Not a Russian business at all

75


Russia has neglected the development of its own energy gas turbine building, now it is important to accumulate high-tech competencies at factories built in the country by foreign companies

The launch ceremony of the Siemens Gas Turbine Technologies (STGT) plant, a joint venture of Siemens and Power Machines, dedicated to the opening of the St. Petersburg Economic Forum, took place at the Greenstate industrial park in Gorelovo, in the south of St. Petersburg, 18 June. The importance of the event was emphasized by the presence of high leaders - the Russian side, in particular, was represented by State Duma Speaker Sergei Naryshkin and Leningrad Region Governor Alexander Drozdenko, the German side by Siemens AG board member Siegfried Russvurm. However, the participation of the head of the Russian deputies corps, judging by his opening speech with noticeable anti-American rhetoric, should have rather emphasized a simple thesis: despite the sanctions, high-tech cooperation with European countries and companies continues. The project itself, claimed speakers (among whom were from the Russian side were First Deputy Energy Minister Alexei Teksler, and General Director of Power Machines Roman Filippov), would contribute to accelerating the modernization of domestic energy, as well as strengthen economic ties between countries in difficult political conditions.

Lost leadership

Undoubtedly, the opening of such a plant is another step in the development of high-tech production in Russia. And this news from the category of very good. Gas turbines will be produced in Gorelovo - high-tech power equipment, justifiably considered the pinnacle of a high-tech high-tech machine-building plant, while the plant itself, which employs about 300 specialists, is equipped with modern equipment, including unique machines for plasma spraying of turbine parts, laser welding and water-jet cutting. There are only three similar enterprises and engineering divisions for the production of high-capacity gas turbines from Siemens in the world: in Berlin, German Müllheim and American Charlotte.

The product line of the St. Petersburg joint venture includes two gas turbines with a capacity of 172 and 307 MW, but later the site can also be used to assemble GT of lower power. The works on piping, assembling and packaging of centrifugal compressor equipment intended for the transportation of natural gas will be arranged here, and in the future they will begin to manufacture the compressor modules themselves. But now it's not about the blowers. For us, it is important to be able to produce high-power GTs, albeit under the Siemens trademark. And that's why.

Power engineering (EMC) and the electrical industry are high-tech sectors of the real economy that testify to the technological viability of any state. Gas turbine engineering is the industry peak of power engineering, which keeps the whole production and innovation sphere in good shape. Until relatively recently, only a limited circle of states possessed their own EMC, and developed gas turbine engineering, including both energy and aviation and ship engines, even fewer initiates; almost until the end of the XNUMXth century, their number in the world did not exceed a dozen: Great Britain, Germany, Italy, USSR / Russia, USA, Switzerland, Sweden, France, Japan. Later, the pool of countries producing such equipment was replenished at the expense of developing countries (primarily, of course, about China). But we went a peculiar way in this area of ​​technology.

It so happened that the USSR, having been since the beginning of the 70-s of the last century as the undisputed technological leader of the energy gas turbine building (the first production machines in the world, 100 MW, were produced at the Leningrad Metal Plant). This happened primarily due to the fact that the country moved towards powerful nuclear, hydro and thermal stations, and subsequent difficult attempts to create an 80-megawatt GTU on the LMZ were simply lost in the grandeur of the Soviet energy swing. Cheap energy resources have finished the trend to abandon the gas-turbine and steam-gas subjects that promised resource-saving, as a result, the Soviet Union (and after its collapse, Russia) was left without its high-capacity GTU.

By the end of the first decade of the 21st century, the only gas turbine, which, with an eye on history The issue (the roots of the turbine go back to Soviet-era naval development, and it was designed at the Zarya-Mashproekt design bureau in Ukrainian Nikolaev) can be called domestic, was the GTU-110, which, with the support of Anatoly Chubais, was brought to mind in the Saturn NGO in Rybinsk But they did not bring it, and now out of five such turbines installed at two stations in Ivanovo and Ryazan, only one worked last year. After the closure of RAO UES and the departure of the hot supporter of the development of the company's general director Yury Lastochkin in 2010, its improvement has essentially ceased (for more details, see “Need a national gas turbine project” in Expert No. 11 for 2010 a year). Representatives of the current owners of the Rybinsk enterprise, the United Motion Corporation (UEC), do not speak out clearly and publicly about the continuation of this work. But the UEC, together with the state-owned company Inter RAO UES, set up a joint venture in 2011 there, in Rybinsk, in order to build a competitive gas turbine plant for Saturnovsky in partnership with General Electric. Now the first two GTUs with a capacity of 77 MW are being built there on the order of Rosneft.

The market is delivered. Are the technologies adopted?


GTU and PGU (combined-cycle plant) are still the main abbreviations for our electric power industry. Gas now dominates the fuel balance of power plants - it produces, according to the Ministry of Energy of last year, more than 44% of Russian electricity. Upgrading gas thermal power plants and transferring them from the steam cycle to the steam and gas cycle could save up to a quarter of those 160s with more than billion billion cubic meters of natural gas that are mostly burned in condensing power boilers with 38 percent efficiency. PGU is a much more efficient gas utilization tool. In the best modern models of CCGTs, including those built on the basis of those turbines that are planned to be produced at the plant in Gorelovo, the efficiency reaches 60%.

In the past five years, the market for energy gas turbines thanks to contracts for the provision of capacity (CDMs were invented during the “Chubais” sector reform for guaranteed state reimbursement to the investor of funds invested in construction and partly in the modernization of power plants) - the most rapidly developing demand. on the equipment segment of new power plants. Only in 2014, at the expense of the CCGT in the country, more than 3,2 GW of new capacities were commissioned at the large TPPs included in the Unified Energy System of Russia. However, almost all of this market is at the mercy of foreign manufacturers, primarily Siemens and General Electric.

Only SGT5 – 4000F with power from 270 to 285 MW (the modern version of 307 MW) - these are the ones to be assembled in Gorelovo - eleven units are already in operation in Russia, seven more projects are at different stages of implementation. This means that Siemens has supplied equipment for the CCGT to Russia, the installed capacity of which is approaching 7,5 GW, which is more than the country has launched nuclear power units for the entire post-Soviet period! According to the company itself, the total power of Siemens gas turbines made by Siemens technology, including small and medium-sized machines sold in Russia, exceeds 13 GW. General Electric lags behind Siemens in terms of installed capacity, but this company’s account for deliveries goes to gigawatts (the author of these lines counted more than 20 turbines from 77 to 256 MW with a total power of about 2 GW installed by GE on Russian TPPs only in 2010 – 2012 years ).

For the Russian energy sector, the supply of gas turbines by these companies is a pleasant fact, these are excellent cars. But domestic engineering has lost billions of dollars due to the unwillingness of the state to really invest in such an important segment of technology. Thus, it is estimated that only 110 million dollars was spent on the development of the GTD-20 project, and in the USA, the energy department invested more than a billion dollars in developing and fine-tuning H-class turbines in the zero years of our century (not only in GE, but and the current gas turbine division of Westinghouse, owned by Siemens).

There is some positive experience in technology transfer in the industry. In 1991, the Leningrad Metal Plant (now the branch of Power Machines), together with Siemens, organized the Interturbo Joint Venture. The company produced 19 machines V94.2 under the brand name Siemens, which were sold to nine countries of the world, including Russia. In 2001, Power Machines purchased a license for the release of V94.2 under its own brand GTE-160 (in total 35 of such machines was released, of which 31 was made for Russian consumers). The share of domestic components in installations 60%, but the responsible nodes - components of the hot path, pulling the slots in the disks, the electronic part of the control system, the gas fuel unit - remained in the area of ​​responsibility of Siemens.

