Military Review

MiG-21. Death to the "Phantoms"!

70



At the world's largest aerospace museum - the National Museum aviation and astronautics in Washington - there is a remarkable corner of the exposition. Side by side, having slightly turned their nasal intakes to each other, there are two implacable opponents: the American Phantom F-4 and the Soviet MiG-21. Eternal rivals, long-standing enemies, first encountering each other in the Vietnam War - and continuing the confrontation for more than two decades.

Hereinafter - quotes from the article “Winged Legend:“ Flying Kalashnikov ””, published last week on the Internet.

In the National Museum of Aviation and Astronautics in Washington there is neither a “Phantom” nor a MiG-21.

And further - according to the list. In Washington, there is no "the world's largest aerospace museum." And there are no “eternal rivals and old enemies” either. The Soviet MiG-21 and the American “Phantom” almost never met each other.

A definitive “never” is appropriate in this context. Several dozen episodes for more than two decades of continuous wars. Now they love to argue about the results of those air battles. We them, or they us? Yes, what a difference, the result was most likely equal, but it didn’t matter at all against the background of the general situation in the sky. All these battles “MiG-21 vs Phantom” are statistical errors due to the theory of probabilities and random coincidence of events.

In Vietnam, the cause of 3 / 4 aircraft combat losses was barreled artillery. In the area of ​​Hanoi, an unprecedented density air defense system was organized for the entire history World Wars: Over 7000 anti-aircraft guns in caliber over 37 mm! The Americans fumbled on this wall of fire, suffering enormous losses.

At low altitudes - a fiery storm. On the big ones - hell and doom. The Union has set up the Vietnam 60 divisions of the Dvina C-75 air defense system and the 7500 powerful anti-aircraft missiles to them.

What then is left to the MiGs?

Answered me that slant that he commanded the interrogation:
“I was shot down by anti-aircraft gunner Li Si Tsyn”.




It is worth noting that the official losses of American aircraft (Air Force, Navy, Marines) for all the years of the war amounted to 3374 aircraft. Three thousand three hundred! Of which only a quarter fell on the famous "Phantoms". And the other three quarters? “Skyhawks”, “Skyreaders”, “SuperSybry”, “Thunderchiefs” ... Almost always lined with fire from the ground.

Due to their small size and poor equipment, the air forces of the DRV did not mean anything. As a rule, the Vietnamese from ambushes, from disguised aerodromes of jump, occasionally attacking the enemy's attack groups.

Instead of the swift MiG-21, the main type of the fighter of the Air Force of North Vietnam was the outdated MiG-17. It was this nimble subsonic machine, with the most powerful cannon armament and the minimum load on the wing was the main (albeit very rare) trouble in the air. The second largest in the Air Force DRA was the J-6 (Chinese copy of the MiG-19).

MiG-21. Death to the "Phantoms"!


Something similar was observed in the enemy. “Phantom” became the main type of combat aircraft only at the end of the war. In the early years, the F-105 “Thunderchief” fighter-bombers (the non-returning 382 fighter) were considered the main force of the United States Air Force.

The possibility of meeting with the Vietnamese aviation, of course, added adrenaline to the pilots of “Phantom”. But, to be honest, the chance of meeting the “Phantom” with the MiG, and even the rare model “21”, was two orders of magnitude lower than the chance to get a piece of 85 mm projectile into the hydraulic system.

All these conversations “Phantom vs MiG” are not worth the candle. The first, loaded with bombs, rushed between heaven and earth, choosing from two evils (anti-aircraft guns or air defense systems). The latter were often unable to get off the ground.

Near East

I run to takeoff on the sand
Hermoshlem buttoned on the go,
My Mirage with the Star of David -
The power and pride of Hel Avira,
With a roar gaining height ...


The Mirage has traditionally been an implacable rival of the MiG-21 in the Middle East.


Mirage IIIS of the Swiss Air Force


He combined the best of the fighters of his generation. The highest maneuverability. Excellent radar Thompson Cyrano with instrumental range 50 km, able to notify the pilot of obstacles exceeding a given height, and find radio contrast objects on the ground. The indicator on the windshield (the world's first ILF CSF97), which allowed to reduce the information load on the pilot and simplify aiming in air combat. Two “ordinary” rockets with an IK GOS and one long-range Matra R.530 with a radar guidance head and a warhead of 30 kg. However, the pilots of Hel Aavir relied more on the proven Mirage cannons capable of “shredding” the enemy in a split second (two DEFA caliber 30 mm). There was also an additional rocket engine - 80 seconds of continuous fire - with the help of it, the Mirage could get out of the battle with an arrow and soar up 29 kilometers.

In general, the Dassault Mirage III had too many advantages, forcing to reckon with this machine. The Phantom Soviet and Arab pilots treated with some disdain, considering it less dangerous than the French “tailless”.



And this Phantom appeared too late! The six-day war went by without him. The first F-4 appeared in the Middle East only in September 1969.

It remains a mystery why the Israelis bought these cars. With “Mirages” there were problems in connection with the French weapons embargo (1967). In the conditions of the Middle East theater, the F-5 Tiger could become the best replacement. The proximity of airfields to the front line and maneuverable cannon battles are precisely the conditions under which this fighter was created.

The choice in favor of the heavy "Phantom" was due to two circumstances.

Its combat radius, with the result that the F-4 acquired the properties of a regional “strategic” bomber capable of reaching targets in the depths of Egypt.

And the presence of these machines in the US Air Force, making it easier to replenish combat losses, without attracting too much attention from European countries.

In general, “Fantômas” was a complete log, whose characteristics were hardly compensated by the high training of pilots Hel Aavir. In the air battles, F-4 preferred to keep a distance, firing missiles at the gaping MiGs. All the main work continued to perform “Mirage”.

