Towards the morning dawn - on the "Angara"

42
In the race of super-heavy carriers of Russia, it is recommended to go the distance

All debates about how to develop the domestic space program in the near future may have been stopped by 12 in March, when the Scientific and Technical Council of Roscosmos, just headed by industry veteran Yury Koptev (before him, the place was traditionally “reserved” for the head of the Federal Space Agency) made a fateful decision - to recommend to the executive authorities to forget for a while about the development of an extra-heavy launch vehicle capable of putting a payload of up to 75 tons into low-Earth orbit and focusing on wake up on improving the heavy version of the Angar launch vehicle with a payload of up to 35 tons.

As you know, one of the initial versions of the yet unapproved Federal Space Program (FKP) for 2016 – 2025 provided for the creation of a super-heavy class launch vehicle. It was about 75 tonnes carrying capacity (at the first stage) "in order to launch new-generation spacecraft into high near-earth orbits, as well as to the Moon, Mars, Jupiter and other bodies of the Solar System."

Let us pay attention to the words “in order to launch spacecraft of a new generation into high near-earth orbits”. A few hints of what kind of devices will be made with reference to the Americans below.

Why did the NTS make such a decision, and without competition, although there would be a lot of money at stake? Why wasn’t a public discussion, which in theory should precede even recommendatory conclusions? Until the final decision is made, the Military-Industrial Courier gives the floor to those who uphold the position of the Roscosmos NTS and those who strongly disagree.

But first - a little stories and officialdom.

Even during the active work of the Joint Commission of Roscosmos and NASA (it was formed in 1994 as the Utkin-Stafford Commission, and later renamed Anfimov-Stafford) in 2009, it was determined that taking into account future payloads and possible interaction during future missions in deep space, both Russia and the United States need launch vehicles with a payload of up to 18 tons and 70 – 80 tons with the prospect of reaching 130 tons. The United States has the first and is confidently moving in the second direction - their SLS (Space Launch System) super-heavy carrier with an initial payload of 70 tons must make the first flight at the end of the 2018 of the year. Russia intended to follow the same path. But…

As reported by the press service of Roskosmos from 12 March, the agency NTS, "taking into account the real possibilities of state financing of the projects of the Federal Space Program to 2025 of the year (it has not yet been accepted, there is only a project. - Approx." MIC ") and the Federal Target Program for the Development of Space Centers before the 2025 of the year (such does not exist at all, the current federal target program is calculated until the end of 2015 of the year. - Note. "MIC"), as well as the need for the priority development of the Russian orbital group, decided to recommend to the Khrunichev Research and Production Center (GKNPTs), together with the Energia rocket and space corporation (RSC), to develop an advance design of the Angara-A5B launch vehicle with its possible adaptation with promising transport and manned ships and other payloads for to fly to the near-moon space and to the surface of the moon. "

Towards the morning dawn - on the "Angara"


Later, the head of the NTS explained that this recommendation was taken primarily from financial considerations (according to his data, the change in the value of the ruble led to the fact that the increase in the cost of each space project was about 27%), and also due to the fact that “today and in the foreseeable future, no payloads are visible, except for flights to the Moon or to Mars, which would require such a class of carriers. ” (What about the “new generation spacecraft”?)

At the same time, it was claimed that the GKNPTs made an alternative development of the launch vehicles that they wanted to see in Roscosmos. The center proposed the development of the Angara-A5 launch vehicle in the Angara-A5В, which provides for the use of universal rocket modules (URM) with existing single-chamber RD-193 engines on oxygen and kerosene at the first and second stages and replacing the third stage with oxygen - hydrogen.

“Such a rocket will be able to bring 35 – 37 tons into low orbit,” said Yuri Koptev. According to him, the cost of developing such a rocket will amount to 37 billion rubles, while a number of complex technical problems have to be solved, as well as to create an infrastructure at the cosmodrome for working with oxygen-hydrogen booster, including the launch complex on the Vostochny (Amur region). The head of the NTS argued that such a rocket could be created by 2022 year.

Such a recommendation — huge amounts of money will be spent on its implementation should an appropriate decision be made — should be implemented on a competitive basis, with the right and opportunity for all parties to state and prove their position. However, one wonders: recently in Roskosmos it has become the rule to hold contests without a contest - it is worth remembering the latest appointments. As one of the failed applicants for the high position of the head of one of the agency’s structures explained, the rocket specialist was advised to withdraw from the “contest” in which a person far from the industry had “won”.

Starting deadlock


For starters, we estimate for the money. For the Angara-A5B launches, it will be necessary to build a second launch complex at the Vostochny cosmodrome (the first in Plesetsk). But one more recommendation of the Roscosmos NTS is as follows: “... consider the possibilities of state financing of the rocket and space industry enterprises for scientific and technical reserves, promising technologies, main systems and units for creating a space rocket complex with a super-heavy launch vehicle for research of the Moon and Mars and other planets of the solar system. " So, the super-heavy carrier will still be, but later? And in the East will have to build another launch complex? How, then, with the money? After all, it is obvious that two complexes will cost much more than one. Therefore, many experts polled by "MIC" are unanimous that it is necessary to build only one launch complex at the East under a really promising carrier.


