"The main highlight of the PL-14 is its ergonomics and balance"

95
"The main highlight of the PL-14 is its ergonomics and balance"


Leading design engineer of the Kalashnikov concern Dmitry Lebedev about the new gun

The author of the new pistol PL-14 Dmitry Lebedev in an interview with the Russian Planet told about stories creation and about characteristics weapons, the prototype of which was first presented at the Army-2015 forum. Potential customers of the PL-14 can be both power structures (army, special forces), and athletes.

Dmitry Lebedev is a student of the legendary designer of sports weapons Efim Leontyevich Khaidurov and for many years engaged in the creation of experimental pistols. The development of the PL-14 model was launched in 2014, with the active participation of the multiple Russian champion in practical shooting Andrei Kirisenko.

The PL-14 is based on: optimal ergonomics and balance, safety in handling, high reliability with any 9х19 cartridges, full “two-sidedness”, a considerable resource (at least 10 000 shots when using reinforced 7HXXUMUM armor-piercing cartridges; should be significantly more).

At the moment (summer 2015 of the year) PL-14 is at the stage of testing the prototype. It will be ready for serial production no earlier than 2016 of the year, and during this time the pistol will necessarily undergo changes as compared with the sample demonstrated at the Army-2015 forum.

It is too early to talk about the cost of serial versions, but, according to Dmitry Lebedev, the issue of product competitiveness in terms of price - quality is given sufficient attention.

- What is the need to create a PL-14? Is the "old man" "Makarov" so much outdated?

- The Makarov pistol was created more than sixty years ago. During this period, virtually any equipment becomes obsolete. The question of replacing the PM did not arise yesterday, already in the 80-s of the last century, the overwhelming majority of countries in the world re-equipped their armies and police with more powerful and modern pistols than the PM. And in our country at that time, work was intensified in this direction. As a result, fairly well-known samples have emerged today: CP-1, PJ, GSH-18, and many other, lesser-known systems to the general public.

At that time, I was already working in the Khaidurov design and research group, and although our main activity was sports weapons, we also fought in the sphere of interest, since we worked closely with representatives of many special units who turned to us for technical and methodological assistance. At the same time, there was an opportunity not only to study a large number of foreign-made weapons, but also to discuss with specialists with combat experience the features of structures and the use of weapons. Over time, the ties strengthened and expanded, and today we are in constant interaction with the people for whom we work: these are the Alpha and Vympel officers, the security services of the president, other law enforcement agencies and divisions, the arrows-athletes. Now in the Kalashnikov Concern, we have begun to implement the existing experience and knowledge.


PL-14 (Lebedev's gun) PL-14 (Lebedev's gun). Photo courtesy of the Kalashnikov Concern press service

- Will the PL-14 be as reliable in the harsh Russian conditions as the same PM?

- The path from the prototype to a well-functioning serial machine is not close and difficult. The same PM did not immediately acquire its glorious reliability. So far, taking into account the testing of our gun, there is every reason to hope that we will bring the car to the required level of reliability.

- How does Lebedev's gun compare favorably with other systems, such as the Yarygin pistol or the Swift? And what is the advantage of the PL-14 compared with Western counterparts?

- The main highlight of the submarine is its ergonomics and balance. Today, according to the results of the testing, we see that our main idea was a success. The machine fits well in the hand, is stable when aiming, has less withdrawal during recoil and allows you to transfer fire to other targets faster.

Next - controls. We try to make them as clear and familiar as possible, but taking into account the shortcomings of other well-known systems (for example, the shop latch button on many good handguns is not protected from being accidentally pressed, as well as the slide latch and the fuse). Of particular note is the informative indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the chamber.

Such a device is in many systems, but we have brought its readability to the maximum possible: whether a weapon is loaded, you can determine it by touch with one hand, even when wearing a glove, without removing it from the holster. Disassembling the maintenance pistol is simple and easy.

Mechanical "stuffing" does not carry inventions - we try to use proven, reliable and technological design solutions, but pay much attention to their harmonious combination. Now the main task is to bring the design to the level of the best world samples according to these criteria.

- And what exactly is the feature of the pistol grip? Can you tell us more about the ergonomic characteristics of the PL-14?

- The applied principles of ergonomics and balance of weapons were elaborated by Efim Leontyevich Khaidurov, who was not only a talented gunsmith designer, but also a highly qualified shooter, and an outstanding trainer-methodologist. We tried to implement this knowledge and ideas about the biomechanics and psychology of the shooter, about the production of an accurate shot in our car. Simply put, the gun must be a continuation of the hands of the shooter, both physically and psychologically.

In addition, in the basic configuration, the handle has a small thickness (28 mm) and small coverage, which makes the gun convenient for the shooter with a small hand, and with the help of interchangeable linings, the handle is adapted for users with larger hands: today it is “a good tone rule "For the gun, as well as bilateral controls, allowing unrestricted work with both right and left hands.

- It was stated that the PL-14 is designed for military, security personnel and athletes. The conclusion is that the gun will be a kind of universal model. Is that so or not? For whom is the PL-14 primarily intended?

- Yes, we are working on the design as a universal platform. The main option is designed for users of “basic” qualifications - these are officers of the army and police for whom the pistol is not the main weapon and therefore there is no need to spend a lot of time on their training in shooting. In this embodiment, the gun has a longer and tighter descent than usual (4 kg force, 7 stroke mm).


Shooting a pistol Lebedev "PL-14". Photo courtesy of the Kalashnikov Concern press service

Such characteristics of the descent will save the user with a small rifle skill from an accidental shot. At the same time, testing has shown that the shooters of such qualifications confidently conduct accurate shooting at a pace that is accessible to their skills.

Another option is a gun for people who often use it and spend a lot of time in the shooting range. For them, a shorter and easier descent is provided (kg force 1,5, mm stroke 5). Such a descent allows high-speed shooting. Finally, there is a trigger mechanism with adjustable characteristics that satisfy the requirements for an open-class sport pistol.

In addition, there are options with different lengths of the barrel and handles. Standard, with 112 – 127 mm trunks and handles for 15 – 16-local stores; long, with 152 trunks mm; compact with 80 – 90 mm trunks and handles for 12-local stores.

There are also various versions of the framework: impact-resistant plastic for the basic models, as well as light alloy and steel for special versions. Various equipment includes tactical lights, laser designators, muzzle devices (up to silencers) and various sights (up to collimator), universal and special holsters for wearing all this in the collection. In general, everything that can boast of good modern pistols.

- You mentioned that the descent force of the PL-14 is 4 kg. For comparison: in the Nagan revolver, which is considered the benchmark of a very difficult descent, this indicator is equal to 3,5 kg. Would not such a tight descent an obstacle to shooting in a real battle?

- The mentioned descent in 4 kg is tested by us as possible. Examples of the use of similar pistols with intentionally weighted descent to improve safety are numerous in world practice. In particular, in many US police departments on the "Glocks" put down with an effort 5 kg.

I repeat that testing of this descent by arrows of various qualifications (from basic to high) showed that they all quickly become accustomed to such descent. Nevertheless, for "advanced" users there are options for easy descent.


PL-14 (Lebedev's gun). Photo courtesy of the Kalashnikov Concern press service

- Is the PM-14 too large? Are the latest plastic materials used in the design of the gun?

- The mass of the gun without cartridges 800 grams. For weapons of this class is completely normal weight. The most popular modern guns classmates weigh about the same. Of course, the design provides for the maximum use of modern materials, including polymers. While in the prototype, these parts are made of aluminum alloy, but this is only because there is no point in making rather expensive molds.

- What can you say about the accuracy and rate of fire of the PL-14?

- Accuracy in relation to the gun - the parameter is crafty. There are examples when shooting a pistol from the “machine” shows high accuracy and accuracy, but when shooting from the hands does not provide the necessary accuracy. The accuracy of our pistol is quite ordinary, but thanks to the ergonomics and balance solutions already described above, it shows good results in accuracy and speed of repeated shots.

- How many PL-14 to be tested, and when can we approximately expect the start of mass production?

- We are preparing a gun to the standard test procedure without discounts and exemptions. These tests will be carried out in accordance with the program approved by the customer, both in content and in terms. Specific dates I have no right to make public. I can only say that the deadlines for us are very tight.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

95 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +5
    22 August 2015 05: 45
    How many of these pistols have already been provided and praised, it makes no sense to list everything.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      22 August 2015 11: 20
      The mentioned descent of 4 kg is tested by us as possible. Examples of the use of similar pistols with a deliberately weighted trigger to increase safety are numerous in world practice. In particular, in many US police departments, the Gloks are put down with a force of 5 kg.

      In the USA this is done for safety (the standard Glock effort on the descent is 2,5 kg, PM-1,5 kg), but what is the reason for this in the PL-14?
      1. 0
        22 August 2015 20: 38
        The length of the descent is also important. It greatly affects the accuracy of shooting.

        In sports, in short, the army is longer. And the army is related to security. So that the descent length does not affect the accuracy of shooting, the gun must be held with both hands.
  2. +8
    22 August 2015 06: 16
    We have a standard, TT and PM. BUT this is yesterday. But today you need something else. Here I am not at all in the subject, but I like Glock-17. Well, I liked this machine, well, I'm sorry.
    1. avt
      0
      22 August 2015 08: 20
      Quote: Free Wind
      We have a standard, TT and PM

      TT in life can not be a standard, since he himself is ersatz Browning adapted for the cartridge from Mauser and the capabilities of the USSR arms industry of those times.
      Quote: Free Wind
      but i like glock 17

      And I’m GSh-18, but in our case I would take OTs-27 Stechkina, or Soviet PM from the warehouse, of course, as the second. PM for melee is laughing
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      4 kg for the "descent"? Completely crazy. A pistol is often the "last line" of defense of a wounded, tired and weakened shooter, in such a state you lift the pistol with difficulty, but here you have 4 kg for the descent ...

      request So the athletes began to sculpt from the time of the notorious "Swift", and even with an eye on "Walter". But something tells me that all this is a storm in a glass of water. They cling to the "Kalashnikov" for the pistol budget, frankly crap with the crushed by them Ich.
      1. +4
        22 August 2015 17: 55
        I like your comments!
        TT in life can not be a standard, since he himself is ersatz Browning adapted for the cartridge from Mauser and the capabilities of the USSR arms industry of those times.
        Yes there are such in the world ...! Disassemble the PYa and TT. In PYa, the traces of the cutter seem to have been "performed" in the 30s, and not in the early 2000s.

        So the athletes began to sculpt from the time of the notorious "Swift"

        Remember the recent (relatively) articles about "Swift" here? And where is he? If you look at both the PYa and the GSh (still) they are trying to write that "this is a car." But users already know everything and have written more than once.
        No komenty really like! Professionally.
        But he is right about the Glock! 7N21 for the police is too much (well, maybe just in case in the alarming "BC") and the PSO PRS is just right.
        1. 0
          22 August 2015 18: 35
          This is me about the fact that as if the submarine did not suffer the fate of "Swift".
        2. avt
          0
          22 August 2015 18: 44
          Quote: Hell Angel
          Remember the recent (relatively) articles about "Swift" here?

