How Europe helped Hitler

64
How Europe helped Hitler


Bandera lovers often blame Stalin for trade with Hitler before the war and the agreement on the division of Poland with the Baltic States. Let's look at the Europe of those years. If we compare at least the loss of some of the “innocent victims of Hitler’s aggression” in the battles against Germany and against the USSR, the question of their innocence becomes not so obvious.

Take, for example, Denmark and Norway.
 
When the Germans invaded these countries, the absolute majority of the Norwegian and almost all Danish military units did not give them any resistance, quietly allowing themselves to be disarmed, and in total during the years of the war and occupation the losses of the armed forces and underground fighters here amounted to slightly more than 2 thousand people.

At the same time, 900 from 14 thousands of Scandinavian volunteers who fought on Hitler’s side on the Eastern Front are buried in only one cemetery near Leningrad. And all of them died several times more, because the last military unit, staffed by the Norwegians and Danes, the division "Norland", was defeated by the Red Army already near Berlin.
 
The responses of the leaders of the Danish and Norwegian underground to the attempts of the British special services to establish cooperation with them are impressive. Gentlemen underground workers repeatedly and strongly demanded from England ... to stop supplying them weapon, because individual hotheads can foolishly use it, and then the Germans will get angry and they will plant someone.

The British were also urged not to call for sabotage the execution of orders for Germany (again, in order to avoid reprisals). And it is not indecent to not bomb military factories, since respectable citizens who worked there on the Fuhrer could accidentally suffer ... It is indecent to compare such “resistance” with what happened in the occupied territories of the USSR or in Yugoslavia.

It was not for nothing that when my friend's mother went to Denmark last year and asked a granny about suffering during the war years, she answered: “It’s harder that you could not get good coffee anywhere!”
 
The same picture was observed in other countries of Western Europe.

In particular, Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg, according to various sources, sent thousands to the Soviet-German front from 90 to 110, from France - from 140 to 180 thousand, and formally neutral Spain, Sweden and Switzerland - more than 50 thousand volunteers.

In general, comparing the number of citizens of these countries who died on both sides, involuntarily come to depressing conclusions. What can you say about the French, who from July 1940-th to May 1945-th on the side of the anti-Hitler coalition killed 45 thousand, and on the other side of the front at least 83 thousand?

Moreover, the French SS battalion from the Charlemagne Division defended the Reichstag when the Germans themselves fled from there.
 

West European states initially sent 7 SS legions to the Eastern Front (Danish, Norwegian, French, two Belgian and Dutch each), later deployed to the 6 divisions (Danish-Norwegian, French, two Belgian and two Dutch).

Distinguished in North Africa, the 90-I Light Infantry Division of the Rommel Corps was staffed mainly by soldiers of the French Foreign Legion. And hundreds of thousands of inhabitants of Alsace, Lorraine and Luxembourg and, naturally, Germans living in all European countries, served in Wehrmacht units on common grounds, as a rule, without forming separate units. One, allegedly, by force, captured in 1938, Austria gave the Wehrmacht 17 divisions, including the selected parts of the mountain shooters, which caused us so much trouble in the Arctic and the Caucasus.

 

Do not forget that a significant part of the French army after the surrender of 25 on June 1940 was neither disarmed by the Germans nor attached to the Wehrmacht, but under its own banners, it actively participated in combat operations against Anglo-American troops, their own partisans and troops of General de Gaulle.

Passed through in 1940-42's. in Algeria, Morocco, Equatorial Africa, Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Madagascar and Gibraltar, these battles, of course, cannot be compared with the Battle of Stalingrad, but for the Western theater of war they were quite serious and cost tens of thousands of dead and wounded to both sides.

It was in those places against the British and Americans that the main forces of the French acted fleetincluding 6 battleships, 4 cruisers, 1 seaplane air transport, 20 destroyers and 9 submarines. Most of them were sunk or captured, but the Allies lost three warships and several dozen aircraft, not counting damaged.

 

In addition to the armed forces proper, the absolute majority of the Western European police services were on the side of Germany.

For example, in Denmark, the Germans were assisted by more than 10 thousand policemen and gendarmes, in Holland only one of the three policemen numbered 19 thousand people, and in France, more than 60 thousand people served as members of the Gestapo and volunteer police!

 

“But after all, there were also underground fighters and partisans?” Some corrosive reader would ask. Of course, but - how much? Until recently, the numbers went absolutely fantastic. For example, the French communists swore that they had lost thousands of the best partigenos in the battles with the 70 occupiers, despite the fact that 20 thousands of underground fighters and partisans were killed in the Resistance movement during the four years of occupation in the country. None other than the comrades could not resist and added an extra zero!

 

For the sake of justice, it is worth noting that among all the participants in the Resistance movement, the Communists, along with Soviet prisoners of war and anti-Hitler-minded immigrants, were indeed the most numerous and warhead.

But this is true only in the period after the attack of the Germans and their allies on the USSR.

Before 22 June 1941, all the Western European communist parties were completely loyal to the Germans and in their newspapers published with the tacit consent of the Gestapo denounced mainly the British, and the workers were called upon not to participate in the imperialist war. That is, do not fight against Hitler.

Naturally, the Fuhrer was more than satisfied with this, and if he didn’t fall on us, you see, the Marxist-Leninist comrades would have had a handful of warm places during the occupation administration.

No wonder the French Communists have long begged the Germans for the restoration of the rights of their deputies, who were expelled from the municipalities after the ban by the authorities of the Communist Party, and its future leader Georges Marchais diligently worked on the German military factories!

 

There is nothing to say about other political organizations, they were so sluggish.

When historians tried to conduct a sociological analysis of the Resistance participants, it turned out that only one guerrilla unit in the Haute Savoie department of the 40 fighters turned out to be 11 communists and their sympathizers and 7 of Yugoslav emigrants, and the 35 of the most militant partisan detachments consisted almost exclusively of Soviet members of the Yugoslav emigrants, and the most militant partisan detachments consisted almost entirely of Soviet Yugoslav emigrants.

The overwhelming majority of participants in the Resistance Movement, not belonging to communists, emigrants, captured Red Army men and hijacked from the USSR, were only considered underground workers, but in fact waited for the weather at the sea or even actively worked for the Germans.

In Norway, from 50 with more than thousands of members of underground armed groups, a large part of them served in the police at the same time, helping the Gestapo to catch their own comrades, and the overwhelming majority of others simply sat their pants until Victory Day came and the Germans did not capitulate without their participation.

 

The role of the “victims of the occupation” and the “neutral countries” in the military production of the Third Reich was especially great. Out of about 53 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns used by the Germans during the war, over 8 thousand were built in Czech and French factories. Aircraft, guns, and ammunition were produced in full at enterprises of the occupied countries. For example, Leningrad during the blockade, along with Krupp’s guns, fired at 240-mm howitzers of the French concern Le Creusot and the Czech Skoda.

The Czech ammunition for the Wehrmacht was of such high quality that when, in 1999, a large lot of them were attempted to smuggle into Kosovo’s militants, no misfire had occurred on the control shots conducted by St. Petersburg customs! Even more significant is the role of European countries in solving the transport problems of the German army.

From France alone, the Germans received 1940 thousands of locomotives and 5 thousands of cars in 250 year. The 92 soldiers of Hitler's divisions from 153 deployed on the Soviet border 74 a year ago, prepared to drive us in French cars, and in 1943, every sixth truck in the Wehrmacht was built at the factories of the occupied territories.

 

The Fuhrer and the neutrals helped a lot.

Almost every third projectile was made of steel smelted from Swedish ore, and almost all the necessary tungsten came from Portugal. In addition, fellow countrymen Carlson, who lives on the roof, until 1944, regularly provided their territory for the German military traffic, and the Finns, allied to Hitler, were in abundance supplied with all the necessary armament, including fighters and self-propelled anti-aircraft installations. About all sorts of little things, such as the provision of intelligence and refueling German submarines in the Spanish naval bases, and say nothing.

As for the alleged refusal of General Franco to officially join the war on the side of the Reich, in fact, the caudillo was very much against it, but in order to bring the Spanish army in any effective state, such resources were needed that Hitler, looking On the list compiled by Franco, I decided to spend the requested on something more useful.

 

Moreover, as a neutral country, Spain in many respects was even more profitable for him. After all, otherwise the Führer would have been far more difficult to obtain the oil of the American company Standard Oil, which was vital for him. This sweetest corporation almost the entire war, in which, if you remember, the States fought against Germany, regularly supplied Spain with "black gold", knowing full well that it would resell it to Berlin. And the paralyzed grandfather Roosevelt knew about that, but did not interfere.

War is war and business is business.

This is how Adolf Aloizovich helped all of the “neutral” and “occupied” continental Europe, and in part even America.

And all this without taking into account the allies, so to speak, official, that is, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Croatia. Here, the number of military personnel participating in the hostilities goes to millions, especially if one does not forget that Italy then belonged to Albania and Kosovo, Bosnia was part of Croatia, and Macedonia was part of Bulgaria.

 

What is the result? Poland? Partly yes, but it is worth remembering that here too in the German army thousands of citizens fought over 100, who had a Polish passport on 1 of September 1939 of the year. Not to mention the Craiova Army subordinate to the emigre government in London, which fought against the Red Army no less, if not more, than against Germany. Switzerland?

Apart from the already mentioned volunteers in the SS and intelligence, the role of the Swiss banks in the financial operations of the Reich has not yet been fully clarified, but no one has any doubt that it was huge.

 

Even European Jews, who still receive compensation from the Fritz for all the real and imaginary suffering for a thousand years ahead, and they participated.

In Soviet captivity, by the end of the war, there were over 10 thousands of Jews who served both in the Wehrmacht and in the armies of the allied states, including the already mentioned French division of the SS "Charlemagne". Among the German Jews were many high-ranking officers, the most famous of which is the second after Himmler, the head of the SS and the Czech Gauleiter Reinhardt Heydrich and the first deputy of Goering, Field Marshal Erich Milch.

The Jews who served in the Finnish army even had a marching synagogue on the Svir River, two of whose regular visitors — Major Leo Skurnik and Captain Solomon Klass — were represented by German allies to the Iron Cross I-st ​​degree.

 

It turns out that, whatever one may say, the overwhelming majority of European citizens collaborated with the Germans, guided by ideological and purely selfish considerations (especially in the sense of living on the rich Russian expanses).

And the Führer, respectively, actually headed the crusade against Russia. In full accordance with the plans of its predecessors in 1240-45. (Livonian Order with Balts, Sweden with Finland, Hungary, Poland and Pope standing behind them), 1812 (Napoleon led almost all of Europe) and 1918-20. (the same Europe with sided Americans and Japanese).

In this sense, NATO and the European Union are perfectly legitimate and worthy followers of the possessed Fuhrer.

At least, the dismemberment of Yugoslavia and the bombing of its Orthodox republics (the only ones, by the way, practically did not participate in numerous Western interventions in Russia), and the plundering of our country under the guise of business, and the support of gangsters who fought in the Chechen Republic, fully comply with the ideas of Adolf Aloizovich.
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  1. +12
    22 August 2015 06: 31
    That’s why they are so loyal to the revival of Nazism, because most of the gay people living then didn’t see anything bad from him - well, then some military men walked the streets, organized, to the music, they didn’t bother anyone like now. y-parades go there, also without disturbing any of them.
    And the stars, hung by our ancestors (I am proud of them), did not let them sleep peacefully, they dreamed of taking revenge for the events of centuries-old and recent history, and here they helped voluntarily and with the song in the crusade to the east.
    1. +7
      22 August 2015 07: 24
      In this sense, NATO and the European Union are perfectly legitimate and worthy followers of the possessed Fuhrer.
      - from article

      Now again, the whole of Europe with the United States against Russia. The leaders of our state poorly learn the lessons of history - at all times, practically all of Europe has been our clear or potential enemies.
      It is only from these positions that any diplomatic negotiations and relations should be conducted with them: to do only what is beneficial to Russia and nothing more, no preferences, let alone privileges and debt cancellation under any "friendly" relations.
      Unfortunately, to Russian leaders, at all times, this is not a decree; each new Ruler (President, Secretary General, etc.) is his own master at the disposal of the interests, territories and riches of Russia and the people. There is only one exception to this list over the past century - IV Stalin, who himself wore old shabby boots, but protected the wealth and territory of Russia from unfriendly neighbors.
      1. +1
        22 August 2015 08: 46
        ABOUT! God, what are you talking about? The leaders of our state did not know the fundamental documents of Marxism-Leninism. When I wrote a work on the history of the party, the quotations from Marx's Capital and Lenin's History of the Development of Capitalism in Russia did not coincide with Brezhnev's statements and Suslov's delirium. THREE months the KGB was trying to find out if I was a dissident. Well, the investigator was caught by the way, figured it out and did not begin to inflate this story But he flew out of the Komsomol. Well, the institute was allowed to finish in absentia. They are fighting for power, and you want to take care of the country. But otherwise I join the majority on the forum: Russia and Putin they are prevented from bringing the Ledaras to power, seizing power with their help, turning the people into slaves and then ruling themselves.
        1. +10
          22 August 2015 10: 32
          And I’ll add that this year marks 70 years since VATNIKI brought the EU leader to suicide
        2. +2
          23 August 2015 19: 44
          Quote: Amurets
          quotations from "Capital" by Marx and from "The History of the Development of Capitalism in Russia" by Lenin did not coincide with the statements of Brezhnev and the delirium of Suslov ... flew out of the Komsomol
          It is hard to believe that at the history department (?) You were expelled from the Komsomol for quotations from the named works of Marx and Lenin. You do not have texts with "statements and delusions" (links) and quotes? Or from memory, maybe? And what level was the work? And then you talk about such passions about the country in which I was born and raised, but did not know, it turns out ...
        3. -1
          29 August 2015 13: 42
          And what about Putin and the company, in what capacity? A good master of slaves is good and cares ...
      2. -13
        22 August 2015 19: 16
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Now again all of Europe with the USA against Russia

        And when was Europe and the USA against Russia?
        In the era of the Napoleonic wars, the war of Russia on the continent was paid by Britain. Since Britain paid for everything, after the defeat of Napoleon, she was in charge of Europe. Russia has traditionally paid with human lives. The United States was not yet ripe for solving global problems.
        Roughly the same thing happened during WW2, only the United States joined Britain. Because The USSR also incurred part of the costs, they were given a bonus in the form of Eastern Europe. Which in the end was not a bonus, but a weight on his feet. That is, Alexander I was much smarter than Stalin.
        And where did you see here that AGAIN ALL Europe and the USA were against Russia? Britain and the USA IS ALWAYS were on the same side with Russia. True, the role of Russia in these alliances was unenviable. For her people. And for its leaders, it’s nothing, the role of honor was. Therefore, they so willingly agreed to it.
        If you mean the so-called. "Cold War", in fact, of course it was not a war. It was an economic competition between two economic systems. Which resulted in the so-called. "Arms Race". As a result, the USSR (the feudal economic system) quite naturally overstrained and burst. Like a horse named Bolivar. If only two were put on it.
    2. 0
      22 August 2015 07: 32
      You are naive. Many people either knew or guessed about the "goals and methods" (repression, murder, etc., because in order to get the same lands, you need to free them from the people already living on them, and what would happen to them all did not care) ... So it was all deliberate, simple calculation.

