Three “Ice Battles” (part two)

78
Surprisingly, it is today, when all the texts of the ancient Russian chronicles are published, and besides, there is the Internet, in the textbook for the 4 class of the secondary school A.A. Pleshakova and E.A. Kryuchkov wrote literally the following: “The battle began on April 5 1242. The Russian warriors fought hard. It was difficult to restrain the onslaught of the knights, chained in heavy armor. But it turned out that the knights, having managed to crush the center of the Russian forces, themselves were trapped. Knocked together, they became easy prey. Like a whirlwind, Russian cavalry flew from its sides. The knights fluttered and began to retreat. Many, because of their heavy armor, drowned in the lake, going under the ice with their horses. 50 captured knights were shamefully carried through the streets of Novgorod. "

Three “Ice Battles” (part two)
"The Philistines remove armor from Saul." Since the miniatures for this manuscript belonged to the same time as the "Ice Battle", it is difficult to argue that the knights "were chained in heavy armor." They then simply did not exist! Thumbnail from the Bible of Macieus. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum, New York




Needless to say, patriotism is a good thing, and if necessary, it is patriotism that requires a citizen to die for the Motherland, but he does not demand to lie for her sake, because lying is the very last thing. And here we meet a real lie in the textbook for fourth-graders, and, alas, everything seems to be the way it should, because “knightly dogs” are “bad”. Yes, bad, yes, they are invaders, but why cheat children? They could not have lied, and the significance of the battle would not have diminished in the least!

By the way, they, before writing this, should have seen a very interesting article in the newspaper ... Pravda for 5 April 1942. Then there was the Great Patriotic War, the battle turned exactly 700 years, the Soviet press appealed to the glorious stories of our Motherland, Stalin himself suggested inspiring the memory of our glorious ancestors, but Pravda editorial (and you can imagine what the Pravda editorial did mean in those years ?!) there is not a word about sinking the knights in Lake Peipsi. That is, Stalinist propagandists understood the difference between the movie and ... the real story, but for some reason, today's authors of school textbooks do not!

Yes, but where did these knights sinking in the lake come from, clinging to ice floes and blowing bubbles? Did S. Eisenstein come up with all this? But no, it turns out that in the history of the confrontation of the Russian principalities of the expansion of the Teutonic Order to the East, there was such a battle in which the order riders actually fell through the ice, really was, only this happened ... much earlier than the “Ice Battle”!

The same ancient Russian chronicles tell us that in 1234, eight years before the “Ice Battle”, Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich from Pereyaslavl came with Nizovsky regiments and with Novgorod invaded the lands of the Order of the Swords, near the city of Yuriev, but did not besiege him. Knights left Yuriev, but were defeated in battle. Some of them immediately returned to the city, but the other, which was pursued by Russian warriors, fell on the ice of the Emaygi River. The ice fell, and these warriors drowned. In the history of this battle, the name “Battle on the Omovzhe” was named, and according to the German name of the river - “The Battle of Embach”. Well, the very content of the Novgorod chronicle looks like this: “Ida Prince Yaroslav on Nemtsy under Yuriev, and a hundred did not reach the city ... Prince Yaroslav bisha them ... on the river on Omizhezh Nemtsy broke off” (i.e. failed under the ice!) *

Obviously, in preparing for the shooting of the film, S. Eisenstein read all the Russian chronicles of this period, and received relevant comments from historians who explained to him what it means to "break the Germans." And the fact that the image of warriors drowning in the polynyas seemed to him dramatic in the highest degree and cinematographically very advantageous, can be considered undoubted. Here you can see, so to speak, the “hand of fate”. After all, it was not for nothing that Soviet newspapers at that time almost openly reported that even nature was on the side of Soviet working people and collective farmers. After all, "in Soviet Ukraine - a rich harvest, and in Western Ukraine - extreme crop failure" **. Here is only in the “Rhymed Chronicle” that the dead fell into the grass, but since there is no grass in April, we are talking about the thickets of dry reeds bordering the shores of the lake. That is, the Russian soldiers were on the shore, but the army of the order approached them on the ice of the lake. That is, the battle could not have been entirely on the ice, although the chronicles tell us that it was ice that was filled with blood!


Knight-monk - "a warrior for the faith" (Christian), and suddenly - in a helmet with horns?


But the battle on the ice, though on the ice of the sea, in the history of the confrontation between the Slavs and the Teutonic Order was also, moreover, it could be called the “Ice Battle” with far greater reason.


The Battle of Forbi, 1244. The Templars are defeated by the Muslims. Miniature from the "Big Chronicle" by Matthew Paris. Around 1250. Equipment of Crusaders and Muslims is clearly shown (British Library)


And it was like this that in 1268, the Novgorodians decided to go on a campaign against Lithuania, but they argued over whom to lead the campaign, which is why it never took place. But the Danish possessions were attacked, the Russians approached the Rakvere Castle (Rakovor), but they could not take it and asked Grand Prince Vladimir Yaroslav Yaroslavich for help. He sent his sons and other princes, and in Novgorod began collecting siege machines for the future assault on the city. Order bishops and knights from Riga, Viljandi and Yuriev arrived in Novgorod, asked for peace and promised that they would not help the peasants, but the oath (even on the cross), but this heretic, the knights, the oath was not considered. Therefore, their army soon left Yuriev, and, united with the Danes, rose up against the Russian troops on the left flank. The Danes were on the right flank, and in the center was the legendary German "pig." In the Novgorod Chronicle there is a story, which is not in the Chronicle, about the fierce battle of the Novgorodians with the “iron regiment” of the knights, in which the Novgorod mayor and the 13 boyars, tysyatsky, and the 2 boyar were also missing.

Meanwhile, the Russians managed to inflict a powerful counter-attack on the enemy. The Livonian Chronicle reports that 5000 warriors participated in it, but the knights managed to stop it. Our chronicle reports that the Russians won, and pursued the enemy running seven miles (seven everywhere, isn’t that so amazing ?!) up to Rakovor itself along three roads at once, since “horses could not walk on corpses”.


Typical helmets are sallet or salad, but, alas, not from that era.


By evening, a detachment of German soldiers came to the aid of the Germans, but only plundered the Novgorod wagon train. The Russians decided to wait for the morning to fight with them, but the Germans retreated in time. For three days the Russian troops stood at the walls of Rakovor, but they did not dare to storm the city. Meanwhile, the Pskov squad of Prince Dovmont invaded Livonia, destroying the ruins of the knights and capturing the prisoners. So he avenged them for previous attacks on the lands of his principality.

In 1269, the order troops launched a retreat, 10 days unsuccessfully besieged Pskov, but then retreated, learning that the Novgorod army was approaching the city with Prince Yury at the head. Both sides agreed on peace, because after this defeat, the orders could no longer threaten the stronger princedoms of North-Western Russia, and the Lithuanians in turn began to threaten him!

Lithuania in the Russian chronicles was first mentioned in the 1009 year, but only around the 1183 year merged into a single state. But even later, in the thirteenth century, both Lithuanians and Prussians continued to be pagans and did not want to be baptized. But for freedom it was necessary to pay and repel attacks both from the west and from the east. But the Lithuanians fought hard for their independence and the faith of their fathers, and were baptized only in 1367 year. In peacetime, they lived in farms and cattle breeding, but they had enough money to buy expensive iron ore. weapon. Often, Lithuanian riders also had large plots, which were partly leased out to personally free peasant communal peasants who fought in the infantry.

The army (karias) of the Lithuanians was tribal. Moreover, the saddle of the Lithuanian riders were more comfortable than the knight. In the summer they often made predatory raids for prey, but did not seize foreign lands. Fighting with them, the knights soon realized that fighting with such an enemy is best not in summer, but in winter, when rivers freeze and you can walk along them like on the way.
True, the Lithuanians skied like the Finns and fought on them! Men with such winter raids were usually killed, so as not to drive "full" in the snow. But women and children were taken with them, although because of them they had to go back slowly.

On one of these trips, the Lithuanians decided to go in the winter of 1270, on the day of the winter solstice. The Estonian Bishop Herman von Buckhovden, learned about the troops from Lithuania, and immediately sent the troops of Bishop Tartu, Danes from northern Estonia and a squad of knights of the Teutonic Order, led by Otto von Litterburg - Master of the Order in Livonia.

