Export fighters Dassault Rafale: there is one contract, two are expected

70
Recently, there have been new reports on the possible future of the Indo-French contract for the supply of Dassault Rafale fighter jets. As before, these news do not bode well for the french side. Seriously protracted negotiations may not lead to any real result, since the parties have not yet found a common language on a number of points of the agreement. At the same time, there are disagreements both on the proposals of India and on the ideas expressed by France. Against this background, it is increasingly being said about the possible choice of a new aircraft for the Indian Air Force.



16 February, the Indian edition of Business Standard, which has repeatedly published news on the progress of the negotiations, announced new details of the current situation. With reference to an unnamed representative of the Indian military, it is argued that the military is already considering a possible rejection of further negotiations and the purchase of French aircraft. The main reason for this is the unacceptably high cost of the proposed equipment. Previously, Dassault was ready to sell fighters at 65 million US dollars per unit, but a year ago, prices rose significantly. Now each plane will cost the customer about 120 million. Thus, the total batch value of the Rafale 126 fighter jets will exceed all reasonable limits. Taking into account the costs of operation during the life cycle, the costs will reach $ 30 billion.

Also, the foreign press reports that instead of French fighters, India can purchase equipment from another country. The possibility of signing a new contract for the construction of Su-30MKI fighter jets, created in Russia and produced under license in Indian enterprises, is being considered. Thus, in mid-January, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar noted that the Russian aircraft is a strong competitor to the French. However, the final decision on this issue has not yet been made.

Against the background of Indian press reports, statements by Russian aircraft manufacturers appeared. On February 17, the Irkut Corporation press service spoke about plans for 2015. By the end of this year, the corporation must complete the supply of all components ordered by India earlier. During 2015, the Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited should receive the last of 222 ordered kits for assembling Su-30MKI fighters. Thus, over the next few months, the next contract for the construction of the Russian aviation techniques.

At the same time, the management of Rosoboronexport made a statement regarding the possible continuation of military-technical cooperation with India. According to the deputy general director of the company, Sergei Goreslavsky, quoted by RIA Novosti, a new contract may emerge for the supply of an additional batch of Su-30MKI fighters, which are already in service with large numbers of Indian air forces. The Russian side is ready for the emergence of such an agreement, but for its appearance an appropriate decision by the Indian leadership is necessary. The request from him has not yet been received.

Recall that the negotiations between India and France on the delivery of Dassault Rafale fighter jets are continuing from the beginning of 126, when the French aircraft was declared the winner of the MMRCA tender. Since that time, the parties have not been able to reach an agreement and sign a contract. According to reports, the signing of the agreement is hampered by several disagreements. First, it was reported that it was impossible to agree on the procedure for the production and maintenance of equipment. India wanted to get a relatively small batch of French-made aircraft, and then expand the construction of the Rafale at its plants. France did not agree to this, since the proposed contract meant the provision of a guarantee not only for "French", but also for "Indian" aircraft. For a number of reasons, Dassault did not accept this order of maintenance.

Relatively recently, at the beginning of last year, a new problem appeared, this time of a financial nature. French aircraft manufacturers almost doubled the cost of their products, as a result of which the Indian Air Force would have to seriously increase its investment in upgrading its equipment.

The latest news about the possible rejection of the contract in conjunction with the events in Europe led to the emergence of a new version, designed to explain the actions of the Indian leadership. France for the past few months for political reasons refuses to transfer to Russia the previously ordered and built universal landing craft of the Mistral type. The fate of the second ship of this type also remains in question. Thus, it can not be ruled out that India no longer sees the point in concluding a deal with a supplier who can at any time refuse to transfer the ordered equipment. However, this version looks less believable than the above.

It should be noted that the current situation around the new contract is equally disadvantageous to both the French and the Indian side. Until recently, Dassault had no export contracts for Rafale fighter jets, and India needed a fairly large number of modern aircraft. It is known that to ensure the required combat effectiveness and effective confrontation with Pakistan, the Indian Air Force must have 45 squadrons of different composition. Currently, they include only 25 squadrons, with more than half of these units equipped with obsolete aircraft that will be decommissioned in the near future.

Thus, the current situation is not very pleasant for both parties, and the search for a way out of it can be associated with serious difficulties. Air India 2015 air show started on Wednesday in Indian Bangalore. It is possible that during this event any statements will be made regarding the protracted negotiations on the long-suffering contract.

India’s Rafale supply contract was to be the first export contract for this aircraft. Nevertheless, the negotiations dragged on for three years, because of which the first was a different agreement. February 16 France and Egypt immediately signed five contracts for the supply of various weapons and equipment. In the foreseeable future, the Egyptian military will receive the Rafale 24 fighter (16 twin Rafale B and 8 single Rafale C) F3 modifications with a guided weapon, as well as a Normandie frigate of the type FREMM and weapons for it. For planes, France will receive about 3,5 billion euros (about 145 million euros per unit) and 700 million will be paid for aircraft armament. The frigate, along with the training of personnel and service, will cost the payer 950 millions, the weapons for him will cost 400 millions.

Of great interest is the funding structure of these purchases. So, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in order to help friendly Egypt have to make a deposit in 10 billion dollars. In order to promptly deliver the ordered weapons and equipment, half of the contract will be paid for with a loan from three French banks. The first payment on the contract may take place before the end of February or in early March.

Contracts involve the transfer of technology in the next few years. In this case, the frigate "Normandy", currently undergoing tests, and the first three fighters Dassault Rafale must be transferred to the Egyptian military already in the second half of the 2015 year. According to some reports, this technique will be shown to the customer in early August, during the opening ceremony of the reconstructed Suez Canal. The main deliveries will begin later and will continue until the end of the decade.

A specific feature of the first export contract for the supply of Rafale aircraft is the procedure for financing the transaction and the selection of goods. In fact, the aircraft for the Egyptian Air Force are bought with money from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, these same countries have been actively involved in choosing a new technology for a friendly state. Thus, the new contract did not appear as a result of a full-fledged tender, however it became a landmark event in stories french fighter.

France hopes that the signing of a contract with Egypt will have a beneficial effect on the future fate of the Rafale aircraft. Paris is currently negotiating with Qatar, the subject of which are fighters of this type. At the same time, the most significant contract has a dubious future, since France still cannot reach an agreement with India, and the latter seems to be considering the possibility of refusing further negotiations.

At the moment, the further fate of the production of aircraft Dassault Rafale looks ambiguous. There is a contract for 24 aircraft for Egypt (at least the first three cars will be transferred from the French Air Force), and in the near future a similar agreement with Qatar may appear. At the same time, the largest and most anticipated contract for 126 aircraft has not yet been signed, and its future raises questions. At the same time, a possible contract between India and Russian aircraft manufacturers appeared on the horizon, in accordance with which an additional batch of Su-30MKI fighters could be built. What happens next is unknown. At the moment there is only one firm contract that Dassault can count on. The other two, representing no less interest, are open to question.


