50-mm mortars of the Second World War: experience, problems, prospects.

35
As you know, you can kill and a stone from a slingshot and a projectile from a howitzer. However, a slingshot and a set of lead balls can be hidden in a pocket, and for a howitzer you need a tractor, and to turn it around - “a fool”, on the battlefield is not easy at all. So any weapon - it is always a compromise between its cost and efficiency, and also efficiency and weight. At all times, people dreamed of creating a weapon with a weight of less, and ... a larger caliber so that one fighter could carry it and successfully use it. And it was precisely the mortar, as it turned out, could well claim to be such a light and effective weapon, as already shown by the experience of the First World War!

As you know, then there were mortars caliber 20-mm. Here are just they shot over-mine mines, the charge of explosives in which reached 10-ti and more kilograms. And although one person could not carry it, for certain conditions it was almost an “absolute weapon”. The Stokes mortar of the caliber 76-mm (later 80-mm) and literally immediately followed him, the first two-inch 50-mm English mortar (real caliber 50,8-mm) of the model 1918 of the year, which fired fragmentation mines weighing about one kilogram. However, a year later they were decommissioned as insufficiently effective.

And here the Italians entered the world arena with their 45-mm mortar. It was called “45 / 5 model 35“ Brixia ”(sample 1935), and it can be argued that it was the most difficult and most unsuccessful mortar in all history. The impression is that the designers who created it acted “without a rudder and without winds” and tested their creative imagination on it: “Let's do it like that! And what if you try it ?! ”And they tried! The result was a weapon that weighed 15,5 kg, fired a mine weighing 460 g at a distance of 536 m. The most unsuccessful decision was to load it from the breech, for such a mortar is not at all justified. The shutter was opened using a lever that had to be moved back and forth, and at the same time another mine was fed from the 10-charging shop into the barrel.

The shot was made by a shooting device, but a gas crane served to change the range. However, all this complex "automation" led to the fact that the rate of mortar did not exceed 10 rounds per minute. True, if the gunner was well prepared, the mines during the shooting could go quite well, but they were too weak, while the weight of the mortar itself was too great! In the Italian army they were used for infantry fire support at the platoon level. All (!) Soldiers were trained to operate with him, so that in the event of the death of the calculation, the mortar continued to fire. But in Africa all this didn’t help much. The complex mechanisms of the mortar were constantly clogged with sand and failed. Well, it was suicidal to open the faucet and release a surplus of gases directly in front of you, as it raised a cloud of sand! Interestingly, for the training of work with this mortar for the Italian paramilitary youth formations, a lightweight model of the caliber 35-mm was created, firing training mines. The Germans also used this mortar and even gave it its own name - “4,5-cm Granatwerfer 176 (i)”.

In conclusion, it can be said that the Italians were probably even proud of having made such a mortar. That's just incomprehensible, didn’t they understand all its complexity and failed to do something simpler? This is truly: it is difficult to do, it is very simple, but it is very difficult to do it!

50-mm mortars of the Second World War: experience, problems, prospects.

Mortar "Brixia" in the sands of the Sahara.

Then the 50-mm mortar was created in Spain, and it was here that the English didn’t hold their nerves (now return to them again), and they immediately decided to return to mortars of this caliber in order to keep up with the others. And they didn’t come up with anything better than copying a Spanish sample! Although they not only copied it, they also creatively remade it for themselves. First of all, the barrel was shortened to 530 mm. And since it is impossible to shoot a shot from such a short barrel, a shooting device was placed on it. Then put on him a sophisticated collimator sight. However, tests have shown that he does not bring great benefits, and he was rejected in favor of ... a simple white line drawn on the trunk! With one of the upgrades, they also abandoned a large base plate, replacing it with a very small metal stop, and in this form, this mortar, having a weight of only 4,65 kg, ended its participation in World War II. It is noted that the power of his mines, weighing 1,02 kg, is not so great, but the rate of fire equal to 8 rounds per minute still allowed you to create a fairly effective zone of destruction of enemy infantry. Smoke mines have shown themselves to be even more effective, so the 2,5-inch (51-mm) Mk VII mortar used in the Indian Army is still in use as a smoke mortar! That is, the development trend was as follows: the initial design was unnecessarily complex, but then it was simplified, without losing any efficiency!


Test English 2,5-inch mortar in August 1942 year.

In the same 1938 year as the British, 50-mm company mortars were put into service in the Red Army and in Germany. A Soviet mortar of the 1938 model with a mass of 12 kg threw a mine in 850 g at a distance of 800 meters. The German 5cm leichter Granatenwerfer 36 (sample 1936 g.) Weighed 14 kg, its mine weighed 910 g, but then the firing range was 520 meters maximum. That is, like our weapons in all respects (except for the weight of a mine) exceeded the German, yes? However, alas, he also had flaws. Thus, the minimum firing range was 200 m. The mortar had an adjusting valve for the release of a part of the powder gases, which, when released, were beaten into the ground and raised a cloud of dust. The experts noted that the calibration of this very crane was incorrect, so it was impossible to get accurate shooting out of this mortar, except to shoot it “by eye”. There were other shortcomings, and they decided to eliminate all of them on the mortar of the 1940 sample of the year and ... something really was eliminated, but not all. In particular, they could not improve the reliability of the sight mount, although it would seem that it’s so difficult to make the mount stronger and more reliable! For some reason, only two fixed elevation angles in 1938 and 1940 degrees were set in the Soviet mortars of the 45 and 75 models, with the biped for some reason, and the whole further aiming was achieved, firstly, by adjusting the gas tap, and more precisely by adjusting the striker and the chamber volume. How can you not remember: "it is difficult to do - very simple, but simply - very difficult." It is believed that before the war the USSR produced no less than 24000 of such company mortars, but that the losses in them at the beginning of the war were extremely high.


German 5cm leichter Granatenwerfer 36.

German mortar was heavier than ours on the 2 kg. But solid weight guaranteed greater stability, i.e. firing accuracy. Vertical pickup 42 - 90 degrees, and that's due to it, and then there was a change in firing range. There were no cranes on it! The mortar was equipped with a mine with such a sensitive fuse that the calculation was forbidden to shoot in the rain. The mortar was carried by the assembled handle, it was quickly installed in the position, and it was immediately possible to start accurate fire from it. The length of the barrel 465 mm was small and allowed the mortar not too rise above the ground. By the beginning of the 1939 of the year, the Wehrmacht had 5914 units of such weapons, and it was produced before the 1943 of the year.


Mortar shovel.

It is impossible not to mention the infamous "mortar-shovel" caliber 37-mm, the shooting of which initially could not be effective, especially with a sufficiently deep snow cover, but which, nevertheless, adopted the Red Army. Where, how and when on trial this weapon showed its “outstanding results”, and who exactly assessed them and how then it was justified from the charges of ... it is clear what, probably, only Shirokorad knows. We, however, are important result of this adventure - the money spent, time, and ... abandoned by retreating soldiers "mortars, shovels." Only in 1941, the 50-mm rotary mortar of the model 1941 of the designer Shamarin, or just RM-41, was adopted for service by the Red Army. He got a comfortable stove with a carrying handle and could quickly open fire. Those. the problem was finally solved, only by this time all the heavy 50-mm and our and German are already morally obsolete. No wonder they were abandoned in 1943 year!


Shamarine's mortar.

