Myths of Tsushima

167


Dear readers, this material is a response to the articles of Alexander Samsonov and Oleg Kaptsov, dedicated to the Tsushima battle. To my deep regret, in articles by respected authors, we again (for the umpteenth time!) Read about the “bad preparation of Russian commanders,” “overloaded with coal battleships”, “unintelligent Russian command” and other myths of Tsushima that were rooted in the public consciousness.

Huge problem historical science consists in the existence of the so-called “folk history” - a story for the masses that gravitates towards simple and understandable interpretations of past events, but which has very little in common with a real, real history. One example of the Volks-Histori is precisely the generally accepted interpretation of the Tsushima battle. There is a historically reliable fact - the Russian squadron underwent a terrible defeat, failing to inflict the opposing Japanese the fleet not that of equal, but at least any significant losses. This fact is undeniable. The lost battle stirred our compatriots, the society demanded an answer to the question: “How could this happen? Who's guilty?!" And the answers were found ... Simple, understandable and therefore having very little in common with reality. Real life is much more complex and multifaceted fourth-grade history textbook.

What do we read from year to year in articles and materials devoted to Tsushima? Yes, in fact, the same thing - the sad story of how untrained crews, recruited from the forest and from the pine, diluted with penalty boxes (where they were not) were sent directly into the mouth of the over-trained and "super-alloyed" Japanese fleet. At the same time, the talentless satrap-tyrant was put at the head of the Russian army, experiencing a completely unhealthy craving for coal, breaking thousands of binoculars about the heads of their subordinates, but completely unable to figure out that the squadron entrusted to its care should have been trained a little before the battle. And of course, this satrap, meeting face to face with the Japanese superhero commander, fell into complete prostration and lost the battle with a crushing score. All clear!

Without claiming the ultimate truth at all, I will try to present some facts and considerations that significantly change our picture of the campaign and battle of the Second Pacific Squadron. I hope that even those who disagree with my interpretation of those distant events (and there will be many of them, I do not doubt it) will understand, however, that the reasons for the defeat of the Russian squadron are much more complicated than we used to consider.

On the preparation of Russian gunners

Typically, sources write the following: before the war, the Russian fleet commanders learned to shoot 7-10 cables (and 25 KBT was already considered a very large distance), but the Second Pacific did not have time to go through a normal course of combat training. Its commander, Admiral Rozhestvensky, did not organize shooting training in the march, as a result, in battle, the level of our gunners was lower than the lowest. Alexander Samsonov writes:

Thus, the 2-I Pacific Squadron was poorly prepared, in fact, did not receive combat training.


But what is interesting is that it is generally accepted that the preparation of the First Pacific Squadron, based in Port Arthur, was at a quite satisfactory level. Let's look at the results achieved by it. 28 July 1904 in the battle of Shantung, which took place when Vitgeft led the Russian squadron on a breakthrough, 32 (or 33, one unreliable hit) of all calibres, including those not installed, got into the Japanese ships. Under Tsushima, Mikado ships suffered much more - according to N.J.M. Campbell’s article “The battle of Tsushima” from Warship International (1978, part of 3), ships of the first and second armored units (i.e., 12 battleships and armored cruisers of the main forces) received 156 hits. The total number of hits on Japanese ships was, according to the "Surgical and medical description of the sea war between Japan and Russia." (Tokyo Medical Department Maritime Bureau - 1905. "" About 117 shells with a caliber of 120 mm and above and about as many calibers ". Ie more than 230 hits!

These figures alone make one seriously doubt the thesis about the allegedly poor training of the Russian 2-th Pacific artillerymen. And if we try to dig a little bit, then we will be completely surprised by the colossal difference in the level of 1-th and 2-Pacific squadrons.

The battle at Shanthung consisted of 2 phases of about an hour of each 2. The first phase of the battle began at a distance of 70 or even 80 KB, and closer to 45-50 KB, the ships of the opposing sides did not converge (although there are references to the distance 45-50 KBT as the average firing distance, but this is most likely a mistake). The second phase is much more interesting - in it the commander of the Japanese fleet of Togo was substituted in full. Forced to catch up with the Russian squadron (which for some reason he had missed by himself before), he set up his flagship Mikas just opposite the middle of our formation. As a result, all 6 Russian battleships could shoot at Mikas. Judging by the number of hits (out of the total number of 32-33 hits on Japanese ships, Mikasa accounts for 24), the Russians tried to take advantage of this. Conditions for the fight were very good - the weather was calm, there was no excitement. And the distance for the Russian sailors was more familiar - the battle began approximately from 40 KB (perhaps 45 KB), by the end of the battle, the parties moved closer to 23 KB. Shoot - I do not want! However, in about 3,5-4 hours of war, six Russian battleships were able to achieve just a little more than three dozen hits.

In the start of the Tsushima battle, only five Russian battleships and, perhaps, Navarin could shoot at Mikas.



But we must remember that the “Eagle” joined the battle with a delay, besides, “Mikasa”, turning around, went across the path of the Russian squadron, and our battleships could not shoot at it all overboard - only part of the guns fought. The distance was relatively small - 37-38 KBT, but the excitement is so strong that the Japanese did not consider it possible to use their destroyers (they brought them out later, towards evening), so that the aiming of the guns was difficult.

However, according to information from the report of Captain Packinham, a British observer stationed at Asahi, within fifteen minutes of the start of the fight, from 14: 10 to 14: 25, Mikasa received NINETAYED hits - five 12 "and fourteen 6" shells. Another six hits were other Japanese ships.

A small remark: Japanese time differs from that indicated by the Russians on 20 minutes, since the Japanese counted the time on the Kyoto meridian, and on the Russian squadron on the meridian of the midday place before the battle, so the above Japanese time corresponds to Russian time: 13: 50 - 14: 05.

“The first Russian volleys saved the Japanese from pleasant illusions. There was not a hint of indiscriminate firing, on the contrary, for a distance of 9 thousands of yards it was unusually accurate shooting, and in the first few minutes Mikaz and Sikishima received a number of hits six-inch shells ... "


So, the experienced Pacific first commanders under the command of Witgeft took almost 4 hours to hit the 24 Mikas with shells. And Rozhestvensky's “lumpsters”, who were in much worse conditions (an unfavorable angle, because of which part of the guns could not shoot, were very excited) for 19 hits, it took 15 minutes. Something here ends meet somehow wrong ...

So how did the Russian Second Pacific commanders train? A word to the senior officer of the battleship "Eagle", captain of 2 rank Schwede:

Answering a question about practical shooting on the Oryol battleship from the beginning of the campaign until it entered the battle, one cannot but admit that these battleships fell in very limited quantities. The battleship Oryol, due to its unavailability, joined the squadron on 20 in September, when other ships of the detachment carried out practical shooting and were almost completed by them.


Stop, stop, stop. So, did the 2 Pacific ships still do practical shooting before going on the march? And not just fulfilled, but also “almost finished” them in 20-s of September? So it is, testifies Schwede:

“I believe that on the other ships of the 2 Pacific squadron there was absolutely no battle for the cast-iron shells, because, I repeat once again, these ships fired at Revel during 2 and 3 weeks; our battleship "Eagle" came to Revel at the end of September - a HIGHEST review squadron soon followed, went to Libava, and from there urgently left, soon after coming there, to the east. "


And what about the "Eagle"?



But let's not interrupt the testimony of the Swedes, given to them by the Investigation Commission for the Tsushima battle:

With the battleship "Eagle" in Revel fired from the barrels Berdan cartridges from 47-mm guns at a fixed target during the day. They also shot 2 times at night from 47-mm guns at a signal from the admiral, on alarm, with combat lighting of fixed shields. Then the guns on duty fired, and everything, for firing, 20 — 30 shells were fired. In the case of Gull, 2 shots were fired from 6’s right-handed 13s; 47-shots were fired from 75-mm and 480-mm shells; 2 shots were fired from 300’s 3 12-ln. Bullets. Standing in Nossi-be, the Eagle went three times to fire; here, for these shots, for each 10 "1 cannon piece. shots. The entire stock of practical (cast iron) projectiles on our battleship did not have time to shoot, some of them, around 3 / 47, remained. While stationed in Kamrang, they still managed to shoot from XNUMX mm barrels. guns ammunition Berdan, that's all that could serve as a practice for our gunners.


All on battleship "Orel" was made extra ammunition for practical shooting over state 40 305-mm, 180 152-mm, 300 75-mm, 1 500 47-mm and 2 850 37-mm practice shots, but only 4 870 training projectile . Of these, 40 305-mm shells were spent, and from other 2 / 3 shells. Total goes 3260 shells.

And how did the Japanese prepare for the meeting with Rozhestvensky? Thanks to some Japanese pranksters, a bike about five ammunition charges, allegedly fired from each Japanese gun, went for a walk, after which these guns themselves were replaced with new ones.

“Japanese officers said that after the capitulation of Port Arthur, in anticipation of the second squadron, they were preparing for her meeting in this way: each gunner fired five combat shells from his gun when firing at the target. Then the worn guns were all replaced with new ones. ” Vl. Semyonov. "Pay".


I do not reproach Vladimir Ivanovich Semenov at all, it simply repeated what I heard. But after all, the guns of those times could hardly withstand the execution of "five ammunition" - but even if it were so, all the same, by the end of such a shooting, the guns would have become utterly worthless. And where would Japan take hundreds of guns to replace them for the entire fleet?

According to the report of captain T. Jackson, at the spring 1905 of the Mikasa shooting practice, he fired 8 (EIGHT) main caliber projectiles. (The battleship "Eagle" released them 40). And there were no other caliber firing from the Japanese battleship. The rest of the time, the Japanese were entertaining themselves with stun guns, and that’s that. In total, according to Japanese documents, "Mikasa" fired over 9 thousands of bullets and projectiles, imitating the shooting of medium and large-caliber guns. According to the Eagle, there are no such data, but there is a reasonable assumption that at least 8 thousands were spent by rifle bullets alone, and that is not counting the shells of other calibers that we calculated above 3260.

Interesting ... The Russian squadron went through a full course of artillery preparation before it was sent, i.e. The commander graduates of the training detachment, where they were taught to shoot from quite decent guns of our coastal defense battleships Ushakov, Senyavin and Apraksin, were assigned to the newest warships, and there they were still shooting for weeks at 2-3. Well, and those ships that did not have time to fire, loaded with training shells to get their norm in the campaign. At the same time, according to Shwede, the intensity of the shooting was such that all stocks of training shells of the 2 Pacific squadron were shot.

Already this alone considerably changes the perception we are used to by the Russian commanders of the 2 Pacific squadron, whom we are accustomed to regard as a crowd of untrained men from a plow. The Japanese were preparing for a meeting with our ships and were preparing quite intensively, but the Russians (comparing the consumption of projectiles and cartridges from the Eagle and Mikasy) organized an even more intensive training. And this is despite the fact that the Russian squadron, in fact, was on the march, while the Japanese were at their bases.

And now let's look at it also from which side: what did the admiral have to think about all this? Everything seems to be in order, the “course of the young fighter” has been passed, and such an ordinary commander as we used to think of Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky clearly had to be satisfied with this. The squadron is ready to fight with the Japanese!

Here are just Z.P. Rozhestvensky considered "a little" different. The admiral was convinced that the training received by his gunners was categorically insufficient and he DEMANDS for his ships additional training shells. The word shvede:

As for the question of whether it was possible to supply the 2 Pacific Squadron with shells for practical shooting, I find it difficult to say, I think it is quite possible that it would not be difficult if the shells were ready at that time, they could be success in transporting one of the transports that accompanied the squadron, but the fact of the matter is that, as the flagship artillery officer Beresnev said, there were no shells ready in the port of Kronstadt when we left, and that if they were in Nossi-be so far not sent - it means that they did not b children, that we must turn to what we have and need to remember that we are given everything we could give.


All that was available in the warehouses, Rozhestvensky loaded onto his ships and spent (the remnants of the Orel truth remain a mystery, however, quite understandable), and additional shells (which were just to be produced) were to be delivered to the squadron Irtysh. But someone particularly wise from under the spitz decided that it would be better if these shells would wait for the squadron in Vladivostok - and sent them by rail, so that the "Irtysh" joined the fleet with only a load of coal ...

Bitter reproach comes through in the answers of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky representatives of the Investigation Commission:

In the second squadron there was very little practical shooting. I do not remember exactly how many shots were fired from the guns of each caliber.

The navy ministry could with sufficient accuracy answer the question whether there was a possibility of additional supply of the second squadron with combat reserves for practice in shooting while sailing and to indicate what was being done for this.

I was promised to send in combat along the Irtysh transport combat reserves for shooting training, but after the squadron sailed from the Baltic Sea, the reserves received from the factories received a different purpose.


Rozhdestvensky's critics love to talk about the following: you can release both 100 and 200 shells into a fixed shield standing in the 10 cable from the gun, but this does not teach the commander to hit the enemy going to 14 from the 40-70 cable distance. How many reproaches were made to Admiral Rozhestvensky about this! After all, he could appreciate the increased range of artillery combat, could organize the training of his gunners in relation to new realities, could ... but did not, and therefore blame.

And it was not known to the gentlemen who criticized the admiral, how, in fact, the teachings of Zinovy ​​Petrovich were organized. A word to the senior artillery officer of the battleship Sisoy the Great, lieutenant S. A. Malechkin:

“Shooting was always carried out by a squadron under the personal command and guidance of the squadron commander, Vice-Admiral Rozhestvensky ... Shooting was carried out over long distances, approximately starting from the 70 cab. and before 40 cab., but “Sisoy the Great” usually began firing with the 60 cab. from 12 "guns, and from 50 cab. from 6" guns, because the elevation angles of the guns did not allow to use more table range ... ... Shooting was arranged as required by the combat situation, each time the distance was measured with both Barr and Strude instruments, as well as rangefinders - micrometer Lyuzhol, and both those and others served for mutual control. The distances thus obtained were transferred to the battery and the towers with the aid of the Heusler instruments, and in addition, there was also a voice transmission. Negotiation pipes and not telephones enjoyed great confidence. Before the shooting started, usually the lead ships of their detachments (“Suvorov”, “Oslyabya” and others.) Determined the distances either by zeroing or instruments and showed this distance to their matelotas with a signal, and then everyone acted independently. ”




Apparently, Rozhestvensky was the first in the Russian fleet to organize shooting training at such ranges.

The opinion about the disgusting training of Russian artillerymen and the lack of talent of the commander of the 2 Pacific squadron, who failed to organize training for the personnel entrusted to him, is as widespread as it is mistaken. In fact, everything was exactly the opposite - the sailors made every effort to prepare the squadron for the march and battle. Admiral Rozhestvensky not only sanctioned the unprecedented intensity of the training of artillerymen, scraping stocks of training shells to dryness, but also, having managed to understand the changed realities of the naval war, organized the training of 2 of the Pacific Squadron in the march as it had never been in the Russian fleet. And the Russian sailors shot at Tsushima very well.

Unfortunately, it is absolutely impossible to derive the percentage of hits for each side. Just because, knowing the number of hits in the Japanese ships, we do not know how many shells were fired by the Russian ships - many of them died, and the cost of the shells would never be known to anyone. At the same time, the consumption of projectiles in Japanese ships is known, but the number of hits is not, since we estimate how many shells hit Suvorov, Alexandra, Borodino, etc. we can not. And yet some conclusions are possible.

Russian squadron battleships had a hefty problem - the low rate of fire of the 305-mm Obukhov guns. They fired once a minute and a half, or even less, while Japanese 305-mm could shoot every 40-50 seconds. Subsequently, this lack of Russian artillery was corrected, but it happened after the Russian-Japanese war, and then ... In the battle at Shantung, four Japanese battleships fired 603 305-mm projectile, or approximately 150 shells on the ship, while the four Russian equipped with 12-inch artillery ("Tsesarevich", "Retvisan", "Poltava", "Sevastopol") - only 344 (on average 86 per battleship), and this despite the numerous ruptures of the barrels of Japanese guns, significantly reduced fire performance (to the end of the battle for this reason Japanese 5 305-mm guns from 16 failed. In Tsushima, the consumption of Japanese shells was significantly less - 446 shells or roughly 111 shells per battleship, although it should be borne in mind that this is the total consumption of shells and 14 and 15 in May. And how many shells fired Russian battleships?

Kostenko, indicated in his memoirs that in the morning of May 15 there were 52 305-mm projectiles in the bow cellars, four more (two armor-piercing and high-explosive) in the stern cellar. A total of 240 305-mm and 40 training shells were loaded onto the Eagle. Training was spent, respectively, according to Kostenko, 14 May was released 184 projectile main caliber.

We just don’t need to believe Kostenko’s memoirs in any case, the whole point is that we know the exact number of shells left after the battle on the battleship. From the "Estimated statements of weapons and ammunition that were on the ship" Iwami "" (the former "Eagle"), published in the "Top Secret War at Sea 37-38. Meiji, ”in 8, Finance and Supply, annexed to Trophies 2, it follows that the Japanese had removed 188 main-caliber shells from the Eagle. Thus, in battle, the battleship spent the entire 52 305-mm projectile.

Here, however, the question arises - why do I believe the Japanese documents, and not the memoirs of a compatriot? Well, first of all, no matter how regretful it is to say, the memory often brings memoirs. The same Kostenko, for example, in his memoirs indicated an overload of “Eagle” with coal in 370 tons, and shells - in 91 ton, but earlier, he told the Investigation Commission about tons of coal and 400 tons of shells. Secondly, I strongly doubt that Kostenko personally counted the ammunition in the Orel towers - rather, he called from someone he heard numbers that he could have misunderstood. And the third ... sadly it sounds, but it should be remembered that the "Eagle" was surrendered to the enemy, and his officers had a motive to present the case in more black colors than it was in reality. According to Kostenko, the battleship received about 80 hits (the Japanese and the British observer confirm 300-60).



A ship that has received 300 hits, which has approximately 1 / 5 ammunition left, is psychologically easier to hand over than a ship that has received 76 hits and having almost 4 / 5 ammunition. This, of course, is only speculation, it is extremely unpleasant to suspect those who fought in the wrong way, but I have to take this hypothesis into account. At the same time, the Japanese seemed to have no reason to distort the data on the “Eagle” - the fact is that their “Secret War” was indeed secret and was intended solely for official use.

And finally, the fourth. Consumption in 52 305-mm projectile on the "Eagle" - is about half less than the average on the Japanese battleships (111), which corresponds to the statistics of the battle at Shantung, but taking on trust Kostenko's data, we find that the Russians shot 1,65 times faster than the Japanese, which is highly doubtful.

If the Eagle, leading the battle all day, fired 52 projectiles of the main caliber, then other battleships of the Borodino type, obviously, fired them even less, because they were incapacitated long before the end of the battle. But even if we assume that every Russian battleship with 305-mm artillery (there were seven of them in all - four battleships of the Borodino type, Sisoy the Great, Navarin and Nikolay I) fired an average of 52 shells each, get an 364 305-mm shot.