On the materials of the sites:
http://business-standard.com/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/
http://ria.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
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  1. Portoss
    +4
    19 February 2015 06: 16
    In May, tests of the BRAMOS anti-ship missile launched from the SU-30MKI will begin. So the future of Rafaley is still foggy.
    1. +3
      19 February 2015 06: 44
      Su 30 in all respects surpasses Rafael what is there to think !?
      1. -2
        19 February 2015 06: 57
        Quote: krokodil25
        Su 30 in all respects surpasses Rafael what is there to think !?

        What are the parameters? And which Su-30 exactly?
        1. +1
          19 February 2015 07: 15
          Yes, at least because drying from the class of heavy machines is something like this.
          1. +2
            19 February 2015 10: 57
            Quote: krokodil25
            Yes, at least because drying from the class of heavy machines is something like this.

            These are the times since when overweight has become an advantage?
            1. +5
              19 February 2015 16: 33
              Clearly, he says: that these aircraft are of different classes. It would be more correct to compare Rafal with the MiG-29 / MiG-35.
      2. -8
        19 February 2015 07: 18
        What exactly????
    2. -7
      19 February 2015 09: 40
      French planes have always been pretty good. It is enough to recall the track record of Mirages in the Middle East. Regarding the contract with India, I would have waited a couple of years in the place of the Indians and purchased the F-35, a full-fledged 5th generation aircraft. According to the characteristics of Rafalu to F-35 not reach
      1. +9
        19 February 2015 10: 43
        F-35? You are joking? What price will the F-35 have? and whether he will be at all, at least in the arsenal of the usa. They have big problems with him there.
        1. -6
          19 February 2015 13: 58
          Do not read the Russian-language press about F-35, you won’t know the truth ... Normally, everything goes with F-35. The car has risen in price, there are childhood diseases that are being addressed. The usual situation for such a complex project. At 2017, the arrival of the first vehicles to the Israeli Air Force is expected
          1. +2
            19 February 2015 16: 30
            Quote: Chignoner
            Do not read the Russian-language press about F-35, you won’t know the truth ... Normally, everything goes with F-35. The car has risen in price, there are childhood diseases that are being addressed. The usual situation for such a complex project. At 2017, the arrival of the first vehicles to the Israeli Air Force is expected

            and missiles with bombs will be given to them by the Americans?
          2. Bear
            +4
            19 February 2015 22: 55
            Yeah, do not read the Russian-language press, read the English-language! Apparently, the author of the commentary adheres to the traditional point of view that the truth in the world is written only in the USA.
          3. +2
            20 February 2015 14: 43
            India does not and will not have a potential enemy with F-35 class aircraft (unless the United States itself). They need a plane that has the best value for money. Our Su-30MKI is good, and even with the "Brahmos". Ours need to actively promote their products, develop Avionics and improve engines, and provide service. To test another Su-30 in a real battle, otherwise Rafali and Typhoons have already fought, but the Su-30 is not
          4. -1
            20 February 2015 14: 43
            India does not and will not have a potential enemy with F-35 class aircraft (unless the United States itself). They need a plane that has the best value for money. Our Su-30MKI is good, and even with the "Brahmos". Ours need to actively promote their products, develop Avionics and improve engines, and provide service. To test another Su-30 in a real battle, otherwise Rafali and Typhoons have already fought, but the Su-30 is not
      2. +7
        19 February 2015 12: 16
        Quote: Chignoner
        Regarding the contract with India, I would wait a couple of years in place of the Indians and acquire the F-35, a full-fledged 5 generation aircraft. According to the characteristics of Rafalu to F-35 not reach


        And what, in a couple of years, the sale of the F-35 is expected?
        Interesting news.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. +11
        19 February 2015 12: 26
        It is too early to say that. that the F-35 is really a full-fledged, not only a 5th generation fighter, but an aircraft in general. And the question of transferring such modern technologies from the United States to India (and the Indians intended to produce Rafali under license at their factories) is very controversial.

        PS Comrade (Sir) Chironier, you have already decided on your state. affiliation, or you are now under the Israeli flag, now under the yellow-black. So, no offense ...
        1. gjv
          +5
          19 February 2015 12: 41
          Quote: andrey-ivanov
          Comrade (Mr.) Chironier, you have already decided on your state. affiliation, or you are now under the Israeli flag, now under the yellow-black. So, no offense ...

          Andrey, this site "sets off" flags. I, too, are different, or it happens without a flag at all and without a "muzzle" shows, as you have now - neither the flag nor the avatar is visible. At the next update, m. again will show in a different way ...
          If you want to know the state - ask directly, maybe they will answer fellow
          1. +3
            19 February 2015 12: 48
            I am so, without malice. I did not know about the "jambs" with the site.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. +2
          19 February 2015 13: 53
          This automatically displays the flag at the location. I live in Israel, now for a few days on a business trip in Ukraine
          1. gjv
            +9
            19 February 2015 14: 04
            Quote: Chignoner
            This automatically displays the flag at the location. I live in Israel, now for a few days on a business trip in Ukraine

            On a business trip in Ukraine - that's interesting - military or official. Do you build machine guns or radar? Or automatic lines in confectioneries? Or not at the candy store? Or elevators in the Kiev ministries? wassat
          2. The comment was deleted.
      5. gjv
        +4
        19 February 2015 12: 32
        Quote: Chignoner
        Regarding the contract with India, I would wait a couple of years in place of the Indians and acquire the F-35, a full-fledged 5 generation aircraft. According to the characteristics of Rafalu to F-35 not reach

        Hindus already now want to be combat-ready, and for this they want to fly and learn technologies and develop technologies for their Tejas planes themselves. They have already more or less mastered our Su-30MKI (of course, we can talk for a long time about the quality of development). Do not hesitate, they are looking at the development of the 5th generation - both at our PAK FA and at the F-35, and are probably inclined towards the latter. However, now the Rafale is a really good flying plane, carrying enough combat load. At the same time, Rafal is compact and light (in comparison with our Su-30MKI), and has a carrier-based version, which is of great interest to the Indians (they also want to do Tejas in land and sea versions). Therefore, the question of Raphael's price is a question of the chosen option, which is not reported in the article, and in the list of equipment with on-board and service equipment, weapons. Technologically, Rafal is interesting for the airframe design, largely made of composite materials, therefore lightweight - providing, with small dimensions and low wing loading, good maneuverability and combat radius with a "normal" combat load.
      6. The comment was deleted.
      7. 0
        19 February 2015 15: 53
        Quote: Chignoner
        I would wait a couple of years in the place of the Indians and acquire the F-35, a full-fledged 5th generation aircraft.

