Building a new aircraft carrier for the Russian Navy: disputes and discussions in the press

195
Possible construction of an aircraft carrier or aircraft carriers for the naval fleet Russia is one of the main topics discussed over the past few years. From time to time, various news and messages on this subject, which become a new occasion for discussion. In addition, several years ago, Russian experts first presented the possible appearance of a future aircraft carrier. The Ministry of Defense does not yet have clear plans for the construction of such ships, which, however, does not prevent disputes. In recent days, active discussions of this problem began in the domestic media.



The “controversy” of recent days began with an article published by Expert Online. The article “The Winged Dream of Sailors” by Alexey Khazbiev, published by 13 April, gave some facts about a possible program of building an aircraft carrier and the current state of affairs in this area. In addition, the publication of the first published one remarkable news.

A. Khazbiev began his publication by reporting that the Krylov State Research Center, the leading organization of Russian shipbuilding, received an export-design passport for a project of a promising aircraft carrier with a displacement of about 100 thousand tons. Thanks to this event, scientists and engineers can demonstrate their new development at international exhibitions of weapons and equipment for the naval forces. Accordingly, foreign countries that have a desire to strengthen their naval forces with new aircraft carriers will be able to obtain the necessary information about the Russian project.

Further in the article “The Winged Dream of Seafarers,” some already known facts about the development of promising projects are mentioned. So, the existence of a new development of the Krylov State Research Center became known only a few weeks ago. Then the deputy general director of this organization, Valery Polyakov, reported on the creation of a conceptual model of a promising ship, which combines the latest scientific and technical ideas and requests from the military, but is not yet a full-fledged project. This conceptual model is the basis for all further work and determines the appearance of both the aircraft carrier itself and its individual systems.

Also, "Expert Online" cites the words of the head of the author's group of the Center, Valentin Belonenko, revealing some features of the model. In its current form, the proposal implies the construction of a ship capable of carrying about a hundred aircraft of various classes and types. The air group will have to include a deck modification of the T-50 fighter, Ka-32 helicopters, long-range radar vision aircraft, etc. In addition, a special form of the ship’s hull has been developed, which reduces water resistance by almost 20%. Due to a number of know-how, it is alleged that a promising aircraft carrier will be able to provide work aviation even in a storm.

The new aircraft carrier will be equipped not only with a springboard, but also with starter catapults. Such equipment will make it possible to include DRLO aircraft with the required characteristics in the ship group. The author of the publication believes that the old domestic ships that did not have catapults could not “independently carry out large-scale offensive operations”, and their role was to repel threats.

A. Khazbiev suggests that building a new aircraft carrier could cost 10-12 billion US dollars and will continue for at least 10 years. Such estimates are made on the basis of information on the construction of a new aircraft carrier USS Gerard R. Ford (CVN-78) for the US Navy. However, it is noted that such figures refer only to the lead ship. Serial aircraft carriers will cost 10-15% less. However, in this case, the question arises orders for serial ships.

The article “Winged Dream of Sailors” recalls that the actual program for the development of military shipbuilding, calculated up to 2050, provides for the development and construction of a new aircraft carrier. Nevertheless, such projects are related to the late periods of the program. Yet we can not exclude the possibility that plans for the construction of an aircraft carrier will be revised. For example, not so long ago, the deputy commander-in-chief of the Navy for armaments, Viktor Bursuk, noted that the first aircraft carrier of the new type would appear no earlier than 2030 of the year. A similar project is already planned, it will be created in due time.

The article of the Expert Online publication ends with an important reminder. The fact is that the Krylov State Research Center actually conducted only research work on promising topics. However, in the next stages of the project, it will be necessary to solve a lot of design problems and form a full-fledged look of the ship. In order for the new ship to be able to fully carry out the tasks assigned to it, the next stages of the project will have to carry out work in various directions, from hydrodynamics to weapon systems.

15 April edition of the "Free Press" published an article by Sergei Ischenko "Russia will overrun by the future aircraft carrier", which, with certain reservations, can be considered a response to "Winged dream of sailors." The author of the publication in the Free Press attempted to understand the situation and determine how realistic the proposed project for the construction of new aircraft carriers.

S. Ischenko began his article with a reminder of news in the field of advanced shipbuilding, namely, obtaining a passport of export appearance for a new project. In addition, the author of the Free Press recalled the words of V. Polyakov about the intended appearance of the new ship and its aviation group. In this case, special attention was given to the proposal to equip the aircraft carrier with AWACS aircraft.

The mention of DRLO aircraft reveals an important problem. Such machines usually do not have high flight data and low mass. Because of this, they cannot take off from the nasal springboards like the “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov” available on the only Russian aircraft carrier. To ensure the take-off of such a technique, an aircraft carrier must carry launching catapults. However, our navy does not have such equipment and, moreover, never had. The consequence of this - in the context of the DRLO aircraft - was the absence of such equipment on the already mentioned “Admiral Kuznetsov”.

Based on these facts, the author of the publication “Russia will overwhelm with a future aircraft carrier” suggests that launching catapults will be an indispensable element of a future aircraft carrier. In addition, he notes that Russia "practically has" airborne early warning aircraft. This is the Yak-44E aircraft, developed in the eighties of the last century for use on the Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier of the 11437 project. After the collapse of the USSR, the unfinished ship went to an independent Ukraine and was butchered into metal, and in 1992, all the work on the ARLO plane for it stopped, because it was not needed. The development of the Yak-44E stopped at the stage of building experienced aircraft. Probably, S. Ischenko believes, you can return to this project. Or, at least, use the rest of his work.

The question remains catapults. Soviet and Russian specialists do not yet have experience in the development and construction of such equipment. Domestic aircraft carriers have not yet installed steam or electromagnetic devices that are now considered promising for acceleration of aircraft during takeoff. Naturally, this is a problem. And in the future, if it is decided to develop and build an aircraft carrier, specialists will have enough problems without catapults.

Photos of the aircraft carrier model proposed by the Krylov State Research Center have already become public knowledge for quite some time. S. Ishchenko believes that this model demonstrates one unpleasant feature of the project: the aircraft carrier’s developers are not counting on a catapult soon. For this reason, four starting positions with catapults and two with a springboard are visible on the layout. However, in the case of the Admiral Kuznetsov, the springboard has some unpleasant features: “while one of our aircraft is rising from its deck, from any American aircraft carrier equipped with catapults, four”. In the case of an open collision, this can have very unpleasant consequences.

Finally, the author of the Free Press cites some other facts about the project of the Krylov State Research Center. The proposed ship must be equipped with a non-nuclear power plant and have a flight deck with four launches for aircraft. Impact missile weapons, unlike previous domestic aircraft-carrying cruisers, are not provided. For self-defense, the ship must carry four Polymer-Redut complexes.

There are questions about the timing of construction. Last summer, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov said that by the end of the current decade, the military department did not intend to build a new aircraft carrier. In the current state armament program such expenditures are not provided. The beginning of the service of the new aircraft carrier belongs to the thirties. However, according to the author of the publication “Russia will overwhelm the future aircraft carrier,” and here the fleet may face serious problems.

The first is a construction site. Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the construction of aircraft carriers was engaged in the Black Sea Shipbuilding Plant in the city of Nikolaev. However, this company remained in another state, and its current state leaves much to be desired. In this case, the only possible builder of the aircraft carrier remains the Northern Machine-Building Enterprise or Sevmash (Severodvinsk), currently building new nuclear submarines.

Sevmash can build large ships, but the aircraft carrier with a displacement of 100 thousand tons is not capable of it yet. For the construction of such a ship you need a dock of appropriate size, which is currently missing. Thus, you first need to build the necessary dock, which is why an already not cheap promising project will become even more expensive.

The second problem of the Severodvinsk enterprise is personnel shortage. S. Ischenko recalls that in the two thousand years Sevmash, who received an order to remake the ship "Admiral of the Soviet Fleet Gorshkov" in the aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" for the Indian Navy, had to literally be lured by high salaries from all over the country. At the same time, the Admiral Gorshkov is almost half the size of the aircraft carrier offered by the specialists of the Krylov Center. However, despite all the efforts, the deadlines for passing Vikramaditya were repeatedly shifted.

From all this, the author of the Free Press draws a not-too-joyful conclusion: “It’s very likely that Russia simply forgot how to create large surface combat ships.” This, in his opinion, can explain the fact that the navy of Russia has not yet received a single ship of the first or second rank, fully developed and built in the post-Soviet era. So far, the fleet receives only comparatively small patrol, corvettes, anti-sabotage boats, etc. At the same time, the construction of relatively large frigates “Admiral Grigorovich” and “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov” comes with noticeable delays. On destroyers and missile cruisers, not to mention the aircraft carrier, while you only have to dream.

Also S. Ischenko notes the problems of personnel nature in research and design organizations. Probably the reason that the Krylov State Research Center, which has no experience in creating such ships, took up designing an aircraft carrier was the inability of other organizations to do so. Previous domestic aircraft carriers were created in the Nevsky Design Bureau. The problems of the past decades have hit the organization hard.

Here, the author of the publication “Russia will overthrow the future aircraft carrier” suggests considering the possibility of abandoning the future construction of aircraft carriers. In favor of such a proposal, he cites the article Nuclear Submarines: America's New Aircraft Carriers? (“Nuclear submarines - a replacement for aircraft carriers?”), Recently published in The National Interest. The main idea of ​​this article is simple: it is proposed to change the structure and strategy of the US Navy over the next few years. The main striking force instead of aircraft carriers should be multi-purpose submarines with cruise missiles. Submarines are capable with greater efficiency and lower costs to perform the entire range of tasks assigned to aircraft carriers.

The author of the publication in The National Interest refers to the captain of the first rank, retired Henry J. Hendrix, who is now working in the Center for a New American Security and is a consistent opponent of the aircraft carrier fleet. G. Hendrix notes some of the problems of aircraft carriers. So, modern anti-ship missiles of Russia and China in the event of a war start will force the US carrier strike groups (AUG) to keep a long distance from the coast. Removing hundreds or thousands of miles from the coast will seriously complicate the combat work of aviation. In addition, American AUGs can be tracked relatively easily using reconnaissance satellites.

Nuclear submarines, according to G. Hendrix, are devoid of such problems. A few years ago, four Ohio-type submarines underwent repairs and upgrades, during which they received launchers for Tomahawk missiles. Each of the upgraded submarines carries 154 rockets. The potential of the updated Ohio in 2011 was clearly demonstrated by the submarine USS Florida (SSGN-728). Launching 90 missiles, she single-handedly destroyed almost the entire Libyan air defense system.

Only three Ohio multipurpose submarines can carry Tomahawk 462 missiles. In the future, in the opinion of G. Hendrix, new, more advanced missiles should appear, which will increase the strike power of submarines. Based on the advantages of submarines with cruise missiles, a retired officer proposes to abandon the construction of the aircraft carrier USS Gerard R. Ford (CVN-78) and subsequent ships of this project in favor of the new submarines. For the money allocated for the construction of one aircraft carrier, the fleet will be able to acquire literally a dozen multi-purpose submarines, which will allow it to determine the outcome of almost any non-nuclear war.

The author of the Free Press publication has to admit that the newest Russian multi-purpose nuclear submarines of the 885 Yasen project currently under construction are losing to the modernized Ohio in terms of ammunition. Each such submarine carries only 32 launchers for cruise missiles. Nevertheless, according to S. Ishchenko, instead of a new aircraft carrier one could build several Yasen submarines. The aircraft carrier itself, in turn, if built, could become a serious problem for the whole country.

The articles of Expert Online and Svobodnaya Pressa perfectly illustrate the current situation with plans to build an aircraft carrier. Indeed, the command of the Navy intends in the future to develop and build such a ship. The requirements for it, as far as is known, have not yet been defined. Nevertheless, approximate terms of performance of works are already defined and announced. Around 2030 a year or later, the combat strength of the Russian Navy will be able to be replenished with a new aircraft carrier, the first in several decades.

The implementation of complex projects is always associated with a lot of various problems. Construction of a promising Russian aircraft carrier is unlikely to be an exception to this rule. Shipbuilders in the future will have to solve a lot of problems, both technical or technological, and of a production nature. It will be necessary to develop a lot of new systems and units, as well as to find and prepare a site for construction. And all this will have to be done in the conditions of the constant emergence of new problems, against which not a single large, bold and ambitious project is insured.

As for the proposals relating to the rejection of aircraft carriers in favor of submarines, it is too early to discuss such ideas in the context of the development of the Russian Navy. To determine the need for ships and submarines of various classes, it is necessary to formulate a clear strategy for the development and use of the navy. The emergence of such a document will allow to adjust the plans for the construction and development of new ships and, in particular, to determine the need for aircraft carriers or a large number of multi-purpose submarines.


Based on:
http://expert.ru/2015/04/13/kryilataya-mechta-moryakov/
http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/118788/
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/nuclear-submarines-americas-new-aircraft-carriers-12560
195 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +19
    April 21 2015 06: 23
    As for the proposals relating to the rejection of aircraft carriers in favor of submarines, it is too early to discuss such ideas in the context of the development of the Russian Navy. To determine the need for ships and submarines of various classes, it is necessary to formulate a clear strategy for the development and use of the navy. The emergence of such a document will allow to adjust the plans for the construction and development of new ships and, in particular, to determine the need for aircraft carriers or a large number of multi-purpose submarines.

    Karl Dennets, one of the best German admirals, also tried to win the war in the Atlantic with submarines alone, as the British fleet with battleships alone, as a result, the aircraft carriers did their job
    It is not advisable to develop one at the expense of the other. A well-balanced fleet can bring to its knees an unbalanced and overly expensive fleet using enemy weaknesses
    1. +19
      April 21 2015 08: 01
      one must proceed from expediency and military doctrine. and you can argue with foam at the mouth ad infinitum, comrade strategists.
      1. +6
        April 21 2015 10: 28
        Just a couple more questions.
        Is it possible in the near future to replace aircraft launched from an aircraft carrier on a UAV? Is it possible to distribute the functions of carrier-based aircraft between UAVs and jet systems? Will there be a need for the take-off and landing of the UAV in the maintenance of such a deck as on an aircraft carrier?
        1. +5
          April 21 2015 11: 08
          So far these questions are open, while questions are open about the possibility of their implementation - there will be no aircraft carriers, or it will be built in 20 years. Therefore, doctrine, strategy, etc. fading into the background, at the moment it is unrealizable. There will be readiness - there will be aircraft carriers. And the readiness will be when Nikolaev becomes part of Russia))))
        2. +4
          April 21 2015 13: 19
          or maybe it’s easier to design a UAV. launched from the missile shaft of a submarine ... and there will be a universal carrier ... br.kr.blah !?
          1. +5
            April 21 2015 14: 21
            launched from a missile silo of a submarine ...


            And how will he come back? By parachute to the water? Then it will be possible to tighten it on a surface ship, but on a submarine?
            Or will it initially be disposable? Radars and OLSs of the AWACS level (yes, of the level of a modern fighter) are for the time being an expensive pleasure.
            Will return to shore - can you imagine what range he needs? If it will be used in the open sea, since reconnaissance aircraft models for the coastal zone - at least eat in an unnatural way.

            UAV


            And you will also need to ensure the impossibility of intercepting control of this UAV by the enemy.
            By the way, if there are experts in international law: is currently taking over control of a military UAV of another country in neutral airspace, followed by theft of this UAV, an act of military aggression?
            1. 0
              April 21 2015 20: 57
              in principle, when using a submarine as a UAV carrier, it can emerge at launch-reception (reception only) ... (from an aircraft carrier, immersion is not required ...)
      2. +3
        April 21 2015 18: 00
        Hmm. We must proceed from the tasks of the Navy. On the continent, we will repulse any enemy fleet. But aircraft carriers are very necessary for offensive operations - but we are not going to attack anyone in the next 20-30 years, we would have to defend our own.
      3. +2
        April 23 2015 16: 30
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        one must proceed from expediency and military doctrine. and you can argue with foam at the mouth ad infinitum, comrade strategists.
        Reply Quote Report Abuse

        It would be possible to make a knight's move and go on the other side, namely, to revive the Yak-141 vertical take-off fighter project, modernize the project so that it corresponds to the 4 ++ generation, but there is one flaw in this regard, no one will supply us with Mistral. ..
        1. 0
          April 23 2015 20: 26
          When they did it and there wasn’t bully all the more so for its base, the Mistral is almost twice as large as required.
          1. +1
            April 23 2015 22: 05
            Quote: Scraptor
            When it was made by them, and especially not for its base, Mistral was almost twice as large as required.

            In any case, we currently do not have a ship capable of receiving vertical take-off aircraft. Kuznetsov does not count, because there are their own aircraft. By the way, maybe the Mistrals were not sold to us for the reason that we were suddenly afraid that we would revive vertical take-off planes? Otherwise, what is the point of refusing supplies, we should not be afraid of our helicopters, the low-speed ship of 19 knots is at maximum speed, the armament on it is set to minimum.
            1. 0
              April 23 2015 23: 29
              in any case, Kuzya counts, as such can be based on him. there are other ships, such aircraft are capable of operating both on land and at sea from helicopter-sized sites — that is, from any medium-sized ship or civilian ship. laughing

              meaning is out of harm ... bully
    2. +5
      April 21 2015 09: 18
      Quote: insafufa
      some submarines as well as the British fleet alone battleships as a result, the aircraft carriers did their job

      An aircraft carrier then did not cost astronomical sums, like a battleship, for example, and you could rivet them in dozens, even without taking into account the very simple forms in the form of an escort aircraft carrier.
      1. +17
        April 21 2015 10: 05
        Interestingly, no one argues against aviation - it is needed. Nobody argues against airfields with all the infrastructure and kilometer-long runways - it is necessary. Air force bases in the right places in the world are also unlikely to find opponents. But the aircraft carrier immediately becomes a useless fool, and an unnecessary, expensive toy, and a weapon of US aggression against the banana countries ... The aircraft carrier is not a whim, and not an end in itself, it is a product of the development of military-technical progress, in particular, naval weapons, in which deck aviation took its rightful place, he is its carrier. The aircraft carrier is much more efficient and cheaper than a stationary air force base, and it has a lot of tasks, both in war and peacetime. A mobile naval airfield can appear anywhere in the world ocean, and there is no need to pay for the lease of such an air base, no need to ask permission to place it. Enough already, a modern military fleet is unthinkable without naval aviation. How many aircraft carriers do we need (as well as cruisers, destroyers, etc.), and which ones, this is another question, one thing is undoubtedly, a full-fledged fleet harmoniously includes all classes of ships, and surpassing America in the number of aircraft carriers (or destroyers, frigates) is not the point , the essence is to have a strong fleet. We could have long ago had a full-fledged nuclear aircraft carrier, which, not without the influence of the United States, was cut on the slipway. It is unlikely that seeing him under the St. Andrew's flag would now be "economists" and "alternatives" with "cheap and angry", exclaiming, "but what for?"
        1. 0
          April 21 2015 17: 30
          Quote: Per se.
          An aircraft carrier is much more efficient and cheaper than a fixed air force base,

          You would at least think, before such "opuses" ... and the order of protection and escort? just minus you and that's it. "! negative estimate the price ...
          1. +13
            April 21 2015 18: 25
            Quote: Andrey Yurievich
            You would at least think, before such "opuses" ... and the order of protection and escort? just a minus to you and that's it. "! negative estimate the price ...