Crew - 2 person. Normal take-off weight is 18 tons. A heavy interceptor with missile weapons (4 “Sidewinder” with thermal guidance + 4 long-range “Sperrow” with RLGSN) and “modern” avionics, assembled from monstrous 1960 chips.

As practice has shown, the Yankees are too hasty. The era of air-to-air missiles will come a little later, with the development of electronics.

A “Phantom” and remained strumming their useless rockets.

No better was his “eternal rival” MiG-21. Only instead of the multifunctional Westinghouse radar, capable of directing URs, and the infrared sighting system for ground targets, the MiG only had a RP-21 radio receiver.

And instead of eight missiles - two (K-13, a copy of “Sidewinder” with thermal guidance).

The weak weaponry was partly compensated for by the speed of the aircraft, as the pilots recollect, “21-y” at a speed of 900 km / h could perform a barrel in a second.

Being empty, the MiG-21 was 2,5 times lighter than the “Phantom”. Normal take-off weight - 8 tons.

As on the Phantom, the gun on the MiG was completely absent at first. The ability to suspend the container with the GSH-23 appeared only in 1964. Built-in guns began to be installed, starting with the modification of the MiG-21М (1968 year).

Perhaps someone will cause a shock, but the “Phantom” built-in gun appeared much earlier (F-4E, the most numerous series, 1965 year). Yes, and the gun itself was more decent - six-barrel Vulcan with ammunition 640 shells (against 200 in GSH-23L).

So what else is necessary to see how “MiGs were chasing artillery-armed Phantoms from cannons”. If, of course, they even met in the air ...

As for the Middle East, the Six-Day War, like most of the war of attrition, MiG-21 held in the sky without the "Phantom".

The only meeting opportunity is the Doomsday War (1973 year). Israeli aviation losses vary from 109 (Hel Aavir) to 262 (Soviet data) of all types of aircraft and helicopters. As always, the vast majority of aircraft was brought down by fire from the ground.

Then how much LA was lost in aerial combat? And how many “Phantoms” were among them?

The answer is too obvious. Very little. So little that no one noticed.

MiG-21 extremely rarely met with its “sworn enemy”, and nothing depended on the results of these meetings.

As time went. By the end of the 70s, the F-15 and F-16 became the main opponent of the MiGs in the sky of Palestine. And the MiG-21 itself has already faded into the background, giving way to a more modern MiG-23.

How often did the MiG-21 and “Phantom” fight?

With each other - almost never.

Against others - plenty. Vietnam - “Phantom” burns jungle with napalm. Indo-Pakistani conflict - MiGs smash Pakistani Starfighter. Vietnam - “Phantom” continues to burn with napalm; Egyptian-Libyan massacre (1977) - “MiGs” fight with “Mirage” Ethiopian-Somali war (1978) - “MiGs” fight with their own kind, as well as with F-5 “Tiger”. Afghan war - “MiGs” smash the Mujahideen. Iran-Iraq war - several meetings of “21s” with “Phantoms” were recorded. Nevertheless, the main opponent of the MiGs in this war was the F-5 “Tiger”, which is confirmed by the statistics of victories and defeats.

All this once again indicates that, even being of the same age, both superheroes did not have time to get to the same theater of military operations. In addition to shooting at each other, they had many other, much more serious opponents. And the rapid progress in aviation finally ruled out the possibility of any “long-standing hostility”.

Evolution

Like most military equipment models, the MiG and Phantom underwent several modernization cycles. The last member of the family (MiG-21-93) completely changed the concept of the MiG-21. Equipped with a helmet-mounted target designation system and a “Spear” radar, he acquired the possibility of using medium-range SD. In other words, it went beyond the framework of a light front-line fighter intended for maneuvering fights at close range.

However, by the beginning of the 90's modernization potential of the design was completely exhausted. By the beginning of the new century, the MiG-21 is hopelessly outdated. Also, as his “eternal rival” - “Phantom.”

The miniature size and layout of the MiG-21 prevented the increase in the combat load and the installation of the new avionics (what is the maximum diameter of the radar antenna installed in the nose cone of this “flying tube”?). Nothing better than Phantom: with its specific gravity and high wing loading, there is nothing even to dream of battles with modern fighters.

His main rival, Phantom, is currently serving only in Iranian aviation, where 225 machines remain in the ranks.

In addition to Iran, about 70 "Phantoms" are still in service with the Japanese Air Force.

47 "Phantoms" in service with the Turkish Air Force. 40 from South Korea. 50 from Greece. Germany wrote off its last F-4F in June 2013 of the year.


“Phantom” of the Luftwaffe takes off from a / b Siauliai (Lithuania, 2011)


This is not to say that someone likes to fly on obsolete trash. Especially when fighter jets of the “5” generation hover in the sky. But there is nothing to do - the money for the purchase of new aircraft are allocated long and reluctantly. “What are summer shoes? You didn’t take down skates. ”

Behind the shoulders of the front-line fighter MiG-21 is service in the military air forces of the 48 countries of the world, which represents an absolute record for combat jet aircraft.


There is no limit to the breadth of the Russian soul. Like the F-5 “Freedom Fighter”, the MiG was given in every kind (and unkind) hand. They always gave away for free, through all kinds of “military assistance” programs - in exchange for the loyalty of the satellite countries to their overlord.

As a result, Freedom Fighter (Tiger) was only a little behind the MiG, having entered into service with the 35 countries of the world. As of 2015, the year around the world still flies around 500 fighters of this type.

But “Phantom” was heard badly. Still, the car is expensive, specific. It would be unwise to give for free to everyone. As a result, the Americans managed to attach “Phantom” only in the Air Force of 11 countries.

It is curious that the most successful fighter of that era, in spite of its deafeningly successful combat use, was not particularly popular. The French did not believe in friendship and demanded to pay in foreign currency, as a result, “Mirage III” entered service in less than 10 countries. But what! Israel, Australia, Switzerland ...