At the same time, Campbell writes that the Russians achieved 47 hits with heavy projectiles (from 8 to 12 inches), of which all but 10 or so were 12-inches. This is a good result, especially considering the weather conditions of the battle and the general defeat of the Russian fleet.

If we assume that the Russian fleet has achieved 37 hits with 305 mm shells, then the percentage of hits will be 10,16%. This is even a little more than the Japanese achieved at Shantung in a battle with 1 Pacific (603 spent 305-mm projectile, from 57 to 61 hits, respectively 9,45-10,11%) and many times more than the battleships of Vitgeft (344 XNUM-X) shots, 305 hits, 12%). In Tsushima, the percentage of hits of the Japanese was probably higher than that of the Russians, but the fact that the squadron, which had not previously fought, Rozhdestvensky “reached” the level of their commanders to at least the Japanese level of the 3,49 model on July 28, says a lot.

Finally, a word to the senior artilleryman of the cruiser Aurora, Lieutenant Losev:

We now turn to the description of those preparatory artillery exercises that, according to the order of the squadron commander, were carried out throughout the squadron, and hence on our ship. At the same time, not a dry attitude was pursued as, for example, the notorious memorized, consonant, one-time turns to the right, to the left; we didn’t need these beautiful evolution of cannons as, for example, with the “battery for meeting” team, we didn’t need trainings with team members that such and such numbers had dropped out, and therefore there are no number changes; after all, this is all implausible, and people, having become accustomed to these equilibristic exercises, would certainly be lost in battle, and we had to prepare such a team that would never, under any circumstances, be lost, which, for example, that an enemy shell hit the cruiser, made a hole, killing and wounding several people, made a fire; the team, which, despite the unexpectedness of such news, was obliged in this case to immediately show its combat readiness, knowing their places in advance, in orderly order, would strive to bring the ship back to serviceable condition, should have almost simultaneously put out the fire, put a plaster on the place of the hole, carpenters with the necessary tools and materials to run to an imaginary hole, to run there to the bilge mechanics, to help servants prepare pumps for pumping out water, to prepare for leveling the bank, etc.


About coal handling

Another heart-rending story is about how a stupid Russian admiral overloaded his battleships with coal so that those armored belts went under water, stability dropped, and after an artillery duel the ships turned upside down the keel. Kostenko, as I mentioned above, writes where about 370, and where about 400-ton coal overload (that is, not counting other overload, everything, according to Kostenko, Orel was overloaded with 1090-1150 tons). But what really happened?

In the morning of May 13, the Eagle responded to the traditional request from Prince Suvorov that 1 095 tons of coal were available (Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905. Fleet operations. Documents. Division IV. Book Three. 5 release. Fgd , 1914, p. 69). Considering the fact that the normal supply of coal was 787 tons, it can be stated that the day before the fight, the Eagle’s transshipment with coal did not exceed 308 tons. Taking into account the fact that daily fuel consumption on the battleship reached 128 tons, it is easy to calculate that the overload to the beginning of the battle over coal was about 180 tons, and the total fuel supply was 960-970 tons. Is it a lot or a little?

Rozhestvensky's critics forget (or do not know) one simple fact. In the fierce battle, which only could have been expected at the passage of the Tsushima Strait, frequent falling into the chimneys of ships is usual. A leaky pipe is a tremendous drop in thrust and, as a result, increased coal consumption. How elevated? The ancestor of the Borodino series, the battleship Tsesarevich, after the battle of Shantunge was forced to spend 600 (SIX HUNDRED) tons of coal per day. So Rozhestvensky, of course, could ease the overload by taking an incomplete supply of coal. But the fact that at least half of his squadron would have stopped at the exit from the strait with empty coal holes after the battle, there is no doubt, and the admiral could only blame himself.

In fact, Admiral Rozhdestvensky did quite right - he took coal in reloading, insuring himself against the case of combat damage, but not so much that this overload seriously affected the fighting qualities of Russian ships. But then where do all these statements about cockpit cabins and cabins, filled with coal? But from where.

For some reason, the critics of Rozhestvensky are not at all interested in what the coal handling on the Japanese ships was. Either because they are piously convinced that the Japanese were already in perfect order, or because the Japanese admiral is duller for them to criticize than the Russian. But that's what really happened ...

The corresponding observation was recorded by captain T. Jackson in a report from 25 of May 1905 in the book “THE RUSSO-JAPANESE WAR. 1904-1905. Reports from naval attachés »:

“It was a sad day, there was a fog over the sea. Adzuma received 200 tons of coal, which has lined the upper deck thoroughly. Several other ships also took coal, some for the second time in three days. In 17: 00 "Mikasa" entered the harbor. He had a large amount of coal on the upper deck and sat very deep in the water, so that the heels of the poles of the mine networks were completely submerged. All fighters and destroyers had on the decks a load of coal. In the evening, steam and powerboats were sent from the shore to all ships and were raised by them. No explanation was received, but this is supposed to be due to a possible attempt by the Russians to reach Vladivostok by the Tsugaru or La Perouse straits, which would force the Japanese fleet to operate at some distance from its current base. ”


Attention, question! And why is the United Fleet suddenly imagined that the Russians would bypass Japan? The answer is surprisingly simple. Early in the morning of 24 on May 1905, an urgent telegram from the naval attache from London arrived at the Japanese MGSH, according to which, referring to the British Navy Ministry, on Russian ships, coal was loaded into all possible premises, including the commanders' cabins, and the squadron was ready for 33-x daily transition. This confirmed the version that the Second Pacific Squadron would bypass Japan, although the headquarters of the United Fleet continued to doubt it.

I don’t know whether Rozhestvensky specifically did this misinformation, or it happened by chance, but the fact is: having dismissed rumors about a catastrophic coal overload, but taking this coal not so much, the Russian squadron had a minimal coal overload for the Battle of Tsushima It is necessary in case of combat damage and the fall of thrust - so as not to be with empty coal holes after the battle. But the information about the admiral closet clogged with coal forced the Japanese to fill their own ships with bags of coal, so that the United Fleet entered the battle, carrying much more coal than the Russian battleships. This may seem ridiculous, but, apparently, it was Mikasa who entered the battle with the armor-belts that went under the water ... Was it by chance, specifically, but Rozhestvensky apparently outplayed Kheikhatiro of Togo in this matter.

But the Folks Historius brought to us only the words of the erroneous British radiogram, raised to the axiom: Rozhdestvensky enormously loaded his ships with coal, filling up their quarters. Because of this, they lost their stability and drowned.

Closing the topic of ships turning upside down as a result of loss of stability, I note that “Prince Suvorov” has suffered so many hits, including torpedoes, that it’s absurd to talk about the loss of its stability as a result of overload. No battleship of the world would suffer such blows. "Borodino" died as a result of the detonation of ammunition in the cellar of the tower of six-inch guns. Three British battlecruisers in Jutland died from such a detonation. Do we also blame them on coal? Or maybe their team was poisoned by cookies? In essence, only “Alexander III” died from the loss of stability, and everything is not so simple with him. Therefore, it is impossible to talk about the mass destruction of our ships due to low stability, and it’s impossible to blame the coal overload for this.

To be continued ...
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167 comments
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  1. +10
    17 June 2015 06: 42
    The namesake, when to continue ???
    1. +9
      17 June 2015 10: 01
      Soon :) I’ll try to post it today, the deadline is tomorrow.
      1. +5
        17 June 2015 12: 00
        So there was no overload, they knew how to shoot, Christmas is a normal naval commander. Kostenko has a bad memory. Why then is such a rout ???? hi
        1. +3
          17 June 2015 13: 03
          Let's wait for the continuation! We will find out there winked
        2. +9
          17 June 2015 15: 17
          33 Mikasa shell - and how many exploded?
          most simply pierced the ship through, the increase in the humidity of pyroxylin led to the fact that combat shells were equal in effectiveness to training - cast iron ...

          increasing the humidity of pyroxylin - a recommendation given by the British ...
          1. +2
            17 June 2015 16: 20
            Hello from Admiral Brink ...
            1. Fleent
              +1
              6 July 2015 21: 37
              Lieutenant General Brink headed the GIMA in 1907-11. Tsushima guns and shells for them were adopted in 1891-92. In 1891-94 GIMA was headed by Makarov. That's it.
          2. 0
            19 June 2015 00: 16
            Quote: Kostoprav
            33 Mikasa shell - and how many exploded?

            The fact that Mikasa was not sent to the dry dock for repairs after so many hits says a lot. As well as whether there were these hits?
            1. 0
              19 June 2015 00: 26
              Quote: tomket
              As for whether there were these hits?

              Do not trust Japanese sources? Oh well
              1. +2
                19 June 2015 00: 42
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Do not trust Japanese sources? Oh well

                The number of hits does not negate the fact of minor damage caused by them. Mikasa out of action for a year? Not at all. The issue was removed from the agenda.
                1. +2
                  19 June 2015 00: 57
                  Quote: tomket
                  The number of hits does not negate the fact of minor damage caused by them. Mikasa out of action for a year? Not at all. The issue was removed from the agenda.

                  I will remove the question from the agenda when I see fit. There is a fundamental difference between how many shells hit the enemy and how much damage the enemy received as a result of these hits.
                  If the enemy suffered little damage because they didn’t hit him much, this is the fault of the artillerymen and those who trained them along the squadron commander, inclusive. If there were enough hits, but the enemy still did not suffer significant damage - the blame should be blamed on those who designed and / or manufactured ammunition.
                  This is monoenergetic for you, I see. But to many others - no
            2. 0
              19 June 2015 09: 37
              If they were above the waterline (or slightly lower) then why dry dock?
        3. Lex
          +1
          17 June 2015 18: 55
          Because from the very beginning the very idea of ​​going around the world and joining the battle without overhaul is suicide, and the crew is not to blame for this.
          1. +1
            17 June 2015 19: 58
            Quote: Lex
            join the battle without overhaul

            What does the overhaul have to do with it? Thank God not a single car refused, everyone had a move
            I read somewhere that Nebogatov, making practical firing, was unpleasantly surprised by the inaccuracy of the rangefinders, had to check them out. Was it possible to verify the rangefinders of the entire squadron. Also, someone expressed the idea that a certain error could be made by the rotation of the Earth, in different latitudes, differently
            1. Lex
              +2
              17 June 2015 21: 44
              The given figures for the hits are quite adequate. Those. firing control devices certainly influenced, but were not critical. The Japanese also had their own problems. I just don’t want to voice particularly what Andrei will probably describe later, but the approximate meaning was this: the Pacific Squadron could not technically go round to Vladivostok as a whole due to the critical wear of the mechanisms.
              Those. we are talking about the survival of the squadron in battle, when even without a battle it was limited to fit at the time of the tragedy.
            2. +3
              18 June 2015 00: 08
              I wonder how the rotation of the Earth can affect the properties of the optical rangefinder. If sclerosis doesn’t fail me, the parallax is measured there ... In order to influence this optical value, the speed of moving objects should be comparable to the speed of light ... Something tells me that even the third cosmic speed is less than the speed of light much, much .. .
              Another thing is that the features of the Earth’s rotation could affect the flight of the rifled gun’s shell, which requires changing not the settings of the rangefinders, but the shooting calculation tables ...
              If you think differently and have clear arguments about this, then correct it, but don't say strange things about optical rangefinders at different latitudes.
              I will make an addition:
              V.P. Grandchildren. Artillery. Why does the projectile fly at night at the same distance, what, and day?
              Source: http://wio.ru/galgrnd/artill/art38/v116.htm
              It turns out that the point here is the changed air resistance. The density of air is not always the same: it varies mainly with temperature. When it is warm and the barometric pressure is low, the air density is less: when it is cold or the pressure is high, the air density is greater. It got colder at night. The air has become denser. His resistance increased. To overcome this increased resistance, the projectile spends more energy than during the warm day hours, and therefore does not reach. This also explains the large changes in the range of projectiles that can be observed when firing at different times of the year - in summer and winter. On a hot sunny day, the gun can throw the projectile much further than in a cold winter. The wind has a great influence on the flight of the projectile. In a headwind, the velocity of the projectile relative to air increases, which means that the air resistance also increases. Therefore, with a headwind, the projectile falls closer than in calm weather.

              I think that this confirms my note. hi
              1. 0
                18 June 2015 19: 38
                Quote: Aqela
                If you think differently and have clear arguments about this, then correct it, but don't say strange things about optical rangefinders at different latitudes.

                I think that you did not understand me, but it is possible that I wrote clumsily)
                and by the way, I did not talk about the properties of rangefinders in different latitudes
                p1-during practical shooting, mismatch of distance, alignment of range finders
                n2-as you correctly wrote, Earth's rotation could affect the flight of the rifled gun’s shell, which requires changing not the settings of the rangefinders, but the shooting calculation tables ...
                http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1784
          2. -3
            19 June 2015 00: 18
            Quote: Lex
            Because from the very beginning the very idea of ​​going around the world and joining the battle without overhaul is suicide, and the crew is not to blame for this.

            Actually, for example, for the British, such trips were a boring everyday routine. We have something like that, so immediately in the rank of "unparalleled, unparalleled" ......
            1. +4
              19 June 2015 00: 33
              Quote: tomket
              In fact, for example, for the British, such trips were a boring everyday routine.

              In fact, your knowledge of history is simply depressing. Because the only sea voyage at least relatively reminiscent of the 2TOE passage is the round-the-world voyage of the American Great White Fleet, which began in 1907. But the British in those days preferred to keep their battleships in England and Mediterranean, they mainly went to the Far East of the 2nd class and small cruising squadrons. The British did not send anything similar to 2TOE to the Far East.
              At the same time, you need to understand the difference when the squadron goes in peacetime and all ports and bases are at its disposal (of which there are also a bunch of their native countries) and a 2TO expedition, which was practically not allowed anywhere.
              British marine historian Westwood said so
              For coal steam ships of the pre-turbine era, the campaign from Libau to the Sea of ​​Japan, in the complete absence of friendly bases along the way, was a real feat - an epic that deserves a separate book

              But where to Westwood before you :)))
            2. 0
              19 June 2015 09: 35
              The British, with the collapse of their empire in unprecedented, then recorded a campaign 2,5-3 times shorter distance to the Falklands in 1982, although there were already no coal vessels and still had two or three bases along the way there. feel
        4. +2
          17 June 2015 19: 40
          Quote: alekc73
          Why then is such a rout ????

          It’s just that the damage to the Japanese did not affect the performance characteristics of the ships, but ours did. And yet, a hit does not mean that the shell
          Roughly speaking, Mikasa withstood these 19 hits without losing combat efficiency and control, but Suvorov did not.
          As for the defeat, it happened at night and the next day, when the squadron dispersed and in each case the Japanese had the advantage
        5. 0
          17 June 2015 22: 35
          As far as I remember, I read in "Tsushima" something like this: when Ruski shells hit, they pierced the enemy's ships through and through, and they exploded inside, breaking through the armor, I think Pikul did not take it from the ceiling. Thus, the loss of personnel when Japanese shells hit was much higher than when shells R.I., THIS DIDNED ON THE COMBAT POSSIBILITIES OF THE SHIPS, BUT I THINK THAT THERE WERE OTHER REASONS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE AUTHOR'S LESS RATE OF FIRING OF OUR guns.
          1. 0
            19 June 2015 00: 21
            Quote: Suhow
            the loss of personnel when hit by Japanese shells was much higher than when hit by shells

            The loss of personnel was also due to the fact that the calculations of the second and third calibers, which were practically useless at long distances, remained in their places. Here you are.
            1. 0
              19 June 2015 00: 35
              Each word contains 3 mistakes. especially amused "long distances" in the battle of Tsushima, that's five!
              1. -1
                19 June 2015 00: 39
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                especially amused "long distances"

                What, there were boarding fights? Or is it an example of long-range combat for you, is the shooting of the Scharnhorst by the Duke of York?
                1. 0
                  19 June 2015 00: 40
                  And what, in your opinion, is everything that is not boarding - it's long distances? laughing
                  Thank you for having fun.
                  1. 0
                    19 June 2015 00: 45
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And what, in your opinion, is everything that is not boarding - it's long distances?
                    Thank you for having fun.

                    I'm glad you have fun). However, in the absence of threats from the destroyers, ALL mine action artillery is useless. And keeping calculations around her is at least stupid.
                  2. -1
                    19 June 2015 01: 01
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And what, in your opinion, is everything that is not boarding - it's long distances?
                    Thank you for having fun.

                    By the way, at the time of Tsushima, 25 cable were considered long distances, in terms of -4,5 km. So you are a frank jolly))))
                    1. +1
                      19 June 2015 01: 03
                      Quote: tomket
                      By the way, at the time of Tsushima, 25 cable ones were considered long distances,

                      Fantasy, unclouded by reason :)) 25 kb was considered a great distance to the REV. And at what distances Rozhestvensky trained his commandors described in the article.
                      Quote: tomket
                      So you are a frank jolly))))

                      Why not laugh at militant illiteracy?
      2. +8
        17 June 2015 14: 09
        Soon :) I’ll try to post it today, the deadline is tomorrow.
        Thank you for the rehabilitation of Russian sailors! They accomplished a feat. After all, it is strange to consider Tsushima a disgrace, and the Tallinn passage to Kronstadt with 46 sunken ships and 30000 people who fell in 1941 the crown of glory.
        1. +2
          18 June 2015 00: 26
          Vryatli samurai would be recognized as the heroes of the opposing Russian sailors, if the Russians were inept and stupid! The recognition itself speaks of the success of the squadron that gave the first-class battle!
          1. Fleent
            0
            6 July 2015 21: 48
            Recognizing third-rate sailors is inexpensive.
            About "success of actions" is strong. Appreciated the joke.
        2. 0
          18 June 2015 00: 26
          Vryatli samurai would be recognized as the heroes of the opposing Russian sailors, if the Russians were inept and stupid! The recognition itself speaks of the success of the squadron that gave the first-class battle!
        3. -3
          19 June 2015 00: 22
          Quote: jktu66
          It is strange to consider Tsushima a disgrace, and the Tallinn passage to Kronstadt with 46 sunken ships and 30000 fallen in 1941 crown of glory.

          Tsushima is a shame. And during the Tallinn crossing, the main losses were among the merchant fleet.
        4. Fleent
          0
          6 July 2015 21: 45
          Is it possible to clarify in more detail what this feat consisted of?
      3. -1
        19 June 2015 00: 15
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Soon :) I’ll try to post it today, the deadline is tomorrow.