The Japanese attended to such a device back in the 1921 year and called it "10 Type" in their chronology. The name 50-mm caliber "Type 10" was a smooth-bore mortar, which the Japanese themselves called a grenade launcher, since it could also be fired from with a grenade. The range control device was very simple, but original. Through the barrel passed the tube firing mechanism with a thread on the outer surface. And on the mortar case there was a grooved coupling connected to the gear. The clutch had to be rotated and the barrel either moved towards it, or, on the contrary, it was unscrewed. The length of the charging chamber, respectively, either decreased or increased. And that's it! No more difficulty!

The firing mechanism itself was also very simple - a spring-loaded striker on a long rod and a trigger lever. The graduation of ranges was also applied to this rod and therefore was clearly visible. Well, for the production of a shot, it was necessary only to lower the pre-cocked percussion mechanism. With a small weight (2,6kg) and a barrel length of just 240 mm, the 10 Type grenade launcher made it possible to shoot a universal grenade weighing 530 g to a distance of 175 m. The charge of grenades with a corrugated body contained TNNX g of TNT. The sight was missing, but the fairly significant power of the ammunition of this weapon in the jungle turned it into an unpleasant surprise for the enemy. It is interesting that the same grenade could have been thrown by hand, and its device was very simple: a cylindrical corrugated body, a fuse in the head, and a propelling charge in the tail. Moreover, the latter was located in a steel cylinder of a smaller diameter compared to the grenade body. The charge inside was in a container of thin copper sheet, which ensured water resistance. Holes for the exit of gases were in the end face of the cylinder and along its perimeter. When the capsule, which was located behind the end hole, was pricked, the propellant composition ignited, the gases broke through the walls of the copper cylinder, flowed into the barrel, and threw a grenade out of it. Well, they threw it like this: they pulled out the safety ring and hit the capsule on something solid. After this explosion followed in seven seconds!


The device mortar "Type 10" - as you can see, a very rational and well thought out design.

In 1929, the mortar grenade launcher was modernized and called the "Type 89". The weight increased from 2,6 to 4,7 kg, the barrel length increased slightly from 240 to 248 mm, as did the firing range of old ammunition: from 175 to 190 m. But the barrel became rifled and under it was made new ammunition - mine grenade. Type 89 ”, with which almost fourfold (to 650 - 670 m) increased the range of fire, and the lethal force significantly increased. True, the old universal grenades were massively used, as before, since they were released a lot, but the new ones were widely used.

Well, and, of course, how the Japanese have achieved this, is also worth telling, because this is a good example of unconventional engineering thinking. The fact is that in all the then 50-mm mortars, mines of the traditional, drop-shaped form were used, and a large explosive charge was not placed in them. The Japanese made the case cylindrical, with a screwed bottom and a hemispherical head, into which the fuse was also screwed. A cylindrical part for a propellant powder was screwed onto the bottom of the mine shell. In its bottom there were nine holes: one in the middle for the striker and eight around for exhausting powder gases. The vertical wall of the cylinder was made of copper tape - that's all! Upon ignition of the powder charge, the soft copper tape expanded and pressed into the grooves, thus completely eliminating (due to its width!), The breakthrough of gases to the outside! We add that "Type 89" could also understand into three parts, which carried the three soldiers. Each platoon of Japanese infantry had 3-4 such mortar-grenade launchers, partly equaling its chances in battles with the armies of the United Nations.


Mina to the mortar "Type 89".

There is a bike that the Americans called it a “knee-deep mortar” (incorrect translation or particular mentality) and believed that it was necessary to shoot it by resting the base plate on the knee! There are photographs confirming that the Americans shot at him like this, however, it was impossible to say many or few instances of such shooting, except that each of them ended in injury for the shooter. Well, injuries usually quickly teach that you can't do that!

Interestingly, the French also released a light mortar "50mm Mle1937" in 1939 year, and he even managed to make war, but the main light mortar of the French army was still not he, but 60-mm mortar "60mm Mle1935" designed by Edgar Brandt. His design was the simplest, which can only be: pipe, stove, bipedal. Shot a mortar pinned. At the same time its weight was 19,7 kg, the angle of elevation from + 45 to + 83 degrees. The weight of the mines is 1,33 kg, the bursting charge is 160 g, and the rate of fire reached 20-25 rounds per minute. The minimum firing range was 100 m, and the maximum - 1000 m. In the Wehrmacht, this mortar was also used and was called 6 cm Gr.W.225 (f) (Granatenwerfer 225 (f)). In addition, the release of this mortar was established by the Chinese and ... the Americans, who organized its release under the index М2. In 1938, the Americans bought eight mortars from the Brand company, tested it and designated it as M1, but it soon became the M2 from them. For paratroopers paratroopers a lightweight version of the M19 was designed, similar to the English 2,5-inch, and also devoid of two-legs and with a primitive emphasis. It was a very simple 60,5-mm mortar, which had a length of 726 mm and a weight of 9 kg. The shooting range of American mortars with a weight of 1,36 mines kg ranged from 68 to 750 m.


American mortar M2 with a set of accessories.

That is, there can be only one conclusion - and it is confirmed by the experience of the Second World War and subsequent local conflicts: 50-mm mortars are not as effective as 60-mm in terms of the weight-effectiveness and cost-effectiveness criteria. It got to the point that in the USA the 81-mm mortar М29 was considered too heavy and was replaced with the 60-mm mortar М224, shooting a non-80 mine with a weight of 1,6 kg for a range 4200 m (normal range 3500 m). The 51-mm mortar was in service with the army of Great Britain, and you can even shoot at 50 m, and the maximum range is equal to 800 m. The weight of the high-explosive fragmentation mine 920 g, the lighting and smoke mines - 800 g. analogue of the period of the Second World War. It is interesting that one of the tasks of mortars with these mortars is to highlight targets for calculating the Milan “ATGM”. The standard satchel includes five mines plus a mortar (8,28 kg), and the British army carries all this alone! 60-mm mortar with a long barrel released in South Africa and this is a South African's own development. They believe that the power of the long mine, which he shoots, is comparable to the power of 81 / 82-mm mortars of conventional construction. The firing range is also about the same and ... why then do more if you can do less?


English 2,5-inch mortar before upgrading.

The most “large-caliber” mortar among 50 / 60-mm is the Swedish “Lyran” mortar. His caliber is 71-mm, but he only shoots lighting mines. Externally, the mortar in the transport position consists of two plastic cylinders with longitudinal grooves, interconnected. In one - the trunk and two lighting mines, in the other - four mines. To bring it into action, you need to screw the barrel into the slot on the container, sit on the container, tilt the barrel by 47 degrees and ... shoot! You can fire at a distance of 400 and 800 m, while the diameter of the illuminated spot on the ground when the mine is at a height of 160 m is about 630 m in diameter! The Israeli mortar “Soltam” firing range is equal to 2250 m, with the weight of the mortar itself with the supporting biped and sight - 14,3 kg, that is, it weighs less than the American M224. Mina weighs 1590 g. Well, the French 60-mm “Hotchkis-Brand” weighs 14,8 kg, has a mine weighing 1,65 kg, but its firing range is less than that of the Israeli - 2000 m.