Ironically, the crusaders who marched to Lake Peipsi were also led by the Bishop of Tartu, also Herman, and also ... the uncle of this very von Buchkhoden. But the young Herman, apparently, did not know that he was being met by the army of the Grand Duke of Lithuania Treydenius, and that there were many Russian soldiers and veterans of past battles with the Crusaders, and they were all very determined.

16 February 1270 on the ice of the frozen Baltic Sea, the opposing forces met, and a hot battle ensued. The Lithuanians were surrounded by sleds, and their opponents lined up in three groups: the Teutonic Order's cavalry in the center, the bishop stood on the left flank, and the Danes on the right. It is known that the knights, who stood in the center, treated their allies with disdain and attacked the Lithuanians first, not waiting until all three detachments came out at the same time. Before the Danes approached them, the Lithuanians apparently crippled many horses, and the knights, without the support of infantry, could do nothing with them. Here the Lithuanians (most likely already with cavalry forces) began to surround the Livonian infantry and the surviving Teutonic knights. But here they came to the aid of the cavalry of the Danes and Bishop Herman. In the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle, this is written like this: “It was a wild horse killing and massacre on both sides, of Christians and pagans.
And the blood of people from both armies was spilled on the ice.
It was a fierce battle in which many human heads were chopped up.
The best (Master Otto) and 52 of good warrior monks are killed in the battle. ”

Christian sources report that the Crusaders lost six hundred people, and the Lithuanians - 1600! Therefore, the “battlefield”, if it can be said so about the surface of the frozen sea, was left for the knights, but their losses were so great that they felt the victory was not as complete as they would like. Here it should be noted that this battle helped the Lithuanians to gain national unity. But the Prussians on this path failed, and soon only one name remained of them.

Interestingly, it was David Nicole who wrote 20 years ago about Lithuanian military affairs of the 13th century. a very interesting article reporting a lot of interesting details. For example, the battles between the fighting detachments of the Lithuanian tribes usually took place in the form of a group duel. The warriors fought on foot, and in case of defeat they retreated to the horses, and sought refuge in flight. The main thing was to attack the enemy unexpectedly, throwing darts at a gallop and immediately retreating - these were the methods used by the Estonians, Lithuanians and Balts, and used saddles of a suitable device with a gentle back bow ***.

Their main weapon was a sword, mainly made in Germany, but the handle was locally made. Found handles made of iron and bronze with silver overlay ornaments. Moreover, metallographic analysis showed that the tips of spears and darts in Lithuania were imported from Scandinavia, but some were made by local blacksmiths. They were even made of Damascus steel. That is, the technology of welding damask was familiar to Lithuanian blacksmiths.

The main armor was chain mail, which was worn under warm outerwear and on top of it. Helmets - spheroconic, typical Eastern European. Shields - traditional, pan-European form. As for the famous "Lithuanian pavez" - that is, a shield with a hand chute in the middle, then the Lithuanians did not have it. The Lithuanians borrowed this shield from the north-eastern regions of Poland, where it became known in the middle of the 13th century. It should be emphasized that the Lithuanian cavalry played a very important role in the historic battle of Grunwald, when the military power of the Teutonic Order was very much undermined!


The battle scene from the Kholkhem hand-drawn Bible. Around 1326 - 1327
It shows the warriors with baklerah shields, the same as in the film "Alexander Nevsky", but the difference in time is almost 80 years.


So, most likely, the concept of the Alexander Nevsky movie by film director S. Eisenstein was based on the history of all these three battles in a revised and ideologically adjusted form. Well, his talent has done his job and as a result, his entire artistic fiction has been preserved even in 2014 school textbooks of the year! And, of course, very few people notice that from a historical point of view in this film there are many historical inconsistencies. Some of his characters are not dressed in the costumes that they should have been dressed in. The traitor Tverdilo it is not clear why he was dressed up in a cuirass, but they were not yet worn at that time. The slits on the helmets of the "knight-dogs" who had the shape of a cross are not really found. The T-shaped slit on the knight's helmets was, but in the shape of a cross - a clear author's invention. And Tophel helmets were assembled from 5 parts, and yet they weren't that much like buckets!


The traitor Tverdilo Ivankovich in mixed-type armor.


By the way, this film found its adepts even in other countries, national directors began to make historical films similar to it according to the plan. The second after “Alexander Nevsky” was the film “Kaloyan”, shot in Bulgaria in 1963 year. His plot is as follows: the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan fights with the Byzantines, the traitorous Bulgarians, and smashes the Western European crusaders, who have bucket-shaped helmets on their heads. Moreover, the events of this film refer to the 1205 year, when these helmets have not yet entered the military "fashion"! But, on what you will not go for the sake of a beautiful myth and an impressive frame? Therefore, the gilded "buckets" of the knights, and the solid-forged shell and helmet-bascinet on Tsar Kaloyan (appeared two centuries later) are such "trifles" that they do not even deserve attention!


Quite a funny helmet on the knight-crusader 1205


It should be noted that the “knight dogs” of the Teutonic Order in Russia received their nickname only six centuries later and that was due to the incorrect translation of the works of Karl Marx into Russian. The founder of the communist teachings used in relation to these knights the noun "monk", which they were, but in German it turned out to be consonant with the word "dog"!
By the way, one should hardly attribute Alexander Nevsky and the phrase about the destruction of the enemies of the Russian land by the sword. That is, of course, he could well have said something like that — why not, but in reality this is a phrase from the Bible recalled by S. Eisenstein. And, again, from the point of view of art, the fact that he invented it very well, therefore, this is how the reading and education (“bookishness”) of the legendary prince is once more emphasized! Thus, there is not the slightest humiliation of our military glory in reading the chronicles and following the facts that are known to historical science today. Do not underestimate anything, but do not exaggerate anything!

* PSRL (Complete Russian Chronicles Collection), IV, 30, 178.
** Where the lords reign // True. 24 December 1937. No.352. C.5
*** Nicolle, D. Raiders of the Ice War. Medieval Warfar: e Teutonic Knights ambush Lithuanian Raiders // Military illustrated. Vol. 94. March. 1996. Pp 26 - 29.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

78 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +7
    13 May 2015 06: 51
    "Yes, but where did these knights drowning in the lake come from, clinging to ice floes and blowing bubbles?"
    Author! In the comments to the last article, you doubted (did not find) in the text presented by one of the site visitors mentioning that the knights drowned.))) And there is a mention of this in the presented text. "And other istopasha" - that is how it is said in that text.))) And yet I did not understand ... is the article devoted to the criticism and analysis of feature films?)))
    1. +4
      13 May 2015 07: 07
      You pay attention to where this phrase. And she is from the Sofia 1-th chronicle written in the 15 century. It also says that 500 knights died. And in the Novgorod Chronicle of the senior izvoda - this is not the figure 400. Does this mean that over the years 200 added information? This is a typical secondary source. It is about primary. And not without reason in Pravda for 5 of April 1942, there is no reference to this chronicle. I did not give a link to the texts of the chronicles. This text is also there, but I didn’t write about it, thinking that it’s clear that the sources are important and which are not. Apparently, it is necessary to emphasize this ... And the criticism and analysis of historical and battle films is also useful, isn't it? You do not want to watch different fantasies?
      1. +9
        13 May 2015 07: 26
        Quote: kalibr
        And criticism and analysis of historical and battle films is also useful, isn't it?