        As I understand it, you are describing to us almost a victory under the leadership of the brilliant naval commander Rozhdestvensky. In general, before Tsushima, any clash at sea between a European power and third world countries was unambiguously interpreted by all theorists as an unconditional victory of that very fleet of a European country. However, Nikolai II and Rozhdestvensky were able to refute all the works of leading theorists at once. The defeat of Tsushima is primarily a defeat for the Russians than a victory for the Japanese. The author, however, begins to "mold" myths that have nothing in common with reality.
        1. +2
          19 June 2015 00: 39
          Quote: tomket
          Actually, before Tsushima, any clash on the sea of ​​a European power with third world countries was unequivocally interpreted by all theorists as an unconditional victory of the very fleet of the European country

          Name any theorist and his work where he interpreted this. And then tell us, in all chilling details, which of theorists would dream of manning the fleet of a "third country" with the best ships of the first-class naval powers.
          Quote: tomket
          The author, however, begins to "mold" myths that have nothing in common with reality.

          Since you are obviously unable to reasonably argue, all that remains for you is general words about "sculpting reality".
          1. -2
            19 June 2015 00: 53
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Since you are obviously incapable of arguing,

            Do you take an example from Rezun? which also repeats like a parrot, that no one can refute it with arguments))))
            1. +1
              19 June 2015 01: 01
              Objections to the merits of the article will be? Rozhdestvensky did not conduct artillery exercises? His commandants did not slam 25 hits in Japanese ships (19 of them in Mikasu) in the first 15 minutes of the battle? The Japanese lie, their 1st and 2nd armored units did not receive 156 Russian hits? Maybe the Japanese were not overloaded with coal at the start of the battle?
              Of course there will be no objections where you :)))
              1. -1
                19 June 2015 01: 22
                And how many Japanese ships were sunk by artillery fire during the entire Russo-Japanese War? According to the Hamburg account.
                1. +1
                  19 June 2015 01: 43
                  Is that all? :)) And why am I not surprised? :))
                  1. Fleent
                    0
                    6 July 2015 21: 59
                    Do not be surprised. You answer a specific question.
          2. Fleent
            0
            6 July 2015 21: 57
            Is it possible to clarify which fleet was manned by the "best ships of the first-class maritime powers." Maybe Japanese? Are you firmly convinced of this?
        2. Fleent
          +1
          6 July 2015 21: 53
          And even more can be said. After Tsushima, there was also NOT a single case that Asians panned Europeans. Tsushima and the Russo-Japanese War, this is a unique event.
  2. +4
    17 June 2015 06: 51
    Very informative debriefing. Now, if I could also illuminate the question of the different types of Russian ships in the wake column ...
    1. +8
      17 June 2015 08: 28
      Here's another way to illuminate the fact that the explosives in Russian shells were three times waterlogged by the quartermans, because of which they usually did not explode at all, or had a greatly weakened blasting effect.

      It was declassed under the sauce of what is needed because of the hot climate of the tropics.
      Other authors, unlike their commentators, also "forgot" to write about this.
      1. +3
        17 June 2015 14: 09
        I read ... An investigation was carried out after the war. The "initiators" were found. But since the blood was too blue, the topic was hushed up.
        1.Really "screwed up".
        2. Preparation for the bourgeois-democratic revolution of 1905 was in full swing !!!
        "Three times" is a fold. 10-20% waterlogging of pyroxylin makes it impossible to trigger the fuse. One consolation - the ships of the squadron in no case could explode from the detonation of ammunition.
        Why else is the question, why the Borodino tower jerked.
        1.Armor there was 152 mm. We look at the reservation scheme.
        2. The fundamental lack of armor-piercing in the Japanese Navy.
        3. What and how ????
        The commander of "Oleg" Kaperang Dobrotvorsky had his own version - submarines. Moreover, on 12.12.1904, FIVE "assembly kits" of Holland's submarine were delivered to the port of Sasebo.
        1. +2
          17 June 2015 19: 52
          Quote: sergius60
          Why else is the question, why the Borodino tower jerked.

          Ignition of the first shots stored in the towers. It was also observed on Orel. Or at the time of overloading charges from the cellar.
          Quote: sergius60
          in no case could explode from the detonation of the ammunition

          There is no filling of shells. And in the CHARGES gunpowder was used and it burned very well
      2. 0
        19 June 2015 00: 24
        Quote: Scraptor
        Here's another way to illuminate the fact that explosives in Russian shells were quartermasters three times as wet

        Whose problem is it? Japanese? It's like the notorious "general frost", did you go to war or did you go to play spillikins?
        1. 0
          19 June 2015 09: 31
          The general frost froze the Russians and Germans alike, but the Japanese did not wet the explosives.

          Do you think the quartermaster is not special? bully
  3. +2
    17 June 2015 07: 02
    Intriguing ... I look forward to continuing. It is possible to assume for the time being that the main reason for the Russian segment shells, although not a fact.
  4. +10
    17 June 2015 07: 48
    we again (for the umpteenth time!) read about the “poor preparation of the Russian commandos”, “the overloaded coal battleships”, the “non-initiative Russian command” and other myths of Tsushima rooted in the public consciousness... We don’t argue ... everything was fine .. We look forward to continuing .. I would like to know the opinion of the author .. so why? A chain of fatal accidents or something else is to blame for the defeat of the Russian fleet in the Tsushima battle ..
  5. 0
    17 June 2015 07: 52
    In short, the Japanese were lucky. But they were even more lucky in Port Arthur when our admiral beat the Japanese literally for a moment, giving the order to retreat back.
    1. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 22: 03
      Which admiral? Do not fantasize.
  6. 0
    17 June 2015 08: 05
    Good facts. I ask permission from the TS to use several phrases in my work ...
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 10: 02
      You are welcome:)
      1. +1
        17 June 2015 20: 02
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You are welcome:)

        Andrei, but I wonder where these 3000 shells were stored in excess of the kit on Orel?
  7. +5
    17 June 2015 08: 15
    The author was surprised, but not much. After reading the article, the thought arose - but had the squadron of Rozhdestvensky shot the trunks while studying on the campaign? This, too, could play a negative role in the battle, I hope that in future articles the author will clarify the fuses of Russian shells
    1. Lex
      0
      17 June 2015 19: 05
      Well, as far as I remember, the guns of the main caliber of battleships of the Gangut type (which were laid 5 years after Tsushima) had a barrel life of 200 shots.
      I think that 40-50 training shots per gun just fit into the norm, leaving a reserve for combat shooting at 100 pieces.
    2. +1
      17 June 2015 21: 49
      on the ships of Rozhdestvensky it is not critical, but on the ships of Nebogatov - yes ... in particular, "Admiral Ushakov" due to wear of artillery barrels by the end of the day's battle could not fire further than 20 -25 cab.
      as a result: escaping from Tsushima hell was sunk by Japanese armored cruisers who simply shot a slow-moving armadillo from a safe distance ...
      1. Fleent
        -1
        6 July 2015 22: 09
        Why are you relaying funny gossip to us? Ushakov could not shoot far because his "genius" commander Miklukho did not realize that if the ship had a roll on board, then the angle of ascent of the guns on this side would also be less in total. By the amount of this roll. But the Japanese understood it well.
        The Russians didn’t have shot guns under Tsushima. Whistling all this.
  8. 0
    17 June 2015 08: 19
    Informative
  9. +5
    17 June 2015 08: 24
    I don’t remember what year, but in the Tekhnika-Youth magazine there was an article with approximately the same calculations, written by a naval sailor ... hi
    1. +2
      17 June 2015 10: 02
      It is unfortunate that I did not come across this article. I would love to read
      1. +1
        18 June 2015 00: 48
        http://istoriirossii.ru/istoriya-rossii/168-czusimskoe-srazhenie-vinovat-li-admi



        ral-rozhestvenskij-v-razgrome-russkoj-eskadry.html
        http://macbion.narod.ru/war/tsusima/tsusima-3.htm
        http://zhurnalko.net/=nauka-i-tehnika/tehnika-molodezhi/1990-06 сканы
        http://www.forumknig.ru/bookinfo/18_37_97/1/1164/ этот фапйл есть , дежавю не стоит не могу почитать
        http://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_7/page_18/page_19/Page_32/kofman-analiz/
  10. +10
    17 June 2015 08: 27
    Article plus. Conclusions and arguments are probably not indisputable, but unlike other authors who tried to write on this topic, they are pleased with an attempt to delve into the details, rather than skip to the top or pour water from beautiful phrases. Pleasing is the desire to include imagination and present the logic of people's actions in reality. Give more thoughtful articles with a professional approach!
    1. +1
      17 June 2015 10: 05
      Thank you!
  11. +2
    17 June 2015 08: 30
    Explicitly looking forward to continuing!
  12. 0
    17 June 2015 08: 34
    I believe that the true reasons for the death of Rozhestvensky’s squadron were precisely in the incorrect tactics of the battle chosen by Rozhdestvensky, i.e. defensive, which should have been aggressive and attacking and maneuverable (new ships attack, old ones cover the most vulnerable places of attackers), i.e. the first to start the battle, including with the interception of reconnaissance ships, the battle should have begun in a loose formation (break up the squadron into units of three to four ships with leading ones from among the new ships that would begin to bite Togo's squadron front and rear and on the flank, although it would seem that the Tsushima Strait is very inconvenient for this), having each ship’s detachment and the ship separately specific goals, because having a triune formation of new and old ships with different navigational capabilities makes them useless in battle. In addition, the 15-minute delay is also unforgivable due to the indecision of Rozhestvensky himself, when Togo's squadron made his famous loop, at that very moment the alignment and fate of the battle could be completely different ...
    1. +5
      17 June 2015 17: 27
      Everything is not easy with the loop either, it is believed that Rozhdestvensky outplayed Togo here, forcing him to perform an uncomfortable maneuver and exposing almost the entire squadron to attack, it was the shells that played the decisive role, if we had everything in order, the battle ended differently .
    2. Lex
      0
      17 June 2015 19: 10
      The thing is that Rozhdestvensky perfectly understood that a meeting with the Japanese squadron was the death of our squadron, only a miracle could save the Russian sailors. Miracle - did not happen ...
    3. +1
      17 June 2015 20: 20
      Quote: Volka
      new ships attack

      I apologize, but the new ships were allocated to a separate detachment and before the battle he maneuvered separately, and went ahead in battle. How did you want the old ones to cover the attackers? )
      Quote: Volka
      unforgivable and a 15 minute delay

      Volka, did you play the simulator differently? There was such a game, quite entertaining, where under certain factors it was possible to sink the entire imperial Japanese fleet. I explain on my fingers: To evaluate the maneuver, analyze and figure out the options, we take 2 minutes, we give the command, the signalman dials the signal is another 1 minute, on a different ship they look and analyze the command, confirm and give the command to the car - another 1 minute, the car exits to max speed - another 1 min, the actual speed set by the ship is 5 minutes, for a total of 10 minutes. for the remaining 5 minutes, count yourself
      How would you like to bite Togo with old 12 knot armadillos?
    4. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 22: 16
      Great plan, Volka. only for its implementation you will need the whole beard of Hottabych. And not a few of her hairs.
      First of all, one simple question, which Russian ships were so "new" that they could attack the Togo detachment? No, I’ll even ask differently. What Russian battleship was strong enough to attack Fuji. I don’t even ask about newer Japanese battleships.
  13. +2
    17 June 2015 08: 54
    Good article. At the end of the 80s I read something similar in one of the newspapers. But literally a day later there was so much salivation on the topic in the same newspaper that the author was trying to refute the greatest historians and justify the stupid tsarist admirals. And although the author had links to various sources slipped and that the author was manipulating facts or using dubious sources. And given that at that time there was not even such a thing as the Internet, and therefore links to various sources were hard to verify.
    I look forward to continuing with impatience.
  14. +2
    17 June 2015 09: 11
    If this goes on, the author will prove that the 2nd Pacific Squadron was a model of preparation for a clash. But what to do with that indisputable historical fact about which the author speaks at the beginning - the defeat of Tsushima? Attribute to the chain of accidents irresistible force?
    Or, ultimately, everything will come to the same thing as it was before and that is the most logical and understandable - the Japanese had a more trained / experienced / motivated fleet with more modern / uniform equipment, and at the head - a more experienced / talented commander. And the rest is words.
    1. +5
      17 June 2015 10: 04
      Quote: sevtrash
      If this goes on, the author will prove that the 2nd Pacific Squadron was a model of preparation for a clash. But what to do with that indisputable historical fact about which the author speaks at the beginning - the defeat of Tsushima? Attribute to the chain of accidents irresistible force?

      Let's wait for the next articles :)))
      1. +1
        17 June 2015 10: 36
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: sevtrash
        If this goes on, the author will prove that the 2nd Pacific Squadron was a model of preparation for a clash. But what to do with that indisputable historical fact about which the author speaks at the beginning - the defeat of Tsushima? Attribute to the chain of accidents irresistible force?

        Let's wait for the next articles :)))

        Andrey, confirm or refute such a myth - before the campaign the 2nd squadron wanted to recruit experienced commandants from the Black Sea Fleet, but it did not work out. Before that, they wanted to include armadillos from the Black Sea, but Turkey, under pressure from the British, planned to close the straits in this case. Truth or fiction?
        1. 0
          17 June 2015 21: 54
          And from which ships of the Black Sea Fleet did you intend to hire experienced commandors?
        2. Fleent
          0
          6 July 2015 22: 20
          And where on the Black Sea Fleet was it to get "experienced gunners"? All gunners in the Russian Empire were approximately the same.
          Another fleet, the Black Sea, would only increase the losses of the RIF. And the trophies of the Japanese. Nothing would have changed.
    2. 0
      17 June 2015 20: 29
      Quote: sevtrash
      But what to do with that indisputable historical fact about which the author speaks at the beginning - the defeat of Tsushima? Attribute to the chain of accidents irresistible force?

      Well, probably, if the squadron, during the loss of contact (twice) with the Japanese fleet, turned back and interned, we would write about something else, but at that moment Oslyabya died, Suvorov was damaged and it was too early to talk about defeat. If Nebogatov hadn’t lost ships at night and turned to Shanghai, for example, it could have been different. If all the ships had surrendered without a fight, they wouldn’t have talked about defeat, they would have said cowardice and shame
  15. avt
    +8
    17 June 2015 09: 22
    laughing Chased by our Kaptsov dreamers laughing good A good start, well-reasoned by numbers and links. Especially when it would seem that the same facts, "SUDDENLY" begin to contradict themselves. A wonderful start to activate the brain on the topic, and not throw slogans, a la Kaptsov -Priboy.
    1. +3
      17 June 2015 10: 11
      Quote: avt
      Chased by our Kaptsov dreamers

      laughing There is a little :)) Although, of course, I will wait for an objection :)
      1. +1
        17 June 2015 21: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: avt
        Chased by our Kaptsov dreamers
        There is a little :)) Although, of course, I will wait for an objection :)

        Andrey is handsome! I look forward to continuing with impatience.
  16. +7
    17 June 2015 09: 28
    Hello Andrey! The article is intelligible, with data from various sources. Definitely a plus! But I would like to introduce my own fabrications about the reasons for the Tsushima massacre. It seems to me that the chain of events and the main thing is the decisions of the GMSH. which led the imperial fleet to this tragedy, was started from the Crimean War of 1853-1856. Russia immediately lost its entire military fleet, and not only in the Black Sea, but also in the Baltic. With the advent of steam frigates and battleships, the sailing fleet immediately sank into oblivion! Russia had to rebuild the fleet. Re-train the entire composition of the Navy. To re-create the naval doctrine, and a lot of things anew ... from metallurgical plants to paint and varnish plants. And all this should have started yesterday! But what about our bureaucracy, our natural slowness! "The system of management and organization of work in the state shipbuilding with its petty administration, Plyushkin economy, the lack of publicity of builders, deprived of engineering and economic independence, low wages compared to private enterprises and constant budget cuts did not satisfy the new requirements at all." Constant squabbles over funding between the Marine Technical Committee (MTK) and the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supply (GUKiS). Until 1895, the Naval Academy lacked such an important subject as tactics, and the navy received specialists who knew very well the technique of their ships, but did not have a deep military education. This should be seen as one of the main reasons for the differences in views on the composition of the fleet and the tactics of its use, even among prominent Russian admirals. Therefore, the future of the fleet was decided not on the basis of a systematic scientific development of naval tactics and strategy, but at special meetings, deprived of a common guiding idea and responsibility for their decisions. Equally irresponsible was the activities of the uncontrolled Chief Commander of the Fleet and the Naval Department, General-Admiral Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich. As a result, many mistaken views and misconceptions took root in the fleet, which ultimately turned into a tragedy in Tsushima.
    1. avt
      0
      17 June 2015 18: 03
      Quote: Serg65
      . With the advent of steam frigates and battleships, the sailing fleet immediately sank into oblivion! Russia had to rebuild the fleet. Re-train the entire Navy. To re-create the naval doctrine, and much more ... from the metallurgical plants to the paint and varnish plants. And all this had to start yesterday! But what about our bureaucracy, our natural slowness!
      good
      You would still have some kind of example for clarity. Well, at least the presence of rams on the battleships is real, which for unknown how many years were attached to battleships after the ONLY combat use in the Austro-Italian battle, well, when they fired shells they chased each other and even drowned some of them. The Italians even laid a battleship - a ram. And attach a photo where Makarov puts on a hemp muzzle on his battleship on a ram, in the Mediterranean Sea it seems, well, exactly after the shaved ,, Vika "was drowned with a sistership. As a clear proof that
      Quote: Serg65
      . As a result, many erroneous views and misconceptions took root in the Navy, which ultimately turned into the tragedy of Tsushima.
      1. +2
        18 June 2015 11: 43
        Quote: avt
        You would also like to give some example for clarity.

        smile The rams on the battleships of that time are a tribute to the then fashion of these ships.
        In the modern fleet, too, there is a place for fashion on Stealth ships wink . With your permission, I will give a slightly different example.
        On September 28, 1898, the battleship Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky was laid down in Nikolaev. This battleship was built according to the prototype of the battleship Three Saints, a revised project of the battleship Peresvet. It was distinguished by a harmonious combination of the main advantages of both prototypes, the use of all new technology (electric tower installations, water-tube boilers operating on oil, not coal, a forecastle with a bow tower placed on it). Thorough and more than ever, consistent, unconditionally satisfying MOTC, engineering and constructive study.
        When choosing the basic type of battleship of the new program, the Naval Ministry found itself at a crossroads: relying on Western wisdom and world experience concentrated in England, copy the project according to which the battleships of the Japanese program were built, or rework, respectively, strengthening the necessary characteristics, one of the two available domestic projects. meeting all the achievements of technology. And then a miracle happens! The head of the shipbuilding company William Crump and Sons, Charles Crump, appears in St. Petersburg. He is provided with projects of the battleships "Peresvet" and "Prince Potemkin", a contract is immediately concluded (without agreement with the ITC) for the construction of the battleship "Retvizan" and the cruiser "Varyag". Thanks to the Retvizan, the Americans acquired the 1st class battleship Maine. Another miracle was the order for the construction of the battleship "Tsarevich" issued to Amaml Lagan, the head of the French shipbuilding company "Forge e Chanier". I think this example provides tremendous opportunities for thought, reasoning and fantasy. bully
        1. Fleent
          0
          6 July 2015 22: 38
          Are you serious? About the Bronetemkin the Bearer? Why did you like this rubbish so much?
          Retvizan and Varyag, this is strength. The best in its class that was in the RIF. True, the hands-on specialists managed to "work" on the Varyag. But even they could not completely destroy it. Destroyed his head-ass. Which sent him into Chemulpo's trap.
          About Relight, nonsense. Retvisan in Peresvet had nothing in common. Just completely different things.
          But with Cesarevich, yes there. With him and Bayan. There is something to think about. None of the ships of their class matched.
    2. 0
      17 June 2015 20: 49
      Quote: Serg65
      Re-train the entire Navy

