T-72B3 - budget upgrade with outdated dynamic protection

Due to financial constraints, the Russian army refused to supply the upgraded T-72B2 "Slingshot", which is still considered one of the best options for upgrading the T-72. Instead, the troops began to receive a budget upgrade of the T-72B3, the main disadvantage of which is the outdated dynamic protection, reports "Messenger of Mordovia".

As well as the “Slingshot, the tank is equipped with a Sosna-U sight, with new means of communication, a wind sensor, a complex of protection against weapons mass destruction and advanced weapon stabilizer. In addition, the automatic loader was reworked for new ammunition. The improved chassis has got parallel-track tracks. True, the power unit remained the same as on the T-72B, power 840 hp

However, if the Slingshot received a dynamic protection of the Relic, a new generation that opposes the most modern anti-tank weapons, then the T-72B3 is equipped with the outdated Contact-5 system, which appeared on the T-72 in 1988.

Outdated dynamic protection migrated to the new version of the T-72B3, which was first shown on a tank biathlon this year. For some reason, the military does not buy "Relic", but are content with outdated "Contact", which is ineffective against modern weapons.

Comments

[Byshido_dis]

For some reason, the military does not buy Relic, but is content with the outdated Contact, which is ineffective against modern weapons.

Apparently according to the test results "Contact" if worse, then not much. And it makes no sense to spend 3-4 times more for the "Relic". It's like one of the options. All the same, the truth will not be known to us. And at the headquarters, they are not fools and they understand better than us what is better. And article with double bottom. For the reasons described above.

[Giant thought]

Our great military commanders should be concerned about the conversion of our tanks to a more modern dynamic defense.

[i80186]

Yes, the main drawback there is a pancake TKN-3M. This is really a drawback. He still hangs there with the T-62.

[hz123]

if at least half of the rumors are true, then it will not be a relic, but something fundamentally new

[user1212]

"Malachite" is called. But these are rumors. Everything is classified

[yushch]

Or maybe it’s easier. They don’t want to spend big money on modernization, because waiting for Armata?

[tomket]

Quote: yushch

Or maybe it’s easier. They don’t want to spend big money on modernization, because waiting for Armata?

Or maybe it’s still easier? There are many soldiers, but few budgets .....

[yushch]

Everything can be. This is only a version.
And you, I look pessimist? Or an informed optimist? =)

[ya.seliwerstov2013]

Quote: yushch

. waiting for Armata?

A radical modernization of the T-90 tank could put an end to the development program of the new generation main battle tank "Armata". The new T-14 Armata tank, which has not yet even been presented to the general public, drew criticism from the military. There are two reasons for this - the overpriced Uralvagonzavod and the inconsistency with the approved specifications.

In this regard, a variant of a radical modernization of the T-90 main battle tank is being worked out using developments within the framework of the T-14 "Armata" project.

As a high-ranking source in the Ministry of Defense told Gazeta.Ru, the military was not satisfied with the price of production samples and the characteristics of the prototype T-14 Armata. “We have two claims: one is economic and the other is technological. The overpricing is not at times, but significant. At the same time, no intelligible grounds for such an overestimate were presented to us, ”the source said.

http://www.military-informant.com/news/7778-tank-t-90-mozhet-pokhoronit-proekt-a

rmata.html

[ya.seliwerstov2013]

All the best developments were concentrated in "Slingshot". The Sosna-U sight is equipped with an automatic target tracking. A new gun with improved characteristics - 2A46M-5 with a device for calibrating the thermal bending of the barrel, this increases the firing accuracy.

Engine - В-92С2 with a capacity of 1000 hp The auxiliary power unit, which provides power to the tank systems in parking lots and combat positions, without turning on the main power plant, saves the B-92C2 resource, and also contributes to the vehicle’s stealth. The work of the driver is facilitated by a semi-automatic gear shift.

[Alekseev]

Quote: Byshido_dis

But at the headquarters, no fools sit and understand better than us, which is better

But this is not a fact!
Let us recall the unkind words of Perdyukov and Makarka with their thieving women.
But as for the aforementioned modification of the T-72, a sufficient number of copies have already been broken.
Who wants to, you can ask.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Alekseev

Let us recall the unkind words of Perdyukov and Makarka with their thieving women.

Is it they who make Shoigu so modernize the tanks?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alekseev

Let us recall the unkind words of Perdyukov and Makarka with their thieving women.

Ahem ... if it weren’t for Serdyukov’s decision to abandon the purchase of the T-90 and begin mass modernization of the T-72, the army would still receive 60-65 tanks a year. And so it would go 42 msd on the T-62, and 18 pulad - on the T-55.

The problem is that in our army, by the time Serdyukov arrived, it was necessary to massively change tanks in almost all parts, except perhaps the court (15 years of the break did not go in vain). And it was necessary to do this, fitting into the budget of past years. So we chose the budget T-72BZ, which you can buy 200-250 pieces a year.

[Alekseev]

Quote: Spade

Is it they who make Shoigu so modernize the tanks?

Shoiga is a minister, he didn’t serve in the army, he doesn’t look like a marshal, he “looks shorter” about questions, and modernization of tanks is a very specific matter.
The task for specialists in the SV and tank troops, in particular.
I already wrote that for those interested in the T-72M3 a cart with broken spears on the "VO" a little earlier, there one of our tankers, in my opinion Alex, started such a storm, everything was arranged on the shelves ...

Quote: Alexey RA

if it were not for Serdyukov’s decision to abandon the purchase of T-90 and begin mass modernization of the T-72, the army would still receive 60-65 tanks a year. And so it would go 42 msd on the T-62, and 18 pulad - on the T-55.

Not sure!
How many T-80, T-72 are we holding? It would be enough for both 42 msd and 18 pulads.
But you need to upgrade the T-72, of course. At least to maintain in the form of UVZ, since he was assigned this business.
The whole question is how?(By the way, the same expression exactly fits the Perdyukites with their pseudo-reforms)
I advise you to visit the aforementioned cart with broken spears.
There are opinions that this modernization has drawbacks that could have been avoided.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alekseev

How many T-80, T-72 are we holding? It would be enough for both 42 msd and 18 pulads.