            YOU estimate the price. An aircraft carrier, unlike air bases, has mobility. So think about how many air bases will be needed to cover all the vulnerable points of the same far east. Then think about how much it will cost you to cover these same points (S-300/400, etc.) Then consider that an escort for an aircraft carrier can solve independent tasks (the same strike with cruise missiles, for example), but cover for an expanded network of air bases cannot solve any other problems.
            And considering all this - yes, estimate the price.
            1. 0
              April 22 2015 03: 59
              One aircraft carrier .. yes, it will not be more expensive ..))) but the Amers have not one group! An aircraft carrier is only carrier-based aviation, a base is any aircraft, including long-range!
              1. 0
                April 22 2015 07: 26
                with an aircraft carrier tactical becomes distant.
                1. 0
                  April 22 2015 10: 56
                  Oh, maybe strategic ...)))?
                  1. -2
                    April 22 2015 12: 08
                    that’s exactly ... and in contrast to the strategic one, you can’t get it so easily in aerial combat.
                    1. -1
                      April 29 2015 21: 25
                      ... and where will the two minuses explain?
          2. +4
            April 21 2015 20: 29
            Quote: Andrey Yurievich
            You would at least think, before such "opuses" ... and the order of protection and escort?
            Dear Andrey Yuryevich, I thought, and not only thought, but also knew different opinions of specialists. Andrey from Chelyabinsk, in principle, answered you for me, I can only say that you are also an honorable minus from me. As you noted above, you should not argue with foaming at the mouth, but also treat the topic at the level of "quietly murmuring water in the latrine, I like the underwater service," and that's not correct either.
            1. 0
              April 22 2015 11: 47
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk did not answer anything, but I will answer! Look at the photo, plus a couple of multipurpose nuclear submarines are constantly prowling around the AUG, and this is only one AUG of amers, do you really think that a land air base will be cheaper to build and maintain than such a group of combat -modern ships ..))? One aircraft carrier "Ford" costs about 11.5 billion dollars, without an air wing, without a crew, and without a warrant! For the Black Sea base, for example, Russia paid $ 90 million a year, how ... did you compare? And even more ... ask how much it costs for the US Navy a day to park an aircraft carrier at the quay wall, you will be extremely surprised! And the training of 4.5 thousand personnel with flight personnel ...)) for a Ford, how much will it take to fly? this is an irreparable loss that will damage the entire fleet! When the Brits captured the islands, what they did first ... that's right, they riveted cheap runways from tin ..)), a minimum of personnel, a minimum of maintenance equipment, and the required amount of fuel and ammunition, everything .... baseready! This is not a pity to lose, and it is easy to restore, if only there was no aviation on it at the time of the attack! You probably don't know about jump airfields, you don't know that the military, upon request, can use any civilian airfields ..)? Andrei from Chelyabinsk also has a "network of air bases" in the Far East, there are two or three bases behind his eyes, if something happens, they will take off and land wherever possible, on any runways!
              1. +1
                April 22 2015 12: 13
                Quote: igorka357
                Andrey from Chelyabinsk didn’t answer anything, but I’ll answer! Look at the photo, plus a couple more multipurpose nuclear submarines stopudovo prowling around the AUG, and this is only one AUG of amers, do you really think that a land base will be cheaper to build and discuss than such a group of combat -modern ships ..))

                Can a land base move at a speed of 30 knots? Are land bases able to concentrate in the required area?
                How many bases are needed to "emulate" one aircraft carrier in its area of ​​operation?
                Quote: igorka357
                One aircraft carrier "Ford" costs about $ 11.5 billion, without an air wing, without a crew, and without a warrant! For the Black Sea base, for example, Russia paid $ 90 million a year, how ... did you compare?

                Warm with soft? Yes thank you.
                The estimated cost of building a pulp and paper mill for naval aviation in Yeysk (in fact, restructuring an existing air base) amounted to 24 billion rubles. Still those pre-sanctioned. And this is only an estimate.
                Quote: igorka357
                When the shaves captured the islands, what did they do first ... correctly, riveted cheap runways from tin ..)), a minimum of staff, a minimum of maintenance equipment, and the required number of fuel and lubricants and ammunition, everything .... the base is ready !

                Do you know why? Because they did not have a normal aircraft carrier with normal aircraft. laughing
                Admirals RN at that time gnawed at their elbows that they could not save the last carrier of "Phantoms" from decommissioning. Because the time of patrolling and the load of "dicks" when working with the AV was not enough either for normal air defense or for work along the coast.
                1. 0
                  April 22 2015 13: 00
                  Maybe they gnawed, but without the "dicks" the British would have lost many clumsy phantoms (if not all). And then the Phantom cannot be dragged to the coastal base so easily - it needs a long concrete strip. And Khor works in general from the ground.

                  With the MiG-21 one-class Mirage, Phantosh in Vietnam spanked the current into the path.

                  And on the contrary, not a single Pole was lost in aerial combat, and they worked more efficiently from the coastal forward base when attacking the Agrnetin positions.
                2. 0
                  April 22 2015 17: 08
                  Russia is not an aggressor, and it’s not going to move its bases, scare banana papua!
                  Is everything all right with arithmetic? Maybe you can transfer 24 billion rubles to dollars, even 30 rubles for one dollar, or help you ..? And the shavers did land bases primarily because land is always more reliable than a floating platform for aircraft , and of course, also because they simply weren’t there, but I’m sure that even if they had aircraft carriers, they would have built the runways on land, anyway they built !!
                  1. -1
                    April 22 2015 17: 58
                    I’m calm down - we won’t give you bananas, so sit on a bleached ...
              2. +1
                April 22 2015 12: 30
                Nothing is needed for an aircraft carrier - he himself attaches himself to other ships and provides their protection with his aircraft ... Well, or then it is worth abandoning the ocean fleet, since without his aircraft above it in battle it costs many times less.
                Coastal airbase for such a number of aircraft, imagine it is more expensive. Reinforced concrete products and earthworks are more expensive than metalwork.
                Britain would never have returned these islands without its aircraft carriers. The coastal bases appeared on them when the Task Force, covered by its aircraft, was able to approach and seize the bridgehead. Only attack aircraft were based there, the fighters were still only on ships, which departed from the islands much east ...
              3. 0
                April 22 2015 19: 40
                Quote: igorka357
                but I will answer!
                Do you think, Igor, that you are "Captain Obvious", or the ultimate truth? They pushed like a fool, which is beneficial from the United States, which is beneficial from Russia, they proved that horseradish is thicker than a finger, you will also talk about jump airfields ...
                Regarding the high cost of modern aircraft carriers, it is appropriate to quote an article by Norman Polmar, a leading American expert in matters of naval construction, published in 1970: “A modern strike aircraft carrier costs about 600 million dollars. It is envisaged that he will be in the fleet for about 30 years.

                In 1945, the United States lost many military bases in overseas territories. During the same period of time, no aircraft carrier was lost. In an effort to increase the mobility of tactical aviation wings, the Air Force command creates special mobile units with the help of which it can quickly turn the runways available in the territory of any country into airfields. There are 6000 personnel in the mobile unit of a tactical aviation wing, equivalent to the wing of an attack aircraft carrier, there are 7000 tons of cargo and 1500 different cars. Every day for such a unit it is necessary to deliver about 3000 tons of various cargoes, including food. In addition, at the newly built airfields, it is necessary to organize air defense, to establish systems for their supply and support, which is equivalent in value to the organization of protection of an aircraft carrier at sea. The defense of airfields is very important, this is evidenced by the fact that only during the Vietnam War at American airfields did the enemy destroy 300 and damage 3000 aircraft.
                Thus, the material costs of operating an attack aircraft carrier along with security ships and auxiliary supply vessels are almost the same as the costs of maintaining a tactical air wing of the Air Force based on ground-based airfields.
                However, unlike a stationary aerodrome, an attack aircraft carrier has the ability to move 600 miles and operate in any area of ​​the World Ocean during the day, at the same time it can stay in a given area for the required period of time, being in constant combat readiness. "
              4. +2
                April 22 2015 19: 50
                Quote: igorka357
                Andrey from Chelyabinsk didn’t answer anything, but I’ll answer

                did not answer
                Quote: igorka357
                Look at the photo, plus a couple more multipurpose nuclear submarines stopudovo prowls around the AUG, and this is only one AUG of amers, do you really think that a land air base will be cheaper to build and discuss than such a group of modern combat ships.

                The modern AUG is 1 aircraft carrier, 5 destroyers of the Arly Burke type, 1 supply ship and 2 nuclear submarines.
                Quote: igorka357
                A single aircraft carrier Ford is worth roughly $ 11.5 billion, no wing, no crew, and no warrant!

                Yeah ... only now the aircraft carrier costs no more than a dozen - 11,5 is because it is the first in the series, R&D is hung on it. We add to this 5 EMs of 1,9 billion each and 2 nuclear submarines of 2 billion each, a supply provider for polar resources - total (without airplanes) - 25,5 billion. Air group - let 70 airplanes of 100 million each (total 7 billion) and 10 helicopters of 25 million - another 250 million, but in total - roughly 33 billion. Only here, our air group does not participate in the calculation - we are comparing the airfield with an aircraft carrier, right?
                The cost of one airport Berlin-Brandenburg exceeded 5 billion euros :) But he can’t move, he can’t hammer at the enemy’s tomahawks, he can’t shoot down satellites, he can’t interrupt the enemy’s communications at sea :))
                Our airport cost is about 25 billion rubles. Normal, civil. Moreover, to receive an air group of a large aircraft carrier, such aerodromes will need two. And you need a network of such airfields.
                But after all, the aircraft carrier will cost us much cheaper than the US - depending on the capabilities, it was estimated at 100-250 billion rubles.
                Quote: igorka357
                For example, Russia paid $ 90 million a year for the Black Sea base, so how ... compared?

                Yeah. But nothing that besides $ 90 million a year, Russia also bore ALL the costs of its maintenance? :))) 90 million - this is just a rental
                Quote: igorka357
                And the training of 4.5 thousand personnel with flight personnel ...))

                And where does the staff and flight personnel? You are a supporter of airfields, well - but it should even be clear to you that planes are needed EVERYTHING - whether you have an aircraft carrier or you have a network of airfields :))) And planes require 25 to 50 man-hours of service for every hour of flight, so that the costs of maintaining an army of specialists will still be
                1. +1
                  April 22 2015 19: 50
                  Quote: igorka357
                  ! When the Britons captured the islands

                  the loss of the Britons in this capture recall? The British with their SAM + harriers against the Argentines with their bombs and NURs, which have not yet exploded? And if Argentina had enough anti-ship missiles and modern Etandars at that time?
                  Quote: igorka357
                  What else does Andrey have from Chelyabinsk "network of air bases" in the Far East, there are two or three bases behind the eyes, if something happens, they will take off and land wherever possible, on any runways

                  laughing
                  In your opinion, are civilian airfields all stuck there? :))) And civilian ones, how are they - are there ammunition stockpiles, shelters, air defense systems - is this all there?
                  In 2010, for the entire Far East, we had AJ 4 airbases - Nikolaevka, Mongohto, Knevichi, Yelizovo. Look on the map where it is, how they are distributed along the Far East, find the large cities and their airfields, as well as the take-off / landing capabilities of these civilian airfields. And imagine where we could concentrate a couple of regiments of attack aircraft and at least a regiment of fighters (it’s pointless to storm AUG
                  You will become VERY sad.
                  1. +1
                    April 24 2015 13: 34
                    MB is to build "Civil" airfields (and generally develop infrastructure) and the population is good for defense (and cheaper than an aircraft carrier ...
                    1. -1
                      April 26 2015 18: 52
                      and he can ride along the shore as well as walk on water?
          3. 0
            April 22 2015 03: 57
            A man expressed his opinion without thinking ...))) he is not worth it so much for this ...)))! He does not even know the price of parking at the wall of an atomic aircraft carrier, I'm sure!
      2. +3
        April 21 2015 11: 05
        Quote: tomket
        The aircraft carrier was not worth astronomical sums then, like the battleship, for example, and you could rivet them in dozens.

        And if you turn to the numbers?
        South Dakota - $ 77 million, Iowa - a little over 100 million, the most expensive (New Jersey) - 114 million.
        AB without aviation: Essex - 55 million (1942), Midway - 90 million (1945).
        (c) from the old Tsushima forum

        Pay attention to the line "no aviation". And do not forget that in addition to airplanes, expensive pilots are also needed: training for a naval aviation pilot is at least 250-300 flight hours.
    3. +13
      April 21 2015 10: 19
      Quote: insafufa
      Karl Dennetz, one of the best German Admirals, also tried to win the war in the Atlantic with submarines alone, as did the British fleet with battleships alone.


      do not create myths. Dönitz did not try to win the war with submarines alone. Moreover, having become at the helm of the entire fleet of the 3rd Reich, he just saved most of the large ships from being cut into metal. As an old submariner, he knew the price of submarine cover. And the British did not fight with battleships alone. The British were the authors of the idea of ​​the aircraft carrier, and in 41, for example, they had only 4 armored aircraft carriers. And in Singapore they would have taken not only the Prince of Wales and Repals (for slaughter), but intended to add to them the aircraft carriers "Ark Royal" or "Indomeable". But the first was sunk shortly before, and the second ran aground and had to send the battleships themselves, which determined their fate.
    4. +16
      April 21 2015 10: 35
      Karl Dennetz, one of the best German Admirals, also tried to win the war in the Atlantic with submarines alone, as did the British fleet with battleships alone. As a result, the aircraft carriers did their job.
      Then there was no anti-ship missile system, but now any "battleship" can be overwhelmed by the question of the number of missiles spent on it.
      And we "need" an aircraft carrier as a spare wheel for a car, and suddenly the wheel will crash. In the Northern Fleet it is problematic to operate an aircraft carrier, in the Baltic it is simply impossible, in the Black Sea it is not needed, the Pacific Ocean remains, but there the mainland of Russia is covered by islands, and between Vladivostok and Japan everything is rocket fire.
      The question immediately arises: why do we need an aircraft carrier? To climb into South America or Africa to tyrannize. As I understand it, fans of aircraft carriers are haunted by the laurels of "world" policemen.
      1. -4
        April 21 2015 10: 55
        Quote: Alexey M
        The question immediately arises: why do we need an aircraft carrier? To climb into South America or Africa to tyrannize. As I understand it, fans of aircraft carriers are haunted by the laurels of "world" policemen.


        why nuclear missiles? they were never used at all. We are not going to attack, we are not going to conquer the whole world.
        1. +1
          April 21 2015 15: 29
          And if you think?
          1. 0
            April 21 2015 15: 48
            Quote: NordUral
            And if you think?


            was it for me?
            1. 0
              April 22 2015 11: 49
              You, dear to you ..)))!
          2. 0
            April 22 2015 11: 48
            And there it’s probably useless ..)))!
      2. 0
        April 21 2015 11: 12
        Quote: Alexey M
        And we "need" an aircraft carrier as a spare wheel for a car, what if a wheel gets punctured. It is problematic to operate an aircraft carrier in the Northern Fleet,

        It is only a pity that the Americans and the British do not know about this.
        Quote: Alexey M
        The question immediately arises: why do we need an aircraft carrier?

        In the near future - to ensure the combat stability of the naval group, covering the launch areas of our SSBNs. In naval aviation, unlike coastal aviation, the reaction rate is higher and the required outfit of forces is less. To keep the link above the ship, you need to have a squadron on the shore, and, if anything, help will come to this link only in an hour (so that coastal aviation will also have to keep an excess outfit in the air).
        1. +7
          April 21 2015 13: 44
          It is only a pity that the Americans and the British do not know about this.
          And what, someone saw the US aircraft carrier near Murmansk? I strongly doubt that the aircraft carrier is capable of working in the North. Read about the operation of Kuznetsov.
          Naval aviation is a truncated land force and it is not entirely correct to compare an air wing on an AUG with a coast. Plus an airfield can be repaired in a few hours and an aircraft carrier is not. AUG itself needs protection, see where and how aircraft carriers were used after the war.
          1. 0
            April 21 2015 14: 57
            Quote: Alexey M
            And what, someone saw the US aircraft carrier near Murmansk? I strongly doubt that the aircraft carrier is capable of working in the North. Read about the operation of Kuznetsov.

            Even the ancient "Intrepid" in 1971 worked in the Arctic Circle in the Barents Sea. Of the more modern - "Karl Vinson" (1986, Bering Sea).
            Quote: Alexey M
            Naval aviation is a truncated land and it is not entirely correct to compare the wing on the AUG with the shore.

            As for the "truncated land" - tell the "Phantoms" and "Hornets". The times of carrier aviation lagging behind coastal aviation passed 70 years ago - in WWII.

            And let's compare a 48-60-72 drummer aboard an AB with coastal aviation. Say, the Murmansk region: 3 airdromes with 1 regiment on each. 60 cars on the beach.
            And then remember that the AVs do not work alone. So, in the North 4 equipped airbases can run, each carrying one and a half regiment.
            Quote: Alexey M
            Plus, the airfield can be repaired in a few hours, but there is no aircraft carrier.

            But the airfield stands still, and it is possible to work on it even JDAM, at least ammunition with inertial guidance. Critically vulnerable points of the airfield infrastructure are well known and have long been tied to the terrain. And they can’t get anywhere.
            I'm not talking about the fact that you can work out a much wider type of submunition at the airfield. Some anti-transport and anti-personnel aviation mines in the planning cartridges / CD which cost ... at least a couple of days to mine.
            Quote: Alexey M
            AUG itself needs protection; see where and how aircraft carriers were used after the war.

            Does the airfield need protection?
            1. +3
              April 21 2015 15: 31
              And the pants will not fall off when you consider the cost of a full-fledged AUG?
              1. +4
                April 21 2015 17: 22
                Quote: NordUral
                And the pants will not fall off when you consider the cost of a full-fledged AUG?

