Tula Tokarev: man and gun

153
The TT pistol with technical characteristics surpassed its competitors and became the first mass system of this type in stories Russian weapons
Authoritative reference books on small arms, not only in Russia, but also abroad, always include a TT pistol (Tula, Tokarev) in the list of the best army pistols of the twentieth century. In the Soviet Union, the TT pistol was put into service in the 1931 year and served “faithfully” for about 30 years. In addition to the USSR, the TT pistol was in service in 30 countries. Even in Nazi Germany, the technical characteristics of the TT pistol were rated very high: all captured pistols were subject to mandatory surrender to technical-brigade teams, where they were shot, repaired and repaired, if necessary, by means of cleaning. Then, under the neck of Pistole-615 (r), they came to the Wehrmacht.

Today, "Totosha" (as sometimes called the TT in the middle of the 30-s) is very popular among fans of long-range aimed shots from a pistol, as well as among weapon collectors all over the world.

How the esaul became a gunsmith


The history of the TT pistol is inseparable from the uneasy bright biography of its creator - Fyodor Vasilyevich Tokarev. The unique combination of excellent combat performance, operational reliability and manufacturability, typical of "Totosh", could hardly have arisen in other design conditions - beyond Fyodor Tokarev's considerable personal combat experience.

Tula Tokarev: man and gun

Fedor Tokarev. Photo: rusfact.ru

The future gunsmith was born 2 (14) in June 1871 of the year in the village of Egorlyk Region of the Don Cossacks. As a teenager, little Fedor mastered the blacksmith's craft, was distinguished by a sincere burden to the metal.

In 1887, Tokarev enrolled in the Novocherkassk military-craft school, where his master was a gunsmith, the aesaul Vasiliy Chernolikhov. Tokarev's biographers note that it was Master Chernirihov who instilled true love into the future gunsmith, even a passion for design work.

Having completed, as noted in the description of the directorate, "with excellent diligence" study at the Novocherkassk military-craft school, Fyodor Tokarev was sent to complete the first phase of service in the 12 Don Cossack Regiment. In the 1900 year, successfully combining teaching and studying at the Novocherkassk Cossack School, Tokarev gets his first officer's rank - cornet. The time comes for the second line of the Cossack service, and the cornet of Tokarev again goes to the troops.

It is officially considered that the remarkable Russian armorer did not have a higher technical education. From a formal point of view, this is true. However, a kind of “higher technical education” was for the Cossack to study at the Officer Rifle School in the capital Oranienbaum, which included junior officers under the age of 45 years who had experience of commanding a company of at least two years.

In Oranienbaum, Fedor Tokarev made his debut as a weapon designer. The automatic rifle he created in the experimental workshop of the Officer’s school — equipped with the Mosin three-line mechanism — has earned the approval of the Weapons Division of the General Staff Artillery Committee. In the 1908 year, simultaneously with the assignment of the next Cossack rank of esaul, Fyodor Tokarev was seconded to the Sestroretsk Arms Plant. The Artillery Committee sets the task for the young gunsmith: to bring the model of an automatic rifle he created to the technological level of mass production.

To dream - through war and execution


In 1910, the first automatic model of Tokarev successfully passed the commission and field tests. At the request of the Artillery Committee, the War Ministry paid the Esau Saul Tokarev 1000 rubles of premium - a very significant amount for those times (300 – 350 rubles - the cost of a mounted horse).

In 1912, Tokarev sends a completely new model of an automatic rifle, which is not related to the original SI model, for testing. Mosin. Subsequently, this model was the basis for the Tokarev self-loading rifle (SVT-38, SVT-40), which was widely used by the Red Army in the first period of the Great Patriotic War.


The soldiers of the Red Army with rifles SVT-40. Photo: waralbum.ru

The Artillery Committee of the Military Ministry approved the further development of the new Tokarev product. At Sestroretsk plant received instructions: to make an experimental batch of 12 rifles. By July 1914, this order (with simultaneous debugging of the bolt group of weapons) was almost completed, but the outbreak of war prevented the completion of work.

During the First World War - from August 1914-th to January 1916 - Fedor Tokarev was in the army. At the head of the hundreds of 29 Don Cossack regiments, he fought bravely in Poland and Galicia on the Western and South-Western fronts. The command highly appreciated the military merits of Esaula Tokarev - five military orders, including the Order of St. Anna 4 degree with the inscription "For Bravery".

The October coup 1917 of the year catches Fedor Tokarev again at the Sestroretsk Arms Factory. Already with the rank of captain, he introduces the British technology of mass weapons production here. Despite the officer's rank, Tokarev initially managed to avoid the attention of vigilant commissioners. Moreover, in 1918, he was appointed head of the Exemplary Workshop, and then Assistant Director of the Sestroretsk Arms Plant.

Soon engineer Tokarev, who had hidden his Cossack origin, was seconded to restore the work of the Izhevsk Arms Plant after powerful anti-Bolshevik speeches.

By the arrival of Tokarev, an engineer in the city, Izhevsk represented ruins, both technologically and personnel. To restore the work of the ruined workshops to the dates indicated by Lev Trotsky, the Chief of the Red Army, seemed completely unrealistic. Nevertheless, Tokarev managed to start production of Mosin rifles practically out of nothing at Izhmash. However, the quality of these rifles could not go to any comparison with the pre-revolutionary level.

As a result, the military expert Tokarev was accused by the Cheka in “sabotage and sabotage”, and the Revolutionary Tribunal by a decision of August 30 of August 1920 sentenced the gunsmith to “an immediate punishment of revolutionary justice - to be shot”. However, the sentence was not carried out. The cause of the “mercy” manifested was an acute shortage of engineering personnel in the arms industry.

In the summer of 1921, Fyodor Tokarev managed to transfer from the defeated Izhevsk to Tula. Here, over the next 20 years, he successfully worked at the Tula Arms Plant (TOZ) as a lead designer, and then as the head of the Experimental Weapon Workshop. The Tula years of life became the time of the highest flourishing of the Cossack gunsmith, it was during this period that he became the recognized master of the Soviet weapons school and created his best models of small arms.

The birth of a Russian pistol

The uniqueness of the TT self-loading pistol, in addition to its technical characteristics, is that Totosha was the first mass system of this type in the history of Russian weapons.

The regular personal weapons of the fighters and commanders of the Red Army in the 1920s were revolvers of revolvers, which, with their outstanding quality as an aimed shot, were distinguished by an extremely archaic, very slow reloading operation. It was necessary to replace the revolver with a more modern type of personal weapon with a higher rate of fire. At the turn of the 1930-ies in all the armies of the West, excluding the army of Great Britain, only a self-loading pistol was recognized as the only system capable of replacing the revolver.


Gleb Zheglov shoots from "Nagan", a frame from the film "The meeting place can not be changed." Source: echo.msk.ru

In 1929, a competition was announced for the creation of a self-loading pistol to arm the commanders of the Red Army, which took place in two stages and ended in the autumn of 1930. During the competition, 17 pistols of various designs were tested. The Commission of the People's Commissariat of Defense assessed not only the samples of its main competitors - F.V. Tokarev, S.A. Korovin, S.A. Prilutsky, but also famous foreign pistols: 7,65-millimeter "Walter RR", 9-millimeter "Parabellum P-08", 9-millimeter "Browning M1922", 11,43-millimeter "Colt M1911" and others.

Field tests revealed the superiority of an TT eight-shot pistol in all basic tactical and technical characteristics. Fyodor Tokarev's considerable combat experience allowed him to create a system of short-barreled weapons with a unique range of an aimed shot. According to this important indicator, only the German “Mauser C-96” was able to make up the competition for the Tokarev system, which has a longer barrel length and significantly worse balance than the TT.

“The 7,62-mm automatic pistol of the Tokarev system,” the Red Army Chief of Arms Weapons Ieronim Uborevich reported to the People's Commissariat of Defense, “turned out to be the best of the domestic samples that are not inferior in terms of reliability of operation and ease of handling of foreign pistols.” Uborevich requested a serial order of Tokarev pistols for military trials. The day after the report, February 13 1931, the USSR Revolutionary Military Council decided to mass-produce 1000 pistols of this system for transfer to the troops. This day can rightfully be considered the date of birth of the first Russian army pistol. According to the place of creation and the names of the designer, he received the honorary title “Tula, Tokarev”.

A unique combination of grace and power


The son of the famous gunsmith Paul Mauser, who became an outstanding industrialist of the Third Reich, having familiarized himself with the bench test results in 1941, was sincerely delighted with the technical characteristics of the TT pistol. “The only Russian Tokarev,” exclaimed Mauser Jr., “managed to contain so much power and death in this small space bounded by the elegant contour of his gun!” One cannot but agree with this characteristic of the TT.

In the elegance of form, in some incredible proportionality of all the details, perhaps, only the “Browning М1903” - the best of the pistols of the great John Moses Browning - can compete with the model of Fyodor Tokarev. The external similarity of the design of the TT and the Browning M1903 often gives grounds for reasoning that the Russian gunsmith copied the gun of the famous American. These arguments have nothing to do with reality.


Browning M 1903. Photo: browning.com

In constructive terms, “Tula, Tokarev” is a kind of synthesis of the modified system of the Colt M1911 pistol, some elements of the “cartridge group” of the Mauser C-96 pistol and the exterior design of the M1903 Browning. The ideology of the TT pistol, thus, combined in this product all the best that at that time the world’s weapon thought had accumulated in terms of designing short-barreled military weapons.

The TT pistol can by no means be called a “copy product” - in the brainchild of Fyodor Tokarev there are quite a lot of completely original assemblies and parts. For example, the placement of a cylindrical fighting spring inside the trigger. And for ease of maintenance of the gun, the designer assembled all the parts of the firing mechanism in the same block. The entire USM node in Totosh can be removed for cleaning and lubrication without the use of special tools. Such a device at the time of setting on the TT did not have any army gun in the world.

In the literature one can sometimes come across complaints that the TT pistol doesn’t have a “full-fledged fuse”. The installation of such a mechanism on the pistol was not difficult, but the gunsmith believed that the combat platoon system of the firing mechanism should be constructively focused on the constant readiness of the weapon for an instant shot.

"Tula, Tokarev" showed both on the range, and in combat conditions high accuracy. Along with a fairly long aiming bar (156 mm), this was facilitated by several successful design solutions. For example, to reduce the dispersion of bullets in the TT design, it was possible to achieve a good smoothness of the descent. Trigger pull on Totoshi is within 2,4 – 2,8 kg, exceeding the corresponding parameters of the “main competitor” - the German Mauser C-96. "Totosha" possessed one of the highest initial bullet speeds for such 30 – 40-s weapons of the XX century. Depending on the cartridge used, it reached 420 – 450 m / s, which ensured the flatness of the shot and the reliable defeat of enemy manpower at a distance of up to 75 meters.


Junior Political Commander Alexei Eremenko leads the soldiers to the attack with a TT pistol. Photo: Max Alpert / RIA News

The energy of the shot (that is, the ratio of muzzle energy to the mass of the weapon) did not leave any chances to the TT competitors. “Totosha” showed the energy of the shot within 597 – 599 J / kg, the German “Mauser C-96” - 432 J / kg, “Parabellum R.08” - 461 J / kg, the main US Army Colt M1911 pistol - 410 J / kg

“Tula, Tokarev” remained in the memories of all the front-line soldiers as a very tenacious, reliable in work and, very importantly, easy-to-use weapon.

Long years of impeccable service

The fate of the TT has developed happily. This pistol went into mass production in the 1933 year, and was used as a service weapon in the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union right up to the beginning of the 1960s. In law enforcement, "Totosha" was in service for a dozen years longer.

In the pre-war years, the issue of TT was carried out only by the Tula Arms Plant. At the end of 1941, due to the siege by German troops in Tula and the evacuation of the plant, the production of a pistol at TOZ was temporarily suspended. To compensate for combat losses, the release of the TT by the end of 1942, the year mastered in Izhevsk. During its existence, almost without changing the technical characteristics of the TT pistol, the weapon has undergone several modifications. The latest serial TT appeared in 1951 year, shortly before the cessation of production. Visually, later-issue pistols differ from 40's products in a simplified, smaller notch on the bolt. In total, in the Soviet Union, according to military experts, from 1930 to 1952 a year was made about 1 million 740 thousand TT pistols of various modifications.
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  1. +26
    16 August 2015 05: 53
    "... was used as a service weapon in the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union until the early 1960s ..." - your lies! In 1984-1985, the Steppe station, Transbaikalia, TT are standard weapons in many parts of the 30 adib. Always better shot from the TT than from the PM.
    1. +11
      16 August 2015 06: 32
      Quote: avia12005
      In 1984-1985, the Step station, Transbaikalia, TT - standard weapons in many parts of 30 adib

      I will add- to 2007 in some police units (at least in our city of Irkutsk), they began to issue TT instead of PM.
      True, as things are now, I don’t know.
      1. +17
        16 August 2015 10: 07
        As in the police - I don't know, but when I was working in the militarized guard of the Ministry of Railways "TT" they were in service, as well as "RN". I had a "TT" in 1954, and "Nagans" came across in 1896, and only officers, double action. The newest "Nagant" was 1944.
        And the TT is a great car. It was more convenient for me to shoot from it than from the "PM", the result was always better. And the safety platoon solved the problem of the lack of a regular fuse without any problems.
        1. +3
          16 August 2015 17: 55
          In the Soviet Union, the TT pistol was adopted in 1931 and served "faithfully" for about 30 years.
          - from article

          I support those who wrote earlier that the TT pistol served significantly more than the indicated period.
          I myself, the ORAP aircraft technician, in the mid-70s, a TT pistol was assigned to the state.
          Compared to the "Makarov", which I had earlier and spoiled me with light weight and simplicity, the TT seemed much heavier and more complicated, and especially caused inconvenience with its "weight" in daily dress and when disassembling and cleaning weapons.
      2. +5
        16 August 2015 13: 55
        Quote: Corporal
        I will add- to 2007 in some police units (at least in our city of Irkutsk), they began to issue TT instead of PM.
        True, as things are now, I don’t know.

        In the 90's in RUBOP and SOBR, the TT was the second full-time pistol along with the PM, but now I also don’t know, retired already.
      3. 0
        28 October 2015 12: 24
        In the 95th year he was at an aerodrome practice on Belaya, Zima village. officers wore outfits with the TT. I remember saw, I was surprised (we only shot at the school with PM), I ask you for a TT? Yes it says. So TT longer than the author writes, was in service
    2. +4
      16 August 2015 13: 00
      He dragged himself from 1987 to the mid-90s. OBS and RTO Totsky. Then they switched to PM.
      1. +1
        17 August 2015 22: 57
        And what is OBS and RTO Totsky? Just in case, military unit 12128 at the same time 1988-91.

        Ah, I remembered. You provided pilots. And we are the RAV service of the above military unit.
    3. +5
      16 August 2015 13: 53
      Quote: avia12005
      In 1984-1985, the Steppe station, Transbaikalia, TT are standard weapons in many parts of the 30 adib. Always better shot from the TT than from the PM.

      I agree, he himself served in ZabVO in the MPR 83-85g. in the regiment of the officers were TT.
      1. +4
        16 August 2015 18: 14
        1981 year, the head of the RTS, he is the commander of the warhead 4 escort ship .... service weapon - TT pistol, year of manufacture 1944.
        Just something and held a couple of times in his hands. We took care of rarities. They shot from nothing, including the APS, and the APS was a special, four-barreled special ... but Tokarev was never able to shoot. Although BC was.
        Unclear.
        The machine is a beast.
        Decent unit.
    4. 0
      17 August 2015 22: 55
      I am joining. 1988 settlement Totsky - 2. The officers of the regiment have full-time TT.
  2. +7
    16 August 2015 06: 22
    Many TTs from stocks were converted into traumas - two "potholes" were made on the barrel with a press. My son has a pistol with a stamp of 1938.
    1. +8
      16 August 2015 10: 09
      Quote: Bayonet
      Many TTs from stocks were converted into injuries -

      What is characteristic - they are more expensive, but also better.
      Gleb Zheglov shoots from "Nagan", a shot from the film "The meeting place cannot be changed."

      And according to the book, Zheglov had a non-standard "Parabellum", something like that.
  3. +5
    16 August 2015 06: 25
    Well, now in the arsenal of the Federal Penitentiary Service in the zones and prisons at the end of the 90s there were many TTs scattered. only without operating instructions.
  4. +17
    16 August 2015 07: 47
    Good article, informative. It would be necessary to publish a whole cycle about Russian gunsmiths. Only one book has been published on this topic. German Nagaev "Russian gunsmiths".
    Small clarification. Esaul, captain, captain are one and the same. This rank was at the beginning of the 20th century in the 8th grade of the Table of Ranks. Orders for World War Anna 4th (for weapons) "For Bravery", Stanislav 3rd "with swords", Anna 3rd "with swords", Stanislav 2nd "with swords" and Vladimir 4th "with with swords "...
    1. 0
      30 December 2015 13: 50
      Quote: moskowit
      Good article, informative.

      controversial statement ... If in the first part of the article the facts of the biography known to everyone are really well processed, then a bunch of blunders began. Only one
      "Totosha" showed the energy of the shot within 597-599 J / kg, the German "Mauser S-96" - 432 J / kg
      shows that the author does not understand the issue. I hope there is no need to explain that having the same cartridge (including the weight of the bullet), the TT had a lower bullet speed, not dramatically, only a few meters, but less. As a result, the energy of the bullet was slightly less.
      And this is not the only blunder, but one of many. So for example, pistols under a cartridge other than 7,62x25 were presented at the competition for review, and no more ...
  5. +5
    16 August 2015 09: 10
    Soon engineer Tokarev, who had hidden his Cossack origin, was seconded to restore the work of the Izhevsk Arms Plant after powerful anti-Bolshevik speeches.
    ... According to the author, Tokarev was punished, the plant was sent to restore ...
    1. +2
      16 August 2015 14: 56
      Cossack origin, not Cossack. According to the recollections of people, Tokarev had a favorite saying: "Oh, yes, we are Cossacks!"
  6. +2
    16 August 2015 09: 54
    There is conflicting information about the day and place of birth of Fyodor Vasilyevich. According to some reports, he was born on June 2 (14), 1871 in the village of Yegorlykskaya, now Rostov Region. According to other sources, Fyodor Vasilyevich Tokarev was born in the village of Mechetinskaya, the Don region, on June 22, 1871. A street in the village of Mechetinskaya was named in honor of F.V. Tokarev.
    1. 0
      16 August 2015 15: 01
      Quote: Bayonet
      area
      is it in his birth metric or the province is divided into Rostov and Don. Or maybe: Rostov-on-Don - the city, the center of the Don district of the North Caucasus district.
  7. +4
    16 August 2015 09: 56
    When I picked up the first time I was very surprised by the short and thin pistol grip, how small my hand is, but even the grip was even smaller, as he sat in the palms of people stronger than a riddle, I don’t know how there is balance and so on (quite a layman in these issues) but if you increase the magazine to 10 rounds, and if you made it double-row it would be possible to improve the ergonomics, I understand that the weight and price of the product would increase, but again, the efficiency would increase, still the magazine is 19-20 rounds better than at 8, all the gunsmiths went this way (a large store capacity).
    1. +3
      17 August 2015 00: 29
      but increase the magazine to 10 rounds, and better by making it double-row it was possible to improve the ergonomics and increase the safety


      I join the question. Maybe knowledgeable people will tell why the 15-charge TT of 1942 of the Izhevsk Plant No. 74 did not go into mass production?
      1. +1
        19 August 2015 19: 03
        I can’t say with certainty, but perhaps the point is the cost of changes in production. 1944, the war is in full swing. Moreover, before the war, Voevodin’s 16 or 18 pistol was tested, which surpassed the TT in terms of performance and was recommended for military tests, but the war began and the project was frozen. Now the only copy available to the public is exhibited at the Museum of Artillery and Communications in St. Petersburg. Http://popgun.ru/files/g/36/thumbs/7743061.jpg
  8. -3
    16 August 2015 09: 59
    The author somehow gracefully bypassed the issue of ammunition for the TT pistol.
    It was Mauser’s cartridge 7,63mm, in the domestic version 7,62mm, that gave the TT pistol both high energy of the shot and high speed of the bullet, respectively, flatness and range.
    For some reason, only the Mauser 7,63mm is compared with the TT. Of course, it will lose both in balance and in the mass-dimensional characteristics, and in the convenience of reloading. And if you compare the STAR model 1922 with a TT gun. This is the Spanish version of the Colt of 1911, which was also produced in the caliber of 7,63 mm.

