Military Review

The best protection. Overview of recent advances in active protection systems

153
The best protection. Overview of recent advances in active protection systems

KAZ Trophy from Rafael was tested in battle on the Israeli tanks Merkava


Although complexes (systems) of active protection are possible today are not a fully mature solution, but they are one of the ways to ensure the safety of personnel in combat operations. We will review the latest technological advances in this market and products that are currently defining trends.

The active defense complexes (KAZ) are designed to protect armored vehicles from anti-tank guided munitions and short-range missiles by destroying the projectile before it hits the vehicle.

Given all the requirements, it is incredibly difficult to develop a completely perfect KAZ. Sensors must determine the launch, assess whether the ammunition hits the vehicle, classify it and launch the interceptor in a very short period of time, often less than a second. However, KAZ is a better protection compared to passive systems, for example, false targets, or even simple addition of armor to a car.

Attempts to develop a KAZ have been going on for quite a long time. In earlier works, the Russian system Drozd and the German AWiSS system from Diehl used defensive charges with ready-made attack elements to neutralize the attacking threats. The Israeli company Rafael, however, has developed an alternative - a family of systems that fire at the target with projectile charges in a narrow sector.

Leader

According to the representative of the company Rafael, the Trophy system is the only technologically mature KAZ, which was installed on the Merkava Mk 4 tanks and was used in the operations of the Israeli army.

Over the past few years there have been attempts to develop other systems, but they never went into the series. In 2005, KAZ Close-in Countermeasures from BAE reached the level of technological readiness of 6 (experimental sample) and neutralized the grenade from the RPG-7, but it was not manufactured from 2009 of the year. Also did not go into production complex AWiSS from Diehl. Saab tested its Land Electronic Defense System’s ground-based electronic defense system on a Mowag machine in 2007. Later it was installed on the Piranha 8x8, but today there is no information about its use.

In France, the companies TDA and Thales developed KAZ SHARK, and although it reached the level of technological readiness of 8 in 2008 (tests of prototypes) and there were plans to integrate this system into the armored personnel carrier VAB 4x4 and other large vehicles, but again at the moment there is no no information. Despite the cooperation with South Korea, the Arena complex, developed by the Russian company KBM, is still in development.

Airbus Defense and Space received a contract for its Multi-functional Self-Protection System (MUSS) for its installation on the new Puma BMPs of the German army, but it does not yet have an active component (only false targets), although there are plans to developing it.

The Tactical RPG Airbag Protection System from the American company Textron, which uses air bags to neutralize the flying grenades, was funded and tested in 2005-2009 years; but since then all activity has actually been curtailed and its production has not begun. A representative of General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems regarding KAZ ShotScreen said that "at present we are not working on it due to the lack of need on the part of the American army."


In the KAZ Trophy from Rafael, so-called "energy blades" are used to protect against attacking ammunition.

Increased demands

However, Rafael believes that despite the lack of interest, the need for a KAZ will increase due to the spread of more advanced anti-tank guided munitions, RPGs and other armor-piercing missiles. In addition, in the future, the threat will come from tandem warheads, as well as unitary combat units like the RPG-7.

“You can buy RPG-7 for 80 dollars somewhere on the outskirts of Pakistan, everyone is well aware of these places,” a company spokesman said. - If you look at what is happening in Africa, then you will see tandem combat units, recoilless rifles there. Unitary warheads are still widely used there as well. ”

He noted that the proliferation of such weapons is increasing to dangerous levels and that during the French military operation Serval in Mali and in the UN mission of MINUSMA, the troops encountered Sagem missiles.

“It's like drugs. Nobody knows how Cornet rockets get from Libya to Syria, or Chinese HJ-8 rockets get to Syria, all of this is transported by sophisticated smuggling methods. Surprisingly, these guys gain experience, and they use it not just against the troops of Assad, but also any other guys that they don’t like. ”

According to the representative of the company Rafael, KAZ Trophy is intended rather for the following conflicts, and not for participation in the last war. This means creating ways to combat “complex threats”, for example, tandem warheads, rather than unitary combat units, on which other companies are still focused.

The Trophy Heavy Vehicle (HV) system developed for the Israeli army uses a countermeasure that can destroy the attacking ammunition without undermining it.

"We are talking about very small non-aerodynamic components in very limited quantities, which are released in a very focused form in the direction of a particular point in the warhead in order to destroy the threat without initiating it," the official said.

Since no explosives are used in the system, it becomes safer at close range. The machine itself is not subject to shock and damage, in addition, indirect damage to dismounted infantry and civilians is minimal. It is particularly suitable for fighting in urban space.

More benefits

KAZ Trophy has already been installed and deployed as part of an entire brigade of the Israeli army and the army continues to purchase this system. At the moment during the fighting there were several cases when the complex saved the lives of soldiers. Rafael does not want to stand still, as an obvious market leader she wants to develop the system further.

“We need to transfer KAZ to the next level right now, everyone is talking about interesting video shots of explosions and whether KAZ can hit something,” said the representative, adding that it was just a basic level that other companies are trying to achieve in non-combat space. “What we are doing now is linking the Trophy with a battle management system (CICS). This allows you to make a big step forward. ”

On the battlefield in armored vehicles, the crews often do not see the threat posed by enemy anti-tank groups. Therefore, if the KAZ Trophy automatically connects to the CICS, it can locate the shooter.

"The factor that drastically changes the rules of the game is that if the entire military formation is tied into a network, then all the machines can see each other and in the event of an attack on one machine by the anti-tank group, the whole unit can see the exact location of the shooter and aim immediately, turn the weapon and neutralize the shooter, ”he said.

Changing the defensive concept of KAZ to offensive will improve the defense, because if all the anti-tank groups know that they can be destroyed by return fire within a few seconds, they will be much more restrained.

Source selection

General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS) in 2012 opened an international competition to test the performance of KAZ on their vehicles and selected LAV-III for testing. This platform was chosen due to the fact that the integration of KAZ is very difficult here because of potential interference with the 25-mm gun.

The process for selecting a contractor for a tender developed by GDLS was identical to the process used by the US government to speed up the development process if a decision is made to start a formal program. In 2012, this process, led by GDLS, took six months and, ultimately, in August, Rafael was selected to integrate the KAZ Trophy into the LAV-III car.

“The whole integration of mechanics, the development was carried out by GDLS - Canada, it took less than six months,” said a spokesman for Rafael. “In less than six months, we prepared for the full testing program on the new platform. Comprehensive system tests were conducted in the summer and fall of 2013, and in October 2013, we successfully completed this program.

“Under this program, GDLS showed its customers that KAZ, integrated on its platform, can be connected to the CICS. It was a new CUIS and Rafael knew nothing about her; and reintegration was successful in less than six months.

“So, the possibility of connection with the CICS was demonstrated, then the defeat of unitary warheads at short range, tandem threats, ATGM was demonstrated. Scenarios were shown in motion, scenarios of multiple attacks, successive attacks (several on one side) from different angles. The tests were carried out not only to show the "spectacular" pictures of the explosions, but also to check other elements - indirect damage, safety, residual penetration, impact, and so on. "


The roof-mounted KAZ Trophy LV from Rafael uses radar to detect targets.




The Rafael Trophy LV option provides lightweight vehicle protection

Light touch

In addition to integration with the CICS, the next step for KAZ was the development of solutions for light tactical vehicles and armored personnel carriers. Lighter vehicles are generally not subject to the same threats as heavy armored vehicles, such as MBT and BMP, are exposed. Consequently, a KAZ “younger brother” can be established in terms of mass, cost, and performance.

As a result of this experience, Rafael developed the KAZ Trophy HV version for light vehicles, designated Trophy Light Tactical Vehicles (LV).

“We immediately set a goal - to develop a system that should protect against relevant threats - the entire RPG family. This is not only unitary warheads, the main goal is the fight against tandem warheads. The system should be relevant for urban melee scenarios and low intensity conflicts. It should be easy to integrate into various platforms, and of course inexpensive. ”

Rafael refined this technology and in December 2013 of the year completed a set of tests of a single system installed on the trunk on the roof of a car. The system shoots down the so-called "energy blade", affecting the ammunition flying up.

“The energy blade is a kind of material produced at high speed due to the minimum amount of explosive that allows you to cut the threat without initiating it,” the company representative continued.

A total of seven companies participated in tests conducted by the Ministry of Defense in 2011, and Rafael was one of them. However, the report to the Congress states that the KAZ technology is not yet mature enough from a technological point of view, despite all the features demonstrated by Trophy.

One of the claimants to these tests was Artis with its Iron Curtain system. A company representative said that the developer showed himself very well in these tests and was selected to be installed on a tactical vehicle. “Again, based on convincing test results, Artis with its KAZ was chosen by BAE for installation on the new Ground Combat Vehicle [GCV].”

Like the Trophy LV system, the KAZ Iron Curtain is mounted on the roof. It uses radar to detect threats and optical sensors that classify and select the target meeting point. Then attacking elements are shot from the container in order to neutralize the attacking threat.

Artis, together with DARPA, is also continuing to develop its Iron Curtain complex so that it can be installed on any machine. A company representative also said that during the field tests in 2012 and 2013, the complex was installed on the body of the machine, but did not voice the results of these tests. The Iron Curtain was also proposed as a KAZ for the T-90 tanks of the Indian Army.


