Military Review

“On a country without statehood, revenge and a new national idea of ​​Ukrainians.” - Answer to Zakhar Prilepin

37
For several days, I have bookmarked an article by Zakhar Prilepin "On a country without statehood, revenge and a new national idea of ​​Ukrainians". I really do not want to object to him. I do not want, but it is necessary.


“On a country without statehood, revenge and a new national idea of ​​Ukrainians.” - Answer to Zakhar Prilepin


Focus on the key points.

Prilepin: It is foolish to underestimate: the Ukrainian people, or a serious part of the Ukrainian people, are experiencing what is called a “passionary explosion”. Ukraine, roughly speaking, rushing.
Rogers: There is no reason to say that. So it is possible to agree that in all countries where color revolutions are organized, passionate explosions. After all, they are also "rushing." Moreover, football fans are rushing after each match, and drug addicts after each dose. But this does not make them passionaries.

Prilepin: And the main reason is not at all the notorious desire for Europe, for civilized values, comfort and diverse freedom. They felt that they were not just passionately eager, but finally they could defeat the notorious “elder brother” and designate themselves as “elder brother”.
Rogers: Nothing new. We have this bug, characteristic of the so-called "Svidomo" PART of the population, has long been known. It is called "Menshovarty."

Prilepin: At least in the face of New Russia.
Rogers: And there is something else. Here the hatred of those who broke off with the "European choice", to those who initially understood that it was a dummy and a "crap."

Prilepin: Then the age-old dream will come true: they will look at this ugly, huge, difficult formation from top to bottom. And, perhaps, they will even contribute to the disintegration of this vile state, which has appropriated their fame, their statehood, their culture for a thousand years, and what else they thought up for themselves in boiling semi-delirium.
Rogers: There certainly are. But there have never been more 1-3% (the maximum cumulative result of all nationalist parties in any election). Propaganda may raise this percentage slightly among suggestive citizens, but reality cools.

Prilepin: For the sake of such a thing, you can donate to many, many people.
Rogers: 5 hryvnia on SMS in favor of the army. But their agenda is not enough.

Prilepin: A country that never had its own statehood, from mythologized to hilarious absurdity history- as a matter of fact, it is precisely today that it regains its coveted sovereignty, creates its newest mythology.
Rogers: She drains sovereignty. In all key posts - Georgians from among the American puppet. And no one objects. What the hell is a “passion explosion”?

Prilepin: Ukrainians feel themselves ancient Greeks, they often behave almost like Russians did in the most terrible moments of our history.
Rogers: And there are examples? I have been following the year most attentively, including from the inside - and I do not see anything at all. Every time when maydanutym gave the slightest resistance - they fled, loudly clucking "and for us scho?".

Prilepin: All these four, or six, or eight Russian-Ukrainian wars, which they zealously teach in schools and universities and about which they do not know only in Russia (and in the rest of the world too), should be crowned today with a decisive battle.
Rogers: Bebik's creativity will be discussed? Seriously?

Prilepin: Their rates are not just high - they are absolute: Ukraine either must be born or the birth will not take place.
Rogers: Everything, miscarriage. A typical “chimera” was born (strictly according to Gumilev), and the chimeras, though they can be destructive, are not viable.

Prilepin: Therefore, the feelings of the mass behavior of independent Ukrainians sometimes want to be described in terms of medical.
Rogers: Mass hysteria was characteristic of the Third Reich, nothing new.

Prilepin: Sometimes it happens: a man is covered with unprecedented rage, when he stops feeling fear, pain, fatigue - and becomes unstoppable for a while.
Rogers: Not once with dill. Usually it is enough one flew upside down to the "nadlyudyna" turned into a howling and groaning creature. "I hear you through cotton" (c)

Prilepin: The blissful dullness of sensuality is so great there that, you see, they will even perceive the loss of the Crimea and in one form or another the alienation of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions as a victory: so what, they say, is only six, or eight, or how many percent of our territory is there, and you wanted to capture Kiev, and not capture, la la la.
Rogers: Extreme inadequacy is not a sign of drive.

Prilepin: As a result, they will declare with a clear eye that they, too, almost won the ninth Russian-Ukrainian war. They defended their independence in the fight against a terrible enemy.
Rogers: I advise you to watch the comedy "Crusaders of the cosmos." There are also a couple of such instances.

Prilepin: There is no and no rational way out of this situation and is not expected.
Rogers: "Cold, Hunger, Hyperococcus" (s)

Prilepin: It’s only our progressive leaders who quiver about the fact that in Russia there is a terrible “patriotic frenzy” and tomorrow fascism will come here, pogroms and funnels will go to Jean-Jacques to catch the clientele at the exit.
Rogers: Yes, Russian liberals and Ukrainian Nazis are like identical twins. And their roots also grow from one place - from Langley.

Prilepin: Patriotic rise in Ukraine in relation to ours (and even to Novorossky) by ten points, per thousand decibels and two thousand watts more powerful.
Rogers: What does patriotism mean? This phenomenon is called "snapping." A patriot is ready to sacrifice himself for the sake of the Motherland, and here he is ready to kill others for the image of patriots. The difference is fundamental.

Prilepin: They make ten times more for each of our humanitarian supplies, piggy banks for fees on the Armed Forces of Ukraine are in each store, at each post office and are filled every hour.
Rogers: They stand, but the boxes are empty. Plus, most of the "volunteers" stupidly profit on this topic.

Prilepin: For each volunteer, there are ten good fellows of Mr. Yarosh, who, as we see, is not going to stop the war at all.
Rogers: Where did this statistics come from? Mobilization failed, even 20% of the plan can not recruit, what the hell are volunteers? Most of the bad ones are already boiled in boilers.

Prilepin: For each Ostap, Andriy has his own, and dad Taras is not visible at all.
Rogers: Each of Andriy will have his own "kulyavlob".