Photo: naked-science.ru


Immediately after the publication of the recommendations of the Roskosmos NTS, the Military-Industrial Courier communicated with a high-ranking source in the domestic space industry, which, as part of the discussion (no one has yet canceled it), criticized the decision: “The proposed adaptation of the Angara-A5B launch vehicle "For the manned and lunar programs, if implemented, would prove to be unreasonably expensive and would hardly meet the declared NTS intention to take into account the real possibilities of state financing."

According to the MIC source, “with this approach, expeditions into deep space turn into absurdity, since only to support the lunar landing mission in the 15-year period will be required about 40 launches of the Angara-A5B launch vehicle,” and this provided that it will be able to put the declared 35 tons into low orbit. No rocket-space industry can withstand such a load. It’s a road to nowhere, a dead end. ”

"For comparison: the implementation of a similar mission will require up to eight launches of 75-ton carriers for the aforementioned 15 cycle," added the interlocutor of the Military-Industrial Courier. - According to the calculations, three 75-ton launches mean the formation of a manned complex in orbit. This is once in 15 years. And five more launches to support these missions. ”

“Modification of A5B means that the rocket will use all the same five universal rocket modules that are operated in the existing version of the A5 carrier. Whatever they put “from above” doesn’t mean that they will enter 35 tons, ”the source believes. He referred to the experts, according to which the maximum carrying capacity for the Angara-A5 (“missiles of the 21st century” in Roscosmos terminology. - Approx. “MIC”) based on the mass ratio of the payload and carrier (2,5%, for comparison: the “missiles - carriers of the last century "in the terminology of Roskosmos" Zenit "and" Proton "it is 3,1%, in the RN" Soyuz "- 2,7%, in the RN" Energy "was 4,4%) - 25 tons. The improvement variant of the Angara-A5V contradicts the general trend in world rocket science, where it is being relied on to increase the carrying capacity of carriers, the interlocutor of the “MIC” noted. And he recalled: "By and large, the superheavy carrier with a carrying capacity of 70 – 80 tons is needed by Russia and the USA not only for deep space, but also to ensure national security, since only such a carrier guarantees at least parity in the fight for the information space.”

Then a press conference followed, at which the head of the Roscosmos NTS, Yury Koptev, tried to dot the i. Attention was drawn to the fact that the faces declared by the press service of Roskosmos, in particular the chief designer of RSC Energia Nikolay Bryukhanov, did not come to her.

Who are the judges?


At the press conference, several questions related to the NTS itself, because journalists were interested in who was accepting such recommendations. A word to Yury Koptev: “The NTS is representative enough. When we held the last meeting, we only have doctors of science more than 40 people. And it is not only representatives of the rocket and space industry. Sufficiently high representation of customers for space activities from the Ministry of Defense, Academy of Sciences. "

He noted that "the decisions of the NTS are advisory in nature, but since this is a kind of consolidated opinion of all the main participants in space activities, including the customer, they can be the basis for making executive and policy decisions."

The journalists, in turn, reminded the head of the NTS that just a year and a half ago, at a similar meeting, the head of Roscosmos, Oleg Ostapenko, declared that Angara was hopeless. Then no member of the NTS objected to him. “A year and a half has passed, and no one within these walls (the press conference was held in the Roskosmos building) argues that Angara has become promising,” the colleague ironically remarked. Koptev’s answer turned out to be the following: “I wasn’t here a year and a half ago” (he was appointed head of the NTS of Roskosmos in December 2014 of the year. - Note. “MIC”).

In any case, there is no clarity as to who personally accepted the recommendations from March 12. On the Roscosmos website, the NTS is missing. Maybe a military secret? The “extreme” report on the meeting of the Roscosmos NTS refers as much to August 25 as 2010. Then the NTS, chaired by Roskosmos head Anatoly Perminov (a saint for journalists in his openness!), Discussed the draft design of a new-generation space rocket complex “Rus” for the Vostochny space center, later closed by Vladimir Popovkin in favor of Angara again, although “ Russia "would be more competitive.

Compare point of view


The development of launch vehicles based on the development of heavy Angara-A5В 35 tons lifting capacity does not meet the needs of Russia, recommended by the Roscosmos Scientific and Technical Council of Roskosmos: “A high-level source in the Russian rocket and space industry said: low Earth orbit payloads of mass 16 – 18 tons (among them - the future manned spacecraft) and 75 tons. 35-ton media is unable to solve these problems. ”

By the way, the same Yuri Koptev at a press conference noted that in December last year, three of our cooperations - led by RSC Energia, led by Samara RCC Progress, and headed by GKNPC named after MV Khrunichev - presented their proposals for the vision of the further construction of super-heavy rockets. According to the speaker, they differed in technical solutions, slightly in characteristics, but on the whole it was about the same. “The commission, headed by Alexander Ivanov, First Deputy Head of the Russian Federal Space Agency, reviewed all this. She pointed out in her conclusions that the most promising is the variant proposed by RSC Energia, which is built on the intellectual reserve left over from the Energia launch vehicle and is focused on four-chamber RD-170 / 171 engines and restoring the production of Voronezh hydrogen RD engines “0120,” said the head of the NTS.

