Military Review

"After all, he took Sevastopol 250 days, and we kicked him out in three days and even less"

29
The letters 167 of the teacher of mathematics Ivan Viktorovich Shamarov are stored in the Documentation Center of the newest stories Rostov Region, which was established on the basis of the former party archive of the Rostov CPSU Regional Committee by decision of the Rostov Regional Executive Committee of October 11 1991 of the year number 242 in accordance with the decree of the President of the RSFSR On Party Archives of August 24 1991 of the year.




The documentary heritage of the closed departmental archive of the CPSU was integrated into the system of the State Archival Service of the Russian Federation. As of January 1, 2015, the Documentation Center stores the 3 704 1, the 142 525 storage units. The general chronological framework of documents reflecting the sociopolitical history of southern Russia covers the period from the end of the 19th century to the 2010 year. This array of sources contains many documents on the history of the Great Patriotic War. By species, they are divided into management documents and documents of personal origin.

The center is regularly completed with documents of personal origin, systematically combined into collection collections, the authors of the documents are both famous scientists, local historians, public figures, and ordinary citizens. The collection-collections “Don Sports Veterans”, “Veterans of the Great Patriotic War”, “Don Komsomol Veterans” collections have been formed and continue to be replenished; the “Children of War” is being formed.

In 2004, Vladimir Ivanovich Shamarov handed over to the Center the documents for the personal origin of his father, Ivan Viktorovich Shamarov (1911-1945). The collection consisted of 16 cases and was assigned to the Don Veterans Sports Collection Fund, since in 1930-ies Ivan Shamarov was actively engaged in free-style wrestling with trainer A.G. Pustynnikov in the sports society "Dinamo" (Rostov-on-Don). Among the materials transferred are personal documents, letters from Ivan Shamarov, letters and memories of fellow-friends about him; the manuscript of the story "And he wanted to live," written by his son Vladimir in memory of his father; collection of photos.

Typical biography

The biography of Ivan Shamarov was typical of many young people born on the eve of 1917. The son of a blacksmith worker, in 1929-1934 he served as a sailor in the Black Sea navy. At the end of the service, he entered the rabfak of the Rostov Pedagogical Institute, then to the Teacher Institute at the Physics and Mathematics Faculty. In 1938 he graduated from the institute and, together with his wife Pelageya Fedorovna Shamarova (a graduate of the same institute), was sent to work in a school in the Oryol district of the Rostov region. From August 1940 to September 1941 he worked as a teacher of mathematics at school No. 43 of the city of Rostov-on-Don. In September 1941 he was drafted into the ranks of the Red Army. A wife with three children born in 1937, 1938 and 1940 was evacuated from Rostov-on-Don to the Zavetinsky district of the Rostov Region.

167 letters are invaluable testimony to a “living” story.

The documents deposited in the Center include a unique collection of 167 letters sent by Ivan Viktorovich from the front from 4 September 1941 of the year to 14 of May 1945 of the year - invaluable evidence of a “living” story. This collection is complemented by seven letters from Ivan's front-line comrades, dated May-November 1945, sent to the widow after the death of a comrade. In these two cases, the whole history of the Great Patriotic War was reflected: from the beginning to the military operations in Germany.

Studying these letters, you understand, "at what price happiness was won." Private correspondence, carefully kept for many decades by relatives and friends, reflects various episodes of the Great Patriotic War, many aspects of the inner world and way of life of war veterans, and also contains many testimonies about the life of the rear.

The first months of the war

The collection of letters contains four postcards dated 4-6 September 1941: “I am mobilized. We are going to Poltava, and then I don’t know. ” Then: "We left with Lozovoi, I do not know where." September 6: “Hello from Ukraine! We are going to Kiev, we are approaching Mirgorod. And in these short messages everywhere: “pity and bring up our children”, “I kiss you and children”, “Hello, Polichka and my children Vova, Vanya, Vitya!”

Total uncertainty

5 September 1941, the last postcard came: "Where I will be, then I will write." And then a long silence followed.

In March, 1942, his wife, Pelageya Shamarova, made a request to the Commissariat of Defense of the USSR. In a reply from 15 March 1942, it was reported that “information about the whereabouts of I. Shamarov. currently not available. He is not on the list of dead, dead from injuries and missing. ”

14 May 1942, my wife receives a letter from Ilya - a friend of her husband, in which he reports that “Ivan and I were together in a difficult situation. Where is he now, I do not know. But I don’t think something happened to him. ”

"Wait for me"

Pelagia could only wait and hope for a miracle. And the miracle happened! The first letter received after the liberation of the Rostov region from the occupation dates back to February 1943 of the year (the date is not readable). About his long silence, he does not apply. After greetings to all, a brief message that everything is fine, the enumerations of those acquaintances who served with him served as a complete poem by Konstantin Simonov “Wait for me”.

