Military Review

The lack of engines and the prospects of military shipbuilding

105
The program for the construction of new ships for the Russian naval fleet ran into serious problems. One of the results of the Ukrainian crisis was the termination of military-technical cooperation with Ukraine, including in the field of ship power plants. Due to the lack of required units, the construction of several new ships of two projects at once can be disrupted.


20 May RIA News reported that the plant "Severnaya Verf" (St. Petersburg) is forced to curtail the construction of new corvettes project 20385. According to Leonid Kuzmin, the marketing director, the reason for this decision was the problems with the delivery of a number of important components. The 20385 project uses some equipment that was planned to be purchased from foreign companies. Due to recent developments in the international arena, the supply of necessary products has stopped. At present, the construction of two 20385 corvettes is under construction at the Severnaya Verf. In view of the need to complete construction, the search for the necessary equipment of domestic production is conducted.

L. Kuzmin noted that the replacement of imported components will be unequal. In addition, there are some issues to be resolved. The result of this situation may be a reduction in the series. The management of Severnaya Verf believes that the “Thunder” and “Agile” corvettes under construction may be the last representatives of the series. They will be completed using the existing stock of imported components and domestic products, while the fate of the remaining ships of the order will be different.


Layout of the project 20385 corvette. Photo Bastion-karpenko.ru


According to reports, it was originally planned to build eight corvettes project 20385. Due to existing problems, the construction of such ships will be terminated. However, the fleet will not remain without new corvettes. It is alleged that new ships will be built on the project 20380. Such ships have a number of differences from the “Thundering” and “Agile”, the main difference being the use of only domestic components.

21 May RIA Novosti has published an interview with Oleg Shumakov, general director of the Yantar shipbuilding plant. From this material, some details of the current situation in military shipbuilding have become known, as well as the status of the 11356 project. Currently, the Yantar plant is building six frigates of the 11356 project in the interests of the Black Sea Fleet. For political reasons, this project also faced a shortage of necessary components.

According to O. Shumakov, the situation with frigates looks like this. The Yantar plant is completing work on the construction of the lead ship of the series. The frigate "Admiral Grigorovich" was put to the test. If the work does not face serious difficulties, then in August the ship will be handed over to the fleet. The second ship, the Admiral Essen, is currently undergoing mooring trials. It is planned to transfer it to the customer at the end of the year. "Admiral Makarov" under the plan should be transferred to the Navy in March next year, but its construction was faced with some problems related to the supply of equipment.


Frigates under construction, pr. 11356 (from left to right): "Admiral Butakov", "Admiral Makarov" and "Admiral Istomin". Photo Forums.airbase.ru, user oleg12226


The situation with the fourth, fifth and sixth ships of the series is much more complicated. Plant "Yantar" currently does not have the necessary set of units, primarily engines. For this reason, the construction of three frigates is likely to take longer. At the same time, O. Shumakov noted that the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt had already built the necessary units for the fourth ship of the 11356 project, but for political reasons cannot transfer them to the customer.

To resolve the situation, the Yantar plant prepared a package of documents for filing a claim. The Ukrainian enterprise, in turn, notified the Russian partners of the impossibility of continuing the execution of the contract for reasons of force majeure. As a result, the contract for the supply of engines is not terminated, but its execution is still suspended indefinitely.

In connection with the current situation in the field of shipbuilding and the course of import substitution, some work is being carried out at domestic enterprises. According to the general director of Yantar, NPO Saturn, which has extensive experience in this field, can be engaged in the development of new gas-turbine engines for ships. However, it will take some time to create a project and set up production. The delay in the delivery of ships O. Shumakov estimated at about two years.

In the last days of May, problems with the construction of new ships were confirmed by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin. He recalled that it was impossible to obtain ship engines produced at Ukrainian enterprises. At the same time, the Deputy Prime Minister noted that an import substitution program is currently being implemented, the goal of which is to master the production of all the necessary components at Russian enterprises. So, in the case of components made in Ukraine we are talking about 186 types of products that now have to be made independently.

Currently, within the framework of the current import substitution program, Russian enterprises are preparing to master the production of gas turbine power plants for ships. In accordance with current plans, production of such products will begin by the end of 2017, and in 18, the industry will switch to full-scale serial production of new engines.


Frigate under construction pr. 11356 "Admiral Essen". Photo Bastion-karpenko.ru.


3 June D. Rogozin clarified that problems with the supply of imported products relate only to some ships. Construction of the remaining equipment for the navy continues in accordance with the plans. The vice-premier primarily meant the frigates of the 11356 project. At the same time, as it is now known, political differences also hit the construction of the 20385 project corvettes.

It should be noted that some details of equipping ships under construction with Russian-made engines are already known. In early May, Valery Ryzhkov, chief designer of the Kolomna Plant, in an interview with the Flotprom portal, revealed some details of the upcoming import substitution. According to V. Ryzhkov, the enterprise is engaged in the adaptation of its developments for use on the 20385 project ships. Thus, the corvettes "Gremyashchy" and "Agile", as well as the ships of the 20380 project planned for construction, will receive domestic Kolomna-made engines.

Later it became known that Severnaya Verf ordered the Kolomna Plant eight main power plants of the 1DDA-12000 type. These products are built according to the CODAD scheme (diesel-diesel unit) and are equipped with two 16D49 engines with an 6 power in thousand hp. In addition, the installation includes reverse-gear transmission PPD-12000 and a number of other equipment. New ships of the 20385 and 20380 projects will receive two such installations.

The main power plants of Kolomna production will have to replace units ordered from the German company MTU. In connection with the introduction of sanctions against Russia, such an order became impossible. The way out of this situation was the order of domestic units.

There is information about the use of Kolomna products. Two sets of 1DDA-12000 will be installed on the 20385 “Rattling” and “Agile” corvettes (the serial numbers are 1005 and 1006, respectively). The remaining units will be used in the construction of the 20380 “Retivy” (No. 1007) and “Strict” (# 1008) project ships. The construction of all four corvettes is carried out by the Severnaya Verf plant. According to the plans, all the necessary units will be delivered in 2016-17. In the next year’s 3 quarter, the Kolomna Plant will hand over installations for the Gremyashchy ship, and in the 4 quarter, for the Retivo. In June, the 2017 of the year will be delivered engines for order number 1008, and the "agile" will have to wait for the power plant until September 17-th.

The lack of engines and the prospects of military shipbuilding
Power installation 1DDA-12000. Figure Bmpd.livejournal.com


Thus, the construction of ships of the project 20385 / 20380 noticeably delayed, but the fleet will still receive them. What the consequences of such a replacement of the main power plants will be is not yet known. It is possible that the use of new engines will affect the various characteristics of the corvettes. However, in this case, the Russian Navy will still receive new ships, even if with less high performance. An alternative in this situation is the complete halt of construction and, as a result, the absence of new ships in the fleet.

The situation with the lack of the necessary foreign engines for corvettes of 20385 and 20380 projects has been partially resolved, although it will take some time to produce our own power plants. The situation with power plants for the frigates of the project 11356 at the moment looks much more complicated. Domestic gas turbine engines for such ships will appear no earlier than 2017 of the year, which will lead to a noticeable shift in the terms of their delivery to the fleet. It should be noted that the construction of the fourth and fifth ships is carried out in accordance with the schedule. Thus, the new frigates, most likely, will have to stand idle for several years in the unfinished form.

The fourth frigate of the 11356 project, the Admiral Butakov, was laid on July 12 of the year 2013. By the end of last year, the construction of the hull and its equipment with various units and systems were completed. As far as can be judged from the available information, at the present time only the absence of a power plant hinders the continuation of construction. The supply of the necessary products of Ukrainian production is disrupted, because of which the approximate dates for the continuation of work and launching the ship into the water have not yet been determined.