According to his version, after evaluating and comparing with what we actually have in terms of resources, a recommendation was issued to look for other options. Again, according to Yuri Koptev, the Khrunichev Center came up with such an alternative, who suggested entering the Angara-A5B as part of the development of the Angara line.

The question arises: was there any alternative at RSC Energia? Yes, the source of the "MIC" answers it: "And she was recognized as the best. But the NTS started saying that it was too expensive, although an objective assessment of this project has not yet been carried out. ” According to the expert, the alternative version of RSC Energia provided for the creation of an evolutionary medium-to-super-heavy carrier line on the basis of competitive X-Rum-800 / 170 171-toner engines. Moreover, this line would close all possible loads on the next 50 – 70 years and ensure Russia's leadership in the market.

As one of the main advantages of "Angara-A5V" Koptev calls the fact that it is all built from transported modules, that is, they can be transported by rail. While the design of any super-heavy carrier is built on the fact that the second stage will be created directly at the Vostochny cosmodrome, for which it is necessary to build a plant capable of making steps of dimension 7 – 8,5 meter (diameter). At the same time, the total cost of the program for creating a super-heavy carrier was estimated by Koptev at 700 billion rubles, and the possible implementation period is 2028 a year. However, as it turned out, the words about the “thick” second stage dealt specifically with the “Angara”, and not the super-heavy rocket, and he shifted this obvious shortcoming from a sick head to a healthy one. "Angara-A5V" - an illustration of a well-forgotten old. Because even in the 1999 – 2000 years, in the continuation of the development of the Angara system, a third-stage version was discussed. And in the heavy direction, the 50-ton rocket was considered, in which the second oxygen-hydrogen stage was offered with the exit for transport dimensions. This was recalled by the head of the NTS.

His opponent responds: "The RSC Energia variant allows solving the problems of removing up to 85 tons without hydrogen (an oxygen-hydrogen block. - Approx." MIC ") on four-meter-in-diameter modules." Recall: for "Angary-A5B" requires an oxygen-hydrogen block with the appropriate ground infrastructure. RSC Energia focuses on the resources that are available. There are plants in Russia - Progress RCC, Krasmash, in the end, the Khrunichev Center, whose infrastructure can be used to produce such missiles. The diameter, as suggested, is the 4,1 meter, ”emphasizes the interlocutor of the“ MIC ”.

He is confident that if you want to implement the entire line you can quickly and relatively inexpensively, since it will be made from what is already there. “First you need to make an energy-K 16-ton rocket for a new manned ship. Then comes the three-module "Energy-3K" - this is already 36 tons. If we put five modules in the package, then we get the 75-tonne "Energy-5K", all this without hydrogen, that is, there is no need to build anything extra. We put six modules - this is “Energy-6K”, which will be able to output 86 tons. Thus, it is possible to leave five years to the left (from the term for creating a super-heavy carrier called Koptev. - Approx. "MIC"), and hydrogen can be effectively mastered in the future as needed, ”the expert believes.

By the way, the problem of delivering a “thick” second stage to the cosmodrome could have been solved differently - to use sea transport. But this option would be realizable if, at the time, when choosing the location of the new cosmodrome, preference was given to Sovetskaya Gavan or Irkutsk.

The interlocutor of the "MIC" explained why it is necessary to hurry up and have time to make an extra-heavy carrier over the next five years, rather than postponing the matter indefinitely: "Americans are now actively working on creating an extra-heavy carrier, since it will allow them to be put into space in the fight for the information space. They are now making SLS carriers with the original 70 tonnes carrying capacity, ready for launch in the 2018. It is designed for special missions, and for deep space. By 2025, they plan to reach 130 tons. In order to participate equally in space exploration, including distant space, we need to have super-heavy media with a carrying capacity of at least 75 tons in the next five years, otherwise we will have to replant our programs with American funds. ”

Yuri Koptev himself called the problem areas of the development of Angara-A5B: “Our recommendations instructed that these issues should be worked out in a sufficiently serious cooperation deeper than the advance project. This is a question of forcing the 150 engine from 40 tons to 77 tons (Voronezh says it can be done). This is a question of a short-term boost of the 191 engine ... There are quite serious questions about the finalization of the launch infrastructure. " But, according to the head of the NTS, "it all fits into the plans and schedules, especially when it is understood that for the Angara we still intend to make a second launcher."

The source of the MIC answers: “RSC Energia’s proposal is based on engines that have competitive advantages, they already exist, and you don’t need to spend anything on them.” “Where did they get 700 billion rubles? - he wonders. “Even when it comes to super-heavy media with a load capacity of 130 tons, if you create it on the basis of the RD-170 / 171 engine, we can fit in much smaller amounts and terms.”

Another proposal of the NTS is as follows: “To recommend Roskosmos to consider the possibility of including in the project of the FKP before 2025 work on the creation of rocket engines using liquefied natural gas for use in new space complexes, including with a reusable ultralight class launch vehicle”. “There is no need to abandon the work on the super-heavy carrier, and we issued a recommendation that today we should continue to develop the scientific and technical groundwork in terms of creating new materials, including even seeing some exotic things that the world is doing today. This is the development of an engine in which liquefied natural gas is used as fuel, that is, what Americans are studying today in this area, ”Koptev commented.

