The epoch of chain mail (part one)

94
Modern science tells us that any object created by human hands passes through five stages of its existence. The origin is a long latent period of maturation of the new in the depths of the old; formation - when an object or phenomenon declares itself; maturity - the dominance of a phenomenon or object, revealing the limits of their capabilities; finally, the decline and the beginning of the development of new phenomena and objects. The fifth stage is the relict existence of an object somewhere on the periphery of human society, such as the primitive tribes that are abandoned in the wild jungle of our modern primitive tribes. The chain mail in this regard is truly unique, since all these stages it went through, just as, incidentally, their plate-like armor also passed through them!

The epoch of chain mail (part one)
The most interesting thing on this piece of embroidery from Bayeux is how the chain mail is removed from the dead ... "Carpet Museum", Bayeux, France




As the hauberk appeared, no one, in general, knows about the guesses as to its appearance will be discussed in the second part, but here it will first of all be told how widespread it was in the epoch of the Ancient World, because it stated myself just then. And again it is difficult to say where its first, single samples appeared. But what is certain is that the Romans of the era of the Republic began to use chain mail on a massive scale. That is, the soldiers fought with Hannibal at Lake Trasimene and in other battles precisely in chain mail, but in no way in the lamellar Loric, characteristic of the Roman imperial period. stories!


Genuine Roman mail and next to it a restored pattern of its weaving. Museum in Saalsburg, Germany


However, the manufacture of many thousands of rings, which were required for chain mail, as well as their connection, was not an easy task at all. There were even experts who calculated the amount of time needed to put a whole legion on them. In particular, such a study was conducted by the English historian Michael Thomas, who, on the basis of experimental data, concluded that to make one chainmail of rings with a diameter of 6 mm, 50% of which will be brewed, and 50% riveted (and such chain mails of the Romans were also!) will require 1,3 of the year.

Thus, in order to provide a whole legion of 6000 people with mailmail (namely, there were so many warriors in it in the first century AD), 29000000 required man-hours of working time. So it is hardly worth the surprise that the Romans did not receive widespread mail and did not use mail as much as scaled armor. In addition, the repair of lamellar armor with plates sewn on the skin or on the fabric can also be done by the warrior himself: anyone who owned a needle could do it. It is noted that the chain mail of Roman legionnaires up to the 1st century. AD weighed 12-15 kg, that is, they were very heavy, which is why, according to British historians, and in particular Michael Simpkins, they were later abandoned.


Modern reconstruction of the appearance of the Roman legionnaire in the mail


The equestrian chain mail of the Romans was similar to the Celtic. They had a shoulder strap that looked like a cape, that is, they consisted of two parts, and their weight was about 16 kilograms. The lower ends of the shoulders were fastened on the rider's chest with the help of two hooks bent in the shape of the letter S. At the thighs the horse armor had cuts, which facilitated riding. On the columns of Trajan and Marcus Aurelius we see surprisingly short chain mail with a notched hem and it is not clear that this is a way of glorification of the legionaries, or it really was. On the other hand, there are quite a few reliefs and images of legionnaires in mail of both earlier and later times, where we see mail of quite normal length, that is, approximately to the knees.


Horsemen in chain mails of the late Roman republic from the altar of Lucius Domitius Agenobarba (consul 16 BC), Louvre


Interestingly, comparing the weight of Roman mail to the weight of mail of other nations, it can be noted that about the same weight and mail from Sudan, made in the second half of the XIX century, and whose weight reached 13,5 kg. At the same time, the diameter of the rings of a whole range of Roman armor was only 4 mm, which is less than the diameter of the wheels of many later and preserved era armor of the Middle Ages, the rings of which had an internal diameter of 5-7 mm.


Mail from Sudan. Trophy of the 1 Berkshire Regiment in the Battle of Tofreka, Sudan, 1885. Now the Museum of the Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiments, Salisbury


But the fact that the rings of most of the Roman armor found were not riveted, but kept together, which testifies to the "continuous" mass production at large state workshops. Obviously, this was done specifically to unify and reduce the cost of their production, even at the expense of manufacturing quality.

According to the R. Robinson British history, chain mail was widespread in Sassanian Iran, where it was used along with shell plates. Noting the excellent preservation of the rock carvings in the Tajn-and-Bostan 620 AD, he indicates how accurately and reliably the military equipment of Shah Khosrov II is depicted, because not only all the rings of his mail armor were worked there, but also docking.


Bas-relief from Taj-Bosana, Iran


Regarding the evolution of chain mail armor in the East, he notes that already in the XIV century. on Persian miniatures, you can see images of armor, representing a combination of plates and chain mail. Convex plates, above all, protected the knees - the most vulnerable part of the body of the eastern rider, using short stirrups. Well, and then the chain mail with plates gradually turned into a mixed type of armor, completely covering both the rider and his horse.


A 16th-century miniature from the poem by Firdousi “Shahnameh” depicts warriors of his time dressed in chain mail, over which bright caftans are put on. Mail helmmen are attached to the helmets, leaving the face open. British museum


In England, the so-called “burial at Sutton Hu” was discovered, investigating which archaeologists have concluded that this is the grave of the Anglo-Saxon king Radowold, who died in the year 625. In addition to the sword, they found six spears with ordinary tips, three spears with tips like “Angon”, and an original hybrid of a hammer and ax. They also found a chain mail, a shield and a unique helmet for finishing, which immediately fell on English marks and almost all publications related to the medieval theme. As for the diameter of the rings in this royal armor, fastened, by the way, with copper wire, it was equal to eight millimeters.

The Arabs of the times of the Arab conquest also knew and used mail *, which is proved by the famous “talk” of Caliph Omar and Amir Ibn al-Aza, representing the characteristic genre of medieval Oriental literature.
"What a dart?" - Amir asks a question, and the caliph answers him: - This is a brother who can betray you. - What are arrows? - Arrows are the messengers of death, which overtake, and maybe pass. - What is a shield? - This is the defense that suffers the most. - What is chain mail? “What makes up the rider and annoyance for the infantryman, but in all cases it is the best defense.” - What is a sword? “This is what could cause your death!”

The Viking chainmail was called the “shirt of the rings,” and she, in the same way as the shield, was given various poetic names. Well, let's say: "Blue shirt", "Battle cloth", "Network of arrows" and "Cloak for the fight." And again, it should be noted that the rings of the Vikings, although chained and overlapping each other, do not hold together their edges. It is clear that this technology made it possible to significantly accelerate their production and weave them right on the ship. Therefore, among them, mail was considered as the most common "uniform" of a warrior. The early chain mails had short sleeves, and they reached the hips, since the Vikings had to row them on their ships and long mail they would only have prevented them from doing so. However, already in the XI century, their length, at least for some, has greatly increased. For example, Harald Hardrada’s chain mail already reached him to the middle of the calf and was so strong at the same time that “no weapon it could not break. " Although, of course, the Vikings felt the weight of their defensive weapons and even often dumped them before the battle, as happened, for example, during the battle on the Stamford Bridge in 1066, just before the battle of Hastings.


The cavalry and the archers are in chain mail, but they are not overalls, but a long mail shirt with cuts in front and behind. "Carpet Museum", Bayeux, France


By the way, among historians for quite a long time it was believed that the famous embroidery dedicated to this battle, and most of all known as the Bayeux Carpet, depicts several different types of armor. This and armor of metal rings sewn on the skin, and each of them with the other rings are not connected. Then - quilted leather armor, stitched so that inside each square or diamond could be a metal plate. How difficult it is, and not otherwise, is difficult to say. However, it is definitely one thing, namely, that this armor could by no means be a jumpsuit, combined into one with sleeves and pants (the design of such a warrior was even placed in the Soviet-era Children's Encyclopedia!) same Obviously, this clothing was worn over the head or worn as a medical gown and then tied on the back. Proof of this is the embroidery itself, in which they are removed from fallen warriors just like a nightgown — that is, over the head. This operation would be impossible if its upper part were combined with the pants! But a square insert, which is visible on the chest of many warriors, could have a collar flap, and even a chain mail mask for the lower part of the face, not yet fastened. In any case, modern British scientists who have considered this question are related to the variety of protective armor depicted on the “Bayeux canvas”, obviously skeptical, because, in their opinion, the soldiers were quite enough at that time and didn’t looking for! Another thing is that the Duke Wilhelm and his brother Bishop Odo’s brother we see stockings of chain mail cloth, but even they don’t have one piece, they only protect the legs from the front. That is, even such wealthy gentlemen had only one piece of stockings either could not afford, or they did not see any need for them!


