.))) Or not?)))
                        EGOrkka "Who should have economical economy?"
                        And what is bad in an economical economy. Do you even know what it was said?)))
                        I don’t know how old you are and I don’t know what city you are from. So for now, bye. You live bored with stamps, talking with stamps.
                      4. -2
                        16 September 2015 03: 42
                        Nagaibak
                        Mistakes and senility decisions occur everywhere ..


                        Socialism over communism is a system of mistakes! Look at how the same system of errors is applied on the now ruin, but Eurocommunism in a cynical Bandera way !!!! I didn’t tell you anything sweeping, I just listed the slogans of your favorite leaders. And you immediately felt "bored" .....
                      5. +1
                        16 September 2015 06: 13
                        EGOrkka "! I didn't tell you anything indiscriminate, I just listed the slogans of your favorite leaders. And you immediately felt" bored "....."
                        You argue in general, without specifics, therefore, it is not interesting. Blah blah blah. You indiscriminately talk about my "beloved leaders". Although your leaders have not done anything yet.
                      6. +2
                        16 September 2015 06: 34
                        Add in your key. It is difficult to argue with a person who studied according to the textbooks of Chubais and Gaidar. After all, you allow yourself such statements about my leaders))) so I voiced your leaders.
                      7. -2
                        16 September 2015 11: 14
                        Nagaibak
                        It is hard to argue with a person who studied in the textbooks of Chubais and Gaidar.


                        .... no, we had the same textbooks, but the teachers and schools are different ...... you are more in the "heavens" and I am on the ground .... with my feet.

                        Question: what can you do? (pens and head).
          2. +14
            14 September 2015 15: 42
            The list can be completed, as it is not regrettable.
            From article to article the conclusion wanders: "... specialists need to be trained at home, reviving a full-fledged engineering school ..."
            Khrenushki, I'll tell you, just a point, Mr. Livanov and the "comrades" hid like an ambush regiment!
            General accessibility to the circles of pioneer houses, the inseparability of schools, technical schools and universities from production - and all will be happy)))
            No one except the state can organize this. Well, the Bologna system in our open spaces is not the birth of specialists, it is a complete miscarriage (it’s not for nothing that the pigeons in Bologna spoiled the whole university! I saw it myself! Probably ours!)
            1. +9
              14 September 2015 16: 39
              Reductor

              The fact that Mr. Livanov and his comrades intrigues is building it is half the trouble.

              The second trouble is that they do not want to raise their engineer in the factories themselves and it is precisely saving the budget.
              In reality, there is a fresh graduate, but he has no experience. They will not take him to work as a full-fledged one, which is logical. But to take a young one, then they will give him a meager salary that he will not be able to create a family, and there are no prospects. Therefore, the youth does not invest their life time in unemployment.

              I say that fundamentally the system needs to be changed. The laws.
              1. +7
                14 September 2015 19: 16
                Thanks to the one who meant the principle: "the market knows better what it needs!" - as the basis for state building. The daughter of this "that" is now in the Odessa region in Mishiko's assistants.
            2. 0
              15 September 2015 06: 38
              ... the problem is not only this .... I approached the "engineer" - I have an idea, let's move together, in response, will you pay? ..... fool
        2. 0
          14 September 2015 19: 09
          This is true!
          I wanted to answer the previous comment - but you answered both fully and fully!
          Everything to the point - neither add nor decrease!
      2. Cat
        +2
        14 September 2015 13: 15
        Of course, all the best shots at the root (even from the 3rd year) were hammered in by the defense industry. And from the point of view of a student of a technical university, getting a job at a "mailbox" was not at all the same as at an ordinary plant. I know this from myself.
        1. +4
          14 September 2015 17: 01
          Cat.

          Why defense?

          Because it is a state. In which the planning elements are preserved. They invest in a new generation of engineers and there is a continuity system.

          Small and medium-sized private companies are not able to afford the luxury to grow their own. They are ready to take an experienced but on a small salary. With a career promise, just what is a hidden lie. Salaries never grow referring to difficulties. But the load on the person is growing. The reason is simple. If once you got in touch with one boss, your career depends on him, and this is a slave system that limits your choice, especially if it is a production in a small town.
    2. +110
      14 September 2015 06: 31
      We change the region from "All Russia" or "Moscow" to, say, "Novosibirsk region" and, lo and behold, the proposed salaries in vacancies are from 7 rubles to 750 thousand rubles. average.
      Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.
      Tell me, dear, na-hua person who has given additional studies and the desire for the heights of knowledge, get a job as a janitor? am Why cram physics, sopromat, thermal bath, hydraulics, etc., if he has an average ceiling installed in 25 tyr ??? fool
      As long as the attitude towards the engineer is like a cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economists and legal entities, and the country will hire "Frenchmen with Germans" ... sad
      1. +47
        14 September 2015 06: 47
        It is a pity that 100 pluses can not be put. I agree completely and completely.
        Plus the fact that the manager can go from company to company, only enriching your experience. And an engineer if he quits from one enterprise, then to another, an engineer at the same level, he is unlikely to get a job. In fact, piece goods, unique. sharpened for a certain specialization of production. And we remember how such hundreds were thrown over the threshold in 90's.
        1. +26
          14 September 2015 07: 06
          Quote: Zomanus
          And we remember how such hundreds were thrown over the threshold in the 90s.

          Well, so I ended up in America not from a good life, and I'm not alone. I didn’t want to trade in a stall or join a gang, but where else would an engineer go? But he was not one of the worst ones - in less than 5 years, not everyone has grown from a graduate to a leading designer. Now, even if I wanted to go back to the Kuhlmann, it would not work, all that I knew and knew how to restarted over the years. And, judging by what salaries are offered, nobody needs it.
          request
          1. +19
            14 September 2015 07: 58
            By the way, I agree about salaries. The manager, who, if it is easier to say the reseller, gets more than a specialist engineer! Manager does not create anything, unlike an engineer. Manager is just a stall. And the engineers were lowered. Nobody needs his knowledge. The maximum that would be responsible, the priest on duty.
            1. +16
              14 September 2015 08: 43
              Quote: klaus16
              Manager, which, if it’s easier to say, is a reseller,

              The manager in tsarist Russia was ... at the merchants, called - clerk...
            2. +13
              14 September 2015 10: 00
              Quote: klaus16
              And the engineers were lowered.

              Dropped back in Brezhnev’s times, if not in Khrushchev’s. I started with a salary of 110 rubles, in those days less was paid only to traders (well, really these would not be in poverty, and without a salary at all). And so the workers were paid much more. According to my late grandfather, also a mechanical engineer, under Stalin, our brother was valued, although the demand was also not weak. And then they raised salaries to everyone except engineers. I still remember Raikin’s Hochma that if there is no shortage, the merchandiser will be like simple engineer - Does this mean the prestige of engineering work in society?
              But it was interesting to work, and with interesting people whose conversation topics were not limited to what to drink after the shift.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +10
            14 September 2015 10: 26
            Quote: Nagan
            pa Now, even if I wanted to go back to the Kuhlmann, it would not work, all that I knew and knew how to restarted over the years.

            As far as I know, there is no drawing lesson at school now, labor lessons, in most cases, complete profanity, Lathes are like furniture. I talked with the abridged master from the technical school, now there are curators who are sitting in two, three groups. So, where did you see welding training, with 5 kg of electrodes per month? The authorities said, cursed, saying why so many. And with practice, this is a big problem, that is, it is not there as such. Machine park, 60s, barely alive.
            That's how engineers are actually being raised here. angry We have no connection between educational institutions and enterprises. All by itself, lives, so to speak, independently. Like in capitalism.
            1. +3
              14 September 2015 17: 21
              Sirocco.

              Here is your last phrase and gave the answer.
              "As in capitalism".

              So something is wrong with this cap. Does not give the correct installation.
              1. 0
                14 September 2015 20: 32
                Who would have doubted, except for the "defective" ...
          4. +5
            14 September 2015 11: 50

            Lucky you laughing
          5. +1
            14 September 2015 15: 44
            Well, the culman now still need to look! laughing
          6. +5
            14 September 2015 17: 16
            Revolver.

            I am also in your shoes. Everything you say is familiar to me. I really do what the hell knows, if only calmly and steadily.

            But. I can put an average enterprise for a couple of thousand people on its feet. There is still general knowledge, and if necessary even in a month I can raise a narrow specialization in any field. Mechanics, electronics or chemistry.
            There is simply no motivation. I know perfectly well what I will have to face in this or that area.

            But also the most important. Motivation is not only the blessings of life. In many ways, motivation also has other beginnings. This is ideology, stability, perspective.
        2. +2
          14 September 2015 13: 15
          I do not agree with you, in the current situation (lack of highly qualified specialists), the transfer to another enterprise, as a rule, leads to an increase in salary and position. fellow Believe me, I know what I'm writing about. In energy, at least this happens. Firms have more directors who understand that HIGH-QUALITY cadres decide EVERYTHING !! lol
          1. +3
            14 September 2015 18: 09
            ingener1966

            Right. Tighten the owner can only be dismissal. But your independence depends on the availability of work within reach. And you always need to consider that the awl for soap do not change. And here you will learn about this by eating a pound of dashing in a new place. And your boss knows that too.

            And what about those people who do not want to be slaves in the outback? The logical answer is moving. Moving to? That's right, in industrial centers where there is work. So what?

            And rightly so. Unemployment is growing. Housing is getting more expensive. And who makes money? Definitely not you.