                Pants will fall off twice if you calculate the cost of a substitute for a full-fledged AUG capable of solving the same problems in the same space.
                1. +4
                  April 21 2015 17: 27
                  That's for sure. But for some reason many do not understand this ... drinks
                2. 0
                  April 22 2015 11: 59
                  Replacing AUG is basically impossible, but that is not the question ..))! Why is it for Russia to scare Papua New Guinea ... or how it is written there ..))?
                  1. 0
                    April 22 2015 12: 51
                    What's your business? Then why should others ...

                    Here they are now bombing friendly Yemen, and before the Yugov and Libya they were bombing.
            2. +4
              April 22 2015 11: 57
              And let's compare a 48-60-72 drummer aboard an AB with coastal aviation. Say, the Murmansk region: 3 airdromes with 1 regiment on each. 60 cars on the beach.
              And then remember that the AVs do not work alone. So, in the North 4 equipped airbases can run, each carrying one and a half regiment.
              Oh, one more thrust, I'm just blaming you ..)))! The defining characteristic of the combat power of an aircraft carrier is not so much the total number of the wing as the speed with which this wing can be lifted into the air and start performing combat missions, did you understand? The size of the air wing as a whole mainly affects the assessment of combat stability, and not striking power or the ability to provide cover for the fleet, did you understand? The large air wing allows alternating aircraft, creates reserves for replenishing losses, allows routine repairs and maintenance of aircraft without interruption in combat operations, ensures crew rotation, reducing the workload for each individual pilot, etc. But in real operations, the wing is never used at its full strength, only part of it is used. The heterogeneous composition of the air group makes it simply impossible to use the entire wing: there is no point in simultaneously using all the support vehicles, helicopters, fighters and attack aircraft on board! Well, how? It seems that you are "in the subject" about the US AUG ...)))
        2. 0
          April 22 2015 11: 52
          In the near future - to ensure the combat stability of ship g
          rupping covering the launch areas of our SSBNs
          From whom to cover? What kind of attack is this ..))? The enemy knows the patrol areas of our SSBNs, he knows from which areas our nuclear powered ships will launch, in which case ...? Funny ..)))!
          1. -1
            April 22 2015 12: 48
            Any other arguments other than "Funny" will there be?
      3. +2
        April 21 2015 14: 35
        The question immediately arises: why do we need an aircraft carrier?


        By itself - nafig is not needed.
        We need reconnaissance aircraft in the areas of military bases of an incredible enemy and the combat duty of the Russian SSBNs to track the actions of the enemy fleet. Compared to aviation, so far no system can monitor such large areas of the ocean.
        So there will be barrage scouts launched from land, constantly hanging in these areas - aircraft carriers are not needed.
        There will be aerial reconnaissance using UAVs launched by their universal missile cells (an interesting idea, but with its implementation a very large number of problems) - aircraft carriers are not needed.
        In the meantime, it turns out that such aircraft need to be based on something. But so far, this does not threaten Russia - it does not have deck-based scouting barriers.
        1. +2
          April 21 2015 23: 04
          Quote: Assistant
          Compared to aviation, so far no system can monitor such large areas of the ocean.

          Has satellite intelligence been stolen yet? belay
          1. 0
            April 22 2015 01: 44
            Has satellite intelligence been stolen yet?


            Satellite reconnaissance, capable of monitoring the ocean in the quality that reconnaissance aircraft can do, has not yet been created.
            1. 0
              April 22 2015 12: 08
              Come on, give you HD quality photos AUG ....))))? Damn, how could it hurt you to start thinking, a))? MKRTs "legend" fired AUG at three-fifteen without problems, sorry of course, but the quality of the photo was not HD ..))! And you can ask the ocean why monitor ..))? Oh, killed, maybe you are an oceanologist by profession ..)))?
              1. -1
                April 22 2015 12: 54
                Well, they shot down your legend with a deck, then what? Or "fell by itself" like the Tu-16 that flew for detection ...
            2. 0
              April 24 2015 13: 46
              satellite reconnaissance doesn’t react like that to a change in situation (in my opinion) being tied to a trajectory and the high energy costs of changing it ...
          2. +2
            April 22 2015 12: 03
            Yes, I’ll look at those who "zavianosnuyu Russian" and say that nothing really can ..))) !!!
            1. -2
              April 22 2015 12: 52
              They write here and don’t say ... Wipe your eyes - you will see.
        2. +1
          April 22 2015 12: 02
          To do this, you need an analogue of a "legend" and just, I hope you know what it is ..))? There is a "legend" everything that you wrote will not matter!
      4. 0
        April 21 2015 15: 29
        That's it.
    5. +6
      April 21 2015 14: 32
      The fate of Germany was decided not on the sea, but on land in the battle of two continental powers - Germany and the USSR. If in the war of two naval powers - Japan and the United States, aircraft carriers really made a serious contribution, then their presence on the European front did not affect. At the same time, the numbers of the Allied trade and military tonnage sunk by the German submariners are off scale. And our submariners contributed to the victory over the Nazis. At the same time, surface ships were quite vulnerable to the enemy - just remember the breakthrough from Tallinn to Kronstadt.
      In general, I am for the construction of several ash trees instead of an expensive, vulnerable and, in my opinion, useless ship. In my opinion, we need to develop in every possible way what we can do well, and not try to make it like everyone else — build because amers have it. They need aircraft carriers because of geography, but we don’t because of the same geography. For reconnaissance, there are satellites, blahs, cruise missiles to attack the coast, and what 36 aircraft can do so special, which submarines and other ships are not capable of, I do not see.
      1. +2
        April 21 2015 21: 03
        Quote: g1v2
        At the same time, surface ships were quite vulnerable to the enemy - just remember the breakthrough from Tallinn to Kronstadt.
        When our ships broke through to Kronstadt, they were sunk not by boats, but by German aircraft, which once again demonstrated its effectiveness. The aircraft of the base and carrier-based aviation also ensured the neutralization of the Doenitz boats in the Atlantic, and to say that this did not affect the European theater of operations in any way, it is not to understand the significance of the same deliveries under Lend-Lease, and the general opportunity to defend England, to prepare the landing in Normandy. British aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean significantly neutralized the strong Italian fleet, and, accordingly, the actions of the Italian-German forces in North Africa. Finally, the battleship Bismarck was sunk precisely due to damage from a deck torpedo bomber, which deprived the Germans of a very powerful ship, which, together with Tirpitz, could terrorize Arctic convoys in the USSR after its raiding. You, perhaps, are for the construction of "Ash", but who will cover them at the exit from the bases, in the area of ​​combat deployment and patrolling? Submariners are the elite of our fleet, and any submariner officer understands the importance of such cover for boats with his surface ships and aircraft. The Americans need aircraft carriers not because of their geography, but because aircraft carriers are effective weapons, and aircraft carriers are building, or want to have, all countries in the world that have strong navies.
    6. +9
      April 21 2015 18: 54
      Quote: insafufa
      as a result, the aircraft carriers did their job

      Of all the military branches of the Wehrmacht, few achieved such successes, almost knocking the enemy to their knees, like the German submarine fleet, commanded by Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz.

      The total losses of Kriegsmarine in World War II amounted to 766 submarines. The annual losses of German submarines are distributed as follows:
      1939 year - 9 submarines;
      1940 year - 24 submarines;
      1941 year - 35 submarines;
      1942 year - 86 submarines;
      1943 year - 243 submarines;
      1944 year - 249 submarines;
      1945 year - 120 submarines.

      The total losses of the allies and neutral countries from German submarines were, according to one 2820 ship, with a total tonnage of about 14600000 gross register tons, according to other, more accurate data, 2779 ships with a total tonnage of about 14100000 gross register tons.

      During World War II, 123 warships were sunk by submarines, including two battleships, three aircraft carriers, four escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers and 33 destroyers. In addition, during the war, German submarines destroyed 4 submarines, 10 auxiliary cruisers, 4 sloops, 9 frigates, 16 corvettes, 7 minesweepers, 18 trawlers, 29 oil ships serving the fleet, and a number of other fleets.
      ---------------------------
      Cheap and angry


      If the kriegsmarines had aircraft carriers and a handful of battleships 6, the Wehrmacht tank divisions would stand up (or rather they wouldn’t be, there wouldn’t be enough steel rolling), and the submarines would not go to sea
      1. +1
        April 22 2015 18: 47
        Quote: opus
        The total losses of Kriegsmarine in World War II amounted to 766 submarines.

        That with an average displacement of 750 tons gives us 574 thousand tons of dead tonnage. THIS IS MORE THAN THE WHOLE AIRLINE AND LINEAR NAVY OF UK before the outbreak of war! laughing
        Quote: opus
        Cheap and angry

        Strange concepts about cheapness and anger
        Besides, we seem to be discussing the counteraction of aircraft carriers and submarines? So look at the statistics. Yours, yes. When did the Germans start having real problems? 1943 year. When did the bulk of the escort aircraft carriers go into service? the end of 1942 and 1943 ... Remind you of May 1943, when the "Doenitz boys" paid for 34 transport ships with 43 submarines?
    7. 0
      April 22 2015 03: 52
      You already decide ... either balanced, or the aircraft carriers did the job ... otherwise you are fundamentally contradicting yourself in two sentences !!!
    8. 0
      April 28 2015 21: 27
      As a result, the aircraft carriers did their job

      What result are we talking about?
      What did the aircraft carriers do?
      1. 0
        April 28 2015 21: 41
        Well, look at "War in the Pacific" ... battleships are over with aircraft carriers.
  2. +18
    April 21 2015 06: 23
    Americans are threatening to create hypersonic missiles (GZR) (including in the variant of anti-ship missiles with a launch range of 1000 km) by 2018-2020. Our designers - by 2020. We install GZR instead of Onyx on coastal missile systems. Carriers will be forced to withdraw from the coast by at least 1000 km. We use bombers accompanied by fighter planes with a combat radius of 1500 km as carriers of hot missile defense. Plus, the flight range of the GZR is 1000 km. Altogether 2500 km from fighter-based airfields - at this distance, the aircraft will feel relatively safe (we do not take into account submarines with missile defense systems on board). A carrier-based AWACS patrol, usually patrolling 200 km from AB, can detect bombers with a maximum of 600-700 km from themselves (800-900 km from AB). Consequently, the bombers will make the launch of the SLR and go unnoticed to the shore. Thus, the AB will be forced to remain inactive in the ocean 2500 km from the coast or break through to it for at least a day, and then move under the fire of the GZR providing take-off and landing of carrier-based aircraft. And now the question: “Do we need aircraft carriers in such conditions?” More details on this subject in the article “Hypersound and the Navy”.
    1. +1
      April 21 2015 06: 32
      And now we will insert a small paragraph before the beginning of your text, like - submarines launch the missile defense complex at basing airfields and further in the text :-) AUG is as simple as taking a walk and going ashore?
      1. Fin
        +9
        April 21 2015 10: 18
        Quote: saag
        submarines launch the missile defense complex at basing airfields and hereinafter :-) AUG is as simple as taking a walk and going ashore?

        Well, of course we will sleep !! To prevent this from happening at sea, frigates, BODs, corvettes, submarines are constantly located, and an air defense system is brought into a permanent battlefield. The Kyrgyz Republic will not be able to get to Engels, Belaya, Soltsy, Shaikovka (they will be knocked down along the road), it is from there that the strategists and long-distance ones with a full knowledge base will rise to distribute gifts.
        In general, I agree with the retired captain of the first rank, Henry J. Hendricks
        modern anti-ship missiles of Russia and China in the event of a war will force the US carrier strike groups (AUG) to stay at a great distance from the coast. Removing hundreds or thousands of miles from the coast will seriously impede the combat work of aviation. In addition, U.S. AUGs can be tracked relatively easily using reconnaissance satellites.

        Develop a catapult (steal) and AV type Kuzi will be enough, but monsters are not needed.
    2. +3
      April 21 2015 09: 44
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      Americans are threatening to create hypersonic missiles (GZR) (including in the variant of anti-ship missiles with a launch range of 1000 km) by 2018-2020.

      We have nuclear missiles against the Americans. Aircraft carrier needed to participate in local conflicts against third countries
      1. -1
        April 21 2015 11: 18
        Quote: ism_ek
        We have nuclear missiles against the Americans. Aircraft carrier needed to participate in local conflicts against third countries

        Not only. AB is needed to ensure the safety of the SSBN at the time of adoption that same solutions, bringing it to the performers and testing the start-up cycle.
        Simply put, our AUG should not give the enemy the opportunity to take out our SSBNs at the stage of launch preparation. And, ideally, in general, to work fleet in being, by its very existence sobering hotheads dreaming of a preventive disarming strike on the naval component of the nuclear triad. For insufficient protection of the "triad" provokes the enemy to a disarming strike.
        1. +4
          April 21 2015 13: 23
          All our SSBNs have been and are under the reliable guardianship of the Americans.
          In general, SSBNs are a weapon of retaliation. Accurately, command posts cannot be destroyed with it, the accuracy is low. One SSBN is guaranteed to inflict unacceptable damage on America. The task of submariners in the event of a nuclear war is to survive and strike retaliation. The aircraft carrier is not an assistant here. Soviet strategists calculated that if there are 12 SSBNs in the ocean, one boat is guaranteed to survive and send the United States to the "Stone Age".
          1. +1
            April 21 2015 15: 07
            Quote: ism_ek
            The task of submariners in the event of a nuclear war is to survive and strike retaliation. The aircraft carrier is not an assistant here. Soviet strategists calculated that if there are 12 SSBNs in the ocean, one boat is guaranteed to survive and send the United States to the "Stone Age".

            Much has changed since the Soviet era. Now SSBNs do not need to walk in the Atlantic practically under the nose of the United States - the range of SLBMs is enough for firing from a pier or from the White Sea. Therefore, it became possible to create "bastions" under the protection of the surface fleet - safe patrol areas for SSBNs, in which their survival and retaliation are guaranteed.
            So the survival of the SSBN depends on the surface forces of the fleet, the task of which is to combat the enemy’s PLO forces.
            1. +1
              April 22 2015 12: 24
              The flying time, and the response time of the enemy missile defense! Bach for the first time ..)))! If from the pier, then under the cover of our land coast defense systems, of which there are much more than on an aircraft carrier, and under the protection of our aircraft from the ground ... )))) Bang bang, I killed you ...))! Sorry for the children's presentation style)! Control ... ready ..))? Survival of the SSBN and retaliation depends on the secrecy of this SSBN itself! And not on how he is being guarded, what kind of nonsense are you writing? The meaning of the word submarine ... a hidden boat is lost, and you were thought to protect the SSBN by surface ships ...
              1. 0
                April 22 2015 13: 43
                they blur this secrecy ahead of time and then the boats lead. The British Invincible class in the PLO variant carried only 4-5 harriers to push or shoot down the Tu-142 (which provided reconnaissance and warning for the PL), the rest - helicopters for the PLO.

                bang, and they killed you, and you didn’t even know anything about it.
          2. +1
            April 22 2015 12: 17
            Alexey doesn’t even want to know that combat duty and patrol areas of our SSBNs are state-military secrets, and no one except her narrow circle of people knows her, not even the boat commander is in this circle ... until she arrives in a certain area, and will not receive instructions ..)) !!
      2. -1
        April 21 2015 15: 33
        More precisely - the third world.
    3. -2
      April 21 2015 11: 19
      > And now the question: "Do we need aircraft carriers in such conditions?" More details on this topic in the article "Hypersound and the Navy".

      the USSR was developing projects of supersonic anti-ship missiles of strategic range of ground-based as far back as a missile of about 12 tons. All problems of shore protection can be solved without hypersound - there is only one problem, target designation.

      So, in addition to these anti-ship missile launchers, you need a ZGRLS set along the entire coast - all together obviously will turn out to be not cheap
      It would be interesting to consider that it would be cheaper in the long run - a set of aircraft carriers or an extensive coastal defense system using RCC
      1. +1
        April 21 2015 16: 39
        Quote: xtur
        need a set of ZGRLS

        I will reveal a military secret - ZGRLS CANNOT issue TsU
        1. 0
          April 21 2015 19: 34
          > I will reveal a military secret - ZGRLS CANNOT give out the control center


          will he spot a target on the surface of the water? determine that this is a ship?
          1. 0
            April 24 2015 14: 05
            zgrls only gives a mark on the fact of the launch of the rocket (+ approximately range and azimuth ...)
    4. +1
      April 21 2015 17: 19
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      Americans are threatening to create hypersonic missiles (GZR) (including in the variant of anti-ship missiles with a launch range of 1000 km) by 2018-2020. Our designers - by 2020.

      It is not difficult to threaten, but to do it ... Then - hypersonic anti-ship missiles - this is IMHO not the best option for missiles against ships. It is high-altitude by definition (hypersonic over water is excluded), it is not maneuverable (it will fall apart at such a speed), and its defeat is generally not something very complicated - almost more difficult than a ballistic target
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      We install GZR instead of Onyx on coastal missile systems. Carriers will be forced to move offshore by at least 1000 km

      In order to hammer on AUG you need to know where it is. Target designation who will give?
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      Aircraft carrier AWACS patrolling, as a rule, 200 km from AB

      "as a rule" still 300 km, and if necessary, a second patrol is set up at a distance of 600 km from AB
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      Consequently, the bombers will make the launches of SPG and go unnoticed to the shore.

      How many rockets do you need? A hundred? Where can I get fifty stratobommers to deliver your PPP?
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      And now the question: “Do we need aircraft carriers in such conditions?”

      Needed, clear pepper laughing
      1. +1
        April 22 2015 01: 28
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and its defeat in general is not something super complex - almost more difficult than a ballistic target

        1. More complicated, it has significant both azimuthal and radial speeds.
        against BR the problem of its approach to the target is almost vertical (for radar)
        Calculation of the flight path of a two-stage ballistic missile-launched, there is a calculation
        2.No one who has so far seriously intercepted BR ships
        On 4 on March 1961, an event took place that the vast majority of scientists and specialists sincerely considered absolutely impossible. On this day, the world's first experimental B-1000 rocket in the stratosphere destroyed a ballistic missile warhead approaching the target.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Target designation who will give?