The French showed a touching concern for “our younger brothers”. For the most inadequate customers, a simplified version was built (“The MiN 5”) - without radar at all, with the laboriousness of servicing the 15 man-hours. on 1 flight hour. There were buyers like Zaire, Colombia, Gabon ... However, the simple fighter-bomber for the action in the daytime liking the very same Israel (an unlicensed copy, “Nesher”).

Currently, the "Mirage" remain in service. The Egyptian Air Force “Mirage 5” serves side by side with its old acquaintance, the MiG-21.

Epilogue

The purpose of this satirical article is to expose the myths of the Cold War. The real use of aviation looked different than in the staging pictures “the pilots are alerted”, “MiG attacks Phantom”.

In fact, they were terrible fighting vehicles that shed rivers of human blood.

... And in the National Museum of Aviation and Cosmonautics in Washington, the MiG-21 was not accidental.




In some US aerospace museums, the MiG vs Phantom exposition is indeed present. This photo is most likely from Virginia.

Why did the Americans put next to the Phantom MiG? Otherwise, how will they explain to the children with whom their fathers fought. Do not put the layout of the huts and figures of the Vietnamese partisans side by side ...

The correct exposure would look like this: F-4E Phantom II with eight 500 pounder bombs props its nose against the KS-18 rusty anti-aircraft gun (caliber 85 mm).

MiG-21 is also great, did not disappoint.

9 January covered another column from Termez on Faizabad. It was a motorized rifle regiment, with trucks and equipment, covered with "armor" from the head and tail. The column passed Talukan and headed towards Kishim. Stretching out, the column formed a gap of a kilometer, where there was neither “armor” nor fire weapons. There the rebels struck.

From our Chirchik regiment, we were the first to raise a pair of flight commander, Captain Alexander Mukhin, who was in readiness No. 1 from his plane. Behind him flew a group of leadership. Excitement was great, everyone wanted to make war, to be noted in the case. On returning, the commanders immediately changed the plane, transferring to the trained fighters waiting. The rest had to be content with sitting in the cabs in readiness, waiting for the queue. The pilots flew excited, told just like in the movie about Chapaev: they shot at NURS from the UB-32 units at a crowd of cavalry and foot dushmans, practically in open areas. Then they chopped decently ...


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  1. Professor
    Professor 9 September 2015 07: 09 New
    -51
    By the end of the 70s, the main enemy of the MiGs in the sky of Palestine ...

    Good article, minus you for Palestine. negative
    1. insafufa
      insafufa 9 September 2015 07: 28 New
      +2
      Again National Channel the geographer lied
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 10 September 2015 14: 40 New
        +1
        for insafufa:
        Thanks, interesting video.
    2. Sirocco
      Sirocco 9 September 2015 08: 00 New
      +23
      Quote: Professor
      Good article, minus you for Palestine.

      Pan Professor, you are in your repertoire. Baba Yaga is against)))) You just look like a machine operator with a wide profile, although we know you as the Minister of Shipbuilding of the former USSR)))) and everything related to navigation.
      Question to you, where did you get such deep knowledge in the field of aircraft industry, do I look like an aviation enthusiast, or a professional? How does such a deep knowledge of machine tools come from, whatever topic you raise, do you all know? What kind of divine awareness you have, probably do not sleep at night, all learn, read, and enlighten us. laughing
      1. Professor
        Professor 9 September 2015 08: 13 New
        -8
        Quote: Sirocco
        Pan Professor, you are in your repertoire. Baba Yaga against))))

        I am demanding of myself and others.

        Quote: Sirocco
        Question to you, where did you get such deep knowledge in the field of aircraft industry, do I look like an aviation enthusiast, or a professional?

        I am a lover. Although he spent all his childhood in a military town, he flew in DOSAAF and jumped with a parachute and did not serve much in aviation as professionals.

        Quote: Sirocco
        How does such a deep knowledge of machine tools come from, whatever topic you raise, do you all know?

        I had to learn about the current work.

        Quote: Sirocco
        What kind of divine awareness you have, probably do not sleep at night, all learn, read, and enlighten us.

        I read and study a lot, but only during the day.
        1. Sirocco
          Sirocco 9 September 2015 08: 54 New
          +5
          Quote: Professor
          I had to learn about the current work.

          If it’s not a secret, where and by whom do you work. Idle curiosity, you can in PM))))
          1. Professor
            Professor 9 September 2015 09: 03 New
            -2
            Quote: Sirocco
            If it’s not a secret, where and by whom do you work. Idle curiosity, you can in PM))))

            Known case in the CIA. wink
            1. Tiksi-3
              Tiksi-3 9 September 2015 17: 21 New
              +5
              Quote: Professor
              Known case in the CIA.

              lying ..... rather in mi-6 ....
              1. Imperialkolorad
                Imperialkolorad 9 September 2015 18: 50 New
                +4
                Quote: Tiksi-3
                lying ..... rather in mi-6 ....

                Rather, Massad-bargaining. (Those who watched will understand).
              2. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 9 September 2015 23: 43 New
                +1
                Quote: Tiksi-3
                lying ..... rather in mi-6 ....

                One does not interfere with the other, the main thing is not to get over to a hostile camp.
                1. victor
                  victor 10 September 2015 16: 45 New
                  +3
                  More likely in SMD (means of mass debielding) - how many reviews - so much money.
          2. gladcu2
            gladcu2 10 September 2015 19: 56 New
            +2
            Sirco

            I would advise you to be attentive and respectful of emigrants. Especially for those who print their point of view on this site.

            Many of us know at least 3 languages. And often 4. Well, they understand a little more.

            By the number of professions, about 4 each. The magic number 4 is exactly the number that is actually encountered before 50 years of life.

            Life experience is not weak either. Plus a broad outlook.