            In short, why. All your problems come down to one. To the basic law. Since the adoption of the nationally-oriented fundamental law, in a year there will be an industrial upsurge.
          2. +1
            14 September 2015 20: 58
            Attention!
            There are more and more directors (who understand), only fewer companies (in which there are such directors) —that is what the article is about.
          3. sq
            0
            15 September 2015 08: 16
            Quote: ingener1966
            Firms have more directors who understand that HIGH-CLASS cadres decide EVERYTHING!

            few of them, very few, of thousands
      2. +34
        14 September 2015 08: 14
        In Saratov, salary engineer in the region from 15 to 20 thousand rubles. just do not train engineers now. Universities graduate undergraduates. This year in SSTU was the last graduation of ENGINEERS full-time specialists. Specialists who can still be taught are being reduced. All attempts to raise the topic in local media are futile. Historians, philosophers, and managers are appointed in the place of normal leaders in the SSTU. Yesterday's secretaries and Ph.D. from other universities, but with very big ambitions. The vice-rector for educational work, in color, says that what for does not need student training, but only the rating, reporting and how many students will participate in the exhibition and / or competitions. Ksk engineers? Where do they come from in this situation? At the former faculty of mechanics, for example, there remained the only specialist in metal cutting machines, doctor of technical sciences, professor, member of the scientific council. So from September 1st, they did not even give him a 0,25 bet. So, there’s no one to teach the handling of machines here. And such an example is not the same, unfortunately .....
        1. +13
          14 September 2015 09: 14
          Quote: I am
          Universities graduate undergraduates.

          Absolutely right! Government policy aimed at training even from talented guys, gray and poorly educated masses is doing its job. Already from the 70s and 80s, education began to fall in quality lower and lower, but even the graduate of the 80s, the three-year-old, was much more literate and his knowledge was more thorough, more fundamental than those that are now given in universities . It is safe to say that we buried the educational system in the country. And what could be import substitution in general if industry does not really work the way it should work in a country rich in resources, labor and huge potential? If Chinese bullshit is cheaper and easier to buy than producing in your own country?
        2. +11
          14 September 2015 09: 52
          The industry orders specialists. If there is no industry, specialists are not needed either. Then you will need it, as always we will "give birth in pain". It is so accepted with us.
        3. +1
          14 September 2015 16: 08
          Quote: I am
          Universities graduate undergraduates. This year in SSTU was the last graduation of ENGINEERS full-time specialists.

          I disagree with you about the half-educated bachelors. I graduated this year with those last engineers "Specialists". And we didn’t give them any bachelor's degrees in terms of diploma theses and general preparedness in specialization. During the entire period of studying with our bachelors there was one unknown, since we were the first bachelors of a clear plan of study. Therefore, we had to read teachers as well as "specialists". Even when the diploma was written, there was no clear date and order of delivery. And they gave me a month and a half for my thesis. I had to spin because the volume in comparison with specialists who have half a year for their thesis! not significantly reduced. As a result, the volume of my thesis exceeded the analogous diploma of a specialist. Our group defended by five. One of the members of the state commission was the minister for the development of youth policy, who noted that we are the first bachelors in great demand and work and knowledge, we have good jobs. And as the practice of jobs in our region has shown, my specialty can be counted on the fingers of one hand and everyone needs "specialists" with 3-5 years of experience. And even I, who during my studies managed to find a job by profession, worked for 1.5 years in my specialty and graduated in June this month, no one needs it.
          And this is all because of the inscription Bachelor in the diploma.
          1. +8
            14 September 2015 16: 29
            You are sorry, but by the number of grammatical errors in your comment, I have a not very good impression of bachelors.
            1. +1
              14 September 2015 18: 12
              All because I am Mongol and Russian is my second native language. Therefore, I can afford grammatical and punctuation errors.
              1. +1
                14 September 2015 19: 04
                Quote: Majestik
                Therefore, I can afford grammatical and punctuation errors.

                It’s bad that you think so. It’s bad that the university considered that you can teach you a specialty without teaching the Russian language in full.

                By the way, if a student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights smile Therefore, it does not matter 1,5 of the month he was given or six months ...
                1. 0
                  14 September 2015 20: 12
                  Quote: bot.su
                  Quote: Majestik
                  Therefore, I can afford grammatical and punctuation errors.

                  By the way, if a student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights smile Therefore, it does not matter 1,5 of the month he was given or six months ...

                  In our case, it mattered since we studied before May 1 and, accordingly, the load was high compared to specialists.
                  Unfortunately, the topic of my thesis did not allow him to write sleepless nights for two weeks. sad
                2. +1
                  14 September 2015 21: 05
                  Quote: bot.su
                  if the student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights
                  This is not found in every university. In most universities, they sleep like marmots, because their parents have already given them 20 thousand rubles, which they paid for a diploma to a copywriter, a specialist who writes to order work from a student test to a dissertation. Around universities, usually all pillars and fences are hung with advertisements with similar proposals. The poor program for checking the originality of the text "Antiplagiat" is easily bypassed using simple lexical and grammatical manipulations at a price of almost 8 rubles per page of text.
                  1. 0
                    15 September 2015 09: 45
                    Quote: Stanislav
                    . In most universities, they sleep like marmots, because their parents have already given them 20 thousand rubles, which they paid for a diploma to a copywriter, a specialist who writes a job order from a student control to a dissertation.

                    Well, this is still more part-time students use.
                    1. 0
                      15 September 2015 10: 43
                      Quote: bot.su
                      this is still more part-time students use
                      I have different statistics: most full-time students and almost all (with the rarest exceptions) external students. hi
                3. +3
                  14 September 2015 21: 39
                  Quote: bot.su


                  By the way, if a student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights smile Therefore, it does not matter 1,5 of the month he was given or six months ...

                  Until four in the morning he drew before surrender. Then dreamed for years, bastard. (Type that did not pass) am PS In 92 I handed over.
          2. 0
            14 September 2015 20: 48
            rarely, but aptly. more of these
      3. +21
        14 September 2015 08: 16
        I agree completely. Personally, I, having a "tower" from a university from the top ten rating of the country, work as a hard worker (adjuster of CNC machines). I refuse proposals to go to engineering and technical staff. The salary of a good (writing, who understands) CNC adjuster is twice as great as the salary of the master. And I have to feed and teach children ...
        1. +19
          14 September 2015 09: 46
          Quote: vch62388
          I reject the offers to go to engineering; s / n good (writing, who understands) the CNC installer is twice the salary of the master

          You live richly, in our production it is different .. We have a designer, he is a technologist, he is a CNC programmer and also managers from the "upper" echelon turn their heads back. The salary of machine operators will be higher than mine .. Health does not allow for the machine ..
          P.S. Dumber than "effective managers" I have never met anyone, well, except for a snail .. And after all, the brain is taken out at a planning meeting, and you try to explain that the wall of a pressure vessel should be 30mm and he does not care about the calculation in the trade wind - do you see when budgeting a product with he does not want to confess the amount of current flowed ... Deb.i.ly bl ......
          1. sq
            +1
            15 September 2015 08: 23
            Quote: ziqzaq
            spit on his hair

            It’s painfully familiar, plus it’s still beginning to learn how to count, it’s just a VERY big desire to embed it in a brazen, fat, dull face, but ....
      4. +14
        14 September 2015 08: 39
        Quote: nebalagur
        As long as the attitude towards the engineer is like cattle, until then there will be no engineers ... and the country will hire "French and Germans" ... sad

        ... which are not much better than "managers" and te teh ...
        That's right - the problem clearly and firmly rests on the salary: a state official who, sorry to Roskompozor, does not do any h.i.N., has all sorts of different benefits for this, a big, big salary (which is often to himself and appoints), bribes in the same place ... steals again ...
        And foreign "engineers" - swam, we know: they worked with them! Knowledge - yes! available ... within a paid competency! but - not higher ... and not to the sides ... Initiatives - God forbid! strictly according to the instructions written (not to the table, be it said) almost in the US State Department! ...
        The western style of work and creativity - and such, namely, creative, is to a large extent engineering work - not for our country!
        The perestroika-liberal propaganda also played its role: managers, lawyers and other riffraffs flooded production; the engineer became just an object of satire and ridicule, many "moved" to the stage, to "journalism" - there are all kinds of anal-itics and other political science ... And these "bubble-making industries" have their own not very pleasant laws and unwritten rules ... deforming the human essence into the state of a cute and cute four-armed gibbon-type grabber ...
        We have to admit: one of the results of "perestroika" and liberalization is the loss of the engineering corps of the USSR, the indisputable and triumphant victory of the West, won in the war with Russia! and restoring it is a big problem, and for a long time ...
      5. -5
        14 September 2015 09: 36
        A few years ago they showed a story about the city of Gus-Khrustalny, about the factories of glass molding there. Some German, from the descendants of the first creators of the plant, decided to restore production (with VERY good salaries for those times and for such a city - workers and craftsmen 40-60 tr., Engineers - 80-100 tr.). NOBODY came !!! Explanations: on a fig, it forces to WORK - without truancy, without drinking, with the regulated breaks ... He suffered a year and a half, and left with nothing.
        So, treating an engineer as a person does not guarantee anything.
        "You first give me a GOOD salary, and then I'll think about it!"
        If a person is ABLE to work (and work well), then he will work like that at any salary (otherwise he simply doesn’t succeed). And if he doesn’t, no salary will correct him!
        1. +12
          14 September 2015 11: 59
          Quote: Evgeniy-111
          A few years ago they showed a story about the city of Gus-Khrustalny, about the factories of glass molding there. Some German, from the descendants of the first creators of the plant, decided to restore production (with VERY good salaries for those times and for such a city - workers and craftsmen 40-60 tr., Engineers - 80-100 tr.). NOBODY came !!! Explanations: on a fig, it forces to WORK - without truancy, without drinking, with the regulated breaks ... He suffered a year and a half, and left with nothing.

          Something I do not believe in this story, especially since they showed me on the box. From the Vanka-do series - ak or Emelya on the stove. Some kind of propaganda. In Moscow, you’ll find such a salary in production, but here Gus-Khrustalny is a deep province — and no one came for a salary of 100 thousand! Yes, people are ready to hell knows what to do in order to earn 40-50! Lies is pure water! In our country, a production company to keep this, in principle, is unprofitable, and to pay such salaries to people - is this at a loss? Where to get the money? Rent, communal services, machine tools and equipment, raw materials, salaries, taxes, kickbacks, etc. The cost of production will be ten times greater than its sales value. Probably, the people do not do --- ak. I did not believe in such fantastic salaries. So no one came. Already, I guess, passed, they know.
          1. +3
            14 September 2015 12: 31
            ..... In Moscow, at the factory, you’ll find such a salary ....