Warriors with embroidery from Bayeux. Warriors in mail and on the other side. "Carpet Museum", Bayeux, France


And our Soviet historians for a long time called this set of weapons “heavy”, making the knight clumsy, clumsy and mocking him as they could. And only to prove the originality of our entire development path! At the same time, the knights of Russia and the Saracen horsemen of the Middle East, with whom the knights of the West met during the Crusades, and if it was different, were in exactly the same weapon complex, and only in details!

* The most ancient mention of chain mail is found even in the Quran, where it is said that God with the hands of Daoud softened the iron and said: “Make a perfect shell of it and connect it thoroughly with rings”. Therefore, the Arabs and called the chain mail - armor Daoud.
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  1. +9
    26 May 2015 09: 33
    And for a long time our Soviet historians called this set of weapons “heavy”, making the knight awkward, clumsy and scoffed at him as much as they could ...

    What, already in the blood, cannot the TRUE historian write and not kick? Isn’t it a liberal, by the hour?
    For the information of the author:
    1. Chain mail, etc. is not a "set of weapons", but rather a "set of equipment".
    2. Heavy in Russian, then Soviet, and then Russian history were called forged plate - solid (with a fitted "quilting") or from large parts, assembled into a whole and put on over the chain mail (included a deaf helmet, "body armor" like cuirassier's, shoulder pads, handcuffs, greaves. I repeat - forged all-metal!
    That is why at knightly tournaments, after falling from a horse on foot, only the "rounded" fighters continued the fight. For "heavy" knights, the duel ended with a fall from a horse ...
    I liked how the author tried to figure out an interesting, in principle, question. But the raunchy final review brought him my minus ...
    1. +8
      26 May 2015 18: 14
      Alas, oh again, stereotypes, even in full plate armor with a helmet resting on your shoulders, you can ... so-and-so drum roll ... you can do fitness, in how, a video to help:
      1. 0
        26 May 2015 22: 33
        And the Assyrians still used chain mail in large numbers, before the Romans
        1. +1
          27 May 2015 05: 58
          A source of information?
          1. +1
            27 May 2015 07: 45
            I would also like to get acquainted. Gaps, so to speak, fill ...
      2. 0
        27 May 2015 02: 13
        Quote: cth; fyn
        Alas, oh again, stereotypes, even in full plate armor with a helmet resting on your shoulders, you can ... so-and-so drum roll ... you can do fitness, in how, a video to help:

        Oh, thank you very much. Because I almost bought all these stereotypes, although there were doubts. Of course, those who did not have good blacksmiths were content with heavy armor, but no one in their right mind would completely deprive themselves of freedom of movement. I repeat - I have always had doubts about the legends of knights who cannot move independently in armor.
        1. 0
          27 May 2015 07: 37
          Here is a link to a two-handed sword workshop. I bring it for what - at the very end, from the moment of 7.15 Frolov does in lats transverse twine.
          And you say mobility ...

          link itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wm5yRDU_ik
          1. +1
            27 May 2015 08: 27
            Totally agree with you. And in the museum in Leeds, animators, fighting in armor, jump, and in a jump push each other with their feet to the chest. But they sweat a lot with this!
            1. +1
              27 May 2015 09: 12
              But they sweat very much at the same time!
              There is no escape from this. Tourists out in the raincoat made of thin synthetics sweat no weaker.
              1. Elk
                Elk
                0
                28 May 2015 06: 27
                There is no escape from this.

                And in modern body armor they sweat, and how!
        2. Elk
          Elk
          0
          28 May 2015 02: 23
          Of course, those who did not have good blacksmiths were content with heavy armor.

          Plate armor could only be made by a specialist of a very high class and from very high-quality steel. Full Maximilian armor is the pinnacle of technology and technology of the late Middle Ages. No wonder it cost a lot of money.
          A heavy armor was, but it was a tournament specimens, not battle armor.
        3. cleary
          +3
          2 June 2015 22: 49
          The armor for tournaments was made heavy, mainly for spear fights. It came to that. Stechhelm, (toad head), helmet only for a lance duel, almost completely protects the head, neck, collarbone due to the fixed mount on the cuirass.
          1. 0
            20 July 2015 02: 31
            clesaryy RU June 2, 2015 22:49 ↑
            The armor for tournaments was made heavy, mainly for spear fights. It came to that. Stechhelm, (toad head), helmet only for a lance duel, almost completely protects the head, neck, collarbone due to the fixed mount on the cuirass.

            And there was also a "battle cloak" made of forged steel on the left half of the body.
        4. +1
          20 July 2015 02: 25
          I repeat - I have always had doubts about the legends of knights who cannot move independently in armor.


          Generalizations are always failing. There were tournament armor. Maximum protection and minimum mobility. Here about them all these tales about clumsy knights who can neither mount a horse nor stand up from the ground themselves.
          And there was combat armor, in which to climb on the wall and "God forbid feet" if something happens.
          There was everything. But not everywhere and not always. At the expense of "always" a separate conversation. "Knight" in Russian is a European horseman-nobleman. In French - "Chevalier". And Dartagnan, he is also a Chevalier. But you can't call him a knight. The era is not the same, armor is not in vogue. And the knight Lancelot most likely wore a loric. And formally he was neither a knight nor a nobleman, like all the others from Camelot.
      3. 0
        28 May 2015 00: 44
        Quote: cth; fyn
        Alas, ah again, stereotypes, even in full plate armor with a helmet resting on the shoulders can ... t

        YOU ARE BANG first with a horse in armorand then we'll see ... can you even exist.

        Even if the horse does not cover the rider
        (The fall with the horse is most dangerous when the horse covers itself with a man. The horse is an extremely heavy “sports projectile.” It is quite average, according to current standards of modern sport, a horse can weigh 400-500 kg!)
        falling from a height of 1m 50cm,




        the most vulnerable parts of the human body are the neck (so the head must be pulled in like a tortoise) and the back. Do not fall on your back under any circumstances! (now we will try to "implement" all this in lats ....)
        / Speech about it:
        Quote: Sacmagon
        For "heavy" knights, the duel ended with a fall from a horse ...

      4. cleary
        +3
        2 June 2015 22: 34
        I will support. Combat, namely combat, not tournament, armor of the Milan type weighs no more than thirty kg, this is with a sword and a dagger. A genuine kit was weighed, not a remake. Given the uniform distribution of weight over the body, this is not very much, but given the constant wearing, it becomes completely invisible. For skeptics. During the conscription service for four months, the unit was kept on alert, sleeping in bronics. Accustomed to
    2. +2
      26 May 2015 18: 15
      You would read history textbooks Cf. centuries. There, most often, no distinction was made by century and, accordingly, the type of armor. And on Lake Peipsi knights "clad in heavy armor" fought constantly. So it's not about kicking, about knowing the factual material. And I don't need a note. I have more than 20 works on this topic, I do not consider articles in VAK journals published in the Russian Federation, England and Germany, including those of a historiographic nature, that is, with links to authoritative sources. You can read my article, for example, about the armor of Henry 8 th in the journal "Questions of history".
      1. 0
        26 May 2015 18: 45
        And let's get our work, I like to read.
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        5. 0
          26 May 2015 22: 15
          Everything is on the web - look.
      2. niryala
        +3
        27 May 2015 00: 52
        Vyacheslav Olegovich! According to your article, there is a practical question: have there been studies of the chemical composition of the metal from which chain mails of different peoples and times were made? If carried out - where can I get acquainted with the results? By the composition of the metal and the technology of its processing, it is interesting to trace how the quality of the means of attack and defense was balanced. Sincerely.
        1. +1
          27 May 2015 06: 03
          First of all, thanks for the question! Interesting! My answer is that the studies were conducted. In any case, the metallographic analysis of the armor from the arsenal in Malta was carried out accurately. But ... honestly, I began to read and there went such a thing that I did not understand, well, a very specific text. So let's see what the British have and write then. About ours I do not know. I have a subject of historiography, I would understand it.
          1. Elk
            Elk
            0
            28 May 2015 06: 34
            In any case, metallographic analysis of armor from the arsenal in Malta was carried out accurately. But ... I honestly admit, I started reading and it went there that I did not understand, well, a very specific text.