And finally, the last. What bribes small caliber mortars? Convenience of transportation, but it makes sense to use them only where the enemy has only small arms. But in this case, it is not at all difficult to create a very lightweight mortar that will fire mines with a caliber from 50 / 60 to 81 / 82 mm and more. Its design is very simple: a base plate, a screw rod on it, at the base of which there is a very short interchangeable barrel with a shooting device or no “nothing” at all, for firing. The sight can be portable. Jet mines are put on this rod, for which a tube of the corresponding diameter passes through them, including the fuse. At the end of the mine there is an expelling charge included in the removable barrel. When fired, the expelling charge throws a mine into the air, and then a rocket engine accelerates it. Shooting from such a mortar can be carried out by the appropriate mines of any caliber and give a whole bunch of trajectories. It is impossible to say how such a system will be truly effective. But theoretically ... why not?
35 comments
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  1. +5
    17 August 2015 06: 52
    Article +.
    And in the photo, it’s just like these samples are.
    1. +1
      17 August 2015 20: 27
      We need to work through the article.
    2. 0
      20 August 2015 14: 53
      One cannot fail to mention the infamous 37 mm spade mortar
      And really, sadly.
      In the same 1938 as the British, 50-mm company mortars were adopted by the Red Army
      It was a mistake. It was necessary to take ~ 61 mm mortar into service. As for the 50 mm mortar for the lower link, everything here is also not easy. With the greatly reduced wartime states, it most likely was not needed.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  2. +2
    17 August 2015 07: 12
    Good historical review. But the last paragraph would not have been better ...

    2B25
    http://www.burevestnik.com/products/2b25.html
    М224А1
    http://topwar.ru/14829-60-i-millimetrovyy-minomet-stal-esche-luchshe.html
    1. 0
      17 August 2015 10: 25
      Useful links, silent 82 mm 2B25 "Gall" is an interesting mortar that our army needs. Probably, and 50-60 mm ultralight mortars have not yet said their last word. Data and photo 2B25 "Gall" who does not look at links.
      Maximum firing range, m 1200

      Minimum firing range, m 100

      Maximum rate of fire without aiming correction, rds/min. 15

      Elevation angles, degrees 45-85

      Angles of horizontal guidance, degrees:
      - without rearrangement bipods ± 4
      - with reversible bipedal 360

      Time to transfer the product from traveling to combat position or vice versa, s no more than 30

      Calculation, pers. Xnumx

      Mortar mass in combat position (without platform), kg no more than 13

      1. -2
        17 August 2015 10: 32
        Quote: Per se.
        which our army needs

        And why is it needed?
        1. +4
          17 August 2015 11: 05
          Quote: IS-80
          And why is it needed?
          One must understand that this is more skepticism than a question, nonetheless.
          The advantage of the 2B25 mortar is the stealth of the firing position and the suddenness of its combat use due to the noiselessness, flamelessness and smokeless firing, thanks to the unique features of the design scheme and the use of the silent fragmentation shot of the 3В35.
          The transfer of the 2B25 from the combat position to the stowed position and vice versa is carried out without disassembling the product into its component parts. Short distance transportation is carried out using belts attached to the product. Transportation is carried out in a regular box by any type of transport or in a hiking backpack by calculation. Due to the small dimensions and weight of the 2Б25, one combat crew can carry one.
          All these qualities make the mortar attractive for use by special forces, including during counter-terrorist operations.
          At least it's better than nothing. Perverting from a grenade launcher in mounted shooting is a good thing, but here, a new light mortar would not hurt.
          1. +1
            17 August 2015 11: 38
            Quote: Per se.
            All these qualities make the mortar attractive for use by special forces, including during counter-terrorist operations.

            Why is he special forces? With a lot of mines to carry away. Accuracy is doubtful.
            1. +2
              17 August 2015 11: 52
              In order not to write a lot, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the material here

              http://www.bratishka.ru/archiv/2001/11/2001_11_7.php

              And here's another

              http://fastmarksman.ru/1_pyt/2_specnaz_8.php
          2. -1
            17 August 2015 16: 41
            Quote: Per se.
            a new light mortar would not hurt.

            Why is it needed when there is an AGS?
            1. +1
              17 August 2015 20: 56
              But nothing that the AGS is a different type of weapon and is, to put it mildly, heavier?
          3. 0
            17 August 2015 21: 08
            A skeptical attitude towards mortars of such calibers appeared back in World War II due to the low effectiveness of the ammunition and the unsatisfactory accuracy of fire. At the same time, for the enemy, the calculation of this weapon, as a rule, was included in the "list of targets No. 1" and they tried to suppress it, first of all, on a par with "adult" mortars. I will refer to the experience of my late father. During the defense of Stalingrad (the area of ​​the Beketovka farm), they had these mortars, including ownerless ones, but the people did not strive to use them, not wanting to once again be subjected to reciprocal German machine-gun, artillery or mortar fire. The actual use of the 50-mm mortar in the father's unit boiled down to the following: since the attitude of the guys to their own life has already become extremely disregarding, this weapon was used mainly when playing cards, in the "throw-in", as follows. There are no German attacks or preparations. In this regard, in our trench only observers and machine gunners on duty. The rest in the bunkers are playing or playing cards. The loser must, along a shallow passage of the message, run to this mortar, throw three mines, and while the Germans figure out what's what, return whole. The queue was for the right to play. Youth. In 43 these mortars disappeared from the troops completely, as well as at the end of 41 the 37-mm "mortar shovels".
      2. +3
        17 August 2015 15: 01
        Quote: Per se.
        Useful links, silent 82 mm 2B25 "Gall" is an interesting mortar that our army needs. Probably, and 50-60 mm ultralight mortars have not yet said their last word.

        that's for sure, they did NOT say that they are actively being modernized by NATO countries and not only ...

        Quote: IS-80
        And why is it needed?
        --- play war game laughing

        1) silent mortars:
        1.1) 51,2-mm disposable silent mortar (Belgium, PRB)
        1.2) 50-mm silent mortar "Type 89 mortar" (export designation first - QLZ-1, later - QLT89; development and production - China; by design - rather "semi-caliber semi-bomber", because the mine is not completely recessed in the barrel , the lower part of which has a diameter of 26 mm, and the upper part into which, in fact, the mine is installed - 50 mm)
        1.3) 51,2-mm silent mortar complex FLY-K (development - Belgium, PRB; production - France, "Titanite"; the designation of the mortar itself in Belgium - NR8111, in France - NT8111)
        1.4) 60-mm silent mortar "Mumu" (Georgia)
        1.5) 60-mm mortar of silent shooting (USSR, experienced; actually a half-bomb, because the mine is also not completely sunk in the barrel)
        1.6) Fly-K (not to be confused with FLY-K!) In the version of a single-barrel launcher (Rheinmetall, Germany):
        2) Commando 60mm mortars (note: not all 60mm mortars belong to this class)
        for forces SPN:
        2.7) SOLTAM, S-576 "Commando" lightweight (Israel)

        info from: http: //spec-naz.org/forum/forum84/topic479/? PAGEN_2 = 3


        South Africa - 60-mm M4 L3, and M4 Mk1 ...
        1. +3
          17 August 2015 15: 08
          and yet, infa to the topic ...