    Two questions arise: 1. Was it worth fencing a garden with a TT, which did not get rid of problems with reliability. In those days, they also bought more complex products: guns, tanks, planes, ships.
    Wouldn’t it be easier to purchase a license for a Spanish pistol under a 7,63mm cartridge.
    2. Was the "Rook" competition needed? Wasn't it easier to remake the TT. Both the Yugoslavs and Hungarians created their own, very successful versions of TT, including those chambered for 9mm * 19mm. The Belgians redesigned the 1935 HP, providing it with a double action trigger and a safe trigger lever.
    1. -4
      17 August 2015 23: 54
      Quote: ignoto
      It was Mauser’s cartridge 7,63mm, in the domestic version 7,62mm, that gave the TT pistol both high energy of the shot and high speed of the bullet, respectively, flatness and range.

      The TT cartridge itself is not a copy of the Mauser cartridge in 7,62 mm caliber. These are the tales of Internet shkolota, nothing more. Cartridge TT is a cartridge adapted (weakened) for Mauser Bolo. And at this Mauser-Bolo the trunk was 99 mm long. From this, the TT also has a shorter trunk (116 mm) relative to its counterparts using the more powerful Mauser cartridge.
      All together, it gave a disgusting energy. And nightmare effectiveness. And the tales about flatness and range, these are just the tales of the Soviet flood. The same POLICE STAR (and in the caliber 7,62 mm the world produced mainly police weapons) was much more powerful than the TT. For the army, the TT was no good at all. Because for cartridges of 9 mm caliber (actually 8,8 mm), the minimum power was taken at 500 J. And for cartridges in caliber 7,62 mm and so on, theoretically 700 J, otherwise it was impossible to obtain sufficient efficiency. But 700 Joules will dislocate the brush, so they did not make weapons for the army in this caliber. In addition to the illiterate USSR. The TT had 487 J. And the caliber was 7,62 mm. Just sucks.
      Quote: ignoto
      Wouldn’t it be easier to purchase a license for a Spanish pistol under a 7,63mm cartridge.

      Easier. But for the army it’s stupid, like a real TT. And yet TT had to be done. But under the cartridge 9x25 mm. Not Mauser Export, but 9x25 mm TT. Actually, there was a sleeve in production. It only remained to master the production of bullet. And pick up a powder mount, less than that of Mauser Export, which was too powerful for a gun. And already under this new cartridge to make a gun. And then a submachine gun. That would be a clear success. And so, it turned out squalor. Tumbled advice with him, and discontinued. They realized that they flew by. It is only the writers of such articles that still cannot understand this. So they write all the enthusiastic nonsense where it is necessary to cry.
    2. 0
      30 December 2015 14: 05
      Why was the person minus, after all, except for the 2nd point, he wrote almost everything correctly, or do you, as true hurray patriots, do not recognize criticism? Do you know that you can shoot from the Mauser with cartridges from TT and nothing will happen (in the west it is officially allowed by the manufacturer), but the other way around is impossible? The liner differs only in 1 mm in the length of the neck and in the groove for the ejector. And in fact, the TT is a "cheap" copy of the Colt1911, which is really just not comfortable to hold in your hand (held personally and shot, disgusting aiming, lack of a fuse), as it was whipped up. This led to the fact that already in 1936, just 3 years later, a new competition was appointed for an army pistol to replace the TT.
  9. 0
    16 August 2015 10: 13
    TT was adapted to our technology. The Spanish gun could not do other technologies. One of the reasons for the refusal of the TT was decided to switch to another cartridge since the population had a lot of weapons after the war.
    1. avt
      +1
      16 August 2015 18: 10
      Quote: timyr
      TT was adapted to our technology.

      Quote: Seamaster
      And the caliber of 7.62 mm for the Nagan revolver and TT pistol was chosen from the economy - defective trunks were used in the production in the production of three rulers: up to 50% of the trunks were rejected there.
      And they began to crawl out of this weapon-industrial poverty only somewhere before the Second World War and only thanks to the inhuman efforts of the "bloody commies".

      Quite right! As a result, it turned out like in Pushkin's fairy tale, which is our everything - "Wouldn't you pop for cheapness"! Only now we are switching to a full-fledged cartridge 9x19 Steam, on which the whole World practically began to fight the First World War.
      Quote: timyr
      . One of the reasons for the refusal of the TT was decided to switch to another cartridge since the population had a lot of weapons after the war.

      Delirium please bear. According to the experience of the war, they decided to switch from ersatz Browning-TT to the normal and optimal caliber for the pistol-9mm, but unsuccessfully - there was some kind of wise guy and a castrated cartridge for the PM appeared, which they only started to get rid of.
      1. -6
        16 August 2015 20: 22
        One of the reasons for the criminal population after the war is a bunch of weapons in their hands. Plus, TT stamped a bunch and lost a bunch of documentation numbers. So we decided to switch to a more powerful cartridge.
        1. +2
          17 August 2015 11: 37
          Quote: timyr
          One of the reasons for the criminal population after the war is a bunch of weapons in their hands. Plus, TT stamped a bunch and lost a bunch of documentation numbers. So we decided to switch to a more powerful cartridge.

          You tie up with heavy chemistry.
        2. 0
          18 August 2015 00: 08
          Quote: timyr
          So we decided to switch to a more powerful cartridge.

          Power TT 487 J. Power PM 303 J. Guess which is more powerful. wink
          That's right, TT. And more effective PM. Because of its caliber. Although both the army and the other were not suitable.
      2. +4
        17 August 2015 11: 36
        Quote: avt
        Only now we are moving to a full 9x19 cartridge of the Couple, on which the whole World has almost begun to fight the First World War.

        The whole world is sorry who? USA - .45 ACP, .455 British, Belgians 9x17, French 7.65mm Longue, Italians 9x17 Browning, 7.65x17 Browning, Japs - 8x22 mm Nambu, Spaniards 9x23mm (9mm Largo), Czechs 9X17, Hungarians 9X17, it's easier to say where in That period (late 20s early 30s) were in service as the main samples of pistols under 9X19 - Germany, Finland and Sweden - here it is your "whole world". The 9X19 began to gain popularity after WWII in its 50-60s.
        Quote: avt
        there was still some kind of wise guy and a castrated cartridge for PM appeared

        This wise guy is called - the experience of warfare from 1941 to 1945, and the decision to switch to a new cartridge and a pistol was made absolutely right at that time, but the fact that at present there are smart people who believe that in modern conditions the cartridge is weak means 70 years ago they made a mistake - well, so this is the problem of these clever people.
        1. -1
          18 August 2015 00: 24
          Quote: gross kaput
          9X19 began to gain popularity after WWII in its 50-60 years.

          Gunpowder "matured" to the volume of the case. In addition, body armor appeared. Together, this made the Para cartridge the main army pistol cartridge.
          Quote: gross kaput
          the experience of warfare from 1941 to 1945, and the decision to switch to a new cartridge and pistol for it was made absolutely right at that time

          Absolutely wrong. Because the caliber is correct and the volume of the sleeve is small. The minimum allowable sleeve in those days for the army was the Browning Long sleeve. And the PM sleeve for those brands of gunpowder, this is just nonsense.
          Quote: gross kaput
          currently there are smart people who believe that since in modern conditions the cartridge is rather weak, then 70 years ago they made a mistake

          Over the past 70 years, the human structure has not changed. That's why "modern conditions" haven't changed either. As the PM was weak, it remained. PMM (another, modern gunpowder) is not bad. But shooting is expensive.
          1. -1
            18 August 2015 12: 37
            Quote: 190815
            In addition, body armor appeared.

            For cool specialists, I’ll explain that in the database, BZ of grades 5-6 are used according to our classification to destroy a carcass in such a bronic, neither 9X18 nor 9X19 nor 7,62X25 have any chances, when shooting at unprotected parts of the carcass at the real range of a shot from a pistol, there is a significant difference between 9X18 and 9X19 there is no, but the weapon under 9X18 is lighter and simpler because it works on the principle of recoil of the free shutter.
            Quote: 190815
            And the PM sleeve for those brands of gunpowder, this is just nonsense.

            What "those brands" - would you bother to list?
            Especially for large experts, I’ll explain - according to the experience of WWII, our military made quite reasonable conclusions on the weapon system 1 - the adoption of weapons as the main model of weapons under an intermediate cartridge with the abolition of rifles and infantry in the infantry.
            2. since the PP dropped out of the armament system, there was no need for cartridges that were excessively powerful for the pistols, because they could not realize their characteristics in terms of firing range due to the specifics of aimed firing from the pistol, as a result, they settled on three 7,65X17 cartridges, 9X17 or on the newly designed 9X18, the latter is known to have won.
            Quote: 190815
            Therefore, the "modern conditions" have not changed either.

            They changed, with the emergence of a niche for PP in modern militarized structures of the Russian Federation, the need arose for more powerful cartridges than PM's for them, tales about penetrating armor which hypothetically could be on criminals remained tales - I have never seen a B / C seized from a criminal G.
            1. -1
              18 August 2015 22: 49
              Quote: gross kaput
              Based on WWII experience, our military made quite reasonable conclusions on the weapon system

              Perhaps the Icelandic experts made the right conclusions. But Soviet, no. Therefore, the freak PM came to the hay TT. And just now they thought up to PY. True, I had to buy equipment. For the production of a new sleeve.
              Quote: gross kaput
              but weapons under 9X18 are easier and simpler because it works on the principle of recoil of the free shutter.

              This is an invented advantage. A horse is also easier and cheaper to ride than a car. Only you will not go far.
              Quote: gross kaput
              tales about breaking through bronikov which hypothetically may be on criminals remained tales

              Actually, we were talking about the army and army weapons.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          30 December 2015 14: 27
          Quote: gross kaput
          The whole world is sorry who? USA - .45 ACP, .455 British, Belgians 9x17, French 7.65mm Longue, Italians 9x17 Browning, 7.65x17 Browning, Japs - 8x22 mm Nambu, Spaniards 9x23mm (9mm Largo), Czechs 9X17, Hungarians 9X17, it's easier to say where in That period (late 20s early 30s) were in service as the main samples of pistols under 9X19 - Germany, Finland and Sweden - here it is your "whole world". The 9X19 began to gain popularity after WWII in its 50-60s.

          it was about caliber 9mm or more. On your list, only 3 out of 10 are smaller. You look at the essence, and not find fault with the letter.
          Quote: gross kaput
          This wise guy is called - the experience of warfare from 1941 to 1945, and the decision to switch to a new cartridge and a pistol was made absolutely right at that time, but the fact that at present there are smart people who believe that in modern conditions the cartridge is weak means 70 years ago they made a mistake - well, so this is the problem of these clever people.

          this cartridge was created according to one main criterion - use in a pistol with a free bolt, and not the combat effectiveness of the ammunition. This is originally a police cartridge, not an army one. And this is precisely the main mistake in adopting it.
      3. 0
        18 August 2015 00: 03
        Quote: avt
        but unsuccessfully - some kind of wise guy was found and a castrated cartridge for PM appeared, which they only started to get rid of.

        Well no. The cartridge is normal. But for their own purposes. Do not forget that the prototype of the PM was Walter PP. PP, this is a polysypistol. Nice police gun. But who had the idea that a police pistol would be good in the army, it is not clear. Probably the same "strategist" who decided to make TTs in 7,62 mm caliber. Two boots, sneakers.
        Well, at least now, little by little, they are switching to PY. Good army a gun, by the way.
      4. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      30 December 2015 14: 16
      Quote: timyr
      TT was adapted to our technology. The Spanish gun could not do other technologies.

      And what is the Belgian technology of 1910 better than our 1933th? Colt1911 was developed by Browning back in 1910 and was sold to Colt and manufactured in the United States. And the Spaniards used Colt under the 9x23 cartridge, they just put another barrel in there, it seems like I don’t even need to change the store (I don’t remember exactly).
      Quote: timyr
      One of the reasons for the refusal of the TT was decided to switch to another cartridge since the population had a lot of weapons after the war.
      To remake a TT under 9x19, it’s enough to change the trunk. Just TT himself showed himself very poorly. And 7,62 turned out to be a small caliber for military weapons.
  10. -5
    16 August 2015 10: 41
    Legs are stretched on clothes.
    Well, there was no arms industry in Russia / USSR then
    There were some semi-handicraft industries (like the producers of Afghan and Pakistani "Kalash") with semi-literate workers.
    It is humanitarians-fuckers who describe "Russia we have lost."
    And in kind, the armament was a NAGAN-Mosin rifle, a NAGAN revolver, machine guns MAXIM, COLT, LEWIS and SCHOSH, armored cars were brought from England and only sheathed with iron in Russia.
    About the fleet and aviation - only tears.
    Chemistry - imports, gunpowder - almost all imports.
    Brass for cartridges was purchased everywhere except Antarctica.
    By the way, rifles and machine guns are the same.
    And the caliber of 7.62 mm for the Nagan revolver and TT pistol was chosen from the economy - defective trunks were used in the production in the production of three rulers: up to 50% of the trunks were rejected there.
    And they began to crawl out of this weapon-industrial poverty only somewhere before the Second World War and only thanks to the inhuman efforts of the "bloody commies".
    1. +5
      16 August 2015 15: 11
      Quote: Seamaster
      NAGAN-Mosin rifle

      Mosin created his own rifle, if he applied a cut-off from the Nagant rifle, then this does not give him the right to be present in the name of the Mosin rifle. Dektyarev creates an excellent light carbine chambered for Nagant, which received a good rating from Fedorov, but was never able to drag it through to testing. Nikolashka did not believe at all that a Russian person could invent and design something, and therefore nothing from Russian gunsmiths even orally reached the tsar. By the way: in the West, the Nagant is called the "Russian revolver".
      1. -3
        18 August 2015 01: 55
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        Dektaryov creates a beautiful light carbine under the Nagan cartridge, which received a good mark from Fedorov, but could not drag it before the tests

        PPC. For starters, under a pistol (revolver) cartridge, a carbine cannot be created. The carbine (carbine) shoots either with native (carbine) cartridges. Or rifle. Then it's a short rifle. B that, and another is translated into Russian, as a carbine.
        So Tokarev, not Degtyarev, made a samopal (he called it a submachine gun). And who is Fedorov? What did this "noble figure" do, who highly appreciated Tokarev's self-propelled gun?
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        Mosin created his rifle if he used the Nagan rifle cut-off

        There was only a shutter from Mosin. And the development of manufacturing technology.
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        in the West, Nagant is called "Russian revolver"

        What are you talking about?
      2. 0
        27 November 2015 09: 50
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        Dektaryov creates a beautiful lightweight carbine chambered for Nagan

        DeKtyarev? Oh well.
        I also somehow created an excellent slingshot using the paving method. And he could wonderfully hit the enemy out of it. If I had hit him in the eye. Exactly the same can be done from the "fine light carbine chambered for the Nagant". Defeat the enemy. If you hit him in the eye.
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        received good marks from Fedorov

        And my slingshot also received excellent marks from Matryona's grandmother, who often sits on a bench near the entrance. The level of these "expert assessments" is quite comparable. Grandmother Matryona in her life did not create a single sample of weapons. Therefore, according to this indicator, it is in strict zero.
        But with Fedorov it is more difficult. What he "created" throws him into the negative zone. So it turns out that my "expert" is cooler. And the "product", too. Maybe it will be adopted?
    2. +5
      17 August 2015 11: 53
      Quote: Seamaster
      NAGANA-Mosina

      Share what is hidden from Nagan? So the mosquito is called only in the west, and for some reason the Springfield mattresses themselves 1903 are not strange that the Springfield Mauser is not called.
      Quote: Seamaster
      rejected up to 50% of the trunks

      A link to a document in the studio - or are you just another internet dumbbell? Yes, in the Republic of Ingushetia and then in the USSR, with the production of weapons and equipment, in general, it was far from industrial powers, but there was no need to exaggerate and smear everything with shit.
    3. 0
      18 August 2015 00: 28
      Quote: Seamaster
      TT pistol was chosen from savings

      The caliber TT was chosen for the Soviet cartridge for Mauser-Bolo. Three-ruler is not necessary here.
      Quote: Seamaster
      And from this weapons-industrial rogue people began to crawl only somewhere before the Second World War

      And can you give examples of high-tech (not beggarly) products of those times?
    4. +2
      18 August 2015 07: 32
      Less to you from me. Fedorov represented his assault rifle even before the First World War, but the tsar refused to take it into service, saying that this thing was spent in ammunition in batches. And the Communists considered machine guns to be the weapons of the police state. Everything was, and technology and production. And Mendeleev still calculated the secret of smokeless gunpowder by simply counting freight cars with raw materials in France. And the development of weapons in Russia is hindered by those officials who believe that we have a lot of people, women still give birth. In this, Nikolai was basically no different from Trotsky. Kulik still remember. hi Seamaster
      1. 0
        27 November 2015 09: 26
        Fedorov’s machine gun is basically an automatic rifle. That is precisely what the Communists did and SVD and SVT.
        1. 0
          27 November 2015 09: 59
          Quote: Barboskin
          Fedorov’s machine gun is basically an automatic rifle.

          AF, this is a weakly powerful carbine rifle (TTX) on an intermediate cartridge. This phrase in itself means a design failure. Because the cartridge used is more powerful than the final product (assault rifles are made on intermediate cartridges, not submachine guns). There is nothing further to comment on.
          Quote: Barboskin
          This is exactly what the communists did and SVD and SVT

          This is not an automatic, but a semi-automatic (semi-automatic) weapon.
  11. +6
    16 August 2015 10: 49
    And, by the way, the TT, of course, was not the best compared to imported pistols.
    But he was at close combat characteristics SIMPLY and CHEAPER.
    Just like the AK-47 and G-36, or the T-34 and the Panther.
    And only this one was suitable for the then Red Army, in which 20% of the soldiers were LITERATURE, and 7 classes plus cavalry courses - was a GREATLY good education for division commanders.
    For example, the soldiers of the Red Army threw SVT-40 and took the mosinka because the "light" HAS TO BE CLEANED, but not the mosinka.
    I repeat - legs are stretched over clothes.
    1. +7
      16 August 2015 11: 25
      Quote: Seamaster
      they threw the SVT-40 and took the mosinka because the "light" HAD TO BE CLEANED, but the mosinka - no.


      I do not agree .... for that matter, then any weapon must ALWAYS be cleaned !!! As you are to it, so is it to you.
      1. +8
        16 August 2015 15: 14
        "Svetka" did not have to be cleaned, but it was necessary to take care of it and be able to regulate the outlet of powder gases into the gas chamber depending on the weather and temperature.
        1. +4
          17 August 2015 00: 35
          "Svetka" did not have to be cleaned, but it was necessary to take care of it and be able to regulate the outlet of powder gases into the gas chamber depending on the weather and temperature.


          And most importantly, the most forgotten thing - the SVT-40 was more expensive in the purchase than the Degtyarev machine gun. During the war, it was a sentence.
    2. +3
      17 August 2015 15: 13
      Quote: Seamaster
      But he was at close combat characteristics SIMPLY and CHEAPER.