The fifth ship of the series should be the Admiral Istomin, laid down on November 15 2013 of the year. The construction of the hull has already been completed and is being saturated. In April, information appeared about the suspension of work in the engine room. Installation of various units in the engine room can only begin after the problem with the main power plant is solved. To continue the work, it is necessary to know which units will be mounted in the engine room, to clarify their dimensions, etc. Thus, the construction of "Admiral Istomin" in the foreseeable future may stop due to problems with the engine room.

The sixth frigate project 11356 has not yet been laid. Nevertheless, the preparation for construction is already in full swing. In addition, the name of the ship “Admiral Kornilov” became public. Due to problems with the delivery of imported components, the customer, represented by the Ministry of Defense, decided to suspend the construction of the sixth ship of the series. Prepared units and structures are temporarily suspended due to the impossibility of starting construction.

From recent reports by enterprises, the Ministry of Defense and the press, it follows that the construction of two new types of ships, depending on the supply of foreign components, is likely to be suspended for some time. The problem with the engines for the ships of the 20385 and 20380 projects was partially solved by the power plants of Kolomna production. Now you need to deal with the problems of the frigates project 11356. In the context of the latter, only the possible delivery times of the required domestic production units are mentioned.


Corvette "Stereguschy" - the lead ship of the pr. 20380


The situation in the military shipbuilding situation looks extremely bad. But it may look even worse in the light of offers from past years. Back in 2009, a program was launched to localize the production of ship power plants. The successful implementation of such a program allowed by the middle of the tenths to abandon the purchase of engines and other units of foreign production. However, the implementation of the plans was associated with a lot of problems. As a result, at the moment shipyards are still dependent on foreign suppliers, and the construction of some types of ships can stop completely for an indefinite period.

If all the updated plans can be implemented in a timely manner, the new ships of several types that will serve as part of the Northern, Black Sea, Baltic and Pacific fleets will be able to begin service only in 2017-18 years. Nevertheless, in such a sad situation you can find positive moments. First, the Russian Navy, albeit with a delay, will receive new ships. The second advantage of the situation is that it is an excellent incentive for the industry. To fulfill all existing orders, Russian enterprises will have to catch up and master the production of the necessary power plants. Thus, there is still a reason for optimism, but the results of the current situation will become known only in a few years.


On the materials of the sites:
http://ria.ru/
http://flotprom.ru/
http://svpressa.ru/
http://oborona.ru/
http://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
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  1. Kibalchish
    Kibalchish 4 June 2015 05: 44 New
    46
    My opinion remains the same: engines should be taken from ukrov along with the areas in which they are located.
    1. APASUS
      APASUS 4 June 2015 06: 59 New
      23
      Quote: Kibalchish
      My opinion remains the same: engines should be taken from ukrov along with the areas in which they are located.

      Units such as engines must be produced on their own so as not to get into a puddle again.
      For such a plant, one or two shells will be enough to stop production for ever. After the battles in the shops of the plant, there will still be money to invest.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 4 June 2015 07: 49 New
        12
        Quote: APASUS
        Units such as engines must be produced on their own so as not to get into a puddle again.

        This is of course true, but what should we do now? At the shipyards, work began due to the lack of supplies of power plants. We will be able to switch to "our own" in 18-19 goda. And what to do before that? I really hope that while we master the production of engines for ships, our functionaries will figure out how to get these same power units NOW.
        1. anip
          anip 4 June 2015 08: 45 New
          10
          Quote: NEXUS
          I really hope that while we are developing the production of engines for ships, our functionaries will figure out how to get these very power units NOW.

          And what have all these functionaries been doing under the guidance of the guarantor since 2000? And where did the guarantor look and think about all these 15 years?
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 4 June 2015 09: 03 New
            10
            Quote: anip
            And where did the guarantor look and think about all these 15 years?

            A man, HE is just a man, not the Lord God. I would look at you, wherever you look, sitting in his chair.
            There is a problem, they are solving it and they are sure to solve it. No hysteria is needed.
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 4 June 2015 09: 12 New
              10
              Quote: NEXUS
              OH just a man

              No, he is more than a man (must be more), such a position.
              1. Sibiriya
                Sibiriya 4 June 2015 12: 17 New
                -1
                The main problem of gas turbines is that they are lagging behind the speed of nuclear powered ships, constant work at the limit because of which the boilers burn out and after each trip they get up for repairs. There are wonderful new generation reactors plus, autonomy is much more, which is what the ocean fleet needs
                1. pr 627
                  pr 627 4 June 2015 15: 26 New
                  +2
                  What kind of nonsense?
                  1. Sibiriya
                    Sibiriya 5 June 2015 17: 01 New
                    -3
                    once again I want to repeat for inland waters and gas turbines - low mileage, for the ocean - and Russia is undoubtedly an ocean power
                2. Valery Valery
                  Valery Valery 4 June 2015 16: 41 New
                  +7
                  Gas turbines and boilers are two different things. Turbine-kerosene, fuel oil boiler. Fuel oil is really bad. Kerosene is good. The atom is better, but only for surface ships of large displacement. More than 25000 tons. We really have two such large ships - Peter the Great (atomic) and A. Kuznetsov (alas, fuel oil).
                  Sincerely.
                  1. Sibiriya
                    Sibiriya 5 June 2015 21: 08 New
                    0
                    Gas turbine units differ in that the main engine in them is a gas turbine (gas turbine engine), the working fluid for which it is prepared in the combustion chamber. Unlike vocational schools for gas turbines, a bulky steam boiler is not required. As a result, a gas turbine engine is compact and lightweight with high power. This quality of the gas turbine engine allows its use in the composition of the SEU quite efficiently, despite the lower cost-effectiveness. However, due to the high rotational speed of the GTE rotor, its power cannot be transmitted directly to the ship’s shaft shaft and therefore it is necessary to use intermediate power transmissions (gear, hydraulic or combined) with a decrease in the number of revolutions. The gases leaving the gas turbine engine have a high temperature (450 ... 550ºС), and their quantity is very significant. This is used to produce water vapor in a recovery boiler with the subsequent use of steam to drive a steam turbine without additional fuel costs. The result is a combined gas and steam turbine unit (GTU) or GTU with a heat recovery circuit. In addition, a gas turbine engine can be used as a afterburner to achieve maximum speed in an SEU with a vocational school or diesel installation.
                    This is for the gifted about what kind of boilers burn
                3. Vasek Trubachev
                  Vasek Trubachev 15 June 2015 15: 08 New
                  0
                  Steam turbine installations did have boilers, but this technology for military shipbuilding was preserved only for nuclear-powered ships, and died out in its pure form along with ships like Novik. Gas turbine engines have no "boilers", they have combustion chambers.
            2. saag
              saag 4 June 2015 11: 20 New
              +9
              Quote: NEXUS
              A man, HE is just a man, not the Lord God. I would look at you, where would you look, sitting in his chair

              Primakov, when the 1998 crisis struck, he did everything much faster (he supported the industry of the Russian Federation), and this being just a prime minister
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 4 June 2015 16: 55 New
                +1
                Quote: saag
                Primakov, when the 1998 crisis struck, he made everything much faster (he supported the industry of the Russian Federation)

                In the 98th there was neither a complete rearmament of the army and navy, nor new equipment, nor exercises almost every day, nor sanctions, nor import substitution, nor the Vostochny cosmodrome, etc. All this takes money. When Primakov was in 98, how much enterprises worked for the defense industry?
                It is important that they do and do not whine that everything is bad, but work and solve problematic issues. And I am sure that they will also solve these engines.
          2. tilovaykrisa
            tilovaykrisa 4 June 2015 11: 36 New
            0
            Buy from Israel or
            China's Iranians Indians what choice or not, do not buy so order the construction
          3. Evgeny_Lev
            Evgeny_Lev 4 June 2015 15: 47 New
            -3
            Well, as I understand it, 15 years ago, did you know that there would be such a thrash in Ukraine?
        2. APASUS
          APASUS 4 June 2015 19: 26 New
          +7
          Quote: NEXUS
          Quote: APASUS
          Units such as engines must be produced on their own so as not to get into a puddle again.