Localization of free will


At the peak of success, Power Machines developed the GT-65 installation, relying on its replacement and the CCP on its basis of numerous outdated steam turbines with a capacity up to 110 MW. Mosenergo, which supported the project, was soon eliminated - why is it risky to sponsor the expensive development and development of the Russian GTU, when you can buy a ready-made foreign turbine and still get a refund for it under DPM contracts. In 2011, Power Machines, in fact, abandon the independent development of this subject, transferring the gas turbine SKB, which worked for LMZ from 1956, to the new company Siemens Gas Turbine Technologies, which absorbed Interturbo, and assets in the joint venture redistributed in favor of Siemens (65%).

At the newly opened plant, the first SGT5 – 2000E turbine has already been assembled, the share of domestic suppliers is still about 12% at cost. But, according to the director general of STGT Niko Petzold, the company intends to increase it to 70% in accordance with the goals set by the government of the Russian Federation. According to him, several Russian companies are currently undergoing appropriate certification. There are no direct binding documents prescribing the localization program, but the demand from state-owned companies often already provides for a requirement for a certain degree of product localization. Therefore, a top manager says, only by expanding the range and improving the quality of localization, it is possible to get more large-scale access to the rather competitive Russian market of gas turbine products.

In particular, at OMZ Spetsstal plant, technical director of STGT Alexander Lebedev says, from the batch of forgings, the rotor parts for the next turbine - rotor disks, end parts (total 28 components) are already made during supplier certification. And this is a very responsible product, often coming from abroad.

Gradually, the share of Russian manufacturers, including the supply of high-tech components due to their gradual certification according to Siemens standards, will increase. Domestic components will be used in turbines designed for foreign markets.
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  1. +25
    4 July 2015 06: 01
    Russia neglected the development of its own energy gas turbine
    and as a result, almost lost the surface fleet ... recoursehope the lesson is learned.
    1. +10
      4 July 2015 09: 40
      Enemies are around, if everything is clear with external ones, but internal ones are even more dangerous, but cleaning is long overdue ...
    2. +36
      4 July 2015 11: 18
      Lesson learned?
      But what about Medvedev’s program of forced sale of state-owned enterprises to foreign owners (the so-called investments) with its liberal code? In addition, they also stimulate the transfer of successful commercial enterprises to foreign owners. Foreign owners are mostly Americans who consider Russia to be enemy No. 1, that is, our direct enemies.
      For example, the largest Voronezh company Veropharm was sold to the American company Abbott, after which not only disappeared from sale for inexpensive medicines, but also sanctions were imposed on Russia by this already American plant. The deal was approved by the Antimonopoly Committee and the Russian government.
      Me, a senior citizen, this liberal sabotage touched the most direct way.
      1. +1
        5 July 2015 12: 49
        What can I say, people like Russia-the country of Bears are arranged And relatives of one of the bears are Voronezh’s roots
        1. 0
          21 July 2015 13: 36
          not Voronezh, but Kursk
      2. 0
        5 July 2015 21: 58
        Enraged bears must be isolated.
      3. 0
        8 July 2015 08: 22
        Me, a senior citizen, this liberal sabotage touched the most direct way

        Well, how so? because on TV we are told that sanctions are painless for the people
      4. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +1
      4 July 2015 13: 57
      It seems that the genus of atomic euphoria was until recent years!
      Yes nafish us GTU we put YaSU on everything from submarines to boats ...
      Then when it dawned that the yasu was expensive and not expediently clutching its head.
    5. 0
      4 July 2015 16: 48
      ...... we also lost - "Cossacks", "Muscovites", "RAF", "Dzintars", ......... and no one shouts .... I WANT "RAF" !! !! ......
      1. 0
        4 July 2015 17: 49
        .......... and do not persuade ...... I will not go to the "Zaporozhets" ........ even kill!
  2. +5
    4 July 2015 06: 23
    The main result of the training will be hidden here:
    "... by expanding the range and improving the quality of localization, it is possible to gain wider access to the rather competitive Russian market for gas turbine products."
    And I really hope that in this area we will be able to rise to the height we need.
    1. +6
      4 July 2015 12: 31
      Quote: staryivoin
      And I really hope that in this area we will be able to rise to the height we need.

      .. here is the main reason for the appearance of the Siemens plant, read:
      BERLIN, June 10, 2015 (BigpowerNews) - Chairman of the board of electrical giant Siemens Joe Kaeser gave an interview to dpa to justify the upcoming 5100 job cuts in Germany. On June 9, a wave of protests swept across the country across the country, Deutsche Welle reports today.
      According to DW, Joe Keser promises to reduce staff in a sparing mode for concern employees, but he cannot give up his intention to significantly curtail the production of turbines for large gas power plants at enterprises in a number of German cities: there simply is no demand for them.
      In Germany, according to the top manager, this is primarily due to the reorientation of energy to renewable sources (Energiewende), and "in the rest of Europe, the situation is such that, due to weak growth in these countries and increased energy efficiency, the overall need has decreased." At the same time, Joe Keser emphasized, “in the Middle East, in Asia and especially in the USA,” the demand for large gas turbines is currently very high.
      In Europe, the construction of new gas power plants has virtually ceased, says Siemens.
      ..the pride of German industry leaves Germany .. laughing .. priority markets are Asia and the Middle East .. we are an industrial site with minimal investment, we have all the capacities and qualified personnel, and there are no problems with logistics in any part of the world .. well, I put a minus in the article for distorting the facts .. USSR power system / Russia will be based on nuclear power plants and hydroelectric power stations in such a way .. except for the separate power systems of Sakhalin and the Kaliningrad province (TPP 2 97% of the installed capacity of the region 875 MW) .. hi .. well, the factory is good, jobs and taxes to the budget ..
      1. +8
        4 July 2015 12: 38
        .. and also about the fact that "everything is gone, the client is removed the cast" .. laughing .. UFA, 9 Dec 2014 - RIA Novosti, Ramil Salikhova. The Perm designers of Aviadvigatel, by order of Gazprom, will produce gas turbine units instead of the imported analogue, which will be higher in efficiency and cheaper in cost, the press service of the Perm Territory told RIA Novosti.
        Aviadvigatel won a Gazprom tender for the development and supply of a powerful gas turbine unit (GTU). The capacity of the new unit will range from 34 to 40 MW. In the next decade, Gazprom plans to purchase up to 200 such units. It is planned to test the unit in 2017, start sales in 2018, "a representative of the regional government told the agency.
        The new gas turbine unit will compete with the one produced under license by REP Holding based on the American General Electric turbine. It will be cheaper than the imported analog and higher in efficiency. If the American turbine had an efficiency of 34%, then the Perm turbine would have 39%.
        In addition, from 2017 Aviadvigatel will supply Gazprom with gas turbine units with a lower capacity of 16-25 MW for the implementation of the Power of Siberia project. The share of Perm turbines in the scale of the gas project is about 70%.
        .. fot so no General Electric and Siemens .. do not hang us Midshipmen! .. hi
        1. +1
          4 July 2015 21: 42
          As I understand it, the article is about powerful turbines. Over 100 MW.
          And where is their power? Gas pumping units of ever lower power. And thermal power plants are not being built right now. The bet on the atom is done.
          For ships, too, this power is not needed.

          Where are they going?

          Even more doubt is added by the fact that for some reason Chubais wanted to make such a turbine. Something I do not remember the effective expense of funds by this super-manager.

          And we make gas turbines of lesser power. And they do well.
          1. +1
            4 July 2015 21: 55
            Quote: Arkon
            As I understand it, the article is about powerful turbines. Over 100 MW.

            100MW is not a powerful turbine, a standard 55oMW turbine (thermal power plant)
            Quote: Arkon
            And thermal power plants are not being built right now. The bet on the atom is done.

            nuclear is also thermal
            1. +1
              4 July 2015 22: 17
              Here are just hundreds of standard ones. The maneuverability of the CHP adds. And five hundred at the state district power station are calculated.
              nuclear is thermal ... in Russia, in addition to one Bilibino in Chukotka, all nuclear power plants are only electricity. So without CHP anywhere.
              1. +1
                4 July 2015 22: 46
                all nuclear power plants are just electricity. So without CHP anywhere.


