Saxon saber of the XVI century

Length (total) 124,5 cm. Blade length 102 cm. Weight 1,6 kg. Made around 1590 in Saxony.

Early and rare in Western Europe at that time weapon with a curved blade, which combines a complex guard with protective arms of late bastards and then a rapier and a curved saber blade.

Late one-and-a-half sword (bastard). Saxony. Around 1570-1580

Rapier with open hilt. Handle from Northern Italy. Blade of Solingen or Augsburg. Around 1590-1600

The end of the handle and the protective arms are decorated with gilded lion heads, and the handle with skillful miniatures.

This is not the coat of arms of Russia. This two-headed eagle was depicted on the coat of arms of the holy Roman Empire from the 30-s. XV century. It can be assumed that at the time of manufacture (decoration) of this saber the owner was in the imperial service. Although one image on the blade to draw such conclusions would be wrong.

The image of an eagle on the other side of the blade. Above the eagle is a crown - an ancient symbol of royal power.

Under the eagle - the coat of arms depicting a lion. Perhaps the family coat of arms of the owner.

On the other side of the lion some kind of fat and without a tail.

See also:

Nimcha: http://topwar.ru/65759-nimcha.html.

Ceremonial sword of Louis XVI: http://topwar.ru/65513-paradnyy-mech-lyudovika-xvi.html.

Rapier: http://topwar.ru/54888-rapira-inkrustirovannaya-serebrom-nachala-xvii-v.html.

Katana daimyo of the 16th century Toyotomi family: http://topwar.ru/46998-katana-dayme-roda-toetomi-xvi-veka.html.

Comments

[calocha]

This is not like a lion, but some kind of bear.

[atos_kin]

The double-headed eagle, the bear ... Oh, I feel it could not have done without Russia, again, the curvature, atypical for those parts

[Midshipman]

Take it higher - it could not do without Putin

[Max_Bauder]

Quote: Midshipman

Take it higher - it could not do without Putin

[Civil]

Quote: atos_kin

The double-headed eagle, the bear ... Oh, I feel it could not have done without Russia, again, the curvature, atypical for those parts

Give a new emblem!

[calocha]

Sperli from Ivan .. or bought ...

[290980]

Quote: atos_kin

Double eagle, bear ... Oh, I feel it could not do without Russia, again, the curvature, atypical for those parts

You will be surprised, but on the coat of arms of the most ancient Germany (2030 years) a two-headed eagle is depicted.

[Spnsr]

Quote: 290980

Quote: atos_kin

Double eagle, bear ... Oh, I feel it could not do without Russia, again, the curvature, atypical for those parts

You’ll be surprised, but the double-headed eagle is depicted on the coat of arms of the most ancient Germany (2030 years).

Well, so no wonder! they say there are still former settlements of the Slavs. Moreover, it is permissible that there was one empire and that Germany now once went through the same things that Ukraine is going through now, when the Russians became Ukrainians, and the witch hunt of those times is a hunt for FSB agents in present-day Ukraine. ..
at least, if we proceed from the concept of philosophy, all events proceed in a spiral, only spaced in time and space, and with a touch of the developmental stage characteristic of time ...

[gladcu2]

You don’t have to joke like that. The roof is already not stable. Do not know where to look for the truth.

[Spnsr]

Quote: gladcu2

You don’t have to joke like that. The roof is already not stable. Do not know where to look for the truth.

the first Rome - Vladimir - even a consonant name! and all the great migrations, there were 4 of them, sort of, were from the east

[Rarog]

Quote: SpnSr

Quote: 290980

Quote: atos_kin

Double eagle, bear ... Oh, I feel it could not do without Russia, again, the curvature, atypical for those parts

You’ll be surprised, but the double-headed eagle is depicted on the coat of arms of the most ancient Germany (2030 years).

Well, so no wonder! they say there are still former settlements of the Slavs.

Many linguists and historians, both ours and foreign, are of the opinion that Berlin was founded by the Slavs, there are excavations (within the city) of ancient settlements with clearly Slavic affiliation.