You can forget about the T-80. Their manufacturer died a heroic death in unequal battles against domestic capitalism. So - "exploit until the resource is exhausted." In addition, the GTE is a complex and capricious thing.

Only one T-72 remains. The problem is that the T-72s in storage are already out of date. And change the flea for soap - there is no special meaning. Actually, the T-62 at 42 msd remained because the T-72, with which it could be armed from the warehouses, did not have special advantages. So the T-72 from storage in any way will have to not only be mothballed, but also upgraded.

Quote: Alekseev

But you need to upgrade the T-72, of course. At least to maintain in the form of UVZ, since he was assigned this business.
The whole question is how? (By the way, this same expression exactly fits the Perdyuk people with their pseudo-reforms)

The problem is that the deep modernization of the T-72 requires the same deep investment. As a result, the modernized T-72 approaches the T-90 in terms of price and production time / quantity. And the RF Armed Forces are now facing a different task - to urgently provide the unit with a lot of tanks, at least minimally meeting modern requirements, otherwise the tank fleet will simply die. Therefore, we have to make such compromises in the form of a cheap mass T-72BZ with a "hole" in the forehead of the tower.

[Alekseev]

Quote: Alexey RA

Therefore, you have to make such compromises

You can not explain to me, I'm in the subject.
The question is that when upgrading according to the T-72B3 variant, there are a number of significant drawbacks that could have been avoided without increasing costs.
Again, I refer to the cart with spears.

[Zdishek]

So then to force the one who made this decision out of economy to write a funeral to the relatives of the dead tank crews (because of economy) and to read out before the formation of the tank regiment ...
So after all, the Arbat and Kremlin military districts do not go outside the cabinet without numerous guards

[GSH-18]

For some reason, the military does not buy Relic, but is content with the outdated Contact, which is ineffective against modern weapons.

It is clear for what "reasons". "Contact" in warehouses with a shaft. Until they write off, "Relic" will not be ordered.

[PROXOR]

Why bother discussing reactive armor, if in principle it should serve as the last line of defense. Everyone knows perfectly well that a tank becomes more or less "armored" when using active protection and applying the correct tactics of their use.

[Penelope]

The dynamic defense of our tanks must be improved, the life of our tankers depends on this.

[uwzek]

There can be no contact in the warehouses. Protection "contact-5" is built-in, it is welded onto the tank by pieces of iron.

[Tjeck]

I would look at your reasoning after burning in a tank ..

on the topic of what to say ..: bad, but I hope this is due to the imminent appearance of t-14, which will supersede all t-72 and t-80.

[Alex_Rarog]

Similarly, I think) they just save that bv then buy T14 in large quantities.

[Wheel]

Quote: Alex_Rarog

Similarly, I think) they just save that bv then buy T14 in large quantities.

Where is it, t-14?
A lot of noise and mouse fuss without a tangible result around a top-secret super-duper.
There was still no factory, or state, or, even more so, military tests, but already about some amounts of reasoning.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Tjeck

on the topic of what to say ..: bad, but I hope this is due to the imminent appearance of t-14, which will supersede all t-72 and t-80.

Will displace ALL drill T-72? Replace the whole tank farm of the country with Armata?

I assure you, it will not be soon.
Very soon, unfortunately.

[Crang]

Alexey run to get the T-14 first. Although it is most likely that the new tanks will first of all be given to those who really ride old cars. Type T-62. And surely among them there will be a certain number of guys who will say - "Damn where is my old T-62".

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Krang

Alex run to get the T-14 first.

Not Ivan ...
If the Homeland even hands me Armata (with two shell concussions), it means that it’s tight in the country.

The young get the way, they are comfortable to learn the new.
.................

And we, pensioners, if it’s itching for you, and not T-72B will be able to take a bit of fun (whoever doesn’t hide, we are not to blame).
Its shirt is closer to the body.

[Vacha1974]

Quote: Krang

Alexey run to get the T-14 first. Although it is most likely that the new tanks will first of all be given to those who really ride old cars. Type T-62. And surely among them there will be a certain number of guys who will say - "Damn where is my old T-62".

As far as I know, Shoigu ordered before the end of the year to decommission ace tanks older than T-72. So the T-62 is probably no longer in the troops.

[tomket]

Quote: Krang

Although it is likely that the new tanks will first of all be given to those who ride absolutely old cars. Type T-62.

Most likely Kantemirovtsam or Tamanians.

[g1v2]

The main issue is the price-quality ratio. We need to upgrade all thousands of T72 and not a couple of hundred pieces. If the choice is to put on all T72 Contact or a couple of hundred Relicts, then it is obvious that it is more profitable to upgrade all the tanks, all the more Relic also becomes obsolete quickly. The main thing for us now is the massive modernization, the more it is unlikely that the Relic will increase the survival of the tank, unlike Contact at times. And they say that the new system of protection din has already been developed.

[Zdishek]

You probably did not serve in the army? I don’t really understand the effectiveness of this modernization.
Imagine yourself in this "conditionally" modernized tank? Yes, save! But it is even more economical, not to modernize anything at all, as our president has been doing for the past fifteen years ...

[tomket]

Quote: Byshido_dis

And at the headquarters it’s not fools who sit and understand better than us,

Serdyukov for example ....

[Zdishek]

But why did they forget Makarova and Co.? There is no less of their creativity

[Cruorvult]

How much you can rub the same thing, everyone already knows. The relic is the same junk, if you think :-D

[Lord of the Sith]

Still missing one problem - Anti-aircraft machine gun lost the remote control and transferred to manual mode.

And in the conditions of urban battles - this is really a problem for the crew, given the recent wars are taking place in urban conditions.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Lord of the Sith

Still missing one problem - Anti-aircraft machine gun lost the remote control and transferred to manual mode.

Good day Sergey.

Unfortunately ZPU T-72 has never been remote. There has always been manual control.
Eheh ...

