Two Ukraine and one solution

50
Two Ukraine and one solution

With all its relevance and obvious chances for successful implementation, the Eurasian integration proclaimed by Putin may stumble upon a serious obstacle in the form of Ukraine

Vladimir Putin dedicated his programmatic article to the Eurasian Union. Society this message was taken very seriously. The article itself was very cautious and moderate, it once again emphasized the importance of integration processes in the economy for post-Soviet countries. However, those familiar with the issue saw something more in it - a brief and succinct presentation of a very specific strategic course, which is likely to become the axis of Putin’s reign after his return to the presidency in March 2012.

Putin speaks mainly about the economy, but nonetheless does not limit himself to listing economic integration initiatives (the Customs Union, EurAsEC, CES) and at the end of the text utters the cherished phrase - “Eurasian Union”, unambiguously hinting at an analogue of the European Union. And this cannot be an accident: Putin outlines a higher geopolitical and political goal over the processes of economic integration. Creation of a new supranational entity in the territory of Northern Eurasia, built on a community of civilizational belonging.

As the European Union, uniting countries and societies belonging to the European civilization, began with the unification of coal and steel, in order to gradually develop into a new supranational entity with its own, while nominal, but president, parliament, with its currency and general socio-economic strategy, and the Eurasian Union is designated by Putin as a long-term reference point, goal, horizon of the historical path. And this is serious.

Declaration of the Eurasian Union: semantics

The ideas of the Eurasian Union from the beginning of the 90-ies were developed in parallel in two countries - in Kazakhstan by President N. A. Nazarbayev and in Russia by the "Eurasian Movement". Nazarbayev, in 1994, in Moscow, voiced this project of political integration of the post-Soviet space and even proposed a draft constitution of the Eurasian Union, which in general repeats the constitution of the European Union. In the epoch of general collapse and intensive separatist processes, this looked extravagant and clearly out of time. But Nazarbayev’s insight can be envied, he clearly understood then that sooner or later the moment for political Eurasian integration would surely come.

On the other hand, the ideas of the Eurasian Union were actively developed by the Eurasian Movement in Russia, continuing the line of the first Russian Eurasians who laid the foundations of this political philosophy. The creation of the Eurasian Union has become the main historical, the political and ideological goal of Russian Eurasians, since this project embodied all the basic values ​​and ideals of Eurasianism as a complete political philosophy.
Thus, Putin, referring to the Eurasian Union, designated a political concept, loaded with colossal political and geopolitical sense.

The Eurasian Union as a concrete embodiment of the Eurasian project contains at the same time three levels: planetary, regional and domestic.
On a planetary scale, we are talking about the establishment of a multipolar model instead of a unipolar or "non-polar" (global) world, where only a powerful integrated regional entity can be a pole (exceeding in scale, its aggregate economic, military-strategic and energy potential separately even the largest powers).

On a regional scale, it is about creating an integration education capable of representing the pole of a multipolar world. In the West, such an integration project can be the European Union. For Russia, this means the integration of the post-Soviet space into a single strategic bloc.
At the domestic political level, Eurasianism is identical to the assertion of strategic centralism, which does not allow even a hint of the presence within the country of the prototypes of national statehood represented by the subjects of the federation. But at the same time it means strengthening the cultural, linguistic and social identity of those ethnic groups that traditionally belong to Russia.

In his assessments of the international situation, Putin has repeatedly declared multipolarity. In recent years, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov regularly mentions a “polycentric world order” as the most desirable model for organizing the structure of international relations.
Putin started talking about the need to distinguish between a nation (political education) and ethnic groups in domestic politics from the spring-summer of 2011, and this means that here the Eurasian model was adopted.

Thus, the mention of the Eurasian Union is not something isolated, but enters the context of the system model that Putin is consistently building on the eve of his new presidency. All three Eurasian vectors are available.
So, we need to prepare for the fact that it is Eurasianism, and not liberal democracy (as many supporters of the current President Dmitry Medvedev expected) to become the prevailing political philosophy in Russia in the very near future.
But from this joyful statement for Eurasians and not very joyful for atlantists and Westerners, one should turn to the question of what are the real prospects for the creation of a Eurasian Union? What resources for this integration do we have? What obstacles and challenges await us on this path? Which of the neighboring countries can we count on? Who should be expected to counter or trick?

Reconcile with reality

It is possible to analyze the process of Eurasian integration and its prerequisites with any degree of detail. And such monitoring should be done regularly and at various levels. But if we talk about the hierarchy of problems, then the most serious and deepest problem today is the Ukrainian question.
The Eurasian Union will be created in its core, if it includes Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine. This is a necessary and sufficient minimum of integration. This in no way diminishes the meaning of other states, but these four countries create a critical mass that will allow us to speak with confidence about the creation of the Eurasian Union. These countries make the Union a reality - irreversibly and decisively.

With respect to Kazakhstan and Belarus, there are no fundamental problems. Separate details can slow down integration, but the presidents of these countries consistently and steadily pursue a line on integration with Russia into a single supranational entity. This is the political will of both Nazarbayev and Lukashenko. Separate difficulties should not overshadow the main thing: our countries as a whole are ready for integration, and their political leadership as a whole shares precisely the Eurasian positions. Putin with his initiative in this matter is not the first. But the fate of the Eurasian Union depends on Moscow and its political will. Without Russia's determination, consistency and efficiency, there can be no integration at all.
But where the real problems begin is in Ukraine. This is the weakest point of integration and the biggest question for the prospects for the creation of a Eurasian Union.

