NATO Secretary General Ian Stoltenberg gave an interview to Russian journalists
O. Ryabtseva― Yen, hello! Alexey Vedeniktov's first question.
A. Venediktov― Mr. Secretary General, what is a greater threat for NATO countries: the policy of the Russian Federation or the "Islamic State"?
J. Stoltenberg It seems to me wrong to try to compare threats of different types. It is important that NATO faces various types of threats, coming from the south, ISIS, an organization that is responsible for acts of violence. This organization is also trying to undermine stability throughout the region. Of course, there are other problems in the East. And speaking of the East, I can say that for many years we have tried to establish cooperative, partnership relations with Russia. We are still trying to build constructive partnerships with this country. But now there is a very unfavorable situation, which has arisen due to the aggressive actions of Russia, primarily in Ukraine. Russia has forcibly changed national borders and continues to try to change borders again by force. This destroys the possibilities for creating partnerships with Russia in which we are interested.
A.Venedictov ― We’ll certainly talk about the relations between Russia, Ukraine and NATO, but still, what do you have a headache now: building a strategy to fight the “Islamic State” or building a fight against Russia?
J.Stoltenberg― These are completely different things. Islamic State terrorist organization. She commits acts of violence in Iraq, Syria. And Russia is a state, and we are interested in constructive relations and cooperation with this country. We want to develop close ties with this country. There is no reason to compare these completely different things and completely different problems. I am very sorry that Russia does not respect the principle of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
O. Ryabtseva― The other day you said that Russia could choose a peaceful path or isolation. Let's talk about this. It seems that NATO and Russia are confronted head-on. Is it so?
J. Stoltenberg I repeat: we don’t want any confrontation with Russia, we don’t need a cold war. We are interested in cooperation, in constructive relations with Russia. But the problem is that Russia should want this too. And the condition of constructive relations and partnership and cooperation is mutual respect. A minimal manifestation of respect is respect for borders, territorial integrity and sovereignty. If these principles are violated, then it is quite obvious that further too becomes difficult.
And I, of course, would very much like Russia to make the right choice. Because she can really choose isolation and continue to violate international law, and try to change official borders by force; or Russia can take the path of cooperation, close partnership with NATO, with the international community, respecting other countries and respecting international law. And I, of course, would like Russia to choose the second option.
A.Venediktov ― Mr. Secretary General, there is such a saying in Russia. You said that you would like for NATO and Russia to cooperate. But in Russia there is a saying: “Desire is an optional thing. Desire is a harmless thing. ” In fact, we see how mine brings the military to the border with Ukraine, but at the same time both you and NATO begin to accumulate military forces. US send 150 tanks here. You are going to deploy additional bases, additional forces, and therefore I will repeat the question of my colleague. Is it forehead to forehead?
J. Stoltenberg The steps of NATO are simply a response to Russia's actions. And our actions are, firstly, purely defensive in nature, and secondly, we strictly fulfill our international obligations and act in accordance with international law. The difference is that Russia has violated international law: used force to violate the border, territorial integrity, the principle of sovereignty of a sovereign country. And, in fact, a big difference between respect for international law, respect for national borders and, conversely, encroachment. We just respect the national borders and the sovereignty of other countries. Russia is not. Here, actually, this problem. And I sincerely regret this, because it postpones the possibility of constructive close cooperation, creates unfavorable conditions, and we are interested in cooperation with Russia, but for this to become a reality, Russia must behave somehow differently.
A.Venedictov― If a lot of free weapons, it will definitely shoot. Is NATO ready for a military confrontation with Russia?
J. Stoltenberg ― NATO absolutely does not want a cold war or a clash. We are interested in cooperation. At the same time, NATO is ready to defend all allies against any threat. We, in fact, have a defense alliance and our task is to protect all members of this alliance.
A.Venediktov органи You organize a rapid reaction force called the "Spearhead". Where is the spear directed to Mr. Putin?