            This is in defense of the professor and others. Although to be honest, the point of view of the professor is not always shared. But as a person who knows a lot, I always blame myself, because I understand that it is impossible to know everything.
        2. ICT
          ICT 9 September 2015 18: 13 New
          +2
          Quote: Professor
          not much in aviation


          strange .... belay , and I was sure that the Navy
          1. Professor
            Professor 9 September 2015 19: 07 New
            -2
            Quote: TIT
            strange .... but I was kind of sure that the Navy

            And there is. At the Red Banner Black Sea Fleet, a year in aviation (was enough) and a reservist in green. soldier
            1. ICT
              ICT 9 September 2015 20: 13 New
              +1
              Quote: Professor
              year in aviation (enough) and a reservist in green.

              what , and ... well, is it like on the promised land?
              1. victor
                victor 10 September 2015 16: 49 New
                +3
                This is like in the Internet department of some kind of structure related to knowledge of the Russian language and the ability to type more r ... in the mouth and spit in the direction of the Russians and the former union. The daughter of a Jewish officer however.
        3. Vadivak
          Vadivak 9 September 2015 18: 45 New
          +3
          Quote: ///
          MiG-21’s implacable rival in the Middle East has traditionally been the French Mirage. It combines the best of the fighters of its generation. Highest maneuverability.

          Oleg, I do not agree, you brought in the picture is not the best option
          Mirage IIIS - version for the Swiss Air Force. 35 products were purchased, with a further contract for the supply of an additional 100 products. After publications in the press about poor quality and unreliability, the supply of 100 products was refused.

        4. victor
          victor 10 September 2015 16: 42 New
          0
          How does such a deep knowledge of machine tools come from, whatever topic you raise, do you all know?

          I had to learn about the current work.
          Strong! Mr. ... Rabe is a know-it-all, however. By the way, is it easy to learn at the age of 90, young super-super ...
          1. gladcu2
            gladcu2 10 September 2015 20: 05 New
            0
            Victor.

            There are about a million "Russian" emigrants in Israel. Natives of the former USSR brought with them vast technological knowledge. In particular, CNC. Along with this, a serious school of program management was recreated in Israel. And the industry as a whole. The world leader in the production of cutting metalworking tools is Iskar.

            And I’ll add that in the north of the CNC, in addition to Russian Israelis, Indians are leading. At least 10 years ago it was.
      2. Algetxnumx
        Algetxnumx 9 September 2015 12: 35 New
        +4
        The work of them, the "elite" is such, breed srach, surfaced, farted into the hole and merged, strange to the second soldier "atalef" but, why not hear, even strange.
    3. Malkor
      Malkor 9 September 2015 08: 45 New
      +19
      If the author does not have enough education, I explain: in practice - means in practice, that is, in fact. The author at the beginning of the article categorically states that the Mig-21 and f-4 phantom did not meet practically (actually). The author of the graphomaniac is a favorite trick in Kiev by an uncle in the elderberry garden, comparing f-4 and instant-21, not finding positive characteristics of f-4 he cites f-5 as an example, he would write about shuttles - but they are cool among Americans. From article to article - the value of the content is reduced - which is a pity.
      1. dyksi
        dyksi 9 September 2015 13: 45 New
        +14
        I agree, Oleg, sometimes you bring nonsense, and sometimes complete nonsense. MiG-21 and Phantom met daily in the sky of Vietnam and MiG won against them clean. As for the Tigers, that you are comparing a full-fledged MiG-21 and a Tiger, is it possible, for example, to compare the afterburner Yak-130 and MiG-29? An equal battle only until the first afterburner on a bend, on a dead loop, on a candle and that's all. The same with the Tiger, this is a good car among the afterburners, but he has nothing to catch against military fighters, load it with weapons and he will barely come off the ground. You for whom write similar opuses? For children or something, they do not exist here. So having written that the MiG-21 did not meet with the Phantom, you wrote a lie. Write this to American veterans and listen to what they tell you. This is a story, American veterans of Vietnam admit it, and to you that the State Department pays salaries for such opuses. Do not take a cold and do not fall. You can’t win with your victories they are conquered with blood and not so that later such masters of the word rewrite history.
        1. mvg
          mvg 11 September 2015 02: 33 New
          -3
          Is there anything that Tiger was brought to Russia and he “outright” won almost ALL air battles not only at MIG-21, but also at the latest MIG-23 at that moment? And it was worth a "penny" ... compared to the F-4
    4. tomket
      tomket 9 September 2015 09: 28 New
      +12
      Quote: Professor
      Good article, minus you for Palestine

      You, too, minus "for Palestine"))))
    5. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 9 September 2015 14: 24 New
      +12
      Quote: Professor
      minus you for "Palestine."

      The professor probably meant that there was no land like Palestine, and therefore there was no sky over this land.
      The word Palestine came from the word Philistia, a place along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea where Greek banduks lived, subsequently the Romans so called the whole promised land when the Jews were dispersed, more precisely the Romans called Judea Syria Palestine.
      Cons it is advisable to justify it somehow, but it is not interesting to get on the site.
  2. mi ah
    mi ah 9 September 2015 07: 38 New
    0
    as I understand it, the MiG vs Phantom exposition presented here in the photo is inside the aircraft carrier. And there are in pieces. Virginia aircraft carrier - in the form of a museum?
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. SeregaBoss
    SeregaBoss 9 September 2015 07: 41 New
    -1
    And I liked the article, everything is clear on the shelves laid out.
    1. Talgat
      Talgat 9 September 2015 22: 52 New
      +2
      the article says that (I quote): In addition to Iran, about 70 “Phantoms” are still in service with the Japanese Air Force.

      47 "Phantoms" in service with the Turkish Air Force. 40 in South Korea. 50 from Greece.

