Humiliation by the Mistral

187
Humiliation by the Mistral


In the old days, such people said: “This is for you, grandmother, and St. George’s Day!” On November 10, the Elysee Palace on behalf of President Francois Hollande issued a statement: “The President of the Republic believes that the current situation in eastern Ukraine still does not allow the transfer of Russia to the first” Mistral. In this regard, he considered it necessary to postpone until the new order the examination of the request for permission to deliver the first Mistral of Russia. ”

The French president is hardly intentional, but de facto timed his decision to the autumn St. George's day. This holiday, the day of the Holy Great Martyr George the Victorious, a week before which, and a week later which, before 1592, Russia allowed the peasants to move from one landowner to another, falls on November 26. True, in the old style.

WHAT CAUSED OBJECTIONS

Always belonged to the number of opponents of the transaction on the "Mistral". During the period of its preparation, and even after the signing of the contract, he even spoke on the pages of HBO to criticize this project. And now, when he is on the verge of collapse, it would seem that you need to clap your hands maliciously. Like, they told you, warned! But no, quite different feelings prevail. First of all, I feel humiliation. I, like all citizens of Russia, have been humiliated. Humiliated "Mistral".

Let me briefly recall the arguments of the opponents of the ship deal with France.

Firstly, it is completely unclear why the update of the Russian surface fleet It was necessary to start with the purchase abroad of a landing helicopter dock ship (DVKD), while the Russian Navy primarily required frigates, corvettes and missile boats. And minesweepers in their mass are outdated and can not fight with modern naval mines. They have long needed a replacement.

Secondly, in terms of their capabilities and tactical and technical characteristics, the Mistrals are inferior to other foreign counterparts, for example, the South Korean FCD Tokdo. This is not to mention the American amphibious assault ships (UDC) of the type “Tarawa”, “Wasp” and “America”, as well as the Spanish UDC “Juan Carlos I” and its Australian counterparts of the type “Canberra”, which not only can land , but also able to act as a full-fledged light aircraft carriers. Anyway, to call "Mistral" warships - a big stretch. According to Konstantin Shilov, the general director of one of the Russian concerns involved in the creation and production of ship automation equipment, these DVKDs are equipped with “non-military equipment and should be used either in peacetime or in the prewar period.”

Thirdly, the shipyard STX-France in Saint-Nazaire does not possess any particularly unique shipbuilding technologies. She successfully specialized in the construction of cruise liners. And when with civil orders it became difficult, the company took up the assembly of "Mistral". Yes, on the STX-France build quickly and efficiently. But this is a question of the proper organization and culture of production and timely financing, and not at all advanced military technologies. At the Baltic Shipyard, as is known, the feed halves of the DVKD were also built well and on time.

Fourthly, the extremely high price of the transaction - 1,12 billion euros was objectionable. The cost is clearly too high. No wonder the French Internet resource Breizh-info.com today complains that, they say, "dear to NATO, these DVKD can only be sold to Russia." The overpriced price suggests that there is a corruption component that makes it easy to cut and roll.

Fifth, a strong argument against the Mistral contract was a direct dependence on the political situation. Now we just ran into this reef.

HOW IT WAS

Did the organizers of the transaction did not understand these circumstances? We will not diminish their mental abilities. Of course, understood. But they, undoubtedly, were driven by very strong motives.

They say that the Russian oligarch and senator Sergey Pugachev, who is now Interpol’s international search, was the initiator of the future deal. Among other things, he owned the Baltic Shipyard and the Northern Shipyard, one of the largest shipbuilding enterprises in Russia. They say that, in addition to the commission fee for mediation, he expected to earn money on subcontracting work on the first two Mistral hulls, and then on building two more ships at his factories. Perhaps it was so. But the 2008 – 2010 crisis disrupted these plans. Several criminal cases were filed against Pugachev, including on the deliberate bankruptcy of Mezhprombank belonging to him. But if the “Pugachev trace” is present in this matter, then it has long cooled. But other circumstances remain quite visible.

It all started at the Euronaval Paris Naval Show at the end of October 2008. The appearance of Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, was a sensation. It should be noted that, until then, the first persons of the Russian fleet had not spoiled their presence not only with foreign specialized exhibitions, but also for some completely unknown reasons, the St. Petersburg Naval Salon.

Of course, Vladimir Vysotsky could not get past the huge and very well-organized stand of DCNS - the leading French company to build naval technology, if only because the exposition of this company is traditionally located at the very entrance to the exhibition and cannot be avoided. There the Russian commander was greeted very warmly. The admiral was particularly interested in the project of the promising French aircraft carrier RXX. Vladimir Vysotsky did not even rule out the possibility of joint development of a multi-purpose atomic aircraft carrier.

Since I witnessed those events, I can state that the commander in chief, inspecting the DCNS exposition, was not particularly impressed with Mistral. But on the stand of the well-known Thales concern, the Russian admiral was clearly deliberately stopped by the DVKD model. Here we must pay attention to the fact that the Thales concern, which is engaged in the creation of various means of ship electronics, as well as complexes controlling the surface and underwater conditions and navigation systems, is co-owner of DCNS, it owns just under half of the capital of the shipbuilding company (the government owns more than half). Thales high-level managers almost dragged Vysotsky into negotiating apartments. He resigned, referring to the ambulance protocol meeting with the Minister of Defense of France Herve Morin. But this argument was broken: “Do not worry, Mr. Admiral, the minister will wait.” It seems that it was in the negotiation Thales at Euronaval 2008 that the “conception” of the future contract took place.

And now, at the International Naval Show of the IMMS-2009 in St. Petersburg, Vladimir Vysotsky stated for the first time that “he does not exclude the purchase of ships abroad”. And in the same place on the DCNS booth a whole "landing" of Russian admirals landed. A little later, during his stay in Ulan Bator, the Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, Army General Nikolai Makarov, considered it necessary to open up to journalists: “We are negotiating in order to reach contractual obligations before the end of the year, which will make it possible to manufacture and purchase a Mistral ". Secret became clear. Ardent supporters and locomotives of the future deal were Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and other Russian defense officials, as well as Russian Ambassador to France Alexander Orlov.

But until the end of 2009, the Mistral agreement was not reached. On the one hand, the French, having seized the Firebird of Fortune, bargained for themselves more and more favorable conditions and inflated prices, on the other - a very active position of the opponents of the deal seemed to be about to not allow the signing of the contract. Negotiations dragged on. Even an international pseudo-tender was organized, in which, naturally, the French Mistrals gained the upper hand.

However, the arguments of those who opposed sounded convincing and confused all the cards. And then the main lobbyist of Mistral, the then president of the Russian Federation, Dmitry Anatolyevich Medvedev, now occupying the post of prime minister, entered the game. He made it clear that the acquisition of Mistral is a political decision, a kind of Moscow mercy for the active participation of French President Nicolas Sarkozy in mixing the international consequences of the Ossetian-Georgian conflict. But even without “Mistral”, “Sarko”, as enemies called this political figure, earned a lot of points.

The Russian president cared about the fate of the contract, like the father of his beloved child. He even personally arrived at the signing of the 17 June 2011 business deal, as if fearing that the representatives of Rosoboronexport, which were instructed to sign the document, would scatter at the last moment.

By the way, the problematic mistral deal, which today turns into a shame, is one of the last high-profile initiatives by Dmitry Medvedev, which is close to collapse. Previously, the struggle with the light, that is, with incandescent bulbs, summertime, introduced in the winter, and other similar “beginnings”, rested in the Bose.

CASCADE OF BASES

What does the decision of the head of the Fifth Republic of November 25 mean? First of all, the transfer of Russia to the helicopter-landing ship dock "Vladivostok", built at the STX France shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, is once again postponed. After all, originally it was planned that this ship would go under the St. Andrew’s flag until the end of October of this year. Then the date of transfer and acceptance was shifted to November 14. DCNS, responsible for implementing the project, sent out invitations to the relevant ceremony, including Russian officials, on that date. But two days before the events at DCNS and other French enterprises and organizations, one way or another connected with the Russian Mistrals, in the literal sense of the word, they no longer contacted: they did not pick up the handsets, did not respond to emails and faxes. Soon it became known that the leadership of DCNS dismissed Yves Destefani, an employee who was in charge of the Mistral supply program to Russia and sent out invitations.

Further - more. Russian sailors who are in St. Nazaire for training in the management and maintenance of the Mistral, have ceased to be allowed on board the Vladivostok. However, the French Ministry of Defense intervened, which again gave the go-ahead to continue studying Russian sailors.

Then came the encouraging news that Vladivostok will leave for St. Petersburg on November 28. He was even appointed the chief of the DVKD’s transition to Russia - Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Vice Admiral Alexander Fedotenkov.

At the same time, contradictory statements were made in Paris. For example, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin argued that "the conditions for the transfer of the Mistral helicopter carrier to Russia are not yet available." But French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said in a speech at the National Assembly: "The transfer of the Mistral helicopter carrier to Russia will be carried out soon, but the exact date has not been determined."

And November 25 became aware of the verdict of Francois Hollande. Until this is a final failure. People familiar with the text of the contract show that the French side has almost three months to execute it, which are calculated from November 14. That is, until the middle of February next year, we must endure French slaps and substitute the right cheek for the left cheek.

Who will answer for it?

We are comforted that, say, if France refuses to supply the DVKD, we will even win, because Paris will have to return not only the advance, but also pay a substantial fine. Experts in this field call the most varied amounts of compensation: from 200 – 250 million euros to 3 – 10 billion. The last figures seem to be too high. But to compensate for the losses, you will have to try hard. Already formed groups of qualified lawyers who will defend the interests of Russia in international courts. However, it should not be forgotten that France also has strong lawyers and they have more experience in such matters. In other words, for now compensation is a crane in the sky.

The arguments that France, by refusing to supply Mistrals to Russia, will undermine its authority as a reliable arms exporter, are not convincing either. Some even referred to Delhi, which, in the light of Paris’s unsightly position on the DVKD, was almost ready to abandon the purchase of 126 Rafale combat aircraft. In this regard, a high-ranking representative of the Indian Ministry of Defense even made a statement that "the Rafale deal with France is valid and there are no problems with it." And Egypt, in the midst of the passions around the Mistrals, asked Paris for urgent purchase of a Normandy frigate of the type FREMM.

Do not indulge yourself with illusions. Foreign states show only polite attention to the conflict with the Mistrals, but they build their policy in the sphere of military-technical cooperation solely on the basis of their own interests.

It is possible that Vladivostok will be given to us all the same. For example, in the "Christmas window". But the problems with the second ship, Sevastopol, will not be less. Moscow will fool their heads for another whole year, while Paris, meanwhile, will try to find a buyer for it. And it is likely to sell, albeit for a smaller amount, but in any case, the losses will be significantly reduced.

Of course, the United States played a big role in torpedoing the Russian Mistral. No wonder Barack Obama led long conversations with Francois Hollande, and Secretary of State John Kerry still 20 November, that is, five days before the announcement of the Elysée Palace memorandum, he called the French position on the transfer of helicopter carriers to Russia.

However, the main culprits of humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for selfishness or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. With them, and ask. But this is hardly possible with us.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. +44
      13 December 2014 18: 18
      Osprey and F-35 can be based on Juan. Well, the Harriers. By the way, this same Juan, like the Korean one, consists of American components of critical importance - that is, projects were not feasible initially because the Senate Committee would not have given permission in the 2009-2010 year. Mistral is still French-European.


      About Gorshkov - it was built on the money of India. And there, the penalty would have resulted not only in big problems on contracts for everyone - from diesel-electric submarines to Su-30 and T-90, but also in direct 4-5 lard greenery (estimates from the 1 lard grew in 2,7 lard dollars paid by the Indian side ), and the total losses would be 2-3 Nimitz and Gerald Ford in the appendage.
      1. +5
        13 December 2014 18: 41
        Quote: donavi49
        About Gorshkov - it was built on the money of India. And there the forfeit would result not only in big problems

        Initially, there was no need to sell it. Although, on the other hand, I understand that I would have rotted at the pier .... The Spaniards still have to live up to F-35, and they have had Harriers for a long time ...
        1. +10
          13 December 2014 18: 50
          It was sold in the 2000 year (but in fact it was shook hands in the 99 year). What then could throw a 1 lard of greenery onto an aircraft carrier?
        2. +12
          13 December 2014 20: 26
          Quote: tomket
          Initially, there was no need to sell it. Although, on the other hand, I understand that I would have rotted at the pier .... The Spaniards still have to live up to F-35, and they have had Harriers for a long time ...
          - you all understand, but all the same on emotions "it was not necessary, it was not necessary!". So at least the greens helped out, but they gave people work for many years, and thousands of tons of rusty rot at the pier somehow do not give work ...
          1. Kassandra
            +8
            13 December 2014 21: 34
            the point is that instead of giving greens to the French workers, they had to give them their own and leave the product to themselves ...
            It’s just that France wouldn’t get the money that would go to the Indians since
            Mistral would remain in France and Vikramaditya in Russia
            and paint the rhinos instead of the latter being rotten and the others left for nothing.
      2. +26
        13 December 2014 19: 00
        Quote: tomket
        "Harriers" can be based on Spanish and Australian UDCs.