          ECIA, light 60mm Commando mortar (Spain)
          2.9) Commando (Romania)
          2.10) "Commando" M70 (formerly Yugoslavia (SFRY), now - Croatia)
          3) unified (for infantry, airborne forces and Special Forces forces) 60-mm mortars:
          3.11) ECIA, L / LL Models
          3.12) Standery (Romania)
          3.13) 60-mm Swiss Ordnance (Switzerland)
          3.14) "Bohler" (development) / "Hirtenberger" (production), lightweight 60-mm mortar "Commando" (Austria)
          3.15) "Hotchkiss-Brandt" (France), light 60-mm mortars "Commando" V (B; for the Airborne Forces and special forces) and "Commando" A (for export)
          3.16) DC-M37C1 (Peru)
          3.17) M4L3, M4 Mk.1 (South Africa)
          3.18) M6 (South Africa)
          3.19) M6 (Pakistan)
          3.20) M224 (USA)
          3.21) S6-210 (Bulgaria)
          3.22) Short ANTOS / SANTOS (Czech Republic)
          3.23) "Mortar" type 63-I "(PRC)
          3.24) "Mortar" type 85 "(PRC; export designation - W85)
          4) single (for infantry, airborne forces and Special Forces forces) mortars of other calibers:
          a) lungs:
          4.25) 40-mm sapper shovel-grenade launcher-mortar "Option" (Russia)
          4.26) "Royal Ordnance" (?), "2-inch (actual caliber - 51,2 mm) infantry mortar" (mortar) L9A1 (Great Britain)
          4.27) IMI, 51,2 / 52-mm mortar (caliber at the request of the customer; development and production - Israel; the Israeli armed forces (IDF / IDF) are presumably in reserve)

          info from "http://spec-naz.org/forum/forum84/topic479/?PAGEN_2=3

          Peru - 60 mm DC-M37C1


          Czech-60-mm SANTOS

          Israel-60-mm Soltan Commando

  3. +5
    17 August 2015 08: 14
    For some reason, there is an opinion that the mortars were garbage, but I recall that before the era of the ACS and the grenade launcher, there were few alternative options.

    I came across a German mention of the use of 5 cm in 43!, At the time of the positional war, it was very praised.

    Well, my favorite ...
    Victor Nekrasov. In the trenches of Stalingrad.

    The soldiers lie along the walls of the barn at the windows and doors. Someone without a tunic, in
    a blue T-shirt and a cloaked tent piled up on the rafters.
    The chain goes right at us. You can already disassemble individual binoculars
    figures. The machine guns are behind everyone - the Germans do not expect anything. Ahead
    tall, thin, with glasses, must be the commander. He has no machine gun and on
    left side gun; with the Germans, he is always on his left side. Slightly overloaded
    when walking - apparently tired. Nearby is a small one with a large satchel behind him.
    He thrust his hands behind the straps, he smokes a short pipe and nods to the beat
    head, as if pecks. Two are behind. Leaning over, considering something.
    ...
    And suddenly over the ear:
    - The fire!
    The front one, with glasses, falls heavily to the ground. His companion too. And further
    a few people. The rest run, fall, stumble, rise again,
    collide with each other.
    - Stop it!
    Shiryaev lowers the machine; snap shutters. One German is trying
    to crawl. They are laying it. He freezes on all fours, then
    slowly falls to one side. Nothing more is visible or heard. So lasts
    A couple of minutes.
    Igor is looking for tobacco in his pocket.
    - Now they will climb again.
    He pulls out a ginger round box of tobacco. Germans in these are
    butter and jam.
    - Nothing, time to smoke. Still, it’s more fun with a cigarette. - Shiryaev
    twists a cigarette thick as a finger. - I wonder if they have
    mortars? If there is, then ...
    A mine bursting a stone's throw from the barn prevents him from ending the sentence.
    The second is torn somewhere behind the wall, the third is right in the barn.
    The shelling lasts about five minutes. Shiryaev squats leaning against
    back to the wall. I can’t see Igor. Mines fly in series of five to six pieces.
    Then a break in a few seconds, and again five or six pieces. Near someone
    moans in a high, almost feminine voice. Then suddenly silence immediately.
    I rise in my arms and look out the window. Germans run across the field right
    on us.
    - Listen to my command! ..
    Shiryaev jumps up and is in one jump at the machine gun.
    Three short lines. Then one is more authentic.
    The Germans disappear into the ravine. We take the fighters out of the sheds, they dig in
    on the other side of the back wall. In the sheds we leave only two machine guns - this
    enough for now. We already have four wounded and six dead.
    Again the shelling begins. Under the guise of mortars, the Germans crawl out
    ravine. They manage to run about twenty meters, no more. Terrain
    completely flat, they have nowhere to hide. One by one they run away into a ravine.
    Most remain in place. On clay, overgrown with weeds
    lonely green tubercles of bodies.
    After the third time, the Germans cease attacks. Shiryaev wipes his sleeve
    wet forehead with rain and sweat.
    - Now they will begin to surround ... I already know them.
    1. +1
      17 August 2015 12: 14
      ..... For some reason, there is an opinion that 5cm mortars were garbage, but I recall that before the era of the ACS and grenade launcher there were few alternative options ....

      .... The alternative was ... Back in the early 30s, one Russian gunsmith was designed and made an easel grenade launcher of caliber something 30-40mm .... The tests showed very good results - a range of about 1200 m and a rate of 300 rounds / min ( I don’t remember the exact data) .... The weight was too big - about 35 kg .... But because there was a 50mm mortar craze and a powerful mortar lobby, the development was closed ..... I can imagine what would happen if the troops The Red Army would have been such things in the Second World War, especially in the initial period ..... hi
      1. +3
        17 August 2015 12: 37
        40,8 mm Taubin grenade launcher.
      2. +1
        17 August 2015 13: 05
        Quote: aleks 62
        ... I imagine what would happen if the Red Army troops had similar things in the Second World War, especially in the initial period .....

        nothing, everything as usual, expensive, heavy, with an elite ammunition, would have been curtailed in a month and remained only in museums and in the photo with the Germans.

        do not consider the Soviet leadership stupid and kick the nonexistent lobby.
        - the most difficult, complex and expensive to manufacture (e.g. plenty of turning work)
        grenade from the Dyakonovsky grenade launcher. . expensive, imperfect, difficult to manufacture.
        - grenade without an impact fuse, only with deceleration. with manual installation of deceleration!
        - The grenade is noticeably weaker than 50 mm mines.
        - Reliability-7% delays and 30 breakdowns on 500 shots.


        ps. Yes, and I do not need to poke an article in Kalashnikov.
      3. +5
        17 August 2015 13: 10
        Quote: aleks 62
        .Even in the early 30s, one Russian gunsmith designed and made a 30-40mm caliber grenade launcher .... The tests showed very good results - a range of about 1200m and a rate of 300 rounds / min (I don’t remember the exact data) ... . The weight was bolshevat - about 35kg .... But because there was a 50mm mortar craze and a powerful mortar lobby, the development was closed .....

        Apparently it is a Taubin grenade launcher. And the story about the "mortar lobby" was launched by Shirokorad, who was very fond of simple explanations of complex things.
        In fact, an automatic grenade launcher in the 30s was heavier, more complex, less powerful than a 50 mm mortar, plus it had a smaller wearable BC.
        In production, Taubin’s grenade launcher was a technologist’s nightmare. A square coil of square wires ... and a brand new munition. belay
        Here is the opinion of uv. M. Svirin about AG Taubin:
        1. Who needed him at that time? After all, he would need millions of grenades, if even the 50-mm mines industry could not make the necessary amount from 1938 to 1941?
        2. Where would mass production be established? It was fabulously expensive compared not only with a 50 mm mortar, but also with 82 mm. Well, if you compare it with a 40-mm Dyakonov grenade launcher? Dyakonov’s grenade launchers were given to all departments. And where to give TAubin? For the price - in battalions and regiments, not otherwise.
        3. What is the advantage of a Taubin grenade launcher, if there is a Dyakonov grenade launcher that the fighters do not know how to use?
        My opinion is that he was premature at that time.