                But still. What new CHPs are currently being built? And what capacities are there?

                As I understand it, low-power gas turbines are more in demand now. Gazprom takes them for cogeneration and small thermal power plants.

                I do not think that it is fundamentally impossible for Power Machines to develop a 300 MW gas turbine themselves. Which will never pay off.
                And here Siemens turned up successfully.

                The reconstruction market is still here. Small but there.
                I see so.
          2. +3
            4 July 2015 21: 55
            Quote: Arkon
            As I understand it, the article is about powerful turbines. Over 100 MW.

            100MW is not a powerful turbine, a standard 55oMW turbine (thermal power plant)
            Quote: Arkon
            And thermal power plants are not being built right now. The bet on the atom is done.

            nuclear is also thermal
            1. +2
              4 July 2015 22: 18
              Quote: atalef
              nuclear is also thermal


              Steam.

              However, the article deals specifically with gas turbines that use the energy of the burned working fluid directly.

              But still. Where are gas turbines with a capacity of over 100 MW used?
              1. +1
                5 July 2015 12: 26
                Quote: Arkon
                Steam.

                Steam engine? whether laughing
                no steam power
                Yes
                Thermal
                Hydro
                Solar
                Wind
                Hydroacamulating
                On internal combustion engines.

                Steam (sorry) - no
                Although the heat carrier is steam
                Quote: Arkon
                But still. Where are gas turbines with a capacity of over 100 MW used?

                For industrial power generation and are divided into 3 types
                1. With air clutch
                2 With turbine and generator on one shaft
                3.With an additional low-pressure turbine operating at the expense of an additional exhaust gas boiler
                power from 250 to 370 MW hi
                1. +2
                  5 July 2015 22: 50
                  We have an interesting dialogue ... smile
                  You, apparently, are not talking with me, but for some reason quote me.

                  Steam - I meant that steam turbines are used at nuclear power plants and the same Power Machines make them in Russia. And someone else, like ...
                  It is the same article in the article, again, about gas, which are not used at nuclear power plants (maybe they are used somewhere, but as an exception).

                  I. I asked about where they use gas turbines with a capacity of 100 MW +, referring to specific projects of thermal power plants in Russia.
                  As far as I understand, there are no such projects - only reconstruction. CHP plants have become smaller due to changes in construction concepts when many ITPs are installed and there is no need for high centralization of hot water supply.

                  So clearer? smile
          3. 0
            4 July 2015 21: 57
            The boiler is not economical.
            A gas turbine + steam turbine is 50-60% more economical than a gas boiler.
            As a result, energy is cheaper.
            The cost of producing goods is less.
            Export is tastier.
            1. 0
              4 July 2015 22: 22
              We like this (I won’t say where, otherwise it will find Sat) they also thought. And they bought a gas turbine from Siemens. And when she didn’t need a sheer number of llamas, she asked for euro for maintenance - all the saved profits in Germany were drowned. And they sent them away to another thermal power station - after three years the cars were taken to scrap metal. So what is there to count and count ....
              1. +1
                5 July 2015 12: 30
                Quote: VASh 1182
                We like this (I won’t say where, otherwise it will find Sat) they also thought. And they bought a gas turbine from Siemens. And when she didn’t need a sheer number of llamas, she asked for euro for maintenance - all the saved profits in Germany were drowned.

                At us the same Siemens does THAT and nothing. no deadly llamas
                Quote: VASh 1182
                And they sent them away to another thermal power station - after three years the cars were taken to scrap metal.

                Blunt laughing
            2. 0
              5 July 2015 12: 28
              Quote: Stas 86
              The boiler is not economical.


              Economical
              Quote: Stas 86
              A gas turbine + steam turbine is 50-60% more economical than a gas boiler.

              Fairy tales, cheaper than coal-fired power plants - only hydro
              By the way, the steam turbine is powered by the burned gas of the turbine and is a commonplace gas-fired power plant
              Quote: Stas 86
              The cost of producing goods is less.

              No less, the cost of energy on gas until it approached coal
              1. +1
                5 July 2015 13: 37
                Cost kilowatt / hour. (From expensive to cheapest)
                1.AS since uranium (to make a battery you need kilowatts), the cost of building a nuclear power plant and full support before withdrawal.
                2.Hydro since the most expensive (several pyramids of concrete) and a little power.
                3. Steam-gas power station.
                4. Coal (but here it is debatable since it is very dirty), in some countries the environmental tax
                covers all benefits.
                I’ll add on my own, you need to clean the coal (put a filter), and most importantly find suckers who
                sell the waste product from the filters and then again the minus.
                Example: England sells drywall in Russia, there is all the dirt from the filter.
          4. 0
            4 July 2015 22: 07
            Well, what are you bresh? Build, and very build
        2. 0
          11 July 2015 00: 26
          God give it! You look and get out of this hole.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. 0
        7 July 2015 00: 14
        And what grade do you give to your own fabrications? The energy system of Russia is not based on nuclear power plants and hydroelectric power stations (together 31,3%), but on thermal power plants - 68,5%.
  3. +8
    4 July 2015 07: 04
    It’s interesting, if in the USSR we could build turbines and were among the leaders, it’s not all wasted, why not try to revive? The next question is we conscientiously supply gas to Europe, since the "partners" have imposed sanctions for the subsequent conversion and other actions, and take the technologies necessary to the same Gazprom? In general, we are pumping gas to them and sanctions are being imposed on the same sector, is it time for the "partners" to suggest either investing in technologies (all in Russia), or already really renegotiate gas contracts. Blackmail, yes, but how did you want?
    1. jjj
      +2
      4 July 2015 12: 00
      They did the right thing in the USSR. There were no such volumes of gas. Even the gas pipe project has not yet been. And they developed hydropower and nuclear. Now you can take it for gas. And very important quality. The cost of a kilowatt hour at a hydroelectric or nuclear power plant is much lower than at a fuel oil or gas
    2. -1
      4 July 2015 12: 20
      Everything can be revived, there are only two problems:
      1. Where to get frames?
      2. Who will give the money?
      but rather the opposite.
      1. 0
        4 July 2015 19: 40
        Quote: FM-78
        1. Where to get frames?

        There are at least a lot of personnel in the country, but there are no specialists, or rather, it’s not fashionable now to be an engineer - they all want to be an official. And from here there is a bias in education, although this is no longer education ........... .... so buying a diploma
        Quote: FM-78
        2. Who will give the money?

        There is so much money in the country that we buy American debt, save money in two funds. And the problem is rather not in the availability of money, but in the absence of competent specialists in financial management, balanced economic policy.
        Quote: FM-78
        Everything can be revived, there are only two problems:

        For the revival, first of all, the will of the official is required, but here the fun begins.
  4. +2
    4 July 2015 07: 04
    "The share of Russian manufacturers, including the supply of high-tech components through their gradual certification in accordance with Siemens standards, will gradually increase" ...


    Still, even having 70% of our components, we will not get away from dependence on Siemens ... Everything needs to be done in order to fully produce gas turbine engines of various capacities on our own ...

    PS Here again from this information it can be seen how short-sighted industrial policy of our rulers and businessmen ...
    Most of all, it’s annoying for the almost built ships, which have become essentially cans ...
    1. -1
      4 July 2015 10: 27
      Quote: veksha50

      Still, even having 70% of our components, we will not get away from dependence on Siemens ... Everything needs to be done in order to fully produce gas turbine engines of various capacities on our own ...


      The main thing is to fully design. This is much more complicated than producing.
      1. AUL
        +3
        4 July 2015 11: 36
        Mik13
        The main thing is to fully design. This is much more complicated than producing.