      Can you argue? Although I think it’s unlikely, from the posts it’s clear that the amateur man and even the TT saw only the picture, not to mention the comparison of his peers with foreign pistols.
      Quote: Seamaster
      For example, fighters of the Red Army threw SVT-40 and took a mosin

      A link to a document in the studio - no sho? not surprisingly, these bikes have been walking around the tyrnet for a long time, but the real story of SVT is somewhat different, the vast majority of them were in the western districts by the beginning of the war - remind you about the losses of the Red Army L / S as well as equipment and weapons in the first months of the war? The fact that the release of SVT since 1942. began to roll up does not yet say that the rifle was bad and the reason why on the conveyor it was again replaced by a mosinka in another - only for those who picked up inches, they did not know about it, as well as that this rifle, which was "thrown and exchanged for a mosinka" was released before 1945
    3. -3
      18 August 2015 00: 40
      Quote: Seamaster
      For example, the soldiers of the Red Army threw SVT-40 and took the mosinka because the "light" HAS TO BE CLEANED, but not the mosinka.

      Any weapon must be cleaned. And the SVT was thrown because they quickly failed. Gentlemen, red, the designer has never been able to invent the configuration of the hole for the intake of gases from the barrel. As a result, in SVT, the bolt quickly broke the receiver, and on the return stroke, the chamber. It was stupid to regulate the gas outlet, because the hole diameter was constantly changing. Therefore, he was always kept at the maximum. Quite reasonable, but sovagitprop called such Red Army men "illiterate." I would have looked at these helluva lot of competent propagandists, how they would regulate SVT if they were to be shoved into the trenches.
      Degtyarev solved this issue by strengthening and making the details heavier. As a result, his automatic rifle became known as "machine gun". Although in reality DP is not a machine gun, it is an automatic rifle (see performance characteristics). Tokarev could not, then his rifle would have become as heavy as the DP. Only Kalashnikov "solved" the problem. Having previously familiarized yourself with the German assault rifles, of course. And, of course, he got to know them just like that. Nothing in common ...
    4. +3
      18 August 2015 07: 52
      Quote: Seamaster
      And, by the way, the TT, of course, was not the best compared to imported pistols.
      But he was at close combat characteristics SIMPLY and CHEAPER.
      Just like the AK-47 and G-36, or the T-34 and the Panther.
      And only this one was suitable for the then Red Army, in which 20% of the soldiers were LITERATURE, and 7 classes plus cavalry courses - was a GREATLY good education for division commanders.
      For example, the soldiers of the Red Army threw SVT-40 and took the mosinka because the "light" HAS TO BE CLEANED, but not the mosinka.
      I repeat - legs are stretched over clothes.

      Do you know that the General Staff Academy was considered the best in Europe? Mannerheim taught all that riding there.
  12. RRR
    +10
    16 August 2015 11: 28
    Quote: ignoto
    Was it worth fencing a garden with a TT, which did not get rid of problems with reliability. In those days, they bought more complex products: guns, tanks, planes, ships


    You can immediately see the patriot of his homeland.
    Son! And how will you protect her if you have to.
    Do you buy weapons from the enemy to fight him?

    Your thoughts , one can also see age - no higher than high school.
    Nothing, life will be wiped out, shallow ...
    1. +5
      16 August 2015 13: 02
      Truth to say - unpatriotic? And youth, she goes through the years. Only now a fool for old age does not become a sage, but simply an OLD fool
    2. +2
      19 August 2015 16: 21
      It is not patriotic to force industry to invest extra money in projects before the war that can be taken and copied ready-made with minor changes.
      I also believe that patriotism in the ability to give the motherland weapons at the lowest cost.
      As for the "patriotism" of the TT pistol, the principle of the lowest design costs is implemented there. Appearance and locking system - a complete copy of Browning 1903. USM - a partial copy with some modernization. TT is not a unique project. Take the time to find a sectional view of the Browning 1903 device. The goods did the right thing, that he made a compilation of well-known proven designs, and did not fence the garden.
  13. +4
    16 August 2015 12: 03
    In 1987, at the Far East, he saw a TT from a warrant officer - partly uniform.
  14. +2
    16 August 2015 12: 35
    Quote: gla172
    Quote: Seamaster
    they threw the SVT-40 and took the mosinka because the "light" HAD TO BE CLEANED, but the mosinka - no.


    I do not agree .... for that matter, then any weapon must ALWAYS be cleaned !!! As you are to it, so is it to you.

    Read the memoirs, they write SVT unreliable weapons, because you need to clean, but this was not taught. In the navy, where the culture was higher, since they were more technically savvy, they used and praised them until the end of the war, while the former peasants didn’t even explain to them in the army that the gas regulator should be cleaned and tightened under each batch of cartridges so that there would be no misfires. Because they themselves did not know how and did not teach.
    1. 0
      17 August 2015 15: 18
      timyr Have you ever seen SVT? not to mention shooting, the regulator needs to be cleaned, but set to 1,3 or 1,5 it quite normally chews cartridges with bullets of different mass from 9 to 13 and with different brands of gunpowder (Barnaul still pours VT, Novosib in " increased accuracy "import).
      1. +1
        17 August 2015 17: 52
        You read at least Wikipedia. This is now with the standards cartridges. And during the war, the gunpowder was different, for example, imported powder quickly clogged the vent pipe. What kind of gunpowder was like that and the cartridges were equipped.
        1. +3
          18 August 2015 11: 23
          Why should I read it if the menu has it? The truth is not SVT but AVT 44g. release - there is such a teleprogram - "tested on myself", for gunpowder - in the Soviet pre-war, as well as in the pre-war, three-piece cartridges used gunpowder "VT" (rifle tubular), the supply of American gunpowder under the lend-lease began AFTER the reduction in production of SVT, here is no need to think that in our defense industry there were stupid people - experienced cartridges equipped with American gunpowder were initially tested, according to the test results it was recommended to use a mixture of BT with American pyroxylin powder, called VTOD, due to the presence of flame-extinguishing additives in the American, the formation of soot was indeed greater than from pure VT, BUT - VTOD gunpowder was used to equip rifle cartridges of only 2000 tons, which is less than 5%, so you can roughly estimate how this affected the operation of a rifle that is far from the most massive.
    2. -2
      18 August 2015 00: 51
      Quote: timyr
      In the Navy, where the culture is higher, since they took more technically savvy people, they used and praised them until the end of the war.

      And where is the navy daily naughty with small arms?
      Quote: timyr
      And in the army, the former peasants did not even explain to them that the gas regulator should be cleaned and tightened under each batch of cartridges so that there were no misfires.

      That's it. You read the instruction on SVT, it seems that there is no time for a soldier to fight. It should only that gadotov regulate. Of course, set to the maximum. From this, the SVT quickly failed. Worthless product was, in fact.
      1. +2
        18 August 2015 01: 21
        Do you seriously think that weapons classes were not held? Did you even serve in the army? So we can master and maintain a machine gun or a car, and SVT-stsukoblingiperboloid? Do not be lazy to clean and care! Not only ordinary fighters, but also snipers, including German ones, were using and were pleased.
        So an experienced designer, a professional, made an unusable weapon that for some reason passed all the tests and was put into service, allocated resources and funds for its production, etc. .... can you imagine what kind of a colossus this is ?!
        Instructions for this are written to be read, and they were written based on the peasant, intelligibly and simply. It was all the way down to the dowsing manual when searching for water.
        I’ll even tell you a little more: the rearmament of the Red Army was supposed to end according to pre-war plans in 1942 and the SVT was to become the infantry’s main weapon, but in connection with the war it was decided to increase the production of PCA as cheaper, although it was originally supposed to be the weapon of scouts, scouts etc..
        1. +3
          18 August 2015 01: 25
          And what does the navy have to do with it? They also tell you about the selection of more technically competent people in the fleet who understood the importance of regular maintenance of equipment, and therefore SVT worked fine for them.
          It’s possible to fuck Kalashnikov so that you’ll distort the shutter with your foot)))
          1. -1
            18 August 2015 01: 47
            Quote: Izotovp
            who understood the importance of regular maintenance of the equipment, therefore, CBT worked fine for them.

            They understood everything. But the sailors fired 1 time in their entire lives. And the infantrymen fired every day. That is the main difference.
            Quote: Izotovp
            You can fuck up Kalashnikov so you’ll distort the shutter with your foot

            Without any jamming, the SVT adjustments "left" right during the battle. This caused delays. By the second battle, all adjustments were at their maximum. There were no more delays, but the kirdyk came quickly enough to the rifle.
        2. -3
          18 August 2015 01: 41
          Quote: Izotovp
          So we can master and maintain a machine gun or a car, and the SVT-stsukoblingiperboloid

          Have you carefully read the difference about the difference between DP and SVT? Do you understand what I wrote? I think not. Read, understand, and then comment.
          Quote: Izotovp
          Do not be lazy to clean and care

          You probably didn't understand. The adjustments "left" right during the battle. Therefore, by the second battle, the hole size was set to the maximum.
          Quote: Izotovp
          Not only ordinary fighters, but also snipers, including German ones, used and were pleased

          Did they tell you this? I especially liked the passage about the German SVT snipers. Go on, you are doing well.
          Quote: Izotovp
          So an experienced designer, professional

          And who is this? Tokarev or what? Why did you decide that he is an "experienced designer, professional"?
          Quote: Izotovp
          which for some reason passed all the tests and was put into service, allocated resources and funds for its production, etc .... you can imagine what kind of colossus it is

          Very inexplicable things often happened in the USSR. It was a strange country.
          Quote: Izotovp
          and SVT was to become the infantry’s main weapon

          Must-not. And it was impossible to shoot from it for a long time. Out of order. There was such a design. From this, the cost of 1 shot was prohibitive. Therefore, it was abandoned.
          Quote: Izotovp
          but in connection with the war, it was decided to increase the production of PCA as a cheaper one,

          But this was one of the crimes of the Soviet government against the people. The effective firing range of the PPSh is 30 m. And the Mauser rifle is 400 m. While the "company of machine gunners" got to the Germans, only rags remained from it.
        3. +1
          19 August 2015 16: 31
          Somewhere I found memoirs of a fascist sniper. And not a fake, but published by the Germans in the west. And there is a detailed description of how this German began to fight with the K-98. Then he picked up Mosinka sniper and he really liked her. But when he got the captured SVT, he bumped from it specifically. Semi-automatic firepower, aiming control, transfer of fire to targets immediately became an order of magnitude higher. Without hesitation, he called this rifle the best in his combat career. He was not embarrassed by the complexity of her service. He stated that where he had previously hit one, he could put five times more with this Russian rifle. So I think, how strong would the Stalinist Army become, without exception, armed with the SVT?
          1. 0
            19 August 2015 16: 48
            Quote: strelok-54
            But when he got the captured SVT, he bumped from it specifically.

            Maybe popped. Some of the rabbits are steeped and also twisted. So, there are enough fools.
            Well, but seriously, the SVT had advantages over shops not only in the rate of fire. SVT was very popular with girl snipers. Her recoil was weaker than that of the mosquito. With a very small loss in efficiency. And about the German rifle and say nothing. That was specifically a harsh weapon.
            But these are snipers. They rarely shoot. An uncharacteristic example. SVT was not suitable for linear fighters. And to do it only for snipers, it was a luxury for the USSR.
            Quote: strelok-54
            So I think, how strong would the Stalinist Army become, without exception, armed with the SVT?

            Very soon she would have been left completely unarmed, only with a PPSh. And with mosinki, a significant part of the army was unarmed (companies of machine gunners). And with SVT there would be even more of these "mouths of machine gunners". Accordingly, there would be more losses.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        18 August 2015 11: 27
        Quote: 190815
        Worthless product was, in fact.

        Young man, did you hold this product in your hands? The light resource in the most barbaric exploitation of the order of 5000 c. - that in war conditions is more than enough.
        Quote: 190815
        Read the SVT manual

        Well so re-read it again and realize how and when it is regulated.
        1. 0
          18 August 2015 11: 41
          Quote: gross kaput
          The light resource in the most barbaric exploitation of the order of 5000 c. - that in war conditions is more than enough.

          And how are war conditions different from peacetime? Shots on Mars occur? Now I don’t remember exactly, but in my opinion the mosquito shot 15-20 thousand shots. You can estimate the cost of one shot yourself. It is clear that the paulo-automatic machine will have more. But at SVT it was beyond. Therefore, it was abandoned.
          Quote: gross kaput
          Well so re-read it again and realize how and when it is regulated.

          Duc, when re-reading, I could not realize when a fighter should begin to fight. If he had to tighten the nut all the way with a special key.
          1. +1
            18 August 2015 12: 56
            Quote: 190815
            And how are war conditions different from peacetime?

            The fact that the owners are periodically killed, so that there is no expense of b / p for training practice and wearable b / c rifle cartridges are not rubber, etc. etc. as a result, a resource of 5 tv more than enough for a rifle.
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 22: 52
              I understood. All over the world live and make weapons, which are then called high-quality, fools. Guano must be made. This is the key to success. Thank you for bothering.
              1. +1
                19 August 2015 10: 35
                Quote: 190815
                Must do guano

                My friend, do not you bother to voice your own experience with weapons - with guan and not with guan? Judging by the statements, probably zero, the maximum is pneumatics. Went to philosophize on forums where things are discussed in which you really understand.
                1. -1
                  19 August 2015 11: 16
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  My friend, do not you bother to voice your own experience with weapons - with guan and not with guan?

                  But why?
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  Went to philosophize on forums where things are discussed in which you really understand.

                  I just philosophize EXCLUSIVELY on those topics in which I understand. Unlike you.
  15. +3
    16 August 2015 12: 43
    Quote: Seamaster
    Legs are stretched on clothes.
    Well, there was no arms industry in Russia / USSR then
    There were some semi-handicraft industries (like the producers of Afghan and Pakistani "Kalash") with semi-literate workers.
    It is humanitarians-fuckers who describe "Russia we have lost."
    And in kind, the armament was a NAGAN-Mosin rifle, a NAGAN revolver, machine guns MAXIM, COLT, LEWIS and SCHOSH, armored cars were brought from England and only sheathed with iron in Russia.
    About the fleet and aviation - only tears.
    Chemistry - imports, gunpowder - almost all imports.
    Brass for cartridges was purchased everywhere except Antarctica.
    By the way, rifles and machine guns are the same.
    And the caliber of 7.62 mm for the Nagan revolver and TT pistol was chosen from the economy - defective trunks were used in the production in the production of three rulers: up to 50% of the trunks were rejected there.
    And they began to crawl out of this weapon-industrial poverty only somewhere before the Second World War and only thanks to the inhuman efforts of the "bloody commies".

    All modern types of weapons of that time were produced in Russia.
    The Ilya Muromets aircraft was an unsurpassed model. The best samples were bought and their production was mastered at the imperial factories. Battleships of the Empress Maria type were built. You are worried that the developments were foreign. So this is nonsense, the main weapons went to the troops in sufficient quantities and it met the most modern requirements.
    The Bolsheviks who seized power first recreated military production. All the most promising weapons in the West were bought up, a significant part of which was mastered by industry. The mastered samples were creatively redesigned and modernized. This is common practice, China is doing the same. The main weapons produced modern. Bulk. Not inferior to the weapons of the enemy.
    1. -13
      16 August 2015 22: 28
      The Ilya Muromets aircraft was a cut of the dough and was actually an economic and military sabotage against the Russian aviation.
      Claimed as a "fighter jet", it had a speed of 120 km / h, while German fighters had a speed of 200 km / h. He wanted to catch them with a spoon, or whatever. But he had luxurious plush chairs and tall bronze ashtrays.
      Further. In Russia, aircraft engines AT ALL did not release. Fighter Planes GATHERED.
      4-engine "Ilya Muromets" "devoured" 4 aircraft engines. This means that the Russian Air Force lost 4 fighters.
      That's why German planes walked over the heads of our infantry.
      4-engine German "Gotha" with a large carrying capacity bombed cities and allied troops, there were 4-engine BOMBERS and England. WHAT DID THE "Muromets" DO SIGNIFICANTLY?
      Nothing.
      Goleted show-offs and wrecking.
      1. 0
        30 December 2015 14: 45
        Quote: Seamaster
        The Ilya Muromets aircraft was a cut of the dough and was actually an economic and military sabotage against the Russian aviation.
        Claimed as a "fighter jet"
        immediately visible - a connoisseur of military history and the history of weapons. Here are just real knowledge - 0. "Ilya Muromets" was created as a bomber, and it was. I don't read your vyser anymore.
    2. -2
      18 August 2015 01: 00
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      Battleships of the Empress Maria type were built.

      Little good troughs were built. They liked to call them with beautiful words: "battleship", "battleship", "cruiser". It looked gorgeous. But in fact, the ships are cooler than BrBO, the Russian industry has built only a few times.
      As soon as these same troughs were encountered at sea with normal foreign ships, disaster happened. Because they’re fighting not names, but specific products. But this was bad in Russia.
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      All the most promising weapons in the West were bought up, a significant part of which was mastered by industry.

      Here is how! And can you give examples? What, then, during the WWII of the USSR fought mainly weapons of the times of WWII? Since he was so rich in these very promising weapons.
      1. +1
        20 August 2015 10: 31
        What are you sho? and what kind of weapons of the 1mv era did the Red Army use in 2mv except the Mosin rifle, Nagan pistol and Maxim machine gun, and recall how much they were produced in the Russian Empire, and what% of weapons were bought abroad in those years? And the new weapons are PPSh, TT, PTRD, SVT, DP, DShK - only what came to mind. and this is a rifle, not counting the latest tanks, planes, artillery. And everything was going to OUR factories!
  16. +2
    16 August 2015 13: 33
    Employees of militia special forces, whose weapons are real at work, preferred TT.

    I remember that in the mid-70s I received an order: to shoot all the ammunition stock for the TTs that were in storage, almost all the willing officers scoffed, then, along with the PM, several dozen TTs were handed over and sent somewhere. From such stupid shooter, the advantages of TT somehow did not appreciate

    At present, you need to buy TT - just in case ....
  17. +6
    16 August 2015 14: 01
    Quote: RoTTor
    At present, you need to buy TT - just in case ....