It was later from the recollections of fellow soldiers that it became known that after a short-term training in the intelligence school, during the performance of a combat mission in Budennovsk, Ivan Shamarov was captured by the Schmidt team. He himself only once in a letter from 10 of September 1944 wrote: “I did not write for a long time, this is not laziness, but no matter how much I wrote, they could not go. I was ... where I was in the 41-42 year, only a total of 16 days. But everything went well. ”

"Katyusha" sing

Scrolling through the yellowed "triangles", you get information about military operations in which Ivan participated. He was a military intelligence officer, a military rank - sergeant, served in the 915 artillery regiment of the 346 th Debaltsevskaya Red Banner Rifle Division.

Some lines pointing to the location of the front-line soldier are marred by military censorship: “I am now in the army in artillery ...”, “Hello from ...”

Studying the letters of Ivan Shamarov for four months - February-May 1945 - you understand that these are not just letters, but short reports from the battlefield. So succinctly he describes the military successes along the route of the division. October 14, 1943: “It is difficult to describe what is happening here at the forefront. Our beat aviation ours is bombing. "Katyusha" sing - a continuous roar, a rumble. He is also an enemy of heavy bombing and it is very easy to get hit by a bomb or shell. It’s with such music that I compose a letter for you. ”

"We are now finished with idiots in the Crimea"

The battles for Debaltseve, Melitopol, the forcing of Sivash, Sevastopol, Kherson, Yelnya, the liberation of Latvia, Lithuania and the last battles in Germany - about all these battles at least a few lines in letters to my wife.

17 May 1944: “We are now finished with idiots in the Crimea, and if you had seen: how his last days were shredded. After all, he took Sevastopol 250 days, and we kicked him out in three days and even less. And when the last group was liquidated outside the city, it is just difficult to convey. How many have filled them and how much technology they have left for tens of square kilometers. And as the city exulted on the day of liberation - they saluted, the soul was sinking with joy. ”

In each letter, along with the love of their relatives, their land, patriotism and hatred of the enemy, the dream of ending the war and returning to a peaceful life passes like a thread. 5 September 1943: "Now the most responsible character of the struggle for the Dnieper, but we all know that no one will stand against the Russian soldier (these words are underlined)."

17 August 1944: "This year we are thinking of ending the war and seeing you."

October 17 1944: "In general, military life - the life of a front-line soldier is full of surprises."

October 24 1944: "You already know about the brilliant successes of our troops and us, so there is nothing more to write."

October 28 1944 year: “While we miss. But around us "concerts" for the fascists are performed funeral. "

In his letters, Ivan Viktorovich asks many questions about the lives of children, wife, relatives in the liberated Rostov, about their life, health and nutrition.

November 28 1943: “Thank you, entertaining letter. Vitka (younger son), of course, you forgive? The only pity is that they will grow out of this age and I cannot observe it. Well, at least in the letters describe their tricks. It is very interesting to me".

In almost every letter, starting with 1941, the phrase: “I am still alive and well, I wish you the best.”

Personal letter to son

In September, the eldest son Vladimir learned to write 1943, and his father, to instill in him the skills of reading and writing, sends letters from the front, written personally to Vladimir Ivanovich Shamarov in block letters.

December 10 1943: “Well done, that you know how to write. Learn to write better. The Red Army soldiers also read your letter and praised you that you can write to daddy himself. ”

Later, in the 1944 year, when the middle son Ivan also learned to read and write, Ivan Viktorovich would write letters in print letters personally to each of his sons.

13 February 1944: “Hello, Vanya! I received your letter. Thank you, son. Learn to write better. All my comrades read your letter. Well done! Just do not turn the letters. I kiss you. Your dad. Hello from my comrades.

1943 year - year of awards

October 28 1943, Ivan Shamarov was awarded the medal "For Courage", and November 19 1943 - the Order of the Red Star.

He received the medal “For Courage” for the fact that, in the area of ​​military operations in the area of ​​the village of Udachnoe 22 of October 1943, “quickly and clearly linked the battery’s battle formations. According to its coordinates, three enemy firing points were destroyed, the fire of three artillery batteries, seven artillery batteries was suppressed, ”is indicated in award documents published in the“ People’s feat ”electronic base.

And here are the lines from the second award sheet: “Comrade Shamarov, the master of his craft, quickly tied the firing positions, thereby accelerating the operation of the batteries for the quickest opening of fire. On November 2, 1943, he participated in forcing the first gun, and subsequently, without horse traction, he rolled the guns at the OP (firing position). During a hot battle, he worked along with the fire crew. Being wounded, Comrade Shamarov did not leave the battlefield until the enemy counterattack choked. After some time, the enemy again counterattacked with large infantry forces with support tanks, with the active support of diving enemy bombers. As a member of the CPSU (b), Comrade Shamarov urged his comrades to prevent enemy tanks from entering infantry battle formations. With gun fire, Comrade Shamarov did not allow tanks to battle infantry formations, and also destroyed up to 15 machine gunners and two light machine guns.