          Aha
          Quote: Hell Angel
          And where is he?

          According to Rogozin's behest, the responsible comrades "are sleeping with him. As a result of this" love "a new" super sample "appeared, which did not come close to the tests, and in independent hands it is not a fact that they will pass. this hype causing ecstasy from the photo of the PL from drooling to orgasm, on the Kalashnikov, they are specially posted to master the budget line, and the result can really be the continuation of the release of the PY from which, to put it mildly, users are not happy and the admission of competitors - they say the wunderwaffe has already I have to be patient before passing the tests. I'm afraid in the end they will take PM from the warehouses even to replace the PY and sob about TT.
          1. 0
            22 August 2015 18: 51
            Maybe for yourself? Ii do not care what speed the "swift" shows relative to the "siskin". (well, you get the idea)
          2. +1
            22 August 2015 18: 57
            It's my wife's birthday. Therefore, the "clave" is not very good. As soon as it "passes" I will take off a photo of the AK - 74M trigger, after 1000 shots. Do not believe it!
            1. +1
              22 August 2015 20: 42
              Hell's Angel

              Has the trigger really broken? For 1000 shots, very few.
              1. 0
                25 August 2015 17: 31
                Right! I was surprised myself. How can I throw it off. (the wife’s day passed, now the wire is lost)
                1. -1
                  29 August 2015 06: 09
                  Here's another ... You can see better here.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2015 21: 31
                    I can only say one thing - heat treatment marriage!
              2. -1
                29 August 2015 06: 01
                As promised. AK 74M submachine gun. I shot about 1000 shots. This is about the quality of modern products with us. Therefore, that the submarine is that the pi
                1. +1
                  31 August 2015 15: 59
                  Quote: Hell Angel
                  AK 74M submachine gun. I shot about 1000 shots.

                  Well, yes, and for some reason the trigger from the AK-74 ... "Angel", you decided to show how the AK is riveted? And tell me what else you are allowed to do in your "training part". Only now you can immediately see that they didn't actually hold weapons in their hands ...
                  For example, the same thing, but in better quality:

                  And here is the new trigger:

                  And this is the USM AK-74M, now you can compare.


                  1. +1
                    2 September 2015 16: 41
                    Quote: Verum
                    Well, yes, for some reason, the trigger is from the AK-74 ..

                    Yes, no, the trigger from the Saiga MK, it really looks like the early 74th but is slightly different. The funny thing about the two photos in the frame, as if by accident, did not hit the most "pale" place of the soy trigger - the protrusion under the self-timer, which is absent on the soy trigger. And the work hardening itself is very characteristic of the MK saiga.
                    1. +2
                      8 September 2015 08: 34
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      Yes, and hardening itself is very characteristic of saigas MK.

                      Greetings! He did not specifically show the protrusion, and the Saiga MK is an almost complete clone of the AK-74 of the first versions with a cut trigger. And the comrade "angel" did not even appear on the trigger from the MMG AK-103, where the guide is not closed by the self-timer lever, on which the trigger is riveted. This comrade did not even vyaknul that it was a bare AK-103 trigger without a self-timer, when he himself claims that he had only AK-103 left in his unit ...

                      The star of the 80th level!
      2. +1
        24 October 2015 10: 36
        Sly, Marshal (type) ?! bully And what is TT a Browning ersatz about? Do you even know their device? No? Then sit and sniff in two holes! Literate, youptile !!! am
        hi
    2. +1
      22 August 2015 15: 01
      A 34 Glock with a 5,5-inch barrel is even better and so light so
      generally acceptable. But the submarine is sure to be no worse.
    3. -2
      22 August 2015 15: 01
      A 34 Glock with a 5,5-inch barrel is even better and so light so
      generally acceptable. But the submarine is sure to be no worse.
    4. 0
      28 August 2015 18: 10
      Glock-17 lies well in the hand, it is convenient to aim, but it throws the barrel very well when shooting from it, it’s hard to get at a distance of more than 10 meters, from the cz-75 it is much more accurate and easier to hit the target. To shoot well from Glock, you need to shoot 50 shots at least once a month. No barrel can stand it, the investigator but you need to buy more than one per employee.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  3. 0
    22 August 2015 06: 23
    They can do it when they want. Although I did not expect another ..
  4. +7
    22 August 2015 07: 56
    4 kg for the "descent"? Completely crazy. A pistol is often the "last line" of defense of a wounded, tired and weakened shooter, in such a state you lift the pistol with difficulty, but here you have 4 kg for the descent ...
  5. +1
    22 August 2015 08: 15
    "The main highlight of the PL-14 is its ergonomics and balance"

    If this is the main highlight of the new pistol, then why reinvent the wheel - take the Parabellum. Better yet, buy a license for the Glock, or copy it. There is a rumor that the PL-14 is the notorious "Strizh", which has failed in the tests, in a "wrapper" from the Kalashnikov concern and with D. Lebedev's signature on the drawings. At least:
    The mechanical “filling” does not carry any inventions - we try to use proven, reliable and technological design solutions, but we pay a lot of attention to their harmonious combination
    And this is in the country that created two wonderful pistols in the 20th century: the MP, which is still used even in the FBI as a second weapon, and also the APS.
    1. +4
      22 August 2015 11: 08
      [/ quote] And this is in a country that created two wonderful pistols in the 20th century: MP, which even now is used by the FBI as a second weapon, and also APS. [/ quote]
      You probably meant the PM — Makarov’s pistol — agree a wonderful weapon, but not for the army. Although, in principle, the main task in modern warfare is to give the officer the opportunity to shoot himself in a hopeless situation, this gun can perform perfectly - but this is so, a bitter joke, PM, whatever one may say, is already outdated. As for the APS - this wonderful pistol - the weapon is not for everyone - it is not for nothing that it is popular with special forces. Yes, and not so many were released, especially in comparison with the same PM. And the APS handle is not suitable for every hand - for example, for me with a not-so-large, though wide, palm, shooting from the APS was not very convenient. Even with an attached butt - we still had an old model - wooden.
      I have the honor.
      1. +1
        22 August 2015 18: 11
        Quote: Alexander72
        Although, in principle, the main task in modern warfare is to give the officer the opportunity to shoot himself in a hopeless situation

        The army pistol does not have such a task. And the NORMAL officer has such a duty.
        An army pistol is a normal melee weapon. Those. they can and should fight at close range, if necessary. And do not shoot.
        You remember the film "State Border" less. The actors said a lot of different stupid things.
        1. avt
          +2
          22 August 2015 18: 47
          Quote: SEC
          An army pistol is a normal melee weapon. Those. they can and should fight at close range, if necessary. And do not shoot.

          good More precisely for hand-to-hand combat - the best technique is a shot from a pistol.
          Quote: SEC
          take Parabellum.
          What for? Him back in 1942. discontinued as obsolete

          No. How expensive to manufacture - too much milling, and assembly ...
          1. 0
            22 August 2015 19: 40
            Quote: avt
            too much milling, and assembly.

            Bad ballistics. Due to the short trunk, only 102 mm. If the design is strengthened and transferred to a new cartridge of Steam, then there will be no sense anyway. To Walter's level (as well as Glock 17, Beretta 92FS (M9), ПЯ) it cannot be reached.
            1. avt
              +2
              22 August 2015 20: 21
              Quote: SEC
              Bad ballistics. Due to the short trunk, only 102 mm.

              This is at the Luger !? With his line from the Gestapo to the artillery?
              Quote: SEC
              . If the design is strengthened and transferred to a new cartridge of Steam, then there will be no sense anyway.

              For a long time, replicas have been made under the new 9mm, even in a movie based on Bushkov about Piranha they filmed, well, with Mashkov.
              Quote: SEC
              To Walter's level

              it depends on which one - the old one, well, which in the war the "officer" is only cheaper and easier to manufacture, but the rest is the new "Walter" for the Bundes, as it is not compared.
              1. +1
                22 August 2015 20: 44
                Quote: avt
                This is at the Luger !? With his line from the Gestapo to the artillery?

                He has a darling. Of the entire line, only M.1904 and LP.08 have ballistics, somehow suitable for an army pistol. But it’s difficult to put them there because of the mass-dimensional characteristics. In other words, everything is not easy with Luger. PY is clearly better.
                And the old Walter ballistics, too, was unimportant. At the minimum level acceptable for pistols of this class. Only the new Walter on the new cartridge Para brought to the standard condition. The energy of his bullet increased by 8,5% and this was enough.
                In general, during the 2MV, the cartridge of the Steam was not very good. This is already in the 2nd half of the 20th century. it replaced the gunpowder and made it what it is today. Those. actually an almost standard cartridge for an army pistol.
                And during the war there were other standard cartridges. Because of another gunpowder.
                The time will come when the cartridge case of the PM will become the reference. Those. PMM cartridge will become cheap. Chemistry also does not stand still.
                1. 0
                  24 August 2015 11: 27
                  Quote: SEC
                  This is already in the 2nd half of the 20th century. it replaced the gunpowder and made it what it is today.

                  Do not bother telling what brand of gunpowder was first and which one it was replaced with?
                  1. 0
                    24 August 2015 12: 02
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    Do not bother telling what brand of gunpowder was first and which one it was replaced with?

                    I will not work.
                    1. 0
                      24 August 2015 13: 01
                      So someone would doubt - for this is to say about 9X19
                      Quote: SEC
                      In general, during the 2MV, the cartridge of the Steam was not very good. This is already in the 2nd half of the 20th century. it replaced the gunpowder and made it as it is today

                      Maybe only a complete zero in the subject.
                      1. 0
                        24 August 2015 13: 16
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Maybe only a complete zero in the subject

                        Why are you talking about yourself?
                        And so that you have no doubts about yourself at all, I will give you the data of Walter P38 wartime and modern Walter P38. That under a modern cartridge. In the new, some details were strengthened, but the barrel length did not change.
                        So, the "old" Walter P38 - 507 J, the "new" Walter P38 - 550 J. And from the "new" Walter you can shoot any cartridges, and from the "old", only old ones.
                        Guess 3 times, where did the "new" Walter P38 get such an increase in muzzle energy? You don't have to write about three magic spells.
                      2. 0
                        24 August 2015 16: 13
                        Quote: SEC
                        So, the "old" Walter P38 - 507 J, the "new" Walter P38 - 550 J.

                        First tell me a miracle about gunpowder - what kind of brand was used before and what after, otherwise you got something from the topic into the area of ​​P-38 / P-1 / P-4 / P-5 probably because knowledge about the "new" and "old" gunpowder are you not rich?
                      3. 0
                        24 August 2015 16: 26
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Miracle you first tell about the gunpowder

                        Why am I going to tell the boor something? I don’t want, I already wrote to you.
                      4. +1
                        24 August 2015 23: 39
                        Quote: SEC
                        I don’t want, I already wrote to you.

                        Duc is clear the stump will be silent like a partisan - only byala, you are like a bad partisan during interrogation who is silent not because he will not say anything to the enemy, but because he knows nothing. laughing
                        Quote: SEC
                        This is already in the 2nd half of the 20th century. it replaced the gunpowder and made it what it is today. Those. actually an almost standard cartridge for an army pistol.
                        And during the war there were other standard cartridges. Because of another gunpowder.