Prilepin: For each Motorola there are their own “field commanders”, even if they are not so lucky, but they can always tell themselves that when taking the airport there were losses: 1 cyborg to 10 quilted jackets, and calm down on this uncomplicated lie, cyborgs still invincible, in vain, that no one in Ukraine knows how many cyborgs they’ve already buried, and most importantly, they don’t want to know.
Rogers: Is that what happens? If I write now that yesterday I took New York and stormed London, then I am not a delirium psycho, but a passionary actor? Reality rules!

Prilepin: And the Ukrainian women? During this year, in the open spaces of the Network, I met hundreds and hundreds of belligerent Kievans and Odessa women with a higher education, thirsting for someone else's death, deeply adults, more than decent-looking - well-known journalists, singers and TV presenters say out loud there that in Russia they dare not say anything one their local colleague. Against this background, all the feminist tales that if there were women at the head of states, there would have been no wars, it would seem like a monstrous nonsense, monstrous.
Rogers: Women in general are more cruel by nature. This is what any normal psychologist will tell you.

Prilepin: And, most importantly, there is not just courage, but a certain frenzy of the Ukrainian authorities.
Rogers: What is courage? To send thousands of cannon fodder for slaughter, blindly following the instructions of the American curators - courage is not necessary. Courage would be if someone sent these curators or interrupted them altogether. And so it is just cowardice and lack of will.

Prilepin: To put it bluntly, the leaders of Ukraine were not the February Interim Government of 17, but the true Bolsheviks, even though they were felting Lenin all over the country: their Leninist grip for power was exactly that.
Rogers: Nothing to do. The Bolsheviks won, the Bolsheviks had plans for the development of the country, the Bolsheviks tore the country from outside influence, and did not fall under any foreigners.

Prilepin: Remove at least a hundred reports that men and women from villages and villages of Ukraine are fleeing to Europe and Russia away from military commissars en masse - they will still collect their 50 thousands of new troops.
Rogers: And half of them will run away at the first opportunity — either home, or “just one moment”.

Prilepin: And it will be, yes, undefiled youths - but this, we recognize, of the same breed of youths as the Russian conscripts in any of our war.
Rogers: No, we do not recognize.

Prilepin: Actually, they are Russians. Were
Rogers: Yes, they were. Now this mankurt, kinship not knowing. Janissaries. Or do you also call the Janissaries Russians?

Prilepin: Therefore, a Ukrainian soldier, as we saw at the airport and see under Debaltseve, fights even when a quarter of his unit is slaughtered, and then half, and then two thirds. He fights when he has no food, no connection, and when all the officers turned out to be fools, while others also fled.
Rogers: We are in some different realities. Watch Ukrainian media is bad, you fall under the suggestion.

Prilepin: These are the children and grandchildren of the same heroes and fearless soldiers - their direct descendants.
Rogers: Children by blood, but not by spirit. Those who refused to celebrate the Victory Day, the writers “detonated” as something mocking, screaming “Heroic Glory” - what do they have in common with Soviet soldiers? Nothing!

Prilepin: Not only that, there were no less heroes among Bandera, otherwise you would explain that the strongest army in the world — the Soviet, post-war, Japanese army simply swept away, and for two years at least Bandera caught at least in the forests of Zapadena to end.
Rogers: That's exactly what I caught. The Japanese fought openly, and these were hiding in caches like rats. The Elusive Joe. By the way, the army did not fight with them, they were caught by the MGB as ordinary criminals.

Prilepin: And there is much more motivation for this mirror image - the militiamen need only freedom, and their opponent needs revenge in the entire history of Ukraine right away, for the whole!
Rogers: On the contrary, these are ukrovoyaki fighting over abstractions such as “single Ukraine” or “European values”, while among the militia there is a motivation in the form of the need for retaliation for the murdered women and children.

Prilepin: And it doesn’t matter what they did in this story there and how many extra centuries they attributed.
Rogers: It is important.

Total: Writers tend to embellish and exaggerate, analysts tend to operate with cold facts. There is no “passion explosion” in Ukraine. Can you imagine that during the Great Patriotic War one of the generals wrote in the newspapers or spoke on the radio “The Command Threw Us”? Or refused to execute the order? Or declared that he would create an alternative general staff, like Yarosh? Or rallied on Red Square due to the fact that they lack body armor and toilet paper?

During the Great Patriotic War there were long lines at the military registration and enlistment offices, and here mobilization was broken, and hundreds of thousands of “invaders” flee into the country to escape from the summons. In the Soviet Union it was “Raykom closed. All went to the front. And then the deputies adopt a law prohibiting the issuance of their agenda.
During the Great Patriotic War for the "samostrel" was given to the penal battalion or shot. And Yarosh and Semenchenko do not climb out of the hospital with their "injuries of soft tissues".

Or you can imagine Levitan to declare “From the Soviet Information Bureau. There is no loss? If "during the heavy and long battles we left the city N-ck", then they said so. The harsh and often unpleasant truth.

Or can you imagine that any analogue of Kolomoisky in 1942, with impunity, seized a refinery in Baku and drained all the process oil, selling recycled gasoline to the left? Or created a private army, which, instead of being sent to the front, would be engaged in robbery of food warehouses? Hardly.

Yes, these morons constantly shouting that they will take Moscow, Kuban and Vladivostok. Baboons, sitting on a tree, also yell at a passing lion, and even throw branches at it. But the direction to Moscow is free, there is no front! And none of them with their battalions of looters and raiders did not go, like Sirko, to Moscow. Because they are swindlers and posers who are interested in the looting of defenseless and comfortable chair in the Rada, and not real fighting. This is NOT the behavior of passionaries, this is the behavior of small jackals who, at the sight of a bear, will scatter with a scream and howling.

Therefore, as Stanislavsky said, "I do not believe."
Author:
Originator:
http://alexandr-rogers.livejournal.com/332488.html
37 comments
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  1. parafoiler
    parafoiler 21 February 2015 06: 04
    +12
    Indeed: "I do not believe ..." Interesting dialogues and conclusions ...
    1. nvv
      nvv 21 February 2015 06: 29
      +2
      Quote: parafoiler
      Indeed: "I do not believe ..." Interesting dialogues and conclusions ...