There is reason to believe that the name of the city itself was given by our ancestors (there are two options):
1) Ber is a bear (Old Slavic / Indo-European), the word bear / potapych / owner was used to replace the true name of this animal due to the fact that the Bear was a totem / sacred animal for our ancestors. Remember the word "BERlog" - a bear's den, and doubts will disappear immediately. The word "Lin" is more complicated here, there are no completely identical modern analogs, as an option - "LINE"; "lie", hence the "rookery". Berlin.
2) According to another version, the name "Berlin" (like others with a shock -in - Schwerin, Stettin) is of Slavic origin and goes back to Polabsky berl- / birl - "swamp". From the similar Indo-European root wern- / werl - "marshland".

PS Well, the North and North-East of modern Germany, its Baltic coast, the German and Danish islands are strewn with excavations of Slavic settlements, excavations on the island of Rügen are especially significant here - the most likely birthplace of Varyag Rurik - most likely the grandson of Gostomsl (one of the Princes of the North of Russia), whose daughter was the wife of the Obodrit prince. The Varangians are either one of the Obodrit tribes, or a "military structure", so to speak, Obodritov. The Scandinavians did not even stand there. The future Swedes could not bring statehood to Russia, without having it for a long time after the arrival of the legendary Rurik on Ladoga. If desired, detailed information can always be found on the net, for those who are interested in questions of ancient Russia I recommend - "reformat".

[izGOI]

There is also an opinion that the word "Berlin" in the language of one of the Slavic tribes means "dam", "dam".

[Alex]

Quote: 290980

on the coat of arms of the most ancient Germany (2030let) a two-headed eagle is depicted.

In general, nothing surprising. The Holy Roman Empire led its lineage from the Roman Empire, and there the eagles, both two-headed and one-headed, are a well-established symbol.

[Spnsr]

Quote: calocha

On the other side of the lion some kind of fat and without a tail.

On the other side of the lion some kind of fat and without a tail.

- this is a bear!
Fomenko and Nosovsky are right along the way
and the double-headed eagle is like looking at what was the Roman Empire, and the lion is the coat of arms of Vladimir!

[aszzz888]

Just a sight for sore eyes!
Very cool job!

[Grigorievich]

Beauty, nothing to add.
Interesting: one master did everything and how much time went into making this saber?

[skullcap]

Quote: Grigorievich

Interesting: one master did everything and how much time went into making this saber?

In fact, the blade is more suitable for a checker, rather than a saber. At a saber it is much more bent. I can’t insert a photo, but anyone can independently find a photo of the saber and compare the blades.

[Igarr]

a checker does not imply a developed guard.
a checker does not contain so many dol, right? And here they are very fantastically developed.
...
I liked the saber. Highly. Obviously, the master did not just do an ordinary order, but with imagination - both at the customer and the performer.
Saxony - near the Czech Republic, the masters are not weak.

[Aljavad]

In fact, the blade is more suitable for a checker, rather than a saber. At a saber it is much more bent. I can’t insert a photo, but anyone can independently find a photo of the saber and compare the blades.

The very first sabers actually had straight blade. Just sharpening - one-sided and with a handle connection - at an angle. Checker - later and another tradition. And sabers in Europe were distinguished: Polish, Hungarian and Turkish (the most "crooked").

[Alex]

Quote: Grigorievich

Interesting: one master did everything

Judging by the description, the blade is from Solingen, and the handle was made elsewhere, maybe in Saxony. Such cooperation in the Middle Ages is quite in the spirit of that time. But a good blade was made for quite some time, sometimes up to a year (not to mention exclusive things, there time was not limited at all).

[Kir]

And what a good blade is now doing faster, and the division of labor is the same and nowhere has gone.

[kyznets]

Made by several masters of different qualifications and directions. The blade itself was made by one master. This refers to forging, setting the shape, heat treatment, lapping the blade. The handle - the workpiece - the second, the master is simpler. Well, directly casting gilding, carving, assembly, etc. bows, the third (minimum, or maybe a few more). Although all of the above could be made by the masters of one workshop, the owner set his only name as author’s bark. Even Cellini did not make his works alone, although the brand is worth it. The specifics of production - to reduce the cost of production and reduce production time requires a division of labor.

[padonok.71]

A strange blade. General outlines, bend, "pistol" grip, double fuller, sort of like an early "Hungarian" or eastern "Russian", or shamshir. But the dating, 16c, is a bit late for all of the above. And even a bastard hilt. And Saxony too. Unclear. Can't it be that the hilt, hilt, embossing / gilding on the first third of the blade was made in the 16th century, and the blade of the century is so 14-15? Experts help!