[Jin]

Quote: Aleks tv

Unfortunately ZPU T-72 has never been remote. There has always been manual control.
Eheh ..

Greetings! How many years! where did you disappear ???

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Jin

Greetings! How many years! where did you disappear ???

Glad to see, Eugene.


Yes, damn it, things are not to turn ...
So I go rarely.

[Jin]

Quote: Aleks tv

Yes, damn it, things are not to turn ...
So I go rarely.

Come on, more often !!! And then, the people of the "old", something is not very visible ... Today, on this thread, familiar faces)))

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Sith Lord

And in the conditions of urban battles - this is really a problem for the crew, given the recent wars are taking place in urban conditions.

Ahem ... if a tank in urban conditions is forced to fight back from the ZPU, then for this the commander of the attached motorized riflemen must you ... listen and you ... say sore. And the same thing must be done with the commander who drove the tank into the city without cover.

A tank without infantry in the city is a target. And the tank crew in city battle has many much more important matters than being distracted by firing from ZPU.

In general, the universalization of our BTT is an attempt to overcome the "birth trauma" of our army: poor interaction between the branches of the armed forces (aggravated by traditional problems with communication). So they fence "Muir and Meriliz" on tracks and wheels, trying to give the BTT the opportunity to fight all possible opponents alone.

[svp67]

Quote: Thought Giant

Our big military commanders should be concerned about the conversion of our tanks to a more modern dynamic defense

No problem, but the industry can do it quickly and in the right quantity, at a REASONABLE price? Or will it take time and money again to carry out production modernization?

[Knifebot.]

a tank does not live with a dynamic defense ...
the bet is that the tank will not enter the VET coverage area, well, statistically, they improved the aiming complex and provided for a new type of shells, and DZ according to the residual principle.

[Albert1988]

Well, recently, I observed two interesting facts.
The first is a video in which the militias in the Donbass demonstrated, if I am not mistaken in August, to journalists a tank "captured" from the Ukrainian army ... just one-to-one T-72B3 ...
The second fact, even rather not a fact, but at the level of rumors, was published on VO and RV like an interview with a former ukrotankist who surrendered to the militia, then he was released, etc. So this individual stated that the militiamen had already got "T-90"! They beat the tamers from great distances than they can aim normally, while it is difficult for tamers and other artifacts to break through them ...
All this, of course, is from the category of OBS ... But it makes you think a little ... about the "budget" modification ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Albert1988

The first is a video in which the militias in the Donbass demonstrated, if I am not mistaken in August, to journalists a tank "captured" from the Ukrainian army ... just one-to-one T-72B3 ...

Twice captured - for the Ukrainian media wrote that this tank was seized from militias shortly before.
And journalists should be driven for such filming. Not only was the inside filmed - it was also from the same point as the exhibition T-72BZ. There, a comparison can be made by a simple superposition - a coincidence of 80 percent. One block of "tales" brought out to the left is worth it.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Alexey RA

Twice captured - for the Ukrainian media wrote that this tank was seized from militias shortly before.

It happens))))

Quote: Alexey RA

And journalists need to be persecuted for such shootings.

Well, here the question is not for journalists - they don’t whip in technology, but rather you need to ask those guys from the militia that they allowed the car to be taken so close

[Steel loli]

This video is probably meant.

[Albert1988]

Well, yes, he is the most))

[Vadim237]

These are the very pseudo T 72B3.

[alecsis69]

Well, about that tanker, the article was more than dubious.

[Byshido_dis]

Take for example vaunted ambrams, did modern armor in Libya help them? Nope, they only burn on the way. And the relative increase in armor from Contact-5 is about 300mm for the cumulative. Once again, I can always blame the headquarters, but we will never know the full picture.

[Knifebot.]

there are no abrams in Libya, abrams in Iraq :)

then, there is no clear picture of how and why abrams burns. those shots that I saw - it was not a matter of the tank, but stupidly of how it was used. In general, at the moment there is not enough information to really evaluate the effectiveness of the abrams.

[Tan4ik]

Something I do not like.

[Lissyara]

To be honest, with the T-72 "Home Edition" the audience has already been "muddied". If memory serves, then about this tank the second dozen articles went.
But saving on your own aircraft is not good.

[Byshido_dis]

You understand that in Russia the tank park is the largest in the world! And to upgrade the DZ on all tanks is unrealistic; it’s better to build 5-6 RAPLs with this money, there will be more benefit.

[Su24]

Quote: Byshido_dis

You understand that in Russia the tank park is the largest in the world! And to upgrade the DZ on all tanks is unrealistic; it’s better to build 5-6 RAPLs with this money, there will be more benefit.

I don’t understand, but someone said that it is necessary to upgrade all the tanks? It was only about the T-72B.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Su24

I don’t understand, but someone said that it is necessary to upgrade all the tanks? It was only about the T-72B.

And this is the vast majority of tanks of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
Because the T-90 went into the army for only a few years and in a thin stream - 60-65 vehicles a year. And now the main machine after the reforms of Serdyukov is just the T-72 (before it were still T-62 and T-55).

[svp67]

Quote: Su24

It was only about the T-72B.

Do you know how many of them we had? And how many MBTs do you need now? And what to do with the existing fleet of T72, T72A, T72M, T8O, T80B, T80U? Do you need to upgrade them?

[tomket]

Quote: Byshido_dis

And to upgrade the DZ on all tanks is unrealistic, it is better to build an 5-6 rapl with this money, there will be more benefit.

As the park was equipped with the first sets of DZ, the plans for the modifications of the t-62 and t-55 were, and they rested only on the fact that the enterprises were loaded at the most I can not. We have that the factories are now loaded at the most I can not?

[oblako]

All weapons are "forged" on the basis of "cost-effectiveness" + compliance with the tasks being solved. Today, the ratio of criteria is probably such that it allows limiting the degree of modernization, saving money. That's life. Resources are always limited, of them for defense you always need to squeeze out the maximum, I think that one thing is good: the fact that decisions are made promptly. It cannot be otherwise.

[hz123]

are preparing to accept the armature, so they modernized to a minimum

[Knifebot.]

