Military Review

Engineer as a rare shot ...

181
Import substitution ... The term, which in recent months has become one of the most frequently spoken by the representatives of the Russian government at various levels. That's just to establish a direct proportionality between the number of pronunciations of the word and the volume of real achievements in the import-substituting process is not yet obtained. In the overwhelming majority of cases, import substitution for some reason means the refusal of import from one group of states in favor of import from another group of states. Replacement - yes ... Import ... - no ... And this is not only about the food market, although it is in the food sector that reducing import volumes by increasing own production and improving logistics efficiency in the domestic market is primarily an achievable task. However, as they say, not by bread alone ...


One of the directions, which is not less strategically important than the provision of own and high-quality food, is the sphere of engineering technologies. There is a whole scattering of announcements in the network with offers of services from hundreds of so-called engineering companies, declaring their readiness to create projects, supply and install the equipment necessary for their implementation, conduct comprehensive technical supervision and even serve investment flows. And the engineering companies for the most part are Russian, which seems to be a sign that Russia does not need any help in developing and bringing to mind projects of various levels. But in reality, things are not as simple as they might seem.

The statistics services claim that recently the number of engineering companies in the Russian Federation has increased significantly. If even 10 years ago, their number in the total mass of Russian business units was measured in fractions of a percent, then now the engineering structures (if statistics are to be believed) are no less than 2%. But are they all ready to guarantee the fulfillment of the declared functions of designing, attracting investments, technical support and further implementation of the project? ..

It is quite simple to answer this question if we consider any average project that goes beyond the framework of “designing and investing” a drain pit in the summer cottage. As soon as it comes to the need to realize something large enough in scale, companies that have announced their "engineering" suddenly begin to actively look for ways out of the situation. What is the output? The point is that the company is trying to get the right to create and implement a project without having sufficient potentials. And as soon as such a right is obtained (suddenly), they are throwing themselves from side to side at least in terms of finding qualified personnel who could be engaged in designing. On behalf of the company, “announcements” are brought up about attracting engineering personnel who are able to help with the project.
On the one hand, all this can be called a market economy: that there was no money - there was a company, but the company had no engineering potential, and as soon as they got the right to the project - you can also find qualified specialists at the labor exchanges. But there is a downside: are there any guarantees that in a short time it will be possible to find those design engineers and other specialists who are able to turn the de facto company “Horns and hoofs” into a real engineering structure with all the possibilities servicing a large project? And not only in a short time, but in general ... Unfortunately, no one can give such guarantees, as qualified engineers (in virtually any industry) are too much in demand today for them to sit and wait for any of the "engineering" companies will suddenly give an announcement of a vacancy and call them to him. And the engineers who are able to realize a project of impressive scale are a single piece “product”.

Engineer as a rare shot ...


The practice of “pre-import-replacing” times said that the way out of the situation was through the involvement of foreign experts in the project. That is, a Russian company that, according to all the documents, is “engineering”, used the services of a truly engineering foreign company, well established in the market and having a wealth of experience, human resources and technical equipment. It is easy to guess that a significant proportion of the funds allocated to the project ended up being abroad, from which the Russian budget did not receive enough impressive funds that could be received in taxes. It happened that the customer, realizing that the engineering of the majority of Russian structures, unfortunately, was fake, or for “some other” reasons, was directly seeking access to foreign structures in order to sign a contract with them. However, in some cases this led to unpredictable results.

One example is the signing of a contract with the German company Rheinmetall for the construction of a military training center (combat training center) in Mulino in pre-sanctioned times by the Russian Ministry of Defense. German specialists had to work on the project, which is called from A to Z, but in the end it turned out that the Germans had time to say their “A”, but instead of German “Z” they no longer had German, and Russian companies had to say Russian “I’m ". The fact is that “from somewhere above” Rheinmetall was instructed to stop the implementation of the project, because the sanctions ... But the German “comrades” already had the money, as they say, uplifts ... As a result, we had to pay more, but already the Russian “Garrison” ”, Which was supposed to bring to mind the project of the combat training center with all its special stands, target complexes and software of the facility.

The fact that with our own engineering potential we (Russia) are experiencing serious problems, says the information of the all-Russian base of vacancies "Work in Russia". The page provides a group of jobs for engineers. And this is one of those groups that continues to expand. At the time of the preparation of the material, the all-Russian base issued more than 1600 engineering vacancies in Moscow alone. In all regions, the number of vacancies exceeded 16,2 thousand. The main question is: where can we get so many engineering specialists, if practically all post-Soviet years the outlook in the style “abroad will help us” and “three diplomas of lawyer, economist and manager were formed engineer ”... And the answer to this question can be only one: specialists must be trained at home, reviving a full-fledged engineering school, actually buried by the system of training“ defective managers ”. And this in itself should become a strategically important task, so that later it would not be necessary to rely on the "district metals" and other "partner" associations. The main thing to remember is that shouting about import substitution (and also in the engineering field) and systematically following the path of developing your own potentials is not the same thing.
Author:
Photos used:
http://www.rosenergoatom.ru
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  1. Kibalchish
    Kibalchish 14 September 2015 06: 03 New
    +41
    For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is a rarity.
    1. EGOrkka
      EGOrkka 14 September 2015 06: 08 New
      +7
      D is not so simple. It was difficult to find a good engineer before ..... and those that were produced ..... and mechanics could be called with a big stretch! Just don’t talk about the miracle of the automotive industry: the Cossack and the Muscovite, according to which you are so plastered .....
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 14 September 2015 13: 05 New
        +21
        EGOrkka "D is not so simple. It was difficult to find a good engineer before ..... but those that were produced ..... and mechanics could be called a stretch! Just don’t talk about the miracle of the car industry: Cossacks and Muscovites, which you are so suggesting .. "
        We will talk about aircraft construction, rocket science, the nuclear industry, and the defense industry. Not enough?))) Shipbuilding.))) On the entire infrastructure of the country: pipelines, railways, airports., Ports, the unified power system of the USSR. Which are used by all the former republics of the USSR to this day.
        But the Cossack and the Muscovite ... this is a matter of state priorities. Then it was believed that this was not the main thing. Pancake. but Su27 and Mig 29 are more important.))))
        1. EGOrkka
          EGOrkka 14 September 2015 15: 11 New
          -4
          Nagaibak
          But the Cossack and the Muscovite ... this is a matter of state priorities. Then it was believed that this was not the main thing.


          ... so the engineers designed the "Cossack" and "Muscovite" or not engineers? The list goes on and on ....
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 14 September 2015 15: 39 New
            +7
            EGOrkka "... so the engineers designed the Zaporozhets and the Muscovite or not the engineers? The list goes on and on ...."
            So who designed the Soyuz ship? Or not the engineers?))) The list goes on ....
            1. EGOrkka
              EGOrkka 15 September 2015 04: 59 New
              -2
              ... you get some kind of Jewish Jewry: for a question, a question. If Cossacks and Muscovites were not designed by engineers, then why were they called engineers? I understand that it’s difficult and far from fast to grow and train an engineer! And the fact that most universities graduated as engineers and were not the main answer to your question! And then the country didn’t make sense to “smooth out” the undereducers, and now there is no! As well as a huge mass of lawyers, although there is no superfluous legal diploma, in a legal society! hi
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 15 September 2015 07: 27 New
                +2
                EGOrkka ". You get some kind of Jewish Jewry: a question, a question. If the Cossacks and the Muscovites were not designed by engineers, then why were they called engineers."
                You are talking nonsense in this matter. Ask inappropriate questions. I answered you more than intelligibly. And I do not understand))) how else to explain to you. Do not pour mud on Soviet education and Soviet engineers. First, find a replacement for them among the modern cadres. So far, everything rests with us precisely on the people of that still Soviet hardening. Minuses are not mine.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 15 September 2015 08: 19 New
                  +2
                  For its time, the Muscovite was not a bad car and exported. You would at least read about the car before pouring mud. It is clear that he was then outdated and there was nothing to replace him. So this is more a matter of financing, rather than engineers.
                  “Moskvich-412 was widely offered on the foreign market until the mid-seventies. The export geography included both socialist camp countries and Western European countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Great Britain, Germany, Finland, Scandinavian countries, Greece and others), as well as countries Latin America (Cuba, Nicaragua, Jamaica, Panama).

                  M-412 went for export under brands representing various variants of the Latinized spelling of the word “Moskvich” - Moskvich, Moskvitch, Moskwitsch, Moskvitsh; or (to some markets) like Moskvitch Elite 1500 or simply Elite 1500 (also on the Finnish leaflets the designation Elite 1500 Cavalier is found), and enjoyed relatively good demand until the mid-seventies, including in Western Europe. "The most successful period for export “Muscovites” was the turn of the sixties and seventies. The successful performance in sensational rally raids like “London-Sydney” (1968) and “London-Mexico City” (1970), “Western Safari - Argungu” [5] greatly contributed to their popularity. [6] (1973) and others in which the car proved to be reliable and adapted for difficult road conditions.The conservative but strong construction was the main trump card of the Moskvich-412, along with a fairly modern and relatively powerful engine, especially according to standards its price group. "
                2. EGOrkka
                  EGOrkka 15 September 2015 09: 06 New
                  -1
                  Nagaibak
                  So far, everything rests with us precisely on the people of that still Soviet hardening


                  For me, an engineer is not the one who should, but who can! However, like another specialist. But for today - much more is needed than a connoisseur of calculations and a determinant of schemes. We need a creator, manager, organizer and not a quick-moving “closet” with shelves for knowledge ....! School should be different !!!!! brought up on the initiative !!!!!
                  (Of course, I could also wiggle about "alliances" with "progresses" that fall through time, but this is not the point of conversation ...)
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 15 September 2015 09: 34 New
                    +2
                    EGOrkka "Of course I could have a little wiggle about the" alliances "with the" progresses "that fall through time."
                    Yorn on health.)))) And I jerk on.))) They started to fall under the very rule of democratic power.))) Previously, they somehow did not fall. When the Union would have fallen))) So much for the degradation to which the country was let down, sweeping away the Soviet one. This is necessary ... to bring the most reliable seven to the handle. The school is different))) and what does our school bother you with? Is she not initiative? - Stupidity. The fact that everything is still holding on to it and has not collapsed?))) This is what safety margin was laid when new leaders have not been exploiting the Soviet heritage for more than 20 years and cannot finish it off.))) Missiles fly, planes too locomotives go, ships go.))) Yes, they dropped the civil aircraft industry, well, let's see.
                    That means everything was bad))) but there isn’t any new one. Pshik guys.)))
                    For you, an engineer ... maybe))) ... should.))) A pun. So you think that the Communists did not have any merits in front of the country?))) Or do you theorize in general?))) Then this is another question, keep on health.
                    1. EGOrkka
                      EGOrkka 15 September 2015 10: 37 New
                      0
                      Nagaibak
                      They began to fall under the very rule of democratic power.


                      Nagaibak
                      So far, everything rests with us precisely on the people of that still Soviet hardening

                      ... I did not pull your tongue ....
                      Now, in turn, about the engineering successes of the USSR:
                      1. After the revolution of 1917, the engineering school was formed precisely on the enthusiasm of the masses.
                      2. A lot of open and closed contests gave a good impetus ..
                      3. Widely purchased technologies and samples abroad (aircraft engine industry)
                      4. .... no matter what they say, the pressure from the GPU also did not contribute to slackness.
                      .................................................. ..............................
                      .
                      ....... you can continue but it's a long time .............. bully
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 15 September 2015 12: 49 New
                        +2
                        EGOrkka. "The engineering school after the 1917 revolution was formed just on the enthusiasm of the masses."
                        Yes, well?)) Is that bad?)))
                        EGOrkka "A lot of open and closed contests gave a good boost .."
                        And that's bad?)))
                        EGOrkka "Widely purchased technologies and samples abroad (aircraft engine industry)"
                        And who did not buy them?)))
                        Pressure from the GPU)))
                        By the way, if you write about the GPU, then you should know that under Stalin the engineers received very good salaries, it was later under Brezhnev that they were reduced.
                        And what? The meaning of your passage? And now all that is being created is the development of those Soviet developments that are a hundred years old at lunch. And what?
                        What are you not pulling there and for something garbage. I meant people in the workplace who received a normal education. Unions began to fall already in the 2000s. This is the result of the board of your current managers. And you throw all the stones in the Soviet garden.))) Maybe you will start to do something?)))
                        It is a pity I do not know the city in which you live.)))
                    2. EGOrkka
                      EGOrkka 15 September 2015 12: 47 New
                      -4
                      Nagaibak
                      So you think that the Communists did not have any merit to the country?