"The boredom is incredible in this unfortunate country"

The further our troops moved to the West, the more “descriptive” the news came from the front. In his letters to his wife, Ivan Viktorovich gave interesting sketches of foreign life and architecture, compared the weather with that which should be at home.

17 March 1945: “For now, the boredom is incredible in this ill-fated country. Moreover, it is spring now - mud, water from below and above. ”

He died after victory

From the end of 1944, Ivan Shamarov had bad dreams full of disturbing forebodings, which he sometimes reported in letters.

30 March 1945: “I have bad dreams. And if you believe them, then it will be bad for you or for me. ”

27 April 1945, Ivan was wounded in the stomach in the Stettin area (Western Pomerania, Germany).

But he lived to win! He saw with his own eyes the fruits of his military labors, his salute and, I think, his soul exulted just like thousands of others.

His last letter from the hospital is dated 14 of May 1945 of the year, and he hopes to see you soon.

25 May 1945, Ivan Shamarov died in hospital from injuries. He was buried in Germany, in the South-West district of the city of Stargard in a brotherly cemetery. Details of the last days of his life were told to the widow by front-line friends. In their letters there are many warm words about Ivan Viktorovich, the bitterness of loss and words of support for his wife and sons of a deceased friend.

In conclusion, I would like to emphasize that with the example of just one family, its correspondence for 1941-1945 of the year, memories of comrades, we get an idea of ​​the war and its participants - simple and sincere, which causes the deepest respect for people who sacrificed their lives common victory.
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  1. free
    free 11 September 2015 06: 48 New
    +7
    I am proud to be your descendant, glory to you and honor Man!
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 11 September 2015 07: 35 New
    +3
    My grandfather, lies at the bottom of the Balaklava Bay, on the ship "Armenia" .. Officially missing .. and so that they collected information .. and on the description of the place and death of "Armenia" .. was there .. But there were no lists. ..
    1. Wasiliy1985
      Wasiliy1985 11 September 2015 21: 50 New
      +1
      My grandfather lies in a specially allocated area of ​​the city cemetery: "for veterans and participants of the Second World War and their spouses." In 2010, my grandfather died, born in 1924, he was a signalman - on the front end for only 3 months, then they wrote off according to injury: amputation of the left hand. For me, my grandfather is a lifetime - there are no half-hands.
      Wait, I only understand - how is it and what is it about ..
      And his wife, my grandmother, and the great-grandmother of my children, are still alive and most of all glad to the younger butuz! :) And he distinguishes her from all his relatives - she has all his good mood. :)

      My grandfather, according to the recollections of my grandmother, was a normal 19-year-old guy, and even a "front-line soldier" !! In 1943, when my grandfather returned, there were no men "in the village" at all!
      "And here - there is no left hand .. Evon trouble is ...
      Front-line soldier of 24th year of birth in the 43rd in the village .. "
    2. Wasiliy1985
      Wasiliy1985 11 September 2015 22: 15 New
      0
      And one more thing: it doesn’t matter where our grandfathers lie .. It is important that we remember why they are lying !!!
      And they lie for our sake - what would we remember !!!
  3. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 11 September 2015 08: 12 New
    +2
    Eternal Glory to the Heroes! bow to Zemlyushki!
  4. TWR
    TWR 11 September 2015 10: 10 New
    -12
    I draw attention to the photo. See what the fighters are armed with. Mostly all are armed with submachine guns. How can an army be so armed? In fact, it is half unarmed. After all, a submachine gun is an auxiliary weapon.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. lukke
      lukke 11 September 2015 10: 58 New
      +3
      A submachine gun is the best thing in urban fighting. In the photo of ten saluting fighters for two - Mosin carbines. Do not forget that this is already 1944, and unlike 1941, our industry could cover what was needed primarily for the army. And since the majority with submachine guns - that means it was more effective. And in the field, 90% of the damage is caused by artillery and aircraft, so they had to salute from a howitzer or IL-2 in the photo?
      1. TWR
        TWR 11 September 2015 11: 41 New
        -5
        Quote: lukke
        And in the field, 90% of the damage is caused by artillery and aircraft

        Really?
        Quote: lukke
        A submachine gun is the best thing in urban fighting.

        Do you think they were rearmed before the battles in the city?
        Quote: lukke
        unlike 1941, our industry could cover what was needed primarily for the army.

        I could not cover. Therefore, PP was so widely stamped. Because they are cheap. But the effect of them is the same.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2015 12: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: TWR
          I could not cover. Therefore, PP was so widely stamped. Because they are cheap. But the effect of them is the same.