        The film "Alexander Nevsky" was never considered a battle one. It is a fictional propaganda film.
        1. +1
          13 May 2015 08: 00
          In the same place "and" is put between words!
          1. -4
            13 May 2015 14: 33
            I propose recording the author of the article as enemies of the people. And act in accordance with article 58.
            1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +3
        13 May 2015 09: 04
        kalibr "You will notice where this phrase comes from."
        I started the conversation not about the primary or secondary source.))) But that you didn’t notice in the presented text and therefore asked the occasion a question.))) That's all.))) In this connection, the conclusion is that modern researchers may not be able to discern anything in other sources.))) Joke.)))
        "And criticism and analysis of historical and battle films is also useful, isn't it? You don't want to watch different fantasies, do you?"
        Maybe, maybe))) however, I grew up on this film and remember when the movie was going on in our club we went to it for two weeks. Then they made armor, shields and swords and fought all winter.))) They tried to fully reproduce the course of the battle. After our battles, leaky buckets still covered the approaches to the battlefield. True, fortunately no one drowned, the terrain is mountainous and there were no lakes there.))) By the way, the shape of the German helmets was very cool, I found a bucket of holes and made it ready. It’s more difficult with our cone.))) What’s there from the adhesive film that the roofs are covered ... twisted.))) I’m still wondering how each other’s eyes didn’t look up, I still remember how my mother looked at my battered one a shield made of aluminum.))) So that the film is of course fantasy)))) but one of my favorite films.
        1. +2
          13 May 2015 12: 40
          Imagine mine too, although it’s ridiculous to watch men in white shirts with shafts in their hands and without any supplies, without a bag behind their backs, go to war. But what music, yes?
      3. 0
        13 May 2015 12: 12
        Quote: kalibr
        But in the Novgorod annals of the elder editors - this is not even the number 400. Does this mean that information has been added over 200 years? This is a typical secondary source. We are talking about the primary.

        Such an approach seems to be logical at first glance, but only at first. Tatishchev V.N. All the Russian chronicles and manuscripts known at that time were at hand (by the way, he gives such a list in his work and the Sofia Chronicle is not mentioned there). Only here his motivation and reasoning have a different logic. The fact is that chronologically the annals almost all overlap and the reliability of the event is determined not by the seniority of the source, but by the frequency of the event in different sources and other points (this kind of cross-analysis). In a word, I have no reason not to trust Tatishchev’s logic, but to trust the author’s logic. There is a small but revealing remark about the Novgorod annals in his book
        1. 0
          13 May 2015 12: 59
          Do you call on the basis of the scriptures of Tatishchev to believe in miracles?
          1. 0
            13 May 2015 13: 15
            Quote: kalibr
            Do you call on the basis of the scriptures of Tatishchev to believe in miracles?

            Powerful answer. Is that all you can say?
            1. 0
              13 May 2015 15: 47
              In my opinion enough. Everything else in the PSRL.
          2. -1
            13 May 2015 13: 18
            Quote: kalibr
            Do you call on the basis of the scriptures of Tatishchev to believe in miracles?

            I am embarrassed to ask: and which of the historians is authority for you? The answer, I hope, will be indicative.
            1. +1
              13 May 2015 18: 26
              Well, for example, I.N. Danilevsky
              1. -1
                13 May 2015 21: 07
                Quote: kalibr
                Well, for example, I.N. Danilevsky

                As I expected, the answer is indicative. Now at least I understand who I'm dealing with. HSE means! We know this liberal nest.
                1. 0
                  14 May 2015 14: 24
                  Do you work there?
                  1. 0
                    14 May 2015 15: 22
                    God was merciful
                    1. 0
                      15 May 2015 17: 01
                      Then what's ... are you talking about what you don't know?
                      1. +1
                        16 May 2015 15: 01
                        You have some kind of kindergarten logic. With the same success, I can ask: what x ... write about events in which you did not take part? hi
                      2. -1
                        16 May 2015 15: 05
                        By the way, you still did not answer the question about the origin of the phrase in the Sofia Chronicle about the self-seer of the Battle of Ice in 1242, who told the author of this chronicle the details of this battle
                      3. 0
                        16 May 2015 22: 06
                        I am a historian by education. About samovidtsa and nothing to write, it came from something previous. But from what? This is not the case with Tatishchev. And what is the dispute about? The fact that in the oldest chronicles there is no drowning, and in a later edition it appeared. Is not it? And where does the samovidets?
                      4. 0
                        17 May 2015 16: 51
                        Quote: kalibr
                        I am a historian by education. About samovidtsa and nothing to write, it came from something previous. But from what? This is not the case with Tatishchev. And what is the dispute about? The fact that in the oldest chronicles there is no drowning, and in a later edition it appeared. Is not it? And where does the samovidets?

                        I don’t know, maybe we don’t understand each other - I’ll try to explain the logic of our reasoning.
                        1. Tatishchev lived 300 years ago, was a high-ranking government official (secret adviser, in fact a representative of the special services), had access to documents, manuscripts, and chronicles that ordinary mortals were unlikely to see. A man possessed a fairly strong logical thinking, this can be seen from the description given in his work of how a historian should work with materials in order to isolate the truth from a huge array of information.
                        2. The probability of seeing the original chronicle 300 years ago was higher than in the 20th and 21st centuries.
                        3. Tatishchev had at his disposal the Novgorod and other annals and clearly understood the time of their origin. At the same time, describing such an event as the Battle of Ice in 1242, cites chronicles that, in your opinion, are not reliable, because 200 years after the aforementioned event was born, although there is supposedly almost a report on the battle of the Novgorod priest (like Tatishchev) John.
                        4. So about Tatishchev’s self-seer, there is, v. 4, p. 11 (attached)
                        Hence the conclusion: either the reliability of the PSRL publication is in doubt, or Tatishchev decided for some selfish purpose to misinform the public. The puncture in the Sofia first annals turns out to be obvious, since the author, being in his right mind, will never write what he heard from the self-seer (that is, he did not read, but was told in the first person) about the event 200 years ago.
                        And if so, then all your argumentation, based on the reliability of PSRL, you yourself understand what it costs.
                      5. 0
                        17 May 2015 16: 55
                        Here is an excerpt from the chronicle from Tatishchev, where there is infa about the self-seer
        2. 0
          13 May 2015 18: 25
          You want to say that I invented the Sofia chronicle? Or that Tatishchev did not consider her a worthy source, and therefore he did not put in his list?
          1. 0
            13 May 2015 20: 59
            Quote: kalibr
            You want to say that I invented the Sofia chronicle? Or that Tatishchev did not consider her a worthy source, and therefore he did not put in his list?

            What I wanted, I already said, namely: among the annals that Tatishchev used, there was no annals with the name Sofiyskaya (perhaps he named it differently). He has a five-page list of manuscripts describing the circumstances under which they fell into his hands.
            1. 0
              14 May 2015 07: 32
              Tatishchev died long ago. He did not even have a clue about the Novgorod birch bark letters, and did not know much of what was revealed later. Today, for us, the Sophia Chronicle is the source. We live - today! Hence, it is necessary to focus on the modern data of science.
              1. 0
                14 May 2015 09: 49
                Quote: kalibr
                Tatishchev died long ago. He did not even have a clue about the Novgorod birch bark letters, and did not know much of what was revealed later. Today, for us, the Sophia Chronicle is the source. We live - today! Hence, it is necessary to focus on the modern data of science.

                Can you explain the origin of the phrase in the annals (supposedly not Novgorod) that I quoted?
                "... Hear this from the self-seeker who was then tamo and tell ..." It turns out that the self-seeker is some kind of long-liver, lived at least 200 years and told about everything that he saw on the battlefield in 1242 to the author of the Sophia Chronicle, who lived in the 15th century. We must respect the ancient historians, they were at least as stupid as the present. Pride is a terrible sin, you know hi
                1. +2
                  14 May 2015 14: 25
                  Respect, but not bow before them! Ancient historians and about peseglavtsev wrote as a fact ...
                  1. 0
                    14 May 2015 18: 22
                    Not convincing. For interest, I compared two texts: Tatishchev's chronicle (the one that you identified as a piece of the 1st Sofia Chronicle) and the first Sofia Chronicle from the PSRL. I immediately drew attention to the difference in the language: the first is more ancient, the second is closer to our modern one. In addition, there is a difference in the content itself. Hence the question: is this one source? What do we know about the annals with which Tatishchev worked? And the most important thing that contradicts common sense: as the author of the Sofia Chronicle, the time of its appearance dates back to the 15th century. could write about the Battle of the Ice in 1242 "... Heard this from the self-seeker who was then tamo and tell us ..."
                    It's the same as what I write now: "I heard about the details of the Battle of Borodino in 1812 from an eyewitness." In my opinion, the reaction of others will be unambiguous. But, if I write that I heard from an eyewitness the details of the fighting in Slavyansk in the summer of 2014, it will not surprise anyone.
            2. 0
              16 May 2015 22: 32
              Climb into Google and find everything about it!
    2. +4
      13 May 2015 07: 18
      Quote: Nagaibak
      "Is the article devoted to criticism and analysis of feature films?)))