      And I don’t believe both of them, they didn’t even close indicate the true reason, events taking place in Ukraine.
      Although Prilepin the author of "Letter to Comrade Stalin" could have indicated it.
      But to see the gut is thin.
      1. Hronyaka
        Hronyaka 21 February 2015 12: 22
        +4
        Lev Gumilyov needs to be studied, but it is impossible to misinterpret. And dill to passionaries is as far away as a bug to the sun. Passionaries do not flee the country en masse; passionaries are not inherent in slavish behavior. Any Svidomo dill is a slave to its delusions. You look what these TV ari are doing in Artyomovsk, armed people still continue to behave not like wars, but a bunch of exploded slave criminals ...
        1. Sandov
          Sandov 21 February 2015 21: 04
          +2
          Quote: Hronyaka
          Lev Gumilyov needs to be studied, but it is impossible to misinterpret. And dill to passionaries is as far away as a bug to the sun. Passionaries do not flee the country en masse; passionaries are not inherent in slavish behavior. Any Svidomo dill is a slave to its delusions. You look what these TV ari are doing in Artyomovsk, armed people still continue to behave not like wars, but a bunch of exploded slave criminals ...

          Rogers looks much more adequate than Prilepin. By and large, if the bet was placed not on banderlogs, but on someone else. Perhaps it would have come out according to Prilepin, but the fascist ideology cannot be cement cementing the state. So all this krajina was exhausted. New Russia carries this passionarity in itself, this project may turn out to be viable if it is not merged both in our country and in the west.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 22 February 2015 23: 58
        0
        And I don’t believe both of them, they didn’t even close indicate the true reason, events taking place in Ukraine.
        Rogers pial is not about "true reasons", but about the fact that one should not dream of a dream, inventing events and motives, but open one's eyes to real history and real events ...
  2. domokl
    domokl 21 February 2015 06: 12
    +15
    I often argue with Rogers. But here is a huge plus.
    Everything is right to fear .. it is fear ... not the fear of death, but the fear that normal people will have to live with these Svidomo ... They will have to fight for a long and bloody ...
    1. andj61
      andj61 21 February 2015 09: 10
      +5
      I agree completely! Bravo, Rogers!
      Prilepin: Their rates are not just high - they are absolute: Ukraine either must be born or the birth will not take place.

      It seems that there was no pregnancy, but only talk about her.

      Rogers: Everything, miscarriage. A typical “chimera” was born (strictly according to Gumilev), and the chimeras, though they can be destructive, are not viable.

      Gumilyov explained temporary, unviable for historically long time, national and national-state formations by the fact that they are chimeras, but even according to Gumilyov, nonviable chimeras (Khazar Khaganate, for example) have existed for centuries. In this case, the chimera, more likely, has not yet formed, but only the prerequisites for its occurrence are created.
      I read it with great pleasure. A definite plus!
    2. Corsair
      Corsair 21 February 2015 09: 32
      +2
      Myths and legends of decaying Ukraine

      Pretty amusing material about the history of Ukraine (a picture about the distribution of Russian-speaking users of the social network Vkontakte, from there).

      I suggest viewing: http://www.vestifinance.ru/articles/53277
      1. andj61
        andj61 21 February 2015 09: 42
        +1
        Quote: Corsair
        I suggest viewing: http://www.vestifinance.ru/articles/53277

        Thanks for the link - a very interesting article, a lot of information in one place.
      2. rodevaan
        rodevaan 22 February 2015 15: 06
        0
        Quote: Corsair
        http://www.vestifinance.ru/articles/53277


        - Laughter is a laugh, but this idiotic nonsense is hammered into the heads of the population every day, and is generously paid and sponsored by our gofno-"partners" from overseas! It takes tons of green papers to mortify the brain, and sooner or later people there will SEVERELY think that this stuff is the real truth!
        We must fight this western rubbish.
  3. Neophyte
    Neophyte 21 February 2015 06: 28
    +8
    Finally! Thanks, Alexander for a worthy answer! Opus Prilepina called
    ambiguous conclusions about the "brotherly people"? Well said about
    former Russian mankurts, and if, harder, then the Russians who have become ossified!
    And it is hard to believe that Ukrainians will ever wake up and say to themselves: what have we done? The possible existence of this state is a repetition of the path
    Poland (the former owner of the Ukrainians), the eternal enemy of Russia!
    1. rodevaan
      rodevaan 21 February 2015 08: 30
      +2
      Duck Russia's most fierce enemies are not the Anglo-Saxons, the Fritzes and the rest of Geyrop. The most fierce Russophobes are their own "Russian" apostates, Vlasovites and traitors. It is they who make up the bulk of the down-and-out, cave-like Russophobes in Ukraine. And there are Svidomo galitsaev on the fingers of one hand of a disabled person.
  4. 3axap
    3axap 21 February 2015 06: 41
    +13
    Here's the truth, very interesting questions and answers. And the more we talk about this, the more chances not to create this in our country. Very often, topics and disputes, I transfer to my team to continue the dispute. Having been a subscriber of the Military Review for almost a year, Since the beginning of hostilities in Donbas, I imperceptibly for myself, and even for them, have drawn the whole team into the part of the "Russian Spring". The entire team, as far as possible, takes part in helping the LPR. The guys themselves often carry help to Lugansk and personally see what the war is doing. That war with their people is a HORROR. And it seems to me that if someone in my country tries to repeat this, HIM WILL NOT WORK. hi
  5. Andrea
    Andrea 21 February 2015 06: 47
    +4
    Good controversy, in the case, in places, not in the eyebrow!
  6. Geophizik
    Geophizik 21 February 2015 06: 55
    +3
    Once again, Alexander gave a journalist master class. Thank you for your ability to crystal clear honestly convince and make the truth really tangible and tangible.
    1. gorge1945
      gorge1945 21 February 2015 07: 17
      +1
      Talk smart with an idiot.
  7. skifd
    skifd 21 February 2015 07: 11
    0
    Thanks to Alexander. Everything "on the shelves". And then there are a lot of members of the forum too seriously "libel" Prilepin took.
    1. andj61
      andj61 21 February 2015 09: 14
      +3
      Quote: skifd
      Thanks to Alexander. Everything "on the shelves". And then there are a lot of members of the forum too seriously "libel" Prilepin took.