      But they forgot to mention that Mig 21 is still being modernized in the Indian Air Force - recently there was an article on the ax
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 10 September 2015 11: 02 New
        +2
        Quote: Talgat
        But they forgot to mention that Mig 21 is still being modernized in the Indian Air Force - recently there was an article on the ax

        And not only them
  5. inkass_98
    inkass_98 9 September 2015 08: 42 New
    +11
    Something Oleg reached for the sky laughing from the sea. And about the fact that the “Phantom” was a flying log / iron with the grace of an elephant, no one hid it, it only flew due to the wonderful J-79 engines with which the anvil would fly.
    1. Hairy Siberian
      Hairy Siberian 9 September 2015 19: 19 New
      +4
      The plane was normal for its time - the world's first truly multi-role fighter.
      The world's first mass-produced fighter carrying medium-range missiles. It was the first among American vehicles to be able to locate and destroy targets outside of visual contact without the aid of a ground guidance station.
  6. Azzi
    Azzi 9 September 2015 09: 27 New
    +1
    A pragmatic view of things did not bother anyone. Article plus.
  7. tomket
    tomket 9 September 2015 09: 29 New
    +9
    Oleg Kaptsov this time as a whistleblower and subverter of the Cold War myths. It turned out not convincingly and biased. Deserved minus.
  8. Pimply
    Pimply 9 September 2015 09: 55 New
    +9
    For starters, it’s still the National Museum of Aviation and Cosmonautics, which has the world's largest collection of historical aircraft and spacecraft. Here is a photo from a different angle.

    [img] https://travelforaircraft.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/blog-sublime_mg_9530.


    jpg? w = 1200 & h = 486 [/ img]


    But the composition that you write about is still there. 8) In the background are F-105 and C-75

    [img] https://travelforaircraft.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/blog-sublime_mg_9608.
    jpg? w = 1200 & h = 624 [/ img]


    Oleg, once again you are fond of the idea and do not double-check the facts. A-ta-ta.
    1. Santa Fe
      9 September 2015 22: 56 New
      0
      Quote: Pimply
      it's still the National Museum of Aviation and Cosmonautics, which has the world's largest collection of historical aircraft and spaceships

      But he is NOT in Washington

      in fact - a network of museums, the largest branch in Virginia. This is where this installation is.
      Quote: Pimply
      lay down, once again addicted to the idea and do not double-check the facts. A-ta-ta.

      Atata

      UDVAR-HAZY CENTER IN CHANTILLY, VA
      Today's Hours: 10: 00 am to 5: 30 pm
      14390 Air and Space Museum Parkway Chantilly, Virginia 20151
      Phone: 703-572-411
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 10 September 2015 02: 23 New
        +2
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        UDVAR-HAZY CENTER IN CHANTILLY, VA
        Today's Hours: 10: 00 am to 5: 30 pm
        14390 Air and Space Museum Parkway Chantilly, Virginia 20151
        Phone: 703-572-411

        Well, in short, it is located a few miles from the main complex near Washington Dulles International Airport. They are 32,6 miles away, 40 minutes away from each other. To prevent confusion - not at the other end of the country, but very close to the main complex.
        In short, I also have an atata. But the atat is not removed for you, because this place is advertised everywhere as a single complex that can be visited in one day, located at the airport, which is directly related to Washington, and the second composition is no less directly related to the museum. And the museum is yes - with the largest collection.
        1. Santa Fe
          10 September 2015 03: 57 New
          -1
          Quote: Pimply
          this place is advertised everywhere as a single complex,

          the address is indicated everywhere. it is different for each of the places

          the most famous M. aviation and astronautics in Washington, because in the center

          Quote: Pimply
          And the museum is yes - with the largest collection.

          but hell with two
          the largest - National Museum of the United States Air Force on the Wright Patterson a / c in Ohio, 400 LA exposition
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 10 September 2015 11: 00 New
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            the address is indicated everywhere. it is different for each of the places

            the most famous M. aviation and astronautics in Washington, because in the center

            http://airandspace.si.edu/about/&usg=ALkJrhg_Da-lxdUNM3EYFi8g_NLRT58hMQ

            For starters, your own positioning. Position themselves as "one museum in two places."

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            but hell with two
            the largest - National Museum of the United States Air Force on the Wright Patterson a / c in Ohio, 400 LA exposition

            Are we talking about exposition, or about the collection as a whole? The Smithsonian Institution is officially recognized as the largest with 60000 + exhibits, one third of which is unique. The main exposition is a small part, there is a constant rotation of exhibitions. No, he can talk about the number of devices in a permanent exhibition. But that will be another conversation.
  9. RPG_
    RPG_ 9 September 2015 11: 10 New
    0
    As always, the cruel truth. The author is a well-deserved plus for his efforts and truth.
  10. Yarik
    Yarik 9 September 2015 11: 12 New
    -1
    Most likely this is true. My father was there on business trips a couple of times. Something similar, and he told. The meat grinder was specific.
  11. Radimir
    Radimir 9 September 2015 11: 39 New
    +2
    the same thing but from a different angle
    1. Santa Fe
      9 September 2015 23: 02 New
      0
      Best exhibit:
  12. Coast
    Coast 9 September 2015 11: 42 New
    -2
    Mirage III has no PGO. In the photo of the Swiss aircraft, it is clearly "Swede".
  13. Radimir
    Radimir 9 September 2015 11: 42 New
    0
    and a phantom in profile from there ...
  14. Radimir
    Radimir 9 September 2015 11: 46 New
    0
    in general, apricots love fables there to poison about all kinds of confrontations, in the same aviation museum (Smithsonian, Washington) stands MiG-15 against their Saber
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. Radimir
    Radimir 9 September 2015 11: 55 New
    +4
    and the Abriskosovsky trough-Saber in profile ...