        Why UDC airplanes, think for yourself. If landing is needed, then why are the Harriers needed, and if an aircraft carrier, then why are funds needed for landing on the coast, then you can get by with helicopters alone. Why overload the ship, what it will not use, or will use very rarely, and therefore increase its cost, as well as operating costs. When they strive to make a super versatile ship, then you need to think about why it is overloaded with a bunch of characteristics. And saving in one will come out as expenses in another, and in size.
        Why cross a snake and a hedgehog.
        1. +5
          13 December 2014 19: 11
          Quote: tomket
          Now we are upholstering French rapids

          There are political deals when they don’t look at prices. So the arrival of the pro-Russian party in France is possible, plus we need a split in the EU. So we will listen for a long time whether we need the Mistral or not. When the politicians deal, then everyone will get it and someone will benefit. For example, a game of cards, where cheaters rule, you need to play by your own rules, and if you start by theirs then you will remain naked.
          1. -3
            13 December 2014 20: 09
            Quote: schizophrenic
            There are political deals when they don’t look at prices. So the arrival of the pro-Russian party in France is possible, plus we need a split in the EU. So we will listen for a long time whether we need the Mistral or not. When the politicians deal, then everyone will get it and someone will benefit. For example, a game of cards, where cheaters rule, you need to play by your own rules, and if you start by theirs then you will remain naked.
            Perhaps the Mistrals were specially ordered so that in the future they could be used in the form of a fake boycott of France.
            1. Kassandra
              +5
              13 December 2014 21: 36
              to burn from just one air bomb with helicopter fuel, or to drown a brigade of marines at a time.
      3. +22
        13 December 2014 23: 30
        However, the main culprits of humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for selfishness or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. With them, and ask. But this is hardly possible with us.
        this is all sadness and melancholy sadness.
        1. +8
          14 December 2014 01: 44
          Quote: pavel_SPB
          They are well known and in good health.

          and some still in their posts
      4. +6
        14 December 2014 03: 48
        Quote: donavi49
        Osprey and F-35 can be based on Juan. Well, the Harriers.

        Quote: tomket
        The Spaniards still have to live up to the F-35, and they have had "Harriers" for a long time ...


        "Harriers" at the base airfield, Spanish UDC "Juan Carlos" and DTD "Galicia" in the Rota naval base
      5. +6
        14 December 2014 06: 15
        Nor are the arguments convincing that France, having refused to supply Mistral to Russia, will undermine its credibility as a reliable arms exporter


        Kaaaaneshn, yeah! Well, is it possible to undermine your reputation by refusing to fulfill contractual obligations?
        I do not see any humiliation of Russia in the history of the Mistrals, only humiliation of France.
      6. +13
        14 December 2014 12: 13
        There is a good caveat; ".. do with others as you want, what would be done with you ..". Russia once played along with the United States and did not supply S-300 systems to Iran, they referred to sanctions. Then what do we want from France? We shouldn't have broken the contract.
        1. +2
          15 December 2014 10: 39
          As if yes ... I’ve forgotten already, but you’re right. It’s another matter that then the liberals were in control of Russia, but Russia was still responsible. The bear would be lustrated through the tank. wink
      7. predator.3
        +1
        14 December 2014 20: 36
        It follows from the article that ships themselves are built!
      8. +2
        16 December 2014 02: 06
        By the way, the problematic mistral deal, which today turns into a shame, is one of the last high-profile initiatives by Dmitry Medvedev, which is close to collapse. Previously, the struggle with the light, that is, with incandescent bulbs, summertime, introduced in the winter, and other similar “beginnings”, rested in the Bose.
        You’ll think about it ...
        Why does Medveput do this? Why is Serdyukov still free? Why is Medveput on the table (in his words) fresh mussels and shrimps, Russian-made, but we can not afford?
        Maybe it was here that the dog rummaged, nicknamed "Corruption", or "Enemy of the People", who likes it?
        Maybe you should think about why such people are at the helm of a state-va?
    2. +10
      13 December 2014 18: 23
      Quote: tomket
      sale of "Gorshkov" to India
      Gorshkov, India was donated, and for the money he was converted into an aircraft carrier. By the way, Mistral and Gorshkov are completely different classes of ships. Gorshkov is a TAKR sharpened to combat submarines, and Mistral is a universal BDK in a TAKR image of Baku (Admiral Gorshkov) 1978.
      1. +13
        13 December 2014 18: 28
        Quote: enot73
        By the way, Mistral and Gorshkov are completely different classes of ships. Gorshkov is a TAKR sharpened to combat submarines.

        Yes, this is all understandable, it takes a grudge for the continued squandering of the legacy of the USSR. I am surprised that the "bright minds" did not sell "Lazarev" and "Ushakov" to China.
        1. +11
          13 December 2014 18: 54
          Quote: tomket
          resentment takes, for the continued squandering of the heritage of the USSR.
          I agree with you. But at least they got something for Gorshkov, but how many ships of various projects rust on ship cemeteries.
          1. Kassandra
            +8
            13 December 2014 21: 39
            some girls are already too tanned for the Arkhangelsk ...
            1. +1
              13 December 2014 22: 24
              photo montage, plus, without water, the ships lay on their sides
              some girls are already too tanned for the Arkhangelsk ...
              1. +12
                13 December 2014 22: 55
                Quote: sovetskyturist
                photo montage, plus, without water, the ships lay on their sides

                You just don’t know, they normally stand
        2. icy
          0
          14 December 2014 22: 39
          I do not understand what kind of "squandering" are you talking about? They sold the old stuff, and it's good. But how many new ones were built, last year I looked at the parade ... the stealth technology is impressive: no windows, no doors ... only corners.
          1. Kassandra
            0
            15 December 2014 13: 49
            full of ... cucumbers. and how to leave it?
            about such a squabble - how much was configured and how much was squandered in total? and what?
    3. +23
      13 December 2014 18: 26
      Quote: tomket
      Now we are upholstering French rapids

      Fate, prankster, minx
      Defined as follows:
      To all foolish happiness from madness
      A smart-woe from the mind.
      Alexander Griboyedov
      1. +17
        13 December 2014 19: 01
        "Humiliation" Mistral "

        So whose humiliation? Russia or France?
        There is NO UN sanction for Russia - only by order from Washington ..
        So this is the humiliation of France itself .. Well, the complete independence of its economy and foreign policy ... !!!
        1. +1
          14 December 2014 01: 42
          So this is the humiliation of France itself .. Well, the complete independence of its economy and foreign policy ... !!!
          Correctly noticed, my friend. France is a semi-colony of states, croaking on command from Fashington.
          1. 0
            15 December 2014 20: 54
            If the troll is minusanul, then everything is said correctly.
    4. +23
      13 December 2014 18: 30
      There are no traditions in modern Russia, so that the guilty of acts that have caused great loss to the state treasury will suffer at least some punishment. In the history of Russia, such precedents were during the time of Peter the Great and Stalin.
      1. +7
        13 December 2014 19: 44
        To investigate the loss of Vyborg, a military court was held, in which Apraksin presided, and Rear Admiral Pyotr Mikhailov was among the members. After a rigorous review of the case, the court sentenced Vice Admiral Kruys and Captain-Commander Reis to death, captain-commander Shelting to demotion to junior captains and another captain to expel from Russia. The sentence of the first two persons was subsequently commuted and replaced by a link: Kruys to Kazan, and Reis to Siberia.

        A current like Kruys was returned a year later and restored to the rank. laughing
        1. +4
          13 December 2014 23: 21
          Quote: Yarik
          Kruys

          the Dutchman was actually a very necessary person, he actually conveyed all the experience.
          Peter all over Europe was looking for such people; not everyone was on fire in Muscovy to work.
          And the people did not like to put it mildly.
          But Kruys was not a bad investment. Like the Germans and the Dutch from the German settlement.
          1. -1
            15 December 2014 10: 03
            Well, as far as I know, the fleet built by Peter through incredible casualties did NOT play any significant role in the history of Russia, but quietly ROTED after his death.
            1. Kassandra
              +1
              15 December 2014 14: 06
              Quote: user3970
              by incredible human sacrifice

              apparently this was a bicosis ...

              By the way, he destroyed the Pomeranian ice shipbuilding (Kochi, etc) ... and it was the yon who enslaved the peasants too. and also introduced the right of the first night to the landowners ...
    5. +14
      13 December 2014 18: 33
      In light of the events with the Mistral, I consider it utter folly to sell the Gorshkov to India. The question is, for what x .... ????


      Explain to me (but I think not only to me) and why do we need another aircraft carrier? The command of the Navy and under "Kuznetsov" cannot really come up with tasks, and then the second would not be drawn (and this is not counting economic and reputation losses) ... demonstration of the flag, but this task can be solved cheaper and more efficiently) ... 4 lard of "green" is better to use to update underwater "hunters" ... All of course IMHO.
      1. +5
        13 December 2014 19: 59
        Quote: gfs84
        do we need another aircraft carrier?

        Do we think the Pacific Fleet would give it up? By the way, "Donald Cooks" in the Black Sea, in my opinion, would also be careful not to hang around there ... "Kuznetsov" by the way, if he was a substitute, could be sent for a full repair ...
        1. +4
          13 December 2014 20: 08
          Do we think the Pacific Fleet would give it up? By the way, "Donald Cooks" in the Black Sea, in my opinion, would also be careful not to hang around there ... "Kuznetsov" by the way, if he was a substitute, could be sent for a full repair ...


          What is the mission for an aircraft carrier in the Pacific theater? There is enough land there, including in the sea (in the form of islands) with a developed infrastructure (of course, a lot needs to be restored - it's better to put money into the restoration of this infrastructure, which the aircraft carrier will cost) - by the way, it is not possible to sink at all. But the UDC of the Mistral format is needed there almost like air.

          Well, about an aircraft carrier in the Black Sea - this is generally insanity (sorry), this "puddle" is completely covered by aircraft from the ground (especially after the return of the Crimea).
          1. +1
            13 December 2014 20: 48
            Quote: gfs84
            What is the task for an aircraft carrier in the Pacific Theater?

            Do you think there will be no problems in the near future?
            1. +2
              13 December 2014 20: 53
              Do you think there will be no problems in the near future?


              I don’t see tasks for an attack carrier group, for defense tasks there exists a developed network of ground-based aviation.
              1. Kassandra
                +3
                13 December 2014 21: 40
                strange, but other countries see ...
          2. 0
            13 December 2014 21: 52
            Since when did we have interests in the Pacific Ocean within the radius of the Mistral's capabilities? Its place is the Mediterranean Sea, no further!
            1. +3
              13 December 2014 22: 45
              Since when did we have interests in the Pacific Ocean within the radius of the Mistral's capabilities? Its place is the Mediterranean Sea, no further!