      They did not accept it, but seriously thought about it. And it’s not worth while Prilepin’s article is perceived as a libel. Rather, it is a warning. Yes, there are many exaggerations, I agree. But forewarned, means armed.
      Besides, there would have been no article by Prilepin — there would have been no brilliant answer from Rogers!
  8. victorsh
    victorsh 21 February 2015 07: 16
    -1
    Or created a private army, which instead of sending to the front would be engaged in the robbery of food depots?
    Unfortunately, in the history of the USSR during the Second World War, there was such an event. Remember the army of Anders. 60 thousand active bayonets plus families. And these s-and refused to go to war on the western front. And the "tyrant" Stalin, instead of shooting them, released them with weapons to Iran.
  9. oracul
    oracul 21 February 2015 07: 54
    +9
    A strange feeling of emptiness. It turns out a conversation about nothing. One talented person shared his attitude, another talented did not agree with him. One generalized, hyperbolized, and the second reduced estimates to particulars. Friends are comrades! the world is multidimensional and diverse. And this is actually his charm and his problems. I hope that a general discussion will allow us to find the truth, and, as you know, it is in the middle.
    1. Normal
      Normal 21 February 2015 10: 12
      +1
      Quote: oracul
      A strange feeling of emptiness. It turns out a conversation about nothing. One talented person shared his attitude, another talented did not agree with him. One generalized, hyperbolized, and the second reduced estimates to particulars.

      Absolutely.
      This paragraph is the best, most accurate statement about this dispute.

      Prilepin is a writer.
      It is possible to agree with him or not in particular, but in general he is right and this must be admitted, no matter how much we were encouraged by particulars.

      Rogers (in this case) is a propagandist on the topic of the day.
      Rogers' arguments are often in the "gee-s-s!" and "urya-i-i!" Instead of analyzing causes, it denies the effects on the basis that the effects of causes do not suit us.
      This would be correct if the Russian leadership had the determination to destroy both the consequences and the causes of what is happening in Ukraine. But this is not. There are assurances about the support of the idea of ​​food and non-stop, even federalization is already being kept quiet. This means that the crush that is in Svidomo and sympathizing with them is quite enough to continue the war. The West will help with money, and Russia with discounts on resources.
      So it turns out that Prilepin is right, but Rogers is not.

      PS
      In his unwillingness to admit the obvious, to deny that which does not suit Rogers one-on-one - Svidomo Ukrainians. This proves the truth of Prilepin that the Ukrainians are Russians, only adjusted for some southern navitaminism and activity, in contrast to the calm and slowness of the north-eastern Russians.
  10. rodevaan
    rodevaan 21 February 2015 08: 41
    +2
    Prilepin: To put it bluntly, the leaders of Ukraine were not the February Interim Government of 17, but the true Bolsheviks, even though they were felting Lenin all over the country: their Leninist grip for power was exactly that.
    Rogers: Nothing to do. The Bolsheviks won, the Bolsheviks had plans for the development of the country, the Bolsheviks tore the country from outside influence, and did not fall under any foreigners.

    “I totally agree with Rogers here!” Lenin and the Bolsheviks overthrew the weak and weak-willed tsar, the worthless interim government, and the toothless cabinet, which only gasped and gasped, looking at the Empire rapidly dying and plunging into uncontrollable chaos.
    But Lenin and the Bolsheviks were able to mobilize the whole people for a new life, gave the people ideals and a nationwide idea, rebuilt and built on the ruins of the empire a great power that kept the whole world for eggs! They had clear and concrete plans for the development of the country, drove out all Western and Eastern invaders, didn’t allow Russia / USSR to gobble up the world’s financial bandits, turned the lying and devastated territory into an industrialized power with world science, the best science and education in the world, the best sport in the world and the most powerful armed forces.
    These lice - the Novokhokhlyak pro-American slaves to Lenin and the Bolsheviks - as to the moon on crutches.
    1. 11111mail.ru
      11111mail.ru 21 February 2015 09: 06
      0
      Quote: rodevaan
      to Lenin and the Bolsheviks - as to the moon on crutches.

      Replace "Lenin" in your comment with Stalinthen he will be true.
      1. rodevaan
        rodevaan 22 February 2015 14: 52
        -1
        Quote: 11111mail.ru
        Quote: rodevaan
        to Lenin and the Bolsheviks - as to the moon on crutches.

        Replace "Lenin" in your comment with Stalinthen he will be true.


        - He is so true. It was Lenin who first began to massively bring to the people the ideas of socialism at that time, and not Stalin. Learn the story.
        1. 11111mail.ru
          11111mail.ru 22 February 2015 15: 36
          -1
          Quote: rodevaan
          It was Lenin who first began to massively bring to the people the ideas of socialism at that time, and not Stalin. Learn the story.