Well, as if actually correct.

The concept of a tank for "urban" combat, it seems to be not even formed, in this clearing there are still all sorts of ideas - like BMPT or TBMP, but what exactly a tank always needs is this means of observation, communications and a stabilizer, here there are definitely no two opinions. therefore b3. especially in anticipation of a new platform like ...

[Wheel]

Quote: knifebot

The concept of a tank for "urban" combat, it seems to be not even formed

Wrong.
The concept of a mountain / city tank was developed in the early 80's.
Design work was carried out.
Gorbachev buried.

[Knifebot.]

I know what was being done, but anyway, there is no solution at the moment - no.

[Crang]

The main thing is not DZ, but the main armor. DZ so - on the side-burn. But the meaning of the article is correct. The T-72B2 "Slingshot" is definitely better.

[Aleks tv]

Slingshot is not only different DZ.
There are still a lot of goodies.

By the way, in the photo to the article biathlon T-72Б3М.

[WE ARE MAKING]

Friends, let's be objective. This article does not give moral assessments, but only information. If modernization is not relevant enough for modern conditions, then this is certainly bad. But there is a plus - modernization is generally being carried out.

[Lopatov]

Quote: AGAIN

But there is a plus - modernization is generally being carried out.

This is not a plus, it is a minus. Because two upgrades are more expensive than one but adequate.

They chased the shaft to the detriment of efficiency. At the same time, it is fun to "master" budget funds.

[Knifebot.]

for efficiency there are t-90 and t-80.

[Lopatov]

Why then spend money on the T-72?

[Knifebot.]

then, that the T-72B, or even some "A" does not meet modern requirements at all in all respects. not only security, but fire control, communications, surveillance and ammunition.

minimum requirements are determined by the alleged and probable threats and the overall development of the technology.
in all likelihood, it will not be possible to achieve a significant improvement in protection at a reasonable price, but to bring the tank's CIU into norm is real, and moreover, it is highly recommended.
so there was such a basic modification. plus there are needs for unification.

[Crang]

Quote: knifebot

then, that the T-72B, or even some "A" does not meet modern requirements at all in all respects. not only security, but fire control, communications, surveillance and ammunition.

In terms of security, the B-scale is better than this B3 in a circle. In fact, the ammunition is the same. The elements of the LMS in the modernized tank are poorly located. It was necessary to modernize this way. Leave the usual T-72B outside. Reinforce the side screens with a power frame (like the T-64BV). New 125mm cannon 2A46M5 + new AZ. New radio station. Then do not put "Pine", but it is better to put the command PNK "Agat-MR". Well, the engines are even more powerful.

[Knifebot.]

In terms of security, the B-cabinet is better than this B3 in a circle.

Do you have the results of shooting with modern ammunition on pin-1 and 5?

Ammunition in fact the same

since the automatic loader was modified for some new ones, and the need for new ones - it seems as obvious - then there were prerequisites for this.

SLA elements in the upgraded tank are located unsuccessfully

what does it mean unsuccessfully, what kind of criterion is it for the LMS in general?

Leave the usual T-72B outside. Reinforce the side screens with a power frame (like the T-64BV). New 125mm cannon 2A46M5 + new AZ. New radio station. Then do not put "Pine", but it is better to put the command PNK "Agat-MR". Well, the engines are even more powerful.

and get a modification that does not seem to meet the given parameters. the criterion for the B3 is optimality, it is completely different than, say, maximum security, here it is necessary to take into account the capabilities of the industry, the cost, the sophistication of the solutions and the cost of time - and here in terms of the ratio of all together the B3 military seems satisfactory.

[Crang]

Quote: knifebot

since the automatic loader was modified for some new ones, and the need for new ones - it seems as obvious - then there were prerequisites for this.

What are the prerequisites? The shells are still "Mango" and "Mango-M".

Quote: knifebot

what does it mean unsuccessfully, what kind of criterion is it for the LMS in general?

This means that the Sosna-U sight-device was placed in place of the 1K13-49 sight-device. And they equipped it with a four-bolt cover. To use this sight, the gunner must first get out of the tower with the keys, remove the cover, and then climb back in and wildly bend his neck to the left. Therefore, in fact, no one uses this sight. And they use the old TPD-K-1 laser sight-rangefinder and the semi-automated OMS built into it.

Quote: knifebot

and get a modification that does not seem to meet the given parameters. the criterion for B3 is optimality, it is completely different than, say, maximum security, here it is necessary to take into account the capabilities of the industry, cost, sophisticated solutions and time costs

So the T-72B is a priori better in this respect. There is no need to alter anything outside the "industry". Only clean, straighten and paint. "Agat-MR" is also a well-mastered thing. The rest is the same as in the T-72B3.

[Knifebot.]

What are the prerequisites? The shells are still "Mango" and "Mango-M".

then what was there to modify? maybe something new is supposed.

This means that the Sosna-U sight-device was placed in place of the 1K13-49 sight-device. And they equipped it with a four-bolt cover. To use this sight, the gunner must first get out of the tower with the keys, remove the cover, and then climb back in and wildly bend his neck to the left. Therefore, in fact, no one uses this sight. And they use the old TPD-K-1 laser sight-rangefinder and the semi-automated OMS built into it.

Well, thicken the paint is not necessary. since it is not supposed to screw the cover under fire, this is not essential.
inconvenient location is also ... in the tank it’s generally inconvenient, so it won’t go beyond the main criterion.

So the T-72B is a priori better in this respect. There is no need to alter anything outside the "industry". Only clean, straighten and paint. "Agat-MR" is also a well-mastered thing. The rest is the same as in the T-72B3.

what place is it better? What are the total number of DZ blocks? for instruments one needs to look at the production possibilities of both, shorter than the economic and technical justifications, without that there is no point in discussing. Can all agate on t-80 go away and there is no possibility to increase production.

[Crang]

Quote: knifebot

what place is it better? What are the total number of DZ blocks?