                      So are we talking about communists or about engineers? If about the Communists, then they are directly responsible for the collapse of the country and the national economy !!! It was they who held the reins in their hands: snickering, arrogant and overgrown with "moss" reveling in past victories !!! hi
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 15 September 2015 13: 07 New
                        +1
                        = EGOrkka "So we are talking about communists or about engineers? If they are about communists then they are directly responsible for the collapse of the country and the national economy !!! It is they who are holding the reins of government: they got too big, conceited and overgrown with" moss "reveling in past victories! !! "
                        How easily you pour mud at all.))) Have you come up with a lot of things in your life and implemented them?))) I see you have nothing more to say.))) Besides the slogans. Trying to catch a word.)))) So what city are you from, if not secret?))) By the way, regarding the Communists))) a lot of engineers were them. And they determined the policy in the country. It is strange that you do not know about this.))) But you betrayed everyone to Gorbach and Alkash.)))
                      2. EGOrkka
                        EGOrkka 15 September 2015 15: 17 New
                        -2
                        Nagaibak
                        How you easily mud all over.)


                        Who forbade cybernetics and selection? Who was going to cultivate the corn queen of the fields everywhere? Who nearly cut the entire fleet and artillery? Whose economy should be economical? Who struggled with vineyards and orchards? Do not indulge in living past - your past is not a city garden!
                      3. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 15 September 2015 18: 58 New
                        +2
                        EGOrkka "Do not indulge in the past living — your past is not a city garden!"
                        You are engaged in insanity.))) All spitting.)) I do not live in the past.))) I am quite a modern person. Our childhood was really happy. And the city was a garden.))))
                        EGOrkka "Who was going to cultivate the corn queen of the fields everywhere?"
                        In-senility do not cultivate it at all.)))
                        Mistakes and senile decisions occur everywhere .. someone pours milk in hundreds of liters, someone instills apples. What happens under capitalism less insanity?))) Asphalt is laid in snow and rain in Russia at all times.))) Or not?)))
                        EGOrkka "Whose economy should be economical?"
                        And what is bad in an economical economy. Do you even know what it was said?)))
                        I don’t know how old you are and I don’t know what city you are from. So for now, bye. You live bored with stamps, talking with stamps.
                      4. EGOrkka
                        EGOrkka 16 September 2015 03: 42 New
                        -2
                        Nagaibak
                        Mistakes and senility decisions occur everywhere ..


                        Socialism under communism is a system of errors! Look how the same system of errors is used on the ruins now, but European communism in cynicobanderovsky !!!! I didn’t tell you anything indiscriminately; I simply listed the slogans of your favorite leaders. And you immediately became "bored" .....
                      5. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 16 September 2015 06: 13 New
                        +1
                        EGOrkka "! I didn’t tell you anything indiscriminately; I simply listed the slogans of your favorite leaders. And you immediately became" bored "....."
                        You argue in general, without specificity, therefore it is not interesting. Blah blah blah. You talk indiscriminately about my "beloved leaders." Although your leaders haven’t done anything yet.
                      6. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 16 September 2015 06: 34 New
                        +2
                        Add in your key. It is difficult to argue with a person who studied according to the textbooks of Chubais and Gaidar. After all, you allow yourself such statements about my leaders))) so I voiced your leaders.
                      7. EGOrkka
                        EGOrkka 16 September 2015 11: 14 New
                        -2
                        Nagaibak
                        It is hard to argue with a person who studied in the textbooks of Chubais and Gaidar.


                        .... Yes, no, the textbooks we had were the same, only the teachers and schools were different ...... you were more in the "heaven" and I walked on the ground .... with legs.

                        Question: what can you do? (pens and head).
  • Reducer
    Reducer 14 September 2015 15: 42 New
    +14
    The list can be completed, as it is not regrettable.
    The conclusion wanders from article to article: "... specialists must be trained at home, reviving a full-fledged engineering school ..."
    Hrenushki, I tell you, dots Mr. Livanov with the "comrades" as an ambush regiment lurked!
    General accessibility to the circles of pioneer houses, the inseparability of schools, technical schools and universities from production - and all will be happy)))
    No one except the state can organize this. Well, the Bologna system in our open spaces is not the birth of specialists, it is a complete miscarriage (it’s not for nothing that the pigeons in Bologna spoiled the whole university! I saw it myself! Probably ours!)
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 September 2015 16: 39 New
      +9
      Reductor

      The fact that Mr. Livanov and his comrades intrigues is building it is half the trouble.

      The second trouble is that they do not want to raise their engineer in the factories themselves and it is precisely saving the budget.
      In reality, there is a fresh graduate, but he has no experience. They will not take him to work as a full-fledged one, which is logical. But to take a young one, then they will give him a meager salary that he will not be able to create a family, and there are no prospects. Therefore, the youth does not invest their life time in unemployment.

      I say that fundamentally the system needs to be changed. The laws.
      1. Wasiliy1985
        Wasiliy1985 14 September 2015 19: 16 New
        +7
        Thanks to the one who meant the principle: "the market knows better what it needs!" - the basis of state building. The daughter of this "one" is now in the Odessa region with Mishiko as assistants.
    2. EGOrkka
      EGOrkka 15 September 2015 06: 38 New
      0
      ... the problem is not only this .... approached the "engineer" - let me move the idea together, will you pay in return? ..... fool
  • Wasiliy1985
    Wasiliy1985 14 September 2015 19: 09 New
    0
    This is true!
    I wanted to answer the previous comment - but you answered both fully and fully!
    Everything to the point - neither add nor decrease!
  • Gato
    Gato 14 September 2015 13: 15 New
    +2
    Of course, all the best shots in the bud (from the 3rd year) were scored by the defense industry. And from the point of view of a technical university student, getting a "mailbox" was not at all like a regular factory. I know that by myself.
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 September 2015 17: 01 New
      +4
      Cat.

      Why defense?

      Because it is a state. In which the planning elements are preserved. They invest in a new generation of engineers and there is a continuity system.

      Small and medium-sized private companies are not able to afford the luxury to grow their own. They are ready to take an experienced but on a small salary. With a career promise, just what is a hidden lie. Salaries never grow referring to difficulties. But the load on the person is growing. The reason is simple. If once you got in touch with one boss, your career depends on him, and this is a slave system that limits your choice, especially if it is a production in a small town.
  • nebalagur
    nebalagur 14 September 2015 06: 31 New
    +110
    We change the region from “All Russia” or “Moscow” to, say, “Novosibirsk Region” and, lo and behold, the offered salaries in vacancies from 7 750 bp to 25 thousand bp average.
    Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.
    Tell me, dear, na-hua person who has given additional studies and the desire for the heights of knowledge, get a job as a janitor? am Why cram physics, sopromat, thermal bath, hydraulics, etc., if he has an average ceiling installed in 25 tyr ??? fool
    Until the attitude towards the engineer is like cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economies and jurisdictions, and the country will hire "French and Germans" ... sad
    1. Zomanus
      Zomanus 14 September 2015 06: 47 New
      +47
      It is a pity that 100 pluses can not be put. I agree completely and completely.
      Plus the fact that the manager can go from company to company, only enriching your experience. And an engineer if he quits from one enterprise, then to another, an engineer at the same level, he is unlikely to get a job. In fact, piece goods, unique. sharpened for a certain specialization of production. And we remember how such hundreds were thrown over the threshold in 90's.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 14 September 2015 07: 06 New
        +26
        Quote: Zomanus
        And we remember how such hundreds were thrown over the threshold in the 90s.

        Well, so I ended up in America not from a good life, and I'm not alone. I didn’t want to trade in a stall or join a gang, but where else would an engineer go? But he was not one of the worst ones - in less than 5 years, not everyone has grown from a graduate to a leading designer. Now, even if I wanted to go back to the Kuhlmann, it would not work, all that I knew and knew how to restarted over the years. And, judging by what salaries are offered, nobody needs it.
        request
        1. klaus16
          klaus16 14 September 2015 07: 58 New
          +19
          By the way, I agree about salaries. The manager, who, if it is easier to say the reseller, gets more than a specialist engineer! Manager does not create anything, unlike an engineer. Manager is just a stall. And the engineers were lowered. Nobody needs his knowledge. The maximum that would be responsible, the priest on duty.
          1. CONTROL
            CONTROL 14 September 2015 08: 43 New
            +16
            Quote: klaus16
            Manager, which, if it’s easier to say, is a reseller,

            The manager in tsarist Russia was ... at the merchants, called - clerk.
          2. Revolver
            Revolver 14 September 2015 10: 00 New
            +13
            Quote: klaus16
            And the engineers were lowered.

            Dropped back in Brezhnev’s times, if not in Khrushchev’s. I started with a salary of 110 rubles, in those days less was paid only to traders (well, really these would not be in poverty, and without a salary at all). And so the workers were paid much more. According to my late grandfather, also a mechanical engineer, under Stalin, our brother was valued, although the demand was also not weak. And then they raised salaries to everyone except engineers. I still remember Raikin’s Hochma that if there is no shortage, the merchandiser will be like simple engineer - Does this mean the prestige of engineering work in society?
            But it was interesting to work, and with interesting people whose conversation topics were not limited to what to drink after the shift.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Sirocco
          Sirocco 14 September 2015 10: 26 New
          +10
          Quote: Nagan
          pa Now, even if I wanted to go back to the Kuhlmann, it would not work, all that I knew and knew how to restarted over the years.

          As far as I know, there is no drawing lesson at school now, labor lessons, in most cases, complete profanity, Lathes are like furniture. I talked with the abridged master from the technical school, now there are curators who are sitting in two, three groups. So, where did you see welding training, with 5 kg of electrodes per month? The authorities said, cursed, saying why so many. And with practice, this is a big problem, that is, it is not there as such. Machine park, 60s, barely alive.
          That's how engineers are actually being raised here. angry We have no connection between educational institutions and enterprises. All by itself, lives, so to speak, independently. Like in capitalism.
          1. gladcu2
            gladcu2 14 September 2015 17: 21 New
            +3
            Sirocco.

            Here is your last phrase and gave the answer.
            "Like in capitalism."

            So something is wrong with this cap. Does not give the correct installation.
            1. Wasiliy1985
              Wasiliy1985 14 September 2015 20: 32 New
              0
              Who would doubt but the "defective" ...
        4. Mhpv
          Mhpv 14 September 2015 11: 50 New
          +5

          Lucky you laughing
        5. Reducer
          Reducer 14 September 2015 15: 44 New
          +1
          Well, the culman now still need to look! laughing
        6. gladcu2
          gladcu2 14 September 2015 17: 16 New
          +5
          Revolver.

          I am also in your shoes. Everything you say is familiar to me. I really do what the hell knows, if only calmly and steadily.

          But. I can put an average enterprise for a couple of thousand people on its feet. There is still general knowledge, and if necessary even in a month I can raise a narrow specialization in any field. Mechanics, electronics or chemistry.
          There is simply no motivation. I know perfectly well what I will have to face in this or that area.

          But also the most important. Motivation is not only the blessings of life. In many ways, motivation also has other beginnings. This is ideology, stability, perspective.
      2. ingener1966
        ingener1966 14 September 2015 13: 15 New
        +2
        I do not agree with you, in the current situation (lack of highly qualified specialists), the transfer to another enterprise, as a rule, leads to an increase in salary and position. fellow Believe me, I know what I'm writing about. In energy, at least this happens. Firms have more directors who understand that HIGH-QUALITY cadres decide EVERYTHING !! lol
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 14 September 2015 18: 09 New
          +3
          ingener1966

          Right. Tighten the owner can only be dismissal. But your independence depends on the availability of work within reach. And you always need to consider that the awl for soap do not change. And here you will learn about this by eating a pound of dashing in a new place. And your boss knows that too.

          And what about those people who do not want to be slaves in the outback? The logical answer is moving. Moving to? That's right, in industrial centers where there is work. So what?

          And rightly so. Unemployment is growing. Housing is getting more expensive. And who makes money? Definitely not you.