          They introduced, only not the ideas of socialism, but immediately communism, only "war communism", when food detachments took away bread from the peasants, and people from the "chosen people" took part in the division of it, Lev Davydovich, by the way, added his dad to this position ... Only for some reason, the people benefited from the communists raised an uprising against them in the Tambov region and Kronstadt, which is why the VIL sharply deflated and announced the NEP.
          Quote: rodevaan
          But Lenin and the Bolsheviks were able to mobilize the whole people for a new life, gave the people ideals and a national idea,

          1. And Lenin and the Bolsheviks were able to mobilize all the people for a new life, .. with an "iron hand"? There was such a slogan at the gate in Solovki.
          2 ...gave the people ideals... "Expropriation of the expropriators"? "And with the priest and the fist, the whole conversation: in the belly fat with a bayonet of the world-eater .."
          3. ... and nationwide idea To die for the ideas of Comrade Trotsky, bearing with bayonet the ideas of the World Revolution?
          Here I give a reference, there are fiery words of your idol, read, enjoy: http://www.1917.com/Marxism/Trotsky/BO/BO_No_66-67/BO-0585020.html
          1. rodevaan
            rodevaan 23 February 2015 09: 02
            0
            Quote: 11111mail.ru
            They introduced, only not the ideas of socialism, but immediately communism, only "war communism", when food detachments took away bread from the peasants, and people from the "chosen people" took part in the division of it, Lev Davydovich, by the way, added his dad to this position ... Only for some reason, the people benefited from the communists raised an uprising against them in the Tambov region and Kronstadt, which is why the VIL sharply deflated and announced the NEP.


            “Well, well, well, yes, of course,” we begin with the fact that your personal attitude to Lenin is your personal attitude. It is subjective and nothing more. And do not tear out of his works and actions only that which is beneficial to you or that justifies your attitude. And pass it off as the only correct explanation and interpretation. This is the first.

            Second - there is nothing to deviate from the topic and transfer arrows from a sore head to a healthy one! We talked about the fact that Lenin's ideas were able to mobilize the common masses in support of the Bolsheviks - and the fact that Lenin repeatedly emphasized the integral role of the simple proletariat in the revolutionary movement is an indisputable fact - For example, "The April Theses": "... Only a socialist revolution will save the country from an economic catastrophe, satisfy the fundamental demands of the people ... The proletariat can carry out a socialist revolution only in alliance with the rural poor, winning over the wavering middle strata of the peasantry to its side.". And through propaganda, Lenin brought these ideas to the people, to the troops, to the fluctuating elites. That is why the people followed him. And not only ordinary people, but also almost 300 tsarist officers and generals. That's what it was about, and not about some kind of Jewish dad, whom Trotsky was building somewhere out there.
            We were not talking about places for the elite, but about common ideas introduced into the masses. Catch the difference!
            And the third - no need to fool! The Tambov uprising and similar revolts against the Reds is, firstly, not a peasant uprising against Lenin's ideas, and this is far from all of Russia and not all of the people. Of course, there were uprisings against the Reds, because the country was in ruins, there was a war, and the Bolsheviks needed to feed and supply the army, and this required bread. There were uprisings against the whites, who also engaged in requisitions for the same purposes (and atamans, like Annenkov, Kalmykov, Semenov and others, were generally engaged in outright robbery and violence). This is the Civil War, where there are no laws.

            Quote: 11111mail.ru
            "And with the priest and with the fist, the whole conversation: in the belly fatty with a bayonet of the world-eater .."


            - That's right, because the bulk of the people hated this class, considering them thieves and parasites.
            By the way, what - isn't it right now? 100 years have passed and nothing has changed. You now give the go-ahead to the people, so that they will raise the oligarchs and thieves on the pitchfork - do you know how many ordinary "daragikh rassiyan panimash" will follow you? I am sure - more than enough. And I personally would fully support this idea.

            Quote: 11111mail.ru
            To die for the ideas of Comrade Trotsky, bearing with bayonet the ideas of the World Revolution?


            - Look wider and deeper, and preferably beyond the tip of the nose. To die not for the ideas of Comrade Trotsky, but for the new Republic, for the new country and system, "... directly expressing the will of the widest popular masses." In other words, for a new state that will express the will of the ordinary ordinary population, the majority. And not the will of the kulaks, priests, kings, etc., which in the eyes of the people were thieves and parasites.
            1. 11111mail.ru
              11111mail.ru 23 February 2015 11: 01
              -1
              Quote: rodevaan
              And do not tear out of his works and actions only that which is beneficial to you or that justifies your attitude.

              Take a look in the mirror: you are doing it. You tell me (and everyone who reads our discussion) about socialism, I tell you about war communism, but there was no answer in essence to the question, as is what Trotsky's nestlings should do. Justify now the transition from War Communism to NEP, repeat blah blah blah, covering up the collapse of theoretical postulates. I'm waiting. (Without the letter "es" with a space, just waiting)! How can you build an economic order at the expense of "one-two" at the command of "governing bodies"?
              Quote: rodevaan
              The second - there is nothing to move away from the topic and translate arrows from a sore head to a healthy one! We talked about the fact that Lenin’s ideas were able to mobilize the masses in support of the Bolsheviks.

              Are you in a sober mind and clear mind? The results of the elections to the Constituent Assembly tell you nothing? Plebescite however! Voice of the people! All you have in your arguments is: "The guard is tired!"
              Quote: rodevaan
              Lenin, through propaganda, brought these ideas to the people, to the troops, to the fluctuating elites. That is why the people followed him. And not only ordinary people, but also almost 300 tsarist officers and generals.

              Don't tell my slippers! If the people followed him, then there would be no trace of the civil war, which the Bolsheviks and their foreign sponsors were fanning with all their might! And the aforementioned officers and generals chose rusty herring and a packet of lentils to extend the existence of their families for 10-15 years, until the Gulag, to the delight of the singers of "mi" r "govolution". However, how daddy Bronstein is eating you!
              Quote: rodevaan
              And the third - no need to fool! The Tambov uprising and similar uprisings against the Reds are, firstly, not a peasant uprising against Lenin’s ideas.

              That's right, don't fool the people. "For Soviets without Bolsheviks" - is this not against Lenin's ideas?
              Quote: rodevaan
              (and atamans typeо Annenkova

              ...a typeо Annenkova ... How does it fit with spelling?
              Quote: rodevaan
              This is the Civil War, where there are no laws.

