Tu-160M2: abyss or takeoff

243
Will the White Swan come back?

Today there is no shortage of statements by politicians and the military about the resumption of production of the Tu-160 strategic bomber. In words, everything seems to go smoothly, a lot of plans. But when you begin to delve into the technology and organization of the release of the aircraft, the picture changes dramatically. No wonder they say that the devil is in the details.

In preparing the material, the author was able to talk with many experts, fly to the Kazan airline, exchange views with workers, technologists, including from PJSC "Tupolev" - the head company, which together with KAPO them. S.P. Gorbunova is entrusted with a responsible mission. It turns out that no significant actions have yet been taken. First of all, there is no main thing - financing, without which nothing will happen.

Operation "cooperation"


To resume production of the Tu-160, you will have to dance from the stove - start by organizing the supply of new components. It is impossible to do everything in Kazan, no matter how much the leadership of KAPO would like.

Recall what was previously cooperation. Central sections and main parts of the fuselage were made by Kazan, wing - Voronezh (VASO), engine nacelles - Kumertau (Bashkiria) ... Kiev, Kharkov, Tashkent aircraft factories took part. Electronics was made in Zelenograd and Yerevan. And each company had its suppliers. According to some reports, the creation of the first Tu-160 had a hand in about 700 of various organizations of the Soviet Union. But today there are not many of them, others are redeveloped, others are waiting for funding, the fourth ones are out of Russia. In the same VASO today completely different tasks are being solved. In addition, there is no necessary equipment, such as vacuum furnaces for firing titanium. So VASO falls out of cooperation, as Kiev and Kharkiv - for a known reason.

The big question is: are other enterprises so eligible? Tu-160 - a unique machine, ahead of time by several decades and has not yet fully used inherent in its design capabilities. But the task of repeating it one by one is not worth it. It should be a completely different Tu. So, we need a new cooperation.

One of the main questions: who and what will do in the metal? To give the wing, its parts, titanium spars, nacelle, engines, chassis? .. In the correct selection of subcontractors - 50 percent of success. As one of the leading engineers-technologists of Tupolev shared with me, everyone is inclined to believe that Kazan should do most of the work, but will it really work out ...

Beautiful, but not perfect


Recall the Tu-160 (factory designation - “product 70”, according to NATO codification - Blackjack / “Blackjack”) - the most powerful in stories military aviation supersonic aircraft with variable wing geometry. The prototype (under the designation "70-01") first flew up to the sky on December 18, 1981 in Ramenskoye. The flight was performed by a crew led by Boris Veremey. The first production car (No. 1-01) took off on October 10, 1984. But in January 1992, Boris Yeltsin decided to suspend the serial production of the Tu-160 in the event that the United States ceases production of the B-2 ...

Tu-160M2: abyss or takeoff


From 1984 to 1992, the aircraft 34 was released the year, and more than half of them - 19 machines after the partition of the USSR remained in Ukraine. Now, to make the elements of the airframe, it is necessary to deploy the eliminated capacity again, since the airframe of the Tu-160 is unique and requires the creation of unparalleled equipment. Among the most problematic places are avionics, instruments, sights, missile guidance systems.

In addition, experts consider the indicators of speed and flight range of the Tu-160 today from a different angle. It is stated that the Tu-160 has a range at a speed of 2200 – 2500 kilometers per hour at an altitude of 18 000 meters - within 11 – 13 thousands of kilometers; in subsonic mode, at altitude and near the ground, 16 – 18 and 11 – 13 are thousands of kilometers, respectively. The plane was supposed to approach the target at cruising speed, and overcome enemy air defenses - in supersonic altitude mode or at cruising speed near the ground, carrying a combat load up to 45 tons.

But with such speeds, the plane can only fly without ammunition and full refueling, which is meaningless. It surpasses competitors in speed (B-1B and B-2) at distances up to 1000 kilometers. But at distances over 3000 kilometers, even the old B-52 bypasses it. There are questions about the duration of the flight, the size of the payload. And the engine overhaul life (2000 hours) is only enough for a couple of dozen sorties for combat duty.

Lack of brains and skills


In the matter of technology - the horse did not roll. The approximate plan pretends, but is not approved. A young chief designer, Tu-160, has been appointed, who is still learning a lot, he has no experience in creating and producing such machines. At one time he was chairman of the Council of Young Specialists.

“Nothing is ready, everyone is waiting for some kind of decision from above and approval of documents,” said the interlocutor of the Military Industrial Courier, Ph.D. - Only after this may appear a list of materials and technologies that will be used. What changes there will appear in comparison with the old car is unknown. Or known to a very narrow circle of people. "

The commander of the Air Force, Colonel-General Vladimir Bondarev ordered: already in 2020, the first dozen of Tu-160M vehicles should be released from the workshops. In total, the Ministry of Defense orders 50 upgraded Tu-160М2. According to the Deputy Minister of Defense Yuri Borisov, the Tu-160 will be an airplane, which is 2,5 times as superior as its predecessor. Tu-160М2 is planned to be equipped with a new weapon system, which allows the use of promising cruise missiles and bombs.

“And our designers are weak,” the process technician sighs. - They were good when they made the car for the first time, that is, still under the USSR. But they are not there, or they, like me, have long been retired. ”

Alas, the middle generation of specialists at such enterprises as KAPO or PJSC “Tupolev” turned out to be practically knocked out by 90's reforms, when people had to leave high-tech productions and go to the market, who was on guard. So, in personnel matters, you will have to start from scratch.

“Tu-160 was started to be made back in the 1978 year, I signed some instructions on it in the 1993-m,” recalled a representative of PJSC Tupolev, a person in years. “But after 1993 there are no more recent documents.” The archive is the old documentation in paper form. Now they want to transfer it to electronic, but why do it if everything has to be recycled, if technologies and materials change? Others will be, for example, aluminum alloys.

Titanium alloys we now go under the brand WHNUMXch - a complete analog of the American alloy (titanium-6, aluminum-6, vanadium). I remember that we had a chef, who was jokingly called “the technologist of all Russia” - Semyon Abramovich Vikdorchik, an honored scientist. It was he who insisted that we make such an alloy. And it was right. ”

The problem is that almost all of our alloys are coarse, with a large percentage of impurities. It comes to the fact that they make several batches of several heats. And then choose the one that corresponds to the calculated parameters. That's all the technology.

Profukan experience


In Russia, pilot production did not survive in any aviation design bureau. In PJSC “Tupolev” it was liquidated at the end of the 90s under General Director Klimov. Technologists, engineers, as they recall, walked around the factory then - they collected tools, trying to save something.

Pilot production should not be in the factory, but primarily in the KB. About his restoration in PJSC "Tupolev" now there is no question - such a serious blow was dealt to the plant in those failed years. And without it, starting a series is extremely difficult. In connection with this, it is possible to recall that in Tashkent at one time they produced up to 70 Il-76 planes per year, while the Ulyanovsk plant now assembles only three cars.

Another issue is securing the aviation industry with titanium. It is produced in Verkhnyaya Salda (Sverdlovsk region) at OJSC VSMPO-AVISMA Corporation, from where it is successfully shipped to the USA, where parts with preliminary machining are made of alloys. VSMPO-AVISMA can supply the same W6ч and high-strength aluminum alloys in PJSC "Tupolev". However, not all so simple. When the alloy is processed (bending, molding, hardening, surface deformation), it changes its properties. Therefore, making calculations for strength, experts advise not to be guided by the initial state of the alloy, but by the one it acquires after processing. Americans take this into account in the design strength calculations, but we do not. Do not want or can not?

Chrome or not chrome chassis? Americans do not do this, because this operation increases the cost of construction, but does not increase its reliability and durability. Chrome plating is used to obtain an anti-friction layer, which can be created by applying chemical nickel with phosphorus. It performs well as a protective and anti-friction layer. Such an operation was proposed in PJSC “Tupolev”, but it was not accepted. It seems like it would have to restructure production.

A special conversation about the engines. The point is to put the upgraded NK-2016 on White Swan from 32 onwards. The resumption of serial production of this turbojet engine, which was discontinued in 1993, was initiated at a meeting on the development of the defense industry complex of the Russian Federation chaired by the president in 2010. The required investment is more than eight billion rubles. These funds are provided for in the Federal Target Program “Development of the Defense Industry Complex of the Russian Federation for the Period 2011 – 2020”. Kuznetsov OJSC (Samara), a subsidiary of UEC, is engaged in restoring the production of NK-32. In 2016, the plant plans to produce several upgraded engines. In the future, the Russian military will be delivered dozens of NK-32. Moreover, on the basis of the NK-32 it is planned to create an engine for the promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA).

In many ways, lost organization of production. We, as the engineers themselves say, have introduced democracy in the assembly, with the result that the master and the worker are responsible for the initial operations. There is no Quality Department, no military acceptance. They are now exercising control only at the final stage of release, when it is almost impossible to fix something. A simple example: at the Kazan Aviation Plant, standard reamers are used to finish the holes. Everything is on the conscience of the worker and the master. The result is poor quality, but there is no strict control at this stage.

Bolt - around the head


Nizhny Novgorod plant "Normal" is engaged in cold heading of bolts from alloy W16. At one time, being the head of a sector in the department of technological laboratories, the expert of the Military-Industrial Courier compared it with the alloy W6h. It was a test of fatigue and durability testing of bolts from two different alloys. And came to an amazing conclusion. Bolts of alloy W6ch were almost an order of magnitude stronger. In addition, they were lighter, which is extremely important for the aircraft. For example, the proportion of bolts and fasteners made of W6ch alloy is equal to 4,43 g / cm3, and that of WXXUMUM alloy - 16 g / cm4,68. As reflected in the instructions. After that, from this very factory, his supervisor was called directly. Like, we both released such bolts with such a specific weight, and we will release them. Why? Because it is so convenient for the plant. They got off the landing to get the appropriate size - and that's it. But they did not achieve a decrease in the density of the metal. Today, use these bolts on the Tu-3М160 - yesterday. All the difference between 2 g / cm4,68 and 3 g / cm4,43 goes into the weight of the aircraft. But to go to the alloy VHNUMXch, we need a modernization of the plant, machine tool park. Because a normal alloy, as the technologists say, “does not land”. And W 3 lands. If the TU-6М16 is riveted with the help of such bolts, this will not only make the car heavier, but will also affect the strength of the structure. Another problem is the molding of parts. In Kazan and Kiev in the old days, when wing panels were made, they were molded by shot. In the US, too, so do. But there - the mass production of aircraft and its own technology. We have our own. In Samara, tried to mold these parts on the Tu-160. In PJSC "Tupolev" was also prepared instructions for forming a fraction. But then Kazan offered to do everything in the press. And immediately the workers lost their wages. Because the molding on the press and fraction requires different times, and the rates of payment remain the same.

Despite all of the above, KAPO, experts believe, is basically ready to reproduce the Tu-160. Although, we repeat, there is still no specific task, no money. There are none, however, in PJSC "Tupolev". Although the production start-up scheme is very clear: TK - money - work.

Of the technological equipment and the machine park at KAPO, there were good three-coordinate machines. Recently ordered a more modern - five-coordinate, but they have yet to learn. Installations for electron beam welding (EBW), vacuum kilns will be required. Everything requires revision.

According to the corresponding member of the two academies - the Russian engineering and military sciences - Viktor Kovalev, the first thing to do is to restore the assembly line. If real specialists, who care for our aviation, and not “effective managers,” take on the matter, everything is solved.

With regard to the readiness of PJSC "Tupolev", it is, according to some estimates, not high enough. First of all, due to the fact that there are many young people who do not have experience working on such large-scale projects. But presumably, the former chief designer of the Tu-160 Valentin Bliznyuk (he is now for 80, but he is still working as a consultant) will help, figuratively speaking, to put the factory youth on the wing. Nevertheless, Nikolai Savitsky, the company's general director, Valeriy Solozobov, his deputy for design, research and development, and other managers will have to come to grips with personnel problems in the near future. There are practically no middle-aged specialists. There is a generation of 30-year-olds and those who are far beyond 60.

And do it!


What is needed first? Solve the issue of financing. Include recreation of the Tu-160 in the state defense order. To ensure the production and release of new technologies and materials. Update machine park and technological equipment. To form cooperation. Prepare frames.

In the workshops of KAPO, which I managed to visit, there were several Tu-160 and Tu-22М3 standing in the technological forests. Work was actively going on, electronic stuffing and other equipment were changing. The company still has specialists who created the Tu-160 in Soviet times and can pass on the experience, but there are very few of them.

Unfortunately, the state of the machine park at the plant leaves much to be desired. Completely Soviet-made units, the tolerances and accuracy of which do not meet the requirements of the time.

And the last. Technological solutions for the resumption of production of the Tu-160 aircraft have already been presented by four enterprises: Electroautomatics Design Bureau named after P. A. Efimov, Ulyanovsk Instrument Engineering Design Bureau (UKBP), Tekhpribor and Radio Signal. They are developing onboard equipment. The missile carrier will be equipped with a BINS-SP type of inertial navigation system, as well as a highly effective EW system with improved tactical and technical capabilities to overcome the air defense system.

In a word, there is electronics, new weapons, but no aircraft. And when they give a flick on his reproduction, it is still unknown.
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243 comments
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  1. +11
    August 16 2015
    If it turns out to be produced at 3 units per year, as promised, then this is of course "takeoff"! The most important thing is to do one thing, or Tu-160M2 or PAK YES (I am for Tu-160M2, for supersonic), but in no case two models in parallel.
    1. +7
      August 16 2015
      "Supersonic" is not a panacea, because A high-flying and brightly luminous target, even at two swings, is not a problem for modern Rocket, but an inconspicuous target at the same height is still a problem, although it flies much slower. So PAK YES is still preferable in our time.
      1. +9
        August 16 2015
        Unfortunately, PAK YES is also a strategic bomber (not to be confused with a front-line bomber), and therefore I doubt that it has a flight mode with terrain enveloping (like the Su-24, for example). And it will not be "unobtrusive" at all, the same jet engines and huge dimensions.
        1. +6
          August 16 2015
          The Tu-22m3 has such a regime, about the Tu-160 there was infa that it also has.
          So, yes, the pack will surely be with a similar opportunity
          1. FID
            +16
            August 16 2015
            Quote: Igor K
            Tu-22m3 has such a mode,

            MVP blocks (low-altitude flight) were dismantled WITH ALL Tu-22M3 aircraft ... MVP is involved in the Tu-160.
            1. +3
              August 16 2015
              Removed - not cut down, put back.
          2. +5
            August 16 2015
            Quote: Igor K
            Tu-22m3 has such a mode


            From hatching, from the moment it was born on the Tu-22M (neither on 2-ke nor 3-ke), there NEVER was an MVK (low-altitude circuit) system for flying in the BEND mode of the terrain.
            ABSU-145 and 145M allows you to perform flights in director and automatic control modes from heights of 200 meters to the practical ceiling .. but this is a completely different matter (since the N barometric from the DSV goes to the computer and subsequently to the ABSU to generate signals control depending on the barometric pressure set on the UVID or either 760 mm Hg for high altitudes .. or P min. min.to the level (above the area where the flight is in automatic mode).
            All automatic mode is "controlled" by the NK-45 .. at high altitudes, a turn is performed with a roll of 37 degrees, at low altitudes - 23 degrees.
            In addition, together with the Bort-45 trajectory control system and adjacent RNO and NK systems, it implements director and automatic modes during approach in the SP-50, Katet or ILS systems according to international standards of ICAO category 2.
            Well ... somewhere like that ... if Che didn’t forget wink
            Dear SSI ... correct drinks
            1. FID
              +5
              August 16 2015
              Quote: ancient
              Dear SSI ... correct

              Dear, ancient! I already wrote that the BUNP and VMP units were removed from all sides of the Tu-22M3 (ABSU-145M p.3-2), except for an extremely small series of aircraft with ABSU-145M p.4 ... (sailors, reconnaissance)
              1. +7
                August 16 2015
                Quote: SSI
                Dear, ancient! I already wrote that the BUNP and VMP units were removed from all sides of the Tu-22M3 (ABSU-145M p.3-2)


                Serezha, I'm sorry drinks still "focusing" is knocked down, and "sharpness" is not enough lol because a week of holidays, and today .. just the main day of the Air Force fellow and the whole Air Fleet is still ahead wink
                Eh ... to withstand ... because years already ... not those wassat

                Although the leading pair of "oldies" still at least where fellow good soldier drinks

                1. FID
                  +6
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: ancient
                  Although the leading pair of "oldies" still at least where

                  An old one! Health to you !!!
        2. +1
          August 16 2015
          Unlike PAK FA, the new Tu-160 and the promising PAK DA can indeed be made multipurpose by placing a complex on board for intercepting and destroying air, sea and ground targets, possibly even ballistic ones. The benefit of the dimensions and energy allow. It is too expensive and not effective for the new missile carriers to accompany modern cover fighters as in previous times.
      2. +4
        August 16 2015
        On the other hand, with the enormous size of Russia and a frankly weak fleet, such a bomber is needed for delivering missiles, for example, in a short time, the greater the technical potential inherent in the product, the greater the versatility of use.
        160 has great technical potential.
        1. -11
          August 16 2015
          Son! This frankly weak fleet is the second largest in the world in terms of number and firepower, and for the separate types of ships even on the first.
          1. +11
            August 16 2015
            Son, this is unlikely, take a closer look at the quantitative composition and that in the ranks, in the Pacific Fleet, for example, from the existing surface 4 bpk (one for decommissioning), two destroyers (constantly being repaired), and a missile cruiser of the Antey project, there is also a trifle such as mrk , mpc but small and in a state of often unsatisfactory.
            At this theater of possible military operations: Japan is about 80 ships, South Korea is about 75, China is about 300 ships, I speak from memory, therefore I will probably admit inaccuracies in quantity.
            Therefore, we definitely need aviation in the person of the Tu-160, Tu-22m3 to level this situation.
            1. +6
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Igor K
              Japan about 80 ships, South Korea about 75, China about 300 ships,


              So this ... how much do you need then the Tu-160s and Tu-22M3? belay , what would ... "level" ... what is there? wassat
              1. +2
                August 16 2015
                How many there are and full-length trenches.
                1. 0
                  August 18 2015
                  Quote: Igor K
                  How many there are and full-length trenches.


                  and mine, mine laughing
            2. 0
              August 18 2015
              and by the word "ships" from the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, you mean exclusively cruisers and destroyers? or do they also have RTOs and other ships with a displacement of less than 2000-3000 tons?
          2. +2
            August 16 2015
            Quote: rubin6286
            Son! This frankly weak fleet is the second largest in the world in terms of number and firepower, and for the separate types of ships even on the first.
            Another one drew up screaming "Urryayaya! Peremoga!" What the hell is the fleet in the Far East? Chickens laugh, all you can ask ... is am Well, what separate types of ships did you see? life rafts?
        2. +2
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Igor K
          such a bomber is needed for delivery of PKR for example in a short time,


          There is little left to do ... "create" such a RCC wink
          1. +1
            August 16 2015
            X-35 will not work?
            As far as I know, there is another nomenclature, Bramos is again on the way.
            1. +1
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Igor K
              X-35 will not work?