[Igarr]

not an expert.
but, a simple selection of all that was noted, Roman, already suggests that it was rather long-lived.
On the blade, originally alien to the mentality of Saxony, they hung in turn to whom it wandered. Decorated.
Maybe the blade itself was reforged. Anachronism for complete. Some emblems are worth something.
Oh, I found the concept - tuning. The owners tuned the saber. For lack of Lada ...
...
Just a beautiful thing.
Tipo, Crystal Skulls

[padonok.71]

All the same, I think that a certain master proaprated the Hungarian that he got. Maybe under the order, maybe ts. optional. Only in time "does not beat". Therefore, I concluded that the handle was fitted much later, most likely instead of the native one. Than in my opinion the Hungarian was killed. The balance is gone, the grip has changed, the famous Hungarian stretches have become impossible. Incl. such a dubious tuning came out. Although I look at the "churkomobiles" .... nothing has changed.

[Sirocco]

Quote: padonok.71

All the same, I think that a certain master appraised the Hungarian he came across.

Pay attention, from the middle of the blade, the impression is that it was a broadsword, which the Akurat broke in the middle, and then maybe the master welded (BATTERY) what he did.

[padonok.71]

The ruler was applied - the first third is straight from the cross, with a tilt (towards the blade). No, not a broadsword. It is a saber blade and it is Eastern European, maybe Russian.

[Aljavad]

http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/79/1034722-m26271388.html

All the same, I think that a certain master appraised the Hungarian he came across.

Conclusion:
Type and blade and hilt - typical of central Europe in the 16th century.

[Cat]

I have the impression that the blade itself is clearly of Eastern European or even Middle Eastern origin. Pay attention to the characteristic ornament at the bottom. It is hard to see in the photo, but it looks like the gilding in the upper part with eagles and "bears" was done later and was inscribed in the already existing pattern.

[Aljavad]

It can’t be that the hilt, hilt, embossing / gilding on the first third of the blade was made in the 16th century, and the blade of the century is 14-15? Experts help!

A good blade lived for a long time. Could change both the hilt and decor.

[Mikhail3]

Quote: padonok.71

A strange blade. General outlines, bend, "pistol" grip, double fuller, sort of like an early "Hungarian" or eastern "Russian", or shamshir. But the dating, 16c, is a bit late for all of the above. And even a bastard hilt. And Saxony too. Unclear. Can't it be that the hilt, hilt, embossing / gilding on the first third of the blade was made in the 16th century, and the blade of the century is so 14-15? Experts help!

I'm not an expert, but of course I can. True, as a rule, it was the blade that fell into disrepair at the "working tool". So the next blade was planted on a rich handle. But this is if the worker. And if you just need an entourage? To a public place to walk, proudly twisting a mustache? To nail the wall, they say, the weapon is ancient. generic, formidable ... Etc. Well, or generally just - the assembly is modern. To rummage through European ruins, there are mountains of this good, to blind one from several. What for?
And then, that any mention of the blade increases its value. So, unremarkable samples of different centuries, being connected, have raised questions from you. You look, questions along with a photo, where else will they get. So the "portfolio" grows at the blade, and with it the price.

[padonok.71]

Well, the "pricing" of antique blades is somewhat different. And about the most expensive units, not you, not me, never, anywhere - they do not write about it and do not put it on public display.
A working tool - with such gilding? Hardly.
Ancestral, ancient? Saxony? Then Caroling, and not this miracle of judo.
But to go to the promenade, to poke fun at the townspeople, or noble women (what the hell is not joking) - yes. It is possible. Type wonder what a ninja I am! What a sword I have! Come to my boudoir, dear young lady, I still have a lot of interesting things there.

[Artyom]

Yes, if you look closely, that is, some kind of absurdity. Garda does not fit in with the blade and hilt. It seems that they made a gift to someone, they found a quality blade, guard, hilt and voila! Like a cool saber, such a gypsy present, the main thing is more gold!

[padonok.71]

Well, at that time, not so tsigansky. Then all this tinsel passion was loved. In Liege, I saw a suit of some sort of "Louis / Philippe-5 / 25th", this is PAVLIN! I will report back to you. Any African leader / king / president would have hanged himself with envy!