          In short, why. All your problems come down to one. To the basic law. Since the adoption of the nationally-oriented fundamental law, in a year there will be an industrial upsurge.
        2. Wasiliy1985
          Wasiliy1985 14 September 2015 20: 58 New
          +1
          Attention!
          There are more and more directors (who understand), only fewer companies (in which there are such directors) —that is what the article is about.
        3. sq
          sq 15 September 2015 08: 16 New
          0
          Quote: ingener1966
          Firms have more directors who understand that HIGH-CLASS cadres decide EVERYTHING!

          few of them, very few, of thousands
    2. I am
      I am 14 September 2015 08: 14 New
      +34
      In Saratov, salary engineer in the region from 15 to 20 thousand rubles. just do not train engineers now. Universities graduate undergraduates. This year in SSTU was the last graduation of ENGINEERS full-time specialists. Specialists who can still be taught are being reduced. All attempts to raise the topic in local media are futile. Historians, philosophers, and managers are appointed in the place of normal leaders in the SSTU. Yesterday's secretaries and Ph.D. from other universities, but with very big ambitions. The vice-rector for educational work, in color, says that what for does not need student training, but only the rating, reporting and how many students will participate in the exhibition and / or competitions. Ksk engineers? Where do they come from in this situation? At the former faculty of mechanics, for example, there remained the only specialist in metal cutting machines, doctor of technical sciences, professor, member of the scientific council. So from September 1st, they did not even give him a 0,25 bet. So, there’s no one to teach the handling of machines here. And such an example is not the same, unfortunately .....
      1. Svetlana
        Svetlana 14 September 2015 09: 14 New
        +13
        Quote: I am
        Universities graduate undergraduates.

        Absolutely right! Government policy aimed at training even from talented guys, gray and poorly educated masses is doing its job. Already from the 70s and 80s, education began to fall in quality lower and lower, but even the graduate of the 80s, the three-year-old, was much more literate and his knowledge was more thorough, more fundamental than those that are now given in universities . It is safe to say that we buried the educational system in the country. And what could be import substitution in general if industry does not really work the way it should work in a country rich in resources, labor and huge potential? If Chinese bullshit is cheaper and easier to buy than producing in your own country?
      2. marlin1203
        marlin1203 14 September 2015 09: 52 New
        +11
        Specialists order industry. No industry - no specialists needed. Then they will be needed, as always we will "give birth in agony". So it is customary with us.
      3. Majesty
        Majesty 14 September 2015 16: 08 New
        +1
        Quote: I am
        Universities graduate undergraduates. This year in SSTU was the last graduation of ENGINEERS full-time specialists.

        As for the undergraduate undergraduates, I disagree with you. I graduated this year just with those last engineers, “Specialists”. And we did not pinch the bachelors with anything in terms of theses and general preparedness for specialization. The entire period of study at our bachelors had one thing unknown, since we first bachelors did not have a clear curriculum. Therefore, teachers had to read as well as "specialists." Even when they wrote the diploma there was no clear date and order of delivery. And they gave one and a half months to the thesis. I had to spin because the volume compared with specialists who have half a year to graduate work! not significantly reduced. As a result, the scope of my thesis exceeded the analogous diploma from a specialist. Our group defended by five. One of the members of the state commission was the Minister for the Development of Youth Policy who noted that we are the first bachelors in demand and we have good jobs and knowledge. And as the practice of jobs in our region in my specialty has shown, count on the fingers and everyone needs "specialists" with experience of 3-5 years. And even I, who, while studying, managed to find a job by profession, worked for 1.5 years in the specialty and graduated in June this month, no one needs.
        And this is all because of the inscription Bachelor in the diploma.
        1. aleks_29296
          aleks_29296 14 September 2015 16: 29 New
          +8
          You are sorry, but by the number of grammatical errors in your comment, I have a not very good impression of bachelors.
          1. Majesty
            Majesty 14 September 2015 18: 12 New
            +1
            All because I am Mongol and Russian is my second native language. Therefore, I can afford grammatical and punctuation errors.
            1. nerd.su
              nerd.su 14 September 2015 19: 04 New
              +1
              Quote: Majestik
              Therefore, I can afford grammatical and punctuation errors.

              It’s bad that you think so. It’s bad that the university considered that you can teach you a specialty without teaching the Russian language in full.

              By the way, if a student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights smile Therefore, it does not matter 1,5 of the month he was given or six months ...
              1. Majesty
                Majesty 14 September 2015 20: 12 New
                0
                Quote: bot.su
                Quote: Majestik
                Therefore, I can afford grammatical and punctuation errors.

                By the way, if a student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights smile Therefore, it does not matter 1,5 of the month he was given or six months ...

                In our case, it mattered since we studied before May 1 and, accordingly, the load was high compared to specialists.
                Unfortunately, the topic of my thesis did not allow him to write sleepless nights for two weeks. sad
              2. Stanislas
                Stanislas 14 September 2015 21: 05 New
                +1
                Quote: bot.su
                if the student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights
                This is not found in every university. In most universities, they sleep like marmots, because their parents have already given them 20 thousand rubles, which they paid for a diploma to a copywriter, a specialist who writes a job order from a student control to a dissertation. Around universities, usually all the posts and fences are hung with announcements with similar offers. The miserable program for verifying the originality of the text "Anti-plagiarism" is easily dispensed with using simple lexico-grammatical manipulations at a price of almost 8 rubles per page of text.
                1. nerd.su
                  nerd.su 15 September 2015 09: 45 New
                  0
                  Quote: Stanislav
                  . In most universities, they sleep like marmots, because their parents have already given them 20 thousand rubles, which they paid for a diploma to a copywriter, a specialist who writes a job order from a student control to a dissertation.

                  Well, this is still more part-time students use.
                  1. Stanislas
                    Stanislas 15 September 2015 10: 43 New
                    0
                    Quote: bot.su
                    this is still more part-time students use
                    I have different statistics: most full-time students and almost all (with the rarest exceptions) external students. hi
              3. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 14 September 2015 21: 39 New
                +3
                Quote: bot.su


                By the way, if a student does not go for a red diploma, then he usually writes his thesis in the last two weeks, on sleepless nights smile Therefore, it does not matter 1,5 of the month he was given or six months ...

                Until four in the morning he drew before surrender. Then dreamed for years, bastard. (Type that did not pass) am PS In 92 I handed over.
        2. I am
          I am 14 September 2015 20: 48 New
          0
          rarely, but aptly. more of these
    3. vch62388
      vch62388 14 September 2015 08: 16 New
      +21
      I agree completely. Personally, I, having a "tower" from a university from the top ten of the country's rating, work as a hard worker (adjuster of CNC machines). I reject the offers to go to engineering; The salary of a good (writing, who understands) CNC installer is twice the salary of a master. And I need to feed and teach children ...
      1. ziqzaq
        ziqzaq 14 September 2015 09: 46 New
        +19
        Quote: vch62388
        I reject the offers to go to engineering; s / n good (writing, who understands) the CNC installer is twice the salary of the master

        You live in fat, it’s different in our production .. We have a designer, he is a technologist, he is also a CNC programmer and also managers from the “upper” echelon are turning his face. The salary of machine operators-operators will be higher than mine .. Health does not let the machine ..
        P.S. Dumber than "effective managers" I haven’t met anyone, except the snail .. And yet the brain is taken out on a planning board, and you try to explain that the wall of the pressure vessel should be 30 mm and spit on it for calculation in the trade wind - you see it when drawing up the product with the sum flew by the current does not want to confess ... D.E.B. bl ...
        1. sq
          sq 15 September 2015 08: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: ziqzaq
          spit on his hair

          It’s painfully familiar, plus it’s still beginning to learn how to count, it’s just a VERY big desire to embed it in a brazen, fat, dull face, but ....
    4. CONTROL
      CONTROL 14 September 2015 08: 39 New
      +14
      Quote: nebalagur
      Until the attitude towards the engineer is like cattle, until these very engineers there will be no ... and the country will hire "French and Germans" ... sad

      ... which are not much better than "managers" and te ...
      That's right - the problem clearly and firmly rests on the salary: a government official who, sorry to Roskompozor, doesn’t do anything, has all sorts of different benefits for this, a big, big salary (which he often does and appoints), bribes are still there ... he steals again ...
      And the foreign "engineers" were swimming, we know: we worked with them! Knowledge - yes! are ... within the scope of a paid competency! but - not higher ... and not to the side ... Initiatives - God forbid! strictly according to the instructions written (not to the table be said) almost in the US State Department! ...
      The western style of work and creativity - and such, namely, creative, is to a large extent engineering work - not for our country!
      The perestroika-liberal propaganda also played its role: managers, lawyers, and other riffraff took over production; the engineer became just an object of satire and ridicule, many "went" to the stage, to "journalism" - there is any kind of analyst and other political science ... And these "branches of forging dough" have their own not too pleasant laws and unwritten rules ... deforming human essence to the state of a cute and pretty four-armed grabber like a gibbon ...
      One has to admit: one of the outcomes of "perestroika" and liberalization is the loss of the USSR engineering corps, the indisputable and triumphant victory of the West won in the war with Russia! and restore it is a big problem, and for a long time ...
    5. Evgeniy-111
      Evgeniy-111 14 September 2015 09: 36 New
      -5
      A few years ago they showed a story about the city of Gus-Khrustalny, about the factories of glass molding there. Some German, from the descendants of the first creators of the plant, decided to restore production (with VERY good salaries for those times and for such a city - workers and craftsmen 40-60 tr., Engineers - 80-100 tr.). NOBODY came !!! Explanations: on a fig, it forces to WORK - without truancy, without drinking, with the regulated breaks ... He suffered a year and a half, and left with nothing.
      So, treating an engineer as a person does not guarantee anything.
      "You first give me a GOOD salary, and there I will think about it!"
      If a person is ABLE to work (and work well), then he will work like that at any salary (otherwise he simply doesn’t succeed). And if he doesn’t, no salary will correct him!
      1. Svetlana
        Svetlana 14 September 2015 11: 59 New
        +12
        Quote: Evgeniy-111
        A few years ago they showed a story about the city of Gus-Khrustalny, about the factories of glass molding there. Some German, from the descendants of the first creators of the plant, decided to restore production (with VERY good salaries for those times and for such a city - workers and craftsmen 40-60 tr., Engineers - 80-100 tr.). NOBODY came !!! Explanations: on a fig, it forces to WORK - without truancy, without drinking, with the regulated breaks ... He suffered a year and a half, and left with nothing.

        Something I do not believe in this story, especially since they showed me on the box. From the Vanka-do series - ak or Emelya on the stove. Some kind of propaganda. In Moscow, you’ll find such a salary in production, but here Gus-Khrustalny is a deep province — and no one came for a salary of 100 thousand! Yes, people are ready to hell knows what to do in order to earn 40-50! Lies is pure water! In our country, a production company to keep this, in principle, is unprofitable, and to pay such salaries to people - is this at a loss? Where to get the money? Rent, communal services, machine tools and equipment, raw materials, salaries, taxes, kickbacks, etc. The cost of production will be ten times greater than its sales value. Probably, the people do not do --- ak. I did not believe in such fantastic salaries. So no one came. Already, I guess, passed, they know.
        1. aleks 62 next
          aleks 62 next 14 September 2015 12: 31 New
          +3
          ..... In Moscow, at the factory, you’ll find such a salary ....


          .... And sho ????? .... At the MASHKVA STATE light wedged down ???? ..... I remember the times when in the province there were salaries at one aircraft factory - but you never dreamed of !!! !! .... Hard workers on riveting - from 500 to 800 rubles, a machine operator of 6 category to 1000 rubles, and engineers from 500 rubles. in the workshop up to 1200r in the department of the Civil Code .... hi... And this is with the country's average about 200 rubles ....
          1. Svetlana
            Svetlana 14 September 2015 14: 31 New
            +4
            Quote: aleks 62 next
            .... And sho ????? .... At the MASHKVA STATE light wedged down ???? ..... I remember the times when in the province there were salaries at one aircraft factory - but you never dreamed of !!! !! ....