                        Oh how, a mustache is the case in the new super gunpowder! We will not touch on the Belgians, dates and shaves, although they produced army 9X19 before and during WWII, we will analyze Deutsche to equip their military cartridges during WWII, the Germans used only one gunpowder - Nz.stb.P n \ A 08.08, after the formation of the Bundeswehr the 9mm DM 11 cartridge is being adopted, which is equipped ... correctly with the same gunpowder Nz.stb.P n \ A 08.08, this cartridge is still in service with the Bundes, its version DM11A1B2 is standard in the Bundeswehr, gunpowder in this version already different but the maximum pressure is equivalent to the pressure developed by DM11. So they got to the basics quietly - I specifically inform you that in the world cartridges are not classified by muzzle energy, which may depend on too many factors, they use maximum pressure, and the standard NATO cartridge really develops pressure greater than the standard Pist.patr.08 but it doesn’t boil down to another brand of gunpowder - for example, the same Pist.patr.08 with a weight of 0,35 powder gave a maximum pressure of 240 MPa and its version Pist.patr.08 m. E gave the same pressure but with a weight at 0,4 g and Pist.patr.08 m.SE with a hitch of 0,35 gave a pressure equal to 260 MPa, which is equal to the pressure of the NATO cartridge or + P. Now that concerns directly
                        Quote: SEC
                        This is already in the 2nd half of the 20th century. it replaced the gunpowder

                        Do not bother to name a specific brand of gunpowder? and it’s possible to guess what you had in mind for a very long time, only 9 standard cartridges produced in 19 countries are standardized as standard 22X13 NATO cartridges — so what kind of gunpowder are we talking about? maybe about the line WPR 270, WPR 289, WPR 293? or HPC 26? or SR 7970? or about two dozen brands used for equipment standard NATO cartridges 9X19? or maybe about those gunpowder that is being poured with us - P45 or Sf?
                        Quote: SEC
                        Chemistry also does not stand still.

                        Only here she didn’t make particularly big successes in the creation of pistol powders - for the energy was squeezed out of pyroxylin powders to the maximum in the 30s, and the entire contribution of chemistry since the post-war period has been extra. additives improving the properties of gunpowder but not their energy. the only major breakthrough in the post-war period was the development in the USSR of technology for producing spherical powder grains, but this has an indirect relation to pistol powders.
                      5. 0
                        24 August 2015 23: 53
                        http://topwar.ru/80733-glavnaya-izyuminka-pl-14-eto-ego-ergonomika-i-balans.html
                        # comment-id-4885340
                  2. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            24 August 2015 11: 24
            Quote: avt
            too much milling

            Not quite so - there is not too much milling, but one milling, even to the extent that the case of shops on the first 1900 models. milled.
    2. +1
      22 August 2015 18: 31
      Quote: DesToeR
      take Parabellum.

      What for? Him back in 1942. discontinued as obsolete. Did you mean Walter on the new Para cartridge?
    3. 0
      22 August 2015 22: 55
      No, these are definitely different designs. I dismantled the swift, looked at the device. It is locked by a larva, and the submarine has a modernized Browning system, like Glock. Generally different designs.
  6. +1
    22 August 2015 09: 39
    Quote: avt
    but in the case in our conditions would take OTs-27 Stechkina

    yes with a barrel chambered for 7,62x25mm ...
    1. avt
      +2
      22 August 2015 10: 44
      Quote: DesToeR
      yes with a barrel chambered for 7,62x25mm ...

      No. 9mm is better, but a removable barrel with a magazine under 7,62 does not hurt - let it be. "And at least I'm greedy, but from the bottom of my heart." laughing
  7. +3
    22 August 2015 10: 00
    The first time I see a truly ergonomic silhouette of a domestic pistol, which is served not only as a sport. And it pleases. I hope the submarines really find a balance between convenience and security. I remember that I was surprised by a soft and easy descent in PY, for some reason I didn’t expect such a pistol from the domestic one. But it was more convenient to shoot from a tighter Glock. But 4 kg surprised something.
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 18: 47
      I remember that I was surprised by a soft and easy descent in PY, for some reason I didn’t expect such a pistol from the domestic one. But it was more convenient to shoot from a tighter Glock.
      Surprised too! I handed over to the instructor with 34. Although a regular PY.
      Mr. ......... has a good habit of announcing on Macready that the city is ............
      PS This is not for you.
      1. +1
        23 August 2015 10: 06
        Quote: Hell Angel
        Surprised too! I handed over to the instructor with 34. Although a regular PY.

        And when it was, are you our storyteller? Take for example this is a list of all IPSC instructors in the Novosibirsk Region with identification numbers:



        Are you tired of lying?
        1. 0
          24 August 2015 16: 13
          I handed over not to Novosibirsk and did not register in the "local" one.
        2. 0
          28 August 2015 18: 54
          I know one ... He showed "over a glass of tea" your "comments" in my direction. Neighs! -Can you tell me who you are?
          But they decided not to.
          Conclusion. You are an ordinary troll!
          By the way. You asked permission from them to post their photos on another site?
          1. 0
            31 August 2015 15: 13
            Quote: Hell Angel
            Showed "over a glass of tea" your "comments" in my direction.

            To one - to whom? The same internet war? I understand that in the internet you can be very cool when in real life a complete nerd or worthlessness that has never lifted its penis heavier in life and which tries to convince others otherwise. And on the internet you are a "warrior", "officer" and "instructor" who does not know the basic rules and mows left and right in the comments, not paying attention to the indicated errors.
            Quote: Hell Angel
            You asked permission from them to post their photos on another site?

            And you ask Google, the table from there. Or is there more lack of fantasy?
            1. 0
              1 September 2015 18: 40
              I understand that in the internet you can be very cool when in real life you are a complete nerd or worthlessness who is not lifted harder than your cock in life and who is trying to convince others of the opposite.
              And I don’t have anything to prove to you.
              And on the internet you are a "warrior", "officer" and "instructor" who does not know the basic rules and mows left and right in the comments, not paying attention to the indicated errors.
              I try to write in "human" language, so maybe "shoals".
              1. The Institute is engaged in the retraining of lawyers, shoot go to ROSNO
              The institute is engaged in retraining and special forces. And ROSN is going to shoot at the institute’s training center, equipped with the latest words. But ROSNO is that?
              2. Not UchTs, but SMUTs - a sight laser shooting range.
              He is engaged in continuing education for regional DOS in three areas. There is a shooting range and shooting range.
              Conclusion You are an ordinary Troll. Therefore, a ban from me. About the trigger from AK was especially pleased.
            2. 0
              8 September 2015 07: 42
              Quote: angel of hell
              And I don’t have anything to prove to you.

              Of course you do not have to, the Internet - the garbage can be lied to and dirtied as much as you like.
              Quote: angel of hell
              I try to write in "human" language, so maybe "shoals".

              You, "dear", jambs in the testimony and not in grammar. Today one, tomorrow another.
              Quote: angel of hell
              The institute is engaged in retraining and special forces. And ROSN is going to shoot at the institute’s training center, equipped with the latest words. But ROSNO is that?

              What is special forces studying there? The basics of jurisprudence, or game theory? They study there, not train! And ROSNO is autocorrect! And RUSN shoots at Gorki.

              Quote: angel of hell
              He is engaged in continuing education for regional DOS in three areas. There is a shooting range and a shooting range ..

              For example, these:

              Shooting range and shooting range in one bottle.
              Quote: angel of hell
              Conclusion You are an ordinary Troll. Therefore, a ban from me. About the trigger from AK was especially pleased ..
              Really? Looks like it hurts your eyes if you ban! And about the trigger, the riveting on the rail when it was not a defect, read the repair manual! Expert, damn it ...
  8. +3
    22 August 2015 11: 52
    Another chatter without no future.
  9. +4
    22 August 2015 12: 01
    Quote: pazar66
    Another chatter without no future.

    I fully support.
    Quote: Alexander72
    PM - Makarov’s pistol - agrees wonderful weapon, but not for the army.

    PM - just for the army. For he doesn’t need it there; it is just a symbol.
    A pistol in the modern world is needed by a very small number of specialists.
    Army - he is not needed at all. The army (those who are forced to carry it around) asked for something easier, weighing 400g!

    Someone tell us about the shootings of pistols on the battlefield by the military?
    This makes no sense...
    Another cut of the dough. Another "masterpiece" from athletes.
    1. -10
      22 August 2015 18: 45
      Quote: Leader
      A pistol in the modern world is needed by a very small number of specialists.
      Army - he is not needed at all. The army (those who are forced to carry it around) asked for something easier, weighing 400g!

      In fact, the gun was in the army, is and will be needed.
      To officers, an army pistol. Special, service pistol. Generals, a special gun.
      Actually in the USSR they did this before 2MB. But TK as a special was simply ridiculous. Service Nagan was a revolver. And TT because of its cartridge on the army pistol did not pull. And due to the lack of weapons of junior officers, they were sometimes armed with guns. What was disgrace. It is equivalent to the fact that the infantry were armed with PPSh.
      After the war, they decided to "save". Those. adopted the concept of a "single pistol". The PM was chosen as the single pistol, which was based on the Walter PP, a service pistol in the "policeman" version. For all occasions. True, some categories relied on APS (strange construction of unknown purpose, ersatz of a submachine gun). It was a complete failure.
      Now from under the rubble of this "pistol horror" little by little get out. Already good.
      At the same time, the AK-47 was smashed with a "single individual weapon". But they realized it pretty quickly and this "miracle" was removed from production. Like all other ersatz weapons on the 7,62x39 mm cartridge.
      1. +1
        24 August 2015 11: 31
        The mask and I know you - a Troll with a difficult combination of numbers instead of a nickname returned again under a new guise - Mr. from the Kuptsov sect would go back to their cave.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  10. +2
    22 August 2015 15: 20
    The real case is not cinematic.
    1975 year. Angola South African Army junior lieutenant Lawrence Van Vuuren, armed with a Star pistol (Spanish version of Colt 1911 chambered for 9mm * 19mm) + spare magazine, killed eleven Cubans armed with AK in one battle. Moreover, during the battle Vuuren broke the index finger of his right hand, so he continued the battle firing with his left hand. This fight is recognized as the most effective use of a pistol in one clash, the record is considered not broken so far.

    By the way, the PMM has a magazine capacity of 12 rounds. If desired, you can increase. You can change both the magazine latch and the shutter lag. Yes, and the cartridge is not so weak: in the West the Browning cartridge is used at full swing short 9mm * 17mm, under which the Glocks do. And against modern body armor and 9mm * 19mm is already rather weak.
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 18: 19
      Quote: ignoto
      armed with a Star pistol (the Spanish version of Colt 1911 chambered for 9mm * 19mm) + a spare magazine, in one battle he killed eleven Cubans armed with AK.