            If possible, give a link.
            Were carried out. I can throw off scans of a book. There, including materials on metallography. Only everything is in English. Reading rather for a metallurgist

            I beg you, discard, all the same, although I am not a metallurgist, I have worked in this industry for more than 15 years. And I’m toiling with pieces of iron for almost 30. I understand the English risk. True with the dictionary, but these are trifles.
            1. 0
              28 May 2015 07: 25
              Throw off the mail in PM. I will send it. PDF format.
            2. 0
              28 May 2015 22: 24
              Be sure to find a link to the book, do not worry.
              1. 0
                29 May 2015 07: 12
                Already sent. Personal archive of downloaded materials
                wassat
        2. +1
          27 May 2015 07: 50
          Were carried out. I can throw off scans of a book. There, including materials on metallography. Only everything is in English. Reading rather for a metallurgist wink
          1. +1
            27 May 2015 08: 28
            Well, one mind is good, and two minds are better! Thank!
          2. niryala
            +1
            27 May 2015 22: 18
            Greetings! If possible - discard the information on this issue, I am engaged in metal processing, interesting chains can be traced. Best regards, Dmitry
            1. 0
              28 May 2015 09: 58
              Give me the mail, I'll throw it off. And then there is no way to attach arbitrary documents
              1. niryala
                0
                30 May 2015 00: 53
                Greetings! The address [email protected]. Thanks in advance and good luck!
      3. 0
        20 July 2015 02: 32
        I have more than 20 works on this topic, I do not consider articles in VAK journals published in the Russian Federation, England and Germany, including those of a historiographic nature, that is, with links to authoritative sources.

        Respect and respect! hi
    3. +1
      26 May 2015 22: 31
      Something physical training at "reconstruction" does not correspond to the Roman legionnaire laughing
      1. 0
        20 July 2015 02: 38
        Something physical training at "reconstruction" does not correspond to the Roman legionnaire


        Roman legionaries ("indigenous", not allies and not barbarians) were fat, because they preferred bread and porridge. And when the grain supply was interrupted and they had to eat meat, they threatened with a riot. Do not believe me - re-read Caesar G.Yu.
    4. +2
      28 May 2015 09: 53
      Forged armor was called heavy in Russian, then Soviet, and then Russian history.
      Do not talk nonsense if you do not understand the subject.
      Heavy armor is called (and, accordingly, the rider or infantryman in it) if all or most of the warrior's body is reserved. The weight of such a kit is secondary. Primarily, it is precisely that the warrior is booked as fully as possible and relatively invulnerable in comparison with "light" booking. And the tactics of a heavily armored unit of warriors, no matter the cavalry or infantry, is primarily a decisive onslaught at a short distance with melee weapons.
      And this concept is accepted in historical and military science both abroad and in the USSR / Russia. Your fantasies about the interpretation of what "heavy armor" is - these are just your fantasies.
      That is why at knightly tournaments, after falling from a horse on foot, only the "rounded" fighters continued the fight. For "heavy" knights, the duel ended with a fall from a horse ...
      Another nonsense that does not correspond to either realities or common sense. After falling from a horse, a stunned fighter will receive bruises at points of contact and in a severe case, dislocations-fractures due to the flexibility of the armor, which will not distribute the blow to the entire surface and will not resist torsion-kinks.
      The Plate Knight, by comparison, is relatively (but not completely) safe. Especially in tournament armor for "gesture", where a deaf helmet was screwed to the cuirass and it was generally impossible to get a broken neck. And the armor itself was immeasurably strengthened.
      Another thing is that the format of the spear match at the tournament did not imply a continuation after the spear. And the armor was imprisoned only under a collision.
      But in the "chalk" (group equestrian tournament fight) there could easily be fights until complete victory, with any available weapon and after being kicked out of the saddle. But in this type of tournament fight, they usually went in standard combat armor without additional reinforcements that restrict movement.
  2. +9
    26 May 2015 10: 19
    best known as Bayeux Carpets
    Throughout the world, this product is called tapestry, not carpet. Why come up with?
    On the columns of Trajan and Marcus Aurelius, we see surprisingly short chain mail with a serrated hem and it is not clear that this is a way of glorifying the legionnaires, or it really was. On the other hand, there are many reliefs and images of legionnaires in chain mail of both earlier and later times, where we see chain mails of quite normal length, that is, approximately to the knees.
    There are no jagged edges of chain mail. Basically, there is "lorica segmental" with the edges of clothing protruding from below, gathering in folds. In addition, making a jagged edge of chain mail is a trifling matter. Therefore, chain mail was generally decorated in this way a little more than often.
    As for the length of chain mail. It depends directly on only one thing: for the infantryman chain mail or for the rider.
    For an infantryman, the standard length of chain mail is up to the middle of the thigh or slightly shorter. But not to the knee. And cuts on such chain mail are either not done, or are made from the sides - the side is still protected by a shield on the left and a hand with a weapon on the right. But the groin kick does not like.
    For the rider, chain mail can be even to the knees and even longer. Most often - to the knee or to the lower border of the knee. Section front to back. To be able to sit in the saddle. Moreover, the posterior incision comes higher. The Roman riders wore a rather short chain mail because of the peculiarities of landing in the saddle without stirrups - their knees are quite high. It is pointless to make chain mail long as in the Middle Ages, since it hangs down under its own weight, and the knee comes forward and is not protected by chain mail.
    1. 0
      26 May 2015 18: 04
      Well, of course not, when photos from the column were laid out here, where exactly such chain mails are visible? And visible well!
    2. +1
      26 May 2015 18: 44
      As for the length of chain mail. It depends directly on only one thing: for the infantryman chain mail or for the rider.

      You shouldn't have it. Conversation of the sighted with the blind about the colors of the sunset. This "respected author" has works! Recognized in England! This means two things. First, if he does not kick Russia at least somehow in any of his articles, he will be deprived of the grant. And secondly, he is a historian recognized by the "scientific community". That is, logical thinking is not characteristic of him, those people who are at odds with logic are not allowed into this very community.
      Well, you see what he refers to in his "scientific" work! On these unfortunate tapestries, the artists of the time paint with all their might. They draw what they do, but they do a little. It finally turned out to depict a clumsy ring. And the draftsman filled the whole figure with rings! Well, he can't do anything else! On this basis, the "researcher" concludes that the chain mail was to the heels.
      "I can see right through you bastards !!" Convincing proof that X-ray transmission was invented by Ivan the Terrible. Your logical constructions are in vain. There is nothing to turn them to.
      1. 0
        26 May 2015 20: 16
        Do you have an attack of patriotism?
      2. 0
        26 May 2015 22: 18
        Have you read at least one book that came out there? Or is it like with Pasternak in the USSR - "I have not read, but he is an enemy of the people!" Well, if they hadn't let them in, they wouldn't have published them in Voprosy istorii.
        1. +2
          27 May 2015 11: 11
          Well, if they hadn't let them in, they wouldn't have published them in Voprosy istorii.