              And you do not consider the problem of extended communications - Sakhalin, the Kuril archipelago, etc. Moreover, the unresolved territorial issue with Japan?
              With its range of 10800 km at maximum and 19800 km at economical speed, considering only the Mediterranean Sea as the place of use of this ship is at least negligence. IMHO.
      2. 0
        15 December 2014 11: 13
        Quote: gfs84
        why do we need another aircraft carrier

        to provide reliable cover for the submarine nuclear forces of the Russian Federation
        1. 0
          15 December 2014 12: 28
          to provide reliable cover for the submarine nuclear forces of the Russian Federation


          Y-yes, original ... First, let's make a strategic submarine missile carrier as invisible as possible, and then unmask it due to the presence of such a "kid" as an aircraft carrier ... Even the Americans did not think of that. And the order of the aircraft carrier includes 1-2 Los Angeles or Virginia ...
          1. Kassandra
            -1
            15 December 2014 14: 13
            for a long time there have been such ... American "kids" as they do not unmask their missile carriers, and their carrier-based aircraft will not let the Tu-142 shoot it.

            but the Russian missile carrier learns that it has long been discovered by aviation only after receiving a torpedo into the hull.

            in maintaining this imbalance of opportunities is your goal?
      3. The comment was deleted.
    6. AKM9
      +18
      13 December 2014 18: 42
      I agree with you. Stories with the purchase of ships and equipment from "probable friends", the destruction of our weapons and facilities for their production, I think, are the payment for our entry into the global economy. As a result, the industry is in a coma, and in the global markets we are pressed.
    7. +6
      13 December 2014 20: 11
      Why is everyone running around with this mistral? who needs it at all? it seems that Russia did not steal it from France, as Ukrainians did with gas from a Russian pipe. Money paid. Let the burry return grandmother back
    8. 0
      13 December 2014 20: 54
      Of course there are, these are sea-based airplanes of Yakovlev.
      1. 0
        13 December 2014 23: 45
        Wouldn't it be better to build a battleship? Just the trough for our conditions - an armored ship for work on coastal targets.
        1. Kassandra
          +1
          14 December 2014 00: 31
          google - "Belgrano" was like that ...
    9. mihasik
      +2
      13 December 2014 22: 50
      Quote: tomket
      Now we are upholstering French rapids ....

      We are not upholstering anything.
      Whether the Russian Federation receives the Mistral or not, in any case, we will win. We'll get it, well, plus we trained on the construction of large-capacity military ships. To help friends like Syria is the very thing. We will not get it, even better, the money will be returned with interest, plus they trained in the construction of large-capacity military ships, plus the French will fail the contract with India (India has already warned France) and will lose the image of a reliable supplier. For us, this is the elimination of a competitor in an important market, plus a possible contract for MIGs for India for $ 23 billion.
      By the way, "Mistral" will be a big problem to sell. they are "sharpened" constructively for our helicopters, and they are smaller than NATO ones. NATO stupidly will not fit in size.)
    10. +2
      13 December 2014 22: 57
      Quote: tomket
      Or does the author offer to buy "Harriers" in addition?

      Actually, we, as you know, have a defensive military doctrine. And we do not need a Mistral-class UDC .. Or are we going to the "distant shores"? So Zhirinovsky, it seems, is not yet President request ..
      hi
      1. Kassandra
        +1
        14 December 2014 00: 23
        and there’s no reason to go on them there - any non-Papuan aviation will drown
    11. 0
      14 December 2014 00: 40
      Quote: tomket
      "Harriers" can be based on Spanish and Australian UDCs. Do we have a working analogue?

      There is a Yak-38. (link: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DF%EA-38)
      1. +5
        14 December 2014 00: 44
        Quote: AndreyS
        There is a YAK-38.

        And how many of them are flying now? Together with the yak-141. Or is there a factory somewhere to produce them?
        1. Kassandra
          0
          14 December 2014 03: 16
          why are you asking?
      2. +2
        14 December 2014 01: 23
        only in pictures
      3. BCO 82-84
        0
        14 December 2014 21: 32
        Once upon a time ...
      4. 0
        15 December 2014 23: 10
        You look at the handsome man and you understand the country and great people ... but here are good leaders, unfortunately we are rare ... they are engaged in all kinds of garbage except direct management of the country and improving all the clusters of its constituents (((There are talented people, but they are not allowed to power such people as Serdyukovs and their successors (at their level) engaged in cutting all the valuable things left by inheritance from the Great Country ...
    12. The comment was deleted.
    13. ksendzov1971
      0
      14 December 2014 03: 19
      It is necessary to demand a forfeit and begin to build aircraft-carrying atomic cruisers, helicopter carriers
  2. +4
    13 December 2014 18: 10
    there is a very serious mistake, the author of the article writes, I quote
    It is possible that Vladivostok will still be given to us. For example, in the "Christmas window". But the problems with the second ship, "Sevastopol", will not be less. For another whole year Moscow will be fooled by their heads, and Paris, meanwhile, will try to find a buyer for it. And he’ll probably sell it, albeit for a smaller amount, but in any case, the losses will be significantly reduced

    So on the first Mistral it is much easier to find a buyer than on the second, because in Sevastopol 30% more can even be more than our equipment.
    1. +3
      13 December 2014 19: 16
      Quote: indiggo
      so on the first Mistral it is much easier to find a buyer than on the second,
      Well, if only China buys, but for the rest - too much will have to be redone ...
  3. +5
    13 December 2014 18: 12
    For another whole year Moscow will be fooled by their heads, and Paris, meanwhile, will try to find a buyer for it. And he’ll probably sell it, albeit for a smaller amount, but in any case, the losses will be significantly reduced.
    But this is unlikely, since half of the components in these Mistrals are Russian and belong to the Russian Federation
  4. +20
    13 December 2014 18: 12
    What a blessing that Serdyukov and his comrades did not manage to buy Leopard-2 from Germany. But there was such a crazy idea.
    1. 0
      15 December 2014 16: 11
      You are confusing something. Leopard was cited as an example when trying to bring down the price of the T-90. Another round of confrontation between the military and the military-industrial complex: some write incredible technical specifications and demand their observance, others roll out the revised old projects (and want to get them as new ones) or even declare: take what is, there will still be no other.

      Do you remember the sentimental story of the UAV, when the domestic military-industrial complex tried in the mid-2000s to push the tactical complex "Tipchak" developed in the mid-80s (while maintaining the element base and load - from the 80s)? 2 hours of flight, payload - 1 camera with line scan, the composition of the complex - 4 (four!) Kamaz. It was worth then declaring that Israel would supply UAVs cheaper, lighter and better - and a couple of years later, domestic companies were found that made UAVs according to the standards of the 2000s.
  5. +26
    13 December 2014 18: 12
    They are well known and in good health. I would ask them. But this is hardly possible with us.

    Unfortunately this is so. This is called all RESPONSIBILITY. No one is responsible for the decisions made, the main task is to cash in on people's money.
    1. +13
      13 December 2014 18: 26
      Stalin is not enough for them!
      1. GRF
        +9
        13 December 2014 20: 26
        Quote: Vladislav
        Stalin is not enough for them!


        It is necessary that Stalin is not over everyone,
        And so that everyone has a conscience ...

        It is not necessary to expose Stalin as an overseer ...
        People because of Stalin, if they died, are much less likely than for Stalin ...
        The difference ... however ...
    2. +15
      13 December 2014 18: 37
      Quote: Jovanni
      This is called all RESPONSIBILITY. No one is responsible for the decisions made, the main task is to cash in on people's money.

      This collective irresponsibility has a name - EVERYWHERE hi
      1. +13
        13 December 2014 19: 12
        I DO NOT RETURN YOURSELF !!!
        remind whose words?
        1. +1
          13 December 2014 21: 20
          Quote: Viktor Demchenko
          I DO NOT RETURN YOURSELF !!!
          remind whose words?

          Yes we know!
          The question arises: why didn’t he lower his pants and didn’t rip off his ass with a belt, so that others wouldn’t be habituated!
  6. SamSeBse
    +26
    13 December 2014 18: 12
    Do you want to do well and without problems - do it yourself. Russia has a unique shipbuilding school. We should be ashamed to contact anyone with such offers. Only yourself. No one will help us. Even for the loot.
    1. GRANATE-19
      +20
      13 December 2014 18: 30
      Quote: SamSebe
      Russia has a unique shipbuilding school. We should be ashamed to contact anyone with such offers.

      I felt offended as soon as I only found out about this deal!
      We have so many shipyards, and we give the work of our shipbuilders to the frontier.
      This is a shooting case in the STALIN TIMES!
    2. The comment was deleted.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. +2
    13 December 2014 18: 14
    the author writes about allegedly some slaps in the face. I don’t think it looks that way.
    That's when the saga ends and as a result, France loses the trust of other countries purchasing weapons and pays a huge amount to the Russians, then we will summarize. We have a contract that will execute money or chairs ... it’s not so important, they will fulfill it.
    1. +4
      13 December 2014 18: 21
      Quote: Deadmen
      as a result, France will lose the trust of other countries purchasing weapons and will pay a huge amount

      It's like a blatant German business ... The author gave examples with the Indians and the Egyptians. Here, contracts were lined up to terminate. The same Indians can only offer an alternative to "Raphael" .... the same Europeans with "Eurofighter" or "Grippen". Essentially the same EU organization!
    2. +13
      13 December 2014 18: 23
      I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe they will, or maybe not. No, of course, they will not refuse to go straight, but they will pull until the last opportunity. I do not exclude the possibility that in the near foreseeable future we will not see either the Mistral or money for it. By the way, smart people foresaw this. Personally, I am worried about another question: to hell with them, the French, in our country, will someone answer for this adventure, or will they again blame everything on force majeure?
      1. +1
        14 December 2014 11: 50
        I think that Serdyukov 1000 percent will not answer for anything.
    3. +1
      13 December 2014 19: 17
      very not professional comment! it’s stupid to even hope that some third countries will look at the results of drinking with the Mistrals. all do not give a damn, everyone tries on actions and defends their interests. I ask you not to give an example of Bulgaria with UP as absolutely no legitimate country like Bulgaria is no longer in the world map ...
      1. 0
        14 December 2014 11: 52
        will you buy something very expensive from someone who is not clean at hand fulfilling contracts?
        1. 0
          15 December 2014 12: 23
          Quote: Deadmen
          you will buy something very expensive from someone who is not clean at hand fulfilling contracts

          If there are some goals, then you can buy, so as to substitute, then the seller will be easier to fulfill the contract than to throw the buyer.
    4. 0
      14 December 2014 14: 55
      Good is still not enough. The main thing in this Mistral story is we lost TIME ...! The frogs broke the contract. Compensation for "probable financial losses" - Obama will print the greenery on a typewriter at the Fed. And we - were left with a nose, without money and no time build your ships because the THREATING period is here. Not far away.
      Everything is as always - we equip port tugs with machine gunners, assign a new classification of the TFR (patrol ship), issue a secret dock, raise the flag of the Navy, and take the mother ship warship! And in the reports - a sharp increase in the NUMBER of surface ships of the fleet. So you can again produce the headquarters and admirals. negative
      And yesterday’s civilian sailors will fight and be heroic, while sawing rats will sit at headquarters in the Arbat military district. recourse
  9. +13
    13 December 2014 18: 15
    The conclusion is simple. Serdyukov and Medvedev are close to the Answer with him !!! A simple technique also costs Our money. And about the fact that the best is his own ... and there is nothing to say.
    1. 0
      13 December 2014 20: 59
      And besides, what the Italians did with their ship in the Black Sea. That's right - drowned.
    2. +1
      13 December 2014 23: 58
      simple equipment costs NOT our money - since November pays the shipyard for everything ...
  10. +7
    13 December 2014 18: 15
    Why did they choose the Mistral? - Yes, because the French do everything themselves, but for the South Koreans and the Spaniards, half is not half, but the manning of their ships is strongly tied to America, again, the political side is also of no small importance.
    1. INFOLegioner
      +6
      13 December 2014 18: 31
      "Minasral" chose to be friends with Europe in the first place (and to buy houses on the Riviera at the same time on the money saved (stolen) from the budget). Russia is capable of building any warships, including unique and unparalleled ones, and in any quantity. And this is not pathos or propaganda - this is a reality confirmed for centuries. soldier
      1. +7
        13 December 2014 18: 43
        So the general Nevsky Design Bureau says that it’s easy to build 7-8 years and 24 (in February prices of 2014 years) lard per ship.

        How much was the Mistral built there and how much did it cost? Given that this is a traditional optimistic assessment, but in fact the estimate will be fed and a couple of years on the slipway will be thrown.
        1. 0
          15 December 2014 16: 21
          Quote: donavi49
          How much was the Mistral built there and how much did it cost? Given that this is a traditional optimistic assessment, but in fact the estimate will be fed and a couple of years on the slipway will be thrown.

          Uh-huh ... I immediately remember how under Stalin they built the Sovetsky Soyuz LC. We laid 4 keels, six months later one was dismantled due to mass rejects. When they laid it down, they wanted to hand it over to the Navy in 1944. In the spring of 1941, the planned delivery dates were already 1945-1946.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  11. +11
    13 December 2014 18: 16
    However, the main culprits of humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for selfishness or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. With them, and ask. But this is hardly possible with us.