      The article is a place where you should not be at the cinematic forum in the kinolapy section.
      1. +9
        13 May 2015 08: 01
        And about the Battle of the Ice in 1270, wasn't it interesting to you to read? Is this a well-known fact?
    3. +3
      13 May 2015 07: 19
      Quote: Nagaibak
      And I still don’t understand ... the article is devoted to criticism and analysis of feature films?

      I wanted to ask the same question, but you got ahead.
      The shooting on the Potemkin Stairs in Odessa in the film "Battleship Potemkin" is fiction, but this scene is magnificent, people admire it. The way the ice floes turn over in the film can cause laughter when viewed from a technical point of view. But the author of the film does not care, the main thing for him is that the film takes his soul.
      Drown under the ice on the lake, or under the ice swamps on the shore, I do not see much difference.
      1. +5
        13 May 2015 07: 51
        From the point of view of cinema, the film is magnificent. But art and history are very different things. David's sculpture is one thing, and the real shepherd of that time is another ...
      2. +1
        13 May 2015 08: 40
        How the ice floes in a film turns over can cause laughter if you look at the film from a technical point of view.
        It is only and exclusively from the point of view of modern special effects.
        1. 0
          14 May 2015 09: 32
          Vyacheslav, serious accusations were made to you, but you ignored them. Do you agree with the accusations or do you think it makes no sense to answer absurd statements? I’m curious about the reason you wrote the article: on your own initiative, then you can just talk about liberoid confusion or work out a foreign grant, then this is a betrayal of the homeland?
          1. -1
            15 May 2015 17: 10
            And from whom are the charges? Doctors of historical sciences, famous for their work? Or from turners trying to judge bakers? My articles are published by such magazines as Voprosy istorii and other academic publications. Books - the publishing house Enlightenment, Polygon, Eksmo, Rosman, Osprey ... probably not in vain, the reader is now voting with a ruble. There are more positive reviews than negative ones. And I have to answer something to someone? Are you a Doctor of Historical Sciences and have 35 books published here and around the world? Even so, your opinion is against mine. I can listen, but I can send it to x ... Therefore, I am not going to answer various fools. And the RHNF gives me grants - you can look at the website. Only people with a trench creature can think of the above, and it is sad that they exist, albeit a little. And for the accusation of betraying the Motherland, you can answer in court, now it is easier than easy, and I work at the Faculty of Law.
  2. +3
    13 May 2015 07: 41
    Who cares- Reconstruction of the Battle of the Ice in 2015
    http://informpskov.ru/news/174505.html
    1. +3
      13 May 2015 07: 58
      Very good photos! And the reconstruction is good, people have tried! That's where to get illustrations in textbooks! And then there would be no "chained knights" in them. Thank you for finding such informative material!
      1. +2
        13 May 2015 08: 45
        Because it is a reconstruction, not a re-enactment. Here the scientific-historical approach. From full compliance with weapons, to tactics. What can I say, the strictest selection even for technology and materials for the manufacture of clothes for such events is only homespun and seams by hand. No fabric of modern machine weaving and machine lines when sewing.
        So yes, these are ready-made illustrations for textbooks and even for specialized universities.
        1. +3
          13 May 2015 09: 31
          Quote: abrakadabre
          Yes, these are ready-made illustrations for textbooks and even for specialized universities.

          For illustrations, perhaps, only photos of individual soldiers are suitable, and even then not all. Too thick for the fighters stomachs interfere with many. As for the reconstruction of the battle itself, this is hindered by an insignificant number of participants (especially horsemen). And imitation of even a simple hand-to-hand combat requires considerable artistry, very good training and knowledge of the basics of fencing with weapons of that time. Otherwise, the fight turns out to be fun, which is always clearly visible to the audience.
    2. +2
      13 May 2015 09: 24
      Quote: igordok
      Reconstruction of the Battle of the Ice at 2015 at http://informpskov.ru/news/174505.html

      Of course, this event does not attract the reconstruction of the Battle of the Ice itself, but the costumes and armament are indeed transferred quite reliably.
      1. +2
        13 May 2015 10: 22
        Concerning reconstruction costumes, there is also an inaccuracy that immediately catches the eye: an abundance of saturated bright blue colors.
        It is known that in the Middle Ages, good blue paint was very expensive and very wealthy people could afford to wear blue clothes (although blue was very popular in painting).
        True, there was also a relatively cheap dye obtained on the basis of a plant called "weida dyeing", but the blue color from this plant was unstable and rather dull shade (not at all the same as in the illustrations above).
        The widespread in the clothing of ordinary people, the saturated blue color was received only after the beginning of the industrial revolution and the development of the chemical industry.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  3. -1
    13 May 2015 08: 14
    All these digging in history, "they say it was not like that, but only I know how .." recently fed up, a bunch of historians in the old days came up with everything wrong, but Mr. Shpakovsky knows everything correctly. Not convincing!
    1. +2
      13 May 2015 08: 49
      All these digging in history, "they say it was not like that, but only I know how .." recently fed up, a bunch of historians in the old days came up with everything wrong, but Mr. Shpakovsky knows everything correctly. Not convincing!
      You just are not in the subject. Among the reenactors there are many scientific workers of historians.
      And it’s not a topic of how many mistakes cabinet scientists made even recently, when studying armor and weapons. Wagon and trolley.
    2. 0
      13 May 2015 12: 57
      A link in the text for what? Familiarize yourself with the sources and also know everything correctly, and based on your own conclusions and judgments, and this is worth a lot!
  4. 0
    13 May 2015 08: 20
    The author should have limited himself to criticism of history textbooks and give in the article an idea of ​​the Battle on the Ice and the weapons of the participants in the battle. In general, it seems to me that the author adheres to liberal-pro-Western beliefs, therefore he so often repeats the foreign name of the lake, examines in such detail, under the guise of striving for historical correspondence, inaccuracies in a feature film, which for many is a cult film that forms a national-spiritual matrix, therefore, it is something sacred that it is blasphemous to disassemble and dissect. But the author apparently does not feel all this. With all this, the film contains fragments about which, by the way, you can say, but they lie in a slightly different plane. Remember the fragment as from the ground, from the dugouts, ordinary Russian people climb out trying to take part in the battle. Well, a Jew could not denigrate the Russians, at least somewhere in one place, at least in one fragment, but to play a dirty trick. Similarly, the Jewess in the film "Seventeen Moments of Spring" screwed and a fragment where Stirlitz with a dirty face eats baked potatoes.
  5. +3
    13 May 2015 08: 37
    As for the famous “Lithuanian paveza” - that is, a shield with a hand gutter protruding in the middle, then the Lithuanians did not have it yet.
    Hear it for the first time. Before that I just met paveses. "Rostovs", behind which crossbowmen were hiding in the field and during sieges, sticks into the ground and props up with a stake-stand included in the kit. Infantry - in appearance, size and use are roughly correctly depicted in the film, with the knights setting up a wall of shields and spears. Unless they were distributed a little later. So for 80-150 years. Fencing - a small version of the arm with an elbow grip, allows you to actively fence. Also, they were widespread! later.
    Traitor Told it is unclear why he was dressed in a cuirass, and at that time they were not yet worn.
    Moreover, the cuirass is not solid, but riveted in the manner of grained armor of the 16-17th centuries. There is a helmet of a misyurka.
    Typical helmets are sallet or salad, but, alas, not from that era.
    Moreover, the shape of the helmet and landing on the head is only a remotely infantry salad. Well, not only not by era, but also by value. The same discrepancy in epoch is the total armament of bollards with all-metal and, moreover, whole-drawn shields (15-16 centuries). Similar shields, rondashi - this is the time of developed pikiner phalanges, for example, Spanish thirds. But there is an elbow grip there. Developed Umbon - fist grip. That is, this fencing buckler is a completely impractical thing in a mass battle. You can fight with a buckler either in an individual duel in peacetime, or in the presence of full plate armor. But in no case in a dense infantry formation.
    Knightly "buckets" - the author correctly said, the shape is wrong. But about the fake horns on a knight-monk and a Christian - easily. As it is, first of all, knights, with all the attributes (albeit regulated by the charter of the order), and only secondarily monks. The "horned" knight is of high birth and holds a high position in the order. Therefore, he can very freely interpret the charter of the order in terms of decorating weapons. All such horn-hooves-hand and other swans with locks and feathers were fake pads on helmets. At the first blow, it fell apart. And it had to fall apart. Otherwise, instead of sliding off the helmet, a powerful blow from above would go into the cervical vertebrae.