          Well, as I say - you are recognized by the scientific community, that is, by our lovely historians. Sitting on American grants like a junkie. I read sometimes. So that this just was not "I have not read but I condemn." I read, and therefore I condemn! You can't swear here ...
          Here is your answer here in the topic. The person asks you - what about the comparative composition of the metal. And you answer him ... Lord, I would cry if I first came across historical "science"! And he just grinned. You are a "specialist" in chain mail, you study the topic, you have work ... Once, somewhere, like that, you accidentally saw that someone (not at your request, of course!) Was doing some kind of analysis. But the results are you niasilia, and, of course, you did not think to ask for clarification!
          You are a "specialist" !! Yes, such "specialists" are expelled from all and all real cases with a pissing rag !! Because such "specialists" are dangerous, they do not understand anything about what they argue about with aplomb, and conclusions about the complex mechanism of blow damping - chain mail, are made on the basis of drawings of illiterate and inept medieval draftsmen! But he is not able to study the mechanism itself - there is no mind! What are you not ashamed to admit! If a designer tried to come to a construction site to draw concrete structures, he didn’t know anything about concrete ... And you have "scientific" titles, right? Scientific, yeah ...
          1. +1
            27 May 2015 11: 47
            Have you read my books published in England in English? Something is not similar. And that all our historians are sitting on grants from where? It's funny to read it! And not to be afraid to admit that you don't know something is not ashamed. It's a shame to pretend that you know everything. And I am not an expert in reconstruction, forging and welding. My specialization is historiography. Are you somehow dissatisfied with the presentation of the material in the article in terms of historiography? And I have nothing about the complex mechanism of shock damping and I am not going to study it. Historiography is a little different. And I have scientific titles, and I got them back in the USSR. Now I see that you are very concerned about other people's grants - envy of other people's money is a property of many. Well, I received them both from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation, and in 1998 - rejoice! - from the Soros Foundation. For the book published in the publishing house "Enlightenment" "Knights of the Middle Ages" and the promising book "Knights of the East" (published in 2000). For one of them I had to read a course of lectures at the University of Novosibirsk. They have a very solid school about medieval archeology, so they could hardly be deceived, right? Soros did not put any conditions connected with "vilification of the history of Russia". However, it is enough to look into these books to see it. It is the same with books in England - they open for the British little-known pages of our military history before Peter 1. But there are no statements anywhere that Russians, lying with a curved sword in hand under a spreading cranberry, drink vodka directly from a samovar. Well, no, and that's it! And you should first get at least some degree, and only then criticize those who have them. This is a common thing for semi-literate journalists who earn on descriptions of grants bought in the metro degrees, but the dogs bark, and the caravan moves on!
            1. 0
              27 May 2015 12: 12
              Do not try to fight the troll. It provokes you to this
              1. 0
                27 May 2015 12: 46
                This is true, but others read the comments, and for the sake of others, I think, sometimes you can!
              2. Elk
                Elk
                0
                28 May 2015 06: 49
                A troll stewed with roots and buckwheat porridge is a very pleasant meal. wink
                1. 0
                  28 May 2015 07: 27
                  A troll stewed with roots and buckwheat porridge is a very pleasant meal.
                  But, as is well known, only until the sun rises. Turns to stone under the sun wassat
                  1. Elk
                    Elk
                    0
                    28 May 2015 18: 00
                    But, as is well known, only until the sun rises.

                    You need to move the spoon more actively! hi
                    1. 0
                      29 May 2015 07: 13
                      So a spoon is a short-lived business. Stir for a long time and then stew. The meat is very tough.
      3. 0
        27 May 2015 06: 16
        And the still-worn St. Venceslaus mail is not a confirmation of the tapestry drawings? Yes, there are few artifacts of that time, but they are named in the article - the chain-mail grave in Sutton-Hu, the finds of chain-mail in Nidam. It’s just not possible to refer to everything in a small article, as well as to accompany references to sources. And is it worth it? If such as you do not even see what is written in the text itself.
      4. 0
        27 May 2015 07: 25
        Conversation of the sighted with the blind about the colors of the sunset. This "respected author" has works! Recognized in England!
        Recognized authors (most), until recently, when compiling museum expositions, confused parts of armor on mannequins (right and left, mixed centuries of exhibits ...) and made heaps of all kinds of mistakes related to weight, purpose of weapons, and so on.
        And all because looking at the armor is one thing, and dressing it and moving in it is another. Therefore, the most correct approach is a complex of both of the above actions. But a considerable part of historians, even recognized ones, do this extremely rarely.
        On these unfortunate tapestries, artists of the time paint with all their might.
        There is not a picture, but an embroidery. No exact authorship has been established. But traditionally it is believed that it was made by order of Queen Matilda, who was the wife of the protagonist of the scenes on the tapestry of William the Conqueror, her courtiers weavers. If so, then the plot on the canvas was marked out by someone more knowledgeable in military affairs than the weavers themselves. Well, embroidery ... it’s a peaceful matter and the realism of the image of armor is not directly related.
        1. 0
          27 May 2015 08: 31
          In England, research on the "tapestry" has been completed and interesting finds have been made. You can now forget about Queen Matilda, the story is romantic, but no more. I will definitely make material on this topic for VO, but later.
          1. 0
            27 May 2015 09: 17
            If possible in more detail. And then the topic, in this sense, has so far been little disclosed. And from it there is a lot that can flow in the sense of reconstructing the armor of that era.
            This is how, after many studies, it turned out that with a certain amount of schematics, all sorts of later stained glass windows and gravestone sculptures very well reflect the details of the design of the armor.
            1. +1
              27 May 2015 11: 49
              The bottom line is that the images were made by the loser and the truth about the Battle of Hastings is encrypted in them. I am now finishing my books about this, but ... the session, so there is no time to do it properly. That is, not by armor, but by the "secrets" of the tapestry!
      5. Elk
        Elk
        0
        28 May 2015 06: 45
        First, if he does not kick Russia at least somehow in any of his articles, he will be deprived of the grant. And secondly, he is a historian recognized by the "scientific community". That is, logical thinking is not characteristic of him, those people who are at odds with logic are not allowed into this very community.

        Let's start with the fact that this author is not talking nonsense, like "having no analogues", for you and your ilk it is a red rag.
        And what is logical thinking? And where does the story, which in no way relates to the exact sciences?
  3. +4
    26 May 2015 10: 38
    Now for the weight of chain mail and ring diameters.

    The smaller the diameter of the rings, the more laborious the manufacture. At all times, more expensive chain mail for the upper class were made of smaller rings. In addition, they were riveted, welded, or part of them became continuous, by the method of cutting from the sheet. All this was known in Dr. Rome. As was known, and technology for the manufacture of wire by drawing.
    Cheap chain mail was often from flattened rings. However, the level of development of production in Dr. Rome allowed in the imperial period to supply the army with hamat loriki (chain mail) from riveted rings.
    Medieval Europe reached a similar level of production by about 14-15 centuries. The technology of drawing and, accordingly, mass production of the wire necessary for chain mail was re-mastered in Europe in the 13th century. Therefore, up to this point, chain mail armor was very expensive. After all, one hauberk takes up to 600-800 m of wire. And it must first be hammered out of a piece of iron with a hammer. It is very time consuming.
    The weight of the chain mail indicated by the author is a bit overpriced. 13-16 kg weighs chain mail for the rider (i.e. long) of flattened round wire. The riveted one weighs significantly less, because in the manufacture of the ring is flattened.
    In general, the weight of the chain mail most depends not on the size of the ring, but on the ratio of the inner diameter of the ring to the diameter of the wire. If this ratio is 4: 1 (for example, an outside diameter of 8 mm with a wire thickness of 2 mm), the finished product will be very, VERY heavy, albeit reliably protected even from arrows with a sharp tip.
    Typically, the ratio is in the range of 5: 1 to 10: 1. In this case, riveted chain mail long to the middle of the thigh (infantry) fits into the weight of 5-8 kg. A knight's hauberk (long to the knee, full sleeves at the same time with chain-mail mittens, a whole koif) fits in this case at 11-14 kg.
    1. 0
      27 May 2015 06: 21
      All of you write absolutely correctly, but about the overstatement here: I myself did not weigh them. Data taken from Oakeshott, Richardson, Nicolas and others. They have that Harold's chain mail was called Emma and weighed 24 kg! Where did they get it, I don't know. But these are well-known historians, the typology of Oakeshott swords, for example, is recognized all over the world, and Nicolas's book "Armor and Weapons of the Crusader Era 1050 - 1350" is considered the best such study in general by the completeness of sources.
      1. 0
        27 May 2015 06: 59
        I tell you as a manufacturer and experimenter in various chain-link weaving. And as clothing and using this product, albeit in a sports, but full contact battle. With a ring ratio of 4,5: 1 and a wire thickness of 1.8 mm, chain mail per rider (floors to the knees, sleeve to the elbow, collapsed rings, no coif) weighs 20 kg. With a thicker wire and a 4: 1 ring ratio, it can easily reach 30 kg. And more...
        The question of the reasonable / maximum weight of chain mail is a question of the size and strength of a person. You can pull on and 100 kg and ... quickly die under this weight. They did not carry such chain mail into battle. For it is unreasonable for any training. Armor in battle (namely in battle) with a total weight of more than 30 kg is exclusively late forced bulletproof versions of the era, not even arquebuses, but muskets.
        Chain mail well preserved from the era to plate armor reached only a few pieces. And those are not completely whole. I have not seen a museum photo of Harold's chain mail. Unlike chain mail Wenceslas. So how much this miraculous armor weighed was a matter of picking your nose.
        Most of the chain mail of that period are available in the form of cobblestones sintered from rust, as in the first photo from the article. Therefore, it is very debatable to talk about their intravital parameters.
        The weights of products of a later period, which have come down to us and are structurally not different from earlier samples, are known. And they are even available on the Internet. They correspond to what I wrote above.
        1. +1
          27 May 2015 08: 34
          Yes, here I completely agree with you. I generally believed and believe that the cabinet scientist and the experimenter should go hand in hand through history. Discoveries interesting not long to wait.
          1. 0
            27 May 2015 09: 20
            Why there was a breakthrough in the question, when all kinds of enthusiasts crossed / grew from the stage of a fight in a clumsy iron to the stage of a scientific complete reconstruction. Because practice testing has helped to better comprehend theories. Some reject, others confirm, others generally formulate.
            1. 0
              27 May 2015 11: 50
              Yes, this is the way it is!
          2. 0
            20 July 2015 02: 53
            Yes, here I completely agree with you. I generally believed and believe that the cabinet scientist and the experimenter should go hand in hand through history. Discoveries interesting not long to wait.