        Have you not read Hasek? I advise you sincerely ... And please leave the Indians in their place! They themselves, without you, somehow ... hi
      8. +1
        19 February 2015 19: 18
        [quote = chirioner] French planes have always been very good [/ quote]
        here I agree. [quote]. [quote]. Regarding the contract with India, I would wait a couple of years in place of the Indians and buy the F-35, a full-fledged 5th generation aircraft [/ quote] [/ quote] [/ quote]
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. gjv
      +1
      19 February 2015 15: 14
      Quote: Portoss
      In May, tests of the BRAMOS anti-ship missile launched from the SU-30MKI will begin. So the future of Rafaley is still foggy.

      So the Indians will have options in this matter.
      Strain the French to add Storm Shadow range and speed.
      Tighten our joint venture to develop the Bramos-A suspension on Rafal and Tejas.
      So the future of Rafaley is more dependent on the price of technology transfer.
  2. +1
    19 February 2015 06: 29
    Thus, it cannot be ruled out that India no longer sees sense in concluding a deal with a supplier, which may at any time refuse to transfer the ordered equipment.
    Dear Comrades Indians, I assure you that it will be so feel
    1. +1
      19 February 2015 13: 02
      Quote: Loner_53
      Thus, it cannot be ruled out that India no longer sees sense in concluding a deal with a supplier, which may at any time refuse to transfer the ordered equipment.
      Dear Comrades Indians, I assure you that it will be so feel

      The Russian Federation also seems to have distinguished itself under a contract for s-300 for Iran, so there is no need to assure everyone and look for flaws. Political, technological and financial circumstances always prevail in arms deals; this is not to sell round timber.
    2. 0
      19 February 2015 17: 07
      Quote: Loner_53
      Loner_53 (3) Today, 06: 29
      Thus, it cannot be ruled out that India no longer sees sense in concluding a deal with a supplier, which may at any time refuse to transfer the ordered equipment.
      Dear Comrades Indians, I assure you that it will be so

      It is nonsense. It’s just that the Indians really like to review the terms of tenders and constantly fall on it
  3. +4
    19 February 2015 06: 30
    Ours need to push harder on the Indians so that they abandon the Rafale contract, for example, to offer a discount on the Su-30MKI. Punish the frogs by any means, so that it is discouraging.
    1. +9
      19 February 2015 07: 13
      Quote: silver169
      the Rafale contract, for example, to offer a discount on the Su-30MKI.

      As practice shows: a bribe is more reliable than a discount
      1. Pervusha Isaev
        0
        19 February 2015 09: 00
        Quote: qwert
        As practice shows: a bribe is more reliable than a discount


        not a bribe, but a kickback is paid 100 lyamof, 20 kickback lemons, such things are familiar to our entrepreneurs ...
    2. +1
      19 February 2015 07: 28
      By any means, the USSR supported the "allies" in the bloc. He gave loans, supplied weapons on credit. We all know very well how it all ended.
      1. +6
        19 February 2015 09: 42
        Quote: Jack-B
        By any means, the USSR supported the "allies" in the bloc. He gave loans, supplied weapons on credit. We all know very well how it all ended.

        to give loans for the sale of their own products is a common practice, it is lending to their own industry. And how did it end? We already heard the liberal whining. Even the clumsy economy of the USSR had 22 percent of the world, and now 2 ... Everyone knows that the USSR fell victim betrayal of the ruling elite.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  4. +3
    19 February 2015 06: 52
    Thus, the total cost of a batch of 126 Rafale fighters will exceed all reasonable limits.

    If the Indians are satisfied with such a price, then why is it "beyond reasonable limits"? The question is not the price, but the warranty.
    France did not agree to this, since the proposed contract implied the provision of a guarantee not only for “French”, but also for “Indian” aircraft. For a number of reasons, Dassault did not accept this escort order.

    Yes, there is one reason: the well-known curvature of HAL employees, what is done by their hands either burns on the ground or requires repair. Giving warranties on their crooked hands is obviously a loss.
    and India needs a fairly large number of modern aircraft.

    India needs modern technologies, therefore the price is not important for them, therefore, they are not interested in additional purchase of Su-30 because there is nothing modern in it.
    I think after Aero India 2015 we will hear more intelligible news on this contract. Perhaps a new player will appear on the scene ... perhaps from the USA ...
    1. +5
      19 February 2015 07: 18
      Quote: Nayhas
      India needs modern technologies, therefore the price is not important for them, therefore, they are not interested in additional purchase of Su-30 because there is nothing modern in it.

      So it is unified under the western equipment. If you consider Russian weapons to be rubbish, then the Su-30MKI is not difficult to equip with French and Israeli systems. That's just the obsolescence of our systems is a very controversial issue. I would not be so categorical
      1. +3
        19 February 2015 11: 43
        Quote: qwert
        So it is unified under the western equipment.

        You do not quite understand what the Indians want. They cannot localize 100% production in India. According to their high-profile statements, they strive to achieve 70% localization, which is very much. For example, according to Rafal, they are not able to make the engine and the main part of avionics, radar accurately. Those. the fuselage remains and its filling (wires, tubes, etc., experts forgive me ...)
        Watch their tortured LCA Tejas hack. According to available information, the aircraft fuselage is made in a high proportion of the use of composite materials. Everything is beautiful in words, but not very in the photo:

        Those. they have problems with using composites. They can be solved by mastering the technologies used by the French on Rafal. The Su-30 is of no help here, because it is completely "iron", which is why it is so heavy.
        1. 0
          19 February 2015 13: 45
          Quote: Nayhas
          Those. they have problems with the use of composites. You can solve them by mastering the technologies applied by the French on Rafale.

          So the problem arose because of the transfer of technology, which in fact was the reason for the disagreements. The French refused to transfer the technology, and the price suits them perfectly.
          And if you look further, then India will greatly rise in the aircraft industry after mastering these technologies and perhaps not only the French do not want to strengthen India
          1. gjv
            0
            19 February 2015 14: 15
            Quote: APASUS
            and perhaps not only the French do not want the strengthening of India

            All our friends want India gain?
            China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Australia, Indonesia ...
            It is necessary to consult the Indian Foreign Ministry to continue the list. Well, or as in the UN, continue to call "some others" - "guess, they say, yourself" ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
  5. +2
    19 February 2015 07: 13
    Quote: Nayhas
    What are the parameters? And which Su-30 exactly?