      And what about us? "- it's just their mentality, to shout that they were beaten for nothing.

      By the way, it seemed strange to me that the "agents of influence" of the West had not yet unsubscribed here, that this was all a lie and a provocation ... laughing , but quickly remembered that on the promised land still probably not everyone had woken up, and the day off ... laughing
      1. +2
        22 August 2015 10: 30
        Europe has a peculiarity, to come together every 100 years and get stars from Russia
        1. -13
          22 August 2015 11: 11
          Just the same 100 years ago they did not receive the stars (
          1. +6
            22 August 2015 13: 09
            Quote: Explorer
            Just the same 100 years ago they did not receive the stars (

            Hmm ... and who? In my opinion, all the interventionists were thrown out of the country and with non-financial losses. All the Americans and the British and the rest of the French and the Japanese received a star duel.
        2. MrK
          +4
          22 August 2015 12: 37
          Thanks sanja.grw. I will supplement it. Purely human they can be understood - over the past decades, Europeans have somewhat weaned from the immediate simplicity of the Slavs, who more than once in history wiped their dirty manure on their well-groomed and well-groomed European faces.
    3. 0
      22 August 2015 10: 41
      the fact that the USSR fought not with Germany, but with the whole of Europe was spoken by the writer Yuri Mukhin, who is now in prison on far-fetched charges.
      What are the warriors the same French who surrendered in 40 days, and the Poles in 2 weeks, like that warriors.
      It is noteworthy that only Yugoslavs and Russians were able to provide real resistance to the Germans. And the Angles were always regarded by Hitler as a brotherly people to the Germans, and this war with England was, so to say, a STRANGE WAR and without the help of the United States, of course, we would never have stood up to confrontation with Germany and united europe.
      The blow of the Germans in the Ardennes was so strong that Churchill asked Stalin to launch an offensive early, which Stalin did to save the "allies".
      The question arises - "why did all these" independent "and sovereigns turn out to be so helpless and incapable of defending their" freedom "? The answer lies in the past of this Europe. If you look at the cultural component of Europe, it turns out that all these countries, that the Germans, that the Italians, that the same Poles or Czechs have more in common than differences.Religion? Catholicism and Protestantism in the foreseeable past never clashed with each other and were an instrument for the successful management of peoples, and the defining moments of history Catholicism has always taken the role of a unifying principle and the church has always been led by politics.
      The so-called "will of the people" in history textbooks has never been a real and decisive force in the course of history due to the fact that people are not able to agree with each other and a unifying moment for confrontation, war or some other misfortune has ALWAYS been the guiding force of the PERSONALITY, i.e. ... elite of the people, you can unite the people either FORCE or MONEY buying soldiers for the war.
      So these "elites" in France, Austria, Holland, Norway, Bulgaria are ONE AND THE SAME PEOPLE, in fact, they are ONE FAMILY of monarchs, presidents, bankers and politicians who have always been in the shadow of politics, but it was they who started wars and it is they who have always tasted the fruits of world wars, regardless of whether the people win or lose - the elites always win.
      Therefore, if we consider real history, then we must consider the past of kings and presidents - they have one root and one pedigree. Bulgaria can be cited as an example, where as the closest and kindred people for the Russian people, however, wait, the Bulgarians have always fought on the side of the Russian enemies, and why? because it is not the people who determine the policy, but the rulers, the same Bulgarian kings - they were the same Germans as the Romanovs, Hohenzeulerns, Habsburgs, Oldenburgs. These monarchs decided who should own what and how much and how many people were needed for the country, when there are too many people, as in pre-revolutionary Russia, then such people need to be dressed up through war, which was done. During the years of the First World War and the Civil War in Russia, the following died:
      From 1917 to 1922, the population of Russia decreased by 13-16 million people, while most of them died from hunger and epidemics. Given the decline in population growth compared to peacetime, the loss of population of Russia amounted to 25 million people.
      http://www.protown.ru/information/hide/5861.html
      this is according to the most conservative estimates. The Second World War claimed the lives of another 25-30 million people. Mendeleev believed that by the mid-20th century, up to 500 million people should live in Russia, but such a figure did not suit the world elites, therefore, through wars, the population of Russia was reduced, as can be seen at times.
      Therefore, in order to understand all these modern wars and political cataclysms, it is not necessary to consider the history of wars and the history of "peoples", but to consider the history of the elites of the peoples, then an understanding of history will come.
      1. +2
        22 August 2015 13: 30
        Quote: War and Peace
        As an example, we can cite Bulgaria, which is far more like the closest and kindred nation for the Russian people, however, you have accomplished it, the Bulgarians have always fought on the side of the Russian enemies, and why? P

        It has become a sick tradition to present Bulgaria as a "traitor and enemy" of Russia. Moreover, this is done by people who are absolutely ignorant of either history or facts. Let's leave the controversy behind and watch an interview with one of the most knowledgeable people in modern Russia. General Leonid Petrovich Reshetnikov - Director of the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies.

        Information - The Russian Institute for Strategic Studies (RISI) is a large research and analytical center established by the President of the Russian Federation. The main task of the RISI is to provide information to the Administration of the President of the Russian Federation, the Federation Council and the State Duma, the Security Council, the Government apparatus, ministries and departments. RISI provides expert assessments, recommendations, prepares information and analytical materials for the above structures.

        Here is the link on the u-tube. I recommend everyone to see until the end! I think it will be good and it's time to leave the stamps on the side. They are not in favor of either the Russians or the Bulgarians.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTPA9M2HDTE
        1. +2
          22 August 2015 18: 07
          Quote: pytar
          from and link to u-tube. I recommend everyone to see until the end!


          this way they don’t argue on the forums, you’ll please state the main idea briefly, because people’s time is not rubber ...
          1. +4
            22 August 2015 21: 07
            Just watch the video! Everything is said there, moreover, from a very competent and knowledgeable person. I have argued many times with different suits of "experts", but apparently people find it difficult to grow out of their delusions. Maybe it will be easier for them to perceive the truth from the mouths of General Reshetnikov.
            1. +1
              22 August 2015 22: 13
              Quote: pytar
              Just watch the video! Everything is said there, moreover, from a very competent and knowledgeable person. I have argued many times with different suits of "experts", but apparently people find it difficult to grow out of their delusions. Maybe it will be easier for them to perceive the truth from the mouths of General Reshetnikov.


              Well, what kind of Svobyan-Bulgarians everything is decided by their German rulers and I knew he didn’t say anything new ...
      2. -1
        22 August 2015 21: 36
        Quote: War and Peace
        The Germans' strike in the Ardennes was so strong that Churchill asked Stalin to launch the offensive early

        I did it right. It was his job title. Protect the lives of fellow citizens in all possible ways.
        Quote: War and Peace
        which Stalin did to save the "allies."

        And the grave of the life of their slaves. After all, the offensive was not prepared to the end. In Britain, for such an act, he would at least be sent to prison for such an act. It is customary for fellow citizens to be protected, slaves are not accepted.
        Quote: War and Peace
        As an example, we can cite Bulgaria, which is already far as the closest and kin people for the Russian people

        This is how to look. If in terms of culture, then kindred. If in terms of genetics, then nothing in common. And genetically the most kindred for Russians is the Polish people. Can you call him close?
        Quote: War and Peace
        Bulgarians always fought on the side of Russian enemies

        Only during 1MB. During WW2 in 1944 The USSR declared war on Bulgaria and immediately occupied its territory.
        Quote: War and Peace
        but such a figure did not suit the world elites, therefore, through wars, the population of Russia was reduced, as can be seen at times.

        Who is the "world elite"? Romanovs (not all)? Lenin? Stalin? All these bloodsuckers were engaged in the extermination of the population of Russia in one form or another. But what do they have to do with the world's elites?
        1. +1
          22 August 2015 22: 11
          Quote: SEC
          Who is the "world elite"? Romanovs (not all)? Lenin? Stalin? All these bloodsuckers were engaged in the extermination of the population of Russia in one form or another. But what do they have to do with the world's elites?


          world elites are those who rule the world and create world orders, who own all the finances of the planet, who can start wars, who create nations and nullify them, who rule the borders of states, that’s what they are ...
          1. -1
            22 August 2015 22: 23
            Quote: War and Peace
            world elites are those who rule the world and create world orders, who own all the finances of the planet, who can start wars, who create nations and nullify them, who rule the borders of states, that’s what they are ...

            I guessed that.
            What relation did Stalin and Lenin have to them? Were they hired by them (elites)? Or were they part of them? After all, the population of Russia was declining most actively under their "sensitive guidance." Some Romanovs did not lag behind either.
            1. 0
              23 August 2015 10: 24
              Quote: SEC
              Quote: War and Peace
              world elites are those who rule the world and create world orders, who own all the finances of the planet, who can start wars, who create nations and nullify them, who rule the borders of states, that’s what they are ...

              I guessed that.
              What relation did Stalin and Lenin have to them? Were they hired by them (elites)? Or were they part of them? After all, the population of Russia was declining most actively under their "sensitive guidance." Some Romanovs did not lag behind either.


              the mysteries of the eras, as they were, and remain, and the fact that various "examinations" are being carried out, such as the recognition of the remains of the Romanovs, somehow does not inspire confidence. For example, there is a version that LENIN is the same collective image as, say, Shakespeare or Stirlitz, and under the LENIN project there is exactly what people are not supposed to know, most likely we will not find out, at least with this power, but some FACTS, this is exactly the case with We can state with a capital letter, namely, that without BIG MONEY and BIG LIES, major SOCIAL CATACLYSMS are not committed, therefore the Bolsheviks had a lot of money for the organization, which means that funding came from abroad.
              The Stalinist figure may be less mysterious, but there are questions like his time, you can say MEGA-QUESTIONS to which there is no answer, for example, Professor Katasonov brought up the question of Stalin's industrialization, and this question still hangs and there is no answer to it, namely. During the INDUSTRIALIZATION of that time, about 9 thousand large enterprises were created, while the USSR of those years could independently produce concrete and independently build, the EQUIPMENT did not produce the USSR and had to buy all this abroad, but at the same time, as Katasonov calculated for each enterprise in gold equivalent it took 3 tons of gold to get 27 THOUSAND TONS of GOLD went to the STALIN INDUSTRIALIZATION only in payment for equipment. Where did the USSR get such money-assets-gold from? No COLLECTIVIZATION and the robbery of the peasantry and the gold reserves of the country of those years DO NOT EXPLAIN such possibilities of the USSR of those years. That is the question, so the question. It turns out that the world elites or whoever is behind them are still interested in the great Russian state, but on the basis of our history they are interested in it as a TARGET, because given the scale of the losses of RUSI-RUSSIA-the USSR throughout the entire historical period, they are holding us to confront the earth, that there would ALWAYS be wars and ALWAYS there was a confrontation of peoples, this is what regulates the population on the planet best ...
              1. -1
                23 August 2015 12: 02
                Quote: War and Peace
                therefore, the Bolsheviks had considerable money for the organization, which means funding came from abroad.

                What milestone? They engaged in robbery. Stalin generally began as a typical raider. And besides this, the capitalists gave money. Under feudalism, capitalists always give the opposition money. They want a revolution. Capitalism. Because under feudalism, the capitalists are uncomfortable.
                Quote: War and Peace
                During the INDUSTRIALIZATION of that time, about 9 thousand large enterprises were created if the USSR

                Quote: War and Peace
                it turns out 27 THOUSAND TONS of GOLD was spent on the STALIN INDUSTRIALIZATION only in payment for equipment.

                Quote: war and peace
                This is the question, so the question

                What is the question? Everything is simple. In fact, it was planned to build 9000 enterprises. And God forbid they built 900. This is socialism. Plans were corrected all the way. Therefore, the initial figures can not even be watched. And in general, pre-war industrialization is a communist bluff. Postscripts and fraud. The myth of the name of agitprop. Given that all the fruits of this industrialization were aimed at strengthening the Red Army, then no industrialization is visible before the war.
                Real industrialization began in 1942. Lend-Lease, not Gold. Those. paid by human lives, not money. After the war, it lasted for German trophies. And it ended unknown when. But back in the 40s, under Stalin. Then everything moved by inertia until it stopped and turned into stagnation.
                Quote: War and Peace
                still interested in the great Russian state

                It is likely that soon enough you will be able to get an answer to your assumption.
                Quote: War and Peace
                we are held precisely for confrontation on earth, so that there ALWAYS there are wars and ALWAYS there is a confrontation of peoples - this is what regulates the population on the planet best ...

                What kind of opposition? Isn't it time to quit conspiracy theories? Once Russia hired the Britons to pacify the French rebels in Europe. And 2 more times she was hired by the same Britons to pacify the German rebels in the same place. And once she promised to take part in the Far East to pacify the Japanese rebels. This is only from the 19th century. In all cases, Russia suffered heavy human losses and from this its population was decreasing at a catastrophic rate. With whom did you notice the "confrontation on earth"? In which cases?
                1. +2
                  23 August 2015 12: 24
                  Quote: SEC
                  What milestone? They engaged in robbery.


                  Have you seen enough of Hollywood? to loot for a revolution is perhaps a fantasy ...

                  Quote: SEC
                  What is the question? Everything is simple. In fact, it was planned to build 9000 enterprises. And God forbid they built 900. This is socialism.


                  only for 41g during the EVACUATION of factories from west to east of the country 1500 enterprises were evacuated, and not all, Dneproges, of course, couldn’t, but you say 900, the numbers of 9 thousand enterprises were given by Professor Katasonov, can you believe him? probably you can ...


                  Quote: SEC
                  Is it time to tie with conspiracy


                  blindfold should be blindfolded, AND WHEN THERE ARE FACTS it is better to use your own eyes, because everyone lies around from top to bottom, from the past to the present he does not see only the blind and the fact that not Russians are sitting at the top instead of Russians is also very noticeable, so what untie, untie ...
                  1. -3
                    23 August 2015 12: 57
                    Quote: War and Peace
                    Have you seen enough of Hollywood?

                    Was Hollywood filming the film "Stalin's Youth"? Do not remember that. What, really about the "exes" have not heard anything? The Bolsheviks justified these robberies with "lofty goals". Therefore, they were called not robberies, but exas (expropriation).
                    Quote: War and Peace
                    only for 41g during the EVACUATION of plants from west to east of the country 1500 enterprises were evacuated

                    And what, before the Bolsheviks in Russia was a desert? You are mistaken. Under the tsar, Russia was quite a strong middle peasant. This is already under the Bolsheviks, she slipped into the world trash. But with Gagarin and the atomic bomb in the form of candy.
                    In addition, I very much doubt the figure of "1500 enterprises". These are the Bolsheviks. They have lies for lies. There is no trust and cannot be.
                    Quote: War and Peace
                    and you say 900, the figures of 9 thousand enterprises were brought by Professor Katasonov, can we believe him? probably you can ...