            .... And sho ????? .... At the MASHKVA STATE light wedged down ???? ..... I remember the times when in the province there were salaries at one aircraft factory - but you never dreamed of !!! !! .... Hard workers on riveting - from 500 to 800 rubles, a machine operator of 6 category to 1000 rubles, and engineers from 500 rubles. in the workshop up to 1200r in the department of the Civil Code .... hi... And this is with the country's average about 200 rubles ....
            1. +4
              14 September 2015 14: 31
              Quote: aleks 62 next
              .... And sho ????? .... At the MASHKVA STATE light wedged down ???? ..... I remember the times when in the province there were salaries at one aircraft factory - but you never dreamed of !!! !! ....

              And sho? ....... And I remember. Only about that and speech that now are other times. And in "STATE MASHKVA" the salary is the highest in the country, that's why it has already become a "STATE". People from all over the country come here to earn money. And even more from Transcaucasia and Central Asia. Moscow will soon expand to Ryazan and Smolensk. And in the times you are talking about, salaries were uniform across industries throughout the country. And people could earn where they live. The only exception was the Far North.
      6. -8
        14 September 2015 09: 49
        Yes, managers with everyone else on the periphery also get a little, but it’s more difficult for them to get settled than engineers.
        1. +1
          14 September 2015 20: 17
          And who and why does not agree then? Like a crisis, managers are reduced with a broom, because there is an abundance of them. But you cannot expel an intelligent welder, there may not be another one.
      7. +6
        14 September 2015 10: 40
        On the other hand, the deputies (charlatans in fact) row money with officials with a shovel. You will be looking for officials with a salary of 50 tr for a long time. Their pay starts from 200-250 and up to infinity, plus they have to steal something else. So count how much money remains in the budget for the salaries of mere mortals. In Kaluga and in our region, Artamonov boasted an average salary of 50 tr. And if you run around schools, hospitals, kindergartens, then the reality is completely different. 17-25 thousand rubles this is happiness. And now he won the elections again. So think now, whether people have become dull at once, or whether we have "effective" managers everywhere instead of engineers.
      8. +4
        14 September 2015 11: 52
        Quote: nebalagur
        until these very engineers there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economies and jurisdictions


        Alexander, albeit rudely said, but how accurate and capacious. You are well done.
        Let me add a little of myself.
        The worst thing is that the experts indicated by Sasha occupy almost completely a managerial niche called THE GOVERNMENT OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION, and I do not exaggerate much, type in the search engine a full name marked with education and ..., Zadornov is resting.
        Here it is like that.
        (All of the above does not apply only to Mr. Lavrov)
      9. +7
        14 September 2015 12: 41
        Quote: nebalagur
        As long as the attitude towards the engineer is like a cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economists and legal entities, and the country will hire "Frenchmen with Germans" ...

        Neither reduce nor add.
        And the manager, what can I say, Here is his daily routine:
      10. 0
        14 September 2015 13: 00
        will hire, not only 25 tyr but 25 tevr each.
      11. +7
        14 September 2015 15: 39
        Quote: nebalagur
        We change the region from "All Russia" or "Moscow" to, say, "Novosibirsk region" and, lo and behold, the proposed salaries in vacancies are from 7 rubles to 750 thousand rubles. average.
        Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.
        Tell me, dear, na-hua person who has given additional studies and the desire for the heights of knowledge, get a job as a janitor? am Why cram physics, sopromat, thermal bath, hydraulics, etc., if he has an average ceiling installed in 25 tyr ??? fool
        As long as the attitude towards the engineer is like a cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economists and legal entities, and the country will hire "Frenchmen with Germans" ... sad

        It is this question that is the main one in the problem, you are right. Becoming an engineer is hellishly difficult. And being an engineer is poverty! Moreover, poverty, despised and hated! The situation at first glance is fantastic, but when you look terrifyingly ...
        For the growth and development of the country, its engineers must manage its productive forces. But this is - the collapse and alteration of the entire, completely entire currently existing system! We have plenty in the control of bandits and murderers. Enough of scammers. And all sorts of sons, daughters, granddaughters, members of clans, sing along with lizins. What about the engineers? But no. There is no place for them in this wonderful company.
        Long-term education. And if you bought at least one exam, at least one test - you are no longer an engineer. Why, the song is separate, but it is respected clearly. Then work, hard, exhausting ... a set of experience. Even if the son-daughter-nephew received an engineering diploma, he is so linden, that’s all.
        The current system is designed for sharing cash flows. And they somehow forgot about their generation ... they say oil and gas will forever give us money. Our business is to blow that money more beautifully ... Another time has come. And these people. Poorly...
      12. +3
        14 September 2015 17: 07
        nebalagur.

        And how do you think to increase the level of profitability of production if production is at the very bottom of the "food" chain.

        Let me remind you at the top who? That's right, the profitable banking system. Then who? Service sector. And below are the production workers.

        Therefore, laws must be changed. Starting from?

        Right.
      13. +3
        14 September 2015 20: 07
        Quote: nebalagur
        Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.

        You will set engineers a salary at least at the level of the American unemployment benefit ($ 600 per week) for a young specialist, with a salary increase proportional to career growth, and there will be no end to those wishing to enter engineering specialties in the coming year. True, for the selection of suitable ones, it will be necessary, regardless of the exam, to enter entrance exams, well, at least copy the old Soviet ones.
        For that kind of money, pensioners may also want to shake the old days, and those who have left to trade in stalls may even come back with some departures. And the quality of work will be ensured by the salary - no one wants to lose it, everyone will plow like bobiks, and whoever can’t do it - go to the stall.
        But where to get the money? what Well, "effective" managers will have to cut themselves good in order to fit into the budget, but will they go for it? No.
    3. +7
      14 September 2015 08: 44
      Quote: Kibalchish
      that engineers are not needed, but the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is a rarity.


      A simple technologist and a competent master have long been in short supply ...
      1. +5
        14 September 2015 12: 40
        Yes, a turner, a milling machine operator and a welder (normal) have long been in short supply, they have profiled not only higher, but also secondary technical education ...
        1. +11
          14 September 2015 13: 28
          Quote: Evgen1964
          Yes, a turner, a milling machine operator and a welder (normal) have long been in short supply, they have profiled not only higher, but also secondary technical education ...

          Constantly in the ads I read: "Turners, milling cutters, locksmiths are required..., Etc. with work experience, grade not lower..., Salary of stopizzot, etc."
          I come to be hired, the owner - well, 25 years maximum:
          - Who are you?
          - Turner.
          - How old are you?
          - 50.
          - Nah, the young ones aren’t managed, but you can’t make any money here.

          I ask you to look at the equipment and what kind of work is there. I go to the shop: my mother is dear! But here Schwarzenegger will be bent in a year! Indoors 150 sq. meters there are 18 different machines, brought from no one knows what trash heap, arranged anyhow, there is cleaning and welding, they immediately wash with gasoline (!) and sort out some gearboxes, hydraulics, in the corner of the "shop" they are painted. Horror! among all this splendor, besides other scurrying workers, there are as many as 2 young turners (the old ones piled up) with an important look (one of them still turned 20 M18 bolts before lunch, hmmm!) and a whole milling machine. To set up gear hobbing and gear shaping, they invite a "specialist" from the outside, who "calculates" for them the guitars of the division and differential chains for 2-3 days (engineers and old workers will understand).
          Pichalka!
          1. 0
            14 September 2015 13: 58
            Found what to compare ...
          2. +2
            14 September 2015 19: 14
            Scoundrel.

            Smiled. The familiar picture. I saw the country.

            Poor organization of labor, an international problem.
            1. +9
              14 September 2015 20: 19
              Quote: gladcu2
              Smiled. The familiar picture. I saw the country.
              Poor organization of labor, an international problem.

              It is also about the fact that I, due to experience, have done this young "once". And in terms of performance and quality. And a day later he started hobbing, the owner went crazy, realizing that he was bred. True, after 3 months I left, the boss turned out to be a miser, 15 thousand maximum. They are mainly engaged in repairs, this requires serious practice and knowledge (I mostly worked in repair services and in pilot production, where the work is very diverse, I learned on the go from masters of Soviet hardening). Managers do not understand that there should be experienced workers next to the young guys, as we called them at one time - "grandfathers", so that there was someone to tell if anything. And here the locksmiths do not know how to choose a drill for a thread. not to mention how to sharpen correctly, they believe that the work of a locksmith is to turn the nuts and hammer with a sledgehammer. A good, competent worker means years of practice and obtaining theoretical knowledge (required!), No easier than becoming a good engineer or doctor. hi
              1. +1
                15 September 2015 01: 21
                Quote: villain
                I, due to the experience, have done this young thing "once". And in terms of performance and quality.
                And why doesn’t it surprise me?
                Quote: villain
                the chef turned out to be a miser, 15 thousand maximum.
                In America, too. At a large enterprise, a skilled machine operator makes about $ 60K per year at the end of his career, and this does not include overtime and union benefits. But such works, the farther the less, and they are thieves - the workers are trying to arrange their children-nephews at the plant, and the trade unions are helping them in this. And in small companies they pay almost half, and the benefits are by no means unionized. And the owner can be understood - he takes it out of his pocket. By the way, with engineering positions it’s about the same - you’ll get a hell out of large enterprises, but small ones don’t pay. That’s why I spat on everything and went to programmers - the office is not a workshop, the responsibility is much less - the program even if it crashes, it will not crush anyone, and the salary of the flight received in more than one and a half times more. He left a long time ago, in the last century. So now even the engineer’s work will turn up - I won’t pull it, I restarted everything.
                1. +1
                  15 September 2015 12: 09
                  Quote: Nagan
                  And why doesn’t it surprise me?