    Well, since an article about India, it’s clear that Su-30MKI. Surpasses in all respects, except for the mass of the combat load and the number of suspension units. But here again, how to count. Since the Su-30 has a significantly larger range with equal combat load, such a paradox.
    1. +5
      19 February 2015 12: 59
      Quote: qwert
      Surpasses in all respects except

      Well, let's count the "except":
      The empty mass of the Su-30MKI is 19t., And Rafal 9,5t., Hence the increased requirements for the runway.
      Dimensions Su-30MKI length / wingspan / height 21,9 / 14,7 / 6,36 m., Rafal respectively 15,3 / 10,8 / 5,34 m. It is clear that the larger the plane, the more storage problems because it is advisable to keep the aircraft in the hangar.
      Combat load 8t. against 9,5t. with Rafal, the latter has a clear advantage.
      A radar on the Su-30MKI N011 Bars openly loses a radar with an AFAR RBE 2 on Rafal (in range, along tracks simultaneously tracked, on ground work), which in principle is natural because the latter is much younger, but in any case Rafal has an advantage.
      According to the nomenclature of weapons, the Su-30MKI remained in the 20th century and it has nothing equal to the Storm Shadow-SCALP EG, AASM-Hammer, GBU-12 Paveway II, GBU-24 Paveway III.
      Now you can list the superior parameters of the Su-30MKI.

      Quote: qwert
      By the fact that with an equal combat load the Su-30 has a significantly larger radius of action, such a paradox.

      Justify, I hope the nonsense that you wove on "TV" will not lead.
      The maximum combat radius of the Su-30MKI is 4000 km, and the Rafale about 2000.

      The combat radius of the Su-30MK is 1500 km, of Rafal 1800 km. Even the flight range according to the Irkut Corporation at the Su-30MK 3000km. http://www.irkut.com/products/18/238/
      Rafal has a flight range of 3700km.
      But for machines equipped with a refueling system in the air, these parameters are not particularly important.
      1. +2
        19 February 2015 16: 22
        The combat radius of the Su-30MK is 1500 km, of Rafal 1800 km.
        Dear WAF about the radius of Rafal has already chewed here is his literal comment
        Rafal has a radius of 1700 km in the interceptor variant, and 1100 in the shock variant.
        Now - "we go to arithmetic" - to reach this milestone we have:

        Empty weight - 10000 kg;
        Normal take-off weight - 14710 kg;
        Maximum take-off weight - 24500 kg;
        Payload mass - 9500 kg;
        The mass of fuel - 4700 kg;
        The mass of fuel in the outboard fuel engines - 6700 kg;

        Ie - 10000kg + 4700kg + 6700kg = 21400kg (plus the "French" trick "the weight of the" empty ", not" empty loaded ", because add another 300 kg to the total = 21 kg.
        We subtract from the weight G vzl.makh. = 24 500 - 21 700 and we get 2 800 kg .... everything .. the plane can’t do anything else, i.e. Toltko for a radius of 1100 km !!!

        Our Su-30SM flies precisely with 8 tons per combat radius of 1600 km (but this is only with internal fuel) Instead of 2 (internal) suspension units, one PTB is hung up and ... your Rafal in this regard .. quietly resting
        So think before you praise Rafal in this regard, everywhere is the range only with the PTB and the combat load is small.
        1. 0
          19 February 2015 17: 53
          Quote: Sergei1982
          So think before you praise Rafal in this regard, everywhere is the range only with the PTB and the combat load is small.

          Quote: Sergei1982
          So think before you praise Rafal in this regard, everywhere is the range only with the PTB and the combat load is small.

          What a lazy you are. Can’t you take it yourself?
          Maximum take-off weight 24,5t., Fuel reserve 4,7t., Empty weight 9,5t.
          Now we begin to take away: 24,5-4,7-9,5 = 10,3t. Those. 10,3t. on combat load, pilot and refueling all systems.
          Now about the Su-30MK.
          Maximum take-off weight 34t. (Data from the manufacturer’s website), fuel supply 9,6t., Empty weight 18,8t.
          34-9,6-18,8 = 5,6t.
          What is it? Maximum load 8t. Su-30MK takes with incomplete refueling, respectively, at full refueling, it takes only two-thirds of its maximum combat load.
          PS: I repeat. In the presence of a refueling system in the air, these calculations do not have much significance because you can take off at an incomplete refueling, and then refuel in the air. BUT! Rafal really as much as a donkey drags on itself as much as Su-30MK does not drag. A photo with a maximum load on the sea network, but nowhere you will not find a photo of the Su-30MK with a maximum load in the air.

          So think before you use other people's thoughts.
          1. 0
            19 February 2015 18: 04
            Maximum take-off weight 24,5t., Fuel reserve 4,7t., Empty weight 9,5t.
            Rafal empty 10 tons from where you came up with 9,5 tons.
            Maximum take-off weight 34t. (Data from the manufacturer's website),
            Yes, you are too lazy to look for the data here look:
            Aircraft performance
            Take-off weight:
            - normal (including missiles 2xR-27R1 + 2xR-73E, 5270 kg of fuel), kg 24900*
            - maximum, kg 34500
            - limit, kg 38800
            Maximum landing weight, kg 23600
            Maximum landing weight, kg 30000
            Maximum fuel capacity in internal tanks, kg 9640
            Normal fuel supply in internal tanks, kg 5270
            Maximum combat load weight, kg 8000
            Practical ceiling (without hangers), km 17,3
            Maximum flight speed near the ground (without suspension), km/h 1350
            Maximum number M (without hangers) 2,00 (1,9**)
            Maximum operating overload 9
            Maximum flight range (with 2xR-27R1, 2xR-73E missiles with halfway launch):
            - near the ground, km 1270
            - at an altitude, km 3000
            - with one refueling (with fuel remaining 1500 kg), km 5200
            - with two in-flight refueling, km 8000
            Maximum flight duration (according to the capabilities of the pilot), h 10
            Takeoff run at normal takeoff weight, m ​​550
            Run length at normal landing weight (with braking parachute), m 750
            Aircraft Dimensions:
            - length, m 21,9
            - span, m 14,7
            - height, m ​​6,4
            Number of crew members 2
            And with the maximum mass, calculate how much it will turn out. About 11 tons.
          2. 0
            20 February 2015 13: 15
            A photo with a maximum load on the sea network, but nowhere you will not find a photo of the Su-30MK with a maximum load in the air.
            Please see: as you see in the photo 32 FAB-250 and 2 R-73 are 32 x 250 kg = 8000 kg, 2 x 110 kg (R-73) = 220 kg, 5 x 148 kg (MBD3-U6-68) = 740 kg, 2 x 50 kg = 100 kg (APU-62) .Total 9060 kg.
        2. gjv
          0
          19 February 2015 21: 28
          Quote: Sergei1982
          Ie - 10000kg + 4700kg + 6700kg = 21400kg (plus the "French" trick "the weight of the" empty ", not the" empty equipped ", because add another 300 kg to the total = 21 700 kg. Subtract from the weight G vzl.mah. = 24 500 - 21 700 and we get 2 800 kg .... that's all ... the plane can't do anything else, that is, only for a radius of 1100 km !!! Our Su-30SM flies with 8 tons for a combat radius of 1600 km (but this is only with internal fuel) Instead of 2 (internal) suspension nodes one PTB is hung up and...

