Israel has declassified combat vehicle "Pare"

211
In mid-July, the Israeli military censorship lifted a ban on publishing information about one of the most mysterious samples of military equipment of the Israel Defense Forces. Thanks to a recent decision, everyone will now be able to learn about the new Peer combat vehicle, which has remained under secrecy for three decades. It should be noted, photos of this technology appeared earlier, but the latest decision of the Israeli command will allow specialists and amateurs of military equipment to study in detail one of the most interesting combat vehicles of recent times.

According to reports, the Pere combat vehicle (Savage or Wild Ass) was created in the first half of the eighties and entered the troops in 1985. Over the next few decades, fragmentary information about the new car appeared from time to time, but detailed information and appearance remained secret until the 2013 year. Just two years ago, several photos of secret cars got into free access. Last year, photographs leaked again, resulting in new controversies. The published photos to a certain extent revealed some features of the combat vehicle, but did not allow to know all the details of the project.


Fighting vehicle "Pere", photo 2013


Finally, a few days ago, the IDF command was forced to remove the neck of secrecy from a fairly old technology. One of the main reasons for this was the publication of a large number of photographs of Pere, which made it pointless to preserve the existing regime of secrecy. Thus, now the photo and video of such equipment with the subsequent publication of the received materials will not be a violation and will not entail proceedings and punishment.

According to some sources, the Pére missile defense vehicle was created as a means of combating tank columns of the enemy. In the early eighties, there was a risk of a war with Syria or other Arab states, which required appropriate preparations. One of the means of combating enemy tanks was to become a new missile system. It was assumed that in the event of the advancement of enemy armored vehicles, the Perae vehicles would attack it with guided missiles of a relatively long range, out of line of sight. Thus, the enemy risked heavy losses even before a direct clash with the Israeli armed forces.

The second main feature of the project was the disguise approach. Guided missile launchers were to be a priority for aviation and enemy artillery. To reduce the likelihood of detection and destruction, it was decided to make new combat vehicles as similar as possible to existing tanks. In combination with the requirements regarding the level of protection, all this affected the overall architecture of a promising combat vehicle.


Fighting vehicle "Pere", photo 2013


To ensure the maximum possible characteristics of mobility, protection and disguise, it was decided to build a Pere combat vehicle based on the Magah tanks. Recall that the name was worn by American tanks M48 and M60 of various modifications, operated by the Israeli army. In the first half of the eighties, the army had a large number of such equipment, which made it possible to use it as a basis for a self-propelled missile system capable of meeting all specific requirements. The use of the “Magah” family as the basis resulted in the appearance of a name reflecting the type of chassis and model of the missiles used - “Spike-Magah”.

In various photos of the Per car you can see the equipment based on the 5 Mages chassis - this designation was used for the M48A5 tanks. There is reason to believe that when converted into a carrier of guided missiles, the base tanks received a new powerplant, which increased their mobility. In addition, the frontal part of the buildings received blocks of dynamic protection. All this was done to improve the performance of the outdated chassis, as well as to further disguise a special combat vehicle.

The most interesting element of the Peré combat vehicle is a swinging turret mounted on a standard hull chase. Outwardly, it resembles the corresponding units of tanks existing at that time, but it has some differences. For example, a characteristic feature is a developed central part and a forage niche. At the same time, the front part of the tower is noticeably smaller in height. For the purpose of additional masking on the frontal part of the tower, next to the blocks of dynamic protection, a model of a tank gun was installed. The pipe of a characteristic shape was made of light alloys and was supposed to mislead the enemy.

Israel has declassified combat vehicle "Pare"
Fighting vehicle "Pere" with an open feed hatch of the tower, photo 2014


In front of the original tower were crew jobs. Behind them the volume for placement of rockets and other equipment launchers was provided. So, the launcher with 12 transport-launch containers of missiles was located in the central part of the tower, with a shift to the stern. The stern leaf of the turret could fold down to provide access to the launcher and, in particular, to reload it. To the right of the launcher in the tower was placed a lifting mast with a set of opto-electronic equipment to search for targets and control missiles. On the sides of a relatively large aft part of the tower, boxes are provided for the transport of various property.

The appearance of photographs with the open stern of the tower, on which it was possible to examine containers with missiles, led to the emergence of a new topic for disputes. Experts and the interested public tried to figure out exactly how the launch of the missiles. For obvious reasons, the version about launching rockets through the turret's aft hatch was quite widespread. It was assumed that in a combat position, the Pere vehicle turns the turret aft towards the target, opens the hatch and thus fires.

Nevertheless, the design of the real Peré complex turned out to be more interesting. The stern hatch of the tower is only used to retrieve empty containers and install new ones. For firing, the entire unit with 12 containers extends upward and rises above the roof of the tower. Simultaneously with the launcher, a block with optical-electronic systems is raised by turning up and forward. In the stowed position, it lies next to the launcher in the niche of the tower. During firing, the gases of the rocket's starting engine knock out the back cover of the container and go back without touching the roof of the tower.


Battery combat vehicles "Pare" with raised launchers


The basic one weapons combat vehicles "Pere" are guided missiles "Tamuz", created by Rafael. These missiles are an early version of the weapons developed in the framework of the Spike project. According to reports, the Tamuz missiles were created in the 1981 year and were intended to attack enemy vehicles and objects at ranges up to 25 km. The rocket with a launch weight of about 70 kg is equipped with an optical-electronic guidance system, which allows it to attack targets out of line of sight and work using a shot-and-forget algorithm. The main task of the missile is to defeat armored vehicles, for which it is equipped with a tandem-shaped cumulative warhead.

Subsequently, a Spike-NLOS (Non Line Of Sight) product was created based on the Tamuz rocket. The further development of the base rocket was the emergence of a new weapon with different characteristics. Currently, customers are offered six variants of the Spike family of missiles with different characteristics, allowing them to perform various combat missions.

The control equipment of the Tamuz missile system is installed in the tower of the combat vehicle. The operator’s workplace contains all the necessary instruments to monitor the operation of the systems, as well as controls. To detect targets at distances of up to several kilometers, the operator can use optical-electronic instruments of the machine located on the lifting mast. For the same purposes at long distances, external targeting can be used.


Tamuz rocket launch


Additional weapons designed for self-defense, consists of two machine guns. Such weapons are mounted on open turrets near the tower hatches. In addition, the crew rely several units of small arms. Other weapons machine "Pere" is not equipped. As already mentioned, instead of a cannon, a lightweight tube of the appropriate form is installed on the “tank” turret.

Both externally and in general layout, the Peré combat vehicle looks like tanks, but it has noticeable differences in the composition of weapons and tactical roles. All these features of the project make it difficult to classify. In its current form, this technique does not fit into the existing generally accepted system of classification of military equipment. The design of the chassis, the rotating tower, the level of protection and other features of the design in combination with the guided missile armament make it possible to consider the “Spike-Magah” a representative of the so-called class. missile tanks. Nevertheless, the proposed method of application and the role on the battlefield make such a combat vehicle a “distant relative” of various operational-tactical missile systems. In addition, you should consider the initial specialization of the machine - the destruction of enemy tanks. Thus, with certain reservations, the Peré can be called a self-propelled anti-tank missile system with long-range missiles.

In developing the project "Peer" or "Spike-Maga" took into account several basic requirements. Thus, the use of existing chassis allowed for mobility at the level of other equipment of the Israel Defense Forces, and the newest (at the time of developing the machine) missiles allowed attacking targets at ranges up to 25 km, thereby having noticeable advantages over the enemy.


Car "Peer" on the background of tanks "Merkava"


Nevertheless, an interesting approach to masking techniques attracts the most attention. Not wanting to reveal the existence of a new combat vehicle and to publicize its purpose, Israeli engineers tried to make it as close as possible to a tank. Indeed, they managed to solve such a problem - outwardly, the Peer machine is very similar to the main tanks of the Israeli design. It is possible to distinguish the carrier of guided missiles from a tank of an unknown new model only from a short distance and only in a few details. At the same time, the general view of the combat vehicle suggests that during its development the project authors tried to ensure maximum similarity with the Merkava family tanks.

Apparently, the disguise used led to the expected results. For a long time, the Israeli military managed to hide the Pere car from prying eyes, which, of course, helped with its characteristic appearance. In this case, however, the disguise was to be used, first of all, on the battlefield. In such an environment, she also had to have high efficiency. The concept of using Spike-Magi does not imply approaching the enemy at a distance of direct visibility. Air reconnaissance is also not able to notice the small differences in the appearance of the machine with rocket weapons and tanks.

According to reports, the Peré combat vehicles were delivered to the army from the mid-eighties. During the conversion of existing tanks, several units of such equipment were manufactured. The exact number of such machines is unknown: despite the removal of secrecy, the IDF is in no hurry to publish the details of the project, as well as the construction and operation of finished equipment. According to the most common opinion, a relatively small number of missile carriers were built. Their total number hardly exceeds several dozen. The exact determination of the number of “Pere” constructed is hampered by the fact that on most of the existing photographs this technique, instead of numbers printed on the boards with paint, carries textile nameplates. Probably, such identification marks were used for additional disguise.



Some of this technology was discovered in the spring of 2013, when Israeli troops deployed near the Syrian border. Then some photos of previously unknown cars got into free access. Soon came the first information about the purpose of this technique and the type of weapons used. In the summer of 2014, a few more photos of “Pere” appeared on which the open aft hatch allowed us to examine the internal volume of the tower. At the same time there was a version of shooting through the stern of the tower.

The latest portion of photographic material appeared just a few days ago. These photos show several Peré combat vehicles under various conditions and at different stages of combat work. There are pictures of combat vehicles in the parking lot, on the march, during the preparation for the shooting and during the launch of the rocket. Thanks to the removal of the secrecy stamp, everyone who wanted was able to see the previously almost unknown combat vehicle and learn its characteristics.

The exact number of built cars "Pere" is unknown. The experience of the combat use of such equipment also remains a secret. Apparently, self-propelled anti-tank missile systems of this type could be used in various conflicts since the mid-eighties. However, this information has not yet been published. It is quite possible that information on the combat use of the Spike-Magi complex will appear in the very near future.

According to some data, the emergence of a newer combat vehicle of a similar purpose was the actual reason for declassifying the Pere system. According to different sources, the technique of the new model uses newer and more advanced missiles, significantly increasing the characteristics of the complex. At the same time, there is no information about the characteristics or technical appearance of the replacement for Per. Moreover, the very fact of the existence of such a technique remains at the level of rumors.



Unfortunately, the most interesting information about the Peer combat vehicle, such as the results of combat use and operating features, has not yet been published. Nevertheless, even without this, the Israeli project is of particular interest both for specialists and for lovers of military equipment. The reason for this interest are several characteristic features of the project that determine its overall appearance.

First of all, the very idea of ​​locating a launcher for guided missiles of relatively long range on a tank chassis is interesting. It is also impossible not to note the work of the rocket on the principle of "launched and forgotten", implemented in the first half of the eighties. These features led to a high cross and outstanding, against the background of other equipment to fight tanks, indicators of firing range. However, the greatest interest is the desire to disguise the combat vehicle and thereby reduce to a minimum the probability of its detection and destruction. It is for this reason that the carrier of the Pere guided missiles has a lot of parts that make it look like an ordinary main tank.

If you believe some sources, then the new machine, which is designed to perform similar combat missions — the enemy’s attack with guided missiles at a distance of several tens of kilometers — has already replaced the Pere combat vehicle. There is no plausible information about this car, which is not surprising given the gap between the appearance of the Spike-Magah complex and the removal of the secrecy stamp. Therefore, it is not necessary to wait for the appearance of information about the new project, although additional information about the relatively old Peer car may appear in the very near future.
































On the materials of the sites:
http://nrg.co.il/
http://fresh.co.il/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
http://rafael.co.il/
http://defense-update.com/
211 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -32
    21 July 2015 05: 45
    The article is very similar to propaganda.
    1. +4
      21 July 2015 08: 30
      And in the photo "Pere" based on the M-60, or what?
      1. +3
        21 July 2015 15: 56
        Yes, judging by the face of the chassis from the M-6
        1. +6
          23 July 2015 11: 59
          Good fellows Israelis, when good fellows, then good fellows. For so many years not to give even a hint of the existence of such a system in service with the Tsakhal. (This, of course, does not mean that certain highly specialized services in certain countries were not aware of its existence).
          + Camouflaged by M-60 with body kits well, you can’t determine until the PU with the guidance locator rises above the tower.
          + Tank chassis as a bonus for cross-country ability and the ability to accompany tank units on the march
          + Reinforced engine compared to serial "Mages"
          +12 Charging launcher in a rotating tower, which reduces (if not at all) the need for reloading the complex in 1-2 battles.
          + ATGM flight range (If it meets the stated in the article)

          Without sarcasm or the desire to flatter the Israelites, the car is really very interesting and can perform a very wide range of tasks.

          PS
          And now a question for our "Israeli triumvirate" - Guys, will the new version of "Pere" be released on the basis of "Merkava 4"?
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +9
        21 July 2015 17: 40
        This is the Israeli version of the M60A1-M60A3 called Magach 6 - upgraded with enhanced armor protection, including dynamic. In total, the Americans supplied Israel with approximately 1400 medium tanks of the M60 series.
        combat vehicle "Pere" ("Savage" or "Wild Donkey")
        - A great name for armored vehicles, perfect for destroying Palestinian boys with stones in their hands. fellow In general, it illustrates a typically Jewish approach to the use of obsolete equipment - the installation of new types of weapons and a different concept of combat use.
        I have the honor.
      3. +1
        21 July 2015 19: 30
        So it begins. Well, what's outstanding?! Except for missiles and a shed disguised as a tank? Well, what's the catch of this Jewish underwafle? What will they say now that a rocket tank, so what's new? Or grandiose? For me, it's a shed, a shed and imprisoned for a war in the desert. And they made up him as a tank because in the desert it is far visible. Take the Arabs to come up with infantry, thinking that this is a tank. Here is all the secrecy about this "unsurpassed weapon of the future" Ha ha ha. By the way, even on the discovery of the doc.film scroll so that everyone is afraid. During the defense of Odessa, our tanks from tractors were made "out of fear" called, the Fritzes were terribly afraid of them
        1. +7
          21 July 2015 19: 50
          Quote: Observer2014
          So begins. Well and what is outstanding there ?!