          This is of course true, but what should we do now? At the shipyards, work began due to the lack of supplies of power plants. We will be able to switch to "our own" in 18-19 goda. And what to do before that? I really hope that while we master the production of engines for ships, our functionaries will figure out how to get these same power units NOW.

          In our world, only MTU produces engines?
          In the world there are enough countries with licenses, with their own developments, the same China, South Korea. I think, with a certain skill of lawyers, you could buy from MTU, you just have to drag engines for example to South Africa or Brazil, and from there to Russia.
          But no, it’s necessary to inflate an entire epic with overcoming obstacles created by one’s own hands. In fact, one can see the ears of incompetence or malicious intent, with the desire to cash in, I don’t see another option
    2. qwert
      qwert 4 June 2015 07: 23 New
      35
      Or maybe Zhirinovsky is still right when he says that it’s not the case when some officials have a salary of 1 000 000 rubles per day. Maybe it’s worth all these top managers to put on a normal salary, and give money to the developers of the same turbines? Well, someone will not buy another yacht or a villa in Nice, but the time for the development and implementation of the necessary machines will be reduced by half.
      1. bromine
        bromine 4 June 2015 08: 34 New
        20
        I strongly support it. Money needs to be paid to specific developers, engineers and technologists. It is necessary to recall the Soviet times, when special teams were created to solve important strategic problems, including with the participation of several republics. So the development of domestic thermal protection for aircraft, carried out by order of Trud (Samara) and Saturn (Lytkarino), was developed from the project to the successful bench tests in 2 years. According to the Swiss specialists "Sulzer-Metko", they achieved such results within 10 years.
        1. THE_SEAL
          THE_SEAL 5 June 2015 14: 04 New
          +1
          At the Admiralty Shipyards hangs a vacancy - an engineer-designer of the SEU - a salary of 25 tr Well, what are they going to design with such salaries?
      2. anip
        anip 4 June 2015 08: 48 New
        10
        Quote: qwert
        Or maybe Zhirinovsky is still right when he says that it’s not the case when some officials have a salary of 1 rubles a day. Maybe it’s worth all these top managers to put on a normal salary, and give money to the developers of the same turbines?

        What do you mean ??? This is undermining the foundations of Putin's rule. And who said that "these top managers" have an abnormal salary? In my opinion, it is even very normal, although in their opinion (and in the opinion of the guarantor) it still does not reach normal.
        1. Fin
          Fin 4 June 2015 10: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: anip
          Yes, what are you ??? This is undermining the foundations of Putin's rule.

          In the morning before der.ma on the fan !!! Start the morning with a spit in GDP and the day is a success !!! Heart balm, probably nice?
          1. THE_SEAL
            THE_SEAL 5 June 2015 14: 05 New
            +1
            Not a spit, but constructive criticism. Ass licking a superior, my friend, is not respect.
          2. THE_SEAL
            THE_SEAL 5 June 2015 14: 08 New
            +1
            Until we change the bonus system for the rank-and-file, rather than the directors, nothing will be normal with us. And the GDP is simply obliged to influence this. In leading corporations, top management really fulfills their salary, so they are the engine of progress, not us.
        2. goose
          goose 4 June 2015 12: 49 New
          +8
          Unfortunately, in our business the normal situation of directorate salaries is skewed: with a salary of 10 employees of 35-40 thousand each, the director may well have a salary of 1 million. Officials just look this way and do not want to get fewer directors in the business.
          And this despite the wretchedness of our modern directorial corps.
      3. brn521
        brn521 4 June 2015 12: 31 New
        +4
        Quote: qwert
        Maybe all these top managers should be put on a normal salary, and give money to the developers of the same turbines?

        Then among the developers of turbines will appear the same officials with the same salary. The system has already settled down, where money appears, the same mechanism for their development is triggered there.
      4. ARES623
        ARES623 4 June 2015 14: 47 New
        +4
        Quote: qwert
        Or maybe Zhirinovsky is still right when he says that it’s not the case when some officials have a salary of 1 rubles a day. Maybe it’s worth all these top managers to put on a normal salary, and give money to the developers of the same turbines?

        Kaby Zhirinovsky also did something useful, he would not have a price. Otherwise, it’s easier to carry than a bag. Pravdorub horseradish.
    3. Shiva83483
      Shiva83483 4 June 2015 07: 47 New
      +2
      I support, give hapaned ....
    4. grandson of Perun
      grandson of Perun 4 June 2015 08: 45 New
      +7
      My opinion remains the same: engines should be taken from ukrov along with the areas in which they are located.

      Ready-made engines or their production?
      For the sake of a few ready to conduct a military operation, a little expensive.
      For the sake of production, we still need to look at the state of production at present. There was information that technological equipment from factories was exported to the west of the Outskirts. It may happen that it’s easier and faster to do it ourselves than to restore their plants ...
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 18 October 2020 09: 31 New
        0
        And then what?
        Since 2014, economic growth has fallen 2+ times.
        Open military aggression will lead to much more serious long-term consequences. Not to mention the dead.
    5. Gromm
      Gromm 4 June 2015 08: 52 New
      +4
      Do not select but return as it's all ours!
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 18 October 2020 09: 31 New
        0
        What's ours? Territory of Ingushetia in 1900?
    6. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 June 2015 09: 04 New
      +2
      Quote: Kibalchish
      engines should be selected from ukrov along with the areas in which they are located.

      "Select" is somehow not in tune with your proposed methods! It was necessary to write - "score the arrow, run over and squeeze out".
      1. captain
        captain 4 June 2015 10: 26 New
        +9
        The pathological greed of our businessmen and the manic ability to kick back our officials led to this situation. If there are people, then he remembers how Motor Sich wanted to build an aircraft engine plant in Kazan and was not given it (three years ago), he will understand what they write here.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 4 June 2015 10: 50 New
          +8
          Quote: captain
          aircraft engine plant in Kazanе

          Kazan is a small cauldron (Turkic word). The whole plant will not enter the boiler, even a large one!
          1. Vasya Vassin
            Vasya Vassin 8 September 2017 11: 49 New
            0
            Not funny. And if this is true, as was said, then it becomes very sad.
            Just some kind of wrecking of these officials. I must say the same situation in our city. Real production at each turn of the stick is inserted into the wheels. For ten years there have been three projects for opening a new production in our town. The head of the district, bald, such a rollback requested that people scratch his head and leave. In the city, besides trade, there’s not a damn thing, one income is from grain, nothing develops except for hairdressers, taxis and car washes ... Creatures in power in one word.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 18 October 2020 09: 32 New
              0
              Not creatures, but United Russia and "patriots" ..
    7. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 June 2015 12: 02 New
      +5
      In other words, the Navy's rearmament program until 2020 is disrupted.
    8. Aleksiy
      Aleksiy 4 June 2015 20: 39 New
      +1
      A year ago, they could, and now that's it, the train left. More things, less partners to look at the fost, then it will be good.
  2. Army1
    Army1 4 June 2015 06: 02 New
    +4
    It’s better to have your own. As they say, rely only on yourself. Break through
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 June 2015 16: 37 New
      +2
      Quote: Army1
      It’s better to have your own. As they say, rely only on yourself. Break through

      Break through, really beautiful? -
  3. ImPerts
    ImPerts 4 June 2015 06: 04 New
    +9
    On the one hand, it’s a pity that construction is slowing down. But really, there is a plus. No one would be in a hurry to establish the production of gas control systems without such a kick.
    There would be no happiness, but misfortune helped)))
  4. Tatar 174
    Tatar 174 4 June 2015 06: 20 New
    +6
    And when these engines were ordered to Ukraine, what were you thinking about?
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 4 June 2015 08: 11 New
      19
      Depends on what? If according to 11356 - then friendship is chewing gum, Fedorych on the throne, now Kazakhstan, Belarus, Russia will enter the Single Space.

      This is not done yesterday or even a year ago. And in general, even under Yushchenko Zorya regularly delivered everything.

      It is time.

      Two - a single center for turbine engineering in the USSR of such power - Zorya. Therefore, we must write what Brezhnev thought and Khrushchev.