          In total, industry in 1944 supplied (in units):
          - rifles and carbines - 2450331;
          - submachine guns - 1970226;
          - light and tank machine guns - 246275;
          - easel machine guns - 98829;
          - DShK machine guns - 14758;
          - anti-tank rifles - 38736;

          That is, in 1944 more rifles and carbines were delivered than PP.
          1. TWR
            TWR 11 September 2015 12: 07 New
            -5
            Quote: Alexey RA
            That is, in 1944 more rifles and carbines were delivered than PP.

            And this is not right. Soviet submachine guns had to be delivered a maximum of 1/10 part. Because it was bullshit, not an army weapon.
            1. lukke
              lukke 11 September 2015 12: 38 New
              +3
              The General Staff will take into account your comments and deep conclusions, so as not to step on the same rake again in the future. You can even write to them bypassing VO directly.
              1. TWR
                TWR 11 September 2015 13: 18 New
                -3
                Quote: lukke
                You can even write to them bypassing VO directly.

                Only after you lend me your time machine.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 September 2015 13: 34 New
              +2
              Quote: TWR
              And this is not right. Soviet submachine guns had to be delivered a maximum of 1/10 part. Because it was bullshit, not an army weapon.

              In its tactical niche, it is an excellent weapon. Even in rifle units - in conjunction with a rifle / carbine and light machine gun. Because fighting in cramped conditions (field fortifications, urban development, etc.) in the second half of the war was far from uncommon.
              And where did you get this ratio 1/10? In addition to the rifle units, the PPs were armed with subunits of machine gunners (rifle, tank and mechanized formations), tank crews, gun crews, and command personnel.
              1. TWR
                TWR 11 September 2015 13: 44 New
                -3
                Quote: Alexey RA
                In its tactical niche, it is an excellent weapon.

                This bullshit, even in its tactical niche. On TT cartridge impossible It was to create a normal army weapon.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Even in rifle units - in conjunction with a rifle / carbine and light machine gun.

                This is not a suitable weapon for rifle units. Maybe only for some special groups. Assault squads. But in this case it would be more appropriate to equip their MP-40. Like scouts, for example. Have you ever seen a photo or a film about German intelligence from the PCA? Did not see. Ever wonder why so? Think it over.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And where did you get this ratio 1/10? In addition to the rifle units, the PPs were armed with subunits of machine gunners (rifle, tank and mechanized formations), tank crews, gun crews, and command personnel.

                This is a small percentage. Junior officers, gun crews were armed mainly with carbines, tank crews - 1 or 2 per crew.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 11 September 2015 15: 34 New
                  +1
                  Quote: TWR
                  This bullshit, even in its tactical niche. It was impossible to create a normal army weapon on the TT cartridge.

                  We still have no other pistol cartridge. And to establish his release in the war is a utopia.
                  Quote: TWR
                  This is not a suitable weapon for rifle units. Maybe only for some special groups. Assault squads. But in this case it would be more appropriate to equip their MP-40. Like scouts, for example.

                  Gorgeous. And the supply of ammunition is carried out through Berlin.
                  One question - what new rifle ammunition was put in a large series in the war?
                  And yet - are you going to clean the trenches and dugouts with special groups? Or arrows with a toe? On the scale of the Red Army, special groups do not roll. For this, there were just 2-3 military personnel per division + companies and machine gun battalions.
                  Quote: TWR
                  Have you ever seen a photo or a film about German intelligence from the PCA? Did not see. Ever wonder why so?

                  I didn’t see scouts. Archival photos of Germans with PPSh in the same Stalingrad are available in commodity quantities.
                  Quote: TWR
                  This is a small percentage. Junior officers, gun crews were armed mainly with carbines, tank crews - 1 or 2 per crew.

                  There were also numerous tank and mechanized brigades - they had a ratio of PP and rifles of 4-5: 1.
                  1. TWR
                    TWR 11 September 2015 17: 19 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    We still have no other pistol cartridge

                    Here. This is another conversation. The mistake was made back in the late 20s. When a cartridge production line was purchased for the production of cartridges for the Mauser-Bolo in Germany. The purchase of the line itself was not an error. The mistake was to design an army pistol under the same cartridge. If anyone does not know, Mauser Bolo (and his ammunition) was allowed to be released in Conquered Germany. And in Conquered Germany production of army weapons and ammunition was prohibited. Now figure out what the Muzer cartridge was 7,63x25 mm (and its clone 7,62x25 mm TT, of course, too). Since its production in Germany in those years was ALLOWED.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And to establish his release in the war is a utopia.

                    But the sleeve of this cartridge allowed the use of any bullet. The cartridge on the same sleeve in caliber 9 mm in Germany was called Mauser Export (for internal use it was produced FORBIDDEN, because he was just an army). Here is a variation on this subject had to be promoted in the USSR. Bullet, this is actually a trifling matter. And the pistol was made new anyway. And only then, on this cartridge (9 mm) make PP. That would be a class, not Soviet farts.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And the supply of ammunition is carried out through Berlin.