          Quote: Sergei1982
          think before you praise Rafal in this regard, everywhere the range is only with the PTB and the combat load is small.

          Here is one of the variants of the Rafale M (naval, 1 pilot), combat load: MICA IR "air-to-air" on consoles 2 x 112 kg, MICA RF "air-to-air" under the fuselage 2 x 112 kg, AASM 250 "air —Surface "on suspensions under the wings 2 x 3 x 250 kg - total 1948 kg. Three PTBs for 6700 kg. Here is the calculation: 10000 + 4700 + 6700 + 1948 + 300 = 23648 kg. The combat load of 10 missiles and could still take - 852 kg of combat load. Yes, and it is not clear what kind of an appendage "sly French" in 300 kg "equipped" weight. The French report that in a similar configuration, the range is 1900 km.
          As for the Su-30MKI, it is somehow incomprehensible. Here is the normal takeoff weight - (including 2xR-27R1 + 2xR-73E missiles, 5270 kg of fuel), kg 24900 *. Trying to calculate from the empty weight: 18800 + 5270 + 2 x 350 + 2 x 105 = 24980 kg. It turned out that already over 80 kg. We look at the asterisk - different devices - okay ± 80 kg back and forth - a trifle. Well, where is the 300 kg "cunning French" makeweight - 300 kg - why is it not needed on the Su-30MKI?
          But in the end, the combat load - 4 air-to-air missiles - versus 4 air-to-air missiles and 6 air-to-surface missiles at Rafal. And the combat radius of the Su-30MKI is not so large.
          Quote: Sergei1982
          Maximum flight range (with 2xR-27R1, 2xR-73E missiles with start halfway): - near the ground, km 1270 - at an altitude, km 3000

          After launch half way combat radius and ends. And does not lengthen in a way - one PTB is hung up and ... - On the Su-30MK, the PTB is not installed, Sergey, you just did not read the TTX to the Armament section.
          1. 0
            20 February 2015 12: 45
            There is one PTB and ... - the Su-30MK PTB is not installed, Sergey, you just did not read the TTX to the Armament section.
            Here it is here that the data on the Su-30MK on the Su-30SM are given, I did not find the data on the manufacturer’s website. By the way, do not tell me how you get the radius from Rafal at 1900 km with a load if he has a distant range of 3700 km empty from the PTB, that is, empty 1850, and with a load of 1948 kg he manages to fly 1900 km; this cannot be contrary to the laws of physics.
            Yes, and it is not clear what kind of an appendage "sly French" in 300 kg "equipped" weight.
            And where do you denote the pilot in the suit and the parachute, here we usually are part of an empty plane and the French do not.
            1. gjv
              0
              20 February 2015 20: 37
              Quote: Sergei1982
              we usually are part of an empty plane and the French do not.

              This "custom" is strangely illogical, so I don't believe it. Sushka also needs to add 300 kg without "tricks". But this physical weight distribution, in my opinion, also does not matter much. Nevertheless, the calculation of the combat radius of application should be more complex and multifactorial. There are probably tactical guides on this topic.
              According to the laws of physics, for Raphael, I think that the range of 1900 km is the range (by the way, I don't get anything here, the French write it, FoxThree # 15). And the combat radius is at least half - 950 km or less, depending on the combat situation. Here is the configuration in the photo - a strike aircraft - taking off from an aircraft carrier, testing 6 missiles against ground / surface targets at a distance of up to 900-950 km on guidance by ship means, returning to an aircraft carrier. In the event of air countermeasures, a maneuver battle using the remaining 4 V-V missiles and a cannon. Here the load decreased, fuel consumption decreased, and some kind of power reserve appeared. And the task - to return to the deck - is extreme.
              Similarly for the Su-30MK in the configuration of LTX (including 2xR-27R1 + 2xR-73E missiles, 5270 kg of fuel) - take-off to intercept, set max. altitude at the heading for guidance from a ground or air AWACS, working off at a target at a distance of up to 1500 km (this is with start halfway), it turns out - the combat radius is larger, only he will not be able to return to the aircraft carrier - not deck. Therefore, the Indians want to learn Rafal - compact, lightweight, marine.
              Another thing is maneuverable aerial combat on the ground theater. Here you can’t calculate the combat radius with a simple weight distribution. For the Su-30MK it is said - the distance from the ground is 1270 km - in half - a radius of 635 km is approximate. Maybe Rafal is no more. However, on earth there is the opportunity to go to another airfield. At sea - the deck - otherwise the edge. Something like that.
              1. 0
                20 February 2015 20: 47
                Nevertheless, the calculation of the combat radius of application should be more complex, multifactorial. There are probably tactical manuals on this subject.
                Well, what am I saying about the Su-30 in the version of the 1500 km fighter without the PTB in the profile, the high altitude at Rafal is 1700 but with the PTB in the low profile at the Su-30 1270/2 = 635 km with a minimum load for Rafal within this, but with PTB what’s the problem, everything should be like a su-30 heavy class and a rafal of light (more correctly medium) the empty cargo will still have more these are different classes of aircraft why should they be compared even if the Indian Ministry of Defense said
                Against the background of rumors that the Indian Air Force refuse to purchase French Rafale fighter jets and acquire more Su-30MKIs, Air Force Commander-in-Chief 1 Arup Raha publicly stated that Rafal and Su-30 are “different planes and they cannot replace each other ", Livefistdefence.com reports February 19th.

                “The requirements for the MMRCA and Su-30 tender are slightly different. Each aircraft has its own capabilities. They complement each other, but do not replace, ”Raha said at a press conference at the Aero India 2015 exhibition. He also said that the Air Force does not have a backup plan for the tender, there is only plan A (the purchase of Rafal fighters). The marshal also said that the cancellation of the purchase of "Rafaley" will aggravate the already difficult situation with the number of combat-ready squadrons of fighters and the contract should be concluded "in the near future".
                what is the problem why compare incomparable is like comparing the Tu-22m3 and Tu-160 each has its pros and cons.
                1. gjv
                  0
                  20 February 2015 21: 15
                  Sergey,
                  Quote: Sergei1982
                  what is the problem
                  .
                  The comparison began (or rather pushed), the dude who wrote: Su-30 in all respects is better, nothing to think about. For him, and compared.
                  But it’s interesting how you compared the radars, if the French do not give open data on RBE2, they only boast that there are 40 targets followed (Bars has 15)?
                  Another photograph of the Su-30 with a combat load - is it bigger? This is not clear - where what and how much (except for the P-73).
                  1. 0
                    21 February 2015 08: 19
                    But it’s interesting how you compared the radars, if the French do not give open data on RBE2, they only boast that there are 40 targets followed (Bars has 15)?
                    I where infa came across (if I lay out the naid) that yes escort 40, but possible attack at the same time only 4. I will try to get a bigger photo.
                    1. gjv
                      0
                      21 February 2015 11: 06
                      Quote: Sergei1982
                      Yes, escort 40, but a possible attack at the same time only 4. I will try to upload a larger photo.