    Than judo and karate, better old TT laughing
  18. +13
    16 August 2015 14: 19
    Maybe someone will be interested ... Click on the image)))
  19. +14
    16 August 2015 15: 38
    I have the honor of owning this weapon for several years. I took a completely new one i.e. (restored at the factory) for that and the stamp "diamond" is embossed on the frame. I chose it myself from a large green box in 1954 Tula. By the way, Soviet weapons (TT Mosinka, SKS) were dragged from Ukradina en masse. Now they are not taking "the trab" themselves. The weapon is good, comfortable and compact. It is easy to carry in a holster, apparently without it there will be no problems either. The lack of a fuse is rather a plus for the fighter (the pistol was created for the army). Simplicity of design, ease of maintenance, and the quality of workmanship is better than, for example, Yarygin's crafts, etc. I would like to note all this. The TT is very good in accuracy. Usually, after getting bored with the target to make holes, they threw a pack of cigarettes at 25 meters and drove it with shots with Sanka also from TT. They surprised the local audience with this trick many times. I had a chance to get 7,62 measuring calibers ... Experiments showed that in my barrel the bell with a diameter of 7,642 and the barrel diameter of the other 7,635 and the bell (wear) is clearly less, although the barrel was produced in 1943. The measurement of the third barrel that was not fired at all showed 7,63 and ....... Offset of the bullet entry groove into the chamber to the left of the center axis, due to which the cartridge was simply not sent to the chamber. And accordingly the barrel is new and not fired because it simply could not shoot. Correcting the groove brought the gun back to life. When choosing a TT pistol (if any), you need to be careful and it is advisable to check the barrel wear. In general, the TT pistol is an excellent pistol. In my opinion, completely undeservedly forgotten by the Soviet and Russian armies but for many decades.
  20. 0
    16 August 2015 16: 40
    Aesthetics is not up to standard. Although at that time there could have been other representations. Yes, and PM is also not a masterpiece. Does anyone remember Margolin? Here is a machine with a shortened barrel for me, the ideal in terms of design. Dad brought 9 mm Walter from the front. While there were cartridges killing pigs. I like this form. In front of me lies a book of pistols and revolvers of the world. And yet Margolin. But the taste and color .... Take a closer look.
  21. +2
    16 August 2015 16: 44
    Oddly enough, there was a variant of the TT with an elongated barrel, I found a picture, but there are no characteristics, can anyone know? It is the TT, not the experienced 30s
  22. avt
    +4
    16 August 2015 18: 00
    “In the grace of the form, in some incredible proportionality of all the details, perhaps only the Browning M1903 - the best of the great John Moses Browning's pistols - can compete with the model of Fyodor Tokarev. The external similarity between the design of the TT and the Browning M1903 often gives rise to speculation that the Russian gunsmith copied the famous American's pistol. This reasoning has nothing to do with reality. " laughing This is strong! Just the same Browning - a miserable likeness of TT laughing No, I certainly understand that the author probably ends up with a TT in his hands, but this is not a reason to write nonsense - ,, In constructive terms, "Tula, Tokarev" is a kind of synthesis of the modified system of the Colt M1911 pistol, some elements of the "cartridge group" pistol "Mauser S-96" and motives of the exterior design of "Browning M1903". The ideology of the TT pistol, thus, combined in this product all the best that at that time the world weapon thought had accumulated in terms of designing short-barreled army weapons. " , there is not a dignity, but its main drawback, which actually led to the appearance of "Makarov", also unfortunately with 7,62mm, but a weak cartridge, and only now they came to the conclusion that in general, others had a long time ago - 9x9 Pair. why go into ecstasy then? Yes - maybe the author will explain the flight of his thoughts about the Colt19 and the Browning 1911 exterior design? Well, he will explain to me the unreasonable - who is the author of the Colt1903 wassat Like old Colt? laughing Well, in general, the article No. negative There was already a good article on the site comparing TT and his own "father" - "Browning" in detail. So there was something without exaltation and it was quite the case.
    1. -4
      17 August 2015 01: 22
      A PM is a complete copy of "Walter PP". Only for 9mm caliber. Which, obviously, does not really affect the improvement of his performance characteristics for the better.
      1. avt
        0
        17 August 2015 08: 39
        Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
        A PM is a complete copy of "Walter PP". Only for 9mm caliber.

        wassat You generally compared the design, well, in the sense of mechanics, or only as the author of the article
        Quote: avt
        . External similarity of the design of the TT and the Browning M1903
        ??
        Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
        . Which, obviously, does not particularly affect the improvement of its performance characteristics for the better.

        9mm ???? request ,, Well, you fucking give ... " laughing
        1. +1
          17 August 2015 11: 41
          PM is a Makarov pistol. And what is his caliber? And this is from memory (I do not remember the name of the book): The general layout of the PM is similar to the Walter PP pistol, however Makarov significantly improved the basic Walter system in several directions.
          1. +3
            18 August 2015 14: 47
            Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
            PM is a Makarov pistol. And what is his caliber? And this is from memory (I do not remember the name of the book): The general layout of the PM is similar to the Walter PP pistol, however Makarov significantly improved the basic Walter system in several directions.

            "Weapon of Infantry", released with the assistance of the trading house "Raduga" (Ukraine) in 1992. am Why are you modest?
      2. -3
        17 August 2015 11: 48
        From Wikipedia: After the war, the USSR "ripped off" the [Walther] PP design and created on its basis a service pistol called Makarov or PM (in the export version - "Baikal IJ-70"). Was also created a Soviet version of the .380 cartridge with a bullet diameter .36 "(approximately 9,3 mm), called" Makarov 9x18 mm. "Both cartridges are fundamentally identical, create a moderate pressure in the barrel, which makes them suitable for use in systems weapons with a free shutter.
        1. avt
          +2
          17 August 2015 16: 49
          Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
          From Wikipedia:

          laughing Yeah! This is however a weight source. laughing . The main and perhaps the only one - as a souvenir, borrowing Makarov from Walter - this is a scheme for locking the trigger on the frame of the gun. We wouldn’t be too lazy, would find on the website an article with this statement -
          “Sometimes they say that the PM was completely copied from the German Walter, but the only thing that passed to him from the German model was the disassembly principle. The principle of automation and the circuit itself existed before that, but the trigger mechanism in the PM was an original development. The pistol was convenient and simple, it consisted of less than 30 parts, ”emphasized Mikhail Degtyarev. "
        2. +3
          18 August 2015 08: 19
          Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
          From Wikipedia: After the war, the USSR "ripped off" the [Walther] PP design and created on its basis a service pistol called Makarov or PM (in the export version - "Baikal IJ-70"). Was also created a Soviet version of the .380 cartridge with a bullet diameter .36 "(approximately 9,3 mm), called" Makarov 9x18 mm. "Both cartridges are fundamentally identical, create a moderate pressure in the barrel, which makes them suitable for use in systems weapons with a free shutter.
          Here lovers of Wikipedia gathered here.
  23. 0
    16 August 2015 18: 37
    Thank you for the article ! Very interesting ! A very interesting question from Tokarev’s biography: so who made the first automatic rifle-Tokarev or Fedorov?
    1. -2
      18 August 2015 01: 14
      Quote: Izotovp
      so who made the first automatic rifle-Tokarev or Fedorov

      It depends from what point of view to look. If it is very strict, then Degtyarev. True, his automatic rifle was called "machine gun" in the USSR. In fact, this is not true, but in the USSR they liked to call things not by their proper names.
      And Fedorov, again, strictly speaking, made a self-loading rifle with the possibility of automatic fire. It was not a full-fledged assault rifle (assault rifle), as propaganda writes. And the need for such weapons for the army is extremely doubtful. The Soviet Union abandoned classic machines in the 70s. And besides him, no one else in the world produced them.
      1. 0
        18 August 2015 03: 41
        What do you mean by a classic machine gun? An automatic rifle cartridge or intermediate machine, and which one did the USSR refuse?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      30 December 2015 15: 00
      Quote: Izotovp
      so who made the first automatic rifle-Tokarev or Fedorov?

      The first rifles were created by state competition. A mandatory requirement is to redo the three-ruler. Fedorov came to the conclusion that first you need to adopt a less powerful cartridge with improved ballistics and only then do self-loading. So that first really working automatic rifle created Fedorov, and on its base is already a machine gun (light machine gun).
  24. +2
    16 August 2015 18: 48
    TT-33 - the best serial army pistol. Even today.
    1. avt
      0
      16 August 2015 19: 36
      Quote: Banson
      TT-33 - the best serial army pistol. Even today.

      laughing Even the notorious "Glock -17 and Mark 23 are resting?" wassat However, this exaltation at the sight of TT is a statement of the genius of the gunsmith John Moiseevich Browning.
      1. -3
        17 August 2015 10: 34
        Quote: avt

        laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing AY-AY-AY-AY-AY!
        Quote: avt
        Even the notorious "Glock -17 and Mark 23 are resting?"

        Yes. Where is the plastic GLOK with a rather average cartridge to a strong, powerful and accurate TT-33.
        1. avt
          -1
          17 August 2015 10: 47
          Quote: Banson
          Yes. Where is the plastic GLOK with a rather average cartridge to a strong, powerful and accurate TT-33.

          Insanity grew stronger in a virtual tank HF computer game with a virtual TT in your pocket laughing Soon the option of a cannon at the ward of tank will not be needed - you will be clicking virtual "Abrams" from TT.
          1. -2
            17 August 2015 10: 54
            Quote: avt

            laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing AY-AY-AY-AY-AY wassat
  25. 0
    16 August 2015 19: 31
    Quote: Tankist_1980
    Maybe someone will be interested ... Click on the image)))

    here he is. simple and reliable
  26. +1
    16 August 2015 21: 49
    In 82, my friend from a parallel class in the summer during the holidays between 6-7 classes, going fishing in the morning, went on the road for little need to the demolished huts and there, on the floor, he found the TT of the year 38 in perfect condition, most likely fell out of the ceiling hole or walls when the barracks were demolished. A couple of days we poured him and groomed, and then a man came called himself a cop and my friend gave it! Already over the years, we often recalled this episode and agreed that the man was not a cop, someone from the yard boys probably brought some acquaintance.
    By the way, my former friend in the dashing 90 was killed by two former prisoners because of a woman, if TT could have been different, this is the story with TT.
    1. +1
      17 August 2015 11: 39
      Quote: Rubon
      By the way, my former friend in the dashing 90 was killed by two former prisoners because of a woman, if TT could have been different, this is the story with TT.

      Do you think that his TT would be with him at the right time in the right place?
  27. -10
    16 August 2015 22: 48
    All modern types of weapons of that time were produced in Russia.
    The Ilya Muromets aircraft was an unsurpassed model. The best samples were bought and their production was mastered at the imperial factories. Battleships of the Empress Maria type were built. You are worried that the developments were foreign. So this is nonsense, the main weapons went to the troops in sufficient quantities and it met the most modern requirements.

    1. The plane "Ilya Muromets" was a cut of the dough and actually an economic and military sabotage against the Russian aviation.
    Claimed as a "fighter jet", it had a speed of 120 km / h, while German fighters had a speed of 200 km / h. He wanted to catch them with a spoon, or what?
    But he had chic plush chairs and high bronze ashtrays.
    Further. In Russia, aircraft engines AT ALL did not release. Fighter Planes GATHERED.
    4-engine "Ilya Muromets" "devoured" 4 aircraft engines. This means that the Russian Air Force lost 4 fighters.
    That's why German planes walked over the heads of our infantry.
    4-engine German "Gotha" with a large carrying capacity bombed cities and allied troops, there were 4-engine BOMBERS and England. WHAT DID THE "Muromets" DO SIGNIFICANTLY?
    Nothing.
    Goleted show-offs and wrecking.
    2. All battleships built in tsarist Russia were built 2 times longer than those bought abroad, and cost one and a half times more. And their fighting qualities ....... 2 German cruisers under the Turkish flag drove the entire Black Sea Fleet (only 6 battleships) with rags, fired at Odessa, Novorossiysk and others. after half a year exploitation. By the way, all these six months it was DELIVERED. DIRECT ON THE GO.
    What is characteristic, the hero-admiral Kolchak, a Black Sea Fleet commander, did not lose his post.
    3. And what are all types of weapons released under the king? Light machine guns - no. Easel - licensed and in insufficient quantities. There weren’t enough rifles, in 1914 they bought rifles from Japan and BRAZIL. Their guns are only three inches, the rest is from France.
    Armored vehicles - from England. There are no guns at all. Aircraft - from France, aircraft engines - from there.
    Even Mosinki ordered in the USA. Himself shot from this - with the stigma of Remington.
    Bootie, knit reading the Democratic Press.
    Still, not 1989 in the yard.
    1. 0
      18 August 2015 02: 07
      In fact, the industry was not bad, but there was such corruption that ... approximately as it is now. Up to the members of the imperial family warmed their hands on military supplies. Faberge said: I have never had as many orders as during the war.
      1. +1
        18 August 2015 02: 51
        What does the minuscule disagree?
    2. +3
      18 August 2015 08: 46
      And what is your flag? Romanian what? My grandfather was captured, so at the airport he was guarded by the Germans from among the lightly wounded. And I’ll tell you one thing. They respected our fighters more than Romanians, Magyarb pasta, and other trash sticking to them. So close your mittens, and quietly sniff into two holes. Kmentment refers to the seva-master. laughing
  28. +1
    16 August 2015 23: 17
    Quote: Seamaster
    and WHAT SIGNIFICANTLY DONE "Muromtsy"?
    Nothing.

    Muromets appeared several years earlier and remained unsurpassed until the end of the war. And the Germans managed to shoot down only one plane for the entire war.
    1. -1
      17 August 2015 00: 25
      Or maybe because they could not bring down because they could not be found. A total of 80 of them have been released since 1912. Fuck 80 pieces in 6 years. And in all, Russia that we lost released 1200 aircraft in the three years of the war. Beggar Italy produced 12000 aircraft. And about Germany, England and France it is better not to read how much they released, the template gap is guaranteed.
      1. 0
        28 November 2015 15: 19
        Muromets shot down 7 fighters and fighters shot down one Muromets when the crew played cards and missed ....
    2. -6
      17 August 2015 08: 38
      As for the "consummation" - did you read it in "Young Technique"?
      Yes you google "Bombers of the 1st world".
      German and British 4-engine cars, created during the war, surpassed the "Muromtsy" both in speed and in carrying capacity.
      And the "Muromets" only flew for reconnaissance, because they COULD NOT perform REAL combat missions.
      And then motors developed a resource and .......
      Tsarist Russia itself did not produce motors, and what it received from France, it put it on fighters assembled in Russia.
      And she did it right.
      25 years later, the world's largest T-28 and T-35 tanks also showed themselves in battles.
      That is - NO.
      Py.Sy.
      In vain, you minuscule people.
      True eyes hurts?
      Or fell into a pioneer childhood?
      1. +2
        18 August 2015 09: 08
        Your Sikorsky Aircraft is either a fighter or a bomber, but was used as intelligence. laughing Googled for a long time?
    3. avt
      0
      17 August 2015 08: 44
      Quote: bbss
      Muromets appeared several years earlier and remained unsurpassed until the end of the war.

      fool Of course, I also respect Sikorsky’s priority in creating heavy, multi-engine aircraft, but why carry enchanting nonsense when ignorance of specific facts is how
      Quote: timyr
      . One of the reasons for the refusal of the TT was decided to switch to another cartridge since the population had a lot of weapons after the war.
      wassat Maybe he should work as a search engine, since now you can find on the Internet without getting up from a chair what used to be in books and you need to register in the library?
      1. -1
        17 August 2015 16: 52
        I did not say that this is the main reason. It was just that the union became richer and could afford the transition to a new cartridge. Or after the war, weapons didn’t lie on the battlefields.
  29. 0
    17 August 2015 01: 06
    Two questions arise: 1. Was it worth fencing a garden with a TT, which did not get rid of problems with reliability. In those days, they also bought more complex products: guns, tanks, planes, ships.
    Wouldn’t it be easier to purchase a license for a Spanish pistol under a 7,63mm cartridge.
    2. Was the "Rook" competition needed? Wasn't it easier to remake the TT. Both the Yugoslavs and Hungarians created their own, very successful versions of TT, including those chambered for 9mm * 19mm. The Belgians redesigned the 1935 HP, providing it with a double action trigger and a safe trigger lever.

    Military weapons should be made in their own country for their own ammunition. These are, if you like "Az" and "Buki", the strategy of arming an independent country.
  30. +1
    17 August 2015 02: 29
    I am simply pinned by "experts" in weapons who claim the "weakness" of the 7,62 / 25 cartridge in comparison with the 9/19 Para. and so I will give the maximum energy values. 7,62 / 25 -760 J 9/19 para -678 J. I consider the issue on this dispute closed. And I will politely keep silent about the fact that a bullet of a smaller diameter with a higher speed will show greater flatness and accuracy ...
    1. +1
      17 August 2015 07: 18
      The fact is that the cartridge bullet 7,62X25, with all its advantages, has a small stopping effect. Those. when it enters the human body, if it has not affected vital centers, the person did not lose consciousness, even remained on his feet and could still conduct military operations. In addition, the TT pistol is quite traumatic, it does not have a fuse, and in order to fire the first shot cock it. It still has a large size and weight with a relatively small caliber. For this reason, the TT pistol was withdrawn from service and replaced with an MP, which is both lighter, more compact, safer and more reliable, and its bullet has a great stopping ability. In addition, the basic concept of using pistols in general changed in 50 years .If you used to think that a gun was a weapon and an officer often had to run into the attack with a gun in his hand (the company commander will not go into battle with the Mosin rifle) then with the adoption of the Kalashnikov assault rifle the gun became a self-defense weapon. And PM coped with this role, and copes in full. Which, of course, does not detract from the merits of the TT pistol, both the first Soviet pistol and its creator, Fedor Tokarev.
      1. avt
        +1
        17 August 2015 08: 36
        Quote: bistrov.
        The fact is that the cartridge bullet 7,62X25, with all its advantages, has a small stopping effect. Those. when it enters the human body, if it has not affected vital centers, the person did not lose consciousness, even remained on his feet and could still conduct military operations. In addition, the TT pistol is quite traumatic, it does not have a fuse, and in order to fire the first shot cock the trigger.

        Come on ! Now, one clown will once again explain to you why the TT changed -
        Quote: timyr
        One of the reasons for the criminal population after the war is a bunch of weapons in their hands. Plus, TT stamped a bunch and lost a bunch of documentation numbers. So we decided to switch to a more powerful cartridge.

        laughing laughing
        1. +1
          17 August 2015 11: 19
          This is exactly so, a small stopping effect. This is not my opinion, but the statement of the old colonel of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, who began in 49 in western Ukraine. It was he who first told me that with all that they dragged the Walters to the operation, because the TT from a single shot almost never knocked a person down.
        2. -1
          17 August 2015 17: 02
          The reason is simple in the hands of the population is weapons. We stop the production of cartridges for it and what remains in the hands of the population are simple pieces of iron. And if someone is trying to find cartridges for this caliber, it is easier to track. The authorities got burned at the Bandera movement in Ukraine, in the Baltic states.
      2. -7
        17 August 2015 08: 51
        I repeat again: legs are stretched across the clothes.
        Cartridge 7.62 x 25 has been adopted FROM ECONOMY.
        It was used in Patamushta not only in a pistol, but also in PPD, PPSh submachine guns and even Tokarev’s carbine that did not go into service.
        And they simply could not introduce another 20 mm ammunition in the impoverished army of the USSR in the years 30-9.
        There were no factories or personnel.
        By the way, this is why the 7.62 x 54R cartridge, which was very inconvenient for automatic weapons, remained in service.
        I repeat, up to the 30's, the military industry of Russia / the USSR was semi-handicraft with very poorly qualified labor force.
        That’s why they didn’t buy a license from the Germans on the MG-34 - until 1942 the best machine gun of all times and peoples, but they made their own ... DP-27.
        Well, our hard workers could not produce such a complex machine gun!
        And if it were not for the inhuman efforts of the "bloody commies" in the creation of a modern military industry, then even now the army would either buy a rifleman for rubbed, or would run with "Berdanks".
        1. 0
          17 August 2015 11: 45
          Quote: Seamaster
          And if it were not for the inhuman efforts of the "bloody commies" in the creation of a modern military industry, then even now the army would either buy a rifleman for rubbed, or would run with "Berdanks".

          We wouldn’t be here now. With the tsarist economy and the military-industrial complex, it was impossible to survive the attack of the Third Reich in principle.
          Quote: Seamaster
          Cartridge 7.62 x 25 has been adopted FROM ECONOMY.

          Not only because of the economy, but also because of the excellent fighting qualities.
          Quote: Seamaster
          By the way, this is why the 7.62 x 54R cartridge, which was very inconvenient for automatic weapons, remained in service.

          He is now in service. And no one thinks to remove it from service.
          Quote: Seamaster
          I repeat, up to the 30's, the military industry of Russia / the USSR was semi-handicraft with very poorly qualified labor force.

          Well, not really, not really. Yes, industrialization ended by the 1941, but in fact it began much earlier than the 1931. With the end of the Civil War. In 1931, with the famous words of Stalin, her active phase began, so to speak.
          1. -3
            17 August 2015 12: 04
            Industrialization began in 1927.
            Prior to this, there was a slow dying of those miserable remnants of the allegedly military industry that remained after the civil war.
            Read how many tanks and planes were in the Red Army in the 1928 year and which ones.
            And the 7.62 x 54R cartridge is in service with the same considerations - from ECONOMY.
            In the warehouses there are millions of barrels under this cartridge, tens of billions of cartridges, the mass of rotor lines for the manufacture of these cartridges cannot be replaced by new ones.
            Although there is talk about preparing for the implementation of the 6.8 x 45 cartridge.
            Puzatenky such.
            1. +1
              17 August 2015 12: 18
              Quote: Seamaster
              Although there is talk about preparing for the implementation of the 6.8 x 45 cartridge.
              Puzatenky such.