        Comrade Taubin was generally a man who was keen on and did not like to do one thing for a long time. For which he received VMN, when he could not finish his 23-mm gun. And by the standards of that time - deservedly, because no one Taubin pulled his tongue and did not make promise to 100% surrender a working gun in a certain time frame. Worst of all, a series of 3 new aircraft were launched under Taubin’s cannon, which as a result had to be re-equipped with much weaker SHVAK.

        All the advantages of ACS appeared only in the 60s, when it became possible to make grenades from normal steel (and even with GPE), and the infantry acquired its own transport, which allowed to increase the wearable / transportable ammunition.
        1. +1
          17 August 2015 13: 16
          "The earlier decisions on the program for the production of 23 mm cannons and shells should be canceled. The People's Commissariat for Armaments, Comrade Vannikov, should write off the costs incurred for the production of 23 mm Taubin-Baburin guns."
          Thank you all, everyone is free, and you Taubin stay ....

          The designers of Tukhachevsky-Kurchevsky, Grokhovsky, Taubin ... it's good to dream for people's money.
          1. 0
            17 August 2015 13: 44
            Quote: Stas57
            "The earlier decisions on the program for the production of 23 mm cannons and shells should be canceled. The People's Commissariat for Armaments, Comrade Vannikov, should write off the costs incurred for the production of 23 mm Taubin-Baburin guns."

            Meanwhile in the castle at the chef a new project was born at Design Bureau in Taubin - ZSU based on the T-34. C ... right - with the MP-6 unclaimed.

            The frequency response indicator, even after Taubin's activation, OKB-16 continued to burn with napalm:
            Since February 42nd three times these kind people went to the forest for the tree defective MFIs were taken for testing. Three times them with matuges sent to work better. And in August, they bring another rustle to NIPSVO ... with a crack on the bolt. And this shutter (surprise! Surprise!) Breaks even during the calibration of cartridges.
            (c) kris-reid
      4. The comment was deleted.
  4. 0
    17 August 2015 08: 20
    Our grenade launchers are clearly simpler to manufacture and use, and most importantly they have a wider range of applications, and in terms of striking capabilities are equal to these 50-mm mortars. So the renaissance of 50-mm mortars is possible only when using some new technical or other solutions that allowed them to break ahead, according to the criterion - efficiency.
    And so, at the present stage, 40-mm automatic grenade launchers took their place in battle formations.
  5. +6
    17 August 2015 08: 31
    One cannot fail to mention the infamous "mortar-spade" caliber 37-mm, firing from which initially could not be effective ...


    The troops said about him: "Shoots like a shovel, digs like a mortar."
  6. +3
    17 August 2015 08: 39
    well thought out design.

    In 1929, the mortar grenade launcher was modernized and called the "Type 89". The weight increased from 2,6 to 4,7 kg, the barrel length increased slightly from 240 to 248 mm, as did the firing range of old ammunition: from 175 to 190 m. But the barrel became rifled and under it was made new ammunition - mine grenade. Type 89 ”, with which almost fourfold (to 650 - 670 m) increased the range of fire, and the lethal force significantly increased. True, the old universal grenades were massively used, as before, since they were released a lot, but the new ones were widely used.


    ... They were not mortars, and had nothing to do with the knees. They were the standard grenade launcher of the Imperial Army, and were one of the greatest unsung weapons of the Second World War.
    Simple, easy to maintain, and ubiquitous. One of the rare types of weapons in which the Japanese managed to get around everyone. Britons and Americans on average had two or three mortars per company, (Besides the USMC, they were very kind to mortars) The Japanese had them one at a time. And although they didn’t throw so much, these small monsters could drop a grenade on your head from six hundred meters with terrifying accuracy.
    Simple but not primitive. Despite the ugly angularity, extremely thoughtful design. Easy to disassemble and clean, made of a copper alloy, embodying exactly the right proportion of flexibility and strength. It is disassembled into 4 parts that do not burden soldiers, and then assembled within seconds.
    The simplest sight from two eyes, such that the monkey could figure it out, but is amazingly accurate in skillful hands (and given its number, skillful hands were in bulk). It works everywhere and always under tropical rain and snowstorms in Aleuts. Easy to use and almost impossible to break. With a team of three, it can produce 30 standard hand grenades per minute.
    Reading the memoirs of Americans on the Pacific front, it becomes clear how much they hated and feared these weapons. The Type 89 grenade launchers killed more Americans than the Zero and Longspears combined, for a fraction of their cost.
    The rest of the armies had mortars too, but usually heavier and more - the standard American 60-mm mortar weighed 43 pounds, unlike 12 pounds like 89 and was much less common. Yes, the American version threw a twice as heavy mine three times further, but who needed these two kilometers in the jungle?
  7. +2
    17 August 2015 12: 26
    I would also like to see an article on battalion mortars (81mm-Germans, 82mm-USSR). By the way, the 82mm mortar currently in service with the Russian Armed Forces is practically a mortar arr. 1943, only slightly modernized. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but several times I met information that the Soviet 82mm mortars fired well with captured 81mm mines. And our 82mm mines didn’t fit into the trunks of German 81mm mortars ...
  8. 0
    17 August 2015 12: 40
    It is not clear why the author stubbornly calls the English mortar a 2,5-inch. 2,5 inches is 63,5 mm and 50,8 (51) is 2 inches!
  9. +3
    17 August 2015 12: 47
    Quote: Stas57
    For some reason, there is an opinion that the mortars were garbage, but I recall that before the era of the ACS and the grenade launcher, there were few alternative options.

    However, in the USSR it was the 50mm mortar that delayed the onset of the "AGS era" in the Red Army. Taubin automatic 40mm grenade launcher on trials in 1938. lost to B.I.Shavyrin's 50-mm company mortar.
    1. 0
      17 August 2015 13: 10
      and thank God for losing
  10. 0
    17 August 2015 15: 05
    In the literature, I do not remember the name of the novel, the experience of using a mortar shovel was described. The author apparently wrote from eyewitness accounts. The company went to the front in 42 year. Instead of rifles handed mortar spades. And to the attack ... In general, all the fighters practically lost these spade mortars when they fell under the shelling of Nazi mortars and machine guns in the first attack. And the question is, why is this necessary now, if there are grenade launchers ???.
    1. +1
      17 August 2015 16: 33
      Quote: Signaller
      In the literature, I do not remember the name of the novel, the experience of using a mortar shovel was described. The author apparently wrote from eyewitness accounts. The company went to the front in 42 year. Instead of rifles handed mortar spades. And to the attack ... In general, all the fighters practically lost these spade mortars when they fell under the shelling of Nazi mortars and machine guns in the first attack.