            "Experiment" is called! good
    2. Elk
      Elk
      0
      28 May 2015 07: 13
      And it must first be hammered out of a piece of iron with a hammer. It is very time consuming.

      Do not forge it. The wire for chain mail was dragged. Nobody has ever forgotten technology, the benefit is simple enough. And even more so, no one ever forged a wire. Do not write nonsense.
      1. 0
        28 May 2015 07: 44
        The wire for chain mail was dragged. Nobody has ever forgotten technology, the benefit is simple enough.
        Here you are wrong. The drawing of iron into the wire was known in ancient Rome. After the collapse of the empire, this technology has gone out of use for most centuries in most of Europe. After all, this is the region we are considering. That is, it was actually lost. Again in Europe, this technology came into use in the 13th century.
        Simple - this is from a modern belfry. The principle of technology itself is really simple. But its execution is far from there. Especially in a small forge.
        Among the problems requiring a technological solution for this: both the manufacture of wear-resistant drawing boards (with a sequential set of holes of different diameters), and ensuring constant uniform heating of the workpiece when pulling (because cold pulling iron is much more difficult), and ensuring the necessary and uniform effort when pulling ( jerks the wire will tear), and ... a lot more.
        In the Dark Ages and the early Middle Ages, wire for chain mail was forged in Europe. About Byzantium and the East, a separate conversation. There, gold and silver were dragged in a thread. Fortunately, these metals are more plastic.
        1. Elk
          Elk
          0
          28 May 2015 18: 12
          Here you are wrong. The drawing of iron into the wire was known in ancient Rome.

          Wire drawing, to be honest, is a very primitive technology. Drawings and swings were invented countless times. To be honest, the most difficult issue of drawing is the compression ratio.
          Although I will not argue, they could have forgotten.
          1. 0
            29 May 2015 07: 19
            Wire drawing, to be honest, is a very primitive technology.
            The principle is simple. That is yes. But...
            To be honest, the most difficult issue of drawing is the compression ratio.
            The devil, as always, is in the details. And indicated by you. not the only one.
            For instance. Making an iron board for drawing gold is one thing. There, due to the plasticity of gold, everything is simple (according to medieval product tolerances) both in the wear resistance of the material and in the tolerances for the compression ratio.
            And it’s completely different when both the board is iron (or from inferior steel), and the stretched material is iron (moreover, it is heterogeneous in the content of carbon and impurities).
            1. Elk
              Elk
              0
              29 May 2015 16: 22
              The devil, as always, is in the details.

              There is no particular devil there. Yes, as a normal Soviet mechanical engineer, I’ll calculate the profile of a die in about two days (if it’s hand-to-hand), but it’s quite realistic to experimentally select it.
              And it’s completely different when an iron board (or from inferior steel),

              The funny thing is, with the right profile, there is not much difference. It will not be sickly to swim surface quality and diameter, but again, not critical.
              and the material being drawn is iron (moreover, heterogeneous in the content of carbon and impurities).

              But this is yes.
  4. +5
    26 May 2015 10: 58
    As for the severity of both the knightly and the East European armor complex for the 11th-13th centuries.

    Everyone who could afford it, necessarily added reinforcements to chain mail. It could be the second short chain mail or chain vest, and scaly and lamellar armor.
    The armor of a princely warrior - a heavy horseman was even slightly heavier than an equal in rank European knight. In addition, in Eastern Europe and in Russia in particular, there was a strong influence of the East (Iran, Byzantium, Central Asia) with its more developed production than in Europe (at that time). Riveted (and not sewn-on) scaly armor and braided lamellars of the type of any cataphracts and others like them were widely used. In Europe, similar analogs (the first brigants) as a mass phenomenon, and not a piece goods for kings, came into use during Batu's invasion of Europe. As a response to the widespread use by the Mongols of the most powerful composite bows and an armor complex of the elite shock units of Mongolian men at arms. There is an opinion (not yet fully proven) that options for reinforcements such as large-plate brigants a'la Visby-1 were directly borrowed and reworked from the Mongolian armor "khatangu degel" during this period.
  5. padonok.71
    +4
    26 May 2015 11: 41
    What is it?! Why does every author and critic cling to these unfortunate knights? After all, it has long been known that until the 12th century (and somewhere later) there was simply no fundamental difference in the weight of armor between the West and Russia. And here and there chain mail armor is the basis of the protective complex of a professional warrior. Weaving, helmets, bracers, leggings differed, wearing varied (Rus' belted chain mail, fastened the west to the gambizon, with those very "square inserts" incomprehensible to the author). So the weight is full parity.
    But then our paths diverge. The West has hit the armor, we are in "typesetting" (lamellars, bakhters, etc.). And by the age of probably 14-15th the western knight was easier. Plate armor "Maximilians" (as the apotheosis of plate armor) weighed 32-36 kg. against 40-42 Russian mirror, Turkish type. It is due to the complete rejection of chain mail (only blotches on the gombison in the armpits, elbow, knee bend and, sorry, sirloin). The mirror included a full chain mail with sleeves, stockings and a hood - hence the weight.
    Tales of heavy latnik people who are unable to stand up are tales. There are many examples in the history of dismounting the knightly knights and their actions on foot. And the ears of these tales grow out of tournament armor (which, unlike the battle ones, is well preserved). Yes there, and the thickness of the cuirass is 2-2.5 mm. (moreover, as a rule, it is thicker on the left, up to 5 mm.), and mega shoulders, and a helmet of 7-9 kg. Hence the tales. But I repeat, they did not fight in these armors.
    1. +2
      26 May 2015 12: 34
      Russia girded with chain mail, fastened the west to the gambison, with those very "square inserts" incomprehensible to the author
      ALL chain mail is belted necessarily. In this case, a circular fold, slightly overhanging the belt, is elongated above the belt.
      Otherwise: 1) you will quickly get tired of carrying full weight on your shoulders and arms (and half load the lower back), 2) you won’t be able to swing your arms well, raising your hand high (the chain mail does not stretch like a fabric).
      Lacing up all chain mail to the armor makes no sense. The sketchy squares on the chest are in some cases the front chain valve, in others, various reinforcements on the chest. In the 11-12 centuries, chest reinforcement plates were worn both over chain mail and tucked under it.
      Plate armor "Maximilians" (as the apotheosis of plate armor) weighed 32-36 kg. against 40-42 Russian mirror, Turkish type.
      About zertsalny you went too far. Kg so on 15-20.
      At the time of the "Maximilians" this armor was heavier than the eastern one - the latest and heaviest lances and a lot of arquebus were massively used. The armor-bullet race has already started.
      But about the Gothic armor - I agree. Very mobile and comfortable with a weight of 20-26 kg. The dream of a knight. Lighter than the full version of the lamellar or the first full bahtters, who have lamellar shoulders, sleeves, a skirt.
      1. padonok.71
        +1
        26 May 2015 17: 25
        Quote: abrakadabre
        ALL chain mail is belted necessarily.
        I would say many. For example: Moreover, note that the one on the horse is not girded, and this is logical. Mabute, of course, is more appropriate to make a "life buoy", on the legs it is easier. Also look at the Bayoo tapestry that the author of the article refers to, is there a lot of belted around? And say that, they say, it is shallow, it is not necessary, the master depicted the holes. By the way, it is easy to distinguish nobles from "expensive infantry" by them.