The Iron curtain complex from Artis incorporates optical sensors that classify and select a target point, and containers containing attack elements that are manufactured to destroy the flying ammunition.

Modular approach

Another American program that is gaining momentum, and may well reach production, is conducted by the TARDEC Armored Research Center, which has specifically created in its structure a department for modular KAZ.

Raytheon worked in its time on the KAZ QuickKill for the promising GCV, but since the topic was canceled at the beginning of 2014, it has been transformed into a technology program under the direction of TARDEC.

The system consists of a radar detection and tracking system, a fire control system for assessing, tracking and decision-making, and direct defeat measures. QuickKill is based on a multifunctional radar with an active electron-scanning antenna array, which has already reached the level of factory tests and which was originally developed for a missile and mortar attack warning system on advanced bases. The countermeasure component is a vertical launch system.

According to Raytheon, the company is working with the US Army to meet the requirements for an active protection complex, “in the current budgetary framework.” A company representative spoke about recent changes in KAZ requirements. “The need to improve survivability and mobility while increasing flexibility regarding vehicle type and operational tasks led us to change the development model. The integrated solution has given way to a system consisting of modular components that allow for centralized situational awareness and obtain various options for protecting the vehicle. ”

Materials used:
www.shephardmedia.com
www.rafael.co.il
en.wikipedia.org
www.thalesgroup.com
www.generaldynamics.com
www.artisllc.com
www.raytheon.com
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  1. bootlegger
    bootlegger 25 November 2014 08: 42
    +1
    And again, we are talking about relative technical maturity. This system is probably useless against sub-caliber ammunition and how tank protection is not effective.
    BPS cannot be stopped or cut with any blades. A proportionate energy impact is needed.
    1. Daniel
      Daniel 25 November 2014 09: 23
      +8
      Quote: bootlegger
      And again, we are talking about relative technical maturity.

      These systems have proven effective in combat environment and have saved more than one soldier's life.
      Quote: bootlegger
      This system is probably useless against sub-caliber ammunition

      IMI Iron Fist (Israel)
      The Iron Fist effectively protects against the full spectrum of Anti-Tank (AT) threats including AT Rockets fired at short range, in open area or urban environment, AT Guided Missiles, High Explosive AT and Kinetic energy rounds.

      Quote: bootlegger
      Do not stop or cut the BTS with any blades.


      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 25 November 2014 09: 59
        +3
        Quote: Daniel
        These systems have proven effective in combat situations.

        When?

        At the moment, KAZ are an expensive option for lattice screens. Performing the same functions with the same efficiency.
        1. Daniel
          Daniel 25 November 2014 11: 00
          +4
          Quote: Spade
          When?

          From 1 March to 2011 to this day.
          The Israel Defense Forces reports on the first successful application of the Meil ​​Ruach (Windbreaker) active tank protection system: Palestinian terrorists fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli tank east of Khan Younis, which was successfully defused.
          http://txt.newsru.co.il/arch/mideast/01mar2011/meil502.html

          20.03.2011/4/XNUMX As reported by the Kol Yisrael radio station, Palestinian militants attempted to hit a Merkava-XNUMX tank near the Al-Bureij refugee camp, east of Gaza. The Meil ​​Ruach system destroyed the missile on approach.
          http://txt.newsru.co.il/mideast/20mar2011/tank8004.html

          Last operation in Gaza
          On Wednesday, July 30, the Vetrovka (Meil Ruach) active defense system installed on a tank shot down an anti-tank missile launched by terrorists at the car. According to the military, we are talking about 16 cases of using the "Windbreaker" system to repel attacks on tanks operating in the Gaza Strip.
          http://newsru.co.il/arch/mideast/30jul2014/vetrovka_711.html

          Hamas fired from several tens to hundreds of anti-tank missiles of various types. None of them were able to break through the Merkava tank protection system. Http://www.mignews.co.il/news/arabisrael/world/110814_173216_0184


          8.html

          Dozens of our tanks were subject to thousands of hits, and the system worked flawlessly. None of the tanks were injured, and there were no false positives.
          http://vpk.name/news/119654_ogromnyii_interes_k_kaz_trofi.html

          And not a single tank destroyed.


          Quote: Spade
          At the moment, KAZ are dear option of lattice screens.

          Miser pays twice.

          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 November 2014 11: 30
            +8
            Quote: Daniel
            From 1 March to 2011 to this day.

            Are you sure? And with what army did you manage to conquer Israel during this time?

            You should understand a simple thing: there is a huge difference between counter-guerrilla actions and the struggle against army units.

            What happens to the much-vaunted Trophy when attacking a platoon stronghold? That's right, after passing through several lines of the NZO or PZO by the time the enemy reaches the range of grenade launchers, the system will be inoperative.

            Because bootlegger is absolutely right, at the moment there are no KAZs in the world that can work effectively in real combat.
            1. Daniel
              Daniel 25 November 2014 12: 01
              +5
              there is a huge difference between counter-guerrilla actions and the struggle against army units.

              I partly agree, but the reality is that nowadays it is more often than not to deal with "partisan" groups.
              What happens to the much-vaunted Trophy when attacking a platoon stronghold? That's right, after passing through several lines of the NZO or PZO by the time the enemy reaches the range of grenade launchers, the system will be inoperative.

              Everything you said does not eliminate the need for such systems.
              Yes, KAZ, of course, is not a panacea for all diseases, but it significantly increases the chances of survival for the crew of a single combat vehicle. It is necessary to strive to minimize losses in personnel, the principle of "women isho narazhayut" no longer works.

              KAZ developers, of course, have done a great job, but they still have where to go. For example, nowhere did I find mention of the struggle with such toys.

              BLU-108 / B, works like this
            2. Professor
              Professor 25 November 2014 12: 58
              +2
              Quote: Spade
              Are you sure? And with what army did you manage to conquer Israel during this time?

              I absolutely agree with you. All these KAZs are worthless when using nuclear weapons. It sucks. laughing

              PS
              The mothers of the soldiers who died in Chechnya do not care what they called where they died, the war, or something else?
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 14: 09
                +5
                Quote: Professor
                I absolutely agree with you. All these KAZs are worthless when using nuclear weapons. It sucks.

                Sorry, but the artillery battery and nuclear weapons are a bit different, both in terms of prevalence and the threshold for starting use, aren't they?
                1. Professor
                  Professor 25 November 2014 17: 57
                  +5
                  Quote: Spade
                  Sorry, but the artillery battery and nuclear weapons are a bit different, both in terms of prevalence and the threshold for starting use, aren't they?

                  I'm not sorry. Since we decided about a full-scale war, let’s do it with tactical nuclear weapons, otherwise why should I tell you about aviation, UAVs, counter-battery nonsense. In short, this KAZ sucks. That thrush was cool. And even cooler than the grilles on the tank. By the way, how do gratings help from Javelin? He’s hitting the roof ...
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 18: 09
                    +3
                    Quote: Professor
                    I'm not sorry. Now that we have decided about a full-scale war, let’s go with tactical nuclear weapons

                    Israel begins a war with Egypt. Does Egypt have tactical nuclear weapons? No. Does Egypt have artillery? Yes, 4480 trunks. What will happen if Egypt uses these barrels against Israeli armored vehicles equipped with KAZ? That's right, KAZ can be written off.

                    By the way, will the Trophy from the Javelins and Helfires help? From attacking the target on the flyover of TOU-2?
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 25 November 2014 18: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Spade
                      Israel begins a war with Egypt. Does Egypt have tactical nuclear weapons? No. Does Egypt have artillery? Yes, 4480 trunks. What will happen if Egypt uses these barrels against Israeli armored vehicles equipped with KAZ? That's right, KAZ can be written off.

                      Great example. The war with Egypt. It has already been at least 4 times and all times full-blown. But this is bad luck, however, the Egyptian artillery did not bring much damage to Israeli armored vehicles, but something else. By the way, do you know why?
                      So KAZ will very much help in the war with Egypt when Israel changes its tradition and treacherously finally attacks Egypt.
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 25 November 2014 18: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        But this is bad luck, Egyptian artillery did not bring much damage to Israeli armored vehicles,

                        It will not cause damage to armored vehicles. With her high-explosive fragmentation ammunition, she will complicate the actions of the infantry and destroy all that heaped nonsense that Israel has recently been fond of. Trophy elements, combat modules, and everything else that does not have anti-fragmentation armor.
                      2. Professor
                        Professor 26 November 2014 08: 00
                        -1
                        Quote: Spade
                        It will not cause damage to armored vehicles. With her high-explosive fragmentation ammunition, she will complicate the actions of the infantry and destroy all that heaped nonsense that Israel has recently been fond of. Trophy elements, combat modules, and everything else that does not have anti-fragmentation armor.