[Egor65g]

Pretty boy! Swords used to do, like paintings painted.

[Evil Bobblehead]

Handsomely. I put a plus.

[alex-cn]

Beautiful weapon. The presence of a double-headed eagle and a bear, and not a saber made for a gift in Russia?

[alex shnajder]

double-headed eagle is a very common symbol in the heraldry of Europe.

[wef]

The Haubsburgs, for example, had a coat of arms with a double-headed eagle, influenced Saxony, and had family ties.
In general, an eagle with two heads was very common. Hittites, Persians, Huns, Arabs ... Met in Spain. There is evidence that was used in the Golden Horde.

[Cat]

I confirm !!!

[padonok.71]

The bear in the north of Europe is a frequent "guest" on heraldic shields. And in other matters, and on the fighting too. Century since the 9th. The Slavs and the Russians tried not to deal with this beast (in the sense of not portraying or talking). The owner, the taptyga, the clubfoot tried to speak like this, and not directly, the bear. Since paganism it has become a tradition, there are strong religious "troubles" on this topic. In some northern regions, this is still the case.

[Alex]

Quote: padonok.71

The bear in the north of Europe is a frequent "guest" on heraldic shields.

EMNIP, the coat of arms of Berlin is also a bear. And what, the animal is strong, independent, serious - than not a heraldic beast.

[padonok.71]

And the German essence is the Scandinavians. Generic memory works. And Berlin is the essence of the city of Russinsky. Chesslovlo!

[Kir]

In a rough translation, the Scandinavians are hardy, and then not only relatives of the Germans are Swedes. With regards to Berlin, it is more accurate to talk about West Slavic roots than about Russians, and indeed the Germans and I are fairly close relatives.

[Cat]

I will supplement with another anolygy - the city of Bern (the city of Bear). One of the capitals of the Western Slavs, now the capital of Switzerland.

[Kir]

Well, Switzerland is not an indicator at all, since the main carriers of culture there come from neighboring countries, and mainly from Germany or France, and therefore it is more likely that Germans gave their name.

[vomag]

Or rather, they tried not to say BER because Misha and the tramp and clubfoot, but the bear still lived in the den

[padonok.71]

Well, I haven’t gotten so far. Speech is not about that. And so the bear then, the witch and then he lived in a den, and he doesn’t disdain a humane))) And the ancestors understood these matters in our affairs.

[Kir]

Thanks to the author for the material, and from myself I will add an ornament most likely etching (determined by the lines), the heads are exactly cast. Regarding the delight:
Beautiful weapon .........
To be honest, I have a bad attitude for a long time already towards ceremonial blades, and then the "gizmos" of this segment are more elegantly made.

[Region-25.rus]

Quote: SpnSr

Quote: calocha

On the other side of the lion some kind of fat and without a tail.

On the other side of the lion some kind of fat and without a tail.

- this is a bear!
Fomenko and Nosovsky are right along the way
and the double-headed eagle is like looking at what was the Roman Empire, and the lion is the coat of arms of Vladimir!

I support! I myself have been digging the "New Chronology" for a long time .... Therefore, to modern history, especially in modern attempts to rewrite the newest, I feel oh what a skeptical opinion)))

[Igarr]

Dear editors ...
Having returned to the material about this blade, which so excited the members of the forum I knew, I would like to ask -
for a long time you have not thrown "firewood" into the "flame of history".
Here again there were references to the New Chronology. Again, someone strongly rated the adherents of HX.
Why not bring such an interesting topic as neutral as possible - not just to start cutting, but just a discussion.
New Chronology, I mean.
No need to talk about historical reconstruction in the style of HX. She just is - a bellie incident, for everyone.
And just an apparatus, just an analysis of the zodiacs, just Morozov’s research, in conjunction with HX.
How do you like this offer?