J. Stoltenberg It is not that it was specifically directed at anyone. These forces allow us to respond to threats regardless of their source. And, as we see, we live in a world that is far from being so stable, far from being as safe as it was before, therefore, in fact, we decided to create these rapid reaction forces. They are not created against anyone. They can be used when necessary to protect allies, regardless of the source of the threat.
A.Venediktov― Mr. Secretary General. I am a historian by education, and I know that both a spear and tanks are an offensive weapon, not a defensive weapon. Once a spear, that is, tanks. How will you target this spear?
J. Stoltenberg ― No, we are not going to direct it to anyone. Just in case of need, we will be able to quickly deploy forces in order to protect one of the allies. We respect the principle of territorial integrity, respect the borders, the sovereignty of all our neighbors. Russia is our biggest neighbor. I believe this is a great country with a great historyand I hope that Russia will be a successful country. If Russia cooperates with us, I am convinced that both Russia and NATO will benefit from this.
A.Venediktov― The last question in this part. Do you think you will be able to convince your allies to increase funding for the creation of this rapid reaction force, to bring all countries to this, all NATO countries?
J. Stoltenberg ― I am sure that we will be able to implement the decisions that were made in September at the summit in Wales and create these “Spear Point” forces. Now we are discussing organizational issues, we have to decide on the composition, on the size of the forces, but this will be later. But I am convinced that we will be able to create these rapid reaction forces.
A. Venediktov I recall that NATO’s Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg and Alexey Venediktov and Lesia Ryabtseva are on the air of Echo of Moscow. Lesya ...
O. Ryabtseva― Recently, the press secretary of the President of the Russian Federation, Dmitry Peskov, said that Russia needed guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO. Well, actually, we flew for this. Could you now give us a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO, or, on the contrary, will it enter?
J. Stoltenberg ― Actually, your question proves how alien you are, you don’t understand the concept of a sovereign country. The final act of Helsinki, which we signed with the Soviet Union and in many other documents signed by Russia and NATO as well as the organization, and individual members, says that any sovereign state can independently decide whether it wants to be a member of one or another an alliance or organization focused on security. And in principle, such a question itself, it seems to be an attempt on the sovereign choice of Ukraine.
Several years ago, Ukraine decided not to join any bloc or military alliance. And I respected this decision. Now there is a debate in Ukraine, there is a proposal to change this decision. If such a decision is made, if they want to join NATO, I will respect their decision, but such a decision must be made in Ukraine. And if such a decision is made, a country that meets the standards, which respects the basic principles of NATO, can in principle become a member of NATO. But this decision must be made by the country itself. More than one third non-NATO country cannot count on the right of veto or in any way influence the decision of a sovereign country such as Ukraine. This is, in fact, the principle of the sovereign right to make decisions.
O. Ryabtseva― Mr. Secretary General, forgive me for God's sake, you could not explain to me again. That is, now there is no talk about Ukraine joining NATO?
J. Stoltenberg A few years ago, Ukraine decided that it would not seek to join NATO. I respect this decision of Ukraine. Then the new government announced that it plans to hold a referendum on joining NATO. Well what can I say? At first such referendum should take place. I do not know when. If, after years, such a referendum takes place, then let the citizens of Ukraine decide. If the majority of residents decide not to change the policy and not to apply for NATO membership, then the question is removed. But if the majority of citizens in the referendum, which will be organized by the government, will vote for membership, then indeed such a question will arise. Well, then it will be necessary to look further whether Ukraine meets our standards, whether it observes all the principles of democracy, freedom, and if it can theoretically become a member of NATO. But this is a question for us of the following discussion, provided that they really want to join NATO.
A.Venedictov ― Each answer to you raises two questions. I will try to formulate and clarify. First, I correctly understand that NATO could never give and did not guarantee that a country would join NATO and that NATO would not expand further?
J. Stoltenberg Россия Russia and all allies, NATO members have signed, have repeatedly signed international agreements, which stated that free, independent countries make decisions about what security mechanisms they will, respectively, take for themselves. I respect this decision. And all the countries that have become members of NATO joined NATO of their own accord, this is their decision, a voluntary decision, that is, they wanted to join NATO and 28 independent democratic countries, through an independent democratic process they decided that they want to join the alliance. They can leave if they want. We do not force anyone to remain in the alliance. But if they do not want to leave, please, if these are democratic countries that comply with the standards and principles of the alliance, of course.