                        The wars with Egypt showed that Egyptian artillery is not capable of complicating the actions of the infantry and destroying all that tricked nonsense that Israel has recently been fond of. Guess why? Passwords - Hale Avir.
                      3. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh 26 November 2014 09: 52
                        +3
                        It's funny to see how much "fancy stuff"
                        on the roof of the tower T-90 ... There is no free centimeter.
                        Why all this? belay
                    2. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 25 November 2014 18: 27
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      But this is bad luck, Egyptian artillery did not bring much damage to Israeli armored vehicles,

                      It will not cause damage to armored vehicles. With her high-explosive fragmentation ammunition, she will complicate the actions of the infantry and destroy all that heaped nonsense that Israel has recently been fond of. Trophy elements, combat modules, and everything else that does not have anti-fragmentation armor.
                    3. Alexey M
                      Alexey M 25 November 2014 19: 28
                      0
                      So KAZ will very much help in the war with Egypt when Israel changes its tradition and treacherously finally attacks Egypt.
                      When this happens, you can forget about the state of Israel.
                      Then all Muslims will be honored to kill a Jew, no matter what and where. Sorry for being rude, but such is the reality. And KAZ does not save a mother and a child who knocked down a bus stop at a bus stop, and does not save an ax from the synagogue, and from explosives in a car .
                      I will end with the words of the cat Leopold "Guys, let's live together"
                      Py.Sy.Vasha Merkava is the best tank for operations where you live. And what you think about your soldiers is also laudable, but they will die until there is peace in the region.
                    4. Professor
                      Professor 25 November 2014 20: 28
                      +3
                      Quote: Alexey M
                      When this happens, you can forget about the state of Israel.

                      It’s true, because Israel never attacked its neighbors first, and if it attacks, it will no longer be Israel.

                      Quote: Alexey M
                      Then all Muslims will be honored to kill a Jew

                      And now they just kiss the Jews in a hickey, and everyone else too.
                    5. Pimply
                      Pimply 25 November 2014 20: 39
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexey M
                      Then all Muslims will be honored to kill a Jew, no matter what and where. Sorry for the rudeness, but this is the reality.


                      Wait a moment. That is, in your opinion, before that the situation was somehow different and didn’t dream of killing? And the fact that the weapons of the Arabs not so long ago were much better and there were more of them - doesn’t play a role either?
          2. avdkrd
            avdkrd 26 November 2014 00: 35
            +2
            Quote: Professor
            The mothers of the soldiers who died in Chechnya do not care what they called where they died, the war, or something else?

            The commanders died in Chechnya due to tactical and strategic mistakes, or rather, not due to mistakes, but to complete doboeism. I'm talking about the loss of tanks during the storming of Grozny and in general in the first company. It is unlikely that any existing defense will work for a shot from a 30 meter distance. Jews lose tanks the same way, but they definitely competently approach cover, reconnaissance and preliminary fire suppression of identified threats.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 25 November 2014 13: 41
          +7
          Quote: Spade

          Are you sure? And with what army did you manage to conquer Israel during this time?

          Combat use does not mean war with the army. For example, in Chechnya, not the army fought against Russian troops both times. And nevertheless, that the First, that the Second Chechen is a war. Afghanistan is also a war with militant groups. Also a war.
          Syria, Iraq and a bunch of other recent warfare - armies? Not. But war nonetheless
          Quote: Spade
          You should understand a simple thing: there is a huge difference between counter-guerrilla actions and the struggle against army units.

          Right. But sometimes the difference between the concepts is almost obliterated, as recently the armament of some terrorist groups and their tactics are in no way inferior to the armaments and tactics of army units, and often - army special forces.


          Quote: Spade
          What happens to the much-vaunted Trophy when attacking a platoon stronghold? That's right, after passing through several lines of the NZO or PZO by the time the enemy reaches the range of grenade launchers, the system will be inoperative.

          Are we starting to consider the situation when we have a lone tank rushing to a platoon stronghold? With a shovel, I'm sorry, but somehow you exaggerate you start the situation, I did not expect this from you.
          No panacea, and you know it perfectly. Trophy is only one of the tank's defense systems, and the tank is only part of a single cohesive army mechanism.

          Quote: Spade
          Because bootlegger is absolutely right, at the moment there are no KAZs in the world that can work effectively in real combat.

          Then it is necessary to cancel the armor according to his thoughts. After all, something pierces her
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 November 2014 14: 13
            0
            In short, the principle is simple: "since Trophy is ineffective in classic combat operations, but you need to buy it, we take it for the postulate that we will not fight with normal armies"

            The principle is clear. But for us it is unacceptable.
            1. Rex
              Rex 25 November 2014 21: 59
              +4
              KAZ should not be underestimated. Sooner or later, they will become a mass phenomenon, like DZ. And this is not the most expensive way to increase the protection of obsolete cars, including light ones.
              There are many vulnerabilities on the BBM, including the gun barrel.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 02
                -2
                Well, no, I think KAZ is a very necessary thing. But not in the "counter-partisan" version that Israel did.
            2. Pimply
              Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 48
              +4
              Quote: Spade
              In short, the principle is simple: "since Trophy is ineffective in classic combat operations, but you need to buy it, we take it for the postulate that we will not fight with normal armies"

              Classic fighting has long ceased to be classic. They are, but their number has sharply decreased recently. And the role of anti-tank systems and their mobile calculations has increased dramatically.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 52
                0
                Quote: Pimply
                Classic fighting has long ceased to be classic.

                And artillery stopped using high-explosive shells ...
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 26 November 2014 00: 41
                  +1
                  Quote: Spade
                  And artillery stopped using high-explosive shells ...

                  Not. It’s just that the probability of destruction of artillery by the modern army with the help of UAVs and the delivery of attacks on tank groups by this artillery is minimized, do not you?
              2. Sandov
                Sandov 25 November 2014 23: 54
                +1
                Quote: Pimply
                Classic fighting has long ceased to be classic.

                You are right, times have changed, all recent conflicts speak about this. You need to learn to fight differently and not put it off for later.
            3. vjhbc
              vjhbc 26 November 2014 03: 52
              0
              I’ll answer you so maybe it’s not acceptable for you, but for me it’s poorer. who shoots at our tank or is it an American soldier from abrams or bandera from javelin or muslim from rpg the main thing is for the crew to survive and bang them, and how much it costs will you tell the mothers of the burned boys the tanks you spared
              Quote: Spade
              In short, the principle is simple: "since Trophy is ineffective in classic combat operations, but you need to buy it, we take it for the postulate that we will not fight with normal armies"

              The principle is clear. But for us it is unacceptable.
        3. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 26 November 2014 09: 41
          +1
          Who cares if an action movie is sitting in an ambush in a turban with an ATGM
          or a soldier in a helmet and in uniform with the same ATGM?

          Does ATGM work differently from this? smile

          Those who failed to create a KAZ weight the armored vehicles with "bed
          gratings "... smile
          1. Rex
            Rex 26 November 2014 10: 32
            +2
            All have no money. Budgets have been cracking at the seams for a long time and there is no end in sight.
            Nobody is going to fight seriously, and therefore spend a few $ billion.
            For Israel, tanks in battle, unfortunately, are commonplace. It makes sense to buy
    2. Professor
      Professor 25 November 2014 12: 55
      +2
      Quote: Spade
      At the moment, KAZ are an expensive option for lattice screens. Performing the same functions with the same efficiency.

      Here from this place please for more details. tell us pliz how effective your grating is, say against a new TOU with an impact core or my favorite Beal2. I beg you, do not answer the question with a question. love
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 25 November 2014 14: 10
        0
        Quote: Professor
        Here from this place please for more details. tell us pliz how effective your grid is, let's say against the new TOU with an impact core or my favorite Beal2

        And how many of them "Trophy" shot down, do not remind?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 November 2014 14: 13
          +1
          Quote: Spade
          And how many of them "Trophy" shot down, do not remind?

          At least one Cornet-E has been shot down at the moment.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 November 2014 14: 15
            +4
            It does not hit tanks from above on the span.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 48
              +2
              Quote: Spade
              It does not hit tanks from above on the span.

              And?
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 23: 02
                0
                And here we are talking about the analogs of "BILL", "Javelin" or "Helfair"

                Correctly installed grill made of the right materials will calmly protect you from "Cornet". It is intended precisely for the destruction of the cumulative funnel, and not in order to cause a premature detonation. so the tandem won't really hurt her.
            2. Professor
              Professor 26 November 2014 08: 03
              0
              Quote: Spade
              It does not hit tanks from above on the span.

              You forgot to write at what distance the span passes. A meter and a half above the tank (upload video?), KAZ intercepts them on approach. Look at the Raphael website.

              PS
              How can the grill help with such an ammunition with an impact core, and indeed how does it cover the roof of the tank, say from the Spear?
        2. Professor
          Professor 25 November 2014 17: 52
          0
          Quote: Spade
          And how many of them "Trophy" shot down, do not remind?

          Quote: Professor
          I beg you, do not answer the question with a question.

          I repeat the question: tell us pliz how effective your grid is, let's say against the new TOU with an impact core or my favorite Beal2.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 November 2014 18: 12
            0
            So how many missiles have Trophy destroyed that cannot be stopped by the lattice screens? That's right, not a single one. So what exactly are your questions?
            1. Professor
              Professor 25 November 2014 18: 46
              0
              Quote: Spade
              So how many missiles have Trophy destroyed that cannot be stopped by the lattice screens? That's right, not a single one. So what exactly are your questions?

              I had a request not to answer a question with a question, but I see it not in your power. So again (third time) my question is:
              tell us pliz how effective your grid is, let's say against the new TOU with an impact core or my favorite Beal2. An elementary question. Please answer it, and afterwards we’ll talk about the lattices praised by you and ATGMs of the third generation, beating (well, they bastards) not in the forehead, but in the roof.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 18: 59
                +2
                And the grille cannot protect against a ballistic missile ...

                Prove that, unlike the grating, the Trophy is capable of intercepting missiles such as Bill, Javelin or Helfair

                And now you have the argument that the AK-74 assault rifle cannot be attributed to the same class as the M-16, because they cannot knock out a tank.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 25 November 2014 20: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Spade
                  And the grille cannot protect against a ballistic missile ...