            And sho? ....... And I remember. Only that speech, that now other times. And in the "MASHKVA STATE" the salary is the highest in the country, therefore it has become the "STATE" already. People from all over the country come here to earn money. And even more from the Caucasus and Central Asia. Moscow will soon grow to Ryazan and Smolensk. And in the times you are talking about, salaries were the same across industries throughout the country. And people could earn where they live. The only exception was the High North.
    6. marlin1203
      marlin1203 14 September 2015 09: 49 New
      -8
      Yes, managers with everyone else on the periphery also get a little, but it’s more difficult for them to get settled than engineers.
      1. marlin1203
        marlin1203 14 September 2015 20: 17 New
        +1
        And who and why does not agree then? Like a crisis, managers are reduced with a broom, because there is an abundance of them. But you cannot expel an intelligent welder, there may not be another one.
    7. Mareman Vasilich
      Mareman Vasilich 14 September 2015 10: 40 New
      +6
      But the deputies (charlatans in fact) with officials row money with a shovel. You will be looking for officials for a long time with a salary of 50 tr Their pay starts from 200-250 to infinity, plus the fact that they need to steal something else. So calculate how much money is left on the salary budget for mere mortals. In Kaluga and the region, in our country, Artamonov boasted of an average salary of 50 tr. And if you run around schools, hospitals, kindergartens, then the reality is completely different. 17-25 thousand rubles it is happiness. And then he won the election again. So now think, either people have stupefied at once, or we have "effective" managers everywhere instead of engineers.
    8. Vladimir 1964
      Vladimir 1964 14 September 2015 11: 52 New
      +4
      Quote: nebalagur
      until these very engineers there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economies and jurisdictions


      Alexander, albeit rudely said, but how accurate and capacious. You are well done.
      Let me add a little of myself.
      The worst thing is that the experts indicated by Sasha occupy almost completely a managerial niche called THE GOVERNMENT OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION, and I do not exaggerate much, type in the search engine a full name marked with education and ..., Zadornov is resting.
      Here it is like that.
      (All of the above does not apply only to Mr. Lavrov)
    9. bastard
      bastard 14 September 2015 12: 41 New
      +7
      Quote: nebalagur
      Until the attitude towards the engineer is like cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economies and jurisdictions, and the country will hire "French and Germans" ...

      Neither reduce nor add.
      And the manager, what can I say, Here is his daily routine:
    10. Tuzik
      Tuzik 14 September 2015 13: 00 New
      0
      will hire, not only 25 tyr but 25 tevr each.
    11. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 14 September 2015 15: 39 New
      +7
      Quote: nebalagur
      We change the region from “All Russia” or “Moscow” to, say, “Novosibirsk Region” and, lo and behold, the offered salaries in vacancies from 7 750 bp to 25 thousand bp average.
      Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.
      Tell me, dear, na-hua person who has given additional studies and the desire for the heights of knowledge, get a job as a janitor? am Why cram physics, sopromat, thermal bath, hydraulics, etc., if he has an average ceiling installed in 25 tyr ??? fool
      Until the attitude towards the engineer is like cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economies and jurisdictions, and the country will hire "French and Germans" ... sad

      It is this question that is the main one in the problem, you are right. Becoming an engineer is hellishly difficult. And being an engineer is poverty! Moreover, poverty, despised and hated! The situation at first glance is fantastic, but when you look terrifyingly ...
      For the growth and development of the country, its engineers must manage its productive forces. But this is - the collapse and alteration of the entire, completely entire currently existing system! We have plenty in the control of bandits and murderers. Enough of scammers. And all sorts of sons, daughters, granddaughters, members of clans, sing along with lizins. What about the engineers? But no. There is no place for them in this wonderful company.
      Long-term education. And if you bought at least one exam, at least one test - you are no longer an engineer. Why, the song is separate, but it is respected clearly. Then work, hard, exhausting ... a set of experience. Even if the son-daughter-nephew received an engineering diploma, he is so linden, that’s all.
      The current system is designed for sharing cash flows. And they somehow forgot about their generation ... they say oil and gas will forever give us money. Our business is to blow that money more beautifully ... Another time has come. And these people. Poorly...
    12. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 September 2015 17: 07 New
      +3
      nebalagur.

      And what do you think to increase the level of profitability of production if production is at the very bottom of the "food" chain.

      Let me remind you at the top who? That's right, the profitable banking system. Then who? Service sector. And below are the production workers.

      Therefore, laws must be changed. Starting from?

      Right.
    13. Revolver
      Revolver 14 September 2015 20: 07 New
      +3
      Quote: nebalagur
      Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.

      You will set engineers a salary at least at the level of the American unemployment benefit ($ 600 per week) for a young specialist, with a salary increase proportional to career growth, and there will be no end to those wishing to enter engineering specialties in the coming year. True, for the selection of suitable ones, it will be necessary, regardless of the exam, to enter entrance exams, well, at least copy the old Soviet ones.
      For that kind of money, pensioners may also want to shake the old days, and those who have left to trade in stalls may even come back with some departures. And the quality of work will be ensured by the salary - no one wants to lose it, everyone will plow like bobiks, and whoever can’t do it - go to the stall.
      But where to get the money? what Well, it will be necessary for “effective” managers to cut themselves good so that they fit into the budget, but will they do it? no
  • sherp2015
    sherp2015 14 September 2015 08: 44 New
    +7
    Quote: Kibalchish
    that engineers are not needed, but the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is a rarity.


    A simple technologist and a competent master have long been in short supply ...
    1. Evgen1964
      Evgen1964 14 September 2015 12: 40 New
      +5
      Yes, a turner, a milling machine operator and a welder (normal) have long been in short supply, they have profiled not only higher, but also secondary technical education ...
      1. bastard
        bastard 14 September 2015 13: 28 New
        +11
        Quote: Evgen1964
        Yes, a turner, a milling machine operator and a welder (normal) have long been in short supply, they have profiled not only higher, but also secondary technical education ...

        I constantly read in the announcements: “Turners, milling machines, locksmiths, etc., are required. With work experience not lower than..., Salary of job managers, etc.”
        I come to be hired, the owner - well, 25 years maximum:
        - Who are you?
        - Turner.
        - How old are you?
        - 50.
        - Nah, the young ones aren’t managed, but you can’t make any money here.

        Please look at the equipment and what kind of work is there. I go to the workshop: my mother is one! Why, Schwarzenegger will be bent in a year! Indoor 150 square meters. meters are 18 different machines, it’s not known from what rubbish that they are located anyway, like cleaning and welding, they immediately wash with gasoline (!) and sort out some gearboxes, boxes, hydraulics, they paint them in the corner of the “workshop”. Horror! among all this grandeur, among other scurrying workers, there are already 2 young turners (the old ones were dumped) with an important look (one of them nevertheless turned 20 M18 bolts before dinner, huh!) and a whole milling machine operator. A “specialist” is invited to set up gear hobbing and gear shaping from the side who “counts” guitars of the division and differential chains for them for 2-3 days (engineers and old workers will understand).
        Pichalka!
        1. IAlex
          IAlex 14 September 2015 13: 58 New
          0
          Found what to compare ...
        2. gladcu2
          gladcu2 14 September 2015 19: 14 New
          +2
          Scoundrel.

          Smiled. The familiar picture. I saw the country.

          Poor organization of labor, an international problem.
          1. bastard
            bastard 14 September 2015 20: 19 New
            +9
            Quote: gladcu2
            Smiled. The familiar picture. I saw the country.
            Poor organization of labor, an international problem.

            It is also a matter of the fact that due to experience, I did this youngster for one time. Both in terms of performance and quality. And a day later he launched a gear hobbing, the owner was stunned, realizing that he was bred. True, after 3 months I left, the chef turned out to be a misery, 15 thousand maximum. They mainly deal with repairs there, this requires serious practice and knowledge (for the most part I worked in repair services and in pilot production, where the work is very diverse, I learned from masters of Soviet hardening on the go). Managers do not understand that next to young guys there should be experienced workers, as we used to call them “grandfathers”, so that there was someone to tell if. And here the locksmiths do not know how to choose a drill for the thread. not to mention sharpening correctly, they believe that the work of a locksmith is to twist the nuts and thresh with a sledgehammer. A good, competent worker means years of practice and gaining theoretical knowledge (necessary!), No easier than becoming a fit engineer or doctor. hi
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 15 September 2015 01: 21 New
              +1
              Quote: villain
              due to experience, I did this youngster for a “time”. Both in terms of performance and quality.
              And why doesn’t it surprise me?
              Quote: villain
              the chef turned out to be a miser, 15 thousand maximum.
              In America, too. At a large enterprise, a skilled machine operator makes about $ 60K per year at the end of his career, and this does not include overtime and union benefits. But such works, the farther the less, and they are thieves - the workers are trying to arrange their children-nephews at the plant, and the trade unions are helping them in this. And in small companies they pay almost half, and the benefits are by no means unionized. And the owner can be understood - he takes it out of his pocket. By the way, with engineering positions it’s about the same - you’ll get a hell out of large enterprises, but small ones don’t pay. That’s why I spat on everything and went to programmers - the office is not a workshop, the responsibility is much less - the program even if it crashes, it will not crush anyone, and the salary of the flight received in more than one and a half times more. He left a long time ago, in the last century. So now even the engineer’s work will turn up - I won’t pull it, I restarted everything.
              1. bastard
                bastard 15 September 2015 12: 09 New
                +1
                Quote: Nagan
                And why doesn’t it surprise me?

                I just love my job, almost a fanatic. Prior to that, I tried a number of professions, worked as a pressman, as a rope operator, as a radio equipment adjuster, after the army I worked in a leshoz and a thermal train, and then I saw how turners work. I got up to the machine, after 2 weeks I passed it to the 2nd category and it stuck.
                But redneck is everywhere; my acquaintances from Germany told me the same thing.
      2. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 14 September 2015 13: 54 New
        +10
        Quote: Evgen1964
        Yes, a turner, a milling machine operator and a welder (normal) have long been in short supply, they have profiled not only higher, but also secondary technical education ...

        GDP spoke of the need to "develop the concept of secondary vocational education." Maybe rename colleges and lyceums back to “heels” and “techies”? Maybe you do not need to develop anything? Stupidly recall Soviet vocational schools?

        One year, in 93, we had a Spanish fitter, a young guy, at first broke that we used theodolite without permission (it was necessary to work, but he had a coffee break) - “a thin device, says, there’s no qualification, says "... Then he calmly calmed down when he found out that we have five people with a higher education, two with an incomplete higher education, three with a technical school, and the rest have a minimum of heel in our team of installers and high-rise assemblers from 18. And experience from 5 to 20 years. And he has a “college” and three months of internship ... He didn’t blather anymore, the show-offs flew off ...
  • user
    user 14 September 2015 08: 59 New
    +5
    For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it.


    Upon retirement, you yourself will understand why no one wants to go to engineers (pensions for public services are accrued and paid, well, much higher than ordinary engineers, sort of like yasak for loyalty that did not run to the West).
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 September 2015 19: 18 New
      +3
      I hope not to live up to retirement.
      And if you have to. That is the minimum. If my state will be preserved by that time, though in the form as it is now.

      By the way, a good country and decent people.
  • Mareman Vasilich
    Mareman Vasilich 14 September 2015 10: 32 New
    +6
    Find from old stocks. Perhaps they wanted to say so. There is nothing even to say about new engineering personnel, they simply are not. No, not only because no one wants to study as engineers. They also do not exist because their training is zero, with the current education system. We will soon be able to construct nothing except scrap and shovels.
  • aleks 62 next
    aleks 62 next 14 September 2015 12: 15 New
    +2
    ..... For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is very rare ....

    .... It’s all right .... Only engineers are not really needed - judging by the salaries (at least in our region) .... For 25 thousand people turn their brains (who knows how, but basically it's "old" hardening) and with a bunch of responsibility there aren’t any particular ones ... And why ???? .... Buy - sell a lot more income, if not sad .... As long as there is such a situation - there will be nothing worthwhile .... . request .... And the "specialists" - the shaft !!!! .... Even in the diploma they write - SPECIALIST !!!! ..... laughing
  • Zoldat_A
    Zoldat_A 14 September 2015 13: 41 New
    +4
    Quote: Kibalchish
    For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it.

    Last year, in our city, a branch of a Moscow pedagogical (!) University accepted the first year of 200 (!) People to a legal (!) Department from Ingushetia (!). I am not against the Ingush, not against lawyers studying at a pedagogical university. But! We on the Volga in the center of Russia only 200 Ingush lawyers and not enough, everything else is.