      In fact, it is not clear how it happened. If the case really took place. AK is still a much more effective weapon than Star.
      But the lieutenant could have completely killed. I always wrote and continue to write, at a range of up to 50 m the pistol on the MODERN cartridge of Steam is a very formidable weapon. During the WW2 range was less, up to 35 m. But the gunpowder in the cartridge was different.
      Quote: ignoto
      By the way, the PMM has a magazine capacity of 12 rounds. If desired, you can increase. You can change both the magazine latch and the shutter lag. And the cartridge is not so weak

      Normal PMM. He has another flaw, the cartridges are expensive.
  11. +2
    22 August 2015 15: 25
    What a fashion this is, hold a weapon with both hands .... Somehow it is not ours. The instructors have always said in fire training that this is how cowboys shoot at the movies. Ponty it. A pistol is a one-handed weapon, which means you need to shoot with one (if with two hands, then with two pistols). And nitsche - even certificates were given for exercises in the individual championship. The weapon should be unpretentious and maintainable "on the knee". PM is just like AKM. How reliable are the remakes? At the very least, the trigger mechanism of "Makarka" is known and "disease" too. Do the designers confuse weapons for athletes with an ordinary working machine? Maybe the embarrassment comes out ...
    1. +2
      23 August 2015 00: 02
      I will tell you a terrible, terrifying secret.)) All the shooters who shoot with a two-handed grip, shoot perfectly with both left and right hands as necessary. And also lying, sitting, standing on one leg, on the run and so on. Two-handed grip is needed when the enemy is suppressed by fire and the pause between shots is a split second. To do this, you need to tightly control, crush the toss at the kickback. That is, people there are no more stupid than you, they know what they are doing. While the shooter trained in the old school will prepare his shot, the shooter trained in IPSC technique, draw a flower on it with bullets.)))
  12. +3
    22 August 2015 15: 39
    Quote: ignoto
    The real case is not cinematic.
    1975 year. Angola South African Army junior lieutenant Lawrence Van Vuuren, armed with a Star pistol (Spanish version of Colt 1911 chambered for 9mm * 19mm) + spare magazine, killed eleven Cubans armed with AK in one battle. Moreover, during the battle Vuuren broke the index finger of his right hand, so he continued the battle firing with his left hand. This fight is recognized as the most effective use of a pistol in one clash, the record is considered not broken so far.

    You forgot to add in this story that in killing 11 people (Cubans armed with AK), Lawrence Van Vuuren (right-hander) firing a pistol with his left hand spent only 1 bullet. The real case is not cinematic.
  13. +3
    22 August 2015 15: 50
    Quote: Leader
    Army - he is not needed at all. The army (those who are forced to carry it around) asked for something easier, weighing 400g!

    Bingo! GSh-18 weighs about 580g without cartridges and this is one of the lightest pistols chambered for 9x19 Parabellum with a large magazine (18pcs). What they want to do with pistols in Russia is not clear. What is wrong with PYA and OTs-27 for the army, or GSh-18 for the police? All that is needed is that to improve the quality of manufacturing weapons. For special forces there is Gyurza. Or is it necessary, as with cars, to change the lineup every three years? This is nonsense.
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 18: 27
      Quote: DesToeR
      Or is it necessary, as with cars, to change the lineup every three years? This is nonsense.

      Rave. But for a different reason. Usually the military calms down for 80-100 years after the creation of a real masterpiece. Or if you don't have enough money. While the money was, and the masterpiece, in the opinion of the military, was not, there were "developments". Now, most likely, everything will stall at the PY. Not a bad option, actually.
    2. +1
      22 August 2015 18: 29
      With GS-18 you need to shoot. And everything will become clear! This is not a gun! Delays ... etc. Let's not talk about sad things.
      1. +8
        22 August 2015 20: 12
        Quote: Hell Angel
        With GS-18 you need to shoot. And everything will become clear! This is not a gun! Delays ... etc. Let's not talk about sad things.
        Well, they didn’t put up a gun, but not a gun, if our industry was not able to master its high-quality production, what is its fault? Rook in the same pit, the design is good, and the quality of execution is fecal. What can I say about pistols if some AK parties managed to ditch ....
        Until the hard OTK returns, there’s no need to talk about any pistols. Where is our new AK ??? At the fifth point, they worked out, took into account the comments, and build the new netuti production line of money !!!
        In general, our arms industry is very much carried away by balabols and boasting, which only the name "koncierna" is worth ...
  14. 0
    22 August 2015 18: 05
    The PL-14 will pass the entire line of tests and conclusions of experts and shooters - it will be interesting to read the results in a year! Congratulations to the developers that do not stand still. Choosing for serial production for decades will be of what. The price of error is very expensive.

    Do not miss, Ministry of Defense soldier
    1. +1
      22 August 2015 18: 25
      Quote: xomaNN
      Do not miss, Ministry of Defense


      Wangyu. Don't miss it. That is, refuse.
  15. 0
    22 August 2015 18: 13
    Everything that has been done in Russia is all beautiful !!! good
  16. 0
    22 August 2015 18: 38
    The gun is beautiful and probably very comfortable. But the back bevel on the shutter is in my opinion out of place. Although this is a matter of taste.
  17. 0
    22 August 2015 19: 26
    There is modest hope in the name of the concern.
  18. +2
    22 August 2015 21: 11
    Quote: SEC
    What for? Him back in 1942. discontinued as obsolete. Did you mean Walter on the new Para cartridge?

    No. I meant a pistol, which became the standard for accuracy and accuracy of fire, a pistol designed with mathematical precision, a pistol that is banned in some countries as a weapon of targeted destruction, a pistol that, since August 2011, has been included in the list of award weapons of the Russian Federation - the Bohardt- pistol Luger Parabellum P08.
    1. -1
      22 August 2015 21: 47
      Quote: DesToeR
      I meant a pistol, which became the standard for accuracy and accuracy of fire, a pistol designed with mathematical precision, a pistol that is banned in some countries as a weapon of targeted destruction, a pistol that, since August 2011, has been included in the list of award weapons of the Russian Federation - the Bohardt- pistol Luger Parabellum P08.

      Very sorry. Somewhere here on a branch, I already wrote about it. Here, I found:
      Of the entire line, only M.1904 and LP.08 have ballistics, somehow suitable for an army pistol. But it’s difficult to put them there because of the mass-dimensional characteristics. In other words, everything is not easy with Luger. PY is clearly better.
      Although it is difficult to disagree with the fact that the Parabellum models with a 102 mm barrel look pretty.
    2. 0
      25 October 2015 19: 27
      Quote: DesToeR
      which is banned in certain countries as a weapon of targeted destruction

      Wah! I am directly amazed at your fountains.
      Quote: DesToeR
      which since August 2011 has been included in the list of award weapons of the Russian Federation - the Bochardt-Luger pistol Parabellum P08

      Here. That's where he belongs. Even the Germans, even before the war, abandoned this "weapon of targeted destruction" in favor of the rather ordinary Walter P38. And they were absolutely right. Walter lacked stars from the sky, but he was more or less conditioned. Unlike Luger. How an army pistol Par had sucked at the start of the war (was too weak). But, as a service weapon, it was still used. Mainly in the rear units.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  19. +5
    22 August 2015 23: 43
    The confusion in the people’s heads from the misunderstanding that it is impossible to create a single pistol for the Army, Police and Sports. It’s the same as trying to invent shoes that can simultaneously be mountain boots, sneakers, marsh boots and beach slippers.)) There are pistols for everyday wear, police officers. They should be compact, light, with a weakened cartridge, but a good stopping effect. So that when arresting a shot, only the offender is struck, and not all residents in neighboring apartments on the entire floor of the building.)) PMM with expansive bullets for this is better not necessary. To suppress more heavily armed criminals, it’s no longer necessary for the district police officer, but Special Forces with submachine guns and machine guns, grenades.
    There are assault army pistols. They are more massive, with a large magazine capacity and often an automatic fire function. APS was once used as an assault pistol. Most army officers only need a gun to shoot the deserter or shoot themselves, so that they do not give out secrets to the enemy under torture. Here the caliber and tilt of the handle are secondary.
    What do we see on the example of the PL-14? Typically a sports pistol. Beautiful in design, with a curtsy in the direction of the military, but the sporty design is obvious.
    It is preferable to have any military pistol with a 2-row magazine without rebuilding and a minimal tilt of the handle. Because in the war, the shooter can plunge headlong into it at the ear to the ears, and after that the store is obliged to ensure the delivery of our shitty cartridges with a varnished sleeve to the breech.

    Any sports pistol is long, precise mating with minimal gaps like STI, CZ, Tanfoglio. And service and army pistols have short runners of the guiding frames, increased clearances of the breech and parts of the trigger. And a bunch of other nuances and differences that describe laziness.))
    1. -6
      23 August 2015 01: 32
      Quote: strelok-54
      PMM with expansive bullets for this - better not

      Want to turn cops into hitmen? PMM with such cartridges is a weapon of destruction. In addition, prohibited by the Hague Convention. The police have slightly different tasks. PM, that's all the police need today. Of course, usual, not in a "hot spot".
      Quote: strelok-54
      There are assault army pistols. They are more massive, with a large magazine capacity and often an automatic fire function. APS was once used as an assault pistol.

      This, my friend, is not so. There are army pistols. And in addition to them, the USSR tried to make some kind of ersatz PP. Do you want to call this "miracle" assault pistol? Name. But it was actually an automatic pistol.
      Quote: strelok-54
      Most army officers only need a gun to shoot a deserter

      Such an "officer" is subject to a military tribunal. With the subsequent execution. But already on the verdict. Before the formation. To discourage others. Even General Leclerc was nearly shot. He barely got away with it, sick. and there were not deserters, but French SS men. But his career ended there. Of course, all this concerns a normal country, not the USSR.
      Quote: strelok-54
      or shoot yourself, so that under the torture of the enemy secrets do not give out

      What nonsense. The officer has no obligation to shoot himself. Just as there is no obligation to remain silent under torture. And not surrendering in a hopeless situation is also stupid. The Bolsheviks came up with all sorts of crap. Moreover, the families of such officers were repressed. So shkolota thrashes nonsense about "shooting". And you repeat.
      The army pistol is a normal melee weapon. Of course, if it's a normal pistol. The first such pistol was the PYa (RF) pistol. There were no such pistols in the armies of Russia and the USSR. Some stories about "shoot yourself".
  20. +1
    23 August 2015 00: 01
    It is not clear all these many years of throwing in the choice of a pistol for law enforcement agencies, then one was advertised, then another, for example, the GSh-18 is bad, light, which is of no small importance for army weapons, good, quite accurate, delays occur, so this is not the fault design, and workmanship, technology level. But the pulling force of the trigger in the PL-14 in 4 kg is too much, there can be no question of any accurate shot, and even at a distance of 40-50 meters, and this for an army pistol may well be an ordinary distance. Inventing a new "bicycle" just for the sake of ergonomics?
  21. +3
    23 August 2015 00: 38
    Quote: Svidetel 45
    It is not clear all these many years of throwing in the choice of a pistol for law enforcement agencies, then one was advertised, then another, for example, the GSh-18 is bad, light, which is of no small importance for army weapons, good, quite accurate, delays occur, so this is not the fault design, and workmanship, technology level. But the pulling force of the trigger in the PL-14 in 4 kg is too much, there can be no question of any accurate shot, and even at a distance of 40-50 meters, and this for an army pistol may well be an ordinary distance. Inventing a new "bicycle" just for the sake of ergonomics?