                    And I think you can't. That is why the numbers "do not go" for him. And to dig deeper and find out what was actually built there, he cannot. Or doesn't want to. I know that in the defense industry, and all the money went there, nothing was allocated for consumer goods, one (1) art factory was purchased in Germany. He produced anti-aircraft guns and anti-tank magpies, also a project of German processing. I almost forgot about the 37-mm cannon and its sleeve. There was also purchased a cartridge factory chambered for 7,62x25 mm TT. The mountain gun was not bought, but exchanged with the Czechs for the SB, but the production of the cartridge case was mastered. Even before the war, they mastered the production of a new sleeve for the ZIS-2. That's all the "grandiose expenses" for the Red Army (probably forgot something else on trifles). It seems that equipment was also purchased for plant No. 352 in Novocherkassk, but this is actually unknown. Is this industrialization? This is laughter through tears.
                    Quote: War and Peace
                    and the fact that non-Russians are sitting at the top instead of Russians is also very noticeable, so untie, untie ...

                    So, after all, the Russian Federation is not a national state of Russians. Read the Constitution of the Russian Federation, chapter 1, article 3, paragraph 1.
                    1. 0
                      23 August 2015 13: 51
                      Quote: SEC
                      Was Hollywood filming the film "Stalin's Youth"? Do not remember that


                      you don’t understand, they usually take pictures of hollywood about how good guys take off well in millions, and so it usually doesn’t happen, but if it does, then it’s not enough for a revolution ...

                      Quote: SEC
                      And what, before the Bolsheviks in Russia was a desert? You are mistaken. Under the tsar, Russia was quite a strong middle peasant.


                      you seemed to have fallen from the moon, about shell hunger even heard in 1 world.? there were no trains Lenin bought in Sweden, there was no electricity - had to urgently introduce a plan?


                      Quote: SEC
                      And I think you can't. That is why the numbers "do not go" for him. And to dig deeper and find out what was actually built there, he cannot. Or doesn't want to.


                      let's dig so say lies? But after all, everyone knows that under Stalin it was the WHOLE INDUSTRIES, machine building, tractor building, aircraft building that were created.
                      How much and what is needed to make a car? We need metallurgy, non-ferrous metallurgy, metalworking, the production of electricity, the production of electrical apparatus and electrical systems, the production of roads, the production of fuel, technical fluids and rubber products, the production of auto glass, and training. This is only what is needed for the production of a car, and these are exactly dozens of factories, and there were already a lot of automobile factories and tractor plants.


                      The results of the economic genius of Stalin and his system are amazing:
                      The increase in industrial production in the USSR and in the capitalist countries (as a percentage of 1929)


                      C o u n n y Y o y
                      1929 1937 1943 1946 1949 1950 1952 1955
                      S S S R 100 429 573 446 870 1082 1421 2049
                      All capitalist countries 100 104 - 107 130 148 164 193
                      Including:

                      USA 100 103 215 153 164 190 210 234
                      England 100 124 231 118 144 153 153 181
                      France 100 82 - 63 92 92 108 125
                      Italy 100 99 - 72 108 124 148 194
                      West Germany 100 114 - 35 93 117 150 213
                      Japan 100 169 - 51 101 115 173 239

                      For a quarter of a century, or rather for 26 years, the Soviet Union, despite the enormous damage !!! caused to its national economy by the war, increased industrial production by more than 20 times, while the United States, under extremely favorable conditions, was able to increase production only a little more than 2 times, and in general the industry of the capitalist world did not even give such an increase.
                      http://greatstalin.ru/economylifting.aspx
                      1. +3
                        23 August 2015 13: 54
                        The possibilities and advantages of a socialist planned economy have become undeniable. The English Round Table magazine wrote: “The achievements of the five-year plan are an amazing phenomenon. Tractor plants in Kharkov and Stalingrad, the AMO automobile plant in Moscow, the automobile plant in Nizhny Novgorod, the Dnepropetrovsk hydroelectric station, the grandiose steel mills in Magnitogorsk and Kuznetsk, the whole network of engineering and chemical plants in the Urals, which is turning into the Soviet Ruhr, are all these and others industrial achievements throughout the country show that no matter what difficulties, Soviet industry, like a well-irrigated plant, grows and grows stronger ... The five-year plan laid the foundations for future development and extremely strengthened the power of the USSR. ”

                        The results of the second five-year plan (1933–1937) were no less impressive. The country was still booming, but the world around was not changing for the better. In Germany, the Nazis came to power. No matter what the demoners of Stalin say today, he already in 1933 was fully aware of the inevitability of war. This largely determined the economic policy of the country.


                        and finally, the MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT in favor of Stalin and his system of the USSR was able to win the war WITH ALL HELPFUL EUROPE, so most likely someone else is lying ...
                      2. -2
                        23 August 2015 17: 18
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        The USSR was able to win the war with all hostile Europe

                        To begin with, there was no "harmful Europe". There was a hostile PART OF CONTINENTAL Europe. But apart from this not very large segment of the world economy, almost the entire rest of the world economy was on the SIDE of the USSR. Almost, because there were still a number of neutral countries.
                        About "won". Is it not possible in more detail that "Stalin won"? That's right, the preservation of its anti-people regime. And what did the Soviet people gain, who invested tens of millions of lives in the victory over Germany and her allies? That's right, the donut hole.
                      3. -1
                        23 August 2015 17: 42
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        , about shell hunger even heard in 1 world.?

                        So what? Is this a sign of the country's backwardness? So at the time of the Soviets there were more of these "hungers". Not only slug. There was also just an armory. People went to the attack with PPSh. This is, like with axes and pitchforks, only a little bit cooler.
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        there were no trains Lenin bought in Sweden

                        Maybe I bought it. First, all their plants were defeated and plundered, and then they could well be purchased abroad. These are the Bolsheviks, everything could be expected from them.
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        There was no electricity - I had to urgently introduce the Goelro plan

                        Respected. You do not retell shovels to me. I am not sensitive to them.
                        Russia built squadron battleships. Bad, basically. But very similar to the real ones. And this is an indicator of the level of development of the country in those years. In the world, no more than 10 countries built ships of this kind. The rest could not. So, do not la la. And somehow there was enough electricity.
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        it was the WHOLE INDUSTRIES, mechanical engineering, tractor engineering, aircraft construction that were created.

                        So what? What are these achievements? There were no normal tanks or normal aircraft in the country. Moreover, if it were not for Lend-Lease, then I would have had to fight on I-16. For modern aircraft engines there was no gasoline. Mostly American, as well as American and TPP.
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        This is only what is needed for the production of a car, and these are exactly dozens of factories, and there were already a lot of automobile factories and tractor plants.

                        There were many plants. There was little production. Do you understand? The USSR received good cars by Lend-Lease. This is a common fact. And in the USSR they made self-propelled carts of the type of one and a half. And not enough.
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        The results of the economic genius of Stalin and his system are amazing

                        Of course they amaze. To rivet thousands of legally incapacitated tanks, planes, guns, and then toss it all away. And as a result, to fight with weapons of the times of 1MB.
                        But to arm the infantrymen instead of the normal weapons of the PPSh, what is this called? You read how many shells were made in the USSR. This is horror, there were practically no shells.
                        Anti-aircraft guns were not released. As a result, the Baltic Fleet was destroyed. And the Black Sea was defeated and driven into the far corner of the Black Sea, where they could not get it from the air. Here is the result of the "rapid construction of the RKKF". Money in the trash.
                        And such examples, everywhere and in everything. Stupid mismanagement and a mess of the Bolsheviks, this is something. It’s amazing.
                      4. +1
                        23 August 2015 18: 06
                        Quote: SEC
                        Of course they amaze. To rivet thousands of legally incapacitated tanks, planes, guns, and then toss it all away. And as a result, to fight with weapons of the times of 1MB.


                        in general, in the USSR there was the best tank of all countries, times and peoples — this is the T34 and everyone recognizes it, even pin_day, but you are no longer inadequate to argue with you, everything is bad, and everything is good, probably a Jew, you in America need ...
                      5. -3
                        23 August 2015 18: 35
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        actually in the USSR there was the best tank of all countries, times and peoples - this is t34 and everyone recognizes this, even pin_day

                        Gee-gee. You once again managed to make me laugh. Only the Bolsheviks could call the T-34 a "good tank". Can you develop their thoughts and specifically describe what was good for the little-good T-34 tin can? No bombastic slogans.
                        I recommend that you remember 1 simple axiom in a technologically backward country IMPOSSIBLE to create good quality products by yourself. This applies to everything that requires at least some kind of "technological stress". Sour cream and cottage cheese are not included in this nomenclature. Tanks and aircraft (and even just self-loading rifles) are included. Remember this the next time you write about the "genius Soviet cannon of WW2".
                        This does not apply to complex purchases abroad, i.e. equipment + technology. In this case, normal world-class products can be obtained for some time. And then, either the whole world will then go forward again, or these technologies must be developed. To recline on the furnace will not work.
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        you are inadequate, everything is bad with us, and everything is good with them, probably a Jew, you need to go to America ...

                        No, I just prefer to write the truth. And if under the Bolsheviks everything was really bad (mainly the state system), I am writing about it directly. And to call after agitprop the bad "the best in the world" is not patriotism. Doctors call it differently.
                        PS. Enough "fighting". Stop dividing the whole world into "us and them". This is an unhealthy phenomenon. Why is it bad for you? Are you missing victims? Hunger, cold and typhoid fever? Look, you are calling. Pah-pah three times.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. -2
                        23 August 2015 17: 59
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        For a quarter of a century, or rather for 26 years, the Soviet Union, despite the enormous damage !!! caused to its national economy by the war, increased industrial production by more than 20 times, while the United States, under extremely favorable conditions, was able to increase production only a little more than 2 times, and in general the industry of the capitalist world did not even give such an increase.

                        My dear. Whom do you want to mislead? Me? Will not work. Count at times, this is a clever shovel invention. Due to the fact that Lenin and the Bolsheviks completely destroyed the country. And they had a low base. Generally, of course, this is amazing. No Mamai could destroy the country as much as "good grandfather Lenin" and his gang did. By the end of his reign, the country was in complete ruins. Churchill called this period "Russia with a plow."
                        Therefore, according to the method of the Bolsheviks, things in the USSR under Stalin were hurt. For example, in 1929. in the USSR conditionally made 1 steam locomotive. And in 1955, 20 steam locomotives. 20 times growth, hurt yourself. The beauty.
                        In the same 1929 1000 conventionally made locomotives in the USA. And in 1955 2000 steam locomotives. That's bad. The growth is only 2 times.
                        But in fact, does this correspond to reality? And so on in all "industries". Everywhere there was the same puffy low base advantage.
                        And this is the whole "Soviet statistics". Sheer lies. From the constant lies these Bolsheviks are already sick.
                        Also, take a close look at these "products". I recommend.
                      8. 0
                        23 August 2015 18: 39
                        Russian land on Mudakov is not impoverished. It’s not hard to explain, but in paddddlllluuu. Rotten ...
                      9. 0
                        23 August 2015 19: 01
                        Why are you talking about yourself? No, I understand self-criticism. But why?
                      10. 0
                        23 August 2015 20: 41
                        Quote: noWAR
                        Russian land on Mudakov is not impoverished. It’s not hard to explain, but in paddddlllluuu. Rotten ...


                        Yes, an unpleasant type ...
                      11. 0
                        23 August 2015 21: 14
                        Quote: War and Peace
                        Yes, an unpleasant type ...

                        And you there too? Today, among my opponents there is a direct epidemic of self-criticism.
                      12. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +1
                      23 August 2015 18: 29
                      Quote: SEC
                      Was Hollywood filming the film "Stalin's Youth"? Do not remember that. What, have you really heard nothing about the "Exs"?

                      Who cares? Is Balabanov a “great historian?” “Truth in the last resort?” Directors, like actors, are mostly corrupt. In a literal sense.
                      About "ex" ... Give an example of the most famous.
                      Quote: SEC
                      Was there a desert in Russia before the Bolsheviks? You are wrong. Russia under the tsar was a fairly strong middle peasant. It was already under the Bolsheviks that it slipped into the world's garbage. But with Gagarin and the atomic bomb in the form of a candy bar. In addition, I very much doubt the figure of "1500 enterprises". These are the Bolsheviks. They have lies for lies. There is no trust and cannot be.
                      As for the garbage ... Lies. And by the way. "Thanks" to people like you, the civil war in Russia will never end. You write that you doubt, and at the same time, categorically accuse you of lying. Hmm ... At least, ugly ...
                      1. -2
                        23 August 2015 19: 07
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        About "ex" ... Give an example of the most famous.

                        Already wrote. Again, the gun will not. I will copy the already written.
                        For example, Radzinsky mentions Stalin in full force with a raid on June 26, 1907 on Erivan Square in Tiflis. Conquest writes about the same thing. But he is more careful, mentions that Stalin there allegedly was only a coordinator. In the same way, Martov also accused Stalin of exx (the Mensheviks were against the ex). Gordienko writes that 15 thousand out of 300 thousand abducted were appropriated by Stalin and Shaumyan. This last one is just doubtful.
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        About the trash ... Lies.

                        Oh really? Was Churchill wrong, as usual?
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        And by the way. "Thanks" to people like you, the civil war in Russia will never end.

                        Do you propose an international tribunal for communism? To put an end, like Nazism?
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        You write that you doubt, and at the same time, peremptorily accuse of lying.

                        I doubt the reliability of the Soviet figures. The Bolsheviks have always lied. This can be seen at least by the number of losses in WW2. Official figures are growing all the time. Think about these words, how can OFFICIAL numbers grow? They kind of fix the fact. What is this "floating commit"? Who then will trust such statistics?
                      2. 0
                        24 August 2015 11: 28
                        Quote: SEC
                        For example, Radzinsky mentions Stalin in vain with a raid on June 26, 1907 on Erivan Square in Tiflis.

                        Aha ... A private mention of Radzinsky, this is of course a "dogmatic conclusion." To recall does not mean to have proof. The Gendarme Corps of Russia, to Stalin, as a "criminal", had no complaints. Or did they work badly? .Worked well.
                        Quote: SEC
                        Conquest writes about the same thing. But he is more careful, mentions that Stalin there allegedly was only a coordinator.

                        Again the same garbage. One words. For which they do not answer. As below:
                        Quote: SEC
                        In the same way, Martov also accused Stalin of exx (the Mensheviks were against the ex). Gordienko writes that 15 thousand out of 300 thousand abducted were appropriated by Stalin and Shaumyan.
                        Another unproven blah blah blah ....
                        Quote: SEC
                        Oh really? Was Churchill wrong, as usual?