                    Do not exaggerate. With trophies in 1944. everything was already pretty good.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    what new rifle ammunition was put in a large series in the war?

                    Into the war? You are laughing. Replacing good rifle ammunition lasts for decades. Sometimes for 100 years. That is why it is always necessary to carefully approach this issue when taking something into service. In the USSR, with the adoption of ammunition, they managed to get into a puddle many times in a row (for TT, for PM, for AK-47, and for AK-74, too, everything is not simple, it is also not completely air-conditioned). And this is a huge expense. Everything from being ignorant. The fruits of Soviet education. There is a piece of paper with printing, but no knowledge.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Are you going to clean the trenches and dugouts with special groups? Or arrows with a toe?

                    Self-loading. Nothing was better for this at the time of 2MB. Do you propose to halve the number of soldiers in the squads? Let me remind you, the so-called "Soviet submachine gunners" could only effectively fight in enemy trenches and dugouts. During their assault they were useless. Rather, their weapons. Those same Soviet PP.
                    1. gladcu2
                      gladcu2 11 September 2015 19: 33 New
                      +1
                      TWR

                      Actually, you make good comments. But the behavior is similar to trolling. In other words, say half the truth.

                      Artillery fought in the war. She suppressed the defense. Therefore, pp and more importantly in the hands, for stripping.

                      Even at the stage of positional war, the main role was played by machine-gun points. In the city and in the wooded area, the pp also steers.
                      1. TWR
                        TWR 11 September 2015 19: 48 New
                        -3
                        Quote: gladcu2
                        In other words, say half the truth.

                        Oyts. Maybe specify the place and time?
                        Quote: gladcu2
                        Artillery fought in the war.

                        I want to inform you that other types of troops also took part. And even more often than artillery.
                        Quote: gladcu2
                        Therefore, pp and more importantly in the hands, for stripping.

                        Well, yes, of course. The war was only in large cities. Like in the movies.
                        Quote: gladcu2
                        Even at the stage of positional war, the main role was played by machine-gun points.

                        For this tactic, machine-gun points, the Germans at the end of the war cruelly paid. And it was due to the failure of this tactic that he was FORCED adopt the StG 44 as a temporary and forced decision. And it was precisely with this “temporary and forced decision” that Soviet uneducated woodpeckers VOLUNTARILY after the war they armed the whole army. No, then all this shnyaga was actively given to "friends". But the money went into the sand. Here he was, this "cost-effective socialism." Whatever rearmament, then by the cash register. So gradually it was thin and burst. From hunger.
                      2. gladcu2
                        gladcu2 13 September 2015 17: 39 New
                        0
                        TWR

                        Stop insulting the Soviet. Get more respect.

                        Your opinion makes sense. But I will answer. Each weapon has its own time. All armies had errors. But if someone points out the mistakes of others, maybe this person does not fully assess the situation. Critics like this all the time.

                        But artillery is the God of war and it is not in vain that they say so. Because artillery suffered about 75% of the damage to the enemy.
                      3. TWR
                        TWR 13 September 2015 19: 01 New
                        0
                        Quote: gladcu2
                        Stop insulting the Soviet

                        I do not insult him. He insults him TTX.
                        Quote: gladcu2
                        All armies had errors.

                        But not all of them were one after another, without a break.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. TWR
                TWR 11 September 2015 17: 25 New
                -1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                For this, there were just 2-3 military personnel per division + companies and machine gun battalions.

                You are somehow fixated on Soviet films. It is only in them continuous melee. In fact, this is a rarity. And especially for this, there was no point in weakening the troops.
                In any case, the Soviet PPs were not suitable for this. Because of its absolutely terrible efficiency.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Archival photos of Germans with PPSh in the same Stalingrad are available in commodity quantities.

                Remind me, as far as I remember, were the Germans surrounded there? But is the supply of troops with ammunition interrupted during encirclement? Maybe they were not just armed with PPSh? Not of free will?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                There were also numerous tank and mechanized brigades

                Let's talk about the rifle units. For them, this was the main weapon.
              4. The comment was deleted.
            3. lukke
              lukke 11 September 2015 22: 04 New
              0
              About your so-called bullshit
              An interesting historical fact. Captured as trophies, the Soviet PPS Germans never remade under their patron, as, for example, PPSh. And all because, firstly, the cartridge in the PPS practically never skewed, unlike the same PPSh, and secondly, the Soviet-made captured ammunition at the end of the war, the Germans accumulated quite a large number and had to be used somehow .