    No, the effort is 4 kg. not taken from the ceiling. The SigSauer P-226 has a similar force out of the box. Have our Yarygin tried to squeeze the mainspring by self-cocking? There, too, no less than 4 kg. This is how designers implement "foolproof". For them, every military man who gets a pistol seems like an idiot striving to shoot his own balls. And, to be honest, they are not far from the truth. There are a small number of people trained in the rules of safe handling of weapons even in the Army and all kinds of services.

    To develop such a reflex of proper handling of weapons, constant practical training is needed. So that it settles into the subcortex on an unconscious level. Otherwise, he ran, turned, someone nearby began to shoot - and everything that he taught, was forgotten, flew out of his head. And now the finger accidentally lay on the trigger, here it is the poor fellow hesitated - bang! And the comrade was not ahead. Therefore, they make protection against a low level of skills by creating additional resistance.
    Not only here, but all over the world. The same police Steyr M9-A1 has a very tight descent.
    But for a trained shooter, tight descent is not a problem. A trained shooter is not only one who knows how to pull the trigger and knows how not to shoot his leg and his comrade. A trained shooter who knows how his gun works. What are the details in it, how do they interact. A trained shooter knows where the increase or decrease in trigger effort comes from. And either replace the battle springs, or cut. And you can completely scatter the entire trigger and polish all the pairings with diamond paste.
    But if you were the “comrade” running in front and another “comrade” you don't know is running behind, you would prefer that he had a tight enough descent on the trigger. )))

    And about GSH-18. I had to shoot from it. There was a feeling that he not only has an extremely low quality of workmanship, but not everything is smooth in the design. For specifically "goats" in the hands. It doesn't smell like a balance.

    And when I mean "poor workmanship", then I assure you that you have no idea how low it is. It was as if the PTU-shnik tore out with a file from a piece of metal.
  22. +1
    23 August 2015 00: 53
    Quote: DesToeR
    Quote: SEC
    What for? Him back in 1942. discontinued as obsolete. Did you mean Walter on the new Para cartridge?

    No. I meant a pistol, which became the standard for accuracy and accuracy of fire, a pistol designed with mathematical precision, a pistol that is banned in some countries as a weapon of targeted destruction, a pistol that, since August 2011, has been included in the list of award weapons of the Russian Federation - the Bohardt- pistol Luger Parabellum P08.

    The gun, which is known for the fact that due to its weak protection from an involuntary shot, many people suffered and even died. Luger is original and beautiful in design. Convenient in ergonomics (except for the safety bracket). But it is expensive in mass production and has a trigger with weak protection against accidental shots.
    If you need more abstracts for criticism, then please. Single descent. The inability to finish the capsule by repeated tapping using self-cocking. Parabellum is more like a sports pistol.
  23. +2
    23 August 2015 00: 59
    I imagine the scene when two designers come to Stalin and claim that they created a new gun and that it needs to be put into mass production.

    “Argument,” says Joseph Vissarionovich.

    - Our pistol has the main "highlight" in its ergonomics and balance!

    -Hmm! ... the leader thought. - That is, if I now order you both to be shot in the basement from a serial TT, do you think the ergonomics that are not good enough and the balance of the Tokarev pistol will help you with something?

    I repeat. I am already in absentia pretty PL-14. But just like a sports pistol for IPSC. But we must stop giving him away as a service and military pistol.
  24. +2
    23 August 2015 02: 13
    Quote: SEC
    Quote: strelok-54
    PMM with expansive bullets for this - better not

    Want to turn cops into hitmen? PMM with such cartridges is a weapon of destruction. In addition, prohibited by the Hague Convention. The police have slightly different tasks. PM, that's all the police need today. Of course, usual, not in a "hot spot".

    Quote: strelok-54
    Most army officers only need a gun to shoot a deserter

    Such an "officer" is subject to a military tribunal. With the subsequent execution. But already on the verdict. Before the formation. To discourage others. Even General Leclerc was nearly shot. He barely got away with it, sick. and there were not deserters, but French SS men. But his career ended there. Of course, all this concerns a normal country, not the USSR.
    Quote: strelok-54
    or shoot yourself, so that under the torture of the enemy secrets do not give out

    What nonsense. The officer has no obligation to shoot himself. Just as there is no obligation to remain silent under torture. And not surrendering in a hopeless situation is also stupid. The Bolsheviks came up with all sorts of crap. Moreover, the families of such officers were repressed. So shkolota thrashes nonsense about "shooting". And you repeat.
    The army pistol is a normal melee weapon. Of course, if it's a normal pistol. The first such pistol was the PYa (RF) pistol. There were no such pistols in the armies of Russia and the USSR. Some stories about "shoot yourself".


    What you wrote to me is amateurish and pureblood.
    You at least take the trouble to get acquainted with this very Hague Convention of 1907 to which you are referring. And it turns out "I heard the ringing, but I don't know where he is"
    This convention deals with hostilities and is entitled “Convention on the Laws and Customs of War on Land”. It says nothing about the detention of criminals and police operations. Take the trouble to also study more closely the assortment of pistol ammunition with expansive bullets, which are in service with police officers around the world.

    Ignorant and amateur rushing out of every word you say. Do you even know why police are trained to produce accurate flash? Need to explain to the amateur what it is? ))) This is a double shot. Which in separate instructions is recommended to be supplemented with a mandatory control shot to the head. So yes, the police either don’t get their weapons, or they get out and shoot and then they want to kill guaranteed. And all this is within the law.
    It is in the west. In Russia, because of such purebreds like you, the lives of policemen are often put in great danger. When you need to bring down. It got to the point that in the middle of the market a policeman punched his head with brass knuckles.

    And if I were caught in the unit behind the front line, such a sneak that was not obliged to keep secrets and had the right to surrender, I would personally slam it, my hand would not tremble.
    1. -1
      23 August 2015 08: 48
      Quote: strelok-54
      Do you even bother to get acquainted with this very Hague Convention of 1907 to which you refer.

      I can recommend this to you. Expansive bullets are only allowed for hunting. They are even forbidden for war. And you propose to equip the police with them. American films should be watched less often.
      Quote: strelok-54
      detention of criminals and police operations there is nothing said.

      Those. foreigners who came to your land with weapons in their hands, you suggest in accordance with the Hague Convention to protect. And compatriots (mainly a contingent of police) are to blame, like mountain goats and rams. You are an amazing ... organism.
      By the way, the police rarely detain (and not bring down) criminals. It mainly deals with the SUSPECTED. Why then bring down the suspects right away? Can't the police make a mistake?
      Quote: strelok-54
      Take the trouble to also take a closer look at the assortment of pistol ammunition with expansive bullets that are in service with police around the world.

      I repeat to you once again. Expansive bullets against people in police operations are used only in flashing countries. And American films.
      Quote: strelok-54
      So yes, the police either don’t get their weapons, or they get out and shoot and then they want to kill guaranteed. And all this is within the law.

      What country law? In which West? In the wild? 200 years ago?
      Quote: strelok-54
      police life is often put at risk. When you need to bring down. It got to the point that in the middle of the market a policeman punched his head with brass knuckles.

      And so what? Yes, it probably happens, they break through. This work. Do not like it, go to the accountants. Calm and safe.
      Or now we have to conclude that the police must ride through the streets in tanks periodically firing around? Do not bend the stick. And think what you write. And then they can shoot you. And your loved ones. For company with someone else.
      Quote: strelok-54
      I would personally slam, my hand would not flinch.

      No doubt. But I doubt your mental state. A passion for destroying your own kind is an unhealthy passion. Regardless of the preposition. For power structures, you are definitely unsuitable. They won’t take you there, now there are psychologists everywhere. Which will quickly calculate you and will be removed from service. With a wolf ticket. So you won’t be able to go into intelligence. Unless, like Shurik in the film. From a special institution.
  25. +1
    23 August 2015 08: 37
    More precisely, the police use weapons. They are used for people, used for other purposes.
    By the way, not so PM and a police gun. Previously, PM pistols were shot at 50 meters for the army and 25 meters for the police. For the police, I can not stand the word police-policeman in the translation of the city, but in the village, who?
  26. 0
    24 August 2015 14: 01
    Quote: SEC
    Quote: gross kaput
    Well smoke enlighten us

    There is no military secret here. An army pistol is used for reliable destruction (not only defeat, as local sportsmen claim) of enemy personnel at a distance of up to 50 m. At the same time, the minimum acceptable distance is 30 m. Less, substandard. More, not necessary, this is the "sphere of activity" of other types of small arms.


    As you said? "destruction"? Again, I will send you to re-read the text of the Hague Convention of 1907 "On the Laws and Customs of War on Ground," which says that the enemy's manpower must be defeated, not destroyed. That is why the military is prohibited from bullets such as "Dum-Dum" and other expansive ammunition. Police and hunters are allowed these ammunition. For the military, no.

    Therefore, you confuse concepts again. An army pistol is a tool for defeating, incapacitating, enemy manpower. And not for its destruction.

    Otherwise, bullets should be made in the form of small nuclear bombs. So that there is no dust left from the advancing enemy.

    I’ll also tell you a terrible secret that you can’t wet the bullet with poison.
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 14: 49
      Quote: strelok-54
      where it is just said that the living force of the enemy must be defeated, and not destroyed.

      Oh really? In which chapter and article, if not secret?
      Quote: strelok-54
      That is why the military is prohibited from bullets such as "Dum-Dum" and other expansive ammunition. Police and hunters are allowed these ammunition. For the military, no.

      Gee-gee. How are you feeling? You can’t shoot the military at the enemy, but can you police the suspects? I wrote to you a couple of days ago on the same thread. Only hunters can. Clear?
      Quote: strelok-54
      An army pistol is a tool for defeating, incapacitating, enemy manpower. And not for its destruction.

      Did you come up with this yourself? Don't like the term "destruction"? That's right, they usually use "secure defeat". The essence is the same, but it sounds softer.
      Quote: strelok-54
      I’ll also tell you a terrible secret that you can’t wet a bullet with poison

      Who would have thought! Why do you read paragraph a, article 23, chapter 1 of the Convention.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  27. -1
    24 August 2015 14: 15
    Quote: gross kaput
    Quote: SEC
    This is already in the 2nd half of the 20th century. it replaced the gunpowder and made it what it is today.

    Do not bother telling what brand of gunpowder was first and which one it was replaced with?


    Obviously, he is sure that the first Para cartridges were equipped with the same gunpowder that the Chinese invented and manufactured. The Chinese gunpowder of the Qi Dynasty Huang Di simply lay in warehouses, waiting for it to be shoved into 9x19 cartridges.
    1. -1
      24 August 2015 15: 12
      Quote: strelok-54
      Obviously, he is sure that the first Para cartridges were equipped with the same gunpowder that the Chinese invented and manufactured. The Chinese gunpowder of the Qi Dynasty Huang Di simply lay in warehouses, waiting for it to be shoved into 9x19 cartridges.