        Quite the opposite! We have enough talented people to come up with, invent, design something. But to make in a series, and even high-quality - this is a huge problem. It is one thing to make a single copy "on the knee", and quite another to launch it into industrial production.
        1. 0
          5 July 2015 14: 51
          Quote from AUL
          To invent, invent, design something - we have enough talented people.

          A modern turbine is made not by talented people, but by design bureaus with the appropriate technologies and experience. It so happened that some products were not developed in the USSR / RF, so I had to "make friends" with Siemens.

          Quote from AUL
          But to produce in a series, and even with high quality - there are huge problems with this.
          And such a problem also exists. As far as I know, is being decided.

          Quote from AUL
          It is one thing to make a single copy "on the knee", and quite another to launch it into industrial production.

          Of course. The product is designed for existing production capabilities. This is one process, not several.

          You see, the fact that the product will be manufactured on the territory of the Russian Federation is more profitable than buying manufactured in Germany. But this is still the product that Siemens designed. With all the relevant consequences.

          I would very much like to read the news about the production of turbines in the domestic project. For example, the French, along with the unsold Mistrals, also acquired appropriate technologies, but for now, unfortunately:
          Gradually, the share of Russian manufacturers, including the supply of high-tech components due to their gradual certification according to Siemens standards, will increase. Domestic components will be used in turbines designed for foreign markets.
      2. Ostwald
        0
        4 July 2015 19: 14
        A heat-resistant turbine blade is more difficult to design than to manufacture?
        1. 0
          4 July 2015 19: 35
          You're not right! It’s just that the whole turbine is not logical, and therefore it is just necessary to form the polarization correctly. This means that the combustion chamber must be arranged so that contact with the blade is not in the region of the plane of the surface of the outflow, but in the region of maximum polarization. Then neither the blade nor the structurally complicated blade will have to. I understand that there are people who are much more intelligent in this area, but it’s a sin not to understand simple things.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. 0
            4 July 2015 22: 28
            Military blades are growing in the Russian Federation bully .
            That's why they sell it in buckets. wink
        3. +1
          5 July 2015 15: 07
          Quote: Ostwald
          A heat-resistant turbine blade is more difficult to design than to manufacture?


          Of course.
          Design is not just a product drawing, it is also the creation of production technologies. And their implementation.

          A heat-resistant single-crystal blade is not an independent invention, it is to some extent an integral part of casting by directional crystallization, EMNIP.

          Look, there is, for example, IL-2, with a combination of properties unique to its time. The manufacture of armored hulls required the creation of a unique technology for processing armor steels - stamping combined with hardening.
          To understand the very necessity of inventing such a technology, Ilyushin was needed, who was up to date on modern metalworking technologies and could determine whether this is possible at all. And metallurgists who could create such a technology were needed. And the technologists who were able to introduce it into mass production.
          And the whole process is the design of the aircraft. Exclude something - and the plane will not take place.
          1. 0
            5 July 2015 17: 37
            I understand that my statements are perplexing, but the shoulder blade is a key element of a harmonious device. I do not need to invent it separately. It should be an integral element of harmony. Therefore, we say that the entire turbine can be calculated on the basis of only one radius. And the blade should be a magnet, which will be strengthened by the ionization processes of the outflow of hydrodynamics. streams. Therefore, the impasse lies in the fact that by creating a heat-resistant blade you create completely non-process material qualities. Yes, he holds some level of the process. But then it just collapses. Which happens constantly and everywhere, up to turbo fuel of superchargers of rocket engines.
      3. 0
        4 July 2015 19: 45
        And to know how everything should be so simple. But bringing it to other people is incredibly difficult. The problem is on a completely different plane.
  5. +9
    4 July 2015 07: 14
    I would not say that the Union neglected something: for which there were enough forces, they did it. First of all, the defense industry was vitally needed. In addition, no one could have thought in a nightmare that the Union would fall apart. As a result, Zorya-Mashproekt, Kharkov Turboatom, and Motor Sich ended up in another country. And when the Americans banned the Turboatom from supplying turbines to Bushehr, it was necessary to organize a joint venture with the French: other Russian plants of this type of turbine size did not, which is logical - why duplicate?
    So not only Siemens and General Electrics, but also the French. I don't know, what about a Rolls-Royce.
    As for Siemens, it gradually becomes not German, but Russian :)
    1. +9
      4 July 2015 07: 56
      - vladimir_krm: As for Siemens, it gradually becomes not German, but Russian.
      A little off topic. They asked the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian customs officers how much time it would take to acquire a BMW.
      1.Ukrainian-3 months.
      2. Belarus-5 months.
      3.Russian-6 ... years ??? It really hurts a huge company.
    2. 0
      4 July 2015 17: 07
      As for Siemens, it gradually becomes not German, but Russian :)

      But it’s impossible in more detail? How is it?
      1. +2
        5 July 2015 11: 12
        It was almost a joke, because I do not have access to official information. But I’ve been viewing press reports for a dozen years. And I see that in Russia regularly appear not only the supply of Siemens products, but also permanent missions at many plants, and production branches, and even research and development units. This is not without reason (c) And under the conditions of sanctions, Europe itself is pushing for such a decision with complete non-resistance of the Russian Federation.
        1. +1
          5 July 2015 11: 34
          Siemens is a large, ossified structure. Only the commercial division works well there.

          At one time, he worked at an enterprise producing electro-pneumatic actuators. At NEVZ they ran into Siemens. NEVZ was told by the management of Transmashholding to switch to Siemens pantograph lifting devices. Siemens put it to the test - the devices did not pass any climatic conditions, although Siemens each time "modified them".

          As a result, ours went into the series.

          With such an attitude, it’s not a sin to buy them - they completely stopped catching mice.
          1. +1
            5 July 2015 12: 32
            Quote: Arkon
            Siemens is a large, ossified structure.

            Siemens Turbines - Cool
            High-voltage equipment (especially gas-insulated) is simply perfect, now they did the first maintenance, after 18 years of operation - they took it apart - everything is like new
            1. 0
              5 July 2015 22: 19
              Thanks for the information.
              And not a single project has gone with Russian Railways - they are not ready to modify the equipment for our operating conditions.
  6. +2
    4 July 2015 07: 21
    History teaches that teaches nothing. By the way, Siemens owns a block of shares in power machines (owner Mordashov), which recently includes a unique plant for the production of turbines for nuclear submarines. The conclusions are obvious.
    1. 0
      4 July 2015 07: 48
      Quote: fomkin
      History teaches that teaches nothing. By the way, Siemens owns a block of shares in power machines (owner Mordashov), which recently includes a unique plant for the production of turbines for nuclear submarines. The conclusions are obvious.

      Partners are :-)
  7. +1
    4 July 2015 07: 29
    Even in industries such as oil and gas production, the importance of which is not worth talking about, the service enterprises are oilfield services, 80% are foreigners.
  8. +11
    4 July 2015 07: 39
    "Russia neglected the development of its own energy gas turbine building"

    Comrade author, it’s not Russia that has neglected, but the Eltsman’s gang has done everything to destroy its own industry, including gas turbine construction, and to make a gas and oil column out of the Russian Federation.
    1. +7
      4 July 2015 07: 51
      Quote: larand
      Russia didn’t neglect, and the Eltsman’s gang did everything to destroy its own industry,

      As you say, "Eltsman's gang", like himself, has been gone for a long time. How long are you going to refer to him as the source of all your troubles?
      1. +7
        4 July 2015 08: 50
        Figures! There is no Eltzman, but the gang remains.
      2. +5
        4 July 2015 09: 04
        And the gang in place and the roof of this gang does not reduce support. So, that 10 steps taken by us forward, they force to retreat 8 back.
      3. +5
        4 July 2015 10: 29
        Quote: Schulz

        As you say, "Eltsman's gang", like himself, has been gone for a long time. How long are you going to refer to him as the source of all your troubles?