                  I just love my job, almost a fanatic. Prior to that, I tried a number of professions, worked as a pressman, as a rope operator, as a radio equipment adjuster, after the army I worked in a leshoz and a thermal train, and then I saw how turners work. I got up to the machine, after 2 weeks I passed it to the 2nd category and it stuck.
                  But redneck is everywhere; my acquaintances from Germany told me the same thing.
        2. +10
          14 September 2015 13: 54
          Quote: Evgen1964
          Yes, a turner, a milling machine operator and a welder (normal) have long been in short supply, they have profiled not only higher, but also secondary technical education ...

          GDP said that it is necessary to "develop a concept of secondary vocational education." Maybe we should rename colleges and lyceums back to "heels" and "techies"? Maybe you don't need to develop anything? Is it stupid to remember the Soviet vocational schools?

          One year in 93 we had a chief installer from Spain, a young guy, at first he went broke that we used the theodolite without permission (we had to work, but he had a coffee break) - “a thin device, he says, there is no qualification, says "... Then he quickly calmed down when he learned that in our team of high-altitude assemblers of 18 people, five with higher education, two with incomplete higher education, three with a technical school, and the rest have a minimum of heels. And experience from 5 to 20 years. And he has a "college" and three months of internship ... I didn't blather anymore, the show-off flew off ...
    4. +5
      14 September 2015 08: 59
      For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it.


      Upon retirement, you yourself will understand why no one wants to go to engineers (pensions for public services are accrued and paid, well, much higher than ordinary engineers, sort of like yasak for loyalty that did not run to the West).
      1. +3
        14 September 2015 19: 18
        I hope not to live up to retirement.
        And if you have to. That is the minimum. If my state will be preserved by that time, though in the form as it is now.

        By the way, a good country and decent people.
    5. +6
      14 September 2015 10: 32
      Find from old stocks. Perhaps they wanted to say so. There is nothing even to say about new engineering personnel, they simply are not. No, not only because no one wants to study as engineers. They also do not exist because their training is zero, with the current education system. We will soon be able to construct nothing except scrap and shovels.
    6. +2
      14 September 2015 12: 15
      ..... For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is very rare ....

      .... It is all right .... Only engineers are not particularly needed - judging by the salaries (at least in our region) .... To turn their brains for 25 thousand (who can, but mostly it is "old" hardening) and with a bunch of responsibility there are not especially those who want to ... Why ???? .... Buy - sell a lot more income brings, how sad ... As long as this situation is - nothing good will be ... ... request .... And "specialists" - in bulk !!!! .... Even in the diploma they write - SPECIALIST !!!! ..... laughing
    7. +4
      14 September 2015 13: 41
      Quote: Kibalchish
      For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it.

      Last year, in our city, a branch of a Moscow pedagogical (!) University accepted the first year of 200 (!) People to a legal (!) Department from Ingushetia (!). I am not against the Ingush, not against lawyers studying at a pedagogical university. But! We on the Volga in the center of Russia only 200 Ingush lawyers and not enough, everything else is.

      Yes, I forgot to write - the department, of course, is paid. And the semester is like three years on correctional pedagogy ...
      1. +2
        14 September 2015 19: 11
        Yes, an ordinary money-laundering. Nobody will be taught anything, and they will pay a fee. If dad then attaches by profession, it’s good, and so will the next guard-loader.
        1. +2
          14 September 2015 20: 04
          Quote: marlin1203
          They will not teach anyone anything, but they will charge. If dad then settles down by profession, it’s good, and it will be so next guard loader.
          About the fact that these unfortunate lawyers will not be taught anything - I agree on 200% - they are not required to learn, they are required to pay for training. But about the movers ... You missed the word "Ingushetia". Yes, yes, the one about which the GDP said today that there are big social problems, that money is thrown into it, but the sense is not visible ... Where in the republic, which 30 years ago forgot what industry is, money for training its "hundred-point-markers" "who cannot write in Russian? That's just "from there". Have you seen cottages in Ingushetia? Our gypsies do not build such people on drugs. And they will not go with diplomas to Ingushetia. There, for the whole Ingushetia 200 lawyers have nowhere to go. Again, for bribes from the same money that GDP is looking for all day today, they will go to bread jobs in our own prosecutor's office ...
    8. +6
      14 September 2015 15: 08
      If the management is entirely lawyers, then where will the technological breakthrough come from? Of course, everyone is eager for the civil service - it is warm and promising there. A thick oil pocket will cover all corruption unprofessionalism. And if the prime minister is a city dweller, then where should he look into the problems of the village. And if a lawyer, then, respectively, in engineering problems.
      That's just in addition to shouting about import substitution, an investment resource had to be directed to the development of our science and technology back in the fat oil years, and not to buy Peregrine Falcons from Siemens, sending their own falcon to the dump.
    9. +1
      14 September 2015 16: 35
      The fact that we (Russia) are experiencing serious problems with our own engineering potential is evidenced by the information of the All-Russian database of vacancies “Work in Russia”. The page contains a group of vacancies
      for engineers. And this is one of those groups that continues to expand actively.
      there is no visible interest of the state in this segment of engineering and technology ... there is a reduction, in vocational schools, hairdressers, makeup artists (apparently vacancies for pederasts), cooks and electricians, as an appendage. all.
    10. 0
      14 September 2015 20: 35
      To make matters worse, there are no vocational schools in the country for 20 years. Accordingly, there are no skilled workers. And nowhere to take them.
    11. 0
      14 September 2015 21: 08
      alas, not 15 but much more. since the beginning of perestroika. and even a little earlier.
    12. +1
      14 September 2015 23: 07
      Quote: Kibalchish
      For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is a rarity.

      The problem is that the salary of an ordinary manager and an ordinary engineer is about the same, in the military it seems to be even less.
      But the responsibility of an engineer is higher than the roof, you need to learn constantly by raising your qualifications, there are many times more mental stress, but the salary is like that of a manager. The question is why go to an engineer if you can trade for the same salary?
  2. +3
    14 September 2015 06: 20
    The ancient Russian name for an engineer is meaning. A man who is obliged to think.
    1. +2
      14 September 2015 06: 44
      Yes, he should not reflect, but first of all, know, understand and be able to. And only then - to reflect on how to perform this or that.
      1. +1
        14 September 2015 08: 28
        In your opinion - Lyapi somehow! ... what to do now? Thought must be ahead of action.
        1. +2
          14 September 2015 08: 38
          In my opinion, you need to carefully read what they write, understanding this. That would not lyaplyat stupid things.
          And that’s exactly what if a person thinks and starts to do something, not understanding the essence of what he thinks and the principles of what he does, it turns out the devil knows what.
          A person must initially understand what he is doing or trying to do. To be trained in this, to understand in this matter, and ideally to have experience. And on the basis of all of the above, only then think how to perform this or that and, to perform some kind of action.
          Well, chewed. It is intelligible or again not understood? )))
          1. +1
            14 September 2015 16: 02
            Funny! In wrapped up!
            It’s hard to understand without thinking
            I do it without thinking because I know
            how to be trained without experience
            Well, this construction is clearly from five-dimensional space:And that’s exactly what if a person thinks and starts to do something, not understanding the essence of what he thinks and the principles of what he does, it turns out the devil knows what.
            After this, I want to quietly sit in a corner before retiring not to climb out)))
            1. 0
              14 September 2015 21: 49
              Well, alas, you also misunderstood simple thoughts. )))
              You need to think !!! Without the work of the brain, well, nothing at all.
              The essence was different.
              I’ll try to explain again. With a hypothetical example.
              Suppose there are two people who have received the same task. Well, I don’t know, well, let the task be to build a water mill.
              Next.
              One of these two never engaged in anything similar, well, except that I saw in the picture what this or that similar design looks like.
              The second one knows how to do this, or already had experience building such structures.
              Both include MOSH and ... think how to do it.
              And now you think, which of them will build a working mill faster, easier, more reliable and fully working?
              In my opinion, the answer is obvious. The second, since he knows how to do it. And of course they will both think. )))
              Do you feel the difference in action and implementation?
              Differences in thoughts will not concern. ))))
              1. 0
                15 September 2015 08: 52
                Yes, that's not a fact!
                Sometimes detachment from a generally accepted school, a fresh, unintentional look gives rise to original, breakthrough, revolutionary decisions.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        14 September 2015 21: 54
        Quote: Glot
        Yes, he should not reflect, but first of all, know, understand and be able to
        Ingenium is translated from Latin exactly as "mind". An engineer is literally a thinker, an inventor, but a technologist only needs to know, understand and be able to. An engineer is a technologist + engineering thinking, which, unfortunately, is rarely observed.
  3. +1
    14 September 2015 06: 33
    Not only to ponder, but also to make decisions.
    1. 0
      15 September 2015 08: 39
      Quote: bulat
      Not only to think, but also to make decisions
      Why are you sharing this process? To meditate (not to fantasize, namely to meditate) means to find arguments pros and cons of any decision. If reflection leads you to recognition need of this, and not another solution, then you simply act as needed. Arguments are what "brings" a person to the decision to act this way and not otherwise (option: to assert one thing and deny the opposite). Another thing is the execution of a decision taken on reflection. Here, new circumstances may appear that impede execution, which, in turn, are able to "restart" the thinking process (if new arguments appear), or require a noticeable volitional effort from a person to continue actions in this direction. Reflection is decision making.
  4. +6
    14 September 2015 06: 38
    Jobs then dohrena, but salaries and conditions somehow do not please and really worthy vacancies are few. So dear employers - it is necessary to take care of engineers, fight for them, and as they said above - get ordinary mechanics for such a salary.
  5. +2
    14 September 2015 06: 42
    We don’t find a young, good turner, a welder. All young people are guarded at best. Work for them too lazy. Whatever they learn, it is necessary to identify and develop abilities from childhood.
    1. +11
      14 September 2015 08: 46
      Quote: Alexander 3
      All young people at best protect whatsoever. They are too lazy to work. Whatever they learn, it is necessary to identify and develop abilities from childhood.