      You must be able to joke too. You didn’t succeed.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  28. 0
    24 August 2015 14: 45
    Here, of course, most people know, but many do not know some of the nuances, what are the limitations on the design of PM. Why can't you just refine the PM to 9x19 caliber? Why it is difficult to upgrade to modern requirements. Although trial modifications under a more powerful cartridge were. The Czechs in the CZ lineup seem to have such a modification.

    The fact is that the Makarov pistol works according to the free rollback scheme. With the shortened 9x18 "kurz" cartridge, the recoil energy is sufficient and not too strong to apply this simple free shutter scheme.

    If you just bore the breech under 9x19 mm, which is actually only 1 mm larger, then the free shutter will jump off when fired with such force that it quickly breaks the frame and can injure the arrow. And the gun will unacceptably give a big shot at every shot.

    You need to either heavily weight the shutter and it will turn into a steel weight, like on PPS or PPSh, or switch to any scheme for locking the shutter. With a warp, with a turn, with a locking larva. And this is a completely different gun looming.

    PM capacity can be constructively increased without difficulty. What has been done in the PMM. But the store reset button, like modern pistols, has serious difficulties. At the Makarov pistol, in the place where it would be necessary to enter this button from the author, the hinge of the safety bracket is originally located. If you hinge the hinge and put there a convenient store reset button, then you need to change the shutter closure device on the frame. That is, one intervention in the structure makes it necessary to intervene in other places of the structure.

    If the task is to give the Russian police a new gun, then it’s generally easier to copy Walter PPK or create a completely new gun so as not to go into such deep alterations.

    Now it would be the ideal and fastest solution, perhaps to buy a license for the CZ P-07. For the police, it is the most suitable in its parameters in my opinion. Of those pistols that are in my field of vision among the new products. Or make your own line on the subject of this gun.

    A classic PM with an uncomfortable magazine lock and low ammunition capacity is an ideal candidate for the civilian personal weapon market, which we, unfortunately, do not have yet. The state will never allow its citizens, whom it loves in words to possess the same modern convenient and powerful weapons as the police, which, again from their words, should protect the interests of citizens, not the authorities. ))) Then let the citizens have at least morally obsolete, with a small capacity of cartridges, with a slow reloading process, but pistols. And the police will be comfortable, with large stores and more powerful cartridges. To always be clear who has more rights.

    Then PM deposits in long-term storage warehouses could be sold and made a profit, and people would get at least some real weapons for self-defense.

    In this case, injuries should be prohibited, because it can also kill, but you can’t find rifling on rubber. Sell ​​weapons only to those who have served in the Army and have a driver’s license and have no criminal record.
    1. -1
      24 August 2015 15: 09
      Quote: strelok-54
      If you just bore the breech under 9x19 mm, which is actually just 1 mm more

      Oh ho ho. Dear you are my man. What do you write about something you don’t understand at all?
      The diameter of the cartridge and bullets PM MORE diameter of cartridge and bullet Steam. And the caliber of the pistol on the Pair cartridge (along the rifling fields) is actually not 9 mm, but 8,8 mm. If you do not like to measure along the fields of rifling, you can measure by rifling. Then the PM cartridge bullet will be 9,27 mm caliber, and the Steam cartridge bullet will be 9,03 mm.
      therefore WASTE nothing will work out.
      And the length of the Para cartridge is more than the length of the PM cartridge not "by only 1 mm", but by 5 mm. Because bullets of very different shapes.
      And not the breech, but the chamber.
  29. +1
    24 August 2015 15: 13
    Quote: SEC
    Quote: strelok-54
    If you just bore the breech under 9x19 mm, which is actually just 1 mm more

    Oh ho ho. Dear you are my man. What do you write about something you don’t understand at all?
    The diameter of the cartridge and bullets PM MORE diameter of cartridge and bullet Steam. And the caliber of the pistol on the Pair cartridge (along the rifling fields) is actually not 9 mm, but 8,8 mm. If you do not like to measure along the fields of rifling, you can measure by rifling. Then the PM cartridge bullet will be 9,27 mm caliber, and the Steam cartridge bullet will be 9,03 mm.
    therefore WASTE nothing will work out.
    And the length of the Para cartridge is more than the length of the PM cartridge not "by only 1 mm", but by 5 mm. Because bullets of very different shapes.
    And not the breech, but the chamber.


    Eccentric. I’m talking about the weight of gunpowder, and not about the fields of rifling.
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 15: 28
      Quote: strelok-54
      I’m talking about the weight of gunpowder, and not about the fields of rifling.

      You suggested "to squander a sample of gunpowder in the breech"? Not only is it impossible for you to joke, but also to get out.
      1. +1
        24 August 2015 15: 42
        Quote: SEC
        Quote: strelok-54
        I’m talking about the weight of gunpowder, and not about the fields of rifling.

        You suggested "to squander a sample of gunpowder in the breech"? Not only is it impossible for you to joke, but also to get out.


        And you can't say anything smart. You know perfectly well what I meant when I said "breech". But if you don’t know, then I’ll explain. "Breech" in the jargon of gunsmiths and military is the back (breech) of the barrel. In which (and nowhere else), the "chamber" is structurally located.

        But if you know a way to squander a chamber without boring a breech, then I will listen with interest. )))

        I can also say separately as an educational program that the sleeve and bullet are two separate parts that can be changed. For example, squeeze another bullet into the sleeve. Or roll the sleeve under another bullet.

        Tenths and hundredths of millimeters, to which your vanity picks at, is a particular. When it comes to designing a pistol-cartridge system, this nuance will always be taken into account. I did not suggest stupidly to take a bullet from a parabellum, but said that a small additional weight of gunpowder leads to a significant increase in the energy of the cartridge. So much so that you have to change the locking scheme. Try to object to this thesis.

        I suggest thinking from the basic aspects of the question of why it is difficult to apply a cartridge with dimensions and power of 9x19 Par. in the Makarov pistol. And you find fault with the nuances that everyone knows without you. No need to try to show awareness and look smarter than they are. Look silly again.
        1. -1
          24 August 2015 15: 54
          Quote: strelok-54
          But if you know a way to squander a chamber without boring a breech, then I will listen with interest.

          Again you clumsily get out. I expressed to you a specific bewilderment about how you can "squander the breech" under the LESS diameter.
          Quote: strelok-54
          The tenths and hundredths of a millimeter, to which your vanity is faulty, is a particular.

          Actually, the muzzle of the Para case is 9,65 mm, and the muzzle of the PM case is 9,91 mm. 26 mm, this is not "Tenths and hundredths of millimeters, to which your pride finds fault, this is a particular."
          Quote: strelok-54
          I suggest thinking from the basic aspects of the question of why it is difficult to apply a cartridge with dimensions and power of 9x19 Par. in the Makarov pistol.

          You write about what cannot be done in principle. Want more squander laughing into less. They made fun.
          Quote: strelok-54
          Look silly again

          What's again? What a horror! And when was the last time before this? feel
  30. 0
    24 August 2015 15: 20
    Quote: SEC
    Quote: strelok-54
    where it is just said that the living force of the enemy must be defeated, and not destroyed.

    Oh really? In which chapter and article, if not secret?


    Take care of yourself at your leisure, young man. Especially for you:

    "the belligerents do not enjoy an unlimited right in choosing the means of harming the enemy" (Article 22 of the Convention on the Laws and Customs of War on Land of October 18, 1907). This provision was confirmed in Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War (1949): "the right of the parties to the conflict to choose the methods or means of warfare is not unlimited" (Article 35).

    Means of warfare - weapons and other means used by the armed forces of the belligerents to inflict harm and defeat the enemy. International humanitarian law classifies those prohibited means of warfare as those that cause unnecessary suffering with their striking properties: bullets that are easily deployed or flattened in the human body; shells weighing less than 400 grams, stuffed with explosives or flammable substances; poisons or poisoned weapons; shells with a single purpose - to distribute toxic substances; choking and other toxic gases and bacteriological agents; bacteriological (biological) and toxin weapons; means of environmental impact that have widespread, long-term or serious consequences, as methods of destruction, damage or harm; specific conventional indiscriminate weapons and weapons whose use causes excessive damage or suffering
    The ban on the use of weapons and ammunition with the ability to cause excessive damage and unnecessary suffering was confirmed by Art. 35 of Additional Protocol I and is regarded as a rule of customary international law. The Hague Declaration establishes a minimum standard level for what is meant by "excessive damage" and "unnecessary suffering". Other small caliber projectiles causing the same damage should be considered prohibited under customary international law.

    So the military is engaged precisely in the "defeat" of the enemy's manpower in accordance with international law. But the police have the right to "destroy" the criminal in the provision of armed resistance.

    Therefore, the first bullets are one-piece, without the possibility of deformation or fragmentation. And the latter are allowed any of the most atrocious ammunition like the Dum-Dum bullets.

    In general, the student already got it. )))
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 15: 45
      Quote: strelok-54
      So the military is engaged precisely in the "defeat" of the enemy's manpower in accordance with international law.

      Will you show me where it is written about "defeat"? And where is the ban on "destruction" ("reliable defeat"). This is not the case. Do you think that the more the footcloth is laid out, the more reliable? No, it is not.
      Quote: strelok-54
      But the police have the right to "destroy" the criminal in the provision of armed resistance.

      Does he have a "Criminal" tag? With what fright it is necessary to destroy it? In the Russian Federation, even the death penalty is not applied, and you propose to shoot with expansive bullets suspects.
      Do not grind nonsense. An ordinary PM pistol with ordinary police bullets is enough.
      Quote: strelok-54
      Therefore, in the first bullets are completely enveloped without the possibility of deformation or fragmentation.

      Doesn't it bother you that in the 70s of the last century the leading armies of the world did not give a damn about the Convention (Declarations of 1868 and 1899) and massively adopted practically prohibited ammunition? They are not defragmented (although this cannot be said about the SS109 pool, it gets fragmented just at the end). But on the other hand, they easily unfold, which is generally prohibited. Why do you think this was done, for the purpose of "defeat" or for the purpose of "reliable defeat"?
      Quote: strelok-54
      In general, the student already got it. )

      How do you manage to read my mind?
      1. +1
        25 August 2015 00: 06
        ZVTZO registered a new account? just don’t have to rub that 190815 is not you - I looked at your posts in other topics, only one person tried to convey a brilliant idea about the effective firing range from the PPSh at 30m to the people, or rather Troll. So let’s split you up on a quick three this account and create a new one, but rather just leave the VO and forget the way here.
        1. 0
          25 August 2015 08: 13
          Quote: gross kaput
          Only one person tried to convey the brilliant idea about the effective firing range from PPSh at 30m to the people, or rather Troll.