Ukrainian problem: civilization dimension

In the light of the creation of the Eurasian Union, Ukraine is a real problem. This problem cannot be reduced only to the capriciousness, unprincipledness and venality of the Ukrainian political elites, who prefer to bargain with the West and Russia for volumes of influence, gaining their own capital on this. It is also wrong to reduce everything to the presence of Ukrainian nationalism or the work of American networks of influence. These factors are present, but are not decisive. Everything is much more complicated.

The fact is that regional integration presupposes the existence of a common civilizational basis. It is on this principle that the countries of the European Union were united, and it also forms the basis of Eurasian integration. Unite societies with similar civilization code.

In this sense, Ukraine is a society with a dual identity. We see in her an Eastern Orthodox Slavic country with the same historical roots as the Great Russians and Belarusians. But at the same time, since the epoch of specific Russia, the contradictions between the western and eastern Russian principalities have become not only significant, but also affect the geopolitical and sociological foundations of the respective societies. The struggle between the Vladimir and Galitsky princes for the Kiev Grand Duke's throne reflects not just the intradynastic squabbles of the Rurik elder branch, but also two types of society, which gradually establish themselves in the east and west of Ancient Russia.

Vladimir Russia to the autocratic model, Galician and Volyn Rus more reproduces the feudal-aristocratic model of its Eastern European neighbors (Poland, Hungary, etc.). In the Horde period, this civilizational division intensifies, and gradually the western regions of the former united Kievan Rus acquire quite distinctive civilizational features - with the strong influence of the Lithuanian principle, Polish gentry, Catholicism and uniatism.

At the same time, not all the territory of present-day Ukraine can be defined as the Russian West: this Western Russian identity was really deep-rooted only in Western Ukraine, where it became predominant. In eastern Ukraine, on the contrary, the all-Russian type dominates, mixed with the Cossack social tradition. In central Ukraine, a mixed society. Crimea is predominantly populated by Great Russians.

The West-Ukrainian factor claims to form, on its basis, around itself as a core, a special “Ukrainian nation” that affirms its differences primarily in the face of Russia and its social identity. The Ukrainian idea is thus an anti-Russian, anti-Moscow idea. For this segment of the Ukrainian society, Europe is a natural civilization environment, and Russia is seen as a “colonial force”. It is here that the origins of Ukrainian nationalism originate, influencing to one degree or another on all Ukrainian society.

No matter how we feel about this, it is necessary to accept an empirical fact: in the composition of modern Ukraine, there is a substantial “zapadensky” component that consistently and persistently attributes Ukraine to European civilization and considers any rapprochement with the East as “new enslavement of Ukraine under the fifth Muscovites”. This is a steady trend, not a result of surface propaganda. In this case, we are dealing with a refusal to recognize a common civilizational identity with Russia, and, therefore, a very serious objection to any integration initiatives. Given this pole, Ukraine cannot fully enter the integration process, which means that the prospect of creating a Eurasian Union is being postponed.

The value of Ukraine

But in order for the Eurasian Union to become a truly powerful world pole of a multipolar polycentric architecture, Ukraine must necessarily be inside it. This is well understood by geopolitics, including American, unequivocally opposing the strengthening of the role of Russia and Eurasia as a whole in the world. So, Zbigniew Brzezinski warns in his articles and books about the need to embroil Ukraine with Russia by any means in order to deprive this potential bloc of even the theoretical possibility of becoming a serious independent force in the future that can limit US interests in this zone of the world and pursue its policy independent of the Americans. If Ukraine joins the Eurasian bloc, Susha wins. If it can be torn off and brought under the control of atlantism, the West acquires the most important trump card and gets into its own hands a powerful lever of deterring Russia's potential geopolitical revival.

Therefore, Moscow cannot just delete Ukraine from the integration project and the whole process of building the Eurasian Union? To become successful, he must somehow solve the Ukrainian problem.

Eastern Ukraine - integration card

In Ukrainian society, along with the Western core, there is another sociocultural field, which, on the contrary, is towards Russia, stands for integration, is aware of the proximity, if not identity, with Great Russians and Belarusians. In this vein, the factors of the common historical past, and Orthodoxy as the predominant religion, and the Russian language, and the cultural and psychological proximity of societies work. In Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, this identity is predominant, which is reflected in the constant and unchanged electoral process, when residents of the East and Crimea steadily vote for those politicians who promise rapprochement with Russia or at least establishing good neighborly relations with it. This is a powerful potential for integration, which in no case should not be neglected.

Ukraine today consists of two identities, two peoples. The Western core is aware of itself as part of Europe. Eastern and southern regions refer to the Russian-Eurasian civilization. The East has nothing against integration, the West opposes it stubbornly and purposefully. The border between civilizations, in the case of Ukraine, does not coincide with state borders, but divides this country into two almost equal parts, passing approximately along the Dnieper. The right bank to Europe, the left bank to Russia and, accordingly, to the Eurasian Union and other forms of integration (preliminary and economic - the Customs Union, the Common Economic Space, etc.).
So, there are two Ukraine, and not one, and at the same time their geopolitical vectors are directly opposite.