          And who said that there must be something outstanding? A strong fighting unit, sharpened to combat the attacking masses of enemy tanks. And it is worthy of increased attention and primary destruction on the battlefield.
        2. +17
          21 July 2015 20: 13
          Quote: Observer2014
          the ultimate weapon of the future "ha ha ha

          Where do you come from? We look in the book, we see a fig? It is written in Russian - Pere created and entered service in the second half of the eighties ... What weapon of the future?
          Quote: Observer2014
          And they made it up under the tank because in the desert it is far visible. .At Pont of Arabs to take, that would be afraid of infantry, thinking that this is a tank

    2. +10
      21 July 2015 10: 01
      propaganda of what?
    3. -19
      21 July 2015 10: 13
      Like "cheburakhera" (sun) but in the Jewish version!
      1. +13
        21 July 2015 10: 38
        Quote: EGOrkka
        Like "cheburakhera" (sun) but in the Jewish version!

        These are completely different systems.
        Quote: Evgeny_Lev
        At this speed, you can shoot down with an "awl", and you can also shoot down with an "arrow", at such a speed

        Are you sure ?

        Quote: MolGro
        cheaper tank

        If you carefully read the article - then the tank there - only a platform, a tower (its type) and a pipe (instead of a gun) for disguise
        By the way, the platform you cited as an example, how much ATGM carries?
        1. 0
          21 July 2015 10: 41
          I’m absolutely sure that the tops have 250 m / s speed, and they are knocked down
          1. +2
            21 July 2015 11: 01
            Quote: Evgeny_Lev
            I’m absolutely sure that the tops have 250 m / s speed, and they are knocked down

            A rocket weighing 71 kg and a length of 1.5 m --- I won’t ask what, just - good luck!
            1. +5
              21 July 2015 11: 05
              Well, of course, there’s nothing, because her dimensions are small, and the exhaust, so the cigarette is even higher, right?
            2. +5
              21 July 2015 12: 33
              Quote: atalef
              A rocket weighing 71 kg and 1.5 m long --- I won’t ask what, just - good luck

              1. The missile has an average velocity on the trajectory: 130 — 180 m / s.
              2. Any "miracle rocket" can be shot down (or rather damaged) behind a row of buckshot. The main thing to get (for a speed of 140-180 m / s and 1,5 m in length) is a fairly easy problem
              Case: thin-walled, this is not an artillery shell (thick-walled blank). What, in principle, does the iron dome

              ZSU-23-4 "Shilka": Designed for direct cover of ground forces, the destruction of air targets at ranges up to 2500 m and altitudes up to 1500 m, flying at speeds up to 450 m / s, as well as ground (surface) targets at a range of up to 2000 m from a standstill, with a short stop and in motion ..

              It will bring down this carcass quite easily, especially if the trajectory perpendicular to the line of attack is
              ------------------
              Israel - 60 ZSU-23-4 in service with the Air Force as of 2010 th
            3. +4
              22 July 2015 00: 41
              Quote: atalef
              A rocket weighing 71 kg and 1.5 m long --- I won’t ask what, just - good luck

              In Afghanistan, Strela-2M Grad’s shell was shot down from the side to catch up, just the boys were amusing themselves at the same time consuming arrows that only occupied a place in the BMD warhead.
        2. +1
          22 July 2015 13: 20
          And who said that "sun-2" cannot hit UR ??????????
          1. 0
            24 July 2015 23: 01
            does the sun have a missile control system?
  2. +17
    21 July 2015 05: 55
    Quote: Afotin
    The article is very similar to propaganda.

    What does the article promote? request A car that will be written off in 5 years? By the way, the first "Taiuz" flew only 8 km. This is one of the reasons for the enhanced booking.
    1. +20
      21 July 2015 06: 07
      Quote: Aaron Zawi
      Quote: Afotin
      The article is very similar to propaganda.

      What does the article promote? request A car that will be written off in 5 years? By the way, the first "Taiuz" flew only 8 km. This is one of the reasons for the enhanced booking.

      I saw one such * tank * in the golan. Of course, in a stowed position, it is practically no different from an ordinary one. There was an impression of the strangeness of these boxes behind the tower, but I thought I probably got some crap for tools.
      And it’s like it. An interesting solution.
      At the same time, I have never heard from our tankers, and indeed from anyone that it exists - apparently the regime of secrecy was respected in full.
      Interestingly, it replaced him.
      1. +15
        21 July 2015 08: 59
        from the tankers they didn’t understand the bi because they gave it to the artillerymen, these "tanks" stood on the armored vehicles sayeret moran and sayret meitar as part of the artillery military
        1. +4
          21 July 2015 14: 19
          Quote: rero
          from the tankers they didn’t understand the bi because they gave it to the artillerymen, these "tanks" stood on the armored vehicles sayeret moran and sayret meitar as part of the artillery military

          In some ways, it’s logical: this is not a tank, but a self-propelled ATGM. And VET was originally the task of artillerymen.
          1. -5
            21 July 2015 15: 51
            Why it is unclear what kind of anti-Panzervaflu ...
            We have, Cornets where they stick without getting stuck, even in the Tigers wassat
            1. -3
              21 July 2015 19: 51
              I like this thing, an interesting approach.
              But the Eugeneans will now lay bricks typically for any reason laughing
              Uh atalef and the company of God's chosen ones, set aside a brick, cute look))
              1. -3
                22 July 2015 01: 48
                They can’t bricks, only flat cakes. laughing laughing laughing
      2. +12
        21 July 2015 21: 31
        It is the combination of an interesting design solution (missile launch unit), a camouflage solution and such a long curtain of secrecy that delights me. Do not pay attention to the minusers, BM is really interesting.
        Especially (I personally) was surprised by the combination of a retractable trigger unit with a radio-optical tracking unit. Well, the year of arming, also attracts attention.
        PS I did not see a word of propaganda, although I already read the article twice.
      3. +7
        21 July 2015 22: 08
        Quote: atalef
        And it’s like it. An interesting solution.
        At the same time, I have never heard from our tankers, and indeed from anyone that it exists - apparently the regime of secrecy was respected in full.

        And it looks like it, "Armata" had to be poured with slops from head to toe, and their "Earth Toad" would not be praised enough. Well, how is she her own, Israeli, she has no price. wink laughing
        1. -2
          21 July 2015 22: 59
          Well, and your quito "most glorious" Armata is overwhelmed? What do you want from your uncles?
          1. -2
            22 July 2015 01: 38
            Quote: Dan4eG
            Well, and your quito "most glorious" Armata is overwhelmed? What do you want from your uncles?

            It’s you that’s an uncle, for me, you look more like an aunt. Well, in general, your question is quito, atvichayu, your brothers are Hebrews. laughing
            1. -2
              22 July 2015 08: 16
              This is you uncle, for me, you look more like an aunt

              Wah malchik, if ty ne sovsem distinguishes the little boy from the girl, then ty light blue malcheg! wassat
      4. 0
        24 July 2015 20: 50
        Quote: atalef
        At the same time, I have never heard from our tankers, and indeed from anyone that it exists - apparently the regime of secrecy was respected in full.

        were they allowed to use it in battle? because after the shot, immediately the loss of secrecy sets in ... lol
  3. +9
    21 July 2015 06: 43
    Quote: atalef
    Interestingly, it replaced him.

    And it was replaced by something very similar to our air defense missile system "Tor" - missiles are launched vertically, and the missiles are not only anti-tank, but also "high-explosive" and "thermobaric" missiles. This machine is already without a tower with a powerful cannon, it was replaced by a remote-controlled module with a machine gun and a small-caliber cannon, and it seems that this creation also has its own "drone" and not one. Directly "wunderwaffle" of some kind.
    1. +8
      21 July 2015 06: 53
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      And it was replaced by something very similar to our air defense missile system "Tor" - missiles are launched vertically, and the missiles are not only anti-tank, but also "high-explosive" and "thermobaric" missiles. This machine is already without a tower with a powerful cannon, it was replaced by a remote-controlled module with a machine gun and a small-caliber cannon, and it seems that this creation also has its own "drone" and not one. Directly "wunderwaffle" of some kind.

      Well, if he has his own UAV - this is understandable. missiles sort of like over a range of 25 km
      We will see
    2. The comment was deleted.
  4. +9
    21 July 2015 07: 09
    googled

    The cost of one rocket for 2011 year is about 145 000 US dollars.

    The effective range of this missile is up to 25 kilometers. The weight of the rocket in the packaging container is 71 kilograms. The missile has an average speed on the trajectory: 130 — 180 m / s., Armor penetration up to 1000 mm of homogeneous steel armor. The complex can be used at temperatures from −32 to + 49 and is stored at temperatures from −45 to + 71.

    That is, a sort of javelin with great range and cost, with low flight speed ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +13
      21 July 2015 07: 13
      Quote: CruorVult
      The cost of one rocket for 2011 year is about 145 000 US dollars.

      Does the value of the rocket play a role? if it is guaranteed to destroy the tank. Dot, etc. - but not being in the affected area, not that. that not being and being many kilometers before it.
    3. +8
      21 July 2015 07: 28
      [/ Quote]
      Does the value of the rocket play a role? if it is guaranteed to destroy the tank. Dot, etc. - but not being in the affected area, not that. that not being and being many kilometers before it. [/ quote]

      Kanencho does not play, another thing is that the rocket needs additional guidance, this time, it will not be effective in the presence of air defense, these are two.

      For his theater of action, the thing is cool, no doubt.
      1. +4
        21 July 2015 09: 07
        Quote: CruorVult
        Kanencho does not play, another thing is that the rocket needs additional guidance, this time,

        nftamuz (as far as I know) does not require this, because there is an optical channel, but let's say, from the point of view of drones, we definitely have no problem
        Quote: CruorVult
        this time, it will not be effective in the presence of air defense, these are two.

        air defense? how are you going to shoot down tamuz?
        Quote: CruorVult
        Undoubtedly a cool thing for your theater of action

        for anyone .
        1. +2
          21 July 2015 10: 08
          Optical channel at 25 km?)))
          Or are you talking about the "optical channel" from drones? Well, a comrade told you that if there is air defense in the ranks of the column, there is not much chance ... practically no.

          At this speed, you can shoot down with an "awl", and you can shoot down with an "arrow" at such a speed.
          1. +4
            21 July 2015 12: 13
            I apologize, but doesn’t the arrow attack the catch-up courses?
            1. +4
              21 July 2015 16: 33
              Oncoming ones too. fellow
        2. +6
          21 July 2015 12: 07
          Quote: atalef
          air defense? how are you going to shoot down tamuz?


          A week ago, yours reported that the "iron dome" is now capable of shooting down UAVs, including high-speed small ones.

          Lied?
          1. +3
            21 July 2015 20: 09
            Quote: Spade
            A week ago, yours reported that the "iron dome" is now capable of shooting down UAVs, including high-speed small ones.

            Lied?

            I do not think that the LCD is able to bring down tamuz. This is not a UAV - a completely different speed, radius of use
    4. +6
      21 July 2015 15: 38
      Quote: CruorVult
      The cost of one rocket for 2011 year is about 145 000 US dollars.

      And how much is the enemy tank, perhaps more expensive?
      Here’s what I’ve dug up, maybe the information is not entirely accurate, but you can compare:
      T-72M 1,4 million $ US
      T-80UD "Bereza" US $ 2 million
      T-90S 2,4 million $ US
      BTR-80 300 thousand. $ US
      3 SU-23-4 "Shilka" 140 thousand US $
      М1А2 "Abrams" from 3,2 to 6,9 million US dollars
      "Leopard" up to $ 3 million US
      "Leklerk" up to $ 10 million US
      MCV-80 "Warrior" US $ 3,8 million
      M-2 Bradley US $ 1,2 million
      1. +1
        21 July 2015 19: 52
        You forgot to enter the cost of Merkava! Disorder, Abrams is, Leo is, Leclerc is, but there is no Merkava! Friendly fire does happen laughing
        1. +1
          22 July 2015 00: 04
          Leo is, Leclerc is, but there is no Merkava!

          Merkava is not for sale. There is no price. Tilka for sebe.
      2. 0
        24 July 2015 20: 58
        Quote: Bayonet
        And how much is the enemy tank, perhaps more expensive?
        Here’s what I’ve dug up, maybe the information is not entirely accurate, but you can compare:
        М1А2 "Abrams" from 3,2 to 6,9 million US dollars
        "Leopard" up to $ 3 million US
        "Leklerk" up to $ 10 million US
        MCV-80 "Warrior" US $ 3,8 million
        M-2 Bradley US $ 1,2 million

        skirts ... yes you already call your masters enemies ... Only do not say this to Amers, they’ll be offended
    5. +8
      21 July 2015 17: 45
      Quote: CruorVult
      The cost of one rocket for 2011 is about 145 US dollars ... That is, a sort of javelin with a huge range and cost ...