                      Bars also has 4 attackers, but this is not so important, because there are also many factors - the nature of targets, directions and perspectives, the capabilities of suspended missiles for guidance and guidance or homing, the environment of electronic warfare, weather.
                      It’s more interesting to look at the photo - the sections of the nozzles of the engines noticeably protrude beyond the sections of the horizontal tail. Apparently this is the new Su-30SM with a new 117C engine increased by 16% traction and digital control. Well, digital control, of course, will not be visible in the photo! fellow
                      1. 0
                        21 February 2015 12: 31
                        It’s more interesting to look at the photo - the sections of the nozzles of the engines noticeably protrude beyond the sections of the horizontal tail. Apparently this is the new Su-30SM with a new 117C engine increased by 16% traction and digital control.
                        I don’t know where I read the article that on our Su-30SM to put AL-31F M1 with OBT of the arc at 13500.
                        tracking terrain when flying at low altitude.
                        Due to its unique characteristics, the RBE 2 station can detect targets at a great distance and at the same time track up to 40 air targets (flying at different altitudes, including those against the background of the earth's surface) in any weather and in conditions of powerful interference. After processing the information received, eight priority goals are identified against which Mika air-to-air missiles with an active radar guidance system are used. Every 2 s one rocket is launched. After that, the radar continues to accompany the remaining 32 targets, while adjusting the flight of missiles
                        I made a mistake on Paralai in the article indicate that 8 attack at the same time.
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            3. gjv
              +1
              20 February 2015 21: 22
              Quote: Sergei1982
              I did not find any data on the Su-30SM on the manufacturer’s website

              It is believed secret - in view of the deliveries of the RF Ministry of Defense, open access to LTH is prohibited.
              1. 0
                21 February 2015 08: 21
                It is considered secret - in view of the supplies of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, open access to LTH is prohibited.
                It is possible, but although I do not think that there will be very large differences from the su-30MKI
            4. The comment was deleted.
        3. gjv
          0
          19 February 2015 21: 28
          Quote: Sergei1982
          Ie - 10000kg + 4700kg + 6700kg = 21400kg (plus the "French" trick "the weight of the" empty ", not the" empty equipped ", because add another 300 kg to the total = 21 700 kg. Subtract from the weight G vzl.mah. = 24 500 - 21 700 and we get 2 800 kg .... that's all ... the plane can't do anything else, that is, only for a radius of 1100 km !!! Our Su-30SM flies with 8 tons for a combat radius of 1600 km (but this is only with internal fuel) Instead of 2 (internal) suspension nodes one PTB is hung up and...

          Quote: Sergei1982
          think before you praise Rafal in this regard, everywhere the range is only with the PTB and the combat load is small.

          Here is one of the variants of the Rafale M (naval, 1 pilot), combat load: MICA IR "air-to-air" on consoles 2 x 112 kg, MICA RF "air-to-air" under the fuselage 2 x 112 kg, AASM 250 "air —Surface "on suspensions under the wings 2 x 3 x 250 kg - total 1948 kg. Three PTBs for 6700 kg. Here is the calculation: 10000 + 4700 + 6700 + 1948 + 300 = 23648 kg. The combat load of 10 missiles and could still take - 852 kg of combat load. Yes, and it is not clear what kind of an appendage "sly French" in 300 kg "equipped" weight. The French report that in a similar configuration, the range is 1900 km.
          As for the Su-30MKI, it is somehow incomprehensible. Here is the normal takeoff weight - (including 2xR-27R1 + 2xR-73E missiles, 5270 kg of fuel), kg 24900 *. Trying to calculate from the empty weight: 18800 + 5270 + 2 x 350 + 2 x 105 = 24980 kg. It turned out that already over 80 kg. We look at the asterisk - different devices - okay ± 80 kg back and forth - a trifle. Well, where is the 300 kg "cunning French" makeweight - 300 kg - why is it not needed on the Su-30MKI?
          But in the end, the combat load - 4 air-to-air missiles - versus 4 air-to-air missiles and 6 air-to-surface missiles at Rafal. And the combat radius of the Su-30MKI is not so large.
          Quote: Sergei1982
          Maximum flight range (with 2xR-27R1, 2xR-73E missiles with start halfway): - near the ground, km 1270 - at an altitude, km 3000

          After launch half way combat radius and ends. And does not lengthen in a way - one PTB is hung up and ... - On the Su-30MK, the PTB is not installed, Sergey, you just did not read the TTX to the Armament section.
    2. gjv
      +3
      19 February 2015 13: 13
      Quote: qwert
      Surpasses in all respects, except for the mass of the combat load and the number of suspension units. But here again, how to count. By the fact that with an equal combat load the Su-30 has a significantly larger radius of action, such a paradox.