      Quote: Serg65
      Russia immediately lost its entire navy

      You probably didn’t notice that at that time there were steam frigates in the Black Sea Fleet. How many ships you didn’t build and the coalition will still have more. At that time there were MANY ships, for comparison:
      From 1871 to 1905, a total of 12 battleships were built on the Black Sea
      1. +2
        18 June 2015 12: 12
        Quote: Pilat2009
        You probably didn’t notice that at that time there were steam frigates in the Black Sea Fleet

        Michael, how can you miss it? By 1855, the Baltic Fleet had 9 propeller-driven steam-frigates, and the Black Sea 7 (all foreign-built), and more than one steam battleship. At the same time, England had 21 steam battleships, and France 20 !!! In 1953, the Black Sea Fleet consisted of 15 sailing battleships, 7 sailing frigates, 7 screw steam frigates and 4 wheeled steam frigates. Do you think that 11 steam-frigates did the weather at the Black Sea theater? From the history of the Crimean War .... The first echelon of 54 sailing French ships with troops left Varna on September 5 and hung out at sea for three days without any convoy, waiting for the rest. The entire fleet followed, joining in the sea on September 8 at the Serpent Island. All this badly organized armada overcrowded with troops consisted of up to 350 ships. ... Initially, it was decided to land a landing at the mouth of the Kacha River, somewhat north of Sevastopol. But at sea, fears arose among the French command. The idea arose that it would be more convenient to land not at Kacha, but in another place - in Feodosia or west of Kerch. A council was assembled, a commission for a new reconnaissance was elected, which was sent on September 10. In anticipation of its results, the fleet was anchored on the high seas, in danger of being dispersed by the first storm and risking, with an adventurous enemy, being attacked. On September 14, the Allies moved on. On the same day, their numerous squadron was spotted from the shore, heading for Cape Tarkankhut. Nakhimov decided to go out and fight. He ordered to get ready to drop anchor, but the wind did not favor the exit of the Russian fleet. This is how the historian (Likhachev) describes this moment. "Admiral Nakhimov raised the signal" to prepare for the march. "The wind, fresh with gusts in the bay, changed from N to NO, and in the sea apparently blew NW. In both cases it was disgusting to follow to Evpatoria. In the evening the wind died down, and the calm continued all night September 2/15 all day was calm, in the evening the weather was frowning, and at 10 o'clock the west wind blew in. By midnight it was fresh and blew with gusts and rain until 4 o'clock in the morning. Then it became calm again, and the calm, interrupted by quiet sea winds, lasted until September 8/21. "
        1. 0
          18 June 2015 18: 44
          Quote: Serg65
          At the same time, England had 21 steam battleship, and France 20 !!!

          those you suggest to rivet on the 40 World Cup battleships?
          1. +2
            19 June 2015 06: 07
            Quote: Pilat2009
            those you suggest to rivet on the 40 World Cup battleships?

            Michael, read carefully! We are talking about the Baltic and Black Sea fleets in the compartment !!
            1. 0
              19 June 2015 18: 28
              Quote: Serg65
              Quote: Pilat2009
              those you suggest to rivet on the 40 World Cup battleships?

              Michael, read carefully! We are talking about the Baltic and Black Sea fleets in the compartment !!

              Well, well then, tell me, why did the Japanese have six armadillos and six br-cruisers, and not ten for example?
              And because finances did not allow at the same time to maintain an army and navy ... They and in World War I had much less battleships than Germany or England.
              The same England had fewer troops than the continental powers, I mean purebred British troops, and not all sepoys. Hold ten steam battleships on the Black Sea .... Well, thirty will come to visit ....
      2. +2
        18 June 2015 12: 34
        Quote: Pilat2009
        From 1871 to 1905, a total of 12 battleships were built on the Black Sea

        smile "Nolvgorod" and "Vice-Admiral Popov" are essentially floating batteries than battleships. The first truly battleship "Catherine II" entered service in 1889, and the last of the Black Sea battleships "John Chrysostom" already in 1911. A total of 22 battleships in 10 years.
  17. +1
    17 June 2015 09: 34
    I recommend a very interesting analysis by V. Koffman at the link below:

    "Tsushima: Analysis Against Myths"

    http://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_7/page_18/page_19/Page_32/kofman-analiz/
    1. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 22: 44
      This is not an analysis. This is a balance sheet. Accounting in the military, the thing is not very appropriate.
  18. ABM
    ABM
    -2
    17 June 2015 10: 12
    about the number of hits here you need to write an entire article ... when I studied this topic - approximate estimates of different researchers give 3-3,5% of our ships hit the Japanese, which is not bad, but certainly not a fountain. It is doubtful to compare the number of hits with the 6st Squadron, in those battles on our side 12 ships participated in the line, here there are more widows, XNUMX ...

    about coal, the problem is not in overloading as such, but in the fact that coal was consumed from the lower bins located closer to the boilers, forgetting to unload from above, which affected stability ...

    Rozhdestvensky is definitely not a genius - he simply led the squadron to the slaughter, exactly to Vladivostok, without maneuvering, slightly evading the enemy’s head of the column

    something like that
    1. Lex
      0
      17 June 2015 19: 18
      Did he have a choice? Everything was decided by the lack of repair, which the squadron simply was not allowed to carry out before the final spurt.
      The article was liked precisely by the selection of materials, I hope Andrei will just reveal the topic of the world around the world without normal repair in the next part.
  19. -1
    17 June 2015 10: 15
    All these variants of "myths" and "refutation of myths"
    do not change the completely unambiguous result of this battle.
    1. avt
      +3
      17 June 2015 10: 56
      Quote: voyaka uh
      All these variants of "myths" and "refutation of myths"
      do not change the completely unambiguous result of this battle.

      Campaign through life, the difference between the analysis of EVENTS and the creation of myths per se a computer game - a strategy, do not distinguish.
      Quote: Silhouette
      Kolchak. I attributed it to this, because I believe that politics could not have any influence on maritime education, on military organization - we simply did not pay so much attention to live training in the Navy that it was the main reason for our defeat.
      I saw here in the East how we conducted combat training, what the command did, what the commanders did. Of course, the overall system was unsatisfactory.

      request "Generals / admirals are preparing for the last war" - no one canceled this. Yes, with that technical leap from sailing ships to the steam fleet, naturally a human factor arose and could not but arise in part ... well, some ... inert thinking in terms of new methods of training personnel of all categories from the very top in the use of new technology.In fact, it was always and everywhere and who stayed too long and did not master the new technical capabilities and tactics arising from them, he lost.
      Quote: Silhouette
      I think I'm right because when, after the Japanese war, groups of officers took up their job honestly, when they first of all looked at what they needed to look at, that is, at creating a body that would prepare for war ,

      Always following the results of hostilities, changes are carried out right up to a radical revision of the whole doctrine of warfare.
    2. 0
      17 June 2015 21: 01
      Quote: voyaka uh
      do not change the completely unambiguous result of this battle.

      You are undoubtedly right about this. And nobody argues with that.
      Each country had white and black stripes in history and each had objective and subjective reasons:
      The options are:
      all the ships remaining after a day’s battle are assembled and go to Shanghai or the other neutral port, where they are interned. The result of the battle is 4 sunken ships. Is this a defeat? (unaccounted factor night)
      Or, the next day, the Russians stoke all the remaining ships, board the boats and wait for the Japanese to save them, is this a defeat?
      Eli-Russians surrender all remaining ships without a fight
      Or Nebogatov heroically dies with the remaining ships
  20. +2
    17 June 2015 10: 18
    Andrey, thanks for the article. You may not agree with your conclusions, but the fact that you cite them and support them with facts is a huge plus. I look forward to continuing.
  21. +5
    17 June 2015 10: 41
    A good article, I did, although I fundamentally disagree with the author. I agree with Kolchak, who saw the situation from the inside, as, incidentally, I did while serving in the Navy. I bring to your attention extracts from the protocols of interrogations of Admiral Kolchak by Chudnovsky and Alekseevsky:

    "... I saw the main reason in the organization of military affairs in our Navy, in the absence of special bodies that would be engaged in preparing the Navy for war, lack of education. The Navy did not mind its own business, - this is the main reason ...

    .... I considered it my duty and duty to work to correct what led us to such shameful consequences ....

    Alekseevsky. So, you thought that the technical and professional setting of naval affairs was the reason for our defeat, that the setting itself was erroneous, that is, you considered it to be a bona fide mistake, and you believed that it did not come from the political system, but from error conditions?

    Kolchak. I attributed it to this, because I believe that politics could not have any influence on maritime education, on military organization - we simply did not pay so much attention to live training in the Navy that it was the main reason for our defeat.
    I saw here in the East how we conducted combat training, what the command did, what the commanders did. Of course, the overall system was unsatisfactory.

    Chudnovsky. When you say that the command itself is to blame, you get the impression that the command was given a specific task that they did not fulfill. This is incomprehensible to me, because if the high command gives certain combat tasks, and these tasks are not performed, then it takes measures.

    Kolchak. I will tell you this, that the reasons lay, as they seemed to me, in a different way. Take the production of live firing, as they were then set. No scientific basis for this has been developed. Shooting was carried out only for serving numbers. The instructions given above required us to carry out combat training, but the performers themselves, due to their ignorance and their unpreparedness, could not fulfill. Nothing came of this — our Fleet was not able to shoot. But, I repeat, of course, they demanded from above that the Fleet shoot, there can be no doubt about this, because other demands could not come from above. The fulfillment of these requirements was worthless thanks to our ignorance. After all, programs, tasks, instructions were compiled extremely reasonably and logically, and reasonably, but their implementation was terrible due to general ignorance, lack of knowledge among our leaders, lack of trained people to lead the Fleet, because by that time the Fleet was already such a complex combat vehicle that he demanded other people, more educated and trained. I recall that period and the period of the last war, because there was nothing similar.
    I think that I am right, because when, after the Japanese war, groups of officers took up their business honestly, when they first of all looked at what they needed to look at, that is, at the creation of a body that would be engaged in preparing for war - when this small circle had a rise in knowledge and a certain conscientious attitude towards their duties, which appeared as a well-known result of events, then we created the Fleet, regardless of what the political system was. So I repeat - the armed force can be created under any system, if the methods of work and the attitude of employees to their work are decent. On the contrary, under any system, if there is no such attitude, you will not create an armed force. "
    1. +1
      17 June 2015 11: 57
      Regarding the interrogation of Kolchak. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Where does infa come from, from which archive, case, sheet, etc.? And then on the questions asked, and the answers, it seems that they are talking to two general staff officers, or two people of equal competency to the issues under consideration. Something a fairy tale somehow .....
      1. 0
        17 June 2015 16: 08
        If you are too lazy to type "Kolchak's interrogation protocols" in a search engine, then you can:

        Starikov N.V. - Admiral Kolchak. Interrogation Records ...
        seedoff.net ›torrent ... nv ... kolchak-protokoly-doprosa
      2. 0
        17 June 2015 23: 07
        Quote: AZB15
        two people of equal competency in the issues at hand.

        Two battalors and admiral analyze the causes of the defeat
        Kolchak says that the "upper classes" wanted the fleet to be engaged in exercises, but the "lower classes" did not know how ...
        On the other hand, one cannot but admit that certain conclusions were made
  22. -6
    17 June 2015 11: 10
    I didn't understand this article. What did the author want to say? Trying to refute the "myths" he actually only confirmed them. In terms of technology, 2TOE was stronger than the Japanese fleet. She had more battleships. But without proper content and support, all this turned out to be useless. And the fault lies with the country's top military-political leadership. Which at first was very eager for this war, and then suddenly somehow withdrew from it, locking up the rank and file sailors with stupid orders and at the same time hypocritically giving them the "right" to organize and fight themselves. That is, the whole function of the senior officers of that tsarist fleet consisted in the fact that with stupid orders and prohibitions to completely kill even the initial inclinations of Russian sailors to active and effective actions.
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 11: 18
      Quote: Banson
      I didn't understand this article. What did the author want to say? Trying to refute the "myths" he actually only confirmed them. In terms of technology, 2TOE was stronger than the Japanese fleet. She had more battleships. But without proper content and support, all this turned out to be useless. And the fault lies with the country's top military-political leadership. Which at first was very eager for this war, and then suddenly somehow withdrew from it, locking up the rank and file sailors with stupid orders and at the same time hypocritically giving them the "right" to organize and fight themselves. That is, the whole function of the senior officers of that tsarist fleet consisted in the fact that with stupid orders and prohibitions to completely kill even the initial inclinations of Russian sailors to active and effective actions.

      I hope in the next article the author will reveal the reasons for what happened in the Tsushima battle. Does it all come down to the quality of the shells? Although even Novikov-Pribo gives at the end of the book data on the losses of the Japanese fleet as an argument that our sailors fought bravely and selflessly. And in general, the Japanese fleet also suffered losses, and quite tangible in particular in manpower. Although the bulk of the armored fleet remained combat-ready.
      1. 0
        17 June 2015 11: 26
        But was it written about this here? bully
      2. -3
        17 June 2015 11: 38
        Quote: THE_SEAL
        Does it all come down to the quality of the shells?

        This is nothing more than a myth. The shells we had then were quite adequate. And the reasons are precisely in the high command, or rather, the absence of command as such, the absence of any kind of battle plan, even an elementary one, orders of the command purposefully aimed at the fact that 2TOE was defeated, overloading of ships, complete incapacity of junior flagships (one had already died by the time of the battle), etc. etc. And "thanks" for all this can be said: A - to Nikolai Romanov and B - Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky. Nebogatov, of course, can be condemned for cowardice and betrayal, but on the other hand - find yourself there yourself and try to do something on the general disbelief and defeatist psychology.
        1. +2
          17 June 2015 11: 52
          Adequate shells are those that do not explode 7 once in a row drilling holes in Japanese armor?
          You are spreading lies here Mr. / Comrade. Ben & Sohn, outweighing the responsibility for Tsushima from those who arranged it all, to the Russian Tsar.
          1. -3
            17 June 2015 12: 13
            Quote: Scraptor
            Adequate shells are those that do not explode 7 once in a row drilling holes in Japanese armor?

            So what? Punching armor they still cause damage and not small. I will surprise and shock you - in modern tank BOPSs (for those who are not in the subject of BOPS - armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber projectile) of explosive charge not at all. That is, in essence, this is flying scrap. Arrow. And nevertheless - with their task - the destruction of armored vehicles, they cope perfectly. A tank after falling into such a BOPS (which is an explosive), turns into a burning pile of scrap metal. So yes - such shells are quite adequate to the Japanese, which often burst in the barrels of their own guns, and because of the instant fuse (slowing down less than 0,001s) when they hit our ship they simply could not inflict any serious damage on it (they could not penetrate deep inside - even breaking through the armor, exploded either directly in the armor, or immediately after it). This partly explains the gigantic number of hits that our new generation of battleships withstood.
            Quote: Scraptor
            You are spreading lies here Mr. / Comrade. Ben & Sohn,

            On the contrary. I am telling the truth.
            Quote: Scraptor
            Outweighing the responsibility for Tsushima from those who arranged it all, to the Russian Tsar.

            Well, of course - how could the king-father be to blame for something? This is God's anointed. He has nothing to do with it. First unleashed a war with Japan. Which is mediocre. Then he sent the entire BF to the heap - actually for slaughter. But he still has nothing to do with it. Well this is not him. At that time he was walking quietly to himself quietly in the royal village. I hummed funny songs. Killed cats and raven i.e. He was quite engaged in peaceful livestock breeding and did not touch anyone. And here - on those.
            1. -2
              17 June 2015 12: 18
              Quote: Banson
              Ну и что?

              A nitsche! You don’t have a truth but a lie, shabbes- (well, how would it be more decent?) A troll ... bully
              1. -1
                17 June 2015 12: 32
                Nothing to say a clown? When there is nothing to say, we begin to grimace and insult.
                1. +2
                  17 June 2015 12: 35
                  you don’t speak here, but write, I’m not talking ... No need to be healthy.
            2. +1
              17 June 2015 15: 52
              Killed cats and raven i.e. He was quite engaged in peaceful livestock breeding and did not touch anyone.
              Bandera strangled cats in childhood, and the Russian tsar, the cat-coder, also "tempered" their will - so they slipped into equating Hitler and Stalin. CONGRATULATIONS !!!! But what happened in reality: the imperial decree was FORBIDDEN the export of OIL and round timber in an UNPROCESSED form, which entailed multimillion-dollar receipts to the treasury and additional growth in industry. And Russia in 1913 produced oil 10 times more than England. We would have such a "cat coder" now
            3. +2
              17 June 2015 21: 15
              Quote: Banson
              The tank after falling into it such a BOPS (which is an explosive nya) - turns into a burning pile of scrap metal

              You don’t take much into account - firing range, tank dimensions for example
              And BOPs was made using a different technology, different from the 1900s.
              That is, if such a bops gets into the armadillo’s tower, for example, then of course the tower crashes, or the gun in the casemate, for example, but the armadillo has not one casemate and not one tower. And if it gets into the capter or dining room, for example, then the effect is zero. For example -see the hit of armor-piercing shells in the ships of the First World War
            4. +8
              17 June 2015 22: 24
              Quote: Banson
              So what? Punching armor they still cause damage and not small. I will surprise you and shock you - in modern tank BOPSs (for those who are not in the BOPS topic - armor-piercing feathered subcaliber shell) there is no explosive charge at all.

              Well, firstly, that in many sub-caliber shells there is no explosive charge, many are aware. And secondly, penetration of armor in a tank and on an armadillo is somewhat different penetration, including the consequences. If only because the probability of a shell getting into the tank’s ammunition is much higher than in a ship. I'm not talking about the pyrophoric effect of fragments flying inside: gasoline vapors in a tank (and they always will be there) are a much more explosive thing than coal in an armadillo. And the last: the death of two tankers (which is very likely given the tightness and dimensions of the tank) is the loss of 40-50% of the crew. What should be a shell WITHOUT A CHARGE OF EXPLOSIVES to cause such losses among the personnel of an armadillo? And what then remains of the ship?
            5. +1
              18 June 2015 01: 03
              A tank after falling into such a BOPS (which is an explosive), turns into a burning pile of scrap metal.