    You can still lay out a lot of historical inconsistencies, but this is superfluous. This does not affect the artistic power of the film. I am pleased to review it over and over again.
  6. 0
    13 May 2015 09: 00
    Lies have always been present in books - and even more so in school ones - under the USSR too!
    How many for example, the history of the peoples of Russia has been rewritten, blackening some, and whitewashing others, raising, lowering ..!
    And what the author says is the least evil (lie)! laughing
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. +2
    13 May 2015 09: 26
    The author mentions in the article only the "bucket" helmets of the knights of that period. But the old illustrations may be different. For example, these are the German knights, obviously not buckets, but not pointed either (artist Heinrich von Veldeke, first half of the XNUMXth century):
    1. +2
      13 May 2015 09: 43
      Quote: el compasso
      The author mentions in the article only the "bucket" helmets of the knights of that period. But the old illustrations may be different. For example, these are the German knights, obviously not buckets, but not pointed either (artist Heinrich von Veldeke, first half of the XNUMXth century):



      Strictly speaking, it is generally not clear what is meant by the term helmet-bucket.
      The film shows helmets similar to GreatHelms, the typical tophelms in the illustration you give. The difference between them is significant, but in appearance they are similar.

      Here is TopHelm, similar to those in your picture.
      1. 0
        14 May 2015 10: 22
        Here is TopHelm, similar to those in your picture.
        This is an early and rather short-lived version of Pothhelm tophelm. At the time of the battle, they were gradually getting out of use. But this is rather not a matter of fashion, but of affluence and proximity-remoteness to the main centers for the production of armor and theaters of war, where masses of spears were used.
        Since the Baltic states, at that time, the European political and industrial periphery and the main adversary were the tribal squads of the Baltic peoples, such a helmet could be used for a long time in the ranks of knights. In the battle in question, it was most likely very common among knights. And even its older version - without a back neck plate and a shortened front.

        The standard inaccuracy of making POThelm replicas (as well as "buckets") is the developed breathing perforation on the left half of the face mask. But this is only because modern reenactors are fighting on foot. Only a few can afford to maintain and train a horse for josting.
  9. +4
    13 May 2015 09: 35
    I read the article with interest, Thank you.

    A small note.

    "The Philistines take off their armor from Saul." Since the miniatures for this manuscript date back to the same time as the Battle of the Ice, it is difficult to say that the knights were “clad in heavy armor”

    Those miniature armor was just very heavy. Chain mail with a hood and long sleeves, chain mail stockings, a helmet, a plate-like carapace was often under the cloak ... all this weighs a lot. On the other hand, the equipment of the Russian warrior was also never easy, the opponents of each other were worth it.
    1. 0
      13 May 2015 18: 13
      Our famous historian Gorelik believed that it was no easier than the Germans, if not harder! Especially the plate armor!
      1. +1
        14 May 2015 10: 26
        Our famous historian Gorelik believed that it was no easier than the Germans, if not harder! Especially the plate armor!
        Exactly. The armament complex of heavy cavalrymen of equal status to knights, ours was heavier and had a higher degree of protection.
        The power of the knights of the order was in discipline and a more harmonious, fulfilled group interaction. This is not to take away from them.
  10. +1
    13 May 2015 10: 00
    The bishops of the Order and the knights from Riga, Viljandi and St. George arrived in Novgorod, asked for peace and promised that they would not help the Rakorites, but the oath (even on the cross), but this oath was not considered an oath by heretics, knights.
    Everyone is surprised and indignant at the policy of double standards in the "West", here is another confirmation that they always had it in relation to us, yes, and they still consider us heretics (pagans). hi
  11. explorer
    +1
    13 May 2015 10: 44
    The author of the article pursues a provocative goal - to sow doubt and does it gracefully:
    And he will definitely insert the main idea at the end: like this one:
    http://profilib.com/chtenie/54141/vyacheslav-shpakovskiy-umrem-zhe-pod-moskvoy-
    svastika-nad-kremlem-102.php

    Afterword:
    ...
    As a result, I would like to cite an excerpt from an article by my fellow countryman, Penza historian Viktor Nikolaev, who, at the end of his article "Against Everything", published in a local newspaper and dedicated to the 354th Rifle Division, which, being formed on Penza land, became Kalinkovicheskaya, Order of Lenin, Order of Suvorov, Red Banner and which passed from Moscow to the Baltic coast of Germany, wrote the following: "The truth about the Great Patriotic War does not belittle the feat of the Soviet people, but it does not allow the ruling elite to continue to lie to people and hide the facts, as it was all 70 years of Soviet power. What did people know about the war with Finland? About the war in North Korea and Vietnam? About the hostilities in Afghanistan? The 1st Chechen War was no exception. Studying archival documents, you involuntarily come to the conclusion that the Great Patriotic War in many respects won by the Soviet people not thanks to the leading role of the party and government, but in spite of it.There are so many blunders, shortcomings, as well as deliberate actions in the form of mass repressions were in those years that you just wonder - how people survived? If we recall the centuries-old history of Russia, then the leaders did not always turn out to be at their best during the invasion of the aggressors, and nevertheless, the people eventually won. For in difficult times, ordinary people took the fate of the Motherland into their own hands and saved it themselves. "
    With my book, I fully subscribe to this proposition, because if someone alone said something well, then why rewrite it in your own words?

    Vyacheslav Shpakovsky - "Let's Die Near Moscow!" Swastika over the Kremlin
    1. 0
      13 May 2015 12: 51
      And where is the provocation? And did not Stalin make a toast to the Russian people and their patience at a reception in the Kremlin on the occasion of the Victory? Than you did not please this passage specifically?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. explorer
        +3
        13 May 2015 14: 05
        Quote: kalibr
        And where is the provocation? And did not Stalin make a toast to the Russian people and their patience at a reception in the Kremlin on the occasion of the Victory? Than you did not please this passage specifically?


        Here it is:
        Quote: kalibr
        that the Great Patriotic War was largely won by the Soviet people not because of the leading role of the party and government, but contrary to it

        - because starting from this, they usually go on smoothly to the criminal regime of the tyrant Stalin,
        и more...
        who fought with the same tyrant Hitler,
        and further give rise to calls for a review of the results of the Great Patriotic War.
        1. +1
          13 May 2015 15: 49
          And where is "next" in the book?
      3. +1
        13 May 2015 14: 40
        Quote: kalibr
        And where is the provocation? And did not Stalin make a toast to the Russian people and their patience at a reception in the Kremlin on the occasion of the Victory? Than you did not please this passage specifically?

        I, too, am not left with a sort of shabby feeling from reading the two above-mentioned articles. What Stalin said really concerned the entire Russian people. And ordinary, and generals, and party workers of the highest level without separation. That is the strength. And the fact that there were traitors, they were present at all times, starting with the arrival of Rurik. By the way, as a historian, one cannot fail to understand the role of the individual in any event. People are all different, so God created them, and the strong ones always lead the weaker ones. The wise make decisions that are simply unavailable to others. But they are all one people. And only a single people can survive, and not separately: power in itself, lack of power in itself. That is why our ancestors had princes to quickly gather the people in a fist and the people only welcomed such power. After all, the Novgorodians came to Belaya Rus to Yaroslav Vsevolodovich to ask precisely Prince Alexander (and not his brother Andrei), when the trouble came. I do not think that they liked him with liberal speeches and the ability to fill in jokes. They understood that a very tough hand was needed in order to eradicate internal democratic seditiousness and make it clear to external enemies who was the boss in Novgorod and Pskov lands.
        1. +2
          13 May 2015 15: 57
          Here you poison about "Kramola" ..... "Novgorod Republic" is a LIGHT in our history, in my opinion, actually .... read the Pskov Chronicle, about the guardsmen, then listen to the Noneshny head of the Ministry of Culture Medinsky on the topic " Mwan the Terrible BEST ... during his time 300 people were killed ".... There they frolic so much that Novgorod, since then, has died out and turned into a remote place ... Is this a genocide of the people? Or is it "for the good of the state"? For the good of the state genocide? Everything is debatable ...
          1. +1
            13 May 2015 16: 54
            Quote: valerysvy
            Here you poison about "Kramola" ..... "Novgorod Republic" is a LIGHT in our history, in my opinion, actually .... read the Pskov Chronicle, about the guardsmen, then listen to the Noneshny head of the Ministry of Culture Medinsky on the topic " Mwan the Terrible BEST ... during his time 300 people were killed ".... There they frolic so much that Novgorod, since then, has died out and turned into a remote place ... Is this a genocide of the people? Or is it "for the good of the state"? For the good of the state genocide? Everything is debatable ...