        Quote: abrakadabre
        Lacing up all chain mail to the armor makes no sense.
        Of course not, but no one did it. But to fix the back-chest, with "pre-navis" (by analogy with the waist overhang). You just haven't tried it, I assure you - it's convenient, I was surprised myself.

        Quote: abrakadabre
        The sketchy squares on the chest are in some cases the front chain valve, in others, various reinforcements on the chest.
        In some it is, and in some it is not. And the reinforcement was usually made by weaving, 2v6, 4v8 and a wire section, not 2v4 and in 2-3 layers (although it was so, but as an exception).

        Quote: abrakadabre
        In the 11-12 centuries, chest reinforcement plates were worn both over chain mail and tucked under it.
        Again, I repeat, it was, but very, very rarely.

        Quote: abrakadabre
        About zertsalny you went too far. Kg so on 15-20.
        Not a bit (I knew it), let's count: 1. chain mail of variable knitting-section (with sleeves, with a hood, with a valve, length up to the knee) -16-20 kg. 2. The mirror itself (not 4-6 plaques on the chest, namely the mirror, on good skin) - 6-9 kg. 3. Jericho - 1.6-4 kg. 4. Ringed stockings (not European "only in front", but normal "pipes") -2-4. 5. Arm-leggings ("boats") - 1-3 kg. 6. Well, if the status is a notch-chasing (silver-gold you know, heavy, infection) from 0 to 2-3 kg. So it turns out from 28 to 43 kg., And also a "palubas" six-fighter ali mace, saber ali broadsword, knife-dagger, bow with bells and whistles, well, actually ...

        Quote: abrakadabre
        Already gone the armor bullet race.
        There was no such race, everything became clear in some 20-25 years. And what is considered "bulletproof" is the essence of "sports and tournament".

        Quote: abrakadabre
        At the time of the "Maximilians" this armor was heavier than the eastern
        Quote: abrakadabre
        But about the Gothic armor - I agree. Very mobile and comfortable with a weight of 20-26 kg.
        No !, the Maximilian is the lightest. It originated from the "Goth" and by and large differed from it in proportions (it is more "inflated") and grooves "in solid", which made it possible to make the armor thinner and lighter with the same strength characteristics.
        1. padonok.71
          0
          26 May 2015 17: 34
          Here he is, a handsome Maximilian. But my love is Churburg.
        2. 0
          26 May 2015 18: 08
          Here are depicted warriors on the "Norwegian carpet" from Baldishol ...
        3. +1
          27 May 2015 06: 26
          Yes, in one of the battles - there is a text, the Novgorodians were so heavily armed that they could not raise their hands on the regiments of the Moscow Prince. In what laziness to look, but it is 15 century and for the text I answer.
          1. 0
            20 July 2015 03: 00
            Yes, in one of the battles - there is a text, the Novgorodians were so heavily armed that they could not raise their hands on the regiments of the Moscow Prince. In what laziness to look, but it is 15 century and for the text I answer.

            In the very one where Mr. V.Novgorod has lost its square.
        4. 0
          27 May 2015 08: 53
          I would say many. Here's an example: Moreover, pay attention that the one on the horse is not belted and this is logical.
          Not a drop. Because the rider also needs to wave his sword. Sometimes a lot and a long time. And this is not harnessed chain mail much more difficult.
          Just the same "mabuta", because of the low estate and poverty, often did not have a sword and in the mass worked with a spear in close formation. That is, there is no need to raise your elbow above your head. And to do just such movements, with an arm raised high, an unbelted chain mail very much interferes and tires.
          But to fix the back-chest, with "pre-navis"
          extremely entertaining exercise. No, if you follow the principle, it is possible to do this: the squire will crawl to his master very far under the spit, find the lacing on the under-arm there, then gently push the ends of the laces through the weaving ... And so on until all the strings on the chest-back are exhausted ... Theoretically possible, but looks like brushing your teeth not through the mouth, but on the other hand, through the entire intestinal tract.
          I repeat - the belt is belted.
          let's count
          Let's:
          1. Where did you find 16-20 kg there? Yes, even with a hood and to the knees? Mirror is a late complex. The hood was not used in the region of use of the grain armor. Moreover, the coifs are 10-14 centuries, and the mirror is 15-17. Chain mail under the mirror - up to 10 kg maximum.
          2. 4-6 kg is not the mirror itself - a big round thing on the belly-bottom of the chest and the same on the back. This is the weight of all the mirror armor (for example: http://img.encyc.yandex.net/illustrations/rges/pictures/2-027-01.jpg). In fact - an integral cuirass.
          3. Erichonka in 4 kg - bust. The upper bar is not more than 3 kg.
          4. Ringed stockings - this is for you firstly, to Western Europe, and secondly, to completely different centuries in relation to the grain armor. In reality: bahtz leggings or long floors of stuffed caftan. Sometimes (!) Padded with iron. Closing our eyes add 4 kg.
          5. I agree. Bazubands (bracers) and butyrlyks (leggings) all weigh so much together.
          6. Will give out fantastic! Chasing is, roughly speaking, artistic corrugation with patterns. Doesn’t add anything to the weight of the armor. The original shape of the part simply changes. The notch patterns are very shallow, otherwise the base metal will be cut. At best, you will drive 50 grams of gold into a notch of armor. Well, walk, walk like that - 100 grams ...
          What did we get? - about 20-26 kg on the upper bar.
        5. +1
          27 May 2015 08: 53
          Now weapons:
          1. Six-mace - 500-900 grams (actually impact apple 300-500 grams). Tales of pood clubs, leave the children.
          2. Saber Ali broadsword - up to 1.5 kg per copy. More often 900-1300 grams.
          3. Knife dagger - up to 500 grams.
          4. Onions with accessories - 3-4 kg and are often attached to the saddle.

          There was no such race, everything became clear for some 20-25 years.
          What are you saying!!! The first bowls and arquebuses - the 14th century. Out of use of Lance - the end of the 15th beginning of the 16th century. Out of use of full knight armor from use on the battlefield is the end of the 16th-beginning of the 17th centuries.

          No !, the Maximilian is the lightest. It came from the "Goth" and by and large differed from it in proportions (it is more "inflated") and grooves "in solid"
          That is, it took more metal to him than to Gothic, but is it lighter? Despite the fact that the booking area has increased to a maximum. An interesting perdimonocle ...
          In Gothic, the area of ​​unarmored zones is higher than in other types: the inner surface of the biceps, elbow, forearm, inner and half of the back of the thigh, the bevor does not have the back of the neck (protection is only due to the butt plate of the salad), large axillary openings on the cuirass.
          The lightest and most mobile is gothic. Milan and Maximilian share second place.
          1. Elk
            Elk
            0
            28 May 2015 07: 49
            There was no such race, everything became clear in some 20-25 years. And what is considered "bulletproof" is the essence

            What are you saying!!! The first bowls and arquebuses - the 14th century. Out of use of Lance - the end of the 15th beginning of the 16th century.

            Exactly what was! It just lasted more than 100 years. The first handbraces, which appeared in the 14th century, really could not break through full armor at distances over 50m. But further improvement of gunpowder, metallurgy and mechanics allowed the creation of an arquebus, and then, by the beginning of the 16th century, a musket appeared. This gun had a caliber from 12 to 4, mostly 10-8th, and threw a lead bullet weighing about 60 grams with an initial speed of about 300 m / s. No armor could resist this pill at a distance of 300 m.
            1. 0
              28 May 2015 09: 29
              And there was a canister of guns ...
              1. Elk
                Elk
                0
                28 May 2015 17: 28
                And there was a canister of guns ...

                Guns are a separate issue ...
                1. 0
                  29 May 2015 07: 19
                  Guns are a separate issue ...
                  But it’s so-so as to the handbrake-bowler, and the muskets and armor. Relatively leveled only by a long loading procedure for firing on cavalry.
                  1. Elk
                    Elk
                    0
                    29 May 2015 14: 57
                    But it’s so-so as to the handbrake-bowler, and the muskets and armor. Relatively leveled only by a long loading procedure for firing on cavalry.