A.Venedictov второй And the second question. Our President Vladimir Putin says that he sees a threat in the expansion of NATO for Russia; that Russia is gradually surrounded by NATO bases, which are increasing their military contingents along the borders of Russia. The president says: "Look where our bases are and where their bases are." What would you say to President Putin, if you communicate through the press?
J.Stoltenberg― NATO Defense Alliance. We defend our alliance members and the expansion of NATO is the result of free, independent decisions that free, independent countries make. And, it seems to me, if someone tries to limit their right, it is an attempt to limit their freedom and independence. Secondly, I am from Norway. Our country has been a member of NATO since its inception in 45. All these years we have been neighbors - first with the Soviet Union, now with Russia - we have always had very good cooperation with Russia both on the sea and on land borders. We cooperate with Russia on a wide range of issues: energy, fisheries, the environment, at the political level, military cooperation, cooperation in the study of the North.
And this is an example of cooperation of one of the members of the alliance: Norway and Russia. Citizens of both countries benefited from this cooperation, because trade is growing, contacts between people are growing, people are moving from one country to another. NATO, in fact, is based on the principle of one hundred percent respect, mutual respect. We respected Russia, respected its interests in the North, and Russia respected the sovereignty and integrity of Norway. And as long as we respect each other, we can cooperate. We will not be a threat to each other, we are partners, we are neighbors. But if this fundamental principle of mutual respect is violated, if the boundaries change, force is used, then something completely different begins, and equally unpleasant for us and for Russia. I sincerely regret it.
A. Venediktov ― And in this regard, President Putin just says that the encirclement of Russia with bases, NATO military bases is disrespect.
J. Stoltenberg― Firstly, not all NATO countries have military bases. Secondly, indeed, the military presence is increasing, because Russia is using aggressive military force in Ukraine in the first place, changing the boundaries of an independent sovereign state. And thirdly, such a decision is always taken by free, independent countries through the democratic decision-making process, that is, if people want to join the defense alliance, I do not think that I or the Moscow political leadership can restrict this right. Such decisions of countries, residents of different countries must be respected. They join NATO voluntarily.
A. Venediktov― In this connection, you still see that escalation will continue now, because the Minsk agreements are not being implemented - both sides admit it - military escalation, military buildup in Europe on both sides of Ukraine’s border?
J. Stoltenberg ― I very much hope that the Minsk agreements will be implemented. I very much hope that we will be able to agree on peaceful solutions, find a way out of the conflict in Ukraine, because there is no and cannot be a military solution to the Ukrainian conflict, there is no alternative, that is why it is so important that the Minsk agreements are implemented, that the cease-fire principle is implemented, Russia withdrew its troops from Ukraine and respected the integrity of this country.
A.Venedictov President says: "There is no Russian wax in Ukraine." Do you have proof? Russian listeners do not know about it. It's all rumored, no?
Y.Stoltenberg― First, we were told that in the Crimea, at first there were no Russian soldiers. Then Russia recognized that there were Russian soldiers in the Crimea. Then we began to say that in the east of Ukraine there are no Russian soldiers. But according to our intelligence, they are there, Russian forces are in Ukraine. And from open sources we get the same information from journalists who work in the region, from the OSCE. Observers who are stationed both at the border and in the region, they report on the movement of troops, equipment and tanks. We have information that there are air defense systems there. Where, except from Russia, can they get such military equipment? Moreover, various non-governmental organizations report burials of Russian soldiers who died there; we receive similar information from social media. Actually, Russian journalists should probably interview the families of the victims, the families of the soldiers who died in Ukraine, so I think if we summarize the data we receive from the intelligence services, NGOs, from the media - the data on the burial of Russian soldiers who died in Ukraine - in fact, all this together allows us to form such an opinion that there are Russian troops in Ukraine, and this opinion is shared not only by me, but also by the 28 members of the alliance. They also completely assess the situation in the east of Ukraine.