Three integration strategies of Ukraine

How in such a situation should we move towards the creation of a Eurasian Union, if this goal is not simple desire or election rhetoric, but a clearly set goal based on historical and political will and readiness to use serious resources in this process?
Based on the position of realism in international relations, you can call things by their own names and sketch a number of scenarios, not particularly complying with the rules and norms of diplomatic correctness.

The first scenario: the partition of Ukraine. Ukraine as a state in the current borders is something completely new, it does not have a well-established historical tradition, and the political contradictions tearing it away reflect its artificial character. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to create a common national idea capable of uniting the nation on the basis of two mutually exclusive sociological and civilizational attitudes. Associated with this is the volatility of Ukrainian politics, its grotesque and almost balagan character.

The initiators of the development of the national idea are the Westerners, but its wording is stubbornly rejected by the societies of the east and south of Ukraine. Therefore, no idea and can not be formulated. And, most likely, will not succeed. Therefore, it is possible to predict the collapse of this country into two zones - the western and south-eastern. In this case, the southeast zone is naturally integrated into the Eurasian Union and the problem is solved.
Are there any prerequisites for such a turn of events? Of course, there is, and in recent years, Ukraine has repeatedly stood on the verge of civil conflict, especially after the Orange Revolution.

Does Russia have the levers to facilitate such a turn of affairs? There is, and if necessary they can be created additionally. If we treat Eurasian integration with full responsibility, then such a scenario cannot be excluded.

The second scenario: a difficult game with the pragmatic leadership of Ukraine in order to convince him to accept the integration project under the pressure of circumstances or taking into account the serious and tangible political, economic and energy benefits. This scenario could be bloodless, but the degree of its probability would increase if Ukraine faced very serious socio-economic difficulties. The economic crisis and increasing chaos in the European and world economies create favorable conditions for this. If you wait for the right moment, if possible trying not to ease, but aggravate the difficulties, Kiev may find itself in a situation where it simply does not have any other way out than Eurasian integration.

To implement this scenario, diplomatic services should be put on high alert, include detailed monitoring and geopolitical analysis of events that affect Ukraine in one way or another on a global or regional scale. Launch a project of close work with the Ukrainian elites, deploy network processes on the territory of Ukraine, similar to the Western, but with a reverse geopolitical sign - towards integration and rapprochement with Russia. The factor of energy, economic and legal pressure in this will undoubtedly play a significant role, but one should not forget about other multifactor opportunities to exert influence - including through social, scientific, cultural, informational and other projects. This should be a real battle for Ukraine, involving from Russia the most talented and passionary cadres thrown into the cause of integration.

One cannot ignore the importance of social problems, the existence of which will facilitate the implementation of these plans.
The third scenario (the most avant-garde) is to work closely with the core of Ukrainian zapadensky nationalism, which, ideologically, by definition and the laws of the genre cannot be fully in harmony with the cultural values ​​of liberalism, individualism, tolerance, multiculturalism, human rights ideology and other postmodern standards dominant in modern western society. The West in recent decades has put nationalism and any form of collective identity virtually outlawed. National states merge into a single civil society. In such a situation, the construction of the “Ukrainian nation” becomes a project completely incompatible with the Western liberal system of values. For pragmatic and anti-Russian motives, Western networks of influence support Ukrainian nationalism, but in fact it will be outlawed (like all other forms of nationalism) as soon as it merges with Western society.
Ukrainian nationalism, as we have seen, is the main obstacle to the implementation of the Eurasian integration project. But you can try to turn poison into medicine, and the enemy into a friend. The Eurasian Union should be thought of as a model that preserves the traditions and cultural characteristics of societies, ethnic groups and organic groups. Consequently, Ukrainians as an identity can be preserved only in its composition, whereas in a liberal individualistic European society, collective identity will quickly undergo erosion and then be criminalized. It is precisely with this that national movements in Eastern European countries face, increasingly recognizing that, having come out of Soviet control, they find themselves in an equally dependent situation, only now from new ideological masters, liberals, who, however, also suppress nationalism, as earlier Soviet ideological instances.

Ukraine as a challenge to the next term of Putin’s presidency

Among these three strategies, one can choose one, or two can be conducted simultaneously in parallel, and with a certain skill of owning foreign policy tools, one could try to move forward in all directions simultaneously in an American fashion. If enough will, intelligence and perseverance are applied to this, it is possible to count on success.

Having dealt with the Ukrainian problem for many years, I clearly noted one circumstance: Moscow has not yet made a decisive choice in favor of integration, has not made efforts in this direction, has not developed any effective structures designed to act actively and consistently. The whole policy was hesitant; from hard pressure (as if it was a question of a simple economic competitor) turned to unjustified and unconditional concessions; at the same time, corruption schemes for mastering the budget by various rogue political consultants finally killed all hope of consistency, consistency and efficiency. The valve and the personal arrangements of the first persons were the main and only argument. It is not surprising in such a situation that today no solid and outstanding success in this direction has been made. And this is putting it mildly.

If Putin’s words about the Eurasian Union have a real content, then the situation simply has to change. Everything is quite simple here: either Russia is engaged in integration for real, or imitates the process. In the second case, everything will be exactly as it is now. If the decision is made, then everything in the sphere of Russian-Ukrainian relations should change. And in the very near future.