        Even in the best years, the Legend spacecraft was not much relied on, therefore reconnaissance and strike air curtains of the PLNX671 and Pr705 PLA were used for reconnaissance and target designation
        Typical USA AUG:
        -Flagman aircraft carrier grouping with nuclear power plant t
        -Air defense division - 1-2 KR URO type "Ticonderoga"
        Division PLO Division - 3-4 EM URO of Arly Burke type
        -Division of multipurpose submarines - 1-2 submarine type "Los Angeles
        -Division of supply vessels - 1-2 vehicles of the Spley type, transports for ammunition, tankers, and other auxiliary ships
        -OAP Naval Forces - from 1 to 60 aircraft of the United States Navy aviation, reduced to strike AE, AE DRLO, AE PLO, AE VTS, etc.
        --------------
        All this puffs, makes noise, buzzes, flies, releases heat and feces //
        but how did the Germans (poor fellows) in the 2MV, without a DRLO, satellite group, Lourdos, Avax, and with poor radars, discover convoys of allies in the North Atlantic? And they didn’t aim at them, but the slow-moving submarines, battleships, destroyers and torpedo bomberss?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Where can I get fifty stratobommers to deliver your PPP?

        Americans are good ....
        The U.S. Air Force currently has about 75 B-52H bombers

        + in stock / cemetery pieces 150
        The US Air Force returned to service the previously decommissioned B-52H bomber (with its own name Ghost Rider (The Phantom Horseman)) was built in 1962 and withdrawn from service in 2008., Which stood at the “airplane cemetery” in Tucson for seven years state of arizona
        Each will "carry away" 18 pieces, like 18 JDAM (12 ext). AGM-28 and HSAB pylons
        1. +2
          April 22 2015 19: 08
          Quote: opus
          . more complicated, it has significant both azimuthal and radial velocities.

          What is essentially not very important - the rocket flies along a trajectory close to a straight line.
          Quote: opus
          No one has yet seriously intercepted BR ships

          Br is even more complicated - it’s still ballistic
          Both we and the Americans have mastered missiles capable of intercepting ballistic missiles, but neither we nor they have mastered hypersonic missiles. And what else come up with missiles while the hyper arrive
          Quote: opus
          Even in the best years, the Legend spacecraft was not much relied on, therefore reconnaissance and strike air curtains of the PLNX671 and Pr705 PLA were used for reconnaissance and target designation

          Clear. And where to get these same veils now, do not tell? Or will we again build hundreds of submarines?
          Quote: opus
          but how did the Germans (poor fellows) in WW2, without a DRLO, satellite group, Lourdos, Avax, and poor radars, discover convoys of allies in the North Atlantic? And it was not the SLR that directed them, but the slow-moving submarines, battleships, destroyers, and torpedo bombers slowly puffing?

          very often - with the help of Fokke-Fulf -200 Here is this handsome

          Well, if there wasn’t such a thing, they deployed with a wolf pack on the path of the possible following of the convoy and waited.
          This will work now - if you can put several dozen submarines into the sea. One of them will undoubtedly detect the enemy :))))
          Only hereafter everything will be bad. Because German submarines surfaced at night and taking advantage of the fact that their surface speed was much higher than 11 knots of transports, they caught up with the convoy and attacked it. But if you try to catch up with the AUG at 30 knots going to the strike area, then the LSA will be heard at the South Pole.
          Quote: opus
          Americans are good ....

          So the Americans have 10 AUGs, but I'm asking about us
          1. 0
            April 27 2015 23: 40
            These and other "handsome men" were just knocked down by fighters based on escort aircraft carriers. And before that, they were so morose that in half of the cases they attacked the convoys themselves.
            Besides direct work on submarines, fighter planes knocked down torpedo bombers.

            Flying boats did not accompany convoys in the Atlantic; they were engaged in free hunting for German submarines.

            Interestingly, not a single escort escorted by an airship (and the Americans had many) was not attacked by the Germans at all. feel
            Only one of the patrolmen (flying along the coast) was shot down, and that was because his commander showed cowboys - the blown-up airship fell on the boat and thereby ... captured it. laughing laughing laughing
  3. +4
    April 21 2015 06: 40
    We need to build drones. :) In the future, without human intervention.
    1. +3
      April 21 2015 10: 15
      I also think that we need to focus on droneless reconnaissance and electronic warfare + a large number of cruise missiles on board.
      1. +1
        April 21 2015 15: 34
        Exactly. And cheaper and more reliable.
    2. +3
      April 21 2015 10: 41
      We need to build drones. :) good good good

      Skynet steers !!!! Give a rebellion of machines. A commandless aircraft carrier for unmanned aircraft. Such a flying Dutchman on an atomic engine.
      1. +3
        April 21 2015 15: 35
        Quote: Alexey M
        Need to build drones

        It is true that the Russian Defense Ministry paused with orders for an aircraft carrier. What is needed here is a qualitative, unpredictable breakthrough for the enemy, and not stupid copying of American technical solutions.
  4. +1
    April 21 2015 06: 50
    Quote: saag
    And now we will insert a small paragraph before the beginning of your text, like - submarines launch the missile defense complex at basing airfields and further in the text :-) AUG is as simple as taking a walk and going ashore?
    Before destroying all aircraft carriers of the GZR and coastal missile systems of the GZR (DBK), it is necessary to destroy (suppress) the air defense of the theater of operations (on the coast and in the depths of the enemy’s land territory). And if PAK YES will be used for PLM (they will be created by this time), then it will be necessary to suppress the entire air defense of the country. And will all this be done by submarines?
    1. +1
      April 21 2015 06: 56
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      Before destroying all aircraft carriers of the GZR and coastal missile systems of the GZR (DBK), it is necessary to destroy (suppress) the air defense of the theater of operations (on the coast and in the depths of the enemy’s land territory). And will all this be done by submarines?

      On guidance from the air, any air defense and DBK have a radio-emitting device, it is enough to detect it, and so that it appears to fit some kind of vessel, which is not very pitiful, or even from space, according to the satellite of species or radar reconnaissance, but first strike at airfields , with this, the Second World War began
      1. +1
        April 21 2015 10: 30
        Quote: saag
        On guidance from the air, any air defense and DBK have a radio-emitting device, it is enough to detect it,

        Normal, echeloned air defense has and for a long time, protection from "fools" - the system switches the emitters, between the main and the backup, standing at a distance, the rocket flies exactly in the middle, everyone knows about this for a long time and they do not really hope for these CPA-basically they beat on the coordinates ZHPS, but our complexes are mobile, unlike the old C75 and C125, and at the beginning of hostilities they simply relocate to another position, everyone knows this too, and therefore they are very afraid of C300-c400
        1. +3
          April 21 2015 11: 22
          Quote: Locksmith
          but our complexes are mobile - unlike the old C75 and c125 and at the outbreak of hostilities they simply relocate to another position

          Ahem ... I will surprise you, but the S-125 is also a mobile complex.
          As I remember now: the standard for coagulation is 1,5 hours in peacetime. In wartime (with experimental calculations and an incentive in the form of an early arrival of PRR carriers), it can be reduced to 45 minutes.
          1. +3
            April 21 2015 17: 49
            C-125 and C-75 are mobile complexes. C-300, etc. - mobile.
            Difference in time. Deployment time S-300 5 minutes. Feel the difference.
            1. -1
              April 22 2015 10: 39
              Quote: alstr
              Difference in time. Deployment time S-300 5 minutes. Feel the difference.

              Is it for a self-propelled army or air defense on semitrailers?
              And 5 minutes to install 40В6М - it is somehow too optimistic.
              1. -1
                April 22 2015 12: 39
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Is it for a self-propelled army or air defense on semitrailers?

                For C-300PS, C-300PMU with missiles 5В55Р (В-500Р) and С-300ПМУ1 with missiles 48Н6Е


                S-300PT, S-300PT-1 with 5V55K (V-500K) missiles and S-300PT, S-300PT-1 with 5V55R (V-500R) missiles - 90 minutes



                Quote: Alexey RA
                And 5 minutes to install 40В6М - it is somehow too optimistic.


                What's the difference? SAM in TPK.
                Most time is taken not by leveling and raising the start position, but by cable connections and powering the radio equipment (reaching the nominal) mode. however, all this does the calculation in parallel



            2. -1
              April 22 2015 12: 31
              Quote: alstr
              C-125 and C-75 are mobile complexes. C-300, etc. - mobile.

              actually
              C-125 stationary

              Standard deployment time for air defense systems - 120 min, coagulation - 100 min
              C-75 the same

              I do not remember the standard time of deployment and collapse of the air defense systems, but more than 125
              Shooting can be conducted ONLY from prepared sites (allowable slope of the site to 2,5 °)

              1. 0
                April 29 2015 20: 55
                stationary it is S-25
      2. +10
        April 21 2015 10: 45
        Quote: saag
        but first the strike at the airfields, from this another WWII began

        Including primarily floating.
        In general, aircraft carriers are certainly good. And even necessary in wars of low intensity at sea theaters. But during the war with NATO ... How much can we really build aircraft carriers? 2-3, if we don’t bother? In any case, the United States will have a dozen minimum. The newest, because they hurt a huge. As soon as our AUG goes into the ocean, the Amer AUG will immediately spin around it. The minimum is not weaker than ours. And what will our aircraft carrier do in case of war? Cover patrol zones of our nuclear submarines, as many write? No, it will be stupid butting with an American aircraft carrier. But the rest of the American aircraft carriers will be engaged in tasks along our shore, nuclear submarines, etc. The Americans won the war at sea against the Japanese because they were able to build many more ships, including aircraft carriers, than the Japanese. And let's not forget that aircraft carriers showed their significance only in the Pacific theater of war, where there was a struggle for the islands. In the European theater, their role was negligible. If only when posting convoys, but there is another aircraft carrier needed.
        No one denies that work on the aircraft carrier must continue. From a design point of view. Develop a catapult, necessarily electromagnetic, because the north, other systems. But so far in theory. And saturate the fleet primarily frigates, destroyers, submarines and nuclear submarines. The fact that we already know how to build and can.
        If you build an aircraft carrier, then most likely an escort first. Not the largest sizes.
        1. -2
          April 21 2015 11: 28
          Quote: man in the street
          And what will our aircraft carrier do in case of war? Cover patrol zones of our nuclear submarines, as many write? No, it will be stupid butting with an American aircraft carrier. But the rest of the American aircraft carriers will be engaged in tasks along our shore, nuclear submarines, etc.

          Our AV will "butt" with the American only if they climb to the positional areas of SSBNs. Because a war with the United States at any moment can turn into a nuclear one. And for it, it is necessary to preserve ICBM carriers so that there is something to answer.

          By the way, the very attempt of the US forces to break through to the positional areas is already an application for preparation for launch. Because this can and should be regarded as a "disarming blow".
          1. +3
            April 21 2015 12: 03
            Quote: Alexey RA
            By the way, the attempt to break through US forces to position areas is already an application for preparation for launch.

            And where are these "positional areas" located? (Sorry, not special) If in our territorial waters, then I agree, although then they should be within the range of ground aviation. If in neutral, then someone will forbid him to go there.
            1. 0
              April 21 2015 12: 43
              Quote: man in the street
              And where are these "positional areas" located? (Sorry, not special) If in our territorial waters, then I agree, although then they should be within the range of ground aviation.

              Unfortunately, there are not so many airfields in the White and Okhotsk Sea areas and they are located far from each other.
              In addition, the basic air force alone cannot solve the problem. The main enemy of the SSBNs will be "moose" and "Virginias", which will have to be hunted by the PLO-group of the Northern Fleet. And these PLO-groups will already be hunted by the AUG air groups, thus clearing the way for the PLA. And the fleet is faced with the task of how to cover its ships so that at the right time it does not end up without an "umbrella". Everyone remembers the sad story of Operation Verpus.
              Quote: man in the street
              If neutral, then someone will forbid him to go there.

              Ahem ... actually, wartime is being considered. smile
              1. +2
                April 21 2015 21: 04
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Ahem ... actually, wartime is being considered.

                This is what we need to start, if it comes to this, that is, whether aircraft carriers do not we have it does not really matter! the rates will be completely different, the count will go for minutes (this is the time for making a decision) and then nothing can be done about one hundredth of what will take off is enough to send the planet to the earth in the ice age .. After all, the fleet, aviation and the Strategic Missile Forces, and even ground-based forces of something will add something, something yes drills .. Although if we stupidly blow up a tenth of what is at home, then the Arctic fox will still come, to us immediately and to "partners 2 a little later and during this a little bit they give us more than once and not two will envy .. Once again, I will remind you that it will be WAR TIME! but for everything else, Avik we didn’t get stuck anywhere! We don’t need to carry democracy to other countries and continents at home. to put on track radios, it will be a very useful achievement and a fiercely loved one among the troops ..
                1. -1
                  April 22 2015 10: 47
                  Quote: max702
                  This is what we need to start, if it comes to that, that is, aircraft carriers, doesn’t it matter much for us! the rates will be completely different. The score will go for minutes (this is the time for making a decision) and then there’s nothing to be done with one hundredth of what will take off enough to send planet earth in the ice age ..

                  Do you assume that there will be no non-nuclear period - and the strategic nuclear forces will immediately hit us? I doubt it ...

                  First, there will be a period of escalation - a non-nuclear war in the style of the big "Desert Storm". And at this stage, the enemy will try by all means to reduce the number of our carriers of SBS. Even if we decide to immediately respond to the Strategic Missile Forces, it will take time - about 30 minutes. During this time, our fleet is obliged to ensure the safety of the SSBN at any cost. And for this, it is necessary to ensure the combat stability of the PLUG.
                  Quote: max702
                  But if you manage to put a normal boot with equipment on the saved money and a walkie-talkie, then this will be an achievement that is very useful and beloved in the troops ..

                  So this is what we need to start, if it comes to that, that is, makhra has normal boots with equipment and walkie-talkies, doesn’t it matter to us! smile
                  1. 0
                    April 22 2015 12: 44
                    Yes, I’ll repeat it again ... do you really think that all our SSBNs will be under the cap of the enemy’s nuclear submarines at the time of the attack ...))? This is the first, second, it is stipulated that the Russian Federation reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in a response to the use of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction against her and (or) her allies, as well as in response to large-scale aggression using conventional weapons when the very existence of the Russian state is threatened. This is the military doctrine of the Russian Federation, baby, what a big storm in What are you talking about in the wilderness? Army General, forgive me, of course, but you got crazy with your woodenness! Surface ships are guarded by submarines, what are you carrying, really pissed off a bit!
                    1. -1
                      April 22 2015 14: 03
                      Why not? Those that are not under the polar cap can somehow prevent this? Shoot down American, English, and other anti-submarine aircraft for example? bully
              2. 0
                April 22 2015 12: 33
                wassat Such a pun, harry, share?
              3. 0
                April 24 2015 14: 17
                the military will be too late ...
  5. +9
    April 21 2015 06: 53
    These disputes will be long and painful. But it seems undeniable that the construction of an aircraft carrier requires a slipway and a dock (s) which we currently do not have. All Soviet aircraft carriers were built in Nikolaev - USSR. And the creation of such a dock (docks) will allow you to build not only aircraft carriers but also other ships of large and over large tonnage. Shipbuilding in general is the industry locomotive. Its development draws all sectors of the country. Not for nothing ALL the developed industries of the world are leaders in the field of shipbuilding.
    1. -2
      April 21 2015 07: 21
      Russia is not an industrialized country! Only raw and it will be very long! so there will be no money
    2. +1
      April 21 2015 11: 37
      ..... for the construction of an aircraft carrier a slipway and dock (s) are required, which we currently do not have ....

      1 ...... The largest dry dock in the Union was in Kerch (250m) .... In my opinion, even in Europe .... At the moment, Kerch is already Russia ...
      2 ..... All large ships are built in sections, which are then docked afloat .... An example is the Mistral, when our stern was made separately, and the French were making the bow ..

      .... Not so bad .... hi
    3. +1
      April 21 2015 11: 54
      I agree! The argument that an aircraft carrier or a submarine is better can be endless. And I confirm that we are able to build submarines, and let's learn how to make an aircraft carrier, just for the sake of owning technology and production, no one offers to rivet them in packs to tear, and at the same time get out of the submarines.
      1. 0
        April 25 2015 12: 21
        the series is always cheaper than individual.unique ships. why our fleet (not the richest) "white elephants" ...
        1. 0
          April 26 2015 18: 35
          Build a series of aircraft carriers, what problems? What is there compared to the submarine complex (no kidding)?
  6. +3
    April 21 2015 07: 04
    To ensure the take-off of such equipment, an aircraft carrier must carry launch catapults. However, our navy does not have such equipment and, moreover, has never had it. The consequence of this - in the context of AWACS aircraft - was the lack of such equipment on the already mentioned Admiral Kuznetsov.
    It is difficult to agree with this, since this is far from the case.
    The presence of catapult reconnaissance aircraft on board would increase the combat effectiveness of ships. The first Not 55 entered the USSR at the beginning of the 1930 of the year and in our aviation it received the designation KR-1 (Shipborne reconnaissance-1). The K-3 catapult, built by Heinkel, was first installed on the battleship Paris Commune, and in 1935 it was transferred to the Krasny Kavkaz cruiser.
    The experience gained during the operation of the KR-1 was used by designers in the USSR to create more advanced examples of catapults and shipborne ejection launch vehicles KOR-1 (Be-2) and KOR-2 (Be-4).
    When in the 70 years they started talking about building aircraft carriers, a catapult (officially called the booster device) was made for working out the aerofinisher by installing it in 1986 at the Nitka ground training ground (free name 23 NIUTK, and which then took root). The booster device (as well as the aerofinisher) was designed and manufactured by the Proletarsky Zavod. On 7 of August 1986, the first idle launches of the catapult were carried out, 29 of August - with a trolley. During the tests, all systems were worked out, calibration by weight and speed was carried out, all the required characteristics meeting the technical specifications were achieved. The aerofinisher and the emergency barrier were presented for interdepartmental tests, which were completed in 1988, then were sent to TAKR Tbilisi. At “Tbilisi” they refused to install, and the catapult switched to the Ulyanovsk ATAKR.

    1. +1
      April 21 2015 10: 35
      The question of catapults remains open.


      By the way, they showed the FAK T-50, so one of the engineers claimed that he saw it take off with a range of 100 (One hundred) meters, due to engine power and vector traction. If this is true, then on the horizon may appear a full-fledged deck aircraft, with great thrust, not requiring a catapult. Kholya it is clear that AWACS aircraft can not do without them.
      1. +3
        April 21 2015 11: 47
        .... Hola understand that AWACS aircraft can’t do without them ....

        .... Well, if you decide to use the A-50 AWACS as an aircraft, then of course not .... laughing ..... Aircraft carrier AWACS is a purely small-scale production (how many are there on an aircraft carrier ??? .... 2-4 pieces ???) ... Given that modern electronics are rapidly losing weight, then as an option to use As our version of the AWACS aircraft, we can use the modernized AN-28 civilian aircraft .... Fairly strong and with great thrust-weight ratio (this is a short take-off and landing airplane) .... Cheap and cheerful .... hi
      2. 0
        April 21 2015 12: 35
        Only one question, how much will it raise fuel and weapons?
        1. 0
          April 21 2015 13: 41
          .... Only one question, how much will it raise fuel and weapons? ....