              If the ships do not have air defense weapons .. why not .. everything will go .. all the more they go there .. at least in 70, at least in 4503 ... you can "cram" a lot .. that's just how it, darling "tie" in theirs SUV wassat ?
      3. +3
        August 16 2015
        Quote: wanderer
        but an inconspicuous target at the same height is still the problem, although it flies much slower.

        But an unobtrusive goal !!! Maybe enough for the Americans to repeat? have your opinion.
      4. +1
        August 16 2015
        And if we assume that the PAK YES is created to replace the Tu-95 and so far no rush is needed? :)
        The author's notions of strategists remained somewhere in the 60s. Why "break through the air defense", if strategists now have cruise missiles with a range of thousands of kilometers and, moreover, in the performance of stealth? And besides that, there are Yars with an unpredictable launch trajectory (all European missile defense under the tail) and maneuvering hypersonic warheads (all American missile defense under the tail)? And besides the Yars, there are submarines that are on duty in the oceans and, first of all, take out command posts. And for the destruction of AUG, the requirements for strategists change somewhat. And shouting like the author: "Chef, everything is lost" is not comme il faut :)
      5. 0
        August 18 2015
        off topic: Markeeva read, alex?
      6. 0
        October 18 2016
        Nowadays, there are no materials that completely absorb radio waves; therefore, this whole idea (invisibility) is nonsense; the example is Americans billions somewhere under the tail
    2. +2
      August 16 2015
      I agree, 160 it is necessary to increase the fleet, again, this will contribute to the creation of a technical, technological, personnel reserve for the further production of the package.
      1. +5
        August 16 2015
        Son!

        First, write on a piece of paper what you think there is technological, personnel, etc. "touched" and what is needed for each of them. Figure out where it all comes from (except money) for any "backlog" to take and how long it will take. Then everything will become clear without too much chatter.
        1. +7
          August 16 2015
          Quote: rubin6286
          Son!

          First, write on a piece of paper what you think there is technological, personnel, etc. "touched"


          Papa

          If everyone is looking for backlogs and doing nothing, then where will the backlogs come from, how do people start with something without backlogs?
          1. +4
            August 16 2015
            I see that you have not understood anything either. Even if you personally entrust this task and give money for it, you will not complete it. There are no personnel, no technology, no machines and equipment, no free space and many other things, but the deadline is specific - by 2020 everything should be! Here's how you write on a piece of paper what you need and you will see that there is nowhere to take, all the chatter will stop immediately. This is only in the songs of our "stars" - "Music pours out of nowhere"!
            1. +3
              August 16 2015
              Everything is gone, ahhh. So what?
              If there’s nowhere to go, you won’t go anywhere.
              We have a large shipbuilding plant under construction in the Far East, the launch site will be commissioned soon. A lot has been broken, little has been done, but done and there is no need to spread defeatist sentiments here.
            2. +2
              August 16 2015
              Quote: rubin6286
              Here’s how you write on a piece of paper what you need and see that there is nowhere to take,

              Under the Soviet Union, there was a director of the Minsk Refrigerator Plant, and so, on his own initiative, with the help of the Japanese, he built a modern compressor plant, he was then fired for non-targeted waste, but even now Atlant is competitive.

              I nevertheless believe that the technical documentation for the aircraft exists in which all the calculations, reading articles that state that there is no place to process titanium and at the same time exporting titanium parts to Boeing and Airbus aircraft, a smile arises involuntarily on the face.
              To be or not to be this plane depends only on the will of the country's leaders.
              Pants always interfered with a bad dancer. As in the Union with the cadres was in the 30s? If the country does not pay engineers, then the achievement of this country will be a worthless bazaar.

              Quote: rubin6286
              "Music is pouring out of nowhere"!

              Where funds were actually allocated to factories, for example "Sevmash", "Irkut" look how many young people work, maybe not everyone knows how to do it, but they will learn.
              Nothing was ever built on pessimism; until 2020, nothing can be put forward.
            3. +2
              August 16 2015
              Quote: rubin6286
              This is only in the songs of our "stars" - "Music pours out of nowhere"!

              Well, why only in the songs of our stars?
              Here is from your "song" music
              Quote: rubin6286
              Son! This frankly weak fleet - second in the world in number and firepower, and for certain types of ships even on the first.

              ......
              Quote: rubin6286
              Even if you personally entrust this task and give money for it, you won’t fulfill it. There are no personnel, no technology, no machines and equipment, no free space and much more, but a specific deadline - everything should be by 2020!

              This is understandable, and about the article.
              But, what do you think, to restore the production of Tu-160 by 2020 (Personally, I doubt very much that the current leadership of the country can do this. It's not about holding the Olympic Games and the World Cup, it's getting thinner and harder here) it's harder than creating a fleet, really capable (and not what you muttered above) of resisting the fleets of potential opponents?
              It seems to me that you clung to "Igor K" only out of a desire to arrange a fucking mess?
          2. +6
            August 16 2015
            Quote: saturn.mmm
            If all the backlogs are to be found and nothing to do then where will the backlogs come from


            Michael, dear, but ..in Rubin6286 ABSOLUTELY RIGHT !!!

            How do you, in an empty place, even with the "cash" start this .. "try" to own?

            Try again to carefully read the article and delve into its meaning ... as an adult, discarding the "desire" of urya-patriotism.
            Yours faithfully, drinks
            1. +3
              August 16 2015
              Quote: ancient
              How do you, in an empty place, even with the "cash" start this .. "try" to own?

              And who said it would be easy?
              Well, where is the empty space? In Russia, there are UAC, poorly operating aviation enterprises, design bureaus, some kind of electronics, etc., I repeat, there is technical documentation for the plane where there are all the calculations, Sergei Ivanovich is.
              Or, all the documentation is lost and who made the plane did everyone die?
              Best regards drinks .

              We can’t build ships, we can’t build airplanes, so maybe in NATO, in the line for Ukraine, but don’t fool anyone or yourself?
              1. +7
                August 16 2015
                Quote: saturn.mmm
                We cannot build ships, we cannot build airplanes,

                we cannot yet, but rather those in power do not want it, bypassing themselves with declarations and populist statements.
                And from the attributes of a great power we only have nuclear weapons and some legacy of the USSR, which have not yet been pulled, sold, or destroyed ...
                Quote: saturn.mmm
                so maybe in NATO, in turn for Ukraine, but do not fool anyone or yourself?

                It is better to change the socio-political system to a popular one, hand out earrings to everyone and start building anew, great and prosperous country.
              2. +5
                August 16 2015
                Quote: saturn.mmm
                And who said it would be easy?


                His surname .. is too well known .. to "call" her wink ( it's sarcasm).

                You see, Mikhail ... at the very least ... you can't "drive in" here.
                Ask in a personal with Sergei Ivanovich ... if you answer .. you find out .. a lot of interesting and all .. "urya-patriotism" .. will dry up like smoke or morning fog crying

                The documentation is not lost .. but that's all on what to do ... where are you going to take? And People .. who will do it request

                Why can't we ... because we can do something, but ... here is a completely different "calico", unfortunately crying

                And buying is so easy ... "friendly" China here it is ... ready, just give me the technology, and they have had machines and programs for a long time .. but what do we have?
                That's right ... "Gazprom .... national treasure" wassat (very big sarcasm) lol
        2. +1
          August 16 2015
          For starters, it’s not you but you, I’m close to you.
          This is a technological reserve in my understanding: the possibility of carrying out technological operations on equipment specially designed for this, in Russian, it is necessary to purchase what is required.
          The personnel reserve is the availability of personnel from the worker, technician, engineer to the junior and senior scientific staff.
          Technical hurt this, roughly speaking, the very possibility of placing all of the above.
          Perhaps you live on the moon if you think that factories with people who know their business appear by magic.
          Look around and be surprised, breaking does not build, and sooo much is broken.
      2. +2
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Igor K
        I agree, 160 it is necessary to increase the park,


        It remains only to understand .. HOW to do this and WHO will do it wink
        1. +1
          August 17 2015
          Quote: ancient
          It remains only to understand .. HOW to do this

          As usual, in manual mode. There is no other way



          Quote: ancient
          WHO will do it

          As usual - that Who Should Not Be Named wink laughing

          But will it work out? Still, the construction of sports facilities is not the production of aircraft. It just won’t come out that way.
    3. +13
      August 16 2015
      Quote: KGB WATCH YOU
      If it turns out to be produced at 3 units per year, as promised, then this is of course "takeoff"!

      In the USSR, in cooperation with the 15 republics, and in the presence of specialists and an industrial base, the 4 TU-160 was produced per year! It is too early to talk about 3 cars a year ...
      Quote: KGB WATCH YOU
      (I am for Tu-160M2, for supersonic)

      And why not for the T-4? He was even faster than the Swan.
      Quote: KGB WATCH YOU
      but by no means an 2 model in parallel.

      Until they reach even the prototype PAK DA, it will take another 10-15 years. And the fleet of our strategists is not young (remember TU-95). So the resumption of production of the TU-160 is vital, so as not to lose the fleet of strategists in general thereby lose one of the components of the triad.
      1. FID
        +12
        August 16 2015
        Hello Andrey!
        Quote: NEXUS
        And why not for the T-4? He was even faster than the Swan.

        All "weaving" does not give rest? No, we must forget about it ... There are no specialists who built it, specialists in Tu-160 are already barely visible ...
        1. +10
          August 16 2015
          Quote: SSI
          Hello Andrey!

          Good afternoon, Sergey Ivanovich. Glad to see you in good health. hi
          12 did not congratulate you on the holiday, so I am doing it now. May God grant you good health and longevity, as well as happiness, love and prosperity to your family and you personally. drinks
          Quote: SSI
          All "weaving" does not give rest?

          It doesn’t. It's a shame for the Power. The plane was a fairy tale. And you know that. what

          Quote: SSI
          Tu-160 is barely visible ...

          Oh, they’d have time, and so that there would be enough strength and will.
          Best regards hi
          1. FID
            +13
            August 16 2015
            Quote: NEXUS
            I did not congratulate you on the 12th of the holiday, so I am doing it now

            Today I have a holiday - the 3rd Sunday of August - Air Force Day, and August 18 - Day of the Air Fleet of the USSR. But THANKS for the congratulations!
            1. +1
              August 16 2015
              Quote: SSI
              Today I have a holiday - the 3rd Sunday of August - Air Force Day, and August 18 - Day of the Air Fleet of the USSR.


              Not just one, dear Sergei Ivanovich, but practically all pensioners, but it is easier for us .. not working .. it turns out almost a whole week .... "aviation holidays (beginning of the 12th-end of the 18th) ... wow. ... health is enough! drinks
              1. FID
                +1
                August 16 2015
                Quote: ancient
                Without losing one, dear Sergey Ivanovich,

                I already congratulated you in the letter! Of course, not with me alone !!!
              2. +2
                August 16 2015
                Quote: ancient
                Not just one, dear Sergei Ivanovich, but practically all pensioners, but it is easier for us .. not working .. it turns out almost a whole week .... "aviation holidays (beginning of the 12th-end of the 18th) ... wow. ... health is enough!

                With long holidays, you Sasha. drinks
                All to you and more. And health with patience and well-being of the family.
                Quote: ancient
                Why was there, Andrey ..

                Yes, I'm all about the sore, about "weaving" .... eh.
                And as for the PAK FA, one citizen assures us that we will see them in series by the 20 year ... like that. Although I have not heard statements about time shifts. Maybe you and Sergey Ivanovich are in the know. request
                Sincerely. hi
                1. +1
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  And as for the PAK FA, one citizen assures us that we will see them in series by the 20 year ... like that. Although I have not heard statements about time shifts. Maybe you and Sergey Ivanovich are in the know.


                  I like this plane very much, +! drinks

                  Well .. "citizens" they are ... how they will hear or be told what to say, so .... "Let the show beginn!", As our .. "partner colleagues" like to say wassat

                  I have one such .. "ideological" (for the whole head wassat) proved that the most "hit helicopter in the world" Ka-52K is already in full swing .. "bullets both the X-35 and X-31" ... Oh, howbelay

                  In fact, already Bondarev announced on PAK YES that only the stages of OCD will begin only after 2021 wink

                  Well, for the T-50 .... for 60-2 there is a shift already at the end of the year ... I will not say anything about the "transformer" bully

                  Well, from a pleasant .. again began to fly 50-1 soldier
                  1. +2
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: ancient
                    I like this plane very much, +!

                    Yes, "weaving" would undoubtedly give us 15 years ahead of time, if it was done according to the mind. But apparently not destiny. request
                    Quote: ancient
                    Well .. "citizens" they are ... how they will hear or be told what to say, so .... "Let the show beginn!", As our .. "partner colleagues" like to say

                    Well, this comrade still read to me about the concept of the 5 generation fighters, and he also gave it out, about the 20 year-
                    Quote: BerXen
                    And what about my calculations? These are the UEC calculations.

                    Secondly, in order for the aircraft to be adopted, it must go through a long, tedious test program at GLITs, the city of Akhtubinsk. The T-50 only got there last summer and is still flying little and on a limited program. For comparison, the Su-35 has been pickled there since 2011, and despite the fact that it was "adopted", the GSE is still there. The status of this aircraft in the Air Force is similar to that of the F-35B.

                    Once again - fighter generation is a theoretical set of certain technologies. Stealth, an advanced information management system, cruising supersonic are generally accepted. Over-maneuverability by tradition is our feature. Further - the Americans embodied all the things laid out for the fifth generation on the F-22. There, even the OVT is albeit not all-aspect. This is the only fifth-generation aircraft in service. That is exactly what I had in mind when I said that we were behind the generation. Because our fifth generation has a long way to go before adopting it. 2016 media tales are so funny that I don’t even know. None of the T-50 flew for super-maneuverability, none of the T-50 fired either missiles or a cannon, the glider was redrawn from a third aircraft. What series in 2016 are they telling us about?

                    Here's an interesting conversation. winked
                    According to him, we are lagging behind the generation, while the comrade does not take into account that the main indicator of all the above is real air combat. But the F-35, as he said, is recognized by all specialists, the designer is an 5 generation fighter. I really disagree, Sasha. About the lightning speed characteristics, I modestly remain silent. hi
          2. +2
            August 16 2015
            Quote: NEXUS
            It doesn’t. It's a shame for the Power. The plane was a fairy tale. And you know that


            Why was there Andrei .. while there is still ... and God forbid, that they could at least upgrade the 2nd stage in the remaining ones.
            About the "new" I do not even discuss the topic ... it's MANILOVSCHINA !!! soldier
            And interestingly ... no one will bear responsibility for it .. well, who will be asking whom in 15-20 years? wassat (while "humans" do not live to be 100 years old) wink
            1. FID
              +1
              August 16 2015
              Quote: ancient
              Why was Andrey

              He regrets it about "weaving" ...
    4. +2
      August 16 2015
      It turns out that no significant action has yet been taken. First of all, there is no main thing - financing, without which there will be nothing.


      In a word, there is electronics, new weapons, but no aircraft. And when they give a flick on his reproduction, it is still unknown.


      like this and like that everywhere, like something is being done, like movement and chatter is happening, but in fact everything is STANDING UP. Science is no longer able to help production, because the same reasons, there are no specialists, everything is going on in production with a terrible creak , because the government didn’t send money, the military is talking about big plans, but what the hell are the plans if NOT FOR WHAT? What kind of state do we have? a year and a half, as Shoigu had already called for the restoration of the Tu160, and the government is squeezing money for production? In short, with such a government as there was a mess it remains ...
      1. FID
        +3
        August 16 2015
        Quote: War and Peace
        a year and a half as Shoigu advocated the restoration of tu160

        Yes, he simply said that it would be nice to restore production, and the bourgeoisie picked up ... He did not offer to restore ... After all, even maintaining airworthiness is already a difficult program ...
        1. +1
          August 16 2015
          Quote: SSI
          Quote: War and Peace
          a year and a half as Shoigu advocated the restoration of tu160

          Yes, he simply said that it would be nice to restore production, and the bourgeoisie picked up ... He did not offer to restore ... After all, even maintaining airworthiness is already a difficult program ...


          how did it "not offer"? exactly when he offered, it is necessary to answer for the market if the state leader
          http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2541878
      2. 0
        August 16 2015
        I just have a question. Here everyone in hysteria fought that there were no young designers, but in the article they write that, on the contrary, the Tupolevs have too many of them. Yes, and the chief designer of the new Tu160 is young. Well, where did the 30-year-old designers come from the Tupolevites, if the responsible comrades on the site have repeatedly stated - there are no young engineers in the country?
        1. +1
          August 16 2015
          Quote: g1v2
          I just got a question


          wow_no question
          if they called a constructor, this does not mean that the young constructor is actually ...
        2. FID
          +1
          August 16 2015
          Quote: g1v2
          Yes, and the chief designer of the new tu160 young appointed

          It’s in Kazan, where KAI prepares specialists, and in Kazan it also has an aircraft factory, a helicopter plant, and a motor plant ... An aviation city, and at KAPO - a branch of Tupolev Design Bureau. There are young people, but where do they work, that’s the question? In Tupolev Design Bureau, mainly the one that is engaged in the development of new aircraft, I have not met young people ...
        3. 0
          August 16 2015
          Quote: g1v2
          Well, where did the 30-year-old designers come from the Tupolevites, if the responsible comrades on the site have repeatedly stated - there are no young engineers in the country?