    I had to visit three museums in the US aerospace museums - two in yours, one in LA, but I haven’t yet realized my dream of visiting a Russian museum, I was at VDNKh in Almaty in owls. a separate exposition and a pavilion - and no ... all the dogs, shit-democrats, ex-communists, nouveau riche capitalists have unkempt and sold out the unfinished bourgeois, I don’t even know what to show their children, by the way with the coming 7523, I still don’t understand why "Petruchio -1 "switched to geyropeysky chronology ...
  17. iouris
    iouris 9 September 2015 12: 03 New
    +6
    Strictly speaking, the MiG-21 is a specialized aircraft (light maneuverable fighter-interceptor) of generation 2 ++, F-4 is a “tactical fighter” of generation 3. Therefore, it is heavy and “advanced” (at the level of technology of its time). Comparing these aircraft, at least, is incorrect. The American analogue of the MiG-21 was the F-104 (or vice versa).
    It is much more interesting to see what happened next. Then we got the MiG-23 (P.S.Kutakhov's favorite plane), and in the USA F-16 and F-15. So the influence and reverse influence is visible. However, the American response was high-tech, so both aircraft are tactical fighters. In the USSR, due to the backwardness of the element base of airborne complexes, the F-4 concept was divided into two lines: an interceptor fighter with R-23 long-range combat missiles (main weapon) and a MiG-27 attack aircraft (on the ground). In parallel, the Su-15 and Su-17 developed. However, some authors believe that the MiG-23 is inferior to the F-4.
    As for Israel, he did not buy the F-4, but received it. There was no alternative at that time.
  18. iaf-man
    iaf-man 9 September 2015 14: 15 New
    -1
    Quote: dyksi
    As for the Tigers, that you are comparing a full-fledged MiG-21 and a Tiger, is it possible, for example, to compare the afterburner Yak-130 and MiG-29? An equal battle only until the first afterburner on a bend, on a dead loop, on a candle and that's all. The same with the Tiger, this is a good car among the afterburners, but he has nothing to catch against military fighters, load it with weapons and he will barely come off the ground.


    Dear, you would at least read and compare the data of both aircraft, even on Wikipedia everything is well laid out.
    The F-5 had 2 afterburners J-85. Moreover, the take-off weight of these aircraft is similar, about 11000 kg. And this despite the fact that the MIG-21 engine power is almost 1.5 times more. And about the weight of weapons-F-5 took the maximum load is about 3 tons, and the MIG-21 seems to be only half (although the latter may be slightly larger)
    Here's about the F-5:
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
    1. 79057330785
      79057330785 9 September 2015 15: 16 New
      +6
      The F-5 performed well in all wars, Soviet experts praised its serviceability (it was possible to service the aircraft without using a stepladder), a comfortable cabin (good view down) and of course a large payload
  19. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 9 September 2015 14: 37 New
    +2
    "It remains a mystery why the Israelis bought these cars." ///

    In the 60s, Israel was not yet friends with America. They bought everything
    sell, the Europeans. Only after Kennedy began cooperation
    with the Americans.

    And Mirage-3 just copied, improved and made Kfir. Israeli spy
    sat in Dassault for a week and copied drawings on microfilm at night.

    The phantom was used in Israel only as a bomber. He had a huge
    engine thrust - took bombs more than its own weight. Far more than prescribed
    load in american specifications.
    1. Aleksandr72
      Aleksandr72 9 September 2015 17: 48 New
      +6
      Dear voyaka uh. As far as I know, Phantoms in Israel were used not only as bombers, but also for their intended purpose - as a fighter. It was in this role that the F-4 fighters, along with the Mirages, took part in the only air battle (in any case known to me) with the MiG-21 fighters piloted by Soviet pilots. Actually the battle over the Suez Canal 30.07.1970/XNUMX/XNUMX:
      The Israelis, knowing about the participation of Soviet pilots on the MiG-21 in the hostilities on the side of Egypt, decided to teach them a lesson. The operation received the code name "Branch" (I don’t know how to speak Hebrew). For this operation, the Phantoms link F-4E (4 aircraft) and two Mirage IIICJ links (8 aircraft) were assigned, piloted by their 12 best aces from the Israeli Air Force, having a total of 59 victories over the Arab Air Force. First, a pair of Phantoms, under cover of 4 Mirages, attacked a radar station on the western (Egyptian) bank of the Suez Canal in the afternoon — it was a bait for Soviet pilots. After the attack, the Phantoms went home, and the Mirages went deep into Egyptian territory. Eight Soviet MiG-12MFs, commander Captain Kamenev, went up to intercept them after 8 minutes. At 21, the first contact took place, another 14 Mirage entered the back of the Soviet pilots. Reinforcements from 20 Soviet MiGs were raised from the ground. At this time, the Israeli electronic warfare and countermeasures completely "drowned" the Soviet and Egyptian radars, clogged the radio with interference. As a result, Soviet pilots, accustomed in training (I repeat - training battles) to high-speed interceptions in their radar field, were completely "blinded and deafened." The Israelis also approached reinforcements in the form of 4 Phantoms under the command of Avihu ben Nun (commander of the first Israeli squadron armed with Phantoms). As a result of the ensuing battle (in which the Mirages fought a maneuvering battle, while the Phantoms launched missiles from medium distances), four Soviet aircraft were shot down without loss from the Israeli Air Force. The first MiG was shot down by a cannon burst from the Mirage, the second MiG was shot down by a Sparrow missile launched by Avihu bin Nun. Israel claims that the Soviet Air Force lost 12 MiG-4s, allegedly the fifth crashed while landing, being damaged in battle, 4 of them were shot down by Mirages, 5 by Phantoms. The pilots of the F-21E Avihu ben Nun and Aviye Sella and Mirages Asher Smir and Abraham Shalmon distinguished themselves. According to Soviet data, 3 aircraft were shot down: captains Zhuravlev, Yurchenko and Yakovlev were killed, the fourth pilot managed to eject. The planes were shot down (one at a time) by Sparrow, Shafrir and Sidewinder missiles, as well as a 2 mm cannon. I believe it is necessary to note that in this battle the Israeli aces met, having rich combat experience of modern air warfare and Soviet pilots, although they were first-class trained, but before that they had "fought" only at the training grounds, where high-altitude interception of air targets by means of missiles was fully practiced controlled by its radar means the sky.
      Correct me if I incorrectly transcribed the names and surnames of Israeli pilots.
      I have the honor.
      PS Source is not Wikipedia!
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 9 September 2015 18: 19 New
        0
        I read about this fight, but without details.
        While the USSR was about this in Israel (by mutual agreement)
        did not publish.
        Thanks for the interesting info.
        1. Professor
          Professor 9 September 2015 19: 10 New
          -3
          Quote: voyaka uh
          While the USSR was about this in Israel (by mutual agreement)
          did not publish.