      Yes, do not be lazy to them to work! Just anyone is able to evaluate and compare the level labor costs и the size of the salary received for this work!
      1. -1
        15 September 2015 00: 21
        Quote: CONTROL
        Yes, do not be lazy to them to work! Just anyone is able to evaluate and compare the level of labor costs and the amount of salary received for this work!

        But for this we must also fight!
  6. +2
    14 September 2015 06: 42
    Quote: nebalagur
    We change the region from "All Russia" or "Moscow" to, say, "Novosibirsk region" and, lo and behold, the proposed salaries in vacancies are from 7 rubles to 750 thousand rubles. average.
    Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.
    Tell me, dear, na-hua person who has given additional studies and the desire for the heights of knowledge, get a job as a janitor? am Why cram physics, sopromat, thermal bath, hydraulics, etc., if he has an average ceiling installed in 25 tyr ??? fool
    As long as the attitude towards the engineer is like a cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economists and legal entities, and the country will hire "Frenchmen with Germans" ... sad

    I will add a little, in order to go "beyond the framework of" design and investment "of a drain pit at a summer cottage", you still need to design a drain pit. For general designers are not taken out of thin air.
  7. +9
    14 September 2015 06: 48
    The article is a definite plus. The author touched on the topic that is most relevant at the moment. The situation with the engineering staff is catastrophic. And there are many reasons for this. From the decline in the prestige of the profession from the middle of 80 to the fall in the level of secondary education ...
  8. +12
    14 September 2015 06: 48
    I face the problem of engineering personnel every single day. Well, we don’t have normal trained engineers. Do not cook. A graduate of a university comes, you ask him how this thing works, principle and theory (elementary thing, by the way) The answer is, I don’t know, we were not taught this. Here to shift the paper, put the paper in the copier, go to the Internet, so no problem, and the table is complicated. make a schedule, the relay is electrical-elementary, the cable to ring, I do not know. That's how we live. And most importantly, a sickly patch is offered, but they - we’d better go to a company that sells office equipment, or something else, but similar.
    1. +5
      14 September 2015 11: 41
      they become an engineer not at a university, but at an enterprise, gaining experience (if there is a knowledge base and desire), and experience is this time.
      1. 0
        14 September 2015 12: 43
        I completely agree ++++++
      2. 0
        14 September 2015 15: 30
        vova1973
        they’re not becoming an engineer at a university,


        .... fundamentally disagree !!! An engineer should leave the university, if not, write in a mechanic diploma with the basics of an engineer ...
        1. 0
          14 September 2015 19: 36
          EGOrkka

          Listen to what vova1973 tells you. He will not teach bad.
    2. +1
      14 September 2015 11: 42
      Yes, and someone should pass on the experience of succession
    3. +3
      14 September 2015 19: 30
      Signaler.

      How long have you been in the shoes of this graduate?

      No university graduate can answer how your moonshine with pedal drive works. Immediately and without careful inspection.

      But when a year or two he turns these pedals himself, then you will whine that young people are setting you up.
      Under the USSR, there was a term "young specialist". It meant "a monkey with a grant."
      Graduates need to be taught and taught. And having learned to protect.
  9. +8
    14 September 2015 07: 03
    I work "abroad", very successfully. In 2014 I tried to return, but unsuccessfully ... engineers are not needed, judging by the proposed salary, the employer's answer is standard: "What do you want ... the labor market is like that, and even taxes ...".
  10. +10
    14 September 2015 07: 07
    Engineers will soon die out as a class, as Institutes prepare bachelors and masters.
    1. +11
      14 September 2015 07: 32
      Institutes prepare "lapdogs", this Bologna system is not capable of more, I say as not the last person in my office (design bureau), on average, the ratio of Persians: down 1:20, belay and these "promising" ones have to be completed for at least a year and a half ... sad
      1. +6
        14 September 2015 08: 52
        Quote: nebalagur
        Institutes prepare "lapdogs", this Bologna system is not capable of more, I say as not the last person in my office (design bureau), on average, the ratio of Persians: down 1:20, belay and these "promising" ones have to be completed for at least a year and a half ... sad

        ... To which the reform of education, higher, secondary, was aimed - which, by the way, continues to function successfully (even vocational schools, almost completely dead, did not touch much); well, and "to the complete set" (or, but to the people - to the heap ...) the reform of the Russian Academy of Sciences and the whole, half-strangled science ...
      2. +2
        14 September 2015 20: 29
        Quote: nebalagur
        The institutes train "lapdogs", this Bologna system is not capable of more,

        Want to make the west fools? If you look in detail, this system was not invented by stupid people. The question is how perverted everything is in our reality. For example, internships generally turned into fiction. During practice, students cleaned the warehouse. What will the practice report be?
        More specifically, the drop in demand for knowledge led to the degradation of supply, and the system has nothing to do with it. And what caused it in the topic is painted in colors.
  11. +6
    14 September 2015 07: 28
    It is very difficult for a graduate to get a job, and not only for engineers. In our district hospital, the ENT worked as a half-wit grandmother, she was 82 years old, she could not be kicked out, they were young, but she immediately started scribbling blunders and the girls left. She grunted in her office about 2 months ago.
  12. +14
    14 September 2015 07: 35
    I have a diploma of a technologist, I planned to go to study at the institute as an engineer. But having worked on after graduation practice at the factory, he scored and went to the manager - I want to eat.
    Now I work and see a lot of "power engineers" who cannot even clearly explain what they need. Will come such a "dog that I need to know but I can not say!" It ends with the fact that they take the same thing that stood before, it doesn't matter what year of release, they photograph, shoot and put on a replacement, and from the photo they connect the wires.
    It is necessary for such people to look for junk that has long been discontinued and it is unclear how it works.
    If it comes to a project, it is usually done by a sales manager. He needs to sell something to him from the sales margin, so he thinks.
    And so we live, a power engineer from a factory who expresses his thoughts at the level of a street mug and a manager who is trying to understand what he needs. What does a deaf phone like you understand.
    1. +10
      14 September 2015 08: 05
      Quote: PALACH
      Now I work and see a lot of "power engineers" who cannot even clearly explain what they need.

      2002 guys came to our factory in 2. One was immediately appointed by hl. the mechanic of the workshop, the other- ch. power engineer. Ch. the mechanic cannot read blueprints properly and does not know the basics of metal processing, chap. the power engineer does not know how to pick up an electric motor for a 3-phase circuit, not to mention how to understand the circuits ... But the guys wanted to learn. I was attracted to exercise with ch. power engineer. Now one - beg. transport workshop, and the other - deputy. beg. one of the largest and most important workshops for the military commissar. Intelligent guys. Everything depends on the person.
      1. +4
        14 September 2015 09: 04
        Quote: wicked partisan
        2002 guys came to our factory in 2 .... But the guys wanted to learn. I was attracted to exercise with ch. power engineer. Now one - beg. transport workshop, and the other - deputy. beg. one of the largest and most important workshops for the military commissar. Intelligent guys. Everything depends on the person.

        Well, found "evil partisan"who has something to learn (and he wants, and - most importantly - he knows how to teach!); and guys with a "base" and a desire to learn ... But study presupposes some kind of self-restraint, exertion of forces, dedication ... This also requires "sanctions" both of oneself and external ones - money is needed! And if there is also a family, children ... and youth! (every normal young man should, and most importantly - really wants to! - get married ...)
        ... All this should come together, as in a "kerchief" ... how the card will fall (?!) Or maybe it's enough to play solitaire games, rely on "cards"? We have a state, or where? ...
      2. +2
        14 September 2015 20: 20
        golden partisan

        It is you who have now described the situation correctly.

        And yet, in universities they teach not only specializations, in universities they teach to study. And this is the difference between a narrow specialist and an engineer.
    2. +7
      14 September 2015 08: 09
      I agree. The reserve officer himself, I have been working as a power engineer for many years, self-taught. I meet with graduates from those. universities and just fucking awesome. Where is the knowledge that I would love to receive at the institute, but know it myself? They are not here. The only ones with whom you can still communicate on equal terms are the inspectors from Rosstekhnadzor. And the young do not pull, if not sad.
      1. +1
        14 September 2015 10: 37
        September 8.09 - working time, and you are already in the military review, good work.
        1. 0
          14 September 2015 12: 12
          Quote: provincial
          September 8.09 - working time, and you are already in the military review, good work.

          I can afford wink . Specificity, so to speak, allows feel .
  13. +4
    14 September 2015 07: 56
    Now an engineer outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg receives an average of 25. Having graduated the first year, I worked for 12 thousand rubles a month. Moreover, 1 person performs work for 3 different. Gained experience. Then he gradually changed his place of work several times. As a result, I got a job with an RFP 40k month. At the same time, now it’s easier to work as a simple manager while working. While the manager receives 45, and engineer 25, the situation will not change much. Education passed to masters and bachelors. Bachelor is an unlearned specialist. It's good that I managed to finish the university while still being an engineer (specialist).

    And here is what employers are offering now. There is something to ponder:

    A gold mining company is required storage system administrator. Work in the office. In the subject line, indicate the name of the vacancy FULLY
    Duties
    LAN Layout
    Installation and maintenance of video surveillance
    Computer hardware setup
    Acceptance at the warehouse, storage, movement and delivery from the warehouse of various material values: spare parts, parts, tools, etc.
    Inventory
    Moving wealth
    Requirements
    A confident PC user
    Knowledge 1C
    Ability to work in multitasking mode
    MANDATORY presence of l \ a
    1. +6
      14 September 2015 09: 28
      Quote: kebeskin
      system administrator-storekeeper.