          From where the "young talents" come from with VERY HIGH PARENTS or RELATIVES wink
          I hope there is no need to give "examples"? lol
          1. +1
            August 16 2015
            Well, if you think the children are VERY HIGH PARENTS or RELATIVES GO TO THE DESIGNER, then you are a super optimist. That's something in my opinion such children are more likely to go into business or an office chair. But if such children went to your mind as designers, then everything in the country is not bad. laughing Here I personally by training, just a design engineer, although not VPK. I work as a shift engineer. Subordinate adjusting engineers and operators, both I and the shift workers have all that have been in my memory from 27 to 40 years (the company has a politician - itm is over 40 and does not take operators). So a groan constantly smiles at me that everything is gone and the youth are not going to production. As I already wrote in the comments there were several aviation technicians by education. In adjacent units, too, the people are mostly young. Institutes and technical schools graduate engineers constantly. Another thing is that the majority, having received a diploma in a specialty, do not work. Well, those factories and corporations that are worried about the future lead capable students, they pay extra scholarships, they familiarize them with production so that the student is confident of employment. And those who are stupidly waiting for specialists to run to them, they constantly complain about the lack of staff. When I defended my diploma, after the defense, members of the commission immediately offered me a job in my specialty, but I joined the army. IN GENERAL YOUTH IS, BUT IT SHOULD BE CONDUCTED AND INTERESTED. Not a state university, but directors and chief engineers of factories and concerns. And if you sit exactly on the pope and wait for the crowds of experienced designers, you will only have to complain and disrupt orders. Kazan citizens - GOOD FELLOWS and others also need to think about the future.
    5. 0
      August 16 2015
      The State Department is to blame for everything!
    6. 0
      August 16 2015
      until they bring the pack to production 10 years will pass. here, the timing is just right for replacing the Tu-160 with it.
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. 0
      August 18 2015
      Yeltsin, the cock is always drunk, he closed so many unique productions, Judas ... now it’s been possible to restore such productions for a very long time ... eh ...
  2. +6
    August 16 2015
    We don’t store what we have, but we lost, weeping. We were instructed to do it from the top, and now turnips are scratched from below, but how?! So much has been destroyed, but to start practically from zero ...
  3. +6
    August 16 2015
    ... The father of nations in the frames understood
    He correctly set these frames
    “Cadres decide everything!” - was known
    It’s a pity that this is inappropriate now ...
  4. +3
    August 16 2015
    So they gave the go-ahead for the reproduction of the aircraft. The only thing that is unclear is the issue of funding, although if the Ministry of Defense orders 50 aircraft, it means that this issue was somehow resolved. And the rest of the article is a continuous cry of Nesmeyana, and our alloys are not the same, and the machines are not these, and there are no personnel, and salaries have dropped if we have applied more advanced technologies (well, how else). In short, everything is bad. Oh yes, I forgot - to transfer or not transfer documentation from paper to an electronic device is also a very important question. And the chief designer is very young. All. kapets. We take a liter of vodka, sit down at the table, drink a glass and start crying - the chef is all gone, all is lost. Or maybe we'll just start working. Just WORK. Not a "number" to serve at your workplace with smoke breaks and mid-term fights, but just work. What if it works out. After all, how did it work before?
    1. FID
      +16
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Kos_kalinki9
      What if it works out. After all, how did it work before?

      Previously, the country was different ... And people are different. Who will work overtime today, for the same salary ???
      1. +5
        August 16 2015
        Quote: SSI
        Previously, the country was different ...

        Previously, the adversary was different and the world is different.

        Quote: SSI
        Who will work overtime today, for the same salary ???

        There are people burning with enthusiasm, but of course there are a lot less of them than during the USSR. Idiology is not in the country, hence the pursuit of a long ruble and rest in the Bahamas ...
        Sincerely. hi
        1. 0
          August 16 2015
          Quote: NEXUS
          There are people burning with enthusiasm, but of course there are a lot less of them than in the USSR


          There are of course, especially on "Irkut" fellow , but .. on one "enthusiasm" you won’t go far, all the more .. people work downstairs, don’t even work, but plow or work in, and on top of .... "checkers" (like in "chapaeva" play) go , but they do the same .. "want" and more and more come, and they do the same .. "want" wassat
      2. +5
        August 16 2015
        Quote: SSI
        Previously, the country was different ... And people are different. Who will work overtime today, for the same salary ???

        I agree with you 100%. The country is different and people may have changed. A lot of divorced managers, lawyers, supervisors (barely spoken), oh a lot. And vocational education drove into such a hole .... Bred different offices. And what is the way out. Sitting and sprinkling ashes on your head? There is a lot of talk in the country now, it needs to be done and it needs to be developed, but this does not go beyond conversations. That at the level of government, that at the level of a simple hard worker. Now they’re not going to WORK, but they are going to EARN. Recently, a guy came to work to get a job as an electrician, he did not ask what he would do and what responsibilities he had, but asked how much he would receive. It is to receive and not to earn.
        1. FID
          +5
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Kos_kalinki9
          how much will he receive. It is to receive rather than earn

          Here, here ... It is GET. To work as we worked before ... Now all the talk that labor productivity is lagging behind us ... And in the West, workers do not hold a simple screwdriver in their hands - everything is mechanical, and our managers are paying dividends, not modernizing production. And all because the charter of each enterprise states that the main goal is to make a profit, not to produce products ...
          1. +4
            August 16 2015
            Quote: SSI
            And in the west the workers do not hold a simple screwdriver in their hands - everything is mechanical,




            Good afternoon, Sergey Ivanovich. hi


            Hold. If we have a turner or a milling machine operator who works on CNC machines and cannot (work with everything else) on a conventional turning or milling machine, then this is not exactly a turner or a milling machine operator.

            Use every opportunity to master another machine from a metal park.
            An installer comes to your car - you also try to delve into all the details.

            A "software" adjuster comes to your car - the same story - you even bring him coffee - just to explain it to you intelligibly.

            Writing programs with elements of a high-level programming language is also not required at this company, but you do it for yourself.

            For this is your professional knowledge base, which you yourself care about.

            Because only specialists are valued here.

            Well, a good specialist is supposed to have a good salary.

            Something like that.

            Sincerely.
        2. -1
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Kos_kalinki9
          Now they don’t go to WORK, but they go to EARN.


          Have you ever read the article carefully? MONEY DOES NOT GIVE here the main idea, as they did not give before, and now they do not. And when the real salary is 10-15 thousand, then the question about EARNINGS is very appropriate, so do not drive uncle ...
      3. 0
        August 16 2015
        Quote: SSI
        Previously, the country was different ... And people are different. Who will work overtime today, for the same salary ???

        In vain, you don’t know how you worked at the Kazan Aircraft Plant, but as for the Kuznetsov plant, judging by the words of a relative who works there, the revival of the production of NK-32 engines is in full swing, the question is when, the answer is coming soon. Recently, the plant purchased modern machines, now they are raising documentation in order to create a production line, management is constantly adjusting it.
        1. FID
          +4
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          the revival of the production of NK-32 engines is in full swing,

          Let's count ... 18 aircraft with four engines each - 72 engines are needed for the PLG (maintaining airworthiness) of the existing Tu-160 fleet, plus spare parts ... In total, about 100 engines are needed just yesterday. And you say the revival is in full swing, it would not have gone ... The question is different, in how many years will these 100 motors be made ???
          1. +1
            August 16 2015
            Quote: SSI
            72 motors are needed for the PLG (maintaining airworthiness) of the existing Tu-160 fleet, plus spare parts ..

            The plant continuously performed maintenance of the NK-32 engines all these years, sorting engines. Another thing is that they did not build new ones. Now resume production.
            Quote: SSI
            The question is different, in how many years will these 100 motors be made ???

            On new equipment quickly.
            1. FID
              +2
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Lt. air force reserve
              The plant continuously performed maintenance of the NK-32 engines all these years, sorting engines. Another thing is that they did not build new ones. Now resume production.

              Therefore, in Engels, the motors were moved from side to side ... And comment on this:

              April 4, 2015 the governor of the Samara region held a working meeting with the executive director of Kuznetsov Nikolai Yakushin, who has been managing the company for exactly a year. The plans of Kuznetsov for the coming years include increasing production capacities, resuming work on the NK-32 engine (from 2016), and continuing work on the NK-33, both through long-term American partners and domestic customers.

              2016, I was not mistaken?
              1. -3
                August 16 2015
                Quote: SSI
                Therefore, in Engels, the motors were rearranged from side to side ...

                Are you talking about the 90s? When nothing was done ...
                Quote: SSI
                resumption of work on the NK-32 engine (from 2016),

                It was about the resumption of production. Maintenance is ongoing.
                The plant does not cope with the volume of work. That is why the plant is building a new building to increase production capacity.
                Quote: SSI
                2016, I was not mistaken?

                It’s how to get it, it’s hard to say that recently in our factories the terms have been constantly shifting.
                1. FID
                  +2
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                  You need to understand that the NK-32 engine goes on the Tu-22M3

                  You need to understand that the NK-22 motor is on the Tu-3M25, it's just for your development ...
                  1. 0
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: SSI
                    You need to understand that the NK-22 motor is on the Tu-3M25, it's just for your development ...

                    Mistaken, the plant is now servicing two types of engines (NK-25,32). What else do you want from him, it is clear that the pace is not the same.
                    1. FID
                      +2
                      August 16 2015
                      Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                      What else do you want from him, it is clear that the pace is not the same.

                      I AM? I don’t want anything from the Kuznetsov factory, nothing!
                2. +3
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                  Are you talking about the 90s? When nothing was done ...

                  Listen, dear.
                  I myself am from this very airbase in Engels. What kind of 90s are you talking about? Do you even know how many these cars were in Russia in those years? You learn - to cry. There has always been a problem with engines. An even bigger problem was the price of maintenance and repair of these engines at OAO Kuznetsov.
                  Something like that, in short.
      4. -1
        August 16 2015
        Quote: SSI
        for the same salary ???

        The machine operator at the plant of OAO Kuznetsov receives 45000 rubles a month, decent money, no need to say that the factory workers receive little now.
        1. FID
          +4
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          The machine operator at the plant of OAO Kuznetsov receives 45000 rubles a month, decent money, no need to say that the factory workers receive little now.

          And how many of them are such operators? One machine and three operators? What about other workers?
          1. 0
            August 16 2015
            Quote: SSI
            What about other workers?

            Simple locksmiths with a high discharge of 20-25 thousand receive, technologists the same. Engine fitters 60-70 thousand per month.
            1. +3
              August 16 2015
              Let them get it, we all see how they get when we buy tickets for a flight, there are so many domestic high-quality planes built by well-paid workers, that pride makes its way ... It's a pity not ours ...
        2. +4
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Lt. Air Force stock
          Quote: SSI
          for the same salary ???

          The machine operator at the plant of OAO Kuznetsov receives 45000 rubles a month, decent money, no need to say that the factory workers receive little now.


          http://www.kuznetsov-motors.ru/corporate-life/personal/jobs

          Careers

          ATTENTION! OJSC "KUZNETSOV" invites you to work in the following specialties:

          Information about personnel vacancies

          OJSC Kuznetsov

          Name of profession (specialty), position

          Qualification, rank

          Salary (income) rub.

          1

          2

          3

          Machine gunner (including students)

          4-5

          20 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Sharpener

          3

          20 000 - 25 000

          Design Engineer



          from 18 000

          Process Engineer

          1-2 cat.

          18 500 - 22 180

          Controller of machine and metalwork

          4-6

          14 -900

          Washer driver



          From 15 200

          Adjuster of automatic lines and machine tools

          4-5

          17 700 - 22 400

          Adjuster of machine tools and manipulators with PU

          4-5

          16 000 - 18 000

          PU machine operator

          3-5

          18 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Blade polisher



          from 19 000

          Glass and glass polisher

          5

          15 000 - 17 000

          Resistance welder

          3-5

          20 000

          Drill driver

          4-5

          17 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Instrumentation Fitter

          4-5

          11 800 - 16 000

          Mechanical Assembly Worker

          3-5

          19 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Toolmaker

          3-6

          16 900 - 25 000

          Repairman

          3-6

          15 000 - 22 500

          Turner

          4-6

          20 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Carousel Turner

          3-5

          20 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Turner Turner

          4

          from 18 000 (piecework payment)

          Trapper

          3

          15 000

          Transporter, loader

          3

          from 15 000

          Industrial and office cleaner



          11 400 - 13 840

          Miller

          3-6

          20 - 000 (piecework payment)

          Grinder

          4-5

          from 20 000 (piecework payment)

          Electrician for repair and maintenance of electrical equipment

          3-6

          14 200 - 23 600



          We provide: registration according to the Labor Code of the Russian Federation, stable and timely payment of wages, full social. package.



          OUR ADDRESSES:

          Samara, Zavodskoye Shosse, 29. Tel .: (846) 227-35-28, 227-38-77

          Email: [email protected]

          p. Management, st. S. Lazo, 2 "a". Tel .: (846) 998-58-14

          vintai st. Sadovaya, 13. Tel .: (846) 977-52-85


          Why something like that, not very people go to the factory, do not you think that such a salary?
        3. The comment was deleted.
    2. +5
      August 16 2015
      What if it works out. After all, how did it work before?


      Previously, it wasn’t how it turned out, but the fathers worked and created the shield of the Motherland. There was a different ideology, and now at the head of the Bucks and Dolars.
      Now they are thinking, unfortunately, not about the business but about how much they pay and who gets how much in the next department.
      I work at the factory myself, I know what I'm talking about. Management is not interested in improving efficiency, because .. it will reduce costs and the plant will receive less money from the state. But what about director bonuses? What about a daughter? daughter wants a new behu.
      Do you see few young sons and daughters in expensive cars in the city?
      Can I earn money at the age of 18 for a car costing 3-5 lyam?
      Without decisive action from above and a smart approach to personnel, these undertakings will not end in anything. Boltology
  5. +3
    August 16 2015
    Personnel hunger .. This is the main current disaster in fact! lost experience and knowledge that we were proud of! But but .. there are still people who are retired .. let them call from there. Time goes by but no one moves! frames decide everything.
    1. FID
      +5
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Nitarius
      But but .. there are still people who are retired .. let them call from there. Time goes by but no one moves! frames decide everything.

      And you try to call me ... The answer is obvious, I think ...
      1. +4
        August 16 2015
        both funny and sinful laughing crying At one enterprise, we got to the point where they went to retirees home and begged to come back! And the fact that at the age of 78 grandfather serves in the army, was urged, however, in general I am silent smile The shot is, of course, priceless, you can’t say anything, but you can give a rest too. Something like this. Now the most important thing is for the young to regain respect for work and the desire to create something with their own hands and head
      2. +1
        August 16 2015
        Quote: SSI
        And you try to call me ... The answer is obvious, I think ...

        If you are a specialist with a narrow profile that is difficult to find and offer you 100 thousand rubles a month, I doubt that you will be retired.
        1. FID
          +5
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          If you are a specialist with a narrow profile that is difficult to find and offer you 100 thousand rubles a month, I doubt that you will be retired

          Are you judging by yourself? I work, by the way - I am the chief engineer for AEER (aviation and radio-electronic equipment, if translated into Russian). And the Tu-160 is like a first love for me, but hardly ... Me Medvedev, Chubais, Yakunin and many, many other names do not impress ...
          1. 0
            August 16 2015
            Quote: SSI
            Are you judging by yourself? I work, by the way - I am the chief engineer for AEER (aviation and radio-electronic equipment, if translated into Russian). And the Tu-160 is like a first love for me, but hardly ... Me Medvedev, Chubais, Yakunin and many, many other names do not impress

            So what is the problem, is it enough for you? That is, in the event of a personnel shortage situation when the Tu-160 production resumes, will you refuse to work because of antipathy to Chubais, Medvedev, Yakunin? So you are building a plane for Russia, and not for Yakunin!
            1. FID
              +3
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Lt. air force reserve
              will you refuse to work because of antipathy to Chubais, Medvedev, Yakunin?

              I will refuse! Because of antipathy! And not only with the mentioned persons, but also ....
              1. -4
                August 16 2015
                Quote: SSI

                I will refuse! Because of antipathy! And not only with the mentioned persons, but also ....

                Well, you and the patriot turns out !!! You are cheering for a country in words, and as soon as you need to help this country, you see the leadership you don’t like.
                You are building a plane for the country, and not for Chubais or Medvedev, in case of war, these planes will protect ordinary people as well.
                Following your logic, you don’t need to join the army, because it turns out that you are serving not the country, but Chubais, Medvedev, Yakunin. The power is one today, and tomorrow the other is no reason to spit on the country's defense capability, thereby betraying it !!!!
                I had a much better opinion of you. I thought for the country you are ready for anything, but it turns out that this is not so ...
                1. FID
                  +4
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                  Well, you and the patriot turns out !!! You are cheering for a country in words, and as soon as you need to help this country, you see the leadership you don’t like.
                  You are building a plane for the country, and not for Chubais or Medvedev, in case of war, these planes will protect ordinary people as well.
                  Following your logic, you don’t need to join the army, because it turns out that you are serving not the country, but Chubais, Medvedev, Yakunin. The power is one today, and tomorrow the other is no reason to spit on the country's defense capability, thereby betraying it !!!!
                  I had a much better opinion of you. I thought for the country you are ready for anything, but it turns out that this is not so ..