      Near Stalingrad, even to the battalion mortars, the plates lost:
      In operational documents of the Stalingrad Front, refrain sounds words about the insufficient use of infantry weapons. It got to the point of absurdity: in the 607th rifle regiment there were six 82-mm mortars, but they were all without plates, which were simply ... lost.
      (c) Isaev

      The reason for these losses is simple - infantry commanders could not use mortars:
      Mortars themselves were not powerful weapons, but they could play an important role in the offensive. So, during the assault on a height of 129,6 in early September 1942, a disguised German anti-tank gun disabled several tanks. It took the advice of an officer of the General Staff allocate rifle units with mortars to destroy this gun, which was successfully done.

      And since the infantrymen did not see any benefit from mortars, then they lost things that were "unnecessary" in their opinion.

      Moreover, this fact of inability to use their mortars is far from unique - on Lenfront in 1943 an order was issued on the use of battalion fire weapons, which indicated that the combatants regularly forget to include their mortars in the attack plans, as a result of which they either do not fire at all or fire at the same target, often even after it is already occupied by our troops. And it was also said there that the battalion commanders regularly request fire support of the regiment and division’s OS for targets that could be suppressed by the battalion’s OS.
  11. -1
    17 August 2015 16: 24
    Quote: Stas57
    and thank God for losing

    Who knows ... The same 50mm mortar turned out to be ineffective and very quickly lost its position to the more powerful (and heavy) 82mm, but AG Taubin’s track still crossed. And you can bring to mind any system.
    1. 0
      17 August 2015 17: 19
      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: Stas57
      and thank God for losing

      Who knows ... The same 50mm mortar turned out to be ineffective and very quickly lost its position to the more powerful (and heavy) 82mm, but AG Taubin’s track still crossed. And you can bring to mind any system.

      Price, what is the price of this refinement.
      In the critical 41, everything that was available and the main thing that worked, not mythical, was important, not just what would be brought up somewhere, but what is here and now.
      It may be simpler, but it can be done by any teenager in any factory.
      The mortar did not become ineffective, both sides used up to 43 quite often (15900 thousand 50mm min for 41_42gg, which is times more than 82mm). The main thing is to be able to use it, an example from Nekrasov I gave above.

      I am sure on 100% that this is all a superweapon with its jambs that the Germans would have left to joy
    2. +1
      17 August 2015 18: 38
      Quote: DesToeR
      Who knows ... The same 50mm mortar turned out to be ineffective and very quickly lost its position to the more powerful (and heavy) 82mm, but AG Taubin’s track still ran across.

      The 50 mm mortar proved to be ineffective, mainly due to the fact that there were no "competent users" for it. Personnel crisis - more or less trained cadres of artillerymen were sucked out by artillery from a division and above like a vacuum cleaner.
      Plus, the quality of the training of the battalion commanders and comforters also suffered. Often they simply did not know how to use their available weapons, requesting in small groups and even individual enemy soldiers fire division and corps calibers. Orders 1941, 1942 and 1943 on the use of heavy weapons of battalions are written almost like a carbon copy. The situation was similar in the companies.
      So we get - on the one hand, the mortar does not have competent users, and on the other hand, there is no one to competently set the task for the mortars. In such conditions, the AGS with "Vasilko" will become ineffective.

      A Taubin grenade launcher in such a situation would not have saved.
      And his place in the OSh is not defined. For a company it is too complicated, heavy and voracious. And the battalion already has its 82 mm + machine guns and 45 mm.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And you can bring to mind any system.

      You tell me this DS-39. smile
      The army needed the lightweight easel machine gun like air like bread - discontinued before the war. Not shmogla (C).
      1. 0
        17 August 2015 19: 24
        You, Aleksey, raise a very important point - where is his place in the ranks, and what should be removed to stick our miracle
  12. 0
    17 August 2015 17: 51
    Quote: cosmos111
    1.4) 60-mm silent mortar "Mumu" (Georgia)

    For a silent mortar, the name "Gerasim" is more suitable.
    "Mumu" is closer to some kind of underwater vehicle.
  13. 0
    17 August 2015 18: 03
    Quote: Stas57
    complex and expensive to manufacture (e.g. plenty of turning work)

    If this is a prototype, then usually a lot of turning parts. For an experienced, they are unlikely to make stamping dies. IMHO
    1. 0
      17 August 2015 19: 08
      Quote: Denimax
      IMHO

      Matrices are also possible.
      It is good to be rich and happy, but this is not a pre-war USSR, 2 cm Flugabwehrkanone 30 as if hinting.
  14. LMaksim
    0
    17 August 2015 22: 55
    the first two-inch 50 mm English mortar (real caliber 50,8 mm) appeared in 1918
    Well, this is 25,4mm. The main problem of small-caliber mortars is the small firing range and light weight of the mine. As I understand it, their role is now to some extent performed by automatic and underbarrel grenade launchers. The same AGS-17 firing range of 1700 m.
  15. 0
    18 August 2015 13: 22
    Quote: Stas57
    In the critical 41, everything that was available and the main thing that worked, not mythical, was important, not just what would be brought up somewhere, but what is here and now.

    Well, from 1938 to 1941 there was time, but the military did not see the prospects of development. In addition, on the basis of tests it was possible to issue TK not only to Taubin, but also to other design bureaus, and then compare by competition.
    Quote: Alexey RA
    The 50-mm mortar turned out to be ineffective, mainly due to the fact that there were no "competent users" for it

    Not tired of writing about and literacy? We can blame everything on lack of understanding. Why, then, did the 82mm mortar all "read" dear? Even the "great" Germans slammed it like a carbon copy.
    Quote: Alexey RA
    You tell me this DS-39.

    You tell this to the cartridge lobby.
    1. 0
      20 August 2015 15: 11
      Quote: Alexey RA
      You tell me this DS-39.

      Quote: DesToeR
      You tell this to the cartridge lobby

      Well no. Ammo is not necessary. The usual were cartridges. Not bad, but not good.
      The DS-39 was really bad. Structurally, and with the heat balance, there were disagreements. In addition, it was almost impossible to operate it in the field. This "heating battery" was instantly clogged with dirt and stopped cooling completely. And from this she stopped shooting.
      In fact, they were able to do something similar to a machine gun on this cartridge after the war. This product is called SGM. And before that there were continuous setbacks.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  16. 0
    18 August 2015 19: 37
    A small episode of the use of company mortars in the Great Patriotic War (Shumilin A.I. "Vanka-rotny"). - That's what Serafim! Fifty meters in front of our trashey tonight, you will dig two slits for observation and two firing positions for company mortars. We will place the slots for observers on the flanges.

    - Look! Show the place! On the right NP we set up a stereo pipe. You’ll make an attack for her. Mortar cells you dig in the bushes, here and here. Mortar cells and observation posts are connected by telephone. Mortars, mines, telephone sets and a stereo tube will bring the guys tonight. By morning, the cells and slots were open, the telephone connection was flat, mortars and a stereo tube were in place. At night, Ryazantsev appeared in my dugout. We discussed with him the task of searching and he, without waiting for dawn, with a group of guys went to the forest.

    Before dawn, I, with the orderly, and six scouts, two in each trench, stepped forward. The company commander and his soldiers were warned. In the event of massive shelling by our trenches, all were sent to dugouts. In the tattered, rare observers remained. With the dawn, we will begin shelling the German trance.

    Heights 220 in front of us. The German tandem girdles her with a horizontal arc. It can be seen perfectly in the stereo tube. Two observers with binoculars on the left flange. We are with the orderly on the right, with a stereo tube. Mortars are in the middle. The distance between us is small, in the event of a wire break, we will maintain voice communication. The mortars are seated in two scouts. They are not specialists; they did not finish artillery courses. This is good. They are unrivaled masters in any delicate matter. Give them the self-propelled guns now, and they will shoot the German tanny out of them. Their soul aches and their hands itch, they just let them try a new business.