    "About Volodya Vysotsky, I sing this song ...". He was a noble naval commander. Those who served with him, to put it mildly, do not sympathize with him. A typical careerist, not burdened with outstanding intellectual and organizational skills. By the way, a native of the Lviv region.
  12. pahom54
    +14
    13 December 2014 18: 17
    Honestly, it’s a shame to snot ... It's not even about the money, although for our budget it is a decent amount ... The fact is that the vested men in power set up the state and live happily ever after ... But for me, simple man, Cheeks and ears are burning, as if I were publicly insulted yes in addition and ummuhali ...
    Keepers - go with them, they are strangers ... And here, it seems, their own were worse than strangers ...
    1. +1
      13 December 2014 19: 19
      beat your own, so that strangers would be afraid! lol
  13. +18
    13 December 2014 18: 17
    Throughout the reign of Medvedev, we had no president, no commander in chief, no minister of defense. Therefore, Georgia attacked us, and therefore we destroyed Libya.
  14. INFOLegioner
    +11
    13 December 2014 18: 18
    Mistral of course TRAY * RALI (this is a fact, and moreover, Historical) - but this is all nonsense and absurdity. And HERE FOR THE POWERS It's a shame ... First for the former French, because it is such a litter of the USA and London. And it’s a shame for the Russian one too (never trust your weapon, horse, and wife NEVER) hi
    1. 0
      13 December 2014 20: 40
      Why is it so insulting for us? Mistral is a Trojan horse to the guardians !! and big and juicy !!! wink
  15. +17
    13 December 2014 18: 18
    Foreign shipbuilders have absolutely nothing to do with the Mistral deal. Our side was the initiator. A well-known scheme. Lobbyists always get a decent percentage, for legitimate reasons. But this deal smelled bad from the beginning. The money was paid by the state, and how much has settled in the pockets of the interested persons involved? All this is called embezzlement. And since a lot of money is deliberately poured into the economy of another state, it can be qualified as treason.
  16. Leonidych
    -2
    13 December 2014 18: 19
    in scrap these misral ....
  17. +11
    13 December 2014 18: 19
    After Putin told MERKEL that he was aware of the plan of BARBAROSA 2, and MERKEL agreed that her signature is there, I think that the ships will not transfer, and the money too. They will sue until the end of the century with us if only not to give money. It is necessary to increase purchases of the main types of weapons. soldier
  18. olf_1959
    0
    13 December 2014 18: 20
    Wait and see.
  19. +17
    13 December 2014 18: 21
    However, do not forget that France also has strong lawyers and they have more experience in such matters. In other words, so far the compensation is a crane in the sky.


    Gold words! We will receive money for a long time, with torment and fabulous fees for lawyers. At the same time, we will again bear reputational losses to a greater extent. the Western press will pervert everything and intensify the propaganda war. I read in posts that someone else hopes for additional profit. Naive, you just don't know the French. They will choke after centimes, if anyone remembers such a coin.
    1. INFOLegioner
      +12
      13 December 2014 18: 56
      those who have lived or traveled to Europe know that there is no one in the world more greedy than the French. this fact has been proven many times. there finance is run by real capitalists of the age-old from the "chosen by God"hi
  20. KOH
    +3
    13 December 2014 18: 22
    Oland-Putin, Volodya, wait a little, we will give the dishes to you, the Americans just stepped on our balls, don’t be very indignant, Putin-Oland, okay, we frighten courts for the sake of order, can’t you cut Total off, is it good? ... well then hands on ... (personal fantasies) smile
  21. +5
    13 December 2014 18: 25
    What a fright! The author writes that we have humiliated Russia with the transfer of this barge what The paddling men have humiliated themselves Not only are they not decent suppliers And plus sixs of Uncle Sam who do not have their own I And the wool is humiliated by the French in this case Let the socks wash Uncle Sam laughing And Russia loot dumped in the form of forfeit
    1. +11
      13 December 2014 19: 24
      Yes, you do not get the loot, under any circumstances, and do not dream! an example is needed? The Hague trial in the Yukos case, open the result and wipe yourself! Gubo rollters got it! Loot will be given to them! Yeah, how so! Wait!
      1. +3
        13 December 2014 19: 44
        I won’t get. And Russia without tension. Their enterprises in Russia and this is capital. lol
      2. GRF
        -2
        13 December 2014 20: 17
        If everything was so simple, then they would have specifically answered no ...
        And so they break because they break ...

        Personally, I do not feel humiliation and I am not going to feel it for others ...
        Although I would draw conclusions about this ...

        And the article is bad, for the wrong attitude ...
        Okay so ... The French are in ... And we are humiliated ...
        1. GRF
          0
          14 December 2014 07: 57
          Not quite normal one who loves to feel humiliated and guilty ...
          And the one who calls to feel like that is the provocateur ...
          It's a shame for the state when we stupidly write off debts ...
          So that it is not insulting, we must participate in the adoption (confirmation) of the decisions of the elites ...

          We are a great nation, which can afford to buy French for lards, so that they would look forgiven for the whole world.
  22. GRANATE-19
    +10
    13 December 2014 18: 26
    Well, you say xep !?
    To interrogate the witnesses of this criminal crime with partiality, to find the guilty ones and to the gallows!
    And to be honest - it’s a shame for the power!
  23. +16
    13 December 2014 18: 31
    I feel very uncomfortable and feel cold when Medvedev casually drops: "I don't exclude this ..."
    Naturally, to the question of journalists, will he still run for president.
    God forbid!
    Obama’s only praise of him should forever erase such an opportunity.
    And our business with you, SW. forum users to explain to all friends, neighbors, acquaintances that this person will destroy the country much faster and more confidently than BEN did.
    1. KOH
      +8
      13 December 2014 18: 39
      I absolutely agree with you, such an impression, the government, headed by Medvedev, completely sabotages all of the president’s endeavors, moreover, do they fail by their actions, the president under popular anger, in other words, stupidly substitutes, and the question is, by chance, or intentionally ...? ??
      1. +15
        13 December 2014 18: 43
        Quote: CON
        the government led by Medvedev is completely sabotaging all of the president’s endeavors,

        We ask ourselves this question. Does such a government have a future with Putin? And is there a future for Putin with such a government ????
        1. KOH
          +3
          13 December 2014 18: 52
          In the Duma, a vote of no confidence in the government has not yet been heard from the Communist Party, the Liberal Democratic Party ...
          1. +1
            13 December 2014 19: 00
            In the Duma, a vote of no confidence in the government has not yet been heard from the Communist Party, the Liberal Democratic Party ...


            Why did they vote it all down, on a quiet one - apparently they began to probe the soil:

            The LDPR believes that the Russian government should be a coalition, at least two ministers from liberal democrats should enter it. This opinion was expressed by party leader Vladimir Zhirinovsky.

            “The future, it seems to me, lies with the coalition. We give our request, wish for the New Year: to think and find in the near future an option in which there will be a coalition government. Let the two ministers "


            http://news.rambler.ru/28330975/
            1. KOH
              +3
              13 December 2014 19: 07
              While Putin settles things abroad, THESE !!! test the patience of the people, and in every possible way rock the situation ...
              1. +9
                13 December 2014 19: 15
                While Putin settles things abroad, THESE !!! test the patience of the people, and in every possible way rock the situation ...


                Forgive me, but you have a strange logic - the President of Russia does not know what his subordinates are doing (especially the subordinate to whom he transferred the affairs for 4 years) ... Everything is agreed, maybe we do not understand something or do not like it, but their actions " links of one chain "...
                1. KOH
                  -3
                  13 December 2014 19: 17
                  I think that not everyone knows ...
                  1. +4
                    13 December 2014 20: 11
                    I think that not everyone knows ...


                    It is impossible to know everything at all (well, as an option it’s difficult to achieve), but the vector itself precisely sets.
                  2. +4
                    13 December 2014 21: 02
                    Mistral - this is not cartridges for the machine. This is an essential element of politics. This was a rapprochement with France. Putin, even on the pot, should have a headache on this issue, and not the back seat.
                    1. Kassandra
                      0
                      15 December 2014 13: 56
                      nothing hurts there - an ordinary flat decker,
                      let it hurt in France now.
              2. 0
                15 December 2014 18: 57
                All peasant perception is also a good king, bad boyars. Wake up. What is POP, such is PARIS. Our task: -to make it clear to the priest that with this coming he has a lid. Then the instinct of self-preservation will make you make the right decisions, and disperse the thieving stupid Caudle.
          2. Tribuns
            +1
            13 December 2014 22: 53
            Neither in the Duma, nor in the Government there will be noise ... The authorities have banned ... the authorities will not cut themselves!
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. GRANATE-19
          0
          13 December 2014 19: 42
          Quote: tomket
          Does such a government have a future with Putin? And is there a future for Putin with such a government ????

          The dilemma damn !!!
  24. +12
    13 December 2014 18: 36
    ordered two troughs, and now they don’t know what to do with them. And you need to ask Medvedev!
    1. Stypor23
      +5
      13 December 2014 18: 41
      Quote: starshina pv
      And you need to ask Medvedev!

      By concepts.
  25. +12
    13 December 2014 18: 40
    while the Russian Navy primarily requires frigates, corvettes and missile boats. And minesweepers in their mass are outdated and can not fight with modern naval mines. They have long needed a replacement.


    10 frigates are being built - of which 5 will be surrendered to the Navy 2015-2016 years. The main frigate problem is the lack of turbines, there will be optimistic ones until the end of the 2018 of the year (1 set M-90FR). Until this time, only 5 frigates have turbines. The shipyards that the Frigates are building will not be able to master the UDC or DKVD more than Madakasar. Ships of this type builds Peru at home and Myanmar с The philippines.




    Corvettes already 4 pieces in the Baltic + 6 build + 2 patrol modular TFR. None of the three shipyards can handle UDC or DKVD.

    Missile - 3 new with UKKS are already part of the Navy, another 5 is being built and a contract has been signed at 12, which will be expanded to 20 in the near future. Zeleny Dol will not master UDC or DKVD, although it’s in the Crimea ... But there it’s bad with logistics, and the plant also needs to 2-3 of the year to seal fur seals.

    Treltsy - a decision was made to build Alexandrites, a contract was signed for the 4 of the ship (everything rests on the head complex by the way - and they are actively thinking, maybe buy in the west, or rather they thought), the head Nevsky shipyard is not capable of building UDC or DKVD.


    And the result is as follows:
    К 18 year there will definitely be 5 new frigates, 6-7 new diesel-electric submarines, 8 new corvettes + 2-3 modular SKR, the same 12 RTOs from UKKS and mines. A here the Marines can be reduced to 1 brigade for:

    Three 775s of the first series will die - this is the Northern Fleet without a BDK, it will have to be pulled from other fleets by ship.
    2 of 4 TOFovsky will die or will be conditionally running cars
    1171 will die - but they will be replaced by Grena

    In total, 6 BDK will remain relatively alive and 4 will live out their own.

    The situation is exacerbated by the intensive disruption of resources on weekly routes to Tartus. Today, the Baltic Fleet is left without a BDK - Shabalin has embarked on flights, Kaliningrad is going home and is undergoing repairs until the fall of 2015, Korolev is going to change Kaliningrad, but he has already accepted the reserves until NG, Minsk is under repair.
    1. +2
      13 December 2014 18: 48
      2 of 4 TOFovsky will die or will be conditionally running cars


      donavi49 tell me please, is there no way to replace the diesel on the 775 project, or is it very dull with ship diesels too?
      1. +7
        13 December 2014 18: 58
        There are Polish Zgoda-Sulzer diesel engines, now everything is bought by Wärtsilä (the company whose diesel engine is on the Mistral), and the Polish company has ceased to exist for a long time. There are no analogues. To muddle with a remake for others is a rather dubious enterprise in terms of efficiency and expenses.
        1. +1
          13 December 2014 19: 02
          Thank you!
          But what is the general situation with ship engine building? Is everything deaf or is there any hope?
          1. +3
            13 December 2014 19: 18
            Medium. The new generation is not particularly. On 20380, for example, diesel diesel 16Д49 in the assembly ДДА12000 stand.
            1. +2
              13 December 2014 19: 29
              At 20380, for example, diesel 16D49 in the assembly DDA12000 stand.


              It's okay - he is "a hundred years old at lunchtime", well, of course, his characteristics are not bad ... yes, but on "without fish and fish cancer", an example of the reverse conversion, well, at least I hope the fine-tuning was given responsible attention. track...
      2. +2
        13 December 2014 19: 28
        Those that were made then do not release now. The new ones are much more powerful, but they have different dimensions and composition, so for their operation it is necessary to re-create the fuel, cooling, oil systems, remake control ... In short, you will have to re-create all the mechanics of the ship and this, provided that they generally fit into the place of the old That is not a fact.
    2. SamSeBse
      0
      13 December 2014 18: 50
      "The chef is all gone, the plaster is removed, the client is leaving !!!"
      Not so bad. Do not panic. Yes
      1. +4
        13 December 2014 18: 54
        Not so bad. Do not panic.