              Firstly, the tank is arranged much denser than a ship, even one such as an EDB or a battleship.
              Secondly, the tank lot denser armor (per unit volume) than a ship, even one such as an EDB or battleship.
              Consequently, a flying crowbar provides a much better opportunity to give the tank its kinetic energy, which, according to the law discovered by Mikhail Vasilich, merrily turns into heat.
              Therefore, two - the probability of damaging with a crowbar some important unit of a tank is much simpler than a ship's blank - an important unit of an EDB or battleship. Given that there is only one engine per tank, one gun, one guidance system again, etc., the tank immediately loses most of its combat capability.
              Thirdly, pyrophoric additives are sometimes added to the cores of BOPS.
              Fourth, there is a very interesting theory about the explosion of a part of the metal crystal lattice of depleted uranium at the moment of collision due to the emission of electrons from it: http://www.nkj.ru/archive/articles/4072/
              Fifthly, the majority of modern tanks are two-volume, rarely - three-volume, but you can’t go to the engine compartment if you catch fire in the crew compartment - there is no place for people there.
              Therefore, three - in case of fire in the crew compartment you have to leave the tank, and it burns out.
              1. 0
                18 June 2015 12: 23
                do not explain anything to this shabes-troll ... he is a "specialist" in cats bully
          2. +1
            17 June 2015 15: 03
            Quote: Scraptor
            Adequate shells are those that do not explode 7 once in a row drilling holes in Japanese armor?
            You are spreading lies here Mr. / Comrade. Ben & Sohn, outweighing the responsibility for Tsushima from those who arranged it all, to the Russian Tsar.

            If my memory serves me right, then Japanese armadillos were built in England. The armor is accordingly aglitsky.
        2. +3
          17 June 2015 12: 15
          Quote: Banson
          This is nothing more than a myth. The shells we had then were quite adequate.

          Experimental shooting from the cruiser "Russia" at old ship's boilers, bed nets and a tank car showed that 152-mm high-explosive shells with bottom two-capsule Brink tubes and equipped with 920 g of wet and 45 g of dry pyroxylin pierced through light obstacles and exploded only when hitting the ground (in this case - 30 meters behind the target, that is, at a distance exceeding the width of the ship). This was explained by the fact that the Brink tubes were designed for armor-piercing shells, and therefore gave too long a break delay. The depth of the craters in the soft clay soil did not exceed 40-50 cm. The number of fragments was too small, and they themselves were large. Japanese shells of a similar caliber had Iujin sensitive tubes and carried 8,83 times more explosive. Comments, as they say, are unnecessary.

          At the same time, shells equipped with smokeless gunpowder and Baranovsky tubes were tested. The result was completely different - the explosions occurred 0,5-1 m from the first contact with the obstacle, the old boiler used for the experiments was distorted by the first hit.

          Under pressure from the infantry general N.P. Linevich, Commander-in-Chief of the land and naval forces operating against Japan, Vice-Admiral F.V.Dubasov, chairman of the Marine Technical Committee, by telegram of July 9, 1905 authorized the re-loading of the cruisers' ammunition from pyroxylin to smokeless powder and transition to the Baranovsky pipe.
          (c) A.Yu. Emelin. Improving the combat effectiveness of the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers in 1904-1905
          http://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_7/page_18/page_19/Page_31/page_31_001/
          1. 0
            17 June 2015 12: 20
            Well, that is simply simply - USUAL TAMPERING!

            as well as with waterlogging of explosives in shells.
            1. +1
              17 June 2015 12: 53
              Quote: Scraptor
              Well, that is simply simply - USUAL TAMPERING!

              Hyper economy. On everything.
              As a result, many things became clear not during the tests, but already during the war (or even after it). Too tight fuses, problems with the lifting mechanisms of the guns during prolonged firing at long distances (plus insufficient strength of the gun mountings under such loads), inconsistency of the firing tables (Melnikov had it in Potemkin), the need to arm the extremities from land mines, etc.
              1. -1
                17 June 2015 13: 05
                Save water chtoli?
                1. 0
                  17 June 2015 13: 19
                  Quote: Scraptor
                  Save water chtoli?

                  Shells and trunks.

                  The fleet sits on starvation rations, the crews and ships shuffle along armed reserves, and you, gracious sovereign, offer to use hundreds of expensive shells for your imagination. And for what? Everything is calculated and confirmed by people much older and smarter than you. So go, honey, and don’t waste my time in vain.
          2. 0
            17 June 2015 17: 25
            Bravo! Finally, essentially. The shell issue is the basis of defeat.
    2. +2
      17 June 2015 14: 04
      Quote: Banson
      And the fault lies with the country's top military-political leadership. Which at first was very eager for this war, and then suddenly somehow withdrew from it, locking up the rank and file sailors with stupid orders and at the same time hypocritically giving them the "right" to organize and fight themselves.

      Is it like that ?? Did the sailor sailors lead the ships themselves? They themselves decided who to shoot, and who not?
      Quote: Banson
      That is, the whole function of the senior officers of that tsarist fleet was to use stupid orders and prohibitions to completely kill even the initial creeps of Russian sailors to active and effective actions.

      On the night of June 25, 1941, the leaders of Moscow and Kharkov left Sevastopol with a support group as part of the LKR "Voroshilov", em. "Smyshlyony" and "Smart" with the task of shelling the port of Constanta. As a result of the "brilliant" operation "Moscow" was lost, "Kharkov" was seriously damaged. In this case, who "killed" the initial inclinations of the Soviet sailors?
      1. 0
        17 June 2015 16: 26
        On the night of June 25, 1941, the leaders of Moscow and Kharkov left Sevastopol with a support group as part of the LKR "Voroshilov", em. "Smyshlyony" and "Smart" with the task of shelling the port of Constanta.
        My grandfather served in Voroshilov, he "extinguished" Constants. And the "merit" for unjustified losses and for the surrender of Sevastopol hugs Comrade. Ivanov, excuse me, to Oktyabrsky. Tributs also has "merits" above the roof.
        1. +2
          18 June 2015 12: 48
          Quote: jktu66
          Tributs also has "merits" above the roof.

          Hush, hush, Oleg! Well you are the right word! These are the Soviet admirals and it is "taboo" to touch them.
          Quote: Banson
          In this case, our sailors just showed activity worthy of better use.

          You see what kind of story it is laughing Rozhdestvensky-tyrant, satrap and idiot, and Ivanov-Oktyabrsky advanced Soviet admiral!
      2. 0
        17 June 2015 16: 32
        Quote: Serg65
        On the night of June 25, 1941, the leaders of Moscow and Kharkov left Sevastopol with a support group as part of the LKR "Voroshilov", em. "Smyshlyony" and "Smart" with the task of shelling the port of Constanta. As a result of the "brilliant" operation "Moscow" was lost, "Kharkov" was seriously damaged. In this case, who "killed" the initial inclinations of the Soviet sailors?

        Maybe the command of the Black Sea Fleet, which started the reorganization of the groups right during the exit from Sevastopol? The unfortunate "Moscow" was included in the strike group at the moment when this group had practically left the base. Briefing and familiarization with combat documents took place practically "on the run".
        2. The change in the composition of the strike group and the support group at the last moment, after shooting from the anchor, undoubtedly affected the preparation and conduct of the raid operation. The exit delay forced the ships of the strike group to force the course in the absence of a reserve of time, which could lead to a loss of surprise approach in the event of a forced decrease in the number of moves.
        3. The enemy considered the probability of an attack on Constanta, for which measures were taken accordingly: deploying submarines on the likely routes of our ships, alerting the destroyers (they left the base a few minutes after the shelling started), maintaining coastal batteries in readiness, etc. . d.
        1. +2
          18 June 2015 13: 13
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The unfortunate "Moscow" was included in the strike group at the moment when this group had practically left the base. Briefing and familiarization with combat documents took place practically "on the run".

          Aleksey, the "Moscow" had 130 mm B-13 guns. with a firing range of 137 cables. On "Voroshilov" 180 mm. B-1-P with a firing range of 200 cables !!!!! The question is, who should have fired at Constanta?
          1. 0
            18 June 2015 18: 40
            Quote: Serg65
            Aleksey, the "Moscow" had 130 mm B-13 guns. with a firing range of 137 cables. On "Voroshilov" 180 mm. B-1-P with a firing range of 200 cables !!!!! The question is, who should have fired at Constanta?

            The answer is unequivocal - less valuable ships. That is - LD and EM.

            For the command of the Black Sea Fleet did not know 100% the real borders of the Romanian MH at Constanta. But I knew about their availability from the official Romanian statement (where, of course, it was noted swimming hazardous area - but who will believe the official report). Actually, shelling Constanta was only one of the objectives of the operation. Another goal (according to Kuznetsov’s order) was to reconnaissance of the naval defense system (which includes the Ministry of Health).

            Moreover, the Navy already had the sad experience of the SPV, when the Kirov missile carrier, in exactly the same operation to fire on Russare, almost flew to the Finnish Ministry of Health. He was rescued then by the Finnish artillerymen, who opened fire on the CD too early and forced him to turn away.

            PS Tsushima opened a branch on Topwar? laughing
            1. +2
              19 June 2015 06: 49
              Quote: Alexey RA
              The answer is unequivocal - less valuable ships. That is - LD and EM.

              For the Black Sea Fleet command did not know on 100% of the real borders of the Romanian MH at Constanta.

              what Hmm! An interesting interpretation of events. Those. for reconnaissance of approaches to the enemy’s naval base, it is entirely possible to sacrifice a leader or destroyer ?! But is it not interesting to make the same reconnaissance by the forces of one of the submarines?
              Speaking at the military scientific conference “Combat Operations of the Black Sea Fleet Squadron and Submarines in the Great Patriotic War” in 1969, Rear Admiral I. M. Nesterov, who commanded the D-6 submarine before the war, said that “Black Sea Fleet submarines being at the position of Constanta, they accurately recorded the placement of minefields even before the outbreak of war by the Admiral Murgescu mine-loader.
              Retired Colonel Vasily Stikhin in the article “Four months before the war” tells how he, then a lieutenant, and senior lieutenant S. Zaitsev, who was serving in the Black Sea Fleet reconnaissance unit in mid-February 1941, had to find out the location of the German heavy-caliber heavy-duty battery and air defense batteries in the region of Constanta. Scouts coped with the task, having discovered the Romanian coastal battery, several points of the German quad anti-aircraft mounts and the German 280-mm battery.
              The military campaign, 1966, specifically states that "Rear Admiral Novikov, the commander of the strike group of ships, did not receive data on coastal batteries in the Constanta region, since the headquarters of the fleet did not have them either." What is it - the lack of coordination between the operations and intelligence departments of the headquarters of the fleets or a lack of confidence in intelligence? 36 years have passed since the Russo-Japanese War, the political system has changed, former sailors have become admirals, and practically nothing has changed in naval art.
      3. 0
        17 June 2015 17: 16
        Quote: Serg65
        Is it like that ?? Did the sailor sailors lead the ships themselves?

        Yeah. Something like that.
        Quote: Serg65
        They themselves decided who to shoot, and who not?

        Just that they were banned.
        Quote: Serg65
        On the night of June 25, 1941, the leaders of Moscow and Kharkov left Sevastopol with a support group as part of the LKR "Voroshilov", em. "Smyshlyony" and "Smart" with the task of shelling the port of Constanta. As a result of the "brilliant" operation "Moscow" was lost, "Kharkov" was seriously damaged. In this case, who "killed" the initial inclinations of the Soviet sailors?

        No one. In this case, our sailors just showed activity worthy of better use.
      4. 0
        17 June 2015 17: 44
        Moscow died, and Kharkov was damaged, AFTER the combat mission. Moscow was blown up by a mine and sank, and Kharkov was damaged by the undercarriage, and then systematically sought out aviation, as it seems.
    3. +1
      17 June 2015 15: 38
      According to the 2TOE technique, it was stronger than the Japanese fleet
      Not true!
    4. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 22: 55
      I want to upset you, but there were no battleships (squadron battleships) in 2 TOEs. There were ships that were called that. But there were no battleships.
      And in 1 TOE, there were EDBs. Real, 4 pieces. And it was the squadron battleships that did not allow the Japanese to perpetrate in the Yellow Sea what they perpetrated under Tsushima. Yes, 1 TOE in fear of the enemy fled. But not a single ship was sunk. The Japanese could not heat the EDB. They didn’t know how. Even the EDB class 2.
  23. +4
    17 June 2015 11: 20
    It is always worth remembering the simple truth "Victory has many fathers, but defeat is always an orphan."

    In fact, these disputes will probably never subside. in addition to objective factors, there is always a factor of "accident inevitable at sea" - and its assessment is practically impossible.
    The Russo-Japanese War is especially unique in this regard. Almost all the "probabilities" that could have formed were not in favor of the RIF. Against this background, all objective factors could not at least somehow change the result.
    1. +2
      17 June 2015 12: 19
      Quote: Taoist
      Almost all the "probabilities" that could have formed were not in favor of the RIF.

      Well ... RIF was also lucky - remember "Hatsuse" and "Yashima".
      1. +2
        17 June 2015 14: 35
        Well, that's why I wrote that "almost everything" ... Again, the explosion on mines of two battleships systematically went along the same route is difficult to fully attribute to "accidents" - it is rather a pattern of naval war ... But the shell in the Tsesarevich's felling when Togo had already commanded a retreat or a fire in the cellars flooded with water from a ruptured pipeline from the same shell ... This is definitely a "confluence of probabilities" ... You can even count how many chances out of a million there were exactly on such a trajectory ...
        1. +1
          17 June 2015 16: 41
          Quote: Taoist
          Again, the explosion on mines of two battleships systematically went along the same route is difficult to fully attribute to "accidents" - it is rather a pattern of naval war ...

          Well ... suddenly a bright thought would come to Togo's mind that the patterned maneuvering of the EBR is a direct path to a minefield. Moreover, he himself caught Makarov on this: the Japanese put a mine can on the loop of the standard "eight", time after time described by the Russians by the EBR near Port Arthur. "Cupid" actually mirrored the Japanese actions.
          Quote: Taoist
          But the shell in the wheelhouse of the Tsarevich when Togo had already commanded a retreat or a fire in the cellars flooded with water from a ruptured pipeline from the same shell ... This is definitely a "confluence of probabilities" ... You can even count how many chances out of a million there were exactly on this trajectory. ..

          You can also recall the splinter that fell in the stomach of Shchensnovich when he led the "Retvizan" to the breakthrough.
          1. 0
            19 June 2015 14: 47
            As if Shchensnovich led his Retvisan to the ram of Mikasa, in order to cover the flagship that had rolled out of order. hi
            1. Fleent
              0
              6 July 2015 23: 06
              Yeah. On a catamaran. And also a breakthrough. To undermine. Cover up. Close.
              Actually, Schensovich left the squadron and rushed to Shanghai. To intern Nothing prevented him from going to Vladivostok, but he did not want to.
        2. +3
          17 June 2015 22: 32
          Quote: Taoist
          You can even count how many chances out of a million were exactly on such a trajectory ...

          Alexey, I have met such a turn of events only once in R. Sheckley's science fiction novel "Body Exchange". But science fiction writers can do anything, but in life ... That's really really - a villainous fate ...
        3. Fleent
          0
          6 July 2015 23: 01
          And who told you that Togo commanded a retreat? From whom to retreat? From a weak adversary who himself does not know where to retreat? No, this is gossip.
          They didn’t just go along the route. They walked along the international transport corridor. Landing mines there was the height of recklessness. But Witgeft did it. There was a desperate man. And he could get burned, it would not have seemed. I went and won. Here is a true hero and naval commander. And not different funny clowns from the department of agitation and propaganda.
    2. 0
      17 June 2015 21: 19
      You're right. From the 7th grade, when I read "Tsushima" by Novikov-Priboi, I wonder why this happened. Since then I have read a lot of literature, with a different approach to the topic, with different explanations of the causes of the disaster, but the reasons for the tragedy are still not clear. Who brings the overload, the incompetence of the command, the unpreparedness of the performers, the ill-conceived design of the ships, the intrigues of the Freemasons who specially loaded onto the squadron unusable ammunition, super training of samurai, etc. etc. Andrei from Chelyabinsk, on the contrary, claims in his article that there was no super-overload, the teams and commanders were better prepared than the Japanese Jidai, having almost shot all the training ammunition along a distant road, and, moreover, having used up part of the main one during the Gull incident. ammunition, then, probably, it will also be about shells, the great luck of the Japanese admiral and the sacred bad luck of Rozhdestvensky, who, quite simply, was beguiled by the devil, perhaps the desynchronization of the main part of the team due to the difference in time zones with a sharp drop in the level of combat capability, high humidity in powder magazines during the whole "Walking for ..." I don't know how many seas. Something happened that SHOULD NOT HAPPEN EVER. I have the feeling, no matter how seditious it may seem to you, that that war was MAGIC, a limit was laid in it for Russia's further advancement. Now you can laugh and minus!)))
      1. 0
        17 June 2015 23: 08
        Pondering the results of this war even more deeply, I come to a conclusion, paradoxical, at first glance, we had to lose this war. Imagine, we won, made part of China and Korea our colonies ... What would happen now with Moscow and other, still Russian cities now? Everyone is groaning now under the "yoke of Caucasians" ... Would we like the Chinese more ???)))
        1. 0
          18 June 2015 01: 00
          Christmas trees sticks that you are steaming !! :(
  24. 0
    17 June 2015 11: 25
    Thanks to the author for the article. Very interesting is the opinion about what caused the death of the squadron.
  25. +1
    17 June 2015 11: 32
    Here is a great review! Everything is laid out on shelves, with facts and links to documents.
    We are waiting for the main intrigue, shells.
  26. +1
    17 June 2015 11: 34
    Interesting, of course. I will wait for the continuation. I would very much like to hear the author’s version of the battle itself and his vision on the reasons for the final defeat in the battle.
    For me, the Russo-Japanese War is generally a dark forest.
  27. 0
    17 June 2015 11: 39
    In the sequel will be the analysis of the shells?
  28. 0
    17 June 2015 11: 44
    Quote: Banson
    Quote: THE_SEAL
    Does it all come down to the quality of the shells?

    This is nothing more than a myth. The shells we had then were quite adequate. And the reasons are precisely in the high command, or rather, the absence of command as such, the absence of any kind of battle plan, even an elementary one, orders of the command purposefully aimed at the fact that 2TOE was defeated, overloading of ships, complete incapacity of junior flagships (one had already died by the time of the battle), etc. etc. And "thanks" for all this can be said: A - to Nikolai Romanov and B - Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky. Nebogatov, of course, can be condemned for cowardice and betrayal, but on the other hand - find yourself there yourself and try to do something on the general disbelief and defeatist psychology.