      Please share who and how compared the equality of combat loads and combat radius of action (not the maximum flight range at one gas station) Interesting information - if it is informative - otherwise, really a paradox.
      Here, for example, Rafal has a rate of climb of 305 m / s, a combat radius of 1800 km, a landing range of 450 m without a parachute.
      And the Su-30MK has a climb rate of 230 m / s, a combat radius of 1500 km, and a landing mileage of 750 m with a parachute.
      Well, the size of the parking lot matters.
      1. KAB
        KAB
        +1
        19 February 2015 15: 34
        The Indians need the whole technology, they demand this from the paddling pool, and the Rafale cannot be underestimated, it is one of the contenders for the title of the best fighter and is stronger than the Su-30 in aerial combat, and the Indians know this. Indians at one time were looking at the MiG-35, but they had complaints about the unfinished AFAR "Zhuk", at that time the government of the Russian Federation suddenly stopped funding the "Zhuk" and he accordingly flew out of the tender. "Rafale" itself is a pure fighter, it has no extra weight at all, if it is necessary to carry out shock operations, a corresponding container and weapons are suspended from it. Say what you like, but they created a successful car, our only counterbalance to them is the MiG-35 (OVT), I wonder why the leadership does not offer India both options for Sushki and MiG. We need to take off our rose-colored glasses and really look at our aviation, because the Indians even know that having only heavy vehicles is not the best idea. Why do we only have computer air battles? Why won't the Su-30s conduct training battles with the MiG-35 (OVT), with the Rafals and Typhoons? The Americans, as it were, were not proud, but nevertheless fought with the Rafals and although they lost miserably, they now know their weaknesses and strengths and the French, respectively. And we have hats in the sky, we have better. In what? There is at least one reason why our Sushki should win the air battle against Rafal, and although I really like the Su30SM, I will say no. Even a lightweight MiG-35 (OVT) will find it difficult to do this, but we are hammering it, like the entire RSK MiG. This is the military sphere, pink-colored glasses are unacceptable here; in the event of a conflict, this will lead to large losses in people and equipment. If you don't start mass production of the MiG-29M (OVT) now, then we will have nothing to oppose to the Typhoons, Griffins and Rafals, you can minus me, but these machines cannot be pulled by the Dryers. Do not believe me, conduct training air battles. Moreover, MiGs must be necessarily with OVT and AFAR.
        1. 0
          19 February 2015 16: 01
          "Rafale" cannot be underestimated, it is one of the contenders for the title of the best fighter and is stronger than the Su-30 in aerial combat, and the Indians know this.
          In which place he is stronger in aerial combat, do not tell Bars detects at 150 km and at Rafal at 130 km at Su-30cm r-77 at 110 km, and at Rafal Mik at 60 km, the meteor will only be integrated in 2018. At su -30 OBT Rafal doesn’t have any, and where is the advantage in the air about the range? I’m silent about the Su-30MKI without PTB flying as much as Rafal with the PTB. I don’t argue that the car is good, but you didn’t compare it with the instant-35, but the characteristics are similar there Mig-35 due to maneuverability is better, I don’t argue of course on the level of avionics Rafal is certainly better than the Su-30MKI and than the mig-35 (in the sense of what is now and the present one which will make rafal in terms of avionics level) and if possible work it’s better on the ground than the su-30MKI and instantly-35 at least so far, but through the air you have bent it loses here.
        2. 0
          20 February 2015 16: 28
          Forgot to mention the F-16 and 18. Ours have a good glider, but Avionics is weak and it has always been. plus the final product differed from the prototype for the worse, and the weight of the F-15 was always stronger than the f-16, although it is lighter
        3. 0
          20 February 2015 16: 28
          Forgot to mention the F-16 and 18. Ours have a good glider, but Avionics is weak and it has always been. plus the final product differed from the prototype for the worse, and the weight of the F-15 was always stronger than the f-16, although it is lighter
    3. The comment was deleted.
  6. +1
    19 February 2015 07: 25
    And why is nothing heard about the option of purchasing eurofighter by India? As far as I understand this option is also present among Indians.
    1. +1
      19 February 2015 13: 01
      Quote: Jack-B
      And why is nothing heard about the option of purchasing eurofighter by India? As far as I understand this option is also present among Indians.

      They have been getting married for a long time, but somehow they are not particularly interested in him.
      1. +3
        19 February 2015 13: 28
        well, why not, just between them the Indians chose for a long time, then, judging by the materials of the open press, the French "bribed" the Indians with something) Maybe they promised something more, no one will tell us)

        I also disagree with you about composites, the share of composites in Rafal is 25% and the weight saving is about 1000 kg, a pleasant thing, but not revolutionary, it’s easier to buy composites technology than to take a huge batch of fighters or ask the same accommodating Russians) For example in Obninsk, RT-Chemcomposite creates composites by sintering for the T-50, Superjet 100 and some other promising aircraft, and by the infusion method they make aviation parts in Ulyanovsk, for example, the wing for the MS-21 (by the way, this company is one of the five largest in a world with similar specifics) This is all based on open press materials.
        In general, it is difficult to compare two aircraft of different class, but some of Raphael's characteristics resemble ordinary advertising or a record for the sake of a record, such as 9.5 tons of combat load. It is not at all clear why such a "cheap" advertisement of a light fighter is, but it is clear how it was bought) Especially in the light of an empty mass of about 10 tons, and a normal takeoff mass of about 15 tons)

        On the radar, too, everything is not unambiguous, here you can talk and compare a lot, especially to listen to the Indians, they know everything in practice better than us and clearly understand that H011 can be exchanged for something more perfect and the pendulum swings unambiguously).
        In terms of armaments for working on the ground, here yes, Rafal wins and it's not all clear, the Scalps will probably be used piece by piece, unlike the more massive Russian bombs and missiles in a real conflict.
    2. gjv
      0
      19 February 2015 13: 38
      Quote: Jack-B
      And why is nothing heard about the option of purchasing eurofighter by India? As far as I understand this option is also present among Indians.

      Eurofighter is also more compact, in comparison with the Su-30MKI, but also does not have a marine option. And in comparison with Rafal, Eurofighter is more metallic, heavy, respectively. the landing mileage is greater, and the combat radius and combat load are less.
      In addition, to control certain types of missiles, Eurofayter, like the Su-30MKI, needs to suspend additional REO containers, which reduces the overall combat load and forces more time to be planned and prepared for combat use.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  7. +1
    19 February 2015 07: 41
    Nobody knows why the price so jumped, from 65 to 120 million? The amount is decent ...
    1. +2
      19 February 2015 12: 30
      Some time ago, the states at a reduced price "pushed" Apaches in the Turkish tender, and then began to supply spare parts for them. Guess at a normal price or ...?
    2. 0
      19 February 2015 13: 02
      Quote: ZAUS
      Nobody knows why the price so jumped, from 65 to 120 million? The amount is decent ...

      So it’s one thing to deliver finished aircraft, another to organize production with the transfer of technology.
  8. +1
    19 February 2015 08: 00
    Quote: ZAUS
    Nobody knows why the price so jumped, from 65 to 120 million? The amount is decent ...

    I would emphasize - "decently not decent" !!!
  9. 0
    19 February 2015 09: 00
    So Hindus, like Migi, ours used to have, and something else, so why retrain for Western models?
    1. gjv
      0
      19 February 2015 13: 58
      Quote: gla172
      So Hindus, like Migi, ours used to have, and something else, so why retrain for Western models?

      Why were there? And now there is. However, see if today it is possible to effectively fight on the MiG-21 and MiG-27, and whether it is worth investing heavily in extending their service life. Here the Indians looked, thought and chose the transition to more modern types. They chose the Su-30 MKI, and their MiG-29s will probably still be modernized. They are building their "diamond" Tejases. But Rafal was also chosen for development - in terms of parameters, apparently, he arranged them better. And here it is more likely not to compare with the Su-30, but to understand why their MiG-29K or MiG-35 did not suit.
      1. 0
        19 February 2015 16: 04
        Here are the Su-30 MKI chosen, and their MiG-29 will probably still be upgraded
        Already Mig-29 Indians are modernizing
        MiG-29UPG (9-20) - modernization of the MiG-29B for the Indian Air Force. Includes installation of an additional conformal dorsal fuel tank. and refueling equipment in the air, the installation of RD-33M-3 engines, the inertial navigation system of the French company Thales, the Zhuk-M2E weapon control radar, the OLS-UEM optical system, the helmet-mounted target designation system of the Israeli company Elbit, the updating of radio navigation systems, as well as a new “glass cabin” with multi-function LCD displays. The range of weapons will be expanded with the Kh-29T / L, Kh-31A / P and Kh-35 missiles.
        but to understand why their MiG-29K or MiG-35 did not work.
        India purchased 45 Mig-29K
    2. gjv
      0
      19 February 2015 13: 58
      Quote: gla172
      So Hindus, like Migi, ours used to have, and something else, so why retrain for Western models?