    Yes, I forgot to write - the department, of course, is paid. And the semester is like three years on correctional pedagogy ...
    1. marlin1203
      marlin1203 14 September 2015 19: 11 New
      +2
      Yes, an ordinary money-laundering. Nobody will be taught anything, and they will pay a fee. If dad then attaches by profession, it’s good, and so will the next guard-loader.
      1. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 14 September 2015 20: 04 New
        +2
        Quote: marlin1203
        They will not teach anyone anything, but they will charge. If dad then settles down by profession, it’s good, and it will be so next guard loader.
        About the fact that these unfortunate lawyers will not be taught anything - I agree on 200% - they are not required to learn, they are required to pay for training. But about the movers ... You missed the word Ingushetia. Yes, the very one about which the GDP today said that there are big social problems, that money is being pumped into it, but there is no sense ... From where in the republic, 30 years ago, which forgot what industry is, money to train its "stallists "who don’t know how to write in Russian? This is just "from there." Have you seen the cottages in Ingushetia? In our country, gypsies do not build such drugs. And they will not go with diplomas to Ingushetia. There are no lawyers for 200 lawyers throughout Ingushetia. They are again for bribes from the same money that the GDP has been looking for all day today, they will go to the bread places in our prosecutor’s office ...
  • THE_SEAL
    THE_SEAL 14 September 2015 15: 08 New
    +6
    If the management is entirely lawyers, then where will the technological breakthrough come from? Of course, everyone is eager for the civil service - it is warm and promising there. A thick oil pocket will cover all corruption unprofessionalism. And if the prime minister is a city dweller, then where should he look into the problems of the village. And if a lawyer, then, respectively, in engineering problems.
    That's just in addition to shouting about import substitution, an investment resource had to be directed to the development of our science and technology back in the fat oil years, and not to buy Peregrine Falcons from Siemens, sending their own falcon to the dump.
  • Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 14 September 2015 16: 35 New
    +1
    The fact that we (Russia) are experiencing serious problems with our own engineering potential is evidenced by the information of the All-Russian database of vacancies “Work in Russia”. The page contains a group of vacancies
    for engineers. And this is one of those groups that continues to expand actively.
    there is no visible interest of the state in this segment of engineering and technology ... there is a reduction, in vocational schools, hairdressers, makeup artists (apparently vacancies for pederasts), cooks and electricians, as an appendage. all.
  • northern
    northern 14 September 2015 20: 35 New
    0
    To make matters worse, there are no vocational schools in the country for 20 years. Accordingly, there are no skilled workers. And nowhere to take them.
  • atarix
    atarix 14 September 2015 21: 08 New
    0
    alas, not 15 but much more. since the beginning of perestroika. and even a little earlier.
  • Phantom Revolution
    Phantom Revolution 14 September 2015 23: 07 New
    +1
    Quote: Kibalchish
    For 15 years, they have been explaining to the population that engineers are not needed, and the civil service is it. So they got a whole generation of parasites. As a result, finding a decent specialist now is a rarity.

    The problem is that the salary of an ordinary manager and an ordinary engineer is about the same, in the military it seems to be even less.
    But the responsibility of an engineer is higher than the roof, you need to learn constantly by raising your qualifications, there are many times more mental stress, but the salary is like that of a manager. The question is why go to an engineer if you can trade for the same salary?
  • Armored optimist
    Armored optimist 14 September 2015 06: 20 New
    +3
    The ancient Russian name for an engineer is meaning. A man who is obliged to think.
    1. Glot
      Glot 14 September 2015 06: 44 New
      +2
      Yes, he should not reflect, but first of all, know, understand and be able to. And only then - to reflect on how to perform this or that.
      1. Armored optimist
        Armored optimist 14 September 2015 08: 28 New
        +1
        In your opinion - Lyapi somehow! ... what to do now? Thought must be ahead of action.
        1. Glot
          Glot 14 September 2015 08: 38 New
          +2
          In my opinion, you need to carefully read what they write, understanding this. That would not lyaplyat stupid things.
          And that’s exactly what if a person thinks and starts to do something, not understanding the essence of what he thinks and the principles of what he does, it turns out the devil knows what.
          A person must initially understand what he is doing or trying to do. To be trained in this, to understand in this matter, and ideally to have experience. And on the basis of all of the above, only then think how to perform this or that and, to perform some kind of action.
          Well, chewed. It is intelligible or again not understood? )))
          1. Reducer
            Reducer 14 September 2015 16: 02 New
            +1
            Funny! In wrapped up!
            It’s hard to understand without thinking
            I do it without thinking because I know
            how to be trained without experience
            Well, this construction is clearly from five-dimensional space:And that’s exactly what if a person thinks and starts to do something, not understanding the essence of what he thinks and the principles of what he does, it turns out the devil knows what.
            After this, I want to quietly sit in a corner before retiring not to climb out)))
            1. Glot
              Glot 14 September 2015 21: 49 New
              0
              Well, alas, you also misunderstood simple thoughts. )))
              You need to think !!! Without the work of the brain, well, nothing at all.
              The essence was different.
              I’ll try to explain again. With a hypothetical example.
              Suppose there are two people who have received the same task. Well, I don’t know, well, let the task be to build a water mill.
              Next.
              One of these two never engaged in anything similar, well, except that I saw in the picture what this or that similar design looks like.
              The second one knows how to do this, or already had experience building such structures.
              Both include MOSH and ... think how to do it.
              And now you think, which of them will build a working mill faster, easier, more reliable and fully working?
              In my opinion, the answer is obvious. The second, since he knows how to do it. And of course they will both think. )))
              Do you feel the difference in action and implementation?
              Differences in thoughts will not concern. ))))
              1. Reducer
                Reducer 15 September 2015 08: 52 New
                0
                Yes, that's not a fact!
                Sometimes detachment from a generally accepted school, a fresh, unintentional look gives rise to original, breakthrough, revolutionary decisions.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Stanislas
        Stanislas 14 September 2015 21: 54 New
        +2
        Quote: Glot
        Yes, he should not reflect, but first of all, know, understand and be able to
        From Latin, ingenium translates precisely as "mind." An engineer is literally thinking, inventing, but a technologist just needs to know, understand and be able to. An engineer is a technologist + engineering thinking, which, unfortunately, is rarely observed.
  • bulat
    bulat 14 September 2015 06: 33 New
    +1
    Not only to ponder, but also to make decisions.
    1. Stanislas
      Stanislas 15 September 2015 08: 39 New
      0
      Quote: bulat
      Not only to think, but also to make decisions
      Why are you sharing this process? To meditate (not to fantasize, namely to meditate) means to find arguments pros and cons of any decision. If reflection leads you to recognition need of that, and not another solution, then further you simply act as necessary. Arguments - this is what "brings" a person to a decision to act in this way and not otherwise (option: to affirm one thing and deny the contrary). Another thing is the execution of a decision made by reflection. Here new circumstances may appear that impede the execution, which, in turn, can “restart” the process of reflection (if new arguments appear), or require a person to noticeable strong-willed efforts to continue actions in this direction. Thinking is decision making.
  • kaa1977
    kaa1977 14 September 2015 06: 38 New
    +6
    Jobs then dohrena, but salaries and conditions somehow do not please and really worthy vacancies are few. So dear employers - it is necessary to take care of engineers, fight for them, and as they said above - get ordinary mechanics for such a salary.
  • Alexander 3
    Alexander 3 14 September 2015 06: 42 New
    +2
    We don’t find a young, good turner, a welder. All young people are guarded at best. Work for them too lazy. Whatever they learn, it is necessary to identify and develop abilities from childhood.
    1. CONTROL
      CONTROL 14 September 2015 08: 46 New
      +11
      Quote: Alexander 3
      All young people at best protect whatsoever. They are too lazy to work. Whatever they learn, it is necessary to identify and develop abilities from childhood.

      Yes, do not be lazy to them to work! Just anyone is able to evaluate and compare the level labor costs и the size of the salary received for this work!
      1. not main
        not main 15 September 2015 00: 21 New
        -1
        Quote: CONTROL
        Yes, do not be lazy to them to work! Just anyone is able to evaluate and compare the level of labor costs and the amount of salary received for this work!

        But for this we must also fight!
  • viacheslav77
    viacheslav77 14 September 2015 06: 42 New
    +2
    Quote: nebalagur
    We change the region from “All Russia” or “Moscow” to, say, “Novosibirsk Region” and, lo and behold, the offered salaries in vacancies from 7 750 bp to 25 thousand bp average.
    Filtration by salary gives on the first page of all 18 (eighteen) vacancies with salaries of 40 thousand rubles. and this is on xnumx jobs.
    Tell me, dear, na-hua person who has given additional studies and the desire for the heights of knowledge, get a job as a janitor? am Why cram physics, sopromat, thermal bath, hydraulics, etc., if he has an average ceiling installed in 25 tyr ??? fool
    Until the attitude towards the engineer is like cattle, until then there will be no engineers, but there will be managers, economies and jurisdictions, and the country will hire "French and Germans" ... sad

    I’ll add a little bit to go “beyond the framework of“ designing and investing a drainage pit in a summer cottage ”, but you still need to design a drainage pit. For general designers are not taken from the air.
  • moskowit
    moskowit 14 September 2015 06: 48 New
    +9
    The article is a definite plus. The author touched on the topic that is most relevant at the moment. The situation with the engineering staff is catastrophic. And there are many reasons for this. From the decline in the prestige of the profession from the middle of 80 to the fall in the level of secondary education ...
  • Signaller
    Signaller 14 September 2015 06: 48 New
    +12
    I face the problem of engineering personnel every single day. Well, we don’t have normal trained engineers. Do not cook. A graduate of a university comes, you ask him how this thing works, principle and theory (elementary thing, by the way) The answer is, I don’t know, we were not taught this. Here to shift the paper, put the paper in the copier, go to the Internet, so no problem, and the table is complicated. make a schedule, the relay is electrical-elementary, the cable to ring, I do not know. That's how we live. And most importantly, a sickly patch is offered, but they - we’d better go to a company that sells office equipment, or something else, but similar.
    1. vova1973
      vova1973 14 September 2015 11: 41 New
      +5
      they become an engineer not at a university, but at an enterprise, gaining experience (if there is a knowledge base and desire), and experience is this time.
      1. Evgen1964
        Evgen1964 14 September 2015 12: 43 New
        0
        I completely agree ++++++
      2. EGOrkka
        EGOrkka 14 September 2015 15: 30 New
        0
        vova1973
        they’re not becoming an engineer at a university,


        .... fundamentally disagree !!! An engineer should leave the university, if not, write in a mechanic diploma with the basics of an engineer ...
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 14 September 2015 19: 36 New
          0
          EGOrkka

          Listen to what vova1973 tells you. He will not teach bad.
    2. vova1973
      vova1973 14 September 2015 11: 42 New
      +1
      Yes, and someone should pass on the experience of succession
    3. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 September 2015 19: 30 New
      +3
      Signaler.

      How long have you been in the shoes of this graduate?

      No university graduate can answer how your moonshine with pedal drive works. Immediately and without careful inspection.