      Three - to create an industry on the knee will not work. In the world, for example, there are only 3 parent enterprises developing and building ship turbines of the latest generation (for 11356 this is the previous generation) - Zorya-Saturn, Rolls-Royce and General Electric. And yes, without Saturn Zorya will be mastered only by the previous generation (for 11356 for example). But, the entire production complex, a stand for testing turbines - only at Zora is.

      Back in 2009, they began to make their own stand for ship turbines. They planned to put it into operation in Rybinsk by 2020. Now they want to start limited operation before the end of the 2017 year. Without a stand, even a fully prepared and assembled turbine will not be accepted by the Navy. With production - the parts that are the most complex in the hot part are made by Rybinsk. But everything else was done at Zora. Need a plant - chose the Ufa turbine Vekselberg. Let's see how they will master there. The choice is rather unusual, to say the least.

      The plan is the first delivery to the stand by the end of the 2017 of the year, delivery of the Navy by the end of the 2018 of the year. The first unit.
      1. bromine
        bromine 4 June 2015 08: 38 New
        +5
        Vekselberg. This is not the citizen who was set to look over the city of Sochi, and then removed for excessive cutting dough for the Olympics?
        1. feokot1982
          feokot1982 4 June 2015 18: 21 New
          +1
          No, that was Vaenstock.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 4 June 2015 12: 21 New
        +9
        Quote: donavi49
        And yes, without Saturn Zorya will be mastered only by the previous generation (for 11356 for example). But, the entire production complex, a stand for testing turbines - only at Zora is.

        So you need not hold the World Cup, WHICH OUR TEAM JUST DOES NOT DESERVE, but build production, stands, everything you need.
      3. Bayonet
        Bayonet 4 June 2015 16: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: donavi49
        Two - a single center for turbine engineering in the USSR of such power - Zorya.

        It’s not wise to put all your eggs in one basket! Has the war taught anything?
    2. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 June 2015 16: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: Tatar 174
      And when these engines were ordered to Ukraine, what were you thinking about?

      And what is there to think about - we will buy the work in the offices (offices)! Bought - sold, but why do your own, "horses die from work!" So we finished ...am
  5. mark1
    mark1 4 June 2015 06: 27 New
    -1
    We need to negotiate with China. If we are "brothers forever" it would not be bad to urgently make for us ("brothers") three sets of SUs for pr 11356 from the existing stock (China has a Ukrainian license and design documentation, the technologies have been successfully mastered).
    For diesel engines, it is probably possible to use the M-507 (Zvezda plant) - name the modification, for example, project 20385.1
    1. Professor
      Professor 4 June 2015 07: 01 New
      +4
      Quote: mark1
      China has a Ukrainian license and CD, technology successfully mastered

      1. License is not a property right.
      2. Not successful. To this day, the Chinese are buying turbines from YuTZ.
      1. mark1
        mark1 4 June 2015 07: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        1. License is not a property right

        When it confused someone, especially China. Two extra bolts, one hole in the bed and the original coloring - and here’s the finished independent Chinese development.
        Quote: Professor
        2. Not successful. To this day, the Chinese are buying turbines from YuTZ.

        But they also produce fish without fish and cancer, especially since 60% of the components are Russian.
        1. Professor
          Professor 4 June 2015 07: 38 New
          +1
          They produce, but why do you think that the quality of Chinese ship turbines is better than the quality of Chinese aircraft turbines? The same Iran buys turbines in Ukraine, and not from China.
          1. mark1
            mark1 4 June 2015 08: 16 New
            +7
            Quote: Professor
            They produce, but why do you think that the quality of Chinese ship turbines is better than the quality of Chinese aircraft turbines? The same Iran buys turbines in Ukraine, and not from China.

            The question, after all, is no longer where the turbines are better, but how to quickly get out of that city ... into which we climbed so frivolously. The Chinese are walking with these SUs and we are walking. Diesel 10D49 are less reliable than MTU but we come back to them because time is more expensive and in the case of gas turbines for 11356 there could be the same logic.
            1. Professor
              Professor 4 June 2015 09: 02 New
              -12
              Quote: mark1
              The question, after all, is no longer where the turbines are better, but how to quickly get out of that city ... into which we climbed so frivolously.

              There is always a choice. laughing



              1. silver_roman
                silver_roman 4 June 2015 11: 31 New
                12
                You know, I recently decided on a "cruel" adventure in a commentary for one article on VO: I criticized a certain decision of Putin (I will not go into details) for which I received another warning from the esteemed Duke.
                The drugs indicated that the phrase "Fat minus Putin" was the result of the warning.
                For the last picture, the same respected Duke will get you out of the ground even at the end of the world. Be carefull lol

                And to be honest, sometimes the decisions of the moderators are extremely incomprehensible. I would advise each site rule to assign a number to which Moder would refer. when sending alerts.
              2. goose
                goose 4 June 2015 12: 53 New
                +1
                There are still diesels, but then the displacement will be 500 tons more, the speed of the unit is 3 lower. The cost of a new ship is 20% higher and the cost of operation is 1,5 times lower. There is a compromise.
              3. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 4 June 2015 13: 19 New
                +2
                Quote: Professor
                The choice is always

                Of course you can have fun, but the Russians will make their own turbines and the Ukrainians will get a competitor.
                The one who laughs last laughs well.
                Somewhere in faraway China
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 18 October 2020 11: 47 New
                  0
                  Russians will make their own turbines and Ukrainians will get a competitor.

                  According to the principle, if only they were. The Russians make cars at AvtoVAZ, the biggest competitor to Volkswagen in the world? So it is with turbines. There will be, but worse, for themselves. Maybe someday it will be possible to reach the level, but this is not 5 or 10 years.
                  1. mihail_mihail0620
                    mihail_mihail0620 19 October 2020 21: 58 New
                    0
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    The Russians make cars at AvtoVAZ, the biggest competitor to Volkswagen in the world?

                    If we consider the countries of the so-called CIS, then Volkswagen is a big competitor, in Western Europe there is a small competitor.
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    So it is with turbines. There will be, but worse, for themselves.

                    The Severnaya Verf shipyard received the first gas turbine units produced by UEC-Saturn for the frigates of project 22350 under construction, Deputy Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Alexei Krivoruchko announced this during a visit to the shipyard on February 12, 2019.

                    Time will tell how much worse or better the Ukrainian ones.
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Maybe someday it will be possible to reach the level, but this is not 5 or 10 years.

                    I will assume that at the moment they are hardly inferior to the Ukrainian ones.
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 20 October 2020 07: 56 New
                      0
                      If we consider the countries of the so-called CIS,

                      Small market, compared to the EU (and even more so all over the world).
                      Time will tell how much worse or better the Ukrainian ones.

                      I will assume that at the moment they are hardly inferior to the Ukrainian ones.

                      You can assume anything, for example, that they are superior to General Electric or Rolls-Royce.
                      Time will show, but the same diesels are inferior to MTU (resource, reliability).
                      But they are, there will simply be less overhaul period, more often excesses.
                      1. mihail_mihail0620
                        mihail_mihail0620 20 October 2020 19: 52 New
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        but the same diesels are inferior to MTU

                        Quote: 3danimal
                        You can assume anything, for example, that they are superior to General Electric or Rolls-Royce.

                        Well, judging by the breakdowns on the Zumwalt destroyers and the Daring Rolls-Royce destroyers, it is not without a flaw.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Time will show, but the same diesels are inferior to MTU (resource, reliability).
                        But they are, there will simply be less overhaul period, more often excesses.