              Everyone is trying to find a balance of power-performance. In my opinion, 7,62x39 was optimal for the machine.
              Quote: Seamaster
              And the 7.62 x 54R cartridge is in service with the same considerations - from ECONOMY.

              And because of the excellent fighting qualities.
              Quote: Seamaster
              Read how many tanks and planes were in the Red Army in the 1928 year and which ones.

              Do you think our opponents were better?
              Quote: Seamaster
              Prior to this, there was a slow dying of those miserable remnants of the allegedly military industry that remained after the civil war.

              Tsarist Russia had a very powerful industry and the best technology in the world. But at the same time, it is extremely limited in scope and works almost entirely on the defense industry. Such an industry could not satisfy the state’s needs. It `s naturally.
              1. 0
                18 August 2015 09: 00
                Quote: Banson
                Everyone is trying to find a balance of power-performance. In my opinion, 7,62x39 was optimal for the machine.

                What for? Why are you repeating the Internet shkolota nonsense? Who is interested in this invented "balance? What is this" optimal "taken and taken out of production?
                Quote: Banson
                Tsarist Russia had a very powerful industry and the best technology in the world.

                You still forgot to write about nurseries for growing pink elephants.
                But actually the military-industrial complex was. Second-rate, but it was. And the industry was. Also second-rate.
            2. 0
              18 August 2015 09: 13
              Quote: Seamaster
              Although there is talk about preparing for the implementation of the 6.8 x 45 cartridge.
              Puzatenky such.

              These conversations have been going on for decades. And decades will go. So far, no successful weapons have been created on it.
          2. -1
            18 August 2015 11: 55
            Quote: Banson
            With the tsarist economy and the military-industrial complex, it was impossible to survive the attack of the Third Reich in principle.

            With tsarism it is generally not clear what would have happened in Europe. for example, in this case Russia and Germany after 1 MV would have a common border. And the "Danzig corridor" would be in Russia. The story would be different, in short.
            Quote: Banson
            but also because of the excellent fighting qualities

            Excellent. From the good ones.
            Quote: Banson
            He is now in service. And no one thinks to remove it from service

            Expensive. There is such a thing as expensive. And in terms of power, it more or less suits. Therefore, do not touch.
            Quote: Banson
            Yes, industrialization was completed by 1941, but in fact it began much earlier than 1931. With the end of the Civil War. In 1931, with the famous words of Stalin, its active phase began, so to speak.

            Real industrialization in the USSR began in 1942. On Lend-Lease deliveries. And it ended after Khrushchev after. On captured technologies and equipment. Already under Brezhnev.
            And what happened before the war is a clear lesson on how to do it. How to prosra (not steal) a lot of money without getting practically nothing in return. Or getting crumbs.
            Under Brezhnev, everything again returned to this "sweet" stage, which in literature is called the affectionate word "stagnation." No, there was “vigorous activity”, as it was under Stalin before the war. And there were no real results. This is the normal state of the pseudo-religious feudal society, which loudly called itself "socialism". Feudalism in modern conditions is economically ineffective. This has been proven in its various forms. Even as exotic as "socialism".
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. +1
          17 August 2015 13: 00
          Quote: Seamaster
          That's why they did not buy a license from the Germans for MG-34 - until 1942, the best machine gun of all time


          Quote: Seamaster
          Well, our hard workers could not produce such a complex machine gun!


          Quite right, only you forgot to add "expensive and unreliable". Therefore, our hard workers could not produce it, because they are not needed.
          1. -4
            17 August 2015 13: 09
            Is MG-34 not reliable?
            A joke of humor?
            And about the dear - yes.
            That's why they released a new modification - MG-42.
            Which, with minor modifications, is still in service - aka MG-3.
            But the DP-27 is not in service anywhere.
            Already 70 years.
            1. 0
              17 August 2015 13: 19
              What are you attached to the DP-27. How about the same DTM? SG-43? DS-39?
              1. -3
                17 August 2015 15: 29
                Because the MG-34 and DP-27 are MANUAL machine guns.
                What is DTM - I do not know. M.B. - PDM? The pistol grip is added and the spring is transferred to the butt. And fso.
                MACHINE SG-43 and DS-39 to compare somehow incorrectly with the handbrake. Besides
                ---- they are almost 10 years younger
                ---- DS-39 sent a firebox, production ceased, because a turd.
                Something no worse than the MG-34 is the RP-46.
                But this is a different story.
                1. +3
                  17 August 2015 15: 38
                  MG-34 is a single machine gun, not a manual one. I would recommend you teach the material part of the subject.
                2. +2
                  17 August 2015 16: 12
                  Quote: Seamaster
                  Because the MG-34 and DP-27 are MANUAL machine guns.

                  That's because the byad - the MG-34 is not manual but a single machine gun. laughing
                  Quote: Seamaster
                  DS-39 sent a firebox, production stopped because turd

                  Byad DS-39 was in the demand of the military to use canvas tape from the maxim - hence all the problems with the feed.
                  Quote: Seamaster
                  Something no worse than the MG-34 is the RP-46.

                  And again, returning to our rams, point 1 of the MG-34 is a single machine gun, point two of the RP-46 is a DPM converted to tape power.
                  PS
                  Quote: Seamaster
                  What is DTM - I do not know

                  One would doubt that one could immediately see the specialist on the flight of thought, and although the person described himself, the DTM existed - Degtyarev Tank Modernized.
                  1. -5
                    17 August 2015 18: 52
                    Well, if you can drag tank machine guns here .....
                    then yes!
                    ShKAS aviation stick here?
                    Had ALL the flaws of the DP-27 plus a disk store.
                    At the time of MG-34, the concept of "single machine gun" did not exist and was rarely used on a tripod. Always on bipod.
                    The Germans also used the "Maxim" MG-09 in the version of a light machine gun.
                    So, "Maxim" is a single machine gun?
                    1. +1
                      18 August 2015 11: 22
                      At the time of MG-34, the concept of "single machine gun" did not exist and was rarely used on a tripod. Always on bipod.And here is your truth ... HWaA in 1930 gave weapons firms a new TTZ for constructing a SINGLE machine gun, which should be both manual at the level of an infantry platoon, and also an easel at the level of an infantry battalion company ... so MG -34 on a tripod used in all ...
                  2. -2
                    18 August 2015 02: 51
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    That's because byad

                    The trouble is there elsewhere. DP is not a machine gun, but an automatic rifle. I didn’t say it, it’s written in TTX.
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    MG-34 is not manual but a single machine gun

                    Perfectly operated in the "handbrake" version. There was no machine tool and there were fewer replaceable barrels. That's the whole difference.
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    point two RP-46 is a DPM converted to tape power.

                    PDM converted to another power was called RPD. RP-46 is not Degtyarev.
                    1. +1
                      18 August 2015 12: 12
                      Quote: 190815
                      PDM converted to another power was called RPD. RP-46 is not Degtyarev.

                      Still worse than I thought http://world.guns.ru/machine/rus/dp-dpm-rp-46-r.html check out at your leisure.
                      1. -1
                        18 August 2015 22: 32
                        A scribe (such an animal) you have sources of knowledge. You would have cited the inscription on the fence as an example. The value of the "sources" is roughly equal.
                      2. -2
                        19 August 2015 10: 40
                        Alyosha, yes, I look, you are not at all in the subject - what are you doing here? are you trolling? This is the site of Max Popenker, one of the best shooting specialists in Russia. laughing
                      3. 0
                        19 August 2015 11: 06
                        Gee-gee. So I see your "specialists". From there and your "knowledge". From the series "one grandmother said on the Internet."
                      4. 0
                        26 November 2015 16: 53
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        This is the site of Max Popenker, one of the best shooting specialists in Russia.

                        Then why didn’t all and often not the most important performance characteristics of the DP and RP-46 be indicated in his article?
                        Why is there "?" In front of the DP barrel length on the plate? I will tell the best specialist, there should be 605 mm without a flame arrester.
                        Why does the best specialist not write that the barrel was not only heavier, but also modified on both sides? As a result, the combat rate of fire increased from 80 to 250 rounds per minute (this is not a joke, a very serious increase, with RP-46 fire density blocking three DPMs). The length of the sighting line slightly decreased. There was also an increase in the length of the threaded portion of the barrel. As a result, the n / s of the bullet decreased from 840 to 825 m / s.
                        Those. in fact, the machine gun received a completely new barrel. With a completely new ballistics and performance characteristics.
                        Yes, the machine gun is based on DPM. But given the fact that Degtyarev did not take part in its creation, a completely new barrel, a completely new type of power supply, as well as a bunch of smaller changes, is it really hard to say that this is a "new Degtyarev". Yes and no in its name the letter "D", as in the PD and PDM. Which is perfectly fair. But in the RPD, there is. And this is also no coincidence.
                    2. +1
                      18 August 2015 12: 17
                      Quote: 190815
                      DP is not a machine gun, but an automatic rifle. I didn’t say it, it’s written in TTX.

                      / You really tie up with heavy chemistry -
                      1. -2
                        18 August 2015 22: 42
                        When you look at a book, try to see something else there. In addition to figs.
                        And do not show Soviet agitation to me. Most importantly, see below. And it clearly follows from it that the DP is an automatic rifle. She does not reach the machine gun due to the low density of fire. In general, it’s time to get used to the fact that everything was written in the Bolsheviks cleverly, not in plain text. Didn’t you live with the councils?
                      2. 0
                        19 August 2015 10: 46
                        Yes, my friend, you also introduce an alternative classification ?! Respect and respect! laughing
                      3. -1
                        19 August 2015 11: 11
                        Ie, as I understand it, everything. The opponent was blown away. There are no arguments against the document and cannot be. Only the "idol Popenker" remained on your side. laughing
                        Study the documents, my dear. Everything is written there. And tie with all sorts of businessmen on the Internet. Nowadays, it has become a bad manners.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. 0
                        26 November 2015 16: 29
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        / You really tie up with heavy chemistry -

                        You would not be rude to knowledgeable people, but try to discern something else in the book, other than the usual figs.
                        In your illustration, it is clearly indicated that the DP is an automatic rifle. In clause 2. The last sentence. About combat rate of fire.
                        Maybe you just don’t know how a machine gun differs from an automatic rifle? It seems like that.
            2. 0
              17 August 2015 14: 40
              Quote: Seamaster
              Is MG-34 not reliable?

              This MG-34 is not reliable!
              1. -1
                17 August 2015 15: 33
                In the photo of the Second World War, have you met the Germans with the DP-27?
                And ours with MG-34 or MG-42 - constantly.
                With PPSh and SVT-40 German pictures are full.
      3. +1
        17 August 2015 12: 07
        Shoot from the TT and PM on the light body armor. A TT bullet will strike him and injure or kill the one in him. A PM bullet will leave only a bruise. I don’t need an injured enemy in battle, I need him dead.
        1. 0
          17 August 2015 13: 02
          Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
          A PM bullet will leave only a bruise.

          7H25 will strike.
          1. -1
            17 August 2015 13: 10
            It will strike, but the PM itself will fall to pieces.
            You did not confuse him with PMM?
            1. 0
              17 August 2015 13: 17
              PM is a "cop" pistol. The next army pistol after the TT-33 was the APS. Not a bad thing already. Auto. But ToToshka is still better.
              1. -1
                17 August 2015 15: 31
                I totally agree.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. 0
              17 August 2015 14: 45
              Quote: Seamaster
              You did not confuse him with PMM?

              No, it was developed for PM.
      4. +3
        18 August 2015 09: 20
        Quote: bistrov.
        The fact is that the bullet of the 7,62X25 cartridge, with all its advantages, has a small stopping effect. Those. when it enters the human body, if it has not affected vital centers, the person did not lose consciousness, even remained on his feet and could still carry out military operations. In addition, the TT pistol is quite traumatic, it does not have a fuse, and you need to fire the first shot cock it. It still has a large size and weight with a relatively small caliber. It is for this reason that the TT pistol was withdrawn from service and replaced by MP.

        Shaw, replaced by a machine gun? fellow
    2. -1
      18 August 2015 01: 27
      Quote: tracer
      I am simply pinned by "experts" in weapons who claim the "weakness" of the 7,62 / 25 cartridge in comparison with the 9/19 Para. and so I will give the maximum energy values. 7,62 / 25 -760 J 9/19 para -678 J. I consider the issue on this dispute closed.

      Did you count on the accounts? Or on sticks?
      7,62 / 25 mm in the TT pistol - 487 J. Even in the PPSh 690 J.
      9/19 mm para in Walter P38 - 507 J.
      Moreover, in terms of efficiency, 1 J at 9 mm (actually 8,8 mm) is not equal to 1 J at 7,62 mm. There, at 7,62 mm, about a third of these same joules need more, for parity.
      Quote: tracer
      And about the fact that a bullet of a smaller diameter with a higher speed will show greater flatness and accuracy politely silent ...

      Here it is, right. Because pistols do not need any special flatness. Each category of pistols has its own range. The army - 50 m. AND EVERYTHING. The rest is mental masturbation. Invented advantages. The same applies to submachine guns. 100 m. For further distances, other types of weapons exist.
  31. 0
    17 August 2015 16: 06
    Quote: Banson
    PM is a "cop" pistol. The next army pistol after the TT-33 was the APS. Not a bad thing already. Auto. But ToToshka is still better.

    Weapons, and not only, are classified according to the tasks they perform, do not list what typical tasks an "army" pistol should perform?
    1. +2
      17 August 2015 17: 37
      The task of an army pistol is, first of all, to reliably hit an enemy soldier (it’s not even important to kill or seriously injure him, the main thing is to disable him) from the maximum possible distance. Moreover, such a defeat should also be ensured if the enemy soldier is dressed in personal protective equipment - body armor, helmet, etc. And the TT-33 pistol meets these requirements as well as possible. Thanks to the powerful 7,62x25 cartridge with high energy and initial 420m / s speed, the TT-33 pistol without any problems penetrates almost all known bulletproof vests (although it appeared long before their development) and confidently amazes the manpower in them. It has high accuracy firing at long distances - 50m and more. Punches boards in eight layers right through, car bodies, car engine block, etc. In general, there is no better gun for the army. The only objective disadvantage of the TT-33 is the lack of a fuse.
      As for the "cop" pistol PM, its tasks are somewhat different. Be as comfortable and safe as possible. Reliably hit an unprotected person from a distance of ~ 5m. He can do that. Alas, he is not capable of more. Since the 9x18 cartridge is rather weak, there is a lot of talk about the so-called. "high stopping power". In fact, the stopping power is just a percentage of the total kinetic energy of the bullet that goes to transfer the impulse of force to the human body (through a water hammer or through a large contact area is not important). Therefore, they speak of stopping power only when they are dealing with very weak pistol cartridges. There is simply no point in talking about the stopping power of the 7,62mm bullet of the TT-33 pistol. Yes, in percentage terms, it is lower than that of the Makarov cartridge 9x18, but the 7,62x25 cartridge itself fired from the TT-33 pistol is so powerful that this very stopping power is still higher than that of the PM, with several times greater penetration. The characteristics of the PM pistol are clearly selected taking into account the economy and safety of use in a crowded place. To kill only criminal, not five more people with him.
      1. -3
        17 August 2015 18: 56
        Oto and identity.
        Briefly: TT - army pistol. Inexpensive, simple, powerful.
        PM is a police weapon.
        APS is a good army pistol with a LITTLE rather weak cartridge. Redo it for P08 9x19 Para and no problem.
        1. +2
          17 August 2015 19: 47
          Quote: Seamaster
          Convert it to P08 9x19 Para and no problem



          The first time in my life I send a person to the black list because there is no strength to read this nonsense.
          1. +2
            18 August 2015 09: 47
            Quote: bunta
            Quote: Seamaster
            Convert it to P08 9x19 Para and no problem



            The first time in my life I send a person to the black list because there is no strength to read this nonsense.

            And here I am still reading this computer idiom. laughing
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 11: 37
              When there is no real reason to object to the opponent, they turn to the individual.
              At the same time inserting hardened fingers into the ears, so as not to hear the answers.
              Not from the Ukrainian warrant officers will
              1. +2
                18 August 2015 13: 17
                Ukrainian pieces do not like Mordovians. laughing
              2. +2
                18 August 2015 13: 54
                Quote: Seamaster
                When there is no real reason to object to the opponent, they turn to the individual.
                At the same time inserting hardened fingers into the ears, so as not to hear the answers.
                Not from the Ukrainian warrant officers will

                Ukrainian pieces do not like Mordovians. laughing And about the fact that Kalashnikov stole aatomat from a nemchura, does the name Fierce mean anything to you? It was under his leadership that Kalash was created, based on the design of Mikhail Timofeevich, which was unsuitable for the army, but deserved "certain consideration."
        2. -1
          18 August 2015 02: 23
          Quote: Seamaster
          Convert it to P08 9x19 Para and no problem

          P08, this is a Luger gun.
          And 9x19 mm Para, this is a cartridge.
          You are somehow more accurate with the words. How can I remake an APS pistol for a Luger pistol?
          1. -2
            18 August 2015 11: 31
            Naturally, I did not mean the REAL alteration of the APS under the cartridge 08 9x19 steam.
            I meant that the APS would be immediately released under such a cartridge.
            That was done in the programs "gyurza", "rook" and the like.
            Just do not blame me for writing that APS = "gyurza".
          2. +1
            18 August 2015 19: 05
            Quote: 190815
            P08, this is a Luger gun.

            Oh how! let it be known in Kaiser Germany that the Luger pistol was adopted at the same time and the cartridge for it accordingly received the army designation Pistole 08 and the Patrone O8 cartridge for the sake of brevity was called for the sake of brevity .... correctly P.08.
            Quote: 190815
            9x19 mm Para

            This name appeared after the war and the Germans have nothing to do with it.
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 23: 10
              Quote: gross kaput
              Luger pistol was adopted and the cartridge under it, respectively, the pistol received an army designation

              Was this also "on the fence" subtracted? There was no Pistole 08 and Patrone O8. "P" is for Parabellum. Luger firm in 1908 sold its Parabellum pistols to the German army. Abbreviated as Luger P08. And the cartridges that were created for the apistols of this model were 9x19 mm. Then, when the Germans replaced the Luger P08 with Walter, the cartridges were called 9x19 Luger / Parabellum.
              Quote: gross kaput
              Germans have nothing to do with him

              The machinations of Puerto Ricans?
              1. +2
                19 August 2015 13: 34
                Quote: 190815
                190815

                .. the first time I meet such a self-confident miracle with a complete lack of not only knowledge but also lazy to find answers so that once again not to sit down in a puddle priest.
                Quote: 190815
                "P" is

                a short educational program for gamers - in the German army from the beginning to the middle of the 20th centuries. it was customary to give official indices to small arms models as follows - letters denoted the type of weapons, numbers the year of adoption, there were exceptions, but they dated back to the Weimar Republic when the adoption of new samples was masked in every way and even then the letter indices corresponded to the class.
                G - gewer (G-98, g-43) rifle
                K (kar) - Karabiner (Kar.98a, K98k) carbine
                P - pistole (P-08, P-38) gun
                MP - Maschinen Pistole (MP-38, MP-40) submachine gun
                MG - Maschinen gewer (MG-34, MG-42) machine gun
                MK - Maschinen kanone (MK-103) automatic gun
                STG - SturmGewehr (STG-44) assault rifle
                MKb - MaschinenKarabiner (MKb-42W, MKb-42H) automatic carbine
                FG - Fallschirmjagergevehr (FG-42) airborne rifle
                Quote: 190815
                The company Luger in 1908

                For reindeer breeders I explain - there was never a Luger company - there was a talented engineer Georg Luger who redesigned Borchard's pistol back in 1900, the pistol was originally produced by DWM and received the trademark "Parabelum" - part of the Latin proverb and for one and the DWM telegraph code.
                1. 0
                  19 August 2015 16: 59
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  the first time I meet such a self-confident miracle with a complete lack of not only knowledge but also lazy to find answers so that once again not to sit down in a puddle priest.