    Having determined the range and elevation angle, I give a command and the first sighting mine flies towards the German tandem. Mortar cells are open in the bushes, flashes of fire and smoke from the Germans are not visible.

    - well! - I said looking into the pipe, when the first mine hit the rear of the German trash.

    - Lead the fire slowly! Put the scope on one division closer! Report your willingness!

    - Ready! Give me a second mine!

    The mortar sneezed again. The sound of a shot such as if someone had hit with a wooden stick on an empty iron bathtub. A well-known sound if you go to a public bathhouse on Fridays. Look at us in Moscow on Banny, men in the bath, still rattling iron gangs.

    I look at the stereo pipe. A small smoke rose in front of the German trash.

    - Bring the floor division back! And give one more carefully, with love!

    The left observer confirmed that he was in the trash. When the mine flies into the trash, a burst of smoke during the explosion was not visible.

    - First freeze! You have a direct hit in the trash!

    - The second to prepare one mine for shooting! Are you ready? Attention! Fire!

    The second after five, six shots also hit the middle.

    - Now the most important thing! Hear me both First division to the right! The second two division to the left! Do not touch the elevation angle! One mine! Get ready! Fire!

    Now, with a mallet, I hit two times in a row in the bath basin, and when I sat on the chimney I began to look for flashes of smoke on the surface of the earth near the German trench. The left observer reported:

    - The hit is direct!

    - Change the scope horizontally after every five shots! Get ready! Let's go!

    - Well, brothers! Come on shuruy! To make the Fritz hot! I shouted into the telephone receiver.

    - Give them the heat! I am honored!

    Mines, one after another, shot up into the sky and went to the intended target. We couldn’t see how many of them were tearing into the tragedy itself, but we imagined what was happening there when we saw how the Germans ran in and ran into the trash.
    1. 0
      19 August 2015 02: 05
      -It's interesting: "The elevation angle - do not touch ..." This is from what ground they fired? When firing, the mortar plate happens to get stuck in the clay - you can't tear it out with all the calculations ... and you will have to change the angle ...
      1. 0
        19 August 2015 15: 32
        As far as I know, after the first sedimentary shots the mortar occupies a fixed position and is already firing more accurately. Here, too, the range is not large and the mine is not powerful, in order to constantly dig a plate into the ground.
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  20. 0
    18 August 2015 19: 53
    Continued .... Instrumental exploration of the Germans worked perfectly. They could detect any firing point from which the fire was fired. But in this case, the smallest mortar hit. They did not see outbreaks. The muffled sounds of gunfire were heard by them. But it never occurred to them that we were sitting under their very noses. By the sound of shots, you can detect the direction only. From our shelling the Germans became sick.

    According to ours, the German artillery began to beat because of the height. The Germans kept building fire every minute. But we, too, are not embroidered. We, under the general rumble of a mine, started up a mine. The main thing was to show that we are not afraid of their artillery. For some time, having fired all mines, we ceased fire. Our tanya and all the space around was covered in a cloud of smoke and dust. By evening, the shelling completely ceased. In the dark, flashes are clearly visible when shooting.

    It was nice to realize that we poured the Germans. Scouts always scratch their hands. They are hunters for such unusual things. Asks! What do our mortar guns do that sit somewhere behind? The Germans walk to the waist in height by their treads.
  21. 0
    20 August 2015 16: 26
    Quote: SEC
    DS-39 was really bad. Both structurally and with the heat balance were not right.

    What unique thermal balance did the DS-39 have? Let's compare the MG-34 with the same heat balance with the same interchangeable shafts.
    Quote: SEC
    In addition, it was almost impossible to operate it in the field. This "heating battery" was instantly clogged with dirt and stopped cooling completely. And from this she stopped shooting.

    A similar "heating battery" was, for example, on the Bes machine gun - it was successfully used by both the Germans and the British. At DShK. And the fact that the cartridges had to be specific (not brass) so it's okay - for ShKAS special. cartridges did, so the experience was.
    Quote: SEC
    In fact, they were able to do something similar to a machine gun on this cartridge after the war.

    Wow! Discovery however. And why did the SG-43 not suit you?
    1. 0
      20 August 2015 17: 55
      Quote: DesToeR
      What unique thermal balance did the DS-39 have? Let's compare the same heat balance of the MG-34 with the same interchangeable shafts

      None. Only he did not have replaceable barrels. From this, with the passport rate of fire, as in the MG in the "handbrake" version (3 barrels), the DS experienced constant overheating. Physics, you can't get around it.
      In the Red Army, captured MGs were operated without interchangeable barrels. In order not to hemorrhoids. In this version, its rate of fire was much worse than that of the DS-39. But then he shot flawlessly.
      The German weapons system, by the way, inspires a lot of skepticism. It's hard to call her sensible. At the end of the war, the Germans paid for it. Were forced to switch to mass production of "assault rifle" type ersatz. In fact, there was little good about it. The density of fire was tightened, but lost 100 m in effective fire range.
      Quote: DesToeR
      A similar "heating battery" was, for example, on the Bes machine gun

      Not similar.
      Quote: DesToeR
      successfully used by both Germans and British

      I don’t know how well.
      Quote: DesToeR
      At the DShK

      Not like that.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And the fact that the cartridges needed specific (not brass) was okay - for ShKAS special. cartridges did, then experience was.

      They did it. In the order of delirium.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And why did the SG-43 not suit you?

      The density of fire. A normal machine gun has it higher. Like the SGM.
      And the SG-43 she was the same as the RP-46. Poorly.
  22. 0
    21 August 2015 12: 30
    Quote: SEC
    None. Only now he did not have interchangeable trunks.

    It was. The answer is here: http://topwar.ru/14449-stankovyy-pulemet-ds-39.html
    The Russians then and today do not want to have quick-change barrels for machine guns, considering them an unnecessary burden.
    Quote: SEC
    Not similar.

    Compare ...
    http://zonwar.ru/images/pulemet/velikobritanija/rsaf_besa2t_2.jpg
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 00: 38
      I don't know what was there. But interchangeable barrels in the Red Army were not even used for MG.
      Well, they have a different comb. In addition, with the removal of sleeves, the DS had problems.
  23. 0
    21 August 2015 12: 54
    Quote: SEC
    I don’t know how well.

    If two armies had it in service, then definitely successful.
    Quote: SEC
    They did it. In the order of delirium.

    and what is the "nonsense" if not a secret?
    Quote: SEC
    The density of fire. A normal machine gun has it higher. Like the SGM. And the SG-43 she was the same as the RP-46. Poorly.

    Well, this is your "gag" that has nothing to do with reality.
    An insufficient service life and a massive two-wheeled machine are the main flaws of this weapon. In 1945, it was improved and was named the model Goryunova SGM. Mikhail Goryunov equipped the machine gun with an adjustable tripod and improved structural elements.

    Bes machine gun and its "heating system" - find 10 different from DS-39
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 00: 50
      Quote: DesToeR
      If two armies had it in service, then definitely successfully

      Didn't look, but not a fact. "Used" is not an argument. We need to watch ballistics.
      Quote: DesToeR
      and what is the "nonsense" if not a secret?