                  Unlike SUCH patriots, for 25 years I have supported the airworthiness of Long and Strategic Aviation! I did not get out of business trips! And some ... will teach me! Have you served in the army? What are you doing now? What is your occupation? Maintain your defense while sitting in a very important department? For WHICH country should I work? For the one that pays me 18000 rubles of pension? And this is more than 30 years of experience in aviation! Go you young man to a famous address!
                  1. -4
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: SSI
                    For WHICH country should I work? For the one that pays me 18000 rubles of pension? And this is more than 30 years of experience in aviation! Go you young man to a famous address!

                    During World War II, people did not work for wages, but for survival. The Americans will come, the war will begin, they will poke you in the back with an automatic machine, they will kill your children and grandchildren, will you also remember about retirement? Imagine in the place of this captive your son or grandson, how do you feel?
                    Quote: SSI
                    Unlike SUCH patriots, for 25 years I have supported the airworthiness of Long and Strategic Aviation! I did not get out of business trips!

                    And now with a knife in the back is a country that needs you more than ever.
                    Quote: SSI
                    And some ... will teach me!

                    Yes, I WILL, because just because you are the boss, the truth in your face no one dares say, if the country needs you, then you need to overcome all sorts of petty grievances and help in difficult times.
                    Quote: SSI
                    Did you serve in the army?

                    It did not happen, but apparently the feeling of patriotism will be higher than yours.
                    Quote: SSI
                    What are you doing now? What is your occupation?

                    I work as an economist.
                    Quote: SSI
                    Maintain your defense while sitting in a very important department?

                    It so happened that life did not lead me to the defense industry, otherwise it would contribute to strengthening the country's defense capability.
                    1. FID
                      +4
                      August 16 2015
                      Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                      I work as an economist.

                      Here economists and will strengthen the defense. That's all, I don't communicate with you anymore! Teach others to patriotism, I advise you as a "boss"!
                      1. -5
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: SSI
                        Here economists and will strengthen the defense. That's all, I don't communicate with you anymore! Teach others to patriotism, I advise you as a "boss"!

                        Well done, continue to despise your pension of 18000 rubles, take offense at the government, think only about how much I have done for my country, and how badly this country has treated me, engage in reflexion, that’s all you can do for anything.
                        I am glad that there are few like you in the Russian defense industry, you are clearly an extra person ...
                      2. +5
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                        I am glad that there are few like you in the Russian defense industry, you are clearly an extra person ...


                        And here you-you ... "graduate" .. "military department" is really ... RUN! soldier
                      3. -3
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: ancient
                        And here you-you ... "graduate" .. "military department" is really ... RUN!

                        A hypothetical situation, imagine the revival of the Tu-160M2 production, we need specialists, they turn to the SSI, he says no, I won’t help you get along as you like, let out the planes as you want me to spit on the fact that you spend a lot of time training new employees it's your problems, me I do not like Yakunin Medvedev, etc. etc. It's about that.
                        Even if it would be about the transfer of experience, the SSI still does not agree, he hates the government, and will do so to kick it once again with his behavior.
                    2. +4
                      August 16 2015
                      Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                      It so happened that life did not lead me to the defense industry, otherwise it would contribute to strengthening the country's defense capability.


                      Yeah ... so it didn't work out for you, but ... I'll teach you "s.ts.u.k.i.n.y.kh. children" how ... to "love" the country wassat
                      So start to "teach" your idols "celestials" .. so go straight to them in "London" and "Paris" and .. start "teach" .. why are you so, so unoiled into a trench then you don't jump .. "Motherland in danger" wassat(or Cooperative "Lake" wink )
                      1. -2
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: ancient
                        Yeah ... so it didn't work out for you, but ... I'll teach you "s.ts.u.k.i.n.y.kh. children" how ... to "love" the country
                        So start to "teach" your idols "celestials" .. so go straight to them in "London" and "Paris" and .. start "teach" .. why are you so, so unoiled into a trench then you don't jump .. "Motherland in danger "(or the Cooperative of Lakes

                        This is not about that, the SSI does not share such concepts as the Country and the Homeland; you build airplanes for the Motherland, not the country, but for the SSI the Motherland and Country are synonyms. The leadership of the country can be anything, but you always need to love your homeland. Tu-160M2 is being built for the Motherland, to protect 145 million people. And for some reason, the SSI identifies the construction with Yakunin and Medvedev, as if they were asking them to build a private plane, and not a bomber for the Air Force.
                    3. +2
                      August 16 2015
                      Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                      The Americans will come, the war will begin, they will poke you in the back with an automatic machine, they will kill your children and grandchildren, will you also remember about retirement?

                      How so, and you what?
                      You will pick up the AKC and, together with the children of Medvedev, Putin, Yakunin, Sechin, Deripaska, Abramovich, Fursenko, Serdyukov, Golodtsa, Shuvalov, Dvorkovich, Rottenbergs and others on the list, "bravely" ask the lousy Yankees a grandiose thrash and break them in pieces laughing
                      Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                      It did not happen, but apparently the feeling of patriotism will be higher than yours.

                      Yes .... ahh, "economist", you offended a person, it turns out we have "fans" more abruptly than in "nezalezhnoy"
                      Zy. I have never sent anyone to an emergency, but then apparently I will have a pazzriot, you angered me "economist - pazzriot" am
                      1. -1
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        How so, and you what?
                        You will pick up the AKC and, together with the children of Medvedev, Putin, Yakunin, Sechin, Deripaska, Abramovich, Fursenko, Serdyukov, Golodtsa, Shuvalov, Dvorkovich, Rottenbergs and others on the list, "bravely" ask the lousy Yankees a grandiose thrash and break them in pieces

                        And you propose not to defend the State of Yakunin, Abramovich, Fursenko, etc. etc. and surrender the country?
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Yes .... ahh, "economist", you offended a person, it turns out we have "fans" more abruptly than in "nezalezhnoy"
                        Zy. I have never sent anyone to an emergency, but then apparently I will have a pazzriot, you angered me "economist - pazzriot"

                        I already sent the SSI, I will also send you there. Bye.
                      2. 0
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        never sent anyone to the emergency, but here apparently a pazzstriota will have to

                        This is solipsism, IMHO.
                    4. The comment was deleted.
                    5. 0
                      August 17 2015
                      Regarding the reptile in the photograph, I would love to go to him in the bayonet, bastards.
                2. +2
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: SSI
                  I will refuse! Because of antipathy! And not only with the mentioned persons, but also ....

                  The British seem to have a saying: "The sovereign is nothing, the country is everything." Maybe wisdom should be adopted? All our "sovereigns" are passing, weren't there few bastards in power at times in the Soviet Union? ..
                  To serve the country as a qualified specialist, especially not to the detriment of oneself - few people in life have such a chance. A great honor and a rare opportunity, in my opinion.
                  1. 0
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: Baikal
                    The British seem to have a saying: "The sovereign is nothing, the country is everything." Maybe wisdom should be adopted? All our "sovereigns" are passing, weren't there few bastards in power at times in the Soviet Union? ..

                    That is, due to the fact that the country has always consolidated in front of a common enemy, the collective prevailed over private Russia and is invincible to the enemy.
                    Russia will fall apart when the private begins to prevail over the collective. All this democracy is built on this principle, selfishness, "I owe nothing to anyone," my interests are above all, and so on and so forth.
                  2. FID
                    +6
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: Baikal
                    A great honor and a rare opportunity, in my opinion.

                    And I forbid anyone? And to adopt other people's wisdom ... I am old, let the young do something ... And they live by other people's wisdom ...
                    1. +4
                      August 16 2015
                      I put you + and sincerely wish you all the best and bright. I will also hope that one day you will think about more hi
                      Sincerely.
                3. +6
                  August 16 2015
                  Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                  I had a much better opinion of you. I thought for the country you are ready for anything, but it turns out that this is not so ...


                  It would be better if you left "your opinion" to yourself. soldier

                  But I thought (just kidding of course) that the country is ready for everything for me, but it turns out that this is not so .....
                  When the USSR was, yes .... even questions did not arise, but now ... you do not have time to "dodge" from .. "generosity" .. sovereigns wassat
                  1. -1
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: ancient
                    It would be better if you left "your opinion" to yourself.

                    I have the right to express any opinion that does not contradict the legislation of the Russian Federation.
                    I was raised in such a way that the needs of the country are above my own interests. And SSI hatred of Medvedev and Yakunin, blinds his eyes.
                    Quote: ancient
                    But I thought (just kidding of course) that the country is ready for everything for me, but it turns out that this is not so .....
                    When the USSR was, yes .... even questions did not arise, but now ... you do not have time to "dodge" from .. "generosity" .. sovereigns

                    You can relate to the country as you like, but everyone is obliged to love their homeland, especially the one who went to the defense industry.
                    1. +4
                      August 16 2015
                      That's just the homeland, it is necessary to write with a capital letter.
                      And SSI hatred of Medvedev and Yakunin, blinds his eyes.

                      If she did, he wouldn’t teach you mind here.
                      And it’s not for you to teach love for the country, as many people have done for the defense of the USSR and Russia. In particular, for the development of the Air Force.
                      You are trying to teach love for the motherland, a man who has risked his life for it more than once. I'm talking about Alexander (the ancient)
                      1. -1
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        And it’s not for you to teach love for the country, as many people have done for the defense of the USSR and Russia. In particular, for the development of the Air Force.

                        So I’m not trying to teach anyone, it all started with a hypothetical situation, according to which the SSI was contacted about the resumption of production of the Tu-160M2, he would be asked to take part in the program as a person who trains young specialists. He refuses. What do you call it?

                        As for the person, a person can make a huge contribution to the development of the country, but as a person, he’s not very good. An example is the designer Glushko, a specialist who made a huge contribution to rocket science, but as a person he was not very good, he constantly led undercover games.
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        That's just the homeland, it is necessary to write with a capital letter.

                        Now, according to the rules of the Russian language, it is not always capitalized.
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        You are trying to teach love for the motherland, a man who has risked his life for it more than once. I'm talking about Alexander (the ancient)

                        It is he who is trying to teach me not love for the motherland, he is also mocking me by calling him a patriot. A man who risked his life will not speak so dismissively of patriotism.
                      2. +6
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                        It is he who is trying to teach me not love for the motherland, he is also mocking me by calling him a patriot.

                        but as you please call?
                        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                        A man who risked his life will not speak so dismissively of patriotism.

                        You are still a very young man and nevermind in patriotism. Your statements are false patriotism, inspired by duroscop propaganda ...
                        Remember for yourself, the homeland and the state are different concepts.
                        I’ll add on my own that I love my homeland, but the current state education of the Russian Federation does not mean anything to me, my family and my children!
                        PS. so that there are no unnecessary questions, I will say right away that I was "beyond the river" for a year and a half (if this at all tells you anything) soldier
                      3. -1
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Remember for yourself, the homeland and the state are different concepts.
                        I’ll add on my own that I love my homeland, but the current state education of the Russian Federation does not mean anything to me, my family and my children!

                        You directly copied my quote, I wrote about it below on the page. And the esteemed SSI, says that he would not go to revive the production of the Tu-160M2 in one capacity or another because he hates Yakunin Medvedev, etc. etc. Actually confused concept of the State and the Homeland. His hatred of the State extends to his homeland, and I have been talking about this all day.
                        Do you agree that this is not right?
                      4. +4
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                        His hatred of the State extends to his homeland, and I have been talking about this all day.

                        You don’t understand anything ... request
                        Sadness ....
                        And with Sergey Ivanovich I completely agree, I share his point of view and would do exactly the same! hi
                      5. -1
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        And with Sergey Ivanovich I completely agree, I share his point of view and would do exactly the same!

                        Are you talking about SSI? That's right, let the state train specialists to produce Tu-160M2 from scratch. Why should he help with this by transferring experience? Let the deadlines for 3-5 years move because we do not give a damn about the defense capability of the state, I understand you correctly?
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. +3
                        August 16 2015
                        It is he who is trying to teach me not love for the motherland, he is also mocking me by calling him a patriot. A man who risked his life will not speak so dismissively of patriotism.

                        Patriotism is not a blind admiration for everything domestic, just because it is domestic. And a critical view of reality is in this case a greater manifestation of patriotism than your abstract reasoning about certain hypothetical situations.
                        Do you know what the person you accuse of lack of patriotism did? If not, then there is no need to build your hypotheses. If you read his messages, you will find that his work experience is age-appropriate. Have you been taught at the military department in what cases does this happen? When a year goes by two, when a year goes by three ???
                        And about the Motherland with a small letter ... it strongly resembles an anecdote about one nation, which write the word "lard" with a capital letter, and Motherland with a small letter.
                        By the way, according to what rules of the Russian language is the word Homeland spelled in small letters? All my life I thought that with a big one. And somehow for a patriot it’s not a camilleph to write the Motherland with a small letter.
                        also mocks calling Ura-patriot.

                        This is not a mockery, but a statement of fact.
                      8. -2
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        Patriotism is not a blind admiration for everything domestic, just because it is domestic. And a critical view of reality is in this case a greater manifestation of patriotism than your abstract reasoning about certain hypothetical situations.
                        Do you know what the person you accuse of lack of patriotism did? If not, then there is no need to build your hypotheses. If you read his messages, you will find that his work experience is age-appropriate. Have you been taught at the military department in what cases does this happen? When a year goes by two, when a year goes by three ???

                        I’ll write 100500 times. Initially, whom I called not a patriot? SSI. Why did I call him that?
                        To the question in the case of the resumption of production of the Tu-160M2 (he is like a specialist who previously participated in the construction). If he is asked to return to the production of the Tu-160M2 in one capacity or another (to train young people for example), is he ready to do this?
                        He replies that no, because he does not like Yakunin and Medvedev. That is, in fact, a person is ready to insert sticks into the wheels of the defense complex without wanting to help. Tu-160 has not been mass-produced for a long time, experts all who retired, who died, who went to other places to work. The state can train personnel from scratch, but it will take more time, ideally, a person who previously participated in their construction could pass on the experience to young specialists and reduce the time to restore production.

                        How to name a person? Patriot? Hooray Patriot? Do not care? What do you call him? I ask you?
                        It all started with this, the rest is speculation, speculation and sophistry.
                      9. +5
                        August 16 2015
                        That is, in fact, a person is ready to insert sticks into the wheels of the defense complex without wanting to help.

                        You have some kind of cognitive dissonance. If a person does not want to work on the renewed (hypothetically) production of the Tu-160, then he inserts the sticks into the wheels of the defense. Actually, where, by whom, and how much work is Sergey Ivanovich’s personal affair.
                        How to name a person? Patriot? Hooray Patriot? Do not care? What do you call him? I ask you?
                        It all started with this, the rest is speculation, speculation and sophistry.

                        And with what a fig, you start to label Sergey Ivanovich? Who are you? Themselves in the defense industry do not work, while others mean ahead, because they have experience. Or can one gain experience?
                        So it is you, excuse me, engaged in speculation.
                        Have you done anything to develop the defense industry? No? Then why do you arrogate to yourself the right to condemn those who have worked there for decades?
                      10. -1
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        You have some kind of cognitive dissonance. If a person does not want to work on the renewed (hypothetically) production of the Tu-160, then he inserts the sticks into the wheels of the defense. Actually, where, by whom, and how much work is Sergey Ivanovich’s personal affair.

                        The fact of the matter is that he does not want to help, one such Sergey Ivanovich does not want to help, the other does not want to help, the third died, the fourth left for the USA to work. Hello the first Tu-160M2 in 2030 (about the term I’m exaggerating). Do you think the defense will not suffer?

                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        And with what a fig, you start to label Sergey Ivanovich? Who are you? Themselves in the defense industry do not work, while others mean ahead, because they have experience. Or can one gain experience?
                        So it is you, excuse me, engaged in speculation.

                        Sergey Ivanovich took part in the construction of the original Tu-160, he knows what’s happening with both Sergey Ivanovich and his ilk (those who used to take part in the production of the Tu-160), things will go faster because for them it’s their own plane, and the young specialist will look at the drawings of the Tu-160 as a new gate, and for a long time to understand them.
                        Does Sergei Ivanovich really not understand this?
                        I have the right to condemn him, because it is a question of the country's defense capability, I am interested as a citizen of the country to ensure that everything is done as quickly as possible, and not stop on youth training.
                      11. +2
                        August 16 2015
                        Sergey Ivanovich took part in the construction of the original Tu-160, he knows what’s happening with both Sergey Ivanovich and his ilk (those who used to take part in the production of the Tu-160), things will go faster because for them it’s their own plane, and the young specialist will look at the drawings of the Tu-160 as a new gate, and for a long time to understand them.
                        Does Sergei Ivanovich really not understand this?

                        And what about what he took? This does not impose any obligations on him at present.
                      12. -1
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        And what about what he took? This does not impose any obligations on him at present.

                        He himself must impose moral duties on himself.
                      13. +3
                        August 16 2015
                        I have the right to condemn him, because it is a question of the country's defense capability, I am interested as a citizen of the country to ensure that everything is done as quickly as possible, and not stop on youth training.

                        Where do you work yourself, a "citizen of the country"? How do you strengthen the country's defense? If you are interested in the development of the defense industry, the flag is in your hands ... go to the military-industrial complex and work.
                        And perhaps you would have the right to condemn if you had done something in this area comparable to what Sergey Ivanovich did.
                      14. 0
                        August 16 2015
                        Quote: Alexander1959
                        If you are interested in the development of the defense industry, hold the flag in your hands ..... go to the enterprise of the military industrial complex and work.