              A.A. Bloka re-read:
              "Мы on the mountain to all the bourgeois
              The global fire inflate,
              World Blood Fire -
              God bless! "
              "Comrade, hold the rifle, don't be afraid!
              With a bullet in Holy Russia -
              In the condo,
              To the hut
              To the thicket!
              Eh eh without a cross!"
              Here this is for you kindly ...
              1. rodevaan
                rodevaan 23 February 2015 20: 47
                0
                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                Take a look in the mirror: you are doing it. You tell me (and everyone who reads our discussion) about socialism, I tell you about war communism, but there was no answer in essence to the question, as is what Trotsky's nestlings should do. Justify now the transition from War Communism to NEP, repeat blah blah blah, covering up the collapse of theoretical postulates. I'm waiting. (Without the letter "es" with a space, just waiting)! How can you build an economic order at the expense of "one-two" at the command of "governing bodies"?


                - Take a look in the mirror - you started doing this, and you are also pointing at me with a rusty finger. Our supposedly "discussion" - no one reads for a long time, because you turn any discussion into verbiage that nobody cares about. I talked about this before, the truth is weak. And blah blah blah - this is just your profile, as the practice of the forum again shows.
                And on the topic - why should I talk with ram's stubbornness about military communism, if initially we were talking about something else? You yourself jumped off the topic, tried to make a fool of yourself and me with your other personal attitude towards Lenin, which everyone wanted to spit on. The essence remained the same. Lenin rose to power in the new state, because the bulk of the people supported precisely Lenin and the ideas that he carried to the masses.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                The results of the Constituent Assembly elections tell you nothing?


                - And what does the election to the constituent assembly have to do with it? Are you in a sober mind and clear mind? Well, the elections have passed, and then what? What has changed?
                Here is the war in Ukraine - the second "Minsk agreements" have already passed - what's next? Have you stopped shooting? I have relatives in Makeyevka - it's a 20-minute drive from Donetsk - the artillery is still working in Donetsk, that houses in Makeevka are shaking.
                I’m writing to you in fact how it happened, but you are fooling around and trying to be clever.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                Do not tell my slippers! If the people followed him, then the civil war that the Bolsheviks and their foreign sponsors fanned with all their might would not have been at all!


                - Your slippers will soon start laughing with you. Maybe you are not 11111mail.ru, but Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce? Or maybe you think that "the priest and the fist" would have presented the new government with a green corridor on a silver platter? Read the history of the Civil War, background and reasons. As soon as you are adequate and cease to amuse your galoshes with empty talk, we will talk.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                And the aforementioned officers and generals chose rusty herring and a packet of lentils in order to extend the existence of their families for 10-15 years, until the Gulag, to the delight of the singers of "mi" r "govolution". However, how daddy Bronstein is eating you!


                - You were not asked how officers and generals should behave. It would be very interesting to look at your attempts in their situation. And Bronstein don’t talk your teeth - it looks stupid.
              2. rodevaan
                rodevaan 23 February 2015 20: 48
                0
                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                That's right, don't fool the people. "For Soviets without Bolsheviks" - is this not against Lenin's ideas?


                “They turned on the fool again?” Once again I’m taking you off your bell tower and returning you to the bosom of conversation — the Tambov uprising is not all the people and not all Russia. Catch the difference? Once again I ask - do you catch the difference? And secondly, the Tambov uprising was not against ideas, but against the methods by which ideas were put into practice.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                ... like Annenkova ... How does it fit with spelling?


                - For especially ossified - this is slang. This is not a mistake.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                ..a response essentially question ...


                - Better tell me how IT does it fit with spelling ?? Look first in your own eyes - there will be enough firewood for two winters, and then poke at others, "expert" of spelling.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                A.A. Bloka re-read:
                "We are woe to all bourgeois
                A world fire will blow up,
                World Blood Fire -
                God bless! "
                "Comrade, hold the rifle, don't be afraid!
                With a bullet in Holy Russia -
                In the condo,
                To the hut
                To the thicket!
                Eh, eh, without a cross! "
                This is not nice to you ...


                - So you did not understand the essence of what the poet wrote about. What to talk about then with you?
            2. 11111mail.ru
              11111mail.ru 23 February 2015 11: 51
              0
              Quote: rodevaan
              the bulk of the people hated this class,

              This "mass" sat in the Cheka and in the Lubyanka.
              Lenin’s “top secret” letter to members of the Politburo of March 19, 1922 on resistance to the seizure in Shuya and politics regarding the Church. On the whole, echoing Trotsky, Lenin, also obsessed with the dream of plundering several billion gold rubles, insists that “right now, and only now, when people are eating in hungry places and hundreds, if not thousands of corpses are lying on the roads, we can (and therefore, they must) carry out the seizure of church values ​​with the most frantic and merciless energy and without stopping [before] suppressing any resistance ... The more representatives of the reactionary clergy and reactionary bourgeoisie we are able to shoot on this subject, the better. " http://www.vidania.ru/p_tihon_patriarh.html
              Quote: rodevaan
              You now give the go-ahead to the people, so that they will raise the oligarchs and thieves on the pitchfork - do you know how many ordinary "daragikh rassiyan panimash" will follow you?

              You don’t confuse me with lumpen, I’m an officer and I swore an oath according to the text of 1986 in August 1979. And don’t excuse yourself from raising thieves and oligarchs to pitchforks, only it’s too early: the "chosen people" are still in power, and there are a lot of examples of Maidan means. If they do the same here, it will be to the delight of you and your one-thinkers from the 4th International.
              Quote: rodevaan
              for a new Republic, for a new country and system, "... directly expressing the will of the widest masses of the people." In other words, for a new state that will express the will of the ordinary ordinary population, the majority.

              Here you are lit up, the representative of the "chosen people". Never again shed Russian blood for the interests of the "first" part of the "prog" r "impassive mankind". Fight for the interests of "progressive mankind" yourself, the Russian people have long figured out you and your sponsors and will be brushwood to start the fire of the "world revolution" I myself, a rock-solid Stalinist, crushed nits (while theoretically) and I will crush!
              1. rodevaan
                rodevaan 23 February 2015 21: 05
                0
                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                This "mass" sat in the Cheka and in the Lubyanka.

                and blah blah blah ...