                  Has anyone already started using ballistic missiles on tanks? Well, I say nuclear weapons, and you ...

                  Quote: Spade
                  Prove that, unlike the grating, the Trophy is capable of intercepting missiles such as Bill, Javelin or Helfair

                  I can start with the TOU, and after you show how you will intercept it with a grate. Have you agreed? wink And now you have the argument that the AK-74 assault rifle cannot be attributed to the same class as the M-16, because they cannot knock out a tank.
              2. Rex
                Rex 25 November 2014 22: 09
                0
                A Ukrainian movie is walking somewhere in the network - they are trying to invent a new lattice screen. They fired from 3 types (all obsolete).
                There were 2 moments which I did not expect:
                1 shot can "slip" between the stripes (this is how the RPG-18 passed)
                2 RPG-22 managed to break the tip on the grill and left the course (suggested that marriage is possible)

                But the authors do not lose hope
            2. cherina
              cherina 25 November 2014 19: 40
              +1
              Quote: Spade
              So how many missiles have Trophy destroyed that cannot be stopped by the lattice screens? That's right, not a single one. So what exactly are your questions?

              dear, don’t hysteria, go better, drink some water, or you can see the tantrum with your rishotchi, and the kaz stopped exactly as many rockets as once they logically shot at him, two or three times it was so accurate, as the saying goes, the facts speak for themselves
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 20: 58
                +1
                Will I be hysterical? Nobody can prove to me that "Trophy" is a system that is better than a properly installed grid. Which also "stops" everything that this KAZ has intercepted until now. But it is hundreds of times cheaper.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 November 2014 21: 54
                  +3
                  Quote: Spade
                  Will I be hysterical? Nobody can prove to me that "Trophy" is a system that is better than a properly installed grid. Which also "stops" everything that this KAZ has intercepted until now. But it is hundreds of times cheaper.

                  Seriously?
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Seriously?

                    Absolutely. I do not see the need for such an expensive solution. Ordinary show-offs.
                  2. Pimply
                    Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 43
                    +4
                    Quote: Spade
                    Absolutely. I do not see the need for such an expensive solution. Ordinary show-offs.

                    15 interceptions are somehow difficult to call cheap show-offs. Even saving one life is already worth it. Rise in price - somewhere 10 percent of the cost of the tank. That is - about 300 pieces of bucks. And the system is saving lives now, and not for a hypothetical big war. And in parallel - is developing.
                    On lattices there is no clear data on their effectiveness. But according to reports - low. At times lower than Trophy.
                  3. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 23: 04
                    -1
                    Two new Russians meet on Courchevel
                    -Why bought a tie
                    -200 bucks
                    -Well, you are a burdock, I saw the same for 600.
                  4. Pimply
                    Pimply 25 November 2014 23: 46
                    +3
                    Quote: Spade
                    Two new Russians meet on Courchevel
                    -Why bought a tie
                    -200 bucks
                    -Well, you are a burdock, I saw the same for 600.

                    Off topic. You are trying to compare the grilles, the effectiveness of which at the moment is not so high, with a system that, among other things, determines the direction of the launch of ATGMs
              2. Rex
                Rex 25 November 2014 23: 02
                +3
                KAZ in the region of 10% of the tank price - not a lot.
                A Trophy kit costs about 300 SVD
  • Pimply
    Pimply 25 November 2014 13: 32
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    When?

    At the moment, KAZ are an expensive option for lattice screens. Performing the same functions with the same efficiency.

    In Israel, at least 5 times.
    The first combat use was on 1 on March 2011, the second on 20, followed by several more
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 25 November 2014 17: 16
    +1
    Quote: Spade

    When?
    At the moment, KAZ are an expensive option for lattice screens. Performing the same functions with the same efficiency.

    Taken from SHSP. About the last operation of the IDF.

    אתמול (שלישי) בשעות הבוקר התבצע היירוט ה -15 במספר של מערכת "מעיל רוח" בחטיבת השריון 401 מאז החל מבצע "צוק ארןתן" " המערכת, שמטרתה לספק הגנה לטנק מרכבה סימן 4 מפני טילים נגד טנקים, נכנסה לשירות מבצעי בחטיבה שבפיקוד אלוף-משנה סער צור רק לאחהיה ר צור רק לאחהיה היא הצילה עד כה את חייהם של שני מפקדי גדודים בחטיבה, ששהו בטנק שלעברו שוגר טיל, וכן את חייהם של עשרות חיילים וקציני.

    Yesterday, Trophy conducted its 15th interception since the start of the operation in Gaza. Today she has prevented the death of dozens of tankers, including two battalion commanders 401 t / b
    .
  • bootlegger
    bootlegger 25 November 2014 12: 09
    +6
    You want to say that this cracker will stop tungsten scrap flying at a speed of under 2000 msec? You estimate his energy, for starters.
    These fragments will only scratch him. After all, it is designed to pierce a half-meter armor, they will not even greatly affect its trajectory.
    They will certainly destroy the RPG shell and destroy the cumulative charge. And scrap, excuse me, only with scrap. Or something proportionate.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 25 November 2014 13: 31
    +2
    Quote: bootlegger
    This system is probably useless against sub-caliber ammunition and how tank protection is not effective.

    For some reason, the Iron Fist system that is not mentioned here works for the subcaliber. The Americans tested it, the system shot down a shell
    1. bootlegger
      bootlegger 25 November 2014 14: 27
      0
      Quote: Pimply
      For some reason, the Iron Fist system that is not mentioned here works for the subcaliber. The Americans tested it, the system shot down a shell

      Counteraction from the projectile of the Iron Fist system on an RPG grenade.
      During the experiments, interceptor shells ensured the destruction of grenades due to the separation of the cumulative charge and the warhead and the burning of explosives. When kinetic impact shells were used, the ammunition was detonated nearby and changed the trajectory of the armor-piercing shell, thereby reducing the effectiveness of its armor penetration.

      To change the trajectory by a few angular minutes, 3-5 meters, from the target it’s a dead poultice. Within the limits of natural accuracy. And it will not work out more strongly. The energy of the BPS is tens of megajoules, and the energy of several shrapnel fragments is a couple of orders of magnitude lower. This can both worsen and improve the efficiency of the BPS hit.
  • -Dmitry-
    -Dmitry- 25 November 2014 08: 47
    0
    Again advertising kaz "trophy"?
    1. Professor
      Professor 25 November 2014 09: 49
      +2
      Quote: -Dmitry-
      Again advertising kaz "trophy"?

      I agree with you 100%. What is not an article about new technologies at VO so immediately there Israeli companies appear. Advertising... wassat
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 25 November 2014 13: 42
      +5
      Quote: -Dmitry-
      Again advertising kaz "trophy"?

      To whom to advertise here, do not tell me?
      1. Professor
        Professor 25 November 2014 17: 54
        +2
        Quote: Pimply
        To whom to advertise here, do not tell me?

        How to whom? World Zionism, of course. laughing
        1. bazilio
          bazilio 25 November 2014 20: 21
          +2
          Quote: Professor
          How to whom? World Zionism, of course. laughing

          That's as always. Just seeing Merkava in the photo, I immediately realized that the holivar will again begin in the comments, which accompanies any samples of the Israeli military-industrial complex ...
          1. Professor
            Professor 25 November 2014 20: 30
            +4
            Quote: bazilio
            That's as always. Just seeing Merkava in the photo, I immediately realized that the holivar will again begin in the comments, which accompanies any samples of the Israeli military-industrial complex ..

            You are absolutely right. It is worth skipping the word "Israel" in any article, and then all sorts of "quilted jackets" (such a user) and MIKHANS with hedgehogs will run up. And the whole discussion will come down to shit.
  • Egor65g
    Egor65g 25 November 2014 08: 55
    +4
    They say the truth - military industry drives progress smile Only this end and edge is not visible.
    1. Professor
      Professor 25 November 2014 09: 50
      +3
      Quote: Egor65G
      They say the truth - military industry drives progress smile Only this end and edge is not visible.

      So it was before. Over the past 20 years, a citizen has stepped forward and the military man draws technology from there.
  • sys-1985
    sys-1985 25 November 2014 09: 01
    -3
    Advertising is the engine of progress ... Israeli Astapa Bender))
  • Vadim237
    Vadim237 25 November 2014 10: 01
    +3
    And in our troops a new version of the KAZ Arena is in no hurry to buy.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 November 2014 13: 43
      +2
      Quote: Vadim237
      And in our troops a new version of the KAZ Arena is in no hurry to buy.


      About him somehow, in general, in principle, not particularly heard
  • Andrey NM
    Andrey NM 25 November 2014 10: 33
    +6
    That’s why the anti-tank gun still serves ...
    1. maxbaxg61
      maxbaxg61 25 November 2014 12: 20
      +1
      Yeah in Novorossia, with the old anti-tank rifles, the hammers are sent to scrap smile
  • teron
    teron 25 November 2014 10: 53
    +1
    Military equipment is becoming more and more complicated, more expensive and more expensive. Armored vehicles at the price of tanks, tanks at the price of aircraft, aircraft at the price of ships. Ships at the price of ships, but already space ones. Of course, I exaggerate, but the process is obvious. I wonder if there will be a limit to the complication and appreciation of military equipment, and if so, how science will be able to overcome it. Or will the next big war (God forbid!) Help overcome the technological and cost barrier, during which it will be possible to create a mass product with high capabilities?
  • Kar Karych
    Kar Karych 25 November 2014 11: 37
    +3
    [quote = Lopatov] At the moment, KAZ are dear option of lattice screens. [/ quote]
    Miser pays twice.