                        Speech about the specific case of the Tu-160M2, how will the fact that I go to get a higher technical education help with the timing of the delivery of the Tu-160M2 to the troops? But Sergei Ivanovich can help. But in every topic about the Tu-160 he says that "The truncate is gone." In short, Sergei Ivanovich offers to surrender.
                      15. 0
                        August 17 2015
                        You still do not understand the main thing, why this bunch of leaders needed carcasses, to protect their own, gas and oil pipes! And for the people, they do not care, they only care about their pockets. And Sergey Ivanovich is right to help such people, do not respect yourself! So do not confuse the country and the homeland! When, in the event of war, these rulers flee to the west, where they have families and children, then, the country, the Motherland will replace the country, and that’s all, they will tear with their teeth those who encroach on the Motherland!
                      16. 0
                        August 17 2015
                        Quote: Silence
                        then, the country will come to replace the Motherland, and that’s it, with their teeth they will begin to tear those who encroach on the Motherland

                        Only then will it be too late to save the Motherland. The war is lightning in our time. I am afraid that in the event of such a scenario, Russia will be completely destroyed. Because of antipathy, people who do not want to help their homeland will now lead the country to the point that there will be nothing to answer the country for external aggression.
                        We have been fed with promises for about 10 years now that production will begin to improve, and here they will begin to build submarines, aircraft, etc., etc., at the Soviet pace. And nothing has changed.
                      17. -1
                        August 18 2015
                        May there be no lightning war, no one needs atomic deserts! Not for nothing the Americans are planning to create 7000 cruise missiles with a simple explosive. And our rulers will not have enough courage to press the red button, because they have families and children there, and all their real estate! So, you have to fight with what you have. And the fact that we are being fed with promises for 20 years, it’s time to get used to it, with what pomp they handed over one submarine, and the Americans, during this time, riveted 19 Virginias. So, all that remains is to tear the foe with his teeth, or, as in the system, with a sapper shovel! They will not give us weapons, in order to avoid the overthrow of this power! And you think it's nice when this native government, like a kitten, takes you by the collar, and throws you out of the enterprise, because you are no longer needed! Or an engineer who has been engaged in missile guidance units all his life is put to sharpen needles for disposable syringes! And after spitting in people's souls, come back? Well sorry!
            2. +1
              August 16 2015
              And if you get paid 100 - 120 thousand, you refuse, provided that if the project fails you will be put in prison?
              1. FID
                +3
                August 16 2015
                Quote: IAlex
                And if you get paid 100 - 120 thousand, you refuse, provided that if the project fails you will be put in prison?

                If this is you to me, then yes, I will refuse ...
                1. +4
                  August 16 2015
                  This is not for me, but for the patriot who believes that he will sit in his chair for normal grandmothers, and there mythical creatures should do everything normally ...
                  1. -2
                    August 16 2015
                    Quote: IAlex
                    This is not for me, but for the patriot who believes that he will sit in his chair for normal grandmothers, and there mythical creatures should do everything normally ...

                    Nobody sets such conditions to anyone, it is only Lukashenka in Belarus who says on TV, "if you fail, we will put you in prison." We have not had a single case when someone was imprisoned for the failure of a project. And for what article? Negligence or what?
              2. +1
                August 16 2015
                Quote: IAlex
                100 - 120 thousand you refuse, provided that if the project fails you will be imprisoned?

                Under such conditions, they would go through the forest)))) That Medvedev is not planting for much greater failures with much larger money. and does not even fire))))
            3. +4
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Lt. air force reserve
              So you are building a plane for Russia, and not for Yakunin!


              Drawn on slogans? So they are completely ... fake !!! soldier
              1. -1
                August 16 2015
                Quote: ancient
                Drawn on slogans? So they are completely ... fake !!!

                It initially came about whether the SSI is ready in case of difficulties with the resumption of production of the Tu-160M2 to return and help (at least for the transfer of experience). He said that he was not ready because he had a poor attitude towards the country's leadership, but did he not understand the importance of the Tu-160M2 program for the country's defense capability.
                This is not a polemic for the sake of polemic, I do not understand such people. And you apparently do not understand any arguments, words or logic.
          2. -4
            August 16 2015
            Quote: SSI
            Me Medvedev, Chubais, Yakunin and many, many other names do not impress ...


            Can't you see the difference between Chubais, Medvedev, on the one hand, and Yakunin, on the other?
            What, specifically, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees:
            Yakunin Vladimir Ivanovich did not please you ?!
            http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/441404.html
            Maybe that sponsors the activities of this Fund? Or the fact that they award outstanding people of Russia? But can we, because he regularly delivers the Holy Fire from Jerusalem to Russia, builds temples, monasteries, and almshouses? Can you be annoyed that Yakunin has successfully led Russian Railways since June 14, 2005?
            Are you a supporter of Gleb Yakunin?
            1. FID
              +4
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Bison
              Are you a supporter of Gleb Yakunin?

              I am a communist, member of the CPSU!
              1. +1
                August 16 2015
                Quote: SSI
                I am a communist, member of the CPSU!

                Thank you for your firm and active life position!
                Absolutely agree.
                Sincerely soldier
            2. +8
              August 16 2015


              Quote: Bison
              Can't you see the difference between Chubais, Medvedev, on the one hand, and Yakunin, on the other?


              it’s unlikely that this official knew sympathy for his people, everyone who is on top is not our people-grabbers, you need a design engineer on Kuznetsovo gets 20 thousand / month, and this 2 limons a day, these are shameless people, on the contrary, how can that 160 soar if all money in the country goes to the oligarchs and officials?
            3. +9
              August 16 2015
              I explain that Yakunin didn’t please me personally:
              1. Traveling 156 km in two directions costs 500 rubles
              2. Eliminated dofiga trains and routes
              3. Cattle service level
              4. People are immeasurable.
              5. Sartirs do not work and they are not there
              6. Trains are old, rusty and worn
              -------------- Railway Software ---------------------
              7. Salaries on railway miserable
              8. Rolling stock is a rarity.
              9. Instead of domestic trains with pullbacks in three roads imported buys
              10. I co-created the PTC through which money washes and regional budgets are washed
              11. Sold all profitable assets to his people.
              12. Sells the territory of railway to his sons.
              13. Constantly demands loot from the federal budget for his fur store ...
              14. Without working as an employee of the railway, without understanding anything in the rolling stock, he received an honorary railwayman award ...

              There is much more to remember ...
              I can go through everything else if you want ...
              1. +3
                August 16 2015
                Quote: IAlex
                There is much more to remember ...
                I can go through everything else if you want ...

            4. +4
              August 16 2015
              Can you be annoyed that Yakunin has successfully led Russian Railways since June 14, 2005?
              -I didn’t want to write, but you make it. This is where you saw success? the only transport manager who does not have a railway education and has not completed any positions in transport.
              1. 0
                August 17 2015
                Well, why the only one? Kiriyenko, here, destroyed and sold part by part the plant where he worked. Then Kinder-Surprise got to steer the government, after - on "Aerostar" (Ulyanovsk), and even later - began to lead "Minatom".
                Chubais was a zablub, now - a nano-generator ...
                By the way, do not remember what kind of education Mikoyan had? - Take an interest!
                Ultimately, the point is not so much in education as in the ability to learn and the natural mind.
                And with this, Yakunin is all right. And most importantly - he is not a thief.
            5. 0
              August 17 2015
              Quote: Bison
              Can't you see the difference between Chubais, Medvedev, on the one hand, and Yakunin, on the other?
              What, specifically, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees:
              Yakunin Vladimir Ivanovich did not please you ?!
              http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/441404.html
              Maybe that sponsors the activities of this Fund? Or the fact that they award outstanding people of Russia? But can we, because he regularly delivers the Holy Fire from Jerusalem to Russia, builds temples, monasteries, and almshouses? Can you be annoyed that Yakunin has successfully led Russian Railways since June 14, 2005?
              Are you a supporter of Gleb Yakunin?

              Facts about Yakunin: https://slon.ru/posts/55231
        2. +4
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          If you are a specialist with a narrow profile that is difficult to find and offer you 100 thousand rubles a month, I doubt that you will be retired.


          I will answer for myself .. I was offered 5 times more and this is a purely "naked" salary ..... I arrived, looked and .. refused! soldier (and the enterprise MIC wink )
          1. 0
            August 16 2015
            Quote: ancient
            I will answer for myself .. I was offered 5 times more and this is a purely "naked" salary ..... I arrived, looked and .. refused! (and the military-industrial complex

            And why, if not a secret? If there is a large amount of work, then anyway, someone will have to do it anyway. It’s understandable that it’s difficult to destroy, it’s hard, but we have no choice but to develop production destroyed in the 90s. Quitting is simply not an option, we are not a country like Germany or France, which can score on its military-industrial complex and buy weapons in the United States, for example, we need everything ours.
    2. +1
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Nitarius
      Personnel hunger .. This is the main current disaster in fact! lost experience and knowledge that we were proud of! But but .. there are still people who are retired .. let them call from there. Time goes by but no one moves! frames decide everything

      Experience is not lost. It just was not passed on. This is called the lack of continuity of generations. - The old people are gone, but the young ones are few, their qualifications are lower (low competition when entering technical universities affects!) They did not work fully loaded - that’s the result.
      1. -5
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Bison
        e (low competition for admission to technical universities affects!)

        Competition in technical universities is not low, but very high (250+ points in the USE), a paid department in the regions costs about 150 thousand rubles a year (in Moscow it’s more expensive).
      2. 0
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Bison
        lack of continuity

        Vooot, speak the truth, your golden words! This is the most valuable thing from fathers to children. So everything should be. Educational moment he is the most difficult and most important
  6. -10
    August 16 2015
    It is very similar to the cured polymers ... If a decision is made to resume production, then there are already the necessary human and material resources, IMHO
    1. FID
      +5
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Rebus
      It is very similar to the cured polymers ... If a decision is made to resume production, then there are already the necessary human and material resources, IMHO

      And where are they ??? People and resources ???
      1. -4
        August 16 2015
        Does it mean "spilling all the polymers"?
        1. FID
          +8
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Rebus
          Does it mean "spilling all the polymers"?

          And what do you think? Here, again the helicopter crashed ... Why? Don't you think that lately there have been a lot of air accidents with both military and civilian aircraft?
          1. +3
            August 16 2015
            Quote: Rebus
            It is very similar to the cured polymers ... If a decision is made to resume production, then there are already the necessary human and material resources, IMHO

            Quote: Rebus
            Does it mean "spilling all the polymers"?


            Oh, the Urikalkins woke up ...
            1. +5
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Marxist
              Oh, the Urikalkins woke up ...

              They didn’t fall asleep, they’ve been keen on everything for 15 years laughing
      2. +2
        August 17 2015
        Quote: SSI
        And where are they ??? People and resources ???

        Sergey Ivanovich, for the sake of justice I must say that the 90 and Serdyukovaya politics with the dissolution of academies, schools and institutes with a military profile and the thirst for youth to get more with a minimum of body movements come to us and are proud and cherished for the Motherland from afar, with big eyes looking at Signs of banks with currency exchange.
        Of course, there are patriots and enthusiasts, but they are not allowed to "breathe", lobbying the ossified grandees, who are increasingly switching to commerce, and not to serving the Motherland, for which they once worked and created.
        But the traders, in which young people are turning, and the older ones are often comrades, are not able to do anything creative, except to make the people out of thin air and richer themselves.
        Zadornov is right in saying that managers and supervisors have divorced lawyers for whom the law that draws, darkness, and a simple turner or milling machine can not be breathed in the afternoon with fire.
        Because of these KOEKAKERs, pensioners are now summoned from a well-deserved rest who without the Bahamas and Mercedes built the shield and sword of the country, and not for salaries in 200 000, but for 200-300 rubles.
        Forgive me for my impulsiveness, but when people do not understand what it means to WORK FOR an idea, burning with true patriotism and the desire to make the country stronger and safer, they explain to the "old people" what Motherland, patriotism, tribute to the people is, it does not just outrage me, but makes me angry ...
        And such unfortunate patriots would get to know how Korolev, Yangel, Chelomei worked, without days off and holidays, without a barrel of oil and the dollar, without the Bahamas and overseas status machines, without corporate options to a piggy squeal and without saunas with girls of facilitated behavior.
        But apparently they will not understand me or you. We have had a different language for 20 for years.
        Sincerely. hi
        1. +4
          August 17 2015
          Quote: NEXUS
          Forgive me for impulsiveness, but when people do not understand what it means to work hard for an idea

          You won’t go to the store with the idea and you won’t buy bread
          Quote: NEXUS
          True patriotism and the desire to make the country stronger and safer

          Why should the Motherland, just like not think about the strength and security (including financial) of its citizens.
          And anyway, why should patriotism be hungry and with torn pants?
          Quote: NEXUS
          And to such unfortunate patriots, to get to know how Korolev, Yangel, Chelomei worked, without days off and holidays,

          Well, in general, if you take specific (the people you named), then they were not financially offended, like the defense complex workers who lived an order of magnitude better than ordinary hard workers

          Quote: NEXUS
          without a barrel of oil and the dollar, without the Bahamas and the status of overseas cars, without corporate loans to a piggy squeal and without saunas with girls of facilitated behavior.

          It's easy to talk when no one has had it.
          And now ? Can you take it away from others, or give the defenders a car, an apartment, a kindergarten and a good school? Or a salary with which he will do it to himself?
          And if you can’t, then don’t expect someone to come to you.
          REALLY look at things. If the seller in the stall receives more than a scientist, then the scientist is not so stupid that he would be killed during these days without holidays and weekends, and even in some kind of closed city, without the right to go abroad hi
  7. +2
    August 16 2015
    Hope for the best, get ready for the worst. Based on this wisdom, it is NECESSARY to produce such aircraft. Regardless of any expenses and overcoming difficulties. Otherwise, one day you will wake up from a flash on the right, but you can not wake up at all.
  8. -24
    August 16 2015
    We started talking about the resumption of that 160))) ha-ha-ha, hundreds of flying "saucers" such as UFOs have already been released, and you are all fed with these old lomachin so that you think that there is no progress, everything stands still. The Americans have already built several bases on the Moon, water was found at a depth of 600 meters, in the near future mass mining for the needs of the Lunar program will begin, and everyone is telling you that the Luna program is far from its implementation))). BE AWESOME you are being held for idiots and are just lying in the dark. Start thinking and look around, what technologies are breaking through, but they (in the sense of the military) cannot do anything new ??? Yes, everything has already been done, but classified. The Americans built the bases back in 2010-12 on the Moon. The mass of UFOs that flies in the sky in 80% of cases was made by our Earth designers. Wake up everyone, governments are fooling you, take noodles off your ears and search facts. Information is given for the direction of the search.
    1. +8
      August 16 2015
      prav - pzhsta a link about NASA’s current BASES on the Moon ... I’m waiting at the screen.
      1. +6
        August 16 2015
        Or maybe he is from parallel reality ... laughing
        1. +1
          August 16 2015
          prav - blinkinton, I'm waiting for the coordinates of the lunar bases ..., otherwise your statement has rational grains, although somewhat controversial.
          1. +2
            August 16 2015
            Quote: prav
            REMEMBER you are held for idiots and lie just black. The Americans built the bases back in the 2010-12 year on the Moon. That mass of UFOs that fly in the sky in 80% of the cases was made by our Earth designers. Wake up all, you are being fooled by the government, take off your ears and search for facts ....... .....
        2. +4
          August 16 2015
          prav-if there is no link about the active bases on the moon, please give me at least a direction to search laughing recourse
          1. +3
            August 17 2015
            Quote: Kos_kalinki9
            .... give pzhlst at least a direction to search

            Usually she is in the sky ... the moon laughing
        3. +3
          August 16 2015
          prav has already appeared in one very famous movie laughing
        4. The comment was deleted.
      2. avt
        +9
        August 16 2015
        Quote: prav
        The Americans have already built several bases on the Moon, water was found at a depth of 600 meters, in the near future mass mining of minerals for the needs of the Lunar Program will begin,
        fool Summer, the weather is good, turn off the computer and go for a walk in the fresh air for at least two hours - let it go, especially outside the city in the forest and even by the river.
        Quote: viktor_ui
        prav - pzhsta a link about NASA’s current BASES on the Moon ... I’m waiting at the screen.
        Use a search engine and find the Finnish film "Iron Sky", based on real facts " laughing laughingThey have already posted the trizers of Iron Sky 2 on YouTube - I recommend them as Memories of the Future, especially Dance Vladimir good laughing
    2. +7
      August 16 2015
      Woke up, dear, woke up already. They smoked a couple with you and fell asleep again. Woke up. Have a smoke. Look at the moon - the base in place. Have a smoke. Fell asleep.
      1. +5
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Absurdidat
        Woke up, dear, woke up already. They smoked a couple with you and fell asleep again. Woke up. Have a smoke. Look at the moon - the base in place. Have a smoke. Fell asleep.

        Do you see a gopher?
        No
        And I am not, but he is.
      2. +3
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Absurdidat
        They smoked a couple with you and fell asleep again. Woke up. Have a smoke. Look at the moon - the base in place. Have a smoke. Fell asleep.

        Absurdidat! ! ! Exhale-ah-ah! ! ! Exhale urgently! ! ! laughing wassat
    3. +3
      August 16 2015
      already burst into tears of laughter laughing laughing crying Are you from the future? which model of your time machine, otherwise my type only spoils the current for 5 minutes laughing and then in the case of extraordinary situations, such as a broken plate or a dog puddle. laughing
    4. +2
      August 16 2015
      No one will put mattress covers on the moon, but will not understand it in a good way, they will explain it differently. They again turned off their next lunar program.
      If you are interested in this subject, look at the documentary.
      http://dokonline.com/dokumentalnie-filmi/25735-dokumentalnyy-proekt-lunnye-doroz
      hki.html
      I think you will like it.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. +2
      August 16 2015
      quickly removed until the World Backstage sweep team left for you
      1. +2
        August 16 2015
        Put foil bags on everyone’s heads immediately, our mind is in danger.
    7. +4
      August 16 2015
      Quote: prav
      We started talking about the resumption of that 160))) ha-ha-ha, hundreds of flying "saucers" such as UFOs have already been released, and you are all fed with these old lomachin so that you think that there is no progress, everything stands still. The Americans have already built several bases on the moon, water was found at a depth of 600 meters. ... ...