      At the same time, it destroys a tank at a price of $ 7,600,000.00 (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-14_Armata), but even a used T-72 at a price of only $ 1M, and with it 3 tankmen (here the price is different - from free if any thread Arabs or Negros oh, sorry, African non-Americans, and up to priceless if white people). At the same time, the tank is guaranteed not performs its task, and if it is done, it is very difficult to calculate the possible damage, but it will not seem enough. And all the pleasure only costs $ 145K. In my opinion it is profitable.Yesgood
      1. 0
        21 July 2015 19: 58
        Regarding the price of Almaty you are wrong. Seven million $ is the price of a prototype of Almaty, but not of a serial! On this occasion, representatives of UVZ themselves said that the price after the start of mass production will decrease significantly.
  5. 0
    21 July 2015 07: 18
    I did not quite understand his purpose. Is this some kind of ATGM on a tank platform? Something like our Chrysanthemum, only with a large reservation?
    1. +1
      21 July 2015 23: 22
      Yes, this is an ATGM on a tank platform.
    2. 0
      22 July 2015 00: 06
      I did not quite understand his purpose. Is this some kind of ATGM on a tank platform? Something like our Chrysanthemum, only with a large reservation?


      This is a self-propelled launcher of light tactical guided missiles.
      1. 0
        24 July 2015 21: 02
        in general, they saw what it was like to put ptura on a mess, and then for twenty years they thought how not to pay a license for the USSR, they even attached fake fluff.
  6. +10
    21 July 2015 07: 41
    Very not a standard idea! Israelis sometimes surprise with technology.
  7. +5
    21 July 2015 07: 43
    A wonderful apparatus. And the use of a pipe instead of a gun took place earlier, on the Odessa tanks "NI" - "To Fright".
    1. +3
      21 July 2015 21: 37
      Pay attention - on ODESSA tanks ... And now in Israel;)
      1. +1
        22 July 2015 17: 57
        Know how hula .... laughing
  8. +13
    21 July 2015 08: 20
    We had such a "dragon" tank in service at one time, but it was removed from service by the age of 80.
  9. -3
    21 July 2015 08: 35
    Here are cunning assholes ... Although ours also began to put ATGMs on tigers, but even it seems to me that I will cornet them as if to the moon ...
    1. +1
      24 July 2015 21: 10
      Quote: Alex_Rarog
      Although ours also began to put ATGM tigers

      our still began to put ATGM mess, in 1958
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2П32
  10. +3
    21 July 2015 08: 46
    MLRS from a specialized missile. Interesting both the approach to camouflage and the provision of "fire and forget" in the mid-80s.
    Is it possible to modify the Grad, Tornadoes and Hurricanes missile warheads to perform similar functions?
    1. +5
      21 July 2015 09: 10
      Quote: dzvero
      Is it possible to modify the Grad, Tornadoes and Hurricanes missile warheads to perform similar functions?

      no, maybe these missiles are uncontrollable
      Tamuz
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYB0X_UsMWM
    2. +1
      21 July 2015 16: 17
      Quote: dzvero
      Is it possible to modify the Grad, Tornadoes and Hurricanes missile warheads to perform similar functions?

      Why modify? Isn't it easier to take the same "tornado" 9M55K1 with self-aiming combat elements? Or similar "Gradovskaya 9M217.
      1. +5
        21 July 2015 18: 03
        It's not about the babakhalka, but the control. The warhead must first hit the target, and preferably from the right angle - the same Javelin hits from above, where the armor is thinner. With all my desire, I do not see where to cram mechanics, electronics, and a source of energy for the control system into the Grad. And if you manage to shove in the unpickable, then the price of "Grad" will be equal to the same "Tamuz". Meaning? The city is so good that it is cheap.
        1. +2
          21 July 2015 18: 43
          Quote: Nagan
          With all my desire, I do not see where to cram mechanics, electronics, and a source of energy for the control system into the Grad.

          In the combat element of a cluster warhead. smile
          NAR delivers the cassette to a given point, and then SPBE are thrown out and begin to play the old game: Ready or not, here I come. And they do their dirty work on the roof of the target.

          And you do not need to be wise with the management of the entire NAR.
    3. +1
      22 July 2015 00: 10
      Is it possible to modify the Grad, Tornadoes and Hurricanes missile warheads to perform similar functions?


      Equipped with anti-tank homing sub-ammunition. To destroy the columns on the march.

      But "Donkey" has a different principle. He's not an MLRS.
  11. 0
    21 July 2015 09: 03
    and didn’t go through the trunk?
    1. +4
      21 July 2015 09: 11
      Have been! Does not work!
    2. +10
      21 July 2015 10: 31
      A Lahat rocket is fired through the tank barrel.

      But in a rocket with a diameter of 120 mm it is impossible to obtain cumm. jet
      enough power to pierce modern tanks.

      Missile Tamuz Spike (Tamuz) -170 mm in diameter, which gives sufficient power
      cumm jet.
      1. +4
        22 July 2015 00: 17
        Missile Tamuz Spike (Tamuz) -170 mm in diameter, which gives sufficient power
        cumm jet.

        Yeah! Now everything is clear. The photo shows why high range and not super speed!

        And what is the EPR of this "corner reflector"?

        Still, the calculation of the weak air defense of the Arabs.
      2. 0
        24 July 2015 21: 21
        Quote: voyaka uh
        But in a rocket with a diameter of 120 mm it is impossible to obtain cumm. a stream of sufficient power to penetrate modern tanks.
        ...

        if you have failed, this does not mean that it is not possible at all, ours are breaking through. armor of modern tanks.
  12. avt
    -3
    21 July 2015 09: 26
    what What was it ??? wassat Your will, but someone is too smart in one bottle.
  13. -3
    21 July 2015 09: 38
    I think it's a "duck". An anti-tank vehicle with a combat height of four meters cannot be effective. Unless they teach her to bury herself in the ground like a lizard, in a couple of seconds lol . And the statements about the range of ATGM in 25 km are intended to hide it.
  14. +6
    21 July 2015 10: 11
    An interesting attempt to solve a problem in a western tank building school! it’s easier for us to launch a rocket through the barrel, although they have a smaller range! and at a distance of 25 km it is easier to use small artillery or carrier vehicles
    for cheaper tank)
    1. +9
      21 July 2015 10: 25
      it’s easier for us to launch a rocket through the barrel

      and the cornet through the trunk weakly run?
      and if it's simpler, why "chrysanthemum"?
      and at a distance of 25 km it is easier to use small artillery

      Yes Yes!
      two buildings under construction, in one of their owns in the other, not very actively firing, do we work with artillery?
      1. +2
        21 July 2015 11: 08
        )) and of course under such conditions shoot at the extreme range, right?

        And it is obligatory to shoot from the ATGM.


        And why, then, did the Israeli army, Merkavu with an airborne squad, do it?

        1. +3
          21 July 2015 11: 29
          and of course under such conditions shoot at extreme range

          Something your idea is not clear to me!
          And it’s obligatory to shoot from the ATGM

          why can’t you? if the enemy is not on the tanks then everything is pichalbeda?
          tamuz has already grown from a ptrk to a tactical missile, they hammer everything that interferes and creates problems!
          And why, then, did the Israeli army, Merkavu with an airborne squad, do it?

          you are confusing something! the landing squad is in the BMP and armored personnel carrier, and in merkava there is opportunity, unless of course pull out the ammunition and all the shelves, stuff someone there!
          1. 0
            21 July 2015 12: 58
            In general, for your task, you can successfully use tanks.


            And this device, first of all, is an anti-tank device.

            Again, with your + and -
            1. 0
              21 July 2015 14: 12
              In general, for your task, you can successfully use tanks

              possible if it’s fighting! what about special operations?
          2. 0
            24 July 2015 21: 29
            Quote: Dan4eG
            tamuz has already grown from a ptrk to a tactical missile, they hammer everything that interferes and creates problems!

            and who told you that they are hammering? they have a regime of secrecy, and only this explains the fact that for 30 years and not the only "conflict" with the Arabs, it is not known about it. They just do not use them, it turned out to be ineffective. In fact, this is just a PR move. And no more. There with the dome and other developments, they are shouting to the whole world, the tests are not finished yet.
        2. 0
          27 July 2015 18: 13
          Well, in Chechnya, some "cunning" guys used MANPADS in the mountains.
          We noticed a fire and not approaching the base ... Hre.nak!
          (from the words, he didn’t see it)
          1. 0
            29 July 2015 04: 00
            Quote: angel of hell
            Well, in Chechnya, some "cunning" guys used MANPADS in the mountains.
            We noticed a fire and not approaching the base ... Hre.nak!
            (from the words, he didn’t see it)

            Well, of course, from the words where you could see it ... If you served, you would know that the exhaust temperature of aircraft engines at afterburner is not more than 600 degrees. And the temperature of wood burning is in the region of 800-1000. The GOS has a function of sampling the signal by temperature, to increase noise immunity, and it reacts precisely to the temperature of the aircraft exhaust. When aiming at a bonfire, even target capture will not occur, and MANPADS simply will not fire. So you see "cunning guys" are a product of your imagination. Not to mention the use of MANPADs where there is no enemy aircraft. Is the head hot?
      2. +2
        21 July 2015 12: 09
        Quote: Dan4eG
        two buildings under construction, in one of their owns in the other, not very actively firing, do we work with artillery?

        Yes. Guided projectile. And what's the problem, actually?
        1. +3
          21 July 2015 12: 25
          the problem is in the backlight, the laser is needed by the "Krasnopole"!
          1. +4
            21 July 2015 12: 32
            And why immediately Krasnopol? This is the first generation UAS. And the world is already thinking about the fourth.

            The backlog of Russia in guided artillery weapons, a large backlog.
            1. +1
              21 July 2015 14: 16
              I rummaged a little and found:
              XM982 Excalibur
              An “intelligent” shot is expected to have a firing range of 40 to 57 km (depending on configuration) with a likely circular deviation (CVO) of about 10 m
              Control System: GNSS GPS / ANN
              Cost:
              Block 1a-1 - $ 232
              Block 1a-2 - $ 160
              CVO: 20 m

              20 meters ??????
          2. +4
            21 July 2015 15: 47
            Quote: Dan4eG
            the problem is in the backlight, the laser is needed by the "Krasnopole"!

            The "illuminator" will be immediately spotted (there is something fortunate) and immediately banged! This has long been understood. smile
            1. +6
              21 July 2015 16: 04
              Quote: Bayonet
              The "illuminator" will be immediately spotted (there is something fortunate) and immediately banged! This has long been understood.

              Honestly, I wonder why, for example, Hermes crashed at an altitude of 9000, at a distance of 50-60 kilometers from the target of illumination, or, for example, Eitan at 14 km. Even more interesting is how to spot and shoot down a Skylark whose ceiling is 5 km, weighs 7 kg and a wingspan of only 3 m, by the way it "works" up to 40 km. Special forces can still shine, there is even one who is sharpened for this. As I understand it, even in theory this is not easy, especially if air supremacy is not won.
      3. +1
        22 July 2015 18: 02
        DRG send)))))))))
    2. +6
      21 July 2015 18: 06
      Quote: MolGro
      for cheaper tank)
      Tanks, consider free (decommissioned), on the contrary, have saved on disposal. Plus the best protection and the ability to disguise as an ordinary tank.
  15. -18
    21 July 2015 10: 40
    This is an American old tank, what they did there at all, it’s not clear, a tank or BMP or BRDM, the Israelis always come up with something that’s not beautiful, bad taste !!
    1. +6
      21 July 2015 11: 28
      Quote: MilitaryKAZ
      it’s not clear tank or infantry fighting vehicle or infantry fighting vehicle,

      What ??? request
  16. +5
    21 July 2015 11: 28
    The car is interesting, but sharpened purely for the conditions of Israel and small states. Israel has only 50 km. from the Arab border to the sea - there is practically no depth for operational maneuver. Therefore they abandon the ATGM’s mobility in exchange for heavy armor and disguise the car under the tank in order to impede the enemy aviation and artillery gunners of the enemy as much as possible.

    On the battlefield, Pare will live longer than the usual ATGM in a jeep or armored personnel carrier. But this is a machine for positional defense, it cannot be maneuvered at the operational level.

    The advantages of maneuverable defense before positional were proved back in WWII. But if the state is 100x300 km in size. maneuverable defense disappears by default and only the option with positional remains.

    In the 1950s, the USSR also built missile tanks and heavily armored ATGMs, but later realized that maneuverability is better and more necessary for ATGMs than armor protection, and left this branch. Now the TOS "Buratino" and "Solntsepek" are heavily armored because their range is short and the vehicles have to be moved under enemy fire.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      21 July 2015 11: 51
      Quote: ivanovbg
      . Therefore, they abandon the ATGM’s mobility in exchange for heavy armor and disguise the car under the tank in order to impede enemy aircraft and enemy artillery guns as much as possible

      Absolutely untrue
      Look at the modifications (and this is only Spike)
      or check out
      http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/pturs.html

      Quote: ivanovbg
      But this is a machine for positional defense, it cannot be maneuvered at the operational level.

      Why
      1. +9
        21 July 2015 12: 34
        Quote: atalef

        Quote: ivanovbg
        But this is a machine for positional defense, it cannot be maneuvered at the operational level.

        Why


        Let's say you need to transfer ATGM to 300 km.

        If you send Perae on their own, the tracks will tear any asphalt and the road will become unusable. I am generally silent about rivers and bridges (for Israel they are irrelevant, but in Europe they are every 15-20 km.). Stomp along the roads - the speed will fall by 10-15 km and again the problem of bridges, tunnels, etc.

        It is possible to send autotrailers, but: 1. not every trailer will pull 45 t. 2. how many trailers will you need? 3. at what speed will the trailer go if 45 t is loaded on it? 4. how will you mask and protect the column of trailers crawling at the speed of a dead donkey? 5. how many bridges can 50 t withstand? (keep in mind that a standard truck with a trailer weighs 22 tons, most bridges are designed for 25-30 tons) 6. a trailer with Pare will not fit into every tunnel.

        There remains the option of transferring by train. You will need specially equipped freight railway stations at the places of loading and shipment, transport to and from the railway station, a separate railway platform for each car, camouflage, transfer time ... It will succeed in peacetime exercises, but in a real war it will be too long and noticeable.

        At the same time, the Russian Cornet-EM will travel 300 km in 12 hours on impassability (if traveling with 30 km / h + 2 hours of rest for the crew) or in 6 hours (50 km / h on any normal road).