          You are my miracle. I'm just amazed at your militant ignorance. That's because the formulas that you need to learn wrote. And the argument that a good weapon has not been in service for 18 years, brought few.
          And to you, as against a wall with peas. Are you overly stubborn or stupid?
          1. 0
            25 August 2015 14: 31
            Quote: SEC
            I'm just amazed at your militant ignorance

            Shaw already talking to himself? Maybe then you’ll completely disappear from VO? or again in the subject you will litter and when you completely change your nickname?
            Quote: SEC
            good weapons in service 18 years are not worth it

            That’s because the MP-40 was armed for only 5 years, and if you believe some dreamers, it has twice the effective range, Tommy-gan is even less from 1940 to 1944. So before you write heresy at least a little bit about delve into, and your task is clear - smear shit on domestic weapons, but the implementation is lame due to limited knowledge.
            1. 0
              25 August 2015 16: 25
              Quote: gross kaput
              Well, after all, the MP-40 was armed for only 5 years, and after all, according to some visionaries, it has twice the effective range

              Yes, twice as many as PPSh. Only read on this thread, at a minimum for normal software. PP was unimportant, for short.
              Quote: gross kaput
              Tommy Gun is even smaller from 1940 to 1944.

              From 1921 to 1971 Learn the materiel.
              Quote: gross kaput
              otherwise your task is clear - smear shit on domestic weapons

              Which domestic? Icelandic? Have you even seen your IP? Does Icelandic weapon exist at all?
              You are my dear Icelandic emigrant. Do not try to describe complex things in simple words. And in general, there is no need to describe anything. You. You're not doing well.
  31. +1
    25 August 2015 00: 02
    strelok-54 and don’t strain you like that - this taishch is an ordinary TROLC, he was hanging out there that week and crap in the subject on TT only under the nickname 190815, he deleted that account and registered a new one.
  32. 0
    25 August 2015 00: 11
    What about the use of armor-piercing cartridges. As, for example, GSh-18 or SR-1 pistols. In my opinion, this aspect is also important for special forces assault groups.
  33. 0
    25 August 2015 00: 21
    Quote: gross kaput
    strelok-54 and don’t strain you like that - this taishch is an ordinary TROLC, he was hanging out there that week and crap in the subject on TT only under the nickname 190815, he deleted that account and registered a new one.


    I also think that this is a typical "troll" not worthy of our attention. ))
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 08: 05
      Quote: strelok-54
      not worthy of our attention.

      You pull up, worthy. They don’t know the basics, but to discuss everything there.
      1. +1
        25 August 2015 10: 30
        Quote: SEC
        You pull up, worthy. They don’t know the basics, but they’ll discuss the same

        Have you already published a book on alternative history of weapons ?! Where can I buy?! laughing Young man, if you continue to lean so heavily on the heavy chemistry and creations of Kuptsov, then we will definitely never catch you laughing
        1. 0
          25 August 2015 10: 51
          Quote: gross kaput
          Have you already published a book on alternative history of weapons ?!

          Why alternative?
          You tell me, are you really not catching up? Or fool around?
          It is obvious that:
          1. 7,62 mm caliber pistol NONE IN ONE COUNTRY OF THE WORLD was not the main army. And in the USSR he was only 18 years old. It is an accident? In addition to the first drawback, the TT still had a small amount of DE (487 J).
          2. Gun with DE less than 500 J NONE IN ONE COUNTRY OF THE WORLD was not the main army (after 2MB and beyond). And in the USSR, he was only 40 years old (PM). It is an accident?
          3. The weapon on the cartridge with classic bullet energy of the order of 2000 J NONE IN ONE COUNTRY OF THE WORLD was not the main army (after 2MB and beyond). This is about the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. And in the USSR he was only 27 years old. It is an accident?
          And such examples can be given until blue in the face. But I already hope that these are enough. Or, you, like Baba Yaga, are always against it? The principle is this?
          You need to learn. Interested in. Ask. Master the basics. And only then gradually start arguing.
          1. 0
            25 August 2015 14: 16
            Quote: SEC
            7,62 mm pistol NONE IN ONE COUNTRY OF THE WORLD

            If you were a young man, you would have figured out a little something - between the wars and in the first post-war period, the main pistol cartridges of 7,62-8 mm and weapons for them were armed with France, Japan, Italy, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Hungary and many others - so if you do not know this does not mean that he was not.
            Quote: SEC
            A gun with a DE of less than 500 JI IN NO ONE COUNTRY OF THE WORLD

            Still more neglected - the GDR, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, China, and another twenty countries are simpler.
            Quote: SEC
            This is about the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. And in the USSR he was only 27 years old.

            Duc, the stump is clear, but the Americans and their satellites took the masterpiece 7,62X51, as a result, they spent a lot of money, and at the exit they got the same guarantor only with a detachable store and auth. fire and in addition to it were forced to keep in the troops and PP - "oil cans" were still standard weapons in Vietnam. And then the brilliant 5,56, only now that byada, having fought with him in Afghanistan, were forced to urgently return to the M-14 troops and the Bundesians G-3, because the Taliban with an unsuccessful cartridge flew mattress mats from distances inaccessible to their successful patron. And the unsuccessful cartridge is the most widespread in the world.
            Quote: SEC
            Weapons on a cartridge with a classic bullet with an energy of the order of 2000 JOI IN ONE COUNTRY WORLD

            Although after this phrase the adequacy of the person who wrote it is suspicious, the very 7,62X39 is the most massive machine gun in the world to date.
            1. 0
              25 August 2015 16: 18
              Quote: gross kaput
              during the period between the wars and in the first post-war period, France, Japan, Italy, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Hungary and many others armed with the main pistol rounds 7,62-8mm and weapons under them

              I do not know such examples. At least successful. Because there are laws of physics. And I do not think that someone managed to get around them. Even the Hungarians.
              Quote: gross kaput
              East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, China, and another two dozen countries are simpler.

              Wow. What a "solid list". What are these giants of the world shooting market?
              Quote: gross kaput
              masterpiece 7,62X51 as a result spent a lot of attendants and at the exit received the same guarantee only with a detachable store and author. fire

              I do not argue that the M-14 was not much better than Garanda. What matters is that he was NOT WORSE. Like an AK-47.
              Quote: gross kaput
              And then the brilliant 5,56, only after fighting against him in Afghanistan, they were forced to urgently return to the M-14 troops and the G-3 Bundes for the Taliban with an unsuccessful patron fenced mattress covers from distances inaccessible to their successful patron.

              What kind of fears do you paint. Azhnik from them vomiting and diarrhea.
              This is actually bullshit. In the army, 5,56 mm was used in individual weapons. 7,62 mm was used in machine guns. I also admit the use of the M-14 for some special operations. At the same time, the specially-designed warhead, M-14, unlike the AK-47, is an air-conditioned army weapon.
              Quote: gross kaput
              the same 7,62X39 is the most massive submachine gun cartridge in the world to date.

              Oh really? You still write "unparalleled in the world"This is really so. Such ammunition and weapons on them have not been produced anywhere else in the world. As unnecessary.
              1. 0
                26 August 2015 12: 44
                Quote: SEC
                I do not know such examples.

                Miracle do you even decide what you need is whether the country where the pistol under 7,62 was the main army or
                Quote: SEC
                At least successful.
                unfortunately you generally know very little.
                Quote: SEC
                I also allow the use of the M-14 for some special operations

                About how you are running, not only you don’t know the story, but even modern events have passed you by. Well, take a look at leisure, take an interest in how many contingents in Iraq and Afghanistan hastily sent the M-2003 since 14, both in pure form and hereinafter MoD.0, EBR, SOCOM 1, SOCOM2. And how many Deutschland sent the G3A3 to their contingent in Afghanistan and why the Bundes in a hurry adopted the version of the HK417 under the G28 index.
                Quote: SEC
                the rider from them vomiting and diarrhea.

                So probably the brain therefore flowed out.
                Quote: SEC
                You still write "unparalleled in the world." This is really so. Such ammunition and weapons on them have not been produced anywhere else in the world.

                Clown weapons and ammunition under 7,62X39 were produced in dozens of countries, unlike We-16.
                Quote: SEC
                As unnecessary.

                Because you didn’t need it, you didn’t load your brain with knowledge - this is exactly a fact of reinforced concrete.
                PS Here is the clearest example of upbringing for 23 years of independence - in the head there is complete mess, critical thinking and logic are not away - for it was kicked out of them because a thinking person starts asking questions sooner or later, and as a result, such a stupid troll
                Quote: SEC
                ZVTSO

                three hohlotrol mistakes
                1 - It is impossible to smear the things that are discussed on specialized forums with shit without evidence and leading fantasy inventions - they will split very quickly, a smart provocateur will say something like this - "yes, the thing is good, but she had such a drawback, and it will cling to a real drawback and then start to inflate it and in every possible way to push out a foreign analogue devoid of this drawback, while the real advantages of the thing under discussion will be hushed up, as well as the real shortcomings of a foreign analogue, as a result, people with little knowledge of the topic will have the opinion the provocateur needs, in the case of FECO, a stupid attempt to use a drill as they used to on the Maidans and others gatherings.
                2. Smart Troll will not rub the account after it has been bitten through, without touching the old one it will create a new one and take into account the places where it failed.
                3. A smart Troll will first study the subject, and a stupid and lazy couple will lick a couple of articles on Wik and will consider them to be a connoisseur.
                4. Smart Troll will not hide the flag of Ukraine by replacing it with the flag of the USSR, but simply enter through the Russian proxy server with automatic registration on the VO of the Russian IP.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  34. 0
    25 August 2015 00: 35
    Quote: abubakarovbutta
    What about the use of armor-piercing cartridges. As, for example, GSh-18 or SR-1 pistols. In my opinion, this aspect is also important for special forces assault groups.


    Of course it is important. No one denies. Just need to make a reservation that even a locksmith does not go to work with one screwdriver. Somewhere we need armor-piercing, somewhere covered. Somewhere tracing, light noise, etc. It depends on what the task is.

    I quite often have to communicate with these people. I can say for sure that it is not just stupid, and even people with average abilities are not taken. There, the guys are all clever, who, along the way, quickly know how to decide which "key" to open the next door.

    That is, they are not academic professors. This is a specific type of personality. They have a fairly broad horizons and a set of knowledge useful for their work. But most importantly, they should have the ability to think quickly in the presence of extraneous distractions. And they always have a strong mindset to fulfill the task. For them, this is the main sign of professional suitability. That is, if it hurts, the arm and leg are torn off, they should achieve their goal and, if possible, survive and help their team survive.

    In this regard, I spoke separately with some of the most experienced of them just on the topic of "Special-purpose pistol". I was given several requirements on their part, which the pistol must satisfy. Besides reliability, accuracy. It goes without saying.

    It was about their specific requirements. So, they told me that, provided that the fighter takes one arm and partly the fingers on the other hand, they all the same must somehow cock the bolt, send the cartridge and be able to shoot with fingers that lack the phalanx, for example.

    And so far, experts at the old school pistol have no favorite pistol.
    1. -2
      25 August 2015 08: 07
      Quote: strelok-54
      And while the specialists of the old school pistol have no favorite pistol

      Yeah. These are just "specialists" of your level. Once they like the APS.
  35. 0
    25 August 2015 11: 13
    Quote: SEC
    Quote: strelok-54
    not worthy of our attention.

    You pull up, worthy. They don’t know the basics, but to discuss everything there.


    And you will notice how many people have put you cons. It turns out that you are the smartest among your mother.
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 11: 27
      Quote: strelok-54
      And you will notice how many people have put you cons.

      Yes, I noticed that one has to deal with cultural enlightenment and educational program among the ungrateful public.
      Quote: strelok-54
      It turns out that you are the smartest among your mother.