      But when a year or two he turns these pedals himself, then you will whine that young people are setting you up.
      When the USSR was the term "young specialist". It meant "monkey with a grant."
      Graduates need to be taught and taught. And having learned to protect.
  • Oleg-Olegovich
    Oleg-Olegovich 14 September 2015 07: 03 New
    +8
    I work "abroad", very successfully. In 2014, he tried to return, but to no avail ... engineers are not needed, judging by the proposed salary, the employer's response is standard: "And what do you want ... the labor market is like that, and even taxes ...".
  • yegor_k
    yegor_k 14 September 2015 07: 07 New
    +10
    Engineers will soon die out as a class, as Institutes prepare bachelors and masters.
    1. nebalagur
      nebalagur 14 September 2015 07: 32 New
      +11
      Institutions are preparing "lap-dogs", this Bologna system is not capable of more, I say as the last person in my office (project bureau), the average Persian: down 1:20 ratio, belay and these “promising” ones have to finish up at least a year and a half ... sad
      1. CONTROL
        CONTROL 14 September 2015 08: 52 New
        +6
        Quote: nebalagur
        Institutions are preparing "lap-dogs", this Bologna system is not capable of more, I say as the last person in my office (project bureau), the average Persian: down 1:20 ratio, belay and these “promising” ones have to finish up at least a year and a half ... sad

        ... What was directed - continuing, by the way, to function successfully - the reform of education, higher, secondary (still vocational schools, almost completely dead, little affected); well, and "to the set" (or, to the popular - to the heap ...) reform of the RAS and all, half-strangled science ...
      2. TOR2
        TOR2 14 September 2015 20: 29 New
        +2
        Quote: nebalagur
        Institutions are preparing "lap-dogs", this Bologna system is not capable of more

        Want to make the west fools? If you look in detail, this system was not invented by stupid people. The question is how perverted everything is in our reality. For example, internships generally turned into fiction. During practice, students cleaned the warehouse. What will the practice report be?
        More specifically, the drop in demand for knowledge led to the degradation of supply, and the system has nothing to do with it. And what caused it in the topic is painted in colors.
  • Free wind
    Free wind 14 September 2015 07: 28 New
    +6
    It is very difficult for a graduate to get a job, and not only for engineers. In our district hospital, the ENT worked as a half-wit grandmother, she was 82 years old, she could not be kicked out, they were young, but she immediately started scribbling blunders and the girls left. She grunted in her office about 2 months ago.
  • Palach
    Palach 14 September 2015 07: 35 New
    +14
    I have a diploma of a technologist, I planned to go to study at the institute as an engineer. But having worked on after graduation practice at the factory, he scored and went to the manager - I want to eat.
    Now I work and see a lot of "power engineers" who cannot even clearly explain what they need. Such a "dog that you need to know, but I can’t say!" Will come. It turns out that they take the same thing that was earlier, no matter what year of release, they take a picture, take off and put a replacement and connect the wires from the photo.
    It is necessary for such people to look for junk that has long been discontinued and it is unclear how it works.
    If it comes to a project, it is usually done by a sales manager. He needs to sell something to him from the sales margin, so he thinks.
    And so we live, a power engineer from a factory who expresses his thoughts at the level of a street mug and a manager who is trying to understand what he needs. What does a deaf phone like you understand.
    1. evil partisan
      evil partisan 14 September 2015 08: 05 New
      +10
      Quote: PALACH
      Now I work and see a lot of "power engineers" who cannot even clearly explain what they need.

      2002 guys came to our factory in 2. One was immediately appointed by hl. the mechanic of the workshop, the other- ch. power engineer. Ch. the mechanic cannot read blueprints properly and does not know the basics of metal processing, chap. the power engineer does not know how to pick up an electric motor for a 3-phase circuit, not to mention how to understand the circuits ... But the guys wanted to learn. I was attracted to exercise with ch. power engineer. Now one - beg. transport workshop, and the other - deputy. beg. one of the largest and most important workshops for the military commissar. Intelligent guys. Everything depends on the person.
      1. CONTROL
        CONTROL 14 September 2015 09: 04 New
        +4
        Quote: wicked partisan
        2002 guys came to our factory in 2 .... But the guys wanted to learn. I was attracted to exercise with ch. power engineer. Now one - beg. transport workshop, and the other - deputy. beg. one of the largest and most important workshops for the military commissar. Intelligent guys. Everything depends on the person.

        Well, found "evil partisans"who has something to learn (and he wants, and - most importantly - knows how to teach!); and guys with a “base” and a desire to learn ... But after all, learning involves some kind of self-restraint, effort, dedication ... This also requires "sanctions" both oneself and external ones — money is needed! And if still a family, children ... and youth! (every normal young man must, and most importantly - really wants to! - get married ...)
        ... All this should converge, as in a “scarf” ... how will the card lie down (?!) Or maybe it’s enough to lay out solitaire games, rely on “cards”? We have a state, or where? ...
      2. gladcu2
        gladcu2 14 September 2015 20: 20 New
        +2
        golden partisan

        It is you who have now described the situation correctly.

        And yet, in universities they teach not only specializations, in universities they teach to study. And this is the difference between a narrow specialist and an engineer.
    2. klaus16
      klaus16 14 September 2015 08: 09 New
      +7
      I agree. The reserve officer himself, I have been working as a power engineer for many years, self-taught. I meet with graduates from those. universities and just fucking awesome. Where is the knowledge that I would love to receive at the institute, but know it myself? They are not here. The only ones with whom you can still communicate on equal terms are the inspectors from Rosstekhnadzor. And the young do not pull, if not sad.
      1. provincial
        provincial 14 September 2015 10: 37 New
        +1
        September 8.09 - working time, and you are already in the military review, good work.
        1. evil partisan
          evil partisan 14 September 2015 12: 12 New
          0
          Quote: provincial
          September 8.09 - working time, and you are already in the military review, good work.

          I can afford wink . Specificity, so to speak, allows repeat .
  • kebeskin
    kebeskin 14 September 2015 07: 56 New
    +4
    Now an engineer outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg receives an average of 25. Having graduated the first year, I worked for 12 thousand rubles a month. Moreover, 1 person performs work for 3 different. Gained experience. Then he gradually changed his place of work several times. As a result, I got a job with an RFP 40k month. At the same time, now it’s easier to work as a simple manager while working. While the manager receives 45, and engineer 25, the situation will not change much. Education passed to masters and bachelors. Bachelor is an unlearned specialist. It's good that I managed to finish the university while still being an engineer (specialist).

    And here is what employers are offering now. There is something to ponder:

    A gold mining company is required storage system administrator. Work in the office. In the subject line, indicate the name of the vacancy FULLY
    Duties
    LAN Layout
    Installation and maintenance of video surveillance
    Computer hardware setup
    Acceptance at the warehouse, storage, movement and delivery from the warehouse of various material values: spare parts, parts, tools, etc.
    Inventory
    Moving wealth
    Requirements
    A confident PC user
    Knowledge 1C
    Ability to work in multitasking mode
    MANDATORY presence of l \ a
    1. Svetlana
      Svetlana 14 September 2015 09: 28 New
      +6
      Quote: kebeskin
      system administrator-storekeeper.

      I need a worker:
      Cook, groom and carpenter.
      And where can I find this
      A minister is not too expensive?
      Pushkin
    2. aniza
      aniza 14 September 2015 10: 53 New
      +3
      you probably forgot, responsibilities also include:
      Hadron Collider setup and maintenance
      cleaning in the director’s office

      wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat wassat
    3. Bator
      Bator 14 September 2015 18: 16 New
      +1
      An engineer came to us from SWSU 3 years ago (or rather, they found that they promised I did not know) knows English, German and Italian. Salary he was given 8 thousand (well, in a circle no more than 15). After 3 months he was "lured" to Stary Oskol. Our leadership was very lamented: "... we can say he found in the garbage dump ...", and he escaped !!! A year later, I met him by accident. We talked ... Leading engineer at the enterprise, they immediately gave the service apartment (now I bought a three-ruble mortgage) and a child in kindergarten. With us, he would now receive no more than 15 and work for 10 without any prospect. And you say engineer everywhere in price.
    4. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 September 2015 20: 25 New
      +2
      System administrator storekeeper.

      Baba Dusya worked all her life as a storekeeper in a convoy 26. She found out what her workplace is called, got scared and quit.
  • evil partisan
    evil partisan 14 September 2015 07: 56 New
    +4
    The thing is that the company is trying to get the right to create and implement a project without having sufficient potentials. And as soon as such a right is obtained (suddenly) by it, throwing themselves from side to side, at least in terms of searching for qualified personnel who could do the design, will manifest themselves.
    How familiar is it ... It seems that the company has passed licensing, received a readiness certificate, and as soon as it is necessary to start work, the races to attract technicians, specialists, etc. begin. As a rule, all this ends with a postponement, a decrease in the quality of work ... Capitalism, what. The main thing is to win the tender, and then we'll figure it out ...
  • drags33
    drags33 14 September 2015 08: 02 New
    +10
    The engineering school of Russia urgently needs to be revived !!! But no matter how late it was ... In high school, too, the Teachers are not immortal, and the good, not old, personnel are washed out into the industry, where the pay is many times higher. And in the Ministry of Education and Science a stash of "tolerant liberals," innovators "pests," who continue to ruin the high school at an accelerated pace, has formed. Engineers leave the industry for natural reasons, and replenishment of engineering personnel NO !!! This is a direct threat to the security and sovereignty of Russia! And now - everyone knows and understands everything, and things are still there ... Vladimir Vladimirovich, you would not be worried about Armat now, but the engineering staff who create these very Armats ...
  • Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 14 September 2015 08: 17 New
    +29
    Oh, come on, "full of engineering jobs." And what are these "vacancies"? I myself personally recently went around a decent number of enterprises in one large city, in search of a more attractive place, so to speak. So what? Never mind. Everywhere are required "not older than 35 years, with experience of" 10-15 years "and qualifications not lower than" foreman of the site "or" leading engineer ", etc.". This is the first. Secondly, the salary, it does not exceed ... 20-30 thousand rubles. Even if the announcement says that the salary is “from 40 thousand rubles,” you’re actually told that the type of announcement is “out of date”, “hanging for a long time”, “you know the crisis,” “such a salary will be, but then” and so on. And so far, 20-30 thousand rubles, but "officially" only 16-18 thousand. The rest is "premium". We know about the “prizes”; we have passed and are passing it. Now the third one is "they take the bull by the horns", they say: "keep in mind you will work under the contract - 4-6 months minimum wage, such as a probationary period, plus internship, and then ... then no sick leave, maximum one week, vacation- two UNPAID weeks in the winter and two UNPAID weeks in the summer. Do not like it? -On the door. Four-working day and duties ... and it is 8 hours, not including lunch break, in some places and working Saturday, you start to figure out duties, you start to find out and for myself and “for that guy” it immediately becomes clear why people are “required” in this enterprise. In general, I recalled how, in the days not quite long ago, Mr. P. rushed to the presidency and made himself such a cool “industrial entrepreneur” like everything that was achieved “on your own.” In those days they liked to show gatherings with this gentleman on TV, on which he broadcast how well he worked at his enterprises and how awesome it would be for all toilers if he came to power. studied puncture, in one gear, the man who worked at one of his enterprises, began to say not what they wrote to him, but what really is about the arbitrariness of managers, about low wages, about the lawlessness of bosses and the humiliated position of workers, etc. Well, word for word, and in the end, our gentleman could not stand it and let it slip: “Never! Hear never, he will not receive at my enterprises any drunk mechanic or engineer as much as my manager receives! Ideally, you should work for a bowl of pottage and be glad that they didn’t take it away either! Unfortunately, this is not possible ... not yet possible. "
    1. RiverVV
      RiverVV 14 September 2015 08: 31 New
      +4
      Well, let's say the "young" pay a big salary, as it were, and for nothing. When else will he get involved in work and will he get involved at all? Here you are not here. In production, it can rain from acid, or from alkali. Noisy, dirty and not at all fun. And I want a big salary right away and so I don’t have to work hard.

      Meanwhile, an engineer - he is the manager, by definition. The head. And this is where the hell is taught. Only in place, with specific people harnessed.
      1. Uzzy
        Uzzy 14 September 2015 08: 57 New
        +7
        Well, let's say the "young" pay a big salary, as it were, and for nothing.

        Correctly! Why the hell did he study for a specialist at a university up to 5-6 years old ?! But the waiter, delivering drinks, will receive 30000 + bonuses. Here it is justice!
        Ps Engineer is a very responsible profession, requiring knowledge of a large regulatory framework and continuous improvement.
      2. Polite Moose
        Polite Moose 14 September 2015 12: 47 New
        +6
        Quote: RiverVV
        Meanwhile, an engineer - he is the manager, by definition. The head. And this is where the hell is taught. Only in place, with specific people harnessed.


        I will add a little.
        An engineer can turn out to be a good manager (examples of Korolev, Shipunov, Potkin, and many others). And it’s not just that an engineer, an intelligent fitter, will not come out of a manager.
        I don’t know, this is what should happen so that “upstairs” realize that it’s time not to produce unfinished managers, but full-fledged engineers to train and grow. Moreover, life already has a wrench in the head. And we all sit and wait, the year oil prices will rise again.
        1. RiverVV
          RiverVV 14 September 2015 12: 58 New
          -2
          An engineer can turn out from a manager. The thing is the desire to work. When I was hired by an operator three years ago, I didn’t start reading instructions, but climbed onto a bookcase to study block lines. Two weeks later, the chief engineer calls me and says: "I need a technologist." "But I don’t know much yet and in general I’m an ammoniac, but here everything is new for me." "Don't f ... t!"
          Of course, you could refuse and get your twenty thousand. I would wash my special clothes every six months and go on vacation ...
          1. IAlex
            IAlex 14 September 2015 13: 52 New
            0
            I neighing, and why are you a technologist and know thoroughly the theory of materials and the processes that you are involved in, or just know how the technological equipment works well?
            1. RiverVV
              RiverVV 14 September 2015 14: 45 New
              +2
              God have mercy! Who is stopping you to laugh? You can still pinch the grass.
            2. gladcu2
              gladcu2 14 September 2015 20: 52 New
              0
              Alex.