Eurasian integration can either be done or not done. All intermediate, escaping and containing in themselves internal contradiction scenarios, in fact, paralyzing activity in all directions, have exhausted themselves. For Putin, as the future president, a clear and consistent strategy is needed; the limit of inertial gratitude of the population for the country he saved from collapse and collapse at the beginning of the 2000-s is almost exhausted. Putin needs something new, aimed at the future, understandable to the majority of the population, implemented consistently, decisively, effectively. Eurasian integration is a worthy goal and a serious historical challenge. Putin will cope with this - he will truly strengthen his legitimacy, create it anew. He will not cope - he will continue to exploit the old services and will create a lot of problems for himself and the country and us.

Putin returns to the Kremlin as a Eurasian. And if his first appearance at the head of state depended on whether he could stop the collapse of Russia and prevent a repeat of the fate of the USSR, then the success of integration of the post-Soviet space will logically become a touchstone. If he copes with this, he will go down in the history of Russia as a great ruler.

People remember only great things. And only power and strength provide the ruler with fame, freedom, security, and respect for everyone, even enemies.
50 comments
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  1. Sergh
    +4
    3 November 2011 11: 52
    Very interesting article! There is something to think about, by the way, for all of the above. Purely looking back at the current situation and without ambition, no offense.

    We must think and weigh, looking to the future, if you want to live in peace and calmness.
    1. +5
      3 November 2011 12: 22
      And there is also a good song by Timur Shaov "Transit train through Ukraine" who has not heard, be sure to listen

      http://www.audiopoisk.com/track/timur-6aov/mp3/6anson-tranzitnii-poezd-4erez-ukr

      ainu /
      1. +9
        3 November 2011 17: 47
        Comrade Major, let me turn to Comrade General!) Vadivak, the song is super, I haven’t laughed like that for a long time)))
        With regards to Ukraine. Brothers, come to your senses! The cheapest prostitutes in Europe are considered Ukrainian. I don’t remember the name of the local activist who came out with a proposal to legalize prostitution. Ukrainian youth protests about this (roam with posters, throw off songs and protest videos)
        Ukraine has turned into a bargaining chip, in political intrigues.
        I think that they themselves should deal with the majority with the minority there (the exact word). What for they got to Europe? I’ll take a walk, but they won’t get married anyway. And we don’t have ours.
        And Brzezik-schiz-k, is recognized as an honored guest of the city of Lviv. And humanity is in dire need of such figures to be shot through.
        1. +2
          3 November 2011 21: 25
          Thanks for the answer, I myself really liked the funny, sad and smart song
  2. LESHA pancake
    +2
    3 November 2011 12: 02
    THE WEST WILL DO EVERYTHING TO CUSTOMIZE UKRAINE AGAINST RUSSIA THIS IS NOT ALLOWED.
    1. His
      +2
      3 November 2011 12: 07
      Everything in the world gravitates towards energy resources. Russia is a global resource. Therefore, it can be the core of unification. This is a natural process.
      1. Russian Man
        -20
        3 November 2011 12: 15
        who needs us, while we graze in all the rear indicators.
        nobody needs our show-offs and God's chosen people, for this is obvious.
        because we don’t have friends in the world, nobody wants to have family relations with us. For the ass is a goal, and Vyalyachie climbs out of it.
        1. Tjumenec72
          +6
          3 November 2011 14: 51
          Well, hide in your Pindo corner and sit there, don’t mess people up with life)
        2. vadimus
          +2
          4 November 2011 00: 12
          it can be your ass, but your head is empty for sure
  3. jamert
    +3
    3 November 2011 12: 04
    Ukraine today consists of two identities, two peoples. The Zapadensky core recognizes itself as part of Europe. The eastern and southern regions refer to Russian-Eurasian civilization.


    It is immediately clear that the author has never been to Ukraine. Because our ethnic and linguistic differences are not as global as they try to portray in Russia. Social and economic problems are much stronger and they determine the mood of people in Lviv, Odessa and Lugansk.
    1. Russian Man
      -20
      3 November 2011 12: 11
      well, don’t disappoint the local nationally concerned conspiracy theorists and other juvenile fuckers who replace their vacuums of understanding / knowledge of the issue with primitive school-lucky pasriotism. the resource is saturated with such.
      1. +3
        3 November 2011 12: 40
        You won’t believe it, but it was nice to meet you here, let us have enough fun. Friends, get ready, the show begins.
        1. +4
          3 November 2011 13: 30
          Well, where are you "Russian people" just been "online" and went somewhere, we all sat down more comfortably in the hope that now it would be fun, and you dumped, you are doing wrong with the respectable audience.
          1. Russian Man
            -14
            3 November 2011 16: 41
            you see what kind of typical biomass you are, that you cannot identify yourself except in the plural. lol
            and also, I apologize for not meeting your expectations and you spent your next boring, dull, uninteresting day even for your unfortunate relatives.
            follow my online next my young fanboy lol
            1. +3
              3 November 2011 17: 32
              Funny wink let's go on (applause)
            2. Alexey Prikazchikov
              +3
              4 November 2011 12: 09
              You are a non-Russian animal animal, that's all I even feel sorry for you moral and you do not understand this.
    2. Sergh
      +2
      3 November 2011 12: 12
      So jamert, speak the truth! The author may generalize, but the essence of the matter is different, looking at world state disasters, this is what the West is seeking. Discord, confusion, a rebound back into the abyss. This is also visible with the naked eye.
  4. Noni4
    -4
    3 November 2011 12: 41
    There are no two Ukraine. It is one single. And do not try to make 2 of Ukraine.
    1. lightforcer
      0
      3 November 2011 13: 16
      Huntington read.
      1. Noni4
        +1
        3 November 2011 13: 41
        Why should I read someone? I live here and see everything with my own eyes. Thank God there is still a head on my shoulders so that everyone understands perfectly well that this is an artificially created problem.
        1. lightforcer
          0
          3 November 2011 14: 07
          But you still read.
          1. Noni4
            0
            3 November 2011 15: 42
            Thank you. Can you tell us briefly what is written there?
            1. lightforcer
              0
              3 November 2011 15: 47
              About civilizations based on cultural and linguistic affinity.
    2. jamert
      0
      3 November 2011 18: 29
      Due to my profession, I have to visit Lviv, Rivne, Odessa, Lugansk and Simferopol. And everywhere there are some problems.
      1. Clamp the business.
      2. People are taken from the appropriate pension benefits.
      3. I do not plant real criminals, but they initiate a bunch of criminal cases on far-fetched pretexts.
      4. Majors ride without recognizing either traffic rules or pedestrians.
      5. Roads of terrifying quality.
      6. Unemployment, etc.