                        What to do, they concede.
                        If everything goes well at Saturn with turbines, then export ships to India, Vietnam for turbines will pass by Ukraine, plus what Russia is building for itself, Zora will not get better from this.
    2. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 June 2015 17: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: mark1
      We need to negotiate with China. If we are "brothers forever"

      In the fifties there were "brothers forever", in the sixties they shot at each other (Damansky) were preparing for war. Now again "brothers forever", and what will happen tomorrow? winked
    3. 3danimal
      3danimal 18 October 2020 11: 44 New
      0
      If we are "brothers forever"

      Do you yourself believe that? They certainly don't consider us equal. Businessmen, and we are ten times less of them in terms of economy. (Japanese at six).
  6. exalex2
    exalex2 4 June 2015 06: 42 New
    14
    Quote: mark1
    It is necessary to negotiate with China

    Played on the "pipe" .. Ruined production, destroyed everything to which the playful and corrupt pens reached out and now they are looking for "extreme" ones. Tomorrow the uncle will come, he will build everything, set it up and begin to produce kaaak .. And the "members of the government" in the Chapter will still sit on the "pipe", move the clock, rename and try to talk about "modernization", "innovation", "import substitution "," Skolkovo ", the Olympics," football "and looking longingly at the Pipe .. Can a pipeline be extended to Australia or" round the world "at once ?. Why build factories?
    1. mark1
      mark1 4 June 2015 07: 08 New
      +5
      For exalex2. "Who is to blame" we all know now it is necessary to decide "what to do" (not in relation to the former and current government officials, everyone knows what to do with them, but in the decision specific problem discussed above)
      1. exalex2
        exalex2 4 June 2015 07: 14 New
        -1
        Quote: mark1
        and in solving the specific problem discussed above

        Go to the ELECTIONS ..
        1. mark1
          mark1 4 June 2015 08: 29 New
          +6
          Quote: exalex2
          Go to the ELECTIONS ..

          I go, my friend, I go ... There would be plenty to choose from. Now, if the righteous nimbus glowed, and the crooks grew horns ... And only the muzzle is thick and the eyes are cunning, and everyone has the right speech.
          1. exalex2
            exalex2 4 June 2015 18: 12 New
            -1
            Quote: mark1
            There would be plenty to choose from.

            You need to look not by words, but by deeds .. And right away everything is clear and understandable .. Well, since there are 25 million and 000 cases, there are no jobs either. There remains one option. Populism is too much to say.
      2. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 4 June 2015 09: 30 New
        +2
        Quote: mark1
        "Who is to blame" we all know now it is necessary to decide "what to do

        These eccentrics are still there, only castling.
        Quote: mark1
        . There would be plenty to choose from.
        The situation is artificially created, as is the opposition. A banal example is the state funding of ECHO in Moscow. Say - criticize offer? I will not offer, I do not see anyone to offer, as well as you. hi
    2. D-Master
      D-Master 4 June 2015 07: 14 New
      16
      You, my friend, are fundamentally wrong, and as usual you mix long with sour. The division of production was established in the USSR, and gas turbine propulsion systems were developed from the 50s in Nikolaev at the Zorya plant. There was still small production in Rybinsk, but for ships of smaller tonnage. After the collapse of the USSR, the fleet was not replenished for a very long time and, as a result, no factories were built. When the revival of the fleet began, they naturally turned to Ukraine, among other things, which until recently was part of the CIS, which possessed the technology inherited from the USSR. In fact, we bought our own from ourselves. As for pipelines, we could not build pipelines until the 80s. There was no steel and did not know how to roll large-diameter pipes. And there were no substations with pumps. And now we have learned and substituted import. And why is Russia shameful to sell oil and gas? Is the Netherlands in Great Britain and Norway in the order of things ?. Before you write, learn the mat part of the Young man.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 4 June 2015 10: 02 New
        12
        Quote: D-Master
        And the Netherlands of Great Britain and Norway in the order of things ?.

        No one talks about the viciousness of oil sales AT ALL. You can and should sell, but the money received from the sale should not be invested in the GKO of the USA and the EU, but in the development of your own country. All air carriers fly 90% on Boeing and Airbuses, minibuses on the streets are all imported, road equipment is either Caterpillar or JCB. At the worst, Belarus. I don’t see four in my city, I'm sorry. It is necessary to oblige ALL companies engaged in state budget orders to have at least 80% of domestic equipment in their fleet.
        Further. At the mention of Skolkov or Rusnano, most have only a skeptical smirk, because costs with the results of these enterprises are not comparable. A couple of bosses need to be planted, but not for sure. request Do not help say? In Togliatti, several years ago, two doctors were put in a medical camp for a bribe. So, after that, even for all paid (planned operations) patients, at discharge they didn’t take a dime. True, the charge did not last long, 3-4 months, but nonetheless.
        Agriculture is generally a sore subject, grain has risen in price along with the dollar, but after the fall in the exchange rate, the price of grain has not fallen. And not only the price of bread depends on the price of grain, it is also feed, i.e. meat, milk, poultry, eggs. Is it possible to plant the chairman of the grain union, so as not to hang noodles in the media about the need to raise grain prices. Goryuchka rose in price? no. Z \ P workers raised? Recognized, did not raise.
        Why should the price of the domestic market equal the world? Everything, not just grain. Why should we focus on imports first? We succeed - give your wife to uncle, and he .... No.
        P.S. Excuse me for scooping up everything, but the reasons for everything I have listed are the same as for problems with diesel engines in the fleet. And the only solution for them is landing friends. hi
    3. qwert
      qwert 4 June 2015 07: 26 New
      +3
      right things say comrade exalex2 hi
      But only under capitalism, profit comes first. In order to be smart and honest, you need to change the system. IMHO.
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 4 June 2015 09: 13 New
        0
        only under capitalism, profit comes first. In order to be smart and honest, you need to change the system. [/ quote]
        And then what will happen? There will be no profit, and will we work "wisely" at a loss? recourse
  7. blizart
    blizart 4 June 2015 07: 08 New
    +6
    Looking back at our common past, I now more clearly understand the general tone of relations between Russians and Ukrainians (friendly and ironic Russians and expectant Ukrainians). It's just that the people kept in their memory all these Rada, ruins and peremogs, all these worries from a sly, loving neighbor's promises, but over the years they forgave and believed that it could be otherwise. Today, Ukrainians have begun a new history of the Slavic "zapad", to refresh the memory of Russians, so to speak. If they would give me your "White Book" I wrote there in Chinese letters: "God, how you let us ALL down!" And with engines too
  8. Cosmos1987
    Cosmos1987 4 June 2015 07: 09 New
    +2
    In Russia, a lot of engine-building plants, really can’t in single quantities master the engines needed for the fleet, it is certainly expensive, but it’s their own, or they don’t want to, or no brains ???? Of course, you can shout as much as you like about nanotechnology, artificial intelligence by the year 20, about the lunar base by the year 30, a big woman, make the necessary engines and learn how to rivet microcircuits, and not import from China.
    1. Doktor-2
      Doktor-2 4 June 2015 07: 26 New
      10
      Wikipedia, of course, knows a lot, but have you seen those plants? I don’t know about the others, but from the "Altai Motor Plant" only horns remained, even without legs. All the hulls are sold to private traders and large shopping centers, they do not build engines there, but traders dart around. Yes, and that grain that remained every now and then for the forced "vacation" goes - there are no orders, and the engineers and designers there probably have been blown away a long time ago ...
      1. padded jacket
        padded jacket 4 June 2015 12: 28 New
        +1
        Quote: DokTor-2
        I don’t know about the others, but from the "Altai Motor Plant" only horns remained, even without legs

        For the sake of interest, I looked at the site of Altai Motor Plant OJSC
        located at: http://amz.tplants.com/en/company/review/
        if you believe him, the plant is alive, working and producing various products:
        Altai Motor Plant OJSC is one of the leaders in Russian engine building.
        The decision to create a new plant in the city of Barnaul was made in May 1955. The first products were reapers and stackers for trailed combines. Since 1958, the plant was renamed Altai Motor and began to produce 4-cylinder diesel engines for the Krasnoyarsk combine plant. In 1976, the plant was awarded the Order of the Red Banner of Labor for success in completing a variety of equipment with modern engines.
        Main products: A-41SI, A-01MKSI, A-01MSI, D442-52, D 442-59, D-3045, D442 VSI diesel engines for tractors, loaders, combines, diesel-electric stations and steel castings for third-party customers .
        The company is systematically updating production facilities. Among other equipment, a machining center for manufacturing tooling and processing machines from EWAG (Switzerland) were recently acquired. The quality management system in 2007 was certified for compliance with the requirements of ISO 9001-2001.