      I need a worker:
      Cook, groom and carpenter.
      And where can I find this
      A minister is not too expensive?
      Pushkin
    2. +3
      14 September 2015 10: 53
      you probably forgot, responsibilities also include:
      Hadron Collider setup and maintenance
      cleaning in the director’s office

      wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat
    3. +1
      14 September 2015 18: 16
      An engineer came to us from South-Western State University 3 years ago (or rather, they found that they had promised, I don’t know) knows English, German and Italian. He was given a salary of 8 thousand (well, for a circle no more than 15). After 3 months he was "lured" to Stary Oskol. Our leadership was very sorry: "... we can say we found him in the garbage ...", but he ran away !!! A year later, I met him by chance. We talked ... A leading engineer at the enterprise, they gave an office apartment immediately (now I bought a three-ruble note on a mortgage) and a child in a kindergarten. With us, he would now receive no more than 15 and would work for 10 without any prospects. And you say the engineer is everywhere in the price.
    4. +2
      14 September 2015 20: 25
      System administrator storekeeper.

      Baba Dusya worked all her life as a storekeeper in a convoy 26. She found out what her workplace is called, got scared and quit.
  14. +4
    14 September 2015 07: 56
    The thing is that the company is trying to get the right to create and implement a project without having sufficient potentials. And as soon as such a right is obtained (suddenly) by it, throwing themselves from side to side, at least in terms of searching for qualified personnel who could do the design, will manifest themselves.
    How familiar is it ... It seems that the company has passed licensing, received a readiness certificate, and as soon as it is necessary to start work, the races to attract technicians, specialists, etc. begin. As a rule, all this ends with a postponement, a decrease in the quality of work ... Capitalism, what. The main thing is to win the tender, and then we'll figure it out ...
  15. +10
    14 September 2015 08: 02
    The engineering school of Russia urgently needs to be revived !!! And no matter how late it is ... In higher education, too, after all, Teachers are not immortals, and good not old cadres are "washed out" into the industry, where the pay is many times higher. And in the Ministry of Education and Science, a den of "tolerant liberals -" innovators "- pests" has formed, who continue to destroy higher education at an accelerated pace. Engineers leave industry for natural reasons, and replenishment of engineering personnel NO !!! This is a direct threat to the security and sovereignty of Russia! And so - everyone knows and understands everything, but things are still there ... Vladimir Vladimirovich, you wouldn’t care about the “Armats” now, but the engineering personnel who create these very “Armats” ...
  16. +29
    14 September 2015 08: 17
    Oh, come on - "full of engineering vacancies." What are these "vacancies"? I myself have personally recently walked around a fair number of enterprises in one large city in search of a more attractive place, so to speak. So what? Never mind. Everywhere required "not older than 35 years, with work experience" 10-15 years "and qualifications not lower than" site foreman "or" leading engineer ", etc." This is the first thing. Secondly, the salary does not exceed ... 20-30 thousand rubles. Even if the ad says that the salary is "from 40 thousand rubles", then in fact they tell you that the ad is "outdated", "has been hanging for a long time", "you know the crisis", "there will be such a salary, but then" and so on. And so far, 20-30 thousand rubles, but "officially" only 16-18 thousand. The rest is "premium". We know about the "awards", we have passed and are passing through. Now the third, immediately "they take the bull by the horns", they say: "keep in mind you will work under a contract-4-6 months minimum wage, such as a probationary period, plus internship, and then ... then no sick leave-maximum one week, vacation- two UNPAID weeks in winter and two UNPAID weeks in summer Don't like it? -There is the door. The fourth is a working day and duties ... and he is 8 hours, not including a lunch break, here and there is a working Saturday, duties - you start to find out it turns out you are going to work and for myself and “for that guy” it immediately becomes clear why people are “required” at this enterprise. In general, I remembered how, in not very old times, Mr. P. was eager for the presidency and presented himself as such a cool “industrial entrepreneur” type of everything achieved “on their own.” In those days they liked to show on TV the gatherings with this gentleman, in which he broadcast how well he worked at his enterprises and how all the workers would be awesome if he came to power. studied a puncture, in one program, a person who worked at one of his enterprises began to say not what they wrote to him, but what it really is - about the arbitrariness of managers, about low wages, about the lawlessness of bosses and the humiliated position of workers, etc. Well, word for word, and in the end, our master could not resist and blurted out: "Never !, You never hear, some drunk locksmith or engineer will never receive at my enterprises as much as my manager gets! Ideally, you should work for a bowl of chowder and be glad that it was not taken away! Unfortunately, this is not possible ... not yet possible. "
    1. +4
      14 September 2015 08: 31
      Well, let's say the "young" is paid a big salary, as it were, and for nothing. When else will he get involved in work and will he get involved at all? Here you are not here. In production, it can rain from acid or from alkali. Noisy, dirty and not fun at all. And I want a big salary right away and not to work too hard.

      Meanwhile, an engineer - he is the manager, by definition. The head. And this is where the hell is taught. Only in place, with specific people harnessed.
      1. +7
        14 September 2015 08: 57
        Well, let's say the "young" is paid a big salary, as it were, and for nothing.

        Correctly! Why the hell did he study for a specialist at a university up to 5-6 years old ?! But the waiter, delivering drinks, will receive 30000 + bonuses. Here it is justice!
        Ps Engineer is a very responsible profession, requiring knowledge of a large regulatory framework and continuous improvement.
      2. +6
        14 September 2015 12: 47
        Quote: RiverVV
        Meanwhile, an engineer - he is the manager, by definition. The head. And this is where the hell is taught. Only in place, with specific people harnessed.


        I will add a little.
        An engineer can turn out to be a good manager (examples of Korolev, Shipunov, Potkin, and many others). And it’s not just that an engineer, an intelligent fitter, will not come out of a manager.
        I don’t know, this is what needs to happen so that the "top" people realize that it is time not to produce unfinished managers, but to train and nurture full-fledged engineers. Moreover, life is already hitting the head with a wrench. And we all sit and wait, the year oil will rise in price again.
        1. -2
          14 September 2015 12: 58
          From a manager, an engineer may well turn out. It's all about the desire to work. When I was hired as an operator three years ago, I did not begin to read the instructions, but climbed onto the shelf to study the lines of the block. Two weeks later, the chief engineer called me and said: "We need a technologist." "But I don't know much yet, and in general I am an ammoniac, but here everything is new for me." "No e ... t!"
          Of course, you could refuse and get your twenty thousand. I would wash my special clothes every six months and go on vacation ...
          1. 0
            14 September 2015 13: 52
            I neighing, and why are you a technologist and know thoroughly the theory of materials and the processes that you are involved in, or just know how the technological equipment works well?
            1. +2
              14 September 2015 14: 45
              God have mercy! Who is stopping you to laugh? You can still pinch the grass.
            2. 0
              14 September 2015 20: 52
              Alex.

              But what is actually complicated. He read, appreciated in practice. It is not written in Latin there. Well, if in Latin. He sat down for 3 months, taught and read in Latin.

              Motivation is important.
    2. +4
      14 September 2015 10: 30
      This is the sad truth of our stupid and uneducated management, which takes revenge on the engineering corps. Because communication doesn’t work at work: on the part of managers, there is complete incompetence and unwillingness to delve into the process. Technicians are screened in every way from the ability to influence decision making. Nonsense, but this is so everywhere.
    3. +2
      14 September 2015 21: 01
      Of course, we are talking about engineers, but in agriculture it is even worse: salary of 10-12 thousand, six days. Sick leave? Yes, God forbid, because 3-4 thousand will remain from the salary in the best case. And at the same time, all the "drivers" whine that the youth "are lazy now and do not want to work."
    4. +3
      14 September 2015 21: 57
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      "Never !, you hear never, some drunk locksmith or engineer will never receive at my enterprises as much as my manager gets! Ideally, you should work for a bowl of stew and be glad that it was not taken away!"

      Well, Mr. P pompously promised to start car production. Not to trade in your favor with what the "gnomes dig up", but to start production. And what? The engineers worked out for him ... and he himself was blown away. It seemed like it was necessary to solve these very managerial tasks - to negotiate with future suppliers, build production and supply cycles ... I was blown away. Together with our managers.
      As it turned out, the former trade union is available three skills - to steal, share and issue skis. Everything. Mr. P is not capable of more, like everyone else. Dead end. No, he can kill someone, with the wrong hands and so that he will not be imprisoned. It also seems to be a skill ... but it somehow does not lead Russia out of the production deadlock. We got rid of the reforms, and shamefully got offended.
  17. +4
    14 September 2015 08: 46
    There will be a good salary, there will be engineers
  18. HAM
    +8
    14 September 2015 08: 51
    I am shocked by the current "engineers": remember, students of electrical engineering universities had a joke - HOW DOES THE TRANSFORMER WORK? "- U-U-U-U !!" So the joke turned into reality, unfortunately, few people can sensibly explain how does he still work .. I BELIEVE that all this is the fruit of various tests and the transition to Western teaching methods, which teach not to think, but to "manage".
    1. +8
      14 September 2015 09: 17
      Oh, this "Western type" of work, education, etc. The "test" training system in the West was introduced for one simple reason - to quickly train a NARROW specialist. You see, NARROW. That is, in the "west" specialists are very NARROW: yes, they know a lot and can do a lot, but in a very limited area and perform a very limited number of duties. And in our country this "narrow" training system has been applied from someone's "light hand" to specialists of a WIDE profile! That is, in the west, in the place where we have ONE engineer, there are usually 0-3, or even 4-5 engineers or specialists! A Western specialist, having come to us in Russia, just freaks out because of the fact that we are required of him to perform such a range of duties that they have performed by a whole group of engineers or specialists.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. HAM
        +1
        14 September 2015 10: 20
        Sorry, but what about the basic knowledge of mathematics, electro (heating technology), etc., because you DO NOT GET THESE TESTS!? An engineer is an engineer for that, to have FULL the idea of ​​the ongoing processes, and not to occupy "your sixth", there are technicians for this, although they are more competent than another engineer.
        1. +1
          14 September 2015 11: 40
          The fact is that "in the West" a lot of what "engineers" do in their positions is done by people with absolutely no engineering education, the so-called "specialists" - "Technicians" - this can be anyone, in mostly people who have just passed special training courses.
  19. +3
    14 September 2015 09: 28
    And this is one of those groups that continues to expand actively. At the time of preparation of the material, the all-Russian base provided more than 1600 engineering vacancies in Moscow alone. In all regions, the number of vacancies exceeded 16,2 thousand.