      And only on the 20-25th place do questions of language, NATO, the EU, the Customs Union, etc.
      1. Graaf
        +1
        3 November 2011 21: 55
        I absolutely agree with you! In Ukraine, things are exactly like this, the question of the Russian language (no matter how it is voiced and savored in Russia) is not as acute as the problem of finance, business jamming, etc. I don’t care what will happen to NATO, I don’t care what will happen to The Eurasian Union of your Prime Minister. I am Russian! I live in my country. And with whom or not to associate with me, I will decide for myself, without the instructions of any politicians there. I work quite often in Russia, and in Belarus (that’s how I write, not in Belarus), and in the Baltic states. Everywhere there is one problem - how to make money.
        He deliberately clicked on the site where the source of the article is - and who is the author? And when A. Dugin saw - everything fell into place. For a long time I have been familiar with the work of this so-called political scientist, politician, etc. I can only say one thing when a person close to power writes ....

        Therefore, no idea can be formulated. And, most likely, will fail. Therefore, it is possible to predict the collapse of this country into two zones - the western and southeast. In this case, the southeastern zone is naturally integrated into the Eurasian Union and the problem is solved.
        Are there any prerequisites for such a turn of events? Of course, there is, and in recent years, Ukraine has repeatedly stood on the verge of civil conflict, especially after the Orange Revolution.

        Does Russia have the levers to facilitate such a turn of affairs? There is, and if necessary they can be created additionally. If we treat Eurasian integration with full responsibility, then such a scenario cannot be excluded.


        What do you think? Openly write, call, tell what and how will he do to ruin my country, my Ukraine? Do you think riding what? My opinion is the height of arrogance in which they beat the face! Let him write this about Russia? I would like to see how quickly he gets into the melon. I would only be glad for him. With such A. Dugins I have no way. I believe that authors like Dugin do more harm than good. And therefore, as they say in our village - IT will show. And who knows, will Russia itself fall apart tomorrow?
      2. serge
        +1
        4 November 2011 11: 26
        We
        1.Business also clamp down, but taxes are lower
        2. With pensions a little better
        3. Began to plant those who need. 90's gangs are in the past
        But in Ukraine they still exist
        4. They began to let pedestrians pass at crossings.
        5. Build roads.
        6. There is unemployment, but the devastation is gone.
        Young guys in Moscow no longer want to work ea 20000 rubles
        (go nuts!) They sit out of work, but don’t want to go for $ 650.
        7.Our drawback is Caucasian (but kind of
        they started to plant them slowly)
        8.People, having received a piece of bread and butter, began and
        Ukraine, army, educational system
        etc. be interested
  5. +2
    3 November 2011 12: 45
    Recently in the morning I am sitting quietly for breakfast, and here on NTV infa this is: The largest nuclear waste storage facility in Europe will open in Serbia ... I have already stopped having breakfast. Everything is clear about the Eurasian Union and the upcoming difficulties, but how can you do this with your people for the sake of some illusory desire to populate your population in a house from which "freedom bombs" have recently been flying at you and the former new settlers of this house have already reached the exit. Yes, Europe, too, was surprised by the fact that for how many centuries it has not changed its habits - "the contents of a chamber pot must certainly be poured onto the pavement" this is how you need to "love" your country to make it a European pavement. I wonder what kind of sacrifices are the glorious representatives of western Ukraine ready to make for a pass to the European house? Tolyany and others like him, just don't think that I'm agitating you for something else, go-go there they are waiting for you ...
  6. +4
    3 November 2011 13: 15
    Well, somehow soft and warm mixed.
    An attempt to make Ukraine a necessary link in the Eurasian Union, nothing more.
    Moreover, the aspect of the NEED to attract Ukraine through its division or integration under pressure was not impressed.
    In my opinion, pindos-like methods of "such" integration "have already filled everyone with soreness.
    There are 3 options (IMHO).

    1. Ukraine joins the union on favorable (what for, are they disadvantageous, or forceful?) Conditions, because there is something to offer in addition to the transit territory. Which, let's say, have learned to get around.
    2. Ukraine lives on its own, even if this is the choice of the government, it must also be respected, since the government is elected (well, or "elected") by the people. There are a lot of examples of what the policy of isolation can lead to.
    3. Joining the European Union ... Well, there are also a lot of options, why is it needed there and what can be with it.