      Quote: prav
      .Base Americans built back in 2010-12 on the Moon. That mass of UFOs that fly in the sky in 80% of cases was made by our Earth designers

      Dear "prav"! Watching TV is very harmful for a fragile young psyche, especially REN-TV and TV-3, since Igor Prozombenko is an alien and reptilian. He will proextrass you and this will cause loss of chakra, regrowth of the mental tail and you will fall into Atsral, where you will be crushed by a meteorite from Mars. Better to watch a refrigerator or a fan, it will be more intact. You can also recommend, among other things, rereading textbooks on natural sciences for a high school course, preferably a Soviet edition, I personally trust them.
      After this course of treatment, mental health, as a rule, is restored and the person ceases to be afraid of the dark and the devils. laughing
      At worst, you can go to church, it helps some.
      PS:
      If the United States and the West possessed such technologies, then believe me, they would have applied them without hesitation, as happened with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Remember how Magellan died in the Philippines, deciding to show the natives the power of European weapons by intervening in the quarrels of local kings. And what were the "well-behaved" Europeans doing in Africa and the Americas?
      Do not watch TV or read modern newspapers - you will be in good health. hi
      1. +3
        August 16 2015
        Quote: villain
        Dear "prav"! Watching TV is very harmful for a fragile young psyche, especially REN-TV and TV-3, since Igor Prozombenko is an alien and

        As for Ren TV, it’s only like that in the years 90-91 that we very often had to deal with UFOs from balls to such as the Belgian triangle, and this happened over the territory of the village where I lived, up to the point where they found the balls a triangular well and some kind of strange garbage that looked like a thermostat and a battery inside was like a spring, so the guy decided to hit it on the ground and this garbage just really jumped on the ground and disappeared when they came to that place then they saw this triangular well where this garbage and fell. And what happened to the Chelyabinsk meteorite, I think everyone saw it themselves. Yes, and the moon really has a lot of oddities.
        1. +1
          August 16 2015
          Quote: activator
          in the place where the balls went down, they found a triangular well and some strange garbage that looked like a thermostat and the battery inside was like a spring, so the guy decided to hit it on the ground and this garbage just really jumped on the ground and disappeared when they came to that place then and saw this triangular well where this bullshit fell

          I don’t think it has anything to do with the "GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS" of American science or "British scientists". If another mind exists, then THERE are not such fools as to give this knowledge to exceptional monkeys from the USA. Hiroshima from Nagasaki is enough for us. By the way, why is the world community silent?
          PS: I saw something with my own eyes, but I don’t like talking about this topic, there are reasons for this. As for TV, they simply brazenly speculate on this topic, without serious evidence. And in general: in the framework of Prokopenko’s programs and various talk shows, it is impossible to fully disclose such a topic and even more so to analyze in detail at least some case involving real specialists, and not beet growers such as Yu. Senkin. He, of course, is an enthusiast and makes good money on it, but listening to such nonsense is beyond my power. One word - talk shows, that is a booth.
      2. 0
        August 16 2015
        Well, you're a comedian, they made you laugh wassat
        1. +1
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Igor K
          Well, you're a comedian, they made you laugh wassat

          And what’s funny is that at that time we had no cameras or mobile phones to shoot, but the Chelyabinsk meteorite has a video if you didn’t see it, look and say that it is [media = http: // https: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = F5O4oo1KgBo]
          1. 0
            August 16 2015
            Sorry did not write to you.
        2. 0
          August 16 2015
          This is not for you, comments are published scattered, not like you write, absurdity.
          1. 0
            August 16 2015
            Quote: Igor K
            This is not for you, comments are published scattered, not like you write, absurdity.

            Well, yes, there is such a thing, so in answers I always use the "quote" function hi
    8. +1
      August 16 2015
      Do not smoke this rubbish anymore, I beg you.
  9. 0
    August 16 2015
    Yes, there are problems with personnel and resources. But there are no less problems with IL-476. But things got off the ground. They began to build the aircraft. I’m sure there will be money for the revival of the TU-160, only in what volume, or for 50 cars, or maybe 10 ...
    1. FID
      +4
      August 16 2015
      Quote: uncle earring
      or 10.

      Or one ... Do not forget that Aviastar was not burdened with GOZ, so there were free human resources ...
    2. +1
      August 16 2015
      STRONGLY !! One did two years. the next one at the same pace. Now they promise to do it quickly. At this speed, the plane will be really expensive.
  10. +5
    August 16 2015
    If you listen to Bondarev, then the roof can be torn down from his statements. Today he says one thing, and tomorrow on the same subject - quite another.
    The author of the article is well done. Everything is as it is in the article, and this is serious. To resume the production of an essentially old aircraft is more expensive for itself, it will be gold. Although, under a certain set of circumstances, after titanic efforts this is possible.
    Question - which regiments is Bondarev going to equip with these airplanes? 50 planes is not a joke, these are three regiments. Change Tu-95MS? Then why the idea with PAK YES? After all, if they switch to TU-160M2, and PAK YES immediately goes, then this idea will turn out to be too stupid and VERY expensive.
    On the flight range of the Tu-160, the author correctly drew attention in the article. This is a big problem for the "world's fastest" bomber. You can state the characteristics beautiful, but in practice it turns out very ugly. And I'm not at all sure that this problem can be solved by upgrading the existing engine. The plane came out as the largest bomber because of its gluttony. Moreover, the fuel has to be bubbled to increase the heat capacity. A very expensive toy to maintain.
    1. FID
      +8
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Iline
      On the flight range of the Tu-160, the author correctly drew attention in the article. This is a big problem for the "world's fastest" bomber.

      Flight to Venezuela ... Refueling over our territory (IL-78 will not reach further ...) Weight and dimensions in bomb bays ... On the map, estimate, if not difficult, and then you can scold "the fastest".
      1. +5
        August 16 2015
        I personally participated in the preparation of this flight. and they took off from Olenegorsk, and refuel in the Atlantic, and not over our territory. Tu-95MS hung as repeaters for them in neutral waters (their long-distance communications were in short supply). Yes, and flew on cruising mode, God forbid it was to switch to supersonic - then it would certainly not have flown. And on the map, it’s not so far for a one-way flight for any strategist.
        Two cargo bays on the one hand are good, but it’s bad luck - if they are fully loaded, the flight range drops sharply.
        1. FID
          +4
          August 16 2015
          Quote: Iline
          Yes, and flew on cruising mode, God forbid it was to switch to supersonic - then it would certainly not have flown.

          Well, this is their normal flight profile. Supersound only for a while ... But nevertheless, from Olenaya to Venezuela almost 10 km, and maybe more, taking into account the overflights of the territorial waters of Norway, Iceland, etc.
          1. +8
            August 16 2015
            Somewhere like that. It is only necessary to spread such concepts as the maximum ferry range of the aircraft and the combat radius of the aircraft. Very different concepts and numbers.
            By the way, in 1992 and 1994 they flew 95AK SAC from Anadyr to Barksdale (Louisiana). And nothing - without any refueling, only the fuel remained on the landing - tears. I know for sure - he flew. And the distances are comparable.
            1. FID
              +3
              August 16 2015
              Quote: Iline
              Somewhere like that. It is only necessary to spread such concepts as the maximum ferry range of the aircraft and the combat radius of the aircraft. Very different concepts and numbers

              About 25 years in Dalnaya I worked with strategists ...
    2. +1
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Iline
      After all, if they switch to TU-160M2, and PAK YES goes right away, then this idea will come out too stupid and VERY expensive.

      But what if PAK YES doesn’t go anywhere, like the latest development of the Mikoyan Design Bureau or the penultimate Design Bureau of Sukhoi?
      What then?!
      1. +2
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Bison
        But what if PAK YES doesn't go anywhere,

        What if it goes? What then? Tu-160M2 to the dump?
        The fact that it is necessary to change our strategists taking into account modern realities and technologies, this should not be discussed at all. It is necessary to work in this direction.
    3. -1
      August 16 2015
      There is one indispensable rule !! It always punishes those who violate it. That is why they started singing about the TU-160, probably the new aircraft will have transitional technologies with PAK DA. With the T-50 it’s the same thing. They explained to Mr. Bondaryov that the SU-35 has transitional technologies. Therefore, two cars will be assembled in parallel. And the main thing here is the cheapening of these two devices. It is not for nothing that the Swan should be built using new technology. So technology will be transitional.
  11. +4
    August 16 2015
    The article is written with knowledge of what is happening in the aircraft industry in general and in the Tupolev Design Bureau in particular. For me, their general state of affairs was not very surprising. And what will the authorities do to meet deadlines is a question for me. Rather, as always, push the timeline and feed breakfast. Well, the problem with the frames, I know by hearsay.
  12. +7
    August 16 2015
    Equipment ... materials ... technology ... without specialists, this is an empty phrase.
    Life ... and a decade later ... FRAMES RESOLVE EVERYTHING.
    Over the years, what has been called continuity of generations has been lost ... among designers ... technologists ... workers.
    When, from year to year, the subtleties of the craft were passed on from generation to generation.
    Now everything is ruined.
    It will take not a single year for this generation to gain its experience.
    1. +4
      August 16 2015
      Not just lost, but purposefully destroyed in the 90s under the wise leadership of Yeltsin. Stake him in the ass, an alcoholic.
      1. +4
        August 16 2015
        Yeltsin is an alcoholic - that’s understandable. What is happening with education now, you are in the know. The introduction of the Bologna education system with the Unified State Exam finally debilitates young people.
  13. +4
    August 16 2015
    Great article, thanks to the author!
  14. +2
    August 16 2015
    After reading this article, it became a shame and I thought. It seemed to me that in modern conditions the restoration of Tu-160 production is comparable to the work on the creation of the TU-4, when entire branches of production in the country were born “from scratch” and then there were about 170 of them. In the late 40s, the problem of the presence of a carrier in the USSR nuclear weapons and delivering them to the target was very acute, but today it can be successfully solved without a long-range bomber, no matter how good its flight performance. Do you need this particular bomber or another, completely new? What will be more expensive - to revive or rebuild? I think that these thoughts were visited by other commentators. Rogozin is just busy daily creating the very “groundwork” for fulfilling the State Defense Order. He does not complain, does not write articles, but specifically restores the very “backlog” that “liberal politicians”, all kinds of “business executives”, “agents of influence” and so on. thieves collapsed.
    I think that in the next five years the production of Tu-160 in the country is unlikely to be restored. It’s good if they can fix and modernize at least 3-5 cars a year so as not to “lose” long-range aviation at all.
    Bondarev knew and kept quiet about the situation with long-range aviation five and ten years ago. Inaction of the authorities is also a crime. Now he is the commander of the VKS. I’m afraid that he would ruin these VKS.
    1. FID
      +3
      August 16 2015
      Quote: rubin6286
      I think that in the next five years the production of Tu-160 in the country is unlikely to be restored. It’s good if they can fix and modernize at least 3-5 cars a year,

      A year is spent on upgrading ONE Tu-22M3 ...
    2. +5
      August 16 2015
      Quote: rubin6286
      Bondarev knew and kept quiet about the situation with long-range aviation five and ten years ago. Inaction of the authorities is also a crime.


      You do not catch the difference between what he knew and what Bondarev could ?!
      Is it his competence to allocate money for these works ?! Or do you think the main thing is to find a "scapegoat"?
      So, such figures as Gorbachev and others like him, Chubais and Co. are still alive ...
      And here, Colonel Kvachkov V.V. - sits!
      1. +1
        August 16 2015
        In our army, like Lermontov’s: “The boss is strict, I’m nice that we don’t get bored with an extra request”! The Commander-in-Chief is silent, well, if something happens, we will write to him! As you have allowed! Where have you been before!
        One of the commanders whom I respected, spoke simply of the army in such situations: “Her child was silent for five years, then she said,“ Mom, b ... q! ”
        Serdyukov was in his own way a remarkable Minister of Defense. If you put in his place an intelligent military man, he would immediately ask for money for defense, but this one did not ask, he even increased salaries. The word "effective manager." When it became impossible to conceal what he was doing, they simply removed him, "sent him out of prison", probably not for "just like that." Shoigu is also a brilliant commander, but the military does not index pensions, and commodity prices are rising. Kvachkova sorry, the colonel still, it seems like he should think ...
  15. +1
    August 16 2015
    The article is correct, and yet ... If there is a solution, there will be both opportunities and finances. Moscow was not built in a day. Strategists like the 160 should not go supersonic into air defense zones. The task is to quickly deliver a set of weapons to the launch point - only ballistic missiles are faster. The mere presence of such "birds" in the air can cool the hottest brains of "partners".
    By technology, manufacturing capabilities, etc. This is all true, what the author writes. But you have to do it. And that means it will be done. Until recently, I read similar comments about Sushki, helicopters of the Kamov family. However, the release has begun, and it is growing.
    1. FID
      +3
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Until recently, I read similar comments about Dryers, Kamov family helicopters

      The scale ... And the factories that Su produced were not financed on a residual basis (remember who controlled the UAC?) And helicopters were produced, even in small batches, but ...
  16. +2
    August 16 2015
    It is sad to read that there are no vacuum furnaces on VASO for processing titanium blanks of wing spars. And therefore, VASO is now not able to resume the production of wing consoles, for the Tu-160M2, in the framework of cooperation with KAPO.

    As for assessing the increase in the strength of structural metal as a result of surface hardening (hardening), at the stage of designing the aircraft structure, such calculations were successfully made, back in the early 80s, by the dean of the Aviation Faculty of VSTU (VPI), head. Department of Materials Resistance, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Professor Del Garry Danilovich, specialist and author of a textbook on technological mechanics.
    He is already retired, but continues to work, collaborates, including with foreign customers.
    By the way, the Department of Chemistry at VPI, in those days, was headed by Falicheva Anfisa Ivanovna, Doctor of Technical Sciences
    Interestingly, is this the same name or relative of the author of the article?
  17. +5
    August 16 2015
    Nobody will fly anything. Alas, all is lost!
    People and a country that could do something. Why the USSR could, but Russia can not.
    No people with the education needed. There are lawyers, economists, sociologists, experts, traders, a merchandiser! There are no workers, engineers, technologists, ... Soon there will be no scientists with the development of FANO.
    Read the book "People and Rockets" by Boris Chertok. Stalin set the task. Make a rocket. FAU. Korolyov dreamed of making his own FAU. Better, faster, prettier. Vissarionich said that it was necessary to repeat one to one and to fly! And when you put this product on stream, you will start improving. Otherwise it won't.
    In the country, the FAA out of 14 or 16 thousand items produced 7 thousand. The rest had to be raised by ourselves. And they lifted. What a price! But how many personnel were in the USSR! How much was invested in education and production. People lived in barracks, but raised the country!
    And now!
    Thieves can't do something worthwhile! Just under the slogan "let's make an airplane" they will cut down a little more money for repairs with siding of workshops and KB buildings, but there will be no sense! That's for sure!
    You must invest in another! IMHO!
    1. +1
      August 16 2015
      - The song "vsepalschik", as others like you are called on the site "Made by us". It feels like you never go there, and therefore I recommend you go and ask how much is being done, how much money has been invested in production and, especially, in the defense industry and in the Armed Forces, since 2006.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. FID
        +3
        August 16 2015
        Quote: north67
        Enough to whine. Let's go to work

        On Sunday??? Yes, you’ll never come !!!
        1. -1
          August 16 2015
          But A.G. Shipunov did not hesitate to work on weekends, and in three shifts ...
          https://youtu.be/SUYMH2pwHAc
          https://youtu.be/c9Ie8ADKkx4
  18. -1
    August 16 2015
    What is the point of resuming Tu 160 production when PAK DA began to be designed? - these huge funds for the purchase and resumption of production, about one and a half trillion rubles, would be spent on creating missile defense systems, and we have plenty of aircraft capable of launching strategic cruise missiles from our territory.
    1. +4
      August 16 2015
      An experienced aircraft, and even more so a project, is not something that can be put into service. It still needs to be checked and verified, brought to mind, and this is years! By the way, no one guaranteed the success of the project.
      And the modernization of existing weapons is cheaper, less risky, and most importantly - takes less time.
    2. +1
      August 16 2015
      The point is to maintain (at a relatively inexpensive) industry. PAK YES is delayed, but you need to produce something.
    3. 0
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Vadim237
      aircraft capable of launching strategic cruise missiles from our territory we have plenty

      Share it? wink
  19. -2
    August 16 2015
    Whining. It was enough to say: the issue of financing will be solved - the plane will be built better and better.
    He worked at the serial Voronezh aircraft plant when they made the TU-144. They paid money. There were great engineers and workers.
    Need will force, financing will appear.
    1. +2
      August 16 2015
      Such a judgment is also extreme. The availability of money is a necessary condition, but not yet sufficient, for the success of the project. And all that O. Falichev writes about is significant things!
    2. FID
      +3
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Coboklo
      Whining. It was enough to say: the issue of financing will be solved - the plane will be built better and better.
      He worked at the serial Voronezh aircraft plant when they made the TU-144. They paid money. There were great engineers and workers.
      Need will force, financing will appear.

      Since then, a lot has changed ... There was a NEED, not for the state, for ordinary people ... Do your relatives work for VASO? After all, you, apparently, are retired .... After all, the question is - WHO will do better and better?
  20. 0
    August 16 2015
    The mood spoiled after reading the article and comments sad
    1. FID
      +1
      August 16 2015
      And you do not read about aviation topics, or read on the site "made by us" ... The mood will rise IMMEDIATELY!
  21. +3
    August 16 2015
    Even the SSI is right, we lost the excitement and people work only for money and not for the idea. Who asked and persuaded designers, engineers and workers not to leave the design bureaus and factories for months! Nobody. They knew that they were creating their future, their dream. It’s important that it was called communist. Now what is it called?
    NK32 is a unique engine but it is not necessary to repeat it.
    Then they attracted young graduates, engineers to create new engines. These people not only created a new one, but many defended their scientific ranks. And that was then the norm.
    Who cares about the OKB ND Kuznetsova.
    http://forums.vif2.ru/showthread.php?t=1226
    http://www.ssau.ru/info/history/1942...contents/2_04/
    http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/74/page28.html
    1. +5
      August 16 2015
      And why should defense workers always work on bare enthusiasm ?! Now there are no social benefits that were in the USSR, all for money only! What are they worse than entrepreneurs or employees of commercial structures? And why should a specialist whose qualifications have been worked out for 40 years have to lead a miserable existence, regularly performing work, and even more so, in retirement? - The average earnings in the Tula KBP, whose products are the best in the world, are about 20000 rubles.
      1. +4
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Bison
        And why should defense workers always work on bare enthusiasm ?!