                  Why are you talking about yourself?
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  brief educational program for gamers

                  The next paragraph is why? To the rain? It can be seen.
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  I explain to reindeer herders that Luger never existed - there was a talented engineer Georg Luger who redesigned the Borchard pistol back in 1900, the gun was originally produced by DWM

                  You are good at retelling the first paragraph of the Wiki article in your own words. Continue introducing us to Vika. We ourselves cannot.
                  For your consideration, this is not written on Wiki - Luger pistol had a mechanism similar to Borghard's pistol. These two pistols had nothing more in common. Nothing at all. A completely different weapon.
      2. -1
        18 August 2015 02: 39
        Quote: Banson
        as far as possible

        Not further than 50 m.
        Quote: Banson
        Thanks to the powerful 7,62x25 high energy cartridge

        Nonsense. The energy of the TT is below all criticism. Only 487 J. And this with his dead caliber of 7,62 mm.
        Quote: Banson
        TT-33 easily penetrates almost all known bulletproof vests

        Clear. You confused the bullet penetration with power. In this indicator, TT has something to brag about. And precisely because of the small caliber.
        Quote: Banson
        It has high accuracy firing at long distances - 50m and more.

        The usual accuracy. And further 50 m pistol is not needed.
        Quote: Banson
        Punches boards in eight layers right through, car bodies, car engine block, etc. In general, there is no better gun for the army.

        Armies punch car bodies unnecessarily. Soldiers have other tasks in battle. You correctly confused them with terminators.
        Quote: Banson
        In fact, stopping power is just a percentage of the total kinetic energy of a bullet, which is used to transmit a momentum of force to the human body (through a water hammer or through a large contact area, it does not matter). Therefore, stopping ability is only talked about when dealing with very weak pistol cartridges.

        Did you come up with this yourself? Right from start to finish? Apparently, yes. Because specific nonsense. DLC is the ability to destroy an adversary through pain shock. No need to understand the words verbatim.
        Quote: Banson
        Talking about the stopping power of a 7,62mm TT-33 pistol bullet simply makes no sense.

        Really. Indeed, in the TT cartridge this damaging factor is virtually absent.
        Quote: Banson
        Yes, in percentage terms, it is lower than that of the Makarov 9x18 cartridge, but the 7,62x25 cartridge fired from the TT-33 pistol is so powerful that this stopping ability is still higher than that of the PM, with several times more penetration.

        There is no ODP in both cartridges. But the penetration of a TT bullet is noticeably better.
        Quote: Banson
        The characteristics of the PM pistol are clearly selected taking into account the economy and safety of use in a crowded place.

        Of course. This is a cartridge for a police pistol.
        1. +1
          18 August 2015 03: 33
          When the 9x18 cartridge was received in our country there was no police and the PM was created by order of the army.
          NDP is absent only at the needle. In bullets of both calibers, it is present. Secret: even a 5,45 and 5,56 bullet has it. People complain that it is insufficient, but it is.
          In the army, it is necessary to break through both the boards and car bodies to hit the enemy behind cover.
          Are you seriously writing that the cartridge has 7,62 / 25 TOTAL 487 Joules ?!
        2. +1
          18 August 2015 08: 09
          Quote: 190815
          Really. Indeed, in the TT cartridge this damaging factor is virtually absent.

          Yah! You still say that it is impossible to kill from a TT.
          Quote: 190815
          Did you come up with this yourself? Right from start to finish? Apparently, yes. Because specific nonsense.

          That is the true truth.
          Quote: 190815
          DLC is the ability to destroy an adversary through pain shock. No need to understand the words verbatim.

          And this is nonsense.
          Quote: 190815
          The usual accuracy. And further 50 m pistol is not needed.

          The farther the better.
          Quote: 190815
          Armies punch car bodies unnecessarily. Soldiers have other tasks in battle. You correctly confused them with terminators.

          The car body is just an example. In the army, the gun should be able to the maximum punch. Will such a formulation suit you?
          Quote: 190815
          There is no ODP in both cartridges. But the penetration of a TT bullet is noticeably better.

          ODP always is present. Even in the cartridge 7,62x54R rifle SVD. There is it in the PM and in the TT-33. It's just that in the PM the cartridge is so weak that it specifically states about stopping power. In TT, it is even larger, but because of the powerful cartridge, you can not remember about it. A SVD which can penetrate armored personnel carriers. Well, when the SVD bullet hits the soft tissues of a person, it breaks all the bones that pass next. And all tissues and organs within a radius of a dozen centimeters from the wound channel turn into a mess. Unless it turned out to be lungs. That is why it is impossible to survive after hitting even the 12,7mm or 12 caliber. Because of the huge stopping power of the bullet.
          1. +1
            18 August 2015 09: 13
            Quote: Banson
            Yah! You still say that it is impossible to kill from a TT.

            These are different things. The issue of efficiency.
            Quote: Banson
            The farther the better.

            No. There are norms for which it makes no sense to go out. Otherwise, it will turn out not to be of good quality and quality, but "Soviet weapons".
            Quote: Banson
            In the army, the gun must be able to penetrate to the maximum.

            For punching, there is PTR. The pistol and small arms in general, the ability to penetrate anything is in twenty-eighth place. At least during WW2 it was like that. Now the priorities have shifted a bit. Because of the bronics.
            Quote: Banson
            DLC is always present. Even in the cartridge 7,62x54R rifle SVD.

            Do you want to compare ODP 7,62x54R with PM and TT? Don't make me laugh. Rifle cartridges of WW2 are actually more correctly called "machine-gun". ODP they have with a margin.
            Quote: Banson
            That is why it is impossible to survive after hitting even 12,7 mm or 12 gauge in principle. Because of the huge stopping power of the bullet.

            Easy to do. If far away. Or if it penetrates without damage to vital organs. Many factors will influence the actual NDP.
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 09: 40
              Quote: 190815
              These are different things. The issue of efficiency.

              The "damaging effect" you mentioned is directly related to the ability to kill a person.
              Quote: 190815
              Otherwise, it will turn out not to be of good quality and quality, but "Soviet weapons".

              It is the same. Soviet weapons are the best in the world. It is solid and high quality. I only use it. Here I have an 18,2mm semi-automatic MP-155 (12 caliber). Thing. Both in quality and performance characteristics are better than any imported guns much more expensive.
              Quote: 190815
              Not. There are norms for which it makes no sense to go out.

              No one entered the norm in 50. This is simply the limit of the effectiveness of pistol cartridges. TT-33 can surpass this distance.
              Quote: 190815
              For punching, there is PTR. The pistol and small arms in general, the ability to penetrate anything is in twenty-eighth place.

              Not on the 28, but on the 3 after accuracy and effective / aiming range.
              Quote: 190815
              Now the priorities have shifted a bit. Because of the bronics.

              Broniki and in 2MV were.
              Quote: 190815
              Easy to do.

              Yah? Have you tried it?
              Quote: 190815
              Or if it penetrates without damage to vital organs.

              And this cannot be even with "right through". The hole of the wound channel is yes - small. Will coincide with the caliber 7,62 most likely. But everything within a radius of 10cm will be turned into a bloody mess. And the bones are all broken and crumbled, and without direct contact of the bullet with them. That is, it's like cutting out a pipe with a diameter of 20 cm from you. Well, the 12th gauge is definitely death. What is good about a smoothbore gun is that it is enough to hit the enemy from it only once.
              Quote: 190815
              Rifle cartridges since WW2 are actually more correctly called "machine-gun".

              Hmm ... He always. And then and now it is called a machine-gun rifle.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. +1
              20 August 2015 02: 01
              I feel that I'm prepared but superficially. Otherwise, the dear would have known that 487 joules for a pistol is not "all" but VERY DEEP. And also do not confuse the energy of the cartridge and the energy of the cartridge on a particular barrel. And please, don't be silly about the weak stopping effect of the 7,62 / 25 cartridge. This is a cartridge for a combat pistol. The task of which is to disable the enemy no matter how. And accuracy combined with range is more important than stopping power. Oh yeah .. You somehow did not speak very flatteringly about the accuracy of the TT pistol. Sorry, I'll ask a counter question. Have you ever fired from it yourself? I have happened here and, God forbid, will happen many more times, since I am familiar with this machine at the owner's level. And there is also something to compare with. Range ... The pistol was designed for a range of 50 meters. For the sake of interest, they shot at 100. With some practice, you can hit the growth target quite confidently. The strong toss of the barrel is a little discouraging, but this is a purely constructive feature of the loading system. good pistol in one word.
              1. 0
                20 August 2015 02: 21
                Quote: tracer
                Here I feel that it is prepared but on the surface

                Seryoga, namesake, don't bother. Well done, that noticed, there are so many "specialists" ... TT was and always remains a beautiful and worthwhile pistol. This is not up for discussion! IMHO!
              2. 0
                30 December 2015 15: 32
                Quote: tracer
                And I ask you, do not say nonsense about the weak stopping action of the cartridge 7,62 / 25. This is a cartridge for a combat pistol. The task of which disable the enemy does not matter how.

                this is a cartridge for a light carbine for travelers, this is how it was created by Mauser for his carbine pistol. But the fact that it was adopted into the USSR as a pistol one 40 years after its creation does not cancel its initial drawbacks - the low stopping effect of a small wound canal.
      3. 0
        18 August 2015 13: 02
        Quote: Banson
        And the TT-33 pistol meets these requirements as well as possible. Thanks to the powerful 7,62x25 cartridge with high energy and an initial speed of 420 m / s, the TT-33 pistol can easily penetrate almost all known body armor

        Up to the third class of defense - in war they usually use 5-6 class armor plates which are not for the teeth of any pistols. laughing
        Quote: Banson
        It has high accuracy firing at long distances - 50m and more

        why not 500 or 1000 - do not be shy, take more laughing only for some reason, typical exercises for firing a pistol no more than 25 meters - probably you did not consult laughing
        Quote: Banson
        Punches boards in eight layers right through, car bodies, car engine block, etc. In general, there is no better gun for the army.

        The rail neck has been forgotten for the full picture. laughing Probably the creators of the "barricade" cartridge for the KS-23 forgot about the wonderful TT cartridge and began to fence the garden with a heavy blank to destroy the cylinder block.
        1. 0
          18 August 2015 15: 06
          Quote: gross kaput
          Up to the third class of defense - in war they usually use 5-6 class armor plates which are not for the teeth of any pistols.

          TT will strike.
          Quote: gross kaput
          why not 500 or 1000 - do not be shy, take more

          50 meters for TT is normal. Sighting range of submachine guns PPSh-41 and PPS-43 with the same cartridge - 350m. The MP-38 and MP-40 with 9x19 have only 140m.
          Quote: gross kaput
          only for some reason, typical exercises for firing a pistol no more than 25 meters - probably you did not consult

          25 this is for PM. And then a bit too much.
          Quote: gross kaput
          The rail neck has been forgotten for the full picture.

          The neck of the rails may not break. AKM can break through.
          Quote: gross kaput
          Probably the creators of the "barricade" cartridge for the KS-23 forgot about the wonderful TT cartridge

          Dear KS-23 has not been adopted. Do not run ahead of the engine. But the TT was in service for many years. Officially. And unofficially - is in service so far i.e. already 85 years old.
          1. 0
            18 August 2015 15: 50
            I’m just in a ... I haven’t seen such a vinaigrette for a long time. Baby, how old are you?
            Quote: Banson
            TT will strike.

            already grade 3 confidently holds the AK-74 with 7n6, i.e. following Benson’s logic, class 6 armor holding an SVD with 10 meters of B-32 armor-piercing bullet will be penetrated by Teshnik in the light? Yes, damn it clinic! fool
            Quote: Banson
            50 meters for TT is normal.

            A child of 50 meters is too much for any pistol, regardless of the cartridge, the exception is only with an attached holster, and this is not connected with the cartridge but with the capabilities of the average shooter, there are individuals who manage to get into the growth at 100 meters but write NSD and KS not for them but for an ordinary officer / user.
            Quote: Banson
            Dear KS-23 is not accepted for service.

            For schoolchildren I will reveal a terrible secret KS-23 was adopted by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the KGB of the USSR as far back as 30 years ago, in the database zones the FSB and the MVD of the Ministry of Internal Affairs are currently actively using them.
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 16: 11
              Quote: gross kaput
              already the 3 class confidently holds the AK-74 with 7н6,

              Forgot to mention from what distance. When firing point-blank from 7,62mm AKM no body armor will protect you. It does not pierce, it does not matter. The main thing is that it will kill anyway (I will not say about the 5,45mm AK-74). Armor is not always a blessing. It depends on what and how it gets. Sometimes such severe injuries are inflicted that just a "hole" would be preferable.
              Quote: gross kaput
              50 baby is too much for any pistol, regardless of cartridge,

              O-Great, you are not talking to "kids" here.
              Quote: gross kaput
              For schoolchildren I will reveal a terrible secret KS-23 was adopted by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the KGB of the USSR as far back as 30 years ago, in the database zones the FSB and the MVD of the Ministry of Internal Affairs are currently actively using them.

              I'm talking about a gun, not about a smoothbore carbine of the same name. What is the point of comparing a large-caliber smoothbore with pistols?
              1. 0
                18 August 2015 17: 01
                Quote: Banson
                When shooting point-blank from 7,62mm AKM, no body armor will protect you

                I don’t even want to comment - i.e. people who wrote the classification of NIB, who created b / w 4 classes and above, as well as people who received B / w data for supply were in collusion ?! In fact, these b / w Kula are not suitable ?! From it Th Mikhalych! laughing
                Quote: Banson
                O-Great, you are not talking to "kids" here.

                So if a person gains knowledge from computer games and he also sticks it out, then according to his mental development he is a child no matter what is written in the passport. laughing
                Quote: Banson
                I'm talking about the gun

                Shaw is such a gun? well smoke enlighten me what kind of beast laughing
                Quote: Banson
                What is the point of comparing a large-caliber smoothbore with pistols?

                Since the KS-23 has a cartridge with a "barricade" bullet in the B / K, which was created, among other things, for "stopping vehicles by partially damaging them" and speaking simply for the destruction of the cylinder block, the creators probably did not know what to do with TT pistols? laughing
                1. 0
                  18 August 2015 17: 46
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  I don’t even want to comment - i.e. people who wrote the NIB classification, who created second-hand 4 class and above, as well as people who received B / W data for supply were in collusion ?!

                  No, not in collusion. From some distance he will protect. But not point blank. At point blank AKM will kill without even breaking through.
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  So if a person gains knowledge from computer games

                  I'm not from computer games.
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  Shaw is such a gun? well smoke enlighten me what kind of beast

                  I thought you were talking about some kind of new pistol.
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  Since the KS-23 has a cartridge with a "barricade" bullet in the B / K, which was created, among other things, for "stopping vehicles by partially damaging them" and speaking simply for the destruction of the cylinder block, the creators probably did not know what to do with TT pistols?

                  For the police. Yes. They do not have TT-33 and all kinds of GYURZA in service there. Of the pistols, only PM and PP based on 9x18 cartridges. In such a situation, the KS-23 with this bullet is justified. But TT-33 will be able to break through the engine block of the car. And the PB-4 rubber bullets even pierce the car body. And these bullets ... A man on the Hansa gives 30 pieces to someone who, with 100, will put five bullets of 12 caliber in the A4 sheet. Now I'm working on it. I want for my MP-155 to make feathered armor-piercing-subcaliber BOPs (like tank ones), well, like ZENIT with which my MP-155 gun will have accuracy and range of a sniper, with immeasurably greater power and breakdown power. And I’ll take 30 pieces. The coulter only needs to be bought.
                  1. 0
                    18 August 2015 18: 10
                    Quote: Banson
                    At point blank AKM will kill without even breaking through.

                    Once again, the manufacturer guarantees that for the 4th protection class, the b / w will protect it from a bullet fired from AKM from 10 meters, for the 5th it is only an armor-piercing bullet, for the 6th SVD from the same 10 meters with an armor-piercing bullet At the same time, the B-32 is guaranteed not only not to break through, but also that the level of backward injury will not be critical - i.e. For example, a hit from an SVD from 10 meters will not be fatal, but from an AKM with half the energy it will be deadly even if there is no through penetration? what do you smoke there? laughing
                    Quote: Banson
                    for the police. Yes. They don’t have a TT-33 and there are all kinds of GYURZA in service

                    No one is armed with arms, but the ATP in the special forces and others laughing
                    Quote: Banson
                    Of the pistols, only PM and PP based on cartridges 9x18

                    You make me laugh more and more besides the domestic one and the full import under 9X19 - glocks, Chezetas and even in one place the ultrasound was overloaded.
                    1. 0
                      18 August 2015 18: 19
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      Once again, the manufacturer guarantees that for the 4-th protection class, the b / w will protect against a bullet fired from AKM from 10 meters, for the 5-th only the bullet is armor-piercing, for the 6-th SVD from the same 10 meters with an armor-piercing bullet B-32 is guaranteed not only not breaking but also that the level of backward injury will not be critical

                      But how to do it? AS? To pierce that - will not pierce. But the person will be killed in the whole body armor. It's just a law of physics. AKM - 2019J with an extremely safe 7,5J ... Well, what is it about this bulletproof vest that makes the level of over-the-counter injury "not critical"? According to the law of Physics, only one thing can be done - to increase the mass of this armor kilogram so up to a hundred ...
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      No one is armed with arms, but the ATP in the special forces and others

                      SPS is a very powerful gun. More powerful than the TT-33.
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      You make me laugh more and more besides the domestic one and the full import under 9X19 - glocks, Chezetas and even in one place the ultrasound was overloaded.

                      And this is very bad. You can not depend on imports, especially since our domestic weapons are the best in the world. My friend the policeman with KEDR went here all. Under the PMM.
                  2. 0
                    19 August 2015 00: 08
                    Look at the bullet of Sovestri.
            2. 0
              26 November 2015 17: 21
              Quote: gross kaput
              A child of 50 meters is too much for any pistol, regardless of the cartridge, the exception is only with an attached holster

              And you are a rare boor. Rude to everyone.
              In addition, you are poorly informed on the merits of the issue. 50 m, this is the normal effective fire range for ANY NORMAL army pistol. And without any added holster.
              The fact that PMs are performed from 25 m is explained simply, such a gun. It is impossible to call it NORMAL army even with a great desire. This is an official police pistol, which somehow ended up in the army.
          2. 0
            18 August 2015 23: 38
            Quote: Banson
            Sighting range of submachine guns PPSh-41 and PPS-43 with the same cartridge - 350m. MP-38 and MP-40 with 9x19 have only 140m.

            My dear. You are not watching "war movies". they say a lot of funny things. A very unimportant and dead PP MP-40 is guaranteed to "lay" a person from 60m. This is very small, for a normal PP the norm is 100 m. At the same time, the PPSh-41 and PPS-43 do the same with a maximum of 30 m. And all because of the dead TT cartridge.
            Quote: Banson
            50 meters for TT normal

            What is normal? Punches a piece of paper on a target? War is not a sport. And man, this is not a piece of paper.
            Quote: Banson
            But the TT was in service for many years.

            In fact, almost did not stand. 18 years in production, it is more eloquent than any words. Translated into Russian means that the weapon turned out to be fig. Good weapons have been made for centuries. Colt 1911 has been released for over 100 years. Walter is released for 77 years. Etc.
            1. 0
              19 August 2015 00: 18
              That is, you are one so smart and all the other fools that armed themselves with shit for 18 years, and still produce TT in Yugoslavia and China? And PPSh until 90 years was in the railway guard tunnels.
              Walter is not a gun, but a company. Colt 1911 has long been out of service. There are pistols for this caliber much better and more reliable.
              Weapons under a dead cartridge 7,62 / 25 which stupid uncles have adopted twice the aiming range, which means the possibility of defeat.
              1. 0
                19 August 2015 01: 01
                Quote: Izotovp
                So you're the only one so smart

                Not alone. Unfortunately. winked
                Quote: Izotovp
                and all the other fools that armed themselves with shit for 18 years, and still produce TT in Yugoslavia and China

                And what are these centers of world civilization? Maybe still in Burkina Faso produce. So what? There is an immeasurable amount of cheap ammunition (the USSR has thrilled for the rest of his life), there will be weapons for them.
                Quote: Izotovp
                Walter is not a gun

                And what? Intercontinental rocket?
                Quote: Izotovp
                Colt 1911 has long been out of service

                It is still in service with special forces.
                Quote: Izotovp
                There are pistols for this caliber much better and more reliable.