              Source: http://shkolazhizni.ru/archive/0/n-48069/
              © Shkolazhizni.ru

              And to broaden your horizons
              “The main weapon of the company was machine guns. There were 4 of them in the company. It was a very powerful and rapid-fire weapon. They helped us very much. The infantry’s main weapon was a carbine. He was respected more than an automaton. He was called the "bride of a soldier." He was long-range and penetrated defense well. The machine gun was good only in close combat. There were approximately 15–20 assault rifles in the company. We tried to get a Russian PPSh machine. He was called the "little machine gun." There were 72 rounds in the disk, and with good care it was a very formidable weapon.

              There were also sniper rifles. But not everywhere. I was given a Russian sniper rifle Simonov near Sevastopol. It was a very accurate and powerful weapon. In general, Russian weapons were appreciated for their simplicity and reliability. But it was very poorly protected from corrosion and rust. Our weapons were better crafted. ”

              From the memoirs of non-commissioned officer 111 of the Wehrmacht Infantry Division Helmut Klussman
              http://feldgrau.info/2010-09-02-14-48-28/10849-trofei-u-nemtsev-ppsh
              1. TWR
                TWR 11 September 2015 22: 26 New
                -1
                Quote: lukke
                An interesting historical fact.

                Horror, how you broaden my horizons. And the horizons of the rest. It remains to find out which way?
                Quote: lukke
                The infantry’s main weapon was a carbine.

                Actually a rifle. Although it was called a carbine. The Germans, they are strange people. The rifle differs from the carbine by the swivel (the way of fastening the belt). You have "wrong memories," my dear.
                Quote: lukke
                We tried to get a Russian PPSh machine. He was called the "little machine gun." There were 72 rounds in the disk, and with good care it was a very formidable weapon.

                And what, be sure to "relay crazy" relay. It is clear that none of this happened. And Klussman is just raving. On slavery to investigators.
                Quote: lukke
                given a sniper Russian rifle Simonov

                Good rifle. Worse than Mauser, but not bad at all.
                Quote: lukke
                In general, Russian weapons were appreciated for their simplicity and reliability.

                Was Simonov’s rifle “simple and reliable”? However, probably yes. After all, Klussman probably put the gas outlet to the maximum. In this case, everything worked well. But not for long. Why should Klussman take so long?
    3. ava09
      ava09 11 September 2015 15: 43 New
      +4
      There is no need to make a cesspool of Military Review, where amateurs in an ultimatum form express their opinions.
      1. TWR
        TWR 11 September 2015 16: 39 New
        -4
        Quote: ava09
        where amateurs express their opinions in an ultimatum form.

        So get out. In order not to turn into a cesspool. Your opinion.
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 11 September 2015 19: 42 New
          +1
          TWR

          You do direct trolling.

          Most of the armed forces were armed with assault brigades. Tank landings. 5 million done.
          In conventional military units used weapons under a rifle cartridge. And there were also PPSh, who are supposed to be in the state.

          Photos of the period of the beginning of the war, when the Germans posed with PPSh as a great deal.

          The German infantry squad, the period of the outbreak of war, was based on the support of a light machine gun, as the main striking force. Yes, plus one pp at the squad commander.
          1. TWR
            TWR 11 September 2015 19: 57 New
            -4
            Quote: gladcu2
            Photos of the period of the beginning of the war, when the Germans posed with PPSh as a great deal.

            Did the Germans take PPSh for intelligence? No. And MP-40 was taken actively. Think about why.
            Quote: gladcu2
            The period of the outbreak of war was based on the support of a light machine gun, as the main striking force.

            It was a failure. And in the middle of the war, everyone had already learned how to knock out a machine gunner with a mortar or machine guns (in extreme cases, DP). From such grief the Germans were FORCED adopt the StG 44. Rubbish, of course. But with grief in half, the problem with the lack of Germans machine guns and machine gunners was partially solved.
            All would be fine, but some fools decided to spread the theme of an ersatz like StG 44 to the entire army. , what to say.
            1. gladcu2
              gladcu2 13 September 2015 18: 10 New
              0
              I can’t imagine why MP-43 is better than PPSh in its performance characteristics. Let's leave the price aspect aside.

              What is better with mp-43? Reliability? Weight and wearability of warheads. Does the cartridge itself have a more stopping effect? Ballistics?
              Why say it on your fingers, without reference to formulas and math. And then as soon as the question is more complicated, the defendants begin to philosophize mischievously.
              1. TWR
                TWR 13 September 2015 19: 06 New
                0
                Quote: gladcu2
                I can’t imagine why MP-43 is better than PPSh in its performance characteristics.

                And do not imagine. You have no knowledge for this. Since you decided to compare MP-43 with PPSh. You are trying to compare incomparable values ​​with a thoughtful look. PP with assault rifle. PPC.
                Quote: gladcu2
                Why say it on your fingers

                That’s how it looks on fingers. PP should be compared with PP. A assault rifle, with an assault rifle.
          2. TWR
            TWR 13 September 2015 19: 08 New
            0
            Quote: gladcu2
            5 million done.