        So here someone is obviously lying to us either the website of Altai Motor Plant OJSC or a user of DokTor-2.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 June 2015 07: 33 New
      11
      Quote: Cosmos1987
      In Russia, a lot of engine-building plants

      Having settled, well, at least take a look at what these plants do. For example, Zavolzhsky Motor - it has the production of internal combustion engines from 2,2 to 4, 67 liters. What magic miracle will he make for you ship gas turbine engines? Is the difference between an automobile internal combustion engine and a gas turbine plant unclear?
      This production must be done from scratch. And yes - it was necessary to build it a long time ago, instead of buying all sorts of Mistrals.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 June 2015 09: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Cosmos1987
      In Russia, a lot of engine-building factories,

      We need powerful marine engines, not KAMAZ or the Chelyabinsk tractor! Not to mention gas turbines, they are not on your list.
    5. Ostwald
      Ostwald 4 June 2015 14: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Cosmos1987
      In Russia, a bunch of engine-building factories, really can’t master the engines necessary for the fleet in single quantities ... make the necessary engines and learn how to rivet microcircuits, and not import them from China.

      In addition to the Kolomensky D49, almost nothing is produced for mainline diesel locomotives and ships in Russia. Yes, and the D49 is not enough to update the railway locomotives, and therefore the Ministry of Railways is developing various projects of diesel locomotives with foreign diesel engines General-Motors, MTU Koperpiller and more. Sometimes, artificially limiting the capacity of the Zh-M diesel engine due to the lack of cooling capacity of the refrigeration chamber of the locomotive.
      In Kazakhstan, they launched a factory for assembling Zh-M diesel engines, components from China with inch threads on nuts and studs that have something of their own, in principle, it would be possible to order a diesel from them as well, but the chief arbiter will probably be the same as the regular Zh-M.
  9. Aleks_good
    Aleks_good 4 June 2015 07: 19 New
    -9
    I didn’t read the article, I don’t understand the issue ... but you can fasten the dvigun from and from ZIL, let it swim at a slower rate until we do normal. Chezh them rust.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 June 2015 09: 29 New
      +8
      Quote: Aleks_good
      I didn’t read the article, I don’t understand the issue ... but you can fasten the dvigun from and from ZIL

      And here’s what happens -
  10. Vladimir.
    Vladimir. 4 June 2015 07: 27 New
    0
    Quote: exalex2
    Quote: mark1
    It is necessary to negotiate with China

    Played on the "pipe" .. Ruined production, destroyed everything to which the playful and corrupt pens reached out and now they are looking for "extreme" ones. Tomorrow the uncle will come, he will build everything, set it up and begin to produce kaaak .. And the "members of the government" in the Chapter will still sit on the "pipe", move the clock, rename and try to talk about "modernization", "innovation", "import substitution "," Skolkovo ", the Olympics," football "and looking longingly at the Pipe .. Can a pipeline be extended to Australia or" round the world "at once ?. Why build factories?


    I fully support you! If the government wanted to make a strong fleet, they would deal with it, and not carry out pipelines that our resources are transporting to other countries. In the same Europe.
    The United States doesn’t give anything to anyone, and lives 100 times better than us, maybe we’ll stop suffering garbage. There’s one problem, how then can our rulers fill money in their pockets ?!
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 4 June 2015 13: 07 New
      0
      Quote: Vladimir.
      and live better than us 100 times

      So a hundred times?
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 4 June 2015 18: 49 New
        0
        Quote: Setrac
        So a hundred times?

        But still better? In the household?
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 4 June 2015 19: 02 New
          +1
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          But still better? In the household?

          Somewhere in two and a half - three times better, but for this they rob the WHOLE WORLD. So that we live in the USA, we must find another inhabited planet and rob it constantly.
          Let me remind you that the United States produces 15% of the production of the whole world, and consume 40%.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 4 June 2015 20: 17 New
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            and for the sake of this they rob the WHOLE WORLD
            This is another question! drinks
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 4 June 2015 23: 10 New
              0
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              This is another question!

              I want to say in response to
              Quote: Vladimir.
              The United States donates nothing to anyone and lives 100 times better than us

              The welfare of the United States does not depend on how they dispose of their resources, but depends on how much they assign to another's resources.
  11. Aleks_good
    Aleks_good 4 June 2015 07: 27 New
    0
    For such sanctions, "Europeans" should be given a medal, for services to the fatherland. Now, thanks to them, we will be able to produce engines, turbines and a lot of other things, pay our salaries, how else could this be achieved?
  12. fomkin
    fomkin 4 June 2015 07: 38 New
    +6
    Our helmsmen deserve such a reward.
  13. srha
    srha 4 June 2015 08: 31 New
    +7
    Last year, I stopped in Russia after several years of absence. I was amazed at the number of young males in various markets! Even at the box office. But if somewhere arrived, then somewhere they are not ...
    1. AlexSK
      AlexSK 4 June 2015 11: 48 New
      +4
      Well, what do you want !? Take a look at the list of vacancies and you will see (judging by your city) that mostly one tradesman is required. Freight forwarders, merchants, merchandisers, all kinds of managers, sales consultants, storekeepers, etc. etc. Where there is and go to work.
  14. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 4 June 2015 10: 11 New
    +2
    On May 20, RIA Novosti reported that the Severnaya Verf plant (St. Petersburg) was forced to curtail the construction of new corvettes of project 20385. According to marketing director Leonid Kuzmin, the reason for this decision was the problem with the supply of a number of important components.

    Since 20385, things are not so simple. There are persistent rumors that the fleet was simply looking for a reason to refuse to purchase these overgrown corvettes, which cost more than frigate 11356.
    1. xtur
      xtur 4 June 2015 13: 26 New
      0
      > There are persistent rumors that the fleet was simply looking for a reason to refuse to purchase these overgrown corvettes, which cost more than frigate 11356.

      I read exactly the same idea on the bmpd blog
  15. MaKeNa
    MaKeNa 4 June 2015 10: 34 New
    +5
    That's what the market means! Under Stalin, turbines would be on ships by the end of the year! And there is no doubt that they would stand!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 June 2015 12: 15 New
      0
      Quote: MaKeNa
      That's what the market means! Under Stalin, turbines would be on ships by the end of the year! And there is no doubt that they would stand!

      Heh heh heh ...
      ... already at the end of 1936 the People’s Commissariat of Foreign Trade ordered 12 sets of GTZA and auxiliary mechanisms for the Sevens from the British firms Metro-Vickers and Parsons. They should have a slightly lower power (24 hp), but they could be launched in a cold state, without preheating, which theoretically reduced the preparation time for the ship to go to sea.
      In March 1938, the turbines received from England were distributed among the plants. Of the eight sets of Metro-Vickers state power plants, 7 went to Leningrad No. 189 and No. 190, and one more was sent to the KBF base as a reserve. Four sets of the Parsons company went to the Black Sea: 3 - to the Nikolaev factory No. 200 and one - to the Black Sea Fleet base in Sevastopol.

      At the head LK pr. 23 GTZA "Brown-Boveri" were purchased.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 June 2015 13: 30 New
        +5
        Quote: Alexey RA
        already at the end of 1936 the People’s Commissariat of Foreign Trade ordered 12 sets of GTZA and auxiliary mechanisms for the Sevens from the English firms Metro-Vickers and Parsons

        Nevertheless, it is worth noting that under Vissarionitch we:
        1) We established the production of our own GTZA
        2) Provided them with 6 leaders and 34 destroyers of project 7 and 7u. I don’t consider these other ships, including the cruisers of the project 26 and 26 bis - because you are talking about the "destroyer" GTZA.
        3) But, alas, it was not enough for another 12 own production capacities. Because bought in England.
        So the situation is still not equivalent - for some reason I don’t see 48 destroyers, frigates, or at least corvettes on the slipways, and 6 cruisers too :) About 4 battleships of the Soviet Union type (in our time there is one such battleship, this is probably the equivalent of an atomic super-carrier ) I do not observe either :)
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Ostwald
      Ostwald 4 June 2015 14: 39 New
      -2
      Quote: MaKeNa
      That's what the market means! Under Stalin, turbines would be on ships by the end of the year! And there is no doubt that they would stand!