                “Do you understand that you are talking nonsense?” That's just a nonsense city to the heap. I told him about Thomas, and again he told me about Yeryoma. We were not talking about church policies. I tell him that the army, most of the peasantry and the working class supported the Bolsheviks and later joined the ranks of the Red Army, which numerically far exceeded the White movement, which stood for preserving its former position. And he tells me about some secret conspiracies. Stupid crush of words in a mortar. TURN OFF THE FOOL ALREADY!

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                You do not confuse me with lumpens, I am an officer and took the oath according to the text of 1986 in August 1979.


                - I did not confuse you with anyone and did not confuse you. And the fact that you are an officer does not make you superior to anyone. And if you remember, we have already had attempts at "Maidan" more than once. Fortunately, the authorities quickly pushed all this venal jackal through funnels and zindans.

                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                Here you are lit up, the representative of the "chosen people". Never again shed Russian blood for the interests of the "first" part of the "prog" r "impassive mankind". Fight for the interests of "progressive mankind" yourself, the Russian people have long figured out you and your sponsors and will be brushwood to start the fire of the "world revolution" I myself, a rock-solid Stalinist, crushed nits (while theoretically) and I will crush!


                “So, I didn’t understand something, do you mean that,” the Zionists wrote down, how can I look ??
                Are you out of your mind? That is, you yourself, somewhere deep in your brain, decided that the masses of ordinary hungry soldiers and peasants are some kind of gang of bloodsuckers-Jews from the Cheka, who want to destroy the Russian nation and the Orthodox faith? So what ?? And that society, tired of the war, especially the lower classes, wanted changes, moreover, radical ones - you do not admit this? And you see in everything the secret insidious plan of Lenin and "world Zionism", "Masons" and other mythology to destroy Russia?
                I understand your direction of thought correctly ???
              2. rodevaan
                rodevaan 23 February 2015 21: 24
                0
                Quote: 11111mail.ru
                And do not excuse yourself from raising thieves and oligarchs to pitchforks, only it is too early: the "chosen people" are still in power, and the example of the Maidan means a lot. If they do the same here, it will be to the delight of you and your one-thinkers from the 4th International.


                - You can’t promise anything. We can do the same thing only in 1 case - if the power is weak and corrupt, as in the case of the tsar or the infamous drunk in the 90s. Then yes, it will be even worse than in Ukraine 10 times.
                But while I do not notice this. Putin can be blamed and blamed (and there is a reason for this, remembering the rampant corruption), but the fact that he and his team of people he recruited saved the country from collapse and dismemberment into specific principalities is a fact. But it is not eternal, and in its place I would seriously think about the receiver.
    2. smart75
      smart75 21 February 2015 12: 48
      +1
      Lenin and the Bolsheviks did not overthrow the tsar in February 1917.
      They overthrew those who did it.
  11. free
    free 21 February 2015 08: 47
    0
    I couldn’t finish the pancake to the end, Rogers + and thank you, but as far as prilepin, in the comments on his article, he indicated that it was a BUTTER.
  12. rodevaan
    rodevaan 21 February 2015 08: 48
    +1
    Prilepin: These are the children and grandchildren of the same heroes and fearless soldiers - their direct descendants.
    Rogers: Children by blood, but not by spirit. Those who refused to celebrate the Victory Day, the writers “detonated” as something mocking, screaming “Heroic Glory” - what do they have in common with Soviet soldiers? Nothing!

    - Nothing in common! Vlasovites they and traitors! And they betrayed the memory of their grandfathers - the heroes who finished off the Nazi scum in Vienna and Berlin, who stood to death on the cliffs of Sevastopol and in the snow of Moscow and Leningrad. Shame on the miserable descendants of great ancestors.
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov 21 February 2015 12: 30
      0
      Quote: rodevaan
      Shame on the miserable descendants of great ancestors.

      I will not quote the New Testament exactly, but Christ told such "grandchildren" that they should not dare to consider themselves the children of Abraham. That God from stone will create descendants of Abraham instead of people who do not fulfill the covenant of their ancestors.
  13. 1536
    1536 21 February 2015 08: 58
    0
    Ukraine is occupied by the Americans! The invaders are destroying not only the memory of the people, stealing its present and depriving its future, but also simply destroying the people of Ukraine. And as long as the black American president receives "peace prizes" and lies from the rostrum about "democracy" and "an exclusive nation", covering up the crimes of his accomplices, nothing will change in Ukraine. The people who have been held hostage by the international gang led by the US government are subjected to genocide, just as Indian tribes were subjected to genocide in their time. The best destiny for him today is life on the reservation, the worst is degeneration and death. But the people of Ukraine are unlikely to accept this, most likely it will be different.
  14. bylbach
    bylbach 21 February 2015 09: 07
    +2
    Such scribblers as Prilepin usually become adequate only when they are in places where physical effort is evaluated, and not the ability to carry nonsense .. well, there I sawed, uranium mines ..
  15. Kite
    Kite 21 February 2015 09: 09
    +1
    And then I wrote that Prilepina had skidded, and now I will repeat: - there is no explosion of passionarity, but there is a loss of reference points, they lost their mind and conscience, looking at the tricks of a bunch of morons promoted by scoundrels from the Western (enemy) media (SMRADA).
  16. andj61
    andj61 21 February 2015 09: 16
    +2
    Yes, these stupid people constantly scream that they will take Moscow, the Kuban and Vladivostok. Baboons, sitting on a tree, also scream at a lion passing by, and even throw branches at it. But the direction to Moscow is free, there is no front! And not one of them, with his battalions of looters and raiders, went to Moscow like Sirko. Because they are crooks and posers, who are interested in robberies of the defenseless and a comfortable chair in the Rada, and not real military operations. This is NOT the behavior of passionaries, this is the behavior of small jackals who, when they see a bear, scatter with a screech and howl.