His opponent is against this: “The specific impulse of the engines on methane is about 380 seconds, and on kerosene - 375, that is, the difference in a fraction of a percent. Why should the garden fuss? Methane - liquefied natural gas. Its density is two times more than kerosene. Therefore, with identical volumes, fuel tanks with methane will be noticeably heavier, which multiplies some minor advantages by zero, and the system’s explosion hazard increases significantly. ”

“It is very beneficial for us to have kerosene at the bottom (in the first stage), it is cheap and clean,” the expert is sure. “Glushko (General Designer of Rocket Engines. - Approx.“ MIC ”), it all went through, analyzed and left us the best solutions.”

By the way, there was an inaccuracy in the words of Yuri Koptev. The RSC Energia version allegedly suggested using the RD-0120 engine. According to a number of experts, the restoration of its production is impossible because of the irretrievable loss of key technologies remaining “behind the hill”, which gave rise to criticism of this option. “But RSC Energia never counted on RD-0120. She staked on the Voronezh promising oxygen-hydrogen 40-ton RD-0124 engine. It appears on the 3 stage, and depending on the load, you can vary their number, ”said the interlocutor of the“ MIC ”.

The Military-Industrial Courier presented two different points of view on the problem: in which direction should Russia develop its launch vehicles. Outlines the arguments of both sides. In this case, the truth is hardly in the middle - it simply can not be there. And it must be determined in order for domestic launch vehicles to be competitive and to provide asymmetric responses to emerging global challenges, as required by the head of state.

What would you like to know more? Probably the following: how much has the personal staff of the NTS changed over the past year and a half? And was 12 March expressed at least one dissenting opinion, as is customary in the industry if there are dissent?

In any case, those who already very soon have to make the most important decisions should once again weigh the pros and cons. "MIC" in turn will try to present the reader with a point of view on the subject of discussion of the most authoritative specialists and veterans of the industry.

While the number was put on. Russian President Vladimir Putin has set the task of working on a super-heavy rocket. The launch of such a launch vehicle should be designed for the Vostochny space center. After listening to the head of Roskosmos, Igor Komarov, who reported on new projects related to Angara, including the heavy class, the head of state stressed: "It was heavy and so was envisaged, we must talk about a super-heavy rocket."
42 comments
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  1. +4
    April 15 2015 21: 48
    Let there be a start

    Ships start at dawn
    Thunder shakes the surrounding roads.
    From the earth in search of the earth
    From anxiety to future anxiety.
    We will build a staircase to the stars,
    We will go through the black cyclones
    From Smolensk sunny birches
    To the hazy distances of Oberon.
    Do not scream - the scream will not reach
    Do not write - mail does not reach.
    Drown long ways
    Where the new sun rises.
    We will build a staircase to the stars,
    We will go through the black cyclones
    From Smolensk sunny birches
    To the hazy distances of Oberon.
    No halt on the steep path
    Where a thunderstorm collapses with a thunderstorm.
    Goodbye. Concrete is melting.
    Starship becomes a star.
    We will build a staircase to the stars,
    We will go through the black cyclones
    From Smolensk sunny birches
    To the hazy distances of Oberon.
    1966
    1. sent-onere
      +1
      April 16 2015 00: 41
      Departmental squabble for budgetary money can bury any, even the best and most promising idea. There are no examples, even in the recent Soviet past ....
    2. sent-onere
      +3
      April 16 2015 00: 43
      Since the times of the USSR, the allocated funds for "space" have been squandered "cosmically" for other purposes, so the amounts requested are incredibly astronomical. Even the construction of the East showed that almost half of the funds are plundered and left to the side. When frequent audits and direct checks begin to be carried out, the "absorbed" amounts will decrease significantly. This is not why they put the heads of production programs, but close to the cuts of funds.
      1. +1
        April 16 2015 01: 44
        Over the past 15 years (or not only the last, or not only 15) it has become almost an axiom:
        - How to turn the construction of the century into the theft of the century?
        - The correct answer, of course, is to start it in Russia.
    3. 0
      April 16 2015 09: 47
      If humanity did not spend resources on the confrontation between each other, would have landed on Mars long ago!
      Although, on the other hand, competition is the engine of progress
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. +1
      April 16 2015 09: 49
      I still do not understand why no one is repeating the landing on the moon?
      I read an article on VO that the landing would not be earlier than 2025, although did the Americans land a long time ago, or didn’t they land after all?)))
  2. -15
    April 15 2015 21: 51
    Do you need a super-heavy rocket and for what purposes? Will the country pull economically? As Krolikov said - mom, cabbage is good, but there should be meat snacks at home. The moon and Mars are just lovely, but you need to balance the need to visit these sites and the availability of financial opportunities. "Buran" and "Energia" have made and the result is known. Billions are not thrown away by the wind.
    1. +9
      April 15 2015 22: 45
      Quote: t118an
      "Buran" and "Energia" have made and the result is known. Billions are not thrown away by the wind.
      Discarded because the project was not developed. But he did not receive development because perestroika did not even end in a shootout, as they joked in the late 80s, but in general the collapse of the country. Against this background, the stop of space projects is a minor episode.
    2. +2
      April 15 2015 23: 03
      Quote: t118an
      "Buran" and "Energia" have made and the result is known. Billions are not thrown away by the wind.