        Tell me what exactly is not so bad? Apart from the two Grens, no new "landings" are expected ... UDCs are included in the rearmament program until 2050 ...
        1. SamSeBse
          +4
          13 December 2014 19: 00
          I will give you a hint with pleasure. Do you think that after the last Peter the Great, delivered in 1995, it is easy to immediately start reviving the Fleet? 20 years of failure in both R&D and manufacturing. They built it for anyone and meager quantities, but not for themselves. The masters were dispersed. What do you want to restore everything within 2-3 years? No respected it does not happen. And there are serious questions in general about the need for UDC. This is from the series: "I want AUG but on x ... I do not know."
          1. +6
            13 December 2014 19: 10
            I will give you a hint with pleasure. Do you think that after the last Peter the Great, delivered in 1995, it is easy to immediately start reviving the Fleet? 20 failures in both R&D and manufacturing. They built it for anyone, but not for themselves. What do you want to restore everything within 2-3 years? no dear it does not happen. And there are serious questions in general about the need for UDC. This is from the series: "I want AUG, but for x ... I will not do it."
            ъ

            Well, you did not give an answer to the question posed, you reduced everything to demagoguery (sorry, but just like that) ... donavi49 (sorry I don’t know the name) talked about the fact that with the "landings" is dull - and changes are not expected and that Mistrals "(not to sleep will be remembered) the Russian Navy really needs (on this issue I completely agree with him - so not one foreign mission can be solved without such ships - humanitarian missions by itself - Russia, unlike the United States, is not an aggressor, and they are needed in their territories - let's not forget either the Crimea or the Kuril Islands) ... I understand that all the problems of domestic shipbuilding cannot be solved sharply - and the Mistrals were a way out of this situation (no matter what anyone says) ... I myself am a zealous enemy of the AUG in the Russian Navy (at least in the next quarter of a century, one will be enough for us) - yes, we have no tasks for them! But under UDC there are and will be tasks, and we need them.
            1. SamSeBse
              +2
              13 December 2014 19: 20
              No demagoguery just facts. What do you want to hear? What is bad in shipbuilding is known to everyone (and where is good with us). Both in civilian and military. Read historical analyzes (I’m not saying that you are an ignoramus. Not in this sense) and you will realize that the most terrible thing is to lose high-tech developments and production. I think that the authorities have no options. By the year 18 there will be a great war, and if we are not ready, then 1941 will seem like a paradise memory.
              About UDC.
              Do you think that AN-124 and IL-86 are not enough for humanitarian aid? Are we going to save everyone now?
              The problem of Crimea and the Kuril Islands is solved by aviation and air defense. Well, in Crimea there is still OTRK. And yes - frigates and corvettes. Well, if you were still hurt by the destroyers.
              The Ministry of Transport has nothing to do with the Fleet of Russia. Neither like a ship nor how at all. Clean laundering and nepotism.
              1. +1
                13 December 2014 19: 32
                Do you think that AN-124 and IL-86 are not enough for humanitarian aid? Are we going to save everyone now?


                Something not particularly our flying "transports" flew to Tartus ... Everything is somehow holding on to the 775 BDK project ... And how do you imagine the landing of "Ruslan" somewhere on Kunashir or Iturup?

                The problem of Crimea and the Kuril Islands is solved by aviation and air defense. Well, in Crimea there is still OTRK. The problem of Crimea and the Kuril Islands is solved by aviation and air defense. Well, in Crimea there is still OTRK.


                An interesting position, and why then in the RF Armed Forces there are other types of troops? And compare the air defense forces of Japan and ours in the Far East ...

                The problem of Crimea and the Kuril Islands is solved by aviation and air defense. Well, in Crimea there is still OTRK. And yes - frigates and corvettes. Well, if you were still hurt by the destroyers.


                Yes ... The landing operation (God forbid, of course) should be decided by shock ships, well, in that case, we do not need the "Marine Corps" nor the landing fleet ...

                You are completely right hi
                1. SamSeBse
                  +3
                  13 December 2014 19: 41
                  And so you specifically about Syria ...
                  So here it is either comprehensively decided or it was not necessary to climb at all. Actually, we and Ukraine have the same eggs. sad
                  And for the volumes of supplies that we now have in Syria go BDK 775 for the eyes. Then (I’m not sure if you correct something) you can and does not sit down. Discard the ramp.
                  But all this is nothing to talk about Syria. Because in Syria we need an integrated approach with a no-fly zone, and so on and so forth. So the BDK for today's purposes in Syria is it.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2014 19: 54
                    Damn did not work out (((

                    And so you specifically about Syria ...
                    So here it is either comprehensively decided or it was not necessary to climb at all. Actually, we and Ukraine have the same eggs. But all this is nothing to talk about Syria. Because in Syria we need an integrated approach with a no-fly zone, and so on and so forth.


                    Your approach is normal, let's instead get to buy UDC from France - we’ll get into a war better, but we won’t think about our boys. Or we will not trade with France, but just throw our friends (of whom we already have too few - and the Syrians are trusted people who have not thrown over the times of EBN). There was and is a provocation to draw us into the war as in Ukraine ... And the approach there is comprehensive and if you don’t see everything, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t.

                    And for the volumes of supplies that we now have in Syria go BDK 775 for the eyes. Then (I’m not sure if you correct something) you can and does not sit down. Discard the ramp. So the BDK for today's purposes in Syria is it.


                    You are either a troll (forgive me) or do not know how to read - dovani49 says that we do not have a supply of large landing ships, everything is working at the limit and on this route we will finish off the remnants of their resource and be left without a "landing" !!! Well, about dumping from the ramp - this is generally the finish ... Firstly, the spread (who will we throw off?), And secondly, you do not admit that there, besides the "cereals" and "pasta", also carry "microwaves"? ...
                    1. SamSeBse
                      +2
                      13 December 2014 20: 18
                      Okay, I’ll go away myself.
                2. SamSeBse
                  +1
                  13 December 2014 19: 48
                  Lord and the landing operation in Okinawa, why did you need it? belay
                  Do you seriously assume that the war with Japan will develop according to a nuclear-free scenario? Yes, you throw it to God laughing And whatever the desire in Japan would arise, close the islands from the air and have a strong Pacific Fleet.

                  donavi49 I agree. But an integrated approach. Either harness or walk the forest.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2014 20: 38
                    Lord and the landing operation in Okinawa, why did you need it? belay
                    Do you seriously assume that the war with Japan will develop according to a nuclear-free scenario? Yes, you throw it to God laughing. And whatever Japan wants, close the islands from the air and have a strong Pacific Fleet.

                    donavi49 agree. But an integrated approach. Either harness or walk the forest.


                    I didn’t need Okinawa for anything (except perhaps to go on a tour), but they really need the "Northern Territories" - read the Kuril Islands, and the UDC for the bases created there are very suitable ships.
                    I really hope that there will be no war with them, and if God forbid, and comes to an armed confrontation, then yes I think that this confrontation will be nuclear-free.
                    In order to close Japan by air, and to recreate a strong Pacific Fleet, time and money are needed, and the Mistrals would be there now.
                    1. SamSeBse
                      +1
                      13 December 2014 20: 49
                      Since Okinawa American base any conflict with Japan leads to automatic US intervention. Further explain? So why the hell do you land in the radioactive territory, given that most likely no one will land? Minstrali weather will not do. No strike ships to escort. And without them it’s a trough. Yes, and with them the same. So to recreate the Pacific Fleet in any way with the Ministries without ...

                      Quote: SamSebe
                      Okay, I’ll go away myself.

                      This is final.
                      1. 0
                        13 December 2014 20: 58
                        Since Okinawa American base any conflict with Japan leads to automatic US intervention. Further explain? So why the hell do you land in the radioactive territory, given that most likely no one will land?


                        What does Okinawa have to do with it? Is Iturup also a base for an American? There will be no aggression on our part, but the Japanese can have bad thoughts on our account, at least until all infrastructure is restored there.
                        The Americans, as we would not like, will not unleash a nuclear war until the last ...
                        In support of my words - a new military doctrine, which introduced the article of non-nuclear deterrence ...
                3. +1
                  15 December 2014 16: 41
                  Quote: gfs84
                  Something not particularly our flying "transports" flew to Tartus ... Everything is somehow holding on to the 775 BDK project ... And how do you imagine the landing of "Ruslan" somewhere on Kunashir or Iturup?

                  Why do we need for tasks supply с unloading in the port or on the roadstead is the DVKD? Yes, if they had given it to us, then it could and should have been involved in this work, giving time to repair the 775s. But now we do not have a DVDKD.

                  Wasn't it easier for the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs during that year, while the situation around Ukraine was escalating, to insure itself and organize the purchase of ships that could duplicate the tasks of the Mistral in this particular operation? For the Syrian express, 2-3 ro-rokers owned and under the flag of the Russian Navy (our Atlantic Conveyor) would be enough.
                  1. 0
                    15 December 2014 18: 48
                    Wasn't it easier for the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs during that year, while the situation around Ukraine was escalating, to insure itself and organize the purchase of ships that could duplicate the tasks of the Mistral in this particular operation? For the Syrian express, 2-3 ro-rokers owned and under the flag of the Russian Navy (our Atlantic Conveyor) would be enough.


                    If I honestly did not think about such a way out in this particular situation. Yes, a way out, but apparently there are some reasons that do not allow solving this problem in this vein (I would like, of course, what is the reason, I do not exclude a simple "inertia" in the approaches to the layout of the transport fleet).
              2. +3
                13 December 2014 19: 35
                Do you think that AN-124 and IL-86 are not enough for humanitarian aid? Are we going to save everyone now?


                Just an 2 example:
                Syria - to which it is not possible to fly by plane, either the Greeks or the Turks will land, as was already the case with the scandal. But ships without difficulty, we have a BS with a call at the base of Tartus. And even to the UN or to Psaki this cannot be done, because there is no way to complain about it, and the tornadoes, cords and DIAs there materialized themselves, just like ZIPs and generally three years of war require a huge amount of scarce things.

                Yugoslavia 99 - to which by Airplanes only after numerous approvals and negotiations with Western partners. But by sea, it was possible to agree with the Balkan partners. Unload and transit.
              3. icy
                0
                14 December 2014 22: 55
                Have you heard about the channel in Nicaragua? China is building, the Russian Federation provides security. One mistral in the Atlantic (Black Sea Fleet), the second in the quiet (TF), 2 in rotation. You are a smart person, but you need to think a little ahead, as in chess.
          2. icy
            -1
            14 December 2014 22: 47
            I do not agree with "2-3 years". The recovery began earlier - in 1999, when GDP came. I work as a designer, we have a competent and smart head of department, born in 1979, in 1999 he was 20. Well, there are also younger ones.
      2. +4
        13 December 2014 19: 06
        Well, there is the Bison! There are Dugongs smile . Vaughn Chamois with MAN reached the customer.

        The Marines are deployed to the 4 brigade + 61 regiment being reorganized into a brigade and a separate regiment in Kamchatka with their tasks.

        At 4 unrelated theaters there will be 10 BDK and the Bison + Dugongs and Chamois.
        1. 0
          13 December 2014 19: 23
          Vaughn Chamois with MAN reached the customer.


          And do they make German mana or somewhere in our country? But in the same place, in any case, cretic components (fuel equipment, piston components, etc.) are imported - if it happens that again there is nothing to replace (((

          And on the 11770 - M503A project, is this something new or an "upgrade" of the Soviet legacy?

          And I always thought that the Zubrs (12322) were equipped with gas turbines ... What kind of diesel engines are there to produce such dynamic characteristics?
          1. 0
            13 December 2014 19: 43
            Damn stupid wrote the wrong way (((
          2. +4
            13 December 2014 19: 45
            The most that neither is Soviet, even without an upgrade, and Serna is also a legacy.

            MAN definitely does not ship in Russia, but there is a comprehensive service center.

            On the Bison gas turbine, and in order to produce them it is not enough to return Nikolaev from Zorya, it is necessary to revive production.
            1. +1
              13 December 2014 20: 01
              Thank! Forgive the name I do not know (

              MAN definitely does not ship in Russia, but there is a comprehensive service center.


              That is, we will be able to extend the resource, but no more ... Yes, and if at any time they may refuse to rohodniki (I want that under the contract there are ZIPs for the full life cycle).