    Just wonderful words. Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye!
  17. Yabobylev
    Yabobylev 21 February 2015 10: 07
    0
    "Rogers: That's exactly what I caught. The Japanese fought openly, and these were hiding in caches like rats. Elusive Joes. By the way, the army did not fight with them, the MGB caught them like ordinary criminals." This is what my grandfather did. Let's go out into the open, I will survive - I repeat, but with tripled zeal and diligence.
  18. Gunia
    Gunia 21 February 2015 10: 09
    +1
    Unambiguous PLUS! It is not clear why Prilepin needed this ?! But the answer is more than worthy, BRAVO !!!!
  19. Thompson
    Thompson 21 February 2015 11: 04
    +1
    An eye with taste and plain article! I haven’t read it with such pleasure for a long time! Thin! Spicy! Without pathos!
  20. Arkan
    Arkan 21 February 2015 11: 28
    +1
    Respect to the author! ++++
  21. Alexander_
    Alexander_ 21 February 2015 12: 05
    0
    They will never be forgiven. It is impossible to make peace with the fascists. "There should be only one left."
  22. Alexxas
    Alexxas 21 February 2015 13: 06
    +1
    "... Now these are mankurts who do not know kinship. Janissaries. Or will you call the Janissaries Russians too?"

    Janissaries - a very true definition! good
  23. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 21 February 2015 13: 51
    +1
    Writers tend to embellish and exaggerate,

    Yes. peculiar! But why bring nonsense! This is characteristic only of frostbitten banderlogs!
  24. beer-youk
    beer-youk 21 February 2015 14: 36
    +1
    Rogers showed the first class! Specifically, aptly and to the point!
  25. Yasondinalt
    Yasondinalt 21 February 2015 15: 38
    +1
    Rogers is a big plus, and prilepin, as Uncle Estam said, was a muddy frarok.
  26. Wanderer H7
    Wanderer H7 21 February 2015 16: 22
    +1
    On every point - Rogers is absolutely right. And again, for the umpteenth time !, I personally again became convinced for myself how either 1) corrupt and treacherous; 2) people of the elite can be narrow-minded and empty. I do not deliberately call them the intelligentsia or the "creative class", since neither one nor the other is true. A real intellectual, he is also a representative of a real creative class - a person of intelligence who creates really worthwhile things with his brains, hands and talent given from above - immortal canvases and sculptures, amazing projects of fighters, icebreakers, cars or deep-welding machines, talented poems or novels, amazing to the depth of musical works such as Tchaikovsky's Concerto No. 1, etc. There are also less significant achievements of more modest people in terms of talent - but who, at the same time, thoughtfully and purposefully work for the benefit of their homeland, themselves and society. and who are all sorts of Akhedzhakovs (our Lia Akhedzhakova always plays in the same way - Gaft's words))), Makarevichs (who, not only did not shine with a special talent, they rose in pure conjuncturism and just a little, they caved in under a changeable world (mustache from the amount of green dough depends), secular lionesses annoying us from the screen at the expense of daddy's name and, again, the State Department's dough, all these galkins and pugachevs (smoky and drunken voices), all this treacherous frank shoble-bla, making mediocre films, singing vulgar songs without meaning and depth - all this garbage creeps into all the cracks, considering himself what kind of creators and “the best representatives of humanity.” They are muddy, dandruff and black plaque between the toes. And prilepin, a citizen (I wonder which country - ONLY ours) gave out ANALYSIS It is analysis. In each phrase of his article there is a complete lack of depth, a sober analysis of the facts and motives of the characters, banal common sense, and an objective view of the facts. he saw the impulse! ! Perhaps, the State Department has not sold out to a human being, but this is how narrow-minded, empty and wretched it is to see the ruin in the form of a "passionary impulse" This is pi./pets !!!!!!!!!!!
    1. satris
      satris 21 February 2015 19: 58
      0
      Well said, dear: Anal-out, that is, from anal ... :)
  27. Support
    Support 21 February 2015 17: 38
    0
    You can lose what you have. Judging by their modern deeds, actions and crimes, Ukrofashists had nothing - neither conscience, nor honor, nor memory of their ancestors. Therefore, they don’t lose anything .... Outcasts of civilization.
  28. satris
    satris 21 February 2015 19: 57
    0
    As was the case with Vladimir Solovyov in the "Duel" program: Rogers won! In my opinion, of course. Prilepin, apparently, got carried away a little in the direction of "artistry": he forgot that he was writing not a novel or a story, but a review, and with attempts at analytics and prognostics. However, it didn't work out.
  29. Infernal man
    Infernal man 21 February 2015 20: 14
    -1
    Quote: 1536
    Ukraine is occupied by the Americans! The invaders are destroying not only the memory of the people, stealing its present and depriving its future, but also simply destroying the people of Ukraine. And as long as the black American president receives "peace prizes" and lies from the rostrum about "democracy" and "an exclusive nation", covering up the crimes of his accomplices, nothing will change in Ukraine. The people who have been held hostage by the international gang led by the US government are subjected to genocide, just as Indian tribes were subjected to genocide in their time. The best destiny for him today is life on the reservation, the worst is degeneration and death. But the people of Ukraine are unlikely to accept this, most likely it will be different.

    Mentality. My hut is on the edge. There is no genocide. It's just that Ukrainians are like that. They will "close their eyes" until the very end and walk away. And when everything is secured, they will ask: "What about us?"
    On May 2, I was sure that right now the people would definitely rise! ... For me, there are no more Ukrainians. Some fascists, others cowards. And only a small part is fighting each at its own frontier, as it can, but for the most part it is a nation of cowards and traitors.

    "I won't forget. I won't forgive"
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. zzdimk
    zzdimk 12 October 2017 05: 05
    0
    And Zakhar didn’t hit his head anywhere?