            What is this “argument”? What, is he good at that?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 September 2015 12: 01 New
    +2
    Quote: TWR
    I draw attention to the photo. See what the fighters are armed with. Mostly all are armed with submachine guns. How can an army be so armed? In fact, it is half unarmed. After all, a submachine gun is an auxiliary weapon.

    Do you judge by one photo the armament of the entire army?
    The soldiers in the photo can be “submachine gunners” from the subunits of submachine gunners of rifle units, tank paratroopers from 19 mk or marines. Or an ordinary assault group, formed according to the experience of Stalingrad for fighting in the city.
    1. TWR
      TWR 11 September 2015 12: 11 New
      -3
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Do you judge by one photo the armament of the entire army?

      I'm not judging anything. I commented on the photo.
      About the "armament" of the army more eloquently than photographs speak the numbers given by you. Almost half the army in terms of individual weapons "armed" PP. Well, at least not with slings.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 September 2015 13: 42 New
        0
        Quote: TWR
        About the "armament" of the army more eloquently than photographs speak the numbers given by you. Almost half the army in terms of individual weapons "armed" PP. Well, at least not with slings.

        1: 1 is morgue average hospital temperature. smile
        In rifle divisions, the ratio of PP / rifle was usually 1: 2,5 - 1: 3 (taking into account intelligence, “machine gunners” and calculations).
        1. TWR
          TWR 11 September 2015 16: 43 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          In rifle divisions, the ratio of PP / rifle was usually 1: 2,5 - 1: 3 (taking into account intelligence, “machine gunners” and calculations).

          Anyway, this is a lot. How many software do you need to platoon? 1 PC. So I generously wrote it off, 1 out of 10.
      2. YakimovSS
        YakimovSS 11 September 2015 15: 14 New
        +1
        As I understand it, are you ready to stop the queue from the PCA with your own breasts?
        1. TWR
          TWR 11 September 2015 16: 41 New
          0
          Quote: YakimovSS
          As I understand it, are you ready to stop the queue from the PCA with your own breasts?

          I understand that you can’t write anything smart. So write all sorts of nonsense.
          1. YakimovSS
            YakimovSS 11 September 2015 16: 43 New
            0
            Well, is there anything to answer in the case?
            1. TWR
              TWR 11 September 2015 16: 51 New
              0
              Quote: YakimovSS
              Well, is there anything to answer in the case?

              There is. But only after you write me the basic formulas for the effectiveness of small arms. At least the names of their authors. And its main (small arms) damaging factors. And until then I do not see the point. Without theory, you (and any other) will still not understand anything about it.
              And less pathos. Everything is easily described by mathematical formulas. Those. determined by objective factors. And if according to the formulas it turns out that the weapon, as an army, is bullshit, then it is actually bullshit. But for hunting rabbits or jerboas, it may be ideal. Weapons for hunting rabbits and weapons for "hunting humans" (army) have different optimal performance characteristics. The same goes for elephant hunting weapons. But the other way.
              1. gladcu2
                gladcu2 11 September 2015 19: 52 New
                0
                TWR

                You want to say. That PPSh is not effective in any application. And so the country and the army are bad. He claims that rifle cartridge weapons are certainly better.

                Now you can write your own mathematical calculations for calculating the effectiveness.

                I’m too lazy to block a bunch of literature, and I don’t want to.

                Go ahead and with the song.
                1. TWR
                  TWR 11 September 2015 20: 09 New
                  0
                  Quote: gladcu2
                  That PPSh is not effective in any application.

                  Ineffective. Even worse than the MP-40. Which in itself is "dull shit."
                  Quote: gladcu2
                  And so the country and the army are bad.

                  Somehow, name the country that could not even create an army pistol. Throughout its history. It launched into space rockets on a German basis. AND ARMY could not create a gun. The first army pistol, similar to the real one, is called a PY. But this is not the USSR, this is the Russian Federation.
                  Quote: gladcu2
                  He claims that rifle cartridge weapons are certainly better

                  Each weapon for its own purposes. The niche of the PP (and the army pistol) also existed. But in the USSR it was not normally filled.
                  Quote: gladcu2
                  I’m too lazy to block a bunch of literature, and I don’t want to.
                  Go ahead and with the song.

                  God will give. See my comment on 11.09 at 20:02.
                  1. gladcu2
                    gladcu2 13 September 2015 18: 15 New
                    0
                    TWR

                    TT, in your police gun?
                    This is the most that is army.

                    Do you seem to set the goal of the USSR to reproach? Do not try. Break off.
                    1. TWR
                      TWR 13 September 2015 19: 13 New
                      0
                      Quote: gladcu2
                      TT, in your police gun?