        Yes, because in the heads of enterprises now managers from the outside and have no idea in the production process. And in their concept, only they have the right to a worthy reward, all the rest are dirt under their feet, they prevent people from living peacefully and enjoying the benefits of life.
        Alas, this is already a trend in our country - he who does not create anything from material wealth has the most of these benefits. Why go far, take the Vostochny Cosmodrome. I still do not understand - they paid the builders to the end or this canoe is still ongoing. And this despite the fact that the construction organized the state and allocated money for it in full.
        И FID I understand perfectly well in this respect - if a person knows the value of his head and his hands, then to go into service (I emphasize - in service, and not at work) to mediocrity and boors is a humiliation of self-worth. No matter how patriotic slogans all this is covered in our state. To restore, for starters, one of the commandments is necessary: ​​yes according to your labors, be repaid to you.
        1. +1
          August 18 2015
          "Decent remuneration for decent work" To each according to work, from each according to his ability "-If he did not lie from the Code of the builder of communism. Officials and villains were at all times. It's bad that young people drank 90s.
  22. The comment was deleted.
    1. +3
      August 16 2015
      You are apparently from the Moon or from Mars, it is not Stalin and his team in power. How much the current regime has stated that a reform of medicine and education will be carried out. And what are the results? Education and medicine are rapidly commercializing, while salaries and pensions are not rising. Conducted a negative result. And what does the veterans have to do with it. Which system, such is the result.
  23. -6
    August 16 2015
    The author painted a very depressing picture - in the days of the USSR everything worked out and worked, but today it is not worth starting. Well, some nonsense, bullshit. The resentment of an old man, undeservedly forgotten and deprived of well-deserved awards, is traced. So it is necessary to launch the technology and work it out on the modernization of "old" designs and evolutionarily move to new ones, to PAK YES, and not whine and not refer to the bad guys from the USA.
    1. +5
      August 16 2015
      Quote: bratchanin
      The author painted a very depressing picture - in the days of the USSR, everything worked and worked, but today it’s not worth starting.

      The author of the article is much better informed than you! Read the text carefully - he does not call not to start, he talks about problems that need to be addressed in a short time!
    2. FID
      +6
      August 16 2015
      Quote: bratchanin
      So it is necessary to launch the technology and work it out on the modernization of "old" designs and evolutionarily move to new ones, to the PAK YES, and not whine and not refer to the bad guys from the USA.

      Well, then run! Who does not give you? What is stopping you from launching new technologies and modernizing the whole country? If no one bothers, then what do not run? And about the bad uncles from the USA Where did you read? Or is it just on duty?
    3. -1
      August 16 2015
      You are apparently a technologist in the field of aircraft manufacturing. So take and help, and do not criticize the one who created what we are proud of now.
      1. FID
        +2
        August 16 2015
        Quote: andrei.yandex
        You are apparently a technologist in the field of aircraft manufacturing. So take and help, and do not criticize the one who created what we are proud of now

        If this is you to me, then I’m not a technologist, I am an operator of aircraft control systems (autopilots in simple terms) and what you are proud of now, all 35 aircraft have passed through my hands, and now I REFUSE to help anyone ...
        1. +1
          August 17 2015
          The recipient is not you.
          1. FID
            +1
            August 17 2015
            Got it, missed it ...
  24. avt
    +4
    August 16 2015
    Quote: bratchanin
    ... So it is necessary to launch the technology and work out on the modernization of the "old"

    wassat So what to do then? Run and then again, or did it work out? I then sinfully believed that these verbs mean different actions. fool Have you ever seen the production of something not in the pictures? Well, before you talk about
    Quote: bratchanin
    evolutionarily move to new, to PAK YES,

    Can you imagine how the department of the chief technologist works? Moreover, not one is actually the main one. “Cadres decide everything” - are they cadres? , Effective "managers, piarasists, higher economists are like mud after the rain and everyone stinks that they know how others should do it, and engineers and skilled workers - with gulkin x ... obot!" And everyone yells in chorus -
    Quote: bratchanin
    evolutionarily switch to new ones, to PAK YES, and not whine and not refer to bad uncles from the USA.

    Straight on Oh Henry - "Stop feeding promises - it's time to get down to business!" Only they themselves do not fucking know how to take this business, and they do not want to - someone else, "stop whining"
    Quote: bratchanin
    Well, some kind of nonsense, bullshit. The insult of the old man, undeservedly forgotten and deprived of well-deserved awards, is traced.
    according to the new testament of these managers should be taken.
  25. +1
    August 16 2015
    other managers in the near future will have to deal closely with the solution of personnel problems. There are practically no middle-aged specialists. There is a generation of 30 year-olds and those who are far beyond 60.

    this situation is almost everywhere in industry ... but everyone started somewhere with something, and modern methods of construction and design have gone far ahead ... the main thing is what kind of education they have - if the "high school" corroded the exam, then everything is in order .. ...
  26. +3
    August 16 2015
    Who wants to argue with me on a box of vodka that the reproduction of TU-160 will not happen, and all will be limited to conversations.
    1. FID
      +3
      August 16 2015
      Quote: fomkin
      Who wants to argue with me on a box of vodka that the reproduction of TU-160 will not happen, and all will be limited to conversations

      On cognac, on whiskey - that's what you need to argue, but vodka, yes, tastier ...
  27. +1
    August 16 2015
    Quote: razzhivin
    Electronics was made in Zelenograd and Yerevan.


    So, what, in my opinion, there is no reason to regret, because it is the European electronics.
    I know this from the air defense systems that KREMZ (Tula region, Kimovsk) and the factory in Yerevan did at the same time.
    Quote from an article in Krasnaya Zvezda:
    "- It turns out that 40 percent of the old generation KSA company amalgamation is in service with KREMZ, and 60 percent of a similar one is produced by the Yerevan enterprise. And for some reason the newer Yerevan Fields" burn "many times more often than the Kimov ones. the time of their repair, the Kimovites rework the Yerevan marriage year after year. At the same time, the branded repairs carried out by KREMZ are not much different from the major overhaul of Fields carried out by one St. Petersburg enterprise. Only the first costs half the cost of the second. "
    http://old.redstar.ru/2009/02/13_02/1_05.html
  28. +2
    August 16 2015
    With the existing liberal system there will be no sense. After all, the main thing is money. And who has no money that rogue. Just imagine, he invents what works, why should he pay. The main ones are effective managers. While the system does not change the sense will not. We have a systemic crisis in our country.
  29. -1
    August 16 2015
    the author is in vain experiencing. KAPO will be able to resume the release of TU160 (if there will be finances and engines), BUT WHAT IS THE PURPOSE - THIS IS THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE END OF THE 70's ????
    no one is releasing new (existing ones are being modernized) tanks T80, T72, but they have developed the latest ARMATU ......
    logic WITH RESUME OF PRODUCTION TU160 is not clear ............
    any "invisible" person needs to open the bomb bay, AND IT WILL BECOME VISIBLE FOR A MIG AND THIS MIG IN PRINCIPLE IS ENOUGH ...
    1. 0
      August 16 2015
      The goal is to keep production. Develop in the shortest time the latest tank, which in general has been developing a slightly different level of the problem for already 25 years. And the money has become less.
      1. 0
        August 17 2015
        TU -214ON produces KAPO, so the assembly process is not completely lost ..........
    2. -1
      August 16 2015
      It feels like you're a great specialist, in terms of muttering ...
  30. +2
    August 16 2015
    ... "The PAK YES is already being designed" ... "Why build the Tu 160 when the PAK YES will soon be launched" ... well, and then in that spirit. And where does this PAK DA come from if the Tupolevites themselves declare that they have no experimental production left. And I agree with them, because I myself see in its place elite residential buildings overlooking the Yauza, and the famous house on the street. Radio (the legendary "sharashka") has been turned into a business center. I personally cannot imagine how they are going to create a fundamentally new technique without pilot production, where it would be possible to work out all new technical solutions, which was normal practice in the Soviet aviation industry. Maybe the project will be completely executed on a computer, which is called until the last rivet, and then reproduced on a 3D printer? Well - well ... And if they are going to strain a serial enterprise with this task, then this is a complete guarantee that everything will stop there. Then we will definitely not see not only new Tu-160s, but even modernized and refurbished ones. Until the problems with personnel, technological re-equipment and expansion of production, restoration of the experimental base, then
    Quote: fomkin
    reproduction of the TU-160 will not happen, and everything will be limited to conversations.

    And this applies to all advertised PAKs.
    1. 0
      August 16 2015
      But didn’t they notice that the KLA had already rebuilt a new building in Zhukovsky? What is it planned to transfer all the design bureau to the Engineering Center from Moscow, not to mention the pilot plants?
      1. +2
        August 16 2015
        The result is a kind of communal apartment with all its "charms".
      2. FID
        0
        August 16 2015
        Quote: Bison
        But didn’t they notice that the KLA had already rebuilt a new building in Zhukovsky? What is it planned to transfer all the design bureau to the Engineering Center from Moscow, not to mention the pilot plants?

        The whole question is, who will go there? Old people from KB? The youth? I don't want to offend today's youth, there are good ones among them, not all managers ... But, what have the young people done over the past years? Aviation is closer to me, therefore, the question is for the aviation youth ... Numerous modifications of Soviet inventions ... Where is yours? Just don't remember the SSJ - this is a Boeing development, the MS-21 is a deep modernization of the Yak-42 ... What's new? And what will happen in this Engineering Center (nowadays it is fashionable to say "cluster")? UAC would invest money in aircraft construction, and not in the grandiose construction of various Centers ...
        1. +1
          August 16 2015
          I also have a question for you: "Was there a lot of government orders for modern youth, backed up by good pay ?!"
          Or, they were given, but they refused?
          Chatting - don’t roll bags! Tongue, it is boneless.
          And why not remember the Superjet? It was created under the guidance of my former colleague from the company Myasishchev, who later switched to Sukhoi, on the GSS. It can be attributed precisely to those whom you so unflatteringly spoke about.
          Have you noticed new helicopters in Russia? What about drones?
          Where do you think the KLA invests, if not the creation of aircraft and the modernization of aircraft factories ?!
          KnAPO, Irkut, Ulan-Ude, Komsomolsk, Ulyanovsk, Kazan, St. Petersburg, Perm, Taganrog, Rostov-on-Don ... In Irkutsk, preparations for the production of MS-21 are coming to an end. New machines, including imported ones. Assembly lines using the latest technology. Is this nonsense ?!
          1. FID
            0
            August 16 2015
            Quote: Bison
            Ulyanovsk, Kazan

            And you tell it in these cities ... By the way, an article about KAPO, KAZ on the present. Have you read it or what? Is there much said about modernization? Of the helicopters, the new only Ansat ... Yes, still, I need an order for young people, and even with a good salary !!! Yes, certainly, a language without bones and about bags is right to the point ... Poghosyan would take you to PR-managers ...
            1. +3
              August 16 2015
              Quote: SSI
              And you tell it in these cities.


              Seryozha .... drop him .. everything is clear with him ... another "ideological" "knee-up"!
              He has no idea what he is writing about .. ONE SLOGAN !!! soldier
          2. +3
            August 16 2015
            And what exactly did they create there?

            Maybe avionics from Thales? Maybe engines from PowerJet? Or interior and life support systems from B / E Aerospace?

            Screwdriver assembly and creation are not the same thing ...

            The Tu-334 was created in the Russian Federation almost entirely, so where is it? Want to tell you. They didn’t invest in that, unlike the pagosyak, who invested in kickbacks and pushing ...
            1. +2
              August 17 2015
              Tu 334 / Tu204 / 214 is generally a sore point for Kazan (Ulyanovsk). They were created by the pros of civil aviation (with a high degree of unification of units and assemblies), in contrast to the SSJ 100 and the future MS21 .......
          3. +2
            August 16 2015
            Quote: Bison
            In Irkutsk, preparations for the production of MS-21 are already ending. New machines, including imported, latest. Assembly lines using the latest technology. Is that nothing?


            Dear Bison! A distinctive feature of this site is that, along with the "urya-patriots" present here, there are real specialists in any field .... therefore, purely a recommendation ... before writing something about a specific plant or a specific topic .. it costs a lot - think very hard .. so how .. well, here I am for example ... was, well, quite recently, on Irkut .. saw everything !!! And how EVERYTHING is done ... if it were not for the local men, with naked enthusiasm and local Engineers-leaders ... that this MS-21 ... would have seen, but at best they would have heard it ... as it is now fashionable by the year 202. ..... wassat
            Your phrase ..... "assembly lines with the latest technology" ... completely killed !!!
            Do you even know .. where is Irkut and ..... what is generally done and produced there wink

            Preparation for production is coming to an end ?????? M..lyat..where you are such .... "ProVedrosovskih" take? wassat
            On this topic, even the Chief Designer is not assigned ..... he has lines wassat
            Disappointed !!! negative
            1. -4
              August 16 2015
              Calm down, you are our all-knowing one!
              Assembly line, this is about the Superjet. Sleep well, comrade!
              1. +2
                August 16 2015
                Quote: Bison
                Calm down, you are our all-knowing one!
                Assembly line, this is about the Superjet. Sleep well, comrade!


                What is the Super Bobik assembly line in Irkut? belay

                Your comment is "In Irkutsk, preparations for the production of MC-21 are coming to an end. New machines, including imported ones, are the latest. Assembly lines using the latest technology."

                Che ... "I don't want to sit in a puddle," but when they carry a face about a table .. what .. not really? wassat

                Therefore, I advised .. before "shuffling into the subject" ... think hard ... because. you can run into wassat
                1. -4
                  August 17 2015
                  Quote: ancient
                  What is the Super Bobik assembly line in Irkut?

                  Are you all making the most intelligent out of yourself?
                  And something I do not see a single clever idea on the topic of the article in your primitive writings ...
    2. +3
      August 17 2015
      Quote: aviator65
      ... "The PAK YES is already being designed ..." Why build the Tu 160 when the PAK YES will soon be launched "...

      Soon, it will be serial years through 20-25 until PAK YES becomes serial. The question is still about financing the project and procurement of the Moscow Region. By that time, the park by our strategist will not even become obsolete, but simply disappear from us.
      The production of Swans is a measure of the life needed for our strategic aviation more than just a whim or half measure.
      Sincerely. hi
  31. -2
    August 16 2015
    Assembly of Superjet-100
    http://sergeydolya.livejournal.com/394740.html?thread=68480500
    http://sergeydolya.livejournal.com/394885.html
    Irkutsk Aviation Plant.
    https://youtu.be/1w20OUQ_zTw
    1. FID
      +6
      August 16 2015
      The question I always ask my opponents is that 100 aircraft have been built. There are 50-60 flying around the world. Question: where are the others? And why domestic a / c do not stand in line for this miracle, but buy "scorers", CRJ, ATP, etc.
  32. +1
    August 16 2015
    The author’s article hurt many, from senior citizens to schoolchildren. I will allow myself to draw a certain conclusion: the fate of our aviation in general and military aviation, in particular, is not indifferent to people at all, and it’s good that they can express their opinion on certain issues, even if their point of view does not coincide with the official one. The main thing is that the military and political leadership of the country should be aware of the presence of certain problems in the production and development of aviation equipment and make really feasible and meaningful decisions. They will be understandable to everyone: from the working aircraft factory to the Chief Designer, and then the "lack of trust" of the "lower classes" to the "upper circles" will be overcome, because often it is the basis of many comments.
  33. -1
    August 16 2015
    Is it not obvious that Putin, Shoigu, Rogozin, and others are very well-informed about the problems of industry, the armed forces, science, this, in my opinion, is not in doubt.
    But one must understand that, as if in the media they did not say that, they say, sanctions and a crisis in the economy, the war in Ukraine is like water off a duck, this is not so in reality. And the budget deficit today is a fact. Therefore, not everything is really possible. And therefore, financing is inevitably a priority principle ...
  34. -2
    August 16 2015
    State guarantees to aircraft manufacturers.
    http://politikus.ru/v-rossii/32466-kabmin-predostavil-oboronpromu-gosgarantii-na

    -create-aviadvigateley.html

    STATE AND PROSPECTS OF UAC AIRCRAFT PLANTS
    http://www.nationaldefense.ru/includes/periodics/defense/2014/0728/154713615/det
    ail.shtml

    About import duties.
    http://politikus.ru/articles/31140-ekonomicheskaya-revolyuciya-sverhu-ili-ustroy



    -chubaysu-infarkt.html

    Virtual tour of the cabin of the Sukhoi Business Jet aircraft in VIP configuration.
    (view of the cabin, cockpit and utility rooms)
    http://www.rg.ru/2014/09/07/samolet-site.html#

    In the Sverdlovsk region, the creation of a new enterprise for the assembly of machine tools continues
    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/52256/

    In Tula, created a new machine-tool enterprise
    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/51572/

    In the Vladimir region, the assembly production of modern CNC machines is open
    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/49647/
    In Kirov, a machine-tool factory was opened.
    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/49647/#cut
    1. FID
      +2
      August 16 2015
      Quote: Bison
      Sukhoi Business Jet virtual VIP cabin tour

      A copy of the aircraft at the end of 2013 acquired Rosoboronexport - a decent office, is not it? In May of this year, without explaining the reasons, the aircraft was returned to the GSS. Can you explain this act?
      1. 0
        July 2 2017
        Almost 2 years have passed since the moment of writing the article. Still doubt that they will build the Tu-160m2? And for some reason no one mentioned here another popular saying in the USSR - we have no irreplaceable. Relax on the retirement you deserve. And young people are not as bad as they seem, they can handle it.
  35. -1
    August 16 2015
    Quote: CERHJ
    Quote: Bison
    But one must understand that, as if in the media they did not say that, they say, sanctions and a crisis in the economy, the war in Ukraine is like water off a duck, this is not so in reality. And the budget deficit today is a fact. Therefore, not everything is really possible. And therefore, financing is inevitably a priority principle ...