              On the Bison gas turbine, and in order to produce them it is not enough to return Nikolaev from Zorya, it is necessary to revive production.


              Now it is clear why the creation of such a media atmosphere around the "Bison" that they say we don't really need them and generally "eat" a lot ...
              And how did you manage to repair a couple of "Bison" for China - on the ground?
              1. +2
                13 December 2014 20: 17
                Yes, on a backlog, there are still a couple of three, but the third is not enough sad . Although maybe it was sent to the Chinese comrades to disassemble and master.
                1. +1
                  13 December 2014 20: 25
                  Yes, on a backlog, there are still a couple of them, but the third is not enough :(. Although maybe it was sent to the Chinese comrades to disassemble and master.


                  So, if I am not mistaken, they did it at the SZ "More", and the Chinese seem to have taken the third from the Greeks. Most likely they will go to the Baltic as "donors". Although the Crimeans (as a minimum of the local glam of the Ministry of Industry) hope to resume production for the needs of the Russian Navy
        2. Kassandra
          +1
          13 December 2014 21: 27
          and how I would like to burn all this with helicopter fuel or immediately drown in one "mistral" ... am
      3. +3
        13 December 2014 19: 29
        no one panic! pros say what is in the open press and the information is true! so please don’t shout if you don’t know, but you know, better keep silent.
    3. +3
      13 December 2014 20: 30
      "And the result is this: ...
      Three 775s of the first series will die - this is the Northern Fleet without a BDK, it will have to be pulled from other fleets by ship.
      2 out of 4 Pacific Fleet will die or will be conditionally running cars.

      That's right, but here's the trick - Misral can not replace a single BDK, because can be used exclusively in warm waters and with little excitement. Really - Gulf of Aden - against the pirates.
      Was it worth paying that much money?
      1. 0
        16 December 2014 12: 29
        Quote: ARS56
        That's right, but here's the trick - Misral can not replace a single BDK, because can be used exclusively in warm waters and with little excitement.

        Do you confuse the original Mistral with our project? On our Mistrals, at the request of the Customer, the hull was reinforced and prepared for work in low temperatures.
        Actually, because of our requirements for the revision of the original project, our Mistrals came out so expensive.
        1. 0
          16 December 2014 19: 23
          Quote: Alexey RA
          On our Mistrals, at the request of the Customer, the hull was reinforced

          I don’t remember how many times this was explained.
        2. Kassandra
          0
          17 December 2014 11: 19
          but not for the fact that French fuel and lubricants would be needed for their operation? or in order to do them yourself, you will need to build several refineries
          1. 0
            17 December 2014 19: 25
            In fact, they refueled with us during the visit and nothing.
            1. +1
              17 December 2014 20: 17
              Quote: Dart2027
              In fact, they refueled with us during the visit and nothing.

              In fact, if anything, fuels and lubricants are not only combustible but also LUBRICANTS MATERIALS.
              Doubtfully widespread use
              wink
    4. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        13 December 2014 20: 46
        That's right, but here's the trick - Misral can not replace a single BDK, because can be used exclusively in warm waters and with little excitement. Really - Gulf of Aden - against the pirates.
        Was it worth paying that much money?


        "Mistrals" were primarily planned for the Pacific Fleet, and in the Syrian direction (agree the waters are quite warm) 2 UDC could easily replace all BDK 775 of the project, so that they would not waste the remaining resource and live to see replacement.
        Regarding money - give an example of UDC which is cheaper, the argument that Russia would have made cheaper is not accepted, firstly it’s not the fact that it’s cheaper (though money would have gone into our economy, which is a definite Plus), secondly, we need them now, and not by the 50th year, as laid down in the rearmament program.
        1. Kassandra
          0
          18 December 2014 03: 33
          such fishing rods are good - you just have to drown two so that nothing is left of the Marine Corps, but you would have to chase every 775 and 1174
          and how helicopter fuel from 16 pieces will burn - generally a fairy tale (bad) ...
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. +5
    13 December 2014 18: 52
    Humiliation "Mistrals" ... Humiliated and insulted in this situation is France and no one else. A country with a centuries-old, rich and glorious history finally caved in under a young brazen nation of gangsters and swindlers. Russia, by and large, has not lost anything: neither financially (the money, one way or another, the French will return), nor politically (there is another reason to reproach France and Brussels, which actively pushed it for political conjuncture).
    The Mistrals became a kind of litmus test that clearly and finally showed the whole world the vassal position of Europe in relation to the United States. This is the beginning of Europe's journey to its future place of the tertiary region on the world map. The European society has already been turned into a kind of "swamp" diluted by immigrants with impressive islands of pederasty, unnatural to man as a biological species. The movement of Europe towards its decline has begun. In opposition to him, Russia began to move towards its future rise. This is what frightens our "partners", because they are not "partners" to us, but the most that neither is enemies and opponents. And not "potential" at all.
  28. +8
    13 December 2014 18: 53
    Quote: starshina pv
    ordered two troughs,

    Articles on this subject are full of laudatory and abusive. Let's start from elementary logic. If it were worthless troughs, would a particularly enlightened part of the world become so indignant?
    1. ICT
      +4
      13 December 2014 19: 03
      Well, at least men on business trips will rise lol
      1. +7
        13 December 2014 19: 19
        Quote: TIT
        Well, at least men on business trips will rise
        It would not be bad, the main thing is that they would not let me down for treatment or alimony ... France is she ...
  29. +14
    13 December 2014 19: 04
    It is still proposed to separate the flies from cutlets.
    Regarding the conclusion of the transaction for the purchase of these floating suitcases, a separate conversation. Who, why, for what. With separate conclusions, entries and, possibly, punishments.
    But regarding the failure to fulfill the transaction with the French service - the conversation is different.
    They didn’t wash us.
    They threw us.
    And why, it doesn’t matter.
    This must be remembered and punished. So that from now on it would be disgraceful. As in the place of the government, I would definitely come up with.
    1. 0
      13 December 2014 20: 30
      Quote: Lance
      This must be remembered and punished. That henceforth it was not discouraging.

      And to do it harshly, I wrote once, that we should seriously frown at this France if the contract is not fulfilled.
    2. 0
      13 December 2014 21: 42
      Quote: Lance

      They didn’t wash us.
      They threw us.
      And why, it doesn’t matter.
      This must be remembered and punished. So that from now on it would be disgraceful. As in the place of the government, I would definitely come up with.

      I give an option - to refuse to supply France with everything that it planned to receive from Russia. From gas to Russian dolls, from various metals in ingots to the participation of the French team in the 2018 World Cup. By the way, the LAST need to extend to the entire pro-American camalire. Some of her already tried, it was, to declare their non-participation in the upcoming world championship. So: they don’t want to refuse - we don’t want to see their cowards at our stadiums. BRICS and sympathizers are always welcome. The rest - from our GERMAN ACCEPTANCE, upon presentation of receipts for payment of gas and other ...
  30. Ivanhoe
    0
    13 December 2014 19: 59
    The purchase, repair and modernization of the Russian aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov" in total cost India 2,33 billion green
    1. icy
      +1
      14 December 2014 23: 04
      It would have been cheaper if the Indians did not demand replacing the standard turbine refrigerators with Western ones, which failed at the very first sea trials.
      1. 0
        15 December 2014 15: 38
        Quote: icas
        if Indians did not demand to replace regular turbine refrigerators

        Hmm, we decided to follow the advice of Solomon _ who multiplies knowledge, multiplies sorrow ?
        Purely rhetorically _
        It is reported that when testing the cruiser’s propulsion system at maximum speed, seven out of eight of its steam boilers failed. The likely reason for this is the refusal of the Indian side to use asbestos traditionally used for thermal insulation of boilers due to the increased danger to the crew and replacing it with refractory brickwork.

        hi
  31. +5
    13 December 2014 20: 00
    Yes, Mistral is not needed. It will pass the period to claim through the court a refund and a penalty. Let them cut the feed or pay 10 times the cost of production and transportation. And let these monuments remain France a reminder of their puppet game.
  32. +7
    13 December 2014 20: 02
    And yet, the main culprits — DAM and Serdyukov — should be brought to justice for the criminal scam on the purchase of Misral.
    The people must know their antiheroes.
    The purchase of military equipment from a potential enemy for military use should be equated to sabotage and terrorist activity against Russia.
  33. +2
    13 December 2014 20: 07
    France has strong lawyers and has more experience with such matters. In other words, so far the compensation is a crane in the sky

    Why is it a crane? The agreement clearly says: did not set the ships on time - drive the grandmother. negative What is written with a pen - you can’t cut it with an ax.
    Another question is that the French can start red tape. Yes, and European courts in recent times do not differ in justice.
  34. +6
    13 December 2014 20: 11
    The French were also humiliated!
    In the Foto - Parisians look at the German army entering the city
    1. +1
      13 December 2014 20: 57
      Parisians look at the German army entering the city
      ......... her, not so .......... to the French leaving Paris crying ....... and on the Mistrals we still reckon, life is long stopRussians always come and take for their money (though they love to give alms with both hands, but this is from another opera)
  35. Ivan 63
    +5
    13 December 2014 20: 27
    All over the world, only power is respected - unlike us - where they still count on the truth. Alas, this is so, dill is an example.
    1. +2
      13 December 2014 22: 15
      Quote: Ivan 63
      All over the world, only power is respected - unlike us - where they still count on the truth. Alas, this is so, dill is an example.

      But still POWER IN TRUTH !!!
  36. +9
    13 December 2014 21: 00
    Yes, we need them this Mistral, as a pregnant woman, menstruation. Three years ago, in one of the magazines, military experts wrote that we had nothing to do with such a ship, and this trough was decently obsolete. Sailors back to their homeland, our stern back and money with forfeit, too, and all the short-lived.
  37. +3
    13 December 2014 21: 26
    Yes, you are swept up with these thoughts, you need to return the money back and forget about it.
    We are a rich country plaque, and we love to learn from our mistakes. Like a plaque, this is all easy.
  38. +1
    13 December 2014 21: 27
    DECEMBER 14 ISSUED. AND LETS WHO WHO WILL BE PUSHED.
  39. +3
    13 December 2014 21: 28
    the mysterious deal, which today is turning into shame, is one of the last high-profile initiatives of Dmitry Medvedev, close to collapse.
    ... the main culprits humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who self-interest for the sake of or thoughtlessly promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. I would ask them. But this is hardly possible with us.
    Author Alexander Mozgovoy

    And that the people of the Russian Federation agree with this?
    The people who, according to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, Article 3, where it is recorded and we voted for it,
    1. The bearer of sovereignty and the only source of power in the Russian Federation is its multinational people.
    .
    The people are silent and, apparently, are waiting for "manna from heaven" from the eloquent eloquence, lover of foreign gadgets.
  40. MaksudKilla31
    +3
    13 December 2014 21: 37
    No, the paddlers are very avid for money and in the end they will give us these mistals! BUT!-
    It will already be two Trojan horses! Stuffed .....
  41. Tribuns
    +6
    13 December 2014 21: 46
    According to the Russian lobby for the construction of the Mistral by France, the following persons were:
    1. "The Russian oligarch and Senator Sergei Pugachev, now declared by Interpol on the international wanted list"
    2. "The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky"
    3. "Chief of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces, Army General Nikolai Makarov"
    4. "The then president of the Russian Federation, Dmitry Anatolyevich Medvedev, now serving as prime minister."