          ...... This is not a bomb carrier, you don't need much .... It is necessary to carry the radar station and the corresponding equipment in its belly on the "hump" ..... He has fuel somewhere for 4 hours and raises about 1,5 tons ... A MODIFICATION on the basis of this device is offered .... You can look at the performance characteristics in the net .... (the length of the takeoff run in calm conditions is about 250m, very fast acceleration to a take-off speed of about 130km / h, etc.)
          1. 0
            April 21 2015 14: 08
            Such, the less fuel and weapons, the lower the efficiency. If our Aircraft carriers need to keep a fleet of tankers next to the Aircraft Carrier, then it will be a feil
            1. 0
              April 22 2015 01: 29
              Quote: BlackMokona
              Such, the less fuel and weapons, the lower the efficiency. If our Aircraft carriers need to keep a fleet of tankers next to the Aircraft Carrier, then it will be a feil

              Taki, take an interest in how many tankers and cargo ships in AUG users ...
              What to do if airplanes consume tons of kerosene ..., as well as ammunition.
              1. 0
                April 22 2015 20: 20
                Those without a catapult, and with a 100 meter runway, you will need many times more supply ships.
                1. 0
                  April 22 2015 20: 23
                  In honor of what?
      3. 0
        April 21 2015 12: 48
        > If this is true, then a full-fledged carrier-based aircraft may appear on the horizon, with a high thrust-to-weight ratio that does not require a catapult.

        But was the aircraft fully armed during takeoff with the 100th take-off?
      4. 0
        April 21 2015 14: 59
        "saw it take off with a range of 100 (one hundred) meters, due to the power of the engines and vector thrust ////

        It is without bombing.
        You can take off from the springboard with about half
        bomb loading.
        From the catapult - with the full.
      5. +1
        April 21 2015 16: 41
        Quote: user
        if this is indeed the case, then a full-fledged deck aircraft may appear on the horizon, with great thrust, not requiring a catapult

        Cotopult is still needed - whatever the thrust-weight ratio, with a full supply of fuel and ammunition from 100 meters, it will be problematic to get it.
        Aircraft AWACS will not be able to do this in principle
  7. +2
    April 21 2015 07: 19
    "capable of carrying about a hundred aircraft of various classes and types." Any crazy ideas are good for cutting money!
  8. +10
    April 21 2015 07: 42
    . "Any crazy ideas are good for cutting money!

    I completely agree. Are we going to conquer Africa, Indochina, a continent of not scared fighting kangaroos?
    Why do we need an aircraft carrier? To ruin a country? As Donbass showed, mobile infantry is more important for a country with a defensive doctrine. Drones? Why not? Landing hovercraft capable of protecting themselves from missiles is also a useful thing in the household.
    Although, I am a layman in the military business. As a taxpayer and a citizen, I am against such expenses as an aircraft carrier. It is also necessary to serve it. His lifespan? We would have a bridge to the Crimea to build or increase the fleet of ferries is already a victory. hi
  9. +1
    April 21 2015 07: 46
    ... she alone destroyed almost the entire air defense system of Libya.

    For example, I’m not in the know. And what was her air defense system? Also, judging by the result, anti-submarine defense was also not in the best condition.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  10. +5
    April 21 2015 07: 57
    in order to build aircraft carriers, it is necessary to build a sufficient number of ships of cover and support. We do not have the destroyer "Leader" yet, by the year 18, Russia will have only 2 TARKs capable of joining the AUG; our ARKs are rapidly becoming obsolete, and new ones are not We are slowly starting to build MPSS and nuclear submarines, but so far the pace of construction (1 MPSL PER YEAR-TWO) is not very impressive.
    Moreover, we don’t even have shipyards for the construction of such a colossus.
    And with all this, there is some talk about the Russian aircraft carrier. We need to lean on the construction of MAPL, nuclear submarines, destroyers, ARKs, and TARKs. Develop new long-range ASL complexes with 1000km range and hyper sound, improve coastal systems.
    Today, Russia is not ready to build aircraft carriers, and the Russian fleet is not ready to accept its aircraft carrier.
    Do we need an aircraft carrier now? I think not. Given all the above, as well as remembering our defense doctrine.
  11. +1
    April 21 2015 08: 34
    Having launched 90 missiles, she single-handedly destroyed almost the entire Libyan air defense system.
    10 missiles per target?)) Gaddafi moved late when he arrived in Moscow, negotiations were underway on the supply of air defense systems, but as they say, it was too late to drink Borjomi
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. +8
    April 21 2015 08: 55
    Aircraft Carriers are a Pure American Toy (for bombing and intervention at other ends of the world). Even the only French Aircraft Carrier Eats (Money and Funds for maintenance) so much that it is better-cheaper to Write off (or sawed) than to Operate (Americans print their Money in Wagons, therefore they have fun in this way (building these Floating Platforms-Airfields for takeoffs their Aviation)). We (in the USSR) had another Naval Concept - this is the construction of Multi-functional (for both Defense and Attack) Heavy Nuclear Missile Cruisers (TARKs) KILLER of US aircraft carriers of the "Moscow" or "Kalinin" type (project "ORLAN") - which do not need Bulky Combat Security from the Squadron of auxiliary ships and nuclear submarines (as for the same American Aircraft Carriers or Mistrals). Slow Aircraft Carrier (American or not: it doesn't matter) One - Doesn't Float (otherwise it's just Big-Good Mishin) And Our Cruisers are capable of performing Any Mission (anywhere in the World Ocean) and in Solo Voyage (Autonomous) and as part of a Group of Ships ( Squadron). Fussing in the Russian Navy with Aircraft Carriers (Needed - Not Needed) is akin to Fussing with confrontation (in the early 80s) with the American SDI system (which in fact turned out to be a Dummy - for wiring the USSR for Money)
  16. 0
    April 21 2015 08: 56
    Quote: fomkin
    A. Khazbiev suggests that the construction of a new aircraft carrier could cost $ 10-12 billion


    I heard about our compatriots who have more significant amounts, including for the construction of slipways.
    1. 0
      April 21 2015 09: 49
      Are you talking about Khoroshavin?
      1. iv_v
        +2
        April 21 2015 11: 59
        As far as I understand, we are talking about tax residents of the UK, Switzerland, Finland and Israel. But this is not a bit about aircraft carriers; they are more about yachts. With what joy Mr. Fomkin considers them compatriots, it is not clear. They are unlikely to consider Mr. Fomkin a compatriot.
  17. +3
    April 21 2015 09: 05
    One hundred millionth discussion about "necessary-unnecessary". At the moment, we have a crooked, unbalanced and aging fleet. It seems to me that we need to develop from the bottom up: corvettes-frigates-submarine-destroyers, etc. Until we update the fleet, there is no point in aircraft carriers. As for the aircraft carriers, we'll talk in about 30 years.
    1. 0
      April 21 2015 09: 46
      Quote: KGB WATCH YOU
      About aircraft carriers, after 30 years we’ll talk.

      By then, they will already be needed as coastal defense battleships. laughing I understand that many here would like to have a carrier fleet, but I don’t want to keep it laughing
      1. +1
        April 21 2015 09: 52
        Perhaps, but in my opinion (the level of the couch analyst of the fleet), Russian aircraft carriers are not needed soldier There are other areas in the fleet where funds can be poured.
        1. 0
          April 29 2015 21: 39
          And so it is at the expense of the level, because to say that the Navy does not need aircraft carriers is the same as to say that the Army does not need airfields.
  18. +5
    April 21 2015 09: 13
    But why does Russia need a hefty, expensive and stupid fool? Does anyone want to make an epic fighting game like Nimitz vs Yamamoto? So the Americans already have their hands full and the aircraft carriers are larger and the industry is incomparably more powerful. Yes, and Russia is all without need. (Sofa analytics).
  19. -1
    April 21 2015 09: 15
    Quote: F. Vastag
    Carriers are a Pure American Toy

    Therefore, China and India have aircraft carrier building programs. Therefore, England has 2 !!! there will be an aircraft carrier. And we will again wait for the new Peter, so that he again made Russia a sea power? And you are wrong about the Union: Marshal Ustinov dreamed of having a powerful nuclear fleet. The cruisers of the Eagles were his favorites, and they were to become escorts to nuclear aircraft carriers and the first-born was to be nuclear Ulyanovsk. Something you about it, like all critics of the aircraft carriers forget. So that your promises to the doctrine of the Union are untenable. To be a Russian aircraft carrier (fat point)
    1. +1
      April 21 2015 09: 49
      Quote: Engineer
      Therefore, England has 2 !!! there will be an aircraft carrier.

      They have light aircraft carriers, without catapults
      1. +1
        April 21 2015 16: 42
        Quote: ism_ek
        They have light aircraft carriers, without catapults

        Wow - light, 70 thousand tons ...
    2. +1
      April 21 2015 09: 56
      Do you seriously consider the economic opportunities of India, China and Russia to be comparable ?! Then you cannot be allowed to form a defense budget for a cannon shot!
  20. 3vs
    +4
    April 21 2015 09: 31
    We would have to deal with the spaceport yet!
    1. 0
      April 21 2015 11: 02
      Everything is in order with the cosmodrome - funds have been allocated, there are personnel and technologies to complete the construction. The problem is purely organizational - theft, due to which the deadline for putting the object is postponed.
      Russia has much more complex and yet insoluble problems.
      First of all, this concerns the T-50, which for technical reasons still does not become a full fifth generation.
      I'm not talking about PAK YES. Just think about it - after the collapse of the USSR, Russia still has not put on stream the release of strategic bombers. No technology, no personnel - why not! So far, the Moscow Region has not decided whether to launch production of the still Soviet Tu-160, or to concentrate on developing the PAK DA.
      1. 0
        April 28 2015 21: 40
        Why Tu-160?
        If even the "Bears" can handle the assigned tasks.
        1. 0
          April 28 2015 22: 59
          in peacetime ... even then they fly in pairs, because every time you can’t count on a mutual collision.
  21. +3
    April 21 2015 09: 44
    Apparently, all the same, the question of the return of Alaska is on the agenda, otherwise there is no other way to explain the emergence of this devastatingly expensive, and therefore delusional project.
  22. +4
    April 21 2015 10: 08
    S. Ishchenko also notes personnel problems in research and design organizations.
    And you try to be smart with a salary of 25 grouse. It is much easier to master the art of sales for this money than higher mathematics.
    Concerning whether an aircraft carrier is needed? - I will say this: on the pages of this site this topic has already been beaten, sucked up and came to some conclusions that the aircraft carrier and the AUG (in general) are kings where there is no ground aviation (i.e. at least 1000 km from the coast).
    And there are 2 such theaters of naval operations in Russia - the Arctic and Pacific Oceans, well, maybe, to some extent, the Mediterranean Sea, although the presence of an aircraft carrier in the latter makes sense only if there is a BASE.
    Thus, we get the minimum number of aircraft carrier formations in Russia - 2 pcs. While there is only one.
    As Comrade A. NEXUS - the creation of a second aircraft carrier formation before 18 - 20 simply does not work out, and something needs to be done with filling it (an aircraft carrier, of course, is the main ship, but it also needs to be protected and protected and refueled). So in the near future it seems logical to modernize the Kuzi, lay down one more aircraft carrier, commission another aircraft carrier, as well as a number of escort ships (such as the ARC, destroyers supporting the group's air defense, corvettes, frigates and support transports). The boats, I think, will not forget the same.
    I would also like to say that the variant with the Mistralks could serve as an Erats-aircraft carrier, but it did not fuse.
  23. +3
    April 21 2015 10: 24
    Why didn’t we let our only aircraft carrier on metal? He pulls the strap, eats money, does not fight with anyone. Why is the need to cover the fleet from the air so ignored? Intelligence aircraft than we will find and shoot down? Will submarines also be grazed only on our shores? Until drones learn to take off from any ship, the aircraft carrier will provide the fleet with the initiative.
    1. +4
      April 21 2015 12: 17
      Quote: Sergeant Pank
      Why didn’t we let our only aircraft carrier on metal?

      they would have let him in ... in the 90 6 aircraft-carrying cruisers stupidly sold over the hill with all the documentation, and the first and only REAL 100% CARRIER ULYANOVSK with a wing in 70 cars, when ready for 85% at the shipyards, they started up needles. So they left the last finished ship, the newest at that time, and on that, as they say ...
  24. DPN
    0
    April 21 2015 10: 25
    Quote: fomkin
    Quote: fomkin
    A. Khazbiev suggests that the construction of a new aircraft carrier could cost $ 10-12 billion


    I heard about our compatriots who have more significant amounts, including for the construction of slipways.

    You can’t touch them, it’s not for these purposes that they destroyed the USSR.
  25. 0
    April 21 2015 10: 26
    About the aircraft carrier with a displacement of 100 tons, it makes no sense to speak. Ships with close displacement Russia never built. Peter the Great has a displacement of 000 tons ....
    It makes sense to pay attention to the French experience. Charles Degol has a displacement of 42 tons, an atomic reactor, steam catopults.

    We need to take the draft nuclear icebreaker. Make a flat deck, hangars, steal drawings of a steam catapult from the Americans and here you have an aircraft carrier.

    The truth should not be forgotten, that with the icebreakers in trouble. The resource of the Soviet icebreakers is running out. The first purely Russian nuclear icebreaker is only 50% built.
    1. +2
      April 21 2015 10: 34
      By the way, yes. Why not make a small aircraft carrier to test technology? The same Kuznetsov has about 50 tons of displacement. You can build them and more, here we have a series.
      1. +2
        April 21 2015 11: 39
        Quote: Sergeant Pank
        By the way, yes. Why not make a small aircraft carrier to test technology? The same Kuznetsov has about 50 tons of displacement. You can build them and more, here we have a series.

        With small ABs, one problem is that they become outdated much faster than large ones. A large AB always has a stock of volumes and displacement for re-equipment with new equipment. A small AB either simply does not accommodate new cars, or carries them in a clearly insufficient amount.
        Compare Essex and Midway. They were built at the same time - during the Second World War. But the "Midway" served until the 90s (and in the "active" composition of the fleet - the "Midway" itself had a goodbye fight in "Desert Storm"), and the "Essexes" left the scene en masse in the late 60s - early 70s -x.

        Midway (upper left), Ranger (lower left), Theodore Roosevelt (upper right) and America (lower right).
    2. +2
      April 21 2015 11: 51
      .... Ships with close displacement Russia never built. ...

      .....Yah!!!!.... belay ..... Back in the 60s, the Kerch plant "Zaliv" completely made the supertanker "Crimea" (150 thousand tons) .... hi
    3. 0
      April 21 2015 12: 21
      Quote: ism_ek
      Ships with a close displacement, Russia never built.

      aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk -75000 tons. hi
      1. UVB
        +2
        April 21 2015 13: 48
        Quote: NEXUS
        Quote: ism_ek
        Ships with a close displacement, Russia never built.

        aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk -75000 tons. hi
        Supertanker "Crimea" - 180000 tons, although to be precise, it really is not in Russia but in the USSR, more specifically, the Ukrainian SSR (Nikolaev, Kerch). Although the Ukrainian SSR and the current UKRAINE are two big differences!
        1. 0
          April 21 2015 16: 39
          Quote: UVB
          Supertanker "Crimea" - 180000 tons, although to be precise, it really is not in Russia but in the USSR, more specifically, the Ukrainian SSR (Nikolaev, Kerch). Although the Ukrainian SSR and the current UKRAINE are two big differences!

          build a tanker and a warship, you see, a little different things. It's about a combat vehicle, not a floating tank. Therefore, I gave an example of the first aircraft carrier of the USSR Ulyanovsk, and not an icebreaker or a tankerhi
    4. 0
      April 21 2015 14: 08
      Yamal was built in 1993 and is now in service.
      "50 Years of Victory" was built in 2007 and is now in service.
      An icebreaker of class LK-60YA is now being completed at the Baltic Shipyard and will soon be commissioned. 2 more icebreakers of this class were ordered by Rosatom and will be delivered by 2020.
    5. 0
      April 21 2015 14: 45
      Quote: ism_ek
      steal steam catapult blueprints from Americans

      What for? There are also Soviet developments in this direction. There is nothing particularly complicated in it. This miracle was not installed on Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers (including the Kuzya) only because it weighs like a cast-iron bridge and occupies immeasurable space. And we, in addition to the air wing, also had to deploy missiles, and the displacement was not 100 kilotons ("Kuzya" is the largest 60 kilotons, the rest is even less). And then this little town .... Fuck her.
      1. 0
        April 21 2015 14: 53
        A catapult needs a nuclear reactor. Monstrous energy is needed to disperse a twenty-ton aircraft
        Quote: perfect100
        Yamal was built in 1993 and is now in service.
        "50 Years of Victory" was built in 2007 and is now in service.
        All of them were laid during the USSR
      2. +1
        April 21 2015 16: 55
        Quote: tchoni
        ("Kuzya" is the largest 60 kilotons, the rest is even less).

        "Kuzma" was not the biggest ... Ulyanovsk (75000 tons) was supposed to go after it. And it was almost ready. recourse
  26. 0
    April 21 2015 10: 29
    With a possible future he grew up. while the aircraft carrier is boiling in the minds of the military, USC and naval amateurs. Money is not being spent. feel
    Here the "hung" Franco-issue with the "mistrals" is more relevant. If the Franco-cowardly rabbit gives them (both). And what will be their operating experience. As long as our naval commanders disown incense from them like hell and would be happy to return the money with interest. Will not the new aircraft carrier be the same ???
  27. +1
    April 21 2015 10: 36
    It seems to me that Russian aircraft carriers are not needed. At least for now. There are more important areas that require finance. For example, the purchase of the T-50 was cut. It is better to buy aircraft with this "money from an aircraft carrier". There are blacksmiths - and good. Upgrade it and let it serve.
    1. 0
      April 21 2015 10: 49
      Quote: Dimka off
      Kuznetsov is - and good. Upgrade it and let it be of service.