      But who told you this, Gorbachev himself, who killed the program, or kleptolibeoasts, who were taking over everything around. Then it was believed that everywhere sloth was thrown to the wind: in the construction of factories, and aircraft carriers, and space stations, and heavy transport aircraft, hydrofoils, aquaplanes, etc. Now we would be glad to resume, to get out of the experience - but where is it all lost?
      1. +2
        April 16 2015 02: 41
        But who told you this, Gorbachev himself, who killed the program, or kleptolibeoasts, who were taking over everything around. Then it was believed that everywhere sloth was thrown to the wind: in the construction of factories, and aircraft carriers, and space stations, and heavy transport aircraft, hydrofoils, aquaplanes, etc. Now we would be glad to resume, to get out of the experience - but where is it all lost?


        I won't say a good word about Gorby. But everything is more complicated, and the Energy was doomed.

        In a huge article in Pravda (year 88), one of the creators of this unique rocket shouted something like the following: "We are able to develop, create and launch a 100-ton platform into orbit, which will provide direct telephone communication for the entire country," to the outskirts. "But we need someone who will take over the production of ground vehicles. They are designed to be the size of a pack of cigarettes. But we cannot produce them according to the profile and cannot afford it. And without them our platform loses its meaning."

        Voice in the wilderness.

        The rocket is not an end in itself. Need a load. Promising satellites are getting smaller. Prospective orbital stations are in the fog. Moreover, manned flights "to other worlds."

        Until the parties "Robots" and "Cosmonauts" finally sort out the relationship, it is difficult to guess about the future.
    3. +2
      April 15 2015 23: 34
      Do we need a super-heavy rocket and for what purpose?

      With the current approach to space, it is not needed. As I understand it, the task of the Russian Federation at the moment is to maintain the orbital infrastructure (ISS, civilian satellites + for military purposes). Hence, in fact, a commercial solution - the heavy version of the Angara. The Americans' tasks extend deep into the solar system, since they have enough funds, for this they are developing a super-heavy rocket. However, in my opinion, it is necessary to have a design groundwork. It is clear that it is expensive, but otherwise you can really miss the train. It is not necessary to strive to rivet "Energy" in batches, but its project must be ready for implementation and further evolution.
      1. +1
        April 16 2015 07: 10
        Quote: Eugene-Eugene
        in my opinion, it is necessary to have a design basis.

        I agree with you, but I will clarify a little - you also need a production reserve, with at least a small but real production. We have (may have been) the design groundwork in the form of "Energy", but the possibility of production has been lost.
  3. Dudu
    +1
    April 15 2015 21: 55
    One thing is clear - there is a struggle for power in the space business. So that someone who is not profitable does not get state funding, we decided to leave everything as before. But when someone gets their reins in their hands, then they will demand money. It seems so...
  4. Tribuns
    +12
    April 15 2015 22: 02
    What a pity that there is no Sergey Pavlovich Korolev who cares for the cause and fatherlandand instead, in Roskomos, people who are at odds for a budget pie and have created contention not because of better developments, but for self-interest for the sake of ...Well, at least the president said firmly, in a businesslike way: "Heavy was already foreseen, it should be a superheavy rocket."
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      April 15 2015 22: 34
      Quote: TribunS
      What a pity that there is no Sergey Pavlovich Korolev who cares for the cause and fatherland

      Under the Queen (during his tenure) a whole galaxy of rocket launchers and professionals was brought up. But perestroika and the 91 coup were conceived in order to destroy all this at the root. So why be surprised?
  5. +5
    April 15 2015 22: 11
    Rogozin was at Putin's reception and reported on the state of affairs at the Vostochny cosmodrome. At the same time he asked about the rocket ... to which Rogozin replied that the "Heavy" Angara should be launched in December this year.
    Putin noted that launching a heavy rocket is by itself and that it is laid down in the plans ... but how is work being done on an extra heavy rocket? Asked the GDP. The answer was this: “Everything is going according to plan! That is, a superheavy rocket will be in the near future.” hi
  6. +10
    April 15 2015 22: 29
    Once I expressed my thought and they stuck for it for me.
    I will repeat myself - "Russia needs a super-heavy carrier only with an eye to delivering to the territory of our opponents, the USA and other NATO members, charges of 10 megatons or more."
    And only in this way, as a citizen of Russia, I agree to the development and production thereof.
    The exploration of the Moon, Mars and other nearby space debris is an ABSOLUTE Utopia. Until mankind passed the crucible of World War III - there is nothing to do on the Moon and Mars! Their development requires the FULL consolidation of earthlings. Given the current situation on the mother planet, the attempts of ANY state or community of ANY states to carry out interplanetary expansion are doomed to failure.
    Such large-scale tasks can be solved ONLY after the elimination of intraterrestrial contradictions, because these tasks require the consolidation of the resources of the entire Earth.
    That's something like ...
    1. 0
      April 15 2015 22: 44
      +
      and not just somehow, but it will be right. And then they’re used to it, like what’s wrong, if something is not profitable for some, then right away
      Why did the NTS make such a decision, and without a competition, although there would be a lot of money at stake? Why was there no public discussion, which in theory should precede even recommendations?
      .
      One opinion - the security of the country and the world, there is a priority!
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      April 15 2015 22: 54
      A lot more is unknown. Why do some die from radiation, others on the side. Some after working in low Earth orbit are restored in a couple of months, others over the years. America drove the USSR in an arms race, and USSR America in a space race. Both of them were blown away for a while. Indeed, no one country will be able to pull deep space exploration.
    4. +4
      April 15 2015 23: 02
      Quote: ksv1973
      Until mankind passed the crucible of World War III - there is nothing to do on the Moon and Mars!