            Duc, I read the annals and draw conclusions. After all, the analogy with our time is obvious. There was sedition (liberals came to power) in Niegrad and immediately the Germans sat on their necks, imposed a tribute. Prince Alexander came, outweighed the seditious (liberals), put things in order, and put in the Lyuli to the Germans. The Germans came running to ask for peace. Doesn’t resemble anything?
            1. -1
              13 May 2015 19: 10
              Quote: Bully
              Prince Alexander came, outweighed the seditious (liberals), put things in order, and put in the Lyuli to the Germans. The Germans came running to ask for peace. Doesn’t resemble anything?

              Dear .... with your "syllable" you Even, God forgive me, you don't pull on moron ....
              1. 0
                13 May 2015 19: 52
                I wonder if the respected spirit would have been enough for me to say this in person?
                1. -2
                  13 May 2015 23: 12
                  Hear, Dear ... I’m telling you as you like - learn to express YOUR thoughts in Russian ... and if THIS is your Bullshit, then write that it’s exclusively yours ....
                  Go to Bull Street, by the way, there are Concrete pillars for you Enough Dear ...
                  1. 0
                    14 May 2015 09: 30
                    Relax, dear, drink vodka. Kashchenko’s patients do not interest me.
          2. +1
            13 May 2015 18: 08
            Quote: valerysvy
            They frolic so much that Novgorod,

            Yes, you can’t frolic. As now in Ukraine. You must immediately pan to the feet, Vladislav to the kingdom. And they must silently leave the historical arena, not spoil the Western civilizers the pleasure of introducing the power of the American people into idiotic philanthropy. The corpses will begin to count - well, our most brutal leaders do not reach their most humane. By the size of civilized loyal subjects.
            1. -3
              13 May 2015 19: 14
              Quote: 97110
              Well, our most atrocious leaders do not reach their most humane. By the size of civilized loyal subjects.

              I repeat - judging by the "patriotic" type of "syllable", the moronization of Russia was successful ... In the USSR, there were, to put it mildly, not smart, 3 orders of magnitude fewer ... THIS is a story and you are delirious based on your dreams ... Is there a source of something? So lay out - at least the chronicle rewritten HUNDRED TIMES SINCE ... it says not what is in the history books, but what you are talking about is the natural Delirium of the Mad ...
              This is a story, not a patriotic libel, and no need to invent it ...
    2. +1
      13 May 2015 18: 19
      By the way, Rene Descartes once said: Kogito is ergo sum, tanito is ergo sum - I think I exist, I doubt I exist. And people who are in no doubt appear to me scary people.
  12. +2
    13 May 2015 12: 57
    A country with an unpredictable history? History is continuously erased. Either priests, then Germans. I read Karamzin, Klyuchevsky, Lomonosov, Kostomarov, Soloviev. I came to the conclusion that history is how beneficial it is for me to understand it. There is still the logic of things. If Russia was strengthened, even if not thanks to, and contrary to, these are our glorious ancestors. And such nits as Radzinsky, Mlechin and laziness to list all, it is necessary ... well, in short, the Belomorkanal should be deepened and expanded. Summary-Comrade Stalin was right.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. +1
    13 May 2015 14: 23
    The famous painting by the artist Alexander Pavlovich Bubnov "Morning on the Kulikovo field" A magnificent canvas on which the image of the conquering people was created, the interpretation of the Kulikovo battle as a popular victory in the struggle for national independence. I want to offer a link to a number of paintings on this topic, the episode of Chelubey's duel with Peresvet was depicted other artists ... And then the author's questions to Sergei Mikhailovich Eisenstein will disappear by themselves at the same time and the author's question is which of the paintings presented is the most historically correct (The work of O. Kiprensky is very interesting, for which he was awarded the Great Gold Medal): https: // yandex.ru/images/search?img_url=http%3A%2F%2Fb.bort.foto-tula.ru%2Ffile

    s%2Fp0017564.jpg&uinfo=sw-1440-sh-900-ww-1423-wh-740-pd-1-wp-16x10_1440x900&_=14

    31514484276&p=2&text=%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D

    0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BA%20%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5%

    D1%82%D0%B0%20%D1%81%20%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%BC%20%D0%BD

    %D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BC%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D

    0%BB%D0%B5&redircnt=1431514505.1&noreask=1&pos=72&rpt=simage&lr=20677
    and the last one, don’t shoot Ezenshtein, he plays as best he can .. I feel that the inaccuracies in the film are somehow least of all worried .. the film does not suffer from these inaccuracies, it wins ..
    1. 0
      13 May 2015 15: 56
      Of course, the artist has the right to see in his own way, although within certain limits. Watch our film "Armored Train". There, too, "I see it" - but this is completely different, isn't it? Eisenstein puts up with these inaccuracies. Just like in the film "The Three Musketeers" directed by Borderi, you put up with the cardinal's guards in black. And there are many "musketeers" where they are in red, but ... alas! Not that! You just need to know this, and this knowledge of the attitude towards the film does not change. Still, it's better not to learn history from films, although the film "Kaloyan" turned out to be very colorful and patriotic.
    2. -1
      13 May 2015 16: 01
      You just have to write everywhere "Fiction of the Author" .... wink
      According to the modern day about the Second World War, you just need to write "Delirium of the Author" .... because they make up such a thing that it's time to lay them down ...
  16. 0
    13 May 2015 14: 24
    Quote: Bully
    I am embarrassed to ask: and which of the historians is authority for you? The answer, I hope, will be indicative.

    The historian is a storyteller, a myth-maker. Any historian operates with human emotions as immutable facts, without confirmation of the truth. After all, no one will object that history is written by winners, that is, people, and people would not be so if they were devoid of emotions. And the facts of falsification of historical events are more than enough. A more correct attitude to the past, I consider common sense and gene memory. After all, speaking beautifully and reasonably does not mean telling the truth. The seemingly immutable ideas of the past are constantly breaking down yesterday. So your question about "authorities" among historians is very complicated and it is better, in my opinion, not to have "authorities" among them, but to listen to them very carefully, using common sense, if there is one of course.)
    1. -1
      13 May 2015 23: 14
      Quote: ava09
      Any historian operates on human emotions as immutable facts, without any evidence of truth.

      In This, Dear, there is Your GENIUS ... You do not confuse Historians with yourself ...
  17. -1
    13 May 2015 15: 24
    Continuation of Funny Showdowns wink In the History Textbook about THIS it is clear "TALE" is written .... Fiction .... Films in general RADIANT .... It's a shame that% so 90 THIS is exactly how they perceive it .... There were no Bucket Helmets .... chain mail of armor, nothing more ... In general, the "knightly equipment" practically did not differ from the "vestments" of the Novgorod Druzhinniki ...
    To be honest, I don’t understand at all where the attention to the "Battle of the Neva" and "The Battle of the Ice" comes from .... How A. Nevsky got into our book "One Hundred Great Generals" is not clear at all ... Events of the local scale are nothing more. ..In the First, the loss of the Swedes, according to various estimates, from two or three dozen, to two or three hundred ... Let's take the average - 150 people loss of the Enemy ... IS THIS "Great Battle"? With the Battle of Lake Peipsi, a similar situation ...
    They also robbed and attacked both those and those ... Well, that happened "local disassembly" ...
    The figure of "Nevsky" in the imagination of Peter the Great surfaced when he was inflamed by writing the history of the Empire ... And the figure is not at all unambiguous ... "Defender of the Russian land", and where else did he participate or was he ready to give everything for the grand prince's table? Nevruyevskaya Rat - all "Rus" rebelled, the Horde people burned everything, killed the darkness of the people ... Where was the "Defender"? The answer is simply amazing, in the Horde wagon train! I watched the Horde lead the Russians to submission ...
    Everything is covered with Darkness ... regarding history .... everything is "written with white thread" under Peter the Great ....
    One can only argue about the weapons and equipment of those times, but in the history textbook of the history of the bullshit for children it was written about this .... There was no "heavy armor" .... It appeared much later .....
  18. +1
    13 May 2015 17: 01
    Yeah...