                    Yes, but the effectiveness of a cannon shot could not be compared with the effectiveness of hand-guns spitting out the same number of shells in terms of mass. Most importantly, the handbrake, in principle, could not ruin the knight’s castle, but the gun was complete.
  6. 0
    26 May 2015 14: 29
    I made myself a chain mail from grover washers, 10 is the most, you anneal ... a vest made of plates, article 3, thickness 2 mm, cold rolled, turned out to be effective. By "youth". smile
    1. +2
      26 May 2015 18: 22
      A fascinating thing, especially when the time wagon.
      He also tried to make the iron wire difficult at first, but then, you won’t drag uuuu straight by the ears, the main thing is to knit the first 3 rows and that's it, they drove off.
      1. 0
        26 May 2015 18: 39
        Quote: cth; fyn
        A fascinating thing, especially when the time wagon.

        I burned the grover with a blowtorch but also used steel wire with a diameter of 1.5 mm, annealing using a welding transformer ....
        1. 0
          26 May 2015 18: 43
          Did you do the functional? and I just learned to spin, nadybal 2mm wire, wound it on my finger, bit off the pliers, I'm ready, tomorrow I’ll show it
          1. 0
            26 May 2015 18: 54
            Quote: cth; fyn
            Did you do the functional?

            Yes, I have a metal shop, I’ve made a grover from my youth, the district ... but just like that.
            Quote: cth; fyn
            I screwed it on a finger, took a bite of pastas ready, tomorrow I’ll show it

            I twisted steel wire onto a rod, a lathe and a welder.
            Now mainly doors, bars, stairs, boilers .... and so on.
            Two turning, milling, two gelotins, rollers, contact welding and so on ...
            1. +1
              27 May 2015 16: 09
              Something like this happened, 1k4.
              1. 0
                28 May 2015 10: 02
                Compare the weave density with the "heavy" weave: 4-in-1 weave, 1: 4.5 weave
          2. 0
            27 May 2015 08: 59
            From the annealed wire (grover), the information is poorly functional - it is strewed from bumps. Only if riveted.
            1. Elk
              Elk
              0
              28 May 2015 17: 46
              Annealing 65G is a perversion and killing a good piece of iron.
              1. 0
                29 May 2015 07: 24
                Annealing 65G is a perversion and killing a good piece of iron.
                If the hands are crooked, then working with iron is generally contraindicated.
                Strongly hardened blades must be repeatedly annealed. And before the first hardening, it is necessary to anneal. To relieve internal stresses from forging.
                Just a normal blacksmith takes measures from burning carbon from steel.
                1. Elk
                  Elk
                  0
                  29 May 2015 15: 01
                  Just a normal blacksmith takes measures from burning carbon from steel.

                  Yeah. I use salt baths myself.
    2. 0
      27 May 2015 08: 57
      Why bother to grow an aver? He weaves perfectly and so. At the same time and stronger.
      Vest from plates (actually Yushman or a calendar) 2 mm plates - bust even for ST3 winked All the same, chain gaps, splice places miss. A thinner plate dampens in the same way and remains intact. And from klevets and 2 mm will not save. Optimal for st3 - 1.5 mm.
  7. 0
    26 May 2015 17: 53
    in general, chain mail is an interesting creation of mankind, protects against saber attacks but is useless against chopping and direct strikes.
    Breastplate, more effective protection.
    Here's the question about Lake Peipsi, some in chain mail others in armor, plates.
    To tie the chain mail in the form of a jelly, it took 12 kg of washers, M10. One central washer, four ..., there is also a "knitting". The weight is decent ...
    Another matter of armor or cuirass is more effective protection.
    That would be to learn about the protection of Japanese samurai.
    and so stitching, like awl chain mail does not protect.
    1. +1
      26 May 2015 18: 11
      In the middle of the 13th century in Europe, the production of plate armor had just begun, while the Novgorod warrior (not a militia) was often "dressed" heavier than some of the knights-dogs. The "scales" over the dense padding were heavier than European chain mail.
      1. +1
        26 May 2015 18: 45
        Quote: Temer
        was often "dressed" heavier than some dog knights

        Temir iron.
        Simply, under the armor they wore a "buffer type" made of felt, felt, which absorbed the blow.
        By the way, it’s also interesting from where the drawing of sheep’s wool came to the West and Russia ...
        Postcryptum, my family still has chain mail, the 18th century, after the Dzungar invasion.
        1. padonok.71
          +1
          26 May 2015 19: 23
          Quote: marshes
          felt that absorbed the blow.
          felt - without reason. Steganka - yes. I could not restrain myself - aime sori (
          1. 0
            26 May 2015 21: 49
            Quote: padonok.71
            felt - without reason. Quilted yes

            And what was the quilted bag made of?
            Filling is not swan's down, by the way I have downy feather-duck, chicken.
            In general, it is interesting that they used it in ancient Russia. And what and how they prepared food, Methods.
            Nomadic, I basically know, so far the cooking method has changed little.
            1. padonok.71
              0
              26 May 2015 22: 56
              Quote: marshes
              And what was the quilted bag made of?
              Quote: marshes
              Filling is not swan's down, by the way I have downy feather-duck, chicken.

              They made a quilted hat (gambizon, akiton, purple, etc.), flax top-bottom, padding, somewhere around 13, batting (here they are quilted jackets!), Thin skin, burlap. Layers were made from 2-3 to 20 (maybe more), worn under armor and armor and instead of armor.

              Quote: marshes
              In general, it is interesting that they used it in ancient Russia.
              WHERE? WHEN? very broad question.

              Quote: marshes
              And what and how the food was prepared, Methods.
              Here I pass, I can eat and drink in three throats, and I can only cook fried eggs and pasta recourse
            2. 0
              27 May 2015 06: 10
              Cooking has just changed dramatically. According to the Christian faith of that time, it was forbidden to grind food, they were cooked whole! Under Ivan the Terrible, on pain of death, it was forbidden to "eat grouse" and stuff sausages. At the beginning of the 20th century, our peasants did not eat roosters and hares!
              1. 0
                20 July 2015 03: 09
                At the beginning of the 20th century, our peasants did not eat roosters and hares!


                And Nekrasov lied? !!! About grandfather Mazay ??
            3. 0
              27 May 2015 09: 02
              Historical padding of quilts and other "quilted jackets": tow, hair (wool), flax brushes, in a later period cotton wool.
            4. Elk
              Elk
              0
              28 May 2015 18: 22
              And what was the quilted bag made of?

              Two strips of fabric, and usually horsehair between them. Tightly packed, but not felt.
            5. 0
              20 July 2015 03: 06
              by the way, I have downy feather-duck, chicken.
              In general, it is interesting that in ancient Russia they used


              Best of all is goose down. Or a swan.
        2. 0
          27 May 2015 06: 08
          What a score. This is such a rarity that at Sotheby’s auction ... I can’t even say how much it costs!
        3. 0
          27 May 2015 09: 00
          Felt - no. He is not flexible. And in the undercoat, one must not only stand under the blows, but also do something himself.
          1. Elk
            Elk
            0
            28 May 2015 18: 51
            Felt - no. He is not flexible.

            It depends on which felt. It can be very flexible.
            1. 0
              29 May 2015 07: 26
              It depends on which felt. It can be very flexible.
              You can pull a hedgehog on a snake ...
              Felt in Europe did not. They made cloth. But this is a completely different story.
              1. Elk
                Elk
                0
                29 May 2015 16: 14
                You can pull a hedgehog on a snake ...

                And get half a meter of barbed wire. Very useful in the household equipment.
                Felt in Europe did not. They made cloth. But this is a completely different story.

                So the question was about felt ...
              2. Elk
                Elk
                0
                31 May 2015 16: 01
                Felt in Europe did not.

                In Europe, why the hell didn’t ...
              3. 0
                20 July 2015 03: 10
                Felt in Europe did not. They made cloth. But this is a completely different story.

                Not felt, but felt. But this is indeed a completely different story.
    2. 0
      27 May 2015 06: 06
      Will you about samurai in all details ...
  8. +1
    26 May 2015 18: 31
    In general, nothing new, the article is so-so.
    Generally, the essence of the chain mail made of rolled rings is not clear, tk. it is the same as it is not. In case of collapsed chain mail, when struck, especially a stabbing one, the rings straighten out allowing the blow to pass, but riveted and welded chain mail is another matter, until the weld or rivet "trembles" the wound.
    Weaving chain mail is quite exciting and simple, even after just watching the pictures in a couple of hours you are already figuring ring after ring, I don’t think that the warrior couldn’t fix it or even do it, it was quite capable, if I can, a modern person can , what can we say about a medieval warrior?
    I advise everyone to try weaving chain mail, this is really cool!
    1. 0
      27 May 2015 09: 05
      In general, the essence of chain mail from the reduced rings is not clear, because it is the same as it is not. In a collapsed chain mail, upon impact, especially stabbing, the rings straighten out, skipping a beat
      Everything falls into place if you take a shield in your hands. Chain mail (information) perfectly protects against accidental cuts and cuts at the end of the amplitude. The main load will be borne by the shield.
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. padonok.71
    +2
    26 May 2015 19: 27
    Quote: marshes
    That would be to learn about the protection of Japanese samurai.
    When comparing with Europe, Russia and even the Arabs - in fact, there is nothing to talk about. Sad it is, these Nipon armor.
    1. +1
      26 May 2015 19: 48
      Quote: padonok.71
      When comparing with Europe, Russia and even the Arabs - in fact, there is nothing to talk about. Sad it is, these Nipon armor.