    Everywhere there are pros and cons. Somewhere more, somewhere less. In any case, it is not for us to decide.
  7. Noni4
    0
    3 November 2011 13: 44
    lightforcer,
    But did he even visit western and eastern Ukraine? Or did he shit himself from across the sea like many scribes who had never been there in life.
  8. Ion coaelung
    +4
    3 November 2011 14: 10
    I had to visit different cities of Ukraine. Very different west from east. For example, I’ll take two cities Lviv and Donetsk: no one in Lviv wants to speak Russian, in Donetsk, on the contrary, in the first the majority is in the EU, the United States and so on, in the second they want unity with Russia, in the first people are closed, inaccessible, conservative, gloomy, in the second, open, funny, optimistic despite all the problems. I won’t talk about Crimea at all! So if a split occurs, eastern Ukraine will pull up to Russia, but there is a lot of coal, iron and free fields with a good climate for agriculture! But of course it’s better to connect than to separate!
    1. Graaf
      0
      3 November 2011 22: 06
      ... dear! Do not tell me - today I flew from a business trip to Lviv. I am Russian, but I calmly speak both Russian and Ukrainian. There is no problem for me to use the language spoken by the indigenous people. And about Russian - last night in Lviv, in Zhidovskaya Kneipp (if anyone does not know - a Jewish restaurant where there are no prices on the menu and the waiter calls the price for dinner from the bulldozer - and you bargain with it and bring down the price.) Russians calmly spoke in Russian and the waiter also answered them! ALL! Paragraph A 3 weeks ago in Lugansk - they calmly answered me in pure Ukrainian, and even in a restaurant in the very center. What are such language problems?
      But there will be no split in Ukraine! I bet. I know the people of Ukraine too well, you know us too poorly! Do not watch the zombie box with zombie news on Ros.TV. This is all a lie that is presented as a real state of affairs.
      1. Andrey2302
        0
        3 November 2011 23: 13
        So are you Russian or who? Decide, otherwise it’s not clear - I’m Russian. - Too well I know the people of Ukraine, too poorly you know us.
      2. Don
        0
        4 November 2011 19: 36
        So I live in Donetsk, GRAAF, and believe me, it’s not just the language that can divide us, but economics and politics. In the east, they won’t drag the West for themselves forever. When ONE region begins to dictate its conditions to others, while this region lives on subsidies throughout countries, to put it mildly,I do not like.With such an area, living in one state is not a hunt.
      3. Ion coaelung
        0
        7 November 2011 16: 14
        Graaf, I in your Lviv speaking Russian, basically received the answer in Ukrainian. Even in Latvia there is already no such thing !!! And they don’t give a damn whether you understand the rumor or not. And I'm generally talking about the majority, about the part of the population that determines the nature and behavior of the bulk in those cities. Off-topic your answer, although please that in Russian write!
    2. ballian
      -1
      4 November 2011 02: 04
      you're lying all anonymous.
  9. +4
    3 November 2011 15: 13
    In any case, the western part of Ukraine will act as a brake on any unification processes. the population there has become so stagnant in its "Europeism" that it will always be an anti-Russian fifth column. When the unification takes place, there will be a major hotbed of tension. When Stalin solved this problem, all the Bandera members huddled in the corners, though not completely. In any case, the issue of Western Ukraine will remain an abscess on the body of the common state for a long time.
  10. zavesa01
    +1
    3 November 2011 15: 26
    Yes, the Ukrainians themselves cannot figure it out. And all the same, western Ukraine is almost Poland, and the Poles have always been "friends" with the Russians. Although if I am for something that would be gay Slavs. All the same, we have a lot in common and even though there are disagreements (and where they are not) it is easier for us to understand each other. The problem is that in such dark waters, the west will cause confusion by all available means. There are a lot of skinners willing to sell or exchange everything for a hamburger. On the other hand, for our fifth column there is also something to play on, for example, nationalism (in its best features) has never lost (people like it).
  11. kesa1111
    +2
    3 November 2011 15: 30
    In order for ALL Ukraine to want to Russia, it is necessary to change life for the better. And change it so that Poles, French, Germans stand in line for Russian citizenship ... It turns out that this filthy power needs to be changed.
  12. zavesa01
    +4
    3 November 2011 16: 04
    What for? You need to drop imperial ways and just build your house. And about the government, to be honest, sometimes I feel sorry for Putin and Medvedev to pour dirt on them unmeasured, but only one thing is not good for everything. The country of absurdity has laws - they are not implemented. They simplify schemes - they begin to steal, complicate - they divert capital. Any law can be done in a bunch of ways. There are a lot of options on each corner how to smooth out the situation in the world. GENTLE EXPRESS YOUR OFFERS HOW TO MAKE THE LAW IN RUSSIA WORK. Then take up the world. Only without any shot, on the count, etc.
    1. prunx
      0
      3 November 2011 16: 32
      It’s great that you’ve gone round and round about imperial ambitions. Firstly, it’s not up to them to decide what we should refuse, and what not! Secondly, whose cows would moo. Thirdly, it’s time to deal with problems with excess weight)))
    2. kesa1111
      +1
      3 November 2011 23: 52
      1) The prime minister and the president should start with themselves: to return to the treasury everything that was stolen. 2) To clear thieves from some kind of power structure or create a new one (if things are really bad). Then clean the entire state apparatus, and with its help establish the dictatorship of the LAW. While Vovan deliberately develops corruption and theft, that is, it is ruining the state.
      1. prunx
        -4
        5 November 2011 00: 48
        1. Hollow. 2. "some kind of power structure" that is, you do not smoke where, what and how, but you say. 3. "Next, cleanse the entire state apparatus, and with its help establish the dictatorship of the LAW" - to the wall in a row all? 4. "While the Vovan deliberately develops corruption and theft, that is, he destroys the state." - at least one fact of theft or corruption on the part of Putin in the studio.
        1. kesa1122
          +1
          5 November 2011 05: 07
          http://news.rambler.ru/11404878/
          http://www.nr2.ru/economy/351814.html
          http://www.nr2.ru/incidents/316725.html
          In any search engine - Putin’s crime, or he himself didn’t guess, a lover of elegant literature?
          As for the senka of all in a row - what they deserve to receive, and how much will be typed a second time. Well and most importantly, in order for something to happen, it’s enough not to interfere, in the realities of the Russian Federation, it will happen. All power structures are roofs, i.e. bandits. This is known to ALL. If you don’t fight, it means at least an accomplice.
  13. Boss
    +4
    3 November 2011 17: 49
    There are many contradictions between the east and the west of Ukraine, and they are artificially heated by all kinds of shuttle trucks, pharyons and other benders; on the other hand, the eastern Russophiles are also slowly getting out of the state of indifference and are activating their pro-Russian line.
    BUT...
    Even supporters of integration with Russia, including Russians by nationality, have already recognized themselves as citizens of an independent state. So the Putin-Medvedev approach to resolving issues of Ukraine’s integration from the standpoint of forceful and other pressure from Big Brother will not give any result. It is time to understand this and learn to respect our neighbors.