        True, the Cornet is less tenacious on the battlefield. But if used wisely - mask 3-4 cars at any forest edge, give a volley from 5 km and leave 40-60 km / h after the volley, catch up. And then reloading and volley from another position, then from the third, then you can still overtake the 300-500 km in a day.

        Peer looks more solid, but after the first missile the enemy will hammer it with all means of destruction and sooner or later destroy it. Nowhere to go and hide such a colossus.

        1. -2
          21 July 2015 12: 41
          Quote: ivanovbg
          Let's say you need to transfer ATGM funds to 300 km.

          But why?
          Quote: ivanovbg
          At the same time, the Russian Cornet-EM will travel 300 km in 12 hours on impassability (if traveling with 30 km / h + 2 hours of rest for the crew) or in 6 hours (50 km / h on any normal road).

          And when they give him a command to occupy the line of deployment, he will heroically get stuck on arable land. Tightly. With all that it implies in the form of failure to complete the task and execution of the unit commander in the nearest ravine by the special forces.
          1. +7
            21 July 2015 12: 58
            Quote: Spade
            Quote: ivanovbg
            Let's say you need to transfer ATGM to 300 km.

            But why?


            Bulgaria state in 111 000 sq. km, the longest is 520 km, the width is 320 km. It's hard to call Bulgaria big. But our southern border is 917 km, 259 km from Turkey, 493 km from Greece and 165 km from Macedonia. We do not have enough money to cover the ATGM all 900 km. Our ATGMs at some distance from the border and in case of aggression must overcome 60-100 km in 3-4 hours (20-25 km / h is quite real speed for wheeled vehicles, even taking into account the opposition of the enemy and the failure of some roads). But this will not work with Peer - they lose to wheeled vehicles in speed, they won’t go everywhere, and where they go, they’ll trample everything.
            1. +1
              21 July 2015 13: 06
              The SPTRK role is always auxiliary. The first fiddle is played by the infantry. And therefore it will be possible to transfer the "Cornets" at a speed no more. than the speed of the motorized infantry units.
              1. +7
                21 July 2015 13: 14
                Infantry is everywhere - somewhere more, somewhere less. But the infantry cannot stand up to tanks alone. The meaning of mobile anti-tank systems is to quickly transfer them to threatened areas, fire, run away, fire again, after 12 hours - a blow to the flank and rear of the tanks that burst through, etc.

                Of course it’s good to have an 200-300 ATGM, but if the state is poor and their 20-30, they have to maneuver and mobility is an order of magnitude more important than armor protection.
                1. 0
                  21 July 2015 19: 43
                  Quote: ivanovbg
                  after 12 hours - a blow to the flank and rear of the erupted tanks, etc.

                  And will you have these 12 hours? During this time, enemy tanks can enter the operational space and cut off all the approaches of your reserves, and at the same time defeat the artillery positions and destroy headquarters and command posts. The enemy must be counterattacked as soon as possible and the frontiers of counterattacks are set in advance.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. +1
          21 July 2015 12: 43
          Quote: ivanovbg
          Suppose you need to transfer ATGM funds to 300 km. If you send Perae your own way, the tracks will tear any asphalt and the road will become unusable. I am generally silent about rivers and bridges (for Israel they are irrelevant, but in Europe they are every 15-20 km.). Stomp along the roads - the speed will fall by 10-15 km and again the problem of bridges, tunnels, etc.

          Excuse me (of course) Are you writing this all seriously, or are you kidding me?

          Quote: ivanovbg
          It is possible to send autotrailers, but: 1. not every trailer will pull 45 t. 2. how many trailers will you need? 3. at what speed will the trailer go if 45 t is loaded on it? 4. how will you mask and protect the column of trailers crawling at the speed of a dead donkey? 5. how many bridges can 50 t withstand? (keep in mind that a standard truck with a trailer weighs 22 tons, most bridges are designed for 25-30 tons) 6. a trailer with Pare will not fit into every tunnel.

          Kidding
          Quote: ivanovbg
          Peer looks more solid, but after the first missile the enemy will hammer it with all means of destruction and sooner or later destroy it. Nowhere to go and hide such a colossus

          sorry of course but
          1. +6
            21 July 2015 13: 09
            At first I did not understand, but now it seems to have cleared up. You have a desert and caterpillar equipment will pass everywhere, it will not get stuck anywhere and there is nothing to trample. But in Europe it is not at all like that in Russia either. We have such a machine will not pass 300 km. More precisely, it will pass, but defeats from it will be comparable with those that are tolerated by the enemy.
            1. +4
              21 July 2015 13: 40
              Quote: ivanovbg
              . You have a desert

              Israel has 8 climatic zones ranging from moderately hot humid in the north to arid and desert in the south. There are three vegetation zones in Israel: the Mediterranean, Iranian-Turanian and Saharo-Sindian. Desert and arid territories occupy 60% of the country's territory, and read all 95% like that. To transfer equipment to, until recently, the main tank theater, you need to go through such a terrain. Not the Himalayas and not the Alps, of course, but you need to take into account, you also need to take into account the specifics of the desert area. Already tired of these "Israeli technology is sharpened only for the desert, no mud, no water barriers," etc ...

              1. +4
                21 July 2015 15: 42
                Quote: Rumata
                Not the Himalayas or the Alps, of course, but you need to take into account, you also need to take into account the specifics of the desert area. Already tired of these "Israeli technology is sharpened only for the desert, no mud, no water barriers," etc ...

                And where are these mountains in the territory of the occupied Israeli military Palestine? smile
                1. +4
                  21 July 2015 15: 49
                  Quote: quilted jacket
                  And where are these mountains in the territory of the occupied Israeli military Palestine?

                  Padded jacket, do not crucify, I do not feed you for a long time and I am not going to begin. I can only condole, most of the Israelis from this site are dumped, or they just come in to read, feed you, a fat troll, only a few, and then probably from boredom. I only flooded to the Marshal and then there was bad luck, there are few Israelis left, most of you are in emergency situations and there is no one to copy-paste your sheets of text. How sad...
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. +3
                    21 July 2015 20: 37
                    Quote: Rumata
                    most Israelis dumped from this site

                    Tired of evading answers to questions about the validity of the use of white phosphorus in residential areas and other war crimes of the "chosen people", from which even "Uncle Sam" is tired of covering up by vetoing any UN resolutions condemning your irrepressible bloodthirstiness and greed for new territories?
                    1. -4
                      21 July 2015 20: 40
                      Quote: serverny
                      tired of evading answers to questions about the justification for using white phosphorus in residential areas and other war crimes of the "chosen people",

                      Yah? By what court were these "crimes" recognized, mister sovramshi?

                      PS
                      "the chosen people"

                      "God of the Chosen People", for that matter. laughing
                      For you are a holy people with God, your Almighty: your God Almighty has chosen you, so that you will be his people, chosen from all the nations that are on the face of the earth. Not because you are more numerous than other nations, God desired you and chose you, because you are fewer than all nations; but out of God's love for you and for the sake of observing the oath that he gave to your fathers, God led you with a powerful hand and freed you from the house of slavery, from the power of the pharaoh, king of Egypt.

                      Dvarim 7: 6-8
                      1. +5
                        21 July 2015 21: 29
                        Quote: professor
                        "god of the chosen people", for that matter

                        Be so kind as to provide documents with signatures, stamps and other pribludes that confirm this so-called “God’s chosenness.” Or at least show the chronicle, preferably a video, photos will also come down. I want to see God and representatives of the Jewish people at the time of the conclusion of the contract ...
                      2. 0
                        21 July 2015 21: 57
                        Quote: Krasmash
                        Be so kind as to provide documents with signatures, stamps and other pribludes that confirm this so-called “God’s chosenness.” Or at least show the chronicle, preferably a video, photos will also come down. I want to see God and representatives of the Jewish people at the time of the conclusion of the contract ...

                        Drop in at the Holy Protection Cathedral on the street. Surikova, 26, there you will be presented with a dock. You can call 222-37-70.
                      3. +1
                        21 July 2015 22: 03
                        Quote: professor
                        Drop in at the Holy Protection Cathedral on the street. Surikova, 26, there you will be presented with a dock. You can call 22-37-70.

                        laughing laughing laughing
                        I cannot enter this church. My health there immediately worsens.
                        By the way, we have seven-digit telephone numbers

                        You don’t need to speak your teeth. Mythology, fairy tales and notions are not interested. Come on real confirmation.
                      4. 0
                        21 July 2015 22: 19
                        Quote: Krasmash
                        You don’t need to speak your teeth. Mythology, fairy tales and notions are not interested. Come on real confirmation.

                        Okay, go to the temple of the Holy Martyr Tatiana, the one on Prospekt Mira 88 (from the side of Kirov Street). You can park on Kirov street near the pink house that painted the graffiti. Well, the one against the Children's World. There they will confirm everything. I agreed, say from Sokolov. Good luck. hi
                      5. -1
                        21 July 2015 22: 27
                        Dragging into an Orthodox church for such infofool
                        It must be sent to Surikov 65.
                        In short, the professor sulked, cannot confirm invented the exclusivity of their people.
                      6. -1
                        22 July 2015 07: 40
                        Quote: Krasmash
                        Dragging into an Orthodox church for such info

                        The master is the master. There would have been evidence.

                        Quote: Krasmash
                        It must be sent to Surikov 65.

                        Duc there is not a large synagogue, all the curious will not accommodate.

                        Quote: Krasmash
                        In short, the professor sulked, can not confirm the fictional exclusivity of his people.

                        Here is from the contract. Original at the address indicated by me. The topic is closed.

                        And Moshe ascended to the Almighty, and God called to him from the mountain, saying: "So speak to the house of Jacob and tell the children of Israel: you saw what I did to Egypt, but I raised you on eagle's wings and brought you to Me. And now, If you obey Me and observe My covenant, then you will be chosen by Me from all nations, for Mine is the whole earth, and you will be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

                        Shemoth 19: 3-6
                      7. 0
                        22 July 2015 12: 45
                        Quote: professor
                        The master is the master. There would have been evidence.

                        In general, I went to Tatyana. Oleg came from Sokolov, and they say to me there, we are in the know, but go straight to the synagogue wink
                        Quote: professor
                        Duc there is not a large synagogue, all the curious will not accommodate.

                        And you are knowledgeable.
                        Quote: professor
                        The original at my address

                        Well, it doesn’t draw on serious proof. We’ll wait for more substantial things, otherwise we will get together with the guys, take them on our chests and write that the Russians were the dominant nation and controlled the owners of the Jews - the Egyptians.
                        Live happily youth and your imagination beats a fountain.
                      8. +2
                        22 July 2015 12: 48
                        Quote: Krasmash
                        Well, it does not pull on a serious proof.

                        And you ask the priest there. He will lay his bones, he will not regret his stomach that the document is genuine. He will also call his coming to witnesses. In short, the topic is closed.
                      9. 0
                        22 July 2015 12: 59
                        Quote: professor
                        In short, the topic is closed.

                        Well, I'm sorry, I didn’t know that for Jews this is a burning topic and they are very upset when God’s election is called into question.
                      10. +1
                        24 July 2015 21: 44
                        Quote: professor
                        Here is from the contract. Original at the address indicated by me. The topic is closed.

                        there is not the original, but a modern copy that you yourself do not recognize, for 1500 years ago you transformed your torus, and now this phrase does not apply to you.
                      11. +1
                        21 July 2015 21: 45
                        Quote: professor
                        God of the Chosen People ", for that matter

                        Well, we are not alone in this list
                        Moreover, no one requires any evidence (this is for Krasmash)
                      12. +2
                        22 July 2015 00: 38
                        Well, we are not alone in this list

                        We are all children of the Adam. And Almighty with Everyone. By his faith.
                      13. +1
                        24 July 2015 21: 51
                        Quote: atalef
                        Well, we are not alone in this list
                        Moreover, no one requires any evidence (this is for Krasmash)

                        Well, that's right, because there are enough brains to understand that the phrase "God is with us" does not mean a declaration of God's chosenness, therefore there is no need for proof, that's just what happens to these brains later, why such statements are voiced ... request
                      14. +1
                        26 July 2015 21: 16
                        Quote: atalef
                        Quote: professor
                        God of the Chosen People ", for that matter
                        Well, we are not alone in this list

                        When Adam plowed and Eve spun, which of them was Jewish (Jewish?) And Russian (Russian)? wink
                    2. +2
                      21 July 2015 23: 38
                      Quote: serverny
                      tired of evading answers to questions about the justification for using white phosphorus in residential areas and other war crimes of the "chosen people"

                      =) I’m a chemist, and I’ve been tired of explaining to everyone ignoramus about white phosphorus for a long time, about 5 years already for sure. There are a lot of xenophobes, especially now when inadequate people from all over the Internet are flocking to VO, but there are few of us. Each student must explain this by quitting work and eating a doshirak. Although I forgot, we are all on the salary of Mossad \ Masons \ ZOG, and then with your claims call the complaint service - 666-666-666, from any number, you can go on the rail ...
                      1. -2
                        22 July 2015 02: 26
                        Quote: Rumata
                        I'm a chemist

                        So do combat poison gases.
                        Quote: Rumata
                        especially now when inadequate flocks from all over Runet

                        This upsets you a lot, let's talk about experiences.
                        Quote: Rumata
                        Every student needs to explain that he needs to quit his job and eat a doshirak

                        And I have a Jewish friend who loves vodka and doshir very much.
                        Quote: Rumata
                        Although I forgot, we are all on the salary of Mossad \ Masons \ ZOG

                        Not all, but many. You understand, it will be insulting to us to believe you, and then to be deceived. One of yours, he stands right now under the chase of Kaiten. I directly said, Jews should be trusted carefully. I will rephrase it and I will say this, Jews are generally better does not believe because they are hypothetically imprisoned under a lie.
                      2. +1
                        22 July 2015 02: 49
                        Quote: Krasmash
                        I will rephrase it and say this, Jews generally do not believe better because they are hypothetically imprisoned under lies.