                        What the hell is Churchill, “a model of truthfulness?” Just because you like it?
                        Quote: SEC
                        Do you propose an international tribunal for communism? To put an end, like Nazism?

                        You don’t need to translate the arrows. This is what you are proposing. But why? Excuse me, but you are a Russophobe, and Russia is a phob. Since you DO NOT understand that the USSR is also RUSSIA. It’s just one of the social forms. And the tribunal should be like you. For calls to continue the Civil War. In all the social forms of the State of Russia, there were flaws and crimes (depending on how you look and what to believe), and you dig worms in only one case.
                        Quote: SEC
                        . The Bolsheviks always lied.

                        I repeat, a lie. All representatives of any State differ in lies (in various forms).
                        Quote: SEC
                        This can be seen at least by the number of losses in WW2. Official figures are growing all the time. Think about these words, how can OFFICIAL numbers grow? They kind of fix the fact. What is this "floating commit"? Who then will trust such statistics?

                        And nothing that according to the results of losses in the Second World War, in fact, there are no official figures? Nothing that there were 7 commissions? And each tried to push their numbers as "official"?
                      3. 0
                        24 August 2015 12: 37
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        Just because you like it?

                        not at all. Rather indifferent.
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        This is what you offer.

                        Did I write about this somewhere? No. Therefore, it is not necessary to transfer from a sick head to a healthy one.
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        Since you do not understand that the USSR, this is also-RUSSIA

                        USSR, this is not Russia. Read the Constitution of Russia. It is fundamentally different from the Constitution of the USSR. Enforcement, this is not the preservation of the political system. In other words, there is no longer socialism over.
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        And the tribunal must be carried out on people like you. For calls to continue the Civil War.

                        Are you out of your mind? Have I called for something somewhere? And can you show where and what I called for? Complete lies and slander on your part. Feels like "school". The "methods" of the Stalinists are always the same.
                        And you just need to be attracted. At least for libel and slander.
                        His beloved Stalin was hurt. Now he is ready, even in the dust of the camp, at least like a mad dog. Passed it already.
                      4. 0
                        24 August 2015 13: 06
                        Quote: Be proud.
                        And the tribunal must be carried out by people like you

                        Why do you, Gordey, hate people so much? What did they do wrong to you? Why so much hatred? Did Stalin teach you this? Explained that the enemies around? What if you cheated? Or was it wrong? Have you ever thought about this? Try to think.
                        I, for example, even the Stalinists, people with whom I have the strongest differences in my life position, I consider NOT ENEMIESbut people erring. Which should explain the essence of their errors.
                        I don’t know, Gordey, you and me with your pseudo-religious extremism are unpleasant to me. I will not communicate with you. I can’t explain anything to you. You are not receptive, but very aggressive. Therefore, it makes no sense.
                      5. 0
                        25 August 2015 12: 17
                        Sometimes, listening to * an expert *, the thought comes up that it is best * to * story * * to learn * from cartoons, beautifully and briefly. They’ll also sing a song.
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                2. +1
                  23 August 2015 18: 18
                  Quote: SEC
                  Stalin generally began as a typical raider.

                  Do not write garbage.
                  Quote: SEC
                  What is the question? Everything is simple. In fact, it was planned to build 9000 enterprises. And built, God forbid, 900.

                  Industrialization comes from the Latin "diligence, activity". So it's not only about the construction of enterprises. As an example: To create their own engineering base, a domestic system of higher technical education was urgently created. In 1930, universal primary education was introduced in the USSR, and seven-year compulsory education in cities.
                  1. -2
                    23 August 2015 18: 59
                    Quote: Be proud.
                    Do not write garbage

                    If this is "bullshit", then I am not writing it. For example, Radzinsky mentions Stalin with a raid on June 26, 1907 on Erivan Square in Tiflis. Conquest writes about the same. But he is more careful, mentions that Stalin was supposedly there only as a coordinator. In the same way, Martov also accused Stalin of the exes (the Mensheviks were against exes). Gordienko writes that Stalin and Shaumyan appropriated 15 thousand of the 300 thousand abducted. This, the latter, is just doubtful.
                    Quote: Be proud.
                    In order to create its own engineering base, a domestic system of higher technical education was urgently created. In 1930, universal primary education was introduced in the USSR, and seven-year compulsory education in cities.

                    This is nonsense, not an "engineering base". Who taught these "engineers"? There was no one. There was also no one to teach mathematicians, physicists and the military. Because it was right to invite specialists to teach in the USSR. For a lot of money, it would pay off. But just this was not done. Therefore, the "academician" and the "professor" argued. One had 3 parish school classrooms and 10 corridors behind him. Another has 4 classrooms and 9 corridors.
                    And the war began, so the checkpoint for the tank (KV-1s) was made by the whole world for six months! And the Red Army actually split into brigades. Because the "co-generals" after graduating from the Academy of the General Staff could no longer command anything. They didn't know how. They were not stupid, but there was no one to teach them. We studied ourselves. Already during the war.
                    These are the consequences of the "iron curtain" policy. The country was in a completely isolated and backward state.
                    1. 0
                      24 August 2015 11: 52
                      Quote: SEC
                      This is nonsense, not an "engineering base". Who taught these "engineers"? There was no one. There was also no one to teach mathematicians, physicists and the military. Because it was right to invite specialists to teach in the USSR. For a lot of money, it would pay off. But this was not done. Therefore, the "academician" and the "professor" argued. One had 3 parish school classrooms and 10 corridors behind him. Another has 4 classrooms and 9 corridors. And the war began, so the checkpoint for the tank (KV-1s) was made by the whole world for six months! And the Red Army actually split into brigades. Because the "co-generals" after graduating from the Academy of the General Staff could no longer command anything. They didn't know how. They were not stupid, but there was no one to teach them. We studied ourselves. Already in the course of the war. These are the consequences of the "iron curtain" policy. The country was in a completely isolated and backward state.

                      Yes, Edrit-Madrid! Everything is lost. There was nothing. There was nobody to teach. There was nobody to teach. Abzatz. Vacuum ... Yes, you would have settled everything. At one, two, three. Yes? It is easy to sit, with words " ". At the same time, you do not take into account the political situation in the country and outside, social inside and outside (as before the war and during). You have one" universal "evil-Bolsheviks. The rest were" out of business. " .., fluffy paws. And about the "iron curtain". This is later. This is to the Duke of Marlborough, he is also the "truth." For you, at least. Everything. Let's end on this. Not interesting. And not productive.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
              2. +1
                23 August 2015 12: 39
                Well, if we "regulate" the world's population, then why only Russians? It is necessary to go through everything, "readjust", it will even benefit some countries ...
                1. +1
                  23 August 2015 12: 49
                  Quote: Resident007
                  Well, if we "regulate" the world's population, then why only Russians? It is necessary to go through everything, "readjust", it will even benefit some countries ...


                  the rest are long obedient, and the Russians are still fluttering, the Russian spirit, the will to win, when they sort it out with the Russians, there will be no problems with the rest, however it has already begun, there’s already no one to ask the United States for the redivision of the world, because Russia is weak, because that not the people in the leadership, but the rest in the world can only assimilate to the amers ...
                  1. -1
                    23 August 2015 13: 09
                    Quote: War and Peace
                    the rest are long obedient, and the Russians are still fluttering

                    Give it up. The struggle for a place in the sun between different nations never died down. At various times, the "Russian spirit, the will to win" was demonstrated by the Swedes, Spaniards, Portuguese, French, and Germans. You can't remember all of them.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
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        2. 0
          28 August 2015 20: 53
          Only during 1MB. During WWII in 2, the USSR declared war on Bulgaria and at once occupied its territory.

          ---------------
          Of course it was necessary to "occupy" Bulgaria gradually
          ---------------
          How was it really?
          "Bulgaria officially entered the Second World War on the side of the Axis on December 13, 1941, declaring war on the United States and Great Britain, however, it was the only ally of Germany who did not fight against the USSR.
          In September 1944, the theater of operations moved to Bulgaria, a coup d'etat took place in the country. A number of leaders of the pro-German regime, including Prince Kirill, Prime Minister Bogdan Filov, were arrested and shot, and the government of the Patriotic Front, led by Kimon Georgiev, came to power. The government of Georgiev declared war on Germany, and the Bulgarian army took part in the battles with German troops. After the war, the People's Republic of Bulgaria was proclaimed.
          "

          Offhand from WIKI lol
      3. 0
        23 August 2015 20: 07
        Quote: War and Peace
        Catholicism and Protestantism in the foreseeable past never clashed with each other
        Would you say that phrase in Northern Ireland ...
        1. 0
          23 August 2015 20: 39
          Quote: Stanislav
          Quote: War and Peace
          Catholicism and Protestantism in the foreseeable past never clashed with each other
          Would you say that phrase in Northern Ireland ...


          they don’t conflict on religious grounds, study history, the Angles destroyed the Irish, like the Negroes and it all started from the 17th century, but most likely from the 19th century, and as for the confrontation between faiths, they also oppose, as they support each other, no support to the Irish people neither from Spain, nor from France, nor even from the Vatican, all this difference of denominations is a bluff, the church is always on one side, on the strong side ...
  2. +4
    22 August 2015 06: 33
    You shouldn't have hurt the Jews. This is the topic - "The Israeli Air Force and artillery struck at the positions of the Syrian government troops" without comment, because such a wave of anti-Semitism has overcome, that mother does not cry. They didn’t remember the help of Georgia with Hohland ...
  3. +4
    22 August 2015 06: 41
    It was not for nothing that when my friend's mother went to Denmark last year and asked a granny about suffering during the war years, she answered: “It’s harder that you could not get good coffee anywhere!”


    Aha, and these "underground workers" fought in white shirts and weekend suits!
  4. +6
    22 August 2015 07: 08
    More often it is necessary to publish such articles and wherever possible and dunk all sorts of "Akhedzhak" in it, otherwise they demanded an apology. Typhoid blankets should have been distributed to them, not field kitchens. Again, they would have fought a lot if something happened? our guys would plug holes in the defense.
  5. +4
    22 August 2015 07: 22
    The Czechs did not have a single case of sabotage during the war. They wore black shirts to work in protest of the occupation. The Gestapo looked at it and chuckled.
  6. +7
    22 August 2015 07: 27
    Yeah ... the Belgian proletariat, led by the Communists and Socialists, in occupied Belgium, organized a general strike on June 22.06.1941, 9, demanding payment of wartime rates ... and the Germans satisfied the just demands of the workers ... Czechs forged weapons for the German Reich, almost until victory on May XNUMXth .. The Slovak divisions stormed Rostov-on-Don ..
  7. +3
    22 August 2015 07: 48
    So the Germans began to look for someone guilty of their own sadism and bestiality. The Germans are already voicing figures directly speaking of * forced * attacks on the SOVIET UNION. And after all, in Russia we have scoundrels saying the same thing. But did someone bring up * these * such what * breast * so nourished them? How to protect our children from this kind of scum?
  8. +7
    22 August 2015 08: 12
    Worst of all, it was we ourselves who ruled history during the time of socialism, claiming, for propaganda purposes, the enormous scale of the European Resistance, its contribution to the common Victory, omitting the participation of citizens of these countries in hostilities on the side of the Wehrmacht. Well, how do you remind the "brothers" in the socialist camp that they fought on Hitler's side. Now, when we are trying to restore the truth, and remind our former "friends" of their "merits", we meet a real misunderstanding and rejection. After all, everything has long been hardened and described. You, like, are trying to ascribe something to us in order to get away from Katyn and the events of 1968. After all, they, unlike us, have not forgotten anything or forgiven us.
  9. -3
    22 August 2015 08: 23
    Another hysterical screeching of the Ukrainian Jewess Berdnik. I could, at least for the sake of decency, for the very first paragraphs, read the history of the Unternehmen Weserübung, and how those who "gave themselves unquestioningly to disarm" inflicted losses in Germany: 3672 people were killed and missing, 127 aircraft were shot down, sunk heavy cruiser "Blucher", light cruisers "Karlsruhe" and "Königsberg", 10 destroyers, artillery training ship "Brummer", 8 submarines, destroyer, 11 transports and more than 10 small ships. The battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, the pocket battleship Lutzov, the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper, the light cruiser Emden, and the artillery training ship Bremse were damaged.
    1. +5
      22 August 2015 10: 24
      Quote: brom
      those who "allowed themselves to be unquestioningly disarmed" inflicted losses on Germany in numbers: 3672 people were killed and missing, 127 aircraft were shot down, the heavy cruiser "Blucher", the light cruisers "Karlsruhe" and "Königsberg", 10 destroyers, an artillery training ship "Brummer", 8 submarines, destroyer, 11 transports and more than 10 small ships

      In Denmark, during the Danish-Norwegian operation, 2 (two) German soldier. And in Norway almost the Norwegians themselves fought, but the British, French and Poles. The British died more than three times more than the Norwegians themselves (4400 English versus 1360 Norwegians, but the captured Norwegians-60 000). They, namely the British, drowned and shot down what was stated above (except for Blucher). So the author, in general, is right.
  10. +2
    22 August 2015 08: 29
    It is time, probably, for the states of smelly geyrops to begin to constantly remind each year of their friendly and warm relations with the shiklgruber. So as not to bury. And enter the holidays, state, reminiscent of how our ancestors went to many and brains (who were) set. And then the holidays started to seem to be introduced and stopped. I'm about the Poles. But there are Swedes and Danes and Austrians and the rest of the flayer .....
  11. +8
    22 August 2015 09: 38
    It should also be added that in 1938 Hitler was recognized in the United States as the person of the year. - And what do you think? - "For the spread of democracy in the world."
    And a little later in 1939 he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize!
  12. +7
    22 August 2015 09: 59
    Almost all of Europe fought against the Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic War in one way or another. Moreover, the "enlightened Europeans" did not hesitate to serve even in the bad memory of the SS troops, moreover, there were so many volunteers that the Germans allowed themselves to make a selection among them. The legions "Netherlands", "Flanders" (Belgian), "Denmark" and "Norway" were created from volunteers. In 1943, these legions were withdrawn from the Eastern Front and volunteer SS Panzergrenadier Divisions were created on their basis: 11th Norland, 23rd Netherlands, 27th Langemark, 28th Wallonia, 33 -I "Charlemagne" (French) and 34th "Landsturm Netherlands". As of January 31, 1944, 37 West European volunteers served in the SS volunteer divisions, incl. Dutch - 367 18, Flemings - 473, Danes - 5033, Norwegians - 5006, French - 3878, Walloons - 2480, Swiss - 1812, Swedes - 584. And that's not counting the numerous European volunteer units in the Wehrmacht, for example, the same Spaniards from the composition of the "blue" division, as well as Germany's allies - Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, Slovaks, Bulgarians and all kinds of Balkans. Or the so-called Waffen-Grenadier divisions of the SS troops, in which representatives of "non-Aryan" peoples such as Albanians, Croats, Bosnians, etc. served. A whole pan-European (and not only European) "international" has come to us with the war in order to once again be shocked.
    But what national composition of prisoners of war is given in the official document of the NKVD of that time - this is the second order for the release of prisoners of war, the first was dated 11.09.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX - that order liberated the Romanians. Below I quote the order - note, the allies - "Americans, British", as well as neutrals - "Swedes", "Swiss":
    Statement
    Ow. top secret
    Ex.№1
    Directive of the NKVD of the USSR
    September 13, 1945 №157 Moscow
    To the People's Commissars of Internal Affairs of the Union and Autonomous Republics, to the Heads of the NKVD of the Territories
    About the procedure for sending prisoners of war who are released in accordance with the instructions of the NKVD of the USSR.
    In pursuance of the order of the NKVD of the USSR No. 00955 of August 13, 1945 and in accordance with your data presented by directive No. 2222 of August 12, 1945, their camps and special hospitals of the republic (territory, region) shall be released prisoners of war of ordinary and non-commissioned officers of the following categories:
    a) all prisoners of war, regardless of physical condition, of the following nationalities: Poles, French, Czechoslovakians, Yugoslavs, Italians, Swedes Norse, Swiss, Luxembourgers Americans, British, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, Bulgarians and Greeks;
    b) sick prisoners of war regardless of nationality, except for acutely ill patients, except for Spaniards and Turks, as well as except for participants in atrocities and persons who served in the SS, SD, SA and Gestapo troops;
    c) prisoners of war Germans, Austrians, Hungarians and Romanians - only disabled and weakened. Persons classified by their physical condition to the first shall not be exempted. the second and third categories, as well as participants in atrocities and persons who served in the SS, SD, SA and Gestapo troops, regardless of physical condition ....
    Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR Colonel-General signature Chernyshov "
    I have the honor.
    1. +2
      22 August 2015 13: 32
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTPA9M2HDTE
  13. +1
    22 August 2015 10: 10
    Adolf Gitler