    The young man does not understand. That even having bought these airplanes in leasing (Superjet). They are not needed for nothing without any sanctions ... See the time of issue. Leasing and specific supply contracts ...
    Quote: Bison
    Is it not obvious that Putin, Shoigu, Rogozin, and others are very well-informed about the problems of industry, the armed forces, science, this, in my opinion, is not in doubt.

    After this phrase, I have no doubts about the "competence" of this forum member ... wassat
  36. -2
    August 16 2015
    Regarding my age, you, to put it mildly, got your finger in .... Be more careful in the future! smile
    Regarding the rest - we'll see!
    Was here, on the Avia.ru forum, a certain Gusarov who made similar forecasts, they say, the plane will not even take off, then - no one will buy it ...
    But, the dog barks, and the caravan goes, as they say in the east ...
  37. -1
    August 16 2015
    Chief Designer, Lavrov, about the Sukhoi Superjet 100
    http://airview.livejournal.com/199927.html
  38. +1
    August 16 2015
    Just like in Hohland: zavdati-zrada-peremoga :))))))
  39. +2
    August 16 2015
    article is objective. every time I think, yes, many factories with the collapse of the Union have been drained, but is it really impossible to reconstruct factories for the production of high-quality weapons in such a huge country with so many golden heads?
    1. +3
      August 16 2015
      High-quality weapons require advanced technologies. Promising technologies are created as a result of lengthy basic research, 20-30 years from the creation of single instances of research equipment at sky-high prices, with an unwarranted result. At such costs, there must be competent engineers and scientists who correctly feel for the problem and can find a way to it, and this is possible only within the developed scientific and technological environment. Then 3-10 years are spent on applied research and the creation of engineering samples of products and equipment based on the results of a generalization of basic research. And then only after a few years, as a result of all this, the first real useful samples can be obtained. The question is, what kind of golden heads can be if no one has financed fundamental natural sciences since 89, are their results not used in applied schools and factories for a long time?

      An example of an LC matrix, research on them began back in late 50 and early 60, by large offices for their grandmas. The first results appeared only in the mid-70s, when they began to put them on the market. The heyday came in the late 80s and early 90s, and continues to this day ...
    2. 0
      August 16 2015
      Do you think we don’t have them ?!
      Then where does all that presented at the Victory Parade come from and what remains behind the scenes?
      1. +2
        August 16 2015
        "Do you eat sausage? Then you better not know from what and how it is made." - About the technique you saw at the parade, exactly the same statement fits ...
        1. -2
          August 16 2015
          Are you still flying the red flag? smile
          I hope in shorts, with a pioneer tie, and with a drum?
          I could advise you on a cardinal remedy - Goering parabellum.
          http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u182/periskop_su/History/krig_lofot_09.jpg
          As for the samples of military equipment. She is not cats that breed quickly, which is why blind people will be born.
          1. +4
            August 16 2015
            Don’t you envy you, the flag of the merchant fleet is also not bad, especially now there is something to trade from yourself to the country? What do you prefer to push?
            1. -1
              August 16 2015
              Quote: IAlex
              Don’t you envy you, the flag of the merchant fleet is also not bad, especially now there is something to trade from yourself to the country? What do you prefer to push?

              I prefer to "push" talkers. - They are now in great demand in the west.
  40. +1
    August 16 2015
    TU 160, TU 95 МС and Tu 22М3 today and the foreseeable future are quite sufficient strike components of strategic aviation in Russia. those. those tits in the hands of which no promised in ..years of years PAK YES can replace even now in the foreseeable future for many reasons. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to focus on the consistent modernization of these tits and their weapons, which will ensure their sufficient effectiveness for the 20 30 for years and not to forget about the creation and / or modernization of cover fighters and refueling tanks capable of ensuring the combat use of these projectiles throughout their flights. All the same, given the current state of the Russian economy, one cannot demand to finance equally the development of all components of the Russian Armed Forces. PAK YES is not among the priorities so far.
    And further. Enough to endlessly lament over who and what about .. slept once. Now there is a specific situation and it needs to be addressed taking into account all the possibilities and limitations. Indeed, the commander on the battlefield solves the task with the forces that he has, and not with the ones that he would like to have. And it is unlikely that he will have time and desire to obscure his negligent predecessors.
  41. +1
    August 16 2015
    Quote: wanderer
    "Supersonic" is not a panacea, because A high-flying and brightly luminous target, even at two swings, is not a problem for modern Rocket, but an inconspicuous target at the same height is still a problem, although it flies much slower. So PAK YES is still preferable in our time.


    On the contrary, modern radars will see any stealth the size of a bomber over hundreds of kilometers, but speed is speed, you can’t reset it.
  42. +1
    August 16 2015
    In short, the cheers and patriots gathered together in one discussion)) We must look for a middle ground ... Not everything is completely rosy, but not everything is lost, there will be money - there will be a plane, there’s no need to drive young people here, I noticed that they’re being driven to youth those who themselves didn’t create in their life. My opinion is of course that instead of the Tu-160 it is better to do something new ...
  43. +1
    August 16 2015
    I read all the comments and realized that everyone was discussing the article from the position of the Air Force or issues of its application, rather than production. But the main idea is different.

    First of all, it is necessary to restore the assembly line. If real specialists take on the job, rooting for our aircraft, and not “effective managers”, then everything is solved.


    and another problem looms

    other managers in the near future will have to deal closely with the solution of personnel problems


    As the saying goes "Personnel decides everything," I didn't say it (alas), it was JV Stalin who said it, but he understood this issue.
  44. +2
    August 16 2015
    Unfortunately, the state of the machine park at the plant leaves much to be desired. Completely Soviet-made units, the tolerances and accuracy of which do not meet the requirements of the time

    Of the technological equipment and the machine park at KAPO, there were good three-coordinate machines.


    This is bad guys, very bad .. For the aircraft industry is no good.
    What does it mean to STAY ??

    “And our designers are weak,” the process technician sighs. - They were good when they made the car for the first time, that is, still under the USSR. But they are not there, or they, like me, have long been retired. ”


    And where do they come from - good? For this we need to design airplanes ..
    For a long time to learn in the pickup from the masters.
    I have a suspicion that in this case the young general

    A young chief designer, Tu-160, has been appointed, who is still learning a lot, he has no experience in creating and producing such machines. At one time he was chairman of the Council of Young Specialists


    rather young than constructor.
    Gene designer for such an aircraft must be either a genius or a man very old.

    I'm sorry with the production is connected, not with the aircraft ..
    I read ... and I felt sad ..
  45. +2
    August 16 2015
    Despite all of the above, KAPO, experts believe, is basically ready to reproduce the Tu-160. Although, we repeat, there is still no specific task, no money. There are none, however, in PJSC "Tupolev". Although the production start-up scheme is very clear: TK - money - work.


    In the matter of technology - the horse did not roll. The approximate plan pretends, but is not approved. A young chief designer, Tu-160, has been appointed, who is still learning a lot, he has no experience in creating and producing such machines. At one time he was chairman of the Council of Young Specialists.
    “Nothing is ready, everyone is waiting for some kind of decision from above and approval of documents,” said the interlocutor of the “Military-Industrial Courier”,


    Those guys are not clear ... What are we going to release ... who will be releasing ..
    Is there a finished project ?? New Tu 160 ??
    It seems not .. its creation - a few years of hard work ...
    Then a prototype is created, then tests ..
    Production by that time can be prepared - but all this AFTER 2020 of the year ...

    Or they want to stuff a new plane with an old plane?
    New wine in old furs ?? Do not break ??

    But even if just resume SUCH aircraft (with minor changes) - not a fig ..
    Those preproduction will take figs know how much time ...

    Although of course you can start to learn money tomorrow ..
  46. +2
    August 16 2015
    You see, gentlemen - over the past 20 years we have degraded very well ...
    Yes, bought cars. Yes, luxury housing in Europe, but Spa Salons opened ...
    And it seems to us that we have gone ahead ..
    BUT Progress (whose production did not stop) fall ...
    In technology, in science, in production - we rolled back.
    Uncharacteristic - but read the modern Russian fiction ..
    And there percents steer steep bandos, and a bespectacled scientist or on fluorine roles or not finally can as a class ..
    Vova drove Vodila Volyn ...
    Sorry BUT in such a country, I do not believe in any Tu 160 - this is a profanation ...
    I don’t know if we should follow the advice of a wise Briton to change the Constitution for issuing one suspect to London
    BUT to build ONE new Tu-160 we need to CHANGE THE COUNTRY.
    In the country Vovanov with volynami he will not fly.
    So you have to choose ...
    So say or go ahead to the Stone Age
    Or back to the Future ...
    1. -1
      August 17 2015
      They said exactly the same about PAKFA that it will never take off and that at best it will be another clone of the su-27.
      1. 0
        August 17 2015
        Tu 160 is unique (DIMENSIONS / payload / speed) no one has anything like it.
        This is a giant plane.
        And this is the peak of Soviet development.
        Fighter build a little easier.
  47. +1
    August 16 2015
    The author writes:
    It is stated that the Tu-160 has a flight range at a speed of 2200-2500 kilometers per hour at an altitude of 18 meters - in the range of 000-11 thousand kilometers; in subsonic mode at altitude and near the ground - 13–16 and 18–11 thousand kilometers, respectively. The aircraft was supposed to approach the target at cruising speed, and to overcome enemy air defense - in supersonic high-altitude mode or at cruising speed near the ground, carrying a combat load of up to 13 tons.

    I see on the website airwar.ru:
    Tu-160:
    Thrust, kN
    4 x 137.20
    afterburner xnumx xnumx
    Maximum speed km / h
    at height 2000
    off the ground xnumx
    Cruising speed, km / h 850
    Practical range, km
    with normal bomb load 14000
    with a maximum bomb load of 10500
    Flight duration, h 15
    Maximum rate of climb, m / min 4200
    Armament:
    Two inboard fuselage compartments accommodate different target loads with a total mass of standard - 22500 kg, maximum - up to 40000 kg: including 2 drum launchers with six strategic and tactical missiles X-55 and X-55M, 2 drum launchers with 12 short-range aeroballistic missiles X-15 (M = 5,0) with nuclear and non-nuclear warheads, various types of KAB up to KAB-1500, thermonuclear and conventional bombs, mines.

    Tu-95MS:
    Maximum speed km / h
    at height 830
    off the ground xnumx
    Cruising speed, km / h 710
    Practical range, km 10500
    Combat range, km 6500
    Practical ceiling 12000
    Crew 7
    Armament:
    two 23-mm guns GSh-23 or GSh-23L
    Combat load - normal 9000 kg, maximum - 20000 kg, overload - 25000 kg:
    The Tu-95MS is equipped with a multi-position drum launcher designed for six small-sized X-55 long-range subsonic cruise missiles (range 2500 km). Under the wing on two nodes of the external suspension of the Tu-95MS-6 aircraft, four more missiles of this type are allowed. On a Tu-95MS-16 aircraft, under the wing at four nodes, ten X-55s can be suspended (currently, in accordance with the Russian-American agreement, all Tu-95MS aircraft carry rocket weapons only on internal suspension). It is possible to equip the aircraft with conventional free-falling bombs.

    In-52:
    Link unforced, kgf
    nominal 8 x 5080
    with water mixture injection 8 x 6240
    The maximum speed, km / h 1024
    Cruising speed, km / h 842
    Ferry range, km 12836
    Combat range, km 6600
    Max. rate of climb, m/min 1661
    Practical ceiling, m 14326
    Crew 6
    Armament: four 12.7 mm M3 machine guns
    Bomb load up to 22680 kg



    The result - the author, Oleg Falichev, just LIEED !!!!!
  48. -1
    August 16 2015
    The author writes a quote: "And the overhaul life of the engine (2000 hours) is only enough for a couple of dozen missions on alert."

    Copy from airwar.ru: Flight duration, h 15.

    I don’t have to talk about scheduled inspections of equipment here - this is done with power from the APU, even on the Mi-8 !!!
    AND ON THE SHILKA I AM ALL, AND ON THE TUNGUSK, AND ON THE TOP IS ALSO !!! Russian engineers are not stupid people!

    Further mathematics: 15 * 20 = 300 hours.
    Declared overhaul life - 2000 hours.
    Divide 2000 by 300 = 6, (6).

    In accordance with the rules of mathematics, this entry means Six integers, and six tenths in a period!
    Illuminated the same, the devil! :) :) :) :) :) :)
    It looks like this: 6,66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 .. Well and so on. :)
    Well I say, not our man wrote an article. And thanks for the criticism !! :) We strengthen the weaknesses! :)

    It turns out that not a couple of dozen sorties (20, which is also not bad, despite the fact that these are strategic bombers, and one sortie per month for one crew is very bad), but 120 sorties, which gives us 10 for planned monthly missions over a full radius years of service of one engine.

    And have Pratt-and-Whittney achieved such a resource for an engine of this power class? :) Even I doubt it ... :)

    At least, the LRE for heavy-class orbital missiles (this is an indicator of the necessary technologies) is why they are buying from us, despite the sanctions.
  49. +1
    August 16 2015
    Nobody wants to congratulate on the air defense of the day?
  50. 0
    August 17 2015
    Isn’t it easier to resume production of TU-95? A good car with modern avionics and engines will be relevant.
    1. +4
      August 17 2015
      Quote: Garris199
      Isn’t it easier to resume production of TU-95? A good car with modern avionics and engines will be relevant.

      Not easier. A morally obsolete machine. It does not meet the realities of tomorrow. Yes, and today too. A good machine was 20-30 years ago, but now technology has gone far ahead, and no matter how they stuffed the Bear with new avionics, in the realities of modern warfare it will little effective. This must be recognized and not cling to the Soviet backlogs on which we are so trying to get out.
      You can upgrade the equipment to a bluish appearance, but like a person, it is aging and I am not only talking about real age.
      Thank God that the Swan is still relevant and fresh, which is again due to the designers and specialists of THAT GREAT COUNTRY AND PEOPLE. But all the same, someday, if we don’t start to do our own thing, with our own hands and brains, it will make us do adversary.
      Sincerely. hi
      1. 0
        August 18 2015
        ... that Ice is still relevant and fresh, you are talking about a plane that never flew on combat duty, except in parades. The shelves began to be mastered in the late 80s, then the collapse and chaos, and it was all over. 95ms-machine, which has no equal in flight, combat characteristics. And will not be long.
  51. -1
    August 17 2015
    In the same VASO today completely different problems are solved. In addition, there is no necessary equipment, such as vacuum furnaces for roasting titanium. So VASO falls out of cooperation,

    When an alloy undergoes processing (bending, forming, surface strain hardening), it changes properties. Therefore, when making strength calculations, experts advise to be guided not by the initial state of the alloy, but by the one it acquires after processing. The Americans take this into account when calculating the strength of the structure, but we do not. Don't want to or don't know how?

    You don’t have to read it, the author is either stupid or a provocateur...
    Second quote in the memo! laughing
    1. 0
      August 17 2015
      Quote: mosquit
      You don’t have to read it, the author is either stupid or a provocateur...

      After reading the first paragraph, “kg/am” popped up in my mind - the content is so-so/the author is not very advanced. laughing
      1. 0
        August 17 2015
        Author - IGNORANT hi
  52. 0
    August 17 2015
    The problem of lack of qualified personnel, which is mentioned in the article, is extremely acute today. There is an acute shortage of qualified workers; these are mostly old people. But young people are not taught - the system of training labor reserves was destroyed under Yeltsin.
    When the plant produced a series of cars, great attention was paid to this.
    Not only the Tashkent aircraft plant produced 70 Il-76s per year. The practice of the Great Patriotic War also provided enormous experience in the production of large quantities of equipment, even under evacuation conditions. And there were real leaders who were able to do it!
    I remember how at the Voronezh Aviation Plant, when production of the Tu-144 was suspended, the director of the plant, remembering that the riveter loses his professional skills after only about 3 months (and there was a strict tolerance for deviation in the height of the rivet head above the skin surface) and hoping for resumption of mass production in the future, took an order from a poultry factory to produce bird cages, inexpensively, with virtually no profit, but at least employed a large number of riveters (they also riveted IL-86 there!).
    A team of fitters who performed the important operation of joining the wing and the center section (which is very difficult - the shape and dimensions of the wing in and outside the slipway are very different due to its flexibility and large geometric dimensions). So, old pensioners were kept solely for the sake of this operation and they were paid a very respectable salary.
  53. 0
    August 17 2015
    We still feel the consequences of the democratization of the 90s.
  54. 0
    August 17 2015
    Good article. I liked it. And there is no “Hurray-patriotism”. And “Guard of Patriotism” in moderation.
    I read the comments a little. My sister works at a very famous military production facility. They are going for export and riveting for their own defense industry. She told how two hard workers discussed prices for “export” and “our own”. So, they came to the conclusion that we will even make our own army for free, as long as exports support pants.
    But, unfortunately, not all hard workers are like that.
    She mentioned that quality control has recently become much stronger and responsibility has become stricter. Not everything is gloomy, in a word.
  55. 0
    August 17 2015
    The author is typical IGNORANT “from the pen”, pearls about “calculation without taking into account” this is a “litmus test” by which one can determine the “fruit”... there is no need to discuss further...
    The author of the article is typical "SHARIKOV" on Ave. Preobrazhensky...
  56. The comment was deleted.
  57. -1
    August 18 2015
    Is it necessary to start building an airplane exactly according to the drawings and from the materials that were available before?

    If we restore, then modernize. Use carbon fiber reinforced plastics where possible; rework the aerodynamics in order to remove the air intakes and engines to a more “inconspicuous” place; if possible, replace difficult-to-restore titanium parts with other materials.

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