        Comrade Schulz, I will cease to refer to him when I hear the accusation against Eltsin of the murder of the USSR and the destruction of the Russian economy, when the monument erected to him in Yekaterinburg is demolished. When individuals like Gaidar, Chubais, Kasyanov, Nemtsov, and other chicks of the Eltsin nest will be evaluated in our history as criminals, not liberal democrats.
        1. jjj
          0
          4 July 2015 12: 05
          And they dig under Chubais. The "right hand" was attracted. Anatoly Borisovich volunteered to come to the prosecutor's office himself and testify about his colleague's honesty. And there only Chubais are waiting to be asked questions
        2. +2
          4 July 2015 12: 31
          Well, dear comrade, you need to start with our spotted friend (and he is alive and well, and infection is even coming), that’s the root cause, but a simple Ural guy is already a consequence, although I agree, it’s not very pleasant.
          PS
          By the way, I hope that the redhead will receive his reward in life, and not posthumously.
          1. +1
            4 July 2015 18: 15
            Quote: FM-78
            redhead will receive his reward in life

            the regional committee doesn’t surrender, it’s just that he got the throne in Odessa, of course, they lowered him, but they appointed a good salary, he pushes the port at Kolomoyshi.
      4. Ostwald
        0
        4 July 2015 19: 35
        [/ Quote]
        As you say, "Eltsman's gang", like himself, has been gone for a long time. How long are you going to refer to him as the source of all troubles? [/ Quote]
        Yeltsin is not the source of all troubles, all the troubles of Russia are from the minds of the proletarians and the peasant poor. Which the former lawyer, Lenin convinced, was that the poor class was always deceived by the bourgeois class when the proletarian was hired to work for the bourgeoisie, who didn’t clear up the proletariat, who then mercilessly exploited the same proletariat, for example, at a defense factory, and then the proletarian decided to destroy the class of exploiters, and mentally The proletarian somehow did not notice that he deprived himself of a choice for whom to work for the capitalist or at a state-owned factory where everyone steals.
        And Borya is really to blame, after all, not for the same flawed as he and his voters, someone shed their blood on the fronts of the civil and 2nd world war. And that's how it happened - no one will revise the results of privatization, well, just like the Allied Countries - and no one will revise the results of Poland's borders, even if they did not get it right as a result of its aggression and the subsequent aggression of the "Riga World" ...
    2. 0
      4 July 2015 18: 10
      Quote: larand
      Eltsman's gang did everything to destroy

      just do Eltsman so-so and his gang just stuck, the shark is called Rothschild Rockefeller and other members of the clubs, by the way like one fins glued another in a coma was infa on sedition, maybe fake?
  9. +1
    4 July 2015 07: 41
    The Siemens plant is on our territory, and that's already good!
    And our factory - in Kharkov, got dusty!
    1. Ostwald
      0
      4 July 2015 19: 44
      Yes, and in Nikolaev on Zorya-Mashprom boredom beat out of boredom.
    2. 0
      5 July 2015 06: 21
      The plant is now a place for assembling a product from components from different suppliers, most of the suppliers are from Siemens, so it’s not worth rolling out a lip, it’s just the top of the production pyramid.
  10. +1
    4 July 2015 08: 41
    I don’t even know whether to rejoice or cry from such news what
  11. +3
    4 July 2015 09: 05
    Quote: sagitch
    The Siemens plant is on our territory, and that's already good!
    And our factory - in Kharkov, got dusty!

    Quote: Barracuda
    I don’t even know whether to rejoice or cry from such news what

    Of course, rejoice, because the friends and heirs of EBN, who blamed the Soviet Union, destroyed the Great Heritage for 25 years, exposing themselves to be marketers, that is, bourgeois and believed (I think especially for fools) that the market will do better than a planned economy. But in fact they stuffed their pockets.
  12. +2
    4 July 2015 10: 02
    "Sic transit gloria mundi" - the result of the government of liberals in gas turbine construction.
  13. +5
    4 July 2015 10: 03
    The transfer of TPPs from a steam-powered cycle to a combined-cycle one is not to say that a very correct solution. Yes, the efficiency will increase. And environmental friendliness, and manufacturability during operation. But, such stations, as a result, will be able to operate only on natural gas. While steam power cycle thermal power plants can run on any fuel: fuel oil, coal, gas (natural, any other), even firewood. It is for this reason that Finland, not the most backward country, its e-mails. station did not transfer to PSU.
    1. AUL
      0
      4 July 2015 12: 03
      Very practical remark! Not everything that is profitable and expedient in Europe will be such with us - we have slightly different realities. And multi-fuel in our country is a more important factor than the efficiency of the installation.
    2. Ostwald
      +1
      4 July 2015 19: 48
      If gas is supplied, then the CCGT will be more preferable to liquid or solid fuels.
      1. 0
        4 July 2015 19: 53
        But this is temporary and unpromising even within the framework of the period of our lives.
  14. +2
    4 July 2015 10: 35
    Only high-level analysts can understand the importance of turbine production. Only very few people understand that the future of this strategic branch of production does not depend on the modernization of turbines operating on old physical principles, but on the creation of fundamentally new and efficient devices. This means that it is physical processes that determine novelty. Russia can and should produce products that do not have not just analogues, but products that correspond to the status of a country and people.
    1. Ostwald
      0
      4 July 2015 19: 54
      There are never and will never be old physical principles, and the GPU’s novelty in heat engineering probably originated at the beginning of the 20th century, it’s just hard to make turbine blades, melt heat-resistant steels and from time to time to maintain the cleanliness of the blades because there are not desirable natural gas impurities that clog the blades and reduce efficiency.
      1. +2
        4 July 2015 20: 05
        The scientist is distinguished by the flexibility of the mind and the ability to recognize his indiscretion. What is meant by new or old physical principles? Correctly! Understanding the algorithmic processes. A turbine is the embodiment of the sequence of processes that we put in it. But! This does not mean that there are no other options. Therefore, you are still not quite right. And therefore you will solve the problems of materials science, and not simple constructions of new process algorithms. This may not be called a new process, but the facts determining the new resultant are unambiguous in understanding.
        1. Ostwald
          +1
          4 July 2015 20: 40
          The turbine is quite a simple device known since ancient times converting the directed flow of gases to its blades causing the shaft to rotate on which they are mounted. I admit that another principle is also possible to extract work from a gas jet, but below I wrote no higher than the efficiency of the Carnot cycle, this is a theoretical side chapel that does not contradict all other physical laws.
          1. +1
            4 July 2015 20: 52
            Quote: Ostwald
            The turbine is quite a simple device known since ancient times.

            ICE is the same simple device. They are on Lada Kalina, on Honda Civic, almost the same lol
            1. Ostwald
              +1
              4 July 2015 20: 59
              Yes, not ICE turbines will be more complicated. Reciprocating motion of the connecting rod with the crankshaft, piston, sleeve, valve on the engine, on the Lada Kalina.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +1
            4 July 2015 22: 03
            Let me disagree! The thermodynamic cycle agrees - it’s completely rational. However, do not confuse iron with what we see as obvious and the process itself, which is not visible, and therefore does not change as a physical process, and as not an obvious phenomenon.
            Why am I "hooked" on you, dear? It is your reasoning that gives reason to discuss the issue. Many people are simply not able to talk about such topics and I do not blame them at all. But to come into contact with a person who is able to see not obvious, but real processes is a great blessing. The very fact that you admit this possibility allows you to talk to you. The fact . that according to general scientific concepts, including the essence of your reasoning, only the kinetic energy of the flow is estimated, but why the potential energy of the flow substance is not taken into account. And this means that the conversation may not be about abstract efficiency at all, but about the supply of energy extracted from
            ..... You think you yourself understand what. So you can and should talk about the over single capabilities of the energy recovery potential. Sorry, but you have to manipulate words, but in fact everything is much simpler. Academic scientists are afraid of certain expressions and have to spare them. From what has been said, one can speak of the limits not of the Carnot cycle, but of the limits of specific technical possibilities in which the limits of the potential of physical processes are laid down, after which they must move to new fractal levels.
            1. Ostwald
              0
              4 July 2015 23: 07
              Of course, one kilogram of gas heated to 400 degrees in the atmosphere of Venus will have more energy than one kilogram of gas on the surface of the earth heated to a temperature of 20 degrees. But you cannot extract work from that Venusian gas until you find a refrigerator for it such as it is, for example, on the surface of the earth, or in the shadow of Venus behind its atmosphere.
              That Venusian gas has no directional movement, although it has more energy than Earth gas. that is, a drawing of a heat engine from a physics textbook of the 6th or 7th grade. The heater-working fluid (heated gas forks) to 1) Refrigerator (required) 2) Work (directional movement of any kind of electrons in the metal, motor shaft) is not necessary.
              Or is it easier on Venus without a heat engine, any heated gas without directional movement is dead gas, as on Earth, gas with low stored energy than Venus will be just as dead as on Venus, we neglect the conditions of the wind blowing.
            2. 0
              5 July 2015 22: 28
              I don’t understand anything in turbine construction, but I have a question! smile

              Tell me, does your vision of processes on a turbine extend to low-speed devices?