Of course more. Incomparably. On an ordinary T-72B, 4C20 blocks close the roof of the tower, and the side of the hull to the MTO itself, and the side of the tower. And all this, including the forehead, they close very tightly and without gaps. The T-72B3 normally covered only VLD and the forehead of the tower in torn pieces. And he has no DZ anywhere else.

Quote: knifebot

since it is not supposed to screw the cover under fire, this is not essential.

How is this not supposed to be? Our enemy action plans are not provided? There are two options - either ride with an open sights all the time. Or right in battle you’ll climb to unscrew the bolts. Or you’ll just use TPD-K-1.

[Knifebot.]

Of course more. Incomparably. On an ordinary T-72B, 4C20 blocks close the roof of the tower, and the side of the hull to the MTO itself, and the side of the tower. And all this, including the forehead, they close very tightly and without gaps. The T-72B3 normally covered only VLD and the forehead of the tower in torn pieces. And he has no DZ anywhere else.

Well, the same contact-1, and then to-5. I don’t know the background and history of the development of K5, but here generals with lompas are finally out of business, as it’s a long-standing affair and then they decided that it should be so. obviously K5 is available or there is the possibility of mass production, and Relic or not, or expensive. And the first contact apparently does not suit because of its total anti-commutability and inefficiency against modern artillery ammunition.

How is this not supposed to be? Our enemy action plans are not provided? There are two options - either ride with an open sights all the time. Or right in battle you’ll climb to unscrew the bolts. Or you’ll just use TPD-K-1.

Well, obviously it is supposed to ride with the open, where there is a risk. and cho by the way with bolts is bad? Do you need a device that does not need protection at all or that it opens itself? all options have drawbacks of the type, one is expensive, the other is wedged moget.

[Crang]

Quote: knifebot

and cho by the way with bolts is bad? Do you need a device that does not need protection at all or that it opens itself? all options have drawbacks of the type, one is expensive, the other is wedged moget.

Well, actually, all normal tanks open themselves. At the same T-72B, the curtains 1K13-49 open in this way, instead of which the "Pine" was stuck.

[Crang]

Quote: knifebot

inconvenient location is also ... in the tank it’s generally inconvenient, so it won’t go beyond the main criterion.

Why is it inconvenient? In a normal tank it’s quite convenient. The T-72B is pretty good, if not very hot or not very cold.

Quote: knifebot

Can all agate on t-80 go away and there is no possibility to increase production.

T-80s have not been produced for a long time. And "Agatha" was never put on them.

[Knifebot.]

Why is it inconvenient? In a normal tank it’s quite convenient. The T-72B is pretty good, if not very hot or not very cold.

very relative convenience. once done on the left - it means it was not possible to move closer, it wasn’t done in vain.

T-80s have not been produced for a long time. And "Agatha" was never put on them.

Well, they are modernized and are in service. What are the agate industry opportunities?

[Aleks tv]

Quote: knifebot

and get a modification that does not seem to meet the given parameters. the criterion for the B3 is optimality, it is completely different than, say, maximum security, here it is necessary to take into account the capabilities of the industry, the cost, the sophistication of the solutions and the cost of time - and here in terms of the ratio of all together the B3 military seems satisfactory.

Why so many buzzwords?

All you need on the T-72B3:
- stick a normal PNK to the commander + the ability to install a remote control unit.
- In mind, hang DZ on the tower and sides.
That's FSE. Everything else necessary was almost put on him.

Money for this is not required.
And there will be a quite acceptable modernization, which we have been dreaming of for 20 years.

It’s just that GABTU’s spirit doesn’t have enough to drag TTZ through GSh ...
Likely stripes interfere.

[Crang]

Quote: Aleks tv

- In mind, hang DZ on the tower and sides.

Well, in general, it’s not so difficult to weld the frame on the tower and tightly, beautifully place the VDS blocks there. And fill the void with quartz sand. Militia reinforce the T-64A. It turns out not bad, I must say. It looks cool, the most important thing.

[Knifebot.]

- stick a normal PNK to the commander + in

which one is there already in mind?

the ability to install remote ZPU.

why is it so necessary?
the need for the commander to crawl out into the hatch for firing with ZPU in all likelihood somewhere at the level of statistical error.

- In mind, hang DZ on the tower and sides.

contact-xnumx leave? because if it is a relic, then again you need to look at the technical, economic and technological justifications in both cases.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: knifebot

- stick a normal PNK to the commander + in

which one is there already in mind?

the ability to install remote ZPU.

why is it so necessary?
the need for the commander to crawl out into the hatch for firing with ZPU in all likelihood somewhere at the level of statistical error.

- In mind, hang DZ on the tower and sides.

contact-xnumx leave? because if it is a relic, then again you need to look at the technical, economic and technological justifications in both cases.

If the topic is really interesting, then please look at me in PM (publication section).
There is an article about the T-72B3 in two parts.
It’s just already tired of talking about the same thing, take it easy.

Then I’ll talk with pleasure.

Best regards
Alex.

[Knifebot.]

Yes, I read all this. one current - there are no economic and technological justifications there anyway. And they are more important than individual Wishlist, especially in conditions when we generally have three main tanks, and Wishlist can be satisfied at the expense of other models. So it is in this vein that I look at the question and do not see any crime explicit.

[The Art of War]

Hi Alexey here I agree with you, and even more so I agree with the remote and with the padded jacket, I don’t like that there are a lot of voids, they hung DZ .C out of my mind they say the same thing is expensive, the crew’s life is more expensive, it’s good to make new protective suits for tank crews In general, you need to bring the T-72 to the T-90

[Aleks tv]

Quote: The Art of War

Hi Alexey In general, you need to bring the T-72 to the T-90

Greetings, Alexander.

Do not want...
To T-90 it is too much to redo it ...
At least strengthen the suspension and transmission to the level of T-72BA, otherwise the weight of the new equipment, additional armor and dvigla will not stand.
Yes, and they are different, even for iron.