    [/ Quote]

    In the first picture of an armored personnel carrier of the Ukrainian army, which came under fire from the BM-21 "Grad" launcher, even with Kaz on this pepelatse, the chance to survive is zero, so excuse the example is not defended.
    1. wanderer_032
      wanderer_032 25 November 2014 21: 10
      -1
      Quote: Kar Karych
      In the first picture of an armored personnel carrier of the Ukrainian army, which came under fire from the BM-21 "Grad" launcher, even with Kaz on this pepelatse, the chance to survive is zero, so excuse the example is not defended.


      And in the second photo there is a clear "light" in the engine (maybe not even from an RPG, a burst from KPVT or ZU-23, or 2A42 armor-piercing). The engine ordered "to live a long time" and the heroic crew, along with the heroic landing force, shwydko on 4 bones, dropping feces, drew ottedov until something heavier flew in.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 13
        +4
        I'm afraid that in the second photo, the device is not struck from an RPG.
  • padded jacket
    padded jacket 25 November 2014 11: 41
    -3
    So far, the current KAZ systems are too expensive and ineffective.
    At present, they can only be useful to the Israeli army, which is waging war against lightly armed partisans and popular militias.
    And then its effectiveness is most likely just an advertising "trick".
    And its cost is currently extremely high, not for nothing that in spite of all the advertisedness of this unit, it is not used by more than one country in the world (except Israel).
    And the point here is not at all that, as some Jews say, Israel takes care of its soldiers, it is the extreme high cost and low efficiency of this "product".
    Indeed, as far as we know, Israel uses them only on tanks such as Merkava -4 of which only 400 out of more than 4000 vehicles, and on armored personnel carriers which only 200 out of more than 6000 copies are in service with the ground forces of the Israeli regime.
    That is, the Israeli military leaders decided that it was necessary to defend precisely these "warriors" walking in the front ranks of the aggressors against the defenders of their land and their people opposing them.
    The rest, so to speak, "not elite" (or not very important) invaders drive tanks (without KAZ) and armored personnel carriers of the 60s of the last century, type M - 113.
    But this does not mean at all that it is necessary to abandon the development and production of KAZ, it is just that it is clearly imperfect and ineffective "for now".
    1. vjhbc
      vjhbc 26 November 2014 04: 05
      +2
      Russia has not been fighting for 60 years, and for some reason the tankers have been burning, go to their mothers say it wasn’t a war because I regretted the money so if I clashed with America then it would not be a pity, but you’ll give birth to new ones.
      Quote: quilted jacket
      So far, the current KAZ systems are too expensive and ineffective.
      At present, they can only be useful to the Israeli army, which is waging war against lightly armed partisans and popular militias.
      And then its effectiveness is most likely just an advertising "trick".
      And its cost is currently extremely high, not for nothing that in spite of all the advertisedness of this unit, it is not used by more than one country in the world (except Israel).
      And the point here is not at all that, as some Jews say, Israel takes care of its soldiers, it is the extreme high cost and low efficiency of this "product".
      Indeed, as far as we know, Israel uses them only on tanks such as Merkava -4 of which only 400 out of more than 4000 vehicles, and on armored personnel carriers which only 200 out of more than 6000 copies are in service with the ground forces of the Israeli regime.
      That is, the Israeli military leaders decided that it was necessary to defend precisely these "warriors" walking in the front ranks of the aggressors against the defenders of their land and their people opposing them.
      The rest, so to speak, "not elite" (or not very important) invaders drive tanks (without KAZ) and armored personnel carriers of the 60s of the last century, type M - 113.
      But this does not mean at all that it is necessary to abandon the development and production of KAZ, it is just that it is clearly imperfect and ineffective "for now".
  • Roman 57 rus
    Roman 57 rus 25 November 2014 15: 25
    +4
    Gentlemen, there is no need to argue about the effectiveness of KAZ. I am sure that if any of us are asked to go on the attack using equipment equipped or not equipped, KAZ will choose the first
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 November 2014 17: 24
      0
      KAZ is needed, it’s unique. But he needs a worker.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 25 November 2014 17: 27
        +3
        Quote: Spade
        KAZ is needed, it’s unique. But he needs a worker.

        At the moment there are 15 interceptions real. Is it a worker or not?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 November 2014 17: 53
          -2
          No, this is not a worker.
          1. Professor
            Professor 25 November 2014 18: 50
            0
            Quote: Spade
            No, this is not a worker.

            This is really not a "worker", this is a "collective farm woman". fellow
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 November 2014 19: 02
              0
              Well, this is already an overwhelming demagogy.
              1. Professor
                Professor 25 November 2014 20: 32
                0
                Quote: Spade
                Well, this is already an overwhelming demagogy.

                You mean your detailed and reasoned comment: "No, this is not a worker"? I agree. Typical demagoguery.
                1. andj61
                  andj61 25 November 2014 22: 48
                  0
                  Good evening, Oleg! Your discussion with Lopatov began as early as "within the framework", but has now slipped into mutually unfounded accusations. At the same time, no killer arguments are visible on either side. 15 successful applications of KAZ (for 3,5 years?) Is this an indicator of its reliability or not? - And the hell knows! It is not clear how many shells were fired in a real combat situation, how they fired, how many times the KAZ worked unsuccessfully, etc.
                  But I really liked your arguments about the Zionist military. bully
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 53
                    +3
                    Quote: andj61
                    15 of successful KAZ applications (for 3,5 of the year?) - is it an indicator of its reliability or not? - And hell knows! It is not clear how many total shellings were in a real combat situation, how many times KAZ fired, and so on.

                    Over the years, not a single hit on the tank was recorded. While other equipment from various kinds of ATGM suffered
                  2. Professor
                    Professor 26 November 2014 08: 08
                    0
                    Quote: andj61
                    is it an indicator of its reliability or not? - And hell knows!

                    In addition to horseradish, everyone knows this. The death of a soldier is a national tragedy. If the victims would know everything. There are no victims, that means either arabesa is a super mazila, or Merkava is super protected, or KAZ works, or all together.
                    1. andj61
                      andj61 26 November 2014 20: 10
                      -1
                      Totally agree with you! Just I can not understand those who minus you for this comment?
                      Or do they still consider the Israelis a Zionist military? laughing
              2. Pimply
                Pimply 25 November 2014 20: 46
                0
                Quote: Spade
                Well, this is already an overwhelming demagogue

                Shovels, and it doesn’t seem to you that now you are engaged in demagogy. Full-scale war is played by other rules. And in it, tanks do not operate separately from aviation and UAVs, by the way, and artillery is not so calm. So there’s a small chance for an army like the Israeli one if that’s not getting a sub-caliber, but just a clash with mobile groups armed with anti-tank systems.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 01
                  0
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Full-scale war is played by other rules.

                  Exactly. And there is no place for unprotected equipment on the armor.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 36
                    -1
                    Quote: Spade
                    Exactly. And there is no place for unprotected equipment on the armor.

                    And what kind of unprotected equipment on the armor are you talking about? And we can look at most modern tanks and clearly appreciate that it is unrealistic to hide all equipment under armor - which shows the design of absolutely ALL armored vehicles

                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 47
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      And maybe we'll look at most modern tanks

                      Here I am about that. Gentlemen, developers from some Budun suddenly decided to accept the postulate "artillery does not exist"

                      And all over the world.
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Here I am about that. Gentlemen, developers from some Budun suddenly decided to accept the postulate "artillery does not exist"

                        And all over the world.


                        It’s just that in most cases, an Israeli-level army tank with artillery will not actually meet fate, or its probability is very small. But with the calculation of ATGM or ATGM - the probability is high.
                        Not everything can be shoved under the armor, it is impossible to hide all the elements. Armor serves primarily to protect the crew.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 25 November 2014 23: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        It’s just that in most cases, an Israeli-level army tank with artillery will actually face no fate,

                        Any conflict with the use of armed forces, with the same Egypt, and artillery will be.

                        This may or may not suit you, but Russia needs more secure systems based on the capabilities of a likely adversary.

                        I'm not talking about something particularly powerful, at least shatterproof booking. Although better from 12.7
                      3. Pimply
                        Pimply 25 November 2014 23: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        Any conflict with the use of armed forces, with the same Egypt, and artillery will be.

                        The question is how long will it be

                        Quote: Spade
                        This may or may not suit you, but Russia needs more secure systems based on the capabilities of a likely adversary.

                        Probable opponent in Russia is very different. Or are you waiting for a big, big war? And who said that in this big-big war there will be few mobile groups with anti-tank systems? There are a lot of them on the contrary
                      4. Professor
                        Professor 26 November 2014 08: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        Any conflict with the use of armed forces, with the same Egypt, and artillery will be.

                        In previous wars with Egypt, where was your artillery? 10000 Soviet advisers not advised?
                  2. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh 26 November 2014 10: 09
                    +2
                    Assault guns are usually dealt with barrel artillery.
                    bomber aircraft BEFORE its tank attacks
                    columns. Individual masked howitzers will survive, of course.
                    But the defeat of the tanks will not work.