    The Fuhrer of the Third Reich Adolf Hitler was on the list of nominees for the 1939 Prize - for the division of Czechoslovakia after the Munich agreement. This decision was warmly approved by European politicians. But already in May 1939, Hitler was deleted from the list of nominees. The 1939 Prize was never awarded to anyone.
  14. +6
    22 August 2015 10: 15
    “The moral standards worked out by the Eastern Slavs from pre-Christian times do not allow a Russian person to rape someone else’s conscience and encroach on property that does not belong to him by right. More often from the indestructible feeling of compassion rooted in him, he is ready to give up his last shirt than to take it off, therefore, no matter how victorious the Russian weapons are - purely in a mercantile plan Russia ALWAYS REMAINS THE LOSS. Those defeated by it, or taken under protection in the end always win, while preserving their way of life and spiritual institutions intact ... Such is the reality whose root cause lies in the peculiarities of Russian morality ... [and we will be complete idiots if we do not use it] “
    Roderick Murchinson, 1863
    1. 0
      28 August 2015 20: 55
      Thank you, I didn’t. Tell me, please, where is the quote from?
      Very interesting.
  15. +3
    22 August 2015 10: 17
    Quote: XYZ
    Worst of all, it was we ourselves who ruled history during the time of socialism, claiming, for propaganda purposes, the enormous scale of the European Resistance, its contribution to the common Victory, omitting the participation of citizens of these countries in hostilities on the side of the Wehrmacht. Well, how do you remind the "brothers" in the socialist camp that they fought on Hitler's side. Now, when we are trying to restore the truth, and remind our former "friends" of their "merits", we meet a real misunderstanding and rejection. After all, everything has long been hardened and described. You, like, are trying to ascribe something to us in order to get away from Katyn and the events of 1968. After all, they, unlike us, have not forgotten anything or forgiven us.

    These are such diplomatic bribes. There were a lot of them at different levels. I thought they helped only for a short time. It would not be a lie to solve the problem. It's a shame for our dead and forgotten heroes
  16. -13
    22 August 2015 10: 43
    Not everything can be agreed with the author.
    The Norwegian army, unlike the Danish, put up serious resistance to the Germans. Have you heard about Narvik and Ditl? The Germans were ahead of the British and had such a bridgehead as Norway - the whole war could have gone differently.
    It’s strange to hear about the actions of the French fleet. After all, Toulon was, and the Gauls fought with the British with extreme reluctance. 150 French fought on the eastern front? Is this nothing like the mobilization potential of France - 000 million? 10 thousand Belgians, Dutch ....
    Let us recall how many Soviet citizens fought on the side of the Fuhrer. About a million. There were 80 police battalions, the Vlasov army, the Ukrainian UPA all consisted of Soviet citizens. Recall the Lokot Republic. Khatyn. Let us recall the contribution of Soviet workers to the victory of the Wehrmacht, how many millions tons of grain and potatoes were collected from the fields and sent to Germany. Millions of livestock. Many of the mines and mines of Ukraine were in working condition and produced products. Who worked there at all these enterprises? Soviet citizens. That is why they were silent in a rag about the cooperation of the captured Western countries with the Nazis.

    The collaborators were always and everywhere. There is a proverb. There is nothing to blame if the face itself is crooked.
    1. +2
      22 August 2015 17: 20
      But nothing that the Nazis introduced standards for the delivery of products by Soviet citizens in the occupied Soviet territories? Wherever you want, take it, but surrender it to the needs of the Wehrmacht, otherwise execution. And this is not voluntary work, as in Europe. How many sabotage and sabotage were at the enterprises. How many partisans were there? Do not compare with European in scale and scope. So do not whistle about a crooked face, although if you are on your own, then everything can be.
  17. -15
    22 August 2015 11: 16
    Quote: war and peace
    the fact that the USSR fought not with Germany, but with the whole of Europe was spoken by the writer Yuri Mukhin, who is now in prison on far-fetched charges.
    What are the warriors the same French who surrendered in 40 days, and the Poles in 2 weeks, like that warriors.
    It is noteworthy that the real
    The question arises - "why did all these" independent "and sovereigns turn out to be so helpless and incapable of defending their" freedom "? The answer lies in the past of this Europe. If you look at the cultural component of Europe, it turns out that all these countries, that the Germans, that the Italians, that the same Poles or Czechs have more in common than differences.Religion? Catholicism and Protestantism in the foreseeable past never clashed with each other and were an instrument for the successful management of peoples, and the defining moments of history Catholicism has always taken on
    So these "elites" in France, Austria, Holland, Norway, Bulgaria are ONE AND T
    These monarchs decided who should own what and how much and how many people are needed for the country, when there are too many people, as in pre-revolutionary Russia, then such people should be ordered through war, which was done. During the First World War and the Civil War in Russia, the following were killed:
    From 1917 to 1922, the population of Russia decreased by 13-16 million people, while most of them died from hunger and epidemics. Given the decline in population growth compared to peacetime, the loss of population of Russia amounted to 25 million people.
    http://www.protown.ru/information/hide/5861.html
    this is according to the most conservative estimates. The Second World War claimed the lives of another 25-30 million people. Mendeleev believed that by the mid-20th century, up to 500 million people should live in Russia, but such a figure did not suit the world elites, therefore, through wars, the population of Russia was reduced, as can be seen at times.
    Therefore, in order to understand all these modern wars and political cataclysms, it is not necessary to consider the history of wars and the history of "peoples", but to consider the history of the elites of the peoples, then an understanding of history will come.

    The French carried on their shoulders the entire First World War.
    What surrendered in 40 days is a military disaster. Poland held on for a month.
    Let’s better remember where the German army was on 1 August 1941? The USSR at that time left territories equal to three Poland and five France ....
    Let me remind you, if you forgot about the 30 year war between Catholics and Protestants, the decline of the people was such that for a short period in Germany they were allowed to have two wives.
    The whole story is a description of the endless wars in Europe, France with the Netherlands and Spain, England and France, Poland and Russia, Austria and Sweden .... Where is the peace and friendship of the common elites?
    You write about the loss of population in Russia after the October Revolution. So Lenin made a revolution, and the English queen is to blame?
    1. +9
      22 August 2015 11: 58
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      The French carried on their shoulders the entire First World War.


      well, it’s not necessary to deceive, without Russia the French never survived, the German offensive was stopped only by the advance of the Russian armies, and the French rolled back with the English, two weeks later, almost to Paris, in addition, select Russian divisions fought 45000 soldiers, non-commissioned - officers and officers, almost all of them were killed in France.

      What surrendered in 40 days is a military disaster. Poland held on for a month.


      if you would reduce the arrogance and arrogance of the gentry to the Poles, you would look and continue to be friends with Germany, you wouldn’t have to get into the Czech Republic and if you had amicably resolved issues with Datsig and the corridor to Prussia, then everything would have worked out, and if you had still accepted the proposal of the USSR, then maybe World War II would not have begun. But Poland turned to birth and that is what makes me think that for Poland everything was decided in advance and Poland was a ram at the slaughter of the elites.
      By the way, the Polish army was not so weak at all and had tanks and aircraft, and there were many soldiers, but only the Poles could not fight.

      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      Let’s better remember where the German army was on August 1, 1941? By that time, the USSR left territories equal to three Poland and five France


      so here you are looking at the story? Let's just say WE -RUSSIANS won, and the Poles, French, Czechs, and everyone else lost in this war and this speaks only of one whose people are STRONGER, OUR STRONGEST ...

      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      Let me remind you, if you forgot about the 30 year war between Catholics and Protestants, the decline of the people was such that for a short period in Germany they were allowed to have two wives.


      but I didn’t know about this, what do they write in textbooks? Well, let's link ...

      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      The whole story is a description of the endless wars in Europe, France with the Netherlands and Spain, England and France, Poland and Russia, Austria and Sweden .... Where is the peace and friendship of the common elites?


      YES YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND that there were wars BETWEEN THE PEOPLES, it means that the elites fought among themselves, the elites were always on the sidelines and the wars were a solution to the current problems associated with population growth. However, the Romanovs, Hohenzoylerns, Habsburgs were punished for their obstinacy and intransigence, and therefore they were removed from power - implicitly, it is very likely that they continue to rule already implicitly ...


      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      You write about the loss of population in Russia after the October Revolution. So Lenin made a revolution, and the English queen is to blame?


      "Lenin staged a revolution"? You don't know the history, Lenin and his small party of Bolsheviks WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ORDER the Germans and Rothschilds without money, besides there was a war and POWER WEAKED, so it was the Queen of England, whose house had long been intertwined with the Rothschild Jews and ordered the music ...
    2. +2
      22 August 2015 15: 39
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      Let’s better remember where the German army was on 1 August 1941? The USSR by that time left the territories equal to three Poland and five France...
      belay
      What a clear NONSENSE... Judgments based on such "arguments look, to put it mildly, unconvincing.
    3. +1
      23 August 2015 02: 23
      Where did Lenin get the money for revolution? Not a word about Germany, she fought on two fronts. And Lenin lived with comrades abroad for what shish? So did his family and mother-in-law.
    4. +1
      25 August 2015 12: 14
      to the morgan. In WWI, France and the French showed a pattern of treachery and ingratitude. The history of the RUSSIAN * corps * in France is indicative. As interventionists, too, distinguished themselves by sadism and bestiality.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  18. +5
    22 August 2015 11: 49
    This article should be in a single history textbook!
    And the conclusion is this: there is no need to "liberate" anyone at the cost of the death of our soldiers! Let them live as they deserve!
    Our country is in a hostile environment!
    We must prepare for the next war! And we have no "brothers"!
    1. MrK
      +5
      22 August 2015 13: 08
      Thank you Vozhik. Let me speak. With sadness I read some of the comments and see how deeply in the minds of some colleagues, such as "Cap.Morgan", and in some things "war and peace" liberal dogmas have penetrated.
      One refers to Mendeleev. Although demographers have long proved that the population of any country not growing according to linear law.
      The other is that if it were not for the German (English) money, then there would be no revolution in Russia. Is Lenin to blame? So Lenin in December 1916, speaking in Zurich in front of the young socialists of Switzerland, said that his generation would no longer see the revolution in Russia. And in February 1917 people threw off Nikolashka.

      By paying with money, you can only make a color revolution. Like in Ukraine.

      Let's talk about the revolution in Russia. It is absolutely incomprehensible: if everything in Russia was so beautiful, if the vast majority lived comfortably, what kind of paranoia swept the peoples of the empire, forcing them to destroy such a prosperous, well-fed and prosperous country with their own hands? I emphasize that the options for the "bunch" of the Bolsheviks, as well as the "bunch" of the Yid masons are not suitable as an explanation. IT IS RECOGNIZED THEN ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION PERSONS - FULL! WELCOME! ALL SATISFIED! - WERE FULLY CRAZY IF WITHOUT CRAZYLY MOVED FOR A HUGE OF WHO SHOULD IT NOT HAPPEN ?!
      And this means that there was no satiety and prosperity in Russia.

      I will give a simple example. What did people do who, by their social position and occupation, did not belong to the intelligentsia — merchants and manufacturers, officials and nobles, engineers and others? Yes, they financed the revolution!

      In the end, it is not so important whether these plans could be realized to overthrow tsarism or not. Another thing is much more important - absolutely all walks of life, from the landless peasant to the shining countesses, were in a remarkable state: if not in practice, then in thoughts and words they completely resigned themselves to the fact that one day the emperor would fly off the throne like a drunk from a stepladder.
      Everyone was eager for change - and some donated money for these changes, while others went on.

      And what else did they do? Yes, the same, only cleaner!
      Who is it who directs the actions of the fighting squad of the Kiev Socialist Revolutionaries? And Maria Platonovna Rainbot, the spouse of the current state adviser, a member of the council under the Minister of Finance.

      Who is it that finances the publication of the Bolshevik Iskra, plus the 2 Congress of the RSDLP? And Kalmykova, wife of the senator.
      Who is it among us among the anarchists that shines, waving his browning and throwing bombs? Yes, Prince Khilkov ...
      And who among the leaders of the Social Revolutionaries? Yes, Alexey Ustinov, Stolypin’s nephew.

      I will give the floor to Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich: "A person’s personal qualities were not considered anything if he did not verbally or in print express his hostility to the existing system. A scientist or writer, artist or musician, artist or engineer was judged not by their giftedness, but by the degree of radical conviction". Remember now the time of perestroika in the USSR.

      But how easy it is to use liberal propaganda cliches. Lenin made a revolution. The population of Russia would be half a billion. It is sad and shameful for these Yegeshnikov, weaned to think.
      Once again I recommend a book where everything is explained on figures and facts. [A. Kurlyandchik - “CURSED SOVIET AUTHORITY” ... on Proza.ru] Thank you.
      1. 0
        22 August 2015 15: 19
        It is absolutely incomprehensible: if everything in Russia was so beautiful, if the vast majority lived comfortably, what kind of paranoia swept the peoples of the empire, forcing them to destroy such a prosperous, well-fed and prosperous country with their own hands?