[The Art of War]

Aleksey, it turns out the money spent, much of a sense is not visible in the modernization, a lot of open seats on board so terrible not generals - they will ride them, for the Chechen company and for the 2008 war and for Syria, the experience is enormous, if so modernized by the mind and not tyap blunders

[Zdishek]

I absolutely agree! But a little but! A cut of budget funds. Ana, how can you bring gifts to plant directors in the Moscow Region? And the guys in the tanks uncles do not care. Them. Children and grandchildren do not serve.

[Knifebot.]

and what tank did you burn in yourself?
patamusha, I’m looking straight at the experienced front-line soldier, I’ve been everywhere - you know everything.

[Prager]

As always, Russian folk fun - save money on matches. it’s a pity that ordinary soldiers, and not greedy fat generals, will burn in such tanks.

[Linkor9s21]

the T72 has a 125mm gun, and the tank itself is very fast, so it’s just a killing machine

[Wolka]

the generals need to steal me, they save on the soldier again, you yourself cannot drive them into such tanks with a filthy broom ...

[Lopatov]

Earlier Serdyukov was guilty, now "generals". Well, the king, as usual, "knows nothing"

[Crang]

Before Perdyukov, now Kozhugetych. Specially do, that we would ride on shitty tanks.

[Lopatov]

This is somewhat different. The interests of the military-industrial complex take precedence over the interests of the army. Moreover, while Serdyukov at least minimally tried to butt, Shoigu completely agrees with this situation; he does not want to repeat the fate of his predecessor.

[Crang]

Quote: Spade

The interests of the military-industrial complex take precedence over the interests of the army.

Since the military-industrial complex, it was interesting to supply exactly the T-90A. From the T-72B3 they spit themselves. Talked here with one.

[padded jacket]

I do not know how true the videos are, it's up to the "specialists" to decide. Personally, I don't like this "budget" modernization of the tank.

[Crang]

Yes. Normal, well-repaired T-72B is better. Just stuffing would then be me. Instead of a new, idiotic body kit, a new engine and new BOPS.

[Vadim237]

Yes, this modernized hack-work aboard LNG 9, RPG 22 and even the PG7V shot will break through, T 72B with dynamic protection. Contact 1 is much better protected.

[Crang]

Well, maybe they won’t pierce of course, but the board in the usual T-72B is really much better protected.

[NDR-791]

Quote: Tan4ik

Something I do not like.

Like me, you do not like the persistence of the "advertising campaign". Motorists have a good principle - it works, don't touch it. Most likely, the matter is in the price of the issue, and re-equipment of another remote control (if available in warehouses or the possibility of production) is not difficult even in the field - turn the nuts and all the cases. We have a lot of proven technologies for any attachments. After all, they do not put on every tank, for example, a trawl right at the factory.

[Lopatov]

Everything is a bit more complicated. The main expenses in the process of modernization are laid not in the installation of new devices or systems, but in the restoration of the resource. For example, the new BTR-82 from the plant costs 22 million, and the modernization of the BTR-80 available in the troops to the BTR-82 version costs the state 20.7 million rubles

And what happens? That's right, the cheaper the new systems installed on the tank in the process of overhaul and modernization, the greater the income received by those who spend it

[Committee]

Quote: Spade

the cheaper the new systems installed on the tank during the overhaul and modernization process, the greater the income received by those who spend it

and what conclusion? Give someone enrichment, or increase combat efficiency?

[Lopatov]

For now, let’s get rich.

[NDR-791]

So the ecumenical lament in the article on protection. "They've taken everything, but don't take the defense !!!" that's where the dog rummaged.

[uwzek]

Naturally. The main thing is the restoration of the resource. At the factory, the tank is primarily repaired. During operation, the metal is triggered. In critical components of the structure (BKP crankcase, holes for fastening the friction clutch, podmotornye frames, etc., it is necessary to surfacing and re-treat the case on the machines (sometimes several times). Broken threads are restored, etc. The laborious process times three above the manufacture of a new building, the savings for the country are only in the cost of armor.
The equipment, then inserted into the tank, is paid by the state, and it orders it.
As a result of modernization, the army received a very large number of tanks, which will serve for another thirty years ...

[Vadim237]

One damn at least Relic, at least Contact 5 from, an impact core and a missile getting into the roof will not help.

[uwzek]

Well, the trawl on each tank is, of course, set at the factory. In the field, this trawl is only screwed on and connected to the tank power.
To change the type of DZ, you first need to cut everything from the nose of the tank to a clean sheet of armor and dig deeper into the tower with a soldering iron (of course, after dismantling the wiring. This can be done in the field, if the need arises, but it will be very difficult, the torsion of nuts from which - a very simple part of it. In addition to the wrench, you need a cool welding machine that allows you to solder in a variety of modes (the seams are various, some of them must ensure the tightness of the body), someone must mark the body for a new type of dynamic protection, install these pieces of iron and restore the functionality of the machine. In short, a field change in the DZ system is extremely abstruse. Even if you succeed, and in terms of time, if every evening, starting from the third, shoot one of the performers, then in a week or two that -Don't portray (do not shoot - for a couple of months). True, the performers will end earlier.

[Karabas]

I support NDR-791, any products must meet the price-quality criterion. There should be a basic modification, and a bunch of options. We are used to getting the final product, as a result, we get a raw, unfinished product, then we bathe over the entire life cycle. Example T-64, a great car, but with a lot of flaws at that time, and the car came out in a limited edition. Although from my point of view (the driver), the hodovka at the T-64 and at the moment surpasses the hodovka T-72.

[Michael_59]

DZ with holes, the frontal projection is not covered, the sides are not covered, the top of the tower is not covered, the commander is doomed to death when he sticks his head out of the hatch to fire a machine gun, which was "carefully" left for him instead of the DBM.

[Knifebot.]

whom should he shoot with a machine gun, leaning out on his belt?
the machine gun on the turrets there for the sake of force majeure situations - on a helicopter to pop too arrogant, or through windows which, obviously, are outside the capabilities of infantry weapons.