      Question about replacing Kuznetsov. He is already 25 years old ... How many times can it be upgraded.
      Soviet cruisers sail another ten years ... What will remain with us? There are no new large ships even in projects (excluding Mistral). Will we sail to distant countries on frigates?
      The question now is what will replace the Soviet ocean fleet. While there is no replacement for him.
  28. +3
    April 21 2015 10: 54
    if from empty to empty then ...
    1. -1
      April 21 2015 22: 49
      ... then "it" pops up again and will be in sight.

      all comments about the dangers of aircraft carriers and about how Germany won (!) the battle for the Atlantic alone should be sent to the Pentagon’s website - maybe then there would be some benefit from this swaying bulk of commentators bully
  29. 0
    April 21 2015 11: 03
    Yes, at least 2 carriers and several helicopter carriers we need. Well, most of all, a new generation of nuclear-powered icebreaker-class missile cruisers, it is necessary to cover the Arctic.
    1. 0
      April 21 2015 13: 31
      Quote: Iskander 090
      Well, most of all, a new generation of nuclear-powered icebreaker-class missile cruisers, it is necessary to cover the Arctic.

      From whom? From submarines, or from airplanes?
      Against both, it is ineffective, and surface ships capable of navigating the Arctic have no probable enemy and will not.
      1. 0
        April 26 2015 18: 11
        from everything ... in the Arctic, a German was still walking in 1943.
  30. 0
    April 21 2015 11: 08
    it's time to build an underwater aircraft carrier.
  31. +1
    April 21 2015 11: 31
    the construction of a new aircraft carrier can cost 10-12 billion US dollars and will last at least 10 years.


    to this amount should also be added the costs of maintenance, repairs, the creation of the ASU without which this vessel is very vulnerable, this translates into billions of billions more. only States that print bucks for the whole world can allow such a squander, and our budget will really undermine it, which is already burdened by the impact of sanctions, social programs and other expenses. so there’s only one conclusion: to build submarines, what we are doing well and what fits well with the structure of the country's current fleet.
  32. iv_v
    +9
    April 21 2015 11: 32
    Cool discussion.
    Judging by the article:
    1. There are no docks
    2. There are no personnel
    3. No technology
    4. No aircraft
    5. No escort
    6. There is no military doctrine

    There is a desire to do something. Reminds of the article "Sea Wars. Attack of the Clowns" on this resource.
    1. +1
      April 21 2015 12: 07
      Thanks to this event, scientists and engineers can demonstrate their new development at international exhibitions of weapons and equipment for the naval forces.
      In general, everything is at the level of children's drawings. Something reminiscent of Comrade Bender's thoughts about New Vasyuki.
  33. +2
    April 21 2015 11: 37
    Why is an aircraft carrier not needed? I need it. At least as a process, revitalization, long withered surface naval activities. Yes, and as a technical miracle, he also does not hurt.
    Here, they made the Energia rocket in the old days. Well, no luck, the country has moderated its scale, which simply did not provide a place for such a missile. It did not fit in the head of narrow-eyed people. But now something came in handy. And money? You will not attach them to a specific case, you yourself know what will happen to them.
    1. +1
      April 21 2015 19: 34
      Quote: loaln
      Why is an aircraft carrier not needed? I need it. At least as a process, revitalization, long withered surface naval activities. Yes, and as a technical miracle, he also does not hurt.

      But isn’t that this miracle of 12 Baku’s lard costs by itself? Moreover, building a shipyard for it is also not a cheap pleasure. So, as a process, you can build a couple of TARKs with this money, and destroyers (which are the backbone of the ocean fleet) and more than that. hi
  34. +2
    April 21 2015 11: 43
    Every time I see an aircraft carrier from such a perspective as in the photo for the article, there is a feeling that it can easily tip over ;-) I am not special in ships, but the question arises - why not try a catamaran scheme?
    1. +2
      April 21 2015 13: 48
      Quote: Spitfire
      the question arises - why not try a catamaran scheme?
      An interesting question, as they say. The catamaran, with oncoming and lateral waves, is already experiencing significant side rolling, while a single-hull vessel maintains a mode of moderate overload. This is due to the excessive lateral stability of wide catamarans and trimaran. An aircraft carrier must take off and land its aircraft, and this disadvantage of catamarans is sensitive for it. There are, one must understand, other problems, although there were projects for small aircraft-carrying catamarans for our fleet. As for your "Every time I see an aircraft carrier from such a perspective as in the photo for the article, there is a feeling that it can easily tip over", there is such a concept in shipbuilding as metacentric vessel height, if everything is fine with her, the ship behaves according to the "Vanka-vstanka" principle, if not, then the "overkill" is very likely. The sailing capacity of the vessel (for example, due to the high side) is as negative a factor as the construction or operational overload.
  35. +1
    April 21 2015 12: 37
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Alexey M
    And we "need" an aircraft carrier as a spare wheel for a car, what if a wheel gets punctured. It is problematic to operate an aircraft carrier in the Northern Fleet,
    It is only a pity that the Americans and the British do not know about this.


    You just look at the map. The Britons control the entire North Atlantic and the Arctic Ocean from Canada to Murmansk. The Americans control the entire Atlantic and the entire Pacific Ocean. They can afford it, because nobody controls them permanently there. And questions arise - WHERE will we build an aircraft carrier, and WHERE will we operate, maintain, supply, repair? Ah, because he also needs a security order winked
    1. -1
      April 21 2015 12: 46
      Quote: kirpich
      And questions arise - WHERE will we build an aircraft carrier, and WHERE will we operate, maintain, supply, repair?

      Severodvinsk and Severomorsk. There are no other options.
      And his task will be to hold an "umbrella" over the PLOW at the entrance to the White Sea
      1. 0
        April 21 2015 15: 25
        Severomorsk, Severodvinsk have docks capable of assembling a disparate unit? Can it be possible to deliver supplies, spare parts, ammunition, consumables there on time? Yes, even where to place 2,5 (TWO AND HALF) thousands of sailors who returned from the campaign?
        1. -1
          April 21 2015 17: 57
          Quote: kirpich
          Severomorsk, Severodvinsk have docks capable of collecting disparate into one?

          Severodvinsk quietly modernized the Gorshka. The largest shipbuilding and ship repair center in the North: Sevmash + Zvezdochka.
          Kuzya is based in Severomorsk (more precisely, at 35 Shipyard) (yes, our only TAVKR is based at a shipyard smile ) Plus, there is a floating dock near Roslyakovo (330x67 m, g / p 80 thousand tons).
          Quote: kirpich
          Maybe there is an opportunity to deliver supplies, spare parts, ammunition, supplies there on time?

          Ahem ... actually, the settlements I mentioned are the main base of the Northern Fleet and the main shipbuilding center in the North.
          Quote: kirpich
          Yes, even where to place 2,5 (TWO AND HALF) thousands of sailors who returned from the campaign?

          And where were the crews of the "Kiev" and "Baku"? Or have you forgotten that there were 2 TAVKRs on the Northern Fleet (and then "Kuzya" also came).
          1. 0
            April 21 2015 18: 42
            floating dock for 80tyrs, and they are going to build an aircraft carrier for 100t.r. Where will we place the crews? I'm already silent about the wives of officers wink
            1. -1
              April 22 2015 11: 56
              Quote: kirpich
              floating dock for 80tyrs, and they are going to build an aircraft carrier for 100t.r.

              Sevmash and Zvezdochka remain.
              Quote: kirpich
              Where will we place the crews? I'm already silent about the wives of officers

              Once again: under the USSR, 3 TAVKRs with crews of 1500-2000 people were based on the same Northern Fleet.
  36. +1
    April 21 2015 12: 42
    Quote: loaln
    Why is an aircraft carrier not needed? I need it. At least as a process, revitalization, long withered surface naval activities. Yes, and as a technical miracle, he also does not hurt.

    Recovery for 10-12 billion dollars? Think what you say!
  37. lev1201
    -1
    April 21 2015 13: 21
    "Don't build naval aircraft carriers, build missile submarines!" (N.S. Khrushchev)
  38. UVB
    0
    April 21 2015 13: 41
    The question of catapults remains open. Soviet and Russian specialists do not yet have experience in the development and construction of such equipment.
    But what about the catapult on the "Thread"? As far as I know, it worked, and the planes took off from it.
  39. +4
    April 21 2015 14: 05
    Who are we going to bomb from aircraft carriers? Honduras? Panama We do not need an aircraft carrier .... not needed! But the submarine with 200 yachts needed!
  40. 0
    April 21 2015 14: 23
    Quote: Per se.
    Quote: Spitfire
    the question arises - why not try a catamaran scheme?
    An interesting question, as they say. The catamaran, with oncoming and lateral waves, is already experiencing significant side rolling, while a single-hull vessel maintains a mode of moderate overload. This is due to the excessive lateral stability of wide catamarans and trimaran. An aircraft carrier must take off and land its aircraft, and this disadvantage of catamarans is sensitive for it. There are, one must understand, other problems, although there were projects for small aircraft-carrying catamarans for our fleet. As for your "Every time I see an aircraft carrier from such a perspective as in the photo for the article, there is a feeling that it can easily tip over", there is such a concept in shipbuilding as metacentric vessel height, if everything is fine with her, the ship behaves according to the "Vanka-vstanka" principle, if not, then the "overkill" is very likely. The sailing capacity of the vessel (for example, due to the high side) is as negative a factor as the construction or operational overload.


    Thank you, I knew a lot from the above ;-) Interestingly, modern aircraft carriers also put their nose to the wind while working with aviation, and even give way to it, or now it does not play any role?

    By the way, I decided to answer my questions myself and found an interesting article (I give a link):
    http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/archive/mnogocelevoy-vspomogatel-nyy-avianesuschiy-
    kreyser-s-maloy-ploschad-yu-vaterlinii-al-ternativa-ili-mechta-11-01-2012-13-41-
    00 /

    1. iv_v
      +1
      April 21 2015 15: 41
      By reference - golem nonsense. Vessels of this type do not currently build more than 2000 tons (except for drilling platforms) due to the wild cost and wild loads on the hull. To stir up such an aircraft carrier is the topic. Stopudovo Americans will not finish.
  41. James Cameron
    +4
    April 21 2015 14: 55
    I will quote my old comment again:

    Carriers are carriers of AWACS and anti-submarine aircraft, as well as air defense radius increases due to deck interceptors. Without such cover, the anti-aircraft missile defense / missile defense / missile defense / submarine destroyers and submarines are very vulnerable (which reduces the fleet’s efficiency by several times), just like the aircraft carriers themselves without covering the warrant ships (EM). Even coastal missile-carrying aircraft in the form of Tu-22M3 under the cover of carrier-based aviation are growing in efficiency and survival, I hope this is understandable. So the carriers in the fleet increase their overall combat effectiveness, the very presence of such ships is comparable to the increase in the number of other types of weapons (coastal aviation, surface ships of the URO and submarines) at times. That is, aircraft carriers make the fleet more efficient (including cost), due to an integrated approach.

    To everyone who continues to repeat wild monotonous nonsense (even the same sentences) about "continental power","defensive doctrine" And "we have no one to attack"....... fool fool fool fool fool

    one tip is to turn on the brain, if there is one

    When a country with the largest territory in the world (which any other state will claim if it dares), when the United States already directly declares that the presence of such territories and natural resources in one country is "not fair"- Russia has always been and will be a problem and an enemy of the whole world, because the craving for resources and power is inherent in people by nature. With such wealth, we will never have a shortage of enemies. And if in doubt, read history.
    1. iv_v
      -4
      April 21 2015 15: 11
      Quote: James Cameron
      US Already Directly Declares

      Give me a link, I'm interested.

      With such wealth


      I really lack wealth. I want the details.

      Russia has always been and will be a problem and an enemy of the whole world.


      Yes, diplomacy and PR were rarely successful. But maybe it’s worth grunting cognac, or blowing, relaxing somehow? Perhaps the world will grow.
      1. James Cameron
        +2
        April 21 2015 15: 27
        Quote: iv_v

        Give me a link, I'm interested.


        This phrase is attributed to Madeleine Albright, although she denies it. If such a policy is news for you, then read at least Brzezinski, a very smart man by the way.

        Quote: iv_v

        I really lack wealth. I want the details.


        Energy resources, metals, etc. Google to the rescue. If you want to dispose of them personally - do not be naive or make a fool of yourself, claims to them come also not from the ordinary population of America or other countries.

        Quote: iv_v
        Yes, diplomacy and PR were rarely successful. But maybe it’s worth grunting cognac, or blowing, relaxing somehow? Perhaps the world will grow.


        Tell that to bombed countries ... well, for example, the USA:

        Korea and China (1950-1953)
        Guatemala (1954)
        Indonesia (1958)
        Cuba (1959-1961)
        Guatemala (1960)
        Congo (1964)
        Laos (1964-73)
        Vietnam (1961-73)
        Cambodia (1969-70)
        Guatemala (1967-69)
        Grenada (1983)
        Lebanon (1983-1984)
        Libya (1986)
        Salvador (1980s)
        Nicaragua (1980s)
        Iran (1987)
        Panama (1989)
        Iraq (1991)
        Kuwait (1991)
        Somalia (1993)
        Bosnia (1994-95)
        Sudan (1998)
        Afghanistan (1998)
        Yugoslavia (1999)
        Yemen (2002)
        Iraq (1991 - 2003+)
        Afghanistan (since 2001)
        Pakistan (since 2007)
        Somalia (2007-8, 2011)
        Yemen (2009, 2011)
        Libya (2011)

        and so on. Turn on the brain, use logic. Maybe understand wassat
        1. iv_v
          -3
          April 21 2015 17: 04
          attributed to Madeleine Albright


          According to Wikipedia, this was specifically N. Mikhalkov in the newspaper Argumenty i Fakty in 2005. With the Brzezinski sign selectively. He seems to be an old anti-Soviet, a lover of extravagant statements. American Rogozin retired. However, the Pole, born in 28, managed to leave on time, there is nothing for him to love the Soviet regime. I'll go around, maybe he writes something interesting.

          Energy resources, metals

          Unload the first twenty Forbes and specify who is listed as a tax resident. Google to the rescue. This is not Russian wealth, but English, mainly. Alas, they will agree without me.

          Tell it to countries

          An explanatory list, very revealing. It remains to find in it those countries in which the Americans took over national wealth. It is believed that in order to be in it, natural resources are not needed. But certain foreign policy efforts are required.
    2. +2
      April 21 2015 15: 40
      Quote: James Cameron
      To everyone who continues to repeat the wild monotonous nonsense (even the sentences are the same) about "continental power", "defensive doctrine" and "we have no one to attack" ....... fool fool fool fool fool

      one tip is to turn on the brain, if there is one

      When a country with the largest territory in the world (which any other state will claim if it dares), when the United States already directly declares that the presence of such territories and natural resources in one country is "unfair"


      I also cannot understand who invented some kind of "defense doctrine"? and then we complain that NATO is expanding, the States are behaving arrogantly and are setting up their puppet governments around the world. I do not propose to conquer the whole world, but it is also stupid to watch how you were surrounded from all sides - it will lead to the fact that Russia will be next after Ukraine. I don't remember who said - an army that is only defending itself will sooner or later be defeated
  42. 0
    April 21 2015 14: 59
    Quote: saag

    On guidance from the air, any air defense and DBK have a radio-emitting device, it is enough to detect it, and so that it appears to fit some kind of vessel, which is not very pitiful, or even from space, according to the satellite of species or radar reconnaissance, but first strike at airfields , with this, the Second World War began
    So, we put anti-aircraft missiles, radars on the submarine for the detection of air defense systems, air defense systems, aircraft at aerodromes and figachev on them. I heard a lot and saw all kinds of differences, but so that a submarine with a radar would fight air defense - I read for the first time.
    1. 0
      April 21 2015 15: 42
      Quote: peresmehsnik
      but so that a submarine with radar fights air defense - I read for the first time.

      In principle, where is the insurmountable difficulty here, if the submarine receives the coordinates of the target from the air, it’s a radar, a launcher or an airfield for it
  43. James Cameron
    +3
    April 21 2015 15: 03
    However, in the case of the Admiral Kuznetsov, the springboard has some unpleasant features: "while our plane rises from his deck, four from any American aircraft carrier equipped with catapults". In the event of an open collision, this can have very unpleasant consequences.


    Lord, where are such dolboyasters taken ...... Planes from any aircraft carrier do not take off at the same time !!! The Kuzi has three starting positions, taking off one after another. After - the preparation of a new troika.

    Similarly, in nuclear with a catapult - 4 aircraft are ready to take off, are launched one after another, then - the preparation of the next four .....
  44. 0
    April 21 2015 15: 15
    This debate can go on forever. The question is not even military doctrine, but the understanding of economic development priorities. The question is really simple, if we continue the raw material model of the economy, and develop the marketing infrastructure for the available raw materials, then we need communications. It is from here that all the “Arctic Ideas” with the development of northern ports and sea communications. If we, as before, focus on industrialization and the development of internal infrastructure, then we need guaranteed protection of the infrastructure, which means protecting the coast.
    Here are two solutions to these two problems. Aircraft carriers are the best way to protect maritime communications, and submarines are the best way to end maritime communications and stop access to shore.

    Accordingly, the export economy is aircraft carriers.
    Internal development - submarines.
    Let's solve the fundamental issue of economics, and the issue with the aircraft carrier will be decided by itself.

    But I want to warn fans of aircraft carriers (export economy), in this case, forget about the balanced development of the country, the whole industry will be in ports, and the internal infrastructure will cease to exist. This elementary rule was understood even in tsarist Russia! Key valuable resources inside, not outside!

    And I would also like to remind you that there are a lot of applicants for the position of the chief "sea policeman"! And we are definitely not in the best starting position, we do not even have normal ports yet.
    1. iv_v
      0
      April 21 2015 15: 52
      Quote: Concealer
      continue the raw material model of the economy, and develop the marketing infrastructure for the available raw materials, then we need communications


      Will we defend Nord Stream and Power of Siberia with aircraft carriers? Great move.
      How many aircraft carriers does Saudi Arabia have?

      Quote: Concealer
      as before, we focus on industrialization and the development of internal infrastructure


      I did not find such times. Do not remember the 30s?

      By the way, in Germany and Japan know this topic about the protection of industry and infrastructure by submarines?
      1. 0
        April 21 2015 22: 11
        Quote: iv_v
        Will we defend Nord Stream and Power of Siberia with aircraft carriers? Great move.
        How many aircraft carriers does Saudi Arabia have?

        These are only raw materials. And I'm talking about the export economy as a whole. But since China has recalled, remember that the export-oriented economy has almost exhausted its resources. And also an excellent example of demographic and economic consequences, all cities on the coast live on imported raw materials. And already in 2020, they will completely run out of energy. So imagine where China will be in a generation. Money cannot be eaten, and it burns badly. ;)

        Quote: iv_v
        I did not find such times. Do not remember the 30s?

        Are you suggesting "back to nature"? This is precisely the current course of development - deindustrialization.