                    And gentlemen, tank designers know about this.

                    Barrel artillery is large in size and difficult to mask.
                    Unlike ATGM calculations, which are not visible from either the air or the ground
                    until the last moment.
      2. cherina
        cherina 25 November 2014 20: 16
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        No, this is not a worker.

        you tell Hamas that they shot a tank but didn’t understand what it was, why the Russian shaitan rocket exploded and the tank was safe and sound wassat
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 08
          +1
          Fortunately, they simply do not know how to apply them.
          1. cherina
            cherina 25 November 2014 23: 22
            +2
            Quote: Spade
            Fortunately, they simply do not know how to apply them.

            Dear that you have a bad dancer complex, then suddenly they forgot how to shoot, then the shells they have are of the wrong system, maybe everything is much simpler, just the system works as it should and everything is on the drum, and the fact that you're angry is good, it just shows how you organically cannot bear the success of the Israeli defense industry means everything is right we are doing
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 November 2014 23: 26
              +1
              Quote: cherina
              Dear what kind of complex you have a bad dancer

              This is your complex of the owner of the prodigy.

              We take an anti-tank platoon, three "Cornets", supplement it with a device called "Commander-E", we have a knocked-out "Merkava". No KAZ will help with the synchronized launch of several ATGMs on one target.
              1. cherina
                cherina 25 November 2014 23: 44
                +2
                Quote: Spade
                We take an anti-tank platoon, three "Cornets", supplement it with a device called "Commander-E", we have a knocked-out "Merkava". No KAZ will help with the synchronized launch of several ATGMs on one target.

                why are you trifling, take a nuclear bomb right away, all these your theoretical calculations somehow don’t look convincing, bully let's look at the facts, there were military launches and more than once, the system worked perfectly well, there were no tank failures, what else needs to be proved and these systems are in combat units and not how you are in warehouses in case of a nuclear war
    2. Opponent
      Opponent 25 November 2014 20: 11
      0
      Hamas fired from several tens to hundreds of anti-tank missiles of various types. None of them were able to break through the Merkava tank protection system. Http://www.mignews.co.il/news/arabisrael/world/110814_173216_0184

      Decide, please, so 15, several dozen or still hundreds of times KAZ "Trophy" has proven its effectiveness)))))))
      1. Professor
        Professor 25 November 2014 20: 33
        -1
        Quote: Opponent
        Decide, please, so 15, several dozen or still hundreds of times KAZ "Trophy" has proven its effectiveness)))))))

        KAZ reacts only to those missiles that pose a threat to the tank. Those that go "by" are simply ignored.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 02
          +1
          Quote: Professor
          Those that go "by" are simply ignored.


          BGM-71F "Tou-2B" also "goes by"
          1. Professor
            Professor 25 November 2014 21: 13
            -1
            Quote: Spade
            BGM-71F "Tou-2B" also "goes by"

            Who told you that? Divulge plis source of information. My question, by the way, is valid. I can start with the TOU, and after you show how you will intercept it with a grate. wink
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 18
              +1
              And what, not by? Straight to the tank? Well, then ...
              1. Professor
                Professor 25 November 2014 21: 22
                +1
                Quote: Spade
                And what, not by? Straight to the tank? Well, then ...

                Again a question to a question? Who is the Jew here by God? Yes, right in the direction of the tank. Do you know the azimuth ...

                Well, how is it with the TOU and the grill? wink
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Professor
                  Well, how is it with the TOU and the grill?


                  I'm waiting for your story about how "Trophy" intercepted BGM-71F ... And I can hardly wait.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 25 November 2014 21: 36
                    +1
                    Quote: Spade
                    I'm waiting for your story about how "Trophy" intercepted BGM-71F ... And I can hardly wait.

                    Immediately after you show the lattice fight with TOU. Come on? What did you save? wink
                  2. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 45
                    +1
                    It is you who set out to refute my words that "Trophy" is an expensive version of the grille. So prove that KAZ is capable of more.
                  3. Professor
                    Professor 25 November 2014 21: 48
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    It is you who set out to refute my words that "Trophy" is an expensive version of the grille. So prove that KAZ is capable of more.

                    The opponent was blown away. He refused. laughing
                    He said, I’ll show him how he intercepts the TOU immediately after showing the same thing with the grill. In your opinion, is she capable of such a thing? wink
                  4. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 12
                    +1
                    Quote: Professor
                    The opponent was blown away. He refused.

                    I was blown away without question. Instead of real confirmation that "Trophy" is better than a grid, some kind of informational noise.

                    -This hand drill is no better than a rotor. Only more expensive
                    -And the brace can really receive "Radio Russia"?
                    -And can it dole?
                    -What do you answer with a question, you prove that the brace can receive Radio Russia, then we'll talk about the drill. What you cant? Blown away?
                  5. Professor
                    Professor 25 November 2014 22: 25
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    I was blown away without question. Instead of real confirmation that "Trophy" is better than a grid, some kind of informational noise.

                    I repeat I will show how he intercepts the TOU immediately after showing the same thing with the grill. I even have a video on hand. Come on? where are your bars wink
                  6. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 50
                    +1
                    Quote: Professor
                    I repeat once again I will show how he intercepts the TOU immediately after showing the same thing with the lattice.

                    If you had such information, you would have already posted it without demagogy.
                    In the meantime,

                    -and you prove that the brace "Radio Russia will be able to receive ...
                  7. Professor
                    Professor 26 November 2014 08: 12
                    +1
                    Quote: Spade
                    If you had such information, you would have already posted it without demagogy.

                    ..and I have it. How about the lattice, otherwise my hands itch it out.
  • Roman 57 rus
    Roman 57 rus 28 November 2014 03: 01
    -1
    That's nice, so you need to "force" this system to ignore!
  • Pimply
    Pimply 25 November 2014 20: 47
    0
    Quote: Opponent
    Decide, please, so 15, several dozen or still hundreds of times KAZ "Trophy" has proven its effectiveness)))))))

    First, don’t read mignews. The news they rivet through one place.
  • wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 25 November 2014 21: 16
    0
    Quote: Opponent
    Hamas fired from several tens to hundreds of anti-tank missiles of various types. None of them were able to break through the Merkava tank protection system. Http://www.mignews.co.il/news/arabisrael/world/110814_173216_0184


    What is called a method of catching nonsense.
  • 31rus
    31rus 25 November 2014 20: 05
    -1
    Already discussed on this topic, there are already RPGs using dual launch and increased speed, besides it’s interesting, but as a mortar ammunition, the trophy will work
  • TOR2
    TOR2 25 November 2014 20: 12
    +2
    Quote: -Dmitry-
    Again advertising kaz "trophy"?

    More likely not an advertisement, but an overview of developments. Israeli weapons are primarily created for the needs of the IDF; export is already a secondary task. "Trophy" or "carrot" in other conflicts and climatic zones, with a high degree of probability, will not find as many positive responses as they did in the IDF. The developers have followed the basic principle - the customer likes it.
    As for our developments, then of course they need to be continued. We need a specialized KAZ for infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers. These systems should be of modular type. So that they can be installed based on the tasks performed.
    1. cherina
      cherina 25 November 2014 20: 33
      -1
      Quote: TOR2
      More likely not an advertisement, but an overview of developments. Israeli weapons are primarily created for the needs of the IDF; export is already a secondary task. "Trophy" or "carrot" in other conflicts and climatic zones, with a high degree of probability, will not find as many positive responses as they did in the IDF. The developers have followed the basic principle - the customer likes it.
      As for our developments, then of course they need to be continued. We need a specialized KAZ for infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers. These systems should be of modular type. So that they can be installed based on the tasks performed.

      let me disagree with you, of all the samples created by the Israeli defense companies, about thirty percent are only used by the Israeli army, the army can’t buy all that huge assortment offered to it, so here they are counting on the import of their defense technologies and believe them are in line especially for those that they have been tested in the army, precisely because everyone knows that they really work so that the army plays here as a kind of advertisement, everyone wants to buy weapons that are verified by real war and not handouts, as for merkava and kaz do not repeat nonsense, it’s not clear where I heard and merkava begin to export and many who are interested in kaz so leave the pathos and look at the real facts
      1. TOR2
        TOR2 25 November 2014 20: 54
        +3
        Quote: cherina
        everyone wants to buy weapons that are verified by real war

        In this thread, there have already been "several copies broken" about this. You have tested the weapon with your war. A foreign customer bought a weapon from you, and that's great. But bad luck, the customer had to fight with a more technologically advanced enemy. Are you sure the weapon performance indicators will be the same?
        1. Professor
          Professor 25 November 2014 21: 02
          +1
          Quote: TOR2
          Are you sure the weapon's performance indicators will be the same?