                        I haven’t thrown it in an emergency for a long time, it's time to fix it. Good luck
                      3. 0
                        22 July 2015 08: 05
                        Quote: Krasmash
                        Jews generally do not believe better because they are hypothetically imprisoned under lies.

                        Moderator Do not sleep at the post. How will you punish for breaking the rules?
                        From me personally, the last warning. The next similar attack will send you in an emergency to the quilted jacket for life. I was in a hurry to release all sorts of ...
                  3. +1
                    22 July 2015 13: 36
                    Quote: Rumata
                    few Israelis left

                    Is that bad? All the same, from you only bile and hatred towards Russia and its allies, you are not able to say anything particularly "smart" or "good".
                    Quote: Rumata
                    there is no one to copy their sheets of text

                    At least I support my words with quotes from articles, but you are only engaged in frank, unconfirmed lies.
                    Quote: Rumata
                    How sad...

                    Cry again lol
                    1. +1
                      26 July 2015 20: 50
                      we don’t need anything from Russia, the main thing is that Russia doesn’t need anything from us ,,
                      all his life, Israel fought against Russian weapons, with Soviet instructors, and other evil spirits, in fraternal Arab troops .. and your S300. that they took care of the Syrian nuclear plant, and your tanks, that went 300 against our 87, and the heads in the main headquarters, that flew for a lie about the great Russian weapons .. so what is it all about ??
                      1. 0
                        26 July 2015 21: 26
                        Quote: Dr. Vasya
                        we don’t need anything from Russia, the main thing is that Russia doesn’t need anything from us ,,
                        all his life, Israel fought against Russian weapons, with Soviet instructors, and other evil spirits, in fraternal Arab troops .. and your S300. that they took care of the Syrian nuclear plant, and your tanks, that went 300 against our 87, and the heads in the main headquarters, that flew for a lie about the great Russian weapons .. so what is it all about ??

                        Let's clarify. stop
                        Syria did not sell the S-300 precisely after consultations with the Israeli government - Putin mentioned this in another of his speeches. And when the Arab (but not ours!) Tanks went to the Jewish ones by a huge margin - most of the current Israeli regulars in VO could well consider them as their own, since they were mainly supplied by the USSR, and these regulars were citizens of the USSR.
                        And what about the lies "about the great Russian weapons" - what can you do - these are allies the Soviet leaders chose for themselves on the BV. request In other places - in Korea, in Vietnam, and in many other places where there were Arabs, Soviet and Russian weapons proved to be excellent. By the way, from that armada of Arab tanks of Soviet origin, a part was trophy, and proved to be excellent in fighting for Israel. Technique in the hands of a savage is a pile of metal!
                2. +1
                  22 July 2015 18: 18
                  Syrian Golan Heights?
              2. +1
                22 July 2015 00: 34
                Israel has 8 climatic zones, from moderately hot to humid in the north to arid and desert in the south. In Israel, there are three plant zones of the Mediterranean, Iranian-Turan and Saharan Sindi. Desert and arid territories occupy 60% of the territory of the country, and all of you 95% read it.


                Yes Yes. We all know that Israel is a big country. Especially from north to south.
                But the conditions of the theater are still specific. It’s rare where you find it.
        4. +5
          21 July 2015 16: 07
          Quote: ivanovbg
          It is possible to send autotrailers, but: 1. not every trailer will pull 45 tons.

          Carry and do not complain! smile
        5. +3
          22 July 2015 00: 27
          Well, you, my friend ivanovbg BG and loaded the Israelis! good They live in the belief that the technology is perfect, and others do not have it just because Israel does not sell! And you tell them about bridges and tunnels! Rzhu! Well done! hi
    3. -1
      21 July 2015 12: 45
      In fact, not a single PERE has been knocked down for 30 years, so the conclusion is dubious.
      There are other systems for maneuver, such as LAR-160 for example.
      smile
      1. +6
        21 July 2015 13: 03
        Did Peer participate in major military conflicts, against real aircraft and enemy artillery? In a real war, little will seem. The concept of highly mobile ATGM in jeeps (Cornet) and lightly armored vehicles (Chrysanthemum) many times better.
        1. +1
          21 July 2015 13: 21
          The real aircraft in the confrontation with the IDF will not be at all PERE, in other matters as well as artillery which will try to restrain the offensive.
          1. +5
            21 July 2015 13: 26
            You are an optimist :) This will only take place against irregular units like Hizbul, IS, etc. But they have no tanks either (well, 3-5 units at most in the entire "army").
            1. 0
              21 July 2015 13: 54
              Quote: ivanovbg
              You are an optimist :) This will only take place against irregular units like Hizbul, IS, etc. But they have no tanks either (well, 3-5 units at most in the entire "army").

              To listen to you is so easy to fight against partisans. The reality is that Israel, like any other country with a strong army, is easier to fight a division into a division than to catch partisans in the mountains. This has been proven in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Chechnya, once again in Afghanistan, once more in Chechnya, again in Lebanon, Iraq, etc., etc. In an open war, it would take less time to destroy the Syrian army than the Second Lebanese against the partisans.
              1. +3
                21 July 2015 22: 09
                Quote: Rumata
                The realities are that Israel, like any other country with a strong army, is easier to fight a division into a division than to catch partisans in the mountains.

                ====
                after such a fight, the howl will rise to the whole planet, for the Israelis have more victims than victims
            2. -2
              21 July 2015 13: 54
              Against any pass, read about the 1982 war.
          2. +1
            21 July 2015 21: 56
            The real aircraft in the confrontation with the IDF will not be at all PERE, in other matters as well as artillery which will try to restrain the offensive.

            Forgive me for interfering in international dialogue, but the question arose: who and whose attack will deter? IDF gathered on a campaign against the Arabs?
            PS The question is removed, below I read the tactics of using tank forces of Israel.
          3. +3
            22 July 2015 18: 29
            What are you saying? belay I guess I'm scared laughing
        2. 0
          21 July 2015 14: 24
          nifiga is not better! the chassis is mobile, but the shot itself is fired only from open positions! for 10 km the cornet will fly about 40 seconds, and all this time stand in an open place. tamuz can also be sent from behind a slide, so you can’t even see the launcher!
        3. 0
          26 July 2015 20: 54
          forgot to add., PERE is connected to the central guidance system, and works in conjunction with all the attacking means.
      2. 0
        21 July 2015 17: 37
        And where did this super-secret ATGM have time to fight? Most likely there are a dozen or two samples that are protected and released only for maneuvers. And who foolishly "burned" in front of the camera)
      3. +1
        22 July 2015 18: 24
        And they, excuse me, have thrashed many tank columns? Joe is your so elusive .....
    4. +10
      21 July 2015 14: 26
      "But if a state with a size of 100x300 km. Maneuverable defense disappears by default and only the option with positional" ////

      You are very mistaken. All IDF tactics are geared specifically for maneuvering
      defense. First, the army goes on the offensive on enemy territory
      (I don’t have a place to turn around). Deepens. But when meeting with the main (advancing) enemy forces, it begins to slowly retreat, moving from one position (using the terrain) to another.
      Not getting close. The goal is to bleed the enemy, with minimal losses.
      The tactics were invented by the British in World War II, desperate to outplay Rommel in the offensives. Namely, British enthusiastic officers (like Wingate) trained Israeli self-defense forces at the very beginning of the journey. The Merkava-2 tank has 4 forward gears and 5 reverse gears just to retreat without a turn.
      In the Arab-Israeli wars, Arab tankers "pressed on the gas" and then, unexpectedly for
      they found that 3/4 of their tanks were already damaged by fire from afar, although they themselves
      have not yet begun to shoot accurately.
      1. +6
        21 July 2015 21: 17
        Quote: voyaka uh

        In the Arab-Israeli wars, Arab tankers "pressed on the gas" and then unexpectedly for themselves discovered that 3/4 of their tanks had already been damaged by fire from afar, although they themselves had not yet begun to shoot aimed.


        Deserved victory against the enemy, which excelled you 3-4 times. I have never had a high opinion of the fighting ability of the Arabs.
    5. +1
      21 July 2015 18: 29
      But this is a machine for positional defense; it cannot be maneuvered at the operational level.


      Don't tanks maneuver at the operational level?

      What do you think is the radius of the line beyond which it becomes "operational?
      1. +1
        21 July 2015 21: 04
        Tactical combat zone up to 50 km - regiment
        Operational and tactical 50-150 km - brigade
        Operational 150 - 500 km - division
        Strategic from 500 km and above - army

        As part of one battles (which may consist of several strikes and battles on different days) is the maximum range of maneuvers of the described units. If the enemy is serious, the forces of one regiment cannot break through his defenses, secure the flanks and advance for more than 50 km. Those. it is possible, but in a day or two the presumptuous regiment will be surrounded and destroyed if its actions do not reinforce other compounds. And this is already shifting the level of hostilities from tactical to operational-tactical.

        10 Cornet-EM (in jeeps) will cover 300 km in a maximum of 10-12 hours, if you go off-road, and on a good road it is possible for 4-5 hours, if aviation does not annoy and the curfew will quickly push them through traffic jams, which are inevitable formed during any war.

        With the 45 t. Tracked vehicle, such a trick will not work. At best, they will travel 300 km. per day, if you’re very lucky, but really - in 2-3 days. One exception - if you are traveling in the desert, where there is nothing to trample and there are no rivers and bridges, you can keep within 12-14 hours.
        1. +2
          22 July 2015 06: 06
          ivanovbg
          10 Cornet-EM (in jeeps) will cover 300 km in a maximum of 10-12 hours, if you go on the road, and on a good road you can in 4-5 hours,


          I served in the tank reconnaissance battalion (riding jeeps)

          it is not possible to go 300 km in 10-12 hours on the road.

          on a good road it is also not possible to cover 300 km in 4-5 hours. roads of a country in a state of war lose bandwidth, sometimes at times.

          it looks like you have transferred the driving speeds you knew from fishing trips and out of town on the highway to military realities.
          1. +3
            22 July 2015 18: 14
            Quote: Maki Avellievich

            I served in the tank reconnaissance battalion (riding jeeps)

            it is not possible to go 300 km in 10-12 hours on the road

            + and huge. Here, in general, few people have an idea of ​​what the usual 8-hour patrol on jeeps (air-conditioned) on fairly smooth country roads does with a human carcass. After 12 hours on the road, from the cars will be removed, the likeness of human bodies, they will be shaken out of the armor and unloading.
  17. 0
    21 July 2015 11: 36
    AMX-13 and AT-3
  18. -19
    21 July 2015 12: 14
    How wretched these pseudo-tanks are. It is clear that, not from a good life, the Jews went to the creation of these monsters, but I am proud of our T-80 and T-90, which can launch rockets through a gun.
    1. +13
      21 July 2015 12: 26
      "Merkavas" also know how to "fire rockets through a gun"
    2. 0
      22 July 2015 11: 30
      Wow, how they threw them with sleepers ... Actually, I'm not a leavened urapatriot, who writes something like "Hurray !!! Russia forward! Know ours, we'll get them!" For every article on this site. - such I have met here and tried to bypass, because the truth is always not one-sided. The fact is that I REALLY have not heard that in the existing armies of the World they were used as widely as in Russia tanks with the ability to launch missiles through the barrel of a gun. Gentlemen with sleepers, behave in an adult way - if you take the time to minus - take the time and tell what and how, because I am not a military teacher, I’m just a school teacher and I will be happy with new information, but I haven’t found anything worthwhile on the network. Here comrade Lopatov wrote that the Merkavas also practice this. Well, I will know. And also?
      Sincerely.
      1. +1
        24 July 2015 19: 29
        Well, I will know. And also?


        And also, 120-mm and 125-mm ATGMs are generally not quite comme il faut, because the caliber is limited by the bore => modern tanks do not penetrate the forehead. Modern ATGMs have a larger missile diameter than the calibers of tank guns. "Cornets" - 152 mm. "HOT-2" - 150 mm.
        "TOW-2" - 152 mm. For a cumulative warhead, the diameter of the funnel (and, accordingly, the diameter of the ammunition) is critically important.

        PS Perhaps the appearance of 152 mm tank guns will make tank missiles relevant again. Rumors are rumors, and to see such a gun on the T-14 (as well as the machine itself) is quite realistic in the next few years.
      2. 0
        25 July 2015 09: 57
        Hello! Gentlemen with a minuscule! Well, where are your (minimum 17) references to a herd of foreign tanks that can also launch rockets through a gun? Or will you repeat everything about Merkava to me?

        SkiF_RnD, thanks for the answer, but since it’s such a futile - why the heck are our T80, T90 and promising (it’s not going to go to the army soon) T14 are equipped with this option? Or are our designers unrealistically stupid, and take up space in the ammunition for missiles instead of hammering everything with shells, simply because of their stupidity?
        1. -1
          25 July 2015 10: 34
          Quote: Nova
          Hello! Gentlemen with a minuscule! Well, where are your (minimum 17) references to a herd of foreign tanks that can also launch rockets through a gun? Or will you repeat everything about Merkava to me?

          Why are you so tense? What is the problem of equipping any tank with a German cannon with a system to launch missiles through the barrel? wink
          Do you recognize?

        2. +2
          25 July 2015 10: 40
          SkiF_RnD, thanks for the answer, but since it’s such a futile - why the heck are our T80, T90 and promising (it’s not going to join the army soon) T14 are equipped with this option? Or are our designers unrealistically stupid, and take up space in the ammunition for missiles instead of hammering everything with shells, simply because of their stupidity?


          Take it easy, dear. TURs are not useless, any tin can thinner than a tank will be opened at once. Well, on board - and the tank too. I'm not saying that it's bad that our tanks have KUV - this is a useful option, in the BC there are usually 4 pieces of them, if I don’t get confused, the pocket doesn’t pull, they threw minuses to you because the "Spike" on the subject of this article is higher power than our tank 125-mm "Reflex". These are not analogues.