        And the Second World War has not yet shown you this? Or did you forget the blockade of England?
        1. iv_v
          +1
          April 22 2015 00: 05
          Sorry, some kind of porridge.

          As far as I know, China does not export resources. He imports them. By the way, sometimes from quite prosperous countries, such as Australia or Qatar. Depletion of resources - no one has bothered, at least after WWII. Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, Western Europe. If you are concerned about the food security of China, then in the Netherlands and Israel there is enough space for complete self-sufficiency and export. The population density is three times higher.

          we continue the raw material model of the economy, and develop the marketing infrastructure for existing raw materials


          You were talking about raw materials, which is why I gave an example of CA. The export of raw materials as the main branch of the economy and the construction of aircraft carriers are incompatible.

          Are you suggesting "back to nature"?

          I'm not a hippie. Any modern country, from Canada to Singapore, has a fairly powerful manufacturing industry. I mean that Russia, during my lifetime, got rid of industry with songs, and I don't see any achievements in infrastructure either. You can often hear, including from gentlemen ministers, that "now we will show everyone", but n * zdt - do not roll bags.

          current development course


          Post-industrial development is when over the industry is building up services, brands, the "knowledge economy", anything that begins to create a flow of money more than the industrial part of the economy. When a plant is sold for scrap metal, and workshops are rented out as warehouses, the word "development" is not appropriate.

          Has World War II not yet shown you this?


          Perhaps you have alternative information about WWII and the role of the submarine fleet in it. It is traditionally believed that submarines violate trade, and protection from landing is carried out, first of all, by aviation. Or are you planning to hunt enemy AUGs with the help of a nuclear submarine? Just AUG Russia is not very threatened. As for the fight against trade, it is now also not on the line of submarines, and indeed AUG. Mainly engaged in the State Department and the Ministry of Justice.
          1. 0
            April 22 2015 12: 44
            Quote: iv_v
            As far as I know, China does not export resources. He imports them.

            True, it imports resources. Imports since its own everything has already been converted to capital. That's just capital and resources are not at all interchangeable things. Now all its growth is built on imported resources.

            Quote: iv_v
            Depletion of resources - no one has bothered, at least after WWII. Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, Western Europe.

            And you do not remember why Germany fought in World War II? Why was Japan forced to step into the war?

            Quote: iv_v
            If you are concerned about the food security of China, then in the Netherlands and Israel there is enough space for complete self-sufficiency and export. The population density is three times higher.

            You are mistaken the high productivity of modern agriculture is unthinkable without a developed chemical industry. And the chemical industry requires resources and energy. A lot of energy.

            Quote: iv_v
            You were talking about raw materials, which is why I gave an example of CA. The export of raw materials as the main branch of the economy and the construction of aircraft carriers are incompatible.

            In principle, it does not matter in what form you are converting existing resources into capital, it is important that you lose them irretrievably. As far as I understand, our elite just wants to create an export model, where we sell not oil and gas, but products of their processing. And in another way, we convert the resources of the state into capital for a narrow circle of people. This is the export model of the economy. Understand the obvious - capital cannot be turned back into resources.
            1. iv_v
              0
              April 22 2015 17: 39
              own everything has already been converted to capital


              Its growth is built on value added. Like any other. As for raw materials for industry, this is a purely logistic issue. In Singapore, there is no raw material at all, but there is industry.

              you don’t remember why Germany fought in World War II


              Why Japan was forced to step into the war


              As far as I understand you, you believe that Germany and Japan WWII won, which ensured the development of industry in both countries to the current level. I'm afraid you should brush up on the details.

              requires resources and energy


              What's the problem? Have you heard of blackouts in China? Do you know at least one developed country where agricultural production is limited by fertilizer shortages?

              A little pointless conversation. Are you aware of industries experiencing global raw material restrictions? Countries that have achieved a monopoly in any industry using natural resources? Just do not need examples from WWII and earlier.

              our elite is just dreaming

              I don’t understand where you got such ideas about the elite from. The elite wants to sell, okey and dump. Fate R.A. Abramovich and M.B. Khodorkovsky does not give the elite the opportunity to doubt which of these two guessed better. To sell processed products, you need to build factories. As far as I know, no one has been built since the times of the USSR, either in the oil industry, in gas processing, or in large metallurgy. In manufacturing, there were, but mostly little things.

              "capital cannot be converted back into resources"
              Again. Why do you consider underground resources good? The Saudi Arabian Oil Minister, as far as I know, spoke out in the opposite way - he was worried that in 20 years oil would cost $ 10, but nobody would need it.
              1. 0
                April 23 2015 12: 13
                Quote: iv_v
                "capital cannot be converted back into resources"
                Again. Why do you consider underground resources good? The Saudi Arabian Oil Minister, as far as I know, spoke out in the opposite way - he was worried that in 20 years oil would cost $ 10, but nobody would need it.

                I consider good the resources directed to the internal development of the state. Otherwise, resources aimed at developing internal rather than external infrastructure.

                And again, capital cannot be turned back into resources. And capital does not contribute to the scientific development of society, but the development of infrastructure gives rise to scientific development.
                1. iv_v
                  0
                  April 23 2015 15: 04
                  Terms should be clarified.
                  "State" is not equal to "country". This is a complex of certain institutions that perform certain functions. Lives on taxes and duties. In monetary form, of course.
                  "Country" - (slightly simplifying) a territory that has sovereignty to one degree or another (on which the state is located). It may have abundant natural resources (Canada, Australia, USA, Brazil, Sudan, Congo, Equivalent Guinea), or not (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Israel, Jordan, Mongolia, Yemen, Belize, Haiti, Bangladesh). Its natural resources are not very connected with the development of the country.
                  "Capital" (in the Marxian interpretation) - all means of labor (equipment, buildings, transport, whatever). The more capital is involved in the production process, the higher, as a rule, labor productivity in industry. High labor productivity in industry contributes to the development of society and development itself.
              2. 0
                April 29 2015 03: 16
                As I know

                And this is not an argument.


                In which industrial country since the Soviet Union in the oil industry, gas processing, large metallurgy built manufacturing?
          2. 0
            April 22 2015 12: 44
            Quote: iv_v
            Post-industrial development is when services, brands, "knowledge economy", everything that begins to create a flow of money more than the industrial part of the economy is growing over the industry. When a plant is sold for scrap metal, and workshops are rented out as warehouses, the word "development" is not appropriate.

            Let's take a look at the terminology, otherwise the gentlemen "liberals", in order to save a convenient world order, have already piled up such a garden here that the obvious and elementary truth is simply invisible. And so the post-industrial model of development, in other words - the "knowledge economy", is a development model when the main products are produced with the overwhelming share of human intellectual labor. And then two questions immediately arise: Why? Who produces?
            It is the answers to these two elementary questions that put all "liberals" in a complete stupor. The question why is always a meaningless answer - because as a result of technological progress, people are no longer needed directly in production. Okay, then what will the people be up to? As I understand it, they will work as "managers" during the day, and watch talk shows on TV in the evening and drink beer, which will create intellectual products. :)
            The answer to the second question is simply in the style of science fiction - robotic factories will be produced. Forgive me, but if a large share of products is intellectual work, then a large share of the profit goes to the creators - people. Who, then, should build "robotic factories" if they are no longer profitable? Who will invest in production if it is not profitable? Aliens? :)
            So be careful with terms. The truth is obvious, post-industrial production requires huge highly educated human resources, and the "knowledge economy" is incompatible with "capitalism". So the factories are naturally scrapped. We were initially on the verge of moving into a post-industrial society, but we chose the Western model of development, and now we are also trying to save the dying model. The stupidity is fantastic. "Robots will work", and we will all be the owners of profitable robotic factories. :)

            Quote: iv_v
            As for the fight against trade, it is now also not on the line of submarines, and indeed AUG. Mainly engaged in the State Department and the Ministry of Justice.

            This is just for now. Everything is just beginning, and the world is now global. The goals of a country cannot exist without imported resources, as England did during World War II. Now we have all the countries - England.

            Quote: iv_v
            Perhaps you have alternative information about WWII and the role of the submarine fleet in it.

            My knowledge of the role of the submarine fleet is directly from the memoirs of the participants. And it was precisely the untimely understanding of the role and importance of the submarine fleet that did not allow the complete blockade of England during the war to be realized. There would no longer be England, and there would be no landing in a narrow strait. If the Germans launched Model 21 into the series three years earlier, shipping would cease to exist completely. The Atlantic would become too dangerous a place for shipping AT ALL. So it’s possible to understand the protection against the landing in different ways. And the best defense is when ships cannot sail to your shore at all.
            1. iv_v
              0
              April 22 2015 18: 12
              such a garden was piled

              Yes, messy enough. A post-industrial economy is an economy where the share of employed and the share of value added in all sectors except industry and agriculture exceeds 50%. All the rest of your layouts are incomprehensible. More precisely, the thesis that you are justifying is not clear.
              And a purely stylistic nuance. The term "obvious truth" is commonly used by people with mental disabilities (this should not be understood as disrespect for people with mental disabilities). Better more careful with him.

              Entire countries cannot exist without imported resources


              They can, but bad. The post was about the fact that the blockade is mainly implemented by diplomatic means.

              My knowledge of the role of the submarine fleet directly from memoirs


              Then you should re-read your post to which I replied. You suggested that the submarine fleet could serve as a defense for industrial and transport infrastructure, contrasting it with an aircraft carrier, which is needed to protect communications. That is, as if the submarine fleet protected the industrial and transport infrastructure of Germany.

              If the Germans launched Model 21 into the series three years earlier


              “If the Soviets had launched the IS-3 3 years earlier”, “If the Germans had launched the Tiger I and the Panther 3 years earlier”, “If the Americans had gotten superheats and had bombed 3 years earlier”. It's not funny to you, is it? Do you not admit that the design of the 21st series required, in particular, the experience of using boats?
              1. 0
                April 23 2015 12: 31
                Quote: iv_v
                A post-industrial economy is an economy where the share of employed and the share of value added in all sectors except industry and agriculture exceeds 50%. All the rest of your layouts are incomprehensible. More precisely, the thesis that you are justifying is not clear.

                If 50% of the value added is intellectual capital, then this means - 50% of production. Is it clear now? :)
                This is the "intellectual rent" that any manufacturer pays. And with each development cycle, the share of "intellectual rent" grows. That is why the "obvious truth" is, because it is before everyone's eyes, but we diligently do not want to accept it.

                Quote: iv_v
                That is, as if the submarine fleet protected the industrial and transport infrastructure of Germany.

                The submarine fleet made the transportation of troops by sea extremely dangerous, and this was at a primitive level of development of communications and weapons. Let's be honest, the naval power of England lost the naval war to the submarine fleet.
                And at the current level of development, this means the inability to use maritime communications for military purposes. Which is required.
                1. iv_v
                  0
                  April 23 2015 15: 31
                  You should clarify the principles of calculation and the sectoral structure of the GDP of various countries. The post-industrial economy is not equal to the high-tech industry. In post-industrial economies, the main share of value added is made up of services (financial, medical, transport, educational, tourism, trade (with reservations), whatever). So understandable? And this does not mean at all that a post-industrial economy implies a rejection of industry. The refusal of the USA or Western Europe from industry is simply a slogan of leftist anti-globalists, like terrible GMOs or warming.
                  "Intellectual rent" is a bit of an absurd term, sorry. If you believe that Chinese iPhone manufacturers are paying Apple's "smart rent", you should learn more about outsourcing production to China.

                  About the submarines. Sorry, but the nuclear submarines are not used to hunt for Liberty convoys, they were not invented for this. As well as AUG. Much has changed over the past 70 years. Sinking a Chinese container ship or a Japanese gas tanker by an attack from Ash is too extravagant a step, even for Russia.
                  1. 0
                    April 23 2015 16: 45
                    Quote: iv_v
                    The post-industrial economy is not equal to the high-tech industry.

                    I agree. But the bottom is to use high-tech machines for assembling products and completely different to develop products. That’s what I’m talking about. Everyone who manufactures high-tech products on someone else’s equipment and using someone else’s technological schemes will inevitably give part of the added value to the developer. But this does not change the essence; value added does not return to production.

                    Quote: iv_v
                    In post-industrial economies, the main share of value added is made up of services (financial, medical, transport, educational, tourism, trade (with reservations), whatever).

                    So it turns out that all the attendants. Please note they do not produce anything. So they are not engaged in production. Yes, they are not busy at all.
                    But if they do not participate in production, then there will be no new production ideas from them. Does this fact bother you?

                    Quote: iv_v
                    If you believe that Chinese iPhone manufacturers are paying Apple's “smart rent”, you should learn more about outsourcing manufacturing to China.

                    Chinese workers simply do the work of robots for a cup of rice. That allows not to share the added value with the manufacturer of machine tools and equipment.
                    But the essence is the same, the added value is leaving production in favor of the "brand". But "brand" is not production.
                    Have you ever wondered where this 50% added value for smart products ("smart rent") goes?

                    Quote: iv_v
                    About the submarines. Sorry, but the nuclear submarines are not used to hunt for Liberty convoys, they were not invented for this. As well as AUG. Much has changed over the past 70 years. Sinking a Chinese container ship or a Japanese gas tanker by an attack from Ash is too extravagant a step, even for Russia.

                    And I didn’t talk about the nuclear submarines. I spoke about the submarine fleet as a way to destroy maritime communications. And you need to approach the solution of this problem accordingly, without fanaticism. Remembering WWII, I remember they used the conveyor production of boats. ;) And today you can also implement external target designation. ;)
                    But AUG is precisely the control of maritime communications. But why?
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. iv_v
                      0
                      April 23 2015 18: 47
                      inevitably gives part of the added value to the developer

                      I do not understand the concept. You are worried that California’s R&D and marketing divisions have higher margins than factories in China (and indeed, in Oklahoma). What's the problem? IBM, Apple, Sony, yes any (manufacturing) high-tech company has grown over production. It has grown so much that production has become a small and unimportant part of it.
                      not at all busy

                      A harsh statement. I would not say that the people who invented your computer wrote programs to it, brought it to you, sold it in the store, gave money for the whole process before you paid for the computer, and, by the way, gave you credit for the computer - do nothing. And yes, by the way, people who work in a cafe, clean their apartments, walk with dogs - they also produce, oddly enough. They spend your free time.
                      I do not understand your concern about the shortage of new ideas. This is where they are missing, in the USA? Germany? Japan?

                      Chinese workers just do the work of robots for a cup of rice

                      Are you really worried about the situation of Chinese workers? Do you think that the CCP is pursuing a comprador policy of squeezing juices from the Chinese people in the name of the profits of American corporations? Instead, it was necessary to engage in the construction of national brands?
                      There is an opinion that the CCP has achieved considerable success. In modern production, brands appear after production, not before. Just now appear. Speaking of a cup of rice. China is second only to the United States in terms of millionaires. China is similar to Russia in this regard. Only Moscow there is not 12, but 120 million people.

                      And I didn’t talk about the nuclear submarines. I spoke about the submarine fleet as a way to destroy maritime communications.


                      Finally did not understand. Do you think it would be reasonable to launch a mass production of diesel-electric submarines and launch "wolf packs" into the Gulf of Mexico? Or the South China Sea? North? Or where? Seriously?
                      1. 0
                        April 23 2015 19: 37
                        Quote: iv_v
                        I do not understand the concept. You are worried that California’s R&D and marketing divisions have higher margins than factories in China (and indeed, in Oklahoma). What's the problem? IBM, Apple, Sony, and any (manufacturing) high-tech company has grown over production. It has grown so much that production has become a small and unimportant part of it.

                        Q.E.D. The producer receives only a small part of the added value. Capital is not returned to production. :))))))
                        And who will produce it? Chinese? Robots?

                        Quote: iv_v
                        They spend your free time.

                        No. They produce a comfortable and convenient life for the recipients of those same 50% of the added value. But who do you think they are?
                        I repeat again, they are staff not engaged in production. Moreover, they will never create production ideas simply because they:
                        Quote: iv_v
                        work in a cafe, tidy up apartments, walk with dogs


                        And notice, with each turnover of capital, the number of service personnel increases, and the number of recipients of "intellectual rent" is thinning. Simply because the housekeeper will never be an engineer. She does not have the opportunity and time for this.

                        Quote: iv_v
                        This is where they are missing, in the USA? Germany? Japan?

                        It is not enough. Therefore, a constant influx of "fresh brains" is required. "Brain import" is the basis of prosperity. :)

                        Quote: iv_v
                        Speaking of a cup of rice. China is second only to the United States in terms of millionaires. China is similar to Russia in this regard. Only Moscow there is not 12, but 120 million people.

                        And what is good? What does this show? In China there is still an excess of human resources in the countryside willing to work for a cup of rice. And what will happen when the human resource runs out?
                        Have you ever wondered what the real price of this industrial growth is? Yes, China was just robbed. Capital cannot be turned back into resources.

                        Quote: iv_v
                        Finally did not understand. Do you think it would be reasonable to launch a mass production of diesel-electric submarines and launch "wolf packs" into the Gulf of Mexico? Or the South China Sea? North? Or where? Seriously?

                        A submarine fleet is needed to protect the coast, and not to attack. And in this he is simply impeccable. And if there is a need, he is always able to interrupt strategic communications. Which is required. Today, the naval blockade is deadlier than ever for most countries.
                        The submarine fleet is an excellent weapon of defense and strategic deterrence. Think about who will fight at sea with a country capable of destroying the aggressor’s maritime communications?
                      2. iv_v
                        0
                        April 24 2015 02: 40
                        QED

                        Excuse me, what have you proved? What factories operate on an irreplaceable Confucian spirit? The equipment is depreciated (in some countries - for 2-3 years), the payment for capital (financial) is included in the cost. Are you worried about the underinvestment of fixed assets of developed countries? How did you hear about such a problem?

                        And who will produce it?

                        Anyone who can organize production at minimal cost. What worries you? Do you see a global capacity shortage?

                        produce a comfortable and convenient life

                        It is believed that this is the only task of any economy. Everything else, including the production of aircraft carriers - is subject to the solution of this problem.
                        they will never create production ideas

                        What the hell? Why should everyone create production ideas? Maybe if you allow a good engineer not to be distracted by trifles, will there be more sense? The question is who exactly should be an engineer, and who the minibus driver does not apply to the sectoral structure of the economy.
                        requires a constant influx of "fresh brains"

                        Wealthy teams buy the best players. The influx of brains is not a law of nature. People go to where it is more convenient. What's wrong with it?
                        And what is good?