    Bench press in Ulyanovsk. Graduated from UlSTU in 2012. (Department of Radio Engineering). I work the Vedas. an engineer. Salary: 12 tr (salary) + 4 tr (premium for a month.) + 8 tr (part-time, repair printers at night or assemble (I design, order, assemble and test myself) on the side of the device for Muscovites) + 6t. (scholarship in graduate school) = 30 TR
    Costs: TR 15 (credit, mortgage 15 years), 3,5 tr (utility) = 18,5 tr
    Wife on maternity + child. 11,5 tr you cannot deny yourself anything. belay

    ps he who wants, he learns.
    1. -2
      14 September 2015 13: 41
      I advise you to do 1C, and score on all this engineering crap. There will be something to support his wife and child.
      Then you can learn EJB and life will succeed ...
      1. +1
        14 September 2015 22: 14
        I am a specialist for 1s, a former, alas, female engineer. IN TOPKA 1C !!!!! In the furnace stupidity !!!!!! Give a normal job ...... so no, and I have to buy myself everything beautiful to work with 1s, including ..... alas. but I don’t like it. I AM ABOUT DESIGNING COMPLEX TECHNOLOGICAL OBJECTS in T = FLEX, but besides exhibitions, nobody needs it request
  20. +6
    14 September 2015 09: 44
    ALL engineers start with school labor lessons and technical circles!
    Have the Trudovik men in schools left somewhere ?!
    And equipped technical circles?
    Young people simply DO NOT KNOW what technical CREATIVITY is !!!
    In Stavropol, we have 45 technology teachers left for 2 schools - men!
    And in the rest of the schools they teach maximum modeling and beadwork. The technical circle in the city (more or less way) remained ONE !!! For 450 thousand people.
    What import substitution is there! What will come to the university after sewing with a cross ?!
    1. 0
      14 September 2015 22: 15
      a philosophy of environmental issues with a social bias is what comes. crying
  21. +6
    14 September 2015 10: 04
    And by the way about the meneger. I made here one simple device for measuring the thermal conductivity of certain substances. The customer managed all this stuff (bp + controller board + cooling and heating system) with a salary of 100 tr (not only with my zp, of course, I also attracted a turner). I gave the device. Of course, I wrote my contact phone number in the instructions and how to contact me. About a month later, they called me from Penza (a customer from Moscow). Conversation:
    Caller - Hello, we bought your device.
    when turned on, the device generates a calibration error and refuses to work. And yes, there are strange dents on the case.
    I - and what kind of error is it that you and who do my device get to?
    the caller - we ordered this device in St. Petersburg in one LLC ....
    I - if not a secret, then how much did this device cost you under the contract?
    the caller - wait a second ..... under the contract, the development and implementation of this device was 450 tr
    I am - belay . send to Ulyanovsk at the address ....
    the caller - and why there, we in LLC .... bought
    I - I think that they will not be able to blacken it for you.
    the caller - I will try to call them and still make them take the costs
    ,,,,,,,,,,
    etc.

    in the end, when the device arrived back to us, I was amazed.
    в metal the device’s body had a through hole .... fool
    I would be surprised if it worked.

    The device was resold 3 times.
    and even the finished device could not be brought to the customer recourse . And we are talking about import substitution.
    The price rose 4,5 times. crying It's a shame, chees
    Bottom line: Menegerers are able to work with us (hands are only crooked)
  22. +1
    14 September 2015 10: 23
    The thing is that the company is trying to get the right to create and implement a project without having sufficient potentials. How she gets this right is no secret to anyone
  23. +2
    14 September 2015 10: 49
    What is there to be surprised, the whole neoliberal business comes down to a buy-sell situation, and everyone is used to selling anything, even if it becomes obvious that you are already selling what is someone else's property.
    But engineers must be taught, first specialties must be taught, then taught to work.
    Remember the Soviet times: while studying, a practitioner in a specialty, after graduation, distribution and three years was given to the former student to become a real engineer.
    It’s just that the law forbade the dismissal of young specialists for three years, but because the number of employees was limited by the staffing list, we had to include it in the work, and so engineers were raised (of course, enthusiasts always shared their experience, but not all of them).
    What we see now, a student comes to practice and does the work of an auxiliary worker, after the end of the practice, the problem is how to write a report if you have not received any knowledge? The most persistent and wealthy do not agree to work and collect the necessary materials, and they dismiss them as flies, but, having persisted, receive answers to questions, but not practical knowledge.
    After graduation, getting a job is a problem, everyone needs work experience, but in general an engineer does not need much, all hope for the purchase of high-quality equipment.
    I will give an example. The machine from the import line was defective, as the shop masters said, the problem was in the shaft. And, only when the son went through practice in this workshop, she learned that the type of connection was found in the equipment that did not correspond to the load, he counted and replaced it with another, though this remained in the graduation project.
    And the problem of finding a young specialist is the problem of why to keep specialists, because the equipment was purchased new from firms with a good recommendation, we can do without our specialists.
    But, when the equipment is purchased by efficient managers, they save on that part of the technological chain, due to the lack of which production becomes unprofitable. The company goes bankrupt, costs are huge, there is nothing to cover losses, the state does not receive taxes.
    These are the gifts presented by the liberal system of the economy, where everything is focused on making a profit here and now.
    1. +1
      14 September 2015 11: 00
      how to teach, how to teach? if you open any "murzilka" and there it is written in Russian in white:
      required: seller consultant- z.p. from 35t.r.
      it is required: the engineer the adjuster of the ChPU machine - zp from 15t.r.

      Face advertisement fellow have arrived !!!
  24. +5
    14 September 2015 10: 57
    While the engineer receives less than the seller of cell phones - nothing to talk about.
  25. +3
    14 September 2015 10: 59
    The system of our top is built only so that the top "earns" and receives kickbacks. Announce at least a five-year plan now, promise salaries, a return to the previous education system ... It is unlikely that anything will help when the redistribution of cash flows is the main thing in the system of government. Well, they will never go to jail - there is mutual responsibility.
  26. +2
    14 September 2015 11: 32
    If I were the "director of all Russia" ...

    I would order to create in each industries its domestic enterprise using exclusively domestic materials and technologies.

    Subsidized enterprises, but small ones. Therefore, it would not be worth the treasury too much money.

    It would be a kind of "seed fund" from which, if necessary, it would be possible to quickly grow a whole industry of real, not declared import substitution.

    For, there would be both proven technologies and relevant specialists. All that had to be done was to produce purely quantitative growth, and this, in the presence of the two components listed above, is very simple.

    PS. An engineer with extensive experience. I can, alone, make an entire device. With a full set of production documentation. To say that the quality of education of today's youth is depressing to say the least - not to say anything.

    Yes, it is understandable: the engineering corps systematically spread rot and "exterminated like a class." What is really there, if the Guarantor himself, "with a blue eye", admitted that in their government, during the EBN, "curators from the CIA" were openly (!).

    Humanities unleash wars, and techies win. Techies are getting smaller. A worthy replacement for myself, for now - I do not see ...
  27. +3
    14 September 2015 11: 39
    The main problem is not even wages and so on ... the problem is that "the connection of times has been broken" - the system of training both workers and engineers has been destroyed. Old people died out, who will teach?
    In the USSR, specialist training began with school, with the CPC. From my own experience, I remember how we mastered the profession of a lathe machine operator for two years, walked one day a week and stood at a machine shift. Each was assigned a master mentor. Even those who later did not find this useful — but poorly they taught poorly how to work with their hands and their heads. Again - the next step was vocational schools, then technical schools, then universities. It was not just engineers who trained, but practitioners.
    In our military school, apart from everyone else, there was such a discipline as "military repair" - that is, repair of aircraft in the field. They taught me how to rivet, cook, weave ropes ... This gave me good skills and understanding "through hands" how what works, works and interacts in such a complex object as a modern airplane.
    Alas, now this very practical aspect has almost completely disappeared from our lives. Young people come who do not really know the theory, and on the topic of doing something "with their hands" in general ... But the world does not stand on "managerial lawyers" - the world stands on those who create the very "mathematical values" by redistribution which is then engaged in by the bulk of people. So it comes out as in the old saying "one with a bipod - seven with a spoon." And the most offensive thing is that it is perceived as the norm.
    1. +1
      14 September 2015 11: 51
      You are right, we had a small "revolution" in our heads, which was simply not noticed by those who were entitled to it, namely, in "our time" we thought: "do not have something? Do it yourself!", And now everyone has heads: "is there something? find money and-buy!" That's all.
  28. 0
    14 September 2015 11: 53
    Quote: CONTROL
    Quote: klaus16
    Manager, which, if it’s easier to say, is a reseller,

    The manager in tsarist Russia was ... at the merchants, called - clerk...