      "You just said something like that - I didn't understand .." (c)

      Ek you, my friend, brings .. The rest - like everything was written correctly what

      PS: Yes .. something tells me that if humanity, God forbid, still "will pass through the crucible" - the Moon and Mars will no longer be needed for it .. never, practically sad
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        April 15 2015 23: 25
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        Quote: ksv1973
        Until mankind passed the crucible of World War III - there is nothing to do on the Moon and Mars!

        "You just said something like that - I didn't understand .." (c)

        Ek you, my friend, brings .. The rest - like everything was written correctly what

        PS: Yes .. something tells me that if humanity, God forbid, still "will pass through the crucible" - the Moon and Mars will no longer be needed for it .. never, practically sad

        The sun will cool through 4-5 billion years. Humanity, in its more or less reasonable framework, has existed for about 10 thousand years.
        Further thought to develop?
        1. +1
          April 15 2015 23: 55
          Quote: ksv1973
          The sun will cool through 4-5 billion years. Humanity, in its more or less reasonable framework, has existed for about 10 thousand years.
          Further thought to develop?

          Yes, if it's possible feel

          I like to laugh, you know)
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            April 16 2015 00: 27
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            Quote: ksv1973
            The sun will cool through 4-5 billion years. Humanity, in its more or less reasonable framework, has existed for about 10 thousand years.
            Further thought to develop?

            Yes, if it's possible feel

            I like to laugh, you know)

            Think about the ratio of numbers - not in the PAST ratio, but in the Future. Just think about it ...
    5. -1
      April 16 2015 02: 02
      Do you understand how many minerals, minerals and valuable ores are there? Whoever first flies and snaps, that will be ahead of the rest! And there will never be earthly universal bliss. But is it necessary at all? I would be afraid of such things. After all, universal paradise and security can exist only in conditions of harsh totalitarianism. When a person will have a number and not a name, when he will only do what is permitted. This is a whole dystopia.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        April 16 2015 02: 18
        Quote: AlexDARK
        Do you understand how many minerals, minerals and valuable ores are there? Whoever first flies and snaps, that will be ahead of the rest!

        Do you understand how MUCH it costs to transport at least one ton of what is, hypothetically, there? Or transporting HERE at least one ton of equipment to extract from the fact that there is anything useful?
        Forget all the "science" fiction you are familiar with - from Wells to Hanlein. You are on Earth, my friend. And the worms that will devour your future corpse (and mine, by the way) are a more real future than some phantasmogoric illusions!
  7. +2
    April 15 2015 22: 31
    Tired of nomenclature, Putin said correctly:
    The head of state emphasized: “It’s heavy and so it was foreseen, it’s about a super-heavy rocket”
  8. ltshyi01
    +5
    April 15 2015 22: 39
    Quote: t118an
    Buran "and" Energia "have done and the result is known. Billions were thrown out not by the wind.

    Buran was a great development of its time! I still have a photo of the blizzard at launch at night and with the seal of the Baikonur Cosmodrome. K is also to blame for the fact that the USSR has spilled!
    1. +4
      April 15 2015 22: 48
      Quote: ltshyi01
      that the USSR has spilled!

      The human and spiritual bonds that still live in the peoples of the USSR have still not collapsed, but still ruined and ruined.
      Quote: ltshyi01
      K is also to blame

      Traitors to the Motherland!
  9. +2
    April 15 2015 22: 43
    After hearing the head of Roscosmos Igor Komarov, who reported on new projects related to the Angara, including the heavy class, The head of state emphasized: “It’s heavy and so it was foreseen, it’s about a super-heavy rocket”.
    Well, at least there is a hope that the President will be consistent in this matter, and will force the "sawers" of the space budget to moderate their appetites .. otherwise, our "partnership" with the amerikosi will indeed DROP to a "new level".
  10. -2
    April 15 2015 22: 45
    Quote: Talker
    Quote: t118an
    Do we need a super-heavy rocket and for what purpose?

    Otherwise they will trample us. How trampled with a computer!
    Quote: t118an
    As Krolikov said - mother, cabbage is good, but meat snacks should also be at home.

    Now there are many varieties of sausages in stores! And it’s easy to buy jeans, And a car on credit ... Only here people remember about the USSR, and the choice is not towards sausages!

    Quote: t118an
    "Buran" and "Energia" have made and the result is known. Billions are not thrown away by the wind.


    They were thrown to the wind, because those who wanted sausages came to power, and why do they need work with Buranas and Energies? They also need sausages. So it turned out that the wind. And an intelligent ruler would now have a monopoly on access to space! Only through the cosmodromes of the USSR!

    so I didn't want the "heavy rocket" to suffer the fate of "Buran" and "Energia" ...
    1. +3
      April 15 2015 22: 49
      Quote: t118an
      so I didn't want the "heavy rocket" to suffer the fate of "Buran" and "Energia" ...