          Well, the herd is also possible - ours, of course, Ukrainian, Chinese (based on the Soviet base), Israeli LAHAT is on carrots, and he can also sing and dance ("Arjun" MK1). On "Challengers" it is impossible without replacing the weapon (rifled), the rest simply do not want to. The story that this is incredible know-how and in general "no one else can" is nonsense, they do not want to. If you don't understand, just believe it. Sincerely. hi
          1. 0
            8 August 2015 16: 00
            This is not me easier, it is customary here to mysteriously remain silent after minuscation, without explanation. You are the first who tried to explain at least something to me, and only after my sarcasm, to which, apparently, you didn’t quite recognize it, you reacted above. Thanks for the answer.
  19. +3
    21 July 2015 12: 23
    They are engaged in nonsense ... The tank base for this kind of SPTRK is stupidity and inappropriate spending of funds. However, they have much more adequate options.
    1. +17
      21 July 2015 14: 36
      It's just that Pattons M-60 are like mud. They were all written off. Their chassis is not bad.
      Armor is not a luxury, but not a Humvee after all smile . Why not use what is?
      I would have pulled out a false tank gun with the root, and so - completely nothing
      rocket launcher.
    2. +8
      21 July 2015 16: 05
      Quote: Spade
      They are engaged in nonsense ... The tank base for this kind of SPTRK is stupidity and inappropriate spending of funds. However, they have much more adequate options.

      This is today, when "Tamuz" is working on 25 km. And the first ones worked on 8. Then the idea of ​​creating such machines and heavy ATGMs came after the USSR drove T-1983s from 72 to several hundred a year. Taking into account the experience of 73 years, it was decided to create an additional crap for the armored vehicles of Syria.
  20. +2
    21 July 2015 12: 24
    Quote: Nova
    T-80 and T-90, which can produce rockets through the gun.

    They might correct me here, but most modern tanks can launch missiles through guns
    1. -1
      21 July 2015 12: 30
      To be honest, I have never heard of this about Abrams or Leopard 2. Maybe Leclerc knows how, but he is a fairly young tank, maybe the French have thought of the same.
      1. +2
        21 July 2015 15: 22
        Teaching a tank to fire guided missiles is not a problem now - God knows when the Americans taught the M551 Sheridan. Another question (which you are stubbornly reminded of) is the caliber. How many T-90s? 125 mm, right? The Americans were going, until they got out of the way with the Germans, to put on the MVT-70. Moreover, 152 mm. And then they completely refused, to see the experience of the M552 and M60A2 prompted - you shouldn't do this. Maybe they are, of course, stupid, but I don’t think that to that extent.
        1. +1
          21 July 2015 17: 42
          "Sheridan" was created as a "rocket" tank with the ability to fire shells. Damn came out lumpy, so he is not an example.
      2. 0
        22 July 2015 18: 18
        http://topwar.ru/33754-zarubezhnye-tankovye-upravlyaemye-boepripasy.html
    2. +5
      21 July 2015 12: 45
      Almost all! but somehow launching a 200 mm caliber rocket through the barrel is awesome! barrel from naval artillery!
      and tank missiles are more a projectile than a missile! IMHO
      1. 0
        22 July 2015 11: 24
        Since everyone can, why not? I am about launching missiles through a tank gun.
        1. +3
          22 July 2015 14: 48
          Quote: Nova
          Since everyone can, why not? I am about launching missiles through a tank gun.

          Everyone can and everyone does. But you can not compare, read above about the caliber.
    3. +5
      21 July 2015 16: 42
      Quote: Rumata
      but most modern tanks can launch missiles through guns

      Even if the diameter of the rocket is twice the size of the barrel? smile Voyaka already wrote - "in a rocket with a diameter of 120 mm it is impossible to get a cumulative jet
      enough power to pierce modern tanks.
      Missile Tamuz Spike (Tamuz) -170 mm in diameter, which gives sufficient power
      kumm jet. "Yes, and not the tank" Pere ", you know? It just outwardly" mows "under the tank in order to mislead the enemy! And it looks like some of the participants in the smilewho persistently interpret about missiles launched from a tank gun!
      1. +2
        21 July 2015 17: 05
        Quote: Bayonet
        Even if the diameter of the rocket is twice the size of the barrel?

        Here the context is different. The man wrote that the Israelis are building all sorts of monsters, thank God we have tanks that can launch rockets through the barrel, comparing the incomparable. I objected that many tanks can do this. I can clearly see the difference =)
        1. +4
          21 July 2015 17: 33
          Quote: Rumata
          Here the context is different. The man wrote that the Israelis are building all sorts of monsters

          Clear! If this car was ours, that person would praise it ... wink
          1. +2
            21 July 2015 19: 38
            And why are you surprised, is it really not clear if the Russian technology is "not having an analogue in the world", or at worst "we are all over our heads", and if it is Israeli, then: propaganda, to drive Palestinian children; cheap PR. Look how many posts on the topic and everything is not ochem.
            1. +4
              22 July 2015 00: 46
              Take a look at how many posts on the topic and not everything.

              There are a lot of blizzards, but if it is thrown back, everyone closed both the PU and the RS, and the disguise and - most importantly - the regime of secrecy in Israel. Since 1981 - YES!
            2. +1
              22 July 2015 01: 04
              Take a look at how many posts on the topic and not everything.

              There are a lot of snowstorms, but if it is thrown back, everyone will check out both the PU and the RS, and the disguise and - most importantly - the regime of secrecy in Israel. Since 1981 - YES!

              Thanks again to the author. Extremely interesting material, which caused a very interesting discussion!
  21. +6
    21 July 2015 12: 42
    A range of 25 km is very problematic in terms of protection against this complex. If you do not take into account the conditions:
    - urban and suburban buildings;
    - woodland;
    - fog;
    - rain;
    1. -1
      22 July 2015 18: 21
      https://www.google.co.il/search?q=tamuz+missile&biw=1366&bih=643&site=webhp&tbm=
      vid&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI96nG_oTvxgIVARMUCh1tQQD8&dpr=1
  22. +1
    21 July 2015 14: 20
    Means of destruction of armored vehicles in the depths, at the deployment lines (this system is for this purpose). is not nothing. Here, artillery can (moreover, should) work, but I am generally silent about army aviation.

    A system at the frontiers. only a tank destroyer and crowbar.

    No need to worry about channel protection. nor about blurring the comulative jet with screens or DZ, and AZ will not have time to intercept.

    And during the shelling (tanks without artillery support do not go, or they will instantly call). Do not damage the delicate gut of the PT system with a small splinter.
  23. +20
    21 July 2015 15: 12
    Damn, why don’t you really understand the chips?
    It is indistinguishable from a tank from 500 meters. No one will expect such a pendal in the form of missiles wink
    Intelligence reported - are the tanks, how much is the range of the tanks? Let it be 10km. Ok, you can transfer several (10-20-30) pieces of equipment at a distance of 12-15 km from the tanks to the left (right, underline) edge, i.e. it’s safe. And here it can fly and fly not weakly. That's the thing about this car, in my deep IMHO lol
    Or acting a little behind the tanks to give cover, again, if the reconnaissance is working, the distance is approximately known, they will not expect missiles. And do not immediately tear the vest, our tanks broke all through the trunk bully This is another car for their tasks. Those who created it probably understood its mission and mission in battle. And do not compare with the tank, it is not a tank. drinks
    1. +2
      21 July 2015 17: 08
      This will only work once. Having lost once 10-15 vehicles on the march, the enemy will be careful. And you underestimate the intelligence of the enemy. With 500, you really can't tell Perae from a tank, but now even journalists have intelligence drones. The Arab sheikhs will somehow throw themselves on such a toy, because they are not poor.
      1. 0
        21 July 2015 21: 43
        Quote: ivanovbg
        The Arab sheikhs will somehow throw themselves on such a toy, because they are not poor.

        The Arab sheikhs are their allies. This one especially surprises me, I don’t even know how to formulate it, let it be pornography. Saudi Wahhabism and Zionism twist love. Yes, Er-Riadists should first of all destroy the descendants of Moses’s contemporaries, and not the Persians. And other Arabs Jews are afraid that there is no maze at all, if some Syrian / Egyptian / Jordanian learns to control a drone, this event will already be unheard of.
        1. +2
          22 July 2015 00: 38
          Quote: Krasmash
          if any Syrian / Egyptian / Jordanian learns to control a drone, this event will already be unheard of.

          That is why they will not distinguish a "PER" from a tank. And the Saudis have no common border with Israel, but they have a common enemy (the Ayatollahs).
          1. -1
            22 July 2015 02: 00
            Quote: Nagan
            but there is a common enemy (ayatollahs).

            Yes, I said that it was this fact that surprised me. All the evil from Muslims comes from the Wahhabis, and the Iranians are suddenly bad. Your Mr. Nagan Jews, probably already worked on computer simulators to destroy Iran.
        2. +2
          22 July 2015 01: 06
          some Syrian / Egyptian / Jordanian learns to control
          You are deeply mistaken about the Jordanians. And in Syria and Egypt there are social strata that are quite capable of coping with high-tech tasks. Another question is whether such tasks are in their doctrine. Apparently not.
          1. 0
            22 July 2015 01: 45
            Quote: tilix
            some Syrian / Egyptian / Jordanian learns to control
            You are deeply mistaken about the Jordanians. And in Syria and Egypt there are social strata that are quite capable of coping with high-tech tasks.

            Oh, Sasha, I missed you. smile
            To cope with high-tech tasks is to knock on the buttons of the keyboard, under the supervision of specialists from Russia or the USA?
            1. 0
              22 July 2015 02: 31
              Quote: Krasmash
              Cope with high-tech tasks

              Yeah .. and still not far - in India, there are many programmers ..

              Eyes would not look at them .. repaired a couple of times after them - spit out, and turned completely gray laughing
              1. 0
                22 July 2015 02: 35
                By the way, you spoke about them the other day. I laughed heartily. I heard that Indian programmers work very successfully in one overseas vile country.
                1. +1
                  22 July 2015 02: 44
                  Quote: Krasmash
                  By the way, you talked about them the other day

                  In order not to talk too much (I'm to myself) - link: http://www.epicor.com/russia/products/iscala.aspx

                  I worked for this office for seven years, it happened (before that I had been working in the market for a year. They stopped paying my salary in my box .. and my daughter was a year old, and he wants to eat a child, yeah ..).

                  There were these Indians ... freshly employed.

                  The system is written in a baseball of the 76th year of the sample, the EPP, yeah .. and here these .. kind people were let in, damn it ..

                  What these guys called the "commercial version" - I and the team (3 people, yeah) altered it in the "fire, burn !!" - 2 months.

                  Something like this .. and the guys, meanwhile, were organizing amateur competitions in the office .. like - "we have a rich culture" .. mmm Yes

                  PS: yes, yes .. and I went under this matter with the highest authorities in the office .. and in 2002 they quietly removed me from there .. about how
                  1. -1
                    22 July 2015 02: 58
                    Well, another Jew brought me in an emergency crying
                    Interestingly expose. About culture finally
            2. +2
              22 July 2015 09: 33
              Cope with high-tech tasks
              If Sharia does not prohibit, then why not?
              In Israeli high-tech, there are many people of Arab origin.
              1. 0
                22 July 2015 12: 50
                Yes, where is the Israeli high-tech. If they ran away from the Sinists to their own knowledge, this was already interesting.
          2. +1
            26 July 2015 21: 40
            Quote: tilix
            And in Syria and Egypt there are social strata that are quite capable of coping with high-tech tasks.

            Perhaps such people are available. However, the experience of the fighting of the 60s-80s proves that the Arabs could not properly master neither the air defense system, nor tanks, nor aircraft. At the same time, other nations did an excellent job of this.
  24. +1
    21 July 2015 15: 18
    Quote: bmv04636
    and didn’t try to run through the trunk?

    This is technically more difficult, fiber optic cable may burn out or not withstand the loads. You also need to put the connector somehow. IMHO
  25. +2
    21 July 2015 15: 22
    Quote: chenia
    can (moreover should)

    "It was cool on paper, but they forgot about the ravines" History has shown that, against the IDF "should" not work. tongue
  26. +2
    21 July 2015 16: 28
    Cool pattern. Especially delivered a camouflage system. :) I don’t understand the need for such a complex machinery, but apparently the preparation for shooting looks bewitching :)

    In general, Israeli war machines are very interesting, a local theater with very specific conditions generates something unusual ...
  27. -1
    21 July 2015 16: 37
    Interesting machine. Only absolutely useless for Israel. It turned out to be so cool and secret that the Israeli army refused its combat use. To the enemy did not recognize, or even more so captured. And so yes - for the sake of Israeli show-offs: like we can do that too, it will do. And the fact that the combat value of self-propelled anti-tank missiles is zero - so you can not talk about it.
    1. 0
      21 July 2015 17: 07
      Quote: Denis_469
      absolutely useless for Israel


      Quote: Denis_469
      army of the army abandoned its combat use

      Quote: Denis_469
      zero self-propelled anti-tank missile

      Where did the firewood come from? Look again at the year when this system was created. So many years have passed, by itself much has changed.
      1. 0
        21 July 2015 17: 40
        Quote: Rumata
        Where is the droushka?

        From life. You see - if some kind of weapon is used somewhere, then the enemy will know about it right away. It can not be hidden during combat use. That is, in battle with the enemy. Since so far no one has ever said that such a machine fought against him, it means that she really didn’t fight anywhere.
        1. +4
          21 July 2015 19: 35
          I liked the fact that military censorship declassified the tank in response to a request from a simple forum www.fresh.co.il. This is how the MO and technology lovers communicate. good


          For the first time this tank was lit in Lebanon in 2006. Then this photo did not receive the deserved attention, and the soldiers received a stick. They were then told that if the tank had been photographed from the front they would have been sent to prison.