              For example, windmills?
              1. 0
                5 July 2015 23: 20
                If the question is for me, then I will explain simply. The potential difference on a linear segment of space along the vector of air or liquid flow should be maximum. Therefore, the boundaries of both the upper and lower parts of the polarization expand. In simple terms, this means that it is theoretically possible to convert even ascending and descending air flows. The turbine we represent can perceive not only the frontal flow, but also swirling behind and all the flowing flows. In this case, the output nozzles can also be fixated on creating an ejection and have any vectors along the azimuth coordinates. This also applies to the use of a turbine as an aircraft turbine. That is, it is possible to direct reverse flows instantly in any direction in azimuth - by changing the plane of rotation of the stream. The turbine has no speed limits. Therefore, it is sometimes positioned as a device operating in ultra-high speeds of rotation, when conventional turbines are already destroyed. If you are familiar with centrifuges for the enrichment of necessary important substances, then they generally do not use the whole range of possibilities hidden in the potential of gas-dynamic flow. Etc
          4. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          4 July 2015 22: 27
          Quote: gridasov
          This does not mean that there are no other options.



          Can I drive a tornado into a turbine?
          1. 0
            4 July 2015 23: 30
            You are absolutely right . The principles embodied in the tornado have very specific mathematical justifications that can be embodied precisely in the technical design of the turbine. I have been explaining it for a very long time, but it is obvious without result that the energy potential of the effectiveness of a particular device is embedded in a technical device, but expressed in the ability of this device to transform it is the substance of the medium or the dynamic flow of this medium. Remember, I'm not the first to talk about this. But probably I am the first who can consistently and logically substantiate this. Of course, not on these Internet spaces. In general, it is interesting for me to observe how everyone looks at the obvious information, but does not see the content in it.
            1. 0
              5 July 2015 10: 19
              Based on ramjet, otherwise all these compressor stages will strangle the natural life of a tornado on the vine. Here the most difficult thing is to create the conditions for the formation of a tornado (let's say for aircraft engines at the start. (Here it will be possible to attract the possibility of a series of directed explosions until it starts)). The tornado is fed with the thermodynamic energy of hot gases.
              1. +1
                5 July 2015 11: 45
                I totally agree! You cannot create a tornado in a technical device as in nature, but you can create all the processes that occur according to the same algorithms and, accordingly, create a result. After all, what is a tornado, even in short is a very capacious phenomenon. It is distinguished by symmetry in all axes, the capacity in the recharge and the concentration of flows at local points. Therefore, modern turbines are distinguished by the illogical nature of the fact that they do not use the potential of the hydro-gas-dynamic flow divided by layers and jets. they split and divide in what exactly carries energy, namely, it creates a potential difference along the longitudinal vector and with the main component — the back of the stream.
                In the concept of our turbine, the blades are the equivalent of an induction coil, which is capable of holding and at the same time giving, or rather connecting through the torque, the shortest distance of space between zero flow velocity in one plane and the maximum flow velocity at the periphery, and at the same time bind the physical state flow substances in an absolutely laminar state of dynamics and its highest level of turbulence. What can not be said again, the same about modern turbines.
  15. +4
    4 July 2015 10: 38
    One must always proceed from expediency. Do we need such settings? Yes. Do we now have the opportunity to launch production of the very best plants in the world? No. Lost competence, no development. How much time will it take us to recreate competency and breakthrough developments? Years 15-25. Do we have so much time? Probably not. Then what's the point of breaking spears? In the USSR, tractors were also not able to do, they bought factories in Germany and the USA and based on them developed their tractor and tank structure. Now we make the best tanks in the world. Can go this way? Pull all the best from the world towards yourself and analyze to learn from experience and develop your design and construction schools. To be the best in the world. That's just the private trader will not develop (Mordashov only needs money) he will not invest in development - this is the task of the state as well as the energy industry. Only understanding in the government we do not have. (((
    1. +3
      4 July 2015 18: 29
      Quote: Maxom75
      In the USSR, tractors were also not able to do

      we can do tanks, but a tractor? Yes, they were simple, but they could make repairs in the field, but why I wanted to work on imported ones. Shishiga won over patency, but the service is longing. but in general the idea is true, the Chinese also did flashlights and thermoses well. and now almost everything is advanced, we just got carried away with copywriting, but we need to have our own achievements, but first we need to buy technology, specialists, and study, study and study again, and then learn to teach students. the sad thing is that they lost the continuity of generations; there are no turners of locksmiths, only managers, but the engineers then went to Sorovskys.
    2. +1
      4 July 2015 22: 32
      What is so gloomy? We have a GTU here - they removed the dviglo from the Su-25, they hooked up the inlet and the boiler, and the boiler is working - why reinvent the wheel?
  16. +3
    4 July 2015 11: 34
    Energy is a strategic industry of any state. Energy independence is a guarantee of the country's successful development. Unfortunately today we are purchasing foreign energy equipment, investing gigantic funds in the economies of other countries. Spare parts are delivered from abroad. Repair of power equipment is carried out with the help of foreign specialists who have to pay a lot of money. And also experts from Ukraine hostile to us are involved. Nobody knows how far the sanctions war will go. Using foreign energy equipment, Russia risks losing some of its capacity, as Western campaigns may refuse to supply spare parts. The collapse of RAO UES is a big mistake. Mr. Chubais promised as a result of the restructuring of the joint-stock company in the energy sector, investments will come, and tariffs will even drop. Everything happened quite the opposite. A lot of intermediaries appeared on the energy market, thanks to which tariffs soar every year at a frantic speed. It is necessary to develop our own energy capacities using domestic energy equipment, to attract our own specialists, both for the development and repair of this equipment. remove negligent intermediaries from the energy market who feed at our expense. Dependence on the West in this segment can hurt the country's energy security
  17. +1
    4 July 2015 12: 29
    Combined-cycle gas modules of medium (one hundred megawatt) power, easily erected and assembled, should become the basis for the development of energy in the deep regions. Nuclear power plants are for million-plus cities and industrial regions. And the Crimea must be equipped. Otherwise the Ukrop saboteurs will sever the cable and arrange "Blackout" in the holiday season. And gas for Crimea, as I understood, will have enough of its own.
    You can only develop your own production of such modules by re-creating the design school. That's what is quickly lost and difficult to recover - competencies in development and technology. Our staff in the design bureau of this joint venture is what we need. In a few years, our youth will either become the backbone of this design bureau, or it will be able to create its own, if there is a state will.
    1. 0
      4 July 2015 12: 53
      And I wrote about it. The designer has been preparing for 25 years (the institute is 5-6 years old, 15-20 years under the guidance of experienced instructors (designers), after 20-25 years a person reaches the level of skill, after 30 years of genius, but not all). Examples are our gene designers at the defense industry complex (Lazino-Lozinsky).
      1. -1
        4 July 2015 22: 35
        Quote: Maxom75
        The designer has been preparing for 25 years (5-6 years Institute, 15-20 years under the guidance of experienced instructors (designers) through 20-25 years, a person reaches the level of skill, through 30 years of genius, but not all).