          Published. I even saw an interview with one of the participants in the battle on ITV.
    2. iouris
      iouris 11 September 2015 13: 41 New
      0
      In wrote "Israel was not friends with America." This can only be true in the sense that the "tail that wags the dog" has the right to some autonomy.
  20. tolancop
    tolancop 9 September 2015 15: 08 New
    +1
    I saw the MiG-21 monument in the photo and for some reason, memories immediately surged: a worthy airplane of monuments deserves itself. I don’t know where Mig is shown in the photo, but I personally know 3 monuments: Novocherkassk (near 31? Factories), Krasnoyarsk (Green Grove), Old Town (Kubinka) ...
    Surely a lot has been found. A kind of air T-34.
    1. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 10 September 2015 15: 57 New
      0
      In Bataisk there is a monument in the area of ​​Aviagorodka.
  21. The point
    The point 9 September 2015 15: 12 New
    +2
    A bit of lyrics.

    1. Vivan
      Vivan 14 September 2015 01: 12 New
      0
      C 2:20 a.m. - 2:40 p.m. - a Vietnamese translation officer leads a captured French general, Major De Castries (commander of the garrison Dienbienfu in 1954) to the command of the Vietnamese People’s Army for interrogation.
  22. van zai
    van zai 9 September 2015 18: 54 New
    -1
    Article plus. Finally, well-written material without the "cheers of patriotism".
    1. Wasiliy1985
      Wasiliy1985 9 September 2015 20: 03 New
      +6
      Still, there would be a translation of a similar article from the American press, where "they" have finally "correctly written material without" patriotism "- then I would have painted a plus for the author of the article.
      And then in any Hollywood action movie the American "cheers patriotism" is simply over the edge!
      The Russians really like to really consider their shortcomings and then lay it out under the guise of - "Well, I’m telling you everything, as in spirit!" In short, we sprinkle ashes on our heads.
      Before all the trash!
      Anglo-Saxons about their skeletons in the closet prefer to remain silent, and they can inflate any mote in the eye of a "potential adversary" to a log!
      In short, my opinion (purely advertising):
      Mig and Su are the coolest fighters in the world to date. All American "F-XX" - a complete d @ obviously and stupid cut of the money of American taxpayers!
      The captain of "America" ​​nervously smokes aside after he learned about the exploits of Smirnov Alexei Makarovich ("Makarych" from "Only Old Men Are Going to the Battle").
      Native Americans are real rebels! (By the way, is it possible to demand from the United Nations the introduction of a “no-fly zone” over the SGA, as one of the parties to the conflict ?! And is it possible to arrange for the delivery of “non-lethal weapons” to the Indian rebels in the form of AK-47 & AK-74 with their belongings ..?)
      California is native Russian territory (Indians will confirm)!
      And the agreement on the sale of Alaska with the Aleutian Islands is generally considered null and void, as it is clearly corrupt!

      That's all for now! :) :)
      1. doxtop
        doxtop 9 September 2015 23: 49 New
        0
        )) Have fun however!
        but ... I agree! hi
  23. Wasiliy1985
    Wasiliy1985 9 September 2015 19: 02 New
    +1
    Link to the author - http://www.airforce.ru/staff/fighter/index.htm

    In addition to not writing abusive style in the future:

    "MiG-21 is also well done, did not disappoint.

    On January 9, they covered up another convoy from Termez to Fayzabad. There was a motorized rifle regiment, with trucks and equipment, covered with "armor" from its head and tail. The column passed Talukan and headed towards Kishima. Stretched, the column formed a gap of a kilometer, where there was neither “armor” nor fire weapons. There the rebels struck.

    From our Chirchik regiment, we were the first to pick up a couple of captain’s flight commander Alexander Mukhin, who was on alert No. 1 on his plane. A group of leaders flew after him. The excitement was great, everyone wanted to fight, to be noted in business. Upon returning, the commanders immediately changed the plane, changing into waiting fighters prepared. The rest had to be content with sitting in the cabins in readiness, waiting for the line. The pilots flew in excitedly, telling them just like in a movie about Chapaev: they shot NURSs from UB-32 blocks at a crowd of cavalry and foot dushmans, practically in an open area. Then they chopped decently ... "

    I hope the author of the article carefully reads the notes of the Soviet MiG-21 pilot in Afghanistan at the specified link and finds there the necessary data for conclusions about the flight training of our aircraft.
    1. Santa Fe
      10 September 2015 04: 03 New
      0
      Quote: Wasiliy1985
      In addition to not writing abusive style in the future:

      what did you see bawdy

      or just wanted to fart, but what exactly did not know.