      Thanks, of course.
      But here it is not in the mind, but in literacy. In a fairly narrow area. The vast majority of people do not need literacy in this area. You, for example, as I understand it.
      But there are still smart people. They are aware of their illiteracy in this area and do not engage in idle talk. Which for literate people in this area just looks ridiculous.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  36. 0
    25 August 2015 11: 16
    Quote: SEC
    Quote: strelok-54
    And while the specialists of the old school pistol have no favorite pistol

    Yeah. These are just "specialists" of your level. Once they like the APS.


    You don’t even have to frown at such a troll. He himself dishonors himself with every phrase.
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 11: 35
      Quote: strelok-54
      You don’t even have to frown at such a troll. He himself dishonors himself with every phrase.

      And it says to me the people who offered a little higher squander the breech (at the gun !!!) chambered for smaller diameter.
      And also equip the police with weapons with EXPANSIVE bullets. Those that are prohibited by the Hague and Geneva conventions. What can I say, "great humanist". Or "literate"?
    2. The comment was deleted.
  37. 0
    25 August 2015 12: 21
    Quote: SEC

    And it says to me the people who offered a little higher squander the breech (at the gun !!!) chambered for smaller diameter.


    Have you ever thought about the fact that in addition to the size "width" there is also the size "length"? In general, have you ever seen 9x18 and 9x19 cartridges alive?
    If the diameter of the chamber is not necessary to bore, then what about the length? Don't need it too? Make me laugh further, clown.
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 13: 20
      Quote: strelok-54
      Make me laugh further, clown.

      Directly guess my thoughts about you.
      Quote: strelok-54
      If the diameter of the chamber is not necessary to bore, then what about the length?

      Anything can be squandered if at least 1 parameter MORE source. And while there is not a single smaller parameter. You authoritatively suggested a larger option to squander into a smaller one. And this is ridiculous.
  38. 0
    25 August 2015 15: 03
    Quote: angel of hell
    I handed over not to Novosibirsk and did not register in the "local" one.

    But what about the statement about instruction in Novosibirsk? or without registration immediately appointed instructor?
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 17: 25
      Here are the people!
      I am an instructor and "work" for myself and my "office". Works above the roof (along the profile) and do not offend myself.
      That's just about the norms of positivity, again, do not ...! I heard that there is such, but no more.
      1. 0
        31 August 2015 16: 06
        Quote: Hell Angel
        I am an instructor and "work" for myself and my "office".

        Well, yes, the Claudia from such "labor" simply cannot withstand ... In the municipal "office".
  39. 0
    28 August 2015 18: 57
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    Glock-17 lies well in the hand, it is convenient to aim, but it throws the barrel very well when shooting from it, it’s hard to get at a distance of more than 10 meters, from the cz-75 it is much more accurate and easier to hit the target. To shoot well from Glock, you need to shoot 50 shots at least once a month. No barrel can stand it, the investigator but you need to buy more than one per employee.


    I don’t agree with the fact that Glock is comfortable in the hand. Compared to other pistols, it has outdated ergonomics. I can write down the points, but this is the topic of a separate article. Just take the GP K-100 or S @ WM @ P as an example. However, people’s hands are different ... Maybe your Glock lies well. No problem.

    I also disagree with the statement that you need to shoot 50 shots per month in order to confidently hit any targets. To learn how to do this, for starters, you need 200-500 rounds per week for the first six months to a year. Then, to maintain form, two workouts of 100 shots per week.

    But you said that with 50 shots per month, Glock will not live long. It is not right. Glock's resource, while it normally hits the target, is about 100 shots. That is, at the pace of training you proposed, one pistol is enough for 000 months or about 2000 years.

    But the actual resource, as shown by resource tests at Glock, can reach up to 250 shots. That is, one person for several lives is enough Glock, even with regular training.
  40. 0
    11 September 2015 16: 13
    Verum (2) RU September 8, 2015 07:42 ↑
    Quote: angel of hell
    And I don’t have anything to prove to you.
    Of course you do not have to, the Internet - the garbage can be lied to and dirtied as much as you like.
    Quote: angel of hell
    I try to write in "human" language, so maybe "shoals".
    You, "dear", jambs in the testimony and not in grammar. Today one, tomorrow another.
    Quote: angel of hell
    The institute is engaged in retraining and special forces. And ROSN is going to shoot at the institute’s training center, equipped with the latest words. But ROSNO is that?
    What is special forces studying there? The basics of jurisprudence, or game theory? They study there, not train! And ROSNO is autocorrect! And RUSN shoots at Gorki.

    Quote: angel of hell
    He is engaged in continuing education for regional DOS in three areas. There is a shooting range and a shooting range ..
    For example, these:

    Shooting range and shooting range in one bottle.
    Quote: angel of hell
    Conclusion You are an ordinary Troll. Therefore, a ban from me. About the trigger from AK was especially pleased .. Really? Looks like the eyes hurt if you ban! And about the trigger, the riveting on the rail, when it was not a defect, read the repair manual! Expert, damn it ...
    Here's a banned hoopoe, one h.ren climbs! Hoopoe, do you have "what release of information"?
    And about the trigger, the riveting on the rail, when it was not a defect, read the repair manual! Connoisseur
    pancake...

    Has anyone seen this in old AKs? I don't, but "hoopoe", there are probably a lot on the Internet.
    Guys who are in the subject of Novosibirsk, explain to the "hoopoe" that he is a "hoopoe". Someone I'm blue today.
  41. 0
    12 September 2015 02: 20
    Quote: angel of hell
    That banned hoopoe, one h.ren climbs! Hoopoe, you have "what release of information"?

    You weren't taught to communicate well? Or does your lie really hurt? Especially when you posted a photo of the trigger from the "Saiga MK" to show and spoil the reliability of a military weapon that you have never seen before. And which of us is the named bird? You "dear"! They did not even pay attention to the photo of a blank USM AK-103, constantly repeating about the 100% presence of such weapons in your unit.

    It turns out that you are an elementary liar calling himself a veteran of those actions about which you know only from the press.
    Quote: angel of hell
    Guys who are in the subject of Novosibirsk, explain to the "hoopoe" that he is a "hoopoe".
    And on this topic you can talk to strelok-54, whom I did not deservedly offended and I apologize to him, he is a representative of your beloved RNOO "FPS NSO" in which you have never been seen as an instructor.
    Quote: angel of hell
    Someone I'm blue today.

    Do you drink often for a "professional" shooter, Mr. Drunken Troll?
  42. 0
    14 September 2015 13: 54
    Quote: Hell Angel
    Guys who are in the subject of Novosibirsk, explain to the "hoopoe" that he is a "hoopoe".

    Shoy somehow reminds the kindergarten - "Mary Vanna offends me ahhh!" -
    I’ll explain myself I can’t push anyone to understand the offender for me. Strange for a combat officer, isn't it? Although everything is really solved much easier - it’s enough to write I work there and there in such and such a position - because as my experience tells me, those who are forbidden to disclose this simply will not even even hint at specific places of service or even at belonging to one or another structure.
    The same applies to instructing in the Novosibirsk federation - "handed in the wrong place" - not where it is? What is a military secret?
    So in this case there is only one conclusion - you simply engage in artistic whistling, so it’s not that where you work, but you are afraid to even name what structure, because there are enough current and former employees who will split you up at once.
    1. 0
      14 September 2015 18: 28
      Quote: gross kaput
      Quote: Hell Angel
      Guys who are in the subject of Novosibirsk, explain to the "hoopoe" that he is a "hoopoe".

      Shoy somehow reminds the kindergarten - "Mary Vanna offends me ahhh!" -
      I’ll explain myself I can’t push anyone to understand the offender for me. Strange for a combat officer, isn't it? Although everything is really solved much easier - it’s enough to write I work there and there in such and such a position - because as my experience tells me, those who are forbidden to disclose this simply will not even even hint at specific places of service or even at belonging to one or another structure.
      The same applies to instructing in the Novosibirsk federation - "handed in the wrong place" - not where it is? What is a military secret?
      So in this case there is only one conclusion - you simply engage in artistic whistling, so it’s not that where you work, but you are afraid to even name what structure, because there are enough current and former employees who will split you up at once.

      Hello Sergey! This character "angel of hell" will never admit that he is lying! The tales he told in the comments are intended mainly for the public that is not in the "topic", such as young people who have not reached draft age or who are mowing down from the army, who do not know its realities. Here you don't even need to prick, a little bit of evidence can be extracted along the holivar with this character. Even I, not being a pro in this matter, noticed a lot of inconsistencies in straight cutting eyes. And the angel's childish excuses only confirm this. So this is an ordinary "orange" that could not achieve anything in real life, trying to bring its unknown "coolness" into the virtual ... Yes, let it, can it still help him to realize himself in real life? For example "padonok.71" seems to have realized his delusions and still does not appear on VO, at least with registration. And he was even "cooler" than the "angel of hell" ...
      1. 0
        21 September 2015 02: 45
        Quote: angel of hell
        Aha schazz !!! Gross You cop, do not "talk nonsense" If the skill was enough to trace to the "municipal office" I'm disappointed.
        Do you propose that he come to Novosibirsk? And talked to you for life? In nature, a juvenile "orange".
    2. 0
      20 September 2015 18: 06
      it’s enough to write I work there and there in such and such a position - for as my experience tells me, those who are forbidden to disclose it simply will not even even hint at anything, not only at specific duty stations, but even about belonging to one or another structure.
      Aha schazz !!! Gross You cop, do not "talk nonsense" If the skill was enough to trace to the "municipal office" I'm disappointed.
  43. 0
    28 September 2015 20: 50
    Quote: Hell Angel
    Aha schazz !!! Gross, you are a cop, do not "talk nonsense"

    Well, excuse me, in this matter I am far from a "veteran of five hot spots, a Baltic with a concussion on the whole head" Ts. K / f "DMB" laughing
    Quote: Hell Angel
    If the skill was enough to trace to the "municipal office" I am disappointed

    I’m not sleeping at night, I’m thinking everything, as it were, to track down the next commando of all military branches laughing
    Only for some reason, on the Hansa, this commando spoke about his belonging to military intelligence, but very quickly merged after uncomfortable questions, and the practical training instructor never looked into the profile branch of the Hansa, probably because they communicate there, including
    real practical shooting instructors? laughing
    Quote: Hell Angel
    don't "talk nonsense"
    but sorry, I completely forgot the enemy is not asleep, the talker is a find for a spy, etc. - secrecy! but we Sivolapy forgot something! You probably go to Syria are going to drive ISIS on the personal instructions of explosives? Well, yes, I am silent, silent, secrecy, this is my understand! laughing
    1. 0
      29 September 2015 07: 11
      Quote: gross kaput
      for some reason, this commando spoke about his belonging to military intelligence but very quickly merged after uncomfortable questions addressed to him

      By accident, not the one who was shell-shocked, suffered a massive blood loss after a bullet wound in the leg and a fragmentation in the groin on moral-volitional ones? laughing
  44. 0
    29 September 2015 12: 24
    Well, like that one with two concussions and a disability of 2 groups. laughing

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"