                        And is that bad? In India, Africa, South America, there is no Moscow for 120 million people, they seem to be not very happy. Are you worried that China is not Sweden? Not Cuba? Do you think it is fairer that the guys sit in the villages? Back to basic, harmony with nature, is that all?
                        for coastal protection

                        Which ones? Murmansk, Vladik, Novorossiysk, Taganrog? Peter? Are you seriously afraid of amphibious assault? By the way, where did the submarines help against the landing? In Normandy? Korea? Vietnam Bay of pigs?
                        who will fight at sea

                        1. No one. No one is fighting at sea. They rule humanitarian bombing and ground operations.
                        2. Anyone. Flushing neutrals is a very expensive pleasure. Even the States, emnip, were not particularly abused.
                      3. 0
                        April 24 2015 17: 02
                        Quote: iv_v
                        Are you worried about the underinvestment of fixed assets of developed countries? How did you hear about such a problem?

                        No, this does not bother me at all, because this is not the main thing, but only an inevitable consequence. I can only repeat that capital is not returned to production. It is not returned, since it is not profitable to invest where the added value is minimal. And where in developed countries have you seen the development of production? :)

                        Quote: iv_v
                        Anyone who can organize production at minimal cost.

                        Sure? Are you able to build a factory in Europe or the United States able to compete with the Chinese? Sure?

                        Quote: iv_v
                        It is believed that this is the only task of any economy. Everything else, including the production of aircraft carriers - is subject to the solution of this problem.

                        Do you really believe that? What do you really think that this is the task of the existing economic model?
                        Today politics is more important than economics! Or how do you explain the existence of "sanctions against Russia"? This means that the real economy has completely different goals. ;)

                        Quote: iv_v
                        What the hell? Why should everyone create production ideas? Maybe if you allow a good engineer not to be distracted by trifles, will there be more sense? The question is who exactly should be an engineer, and who the minibus driver does not apply to the sectoral structure of the economy.

                        Well, that’s the main issue. So you think servants should always be servants? Or how?
                        If exaggerated, it turns out approximately the following: Only every tenth person is able to be an engineer, and only every tenth engineer is talented. And this means that only one out of a hundred people is able to create new, provided that he has the opportunity for this.
                        So it turns out that either we create a social system that allows everyone to become an engineer, or we simply will not have talented engineers at all. Everyone should have access to production, or there will be no development.
                        Besides, hundreds of millions of "service personnel" don't scare you? Or do you think they all agree to "walk the dogs"? You just think about the ratio of maintenance personnel to "intellectual rent recipients". Are you familiar with the concept of social dystopia? This is it!

                        Quote: iv_v
                        Wealthy teams buy the best players. The influx of brains is not a law of nature. People go to where it is more convenient. What's wrong with it?

                        The system itself. The system is not capable of supporting itself.

                        Quote: iv_v
                        And is that bad? In India, Africa, South America, there is no Moscow for 120 million people, they seem to be not very happy. Are you worried that China is not Sweden? Not Cuba? Do you think it is fairer that the guys sit in the villages? Back to basic, harmony with nature, is that all?

                        The question is how he carried out industrialization. But it bothers me, a country without resources, unable to exist independently, with a billion people and bordering Russia. Energy carriers, for example, run out in 2020. I think this is a serious cause for concern. :)
                      4. iv_v
                        0
                        April 24 2015 23: 54
                        added value is minimal


                        You confuse margin and added value. Margin (profit) depends on competition, nothing more. In businesses where competition can be limited (through patents, trademarks, laws) - it is higher, in highly competitive ones (assembly) is minimal.

                        And where in developed countries have you seen the development of production?


                        Everywhere. Industry is from 15 to 25% of the capital economy. Fixed assets are updated every few years. If you think that gelding can be made on equipment 10 years ago without developing production, you are mistaken. And industry has not sagged since WWII. Just the rest of the sectors grew faster.
                        Are you able to build a factory in Europe or the United States able to compete with the Chinese?

                        Me not. But there are better trained people than me. With regard to ships, a country that does not have a powerful shipbuilding industry will not build an aircraft carrier, at least take Russia. The share of industry in the US economy is about 20%. In terms of gross production in the industrial sectors, the USA, EU and China are comparable.
                        Today, politics is more important than economics!

                        In Russia, alas, yes. But not everyone is so lucky. Sanctions - while the clowning. Big uncles should show themselves cool. If the economy is being rebuilt to a new reality (you know, nuclear ashes - it is surprisingly harmful for a comfortable life, if you don’t have it, you can pay dearly), then for Russia everything will become much sadder.
                        social dystopia? This is it!

                        A lot of pathos. Mostly 30-year-old professional students and desperate poor people from Somalia who just came from Somalia to Sweden to fight for their civil rights are fighting the world of capital. The rest are more or less satisfied. The topic of access to quality education for all worthy has nothing to do with the structure of the economy, it is a purely organizational issue. In the so-called in post-industrial countries, it is generally solved better than elsewhere. Although the Chinese with rice ask.
                        The system is not able to support itself.

                        Where does this conclusion come from? They go to the States more, to Germany - substantially less, but the Germans somehow manage, do not cry, sort of. The system is not capable of supporting itself, from which all who have such an opportunity fall (think about it).
                        I think this is a serious cause for concern.

                        I don't understand this concern. Is there something in Russia that they refuse to sell? Something they can't buy elsewhere? This, incidentally, concerns everyone who wants to "get their hands on it." As far as I am informed, China is not worried about the actual resources, but about the safety of trade routes. Hence all these themes with the South China Sea, the Silk Road, etc.
                        Energy, for example, they run out of
                        .
                        1. This is just a lie. Chinese thermal energy is coal. There is a topic of getting down from coal and switching to less dirty sources, including imported oil and gas. But here China needs a sea transportation, it’s more convenient.
                        2. In Japan, they did not start. Until recently, the second industrial world.
                      5. 0
                        April 24 2015 17: 03
                        Quote: iv_v
                        Which ones? Murmansk, Vladik, Novorossiysk, Taganrog? Peter? Are you seriously afraid of amphibious assault? By the way, where did the submarines help against the landing? In Normandy? Korea? Vietnam Bay of pigs?

                        I propose restricting access to all types of warships. And I propose to create a threat to the destruction of maritime communications, if necessary. It is cheaper and more effective than a dozen aircraft carriers.

                        Quote: iv_v
                        1. No one. No one is fighting at sea. They rule humanitarian bombing and ground operations.

                        It is only today. And tomorrow? It is not clear what will happen tomorrow?

                        Quote: iv_v
                        2. Anyone. Flushing neutrals is a very expensive pleasure. Even the States, emnip, were not particularly abused.

                        Sure? Come on? Do you know the law of the sea well? Believe me, in the event of a military conflict, the real flags of the shipowner are quickly raised on the ships, not offshore handkerchiefs and rags.

                        I can only repeat what was said at the very beginning:
                        The export-oriented economy is aircraft carriers.
                        Internal development - submarine fleet.
                      6. iv_v
                        0
                        April 25 2015 00: 07
                        It is not clear what will happen tomorrow?


                        No

                        real shipowner flags rise quickly


                        China, USA or EU. So, what is next?
                        If the indicated flags support you, then there is nowhere for transport to come from. If you don’t support it, it’s better to keep your playful torpedoes with you.
                      7. 0
                        April 25 2015 10: 02
                        Quote: iv_v
                        It is not clear what will happen tomorrow?

                        No

                        Then I will not explain. See for yourself. Directly, personally, and see.

                        Quote: iv_v
                        China, USA or EU. So, what is next?
                        If the indicated flags support you, then there is nowhere for transport to come from. If you don’t support it, it’s better to keep your playful torpedoes with you.

                        You correctly identified the key state and pseudo-states, but did not indicate who depends on whom. So it is only necessary to come to an agreement with China, and it is through the efforts of the United States. Today, in exchange for hydrocarbons, it is ready to unconditionally support Russia's policy. He now has no choice.
                        As for the EU and the USA, it makes no sense to negotiate with them. There is simply no one to talk to, and nothing to talk about. So the option of a semi-annual naval blockade will allow governments in the EU and the US to completely share the views, policies and economic principles of Russia. They, with their own hands, made the world global, depleted their own resources and destroyed production. And this fact is well understood in the EU and the USA, that's why they are trying to impose on us the Chinese concept of development. The robbery of China is already ending, and there is no one else to rob except Russia. Hence the wild idea with the export economy and its consequence aircraft carriers.
                      8. iv_v
                        0
                        April 25 2015 10: 51
                        ready to unconditionally support Russian policy

                        Wow, at least someone is ready. Interestingly, C is already in the know? You should be interested in the structure of China's energy sector and Russia's share in the Chinese hydrocarbon market.

                        trying to impose on us the Chinese development concept

                        Unfortunately, to impose development (any) is impossible. This is a big job, which in Russia, it seems, no one is going to do. You don’t have to worry.

                        to have governments in the EU and the USA that fully share the views, policies and economic principles of Russia

                        Bright statement. It seems that even Kiselev has not yet. How is the weather in alternative reality, warm?
                      9. 0
                        April 25 2015 16: 30
                        Quote: iv_v
                        You should inquire about the structure of China’s energy sector and Russia's share in the Chinese hydrocarbon market.


                        Quote: iv_v
                        You don’t have to worry.


                        Quote: iv_v
                        Bright statement. It seems that even Kiselev has not yet. How is the weather in alternative reality, warm?


                        I have been selling fuel for export for over ten years. So in my reality everything is fine. I check it against Coaltrans and Platts. There are only a few months left before the energy collapse. Or do you think prices just fell for "variety"? It's time to understand that politics is more important than economics. And no illusions.
                        And after it, the obvious will be clear: Capital cannot be exchanged for resources back.
                      10. iv_v
                        0
                        April 26 2015 22: 19
                        Quote: Concealer
                        I have been selling fuel for export for more than ten years

                        Capital cannot be exchanged for resources back.


                        Hate your job? It happens...

                        by Coaltrans and Platts. Only months are left before the energy collapse


                        I was not too lazy to climb. Immediately about the imminent collapse of the hydrocarbon market, I did not find anything right this year. Do not drop the link? Or do you need a vip registration?
                      11. 0
                        April 27 2015 10: 37
                        Quote: iv_v
                        Or do you need a vip registration?

                        :)))))))) I think you understand me. :))))))
                        ARA traders' stocks are less than 45 days. The overall decline in solid fuel production is 30% per year. And this is not the first year. As regards hydrocarbons, the situation is even more cheerful now, whole complexes are being stopped. And American traders, with a manic conviction, are crushing prices. The production of fuel is not the production of "buns", here the market reaction time is 1-1,5 years!
                        And Ukraine represented more than 10% of the world solid fuel market on the energy market. And for anthracite in general, 1/3 of the market. And this is not counting electricity to Europe. And then there are Ukrainian grades of coal Zh and GZh, which are the basis of metallurgy. ;) And they also have a "pipe" where 30% of the consumption of Europe.
                        Nobody in Europe gave up the usual six-month stocks, trusting the "analysts". And everywhere where hydrocarbon reserves "unexpectedly" arose political instability. It's just not clear that there will probably be a terrorist attack with Australia. :)))))))))
                        Obviously always before my eyes. So think for yourself what is happening and who benefits from it.
                        The clock of the last report has been ticking for a long time.
                      12. iv_v
                        0
                        April 27 2015 21: 40
                        The clock of the last report has been ticking for a long time

                        What kind of alarmism? Want to close a long position? IMHO the wrong audience.

                        Stocks of ARA traders less than 45 days


                        What are you talking about? About coal? Because hydrocarbons, it seems, have record reserves, including in ara.

                        By the way, where does coal come from in ara? Not from the States? Is there interruption with him?

                        Anthracite in general 1/3 of the market

                        the basis of metallurgy


                        And what kind of problems with ferrous metal? Is he not at the minimum now?

                        And they also have a "pipe"


                        And who is preparing a Merkel present there? Junta? Zhydobandera? By the way, what is the current of the northern stream?

                        wherever hydrocarbon reserves "unexpectedly" arose political instability

                        Where is it? In Yemen?

                        By the way, I missed a thought. Who does ZOG harm now? EU with China, or what?
                      13. 0
                        April 26 2015 18: 50
                        Kriegsmarine also thought so until 1943,
                      14. 0
                        April 27 2015 10: 44
                        Enough and 6-8 months of interrupted communications. Russia is not Germany, and there is no need to control the sea routes to supply industry with resources. And besides, it's not 1943 in the yard. The world is now global and high-tech. And the population is technologically dependent.
                        How long can a modern metropolis survive on its own reserves? How long will it last without electric energy? How many minutes do you need to interrupt the energy supply to modern production for its complete destruction? What will happen if the gas supply to the chemical plant is cut off? What will happen to the city if you turn off the banking system?
                        In modern civilization, autonomy is zero.
                      15. iv_v
                        0
                        April 27 2015 22: 08
                        I'm confused. Are stocks now at lows or highs?
                      16. 0
                        April 28 2015 05: 27
                        It is not stocks that matter, but their attitude to production and logistics. If the market rate remains the same, selling wood and generators in winter in Europe will be the most profitable business.
                        The Ukrainian energy system has already learned the truth - you cannot buy what is not. Absolutely no. And will not be.
  45. 0
    April 21 2015 15: 25
    Money nowhere to go?
  46. +3
    April 21 2015 15: 37
    Quote: iv_v
    Quote: James Cameron
    US Already Directly Declares

    Give me a link, I'm interested.


    These were the words of Condoleezza Rice. I quote:
    "Siberia is too big to belong to one state"
    need a link? google it.

    moreover
    Madeline Albright:
    "Where is justice here if only one country owns such land as Siberia?"
    "Russians should be reduced to 15 million people serving wells and mines" Margaret Thatcher

    Few?
    1. iv_v
      -1
      April 21 2015 17: 34
      Quote: Delta
      need a link? google

      Googled. “Siberia is too large a territory to belong to one state.” Even if she didn’t say exactly that, she probably thought. ” A. Pushkov, deputy of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, United Russia.

      Where is justice here, if only one country owns such land as Siberia?

      This is the same phrase that you attributed to Rice, only the words are rearranged.

      should be reduced


      The author is A. Parshev, who wrote that he "heard somewhere." G. Zyuganov and other patriots popularized it.

      You should admit the hypothesis that freaks and evil clowns do not become either secretaries of state or British prime ministers. This is not the State Duma of the Russian Federation.
  47. 0
    April 21 2015 16: 00
    First you need to understand - there is a doctrine of the use of aircraft carriers. in addition to the aircraft carriers, no one somehow says if there is an infrastructure for servicing them and how much in rubles it will pull.
  48. 0
    April 21 2015 18: 50
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    It is not difficult to threaten, but to do it ... Then - hypersonic anti-ship missiles - this is IMHO not the best option for missiles against ships. It is high-altitude by definition (hypersonic over water is excluded), it is not maneuverable (it will fall apart at such a speed), and its defeat is generally not something very complicated - almost more difficult than a ballistic target
    1. By the time our AV is put into service, I think the GZR will be created. 2. Upon entering the atmosphere due to the formation of plasma around the warhead, the rocket will be forced to reduce its speed to less than 3M and, of course, will not fall apart. It will be as "easy" to hit it as Onyx.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    In order to hammer on AUG you need to know where it is. Target designation who will give?
    Liana, over-the-horizon radar (up to 3000km). One is already built.
    Quote: Pilot

    "as a rule" still 300 km, and if necessary, a second patrol is set up at a distance of 600 km from AB
    Let it be 300 km, the result will be the same - the bombers will go unnoticed. The second patrol is almost a dozen aircraft DROLiU. It is necessary to choose the direction of impact by bombers. And you can not guess. A ZRLS will help Bombers find the optimal direction of impact.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    How many rockets do you need? A hundred? Where can I get fifty stratobommers to deliver your PPP?
    GZR will require as much (by weight) as Onyxes or X-22s. 30 units of TU-22M3M will be used for their delivery, plus PAK YES.
  49. 0
    April 21 2015 20: 17
    Or maybe it’s easier to buy, (attach, etc.) islands and peninsulas across the oceans. Unsinkable aircraft carriers!
    Well ... like Crimean.
  50. +1
    April 22 2015 00: 51
    Let's just say there’s nothing to discuss. It must be necessary and there is no less talk, it was proved long ago that we need aircraft carriers and we need to build them. Our allies are Army and Navy.
  51. 0
    April 22 2015 05: 25
    We need not only aviation, we need aviation, submarines, docks, qualified personnel, infrastructure, etc.. In other words, we need a strong scientifically, technically, and economically strong country. And when all this happens, many disputes and questions will be unnecessary.
    1. 0
      April 22 2015 07: 27
      Isn’t that all there is to it?
  52. +1
    April 22 2015 18: 00
    The most populated territory of Russia is located in close proximity to only one ocean, the Arctic Ocean, where an aircraft carrier is not ice, or rather it will be ice (it’s bad to joke with ice, especially near such a trough). In addition, there is a very unpleasant concentration of submarines there for any ship. Why should Russia throw 10 billion into the fire? bucks, only for one ship, which will live in war conditions for several minutes (planes taking off from it will no longer land on it).
    1. 0
      April 22 2015 18: 14
      Ask America why she needs 10 laughing
      1. 0
        April 24 2015 06: 58
        Quote: Scraptor
        Ask America why she needs 10 laughing

        I hope when the buck collapses there won't be a single one left! negative
        1. 0
          April 26 2015 19: 52
          is not a fact. Americans were driven into becoming soldiers, both now and in WWII, by economic difficulties artificially created within the country (the Depression of the 30s, the mortgage crisis of the 00s, there is no and almost never was universal conscription).
  53. +1
    April 26 2015 10: 17
    Stop arguing, we need to build aircraft carriers! And let aircraft-carrying formations sail the seas and oceans, protecting our ships and merchant fleet vessels from pirates from the United States and countries under its control.
    It has always been the case that Russian sailors protected trade routes and caravans. In the 19th century, for example, ours caught American ships loaded with slaves from Africa and hanged their captains and senior mates on the yards for crimes against humanity - in accordance with international law, of course. Hence the current hatred of our Navy by American scum like Biden, whose great-grandfathers were involved in the slave trade.
  54. 0
    28 June 2015 19: 01
    Good deal. China will then buy the unfinished building on the cheap, as it has already done.
  55. +1
    27 June 2017 19: 06
    First of all, you need to decide what aircraft carriers are needed for: For a war with the United States? This is nonsense, they have 10 aircraft carriers and in any case we will not be able to cope with this purely economically. For information: General Marine. requests 6. To destroy the US AUS we need something else, say a combat orbital system... But if we need to gouge terrorists or show our flag to environmentalists from Senegal... Some ships with a displacement of 50-70 thousand tons with an air group of 50-60 aircraft.