        In St. Petersburg in the 1910s. the average salary in industry was 450 rubles a year. A good salary for a worker was considered to be 700 rubles a year. In the city electric transport system of St. Petersburg, equipment repairmen received 840 rubles a year, switch repairmen - 720 rubles, ordinary locksmiths - 480 rubles, conductors and carriages - 40 and 45 rubles a month, and " an apartment in kind "- this meant living in a service family hostel. "Line workers" who received annual salaries of up to 840 rubles and served for at least 1 year received bonuses twice a year for 2% of their salary, or 70% in total. In 140, salaries were increased: for tram car repairmen - up to 1914 rubles a year, for night inspection masters - up to 1100 rubles, for foremen's assistants - up to 1200 rubles, for engine repairmen - up to 900 rubles. Teachers of sciences and languages ​​with higher education received a salary in the first five years of service of 900 rubles, the amount of a five-year increase was 900 rubles, so that a teacher with 400 years of experience received 20 rubles; teachers of preparatory classes and teachers of sciences and languages ​​without higher education started with a salary of 2500 rubles, the amount of a five-year increase was 750 rubles, so that a teacher with 200 years of experience received 20 rubles. Accordingly, the pension was also different: for teachers with higher education, the full pension salary was 1550 rubles, for teachers without higher education - 1800 rubles. Additional lessons for the first were paid for 1100 rubles, for the second for 75 rubles. Finally, classroom mentoring, which was paid up to 60 within the limits of only 1912 rubles, began to be paid in the amount of 160 rubles / The teacher lived in a state-owned apartment or in a house provided by a rural society.In order to adequately assess this figure, it should be noted that in the same 600, the average salary of industrial workers in the empire for the year in different industries varied from 1912 to 156 rubles. In the Moscow province in 1913, the average annual earnings of workers amounted to 252 rubles. 79 kopecks Then, in 1912, in Moscow, buckwheat was sold for 1 ruble. 40 kopecks for pood, millet was worth 1 rub. 60 kopecks., Rye flour - 1 rub. 44 kopecks., Wheat flour - 2 rubles. 60 kopecks., Beef - 5 rubles. 85 kopecks., Pork - 7 rubles. 31 kopecks., Cow butter - 17 rubles. 83 cop., Sunflower oil - 5 rubles. 05 kopecks., Eggs - 29 rubles. 50 kopecks for 1000 pcs. [. Thus, an honored teacher with a salary that was 14 times the average worker’s salary could buy (or - or): buckwheat - 3456 kg, millet - 3020 kg, rye flour - 3356 kg, wheat flour - 1858 kg, beef - 826 kg, pork - 661 kg, cow's butter - 271 kg, sunflower oil - 957 kg, eggs - 10000 pcs. Pood = 16,38 kg The standard of living includes rest: the number of non-working (Sunday and holidays) days in a year in Russia was 100–110 among workers, 140 among peasants (in Western countries - 65, in England - only 55). Social insurance for workers in Russia was introduced by 1912 (before the West), there were other labor protection laws that the US president Taft publicly declared: "Your Emperor has created such perfect working legislation that no democratic state can boast of."

        And how do you assess, in the sense of social stability, the current state of Russia ???
        1. BMW
          +1
          22 August 2015 16: 48
          Quote: mrark
          It is absolutely incomprehensible: if everything in Russia was so beautiful, if the vast majority lived comfortably, what kind of paranoia swept the peoples of the empire, forcing them to destroy such a prosperous, well-fed and prosperous country with their own hands?


          Quote: Shishiga
          of which US President Taft publicly stated: "Your Emperor has created such a perfect working law that no democratic state can boast of."


          At VO, an article recently was that a bunch of drunks made a revolution (from the article I realized that Lenin got them drunk on Trotsky’s German and American money and sent them to make a revolution). lol

          Let's conduct an experiment, ask the GDP 10 lard greens, put smart people in a forty-foot truck and send to the USA to make a revolution. What do you think will end the experiment? recourse

          Seriously, this is all nonsense, until the situation has matured from the inside, it is impossible to rock the situation with any money (provided the ruling class is adequate). I think you will make conclusions yourself. tongue

          Lenin is a great clever and cunning. If we follow the logic of the revolution with foreign money, then Lenin threw everyone. He took the money, made a revolution, and then showed everyone the muzzle. The truth had to yield to the Germans, plus small territorial concessions. Well, people, people do not count.
          1. MrK
            0
            23 August 2015 11: 04
            Thanks BMW. I will supplement it.
            Time after time they try to impress upon us how wonderful life was under the tsar-priest, they tell tales about the abundance of workers, about the abundance in the village, about the good tsarist officials and noble officers. But not all books were still burned, there is still room to read how they actually lived.
            Here is one of these books - this is a problem book from the "director of a real school" Mr. Vishnevsky, published in 1911. "An arithmetic problem book for primary schools and preparatory classes in gymnasiums and real schools."
            The book was published in 1911, but it is worth noting that this is the 31 edition (reprints about once every half a year).
            All applied tasks - about crops, goods, salaries. For these tasks, it is easy to imagine how people lived in those days.
            Some tasks are shocking with their terrible routine:
            "1123. The child was born on the 12 of May at 9 in the morning, and died on the 11 of June of the same year at 1 in the afternoon. How long did the child live? ”
            "1124. The boy was born on 17 on January 1873. When he died, if he lived on 3 of the year 4 of the month. "

            Following are the problems on prices and salaries:

            "1421. Men and women worked in the factory; there were four times as many men as women; the man received 12 rubles. per month, and a woman at 8 rub. In a year, all workers were paid 26 880 rubles. How many men are in the factory and how many women?
            Answer: 765; 89. "

            But someone sincerely believes that all the workers received 40 gold rubles.

            «1137. The teacher receives 16 rub. 66 cop. salary per month. How much salary will she receive in 7 months? ”
            «427. The day laborer receives 25 kopecks on the day. How much does she get in 4 of the day? ”

            And finally, about the love of religion:
            "1060. The reading lesson lasted 1 hour 10 minutes, a lesson in calligraphy 55 minutes and a lesson in God's Law 1 hour 30 minutes. How long did the 3 lesson last? ”
        2. 0
          22 August 2015 18: 03
          Quote: Shishiga
          And how do you assess, in the sense of social stability, the current state of Russia ???


          yes no, dear, you wrote about the workers, but Russia was 90% peasant, and as a wreck, then hunger and always death was under the tsar. For example, I read somewhere that the guys who came to the army at the call of their villages did not gain their proper weight due to constant hunger in the village and had to fatten them, and then ask for service.
          Therefore, the question of land has always been very acute, on this the Jewish Bolsheviks played and deceived the people ...
        3. MrK
          0
          23 August 2015 10: 51
          Quote: Shishiga
          In St. Petersburg in the 1910s. the average salary in industry was 450 rubles a year. A good salary for a worker was considered to be 700 rubles a year. In the city electric transport system of St. Petersburg, equipment repairmen received 840 rubles a year, switch repairmen - 720 rubles, ordinary locksmiths - 480 rubles, conductors and carriages - 40 and 45 rubles a month, and " an apartment in kind "- this meant living in a service family hostel.

          So I ask - if everything in Russia was so beautiful, if the vast majority lived comfortably, what kind of paranoia swept the peoples of the empire, forcing them to destroy such a prosperous, well-fed and prosperous country with their own hands?

          Do not forget that the Bolsheviks relied on the working red guard.
          And about salaries. In the converter shop in 1913, from 261 people, only three shift senior masters received 10 rubles per 12 hour shift, and the average metallurgist received 1 rubles for this shift. 68 cop. This is despite the fact that metallurgists have always been among the highest paid professions.
          1. 0
            23 August 2015 11: 24
            Quote: mrark
            Do not forget that the Bolsheviks relied on the working red guard.

            The Bolsheviks NEVER relied on workers. The Bolsheviks have always relied on the proletariat. They even perpetrated the "dictatorship of the proletariat". The full name of this outrage is lumpen-proletariat. What is the meaning of the word lumpen? It was on these lumpens from the working class that the Bolsheviks relied. And they could not rely on skilled workers. The Bolsheviks were unnecessary for them.
            Quote: mrark
            what kind of paranoia swept the peoples of the empire forcing them to destroy such a prosperous, well-fed and prosperous country with their own hands?

            There was nothing particularly well-fed and prosperous in Russia. But the Bolsheviks knew "the peoples of the empire." Therefore, they promised them their centuries-old dream - to take away and divide everything. In Bulgakov's "Heart of a Dog" this is described quite easily. Moreover, it was assumed that this would be taken from someone and shared with him. Therefore, they supported.
            But they were again deceived. And they took it from them. I’ll clean it all up. Turning the whole country into lumpen. After all, in fact, the scoop was a lumpen, he had nothing of his own. The scoop of dreams was a Lada car. There was nothing left for him to inherit, except for a worn carpet and a vase made of Czech glass. Who today in the post-Soviet space dreams of a Zhiguli car? Who is shaking over glass vases and carpets?
            1. 0
              23 August 2015 19: 20
              The Bolsheviks NEVER relied on workers. The Bolsheviks have always relied on the proletariat. They even perpetrated the "dictatorship of the proletariat"

              hi

              "The proletariat (proles) is Roman citizens who, according to the Servius Tullius system (centuriate system), were lower than the citizens of the V class in terms of property qualification, that is, with property of less than 10000 aces (according to other sources, less than 1500 aces). their name in society was explained by the fact that the only meaning of proletarians for the state was expressed in the production of offspring - future citizens of Rome.As Toynbee wrote, in ancient Rome, when conducting a population census, those people who did not have property wrote in the column about property - “children "(Proles). Hence their name -" proletarians. "They were the poorest part of the people (paupers). Their other designation was capite censi, that is, in the lists of citizens they appeared with the designation only of their private-law independence (caput). Proletarians were free from military service and taxes. "
              From myself -Since there was no money to buy a sword and shield.

              1. 0
                23 August 2015 21: 18
                Quote: Shishiga
                The proletariat (proles) are Roman citizens

                You still remember the prehistoric times. laughing
                Definitions should be looked at in the "Bolshevik Bible", Marx's work "Capital".
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            23 August 2015 18: 37
            I’ll answer, although not a Jew, by a question to a question (historical fact) why during the civil war in Siberia and the Far East, the indigenous people (those who lived more than 50 years) supported mostly whites, and immigrants for the Stolypin reform - red.
            Although this is, after all, the paradox is for the most part either Old Believers or convicts i.e. subjected to repression by the authorities, and the second received land and benefits and other preferences from the same sworn tsarism.
            Well, what will your opinion be.
        4. 0
          23 August 2015 18: 07
          What, then, with such a good life in a calm 1913 was 60% of the peasants poor? And hunger was actually permanent — hidden hunger was replaced by open hunger, and by the beginning of the 20th century more and more?
        5. 0
          23 August 2015 18: 28
          As I understand it, someone in a slight aah from the misery of the working class in Tsarist times minus blurted out. wassat
          Yes, so that he is in poverty now. am
          1. 0
            24 August 2015 08: 02
            I put you a minus.
            Do you at least distinguish between the realities of "then" and "now"?
            Sources of your average work income can be seen?

            The average wage of a worker in the European part of the Republic of Ingushetia was 22 rubles a month.
            (from: Collection of reports of factory inspectors for 1913, St. Petersburg, 1914. C. LI, 26)

            The total number of workers in 1913 was not more than 3% of the population of the Empire.
            The working day in 1913 was one and a half times longer, i.e. divide the salary by 1,5 for a correct comparison.
            years
            Time
            hours
            1897
            11,5

            1900
            11,2

            1904
            10,6

            1905
            10,2

            1913
            10,0

            1914
            9,7

            1915
            9,7

            1916
            9,9

            1917
            8,9

            1918
            8,5

            1919
            8,3

            1920
            8,6

            1921
            8,5

            1922
            7,9

            1923
            7,8

            1924
            7,8

            1925
            7,6

            1926
            7,5

            1927
            7,5

            1928
            7,4

            1934
            6,98
            http://www.opoccuu.com/rab1913.htm
            You do not take into account fines and withholding salaries.
            It was not uncommon when one-tenth of the salary was issued with cards, which could only be bought at factory stores at overpriced products, far from the first freshness.
            Absolutely do not take into account the increase in income through public consumption funds, namely:
            How much did education cost?
            How much did the treatment cost?
            Were there kindergartens and how much?
            What about state pensions?
            How were holidays paid?
            What was the situation with spa treatment?
            How was sick leave paid?
            How much were the transportation costs?
  19. +4
    22 August 2015 12: 35
    Quote: Cap.Morgan

    Let’s better remember where the German army was on 1 August 1941? The USSR at that time left territories equal to three Poland and five France ....


    Iron logic. But let's remember again: in the 1939-1940 years, the German army was virtually untrained, studied as the war progressed, and in 1941 the USSR was attacked by the most powerful and trained army in the world, which almost all of Europe worked for. If they attacked France in this state (1941 of the year), it would have lasted not 40 days, but 2 weeks.
  20. +1
    22 August 2015 12: 38
    A very strange thirty year war between Catholics and Protestants. Catholic France fights against Catholic Austria and Spain and supports Protestant Sweden. Protestant Denmark and Norway are fighting against Protestant Sweden. The British, they are Protestants, are fighting for ctolic France. It was not a war of Protestants and Catholics; it was a war for hegemony in Europe against the Habsburgs
    1. 0
      22 August 2015 13: 01
      Not only Europe financed and armed Hitler (by the way, in Europe they say that mostly Jewish capital had a hand in this), but the United States, as it is now, is trying to impress upon us all the most democratic country in the world.
  21. +6
    22 August 2015 12: 57
    The theme here is about the help of states (all) stinky geyropi 3 Reich before and during the Second World War. What can I argue about? Where was the Red Army by August 1, 1941. And where was the millionth Kwantung army after a month of fighting in August 1945? This is also the Red Army. So do not lala.
  22. +2
    22 August 2015 13: 35
    You will be useful! Look to the end. hi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTPA9M2HDTE
  23. +3
    22 August 2015 13: 58
    Europe, Europe ... And what about Europe? We warmed a snake on our chest!

    The question is whether we can grab her by the throat before ...
  24. +2
    22 August 2015 15: 27
    1. about the supply of ore and wood by the Swedes (for mine supports) it has been known since the time of the WWII, but neither then nor during WWII was it possible to interrupt the supply .....
    2. The Republic of Turkey supplied all of WWII to Reich when the supplies stopped (and then the Portuguese stopped supplying tungsten) there was a terrible deficit of ligating additives. Instead of tungsten, all accumulated uranium had to be used up (the nuclear project was covered), and the resource of jet engines was indecently low. ...
    3. According to other sources, the number of Poles drafted into the ranks of the Wehrmacht reached a quarter of a million (in the same time the inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania), and only in the Soviet camps about 10 thousand Jews from the Wehrmacht and other armed groups died (ALL OF THESE ARE CONSIDERED VICTIMS OF THE LOKHOST ... .)
  25. 0
    22 August 2015 18: 52
    Norwegian illegal radio station “Olga”
  26. +1
    22 August 2015 20: 05
    In this sense, NATO and the European Union are perfectly legitimate and worthy followers of the possessed Fuhrer.