    1. Graaf
      0
      3 November 2011 22: 08
      I AGREE 100%.
      1. 0
        3 November 2011 22: 16
        As for respect - and they would do well to learn. And what, according to your Bos-s, will be the most effective approach?
  14. legion 13
    0
    3 November 2011 17: 52
    just do not tear off a piece from your citizens .... as is the case with Chechnya!
  15. zavesa01
    -5
    3 November 2011 18: 13
    I see big ambitions. Dear you are interested in the situation in the country, or do you just shout from the ceiling cheers forward? At the moment, almost nothing is being produced in the country. In decline, there are not enough highly skilled specialists, the bureaucracy is enormous, rampant bureaucracy and corruption, the crisis in the education system, catastrophic problems with demography. For you, it’s probably a revelation that in Russia there are 90 million indigenous people, the rest is an influx from the Central Asian republics. Look what happens in the Far East in 40-50 years, it will be the territory of China simply because the population will consist of Chinese. Residents of the Kuril Islands NOW are ready to give their islands to Japan because Japan is closer to them and cares about them more. A strong army and navy is excellent, but how much time is needed to build them, what economic costs it costs. Now is not the time when they are fighting with bows and spears. Maybe you think that they will let you calmly build up military potential? It is also unlikely. Outline an exemplary scenario of action? Because the NATO bloc’s economy is more powerful than ours; for starters, they form a powerful fifth column. They will create a strong opposition, against the backdrop of this, ethnic hatred will be inflated with all the benefits, etc. Their trading campaigns will receive subsidies when trading with Russia at low prices so that we can not establish our production. Sooner or later or later, chaos will begin in the country, after which Russia will be declared an unstable region and NATO troops will come here as peacekeepers. And all this the UN will applaud because EVERYONE will get their piece except us. This tactic works for the United States with ALL countries that fall within the scope of their interests. And now contrast the Armed Forces of Russia and the Armed Forces of the NATO bloc countries. I don’t know about you, but for me everything is sour and I don’t need to say that I am a pessimist, these are realities and they are very harsh.
    1. +2
      3 November 2011 18: 56
      Well, then hang yourself, anyway, you won't be tormented so at least. But in fact there is a way out if each of us understands that it is time to drive the current government with our will. And without hanging up, shooting and on a stake will not work, because a class of dependents, sellers of resources, and simply burners who live and live on devastation and betrayal, and they will stand for their lifestyle to the end, has formed. Here is to provide them with this end quickly, and adopt the strategy "Without Russia, there will be no peace" - that is, if someone climbs, we will turn this planet into a lifeless stone.
    2. serge
      0
      4 November 2011 11: 38
      "This tactic" worked for the Poles, and for Napoleon and Hitler.
      At first, and they were not weakly armed.
      But then what happened. From the fifth column and no trace remained.
      False Dmitry fired from a cannon to the west.
      In wartime, it was completely destroyed (hello modern
      Abramovich), and nationally thinking people came to power.
      Whatever creatures are in the country's leadership, the war destroys them.
      In general, Russia is not Libya in terms of population. And so far there are rockets.
      And there will be coffins for the "peacekeepers".
    3. Don
      0
      4 November 2011 19: 41
      Blah, blah, blah. As usual, everything from the ceiling, just to say something, seem smart. Have you ever been at one factory in zavesa01? So I’ve been to your many working. Although I understand that it’s hard for you to believe, it will be even more difficult to believe that the products of your metallurgical plants (for example) are used in Germany, France, the UK, as well as the products of Ukrainian metallurgical plants, by the way.
  16. zavesa01
    0
    3 November 2011 19: 06
    I strongly condemn suicidal acts smile . The problem is they will not let you do this. Announce the enemy of mankind and all things. If everything was so simple, I would be the first in line for a leather jacket and a Mauser. Before my eyes, the army was destroyed. I feel sorry for tears, but what's the point, paw to ear: there is so sure.
  17. +4
    3 November 2011 19: 11
    And I am not afraid of the title of "enemy of Pendo humanity") Let them consider barbarians, murderers, and beasts, let them scare us children at night, but do not climb. The only task is to raise industry, agriculture and education ...
  18. zavesa01
    0
    3 November 2011 19: 38
    I’m talking about what the country needs to raise; everything else will follow because the army is an instrument of the state, a necessary but nevertheless an instrument. Although A. Hitler at one time raised the economy with the help of the army belay
    1. 0
      3 November 2011 20: 02
      It’s just that in your first post there was only a description of how everything is bad, almost hopeless. But the discussion of how to fix everything is much better)) in the end, after 18 years the situation was worse, and then they got it right .... it’s a shame that the price will have to be paid again, and no matter how big ...
  19. zavesa01
    -1
    3 November 2011 20: 08
    Unfortunately, RUSSIA ALWAYS paid and, as a rule, with the blood of its people throughout its history. And fortunately ALWAYS revived and became stronger, but the price was always higher. This is probably another reason why they are afraid of us, probably because only we can pay on such bills.
  20. Letekha
    +6
    3 November 2011 20: 13
    I want to tell all the Russophobes, I lived for 3 years in western Ukraine, in its very heart, when I studied at the institute, and this was just during the Orange Revolution and after! I myself am from Crimea, I love and respect Russia very much, and I am a fierce supporter of the complete unification of Ukraine with Russia! But I would like to say that according to my personal observations, there are many people in the west of Ukraine who, under certain conditions, would vote for reunification with Russia! The main thing I would like to say to the brothers from Russia that you cease to consider everyone in Ukraine as cattle, of course there are enough of them, but you can’t imagine how insulting it is when I arrive from Crimea to MOSCOW, and the Cops at the STATION TESTING MY PASSPORT, I SEE THAT HE IS UKRAINIAN NAME. WHAT ARE WE IN CRIMEA CRESTED? In Crimea, in all schools they learn the Russian language, speak Russian, the Ukrainian language is found in 1 out of 100000, etc.!
    1. ytqnhfk
      +1
      3 November 2011 20: 27
      Letekha, you just fall under the article as well as Armenians like Caucasians but smart people and most importantly talented! So they consider you Khokhlov, but in reality you are Russian and not every Russian knows it now! You forgive our cop redneck since they consider many peripheral people to be the limit! And they themselves come from there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      1. slan
        0
        3 November 2011 20: 47
        What kind of complexes? .. It seems that "crest" is not an offensive nickname even once, it sounds good-naturedly rather. How to speak in simple speech? You can break your tongue about a "Ukrainian". Well, then, do not see the nationalist subtext in everything. Why is it shameful for the same Ukrainian policeman (in life I would not utter such a phrase)))) to call a Tatar from Russia a Russian, or a "Russian" as they are taught in ukroshkols, and a Jew from Sweden is a Swede? Well, you shouldn't blame the cops for being in Ukraine.
  21. zavesa01
    +1
    3 November 2011 20: 26
    Quote: Letech
    WHAT ARE WE IN CRIMEA CRESTED?