    Well, in the aftermath of the well-known events of 17gg, being among the educated people was at least not safe. Long live the proletariat! Land-peasants, factories-workers, etc.
    He worked for 5 years as an engineer-technologist. for 10-20t.r. Now the operator at the station. with CNC. (30-40t.r). Guys say in Soviet times, this ratio was 150 rubles against 300 rubles.
    And the workers as well as the engineers are no longer needed by and large. there is China! There s / n 100 $ / month.
  29. +1
    14 September 2015 11: 56
    Well, as far as humanitarian education is concerned, all the same, they also need it. He himself has an engineering (1 higher_) and economic (2 higher) education. As a result, both are affected by the salary, as a result of which I apply for and receive positions that are not commensurate with the experience, simply as a result of the availability of skills and education.
    1. +1
      14 September 2015 13: 30
      To claim and receive in the Russian Federation in 99% does not depend on either education or skills, I know from my own experience. It depends on the connections and the case ... My salary ranged from 23.000 to 120.000 calmly, depending on the job. The shitty the job and the less associated with engineering the more dough. For example, when I worked as an ordinary 1C configurator, I got 120, and for example, as a leading circuit designer, I received 23.000 rubles. The difference between them is how many years I spent preparing, for a circuit-programmer-programmer I spent 9.5 years (5.5 years institute + 4 years of practice), the result was 23.000 and the developed equipment, and 1 months on the 2C configurator. The result - 100.000 - 120.000 and the implementation of projectors such as writing reports, and chains of documents ...
  30. 0
    14 September 2015 13: 55
    The "salary problem" largely stems from the area in which money "spins" and how quickly it "turns around". It is clear that the bulk of money "spins" not in production, but in the sphere of redistribution and services, that is, in trade, banking, media, advertising, servicing these sectors, etc. Therefore, one cannot expect "high" wages in production, as there is simply no "big money" and "fast" "turnover" of this money.
  31. +7
    14 September 2015 14: 17
    Have you realized? And when millions of highly qualified engineers went nowhere, just to feed a family - how's that? I am one of them. I repair cars to feed my family. He worked at the enterprise of the Minsudmash as a design engineer for half his life. I can’t boast not to say that I still need to look for such an engineer. One example is when the NEP began in the Baltic States, I myself, alone, designed a gearbox for a mini-tractor of the Kirovets type. All calculations and working drawings are made by me personally. Under my leadership, three copies of the gearbox were made in metal at the plant and successfully tested at the stand - I also designed the stand.
    So here it is.
  32. dmb
    -3
    14 September 2015 14: 57
    Article and comments - you can't read without tears. In our bad life today, they are to blame (I list them in descending order of guilt): the State Department, Ukrainians, Zionists, liberal oligarchs, just liberals, patriotic oligarchs, lawyers, economists, traffic cops. Does it not seem to you, dear colleagues, that our party and government consist exclusively of engineers, the result was about the same, if not worse. Of course, you can do without the State Department, Zionists and oligarchs, but hardly the rest. You can't even do without traffic cops, because engineers also drive drunk, exceed the speed limit and do not allow pedestrians to ride on the zebra crossing.
  33. 0
    14 September 2015 14: 59
    On the lack of fish, and in the 21st century, one can consider not the number of engineers, but engineering problems.
  34. +3
    14 September 2015 15: 09
    The main problem of import substitution is workers and engineers. There are neither one nor the other.
    Stalin understood this and drove the people to vocational schools, technical schools, and institutes.
    We are being driven into sellers, guards and thieves. Until this is cured, nothing will happen.
    Workers, engineers, researchers and scientists are not done instantly or even in a year.
    You need to understand that you still need a school! It needs a generation of experience that needs to be maintained and studied.
    So there will be nothing! Do not entertain yourself with illusions! Especially DAM looks funny here.
    Yes, and the right words and bad things GDP just will not help here!
    1. 0
      14 September 2015 21: 12
      Everyone needs ready-made and magicians, so that without the necessary tools, without the necessary design, modeling, they immediately "harp" a finished super-duper product and work in violation of the laws of physics.
  35. BMW
    +1
    14 September 2015 15: 34
    I read the comments - sad sadness. The fate of the techie is nowhere worse, I know for myself. They do not appreciate it, even if there is no close replacement, at least some kind of parody.
    But in the elections, almost unanimously for United Russia.
    I asked my friend’s wife, she works as a primary school teacher, why, because all kinds of extra allowances and part-time jobs are being cut - she sits with her eyes clapping, can’t say anything intelligible.
    In the head of people, porridge and urine, the thinker has eroded, and you are talking about high.
  36. +3
    14 September 2015 16: 27
    Guys, and the saddest thing is that the army also does not need engineers, I retire after 3 years, and about 10 people left from our graduation profile, the rest went into the frames, mob, org. etc., but there is no youth, and there will be no hike before retirement, and then they are surprised why the planes are falling and their engines are burning, and because even they are not able to check the fuel quality now, not to mention the engine adjustments. Correctly, it’s better to sit in the warm office in the study and shift the paperwork and draw up lesson schedules than to work with the plane in the wind and cold, and the captain is the limit for an engineer, and in headquarters it’s from major and higher.
  37. +2
    14 September 2015 17: 53
    Engineers without production - das east fiction!
  38. +4
    14 September 2015 19: 22
    We have enough engineers in the city. Yes, they have nowhere to work ... And where there is, they pay a penny. I personally get the impression that Russia does not need engineers. It’s understandable that everything around is imported and all the cycles are only assembled. There’s no development anywhere. Maybe it’s just in the military-industrial complex. Besides, you don’t have to confuse engineering vacancies. Now engineers and labor protection engineers are most often required. Designers are also in construction. there is almost no demand for engineering designers.
  39. +1
    14 September 2015 20: 50
    But the state program "in each park in the temple" is being successfully implemented ... The secret (suspicious, conspiracy theories, something that was only thought of before going to bed) becomes apparent.
  40. +1
    14 September 2015 20: 53
    I'm just an engineer from Ukraine. What Western companies are we talking about? Which of them will contact the engineering one-day from Russia? From my own experience, I will say that Russia gives many projects to "outsourcing" to Ukraine! The salary of an engineer in our country, in terms of 6-9 thousand rubles (and this is considered "not bad"), a leading engineer - 12-15 thousand ("generally a rich man"). The terms and amount of work are amazing: if a Russian contractor asks for 3 months and "a couple of million", then we are given a subcontract in 3 weeks and 120 thousand rubles. And this will be considered a great success for us. The difference also breeds "managers" so hated by you.
  41. -1
    14 September 2015 21: 02
    I worked a lot where, including twice at military enterprises as a programmer and an electronic engineer. And I can say one thing (summing up and not going into numerous details): Yes, you all went to Learn!
    The only employer for whom I want to be an engineer is myself. At the moment, I am engaged in outright idleness (like I work), I have a monthly financial inflow of 40 (income from one "job") + 5 (income from another) + 17 + 1,5 (scholarship in magistracy) = 63,5 kub ... I am studying to be a veterinarian (-38 kub / year) and a master's degree in processes and apparatus in the food industry.
  42. +1
    15 September 2015 01: 04
    PathFinder_II (2) SU Yesterday, 21:02

    I worked a lot where, including twice at military enterprises as a programmer and an electronic engineer. And I can say one thing (summing up and not going into numerous details): Yes, you all went to Learn!


    Welcome all!

    I do not agree with your opinion Alex. Regarding the fact that you earn well and study, I am happy for you sincerely.

    But what the majority of engineers and technicians write here, technicians, engineers, technologists, repairmen, Alas, THE TRUTH.

    And engineers as such, you will only find between us the old guard, about youth, I can say little good.
    Little experience, minimum knowledge, but at least plenty of ambition and conceit.

    And I want to note one flaw inherent in all specialists without exception in the countries of the post-USSR.
    Everyone "knows everything" and "everyone understands" !?
    And often before hearing the end of the sentence from a more experienced colleague about the principle of operation, disassembly and troubleshooting ...
    But when you ask them what do you know? Answer: "Uh ..."
    What do you understand? Answer: "Yyy ..."
    To say that I “don't know something, I hear it for the first time” is an admission of my own inferiority!
    And I having
    - 1st diploma of a doctor (Children's doctor, specialization and practice "Children's anesthesiologist" for less than 7 years)
    - and the 2nd diploma "Radio engineering engineer", obtained in addition to medical practice, in absentia from the 2nd to the 6th year,
    and have been working for the past 25 years in the field of industrial automation, instrumentation, commissioning, commissioning, repair, maintenance, of which almost 17 are abroad,
    I’m not shy that in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, or here in Russia, ask anyone who has heard an unfamiliar word or term: What is it? Tell and explain please.

    And "the royal crown from my head did not fall" even once, and I do not consider myself stupid or armless.

    But the real earnings are LOW and the prestige of engineering, very low and the low-income specialties themselves ...
    I’m still fine, in addition to work, I also periodically make translations from Czech, Slovak, English, and there are additional money, although not much.

    So far, I have not reached the desired medical instrumentation, pharmaceutical production, or food production, where I can apply, in addition to technology, my knowledge from medicine, biochemistry, pharmacology, and hygiene, but since I have only been in Russia for a year.

    But let's see what the future will bring to me?

    Michael, Smolensk.
    1. +1
      23 September 2015 13: 31
      I am also not ashamed to ask if I don’t know / don’t understand / don’t know how. I do not consider myself an expert / navel of the earth / ultimate truth. I have 1001 flaws and a knowledge gap. To the best of my ability and strength, I try to patch the gaps. But I am against the a priori statement that someone is "a specialist, because he ... (has been working in this profession for a long time, he is n * my years old, he has such and such a diploma / medal, etc.)". Argumentation / explanation is needed, not just a rejection of the idea you proposed. And in our industry - "I am the boss, you / oh you after all, ** cancer is a forbidden word on the site :-) /", there is no trust in hired specialists, there is no separation of powers, there is no mentoring. I’m already 40 and I’m unlikely to be able to achieve anything in engineering, and that’s where my message comes from. For me, the knowledge gained at the institute may still be useful. And I don't give a damn about the fact that the state has lost a "labor unit" in my face, it is generous with us.
  43. +1
    15 September 2015 05: 24
    Quote: Nagan
    I didn’t want to trade in a stall or join a gang, but where else would an engineer go? But he was not one of the worst ones - in less than 5 years, not everyone has grown from a graduate to a leading designer. Now, even if I wanted to go back to the Kuhlmann, it would not work, all that I knew and knew how to restarted over the years. And, judging by what salaries are offered, nobody needs it.

    I have a similar situevina, after graduating from university in 94, I worked as a design engineer for 2 years, not a job but a song, but the organization was closed, the people were dispersed, only I didn’t fall off the hill, I remained at home, and for almost 20 years I’m a manager.
  44. +1
    16 September 2015 21: 26
    It's time to take up education, I propose Shoigu to the post of Minister of Education! winked

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