      The 115th Orshansky Guards of the Orders of Kutuzov and Alexander Nevsky, the fighter aviation regiment, was one of the most titled aviation units of Soviet aviation. Having been formed on the eve of the Great Patriotic War near Odessa, the regiment passed the war with honor from the first to the last day, participated in battles in Belarus and the Baltic states, completing the military route in May 1945 in Czechoslovakia. In memory of military merits, one of the regiment's squadrons carried the honorary name "Moscow", the other was called "Soviet Lithuania". However, the involvement of the regiment to participate in the Afghan campaign was dictated by no means the same combat merit. There was simply nothing to choose from, in fact - the 115 IAP at that time was the only fighter aviation regiment of front-line aviation in the entire TurkMO. Other forces here were represented by interceptors of the air defense forces, but their involvement in the air group was not provided.
  24. The comment was deleted.
  25. kig
    kig 10 September 2015 03: 08 New
    0
    These aircraft were created for completely different purposes (http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/vietnam/mig21/mig21.html) and therefore to compare is an empty lesson. They are different. They are mentioned together only because they were born at the same time and participated in many conflicts of those times.

    Here is a photo from the Seattle Aviation Museum, Americans kindly painted all the TTD:
    1. Santa Fe
      10 September 2015 04: 04 New
      -3
      Quote: kig
      Americans kindly painted all the TTD:

      100 air battles on 5 million sorties

      And these are Migi of all types!
  26. swordsman
    swordsman 10 September 2015 15: 11 New
    0
    There is still a monument in Krasnodar
  27. Termit1309
    Termit1309 13 September 2015 03: 41 New
    +1
    No better was his “eternal rival” MiG-21. Only instead of the multifunctional Westinghouse radar, capable of directing URs, and the infrared sighting system for ground targets, the MiG only had a RP-21 radio receiver.
    As on the Phantom, the gun on the MiG was completely absent at first. The ability to suspend the container with the GSH-23 appeared only in 1964. Built-in guns began to be installed, starting with the modification of the MiG-21М (1968 year).

    Maybe someone will be shocked, but the “Phantom” built-in gun appeared much earlier (F-4E, the most numerous series, 1965). And the gun itself was more decent - a six-barreled Volcano with ammunition of 640 rounds (versus 200 for GSh-23

    SW Kaptsov, maybe this will be a shock for you, but there were guns on the MiG-21. Since 1959 Modification Mig-21f-13, two 30mm guns. MiG-21F-13 was widely exported.
    There were no guns on the Mig-21P modification. Produced from 1962 to 1968.
    And as far as I remember for export in the 60s, this modification was supplied only to India. In 1966. And it was the Indian pilots who did not like the lack of a gun. By the way, it was pretty quickly added in a hanging container.
  28. iouris
    iouris 13 September 2015 15: 21 New
    0
    A serious drawback of the MiG-21 is its small range. The suspension of any weapon negatively affected the flight range. So, I remember, the flight range of the Su-15 with the suspension of the gun in the container was reduced by 500 km. In this regard, the Su-27 made a real revolution. But this was achieved, in particular, due to static instability. So evolution, which is known (not quite deservedly) as the “Pugachev cobra”, is just a side effect that is mercilessly exploited in all kinds of shows. But the main thing, nevertheless, is the flight range (it seems 4000 km is a phenomenal result for our fighter).
    1. TT62
      TT62 13 September 2015 19: 43 New
      0
      About everything and about nothing. We all learned a little, something and how.
  29. sivuch
    sivuch 15 September 2015 15: 10 New
    0
    The article is surprisingly illiterate. It is impossible to list all the errors, I will try only the main ones.
    . The Soviet MiG-21 and the American Phantom almost never met each other. The categorical “never” is quite appropriate in this context. Dozens of episodes in more than two decades of continuous warfare -----------------
    A few dozen? And not a few hundred? By the way, there was another war that the author mentioned in a nutshell - II. It lasted a long time and there were plenty of air battles, especially in its first period. By the way, the Mig-21 wasn’t there He showed himself very much for many reasons. It’s just that you need to judge her not according to Hirokhov and, moreover, not according to the signs of Tom Cooper
    .At low altitudes - a fiery storm. On large - hell and doom. The Union supplied Vietnam with 60 S-75 Dvina air defense divisions and 7500 powerful anti-aircraft missiles
    ------------------------------
    It would be better if there were less pathos and more facts. Yes, during the time of the king of peas, they put a lot, but there weren’t any radar, and especially ACS, that is, the POISO of the times of the Great Patriotic War, yes, they were for sure. But at least there were Vases - I doubt it very much. But there were no ASURKs before 82. That is, there weren’t at all. And there were situations when several SA-75 divisions (this, by the way, is not the same as the S-75) beat to one unfortunate Firebi. But the S-125 appeared only in the year 72 for hat analysis. Vietnamese could only dream of Cubes and Krugs (although Davidov wrote that the Krug-A division was in Vietnam. Even if so, as a military test )
    . He combined the best of the fighters of his generation. Highest maneuverability. Excellent radar Thompson Cyrano with an instrumental range of 50 km, capable of notifying the pilot about obstacles exceeding a given height, and finding radio-contrast objects on the ground --------------
    This is about the third Mirage. Yes, the car is epoch-making. But there were plenty of shortcomings. The highest maneuverability is the a-h, in the horizontal plane due to the light load on the wing. But the thrust-weight ratio is, as it were, softer .. Yes, and the ability of Atar engines to catch surges also added adrenaline .Excellent radar? - I’ll remember that she was rather skeptical about the reliability of the thief online. It’s not by chance that they were shot in Israel. Yes, and in more detail — what obstacles exceeding the given height are we talking about? background of free space?
    .Another was an additional liquid propellant rocket engine - 80 seconds of continuous fire - with the help of it the Mirage could go out of the battle with an arrow and soar up 29 kilometers ---------------------
    And here is the request to enlighten me - personally, I have not read anywhere that the LRE was at least somewhere on production vehicles.
    .In general, “Fantomas” was a complete log, whose characteristics were hardly offset by the highly trained pilots of Hel Aavir .-----------------------
    Yes, this F-4E with automatic slats was a flying log? Look at the tables with horizontal maneuverability, accelerating x-mi (on the forums.eagle.ru website, for example).
    Bye