    TS, with a tenacity worthy of a better application, continues to "open our eyes" to our own history.

    Say, and - your pipe was lower, and the smoke - thinner ...

    And it was in deeds and not a battle, but the clash ... a skirmish is shallow. After almost eight centuries, this TS clearly sees with its burning gaze: the smallest clash.

    The next step seems to be: just a collision. No fight. So ... They exchanged obscene words, each in his own language and ... parted.

    Then, it turns out that there was actually a clash, but at the same time they "piled on" ... Russians!

    Well, and then, some thread of the next "Leviathan Zvyagintsev" will shoot a "brilliant film" in which the "lights of Western civilization" utterly defeated the "wild Mongol-Russian hordes".

    At the same time, the armor of the Western "messengers of light" will be "strictly authentic", as a result of which an absolutely firm conclusion will be made that "the film was shot based on real events."

    Meet Citizens, Overton Windows in Action!

    No, this TS is just touching me! Especially his phrases, such as: “Obviously, when preparing for the filming of the film, S. Eisenstein read all Russian annals of this period ... "©

    Yes, yes ... all-all chronicles ... "of this period" ...

    I have already said that the image of Prince Alexander Nevsky is our Shrine. And WHAT and HOW actually happened there - it is no longer so important, after a lapse of nearly eight hundred years. But no! Someone really wants to stretch out their dirty and sticky hands "for objective research."

    With the same success, one can "investigate" the manifestation of "topographic cretinism" among the ancient Jews, who for 40 (!) Years "roamed" through the desert, the dimensions of which do not exceed ... 300 km in diameter!

    Yes, the Tver merchant Afanasy Nikitin ("Voyage across the Three Seas") managed to "walk" in six (!) Years to India and back.

    Even if you plod along with the most lethargic relaxed gait at 3 km / h, 6 hours a day, with breaks, it will take: 300: (3 * 6) = 17 days! Not weeks, not months, not years, damn it - DAYS!
    Apparently - the whole point is that God gave the Jews food. Namely - granted, i.e. there was no need to strain and work hard. So the Jews pulled a freebie as best they could for 40 years, until God had run out of patience ...

    There can be many options for such "research". And that a thousand (800) years, that several thousand years - does not matter, for us - these are time intervals of the same order.
    1. -3
      13 May 2015 17: 58
      Sorry ... and you are guided by Dreams in your vision of these events? So tell your dreams wink Something else? THAN?
      Discover YOUR sources of history! We will be glad wink
      Do you have them? Only dreams? then what have you written so much about?
      Do you think that the Jews are to blame for everything? So this would be limited, but so much "brain" was spent on writing tongue
      1. +1
        13 May 2015 19: 44
        Quote: valerysvy
        ... In your opinion, "the Jews are to blame for everything"? ...


        - Here you are - they said ...
        - I SAID???
        “No, but ... thought?”

        I am afraid that I will not be able to give you such joy and allow you to huddle in yet another reflex hysteria about "another case of anti-Semitism": I did not accuse the Jews of anything here.

        I "only" demonstrated, excuse me - by your example, how cautiously it is necessary to treat Shrines, including strangers.

        A blatant disagreement with the common sense of the "adventures" of Moses leaves a rich scope for "research in search of objective truth."

        I had no doubt that some regular exalted Jew would hasten to respond to my demonstrative doubts about the reality of the events of the Exodus. With a "saber bald", ess-but. And you really did not keep yourself waiting. Thanks.

        Anticipating this, I deliberately quoted all the "slippery spots" (see "You can just as well" investigate "the manifestation of" topographic cretinism "among the ancient Jews ..." ©).

        Let us, you will not "investigate" our Shrines (in Israel, by the way, the "tomb of Jesus" is found with amazing regularity) and then, and yours will be treated accordingly.
        Vous m'comprenez?
        1. +1
          14 May 2015 04: 16
          Quote: VSkilled
          Let us, you will not "investigate" our Shrines (in Israel, by the way, the "tomb of Jesus" is found with amazing regularity) and then, and yours will be treated accordingly.
          Well done, so them ... goodAn information war is being waged against the Russians and this article is part of a Russophobic attack. Many Russophobic feature films are being shot now, cult films are often re-shot with Western money and with Western actors in the lead roles (quiet don, for example), I won’t be surprised if they re-shoot soon (I agree with VSkilled) and the Battle of the Ice.
          1. -2
            14 May 2015 22: 01
            Well, I don’t even know what YOU personally call wink You won’t express yourself here winked Is the article waging an information war against the Russians? You are sick on your head, you can't think or think, that's the whole story ... Give me a description of the "Battle of the Neva" of the times when it happened .... Give me a description of what the Grand Duke Alexander light Yaroslavich Nevsky did when on Rust Nevryuevskaya Rat Pearl ... in our chronicles THIS is ...
  19. -1
    13 May 2015 20: 21
    The article is about nothing! About ice - nothing new !! Why are Litvinas or zhmud braided. The author is undecided !! Kicked a great movie !! Bucket helmets were from 12-13 centuries. At least Osprey's editions looked !! If he so loves bows to the West! The knight's armor consisted of a hauberk, chain mail pants, a hood. Bottom stitching. Plus knee pads, iron shoes, gloves, helmet !! And the decorations on them, especially at tournaments, what was not there! Plus a heavy horse, often with a chain mail blanket. The weight of the knight's "clothes", excluding weapons, is 30-35 kg. Try to swim !! I subscribe to the remark of the respected VSkilled about overtone windows !! The author, the Cossack is sent!
    1. +2
      14 May 2015 07: 38
      Where did you get about kolzhnaya blankets in 1242? In which of the Osprey editions, I know them all, I print there myself. Tophelm was, but not the same as in the film. Would you even have a helmet from Kaloyan recorded in a reliable sample!
      1. -1
        14 May 2015 22: 05
        They UNKNOWN ANYTHING having seen enough of feature films and books on them represent history .. This is Tin and Patriotism, probably, with the Face of an Idiot ...
    2. +1
      14 May 2015 11: 00
      Try to swim !!
      Like two fingers on the asphalt:
      The knight's armor consisted of a hauber, chain mail pants, and a hood.
      In the 12-13th century, in Europe, for the most part, we simply did not wear pants in our understanding. And even more so chain mail. This part of the toilet is called hossa - SEPARATE leg-stockings. The cut of modern trousers was also known - that is how BDT were sewn - short trousers used as underwear. Just wide underpants, an average length to the knees.
      Chain highways were also made at the same time as covering the feet. Only the sole was not chain mail, but leather. The poorer knights wore not whole-braided chain-necked highways, but covering their leg (and foot) only in front and partially from the sides. There was lacing in the back. Chain bosses usually covered their legs to the middle of the thigh or slightly higher. Because the hips were still covered with long hauberk floors.
      Plus knee pads, iron shoes, gloves, helmet !!
      Knee pads - this is 100 years later. At this time, even tucked knee-high discs are not yet in trend. Sabatons (iron shoes) appeared even later on the knee pads - towards the middle-end of the centenary war.
      Plus a horse, heavy, often with chain mail.
      Rarely. Rarely. Due to the extreme cost of chain mail at that time. Certainly not for ordinary knights. The maximum is quilted, but most likely just woven. That is, if at all.
      But all kinds of ideas on the helmet - everywhere at that time.
      The weight of the knight's "clothes", excluding weapons, is 30-35 kg.

      Standard Knight Armor:
      - Hauberk - 12 kg (with coif)
      - Highways - approximately 4-6 kg per pair
      - Helmet - 3-5 kg.
      - a possible additional cervical dog on a koif - about 1 kg.
      TOTAL - about 20-24 kg.