          Quote: Denis_469
          .You understand - if some kind of weapon is used somewhere, then the enemy will know about it right away. It can not be hidden during combat use. That is, in battle with the enemy. Since so far no one has ever said that such a machine fought against him, it means that she really didn’t fight anywhere.




          Quote: Jager
          And where did this super-secret ATGM manage to fight?

          In Lebanon, in Gaza, in Syria.
          Quote: Spade
          A week ago, yours reported that the "iron dome" is now capable of shooting down UAVs, including high-speed small ones.

          Lied?

          Probably did not lie, but the LCD is stationary and is not able to cover tanks in battle and on the march.
          Quote: Spade
          Yes. Guided projectile. And what's the problem, actually?

          At least because the guided missile requires external target designation: backlighting, GPS coordinates. There is no feedback from the operator, you cannot redirect in flight and cancel the mission, well, moving targets ... (1:40)
          1. -3
            21 July 2015 19: 59
            Quote: professor
            I liked the fact that military censorship declassified the tank in response to a request from a simple forum www.fresh.co.il. This is how the MO and technology lovers communicate.

            And when will your military censorship declassify the true goals of staying in Russia Pupyrchaty and Dancheg? This is how the Israeli Defense Ministry will relate to VO readershi
            1. +1
              21 July 2015 21: 33
              And when will your military censorship declassify the true goals of staying in Russia Pupyrchaty and Dancheg?

              uh, uh, i'm in israel!
              1. 0
                21 July 2015 21: 35
                Quote: Dan4eG
                And when will your military censorship declassify the true goals of staying in Russia Pupyrchaty and Dancheg?

                uh, uh, i'm in israel!

                Do you live or came to visit relatives?
                1. +3
                  21 July 2015 21: 42
                  Do you live or came to visit relatives?

                  I live here, with relatives!
                  1. 0
                    21 July 2015 21: 45
                    Quote: Dan4eG
                    Do you live or came to visit relatives?

                    I live here, with relatives!

                    I have never seen you under the Israeli flag.
              2. 0
                22 July 2015 01: 44
                Quote: Dan4eG
                uh, uh, i'm in israel!

                No one was worried. laughing
  28. +3
    21 July 2015 17: 39
    The missile system is excellent, the idea of ​​using a tank as a disguise, I think, is rather weak, at the first reconciliation the enemy will calculate this vehicle and there will be no second use, it's like the commander's "panthers" during the war, the barrel was a "simulator", the tanks are indistinguishable, but the presence on the commander's two antennas, reduced the entire camouflage to nothing and ours successfully used it, and the secrecy was because it was vulnerable. And even if intelligence had already discovered this tank complex, I think they would find differences, there would be an infantry fighting vehicle-type carrier, light and maneuverable, sense there was more, this is my opinion
    1. +4
      21 July 2015 20: 58
      Quote: 31rus
      it's like the commander's "panthers" during the war, the barrel was a "simulator",

      What a simulator ??? The commander’s tank was armed with a standard KwK42 L / 70 cannon, so in battle it was possible to distinguish or other Panthers only by additional whip antennas mounted on the roof of the tower and behind the engine compartment on the hull. In order to make a place for an additional radio station, it was necessary to withdraw the machine gun and reduce the ammunition of a tank gun to 64 rounds.
      1. +1
        21 July 2015 21: 14
        Quote: Bayonet
        Quote: 31rus
        it's like the commander's "panthers" during the war, the barrel was a "simulator",

        What a simulator ??? The commander’s tank was armed with a standard KwK42 L / 70 cannon, so in battle it was possible to distinguish or other Panthers only by additional whip antennas,.
        Your opponent apparently meant this car
        Panzerbeobachtungswagen Panther - a tank of advanced artillery observers. There was no gun on the car, instead, a wooden breadboard was installed in a non-rotating tower. The armament consisted of the MG-34 machine gun installed in the mask. The tank was equipped with the periscope of the commander of circular rotation TSR 1, the wide-angle periscope TSR 2, which could rise to a height of 430 mm above the tower, two tank periscopes TBF 2 and a horizontal-base stereoscopic rangefinder. The crew consisted of a commander, observer, driver and radio operator. According to some sources, a single instance was built, according to others - a series of 41 cars
    2. +1
      21 July 2015 21: 00
      Quote: 31rus
      the presence of two antennas on the commander’s, brought the entire disguise to nothing and ours successfully used it
      In fact, the Germans here acted like complete fools ... They had to let more fog of war go, that is to say, equip each Panther with a dummy of the second antenna. All Panthers with two antennas - go figure out where the commander is sitting request But it is now so easy to model. In general, the art of military camouflage does not know perfection. I'm not talking about banal camouflage and application to the terrain, but about more fundamental elements of military art. At least take the discussed anti-tank complex. In the 80s, not a single instrumental reconnaissance. the battlefield would not be able to distinguish this vehicle in a tank column. Of course, it looks very worthy that only after so many years it was declassified ... but I doubt that the same Syrian tankers were not informed about its appearance and tactics of use. knowledge, but strict silence is also an element of military disguise and cunning. Iran and the armies of other countries now disguise their missile launchers as ordinary vans. There will be hundreds of them on the road both in peacetime and in wartime. This is all from the same opera, as the counterfeit gun on the Israeli "cunning tank". All the same fog of war. The more there is, the more safe you are and less often bullets whistle and shells rumble. And again everything is ready to make one single accurate shot . And then another one. And another .. War.
  29. -1
    21 July 2015 18: 08
    All this is designed for a war with armies that have nothing but tanks for a normal war, this is an easy target, it is invincible, but ours did not know this, so they killed him in the first battle and disguised it somewhere like a tank so that everyone and tanks would hunt him and aviation and everything that shoots + infantry they are something too clever. To combat the massive use of tanks, other equipment is used much cheaper and shooting on areas))).
  30. +3
    21 July 2015 18: 17
    Quote: Jager
    And where did this super-secret ATGM have time to fight? Most likely there are a dozen or two samples that are protected and released only for maneuvers. And who foolishly "burned" in front of the camera)

    How many of them are unknown, the first combat use was in 1987. During the second Lebanese (2006), they launched 600 missiles for various purposes, 28 PERE were damaged and all returned to service after repair.
  31. 0
    21 July 2015 18: 22
    Quote: 31rus
    The missile system is excellent

    It is.
    Quote: 31rus
    the idea of ​​using a tank as a disguise I think is rather weak

    There is also doubt, because it is also a combat unit that is subject to destruction. Yes, as in the photo with a crooked barrel.
    It is better to disguise as civil.
  32. +5
    21 July 2015 18: 44
    Quote: cobalt
    We had such a "dragon" tank in service at one time, but it was removed from service by the age of 80.

    Sorry, but we had NOT SUCH a tank. At first, it was armed with conventional ATGMs (3-4 km.) - in line of sight. And the principle of guidance-We still have "shot and forgot" are being developed, I am in the 70s And he says nothing. And most importantly, our generals did not know what to do with him, combat use. And if he runs out of missiles?! The question was removed when they learned to launch ATGMs from the barrel of a gun. Of course, someone else can find fault. But I will say, good fellows Israelis. Developed, put into service (probably developed methods of combat use). As I understand it, they have a new 2nd generation missile tank ready. Yes hi
    1. +3
      21 July 2015 18: 58
      They now look like heavy infantry fighting vehicles based on the "Merkava".
    2. +2
      22 July 2015 19: 07
      With one amendment, it was adopted in 1968, and removed in 1979.Then, nothing like this in the world of NMIs happened.
  33. +6
    21 July 2015 18: 47
    Sad to me.
    One of the visitors wrote about "the use of small artillery or ATGM carriers at 25 km." Five others continued his reasoning and none asked the question what it is and how it is eaten.
    Office plankton in VO plucked up can `t.
    Sad to me.
    1. 0
      21 July 2015 21: 39
      and how to me pichalko!
      One of the visitors wrote "An anti-tank vehicle with a combat height of four meters cannot be effective."
    2. 0
      21 July 2015 23: 41
      With laser illumination, the target is very likely. There is a special forces group and a "laser pointer" - there is fire from closed positions. Well, even if not for 25 km, but for 10-15 km, it will definitely work out, but at the Israeli training ground, why can't it reach 25 km?

      After all, the Americans throw planning bombs with laser target designation.

      And if there is no special forces group and no "laser pointer", they beat in a straight line from 5 km.
  34. +1
    21 July 2015 19: 24
    Oh, you sly zhezh zhop @ ...)) The firing range of course is impressive ... when you aim from the air it will do troubles - mom don’t cry ..
  35. +1
    21 July 2015 19: 34
    Quote: Netwallker
    "It was cool on paper, but they forgot about the ravines" History has shown that, against the IDF "should" not work.


    Do you even understand what this is about?

    I explain more.
    The point is that the means of destruction over such long distances can be different - artillery (guided by a projectile) or aircraft attack aircraft and (or) helicopters (and in my opinion more effective).
    It doesn’t matter who the Arabs or the Jews are (sort of sort it out there yourself). And by the way, you were the first to use helicopters very successfully.

    And the best and most reliable anti-tank melee weapon is this. Tank Fighter (IT), (tank-like BM with a powerful gun) exclusively designed for direct fire firing at armored vehicles.
    1. +3
      21 July 2015 20: 20
      Quote: chenia
      And the best and most reliable anti-tank melee weapon is this. Tank Fighter (IT), (tank-like BM with a powerful gun) exclusively designed for direct fire firing at armored vehicles.

      2015 is in the yard, what direct fire, what melee?
      1. +4
        21 July 2015 21: 39
        Quote: Rumata
        015 is in the yard, what direct fire, what melee?


        Well, yes, if you fight with the lads doing NURSy from scraps of water pipes, you can crush them remotely and with one joystick.
        1. +2
          21 July 2015 23: 29
          Quote: chenia
          Well, yes, if you fight with the lads doing NURSy from scraps of water pipes, you can crush them remotely and with one joystick.

          Yes, yes ... By the way there is a solution even better, and just for close combat
        2. +1
          22 July 2015 01: 52
          Quote: chenia
          Well, yes, if you fight with the lads doing NURSy from scraps of water pipes, you can crush them remotely and with one joystick.

          Don't argue with them, because we all know perfectly well that all this "Israeli" technique was created by Soviet minds who emigrated to Israel, it's just that this fraternity is ashamed to admit it, because they are the "chosen ones." laughing
          1. +2
            22 July 2015 02: 00
            Quote: Victor-M
            Don't argue with them, because we all know perfectly well that all this "Israeli" technique was created by Soviet minds who emigrated to Israel, it's just that this fraternity is ashamed to admit it, because they are the "chosen ones."

            I will say more with the example of this article, they managed to create a “Peer” 10 years before they emigrated from the USSR to Israel. That's what I understand, aerobatics ...
          2. +2
            25 July 2015 19: 24
            Quote: Victor-M
            it's just that this fraternity is ashamed to admit it, because they are the "chosen ones."

            Victor, why so. They (the Jews) are constantly at war. And learn from them there is something and respect them for what! IMHO!
  36. 0
    21 July 2015 22: 52
    I was almost asleep, when suddenly I accidentally read Alexandra from Haifa. So, tell someone to Mr. Atalef so that he would remove me from the emergency and not give a voice that I, through his own fault, could not hear.
  37. -1
    21 July 2015 23: 15
    Constructors of the armata "Why could it be the same?"
    1. +1
      22 July 2015 01: 46
      Quote: CRASH.
      Constructors of the armata "Why could it be the same?"

      How? wink laughing
      1. -2
        22 July 2015 13: 19
        Put anti-tank missiles on old tanks, increasing their efficiency, and not sawing a new tank during the plague.
  38. 0
    22 July 2015 05: 50
    I don’t want to offend anyone, but it's just a desire to save. Of the advantages, PUs are fairly well protected, in general, the fashion of hanging birds where you can’t reach is not clear, the gunsmiths didn’t hear about the fragments and such entertainment as a refusal to launch or a firework in the form of an explosion near their own tower due to damage to the PU fragments by their heads is coming. Also, plus the armored corps, for some reason everyone having heard about the 20 km range decided that the columns of tanks along the contact line would ride in full dress. And here the minuses begin, first for shelling the BT column, it will be necessary to approach the battle line from 3 to 5 kilometers, disguising as a tank will just play a cruel joke, because what kind of gouging should be done !!! in order not to pay attention to the tanks spinning under your nose, put the second one in the place of an ATGM operator, a natural desire to plant a tank without even knowing what a miracle this weapon is. Further since No TTX, then some questions, the container seems to have a mass of 4-5 tons, how long does it take to prepare for battle? can the machinery move at this time? How long does the recharge take? (the feeling that it is not very convenient), how is the hydraulics moving this container into service? Yes, in order not to develop a new platform, we decided to save money and this is one plus that I see.
  39. +3
    22 July 2015 11: 07
    Quote: Denis_469
    From life. You see - if some kind of weapon is used somewhere, then the enemy will know about it right away. It can not be hidden during combat use. That is, in battle with the enemy. Since so far no one has ever said that such a machine fought against him, it means that she really didn’t fight anywhere.

    What nonsense ?! Be sure to run all the selfies to do against the background of a new tank (combat vehicle) during combat use wink
    You do not allow the thought that if there is no information on its application, probably no one survived after application lol
    An example - our Katyusha in the Second World War, there were a bunch of applications, a huge bunch! But the Germans for a very long time could not understand what it was, not capture the sample. So Katyusha did not fight?
    Controversial car for someone? Maybe. But certainly Israel is not militarily rational. For themselves, they decided that they needed this and did and applied. By the way, very wisely used old tanks, instead of drank.
    Quote: Slippery
    And here the minuses begin, first for shelling the BT column, it will be necessary to approach the battle line from 3 to 5 kilometers, disguising as a tank will just play a cruel joke, because what kind of gouging should be done !!!