        If a person by nature is not able to generate ideas, then the designer will not come out of it. At best, functional.
        1. 0
          5 July 2015 09: 04
          For this, they trained designers at institutes with a margin of about 10 people for one serious vacancy, the rest went to technologists, engineers, shop managers and more.
  18. +2
    4 July 2015 13: 16
    We have developed an incomprehensible reasoning that the factories built by foreigners are "good" for Russia, like they are foreigners, even if they "leave" then we will get all the equipment and technologies. Unfortunately, this is not at all the case. Foreigners build factories with a maximum payback period of 3-5 years, while the equipment during this time must exhaust its resource and will be replaced with a new one, old, as worn out and outdated, without a twinge of conscience, is sent to the trash heap. That is, the equipment, after the "departure" of foreigners, will have to be thrown into the trash heap by themselves as outdated and exhausted, or to fuss with its "repair", "modernization", etc. etc. Now about the technologies. Technologies are not supplied to Russia at all, just a "taboo" on it. It comes to the point that the servers from which the production process of a plant located in Russia is controlled are located somewhere in Germany or Holland, and when they are turned off, an ultra-modern plant simply turns into a pile of unusable metal and equipment.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      4 July 2015 15: 46
      .
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      then we will get all the equipment and technology

      I will support your opinion. He worked at one time in a joint venture with the French. Worked on their equipment, on automatic lines. There was some conflict between them and our leadership. The French left, and in the quiet they took the software with them. All production has stopped. Therefore, in any way, only its technology and equipment.
      1. 0
        5 July 2015 09: 11
        And how many five-axis machining centers do we have? How many precision machine tools do we produce? Even factories capable of casting cast iron beds for machine tools were closed in the nineties. Now, in the government, they pick their nose and think about how to revive, only while the last specialists pick it, they leave for another world. So in order to scream all the equipment only domestic, you first need to start making it, and you will have to do it on imported equipment and on its basis. We don’t have microelectronics! And most importantly, we need a state approach - an ORDER for equipment in order to recoup a series, but it IS NOT!
    3. +2
      4 July 2015 16: 51
      You, apparently, have not seen modern production facilities. Serious equipment has a depreciation period of 10 years! Who is it in the trash after 3 years? And the software example is a bad example. Consequently, the bosses did not "cut the trick" and did not understand what should be kept in the first place. A turbine plant is not a production line. Just turning off the software won't spoil it.
  19. 0
    4 July 2015 13: 53
    Yes, not everything is as rosy as we would like ... But

    the first steps have been taken, although this is a joint venture (not in our favor), but still our people will work there, gain experience, and then several development options are possible ...
    1) Young people will gain experience and, if possible, open new enterprises as suppliers to the same factory (if there is a desire), here you have the localization
    2) The design groundwork and its improvement by our engineers, if the engineering department is included there (it is possible that only production is "given away"), new technologies and, again, localization

    Nobody has yet canceled globalization, and large transatlantic concerns will always seek profit, it is necessary that both yours and ours ...

    3) The factor of "pressure" on politics through these companies, Siemens and Ge are not the smallest transatlantic concerns, and they have leverage over their adversaries, and they will not want to lose such a profitable deal.

    The only criticism is the share of the state / companies, you need to be at least equal partners, although I think this is fixable.
  20. 0
    4 July 2015 14: 53
    Yes, Siemens worked in Iran, and during the sanctions they simply gave the dummy an order for the equipment to work
  21. 0
    4 July 2015 15: 21
    In the Russian Federation there is no money for their implementation.
    And companies like Siemens just buy technology on paper for nothing and then patent and sell for 20-25 years.
    And in order to patent, you need a sample and its thc.
  22. +1
    4 July 2015 17: 00
    We also have turbines and allocate funds for them. On June 30, 2015, the head of the research and development institute VIAM “Heat-resistant foundry and wrought alloys and steels, protective coatings for gas turbine engine parts”, Candidate of Technical Sciences Olga Gennadievna Ospennikova took part in the meeting “Goals, Tasks and Deadlines for the modernization of the domestic gas turbine engine GTD-110 of OJSC NPO Saturn". The event was held at the All-Russian Thermotechnical Research Institute (VTI OJSC).


    During the meeting, its participants familiarized themselves with the progress of modernization of the GTD-110. Recall that in 2013, by order of OJSC Inter RAO UES, OJSC RUSNANO, OJSC NPO Saturn and NP Center for Innovative Energy Technologies, the expert commission completed the development of a feasibility study for the design of a modernized gas turbine engine GTD-110M . The main objectives of the project are to ensure efficiency, improve the environmental and technical and economic indicators of GTD-110 and CCGT based on it. It is planned to complete the planned work in 2017.


    Within the framework of the meeting, Olga Ospennikova made a presentation “Materials of a new generation and resource-saving technologies for their processing for industrial gas turbines”. In particular, she noted that “the use of new generation materials and technologies for their processing will allow for the creation of powerful CCGT units with increased efficiency up to 60-65%, increasing their operating life up to 60-100 thousand hours, as well as reducing production costs on average by 5-7 times. "


    In addition, Olga Ospennikova gave examples of unique materials and technologies developed at VIAM (smelting of heat-resistant alloys of a new generation, casting of blades with directional and single-crystal structure, isothermal stamping in the air of difficultly deformed heat-resistant alloys, additive technologies, etc.), thanks to which the Institute implements specific projects in the interests of the aviation industry and other industries.


    Speaking about additive technologies, she said that to solve the problem of acute shortage of metal powders of domestic alloys, VIAM organized a closed cycle of additive production of parts of complex technical systems, which "will reduce the cost of domestic powders to the level of foreign production." At the same time, Olga Ospennikova voiced the Institute’s proposal to create an intersectoral engineering center “Powder Compositions and Additive Technologies” based on VIAM with the participation of leading scientific, educational and industrial organizations.


    The head of the VIAM Research Institute also noted the need to develop methods and technologies for non-destructive testing of parts synthesized using additive technologies.


    REFERENCE

    GTD-110 - a gas turbine engine for power plants. The first Russian gas turbine of high power. Single-shaft gas turbines of the GTD-110 series are designed for use as part of gas turbine and combined-cycle power plants GTE-110, PGU-170 and PGU-325 with a capacity of 110, 170 and 325 MW, respectively, for the generation of electric and thermal energy.