          I'm sure they will be different. One way or another. In general, "efficiency" is a statistical thing and depends on many random factors. hi
        2. cherina
          cherina 25 November 2014 21: 12
          +1
          Quote: TOR2
          In this thread, there have already been "several copies broken" about this. You have tested the weapon with your war. A foreign customer bought a weapon from you, and that's great. But bad luck, the customer had to fight with a more technologically advanced enemy. Are you confident that the weapon performance indicators will be the same

          Dear, why did you get that it should excite me, I sold you a weapon, but with whom you will fight it is not my problem, as they say, take it on my own so as not to fall when walking, and if your enemy is more technological then come we’ll sell you more advanced weapons, hi but expensive
          1. TOR2
            TOR2 25 November 2014 22: 08
            +2
            More advanced weapons are created on the basis of something, for example, from the experience of using previous models and not only in their own army.
            In addition, an important fact is who and how will use the more advanced weapons sold by you. Sell ​​the monkey a grant and get anti-advertising to your weapon in the form of a dead monkey.
            1. cherina
              cherina 25 November 2014 22: 20
              +1
              Quote: TOR2
              More advanced weapons are created on the basis of something, for example, from the experience of using previous models and not only in their own army.
              In addition, an important fact is who and how will use the more advanced weapons sold by you. Sell ​​the monkey a grant and get anti-advertising to your weapon in the form of a dead monkey.

              well, you really did show examples with your sales experience to Arabs and notice this together with your instructors and sometimes the instructors instead of monkeys and didn’t help again, it may be true that Sadat said about Russian weapons that they are worse than American ones and because of this they lost all their wars
              1. TOR2
                TOR2 25 November 2014 22: 45
                +1
                Quote: cherina
                well, you really showed examples with your sales experience to Arabs

                In terms of commerce, I do not wish you such a margin.
                Quote: cherina
                and sometimes the instructors sat instead of monkeys and again didn’t help,
                Yes, Mr. McCain still has a splinter from an anti-aircraft missile from the "fifth point" not as lacking, because of which he made complexes for himself. Probably heard.
                1. cherina
                  cherina 25 November 2014 23: 33
                  0
                  Okay, I’ve found here a documentary filmmaker about Israeli arms firms that just opens up the topic of why they are buying an Israeli http://doskado.ucoz.ru/blog/2014-08-31-14351 movie online lol
  • Opponent
    Opponent 25 November 2014 20: 20
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Quote: Spade
    Are you sure? And with what army did you manage to conquer Israel during this time?



    PS
    The mothers of the soldiers who died in Chechnya do not care what they called where they died, the war, or something else?

    It is very ugly, Professor, in this context to disturb the memory of the dead and their mothers! To make it a little clearer to you, I WILL NOT begin to mention the victims of the Holocaust and explain to their relatives the topic of improving the efficiency of organic combustion!
    1. Professor
      Professor 25 November 2014 20: 36
      +2
      Quote: Opponent
      It is very ugly, Professor, in this context to disturb the memory of the dead and their mothers! To make it a little clearer to you, I WILL NOT begin to mention the victims of the Holocaust and explain to their relatives the topic of improving the efficiency of organic combustion!

      It's ugly not to learn from tragedy. Jews have learned from the Holocaust you mentioned. Almost 1995 years have passed since New Year's Eve 20. Where is the Russian KAZ asked? No money?

      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 05
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        It's ugly not to learn from tragedy.

        Who said they didn't get it? In 1999, the brains of the fathers-commanders were adjusted, the actions "we will enter in a column, they will be scared" were not taken. The losses of armored vehicles are minimal.

        Well, about the photos ...
        1. Professor
          Professor 25 November 2014 21: 18
          0
          Quote: Spade
          Who said they didn’t remove it?

          And how many combat tanks did KAZ get into? Why then 8.8.8 it was not on the tanks? However, like magic grids?

          Quote: Spade
          Well, about the photos ...

          Now I know for sure where the money of Israeli taxpayers went. Into this pit. laughing By the way, I can show Gaza from the other side, with which they do not like to show it, since this spoils the image of the sufferers.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 30
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            And how many combat tanks did KAZ get into?

            What for? "to be?" Our regiment did not lose a single tank. Without any KAZ


            Quote: Professor
            Now I know for sure where the money of Israeli taxpayers went. Into this pit.

            Right Yes, and the Iron Dome. However, our method is much less expensive.
            1. Professor
              Professor 25 November 2014 21: 43
              +1
              Quote: Spade
              What for? "to be?" Our regiment did not lose a single tank. Without any KAZ

              What do you mean why? And what's that? Or weren't people sitting there?


              Or is it not yours?

              PS
              Where are the magic grids?
              Quote: Spade
              However, our method is much less expensive.

              You are mistaken. LCD is a penny compared to the tribute that you pay for a truce. The money runs out and flames again.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 November 2014 21: 59
                +1
                Quote: Professor
                What do you mean why? And what's that? Or weren't people sitting there?
                http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5108/krion109.9/0_59577_8af6438c_XXXL.jpg

                A tank left without ammunition and destroyed by Georgian artillery fire at the location of the base of Russian peacekeepers. The crew is alive. No KAZ could help them

                Quote: Professor
                You are mistaken. LCD is a penny compared to that tribute

                And you fold everything. The money Israel spends on the Sector constantly. (this is a tribute, not the subsidies that Chechnya receives) plus the maintenance of the ZhK plus economic losses from shelling, plus 15 million bucks a day that are spent during regularly starting military operations ...

                Our costs are cheap compared to yours. And at least we pay for the business, for loyalty. And we do not give money for the livelihood of those who are shelling us.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 25 November 2014 22: 18
                  -1
                  Quote: Spade
                  A tank left without ammunition and destroyed by Georgian artillery fire at the location of the base of Russian peacekeepers. The crew is alive. No KAZ could help them

                  And what are you talking about? All Russian tanks from artillery? And the one with the detached tower (tactical number 321) from the 1st company of the tank battalion of the 693rd motorized rifle regiment of the 19th motorized rifle division? Why did you lie in your lieutenant? Mikhail Molchan, ordinary driver Maxim Pasko and gunner ordinary private service Dmitry Burdenko? KAZ could save them? Answer please without inherent wagging, yes or no?


                  Quote: Spade
                  Our costs are cheap compared to yours.

                  And you can tsiferki in the studio. You so confidently declare that they are at your fingertips who pay how much. Will it be easy for you? Very interested.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 29
                    +2
                    Quote: Professor
                    And what are you talking about? All Russian tanks from artillery? And the one with the detached tower (tactical number 321) from the 1st company of the tank battalion of the 693rd motorized rifle regiment of the 19th motorized rifle division?

                    And there generally is. Three RPG shots from pistol distance. Also, no "Trophy" would have saved. The dead are on the conscience of an amateur to talk on a cell phone of a journalist. He demanded a pace, did not give us permission. point to get around or rush the infantry. As a result, a lot of wasted time trying to cleanse the village of the Georgian reconnaissance group that had long gone from it.

                    And you can tsiferki in the studio.

                    2011. Net subsidies to Chechnya 68 billion rubles. At the rate of 30 rubles. for the dollar - 2,3 billion dollars a year.
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 25 November 2014 22: 32
                      0
                      Quote: Spade
                      And there generally is. Three RPG shots from pistol distance. Also, no "Trophy" would have saved. The dead are on the conscience of an amateur to talk on a cell phone of a journalist. He demanded a pace, did not give us permission. point to get around or rush the infantry. As a result, a lot of wasted time trying to cleanse the village of the Georgian reconnaissance group that had long gone from it.

                      KAZ could save them? Answer please without inherent wagging, yes or no?
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: Professor
                        KAZ could save them?

                        No. Triple start simultaneously from a distance of less than 10 meters.
                      2. Professor
                        Professor 25 November 2014 22: 47
                        -2
                        Quote: Spade
                        No. Triple start simultaneously from a distance of less than 10 meters.

                        Let's say. But what about your magic bars? Where are they?
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 25 November 2014 23: 06
                        +1
                        There are no bars. They would not be needed, but some decided that he was the Great Suvorov
                      4. Professor
                        Professor 26 November 2014 08: 13
                        -1
                        Quote: Spade
                        They would not be needed

                        not needed because the tank how do we see "survived" without them?
            2. wanderer_032
              wanderer_032 25 November 2014 22: 30
              +1
              Quote: Professor
              And what are you talking about?


              And then shaw you didn’t say anything.

              The Georgian counter-tactical crew, which knocked out this tank, was, in turn, destroyed by the soldiers of the Vostok battalion while clearing the village.
              Total Russian army irrevocably lost 3 tank
              http://gigamir.net/agenda/internet/pub793799

              Moreover, I note for the entire campaign in Georgia in 2008.
              1. Professor
                Professor 25 November 2014 22: 34
                0
                Quote: wanderer_032
                Moreover, I note for the whole company in Georgia in 2008.

                You tell the mothers of these soldiers that they say only three tanks. How do you think it will become easier for them? And if KAZ had delivered something, something could have changed?
                1. wanderer_032
                  wanderer_032 25 November 2014 22: 40
                  0
                  Quote: Professor
                  You tell the mothers of these soldiers that they say only three tanks.


                  There is no war without loss. Soldiers will always die in war. The only question is how much. In war, as in war.
                  This applies to anyone who is in the war, even generals.
                2. Professor
                  Professor 25 November 2014 22: 43
                  -1
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  There is no war without loss. Soldiers will always die in war. The only question is how much. In war, as in war.
                  This applies to anyone who is in the war, even generals.

                  KAZ could save them?
            3. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 November 2014 22: 43
              +1
              Quote: wanderer_032
              The Georgian counter-tactical crew, which knocked out this tank, was, in turn, destroyed by the soldiers of the Vostok battalion while clearing the village.

              Tales of the Vienna Forest. They left.
            4. Pimply
              Pimply 25 November 2014 22: 45
              +1
              Quote: wanderer_032
              And then shaw you didn’t say anything.