    Chukchi is not a reader? ©
    What are 3-5 km ??? Why should a system with a range of 25 km come under a pindule for 3-5 ??
    In the worst case scenario, from 10-15 you can safely work.
  40. +2
    22 July 2015 11: 44
    The rational use of obsolete tanks looks great. Everything is cheaper than making a new car.
  41. -1
    22 July 2015 12: 01
    Quote: MaoDz
    In the worst case scenario, from 10-15 you can safely work.

    succinctly and convincingly, you are in the branch to the snipers calmly "working" for 2 km from warm trenches.
  42. 0
    22 July 2015 12: 15
    A huge number of interesting comments, I did not read everything, but I think the Israelis were greatly impressed by the effectiveness of the Soviet Malyutka ATGM, from which many tanks were lost during the Egyptian-Israeli war (1973) (for example, the attack of the 252th armored division was successfully repulsed with heavy losses for Israelis (the division has 103 serviceable tanks out of 268) .Therefore, stuffing a tank with such mini-missiles, the Israelis solve one of the issues of modern combat - effective fight against armored targets at long distances. And whether it is effective or not will show not a virtual dispute, but a worthy enemy and modern combat.
  43. 0
    22 July 2015 13: 28
    It seems that the complex is not so much anti-tank as multifunctional. And the hypertrophied secrecy is due to its use in special operations. The choice of the chassis is due to considerations of efficiency, that is, the ratio of the type "beneficial effect - material costs". Not knowing exactly the level of characteristics and the achieved effect, it is pointless to challenge the decision of the designers. However, having a general understanding of the traits of a Jewish character, it can be assumed that a rational decision was made thirty years ago. It makes no sense to compare many Israeli developments with those of large arms exporting countries, because, by definition, in many ways they are unique and not designed for an external customer.
  44. +1
    22 July 2015 14: 50
    For lovers of Israeli exoticism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMgZy3KUSO4
  45. 0
    22 July 2015 15: 27
    Those. the Israelis managed to bring the "rocket tank" to mass production and use, and even from 25 km. range of missiles! Considerably.
    Surely, some sort of graduates of Soviet universities who went to the east. tried their homeland laughing
    1. 0
      22 July 2015 18: 51
      Quote: xomaNN
      Those. the Israelis managed to bring the "rocket tank" to mass production and use, and even from 25 km. range of missiles! Considerably.

      it will soon be written off, and you "managed to bring".
      Quote: xomaNN
      Surely, some sort of graduates of Soviet universities who went to the east. tried their homeland

      for sure, given that the system shot-forgot in Israel since the 80s of the last century, and in the Russian Federation they are still working on it. Not otherwise the spiritual bonds of another system.
      1. -1
        24 July 2015 13: 52
        You are inattentive, I wrote "... graduates of SOVIET (!) Universities, and not the current ones." engineers in Israel were decent
  46. +1
    25 July 2015 01: 30
    Quote: Rumata
    Not the Himalayas or the Alps, of course, but you need to take into account, you also need to take into account the specifics of the desert area. Already tired of these "Israeli technology is sharpened only for the desert, no mud, no water barriers," etc ...

    The territory of Israel seems to be about 28 thousand square meters. km ????? From Wikipedia: "The climate of Israel is subtropical Mediterranean type, with dry hot summers and mild rainy winters. The relief significantly determines the variety of climatic conditions in different regions of the country. During these months, the relative humidity averages 72%, while in June - 47%. Thunderstorms. are rare, on average 7 days a year.
    The average annual temperature on the Mediterranean coast is 20 ° C, in mountainous areas it drops to 15-16 ° C. The southern part of the country has the hottest climate, where the average annual temperature is over 22 ° C, and the average temperature of the hottest month is 30 ° C. In winter there are negative temperatures; the absolute minimum temperature reaches -4 ° C at an altitude of 750 m. In the central regions of the country, at an altitude of about 750-800 m, with an average annual temperature of 17 ° C, the average monthly rates range from 9 ° C in January to 24 ° C in August. Here for more than 300 days a year the temperature is kept above 15 ° C, and for 160 days - over 25 ° C. "It's just horrible how extreme! There, in the photo behind the hill (no mountain of course !!), it seems to become evenly.
    In the municipal area where I live, the area is 4,5 thousand square meters. km., i.e. 1/4 of your COUNTRY, you write 8 climatic zones, yes you are right, but for such a piece of territory .... and judging by the above info, your climate is far from the territory of Bulgaria and the Russian Federation, so the Bulgarian is right. Your technique is mainly exp-Xia in desert and semi-desert conditions. The climate of my area is sharply continental in summer up to +40, in winter up to -43 degrees. For comparison, there are more than 29 large lakes and 9 rivers on the territory of the district (these are only large ones). Your harshness about the Bulgarians just hurt, the series of victories over the Arabs raised your self-esteem too much, you look at the world map, you can show Russia with your eyes, and you look for your finger. It is useless to argue with you, you are really smart, but you are true "narcissists". Why everyone "loves" you so much, can you explain yourself, you are so smart, and you created the country in 1948 ??
    Quote: Rumata
    Padded jacket, do not crucify, I do not feed you for a long time and I am not going to begin. I can only condole, most of the Israelis from this site are dumped, or they just come in to read, feed you, a fat troll, only a few, and then probably from boredom. I only flooded to the Marshal and then there was bad luck, there are few Israelis left, most of you are in emergency situations and there is no one to copy-paste your sheets of text. How sad...

    How rough!!! Why did you stay, they didn't take you ???? Don't even recognize their own? With this "line" you humiliated yourself, a fool and all your own. I hope you also "honestly" conduct disputes with representatives of other nations and states, the USA, Germany, etc. Arrogance cannot be taken away from you, for 67 years it has grown so quickly from you. Well, I see, like the language, the "Professor" has successfully picked up an Avatar for himself, with a long language. Why are you all sitting here on the forum, chat at your place, oh yes, you come in to make fun of the JACKETS, you "hang" at the Germans on nationalist sites, cool guys, you are a couple, just right. Was it not quilted jackets with your (maybe fathers) who once defeated those who were going to wipe out your people from the earth ?????? I know - instruct the minuses ... well ...
    1. -1
      25 July 2015 05: 59
      Horror, the first thought is that someone did not take the medicine.
      Quote: Raider
      Of your COUNTRY, you write 8 climatic zones, yes you are right, but on such a piece of territory

      The climatic zone cannot be in the territory of a couple of square kilometers, the creators of the equipment had to take into account the fact that it should feel normal both in the mud on the Golan Heights and in the desert.
      Quote: Raider
      Your equipment is mainly exported in desert and semi-desert conditions.

      Twenty five again. I specifically wrote that until recently, the main tank theater was the Golan Heights, even took pictures of what kind of desert. Add?



      Quote: Raider
      A series of victories over Arabs too raised your self-esteem

      What is what? How is the response to overt stupidity above and victory over the Arabs connected? What kind of kindergarten logic?
      Quote: Raider
      You look at the map of the world, you can show Russia with a glance, and you are looking for your finger.

      So what? Is this some kind of competition? How can one come from the fact that in Israel there are various climatic zones to the fact that Russia is cooler than Israel and can be seen on the globe? Where did I write that Israel is larger than the Russian Federation on the map? What is it for? Any complexes? What have I got to do with it?
      Quote: Raider
      but you are true "narcissists". Why everyone "loves" you so much, can you explain yourself, you are so smart, and you created the country in 1948 ??

      Firstly, such generalizations of millions of people give out xenophobia, well, or xenophobic embryo, more accurately. I don’t write that all Russians are thumping only and thinking of something to shame and how to work less. Is the analogy clear? And as for the state, it was there even when the Slavs had not even appeared yet, I was already silent about their states. And in general, from the time of the end of the World War II, and to this day, more than 80 new states have formed in the world, are they also not smart?
    2. -1
      25 July 2015 05: 59
      Quote: Raider
      they didn’t take you

      Quote: Raider
      They don’t even recognize their own?

      Quote: Raider
      you humiliate yourself fool

      Quote: Raider
      Arrogance cannot be taken from you

      Quote: Raider
      you come in to make fun of VATNIKI,

      Quote: Raider
      Are your quilted jackets with yours (maybe fathers)

      These 7 lines caused me a cognitive dissonance, such a stream of consciousness ... I'll explain it on my fingers. Firstly, Vatnik is an ardent xenophobe and anti-Semite, read his comments, you yourself will understand everything, or find a kindred spirit. Judging by the statements above, you will have something to talk about. Secondly, I have been on this site for a long time, once it was a resource where you could "hang" for 5-6 hours reading interesting articles and comments to them. The number of interesting and intelligent personalities here simply went off scale. Now they dumped, and instead of them Vatniki and the company divorced, looking for articles by tags Israel, America, Ukraine and filling them with threshing floor. There have always been xenophobes on VO, but what is happening now is just tough.

      Open the home page, read the headlines and ask yourself why this is "Military Review" and not "Political Herald" or "Mouthpiece of Propaganda". So it is not clear where does the mention of some honest disputes, nationalist German sites and jokes on quilted jackets whose grandfathers fought with mine.
      1. 0
        25 July 2015 13: 54
        Thanks for the reply.
        Quote: Rumata
        Xenophobes in VO have always been, but what is happening now is just tin.

        I agree.
        Quote: Rumata
        These 7 lines caused me cognitive dissonance, such a stream of consciousness ... I will explain on the fingers. First, Vatnik is an ardent xenophobe and anti-Semite, read his comments, you will understand everything yourself, well, or you will find a soul mate. Judging by the statements above, you will have something to talk about.

        Reading your previous posts, I had similar associations. Re-read yourself, look at yourself from the side. If you want of course.
        With climate, of course, a moot point. Even more. For the sake of interest, the nature of my Urals, where I live: steppe, forest-steppe, forest, mountain-forest, mountain, forest-tundra, tundra. I don’t know if they were in Russia, or maybe they lived and worked here and come here all the time, I can’t say. But what is not frightening extreme photos in your photo, believe me. And if you were, you know. You know very well that military equipment created even in the Union was being tested, and now it is being tested from North to South, the country is located on a vast territory. Well, that doesn't matter. Speaking your opinion, be self-critical, it just seems that you are talking from heaven, descending to us mortals. By the way, you too, nationalism is rushing among many of your fellow countrymen, what can I say about ours, we are also proud of our Motherland. No matter how it was treated. You just have to be a patriot of your homeland, not a nationalist!
        Good luck Health to you and your loved ones.
      2. 0
        25 July 2015 13: 59
        PS The site is actually very interesting, for some reason, notes from colleagues from Israel mostly appear only on articles directly or indirectly affecting your country or equipment, where you react very sharply to any criticism. IMHO. Maybe it seems of course.
      3. 0
        25 July 2015 13: 59
        PS The site is actually very interesting, for some reason, notes from colleagues from Israel mostly appear only on articles directly or indirectly affecting your country or equipment, where you react very sharply to any criticism. IMHO. Maybe it seems of course.
        1. 0
          25 July 2015 23: 10
          Well, like an ordinary soldier I go through my whole life !! laughing
          Well, some Israeli marshals and generals, no personal life !! crying
        2. The comment was deleted.
      4. 0
        25 July 2015 17: 43
        Quote: Rumata
        First, Vatnik is an ardent xenophobe and anti-Semite,

        That is, if I say the truth that you are hiding about the Israeli regime, does this mean anti-Semitism and xenophobia? lol
        Quote: Rumata
        Secondly, I have been on this site for a long time, once it was a resource on which you could "hang" for 5-6 hours reading interesting articles and comments to them

        In other words, while it was easy for you to lie here, everything suited you, and as soon as you began to object, the resource was bad right away.
        Quote: Rumata
        instead, Vatniki and a company divorced, looking for articles on the tags Israel, America, Ukraine and filling them with threshing floor.

        So please, that you are "crying" there are a lot of resources where the regimes of the US, Israel and the current regime in Ukraine are very fond of you there will be much more comfortable. There you can calmly justify fascists and terrorists in Ukraine and throughout the world and tell tales about great Israel smile
        Everyone will understand and appreciate you there. lol
        And why should we speak well of our enemies, the USA, Israel or the fascists from Ukraine? If they only want one "collapse" of our country and the defeat of our allies?
        Quote: Rumata
        Xenophobes in VO have always been, but what is happening now is just tin.

        And there are a lot of Russophobes, especially from one country.
        1. 0
          25 July 2015 19: 04
          Quote: quilted jacket
          That is, if I say the truth that you are hiding about the Israeli regime, does this mean anti-Semitism and xenophobia?

          Here is a man who is also sure that he is telling the truth, and poisoning the womb of the truth. This does not change the fact that he is nonsense, and a place for him in a mental hospital.

          For me, your copy-paste looks the same, far-fetched bullshit in rainy weather ...
          1. +2
            25 July 2015 19: 12
            Do not feed the troll, the ion will disappear, starve to death.
          2. +1
            25 July 2015 19: 29
            Quote: Rumata
            For me, your copy-paste looks the same, far-fetched bullshit in rainy weather ...

            No need to compare your frank lies and your support of terrorists and maniacs from around the world with my truthful posts in defense of my country and the countries of our allies.
          3. 0
            25 July 2015 20: 06
            Quote: Rumata
            Here is a man who is also sure that he is telling the truth, and poisoning the womb of the truth. This does not change the fact that he is nonsense, and a place for him in a mental hospital.

            By the way, where this person "lies" is not up to you, but the Nazis just like you wanted to decide for everyone what they need to do, how to think and what to say.
            And your labeling is very similar to their "point of view".
            So you do not adhere to the Nazi, hateful ideology?
            And then something like this.
  47. 0
    25 July 2015 19: 24
    Well, one "learned" troll here calmly carries lies and propaganda and nothing dies lol