                      No. Under for this category, he also does not fit. This is no gun. Weapons for hunting jerboas. And rabbits.
                      Quote: gladcu2
                      This is the most that is army.

                      Of course the army. He has an asterisk on an ebony pad.
                      In fact, TT was not suitable for any of the army categories. For service weapons, he was too powerful and heavy. For an army pistol, too weak and the caliber was small. For the army was not suitable in any form.
                      Quote: gladcu2
                      Do you seem to set the goal of the USSR to reproach?

                      Oh yes. I forgot that the Soviet is great. Thank you for reminding me.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      3. gladcu2
        gladcu2 11 September 2015 19: 46 New
        0
        TWR

        Those. 50 T-000 tanks are slingshot?
        1. TWR
          TWR 11 September 2015 19: 51 New
          0
          Quote: gladcu2
          .e. 50 T-000 tanks are slingshot

          I did not know that the T-34 is an individual small arms. For the future I will consider.
          1. gladcu2
            gladcu2 11 September 2015 19: 54 New
            0
            When talking about weapons, specify. And then I thought you were talking about the T-34.
  • 56_br
    56_br 11 September 2015 14: 27 New
    +1
    this photo just refutes the prevailing opinion that the Red Army had 1 rifle for 5 people, photo fact. Glory to the Soviet Army, Glory to the Soviet rear workers !!!
  • Serg65
    Serg65 11 September 2015 20: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: TWR
    After all, a submachine gun is an auxiliary weapon.

    And the main thing is 122-x mm howitzer and mortar behind you ????
    1. TWR
      TWR 11 September 2015 21: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Serg65
      main-122 mm howitzer and mortar behind

      Weapons on a rifle cartridge.
  • AID.S
    AID.S 12 September 2015 01: 00 New
    0
    "I draw attention to the photo. Look at what the soldiers are armed ....."
    A mess, a complete mess where Shoigu looks !!!!!!!
    1. TWR
      TWR 12 September 2015 01: 37 New
      0
      Quote: AID.S
      A mess, a complete mess where Shoigu looks !!!!!!!

      "Not all patients killed the war?"
  • Sofia
    Sofia 11 September 2015 10: 29 New
    +1
    Yes, glory to our soldiers! I have a photo of a girl, a participant in the war, Lydia Smyk, who was a nurse and carried out the wounded from the very baking. And she wrote home that she had “bought a new blouse” so as not to worry an old mother. Bow to everyone who defended us!
  • gladcu2
    gladcu2 11 September 2015 19: 56 New
    0
    Twr.

    Math in the studio. And a calculator to help.
    1. TWR
      TWR 11 September 2015 20: 02 New
      -1
      Quote: gladcu2
      Math in the studio. And a calculator to help.

      Then from you, for starters, as well as from the rest, I already wrote above, it is also due:
      1. The damaging factors of small arms.
      2. Surnames of the authors of the formulas (the simplest, for starters) the effectiveness of small arms.
      Just to explain something you need to be sure that the listener understands what they are writing to him. And without preliminary preparation, he will not understand. Definitely. And it will give something like "Soviet, then excellent." As always happens. And I do not do educational program. There is internet for this.
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 13 September 2015 18: 20 New
        0
        TWR

        At the expense of mathematics.

        Took on tug, do not say that not tug.

        I will not interfere in the review by weight for the dissertation.

        But you so often operate with trivial facts that your name is Troll. But in life it’s easier for you to give in the face than to pass by.
        1. TWR
          TWR 13 September 2015 19: 19 New
          0
          Quote: gladcu2
          At the expense of mathematics.
          Took on tug, do not say that not tug.

          And this is written to me by a person who likes to compare the TTX software and the TTX machine. What can you explain after this that you will understand?
          Quote: gladcu2
          But in life it’s easier for you to give in the face than to pass by.

          I would not risk it in your place.
  • dumkopff
    dumkopff 11 September 2015 20: 13 New
    0
    "When you said about the p-last d-day, p-thought about those who p-die on the p-last d-day of the war. Oddly, relatives will feel sorry for them b-most of the rest. As if in the p-last d-day of the war this m-could not have happened. Although it’s actually p-because it is the p-last day of the war, p-last several hundred or t- thousand people. " (with)
  • Ossetian
    Ossetian 13 September 2015 00: 35 New
    0
    A cool troll, it rolls beautifully, slightly distorted the facts, did not say a drop, shifted the emphasis, pros, fulies there ...
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 13 September 2015 18: 21 New
      0
      Ossetian.

      TWR Classic Troll. I absolutely agree with you.
      1. TWR
        TWR 13 September 2015 18: 58 New
        0
        Quote: gladcu2
        TWR Classic Troll. I absolutely agree with you.

        He wrote about you.