      And then, like with diesel engines for T-34 tanks, in a year or two, someone would also be standing near the demolition wall, because something went wrong with those diesel engines as they wanted with their meager motor resources. And when they figured it out, it turned out that they shot the wrong ones.
  16. Dan Slav
    Dan Slav 4 June 2015 10: 48 New
    +2
    The Chinese need to slip a ready-made frigate and everything will be fine.
    It will be possible to buy ready-made engines from them in a few months.
    By the way, who knows how the Chinese have this business? They are actively developing the fleet. Sizes from Varyag to missile boats. Really buy or do it yourself?
    Shame on you! Cannot copy the finished thing yourself!
    PS One rower with galleys we have! It’s a pity the whole fleet isn’t enough! )))
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 4 June 2015 11: 10 New
      +5
      Buy and do. They have their own half-zombie General Electric, half-Zorya. But they order parts at the same Zora. However, they have their own stand, unlike Rybinsk.

      But they will not go for it because:
      - their frigates are better than 11356 (by the way, the same Calm with VPU was born thanks to the PLA order - they paid for the rocket and the launcher, got a license and are building now, having both Buki with 6 VPU and frigates 054 with 32 VPU, with 11356 24 VPU) and there are already 20 pieces. And frigates of the improved design are already building at the shipyards.
      - they depend on suppliers of parts in turbines, therefore they will not go to disrupt their own program, for the sake of someone.
  17. kursk87
    kursk87 4 June 2015 10: 51 New
    +2
    This will be a great lesson to our authorities. It is necessary to raise domestic industry, modern, competitive. It is necessary to finance domestic enterprises, to provide work for their citizens, and not to conclude contracts with enterprises of foreign states that are irresponsible about contractual obligations.
  18. okroshka79
    okroshka79 4 June 2015 12: 02 New
    10
    The situation with gas turbines for new ships of the Navy is a typical example of modern production management and economic planning by our "effective managers". This is a complete failure of our foreign policy towards Ukraine. Where was our foreign intelligence service? Who remembers or knows its leader Mikhail Fradkov? Who is Zurabov and what did he do useful for our state, both as the Minister of Health and the Ambassador to Ukraine. I am sure that this is not the only and last flaw in the development of our Armed Forces. For those who are not much in the subject, it is no secret that the Ukrainian leadership, practically from the very beginning of its "non-profit" in military matters, was not holding the most friendly position. Here is the result. And also because the leaders are now not professionals, but personalities selected according to the principle of personal loyalty. Who will name at least one professional head of the domestic branch department? Well, maybe one or two. Shame, shame and humiliation of Russia once again. I do not consider myself to be "all-fledged". As long as Russia has nuclear weapons, and the United States has not created a reliable missile defense system, one can expect that there will be no major war with the West. And there will be an eternally bleeding wound in the form of Ukraine at hand, then problems with ISIS, the Taliban will be added, and they will also think over some nasty thing to strangle Russia. Therefore, IMHO, now our media need not talk about daily and hourly, roughly speaking, not the ruble exchange rate against the dollar and euro, but rather report on domestic achievements in the economy. After all, with the naked eye it is clear that the West has seriously undertaken to crush and subjugate Russia once and for all. And we have all "Western partners, Western partners ..." It's disgusting to listen to. Of course, the movement, thank God, has begun. But time and resources were wasted. The banking sector and the gas pipeline, it turns out, were more important. And yet, but this is my personal opinion, it is necessary to take into account today the experience of building the economy and the production of weapons in the Great Patriotic War. Maybe we do not need now not a single "Armata" and T-50 and vbuhivanie in their fine-tuning and mastering the production of huge funds, but in the production of the best and most tested and mastered in the Armed Forces today? Indeed, for example, during the war, the PPSh was better in its characteristics than the PPSh, but the production of the PPSh was not curtailed and did not switch to the production of PPS, so as not to stop the production and saturation of the army with automatic weapons. I would like to hear the opinion of others on this matter.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 June 2015 12: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: okroshka79
      Indeed, for example, during the war, PPS was better in its characteristics than PPSh, but the production of PPSh was not curtailed and did not switch to the production of PPS so as not to stop the production and saturation of the army’s automatic weapons.

      Not everything was so simple with faculty.
      Judging by the list of PPP manufacturers, Sudaev’s submachine gun was not so easy to manufacture. Moreover, as it now turns out, the more technologically advanced PPSh-1942 was supposed to win the 2 submachine gun competition. wink
  19. bromine
    bromine 4 June 2015 12: 28 New
    0
    So what we have.
    1. On a global scale. Manufacturers: Zorya-Saturn, Rolls-Royce and General Electric.
    It is clear that the Anglo-Saxons, along with the amers, will bury Zorya-Saturn as a competitor in the market. In extreme cases, they will bankrupt and redeem shares. Maybe something auxiliary will be released or licensed.
    2. On a Russian scale. The best way out is to build your own specialized factory. In general, a serious program is needed in order to raise our fleet from its knees.
    It is necessary:
    - plant for the production of power plants;
    - several new docks for the production of aircraft and helicopter-carrying ships;
    - port cranes with a loading capacity of 200, 250, 300 tons;
    - and more on the little things.
    Pros - an impetus for the development of heavy industry, metallurgy, metalworking and related industries and related industries, jobs, taxes to the budget.
    Less - where to get the money you ask. And what do the money of the residents of the Russian Federation (taken from taxes) do in US debt obligations?
    Remove them from there and direct them into the development of their economy (Kudrin - hi).
  20. Mother Theresa
    Mother Theresa 4 June 2015 13: 00 New
    +2
    We destroyed the Nevsky Plant, the Lenin Plant (NZL), which produced gas turbines, are now being restored.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 June 2015 18: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: Mother Teresa
      We destroyed the Nevsky Plant, the Lenin Plant (NZL), which produced gas turbines, are now being restored.

      But did Nevsky Plant make gas turbine engines for the fleet?
      Alas, Nikolaev was engaged in turnkey naval GTEs in the USSR.

      Here is the scheme of cooperation on naval gas turbine engines in recent times (from LJ bmpd):
      On the Russian side, NPO Saturn OJSC (area of ​​responsibility - power turbine), NPO Avrora FSUE (GTE, diesel and unit control systems), Kolomensky Zavod OJSC (diesel engine), on the part of Ukraine - GP NPKG "Zorya - Mashproekt" (turbocharger and gearbox). The tests are carried out on the basis of the Ukrainian state enterprise RPC "Zorya-Mashproekt", since in Russia there is still no bench base for testing offshore gas turbine units.

      That is, the turbocharger and gearbox fell out, as well as the stand base (which is the worst). The turbine itself and control remained with us.
      1. Mother Theresa
        Mother Theresa 5 June 2015 10: 34 New
        0
        NZL made gas turbines and could very well switch to ship engines. It’s not entirely clear to me why the Proletarsky Plant is not attracted; it is just tied to ship gas-turbine engines.
  21. abc_alex
    abc_alex 4 June 2015 13: 09 New
    +3
    Quote: bromine
    It is clear that the Anglo-Saxons, along with the amers, will bury Zorya-Saturn as a competitor in the market. In extreme cases, they will bankrupt and redeem shares. Maybe something auxiliary will be released or licensed.


    Calm down bankrupt.
    Firstly, NPO Saturn is a Russian campaign and we still have to reach it.
    Secondly, Zorya-Mashproekt is also not so defenseless. This is still a large-scale mass production. And she has a backlog of orders.