      For a more noble and wealthy knight - the leadership of the order, castellans, etc. add:
      - bibs (under / over the hauberk) or the most primitive forms of brigant - 4-6 kg.
      But here we go to 30 kg.
      1. 0
        14 May 2015 22: 12
        Do you explain this to anyone? Why Patriotic Oranje with fantastic statements has become the norm ... and you won’t prove anything to them .... Having no sources, at best, and at worst claiming that the source is a film or an art book, they will spoil it for you! I tried to explain that in those days horses didn’t have any protection at all - it appeared a hundred years later, at best, ... But they don’t understand this ... So don’t worry ... Fools are now Prudy Prudy ... . most remarkable - there weren’t so many of them in the USSR ..
        1. 0
          18 May 2015 13: 47
          I tried to explain that in those days horses didn’t have any protection at all - a hundred years later, at best, it appeared ...
          A controversial issue in the "appeared" part. It was already. It was even earlier. But to what extent it was accessible to knights who do not have their own profitable fief - that's where the whole subtlety lies.
          The same Richard the Lionheart, 60 years earlier, at the Battle of Arsuf, already wore a bib under chain mail and very possibly rode a horse with chain mail protection. But it was very expensive. Which is permissible for the king, the ordinary knights of the order cannot afford. Despite the centralized supply of weapons and ammunition.
      2. +1
        15 May 2015 17: 32
        The funny thing is that you know this, but you do not make references to sources, and this is not required. Because you know everything correctly! But from where? Not from the holy spirit? It means that you read something, analyzed something, used some kind of source base. Who interfered, did not give, forbade, others to take advantage of this? It is clear that not everyone is interested in this. But since you are not interested and you have not read anything, you do not know anything, then why are you bothering with your opinion? It's not like having two fingers on the asphalt - head on the corner of the wall and still can't get through to anything! "Clad in armor" - and that's it!
    3. 0
      14 May 2015 22: 03
      What tournaments? A horse with a chain blanket? Have you accidentally mixed up centuries about blankets? TEACH THE HISTORY OF WEAPONS before delirium fences ....
      1. 0
        18 May 2015 13: 47
        Tournaments at that time have already appeared.
  20. Simon
    +1
    13 May 2015 22: 24
    To be honest, history seekers usually grow up in a technical environment. Literally every day I have to deal with Fomenko fans, and their common misfortune is that they see something interesting where it does not exist and try to put new meaning into old phrases.

    and they chased the running enemy seven miles (seven everywhere, isn't that so, is it amazing ?!)

    Seven versts is an abstract value, as well as for distant lands. The meaning is simple - they pursued very far or as much as they could. An example of our proverbs and sayings - a mad dog of 7 versts is not a hook and go for 7 versts of jelly slurp.

    The slots on the helmets of the “knight dogs” that had the shape of a cross did not really occur. The slit of the T-shape on the knight's helmets was, but in the shape of a cross - a clear author's fiction

    To compare the film with the realities of that time is silly it needs to be applied to the time when it was shot. This is the year 1938. Nobody had any illusions about Nazi Germany, because there was a war going on in Spain, where the Germans fought on the same side as the Comintern.

    The battle scene from the Kholkhem hand-drawn Bible. Around 1326 - 1327
    It shows the warriors with baklerah shields, the same as in the film "Alexander Nevsky", but the difference in time is almost 80 years.

    Not indicative of anything. First, there are always the canons of the genre. Secondly, how much does the "Rage" movie, which has set the teeth on edge, have much in common with the realities of the American World War II, or take at least "Company 9" filmed about 30 years after the war in Afghanistan. Is everything reflected there correctly?

    By the way, it is hardly worth attributing to Alexander Nevsky the phrase about the death of enemies of the Russian land from the sword.

    It is not necessary to exaggerate or downplay the events, the fact remains, and you won’t be able to find out who stood where and with what style. This is the heroic page of our story, and Eisenstein made such a movie for which we are not ashamed to this day.
    1. +1
      14 May 2015 07: 44
      Not ashamed! But ashamed to learn the history of the movie!
      1. Simon
        0
        14 May 2015 18: 24
        Nobody teaches her about feature films, for this there are higher educational institutions and archives. If you need to get information, then at the very minimum you can master documentaries.
        And yes, I am not ashamed of anyone. I do not want to offend anyone with this, but there is something there - your material turned out to be not analytics and a selection of facts, but a set of conjectures. Since you posted it, I have the right to say it, the more I read it. You will find something new, I will read it with pleasure, and if there is a desire, I will leave a comment.
        1. +1
          14 May 2015 22: 16
          I do not agree ..... The author is just right according to the sources .... And what "documentaries" do you know for that period? And the sources? In our annals, written-rewritten, "3 words" about It ... Maybe you discovered something new? Share wink
        2. +1
          15 May 2015 17: 25
          The article named speculation is not mine! And you see how hard it is to part with them? And for this they are called for people to part with them forever. Lenin also wrote that the masses are strong in their consciousness. When they all know and can judge everything on their own. So let them know and judge! The text contains references to sources, texts of chronicles, expressed the concept of which again said - DUSMS. Is it not analytics? Would you be satisfied with the repetition of the legend about the knights chained in heavy armor?
          1. Simon
            0
            15 May 2015 20: 39
            Sorry, if I somehow put it that way, I didn’t want to offend anything. I have nothing against you and do not question your knowledge. But someone liked the material, but someone, like me, didn’t. For example, I liked your post about Japanese weapons very much, there is quite succinct and there are no questions, but here I’m sorry, but I will remain with my opinion.
            1. 0
              16 May 2015 22: 22
              This is because very few people understand there. That's all for, so as not to say stupidity inadvertently. And here everyone thinks that they understand everything! Don't you know how they say about history: "Well, you can't read it, can you? It's not mathematics for you!" And this is science and, like any science, they study it ... for years!
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  21. -1
    13 May 2015 22: 39
    I applaud the author! Esenstein sucks! wink
    One question - who called the battle "The Battle of the Ice"? I don't know, enlighten.
    Aside, leave the theme of grass and reeds wink
    PS Scary, but you participated in the compilation of historical textbooks?
    PSI Like a historian. Why did the infantry change from raspberry to red?
    PSII. Today is the 13th. Do you believe in signs?
    PSIII. I'm angry today. Please forgive and answer the questions.
    1. 0
      14 May 2015 07: 43
      Are you asking me? If yes, then I did not write history books (textbooks), but I have a lot of monographs and textbooks on history, including the Enlightenment publishing house. I don't know about the foxes. I do not believe in omens. Where did the name come from?
  22. 0
    13 May 2015 22: 42
    The author writes as if he was there, and all the sources are reliable, and he knows the time of writing the annals up to 8 years, and yet this is not so. So historians themselves have not gone far from the scriptwriters, but come on, because of the insignificant details, the foam from the mouth goes
    1. 0
      13 May 2015 23: 16
      The historian can only operate with documents .... Documents, US does not have those times ... there is written-rewritten .... only this and real sources are referenced by the Author ...
  23. +1
    14 May 2015 15: 46
    maybe in old films in the scenery there are even big inaccuracies, but the essence ... but patriotism remained for life. and the new "stalingrad" and "sevastopol" are even disgusting to watch, not just remembering. Bondarchuk at least took his father's surname would be a pseudonym.
  24. 0
    30 November 2018 15: 15
    The founder of communist teaching used the noun “monk” with respect to these knights, which they were, but in German it turned out to be consonant with the word “dog”!
    In German, a monk is mönch and a dog is hund. Rather, "Hundsgugel (German hundsgugel - a dog's hood) is a kind of bascinet-type helmet with a cone-shaped visor strongly extended forward."
  25. 0
    17 December 2018 17: 12
    Traitor Told it is unclear why he was dressed in a cuirass, and at that time they were not yet worn.

    Vyacheslav Olegovich, judging by the photo, this is not a cuirass, but a typical "mirror" (about the XNUMXth century). But at the same Eisenstein, Ivan the Terrible near Kazan is dressed in ordinary chain mail, a shishak of the XNUMXth century - and in his hand is a classic almond-shaped shield of the same XNUMXth century laughing
    due to the incorrect translation of the works of Karl Marx into Russian. The founder of communist teaching used the noun “monk” with respect to these knights, which they were, but in German it turned out to be consonant with the word “dog”!

    I read the version not just about the wrong translation, but about the wrong translation low-quality underground copy - instead of Rittersbund (knightly union) it turned out to be Rittershund ("knightly dog"), and in the supra-cerebral p-p-revolutionary translation - "dog-knight"

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"