[uwzek]

Why broadcast fairy tales? Where are the holes with holes? (Well, or who has DZ without holes at all?) Where is the open frontal projection? (The small DZ blocks in the area of ​​the cannon mask were on early modifications of the T-90, others have been standing for a long time, about twenty years ago). The top of the tower is also covered by DZ blocks (and it was always covered, only on the T-90 part of this area was occupied by blocks of the ZPU vertical channel

[Michael_59]

Quote: uwzek

Why broadcast fairy tales?

Oh my God.

Well, let's figure it out. Here is the T-72 B3 - do we see the absence of a missile defense to the right and left of the gun’s mask?

[Knifebot.]

and how often do hits happen there?
patamusha, if the expert is not in the know - where to hang up and where not to hang up decide on the basis of statistical and mathematical calculations, where he flies rarely or without haste - they don’t hang there - where often they hang him there.

[Michael_59]

For comparison - mask zone cover on the T-72B.

Feel the difference?

[Michael_59]

Quote: uwzek

The top of the tower is also covered by DZ blocks

How does it (kutsevato, don’t you find?) Look at B3:

[Michael_59]

Quote: uwzek

The top of the tower is also covered by DZ blocks

How it was implemented on the T-72B: (no comment)

In the same picture, pay attention to the protection of the shoulder strap of the tower, in option B3 absent as a class ...

[Michael_59]

Quote: uwzek

Where are the holes with holes?

And here she is!

[ed65b]

Well, maybe everything is done with an eye on Armata, it makes sense to burn babosy in old trash.

[Nitarius]

strange article ... DEFENSE forces to BUY a new ARMOR thereby ... UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS EVERYTHING ... MADITIONS OF THE MILITARY WITH MANUFACTURERS I UNDERSTAND!

[Abbra]

It seems to me that all fixed assets are moved to create and test a fundamentally new machine. Armata, damn it ...

[Tatarus]

How many generalists among us
Submarine-pilots-tankers
Spy Rocketeers Among You
But just shkolota-surfers.


Do not write about what you do not know, you will be smarter. The Internet is a manure pit. Yes, there are diamonds in the pit. BUT only professionals can get them (those who are in the subject). The rest collect fossilized guano, considering it diamonds. But the truth cannot smell good

[Crang]

What a thoughtful pepper.

[Vadim237]

Okay, dynamic protection is outdated, at least they would buy a new KAZ Arena.

[Diviz]

the question is that this iron will fight in our time.
at what stages of the fighting it will be involved. for export and who will buy it - Syria. for biathlon and for exercises such a machine. for special operations we wait for armature. the army will rearm until 2020, so I’m thinking of a lot to change. most importantly, technological progress did not stand still.

[Ivan Tarasov]

Somehow he is completely naked.
T-90MS had to be built, before the appearance of the T-14.

[Crang]

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

Somehow he is completely naked.

We must cook the kit on the tank ourselves. I wrote an article on how to do this.

[Alexey RA]

Yeah ... and ride the T-55, T-62 and T-72 of the first series.
Remember - in what quantities did the army buy T-90A? So the T-90MS would have been purchased in half. The result is known: the court divisions of the year could have received a full set of tanks in 3-4 years, and the rest would have to fight, if anything, would have had to use vehicles of the "developed stagnation" times, as in 08.08.08.

[Crang]

Quote: Alexey RA

Remember - in what quantities did the army purchase T-90A? So the T-90MS would be purchased half as much.

T-90MS did not buy a single one at all. We have only the T-90 (Yeltsinovskiy) and T-90A models, the coolest models of 2004 and 2006.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Krang

T-90MS did not buy a single one at all. We have only the T-90 (Yeltsinovskiy) and T-90A models, the coolest models of 2004 and 2006.

I also say - "it would be purchased".
T-90A were purchased at 60-65 units per year.
T-90MS - perhaps they would take 35-40 vehicles. That is, 1 battalion would be rearmed in a year. And the rest - "listen to your boots", that is, use T-72B and T-72A. Next year - another battalion. And by 2020 - hurray, we rearmed Tamantsev and Kantemirovtsy. And the rest remained on the relics of the USSR.

For comparison: T-72B3 is delivered at 250-280 units per year.

[Ivan Tarasov]

For comparison: T-72B3 is delivered at 250-280 units per year.

And what kind of procs are they - the T-72B3 tanks are outdated a long time ago, the T-90MS, as a temporary measure, would still fit in until the T-14 production was mastered.
So it’s better to arm a couple of T-90MS divisions, then replace them with a T-14, and you can still use the nineties or sell them to your allies than re-equip your army with trash, and re-equip them again after three years.
Money nowhere to go?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

And what kind of procs are they - the T-72B3 tanks are outdated a long time ago, the T-90MS, as a temporary measure, would still fit in until the T-14 production was mastered.

1. Training tankers.
2. The rise in the "average hospital" level of domestic linear tanks for at least 15-20 years. At the time of the decision to switch to the modernization of the T-72, the overwhelming majority of tank formations were armed with equipment dating back to Soviet times. And the potential adversary is far from all on the "Challengers" or the latest "Abrams" drives around.

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

So it’s better to arm a couple of T-90MS divisions, then replace them with a T-14, and you can still use the nineties or sell them to your allies than re-equip your army with trash, and re-equip them again after three years.

A couple of divisions all over the country? How long does it take to transfer TD / MSD with all the equipment at least for 1000 km in a combined way (march on its own - transportation by train - march on its own)?
Remember the war on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX - and imagine that you need to bring so many from Moscow outside South Ossetia.

[uwzek]

The problem is one. And "Armata" and other tanks should be made on the same squares and with the same hands. Both are sorely lacking ...

[Ivan Tarasov]

For comparison: T-72B3 is delivered at 250-280 units per year.

With the same money it was possible to supply T-90 MC 150 - 180 units per year.
It would not be much more expensive, because the tank was mastered in production.

[Crang]

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

It would not be much more expensive, because the tank was mastered in production.

So far we have made a single copy of the T-90MS. the one on which the major in the program "Polygon" frolicked.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

and the same money could be delivered to the T-90 MS 150 - 180 units per year.