      It’s amazing, according to the spirits, I visited my mother’s relatives, Mari El, and went to the local museum of local lore.
      The Tatars didn’t conquer their strange neighbors, but they had weapons, though they weren’t made of iron, sticks, bows and armor made of wood, but it’s strange, although they have lived all their lives in forests and still worship (although the Russian Orthodox Church has been trying, until fig churches according to tuned) forest spirits. They are probably still in the Russian Federation are considered the largest pagan community.
      And the Tatars knew iron very well ... And also casting ...
      1. padonok.71
        +1
        26 May 2015 23: 10
        Quote: marshes
        but they had weapons, though not of iron, sticks, bows and armor made of wood.
        saw Evenk armor - wood, leather, whalebone. But thought out! Done! I was very surprised.
        Quote: marshes
        And the Tatars knew iron very well ... And also casting ...
        Of course, they knew, of course, no doubt, but no one knows these Tatars themselves. Who is it? Where from? I'm not talking about modern Tatars (whether Crimean or Kazan). I'm talking about those who are the Mongol-Tatar yoke. By the way, the Mongols (those who live in Mongolia) found out that they, along with the Tatars, were the lords of half of the ecumenical community from Europeans, already in modern times. Strange, don’t you? How to forget this? On European engravings, Tatars are generally depicted as Russian peasants. Like this.
        1. 0
          20 July 2015 03: 13
          but no one knows these Tatars themselves. Who is it? Where from? I'm not talking about modern Tatars (whether Crimean or Kazan). I'm talking about those who are the Mongol-Tatar yoke. By the way, the Mongols (those who live in Mongolia) found out that they, along with the Tatars, were the lords of half of the ecumenical community from Europeans, already in modern times. Strange, don’t you? How to forget this?

          Read L. Gumilyova. Clever man.
    2. 0
      27 May 2015 09: 06
      When comparing with Europe, Russia and even the Arabs - in fact, there is nothing to talk about. Sad it is, these Nipon armor.
      It all depends on the specific instance of the armor. And a specific historical period. By design and degree of protection - a complete analogue of the European small-plate brigant (such as Leeds).
      Cheaper, large-plate ё-swarms are also comparable to simpler large-plate brigants (all sorts of Chalkis and Visby).
      1. 0
        27 May 2015 09: 29
        Strange in the phrase
        By design and degree of protection ... -
        the site's robot cut out the name of the Japanese armor "yoroi" (now I had to insert the Angian letter). It seems that this term is not abusive. Why didn't the censors let him in?
  11. 0
    26 May 2015 19: 31
    At the expense of knives, those that have been many reforged, bespontovye. They have a lot of cracks in the structure. Even Dagestanis do not wear "Damascus" on blades with the help of a laser.
    normal knives, daggers up to 60 years of production and bayonet knives AK, AKM ...
    At the moment there are a lot of chic knives on sale, shops, imported ones. Not bad at whom the handles from cordura, sentic rubber.
    and stick the knife in .... stand on the handle if it does not break, bends, a good knife. And for hunters and fishers it is better to have several knives. smile
  12. 0
    26 May 2015 22: 46
    I read the article and comments and learned a lot of interesting things from the creation of armor.
    Thanks, experts! good
  13. 0
    27 May 2015 10: 14
    Thank. Articles are very interesting. I always confused between
    chain mail and types of scaly protection.
    1. 0
      27 May 2015 11: 52
      Well, at least someone does not write that I am working out here the grants of the State Department, ha ha!
      1. 0
        27 May 2015 12: 14
        There are a lot of empty talkers in the world. and even more so on the Internet. It’s easy and unpunished.
      2. Elk
        Elk
        0
        28 May 2015 19: 18
        The namesake, I would be very grateful, at the expense of the State Department, but alas, they do not pay ... Bastards in a word. lol
        1. 0
          29 May 2015 07: 28
          The namesake, I would be very grateful, at the expense of the State Department, but alas, they do not pay ... Bastards in a word.
          The State Department has a different specialization. That is, if you fall into politics, then the State Department will become more generous. And then, only if you take an unpatriotic position.
          1. Elk
            Elk
            0
            29 May 2015 14: 43
            Alas, you have to be interested in politics, or she will be interested in you ...
            I have a peculiar patriotism. Very little consistent with the official line. But the truth is even less consistent with the line of the Washington Regional Committee. Therefore, I can’t wait for free money ... Pichalka, as one acquaintance says ... request
  14. 0
    28 May 2015 15: 08
    There is sense even from the lightest chain mail. The reason is the material. With a sharp blade, you can strip a quilted jacket or even a leather jacket. But not chain mail, here sharpness will not play a special role. This should be especially evident at a time when there were no problems with metal and its processing, and cold steel was still in use, i.e. here and there until the 19th century. In fiction (the same Dumas) there are references to light chain mail, which even during storage lost their rings. Those. most likely made of steel hardened wire, without soldering / riveting rings. It is the easiest to produce. And it is unlikely that they were stored as some kind of relic.
    1. 0
      29 May 2015 17: 16
      Dumas, that still a storyteller, read Don Quixote of Sarvantes, then you will look at Dumas as a sort of pulp fiction.
      1. 0
        31 May 2015 10: 27
        I know that a storyteller. But the moment with the use of relatively cheap chain mail of simplified production in the late Middle Ages looks quite real. If there is a steel wire of almost machine-made production, then labor costs can be reduced by an order of magnitude using simple bending and hardening instead of ring riveting. At low density 1v4 such a chain mail can weigh 1-1,5kg. But the result is the same - you can’t gut it with one motion of the owner’s hand.
  15. +1
    29 May 2015 11: 51
    Thanks for the article. Without it, there would not be such an interesting comment. winked
    And the question about the modern reconstruction of the appearance of the Roman legionnaire in chain mail.
    more precisely three feel
    Did the Roman infantry wear such short chain mail? And why?
    Did it weigh 12-13kg?
    I don’t see an analogue of the medieval pododešnik In Antiquity they did not wear it?
    The question is not idle is really interesting.
    1. 0
      29 May 2015 17: 17
      Indeed, and a pododešnik, at least a leather jacket or quilted what
    2. +1
      29 May 2015 19: 14
      The question was studied. And the conclusion: they wore chain mail over ... tunics of unbleached linen for privates, red for centurions and blue (!) For the Marine Corps - "landing ships"! There were no quilts! The length of the chain mail is set exactly. The renovation was carried out by the reputable English organization Ermine Street Guard. I don't know how much the chain mail weighs in the photo. At first glance, 9 kg or so. I emphasize once again - they did not wear quilts - this is the south, it is hot in Italy.
  16. 0
    31 May 2015 10: 39
    Quote: kalibr
    wore chain mail over ... a tunic of unbleached linen for privates, red for centurions and blue (!) for the marines - "landing ships"!

    In theory, then, from salt sweat in the heat with such a sock, iron chain mail should lose strength in one season already. The wire is thin, for it is critical every millimeter emitted by rust. And the tunic in the first week to acquire a steady rusty color, mowing down under the centurion. You can of course oily tunic, but after a while it thoroughly reeks. And sweating under it will have almost the same as under the skin. Although the reenactors know better. I was just dealing with iron. That iron, which is simpler, rusts even just in the air, if not coated with oil or wax.
    1. 0
      20 July 2015 03: 20
      In theory, then, from salt sweat in the heat with such a sock, iron chain mail should lose strength in one season already.

      Legion dressed in armor only before the fight. And on the march - carried on a stick behind. In battle, of course, sweat and blood. But then they cleaned it.

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