                Let me guess. TT special? wink
                Quote: Izotovp
                twice the sighting range

                With what fright? You watched the power of his shot? Take a look and calm down. Or go for "22x benefits." For greater reliability.
                Quote: Izotovp
                and therefore the possibility of defeat

                Army weapons have the goal of destroying the enemy. And not his defeat. These are different things.
                1. 0
                  19 August 2015 01: 25
                  Once again for a particularly talented: Walter is the name of the company !!
                  Actually, China is one of the centers of world civilization, let it be known to you.
                  For example, Glock pistols, Zig-Sauer, HK.
                  Do you know such a thing as ballistics? The speed of the bullet is 7,62 / 25, its mass is less, the caliber is less, which means less air resistance and the trajectory is more gentle, which provides a greater aiming range and preservation of kinetic energy ... damn ... you have to sound such basics instead of poking with your nose to tabular data !!!
                  Destruction? Annihilation or what? It is the defeat that is inflicted on the enemy in a different way: kinetic, chemical, radiation, and so on ...
                  1. 0
                    19 August 2015 11: 02
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    Once again for a particularly talented: Walter is the name of the company

                    Oh really? And then Walther P38 (Walter P38)? And then Walther PP, Walther PPK? Do not write nonsense.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    Actually, China is one of the centers of world civilization, let it be known to you

                    Gee-gee. They made fun.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    Do you know such a thing as ballistics? The bullet speed is 7,62 / 25 higher, its mass is less, the caliber is less, which means less air resistance and the trajectory is more gentle, which provides a greater aiming range and preservation of kinetic energy ... damn ... you have to sound such basics instead of poking with your nose in tabular data

                    My friend, why are you writing nonsense? There is such a thing as balance. For army pistols 80-90 years ago, the formula for this balance was derived. This is a caliber of 9 mm (actually 8,8 mm) and a muzzle energy of 500-550 J.
                    Exactly the same balance formula is derived for the "American" caliber 11,23 mm (45th caliber). But now it's not about him.
                    For a 7,62 mm caliber for an army pistol, such a formula has not been derived. Because then you will have to make a weapon with a capacity of about 700 J. Which will dislocate your hand, my friend. Therefore, it is impossible to create an effective army weapon in the caliber of 7,62 mm. And NO ONE IN THE WORLD made such weapons FOR THE ARMY. Except the sly-assed Bolsheviks. Which "did not finish the academies." But they too quickly realized that they were wrong. And TT was removed from production after 18 years. Is that clear to you?
                    And the second is funny calculations ... So you are an army of small arms. Persistence and air resistance will be even better. But how many little things will you destroy enemies?
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    It is the defeat that is inflicted on the enemy in a different way: kinetic, chemical, radiation, and so on ...

                    I love to hear about the radiation method of destroying the enemy through small arms. Start ...
                    And then do not forget to study the damaging factors of small arms. You need it, you're clearly not in the know.
                    1. 0
                      19 August 2015 12: 41
                      I have listed generally damaging factors.
                      Walter is a company, and then you begin to bring models: p38, ppk ...
                      Let it be known to you that it was not the Bolsheviks who created the weapons, but the designers, who were far from always in the party and had a good profile education.
                      Have you heard about the M96 MXNUMX? And who created it and what caliber was it?
                      Hmm ... what caliber is the little thing? What caliber does the ak-74 t m-16 have? What calibres does the hk mp7 have, the pss pistol, the fn p90 and fn five seven? What is the caliber of modern Chinese machines? In addition to aplomb, do you have something in your head? For you, China is already not one of the centers of world civilization, but a backwater?
                      I know a lot about things, including things like wound ballistics, which you probably haven’t heard about at all. And about laser pistols for our astronauts .... I'm afraid you won’t believe it at all, but oh well, I’ve just studied at the academy according to profile ...)))
                      1. 0
                        19 August 2015 16: 38
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        I have listed generally damaging factors.

                        But why?
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        Walter is a company, and then you begin to bring models: p38, ppk.

                        Subtle life observation ...
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        Let it be known to you that it was not the Bolsheviks who created the weapons, but the designers, who by no means always consisted in the party

                        I like the picture you painted. The designer sits on a chair and picks his finger in his nose. Then he suddenly decides whether I should create something from nefig.
                        In fact, it was not like that. The weapons were created by "strategists in red pants with a three-year education." And the same designers acted as a working tool for them.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        and had a good profile education.

                        Specifically. Which of the designers and GAU had a specialized education? Specifically and by last name. Except Fedorov. Which, although somewhere there he studied. But, apparently, he didn’t finish his studies. Or, as a second option, it was untrained.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        Have you heard about the M96 MXNUMX? And who created it and what caliber was it?

                        So what? This again, why are you?
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        In addition to aplomb, do you have something in your head?

                        There is. And you?
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        For you, China is already not one of the centers of world civilization, but a backwater?

                        He is like that for the whole world. The usual outback. World backyards.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        like wound ballistics

                        So I have never heard anything about a computer in my life. Where am I going ...
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        I then just at the academy then studied so to speak on the profile

                        This information is nothing. You can learn and not learn anything. But on the contrary, it is impossible. So life is a complicated thing. wassat
                      2. 0
                        19 August 2015 17: 24
                        Quote: 190815
                        Specifically. Which of the designers and GAU had a specialized education? Specifically and by last name.

                        Red deer ran into our forest laughing
                        Son and tell me which of the Western designers at that time had a "profile" education - I'll even make it easier for you - Browning? Duc no church school, Paul Mauser - duc even past - elementary school, H. Maxim? Duc also primary school, Hugo Schmeiser? and here by the ticket office, Georg Luger and here is just a primary school. So taaish, before creating an alternative history, it would not be a sin to teach a real one
                      3. 0
                        19 August 2015 17: 39
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        To son and tell me which of the Western designers at that time had a "profile" education

                        PPC. Everything is mixed in one pile. People do not understand the difference between inventors and designers. And he compares people truly deserved with promoted people.
                        My dear what Schmeiser has created, do not remind me? I forgot something. Sturmgever-44? So this is a very dubious "invention". Nobody in the world except the USSR tries not to. Yes, and he refused such weapons in the 70s of the last century. And the MP series was completely bullshit. Because of the Para cartridge. During WW2 he was of little use. And the weapon on it was the same. Better than on a TT cartridge. But also, it was very far from ideal.
                      4. 0
                        19 August 2015 17: 58
                        Is your surname Kuptsov by chance? otherwise it is very similar to this comrade who, between hard drinking and treatment in a durka, sprinkled "Unknown Weapon History" laughing
                      5. 0
                        19 August 2015 19: 06
                        He at least sprinkled something. And what are you famous for? Funny comments on the forums? You have something to congratulate.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. 0
                        19 August 2015 18: 01
                        What weapons did the USSR abandon in the 70s, can you recall?
                        Which pistol cartridge do you think is ideal?
                        There is no such series of MP. This is short for machine gun. And under 9 * 19 submachine guns are still being produced. Including one of the best is mp-5.
                      8. -1
                        19 August 2015 19: 03
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        What weapons did the USSR abandon in the 70s, can you recall?

                        From "the most ingenious weapon of all times and peoples." If you do not understand, then from the Kalashikov assault rifle. It was more or less original. True, only in the USSR it was needed, no one else produced such ersatz.
                        And the AK-74, this is not the original. This is a variation on the theme of M16A1. The ballistic variation is not very successful. The Communists hastened and did not guess. Displaced in the wrong direction. Therefore, the AK-74 loses the M16A1. The situation became very bad with the release of M16A2. Despite the similar indexes, this is a completely different weapon. Here, the AK-74 has no chance at all.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        And under 9 * 19 submachine guns are still being produced.

                        So the Walter pistol is released under the cartridge 9x19 mm. Only this is another Walter gun. Because the other cartridge is 9x19 mm. The dimensions are the same, but the powder is different. Not the same as in the times of 2MB. And the ballistics is different. All weapons on this new cartridge.
                        Teach the materiel, my dear.
                      9. 0
                        19 August 2015 23: 30
                        That is, you are an anti-communist and everything that happened in the period 1917-1991 is evil? Poor, sick child !! Who has raped your brain like that?
                        "Stalin took the country with a plow, and left with an atomic bomb" W. Churchill.
                        In the 70s, they did not completely abandon the cartridge 7,62 * 39. It is still in service and I had a submachine gun for this caliber in 1991. Automatic machines for it are produced both in our country: AEC-971, AK-104, and abroad, for example FN SCAR-H, and in Bulgaria at the Arsenal plant, and more recently in the USA they started production of AK-47 due to the introduction sanctions. Therefore, stop them making people laugh, Polygraph Poligrafovich. Fuck about what kind of machine is the best-everlasting topic, but for comparison: m-16 in various versions produced about 6 million pieces. Ak-order of 100 million! If this is not an argument for you ....
                        By the way, our neighbors, the Finns are armed with Kalash precisely under 7 * 62, my dear)))
                      10. 0
                        20 August 2015 12: 28
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        oh are you anti-communist and everything that happened in the period 1917-1991 is evil

                        Since 1918 The Bolshevik coup occurred in January 1918. By breaking up the Constituent Assembly. As a result of this, their crime began a bloody and destructive Civil War. It was not even a war, it was a national disaster. And especially this concerns its results.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        Who has raped your brain like that?

                        Pot calls the kettle black.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        "Stalin took the country with a plow, and left with an atomic bomb" W. Churchill.

                        Lenin’s. Stalin took the country from Lenin. Which in a short time turned it into almost complete sucks. No, it was not the center of world civilization even before Lenin. But a strong middle peasant, was. After Lenin and other communists, one could only dream of it.
                        And it’s not easy to eat a bomb. This bomb was worth so many lives of compatriots. Inequal exchange.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        In the 70s, they did not completely abandon the cartridge 7,62 * 39

                        Do not misinterpret. It was written about the AK-47, and not about the cartridge. The cartridge will be released for a long time. Until the weapons are completely eradicated under it.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        It is still in service and I had a submachine gun for this caliber in 1991.

                        Would you like everyone to go under the press right away? Of course, the communist system was senile. But not to that extent.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        Automatic machines for it are produced both in our country: AEC-971, AK-104, and abroad, for example FN SCAR-H, and in Bulgaria at the Arsenal plant, and more recently in the USA they started production of AK-47 due to the introduction sanctions.

                        Is this the main army weapon of these countries? Are you able to understand the essence of the topic of conversation?
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        Fuck about what kind of machine is the best-everlasting topic, but for comparison: m-16 in various versions produced about 6 million pieces. Ak-order of 100 million!

                        To begin with, do not confuse a member with a finger. AK was produced in two types. And this is a completely different weapon. M-16 can only be compared with the AK-74 and its modifications. In addition, I absolutely do not understand the argument about quantity. What is it for? Why did you write this? Hinting that the more the better the weapons? Rave.
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        By the way, our neighbors, the Finns, are armed with Kalash precisely under 7 * 62, my dear

                        What is the main army weaponry? Did you come up with this yourself?
                      11. The comment was deleted.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
            2. -1
              19 August 2015 13: 37
              Quote: 190815
              ... You are not watching "war movies". they say a lot of funny things. A very unimportant and dead PP MP-40 is guaranteed to "lay" a person from 60m. This is very small, for a normal PP the norm is 100 m.At the same time, PPSh-41 and PPS-43 do the same with a maximum of 30 m.

              Shaw child in airsoft outplayed? laughing
              1. 0
                19 August 2015 17: 03
                Quote: gross kaput
                Shaw child in airsoft outplayed

                Read books, ignoramus. And it will open to you.
                Or maybe it won’t open. You read the manual on DP. But I did not understand that this is an automatic rifle. Although it is written there in black and white. Until I poked you with your nose, you never saw.
                No, don’t read books better. Only you will lose time in vain.
                1. 0
                  19 August 2015 18: 17
                  Quote: 190815
                  But I did not understand that this is an automatic rifle.

                  Do not tell Bren, Lewis, MG-13, ZB-26 also author. rifles?
                  1. 0
                    19 August 2015 19: 13
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    Do not tell Bren, Lewis, MG-13, ZB-26 also author. rifles?

                    I will not prompt. I do not want. Learn the materiel. There is the answer to your question.
                    But for you there is no free cheese. And will not be. Behave badly.
      4. 0
        18 August 2015 13: 31
        Quote: Banson
        As for the "cop" pistol PM, its tasks are somewhat different. Be as comfortable and safe as possible. Reliably hit an unprotected person from a distance of ~ 5m. He can do that. Alas, he is not capable of more.

        Are you probably judging this by computer games or by the pearls of the same Internet theorists? If you carefully read the Internet resources, the opinions on the PM are diametrically opposed; some yell like a low-power one. others, on the contrary, consider the PM a good gun - while the first judge about it by the pearls of the same grief of theorists and the second real users. Regarding real and not computer use - over 10 years, any statistics on PM accumulated - a shot from 3 meters through the side door А / М fragment of the femur fragmented through the peritoneum, the person died 3 days later, a distance of about 20 m. Hit the knee bend - complete destruction of the knee joint, the cup was torn out by a bullet, a shot from 1 m a bullet pierced the side window of a / m entered the skull from the temporal part, through the crown pierced the head restraint, the rear seat and one wall of the rack, then fell into the body cavity. distance of about 40 meters a bullet pierced the rear window of a / m
        the headrest and hitting the back of the head killed the driver.
        1. 0
          18 August 2015 15: 03
          Quote: gross kaput
          Regarding real and not computer use - over 10 years, no statistics on PM have accumulated - a shot from 3 meters through the side door А / М fragment of the femur pierced the peritoneum, the person died in 3 days, a distance of the order of 20 m. Hit the knee bend - complete destruction of the knee joint, the cup was torn out by a bullet, a shot from the 1 bullet pierced the side window of the a / m entered the skull from the temporal part, went out through the crown, pierced the headrest, back seat and one wall of the rack, then fell into the body cavity. distance of the order of 40 meters a bullet pierced the rear window of a / m
          the headrest and hitting the back of the head killed the driver.

          And what? Fine. Do you think the TT will be different? Killers then always choose TT and not casual.
          Quote: gross kaput
          If you carefully read the Internet resources, the opinions on the PM are diametrically opposed; some yell like a low-power one. others, on the contrary, consider PM a good gun -

          Yes. I also think that PM as a cop is a great gun. Better TT. But as an army and criminal - TT is better and do not even try to convince.
          1. 0
            18 August 2015 15: 59
            Quote: Banson
            Killers then always choose TT and not casual.

            Those. do you think there is a specialized store for killers? In fact, the popularity of TT at the beginning of 90's in crime is explained simply:
            A huge number of them were in the mob.reserve warehouse from where it is much easier to pick weapons, in addition, many of these warehouses remained in independent semi-anarchic states from where they began to dissolve in crime, during the same period, "black trackers" became active - as I hope you understand to find PM on the place of WWII battles is difficult - there are more TT and Nagana. In addition, a huge part of the criminal TT came from Poland - the Poles sold them semi-legally to Lithuania from where they entered the Russian Federation illegally through the visibility of the border. As soon as it was decided to withdraw from the population 6P42 - gas PM of the first releases - a huge amount of them was immediately "lost" by the owners, and in the early 2000s, the re-shot 6P42 became the most popular criminal pistol.
            Hence the advice - do not read the yellow press for the night there is also not write.
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 16: 13
              Quote: gross kaput
              Those. do you think there is a specialized store for killers? In fact, the popularity of TT at the beginning of 90's in crime is explained simply:

              Well, of course. Any more or less organized crime group has its own arsenal and their regular killers have no special problems with the choice of weapons. It is unlikely that the choice of TT is due only to its mass character.
              1. 0
                18 August 2015 17: 04
                The arsenal of any "more-decent organized criminal group" is not purchased in the store, so leave these stories for peers on the bench, a sufficient number of seized trunks passed through my hands to have my own opinion, and if it does not coincide with the opinion of journalists Duc is not my problem.
                1. 0
                  18 August 2015 17: 49
                  No, not in the store naturally. But PM was never held in high esteem there. And personally me from this PM is just sick. Pukalka she is a pukalka. Though comfortable. Though reliable.
                  1. 0
                    18 August 2015 18: 47
                    Quote: Banson
                    And personally, I just feel sick from this PM

                    Well, to whom the mare’s bride laughing Deck Yesen stump in comp. PM games are usually not ice laughing
          2. -1
            18 August 2015 16: 06
            Quote: Banson
            . And here’s how the army

            Once again, for those in the tank - the officer's main weapon is the head, if the officer begins to personally participate in the battle, then everything goes wrong, but in this case he uses a machine gun, a pistol for an army officer is a "last chance weapon" and for him the main thing is small weight and dimensions and reliability. For spetsnaz, everything is somewhat different - there it is an additional weapon that is usually used to inspect premises and for actions in confined spaces.
            1. 0
              18 August 2015 16: 17
              Quote: gross kaput
              For special forces, everything is somewhat different - there it is an additional weapon that is usually used to search rooms and for operations in confined spaces.

              But for the special forces there is nothing better than the TT-33. And besides him there are tankers, pilots, rocket launchers, etc. Of course, they are armed with the AKS-74U, but the gun should also be in your pocket. And the more powerful, the better.
              Quote: gross kaput
              the main weapon of the officer is the head, if the officer begins to personally participate in the battle, then everything goes wrong

              It seems I did not call any of the officers to be the first to run into the attack shouting Hurray! and shooting from a pistol. Iron eggs must have. There are a lot of brutal men (outwardly), but iron commanders mainly had iron eggs.
              Quote: gross kaput
              a pistol for an army officer is a "weapon of the last chance" and for him the main thing is light weight and dimensions and reliability.

              Or the maximum high performance characteristics? From PM if the enemy in an armored suit shoot at least point-blank. He won’t even throw him away.
            2. 0
              18 August 2015 22: 59
              Quote: gross kaput
              a pistol for an army officer is a "last chance weapon"

              And what, there is a weapon of the penultimate chance? And the penultimate one? Don't talk nonsense. An army pistol is an officer's self-defense weapon. Unlike service army pistols (revolvers). This is the weapon of the "specialists".
            3. -1
              26 November 2015 17: 55
              Quote: gross kaput
              if an officer begins to personally participate in a battle, then everything goes wrong, but even in this case he uses a machine gun, a pistol for an army officer is a "last chance weapon" and for him the main thing is light weight, dimensions and reliability.

              You, when writing such things, specify Soviet officer. Because neither the Red Army, nor the SA did not bother to equip their officers with high-quality weapons, they were forced to use machine guns and assault rifles in battle if necessary.
              The officer of the "bourgeois states" did not have such a need.
              The Germans during the Second World War were armed, though not very good, but quite tolerant Walters.
              The Americans were armed with the completely freaky M1911. Which even at the range of a direct shot at a growth figure (195 m) flawlessly knocked down the enemy forever. Of course, the theoretical range. To get out of a pistol at such a distance is extremely unlikely. But closer, it’s possible. Moreover, the range of a direct shot at the chest figure was very impressive 143 m. That's just the return ...
              Russian officers already have PJs. Therefore, they also do not need machines. Although those who are not in the know can carry them along. There are enough eccentrics in the world.
            4. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          26 November 2015 17: 29
          Quote: gross kaput
          a shot from 3 meters through the side door A / M the femur was fragmented, fragments pierced the peritoneum, the person died after 3 days, a distance of about 20 m. hit the knee - the knee joint was completely destroyed by a bullet, a shot from 1 m bullet pierced the side window of a / m entered the skull from the temporal part, went through the crown, pierced the head restraint, the back seat and one wall of the rack, and then fell into the body cavity. a distance of about 40 meters, a bullet pierced the rear window of the a / m headrest and, having hit the back of the head, killed the driver.