If you remember, the rejection of the purchase of T-90A was motivated by the fact that for one new T-90A you can get at least three T-72BZ.
T-90A RF Armed Forces received 60-65 vehicles annually.
T-90MS is more expensive than T-90A.
Therefore, it will not work in any way to purchase T-90MS in quantities greater than T-90A.

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

It would not be much more expensive, because the tank was mastered in production.

Excuse me, how can a prototype with a new engine and a new turret be "put into production"?

[Ivan Tarasov]

Excuse me, how can a prototype with a new engine and a new turret be "put into production"?

The base is the same, the transmission is the same, the engine has been replaced, a tower, a new body kit installed, appliances.
Deep modernization of the T-90 mastered in production.

If you remember, the rejection of the purchase of T-90A was motivated by the fact that for one new T-90A you can get at least three T-72BZ.

There is pure fraud, it can not be three times more expensive - a clear fraud.
If you remove the stick - intermediaries, the price will come out at 30 percent more expensive, but no more.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

The base is the same, the transmission is the same, the engine has been replaced, a tower, a new body kit installed, appliances.
Deep modernization of the T-90 mastered in production.

Look. That is, a non-serial tank is the modernization of the T-90A.
And the cost of the T-90SM tank itself also adds to the costs of R&D. As a result, the price of the serial T-90SM will be 20-30 percent more than that of the T-90A.
Do you seriously think that in the current situation we will have 15 "fat years" to re-equip the army? Already after 08.08.08 it was clear that the equipment was needed "yesterday" and a lot.

Quote: Ivan Tarasov

There is pure fraud, it can not be three times more expensive - a clear fraud.

Kamrad, and this is nothing that the T-72B3 is made through modernization already produced tank, and T-90A - "from scratch"?

[uwzek]

More rent ...

[pahom54]

"For some reason, the military does not buy Relic", And are content with the outdated" Contact ", which is ineffective against modern weapons" ...

Does not buy one who will not be to sit in this tank during warfare ... Attacks ... On the map, generals-marshals have one more tic-tac-toe, one less ...

[REZMovec]

Have you read the news? "Armata" does not satisfy the RF Ministry of Defense in two ways - price and performance characteristics. Didn't reach the specified parameters. They propose to stick the "Armata" developments in the T-90: cheap and cheerful, and to send the "super-duper T-14 tank" to the doraboku and talk about it earlier than 2925, it seems like it's too early ... With which I congratulate you - loot sawed, no tank, only la-la.

[Crang]

Give me the link.

[Vadim237]

Yes, it’s easy to put a new cannon on the T 90MS with a new gun and a KAZ complex, and instead of a turret with a 7,62 machine gun, install a 12.7 44-barrel machine gun and do not need to change the engine. three times cheaper than Almaty.

[uwzek]

The T-90ms already has a new gun. DZ "relict". Have you ever changed the belts of the "cord"? An extremely weighty thing. Why do you need a four-barreled one?

[Vadim237]

DZ Relic is not new, but a new two years as they create, a four-barrel machine gun has a higher rate of fire just for aerial targets.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Vadim237

four barrel machine guns have a higher rate of fire for air targets.

What are the air targets?
No, I'm serious: what aerial targets will the 12,7-mm ZPU fire at, even if the 23-mm Shilka was already recognized as ineffective in the mid-80s due to its short range? All air opponents of our MBT have a range of onboard anti-tank weapons that is multiples of the effective range of the ZPU.

[Vadim237]

On low-flying helicopters enveloping the terrain, and even in urban combat, it will work well in high-rises and towers.

[miraculous]

slingshot, pine y / well and the name. who only invents them

[Vladimir.]

How would ... If the military said that the "Armata" is too expensive, then what for then buying old T-72? It would be better to save money and sell a couple of their luxury apartments, although who do we have in Russia, except the government can still buy apartments. Then maybe it would be enough for 20-30 new "Armatians", and not for 50 old T-72s. The army needs to be updated! This is not a museum!

[padded jacket]

Here's what they write about the T-90 and "Armata":

Tank T-90 can bury the project "Armata"

A radical modernization of the T-90 tank could put an end to the development program of the new generation main battle tank "Armata". The new T-14 Armata tank, which has not yet even been presented to the general public, drew criticism from the military. There are two reasons for this - the overpriced Uralvagonzavod and the inconsistency with the approved specifications.
In this regard, a variant of a radical modernization of the T-90 main battle tank is being worked out using developments within the framework of the T-14 "Armata" project.
Full article here:http://www.military-informant.com/news/7778-tank-t-90-mozhet-pokhoronit-proekt-a

rmata.html

[Knifebot.]

Well this is unlikely. in armature, the main thing in general is that it is a somewhat unified platform for everything you want, as if for the sake of this, everything was started.

[Vadim237]

In a crisis, this is quite logical, the Boomerang flew out, Armata started to stagger, and soon there will be news that Kurganets 25 does not meet the requirements for performance characteristics and price, it will be necessary to operate the old BMP-2, T 72 and BTR 80.

[Dog of war]

Read the tabloid less.

[Ze Kot]

Quote: Byshido_dis

For some reason, the military does not buy Relic, but is content with the outdated Contact, which is ineffective against modern weapons.

Apparently according to the test results "Contact" if worse, then not much. And it makes no sense to spend 3-4 times more for the "Relic". It's like one of the options. All the same, the truth will not be known to us. And at the headquarters, they are not fools and they understand better than us what is better. And article with double bottom. For the reasons described above.

Judging by the article, the difference between B2 and B3 is only in the engine and DZ. The engine is fine, but DZ would need to be updated. They took away from the deputies their representative limousines and for sale. And let them take the metro with people.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: The Cat

Judging by the article, the difference between B2 and B3 is only in the engine and DZ.

The difference between B2 and B3 is more significant in terms of hardware and hardware.

[Vadim237]

The armor steel is the same.

[Franky]

As I understand it, a reference to the "Bulletin of Mordovia" means a complete absence of proofs. For the VM is not at all in business here.

[Vovan - prison]

Che that article with rotten. I do not в understandings remained !