    In connection with the persons listed, the question asked by the author is: “WHO WILL ANSWER THIS?” it seems to go unanswered ... It’s good that the author’s conclusion about the true culprits of this story with the “Mistrals” is correct: “The main culprits of the humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for the sake of or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. I would ask them. But this is hardly possible with us. ”
  42. +3
    13 December 2014 21: 47
    “The main culprits of Russia's humiliation are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who are selfish or through thoughtlessness.” This is what makes us sad. Our officials are capable of doing so much harm to their native land that no enemy can do it.
  43. +1
    13 December 2014 21: 56
    The torpedoing of the Mistral deal is quite systemic. Judging by the published information, the Russian military department was interested not so much in "hardware" as in technology. And nowhere was there a mention of some kind of qualitative breakthrough on the issue of strengthening the defense capability against the Mistrals. The interesting part of the deal is the "project" price. Namely, its corruption component. It looks like the dog is buried in that. After all, if the supply is not delivered or the contract is canceled, all this "dirty linen" will undoubtedly emerge in the international arbitration court. It remains to be seen to what level of senior officials, including Russian ones, this chain of consequences will reach and how it will hit the political image of Russia. hi
    1. 0
      13 December 2014 22: 14
      That is why we will endure humiliation, God forbid that something comes up.
  44. 0
    13 December 2014 22: 25
    War, war, war! soldier
  45. +1
    13 December 2014 22: 31
    I think one of the reasons for the "pacification" in Novorossiya, and there is a problem with the "Mistrals" now while there is a shaky "peace" one ship will be given to us.
    but I still think we don’t need this ship now, it would be better if we built a couple of strike ships, or modernized the existing ones.
    And of course, there is no need to buy anything ready for the defense industry in the future, only for the “bad” end of the license.
  46. +1
    13 December 2014 22: 40
    <<< However, the main culprits of Russia's humiliation are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for the sake of selfishness or thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. I would ask them. But this is hardly possible with us. >>>
    Really! The equality of all before the law, which often, excuse my harshness, is taldychat from the high stands, as it was, remains just a good wish very far from reality and Russia, to the great regret and open dissatisfaction of the people, remains a country of NOT SCARED THORESHIPS!
  47. +3
    13 December 2014 22: 52
    There are political deals when they don’t look at prices. So the arrival of the pro-Russian party in France is possible, plus we need a split in the EU.

    Mistral - this is not cartridges for the machine. This is an essential element of politics. This was a rapprochement with France. Putin, even on the pot, should have a headache on this issue, and not the back seat.

    Listen well, how did it get.
    It was enough that the USSR, and now the Russian Federation, give everything to everyone just like that - money, equipment, food.
    They give, they give, and then they go and solemnly write off debts. Only recently - Cuba, Vietnam, Uzbekistan. And before that, it was generally not counted, as Khazanov had there - they exchanged the metallurgical plant for a parrot.

    Moreover, people are always so kind, I remember from Soviet times - Putin is no different in this regard.
    Where does this idiocy come from at the state level?

    Has anyone heard the United States forgive debts or the United Kingdom?
    And almost the whole world is holding eggs for them, the same Uzbekistan (for example, right now)

    And the effect of our "gifts" is not enough for a very short time, sometimes it is just for "pilaf" and a cup of tea to drink during the visit, although it would have been served))

    Medvedev, I think, personally received the commission for the Mistral. He covered himself with some mythical "mixing of the conflict with Georgia".

    Bl ... the fish rots from the head. More precisely, as the first person acts, so do the rest. "do as I do".
    After all, all the business genius of Putin’s friends (he says so - they say my friends are super men) is that they are close to Putin. Timchenko, Rotenbergs, Millers, Sechins, Yakunins ...
    Can't others be?
    Luzhkov’s Baturin was also an incredibly successful business woman. And in this way almost everyone in Russia is doing it now.
    The main business task on which all mental abilities and financial resources are put is to keep your own as high as possible.
    Therefore, it will never appear in modern Russia either its Apple, XP, or Mercedes ... the brain is busy with another. And in real affairs - they exploit the operating time that remains from Stalin's time and a little after (if to be honest) and all unfortunately. Well, or buy ready-made abroad, not forgetting about your pocket.

    Skidded me, sorry. It's a shame for the power.

    South Korea, 20-25 years ago, did not know how to build normal ships. Now, Sykalavos South Korea is the undisputed world leader in civil shipbuilding.
    Why this did not happen in Russia, where there is almost everything ... I understand in general.
    The trouble is shorter.
    sad
    1. 0
      13 December 2014 23: 06
      Commissars and "old Bolsheviks", new liberals, today's jingoistic patriots who destroyed the power of Russia never allowed themselves to cry bitterly with words
      Skidded me, sorry. It's a shame for the power.

      love
    2. Kassandra
      0
      14 December 2014 00: 28
      what didn’t happen? South Korea built at least one submarine? ... it's harder than space.
  48. +1
    13 December 2014 23: 04
    However, the main culprits of Russia's humiliation are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials, who, for the sake of sake (...) promoted this deal.

    What is significant: we know all of them well, and every day we see their smug grins on TV screens .. The iPhone, probably, even under EBN, got hooked by the Americans. I personally cannot explain the catastrophic nature of his activities for Russia in another way ..
  49. Sendi7s
    +2
    13 December 2014 23: 05
    It was the French who spoiled their reputation, not humiliated Russia. Now the whole world knows that France is an unscrupulous partner, deals with it cannot be concluded, they will be "thrown" to please the American masters.
    And now, during the "economic war" into which Russia was dragged, it would be very useful to sue the penalty ... And France - let these helicopter carriers be scrapped later. After all, their owners said unequivocally that the Mistrals should not be given to Russia, but the French themselves must pay the penalty for them. So let them pay the bills.
    1. +1
      14 December 2014 00: 05
      Quote: Sendi7S
      Now the whole world knows that France is an unscrupulous partner, you can’t conclude deals with it,

      Has this at least somehow affected France's portfolio of orders ???
  50. +3
    13 December 2014 23: 07
    A significant event happened - the EU countries confirmed their status as US colonies, no longer vassals, but simply colonies. So in this connection, is it possible to conclude some kind of agreement with them if they are not competent? An independent state can conclude a treaty, but not a colony at all. I think they still do not understand what they have done. With them, even the third world countries will soon be afraid of treaties. They themselves are not masters, what then to ask from them? You can also humiliate them by the fact that henceforth require the signature of the United States on the treaties as the metropolis of their colony.
  51. +3
    13 December 2014 23: 28
    And now, during the “economic war” into which Russia has been drawn, it would be very useful to sue for a penalty...

    Why Russia did not undertake to sue France for something is also generally understandable. In my opinion, the EU, or rather private companies and banks, is quite capable of demanding early payment of debts (loans, repayment of Eurobonds, etc.) by Russian companies.
    This is a hundred times more amount than those unfortunate 3 billion euros for the Mistral, and almost all large Russian borrowers are companies with a controlling stake in the state, that is, such a hidden state external debt.
    And it will look like something completely unrelated to the Mistrals. As for the Mistrals, the decision of some independent court (which really does not exist) is also quite predictable: It’s a fig with butter, not the Mistrals... or money.

    By the way, international (read American) rating agencies are already quietly preparing this story, diligently lowering Russia’s credit rating. The Mistrals will seem like a tumbler toy... if anything...

    So the statements about the contract and the tarnished reputation of France are, by and large, just figures of speech. We need to say something.
    1. Kassandra
      0
      15 December 2014 16: 21
      Well, these debts will be “forgiven” to them, just like the Mistral and the property of French companies in the Russian Federation will be nationalized, that’s all... wassat
  52. 0
    13 December 2014 23: 50
    the author floridly but specifically leads to the idea that the government and the President need to be removed because he does not remove those who made a deal for Mistral-class ships...
    1. +1
      14 December 2014 00: 15
      The cognitive dissonance

      In history there is no understanding POSSIBLE.
      In it, facts and myths are a foggy BALANCE.
      Today we are all being introduced to CONSCIOUSNESS,
      That plebs are uncharacteristic of HARMONY feelings -
      The elite will rid the country of agony,
      Slightly increasing your STATE.
      They broadcast from the rostrum without IRON at all:
      Without them, we will wait for continuous CACOPHONY.
      It is not the deed that is important, but CONTEMPLATION is important.
      And we have cognitive DISSONANCE.
      In freedom there are dangers, everything is UNRELIABLE.

      And we, multiplying like those INFUSORIES,
      They did not become the creators of Russian HISTORY.
  53. +1
    14 December 2014 05: 52
    By the way, the problematic mistral deal, which today turns into a shame, is one of the last high-profile initiatives by Dmitry Medvedev, which is close to collapse. Previously, the struggle with the light, that is, with incandescent bulbs, summertime, introduced in the winter, and other similar “beginnings”, rested in the Bose.

    Well, at least tear me to pieces, but you cannot find a person in the country who would harm Russia more than the above-mentioned citizen, who for some time, most likely due to a misunderstanding, occupied the highest position in the country! And contrary to reason and logic, he still works in the second role......
  54. 0
    14 December 2014 06: 35
    Quote: Su24
    Nor are the arguments convincing that France, having refused to supply Mistral to Russia, will undermine its credibility as a reliable arms exporter

    Judging by this statement, Marine Le Pen simply called the president of her country a soft-bodied omooeba, and the country a paper poodle, the USA, because there is nothing to do. But she is not a housewife, and she did not express this to her husband in the kitchen.
  55. +2
    14 December 2014 07: 54
    I “like” it when all the sins of past years, including the sin with the Mistrals, are blamed on the “zits of the chairman” Medvedev, Taburetkin and other figures, forgetting that in those times, as in today, all strategic decisions, including personnel decisions, hosted by Vladimir "Red Sun". He then covered and continues to cover everyone who has their face in the dust, including Medvedev, Serdyukov, statesmen and oligarchs who have robbed and continue to rob the country. The main thing is that they are loyal to him, at least outwardly, and carry out the highest instructions without hesitation. After all, how does Abramovich differ from Khodorkovsky or the late Berezovsky? Nothing in principle. It’s just that both Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky thought of themselves and turned their horns on Putin, for which they paid, and the quietest Abramovich did what V.V. Yeltsin’s family told him to do. and after her V.V. with his comrades and lives happily for himself, being, in fact, the holder of the “common fund” and the treasurer of both. And the story with the Mistrals is not something exceptional, but only a logical continuation of the vicious system created on the ruins of the Union and which has not gone anywhere to this day. And so that the people do not delve too deeply into these matters, there is an imitation of vigorous activity, including in the military sphere.
    By the way, since the beginning of privatization, this area has been and remains very convenient for large-scale disbursement of budget funds and all sorts of kickbacks, because many things can be pried off quietly, hiding behind the stamps “secret” and “owl secret” and promising unprecedented achievements and technological breakthroughs in 20, 30 and 50 years, when the “promisedkins” will no longer be in sight, but all sins can be attributed to them , as now they write off sins on those who can no longer be reached or there is no particular desire to reach them.
    In general, the skill of the Russian, Belarusian, etc. authorities. including the Western authorities, it is only enviable to fool their own people. This skill has been honed to perfection, and the people accept any bluff of the authorities with a bang, with deep inspiration and no less deep gratitude.
    Then the authorities change either for natural reasons or for artificial ones, the memory of the previous authorities is spat upon with no less enthusiasm and everything starts anew.
    On which I congratulate myself and all of you.
    For the disadvantages (which is natural, since he encroached on the “holy” rulers of the lands of the former USSR) I am grateful in advance.
  56. 0
    14 December 2014 09: 09
    Quote: Alexander Mozgovoy
    However, the main culprits for Russia’s humiliation are not the malicious Americans, but the Russian officials who, out of self-interest or thoughtlessness, promoted this deal.

    After reading the article I remembered the unforgettable lines _
    For the sake of a few lines in the newspaper...

    So, dear forum members, in my opinion, it was precisely for the sake of these above lines that everything was written.
    Alas and pity.
    But in fact, the author completely ignores the axiom _
    You cannot offend, insult, anger, or cause hatred, envy, etc.
  57. +1
    14 December 2014 11: 11
    Regarding Medvedev... He just always carefully does what his superiors tell him.
    As soon as he starts to “steer” himself, it turns out something like the memorable “seasons”, mistrals...

    This is not happening because he (Medvedev) is bad or evil, or a conscious saboteur. No.
    It’s just that the level of his competence and professional suitability for his position has long been exceeded.
    He was a very good lawyer at Ilim Pulp.
    I stopped at that level, why more? After all, the vast majority get into the highest Russian echelons of power not for professionalism, but for completely different qualities... smile Unfortunately.