    And Nebogatov didn't have to invent and do anything. If he turned out to be so compassionate it was necessary to open the kingstones on the squadron and drown himself, fleeing on the remaining floating craft or "if possible." AT THAT TIME, if the Japanese left without taking care of saving their people (the Japanese) for this, kzlcndj would spit all over the world. Yes, they would not have done it. TIME was somewhat different, not as bitch as it is now.
    I’m not bloodthirsty, but Nebogatov should have been shot, because If you approach Rozhdestvensky strictly, there would be nothing to shoot, if he had not commanded the squadron, but the army, and had defeated the army, so that the commander was immediately to the wall, or what? And there Nebogatov, yes, is guilty, and MUST have been shot.
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 21: 40
      Perhaps Nebogatov saved your great-grandfather or great-grandfather of your friend. Why should he simply destroy the remnants of the fleet, having, first of all, personnel? For an idea? But the war then began mainly for forest concessions in Korea, where the royal family had a share. And kill a few thousand young lives because of the businessman king? Probably stupid. Honor and praise to Admiral Nebogatov.
      1. 0
        17 June 2015 22: 04
        The war started by Japan. bully
      2. 0
        18 June 2015 11: 23
        Quote: Dema46
        Honor and praise to Admiral Nebogatov.

        Then "Honor and praise" to General Bobir, who surrendered Novogeorrievsk in 1915 almost without defense.
        Who else will we honor?
        If Nebogatov deployed a squadron and even brought all these 4 battleships to the neutral port, I would agree with you.
  29. +7
    17 June 2015 11: 50
    In the book "Tsushima" A. Novikov-Priboy wrote Why did not our shells explode? After the Tsushima battle, this question
    He was interested in many, and everyone was convinced that the main evil was
    shell tubes. This version was intensively carried out by the Ministry of the Sea. On the
    in fact, the reason was different. Here is an explanation on this.
    expert in naval affairs, our famous academician.
    A. N. Krylov:
    "Someone from the artillery commanders thought that for the shells of the 2nd
    squadrons need to increase the percentage of humidity of pyroxylin. This initiator
    proceeded from the considerations that the squadron would spend a lot of time in the tropics,
    there will be no time to check the shells, and may appear on spontaneous combustion ships
    pyroxylin. The normal humidity of pyroxylin in shells was considered ten -
    twelve percent. For shells of the 2nd squadron, thirty
    percent. Established and equipped with such shells squadron. What happened?
    If any of them occasionally hit the target, then upon impact they exploded
    pyroxylin checkers of the firing cup of the projectile tube, but pyroxylin,
    placed in the shell itself did not explode due to its thirty percent
    humidity. All this became clear in 1906 during the shelling, with the squadron
    battleship "Glory" of the rebellious fortress Sveaborg. Battleship "Glory",
    while building, did not have time to get into the 2nd squadron, but was equipped with shells,
    manufactured for this squadron. When firing from the "Slava" fortress on
    the battleship did not see explosions of their shells.
    When the fortress was nevertheless taken and the gunners moved ashore, they found
    their shells in the fortress are almost completely intact.
    Only some of them were bottomless, while others were slightly scattered. About it
    then it was ordered to be silent. "
    1. Fleent
      -1
      6 July 2015 23: 12
      In general, Krylov, he is still a fabulist. The surname is very suitable for him.
  30. -2
    17 June 2015 11: 55
    Quote: AZB15
    But Nebogatov did not have to invent and do anything. If he turned out to be so compassionate it was necessary to open the kingstones on the squadron and drown,

    I don't know, of course, but I can assume that Nebogatov in that situation was fulfilling the will of the Nikolai-1 team, so to speak. That is, if the Eagles of the Kurosh type were sitting there in the wheelhouse, eager to fight and sink the entire Japanese fleet "in 20 minutes," then Nebogatov would certainly not have dared to surrender the detachment. And if he did, then the same one would be arrested, and even shot. And vice versa - the demoralized, completely deprived of the will to Victory, suppressed officers of "Nikolai-1" most likely simply did not leave Nebogatov with another choice. I think it was like this or something like that. As for the Kingstones, they tried to sink the "Eagle", but did not have time. Which suggests that his state of "afloat" was still very good and not as tragic as Silych described.
    Quote: AZB15
    AT THIS TIME, if the Japanese had left without preoccupying the salvation of their people (Japanese) for such a thing, kzlcndj would have spat on them all over the world.

    No one would give a damn. They did that. Asians are fucking. With the loss of one of our ships (I forgot which one), the Japanese ship at full speed passed through a group of Russian sailors who were on the water. Remember the 2nd World War. The Nanjing Massacre. What they did to American and British prisoners from Singapore. What did they do with the prisoners from the crew of the destroyer DD-219 "Edsall". These are Asians. Of course, it was better to drown himself than to surrender, but how it would have ended is not known.
    1. +2
      17 June 2015 12: 06
      However, there is a means of salvation, and the water was not cold ...
      There is no need to write anything about "damn Asians" if you compare them with American ghouls taking pictures with fried Japanese as hunting before Hiroshima. Or with the Chinese in Korea after her. For the entire time of WWII, according to an official order, not a single Japanese pilot was raised from the water by the Americans, moreover, they were found in it and shot. Also, not a single German parachutist was taken prisoner. Simply because they are better than these "ruminants", and the best is the enemy of the good, and better from ... kill! bully

      The Japanese pulled out 1904 / 5 Russians from the water and at first they behaved very noble. They didn’t crush explosives in shells, but some of the quartermasters. Yes, and then obliged to remain silent about this.
      1. +1
        17 June 2015 12: 19
        Quote: Scraptor
        However, there is a means of salvation, and the water was not cold ...

        Almost none and the water was pretty cold. Lead like that.
        Quote: Scraptor
        There is no need to write anything about "damn Asians" if you compare them with American ghouls who photographed with fried Japanese as hunting before Hiroshima.

        Well, after what they did in China, I honestly do not mind them. I really do not like Americans, but in this case they gave the samurai what they deserved.
        Quote: Scraptor
        For all the time, no Japanese pilots were raised from the water by the Americans according to an official order; moreover, they were found and shot in it.

        And they did it right.
        Quote: Scraptor
        The Japanese pulled out 1904 / 5 Russians from the water and at first they behaved very noble.

        Just because the war from the very beginning was very good for them.
        Quote: Scraptor
        They didn’t crush explosives in shells, but some of the quartermasters. Yes, and then obliged to remain silent about this.

        Only the clinical idiot of an Old Believer can consider that the Russo-Japanese War was miserably lost only because of waterlogged pyroxylin in the shells. Even with waterlogged explosives, our armor-piercing shells retained their full ability to penetrate armor, and high-explosive fragmentation explosives at least exploded. Although not always.
        1. 0
          17 June 2015 12: 29
          Well, well, yes - as in the Arctic, in which they do not live for a long time ...

          What have they done in China? If about Nanjing, then there the Chinese slaughtered the Chinese, but civil war is usual. At that, they not only cut but also ate from the living like from shawarma.

          Nezhally and "did the right thing" - it means he himself.

          Have you already recorded all the Old Believers there?
          Quote: Banson
          only due to waterlogged pyroxylin in shells

          on the contrary, it can only be considered "unimportant" if not worse.
          1. 0
            17 June 2015 12: 36
            Quote: Scraptor
            What have they done in China?

            Don't you know yes?
            Quote: Scraptor
            If about Nanjing, then there the Chinese slaughtered the Chinese, but civil war is usual. At that, not only they cut but also ate from the living like from shawarma.

            Not. There, the Japanese slaughtered the Chinese.
            Quote: Scraptor
            Have you already recorded all the Old Believers there?

            Current of you.
            Quote: Scraptor
            Nezhally and "did the right thing" - it means he himself.

            Which one? Right? Well, yes - I am. Crimes must be answered in full.
            Quote: Scraptor
            on the contrary, it can only be considered "unimportant" if not worse.

            In that huge sea of ​​factors that led to the defeat in the war - the overmoistening of pyroxylin is like that - a drop in the ocean. Against the backdrop of pretty shitty shells, the enemy had such shells too.
            1. -1
              17 June 2015 12: 56
              Well write ...

              No, your hutspes has long been proven at the expense of photomontage in the foreground, although in the background the Chinese are slaughtered like a living shawarma by the Chinese in the crowd.

              Check out yourself first. wassat

              Such! For lies and freedom to malice - you will answer ...

              Yes, wet BB this is so - a trifle, sir ... midshipmen, welcome with hostility! am
          2. +2
            17 June 2015 12: 46
            Quote: Scraptor
            What have they done in China? If about Nanjing, then there the Chinese slaughtered the Chinese, but civil war is usual. At that, they not only cut but also ate from the living like from shawarma.

            You still say that the Chinese killed themselves. Somewhere we already heard it.

            In Singapore in 1942, apparently, the Chinese also killed themselves? And in the Philippines (especially in Manila) in 1945 did the locals kill themselves too?
            1. -1
              17 June 2015 13: 02
              And so it was .. The civil war was there. And after the departure of the Japanese, another 4 years.

              Well, triads, well do ... they are. The Chinese will be much more skinnier and more policemanous than the Japanese, and they will eat everything.
              If the Chinese themselves killed themselves in Singapore, then there would be no one left - he is mostly Chinese. Of the huge number of white English prisoners of war there, too, almost no one was hurt. When, after the surrender of Japan, the Chinese tried to rebel there against the British, they quickly whistled the Japans back, they grabbed the Arisaki and stood by the leverage, after which the Chinese parted ...
        2. 0
          17 June 2015 21: 21
          Quote: Banson
          Well, after what they did in China

          Other times, other mores. In World War I, the Germans were not yet ripe for concentration camps and gas chambers
      2. -1
        17 June 2015 12: 36
        Quote: Scraptor
        However, there is a means of salvation, and the water was not cold ...

        Whole means of salvation the day after the battle? And you are an optimist, comrade ...
        Quote: Scraptor
        For all the time, no Japanese pilots were raised from the water by the Americans according to an official order; moreover, they were found and shot in it.

        And they lifted the pilots, and transferred to other ships. There is a documentary video online: USS Trathen (DD-530) approaches and transfers captured Japanese pilot to USS Sangamon (CVE-26).

        You probably meant the order, EMNIP, Halsey: to raise the Japanese last - only after all Americans have been saved.

        After the execution of 3 out of 8 aircraft crew members from the Doolittle raid (which became known in the fall of 1942) and the death march, the Japanese could hardly expect a different attitude towards themselves.
        1. +1
          17 June 2015 12: 48
          Yes, you know, there are such ...

          So "documentary video", or "the Japanese could hardly expect a different attitude towards themselves"?
          Well, one official video can be shot, and private videos are full on YouTube, as a pilot joyfully flies to meet a ship or a submarine, then the onlooker comes forward a thick-necked bastard with Tommy and under Yahoo! spreads it in water.
          It began to them right away, especially since the Americans do not consider yellow people at all.

          What about the German parachutists? Well, these were considered people, only another "rule clause" came into play (see above).
          1. 0
            17 June 2015 13: 01
            Quote: Scraptor
            Yes, you know, there are such ...

            Judging by the photo, on the same "Eagle" through the means of rescue it was possible discard pasta.
            Quote: Scraptor
            So "documentary video", or "the Japanese could hardly expect a different attitude towards themselves"?

            Both that and another are true.
            You stated that Yankee sailors killed all Japanese pilots by order. In fact, it turns out that the downed IJN / IJA pilots were rescued. But not always and not all, since the Japanese had a very "good" reputation.
            Quote: Scraptor
            What about the German parachutists? Well, these were considered people, only another "rule clause" came into play (see above).

            And the same as with the English commandos. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.
            1. 0
              17 June 2015 13: 09
              A cork in water does not sink, even with holes.

              In fact, it turns out that they shot one ostentatious video with salvation.

              What about the English commandos? laughing They were in uniform ... Like the German paratroopers.
    2. +1
      17 June 2015 12: 22
      There is no need to compare the officers of the RIF, even after the defeat, with the demoralized schoolgirls after being deprived of their "sweet". If the commander (Nebogatov) gave the command to "drown", then they would "drown themselves" without batting an eye.
      The HSE for the subsequent actions of the commander and officers did not cancel His IW, and was not going to cancel it.

      But about the "wild Asians" you are in vain. Yes, the Japanese got loose in 2 MV, but! there was a different ideology (urine of whites, give Asia for Asians). And at that time, Japan was striving with all its might towards "civilization", moreover, "Western". So, that would be saved by anyone. The Chinese and Koreans, etc., yes, they were slaughtered even then, but the whites ... When "Naniwa" fired "Cushing", the Europeans were carefully caught, and then ...

      Floating screws? And what was it necessary to do a rescue operation under the shells? "Englishwoman" after a one-time "kirdyk" 3 KBR, and then said - not to save and to break wherever the eyes see!
  31. +1
    17 June 2015 11: 57
    competent article. the same novice-surf-brbr speaks about unspent shells Ushakov sank from the hit of a shell in battle, and was not flooded by the crew with empty cellars as others assure. with all the distrust of this author, he could find out about the empty cellars of the sailors Ushakov (but what the admiral was thinking about was unlikely, otherwise it would be clairvoyance).
  32. +1
    17 June 2015 12: 25
    The Russian squadron battleships had a hefty problem - the low rate of fire of 305 mm Obukhov guns. They fired once every one and a half minutes, or even less, while the Japanese 305 mm could shoot once every 40-50 seconds.

    EMNIP, the "Fuji" rate of fire was still lower due to the need to return the main battery towers to the center plane to replenish the "tower" ammo after it was used up.
  33. +3
    17 June 2015 12: 32
    Thank you for the article.
    Please, dear author,
    If possible, in more detail about types
    The shells used by 2TOF,
    And about the maneuver carried out by Admiral Rozhdestvensky in battle.
  34. +2
    17 June 2015 12: 36
    Quote: Scraptor
    However, there is a means of salvation, and the water was not cold ...
    There is no need to write anything about "damn Asians" if you compare them with American ghouls taking pictures with fried Japanese as hunting before Hiroshima. Or with the Chinese in Korea after her. For the entire time of WWII, according to an official order, not a single Japanese pilot was raised from the water by the Americans, moreover, they were found in it and shot. Also, not a single German parachutist was taken prisoner. Simply because they are better than these "ruminants", and the best is the enemy of the good, and better from ... kill! bully

    The Japanese pulled out 1904 / 5 Russians from the water and at first they behaved very noble. They didn’t crush explosives in shells, but some of the quartermasters. Yes, and then obliged to remain silent about this.


    I do not like this "pribluda" - "to quote", you take up a lot of space on the forum, but here I could not resist focusing on one point. I will not search now, because this is a short video somewhere on the external railway, and I have no time, but those who wish can "google".
    The following is on the video: 2 MV, Pacific theater of operations, shooting from the side of the US ship (AB or KR, I don’t remember). A Japanese pilot in a life jacket floats along the side of the water. Americans to laugh (there is a sound) and screams shoot him from pistols. The sea is calm, there are no raids, to the pilot from the side of the 10 meters. And the Japanese didn’t react with a word or gesture, didn’t even turn his head, but it’s clear that he was floating alive (up to the pistols). Taka kuynya malyata ... All are good ....
    1. +1
      17 June 2015 13: 11
      Quote: AZB15
      Taka kuynya malyata ... All are good ....

      That's right. The Indian Ocean raid in 1944 and the fate of the survivors from the Behar is an example. The Japanese picked up 108 fleeing crew members and passengers - and after 9 days they beheaded 72 of them on board the Tone SRT.
  35. +1
    17 June 2015 13: 06
    Thanks for the great article! Considering the previously posted series of articles about "Sevastopoli", I look forward to continuing with the same analysis!
  36. +2
    17 June 2015 13: 19
    Many thanks to the author! I will not hide, I have long been waiting for a similar article from this person and I am very glad that my expectations were met. I am also very glad that the author allowed me to take a fresh look at the combat training of the crews and the facts of coal overload, since they are everywhere talked about, but no one gives specific figures and, most importantly, comparisons with the enemy. As always, they only delved into their own mistakes for the axiom of accepting the fact that the winner is always right and if he won, then he didn’t have such errors.
    Thanks again and really look forward to continuing !!!
  37. 0
    17 June 2015 13: 31
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Well ... RIF was also lucky - remember "Hatsuse" and "Yashima".

    This just confirms the well-known truth "lucky for those who are lucky", that is, to get something you need to do something. Now, if our minefield had not set those mines, then there would have been no luck))))
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 16: 45
      Quote: Trapper7
      This just confirms the well-known truth "lucky for those who are lucky", that is, to get something you need to do something. Now, if our minefield had not set those mines, then there would have been no luck))))

      And if Togo remembered his own actions that led to the death of Makarov, and most importantly - the reasons for the success of that operation - then we could not have been lucky. smile
  38. ABM
    ABM
    +1
    17 June 2015 13: 37
    Quote: THE_SEAL
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: sevtrash
    If this goes on, the author will prove that the 2nd Pacific Squadron was a model of preparation for a clash. But what to do with that indisputable historical fact about which the author speaks at the beginning - the defeat of Tsushima? Attribute to the chain of accidents irresistible force?

    Let's wait for the next articles :)))

    Andrey, confirm or refute such a myth - before the campaign the 2nd squadron wanted to recruit experienced commandants from the Black Sea Fleet, but it did not work out. Before that, they wanted to include armadillos from the Black Sea, but Turkey, under pressure from the British, planned to close the straits in this case. Truth or fiction?