    There was a joke crawling in the area of ​​about. Unimak (USA) 4 am not a soul for 12 miles and suddenly a voice in the VHF: "Slav, slav, is there who?" It turned out that our guy is a chief on a contractual fisherman. Says: "For two months now and there is no one to talk to." In Seattle, the same story was met by a guy 8 years ago, a Bulgarian himself studied in Moscow. Duck his first words were: "Hello brothers Slavs" So you say I'm a Slav, let their heads wrinkle who they are
    1. ballian
      -3
      4 November 2011 02: 35
      14.10.11
      survey data of the Razumkov Center
      Making a choice (or - or) between joining the EU and joining the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, in Ukraine as a whole, the relative majority of Ukrainians (43%) support joining the EU, while for joining the Customs Union with Russia and 30% of respondents are Belarus.

      by region,%

      For joining the EU
      77 WEST
      53 CENTER
      23 SOUTH
      24 EAST

      For joining the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan
      6 WEST
      21 CENTER
      50 SOUTH
      45 EAST

      Non-accession to either the EU or the Customs Union
      7 WEST
      10 CENTER
      14 SOUTH
      8 EAST

      Do not know
      10 WEST
      16 CENTER
      12 SOUTH
      22 EAST

      Moreover, in all regions there is a clear tendency - the younger the respondents, the more among them are those who join the EU and less in the union of Russia and Belarus.
      As you can see, with such a formulation of the question in the south-east of Ukraine, those who wish to close unification with Russia to the detriment of relations with the EU hardly even get half.
      1. Don
        +1
        4 November 2011 19: 46
        Once again, the Razumkov center is a pro-Western analytical center. The president is Gritsenko, an ardent nationalist raised by Washington.