      Well, for now, if Mr. Koptev realizes his plans, such a fate will eventually befall Angara. And Russia will lose several years in the creation of a super-heavy launch vehicle ..
  11. +1
    April 15 2015 22: 48
    Yeah, and we all joked about the trampoline - as if by the very years after 10 from the catapult to Mars did not fly.
    1. 0
      April 16 2015 00: 10
      You are exaggerating, optimistic, from a slingshot with such figures. More evidence of the failure of the leaders of the space program of Russia, the government ... And in general the thieves' system, when incompetent grief leaders lead the country into a dead end. Only a change in the social system will allow us to embark on the road to recovery and development. Otherwise, the collapse of the country will be inevitable!
  12. Svetlanache
    +2
    April 15 2015 22: 50
    I wish the Investigative Committee made a voyage with searches of governor estates ...
    During the investigative measures, the proceeds would be enough for a heavy and superheavy rocket, which inherits from the class.
  13. +4
    April 15 2015 23: 03
    Quote: Author
    His opponent is also against it: “The specific impulse for engines on methane is about 380 seconds, and on kerosene - 375, that is, a difference in the percentage share. For what reason to fence the garden? Methane is a liquefied natural gas. Its density is twice that of kerosene. Therefore, with the same volumes, methane fuel tanks will be noticeably heavier, which multiplies minor advantages by zero, while the explosiveness of the system increases significantly. ”

    ?
    softened

    1.METHANE: gas (0 ° C) Density 0,7168 kg / m³; liquid (−164,6 ° C) 415 kg / m³
    KEROSIN: liquid Density 0,78 — 0,85 g / cm³ (at 20 ° C)
    Ash stump was there

    Research and Production Enterprise Energomash is working on a new rocket engine for liquefied methane, for use in the process of implementing the project of reusable space systems, the development of which is carried out by the Khrunichev Center.
    2. In fact, the LARGER the DENSITY of the TC, the lower (with other things being equal, power, calorific value), THERE, THE PH TANK TANKS WILL BE Lighter, because the tank of the trellis is LESS (in geometric dimensions)

    3. Methane is cheap and it's a fig (dehydrate and clean).

    The methane content in natural gas ranges from 75 to 90% by volume depending on the field. From the main gas pipeline, a selection is taken to a typical mini-plant for the production of liquid 98% methane with a capacity of 1,5t / h. You can get liquid methane and 99,5% sample, but its cost will be slightly more expensive. On long-term engine tests at the NRC RCP it was shown that 98% liquid methane is suitable for rocket fuel.

    But kerosene .... ONLY a specific grade of oil is used for the launch vehicle: such oil is extracted ONLY at the Troitsko-Anastasievskoye field in the Krasnodar Territory, however, its reserves are not unlimited, and the search for an alternative is extremely important.

    4. Methane is undoubtedly BETTER the cooling capacity of the liquid propellant rocket engine, which directly opens the way to reusability (or cheaper one-time)

    5. In the fire paths of a methane rocket engine, during the fire tests, there is no solid phase. Therefore, repeated tests do not require treatment of fuel cavities.

    All supply engines undergo fire control tests without any subsequent bulkhead.

    6. LRE on methane (+ О2) with the same basic parameters (thrust, specific impulse) have less stressed parameters (by pressure in the combustion chamber and pressure at the outlet of the pumps)than LRE working on oxygen-kerosene.