    Let me answer? straits and were closed to warships of all classes. As an exception, the Turkish government, in peacetime, allowed our warships to be repaired in the Black Sea a couple of times ... About the gunners - they were no better than those in the Baltic. And the rumors about sending to the war led to a revolutionary situation - the most famous uprisings on the battleship Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky and the cruiser Ochakov ...
  39. 0
    17 June 2015 14: 31
    An article in the technique of youth was. Very interesting with the analysis of courses and maneuvers of squadrons.
    The main conclusion of that article was that Russian shells were better than Japanese in penetration. If the author finds and reads this article, it will be useful.
    We look forward to continuing.
    1. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 23: 25
      The shells were Russian. And the Japanese used the British. The British are by definition the best. Just at the place of production. Another technological level.
      But for armor penetration, not only shells, but also guns are important. And there was trouble. The Russians had Russian guns. The Japanese have British. Not Stamps, of course. Their Britons put on their ships. Just EOSy. But even EOSs were much better than Russian guns. Not all. But only those that were from GIMA. Those that were from GAU were completely nothing. But there were only 23 of them in the RIF (without the Black Sea Fleet). In three modifications.
  40. +2
    17 June 2015 14: 37
    Quote: tasha
    I recommend a very interesting analysis by V. Koffman at the link below:

    "Tsushima: Analysis Against Myths"

    http://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_7/page_18/page_19/Page_32/kofman-analiz/

    The vulnerability of the Russian squadron for 8 ", 6" and even 3 "shells that did not pierce the armor is explained primarily by the overloading of the ships. This idea was first expressed by V.P. Kostenko, and later developed by other scientists-shipbuilders. In particular, V.L. Pozdyunin writes that battleships of the "Borodino" type were overloaded up to 15500 tons. Their average deepening increased by 0,76 m, and the meta-centric height decreased to 0,76 m, instead of the 1,19 m projected by experiment. acceptance of a large number of various reserves for the upcoming voyage ... How large the supply of coal received is shown by the fact that on May 15 (the second day of the battle) the battleship Apraksin had a supply of coal that was 20% higher than the normal supply. " In addition, before the battle, the new battleships of Rozhdestvensky's squadron had 500 tons of fresh water each instead of the prescribed supply of 120 tons. "This water was taken into rooms that were not adapted for its storage, and it could overflow freely." As a result, the maximum allowable roll of Russian battleships of the "Borodino" type did not exceed 6-7 degrees. It is noteworthy that if the battleships retained the same overload as when leaving Libau (i.e., a displacement of 15500 tons and a metacentric height of 0,76 m), then to overturn them it would be necessary to lose 17% of the moment of inertia of the cargo waterline area - exactly the same as that of a typical English (Japanese) battleship with its metacentric height of 0,91 m. In reality, the stability of Russian ships to Tsushima has significantly decreased. (See VL Pozdyunin, "Encyclopedia of Shipbuilding", vols. 1-2, ML., 1935, 1938; NP Muru. "Basics of the unsinkability of a ship", Moscow. Voenizdat, 1990).
    1. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 23: 32
      How large was the supply of coal taken is shown by the fact that on the battleship Apraksin on May 15 (the second day of the battle) there was a supply of coal that was 20% higher than the normal supply "
      Actually it's a bit. Even a little. The total coal reserve on Apraksin exceeded normal by 87%. Having less than a normal supply is not recommended. In this case, sea water should be taken as ballast.
  41. +6
    17 June 2015 14: 40
    By article. The author is a hammer! Nothing stunning and new, but infa is laid out on the shelves, chewed and analyzed - it is understandable even to some ... We have already written about a series about "Sevastopoli", there will be a series about "Tsushima". Smart, interesting and informative.

    On this topic. How is Shukshin in "Kalina Krasnaya" ... a huge bad luck, etc. Well, really - a huge bad luck! Well, what was the first to overkill not "Oslyaba" but, well, at least "Nissin", or something. You look and it would go differently. If my grandmother had ... she would be a grandfather. Therefore, we and hundreds of other "scribblers" and "specialists" can discuss at least maneuvers, at least shells, at least admirals and "crossing over T", there is no sense. Beaten, of course, but history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood. Now, if the wild CHFX would not be satisfied, as if right now "Mikasa" would sink, and smart thoughts were peacefully writing, then in general there would have been beauty! More about clever thoughts. Come here in the topic - navigator, "grandfather", gunsmith, shipbuilder - 99% of those present (including myself - if I was clever about "iron") would have evaporated from the topic instantly.

    The kingdom of heaven is to our dead sailors, peace be upon the Japanese.
    One thing pleases - ours pushed the "water Buryats" in 1945, took South Sakhalin, where I was born and raised !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  42. 0
    17 June 2015 14: 44
    You can discuss it as you like, but Nebogatov committed a war crime (which he himself did not refuse). The requirements of the Charter here are absolute and do not have a double interpretation.

    “All Russian warships must not lower their flag, pennants and seaweed before anyone, under pain of deprivation of their stomachs, and the Captain should be sworn an oath of faithful service that the ship handed to the enemy should not be given to him, but that he will see that it is impossible to save and withdraw the ship and he’d better to light a ship or sink, so that the enemy was not strengthened. "
    1. ABM
      ABM
      0
      17 June 2015 20: 26
      You didn’t take the charter from that year!
      read the acquittal to the officers of the EBR Eagle - at that time, surrender was ALLOWED! "when the possibilities for resistance are exhausted" - Stalin was not there :)
    2. ABM
      ABM
      +1
      17 June 2015 20: 26
      You didn’t take the charter from that year!
      read the acquittal to the officers of the EBR Eagle - at that time, surrender was ALLOWED! "when the possibilities for resistance are exhausted" - Stalin was not there :)
      1. 0
        17 June 2015 21: 32
        The surrender of the ship was not allowed in any edition of the Charter. "The impossibility to continue resistance" served only as a mitigating circumstance, but even so, it directly obliged "to prevent the capture of the ship by the enemy." This norm literally migrated literally into the Charter of the Soviet Navy.
        In KU-78: “Navy ships under no circumstances lower their flag in front of the enemy, preferring death to surrender to enemies.”
  43. +2
    17 June 2015 14: 54
    The author of the article is my respect! From the first lines of the article it becomes clear that the article was written by a professional who knows about the fleet not from the pages of Internet sites, but who himself served on it. I look forward to continuing with great interest.
  44. +1
    17 June 2015 15: 05
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: AZB15
    Taka kuynya malyata ... All are good ....

    That's right. The Indian Ocean raid in 1944 and the fate of the survivors from the Behar is an example. The Japanese picked up 108 fleeing crew members and passengers - and after 9 days they beheaded 72 of them on board the Tone SRT.


    Yes, somehow not that. Temporary insanity, or what? We fell under the "war crime".

    Woodward David. Secret Raiders. Sabotage operations of the German Navy.
    Quote: “Finally, in March 1944, two Japanese heavy cruisers Tone and Tikuma sank the motor ship Behar (7840 brt), captured its passengers and crew and destroyed most of them. For this, Vice Admiral Sakonji and Captain Mayuzumi were put on trial after the war. "




  45. +1
    17 June 2015 15: 40
    Well, why don’t we remember what were six old armored ships (Navarin, Nakhimov, Nicholas 1, Apraksin, Senyavin and Ushakov)? These were old troughs, the Japanese were reduced to a separate squadron, which did not participate in the main battle. also was old. In fact, the main blow of all armored forces was held by five new armadillos. Well, only the lazy did not write about our shells.
    1. +1
      17 June 2015 17: 00
      Quote: RomanN
      Well, why don’t we remember what were six old armored ships (Navarin, Nakhimov, Nicholas 1, Apraksin, Senyavin and Ushakov)?

      And since when have "Apraksin", "Senyavin" and "Ushakov" become old armored ships? They joined the fleet in 1896-1899.

      Another thing is that they were not originally intended for such transitions and such battles. For they were battleships of coastal defense.
      1. Fleent
        -1
        6 July 2015 23: 40
        From birth. Almost all Russian-built ships were substandard from birth. So they were designed, built and assembled. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, only three ships were built air-conditioned. Two, old (but not obsolete) from birth. This is Victory and Poltava. And one was air-conditioned. This is Rurik. Well, almost air-conditioned. I didn’t reach the condition by the smallest detail. The rest was just floating junk. For different reasons. Petropavlovsk and Sevastopol, even imported cars did not help.
  46. +2
    17 June 2015 15: 42
    Good start. Looks like the dilettantes hurt the old tsushima :). At various times I saw many facts in the corresponding branches of the Tsushima forums. True, there is something new, for example, with the number of shells left on the Orel. When I was on Tsushima, Kostenko's "testimony" had not yet been questioned.
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 18: 26
      So it turns out, if the Japanese don't lie, each tower (figuratively) of the "Eagle" was fired 13 times (with a rate of fire - the main battery worked for 20 minutes) during the battle and captured? Nifiga chipped off art numbers for themselves! True, “Varyag” also left on its own after the rise.
  47. -1
    17 June 2015 16: 26
    So, the experienced Pacific commandos under the command of Wittgeft took almost 4 hours to hit Mikas with 24 rounds. But Rozhestvensky’s “sackies” who were in much worse conditions (unprofitable angle, due to which part of the guns couldn’t shoot, strong excitement) took 19 minutes for 15 hits. Something here ends meet somehow wrong ...
    And well, he didn’t sink then the vaunted Mikas ???? Or from the battle did he go out into the smoke broken and damaged ???? There is no result from so many hits ,,, and this is reliably recognized ,,, so why should I roll the cotton wool then the respected author and fairy tell about the chicken Ryaba and the golden egg ... Grandfather beat, beat not broken ...... woman beat, beat did not break ??? No one questions the professionalism of the commentators, neither Vitgeft nor Rozhdestvensky, .... but there is no result .... let's give practical shots ,,, report about so many hits on the target that remained intact and you’ve also gotten a shot in the back and don’t blush then on the carpet, when debriefing
  48. +2
    17 June 2015 16: 28
    Guys, let's not fuss. Let's wait for the continuation :-) I think the author is preparing a "piano in the bushes"
  49. DHA
    +2
    17 June 2015 17: 40
    I read "Tsushima" by Novikov-Priboi as a kid more than 30 years ago, then re-read it more than once, studied a sea of ​​all literature about the Tsushima battle (quite contradictory). But why there was such a defeat I cannot understand. At that time I was almost a child and felt sorry for me, hurt and annoyed, because I could not understand why this was so. But I still can't understand, I hope the continuation will give at least some hint.
  50. 0
    17 June 2015 17: 56
    Quote: Silhouette
    If you are too lazy to type "Kolchak's interrogation protocols" in a search engine, then you can:

    Starikov N.V. - Admiral Kolchak. Interrogation Records ...
    seedoff.net ›torrent ... nv ... kolchak-protokoly-doprosa



    Citizen or comrade "Silhouette", but about THIS you are in the courses: For the first time the texts of interrogations were published in Berlin in the early 1920s in the "Archive of the Russian Revolution" No. 10. However, the publication contained many errors and typos due to illegibility of the text, therefore, in 1925, in Leningrad, the Bolsheviks released a "clean" version with a foreword by Konstantin Popov, who initially directed the investigation.

    And Starikov is not the author, but the compiler and writer of the Foreword. You tell me more about the "Memoirs of the maid of honor Vyrubova" nakalyat ...
  51. +1
    17 June 2015 17: 59
    I'm not going to argue or add anything substantive. But this is something worth talking about and they will also try to write about it somehow. Our Russian newspapers played a huge role in creating myths about the Russo-Japanese War! You would read them - for 1905 and 1906, and your eyes would wilt from... from the feeling that the newspapermen have one goal - to RUIN EVERYTHING, and not to get to the bottom of the truth. And okay, “Iskra” of Lenin, “Social Democrat” and other illegal things - no, there’s no talk about them! And we are talking about STATE NEWSPAPERS and AROUND THAT. This is where the myths are... and everyone is against their own homeland! The impression is that the pen was dipped in poisoned ink.
    1. +1
      17 June 2015 18: 17
      Yeah. There was also “Staff Captain Rybnikov”. And we also had NTV and other slush and abomination and Masyuk in the mid-90s during the events in “one small but proud republic.”
  52. +2
    17 June 2015 18: 19
    If the ships were overloaded with coal, then the question arises: What prevented you from going around Japan? It was possible to calculate the time. For example, determine the approach for the night, both to Japan and to Vladivostok. The enemy would have to let his squadron catch up or cut off. And if they collided at night, then the effectiveness of armor-piercing shells at close range would become apparent.
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 19: 15
      Quote: Denimax
      If the ships were overloaded with coal, then the question arises: What prevented you from going around Japan?

      The presence of the Kuril Islands belonging to Japan. To get to Vladik bypassing Japan, you need to go to the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. This means that the Kuril Islands cannot be avoided. And then you will still need to pass through the La Perouse Strait between Sakhalin and Hokkaido.
      That is, Togo will have time to prepare for the battle.
  53. 0
    17 June 2015 18: 33
    Quote: Denimax
    If the ships were overloaded with coal, then the question arises: What prevented you from going around Japan? It was possible to calculate the time. For example, determine the approach for the night, both to Japan and to Vladivostok. The enemy would have to let his squadron catch up or cut off. And if they collided at night, then the effectiveness of armor-piercing shells at close range would become apparent.


    The passage through the Kuril Strait, which the Japanese themselves were afraid to walk through, was hampered by the proximity of the naval base to destroyer forces, as well as the general stupidity of the idea. NIGHT FIGHT???? EFFECTIVENESS OF PROJECTILES????????? WITHOUT radar???? j[etnm vj;yj , njdfhbo rfgbnfy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  54. 0
    17 June 2015 18: 56
    Quote: AZB15
    They interfered with the passage of the Kuril Strait, along which the Japanese themselves were afraid to walk,

    Was there bad navigation? Sorry, I didn't know.
    Quote: AZB15
    proximity of the naval base to destroyer forces

    Destroyers of that time did not pose much of a threat. The torpedoes only fired back at a couple of cables. The squadron could have fought back.
    Quote: AZB15
    EFFECTIVENESS OF PROJECTILES?

    Well, at 40 cables there will only be a blow to the armor, which is already at its end.
    Quote: AZB15
    WITHOUT radar?

    What radars? Back then they could only illuminate with spotlights.
    1. 0
      17 June 2015 19: 20
      Quote: Denimax
      Destroyers of that time did not pose much of a threat. The torpedoes only fired back at a couple of cables.

      In a night battle and in low visibility conditions - they imagined it. Especially if the target shines with spotlights, making it easier to detect.
      As practice has shown, the best tactic when meeting with MM was to turn off the spotlights, slow down (so as not to accidentally illuminate yourself with sparks from the pipes) and sneak around unnoticed. How can an entire squadron do this...
  55. +1
    17 June 2015 19: 13
    Quote: Denimax
    Quote: AZB15
    They interfered with the passage of the Kuril Strait, along which the Japanese themselves were afraid to walk,

    Was there bad navigation? Sorry, I didn't know.
    Quote: AZB15
    proximity of the naval base to destroyer forces

    Destroyers of that time did not pose much of a threat. The torpedoes only fired back at a couple of cables. The squadron could have fought back.
    Quote: AZB15
    EFFECTIVENESS OF PROJECTILES?

    Well, at 40 cables there will only be a blow to the armor, which is already at its end.
    Quote: AZB15
    WITHOUT radar?

    What radars? Back then they could only illuminate with spotlights.



    You guys, please call me if something is wrong. Due to my non-commissioned rank, I am not capable of scribbling in the same language as you; you should find yourself an interlocutor by analogy.
  56. ABM
    ABM
    0
    17 June 2015 19: 44
    The leaders Moscow and Kharkov left Sevastopol with a support group consisting of LKR "Voroshilov", um "Smyshleny" and "Smart" with the task of shelling the port of Constanta. As a result of the “brilliant” operation, “Moscow” was lost, “Kharkov” was seriously damaged. In this case, who “killed” the initial efforts of the Soviet sailors?[/quote]

    there the story is different - they did not dare to fire at the Voroshilov, which was there as cover, with long-range 180 mm guns
  57. 0
    17 June 2015 19: 48
    Quote: Alexey RA
    In a night battle and in low visibility conditions - they imagined it. Especially if the target shines with spotlights, making it easier to detect.
    As practice has shown, the best tactic when meeting with MM was to turn off the spotlights, slow down (so as not to accidentally illuminate yourself with sparks from the pipes) and sneak around unnoticed. How can an entire squadron do this...

    When the squadron approaches, the destroyers will still be on patrol. When attacking, some will highlight targets, while others will attack without lights.
    In this case, you won’t be able to get through without sparks and without spotlights. You'll have to look for targets yourself and try not to let them get caught by a torpedo shot. And the advantage in strength will be on the side of the squadron, there are simply more guns.
  58. ABM
    ABM
    +1
    17 June 2015 19: 48
    Quote: DHA
    I read "Tsushima" by Novikov-Priboi as a kid more than 30 years ago, then re-read it more than once, studied a sea of ​​all literature about the Tsushima battle (quite contradictory). But why there was such a defeat I cannot understand. At that time I was almost a child and felt sorry for me, hurt and annoyed, because I could not understand why this was so. But I still can't understand, I hope the continuation will give at least some hint.



    the same! but I figured it out to the end - several thousand hours of free time, about a hundred thousand rubles spent on all the books (at current prices) that were published (there was no Internet then) and the picture became more or less clear... but here you need your own book write - even in the format of an article it won’t fit :)
  59. ABM
    ABM
    0
    17 June 2015 20: 02
    Quote: THE_SEAL
    Quote: Scraptor
    Adequate shells are those that do not explode 7 once in a row drilling holes in Japanese armor?
    You are spreading lies here Mr. / Comrade. Ben & Sohn, outweighing the responsibility for Tsushima from those who arranged it all, to the Russian Tsar.

    If my memory serves me right, then Japanese armadillos were built in England. The armor is accordingly aglitsky.


    on Shikishima and Mikasa - Krupp armor, it was called that way after the place where production began, and they made it everywhere - including in Russia, 4 of our new Borodino types had the same, on older Japanese Fuji types - Harvey's, by 15 percent -20 is less durable, we had one like this on Oslyab
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Fleent
      0
      6 July 2015 23: 55
      On Sikishima there was Harvey-nickel armor, not Krupp armor. But despite this, Shikishima was better protected than Mikasa. The battleship was more powerful.
      And the most powerful Japanese EDB of that war was Hatsuse. The same one that Vitgeft killed.
      There was also a Harvey-nickel plant on Oslyab.
      on older Japanese Fuji type - Harvey's
      Only on GP, ​​traverses and barbettes. In other places it was steel.
  60. ABM
    ABM
    +1
    17 June 2015 20: 09
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Denimax
    Destroyers of that time did not pose much of a threat. The torpedoes only fired back at a couple of cables.

    In a night battle and in low visibility conditions - they imagined it. Especially if the target shines with spotlights, making it easier to detect.
    As practice has shown, the best tactic when meeting with MM was to turn off the spotlights, slow down (so as not to accidentally illuminate yourself with sparks from the pipes) and sneak around unnoticed. How can an entire squadron do this...


    just keep one more thing in mind - when
    Quote: AZB15
    Quote: Denimax
    If the ships were overloaded with coal, then the question arises: What prevented you from going around Japan? It was possible to calculate the time. For example, determine the approach for the night, both to Japan and to Vladivostok. The enemy would have to let his squadron catch up or cut off. And if they collided at night, then the effectiveness of armor-piercing shells at close range would become apparent.


    The passage through the Kuril Strait, which the Japanese themselves were afraid to walk through, was hampered by the proximity of the naval base to destroyer forces, as well as the general stupidity of the idea. NIGHT FIGHT???? EFFECTIVENESS OF PROJECTILES????????? WITHOUT radar???? j[etnm vj;yj , njdfhbo rfgbnfy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    no - it was a good move! 2/3 (out of 63) Japanese small-displacement destroyers would not have participated in the battle - their range did not allow them to reach the straits. Further, instead of a two-day battle (the range to Vladivostok is 500 miles), there would be a one-day battle, and the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers and destroyers would have to help
    1. 0
      18 June 2015 10: 19
      Quote: ABM
      no - it was a good move! 2/3 (out of 63) Japanese small-displacement destroyers would not have participated in the battle - their range did not allow them to reach the straits.