    Vladimir "red sun" smile and he’s not much of a business executive himself... smile but to attribute all sins to him personally is overkill.
    Kr. Solnyshka has one big drawback - he selects personnel unsuitable for the purpose of raising Russia. And then he clings to these shots until he’s blue in the face. So they will kill him.
  58. 0
    14 December 2014 13: 05
    Mestrals were bought to help each other with orders during the crisis and as a sign of respect for our good neighborly relations - Putin himself said this. But no, it’s not for us, but we’re still waiting for them to come to their senses. You can always ruin a relationship quickly, but restore it...
    1. 0
      14 December 2014 13: 50
      Dear, the fact that you respect Putin is good, but why you don’t respect the Russian language is not entirely clear. Those. It’s not at all clear. After all, you are yours to him, his native language. Mestralami Svenyu you add that it’s not a great greyhound to eat
  59. 0
    14 December 2014 15: 21
    Well, the same thing again!
    These bastards didn’t buy Mistrals, but friendly relations with France. After the Union collapsed, we decided to cooperate with the West. And the position of the six that is offered to us does not suit our authorities. So they are trying to make friends with European countries, either wholesale or retail. Therefore, how much these Mistrals are needed by the Navy is not the main question. This was basically a political deal. Surely the decision was made at the very top, and not some commander in chief...
    As for our Navy, that’s a completely different topic. Yeltsin generally blamed everything. Putin is a reprieve from final collapse. Well, they are building something... And if someone needs to be punished for the current state of the army and navy and for food and economic security, then it is not only ALL POWER STRUCTURES, BUT ALSO THEMSELVES. Since 91, this is all we have. Haven't moved in yet? So you have to enter, otherwise you might end up on the Maidan, where the nationalists, together with Nemtsov, Navalny and Latynina, will finish off Russia.
    Visit eot.su! Read, think, join.
  60. 0
    14 December 2014 15: 25
    ...the main culprits of Russia's humiliation are not the malicious Americans, but the Russian officials who, out of self-interest or thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. You should ask them. But this is hardly possible for us...

    Which of the Pinocchio malvinas went to negotiate with the Lyon bank to pay for the mines, there was info.
    whether they will give the mingestrals or not, kickbacks, rollbacks, dividends, non-stands, etc. all this is no longer interesting, it will be interesting when the big boss makes a decision to spin this whole story back.
    Something else bothers me: where are the guarantees that at hour “H” these two ships will not turn into uncontrollable troughs? And the second question: maybe we need more air-cushion landing craft, which can immediately climb onto a 2-meter bank and move further through the bushes and small forests?
  61. 0
    14 December 2014 16: 02
    Quote: from article
    Secondly, in terms of their capabilities and tactical and technical characteristics, the Mistrals are inferior to other foreign analogues, for example, the South Korean Tokdo DVKD. This is not to mention the American universal landing ships (UDC) of the "Tarawa", "Wasp" and "America" ​​types, as well as the Spanish UDC "Juan Carlos I" and its Australian analogues of the "Canberra" type, which not only can land troops , but are also capable of acting as full-fledged light aircraft carriers.


    But we don’t remember about our own... They chased after “imports”...

    Follow the link and make sure that the “foreign” designers never dreamed (until now!!!) of the scope of the ideas of Soviet shipbuilders...
    HERE:http://nnm.me/blogs/Dmitry68/nash-mistral-proekty-sovetskih-avianesushih-desantn
    yh-ships/
    1. Kassandra
      0
      14 December 2014 17: 16
      Normal people don’t stuff airplanes/helicopters with their aviation kerosene into a single healthy building with troops under the same pool, and therefore under one bomb. Kerosene burns much better than diesel fuel or fuel oil.
      Have you tried smoking at a gas station? Do you know what kind of fires there were on Forrestal and Enterprise?

      You don’t need anything larger than the “rhinoceros” 1174pr - unlike it, the mistral does not know how to land everything at the water’s edge at once if there is such an opportunity, and it is in most cases. While he is slowly dragging troops with heavy equipment with his sailing boats, he will simply be burned or drowned by aircraft. And now all non-Papuans have one, even the Qatari princelings.

      For a helicopter landing on rhinoceroses, helicopters simply flew in from escort ships or TAVKR ships, picked up Marines from two landing sites and dropped them off later. If he could not land the equipment directly from the hold onto the beach, then only then would barges carry it with its crews.

      landing ships like aircraft carriers d.b. the smaller the better for the dispersal of forces and the difficulty of defeating them.
      Classic aircraft carriers with a horizontal landing are now huge, both because of the very method of landing on them large heavy high-speed jets, and in order to be able to take them in strong seas/rolling... The STOVL aircraft carrier has everything on its side.
    2. Kassandra
      0
      14 December 2014 17: 43
      PS. the landing by the Americans with their AAS was never carried out in combat! if only against Grenada, which was defended by 200 Cubans with construction excavators and AKMs.
      in the Falklands, English LPDs took a long time to unload from under the very shore and not “over the horizon” (which would have been even longer) and both were almost sunk, despite the fact that Argentinean aircraft flew against them from the mainland.
      in Vietnam, the US Marines landed on an unequipped coast in the rear of the South Vietnamese troops that already controlled it, rather than capturing it from the North Vietnamese.
      with these Mistrals, using them as landing ships, you can restore order only among cocoa bean producers who do not have serious combat aircraft, which is what France is doing.
      the aircraft carrier stays much further from the shore than the AAS - it is there for coastal aviation and anti-ship missiles much less vulnerable than the landing LPD/AAS, which should be much closer to the shore.
  62. 0
    14 December 2014 19: 26
    Quote: Author Alexander Mozgovo
    That is, until mid-February next year we must endure French slaps and turn our right and left cheeks for slaps.

    This is a fact.
    Is there a way out?

    We (banks, companies) owe France the most.
    Technical default?

    According to Bank of Russia estimates, by the end of 2015 there will be repay about $200 billion of external corporate debt. Let’s say half of it is “friendly” and can be easily extended or repaid without using cash (as was the case in the third quarter). But there is still about $100 billion left that will need to be repaid.

    If only the Russian authorities didn’t choose the worst OPTION – doing nothing and “searching” (or rather simulating it) for enemies who can be held responsible for what is happening.
    1. Kassandra
      0
      15 December 2014 16: 24
      "debt write-off" ... together with the Mistrals and the nationalization of the property of French companies in the Russian Federation.
  63. 0
    15 December 2014 07: 24
    What morbid pride the author has! But this mistralism does not humiliate me, my family, friends and acquaintances in any way!
  64. 0
    15 December 2014 10: 20
    However, the main culprits of humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for selfishness or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. With them, and ask. But this is hardly possible with us.
    Our respected president, given the current circumstances, should follow Serdyukov
    dismiss other so-called government “figures”, and the General Prosecutor’s Office of the Russian Federation
    order to arrange a serious investigation into the scandal with the Mistrals! It would be better if they themselves confessed before it was too late, because it is easy to lose the trust of the people, but very difficult to win back. Only they are weak.
    Because these false patriots have already lost all respect.
  65. 0
    15 December 2014 10: 33
    Quote: GRF
    It is necessary that Stalin is not over everyone,
    And so that everyone has a conscience ...

    It is not necessary to expose Stalin as an overseer ...
    People because of Stalin, if they died, are much less likely than for Stalin ...
    The difference ... however ...


    5 points hi . If there is an inner core, if there is a conscience inside, then they won’t call Stalin as a horror story. As an idea, a flag, something unifying - yes.
  66. 0
    15 December 2014 12: 00
    Hmm... Moisha Medvedev couldn’t help but be liberal...
  67. kig
    +1
    15 December 2014 12: 56
    However, the main culprits of humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for selfishness or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. With them, and ask. But this is hardly possible with us.

    - absolutely to the point.
  68. 0
    15 December 2014 12: 57
    Not needed am Russia, pelvis!
  69. 0
    15 December 2014 14: 21
    And these people are still in the leadership of the country... And they rule at a moment of crisis... Where are they steering?
    People are buzzing, but they don’t give a fuck...
    Dimon regularly shocks with his speeches and actions. They gave me a toy - Russia, so he amuses himself.
    A wave of human hatred must cover these businessmen! The redhead broke his arms, not his neck. He turned away, the rascal. Began?
  70. 0
    15 December 2014 15: 14
    You simply did not understand the message: since there was no mention of the “situation in Ukraine” in the contract, but referred to precisely this, the main message is this: CONTRACTS MAY NOT BE FULFILLED. It's a simple song! Try to find the bright side in a seemingly hopeless situation.
    1. +1
      15 December 2014 15: 59
      Quote: LvKiller
      It's a simple song!

      And THAT!
      Quote: LvKiller
      CONTRACTS MAY NOT BE FULFILLED.

      This is an understatement.
      Failure to fulfill contracts is a loose concept, but in this case we can talk about appropriating someone else’s property!
      What are they counting on?
      After all, the paddling pools can only get away with this in the event of World War III!
      Otherwise _
  71. 0
    15 December 2014 15: 18
    What's the point of discussing the Mistrals? We have already paid money for them (that is, if we lost money, then at the time of payment and at the moment we are somehow violet).
    They’ll give us the Mistrals, okay, they won’t give us back, they’ll pay a penalty.
    Why spoil your nerves over this? They are now being spoiled by French workers and their relatives. This is what they are most worried about right now.
  72. 0
    15 December 2014 16: 35
    Damn liberals! Drive out Medvedev and his entire cabinet. He's a stupid leader and a thief too
  73. +1
    15 December 2014 16: 50
    It’s time to pull out “spare” drawings from the archives for the Yak-141 and work them out on the Yak-141m, and build Mistral-type barges ourselves instead of aircraft carriers of the bigger the better type!
  74. 0
    15 December 2014 17: 15
    I think that Russia no longer needs to order military products from American Europe!!
  75. 0
    15 December 2014 17: 26
    However, the main culprits for Russia’s humiliation are not the malicious Americans, but the Russian officials who, out of self-interest or thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. You should ask them. But this is hardly possible here. Frankly and in person! I feel sorry for the president in this matter!
  76. +1
    15 December 2014 19: 57
    Seize French property in Russia. Russian property has been frozen in much smaller cases.
  77. 0
    15 December 2014 22: 05
    Before purchasing any tool, a person must understand the necessity and validity of this acquisition. Otherwise, the purchase turns into a waste of money (they don’t buy a lift to change tires or oil). So it is with the Mistral - there is no idea about their use within the framework of the Russian military doctrine, real tasks for them are either simply “stretched” or can be solved by other forces, due to their defenselessness, cover is necessary, low speed (lower than the speed of a submarine) will limit use in a group, there is no support infrastructure, etc. and so on.
    A floating suitcase without a handle, just expensive. Try to get these helicopter-carrying barges yourself, find that they do not meet the stated parameters and demand money with all the bonuses.
    Russian officials who, out of self-interest or thoughtlessness, promoted this deal.
    They should be dealt with by supervisory control and investigative bodies.
  78. 0
    15 December 2014 22: 21
    For me, the problem with Mistral is greatly exaggerated. We have a lot of internal problems in our country that the authorities don’t even bother about.
  79. Damir
    0
    15 December 2014 22: 58
    Why do we need these floating coffins? There is no need to enrich Europe. Let them pay the penalty!
  80. LMaksim
    0
    15 December 2014 23: 01
    Why is Russia hanging out with them on the Mistrals? No ships, return the money, pay fines and that’s it. Otherwise, let’s save France’s face.
  81. aba
    0
    16 December 2014 01: 02
    It is still possible to understand the French - the States are putting pressure on them in a way that is not childish. But it is simply impossible to understand your own government. If Mistral is a slap in the face, then Serdyukov and Vasilyeva are a slap in the face and a kick in the ass. It is a pity that we still have more words than deeds in the matter of corruption.
    In principle, in the matter of import substitution there is still the same nonsense.
    It's a shame, very offensive, to the point of a spasm in the throat.
  82. 0
    16 December 2014 04: 47
    We are afraid, we are afraid. Let Serdyukov and Vasilyeva buy it.
  83. MGB
    0
    16 December 2014 05: 24
    However, the main culprits of humiliation of Russia are not malicious Americans, but Russian officials who, for selfishness or by thoughtlessness, promoted this deal. They are well known and in good health. With them, and ask. But this is hardly possible with us.


    My opinion is that we need to start with this problem. Yes, tougher, like in China.
  84. 0
    16 December 2014 13: 21
    In my humble opinion, there is only one way out: “skim the crap out of the shit”... Resolve the political and economic components of the situation! The wallet has always been the most erotic place in the West... Testicles - they are so sensitive...
  85. 0
    16 December 2014 13: 48
    It's time to recall the team from France and promise a good thrashing - you'll see and they'll come to their senses, just like with South Stream.
  86. 0
    16 December 2014 14: 34
    The Commander-in-Chief is also to blame for tolerating the thief Serdyukov imposed on him as Minister of Defense.
  87. Tor5
    0
    16 December 2014 16: 48
    The woman had no worries and decided to buy a completely unnecessary piglet... .
    1. Kassandra
      0
      16 December 2014 18: 46
      Troinsky pig... in which one bomb can burn helicopter fuel or drown a battalion of Marines at a time.
  88. 0
    17 December 2014 01: 10
    Humiliation by the Mistral
    The question is, who humiliated themselves with the Mistral? France yes, but Russia doesn’t care. Russia will replace the Mistral with its own Rotterdams.

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