    Created in the framework of the Federal Target Program “Fuel and Energy” in accordance with the requirements of RAO UES of Russia for the needs of the Russian energy system. Development and production - OJSC NPO Saturn.
    1. 0
      4 July 2015 18: 30
      Sorry, that is not in the queue, it will be repeated again for the hundredth or another time. I will give you, or not you, the concept of a new physical process, which is not at all difficult to translate into reality. A new physical process, as a new algorithm of processes in a turbine, will lead Russia into the leaders for generations to come. Use tell only with whom it is possible to communicate.
      1. Ostwald
        0
        4 July 2015 20: 20
        Physical processes are, for example, combustion, expansion of heated gases that can do the job (in a heat engine no higher than that permits = Carnot cycle = at a temperature of 300 degrees Kelvin, 100% are not achievable even with the help of reverse heat engines), but they may not will expand, heat transfer from hotter to colder body, etc.
        If it’s not a secret, you can tell me what the novelty of your physical principle is, you probably have something more to do with the construction of any device.
        Can I tell you how much I can if there are any errors and what they consist of.
        1. 0
          4 July 2015 23: 17
          Sorry for the immodesty, but you can hardly tell. You think in terms of academic knowledge. Sorry a thousand times, but this is not a rebuke. The fact is that you perceive the same burning as a kind of abstraction associated with the reference concept of temperature. But you do not perceive temperature as a derivative of the electromagnetic process, or rather the properties of magnetic force flows, which determine temperature as a phenomenon. Zoo, 1000 degrees Kelvin is rather not a fixed concept and phenomenon. This is just a state of a certain process, after which there is an algorithmic transformation of the process into new, so to say unstable, states.
          The point is, in order not to deviate from the topic, it is possible to achieve higher densities of magnetic force processes, which in the "common people" is called temperature, but these phenomena may be due to the dimensionality of the transience, which allows not to destroy the sequence of the process algorithm. This means, we will return to real life, to reach those levels of the so-called nuclear reactions that are generally not perceived as obvious, but are perceived by the method of analysis. After all, the state level is so-called. isotope of water - tritium is only part of the process, which we can state as the level of obvious achievement.
          You see, but all this is not a secret. The question is to whom is all this meant. You absolutely understand that a phenomenon cannot be torn off from the method and method of its implementation. Otherwise, all this would be the chatter of a process that has no prospects of development. Therefore, I will say briefly. There are possibilities for a completely uncomplicated conversion of all known devices into a completely and radically new qualitative transformation of a physical process. And it is simply and banally simply impossible to master this technology if you do not understand the essence of what is happening in that part of the process that occurs precisely in the flow of that outflow substance that we usually do not perceive.
          On the other hand, sorry again for the arrogance that cannot be covered up. Therefore, I am ready to discuss with great pleasure.
          1. 0
            5 July 2015 00: 10
            You propose to create a pulsed detonation jet engine with plasma ring ignition.
            1. 0
              5 July 2015 00: 24
              After all, the most interesting thing is that you think correctly. And not only you. Impulse and detonation are present and this is obvious. And plasma processes also exist, but this is the awesomeness of everything that everyone seems to know, but for some reason they do not embody. Why? Because everything that has been said is not a consequence of an "artificial" process, but is a consequence of a derivative process in a hydro-gas dynamic flow. It’s corny, you just need to create conditions for the GDS so that it manifests well-known properties as an algorithmic process.
          2. Ostwald
            0
            5 July 2015 00: 15
            I perceive combustion as the release of potential energy stored on the outer shells of chemical elements. Which, during their interaction, release electromagnetic radiation that is supplemented by existing radiation and therefore, for example, in the gaseous medium, the chaotic motion of the molecules of the gaseous medium increases and they strike the walls of the vessel with greater frequency trying to bring it into equilibrium than the medium under the piston.
            However, acidification (combustion) can be cold, for example, a fuel cell allows energy to be extracted from fuel with energy without heating (conditionally, of course) and energy with an efficiency higher than that of the Carnot cycle because this no longer applies to the thermal process and therefore the Carnot cycle limits to it does not apply. But in the fuel cell, the movement of the ions is orderly, due to the resulting potential difference on the electrodes as batteries. A convenient thing, but their creation is problematic, although there are working samples and even production, but they are very expensive and highly dependent on the generated current, the higher it is, the lower the efficiency.
            1. 0
              5 July 2015 01: 12
              Well, let's be more serious. What does it mean on the outer shell? It should have some specificity, not an abstraction. Further, I do not try to comment at all because everything has a causal relationship. Or am I wrong?
              1. Ostwald
                0
                5 July 2015 01: 40
                The outer shell of carbon holds hydrogen atoms on it, and has a greater stored energy than in a stronger bond with oxygen, which in turn also carries a supply of energy in two molecules. When he encounters a hydrocarbon, he tries to break his weak bond, forming his stronger bond with both carbon and hydrogen, with the release of energy that he received from plants such as burning wood.
                Enough for today, I'm going to sleep.
                1. 0
                  5 July 2015 11: 11
                  I will not dispute. The invented concept of world order is taken as a process model. And to prove the opposite or otherwise is inappropriate. We ourselves have come up with ourselves and amuse ourselves. But! Let's try to reason differently. The potential energy of any guide. gas to the flow dynamics always, I repeat, always, for each substance (air, water, mercury, etc.) it will be equivalent to what dynamic state it is in. That is, it is a constant in an alternating state and at each point of the flow it is different. That is, mathematically it is very difficult to describe using modern methods. You can only build math. the space in which each point of it hangs in a variable, but in a state consistent with other points. Moreover, the overall increase in the total flow and its kinetic growth. energy causes an increase in potential energy within structural bonds. I think everyone will agree with this? Then the turbine should be arranged in such a way that it could ignite a non-sequential reaction, albeit very fast in the flow of fuel and oxidizer. And it should blow up the structure all at once at any point. When is this possible? I think everyone should know this. Further..
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  24. 0
    4 July 2015 19: 56
    All these conversations are worth what everyone just says, but no one offers a solution to the issues. We push water in a mortar and no more.
  25. 0
    4 July 2015 20: 44
    Efficiency of gas stations in the world.
    Germany 60.75%
    RF (on the Gazprom website) 58%
    USA 57%
    Example:
    Gas turbine (GTE) 10 MW + Steam turbine (CCP) 5.8 MW = 15.8 MW total 58% efficiency
    1. Ostwald
      0
      4 July 2015 20: 53
      You are mistaken. The overall result of efficiency will be below 40%.
      But if 4.2 MW to the environment (a refrigerator) and 5.8 MW on the turbine shaft, then 58% efficiency will really come out.
      If you really want to, from the same turbine you can squeeze out 70% of the efficiency, but the age of the blades will not be long in such a forced mode and they will have to be changed ahead of time without having recouped their cost.
      1. 0
        4 July 2015 20: 59
        GTD is not considered here.
        58% of calories are converted to steam pressure.
        I noticed that Siemens has progressed since they began to remove heat from the GTD itself.
        1. Ostwald
          0
          4 July 2015 21: 11
          Oops really wrong counted for only one turbine. But even you are not right to indicate the removable power of a gas turbine engine and combined cycle power plant, you cannot determine the efficiency from the vapor pressure, without indicating how many gigocalories of steam will be delivered in a cooled condenser or at what temperature the gas turbine engine will leave the turbine into the atmosphere with atmospheric pressure.
          In another way, how to take away heat from gases that have partially already done part of the work on GTE blades, such a high efficiency cannot be obtained from a single energy source, and most likely this scheme was invented even before Siemens.
          1. 0
            4 July 2015 21: 18
            1000 calories = (almost) 1 kilowatt in a physics textbook.
            Surprisingly, an interesting phrase is written in physics "it is considered to be".
            Funny.
            1. Ostwald
              +1
              4 July 2015 21: 31
              Yes, the standards of physics have their own non-stupidities, for example, take 1 horsepower which is equal to 736 watts and an electric motor of the same power of 736 watts and force them to perform the same work, for example, to turn a wheel to raise water from a river. After 12 hours of operation, we will have to replace that horse with another one, and why shouldn’t the electric motor change it at least? He is (he is powered by electricity) and will not ask to sleep.
  26. 0
    4 July 2015 22: 05
    A complete victory in the gap in a gas turbine installation will be only if this plant has its own Design Bureau for gas turbines. And without it, this plant is just a platform for the assembly of imported technologies. It is necessary to learn and learn from experience !!!
  27. 0
    4 July 2015 22: 58
    the author correctly raised the topic of sabotage and transferring a sphere of strategic importance to foreigners, now let the redhead think when the Americans and the evil Siemens, and you must remember that it was Siemens who threw Iran with the construction of a nuclear power plant in Bushehr, will stop the production of gas and steam turbines due to sanctions. that his foot derailed a serious industry. Why did Zorya keep the technology? It is visible red there less.
  28. 0
    5 July 2015 01: 40
    Firstly, the fact that there is a large-block assembly on the territory of the Russian Federation does not mean that this high-tech belongs to the Russian Federation. the second is that all patents belong to Siemens and no one is going to transfer them.
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