    Quote: bromine
    2. On a Russian scale. The best way out is to build your own specialized factory.


    Yes, he is in Rybinsk, in fact Saturn makes gas turbine units, including ship ones. The question is to build a test bench, for testing, with which there is a plug.
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. GUKTU
    GUKTU 4 June 2015 14: 28 New
    +2
    Amid worsening international relations, such options need to be calculated in advance. For this, there are various analytical services in the relevant departments. And on the other hand, everything necessary for the military-industrial complex should be produced in the homeland. You can purchase samples of military equipment abroad, but only for a comprehensive study with the subsequent implementation in their own production through the improvement of the scientific and technical base.
  24. Amorales
    Amorales 4 June 2015 14: 44 New
    +1
    West rejoice, bitch.
  25. Algetxnumx
    Algetxnumx 4 June 2015 15: 20 New
    +3
    Until there is personal and personal responsibility of leaders at all levels for the full program (lifting the moratorium on the death penalty, toughening responsibility for economic and economic crimes) all this is an idle talk, now the sadness is drawn in power of our 2018 World Cup can be taken away, and here you are about turbines , ships.
  26. aud13
    aud13 4 June 2015 15: 37 New
    +3
    They say in the days of the Soviet Union, when the embargo was in force, they still managed to get the necessary equipment and technologies through front companies.
    Why not look from this side. Come Ukrainians themselves want to sell their products and get a denyuzhku.
    Well, already do the following games on your own.
    1. brat2
      brat2 5 June 2015 23: 06 New
      0
      But the enemies do not need it. Not for that they were falling apart, comrade.
  27. st.michman
    st.michman 4 June 2015 15: 50 New
    +2
    Good morning. Woke up? This is one of the very old bells and whistles, about ten years ago it was known and competent people reported and argued that it would happen sooner or later.
  28. 31rus
    31rus 4 June 2015 18: 00 New
    +1
    Enough of whining, no, this can’t, they can when the state wants (the atomic bomb project), they don’t want to think about dropping from their posts, they don’t want to work to imprison, tidy up and not show in Ukraine, do it yourself and do better than Ukrainian, to lure specialists once their stupid ones, to build stands, bases, all that is needed, money is here and over
  29. litus
    litus 4 June 2015 18: 10 New
    +1
    Don’t worry, they will build a stand, even faster than planned.
    "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger."
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. Velesovich
    Velesovich 4 June 2015 19: 14 New
    +2
    Another problem looms. On corvettes alone, we will have THREE (!!) different types of engines. In the future, this will seriously complicate the operation and repair of ships. Unless, at the first problems, replace the German and Ukrainian engines with ours, but this again will take a lot of time and will cost a lot. On the other hand, we can finally now produce such important things ourselves, which means that no problems will arise on frigates 22350 and future destroyers.
  32. maks1803
    maks1803 4 June 2015 19: 43 New
    0
    Thanks to the mattresses !!! Finally, I had to build everything myself. You need to rely on the current for yourself.
  33. kplayer
    kplayer 4 June 2015 20: 38 New
    +1
    The main manufacturer of ship gas-turbine power units in the World is an American company General Electric, and the famous series of turbines LM2500, max. with a shaft power of 33000 to 47000 hp, with the installation of 1-4 turbines, depending on the class and type of surface ships (from the frigate and above):
    http://www.geaviation.com/marine/engines/military/
    These gas turbines are also produced by a German company. MTU :
    http://www.mtu.de/engines/industrial-gas-turbines/lm-series/lm2500/
    - a world famous manufacturer of marine diesel engines too:
    http://www.mtuonsiteenergy.com/products/diesel-generator-sets/ (+ brochure-PDF)

    The British released their own ship turbines Rolls-Royce Spey SM1A and Crated power 18770 and 26150 hp respectively, which are installed (2/4 each) also on surface ships of the Dutch and Japanese (produced by the company Kawasaki) fleets. A new series of turbines - MT30.
    http://www.rolls-royce.com/customers/marine/about-marine/products.aspx (Pdf files)

    Types of ship propulsion systems, incl. combined:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_propulsion#Gas_turbines (table)
  34. akudr48
    akudr48 4 June 2015 22: 44 New
    +2
    More recently, about half a year ago, Rogozin said that the problem of import substitution from Ukraine can be solved in a year or a half.

    Six months have passed, half a year is left - a year. Where is Rogozin, what else will he promise ...

    The talker from the journalism department, with an exceptionally disastrous career, was set to lead the defense ...

    Because your boyfriend won't let you down ...

    And so everywhere, in Leninist style, after all, a cook can rule the state when everything is set up, and when not set up, can it?
  35. Garris199
    Garris199 5 June 2015 02: 15 New
    -1
    They wanted to build their own army on foreign components? Shoot.
  36. kig
    kig 5 June 2015 02: 38 New
    +1
    Do not get tired of wondering. How stupid is it to be in order to make soy weapons dependent on foreign components? Now the first corvettes can also be excluded, because there will be no spare parts for them.
  37. John Warner
    John Warner 5 June 2015 02: 40 New
    -3
    Two 1DDA-12000 units are 4 diesel engines paired in two.
    In theory - garbage for our industry.
    Somehow I can’t believe that they will build such a poppin as 16D49 for so long.
    For reference: it is on these diesels (one per section) that the diesel locomotives TEP70BS, 2TE70, 2TE116 and many others go.
    The article is a detector of authors' ignorance.
    1. kig
      kig 5 June 2015 05: 32 New
      +2
      Quote: John Warner

      For reference: it is on such diesels (one per section) that diesel locomotives drive


      For reference: 3D100 diesel locomotives were used in the fleet back in Soviet times, on transport diesel-electric ships of the Amguem type. Diesel locomotives were constantly amazed: they have been working with us for years, and sailors every year give packs for repairs. In the fleet: vibration, frequent changes in the load when working in ice, pitching, all sorts of nuances in terms of the human factor ... Engines for the fleet need SHIPBOARD, not diesel.
  38. Zionist29
    Zionist29 5 June 2015 03: 50 New
    0
    Quote: Kibalchish
    My opinion remains the same: engines should be taken from ukrov along with the areas in which they are located.

    IDF prepares to attack southern Lebanon
    During the war with Hezbollah, we evacuate one and a half million residents in Lebanon and then attack, "says a senior IDF General Staff officer.

    According to him, the evacuation of one and a half million residents of southern Lebanon will take 24 hours.

    The officer told about this during a briefing for journalists dedicated to large-scale army exercises, taking place this week throughout Israel with the participation of the Air Force, Ground Forces, Logistics Service and other units.
    "During the four days of the exercise, we were able to attack thousands of (fictitious) targets that we attacked during the Second Lebanese War," he said.
    He also added that Hezbollah is currently in a strategically difficult position. About 6-8 thousand of its fighters are now in Syria, where they are fighting on the side of the forces of Bashar al-Assad against jihadists.
    According to him, recently Hezbollah has been deploying its forces with personal property from South Lebanon, but weapons and ammunition are still in place.
    "Since the beginning of the war in Syria, Hezbollah has lost 700 fighters - one hundred in just the past two weeks," the officer said.
    He also added that military intelligence is closely monitoring developments on the Syrian side of the Golan Heights.
    "If they come to the border, we will make sure they stay on the other side, but we also will not allow massacres on the other side, especially when it comes to the Druze," he added.
  39. remy
    remy 9 June 2015 21: 10 New
    0
    you all look straightforwardly linearly at the situation. but if, just for thought ...
    maybe that's how it was conceived. ships will be! the main thing is not to run anywhere!
  40. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 16 June 2015 08: 38 New
    0
    When they voted for the independence of Russia and made a decision in Belovezhskaya Pushcha they thought about the country? Wanted to live in the states? And now the states have come here themselves to take what is left! And former deputies, Gorbachev and other traitors give interviews for June 12! Library named after Yeltsin !!! Yes, with such baggage and with such managers ...