              But what is actually complicated. He read, appreciated in practice. It is not written in Latin there. Well, if in Latin. He sat down for 3 months, taught and read in Latin.

              Motivation is important.
    2. goose
      goose 14 September 2015 10: 30 New
      +4
      This is the sad truth of our stupid and uneducated management, which takes revenge on the engineering corps. Because communication doesn’t work at work: on the part of managers, there is complete incompetence and unwillingness to delve into the process. Technicians are screened in every way from the ability to influence decision making. Nonsense, but this is so everywhere.
    3. Obstructia
      Obstructia 14 September 2015 21: 01 New
      +2
      Of course, we are talking about engineers, but in agricultural it is still worse: s / n thousand 10-12, six days. Sick? Yes, do not bring Allah, for from the salary of thousands, so 3-4 will remain at best. And at the same time, all the drivers "whine" with their hands that the youth "are now lazy and do not want to work."
    4. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 14 September 2015 21: 57 New
      +3
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      "Never !, Hey never, he will not receive at my enterprises any drunk mechanic or engineer as much as my manager receives! Ideally, you should work for a bowl of pottage and be glad that they didn’t take it!

      Well, so Mr. P pathetically promised to start the production of cars. Not to trade in their favor with what the “dwarves are digging up,” but to start production. And what? Engineers developed it ... but he himself was blown away. It was necessary to solve just these very managerial tasks - to agree with future allies, to build production and supply cycles ... was blown away. Together with his managers.
      As it turned out, the former trade union is available three skills - to steal, share and issue skis. Everything. Mr. P is not capable of more, like everyone else. Dead end. No, he can kill someone, with the wrong hands and so that he will not be imprisoned. It also seems to be a skill ... but it somehow does not lead Russia out of the production deadlock. We got rid of the reforms, and shamefully got offended.
  • Million
    Million 14 September 2015 08: 46 New
    +4
    There will be a good salary, there will be engineers
  • HAM
    HAM 14 September 2015 08: 51 New
    +8
    I’m shocked by the current “engineers”: remember, students of electrical engineering universities had a joke - HOW DOES THE TRANSFORMER WORK? "- UUUUU !!" So the joke turned into a reality, unfortunately, few can explain it intelligently how does it work all the same .. I BELIEVE that all these are the fruits of different testing and the transition to Western teaching methods that teach not to think, but to "manage".
    1. Monster_Fat
      Monster_Fat 14 September 2015 09: 17 New
      +8
      Oh, this "western type" of work, education, etc. The "test" training system in the West was introduced for one simple reason — to quickly train a NARROW specialist. You see, NARROW. That is, in the "West" the specialists are very NARROW: yes, they know a lot and can do a lot, but in a very limited area and perform a very limited number of duties. And here we have this “narrow” training system with whose “easy hand” it has been applied to specialists of a WIDE profile! That is, in the west at the place where we have ONE engineer, usually 0-3, or even 4-5 engineers or specialists! A Western specialist, having come to us in Russia, is simply awesome of the fact that we require him to fulfill such a range of duties that they carry out by a whole group of engineers or specialists.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. HAM
        HAM 14 September 2015 10: 20 New
        +1
        Sorry, but what about the basic knowledge of mathematics, electro (heating technology), etc., because you DO NOT GET THESE TESTS!? An engineer is an engineer for that, to have FULL an idea of ​​the processes that are taking place, rather than occupying “your own hearth”, there are techniques for this, although they are more competent than any other engineer.
        1. Monster_Fat
          Monster_Fat 14 September 2015 11: 40 New
          +1
          The fact is that "in the West" a lot of what we do "engineers" in their posts, people do absolutely no engineering background, the so-called "specialists" - "Technicians" - it can be anyone, in mostly people who just passed special training courses.
  • aniza
    aniza 14 September 2015 09: 28 New
    +3
    And this is one of those groups that continues to expand actively. At the time of preparation of the material, the all-Russian base provided more than 1600 engineering vacancies in Moscow alone. In all regions, the number of vacancies exceeded 16,2 thousand.


    Bench press in Ulyanovsk. Graduated from UlSTU in 2012. (Department of Radio Engineering). I work the Vedas. an engineer. Salary: 12 tr (salary) + 4 tr (premium for a month.) + 8 tr (part-time, repair printers at night or assemble (I design, order, assemble and test myself) on the side of the device for Muscovites) + 6t. (scholarship in graduate school) = 30 TR
    Costs: TR 15 (credit, mortgage 15 years), 3,5 tr (utility) = 18,5 tr
    Wife on maternity + child. 11,5 tr you cannot deny yourself anything. belay

    ps he who wants, he learns.
    1. IAlex
      IAlex 14 September 2015 13: 41 New
      -2
      I advise you to do 1C, and score on all this engineering crap. There will be something to support his wife and child.
      Then you can learn EJB and life will succeed ...
      1. I am
        I am 14 September 2015 22: 14 New
        +1
        I am a specialist for 1s, a former, alas, female engineer. IN TOPKA 1C !!!!! In the furnace stupidity !!!!!! Give a normal job ...... so no, and I have to buy myself everything beautiful to work with 1s, including ..... alas. but I don’t like it. I AM ABOUT DESIGNING COMPLEX TECHNOLOGICAL OBJECTS in T = FLEX, but besides exhibitions, nobody needs it request
  • Evgeniy-111
    Evgeniy-111 14 September 2015 09: 44 New
    +6
    ALL engineers start with school labor lessons and technical circles!
    Have the Trudovik men in schools left somewhere ?!
    And equipped technical circles?
    Young people simply DO NOT KNOW what technical CREATIVITY is !!!
    In Stavropol, we have 45 technology teachers left for 2 schools - men!
    And in the rest of the schools they teach maximum modeling and beadwork. The technical circle in the city (more or less way) remained ONE !!! For 450 thousand people.
    What import substitution is there! What will come to the university after sewing with a cross ?!
    1. I am
      I am 14 September 2015 22: 15 New
      0
      a philosophy of environmental issues with a social bias is what comes. crying
  • aniza
    aniza 14 September 2015 10: 04 New
    +6
    And by the way about the meneger. I made here one simple device for measuring the thermal conductivity of certain substances. The customer managed all this stuff (bp + controller board + cooling and heating system) with a salary of 100 tr (not only with my zp, of course, I also attracted a turner). I gave the device. Of course, I wrote my contact phone number in the instructions and how to contact me. About a month later, they called me from Penza (a customer from Moscow). Conversation:
    Caller - Hello, we bought your device.
    when turned on, the device generates a calibration error and refuses to work. And yes, there are strange dents on the case.
    I - and what kind of error is it that you and who do my device get to?
    the caller - we ordered this device in St. Petersburg in one LLC ....
    I - if not a secret, then how much did this device cost you under the contract?
    the caller - wait a second ..... under the contract, the development and implementation of this device was 450 tr
    I am - belay . send to Ulyanovsk at the address ....
    the caller - and why there, we in LLC .... bought
    I - I think that they will not be able to blacken it for you.
    the caller - I will try to call them and still make them take the costs
    ,,,,,,,,,,
    etc.

    in the end, when the device arrived back to us, I was amazed.
    в metal the device’s body had a through hole .... fool
    I would be surprised if it worked.

    The device was resold 3 times.
    and even the finished device could not be brought to the customer recourse . And we are talking about import substitution.
    The price rose 4,5 times. crying It's a shame, chees
    Bottom line: Menegerers are able to work with us (hands are only crooked)
  • denis6064
    denis6064 14 September 2015 10: 23 New
    +1
    The thing is that the company is trying to get the right to create and implement a project without having sufficient potentials. How she gets this right is no secret to anyone
  • olimpiada15
    olimpiada15 14 September 2015 10: 49 New
    +2
    What is there to be surprised, the whole neoliberal business comes down to a buy-sell situation, and everyone is used to selling anything, even if it becomes obvious that you are already selling what is someone else's property.
    But engineers must be taught, first specialties must be taught, then taught to work.
    Remember the Soviet times: while studying, a practitioner in a specialty, after graduation, distribution and three years was given to the former student to become a real engineer.
    It’s just that the law forbade the dismissal of young specialists for three years, but because the number of employees was limited by the staffing list, we had to include it in the work, and so engineers were raised (of course, enthusiasts always shared their experience, but not all of them).
    What we see now, a student comes to practice and does the work of an auxiliary worker, after the end of the practice, the problem is how to write a report if you have not received any knowledge? The most persistent and wealthy do not agree to work and collect the necessary materials, and they dismiss them as flies, but, having persisted, receive answers to questions, but not practical knowledge.
    After graduation, getting a job is a problem, everyone needs work experience, but in general an engineer does not need much, all hope for the purchase of high-quality equipment.
    I will give an example. The machine from the import line was defective, as the shop masters said, the problem was in the shaft. And, only when the son went through practice in this workshop, she learned that the type of connection was found in the equipment that did not correspond to the load, he counted and replaced it with another, though this remained in the graduation project.
    And the problem of finding a young specialist is the problem of why to keep specialists, because the equipment was purchased new from firms with a good recommendation, we can do without our specialists.
    But, when the equipment is purchased by efficient managers, they save on that part of the technological chain, due to the lack of which production becomes unprofitable. The company goes bankrupt, costs are huge, there is nothing to cover losses, the state does not receive taxes.
    These are the gifts presented by the liberal system of the economy, where everything is focused on making a profit here and now.
    1. aniza
      aniza 14 September 2015 11: 00 New
      +1
      how to teach, how to teach? if you open any "murzilka" and there it is written in Russian in white:
      required: seller consultant- z.p. from 35t.r.
      it is required: the engineer the adjuster of the ChPU machine - zp from 15t.r.

      Face advertisement fellow have arrived !!!
  • Dragon-y
    Dragon-y 14 September 2015 10: 57 New
    +5
    While the engineer receives less than the seller of cell phones - nothing to talk about.
  • Manul
    Manul 14 September 2015 10: 59 New
    +3
    The system of our elite is built only so that the elite "earned" and received kickbacks. Announce now at least a five-year period, promise salaries, a return to the previous education system .. It is unlikely that something will help when the redistribution of cash flows is the main thing that they do in the state administration system. Well, they will never be imprisoned - there is mutual responsibility.
  • VSkilled
    VSkilled 14 September 2015 11: 32 New
    +2
    If the "Director of All Russia" were I ...

    I would order to create in each industries its domestic enterprise using exclusively domestic materials and technologies.

    Subsidized enterprises, but small ones. Therefore, it would not be worth the treasury too much money.

    It would be a kind of "seed fund" from which, if necessary, it would be possible to quickly grow a whole industry of real, rather than declared import substitution.

    For, there would be both proven technologies and relevant specialists. All that had to be done was to produce purely quantitative growth, and this, in the presence of the two components listed above, is very simple.

    PS. An engineer with extensive experience. I can, alone, make an entire device. With a full set of production documentation. To say that the quality of education of today's youth is depressing to say the least - not to say anything.

    Yes, it is understandable: the engineering corps systematically spread rot and "exterminated as a class." What is there, if the Guarantor himself, “on the blue eye”, admitted that they had in the government, during the EBN, openly (!) CIA curators.

    Humanities unleash wars, and techies win. Techies are getting smaller. A worthy replacement for myself, for now - I do not see ...
  • Taoist
    Taoist 14 September 2015 11: 39 New
    +3
    The main problem is not even salaries and other things ... the problem is that the “connection of the times” has been “broken” - the training system for both workers and engineers has been destroyed. Old people are extinct, who will teach?
    In the USSR, specialist training began with school, with the CPC. From my own experience, I remember how we mastered the profession of a lathe machine operator for two years, walked one day a week and stood at a machine shift. Each was assigned a master mentor. Even those who later did not find this useful — but poorly they taught poorly how to work with their hands and their heads. Again - the next step was vocational schools, then technical schools, then universities. It was not just engineers who trained, but practitioners.
    In our military school, in addition to all, there was such a discipline as "military repair" - i.e. aircraft repair in the field. They taught me how to rivet, cook, weave ropes ... It gave me good skills and understanding “through my hands” how it works, works and interacts in such a complex object as a modern airplane.
    Alas, now it is this practical aspect that has almost completely disappeared from our lives. Young people come who don’t really know the theory, and on the topic of doing something “by hands” in general ... But the world doesn’t stand on “manager-lawyers” - the world is on those who create the same “mat.value” redistribution which the bulk of people then engage in. So it turns out as in the old saying "one with a bipod - seven with a spoon." And the most offensive is that this is perceived as the norm.
    1. Monster_Fat
      Monster_Fat 14 September 2015 11: 51 New
      +1
      You are right, we had a small “revolution” in our heads that simply wasn’t noticed by those who are supposed to, namely, in “our time” we thought like this: “there isn’t something? Do it yourself!”, And now everyone has heads: "there is nothing? find money and buy!" That's all.
  • ULxaw86
    ULxaw86 14 September 2015 11: 53 New
    0
    Quote: CONTROL
    Quote: klaus16
    Manager, which, if it’s easier to say, is a reseller,

    The manager in tsarist Russia was ... at the merchants, called - clerk.