    7. Replacing Proton-M LV with methane version of LV removes all disagreements with Kazakhstan on the use of the Baikonur cosmodrome. It opens up opportunities for joint cooperation with Kazakhstan for many years to come, regardless of the creation of the Russian Vostochny spaceport.
    1. +1
      April 16 2015 07: 35
      It also caught my eye, I want to add to the above, methane is also a fairly budgetary experience gained in hydrogen, everything is quite similar and we will gain experience and technology.
  14. 0
    April 15 2015 23: 39
    I do not understand:
    “To solve promising tasks, we need carriers capable of putting payloads weighing 16–18 tons (among them the future manned spacecraft) and 75 tons into low Earth orbit. The 35-ton carrier is unable to solve these problems. "
    What prevents to make another layout? For example, from three Hangars A3, get one by combining 3 central URMs and 2 more each, to get Hangar A9 ... A carrier for 45 tons of payload, at least. You can add 3 more URMs to reach 75 tons with new fuel ...
    1. +2
      April 16 2015 00: 13
      If you add 100 hares, you won’t get a bull.
  15. 0
    April 16 2015 00: 06
    A crook, a petty and vile crook!
  16. 0
    April 16 2015 00: 24
    Russia is famous for its ability to bury beautiful projects. Apparently, the dream of the Russian Mars rover will remain a dream. I'm already tired of being upset.
  17. +1
    April 16 2015 00: 35
    With a super-heavy rocket, all the time a marmot turns out that day - H1 was destroyed before it was supposed to fly. Glushko broke through the destruction of this project for the sake of building his "Energy". But she, too, turned out to be ultimately unlucky.
    Now again all the time there are some obstacles to the birth of another superheavy rocket.
  18. sent-onere
    -1
    April 16 2015 00: 45
    The calls to forcefully create superheavy launch vehicles come from an exaggerated view of the US’s readiness to create such and the reality of these US plans. Further, Russia is now unable to organizationally and technically solve such a problem, especially in a short time. This is independent of the economy. The hangar is real and sufficient to solve the problems of national security. Otherwise, we will have another 25 years of collapse of the industry. To solve large-scale tasks, international cooperation is necessary. So far, only China has ambitious plans. Neither Europe nor Japan, with powerful launch vehicles, are in no hurry to invest resources in grandiose projects. So you need to proceed from reality and understand the complete impossibility with a destroyed industry to build gigantic plans that will turn into dangerous projection and lead to disaster. The best argument is torment with the East, which give birth for so many years, even without a project and estimates. In any case, the builders write that they could not start work: they did not have documentation. For all dual-use satellites and purely military hangars, it’s enough, as well as for a manned ship, which still needs to be done. We are hardly interested in launching combat ACS into orbit, not to mention the fact that this is prohibited by international treaties. Finally, with all the importance of the launch vehicle, one should not forget about the enormous role of the infrastructure of information and software, management and navigation, which also does not tolerate fuss and is a difficult task. And when analyzing American plans, you need to carefully separate advertising from real plans.
  19. 0
    April 16 2015 00: 55
    No matter how the old story repeats itself, Tupolev ... and everyone else. I hope D. Rogozin will be able to consider where Koptev’s ambitions extend and where the real solution to the problem lies. A very expensive error will arise if a wrong decision is made, in many ways it’s expensive.
  20. 0
    April 16 2015 01: 04
    In the construction of a superheavy rocket, the United States is healthy bypassing us, and we still do not have a clear program of what kind of rocket is needed, why, where we will fly, when we fly, the cost of projects is carried with the Hangar as a decommissioned shell.
  21. +2
    April 16 2015 01: 13
    Work on an extra-heavy rocket needs to be continued, but without fanaticism. If the mattresses create it early, it’s okay, the main thing is that we will have it too, albeit later. The first is always more difficult; he collects all the rakes and collects the entire web. You need to work according to your economic potential, somewhere accelerating, somewhere slowly. The main thing is to move towards the goal, and not go to extremes. We clearly understand - we need a rocket - we are working! Gentlemen and comrades!
  22. -5
    April 16 2015 01: 43
    The hangar is the most effective that is now being created for the Russian space industry. And all this hype around the super-heavy carrier, a completely understandable activity of knocking out budget funds by developers.
    And, by the way, at the expense of the "Energy - Buran" system. It was not the collapse of the USSR and not the traitors to the Motherland who were to blame for the fact that the project was frozen. This project was doomed already at the construction stage, because it turned out to be ineffective and at that time simply unnecessary.
  23. +1
    April 16 2015 03: 14
    Yeah, everything that was in the USSR turned out to be unnecessary and harmful: free education, medicine, and so on and so forth, and most importantly, which people had in abundance. Yes, and all the same Victory in the furnace?
  24. 0
    April 16 2015 04: 43
    The whole insanity of this story, and any in our country, that people far from specialization come to power, but who perfectly own the principle of "cutting" money. Everything was in one hands with S.P. Queen, therefore the breakthrough was unambiguous.
  25. +1
    April 16 2015 10: 15
    Quote: AlexDARK
    universal paradise and security can only exist in conditions of harsh totalitarianism. When a person will have a number and not a name, when he will only do what is permitted.

    Can you justify this nonsense?)))
  26. 0
    April 16 2015 12: 51
    we have only doctors of sciences more than 40 people. And these are not only representatives of the rocket and space industry. A sufficiently high representation of customers in space activities from the Ministry of Defense, Academy of Sciences

    Who are these pillars of Russian science, who support any, even directly opposite opinions of their superiors for the sake of their personal careers, where do they work, who and where brought them up so "flexible"? I am sure that the overwhelming majority of them are from the very "Strategic Missile Forces" academies, which are now spending all their efforts on only one thing, to prevent the "destruction of the scientific school" and to prevent the removal of their vapors from Moscow beyond the Moscow Ring Road. As you know, there is no life beyond the Moscow Ring Road, all "science" and "schools" will immediately disappear, because doctors of sciences travel far, and they don't want to lose state apartments in Moscow, they will rather lose science. These are our "academies" with "academicians" and "scientific schools".
  27. 0
    April 16 2015 16: 59
    The article is crafty. In it, the version of the Angara A5B rocket was unfairly ditched, but about the Angara A7 project, which, by the way, depending on the modification, can be either with the existing oxygen-kerosene third stage, or with a promising oxygen-hydrogen one. The author himself admits that today super-heavy launch vehicles are needed only for manned flights to the Moon or Mars, but then says that Russia must urgently have time to create them for some kind of competition and struggle for "information space". Some kind of bullshit. When the air smelled of war, and "partners" both from outside and from within provoke a financial crisis in Russia, the author's mysterious unnamed source urgently wanted to fly to the Moon and Mars to build "information space" and competition there. Apparently with the expectation of sending tourists there.