      In two ammunition.
      Quote: DesToeR
      In 1945, it was improved and was named the model Goryunova SGM. Mikhail Goryunov equipped the machine gun with an adjustable tripod and improved structural elements.

      And the machine gun received the barrel valleys (spied on by the Japanese). This made it possible to create a normal SGM machine gun instead of the semi-finished SG-43.
      Quote: DesToeR
      ulemet Bes and his "heating system" - find 10 different from DS-39

      Easily.
  24. 0
    22 August 2015 16: 29
    Quote: SEC
    Didn't look, but not a fact. "Used" is not an argument. We need to watch ballistics.

    And watch her - 7,92x57 Mauser, the barrel is long, the ballistics will be like a rifle. A machine gun of Czech design in the United Kingdom was put on almost all tanks. The British today are famous for their snobbery to everything foreign, did not disdain. In Germany, the Czech machine gun was in service under the symbol MG 37 (t). If two antagonistic-minded states gladly adopted the same machine gun, then this says a lot.
    Quote: SEC
    In two ammunition.

    Now for any rifle complex there are at least 2 ammunition, so what? DS-39 badly "ate" cartridges with a brass sleeve, there were practically no problems with steel. Cartridges with a steel sleeve clad with a tombak have been mass-produced in the USSR since 1930, i.e. long before the appearance of the DS-39.
    Quote: SEC
    And the machine gun received the barrel valleys (spied on by the Japanese). This made it possible to create a normal SGM machine gun instead of the semi-finished SG-43.

    Well, of course! Dales - it's cool! And the fact that it’s easier to make them technologically than rings is nothing? If it weren’t for the Japanese, then where are we going to get it? Funny arguments dear. Nesto you think that the SG-43 was not compared with the BEST models for 1943. Was at the competition and MG-42, and MG-34, and the modernized degtyarevsky machine gun, there was a machine gun Maxim and, for sure, something else shot from our probable friends. In the middle of the war, taking a model into service is worse than the enemy’s, at least it's stupid. Easier to copy. The Germans did just that with their self-loading (when they got the better of their own development) - they copied our SVT-40.
    Quote: SEC
    Easily

    start)))
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 17: 14
      Quote: DesToeR
      Now there are at least 2 ammunition for any rifle complex, so what?

      What is it like? Do you have several types of ammunition of the same type? And I meant that for each species there were original ammunition.
      Quote: DesToeR
      DS-39 badly "ate" cartridges with a brass sleeve, there were practically no problems with steel.

      There were. The rupture of the liners continued. And the point was in the mechanism itself, and not in the sleeve material. Just steel and bimetallic sleeves tore apart not so often.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Dales - it's cool! And the fact that it’s easier to make them technologically than rings is nothing?

      Those. you decided to give me my argument as a counterargument. Cool.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Nesto you think that the SG-43 was not compared with the BEST models for 1943.

      And so what?
      Quote: DesToeR
      In the middle of the war, taking a model into service is worse than the enemy’s, at least it's stupid. Easier to copy.

      Not everything could be copied. The technological level of development of the countries was different. Besides, I already wrote, I do not consider the German "machine gun" concept to be successful. Perhaps the GAU thought the same.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The Germans did just that with their self-loading (when they got the better of their own development) - they copied our SVT-40.

      They made fun. Could still.
  25. 0
    22 August 2015 21: 54
    Quote: SEC
    What is it like? Do you have several types of ammunition of the same type? And I meant that for each species there were original ammunition.

    This is what I mean, several types of ammunition. And if one of them fits and the other does not, then it is quite possible to complete the machine gun with those with a steel sleeve. Moreover, they have been on stream for 9 years. What is the problem? The DS-39 machine gun suffered the same fate as the SVT-40 - a lot of money for production in the time pressure of the first months of the war. The result is the rejection of the system by the military in favor of old but well-established samples: the Maxim machine gun instead of the DS-39, the Mosin rifle instead of the SVT-40, the TT pistol instead of the Voevodin pistol. Only the PPSh was "lucky".
    Quote: SEC
    And the point was in the mechanism itself, and not in the sleeve material.

    They should have been - not all ammunition is of equal quality. The question is the percentage of these gaps ...
    Quote: SEC
    Those. you decided to give me my argument as a counterargument. Cool.

    No, I gave my interpretation of the fact of modernization. We had an IS-2M, an AKM, and an SGM. This does not mean at all that the IS tank, the Kalashnikov assault rifle and the Goryunov heavy machine gun were bad. This reflects the endless search of the army bosses in the field of improving the existing models in service. And you give out the fact of modernization under the "sauce" of the original design crap. I immediately have a question in this case: crap in comparison with what?
    Quote: SEC
    And so what?

    nothing, just the SG-43 was a really good machine gun.
    Quote: SEC
    Not everything could be copied. The technological level of development of the countries was different.

    It can also be applied to tanks and aircraft, but to the rifleman ... It would have been fine - they’ve fixed it. But take into service in 1943. machine gun, the principle of reloading which was based on the short course of the barrel - this was higher than the understanding of the military in the USSR.
    Quote: SEC
    They made fun. Could still.

    Could what? To copy not the best semi-automatic system for its time - yes, well done Germans.
    And, by the way, I never found Japanese machine guns with longitudinal valleys on the barrel - all that I saw have a "heating system" of the DC-39 type. But the modern level of advanced weapons thought in Japan, Type 62 of the 60s model, the barrel cooling system is noteworthy:
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      23 August 2015 09: 07
      Quote: DesToeR
      What is the problem? The DS-39 machine gun also suffered the same fate as the SVT-40 - a lot of money for production under time pressure of the first months of the war.

      What kind of money? They were full of troops. But when they began to actively exploit, it turned out that they were defective and not suitable for the army. Therefore, they were replaced by backward, but more or less suitable.
      Quote: DesToeR
      TT pistol instead of Vojvodina pistol

      Well, and here what advantages are lost? Two crappy items. Sewed on soap.
      Quote: DesToeR
      not all ammunition is of equal quality.

      air-conditioned army weapons should work with low-quality ammunition. If they are manufactured by industry. Exception, only defective ammunition.
      Quote: DesToeR
      This does not mean that the IS tank, Kalashnikov assault rifle and Goryunov's machine gun were bad.

      This means that these products were bad. This is especially true when you get a product with completely different consumer properties. As, for example, SG-43 and SGM. Then this is no longer modernization, but actually rearmament.
      Quote: DesToeR
      just the SG-43 was a really good machine gun.

      In order to refute this, it is enough to constantly look at his technical characteristics. And to understand that the SG-43 was a bad machine gun. Due to the low density of fire for weapons of this class. Only the SGM became a more or less normal machine gun.
      Quote: DesToeR
      it was higher than the understanding of the military in the USSR.

      There were many things beyond their understanding. Therefore, a weapon with a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm was adopted for service. And the cartridge itself. Very soon it was dismissed, and the money had already flown away. Also in the category of "misunderstanding" can be attributed to the concept of a "single pistol" PM. And there are also a bunch of examples.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Could what?

      Make fun. The CBT automation system was not original. The Germans chose the same. And here is the copy? In addition, the Germans were successful that the Tokarev failed. They picked up the shape of the gas vents of a normal shape. And their automation, in contrast to the automation of SVT, acted normally. Without their automation and automation AK would not exist.
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