    Well, in the aftermath of the well-known events of 17gg, being among the educated people was at least not safe. Long live the proletariat! Land-peasants, factories-workers, etc.
    He worked for 5 years as an engineer-technologist. for 10-20t.r. Now the operator at the station. with CNC. (30-40t.r). Guys say in Soviet times, this ratio was 150 rubles against 300 rubles.
    And the workers as well as the engineers are no longer needed by and large. there is China! There s / n 100 $ / month.
  • aviator1913
    aviator1913 14 September 2015 11: 56 New
    +1
    Well, as far as humanitarian education is concerned, all the same, they also need it. He himself has an engineering (1 higher_) and economic (2 higher) education. As a result, both are affected by the salary, as a result of which I apply for and receive positions that are not commensurate with the experience, simply as a result of the availability of skills and education.
    1. IAlex
      IAlex 14 September 2015 13: 30 New
      +1
      To claim and receive in the Russian Federation in 99% does not depend on either education or skills, I know from my own experience. It depends on the connections and the case ... My salary ranged from 23.000 to 120.000 calmly, depending on the job. The shitty the job and the less associated with engineering the more dough. For example, when I worked as an ordinary 1C configurator, I got 120, and for example, as a leading circuit designer, I received 23.000 rubles. The difference between them is how many years I spent preparing, for a circuit-programmer-programmer I spent 9.5 years (5.5 years institute + 4 years of practice), the result was 23.000 and the developed equipment, and 1 months on the 2C configurator. The result - 100.000 - 120.000 and the implementation of projectors such as writing reports, and chains of documents ...
  • Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 14 September 2015 13: 55 New
    0
    The "salary problem" largely comes from the area in which money is spinning and how quickly it is turning around. It is clear that the bulk of the money "spins" not in production, but in redistribution and service — that is, in trade, banking, media, advertising, servicing these sectors, etc. Therefore, you don’t have to wait for “high” salaries in production, as simple as that, there is no "big money" and a "quick" "turn" of this money.
  • akm8226
    akm8226 14 September 2015 14: 17 New
    +7
    Have you realized? And when millions of highly qualified engineers went nowhere, just to feed a family - how's that? I am one of them. I repair cars to feed my family. He worked at the enterprise of the Minsudmash as a design engineer for half his life. I can’t boast not to say that I still need to look for such an engineer. One example is when the NEP began in the Baltic States, I myself, alone, designed a gearbox for a mini-tractor of the Kirovets type. All calculations and working drawings are made by me personally. Under my leadership, three copies of the gearbox were made in metal at the plant and successfully tested at the stand - I also designed the stand.
    So there you go.
  • dmb
    dmb 14 September 2015 14: 57 New
    -3
    Article and comments - you won’t read without tears. To blame for our poor life today (I list as the guilt decreases): the State Department, Ukrainians, Zionists, liberal oligarchs, just liberals, patriotic oligarchs, lawyers, economists, traffic cops. And do not you think dear colleagues that our party and government are composed entirely of engineers, the result was about the same, if not worse. Of course, you can do without the State Department, Zionists and oligarchs, but hardly the rest. Even without traffic cops you can not do, because the engineers also drive drunk, exceed speed and do not pass pedestrians on the "zebra".
  • brats
    brats 14 September 2015 14: 59 New
    0
    On the lack of fish, and in the 21st century, one can consider not the number of engineers, but engineering problems.
  • Dan Slav
    Dan Slav 14 September 2015 15: 09 New
    +3
    The main problem of import substitution is workers and engineers. There are neither one nor the other.
    Stalin understood this and drove the people to vocational schools, technical schools, and institutes.
    We are being driven into sellers, guards and thieves. Until this is cured, nothing will happen.
    Workers, engineers, researchers and scientists are not done instantly or even in a year.
    You need to understand that you still need a school! It needs a generation of experience that needs to be maintained and studied.
    So there will be nothing! Do not entertain yourself with illusions! Especially DAM looks funny here.
    Yes, and the right words and bad things GDP just will not help here!
    1. Pathfinder_II
      Pathfinder_II 14 September 2015 21: 12 New
      0
      Everyone needs ready-made and wizards, so that without the necessary tools, without the necessary design, modeling, they immediately “plow” the finished super-duper product and work in violation of the laws of physics.
  • BMW
    BMW 14 September 2015 15: 34 New
    +1
    I read the comments - sad sadness. The fate of the techie is nowhere worse, I know for myself. They do not appreciate it, even if there is no close replacement, at least some kind of parody.
    But in the elections, almost unanimously for United Russia.
    I asked my friend’s wife, she works as a primary school teacher, why, because all kinds of extra allowances and part-time jobs are being cut - she sits with her eyes clapping, can’t say anything intelligible.
    In the head of people, porridge and urine, the thinker has eroded, and you are talking about high.
  • L10n77
    L10n77 14 September 2015 16: 27 New
    +3
    Guys, and the saddest thing is that the army also does not need engineers, I retire after 3 years, and about 10 people left from our graduation profile, the rest went into the frames, mob, org. etc., but there is no youth, and there will be no hike before retirement, and then they are surprised why the planes are falling and their engines are burning, and because even they are not able to check the fuel quality now, not to mention the engine adjustments. Correctly, it’s better to sit in the warm office in the study and shift the paperwork and draw up lesson schedules than to work with the plane in the wind and cold, and the captain is the limit for an engineer, and in headquarters it’s from major and higher.
  • iouris
    iouris 14 September 2015 17: 53 New
    +2
    Engineers without production - das east fiction!
  • rennim
    rennim 14 September 2015 19: 22 New
    +4
    We have enough engineers in the city. Yes, they have nowhere to work ... And where there is, they pay a penny. I personally get the impression that Russia does not need engineers. It’s understandable that everything around is imported and all the cycles are only assembled. There’s no development anywhere. Maybe it’s just in the military-industrial complex. Besides, you don’t have to confuse engineering vacancies. Now engineers and labor protection engineers are most often required. Designers are also in construction. there is almost no demand for engineering designers.
  • Governor
    Governor 14 September 2015 20: 50 New
    +1
    But the state program "in every park in the temple" is being successfully implemented ... The secret (suspicious, conspiracy theological, something that they had only thought about before going to bed) becomes obvious.
  • Zubilo
    Zubilo 14 September 2015 20: 53 New
    +1
    I’m just an engineer, from Ukraine. What Western companies are we talking about? Which of them will get in touch with engineering fly-by-night from Russia? From my own experience I will say that Russia gives many outsourcing projects to Ukraine! Our engineer’s salary, in recalculation, is 6–9 thousand rubles (and this is considered “not bad”), and the leading engineer is 12–15 thousand (“generally rich”). The time and amount of work is astonishing: if a Russian contractor asks for 3 months and "a couple of millions," then we are subcontracted for 3 weeks and 120 thousand rubles. And with us it will be considered a great success. The difference and produces so hateful to you "managers".
  • Pathfinder_II
    Pathfinder_II 14 September 2015 21: 02 New
    -1
    I worked a lot where, including twice at military enterprises as a programmer and an electronic engineer. And I can say one thing (summing up and not going into numerous details): Yes, you all went to Learn!
    The only employer for whom I want to be an engineer is myself. At the moment, I am engaged in frank idleness (such as working), I have a monthly financial influx of 40 (income from one “job”) + 5 (income from another) + 17 + 1,5 (scholarship in the magistracy) = 63,5 rubles . I study for a veterinarian (-38 krub / year) and for a master's degree in processes and devices in the food industry.
  • michajlo
    michajlo 15 September 2015 01: 04 New
    +1
    PathFinder_II (2) SU Yesterday, 21:02

    I worked a lot where, including twice at military enterprises as a programmer and an electronic engineer. And I can say one thing (summing up and not going into numerous details): Yes, you all went to Learn!


    Welcome all!

    I do not agree with your opinion Alex. Regarding the fact that you earn well and study, I am happy for you sincerely.

    But what the majority of engineers and technicians write here, technicians, engineers, technologists, repairmen, Alas, THE TRUTH.

    And engineers as such, you will only find between us the old guard, about youth, I can say little good.
    Little experience, minimum knowledge, but at least plenty of ambition and conceit.

    And I want to note one flaw inherent in all specialists without exception in the countries of the post-USSR.
    Everyone “knows everything” and “everyone understands” !?
    And often before hearing the end of the sentence from a more experienced colleague about the principle of operation, disassembly and troubleshooting ...
    But when you ask them, what do you know? Answer: "Uh ..."
    What do you understand? Answer: "Yyy ..."
    To say that I “do not know something, I hear for the first time” is the recognition of my own inferiority!
    And I having
    - 1st doctor’s diploma (Pediatric physician, specialization and practice "Pediatric Anesthetist" incomplete 7 years)
    - and the 2nd diploma "Radio Engineering", obtained in addition to medical practice, in absentia from the 2nd to the 6th year,
    and have been working for the past 25 years in the field of industrial automation, instrumentation, commissioning, commissioning, repair, maintenance, of which almost 17 are abroad,
    I’m not shy that in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, or here in Russia, ask anyone who has heard an unfamiliar word or term: What is it? Tell and explain please.

    And “the royal crown never fell from my head” even once, and I do not consider myself stupid or armless.

    But the real earnings are LOW and the prestige of engineering, very low and the low-income specialties themselves ...
    I’m still fine, in addition to work, I also periodically make translations from Czech, Slovak, English, and there are additional money, although not much.

    So far, I have not reached the desired medical instrumentation, pharmaceutical production, or food production, where I can apply, in addition to technology, my knowledge from medicine, biochemistry, pharmacology, and hygiene, but since I have only been in Russia for a year.

    But let's see what the future will bring to me?

    Michael, Smolensk.
    1. Pathfinder_II
      Pathfinder_II 23 September 2015 13: 31 New
      +1
      I also do not hesitate to ask if I don’t know / don’t understand / don’t know how. I do not consider myself an expert / navel of the earth / the ultimate truth. I have 1001 flaws and a knowledge gap. To the extent of my abilities and the availability of strength, I am trying to fill in the gaps. But I am against the a priori statement that someone is "a specialist because he ... (he has been working in this profession for a long time, he is n * my age, he has such and such a diploma / medal, etc.)." We need an argument / explanation, and not just a rejection of the idea you proposed. And in our industry - "I’m the boss, you / oh you are, ** cancer is a forbidden word on the site :-) /", there is no trust in the hired specialists, there is no separation of powers, there is no mentoring. I am already 40 and it is unlikely that I can achieve anything in the engineering field, and it is from this that my message comes. For me, the knowledge gained at the institute may well prove to be useful. And the fact that the state has lost the “labor unit” in my face is poher for me, it is generous with us.
  • Military Builder
    Military Builder 15 September 2015 05: 24 New
    +1
    Quote: Nagan
    I didn’t want to trade in a stall or join a gang, but where else would an engineer go? But he was not one of the worst ones - in less than 5 years, not everyone has grown from a graduate to a leading designer. Now, even if I wanted to go back to the Kuhlmann, it would not work, all that I knew and knew how to restarted over the years. And, judging by what salaries are offered, nobody needs it.

    I have a similar situevina, after graduating from university in 94, I worked as a design engineer for 2 years, not a job but a song, but the organization was closed, the people were dispersed, only I didn’t fall off the hill, I remained at home, and for almost 20 years I’m a manager.
  • Crown
    Crown 16 September 2015 21: 26 New
    +1
    It's time to take up education, I propose Shoigu to the post of Minister of Education! winked