[Cat]

The first two-headed eagles on the symbols of power appeared in the days of Kievan Rus. One of the earliest images of a two-headed eagle on the coat of Prince Yaroslav. And on the coat of his son depicts a single-headed eagle? http://www.gerb.bel.ru/pages/russia/img/freska_3.gif

[Igarr]

Vladislav, hi ..
I, it seems, spasms begin, on one behalf Grushevsky .... idiosyncrasy.
We look at the illustration. What do we see?
"..not preserved fresco of St. Sophia Cathedral. Illustrated story Ukraine"
..
in one signature - two nonsense ....
Where did it come from and who saw the UNSERVED Mural.
Since when did the history of Ukraine in general go to decorate it with images of the Byzantine era.
Grushevsky ..... hmm ...

[Cat]

Is it paradoxical? I was preparing material on the history of heraldry in Russia and came across this fresco, and on the official website of the Belgorod region. I didn’t get enough killed two months to check the specified information. The guys took out a couple of grandmothers and one grandfather in Kiev, who confirmed that they had seen a similar fresco before the Second World War. But no one could remember the presence of coats of arms. But a month ago, in the Urals, I ran into a 96-year-old Dedka, an ethnic "khokhl" who lived in Kiev and Chernigov until 37. I showed him the drawing. He confirmed to me that something similar in "Sophia - saw, however," and tried to orient me "on the right wall, at the royal gates." The presence of eagles on their cloaks, he does not remember, explained "the time was different, son, I am a communist .......". Therefore, honestly - I don't know whether to believe or not.
But if you take it subjectively - why not. The beginning of Orthodoxy in Russia Mother. I emphasize - RUSI. Yaroslav - the SECOND prince after the baptism of this - Russia Vladimir Svyatoslavovich - Red Sun. It is clear that the temple was painted by the Byzantine (Greek) monks, in their traditions and rules. Why do not they endow the kagan (prince) of Yaroslav with the imperial symbolism !!!

[voyaka uh]

"Where did it come from and who saw it - UNPOSED fresco" ///

Why is it incomprehensible? Before the photo appeared,
historians and archaeologists have necessarily redrawn texts from the walls of buildings,
frescoes, coats of arms. And the original itself could since then have disappeared (wars, fires,
earthquakes, vandals or thieves).
And only a copy became historical evidence.

[Kir]

Yes, draftsmen were attributed to the expeditions, although considering who led these expeditions, people were not from the poor, they knew how to draw themselves.

[Cat]

Kiev Sofia was blown up by the Nazis during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The cathedral has been studied for archeology since the late 19th century. After the war, excavations were carried out several times, including by academician Rybakov. But no matter how sour everything is, archival sources of excavations, lists of frescoes, a significant part of the artifacts are currently located in Kiev. My request from 19.09.2014/XNUMX/XNUMX was simply ignored. To reach the author, it also did not work - I apparently did not come out with a muzzle. Although acquaintances from Kiev through whom I sent a request and tried to reach eyewitnesses of the fresco, drew my attention to the coat of arms of Chernigov - "two-headed eagle". I checked it - it's true!

Although there are earlier images of the "two-headed eagle" - for example, on the coins of the khans of the great and golden horde.

[Kir]

Next, let's remember the coat of arms of Albania and Holy Roman, then why hide the artifacts if they show the greatness of Ukraine ?, it means there is something that does not correspond to the bravura statements, it remains to wait when some force majeure happens to the originals, well, then the World will be shown either fakes, or copies from "real artifacts" made by "unknown masters".

[Aljavad]

Where did it come from and who saw the UNSERVED Mural.

The UNSECURED today mural was seen and sketched (how adequately?) Earlier.
Many unpreserved monuments have survived in various kinds of images and descriptions. You have to be careful with them. Yes, there was a Rhodes colossus - "on feet of clay." Or rather? Who knows him! It was long ago ...

[Kir]

Well, what kind of Kiev, if you forgive me, they appeared as a symbol of continuity in Moscow from Sophia Paleologus of grandmother John IV, and Byzantium finally collapsed in the 14th century. According to Orthodoxy, North Russia turned out to be older.

[Igarr]

Guys, not preserved - that means, seen and lost. So, somewhere it was fixed, by someone, in some kind of work. That's why its value is increasing. That’s why the links are given - there and there, during the expedition of such and such, or published in such and such work for the first time.
And I'm purely about the note to the drawing - not preserved. Like, it was so, but no one will prove anything now, take your word for it.
Some kind of thimble, Grushevsky Misha .... and the publication that published his materials in 1997.

[Arktidianets]

Elegant thing