          If you wanted to make us laugh with your "arguments", then consider that you succeeded. Java about the same selection I can make on the "small". Then you will think of it as an army pistol on this cartridge.
          You even have an amateur approach. You absolutely do not understand that statistics does not matter. Exactly the same as the opinion of users. Completely different people and factors will determine whether a quality weapon or not. Those theorists. Just not sofas like you.
    2. -1
      18 August 2015 02: 42
      Quote: gross kaput
      do not list-lt what typical tasks the "army" pistol should perform?

      Destroy enemy manpower. As effective as possible. TT is not good with this. Narpimer, one of the damaging factors that stops the action of a bullet is completely absent. How is that even possible?
      1. 0
        18 August 2015 13: 09
        Quote: 190815
        Destroy enemy manpower. As effective as possible. TT is not good with this. Narpimer, one of the damaging factors is completely absent, stop action bullets. How is that even possible?

        Who told you what is missing? You don’t even understand what it is. A rough bullet falling into the human body has a certain energy. Part of this energy is spent on breaking through the body, and part on transferring an impulse of force to this body. And this ratio of first and second order energies is a stopping ability. Which is always different depending on the body the bullet hits. For example, if even an SVD bullet hits a tank’s armor, its stopping ability will be for all 100% of its energy. And if you shoot from a PM into a snowman, all 100% of the energy will go into penetration. When shooting at a person, the TT bullet has a completely normal stopping ability. Let low relative to its own kinetic energy, but by pistol standards it’s quite normal. From TT-33 it is very difficult not to kill a person. After all, the killer’s favorite weapon.
        1. 0
          18 August 2015 23: 28
          Quote: Banson
          And this ratio of first and second order energies is the stopping power

          You know how to make fun. DLC is the amount of energy transferred by a bullet to a person’s body over a certain period of time. Task effective army weapons is to achieve the level of so-called pain shock. Which leads to death without damage to vital organs.
          In ineffective weapons (TT, PM), this damaging factor is completely absent. Therefore, when shooting from them, you need to focus only on damage to vital organs. Accordingly, they cope worse with their task, the destruction of the enemy’s manpower, than an effective weapon.
          In addition to effective and ineffective weapons, there are still plenty of partially effective weapons (ersatz). These are all weapons on pistol, carbine and intermediate cartridges. With classic bullets.
          Weapons on new bullets (M16, AK-74 and Chinese counterparts) stand apart here. They have a different principle of defeat. Therefore, with the power of the intermediate cartridge, the effectiveness of the rifle cartridge is achieved.
  32. +2
    17 August 2015 19: 06
    Quote: Seamaster
    APS is a good army pistol with a LITTLE rather weak cartridge.

    With a very "weak" cartridge, I would say. The situation is somewhat corrected by a long barrel, but it still cannot make a TT out of APS.
    Quote: Seamaster
    Redo it under P08 9x19 Para and there are no problems.

    It is also quite average in power. Better for our 7,62x25. There will be a submachine gun in essence in the dimensions of the gun.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      17 August 2015 19: 54
      And the store capacity will increase. Yes .. If the APS is remade under 7,62 / 25 prices, it will not. I am sure that PL 14 will be made for it too. Because any shooter, an athlete or a soldier, or just a connoisseur or lover of weapons knows that the resource 7,62 / 25 is far from exhausted. This patron has gone into the future, not the past. Look at the most advanced developments such as FN (FN Five Seven 5/7) look at the concept of weapons. The trajectory of the bullet is straightened as much as possible, the accuracy is maximized, the recoil is reduced, and the magazine capacity is increased. The question WHY? After all, there are 45 ACPs .... whose stopping effect is simply incomparable with smaller calibers even 9/19 para. The truth is that a combat pistol should shoot as far as possible, hit the enemy (not necessarily turn it into mince) behind possible cover and personal means of protection from bullets. Everything is very simple. Therefore, you CANNOT COMPARE PM AND TT !!! These are different pistols, each of which is created according to its own conceptology from start to finish. For example, an army pistol is more interesting for me, since its tasks are more flexible and versatile. And comparing the certainly excellent Smith & Wesson MP 9 pro series pistol with the "strange" TT, I can say as a practicing shooter with 30 years of experience, which in terms of accuracy, ease of aiming and accuracy of the TT 1954 (Tula) leaves behind the eminent competitor born in 2015.
      1. 0
        18 August 2015 01: 59
        APS 9x19 "Spider". Created today. Gas brake applied. Without it, a free-gate circuit can only handle up to 9x18 in power.
        Regarding the adoption of 7,62 ... yes, the familiar caliber also played a role, but when issuing the TTZ for the development of the pistol, many cartridges were tested up to .45. 7,62 / 25 was recognized as the best at that time.
        After the war, they switched to 9x18 precisely on the basis of an analysis of the use of a pistol during the war. At that time there were still very few armor plates and at real pistol fire distances (5-10) meters PM was enough.
        1. 0
          18 August 2015 02: 19
          Quote: Izotovp
          yes, the familiar caliber also played a role

          What is this argument?
          Quote: Izotovp
          but when issuing a TTZ for the development of a pistol, many rounds were tested up to .45.

          There were no tests. And it could not be. The weapon is made under the cartridge. And not vice versa. Otherwise, this is called rearmament. It is expensive and rarely happens.
          Quote: Izotovp
          7,62 / 25 was recognized as the best at that time.

          Who! Who could make such a decision? Who among them was a specialist? They even could not pick up the configuration of the gas outlet for automatic weapons together.
          Quote: Izotovp
          and at real pistol distances (5-10) meters PM was enough.

          Not enough. Even when fired at point-blank PM (and TT) do not guarantee the destruction of the enemy. For army pistols, this is nonsense. This does not happen, because it cannot be. And in the USSR, easily.
          1. 0
            18 August 2015 03: 20
            Familiar caliber and familiar cartridge, because the cartridge 7,62 / 25 is made on the basis of the cartridge 7,63 / 25 Mauser. Pistols of this system were well known in the USSR.
            I repeat: before the task for the development of the pistol was issued, various cartridges for pistols available in our country up to .45 caliber were tested. For your information, Colt 1911 has always been unreliable.
            Do you need to provide a list of commissions? Do you think that Tokarev received a letter from the plant and everyone began joyfully releasing a pistol? There were tests and commissions and improvements and upgrades even before the war.
            That is, Tokarev, Simonov, Degtyarev, Shpagin, Korovin, Fedorov ... do these names tell you nothing? And in the Artillery Administration were mediocrity without combat experience? You have not beguiled times?
            The purpose of the defeat is to disable the enemy as a result of his death or such injury that he can not cause harm. And that means everyone is running around with army pistols!
          2. 0
            18 August 2015 09: 43
            Quote: 190815
            Not enough. Even when fired at point-blank PM (and TT) do not guarantee the destruction of the enemy.

            No more "guaranteed" than other modern pistols.
            Quote: 190815
            What is this argument?

            One machine park for the manufacture of rifle, pistol and machine gun barrels.
            1. -1
              18 August 2015 10: 41
              Quote: Banson
              No more "guaranteed" than other modern pistols

              More. For normal army pistols, DE about 550 J in a caliber of 8,8 mm with a high-quality hit, this is practically guaranteed at a range of up to 50 m. For example, in the same ПЯ. And with the PPSh on the TT cartridge, the same thing is guaranteed at a distance of no more than 30 m. Feel the difference.
              Quote: Banson
              One machine park for the manufacture of rifle, pistol and machine gun barrels

              This is nonsense, not an argument. The machine doesn’t care what diameter drill is inserted into it.
              Give you free rein, you will translate artillery into a three-line caliber. Based on the same considerations.
        2. 0
          30 December 2015 15: 41
          Quote: Izotovp
          APS 9x19 "Spider". Created today.

          not created, and a pistol scheme for creating a working layout is proposed. Do not fool the people.
      2. -1
        18 August 2015 02: 11
        Quote: tracer
        After all, there is 45 ACP .... The stopping effect of which is simply incomparable with smaller calibers, even 9/19 para

        And there’s such a thing as body armor.
        Quote: tracer
        The truth is that a combat pistol should fire as far as possible

        No further than 50 m. For the most powerful. For greater distances, there are other types of weapons.
        Quote: tracer
        hit the enemy (it is not necessary to turn it into minced meat)

        It is not necessary to turn into mincemeat. And it’s necessary to destroy. Army, such a specific organization.
        Quote: tracer
        which, in terms of accuracy, ease of aiming and accuracy of the TT of 1954 (Tula) leaves behind a famous competitor born in 2015

        You confuse athletes and soldiers. They have different tasks.
        Quote: tracer
        with "weird" TT

        Colt 1911 still in service. Against goals without bronikov, he is the best. And also, not very fresh. And TT was initially bad. Because of his patron. That is how he stayed.
        1. +1
          18 August 2015 03: 26
          What the fuck 50 meters ?! Have you seen enough of the militants? 5-10 meters for the gun. For the machine, a maximum of 400, really, less.
          A terrible military secret: killing enemies is not as profitable as wounding.
          But what, soldiers do not need accuracy and ease of aiming? Weird !!
          Against targets without bronikov the best cartridge .45, but the Colt 1911-to put it mildly, not really. There is better in this caliber.
          1. 0
            19 August 2015 17: 09
            Quote: Izotovp
            What the fuck 50 meters ?! Have you seen enough of the militants? 5-10 meters for the gun. For a machine maximum 400, really-less

            Army pistol - up to 50 meters.
            Rifle (any) - up to 400 meters. This also includes the "automatic" AK-74 (and M-16), which, with the power of the machine, has the effectiveness of a rifle.
            Automatic - if by this sacred word you mean AK-47 - up to 300 meters.
            Submachine gun (some of them are also called with the word "automatic") - up to 100 meters.
            Of course, we are talking about normal air-conditioned weapons. And not about the miserable wretched crafts like TT, PPSh and MP-40.
            Quote: Izotovp
            A terrible military secret: killing enemies is not as profitable as wounding.

            You can hurt in different ways. Killing in the end is more profitable. This is all army weapons and tuned.
            Quote: Izotovp
            without armor

            What are the broniks during TT?
  33. 0
    18 August 2015 02: 10
    The potential at 7,62 / 25 may not be bad, and a 14-charge TT was created at the time, but ... it seems to me that today .357 and Russian 9/21 cartridges are still better.
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. 0
    19 August 2015 13: 45
    190815 Enchanting Troll - a long time ago there weren’t such people here, a kind of living mixture between Kuptsov and Potapov.
    1. 0
      19 August 2015 17: 12
      Quote: gross kaput
      190815 Enchanting Troll

      Clear. The opponent was blown away, he has no arguments (and did not have), so he began to fight in hysteria. Don't be so nervous. Menstruation will pass, and everything will work out.
      1. -1
        19 August 2015 18: 14
        Quote: 190815
        Opponent

        Clown you flatter yourself - with your "knowledge" only make people laugh.
        1. 0
          19 August 2015 19: 11
          Quote: gross kaput
          You flatter yourself

          This I flatter you. I do not want to call you the word that should have been. Therefore, affectionately and tenderly I call the word "opponent".
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. 0
          26 November 2015 18: 03
          Quote: gross kaput
          Clown you flatter yourself - with your "knowledge" only make people laugh.

          Actually, about the same I can write about you. You have not noticed any special knowledge. Only you are also a boor.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      19 August 2015 17: 13
      The only thing I don’t understand is: is he mocking, joking, or is he really like that?
      1. 0
        19 August 2015 17: 25
        Quote: Izotovp
        The only thing I don’t understand

        You will be engaged in self-education. Then you will understand a lot of things. I hope so.
        And to carry nonsense from "popular Internet sites", you don't need a lot of intelligence and understanding. So too, those "experts" are still sitting. They make "discovery by opening" in the intervals between the recalculation of the advertising bubble.
        1. 0
          19 August 2015 17: 50
          Are you telling me that ?! Brilliant !!!! Specialist !!! Your one phrase about uneducated Bolsheviks and untrained designers is worth what !! About the fact that pistols were adopted just like that, without tests, competition ...
          The phrase about the Mauser to what? And besides, this is a German 7,62 caliber pistol !!! And not only the USSR used such a cartridge !! And successfully !! Our undergraduates made the best weapons in the world, and you consider them idiots !!
          The main damaging factor is the stopping effect? Are you at all or in places?
          Have you heard about the wound canals and cavities, the destruction of internal organs?
          You say to me that Walter is a gun, I tell you the company, in response to repairing you call the model of the guns of Walter, I tell you this, you tell me that this is a subtle observation ....
          Strategists in red pants with three cool backgrounds? Do you really think so?
          1. -2
            19 August 2015 18: 55
            Quote: Izotovp
            Your one phrase about uneducated Bolsheviks and untrained designers is worth what !!

            What is she worth? I can give examples. Mass.
            Quote: Izotovp
            And besides, this is a German 7,62 caliber pistol !!! And not only the USSR used such a cartridge !!

            The Mauser was 7,63 mm caliber. In the army, nobody used TT pistols in the world. Only the police. Maximum in the gendarmerie.
            Quote: Izotovp
            And successfully !! Our undergraduates made the best weapons in the world, and you consider them idiots !!

            What am I doing here? The whole world thought so. Yes, they themselves agreed with this in the early 50s.
            Quote: Izotovp
            The main damaging factor is the stopping effect? Are you at all or in places?

            No, it’s you, it seems, quite. Not at all up to date.
            Quote: Izotovp
            Have you heard about the wound canals and cavities, the destruction of internal organs?

            Horror what you write. Do you want to scare? Will not work. Effective weapons and cavities formed these correctly. Due to this, mortality was achieved. And the inefficient made a hole. And if it didn’t hurt anything important, then there was very little sense from this hole. Learn the materiel, my dear. You need.
            Quote: Izotovp
            Strategists in red pants with three cool backgrounds? Do you really think so?

            And then. Even the most important red strategist of those years (Stalin) completed only 4 classes of seminary. This was enough for "revolutionary activity". For other things, absolutely not.
            They were all ignorant, so clearer? And the results of the "work" of these ignoramuses were more than deplorable.
          2. 0
            30 December 2015 15: 45
            Quote: Izotovp
            The phrase about the Mauser to what? And besides, this is a German 7,62 caliber pistol

            actually 7,63x25. Once again, you are deceiving.
  36. +1
    19 August 2015 17: 04
    Let me explain some important points. Tokarev's merit is not in the "invention" of the TT pistol. He did not invent it, as some people think, including the author of the article. Open Browning 1903 or Colt 1911 (which is also essentially Browning). Or at least a modern CZ take a closer look. You will find the characteristic signature two grooves on the breech. As well as TT. Characteristic "earring" for barrel distortion. Look at the trigger pusher. Well, the appearance of the TT is almost a copy of Browning.))
    Tokarev did the right thing by adapting the Mauser cartridge to the proven Browning pistol, introducing some ratsuks along the way. But the homeland quickly received a pistol firing cartridges, of which there were many in warehouses.
    But to say that he invented is illiterate. No need to lie to yourself, engage in self-deception.
    The brilliant, unsurpassed inventor of pistols was John Moses Browning. Yes, an American Jew who, at the turn of the century, invented and patented four basic pistol automation schemes from scratch, which are still quoted and copied with variations.

    As for the cartridge of tt-shnogo. Great ammunition of its kind. He successfully fit into the first Soviet submachine guns.

    Destructive range up to 1000 m. Good flatness of the trajectory. But at the same time, the damaging factor is four times lower than that of a 45-caliber cartridge. But the TT cartridge well "sewed" obstacles in the form of helmets, walls and light armor.

    But in the end, as everyone sees, after the war, preference was shifted in favor of an increase in the stopping factor with a decrease in piercing ability.
    1. 0
      19 August 2015 17: 21
      Quote: strelok-54
      Tokarev did the right thing by adapting the Mauser cartridge to the proven Browning pistol, introducing some ratsuks along the way.

      And long before Tokarev, the Spaniards in Star pistols did exactly the same thing. Those for the police.
      Quote: strelok-54
      But the homeland quickly received a pistol firing cartridges, of which there were many in warehouses.

      This is the misfortune of the motherland. That the red-worn strategists bought for themselves the Mauser-Bolo (non-army weapons), and then also the cartridge factory for the production of cartridges for them. Tokarev’s fault is not that the TT was on such an idiotic cartridge. He is a cog. As they said, he did so.
      Quote: strelok-54
      Great ammunition of its kind. He successfully fit into the first Soviet submachine guns.

      Do not make me funny. Just take it and don’t do it. From him, and the Soviet PP did not fit. They were even worse than the MP-40. Which in itself was shitty.
      Quote: strelok-54
      Destructive range up to 1000 m. Good flatness of the trajectory. But at the same time, the damaging factor is four times lower than that of a 45-caliber cartridge. But the TT cartridge well "sewed" obstacles in the form of helmets, walls and light armor.

      Did you invent these "miraculous indicators"? It seems that yes. They also attributed the armor here. A very common thing during WW2.
      Quote: strelok-54
      But in the end, as everyone sees, after the war, preference was shifted in favor of an increase in the stopping factor with a decrease in piercing ability.

      You are my dear. Until the end of the last century, piercing ability did not interest anyone. But the complete absence (of the TT pistol) of stopping action (the main damaging factor of small arms) is a serious drawback.
      1. 0
        19 August 2015 18: 13
        Quote: 190815
        And long before Tokarev, the Spaniards in Star pistols did exactly the same thing.

        Olesha in Star pistols 7,63X25 cartridges were never used, the only place where they were used by the Spaniards is the 900 series asters - clones of Mauer 96, in the Spanish police "long before Tokarev" were in service with the Astra 400 under 7,65X17 - son, let's stop fantasizing - read chtol books.
        1. 0
          19 August 2015 19: 09
          Quote: gross kaput
          Olesha in pistols Star ammunition 7,63X25 never been used

          Gee-gee. In the options for the police, they were still used. And their trunks were longer than the TT. And the hitch is bigger. Read the press. And somehow Wider. Not only about Astra.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  37. 0
    19 August 2015 18: 02
    Quote: Izotovp
    The only thing I don’t understand is: is he mocking, joking, or is he really like that?


    He laughs at you like children. Well, is it really not clear that this is a divorce.
    1. +1
      19 August 2015 18: 04
      In fact, this is not the worst option. Worse if he himself believes in it.
      1. 0
        19 August 2015 18: 44
        Do you communicate with yourself? It could be worse. But less often.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. -1
        19 August 2015 19: 12
        Quote: Izotovp
        Worse if he himself believes in it.

        Yes, no, it seems just a fat troll - even Kuptsov did not have such a mess.
        PS Yes, and the troll is somehow stupid - so openly the troll is substituted even with the beginnings of the brain will not.
        1. 0
          19 August 2015 19: 28
          Quote: gross kaput
          Yes, no, it seems just a fat troll - even Kuptsov did not have such a mess.

          And what did Kuptsov have? Pasta? Naval or Italian? "I like these" appraisers ".
          Quote: gross kaput
          Yes, and the troll is somehow stupid - so openly the troll is substituted even with the beginnings of the brain will not.

          Why are you describing yourself in such detail? Do you like self-criticism?
  38. 0
    26 November 2015 17: 59
    Today, "Totosha" (as sometimes called the TT in the middle of the 30-s) is very popular among fans of long-range aimed shots from a pistol, as well as among weapon collectors all over the world.

    Yes, the gun is sports. It can also be used for hunting small game. Gophers there, or hares. For army purposes and tasks completely unsuitable.
  39. 0
    1 October 2016 14: 08
    Yes. The great gunsmith, officer of the tsarist army, as only 5 tsarist military orders speak of. And the TT is certainly a great gun ......

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