    And if you rewind history for another 100-200 - 300 years, then everything was the same. So Europe is a historical enemy of Russia and I think for many years, maybe hundreds of years, it will not become a friend, showing ostentatious friendliness at moments favorable to itself.
    As was the case throughout the foreseeable history of the Russian State.
  27. 0
    22 August 2015 22: 25
    As I read in one book, more than 2 million non-Germans fought on the side of fascist Germany in World War II. A flair suggests that these bastards were much more cruel to the civilian population and prisoners.
  28. 0
    22 August 2015 22: 44
    800000 non-Germans in the Soviet army alone. By the way, a funny fact after June 22 a bunch of French rushed to the Wehrmacht recruits. But Hitler, impressed by the level of resistance of the French army, forbade the taking of former military personnel to the Wehrmacht. What they were very offended.
    1. -3
      22 August 2015 23: 00
      Quote: timyr
      By the way, a funny fact after June 22 a bunch of French rushed to the recruiting points of the Wehrmacht. But Hitler, impressed by the level of resistance of the French army, forbade the taking of former military personnel to the Wehrmacht. What they were very offended.

      What nonsense. In fact, in addition to the Germans, only the Austrians and the inhabitants of Alsace and Lorraine were called to the Wehrmacht.
      For everyone else, there were SS troops. That's how many French esessmans were, that's how many broke. In fact, not so much, even a full-fledged division was not gained.
  29. +1
    23 August 2015 21: 03
    The article is a huge plus. You forgot to mention that IBM supplied its first computers to the Germans, to register people in the death camps, and through the Swiss branch carried out repairs and maintenance of their goods.
  30. 0
    23 August 2015 21: 06
    Quote: SEC
    What nonsense. In fact, in addition to the Germans, only the Austrians and the inhabitants of Alsace and Lorraine were called to the Wehrmacht.

    In addition to the Wehrmacht and the SS, the Nazis had many other military formations where they took everyone in a row, but under the leadership of the Germans. Also, the Spanish "blue" division immediately comes to mind, as it were not the Germans who fought there, but it was listed in the Wehrmacht as an infantry division.
    1. -1
      23 August 2015 21: 28
      Quote: Black cat
      Also, the Spanish "blue" division immediately comes to mind,

      The Blue Division was in a special position. There were no more such precedents in the Wehrmacht.
      Quote: Black cat
      there were many other military units where they took everyone in a row, but under the leadership of the Germans

      You can also recall Todt's organization. You can also remember hivi. But this was not the Wehrmacht. You can also recall the "divisions AT SS. "This is only in the Red Army (and the SA), if someone once a year saw a soldier, then this is a serviceman of the Red Army (SA). In normal armies this is not so, full of military servants, but not military personnel.
  31. +1
    23 August 2015 21: 56
    Quote: SEC
    In normal armies, this is not so, full of military, but not military servants

    I read your last posts and the question arose: why do you hate the USSR so much? Millions of people are still proud to have been born and raised in this country. By your logic, are they all mistaken? Even now, after 25 years? ALL can not be bad, there must be at least something good in the USSR. Please tell me what do you think was good in the USSR.
    Quote: SEC
    The Bolsheviks NEVER relied on workers. The Bolsheviks always relied on the proletariat.

    Quote: SEC
    After all, in fact, the scoop was a lumpen, he had nothing of his own.

    Quote: SEC
    Because the "co-generals" after graduating from the Academy of the General Staff could no longer command anything.

    Quote: SEC
    And this is the whole "Soviet statistics". Sheer lies. From the constant lies these Bolsheviks are already sick.

    Quote: SEC
    Gee-gee. You once again managed to make me laugh. Only the Bolsheviks could call the T-34 a "good tank".
    1. -1
      23 August 2015 22: 34
      Quote: DesToeR
      why do you hate the USSR so much

      Weird question. Even stranger than a question to a modern German (not a neo-Nazi): "Why don't you like Hitler's Germany?" In my opinion, a German has much more reason to love Hitler's Germany than a Russian has to love the USSR. But if normal Germans do not like Hitler's Germany, then God himself commanded the Russians not to love the USSR.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Millions of people are still proud to have been born and raised in this country. By your logic, are they all mistaken? Even now, after 25 years?

      By my logic, they are mistaken. Just as those Germans were mistaken (the vast majority of the population) who loved Nazi Germany. The Germans helped denazification. And she (desovetization) will help you. I don’t know just where it comes from. Perhaps you should strive for this yourself. Believe me, you can recover from this disease. The Germans basically recovered.
      Quote: DesToeR
      ALL can not be bad, there must be at least something good in the USSR. Please tell me what do you think was good in the USSR.

      Good? And what can be good about the Looking Glass? No, there must have been something. But it's hard to remember what exactly. Against the background of the lawlessness that the Bolsheviks did to the "people". Moreover, what comes to mind is not a "good USSR", it is just youth. And there is nothing to remember from the history of the USSR. And in the tail of this people, and in the mane. It's a shame. And it's a shame.
      Are there any objections to the quotations you quoted?
      It’s not in the USSR, I’m an extremely objective person. I also call the battleships of the tsarist fleet the word they deserve. They had no relation to the USSR. However, some of the ships of the Japanese fleet, too, scold. And I don’t particularly praise German technology. This is so that you still would not accuse me of Russophobia.
  32. +2
    24 August 2015 00: 04
    Quote: SEC
    This is how to look. If in terms of culture, then kindred. If in terms of genetics, then nothing in common. And genetically the most kindred for Russians is the Polish people. Can you call him close?

    In terms of genetics, how close are all Slavic peoples. Modern Bulgarian in terms of genetics, without any doubt are the Slavic people from the South Slavic group. In 2013, the EU’s most obscene program ended with a study of genetics and the origins of European nations. The study unequivocally confirms the Slavic origin of the present Bulgarian people. In addition to the Slavs, the great-Bulgarians (who gave the name of the state) and the Thracians, who, although in smaller numbers, still lived on these lands, influence the formation of the Bulgarian people. The same study categorically rejected the earlier assumptions about the Turkic origin of the great Bulgarians. Neither the great-Bulgarians nor the modern Bulgarians have anything to do with the Türks. The next stage of the study is ahead, the goal of which is to establish the origin of these very great-Bulgarians, who are one of the most poorly studied peoples of the early Middle Ages. There are 2 versions so far. The first is that they are the oldest Iranian-Aryan people. And the second - that they are close relatives of the Proto-Slavs / White Huns /, as they probably spoke a dialect very close to Slavic.
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 12: 27
      Quote: pytar
      Modern Bulgarian in terms of genetics, without any doubt are the Slavic people from the South Slavic group.

      In terms of genetics, there are no "Slavic peoples from the South Slavic group." This is not a genetic but a cultural concept. The resettlement of genetic Slavs in Europe can be seen on the genetic map:
    2. The comment was deleted.
  33. 0
    24 August 2015 11: 43
    Quote: SEC
    Are there any objections to the quotations you quoted?

    Yes there is. All this was bad compared to what / by whom? Saying that something was bad should be indicated in comparison with which sample / system / person.
    The fact that somewhere in the world there was a leader wiser than Stalin, or a tank more effective than the T-34, is possible. You can’t always be better in everything. But at your posts the USSR was always and in everything worse. But how then did we win the war? How was a man launched into space? How did you achieve parity in nuclear deterrence? And why in the West do not scoff at AK / AKM? On the contrary, it is one of the most popular weapons in the United States (and in hundreds of other countries of the world). Your words are denied not by the notorious Soviet statistics, but by reality itself.
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 12: 23
      Quote: DesToeR
      All this was bad compared to what / by whom?

      With what could be done at the same production base. Do you understand? On all the same. Without receiving technology and equipment from the Martians.
      Quote: DesToeR
      But at your posts the USSR was always and in everything worse

      This is not true. More truly, not always so. In the later years of the USSR, some products (for military purposes) were already completely nothing. But under Stalin, in this area (and in others, even more so) there was a complete mess and blockage. From complete incompetence. Stalin was a man of little education and this was limited. The circle of people with whom he surrounded himself was the same.
      Quote: DesToeR
      But how then did we win the war? How was a man launched into space? How did you achieve parity in nuclear deterrence?

      I think you know the answers yourself.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And why in the West do not scoff at AK / AKM?

      What are they doing? Nobody buys them for money for the army.
      Quote: DesToeR
      On the contrary, it is one of the most popular weapons in the United States (and in hundreds of other countries of the world).

      And in the USA? I thought only in those where the USSR gave them away. When he recognized them as a mistake and with weapons, the SA began to withdraw. And then, how many weapons purchased for the purpose of sport or hunting can be given off as army? If someone in the US buys it, it's not the US Department of Defense. Do you understand the difference between army, sports and hunting weapons?
      Quote: DesToeR
      Your words are denied not by the notorious Soviet statistics, but by reality itself.

      On the contrary, my words are confirmed by events. And yours, only with pathos. About "Soviet means excellent." In addition, when talking about army weapons, you refer to examples of purchases for sporting and hunting purposes. Perhaps you are not juggling the facts, but simply do not understand the essence of things. That each task has its own means of achieving it.
      1. 0
        24 August 2015 17: 49
        ... ECA, you worked hard for the benefit of debunking the myth of the USSR. Didn’t your pants rub? ...
        1. 0
          24 August 2015 18: 07
          Not so much the USSR as the Bolsheviks. This is not exactly the same thing. Pants are intact.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  34. 0
    24 August 2015 20: 19
    Quote: SEC
    With what could be done at the same production base. Do you understand?

    These are your speculations and no more. You have no facts. cannot be - history does not know the subjunctive mood.
    Quote: SEC
    But under Stalin, in this area (and in others, even more so) there was a complete mess and blockage.

    Give examples of "blockages" and "mess" COMPARED to the world's leading edge.
    Quote: SEC
    I think you know the answers yourself.

    I know. But you do not have them.
    Quote: SEC
    What are they doing? Nobody buys them for money for the army.

    Respect above all. Well, they still buy it, besides.
    Quote: SEC
    When he recognized them as a mistake and with weapons, the SA began to withdraw.

    Where is the mistake? Do not make me laugh with your stories in the spirit of "30m for PPSh". In an army with a 300m "two" from AKMS, the targets on the "P" sight fall off with a bang and even in motion. It's just a matter of training. Adopting the M-14 or FN FAL under 7,62x51 is not your mistake? No? Maybe tell us about effective automatic fire from these systems at 400m.
    Quote: SEC
    If someone in the US buys it, it's not the US Department of Defense.

    And so does the US Department of Defense. Moreover, it is developing its latest models for the army under the "erroneous" cartridge 7,62x39.
    Quote: SEC
    On the contrary, my words are confirmed by events.

    The fact of the matter is that you do not cite any "events" in confirmation - throwing a phrase under the guise of an indisputable fact and that's it ...
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 21: 51
      Quote: DesToeR
      These are your speculations and no more. You have no facts. cannot be - history does not know the subjunctive mood.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Give examples of "blockages" and "mess" COMPARED to the world's leading edge.

      And where is the story? It's a technique. Iron pieces. It is not necessary to have a lot of intelligence here to understand that a cartridge in 7,62 mm caliber is not suitable for an army one. To do this, you just needed to know a couple of special formulas. But the "strategists in red pants" did not know them. From this and such spans.
      And a 10 (!!!) year old epic about fighting three-inches, spitting first with fire, and then with smoke. How do you like it? First, they themselves created a problem out of the blue, and then for 10 (!!!) years they courageously overcame it. And they did not overcome it. "Great and legendary" was spitting smoke (unmasking), like all the other three-inches. To the delight of German tankmen and artillery gunners.
      These are just the simplest examples. What subjunctive mood can be here? This mess. Illiteracy and a mess. But how much activity was. How much money has been secured. One F-22 was worth it.
      But the anti-tank gun was never made. Describe the consequences?
      But anti-aircraft guns did not. As a result, the Baltic Fleet was destroyed from the air. And the Chernomorsk fleet was defeated and defended in the far corner of the Black Sea. And on land, the consequences were no better.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Where is the mistake?

      Do you want to tell me right now a terrible story that an excellent quality weapon after 27 years of production was discontinued and gradually removed from service? That you tell someone else. Preferably dumb. He will believe you.
      And don't forget to tell about TT with its "18 year history". It was also a very "ingenious weapon". After 18 years of production with the knee in the ass. Together with all the ingenious PPSh / PPS.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Do not make me laugh with your stories in the spirit of "30m for PPSh".

      Learn materiel. Then stop laughing. And you will start crying over the "brilliant creations of the Bolsheviks."
      1. 0
        24 August 2015 21: 52
        Quote: DesToeR
        In an army with a 300m "two" from AKMS, the targets on the "P" sight fall off with a bang and even in motion.

        Again gathered a bunch of athletes. Which have no idea which member they shoot in the war. They think the enemy is the target. I got into it and completed the task. And figs to you. It is necessary not to get into it, but RELIABLE TO ATTECT (destroy). And just getting here is not enough. In addition, he wrote 100 times that the norm is 400, not 300m. No, he again gave something about the target and 300m. Tired of it.
        Quote: DesToeR
        Can you tell us about effective automatic fire from these systems at 400m?

        I won’t tell you. Because 400 m, it is for a single fire. For automatic fire, the calculation is 450 m. I hope you yourself will guess why.
        Quote: DesToeR
        And so does the US Department of Defense. Moreover, it is developing its latest models for the army under the "erroneous" cartridge 7,62x39.

        Why are you telling me tales? How do you feel?
        The United States has never and never will produce such weapons. And no one in the world, except the USSR, released it. No one needed such an ersatz. Even as a result of the USSR, he was not needed. Money down the drain.
        Quote: DesToeR
        The fact of the matter is that you do not cite any "events" in confirmation

        The fact that in 1974. the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm was discontinued, is this not an event in your opinion? Is this a "phrase stuffing"?
        Isn't the fact that the TT was retired after only 18 years of production? Is this a "phrase stuffing"?
        Is it not a fact that not a single army in the world has adopted a 7,62 mm cartridge for an army pistol (and PP)? Is this a "phrase stuffing"?
        It is useless to you to give arguments. You don’t see them, you just don’t understand. Because not in the subject. You need not argue, but be interested. For self-education.
        1. 0
          24 August 2015 22: 14
          Tell me honestly, have you served in the army?
          1. 0
            24 August 2015 22: 23
            Why do you need to know this?
            1. 0
              24 August 2015 22: 40
              Because your reasoning is the reasoning of a person who has never fulfilled a single army shooting standard.
              Because in addition to aplomb, you do not look further and do not understand what the range of a direct shot is and the probability of hitting a target with a single shot and short bursts.
              Because modern army calibers include such as 5,7 * 28.
              Because AKM formed the basis for such machines as sig-sauer, galil, valmet, bofors ..
              About weapons under the cartridge 7,62 * 39 made in the USA, I told you, but you do not want to remember this. This is FN SCAR-H.
              Because the weight of the BC for you is an empty phrase.
              Because you do not know the history of the country and do not understand the realities of that time and when and under what conditions, for example, a cartridge 7,62 * 39 was created.
              And because you have cartridges of 5,45 * 39 and 7,62 * 39, these are fundamentally different cartridges that operate on different principles.
              And so on.
              1. 0
                24 August 2015 23: 12
                Quote: Izotovp
                your reasoning is the reasoning of a person who has never fulfilled a single army rifle standard.