      What if we relocate them to the north after it becomes clear that the Russians will not go through Tsushima? This is what the Japanese had in the north before the 2nd and 3rd TOE entered the East China Sea:
      Along with the auxiliary cruisers Hong Kong Maru (6169 tons gross), Nippon Maru (6168 tons gross), Kumano Maru (5 tons gross), the armored cruisers Azuma have been stationed in the northern straits since early January 076 ", "Asama", somewhat later "Yakumo" and "Iwate", old cruisers like "Matsushima", "Akitsushima", "Takachiho".
      In addition, the coastal defense ships “Musashi” and “Takao”, as well as the 4th destroyer detachment, were constantly guarding the Tsugar Strait.
      All these ships, having spent 1-1,5 months in a difficult winter, “northern” voyage for the Japanese, one by one return to their main bases of Yokosuka or Kure. During their stay in northern waters they were based at Hakodate and Aomori. As temporary, more northern forward strongholds near the southern Kuril Straits, they used the following bays: Akkesi (on the ocean coast of Hokkaido), Shikotan van (Sikotan Island), Shiranuka (Kunashiri Island), Moyoro van, Hitokappu and Roku bai (Iturup Island or Etorohu Sima); in the west near the La Perouse Strait (Soya kaikyo) - Oniwaki raid near Rishiri Island
      (c) V.E. Egoriev "Operations of Vladivostok cruisers during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905."
      Quote: ABM
      Further, instead of a two-day battle (the range to Vladivostok is 500 miles), there would be a one-day battle, and the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers and destroyers would have to help

      Having received notification on April 9 that Rozhdestvensky’s squadron of 42 ships had passed the Strait of Malacca the day before and thus appeared in the East China Sea, Togo gave the order to Admiral Kamimura to mine the entrance to the Vladivostok port.
      Having approached Vladivostok with part of the 2nd squadron, the Japanese admiral set on April 15, 1905 along the line - the northern tip of Korsakov Island - Askold Island 715 min.
      (c) V.E. Egoriev "Operations of Vladivostok cruisers during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905."

      On May 24, a Thunderbolt was blown up on this mine.
      As a result, the VOK was reduced to one BrKR "Russia". "Gromoboy" is under repair until September 1905. "Bogatyr" will be out of repair only in July.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Fleent
        0
        7 July 2015 00: 05
        There was no point in bringing all this Baltic rubbish to the Far East. On the contrary, some things had to be removed from the Far East before the REV.
        For the war with the Japanese, the RIF in the Far East was needed:
        Retvizan
        Russia
        Bogatyr
        Accordion
        Novik
        Boyarin
        Varangian
        Askold
        Tsesarevich
        Victory
        Relight
        Oslyabya
        Thunderbolt
        All. Nothing more was needed in the Far East. All the garbage that Rozhdestvensky dragged there was worth nothing militarily.
  61. 0
    17 June 2015 20: 11
    Well, a very interesting story! This is if you look at it from one side, and from the other...................!?!?!?!?!
  62. ABM
    ABM
    0
    17 June 2015 20: 23
    Quote: Taoist
    Well, that's why I wrote that "almost everything" ... Again, the explosion on mines of two battleships systematically went along the same route is difficult to fully attribute to "accidents" - it is rather a pattern of naval war ... But the shell in the Tsesarevich's felling when Togo had already commanded a retreat or a fire in the cellars flooded with water from a ruptured pipeline from the same shell ... This is definitely a "confluence of probabilities" ... You can even count how many chances out of a million there were exactly on such a trajectory ...



    no no! What is the accident with the Japanese battleships? according to the existing “maritime laws of war,” mines were allowed to be installed exclusively in their territorial waters, then they were 3 miles from the coast, if anyone is not aware. The Japanese, for some reason, firmly believed in all these traditions invented by the Europeans and could not even imagine that the Russians would decide to place them further from the coast :) just think - what kind of traditions and laws are there :)
    1. 0
      18 June 2015 18: 50
      Quote: ABM
      no no! What is the accident with the Japanese battleships?

      Such an accident.
      But it’s not that the EBRs walking along the same “corridor” ran into a minefield, but that the commander of the Japanese fleet did not notice the pattern of actions of his subordinates. The very stereotype for which he had shortly before punished Makarov.

      If Togo had paid attention to the patterned tactics of his EDBs, then the Amur mine bank would have been exposed in vain.
  63. +1
    17 June 2015 20: 59
    thank you - very good article!
  64. 0
    17 June 2015 21: 00
    thank you very good article. I'm looking forward to the continuation....
  65. 0
    17 June 2015 21: 10
    Quote: ABM
    What is the accident with the Japanese battleships?

    But what a performance. Two battleships are on the personal account of a simple minzag.
    It's really not a record. In the Dardanelles operation, a Turkish minzag (the size of a tugboat) deployed 26 mines and sank 3 battleships. And 3 were damaged, one of them was a modern battlecruiser (8-305mm), which had to run aground.
    1. Fleent
      0
      7 July 2015 00: 13
      Actually, on the account of Admiral Vitgeft. Without his order, the minzag would not have lifted a finger.
  66. +1
    17 June 2015 21: 16
    It is clear from the article that even after the passage of time we know few facts.
    For example, the author criticizes the statement that the Japanese shot 5 rounds of ammunition during an exercise. How much is this? The author asks where they would get hundreds of replacement barrels. How much was actually replaced and was it replaced at all? Where would you get it? Here is a question for those who financed and gave loans. It’s also interesting how much they actually gave, what they bought with that money, etc.
    1. Fleent
      0
      7 July 2015 00: 21
      Not hundreds. And they had trunks. They bought quite a lot before the war. I can’t give exact numbers from memory.
      It is clear from the article that even after the passage of time we know few facts
      What do you. I'm still waiting for the Russian victory at Tsushima to be announced. And in the Russo-Japanese War as a whole. After all, the Russians are celebrating the “victory at Borodino.” This, if anyone doesn’t know, was when the glorious army fled from the battlefield, leaving behind guns, weapons and their wounded. This is neatly called “after counting the losses, the troops retreated.” And “victory in the Battle of Kursk” is also celebrated. This is when industry worked for six months to restore the number of tanks destroyed during this “victory.” Soon it will be Tsushima’s turn.
  67. +1
    17 June 2015 22: 18
    Thank you for the article! but I would like to know whose idea it was to increase humidity, which led to the disaster! The investigation conducted by the royal commission seemed to identify the culprits, but did not find their names anywhere.
  68. +2
    17 June 2015 22: 46
    Andrey, thank you very much for the article, I’m looking forward to the continuation hi !
  69. 0
    19 June 2015 18: 02
    I read it with pleasure. Thank you. It’s a pity that such moments were not disclosed: such as the superiority of shells with shimosa against ours. And it would be interesting to read about destroyers
  70. 0
    27 June 2015 13: 58
    It's time to rehabilitate Rozhdestvensky!
  71. 0
    30 June 2015 21: 04
    like many, the question “why” has been haunting me for many years...
    to the author - definitely +. Of course, today it is very difficult, if not impossible, to collect all the facts into a single and unambiguous picture. and any professional research on this topic is very important. But the fact that the author knows what he is writing about is clear to many, I think. not everyone - because for some, Manstein was prevented from coming to the aid of Paulus not only by Santa Claus, but even by mice who chewed the wiring on German tanks. but not Russian soldiers...
  72. Fleent
    0
    6 July 2015 21: 21
    Discussing floating binders like "Borodino" is not a very interesting activity. But now it is necessary. We will leave the fables about the cannon “Voroshilov shooters” to the conscience of the author. Let's go straight to the state of the bandages at Tsushima.
    The fact is that designing and building a ship is not an easy thing. It requires fairly high qualifications of the associated personnel. Total staff.
    In Russia this was difficult. All galoshes are Russian-built, state-owned. It was difficult to call them normal warships in shipyards. If my memory serves me right, off the top of my head, I can name only three (!!!) ships that, albeit with reservations, met the world requirements for ships of their class.
    This is, firstly, the battleship Pobeda. When it entered service, it was quite comparable to the level of the old (but not obsolete) squadron battleships of the 2nd class. Which is exactly what he was.
    Secondly, this is the armored cruiser-raider Rurik. For his time he was quite up to par.
    And thirdly, this is the 1st class squadron battleship Poltava. Everything here is like Pobeda’s, old from birth. But not outdated. But this is only due to the abundance of imported components.
    This completes the list of ships; further we can only consider the binders. This is what we will do using the Borodino model as an example. First of all, we must immediately make a reservation: these ships were designed extremely ugly. Everyone always writes about the so-called. "construction overload" Not only in this case, in general, for Russia this is a common place. This is actually nonsense. At least in the case of the Borodino team. One of the shipyards may be overloaded. Two, in some fantastic case. But when three different shipyards build ships approximately the same, with a maximum difference in displacement of 90 tons, this is not a construction overload. This is a designed underload. Simply put, these are not hand-assed builders. These designers are assholes. But we won’t hide the construction overload, we won’t hide it. The product of this model is called “Glory”. And quite serious, 250 tons.
    But let's return to our designers. These same designers set their heads up with approximately 640 tons on each carPlik. What does it mean? This means that the GP, which according to their “project” was supposed to protrude from the water by 0,5 meters with normal displacement, would actually protrude from it by 0,2 meters. But that's not all. The fact is that the difference between the full and normal displacement for coal according to the project was 448 tons. Those. 21-22 cm of full recess. This means that with full displacement the GP of these binders would actually always be immersed in water. This was completely unacceptable.
    Therefore, after the construction of such scows, the composition of their load is always reviewed. This is done in order to “plant” their GP in the water strictly according to the design. This was always done mainly through coal reserves. Although the volume of coal pits has not changed, the normal and full coal supply have changed. They were reduced by the amount of “design underload”. As a result, the total coal reserve became only 600 tons. At an economical speed this is 1550 nautical miles. And the full one is 310 nautical miles. Laughter. Not squadron battleships, but coastal defense battleships. And no more than that.
  73. Fleent
    0
    6 July 2015 21: 22
    Read more.
    A little theory. A ship is fully combat-ready at normal displacement. At full displacement, the ship has limited combat capability. Those. combat-ready, but not in the best fighting shape. With a further increase in load, the armored ship gradually becomes completely unfit for combat. It can shoot, but the GP armor no longer protects it. What I mean is that if the Borodintsev main gun protruded from the water by less than 28 cm, then the ship, ACCORDING TO THE PROJECT, was considered to be of limited combat capability. This is exactly with our actual 600 tons of coal. And no more. However, there was also the so-called. "transport" coal reserves. The volume of coal pits has not gone away, it has remained the same. But this is not for combat, this is for transitions.
    Of course, the top belt didn’t go away either. But calling ships protected by such armor along the overhead line squadron battleships is somehow completely unkosher. The GP binders of the “Admiral Ushakov” type, after conversion to a comparable type of armor, were approximately the same thickness. Now will we call the Ushakovs squadron 1st class battleships?
    It should also be noted that these were Russian products. With appropriate quality components. Therefore, going to the Far East, they loaded themselves up to their ears with all sorts of spare parts, consumables and other useful things. 544 tons, this is 26 cm of additional precipitation. In addition, gentlemen officers did not want to drink water from desalination plants. Therefore, we took another 40 tons of drinking water (2 cm) above the norm. And another 110 tons (5 cm) of excess food. And besides this, 91 tons (4,5 cm) of ammunition are in excess of the norm. I doubt that all these reserves were used up by Tsushima.
    Now about the “coal overload”. There was an overload of coal, and this overload was very serious. At Orel it was 495 tons (23,5 cm above the full draft), at Alexander it was 605 tons (29 cm above the full draft). And at full load, as we remember, their main engine protruded from the water by only 28 cm. Constant confusion stems from the fact that the coal reserves at Tsushima are compared with its design figures. But it is necessary to compare with the actual ones. In fact, the Borodino residents under Tsushima were not in combat, but in transport condition.
    For reference. Andryusha, loading coal within the limits of its full supply is NOT an overload. This is a completely planned load. Overloading is loading in excess of the full stock.
    Everything about “overload”. In the next part we’ll talk about “increased coal consumption”, “traction” and other nonsense. We need to talk. Apparently, the author is not familiar with the design of stoves. At least the “potbelly stove” system. Otherwise, he would know that if the chimney is damaged and draft decreases, coal consumption does NOT increase, but DECREASES. Everything is elementary, Andryusha. Just chemistry, and no magic. Less thrust, less oxidizer. Less oxidizing agent, lower reaction rate. Lower reaction speed, lower fuel consumption. Coal consumption increases when blowing into the furnaces. It's true. But more on this later.
  74. 0
    7 July 2015 00: 21
    Ships of equal classes had to fight. In general, in squadrons of equal strength. The entire war so far has clearly demonstrated the greatest survivability of modern ships.
    Togo's only trump card was the advantage in squadron speed. With proper leadership of the battle, this advantage made it possible to impose a battle distance on the enemy.
    At first glance, Togo should have strived to fight at minimum distances (especially since his clear advantage in the intermediate caliber of artillery would have affected these distances). I am convinced that nine out of ten commanders would have acted exactly like this in Togo’s place: short-range combat, a chaotic scuffle, relying on the samurai spirit and higher powers.
    But Togo proceeded from the fact that it is much easier to win an equal position than a lost one. Moreover, he did not want to expose his ships at pistol range to lightweight Russian shells with increased armor-piercing power. And he proposed a fantastic option (fantastic, based on the goal set - complete and resounding victory) - combat at ultra-long distances.
    In this case, of course, armor-piercing shells lost all meaning: armor did not penetrate at such distances. And Togo pinned his hopes on thin-walled high-explosive shells, powerless against waist armor, easily crushing unarmored parts of ships and causing fires.
    The idea should be considered successful, but not sufficient to achieve the result. With the existing shooting technique, the probability of a hit at long distances was close to zero. Meanwhile, high-explosive shells, which did not penetrate armor, could produce any significant effect only with massive hits. And Togo decides to use the advantage in squadron speed in order to achieve the classic “crossing T” maneuver.
    Actually, “crossing T” is the main and perhaps the only form of using the advantage in squadron speed. The essence of the maneuver comes down to the fact that the enemy’s lead ship finds itself under concentric fire from the entire squadron, while subsequent matelots are practically completely deprived of the opportunity to participate in the battle.
    But concentrating the fire of even two ships on one enemy ship requires fire control devices that have not yet been invented. Indeed, Rozhdestvensky’s order to “concentrate fire on the enemy’s lead ship” led to the fact that the sea around the Mikasa was boiling with shell impacts, and against this background it was impossible to distinguish splashes from the falling shells of a particular ship. This made zeroing and any fire control at all impossible.
    Togo's idea was to defeat enemy ships without shooting at all. The squadron fired at a certain distance in a certain direction - the shells were “focused” (similar to how a spherical mirror focuses rays). If the enemy ship tried to leave the focus, the entire enveloping squadron shifted, ensuring that the focal length was maintained.
  75. 0
    7 July 2015 00: 37
    The meeting of the squadrons took place on May 27, 1905 at 13:30. By this time, Togo already knew the course, speed and formation of the Russian squadron. In any battle, in addition to the sublime operational-strategic elements, there is also simple “technology”. It would not be an exaggeration to say that the reliable and intelligent work of its reconnaissance cruisers played a huge role in Togo’s success.
    In a naval battle, the moment the battle begins is decisive. And here, as almost all researchers write, Togo made a serious mistake. He did not calculate the maneuver and was forced to make a successive turn of 16 points in the immediate vicinity of the Russian squadron. Numerous descriptions of the Battle of Tsushima indicate that by this maneuver the Japanese fleet was placed in a dangerous position and the Russian ships had the opportunity to almost inflict a decisive defeat on it by opening fire on a fixed turning point.
    Let us immediately note that if Togo made a mistake, then this mistake could in no way be associated with a miscalculation or erroneous maneuver. Let me remind you once again: from his scouts he knew exactly the course and speed of the Russian squadron. Therefore, there is no doubt that, moving towards the Russians to the south, the commander of the Japanese fleet knew that he would have to make a 16-point turn in front of the Russian ships. In other words, Togo’s “mistake” was a “home preparation.”
    But really, what other options can be offered? The start of the battle had to be accelerated, the situation had to be forced. Therefore, Togo's squadron had to go south. The alternative to Togo's maneuver was a brief (and obviously inconclusive) engagement on a collision course. After this, the Japanese squadron slipped south and about ten miles from the Russian ships (so as not to expose itself to danger!) turned north. With a speed difference of 4 knots, Togo would have caught up with the enemy at 16:16, and only by 30:XNUMX would he have been able to complete the “crossing T”, that is, to impose on the enemy the structure of the battle that he had strived for from the very beginning. In this case, any accidents could interfere, for example, a strip of fog.
    With his turn, Togo immediately drew a “crossing T”, achieving the correct formation at 13:45. He gained three hours of daylight. The gain was worth the risk.
    By the way: was the risk really that great? Turning time was 15 minutes. This is at best 30 salvos. At the same time, the enemy himself made the changeover and could not interrupt it. The formation of the Russian squadron did not best correspond to the organization of fire at the turning point. Taking into account the time when the decision was made, such a maneuver by Togo was clearly not foreseen by Rozhdestvensky, since even today most researchers consider it out of the ordinary and not in accordance with the “requirements of good maritime practice”; taking into account the shooting time and the number of towers that could actually fire at the turning point, we get that the Japanese squadron could receive about 400 shells during the turn. Taking the probability of a hit to be 5% (which is more likely to be too high than too low), we get 20 hits, evenly distributed among the 12 ships of the Japanese column. If we consider that during the battle “Mikasa” received 30 hits and remained in service, then these 20 probable hits can be safely assessed as insignificant. Eleven years later, the British 5th Battleship Squadron made a successive turn in sight of the entire German “High Seas Fleet,” which was firing at the “turning point.” The results were not decisive.
    By 13:45 Togo completed his moderately risky and precisely calculated maneuver, placing the flagships of the Russian squadron “Suvorov” and “Oslyabya” in the focus of concentrated fire from 12-inch high-explosive shells. Already at 14:25 these ships were out of action, losing their combat effectiveness. Subsequently, the Russian squadron frantically and more instinctively than consciously tried to leave the affected area, and the Japanese made every effort to maintain the advantageous position achieved, consistently concentrating fire on the lead Russian ship.
  76. 0
    7 July 2015 00: 45
    Togo's plan was fully implemented: the Russian squadron lost control, the ships received heavy damage on their unarmored sides, lost auxiliary artillery, and lost a lot of personnel. Extinguishing numerous fires with water led to the formation of loose surfaces and a sharp decrease in the stability of ships. In these conditions, it is not so important that by the end of the day’s battle the Japanese managed to sink not only the Oslyabya and Suvorov, which had completely lost their combat capability (the latter by a mine attack), but also the next two ships in the Russian column: Alexandra III and Borodino " They wouldn't go anywhere! The daytime battle created ideal conditions for night operations by destroyers.
    The destroyers sank the Sisoy the Great, Navarin, and Admiral Nakhimov and scattered the squadron into combat detachments stretching throughout the Sea of ​​Japan. The surrender of Nebogatov’s detachment was a worthy conclusion to Admiral Togo’s operational plan.

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