      Why were there? And now there is. However, see if today it is possible to effectively fight on the MiG-21 and MiG-27, and whether it is worth investing heavily in extending their service life. Here the Indians looked, thought and chose the transition to more modern types. They chose the Su-30 MKI, and their MiG-29s will probably still be modernized. They are building their "diamond" Tejases. But Rafal was also chosen for development - in terms of parameters, apparently, he arranged them better. And here it is more likely not to compare with the Su-30, but to understand why their MiG-29K or MiG-35 did not suit.
  10. +1
    19 February 2015 09: 21
    Most likely an undercover fight for kickbacks.
  11. +3
    19 February 2015 09: 21
    the French themselves are to blame, sharply inflated prices, refuse certain guarantees and escorts (in the Indian sense of course), the whole world has shown that, in order to satisfy political ambitions, an existing contract can be frozen.
    The attempt to buy something that is not Russian is explained very simply, the Indians themselves stated this - we do not want to put all the eggs in one basket, we do not need a Russian sample, as a certain counterweight to the Su-30MKI, which does not detract at all from the fact that the Su-30 is beautiful and held combat vehicle with great modernization potential that the Indians bought a HUGE series.
  12. +1
    19 February 2015 10: 12
    Well done "Dassault" do not follow the lead of the Indians. Stale office.
  13. +2
    19 February 2015 10: 31
    Here, the mistral factor also plays an important role, the Indians just decided to blackmail the French))), they say, "everyone saw that you are an unreliable office ... maybe lower prices, otherwise we won't take it" !!! And I think that everyone bought weapons from France, began to look at her with apprehension)) !!!
    1. -2
      19 February 2015 17: 56
      Quote: igorka357
      There is also the Mistral factor plays an important role, the Indians simply decided to blackmail the French))

      Does not play
  14. +1
    19 February 2015 12: 24
    In addition to the exorbitantly high prices for Rafali, many lose sight of the moment of subsequent supply and equipment of these aircraft, as well as those services. And everything is also very foggy, both with the supply of weapons for these fighters, and with the provision of spare parts for those services. systematically destroying their reputation as a reliable seller of weapons and this is a fact. Raising the prices of already concluded aircraft is another step of France’s not smart arms trade policy.
    1. 0
      19 February 2015 16: 57
      Here I agree with you. French with service and spare parts -
      ...Not really. In this sense, the Americans are ahead of everyone. Equipment
      it may be non-luxury, but the spare part will be delivered very quickly, without any red tape.
  15. 0
    19 February 2015 12: 48
    Quote: Chignoner
    French planes have always been pretty good. It is enough to recall the track record of Mirages in the Middle East. Regarding the contract with India, I would have waited a couple of years in the place of the Indians and purchased the F-35, a full-fledged 5th generation aircraft. According to the characteristics of Rafalu to F-35 not reach


    let’s my friend, everyone will be in their place!
    And to the Indians - respect and respect hi ... understand that "it is better to find a clever one than with a cowardly fool" ... Yes
  16. +1
    19 February 2015 14: 44
    The Mistral tears will pour off to the Frogs ... It is clear that Hollande is a ped ... ik, but hard workers are really sorry ...
  17. bright
    0
    19 February 2015 15: 05
    Quote: Nayhas
    Quote: qwert
    Surpasses in all respects except

    Well, let's count the "except":

    A radar on the Su-30MKI N011 Bars openly loses a radar with an AFAR RBE 2 on Rafal (in range, along tracks simultaneously tracked, on ground work), which in principle is natural because the latter is much younger, but in any case Rafal has an advantage.
    According to the nomenclature of weapons, the Su-30MKI remained in the 20th century and it has nothing equal to the Storm Shadow-SCALP EG, AASM-Hammer, GBU-12 Paveway II, GBU-24 Paveway III.
    Now you can list the superior parameters of the Su-30MKI.

    Quote: qwert
    By the fact that with an equal combat load the Su-30 has a significantly larger radius of action, such a paradox.

    Justify, I hope the nonsense that you wove on "TV" will not lead.
    The maximum combat radius of the Su-30MKI is 4000 km, and the Rafale about 2000.

    The combat radius of the Su-30MK is 1500 km, of Rafal 1800 km. Even the flight range according to the Irkut Corporation at the Su-30MK 3000km. http://www.irkut.com/products/18/238/
    Rafal has a flight range of 3700km.
    But for machines equipped with a refueling system in the air, these parameters are not particularly important.

    Did Rafal win the contest with AFE RBE 2? Bars VFAR has its own advantages and disadvantages compared to the AFE RBE.
    Does Rafal have an OLS?
    Does Rafal drag Brahmos?
    Rafal is a nice car, but very expensive. Su-30mki also has a chance, especially if I am not mistaken Irkut is preparing an upgrade for it.
    1. gjv
      -1
      19 February 2015 16: 20
      Quote: bright
      Rafal is a nice car, but very expensive. Su-30mki also has a chance, especially if I am not mistaken Irkut is preparing an upgrade for it.

      Rafal - compact and lightweight, has a marine version. Hindus want to develop a maritime base. Rafal should not be compared to the Su-30, but to think if something can be done with the MiG-29K / KUB and MiG-35 so that India's choice switches to them. And the Indians fly on the MiG-29, i.e. opportunities represent him well. And the MiG-35 is still larger and heavier than Rafal, and the combat load of the MiG is less. And for the most part, the MiG aluminum case is not the best solution for the marine climate.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  18. 0
    19 February 2015 17: 17
    Quote: qwert
    Quote: silver169
    the Rafale contract, for example, to offer a discount on the Su-30MKI.

    As practice shows: a bribe is more reliable than a discount

    Why bribe. Show them the "Peculiarities of the National Hunt" how even cows can be transported in a bomb bay if it is split correctly and that's it, our contract.
  19. +1
    19 February 2015 20: 54
    Recall that negotiations between India and France on the supply of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters have been ongoing since the beginning of 2012, when the French aircraft was declared the winner of the MMRCA tender. Over the past time, the parties have not been able to agree and sign a contract.

    An instructive example for the Indian side will be the Russian contract with the Mistrals.

    India is a country of wise people. And the relationship of the Gandhi Family with the leadership of the USSR (Russia) is sure that it does not write off, but extracts everything positive.
  20. 0
    26 February 2015 10: 05
    So, it seems, flashed in the press that the Indians still
    signed a contract with the French?
  21. 0
    28 February 2015 16: 18
    For our air force, rafal is the most!

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"