                What does shooting standards have to do with designing the right niche weapon? You also ask me if I can walk at a marching pace. And fill the bed with a welt. Laughed at his "argument".
                Quote: Izotovp
                in addition to aplomb, you do not look further and do not understand what a direct shot range is and the probability of hitting a target with a single shot and short bursts.

                I probably write things too complicated for you. I repeat the letter, the task of army weapons is RELIABLE DAMAGE the enemy. Realized the difference between target damage and RELIABLE DESTRUCTION the adversary.
                I look at all "athletes" on this site. They just can't guess why the army has weapons and why the soldiers shoot. Well, they can't tell a soldier from an athlete.
                To make it easier, I will describe the main distinguishing features - a soldier, he is in a helmet. A sportsman, without her. And the differences between them do not end there.
                Quote: Izotovp
                AKM formed the basis for such machines as sig-sauer, galil, valmet, bofors

                Yeah. And also the basis of the "Friendship" chainsaw. And the mouth organ "Lipshlep". Enough to tell fairy tales. At least I looked for myself what cartridges the same Galil shoots with.
                Quote: Izotovp
                About weapons under the cartridge 7,62 * 39 made in the USA, I told you, but you do not want to remember this. This is FN SCAR-H.

                Is this the main army weapon? Wow. And I thought M16. In addition, the FN SCAR-H is not available under the cartridge of 7,62x39 mm. Adaptation kits for the FN SCAR-H are available for this cartridge.
                Quote: Izotovp
                Because the weight of the BC for you is an empty phrase.

                Was it "towards the rain"?
                Quote: Izotovp
                you do not know the history of the country and do not understand the realities of that time and when and in what conditions, for example, a cartridge 7,62 * 39 was created.

                Gee-gee. You're funny. But what, the realities of that time required the adoption of an ersatz weapon? After the war. The USSR was in the role of Germany, which had nothing to shoot at the enemy? In 1947 were active hostilities on all fronts? Dreamer, damn it?
                What, the realities of that time required mastering the production of a completely new cartridge? This is a lot of money. What, after the war in the USSR, chickens didn’t bite money?
                The wisest in the place of the "strategists in red pants" was to take the SVT-40 rifle and attach a gas outlet to it, like the Sturmgewehr 44. As Kalashnikov did in his AK-47. Those. make SVT-47. And that's all. Close the question for a long time, until 1974. The equipment for the production of SVT remained. It would be cheap and cheerful. And this is exactly what the "realities of the time" demanded. And not to waste a bunch of funds HZ for what.
                Quote: Izotovp
                you have cartridges of 5,45 * 39 and 7,62 * 39 - these are fundamentally different cartridges that operate on different principles

                Have you at least read something on this subject, or something. For a change. And then it’s completely dark. You don’t know elementary things.
                1. 0
                  25 August 2015 00: 19
                  Direct! You don’t even understand what criteria are laid down in the technical specifications for the design of weapons! Including the probability of defeat from various positions and at different ranges. You don’t know anything about weapons in reality !!! The cartridge 7,62 * 39 was adopted in 1943 according to the analysis of fire contacts on the battlefield.
                  M-16 is one of the models in service. See the specifications for the FN SCAR-H rifle. If you can’t do it myself, I’ll give you a reference)))
                  1. 0
                    25 August 2015 08: 54
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    You don’t even understand what criteria are laid down in the technical specifications for the design of weapons!

                    Only one thing will save me, I'm not alone in this. Are you with me.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    You don't know anything about weapons in reality

                    And cry from this with bitter tears. Consoling only with what you know.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    The cartridge 7,62 * 39 was adopted in 1943 according to the analysis of fire contacts on the battlefield.

                    The analysis was lousy. Or analysts? What, after 27 years, the Earth hit the celestial axis? Why was it necessary to drain the weapons that were put into service "based on the analysis of fire contacts on the battlefield"? And a lot of money was spent on it. In a poor country.
                    At least you try first come up with There is a logical explanation for this. And then daldon gave his revelations.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    M-16 is one of the models in service.

                    The main view. Main.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    See the specifications for the FN SCAR-H rifle. If you can’t do it myself, I’ll give you a reference

                    Learn to understand what is written.
                2. 0
                  25 August 2015 00: 22
                  You would at least read the Beetle’s encyclopedia or go to Popenker’s site, ignoramus.
                  There’s nothing to talk about with you, you don’t hear anyone and you know almost nothing. And ... erase the snot, boy, and or learn history.
                  1. 0
                    25 August 2015 08: 57
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    There’s nothing to talk about with you, you don’t hear anyone and you know almost nothing.

                    At least I’m almost. And you at all.
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    And ... erase the snot, boy, and or learn history.

                    Whose cow would mumble ...
                    Quote: Izotovp
                    You would at least read the Beetle’s encyclopedia or go to Popenker’s site, ignoramus.

                    So I see the "sources" of your revelations. It is necessary to choose sources of information more competently. Legible.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  35. 0
    24 August 2015 22: 51
    Weapons under the cartridge 7,62 * 39 are still being developed, manufactured and successfully operated around the world.
    1. 0
      24 August 2015 23: 21
      Quote: Izotovp
      Weapons under the cartridge 7,62 * 39 are developed, produced and successfully operated around the world until now.

      And again, you do not understand the difference between sports, hunting and army weapons. For the army, the cartridge of 7,62x39 mm died, so plainly and not having time to be born.
      And before that, the "brilliant Bolshevik army cartridge" 7,62x25 mm TT died.
      And quite recently the "genius universal Soviet patron" PM died for the army. Although it would be better for him for the army don't be born at all.
      But mastering the production of new products in large quantities costs serious money.
      This is a clear characteristic of the qualifications of the "strategists in red pants." So they flushed funds down the toilet, and the people were starving and cold.
  36. 0
    25 August 2015 00: 06
    Tell me, wise guy, when the cartridge 7,62 * 39 was born and for what tasks and to which class it belongs? On the basis of which cartridge was NATO 5,56 cartridge created?
    The ingenious Bolshevik cartridge was created on the basis of the ingenious German cartridge 7,62,23
    Only thanks to the Bolsheviks you exist. If it were not for the brilliant Soviet gunsmiths who created weapons in difficult times and the feat of Soviet soldiers under the leadership of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Stalin, you simply would not exist. Read Plan Ost.
    Many army cartridges are based on hunting and sports and vice versa.
    The cartridge 7,62 * 39 is one of the most successful, but, unfortunately, its modernization potential has not been fully realized and weapons are still being manufactured for it, how many times should I tell you ?!
    Did I already tell you the models and years of use, or do you hear nothing in your genius?
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 08: 45
      Quote: Izotovp
      Tell me, wise guy, when was the 7,62 * 39 cartridge born, and for what tasks and to which class does it belong? On the basis of which cartridge was NATO 5,56 cartridge created?

      Why is this? To have more words? Do you think the more these words, the smarter you look? You are mistaken.
      Quote: Izotovp
      The ingenious Bolshevik cartridge was created on the basis of the ingenious German cartridge 7,62,23

      Wah, what a surprise. You also forgot to attribute the word Mauser from behind. And the Mauser cartridge was converted from Borchard's cartridge. So Borchard's cartridge was a hunting (not army) cartridge. And Borchard's pistol was a hunting weapon. This is what it was written about in advertising for its sale. That's the way it is, my dear.
      Quote: Izotovp
      If it were not for the brilliant Soviet gunsmiths who created weapons in difficult times and not the feat of Soviet soldiers under the leadership of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Stalin, you would simply not be there.

      It's a miracle if Soviet soldiers had high-quality weapons and intelligent leaders, so maybe there wouldn't be a horror called war? And if it were, then maybe "a little blood and on foreign territory"? Didn't it occur to you?
      Quote: Izotovp
      Read Plan Ost.

      And why will I read agricultural proposals. Faculty of Berlin University?
      Quote: Izotovp
      Many army cartridges are based on hunting and sports and vice versa.

      Not true. All cartridges, if very roughly, are hunting cartridges. Some of them suitable for "hunting game" of a certain size are called army cartridges.
      A good army cartridge is a part of an army cartridge that allows you to "hunt game" of a certain size economically and under specified conditions. That's all.
      Quote: Izotovp
      Cartridge 7,62 * 39 is one of the most successful

      The cartridge 7,62 * 39 mm allows you to "hunt game" of certain sizes in conditions other than those specified. At a distance of 300 m instead of 400 m. Therefore, the 7,62 * 39 mm cartridge is an ersatz army cartridge. Those. you can use it in the army, but you don't need it. Because it is ineffective.
      Quote: Izotovp
      I have already called you models and years of use

      And can you even write where this is indicated?
  37. 0
    25 August 2015 14: 04
    Quote: SEC
    So the Borchard cartridge was a hunting (not army) cartridge.

    Quote: SEC
    The cartridge 7,62 * 39 mm allows you to "hunt game" of certain sizes in conditions

    Here you are not the first post write about "hunting" and "sports". And what's the point then? What's the difference from what the cartridge grew? The main thing is its parameters, which by 90% determine the characteristics of the weapon. As far as I know, the cartridge for the M-16 also grew out of a hunting one. Well, why did he become less lethal from this? The "useless" cartridge 7,62x39 is still being produced and fought all over the world - this is a fact. Where did you get 400m-450m from? Why not 1000m? Where is the "correct" distance criterion?
    Quote: SEC
    For the army, the cartridge of 7,62x39 mm died, so plainly and not having time to be born.

    It is not true. Just look at the TK for "Ratnik"
    Quote: SEC
    What, after 27 years, the Earth hit the celestial axis? Why was it necessary to drain the weapons that were put into service "based on the analysis of fire contacts on the battlefield"?

    You don't want to look around. What happened to FN FAL, M-14, G-3. You stubbornly refuse to compare. The cartridge 7,62x51 was also adopted "for the analysis of firing contacts." So why was it replaced with 5,56 in the Vietnam War in individual weapons? And remind me how long the M1 Garant lasted in service? How much was in service with the M-14 under the newest cartridge 7,62x51? I do not mean sniper options, but those that were issued to "line" fighters.
    Quote: SEC
    Therefore, the cartridge 7,62 * 39 mm is an ersatz army cartridge.

    Tell me: why, AFTER the war, to adopt a model for an ersatz cartridge? Where is the logic? After all, there were enough "correct" rifles with cartridges 7,62x54 R. Maybe the Soviet statistics (especially the military) were not so bad?
    1. 0
      25 August 2015 15: 48
      Quote: DesToeR
      What difference does a cartridge grow out of?

      Ammo does not grow. They are created. For specific goals and objectives. Their power after a noticeable period of time may increase slightly (due to changes in the composition of the powder). But, as a rule, this change is not very significant. An exception is a change in the type of gunpowder.
      Quote: DesToeR
      As far as I know, the cartridge for the M-16 has also grown from hunting. Well, and that he became less lethal from this?

      The main thing in the cartridge for the M-16 is a bullet of a different principle of action. The same applies to a 5,45x39 mm bullet. In cartridges with a classic bullet, everything was decided by the size of the sleeve.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The "useless" cartridge 7,62x39 is still being produced and fought all over the world - this is a fact.

      Produced in handicraft workshops. And he fights badly. Even "native". Lacks efficiency. Therefore, he was expelled from the SA.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Where did you get the 400m-450m from? Why not 1000m?

      The physiological ability of the human eye on an open sight. 50 m is usually added with automatic fire. A group of bullets get a little further more likely.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Just look at the TK for "Ratnik"

      So what? Is there only 7,62x39 mm? Believe me, there will be nothing large-scale on this cartridge. For the army, he is not air-conditioned.
      For special operations, maybe. But this is not an army.
      I do not exclude the possibility that once again the army will need the 7,62x39 mm cartridge again. But this will not happen before the moment when on the trunk of normal length and inexpensive gunpowder he will give out ~ 2700 J. And then, a walk. But not before. Those. this is actually a matter of gunpowder (chemistry).
      Quote: DesToeR
      The cartridge 7,62x51 was also adopted "for the analysis of firing contacts."

      I and this cartridge do not consider too successful. In my opinion, he also has flaws. But it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the cartridge 7,62x36 mm. If only because it is air-conditioned.
      Quote: DesToeR
      So why in the Vietnam war in individual weapons it was replaced by 5,56?

      Because it’s cheaper. Efficiency of cartridges 7,62x51 mm and 5,56 × 45 mm for individual weapons same. But the power (gunpowder, cartridge price) of the latter is much less. In addition to the latter, there are also advantages.
      And for machine guns it is better 7,62x51 mm.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Yes, and recall how long the M1 Garant lasted

      Garand was very good for its time. But the cartridge changed (naturally, 7,62x63 mm was excessively large) and Garand was replaced by M-14. This is a completely different story, of a different plan.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      25 August 2015 16: 00
      Quote: DesToeR
      How long was the M-14 armed with the latest cartridge 7,62x51?

      Here the stories of AK-47 and M-14 are somewhat similar. But there is also a big difference. 7,62x51 mm remains in service as a "machine gun". Those. money is well spent. And the 7,62x39 mm does not remain in service. Absolutely. Completely into the dumps. In special forces, somewhere else. But not in the army. Money down the drain.
      Quote: DesToeR
      But why AFTER the war take into service a model under an ersatz cartridge? Where is the logic?

      This question is not for me. I myself cannot find an answer to it. I think, from the standard axiom of the Russian person - a German will not do anything bad for himself. But, as it turned out, they did. In force majeure circumstances. And not bad, but a temporary ersatz. It is important here that the idea was not supported by anyone except the USSR. And from the "pioneers" the USSR turned into those who flew by. When we realized we were wrong.
      Quote: DesToeR
      After all, there were enough "correct" rifles with cartridges 7,62x54 R.

      Where did they come from? Of the automatic (and self-loading) rifles in the USSR, there was only DP-27. Is that called "enough"?
      Regarding this topic, I generally think that it was necessary to take the SVT-40, replace the inoperative elements of its automation with similar ones from the Sturmgewehr 44 and, therefore, make something like a self-loading SVT-45. Take it into service, the benefit in the factories equipment for the production of SVT-40 was. And use until 1974. Paired with RP-46. It is possible with a PC, it doesn’t matter.
      That would be very effective and very businesslike. Just what the poor country needed. And do not engage in erotic fantasies and expenses on the theme of small arms.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Maybe Soviet statistics (especially military) was not so bad?

      I don’t get it.

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