A. Venediktov ― Since we started talking about weapons - is there an understanding and a consolidated position of NATO on the French setting of Mistral in Russia?
J. Stoltenberg ― The issue of the supply of military equipment is not being discussed at NATO. Such decisions are made by all allies separately. NATO does not have its own military equipment, and individual members of the alliance decide whether to sell or not to sell this or that equipment, so I will leave this question to the discretion of the French government.
A. Venediktov ― That is, NATO did not make a decision on the embargo of arms supplies to Russia?
J. Stoltenberg No, this decision was not taken by NATO. But there are economic sanctions that have been imposed by the EU, the US and other countries. And all the members of the alliance, one way or another, have joined this sanction, perhaps not through NATO - through the EU and so on. Speaking of economic sanctions, there are provisions that limit the sale of military equipment.
A. Venediktov― Mr. Secretary General, you were the Prime Minister of Norway. I have a wonderful photo, Lesya, where Mr. Prime Minister is smiling with Mr. Prime Minister Putin. They look at each other affectionately, shake hands and now ...
O. Ryabtsev: Mr Secretary General, are you ready to meet with Vladimir Putin now?
J. Stoltenberg ― First of all, I want to say that for many years in various posts in the government of Norway as a minister, as a prime minister I built good working relations with very different politicians, Russian politicians, with Mr Putin and when he was Prime Minister and when he was president. It was a good manifestation of many years of cooperation between Russia and Norway, based precisely on mutual respect. It seems to me that it is important not to close the channel for political dialogue. NATO decided to suspend tactical cooperation, but we decided to leave the channel for political dialogue. Some leaders of the alliance members have already met with President Putin at various events in Brisbane, in particular, just a few days ago. It is possible that I will meet with him, there is simply no specific agreement on a date yet. We will return somehow to this question.
A.Venediktov― And why there is no agreement on the date when the escalation increases? Already it's time to meet.
J. Stoltenberg ― I think that it will be necessary, of course, to return to the question of a meeting. I want to say that NATO has decided to leave the channels of political dialogue open, and various leaders of the countries of the alliance have already met with the political leadership of Russia on several occasions. As for the meeting between me and the members of the political leadership of Russia, including President Putin, we can return to this later.
A.Venediktov― Later - when? When will the conflict begin?
J.Stoltenberg― I can’t give a date or a time limit, I’m just saying that it’s been decided not to close the channel for political dialogue. Political dialogue is conducted at different levels between NATO, various officials, and members of the alliance meet with Russian officials, with the political leadership of Russia in various formats. And, of course, we can consider the issue of a meeting between me and the political leadership of Russia.
A.Venediktov― Last question, Mr. Secretary General. There is such a wonderful Polish satirist Jerzy Lec, he was a humorist, a satirist, and he has the phrase: “When we thought we were at the bottom, we knocked from the bottom”. Question: We are at the freezing point of the relationship between Russia and NATO, are we at the very bottom or is there something else to drown in?
J. Stoltenberg It seems to me that it would be wrong if I began to discuss this topic. I would say this: I think we can fully restore the relations of cooperation and partnership with Russia, we are striving for this. But the guarantee of this would be mutual respect, respect for the principles of international law, borders, and the integrity of independent countries. If our cooperation will be based on these fundamental principles of mutual respect, respect for the independence of all countries, I am convinced that we can build our cooperation. I have repeatedly been to Russia. It seems to me that this is a beautiful country, wonderful people live in it. A great country more than that, with a great history that has achieved a great deal. I am convinced that together we can achieve even more - if we cooperate with you. And if Russia continues to move along this path, it will be more isolated.
A. Venediktov― Pessimist.
J. Stoltenberg No, I'm just an optimist.
O. Ryabtseva― Olesya Ryabtseva and Alexey Venediktov, and we were visiting the NATO Secretary General, Jena Stoltenberg. Thank you bye!
J. Stoltenberg ― Thank you.
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