              What, instead of trying to give an argument, is it enough for you to try to stab a person on a national basis?
              Quote: wanderer_032
              Total Russian army irrevocably lost 3 tank

              It's never all
      2. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 25 November 2014 22: 07
        +3
        Quote: Professor
        What do you mean why? And what's that? Or weren't people sitting there?


        Cheap trolling. This tank burned down without a crew. He had completely used up the BC and he was driven away for the building.

        T-72BM / BU tank from the 141st separate tank battalion
        Where: South Ossetia, Tskhinval, South Peace Base.
        It was burned on 09.08.2008, at about 18-19 hours of the day on the southern outskirts of Tskhinvali, at the location of the base of Russian peacekeepers.
        One of the two tanks of 141 battalions that broke into the peacekeepers' location during an unsuccessful attempt to release them on the afternoon of August 9 by the forces of the first battalion of 135 MSP and the tank company of 141 battalions.
        The tank kept fire for several hours with peacekeepers, ran out of ammunition and was damaged. The crew left him and joined the peacekeepers, after which he left with them on the evening of August 9.
        The tank commander, Lieutenant Alexander Popov was wounded in the leg.
        http://forum.topwar.ru/topic/2094-война-в-южной-осетии-7-12-августа-2008-г-потер
        and-in /
        1. Professor
          Professor 25 November 2014 22: 22
          -1
          Quote: wanderer_032
          Cheap trolling.

          But what about Mikhail Molchan, Maxim Pasko, Dmitry Burdenko?
          1. wanderer_032
            wanderer_032 25 November 2014 22: 35
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            But what about Mikhail Molchan, Maxim Pasko, Dmitry Burdenko?


            So then the tank crew from the second photo. From this one.



            In addition, it was far from the new T-72B.
            1. Professor
              Professor 25 November 2014 22: 38
              0
              Quote: wanderer_032
              In addition, this was far from the new T-72B.

              I know what photo they are from. I can read it myself. It does not matter how much the new tank. The question is, could KAZ save them or increase their chances of survival?
              1. wanderer_032
                wanderer_032 25 November 2014 23: 05
                +1
                Quote: Professor
                The question is, could KAZ save them or increase their chances of survival?


                Could. Only from RPGs and ATGMs flying along a flat trajectory, and flying to a tank from a frontal or flanking direction, parallel to a flat earth surface.
                From this they and the KDZ "Contact-1" could be saved, which is installed on the T-72B. But the tank was destroyed from the stern. He probably ended up without infantry cover, which is why it happened.
                In the same way, Georgian tanks were destroyed by South Ossetian militias.

                Who: 2 T-72B tanks (tactical numbers could not be established) from the Gori separate tank battalion.
                Where: South Ossetia, Tskhinval
                intersection of Moskovskaya and Privokzalnaya streets (Peacemakers)
                Destroyed on the afternoon of August 8, between 13:00 and 14:00, by a group of militiamen General Barankevich. Both crews died.
              2. Professor
                Professor 26 November 2014 08: 15
                -1
                Quote: wanderer_032
                Could

                Thank. I rest my case.
  • wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 25 November 2014 21: 40
    +2
    Article amused. The general meaning is to buy KAZ "Trophy" and your "fifth point" in absolute safety, that is, in warmth, peace and with a cup of coffee in one hand and a sandwich with sausage in the other. laughing

    And in Kolomna "loshars work alone", as elsewhere in Russia. They are still "just learning":
    Despite cooperation with South Korea, the Arena complex, developed by the Russian company KBM, is still under development.(quote) laughing





  • padded jacket
    padded jacket 25 November 2014 21: 55
    0
    Several times I watched this video, where allegedly KAZ Trophy knocks a grenade from an RPG 29.
    I don’t know if I’m blind, but in my opinion the grenade just hits Merkava aboard, followed by the explosion of her warhead and the destruction of the side screens of the tank.
    1. wanderer_032
      wanderer_032 25 November 2014 22: 19
      +2
      Quote: quilted jacket
      I don’t know if I’m blind, but in my opinion the grenade just hits Merkava aboard, followed by the explosion of her warhead and the destruction of the side screens of the tank.


      The video material is not enough to draw a conclusion about the destruction of the Merkava-4 MBT. In addition, the KAZ works so quickly that the human eye is not able to catch it.
      This can only be seen in slow motion, which was produced by a high-speed camera.
      Now, if a continuation were shown, as the tank burns and the tank breaks in it, then such conclusions could be drawn. But this is not in the video provided.
      1. cherina
        cherina 25 November 2014 22: 28
        0
        Quote: wanderer_032
        The video material is not enough to draw a conclusion about the destruction of the Merkava-4 MBT. In addition, the KAZ works so quickly that the human eye is not able to catch it.
        This can only be seen in slow motion, which was produced by a high-speed camera.
        Now, if a continuation were shown, as the tank burns and the tank breaks in it, then such conclusions could be drawn. But this is not in the video provided.

        so it’s you in the Hamas press service contact they will provide you with materials that interest you, they also shot you have a good relationship with them, they won’t refuse friends
        1. wanderer_032
          wanderer_032 25 November 2014 22: 47
          +2
          Quote: cherina
          so it’s you in the Hamas press service contact they will provide you with materials that interest you, they also shot you have a good relationship with them, they won’t refuse friends


          Yes, I have to go deep into your Hamas-heh ... s, you didn’t share something with them there, but I have to ask. For three hundred years it didn’t rest against me. This is an Israeli tank, so you yourself and ask them.
          As a fact, it is impossible to confirm the destruction of the Merkava-4 MBT based on this video, period.
          1. cherina
            cherina 25 November 2014 23: 58
            +1
            Quote: wanderer_032
            Yes, I have to go deep into your Hamas-heh ... s, you didn’t share something with them there, but I have to ask. For three hundred years it didn’t rest against me. This is an Israeli tank, so you yourself and ask them.
            As a fact, it is impossible to confirm the destruction of the Merkava-4 MBT based on this video, period.

            correctly you say it’s impossible to confirm the fact of the merkava’s destruction because the kaz system worked as it should and nothing happened to the tank
            1. wanderer_032
              wanderer_032 27 November 2014 08: 50
              +1
              Quote: cherina
              correctly you say it is impossible to confirm the fact of the destruction of merkava


              It is impossible to confirm the fact of damage or destruction, but also to deny it too.
              The video is cropped and on this basis nothing can be said for sure, one can only speculate.
              Which in this case is inappropriate.
              Or or. There is no third. The truth is always one.
              1. cherina
                cherina 27 November 2014 13: 34
                0
                Quote: wanderer_032
                It is impossible to confirm the fact of damage or destruction, but also to deny it too.
                The video is cropped and on this basis nothing can be said for sure, one can only speculate.
                Which in this case is inappropriate.
                Or or. There is no third. The truth is always one.

                Dear opponent, if there was a fact of hitting or destroying a tank, all the farther it would be known to us, this is not your system, this fact could not be hidden and enough to juggle with arguments, the tank is intact, the crew also the tester works thanks everyone
      2. padded jacket
        padded jacket 25 November 2014 22: 48
        +2
        Quote: wanderer_032

        The video material is not enough to draw a conclusion about the destruction of the Merkava-4 MBT.

        Now, if a continuation were shown, as the tank burns and the tank breaks in it, then such conclusions could be drawn. But this is not in the video provided.


        Of course, I apologize, but where did I write that Merkava was destroyed?
        Judging by the video, the grenade got into the area of ​​the motor the tank is damaged.
        The degree of damage is unknown (in any case to me).
        1. Maki Avellevich
          Maki Avellevich 28 November 2014 11: 30
          0
          Judging by the video, the grenade hit the motor area


          the Merkava has an engine from the front like a VW "beetle" ...
  • gridasov
    gridasov 25 November 2014 23: 49
    -1
    In one of the countries, KAZ is being developed based on e-mail. magnetic protection. The essence is simple. Any projectile or bullet in flight has an ionization potential. A corny simple "bell" is installed with the potential integrated into the potential of the approaching projectile. As soon as it flies into the interaction zone, a plasma breakdown occurs. The speed of such a pulsed plasma flow does not need to be regulated; there is no need to wait and determine the direction of the approach of the projectile. The potential generation on the "bell" is carried out by a separate power generator. The principles of such a system have been known for a long time.
  • gridasov
    gridasov 25 November 2014 23: 58
    -1
    I forgot to add such an important quality of such protection, which consists in the fact that people with limited intellectual potential cannot service and use such systems, if I may say so. Which is very important at the present stage.
  • bmv04636
    bmv04636 26 November 2014 14: 55
    0
    KAZ Trophy is probably good, but as I understand it, Attack does not work against a rocket.
    1. Roman 57 rus
      Roman 57 rus 28 November 2014 02: 54
      0
      Against KAZ, it is very effective to fire ATGM in one gulp (2-4 pcs.)
  • bmv04636
    bmv04636 26 November 2014 15: 17
    0
    A wonderful marking 4 with a shroud has one huge with huge bold with bold minus this-
    eighty tone, eighty tone.
  • kplayer
    kplayer 26 November 2014 15: 55
    +1
    - Obvious misinformation! "Merkava" I and II - 63t., III and IVth - 65t., Without looking at a tag ...
    1. bmv04636
      bmv04636 26 November 2014 22: 01
      0
      65 tons is without ammunition and crew, and if you add all this yes plus KAZ it goes under 80 tons
      1. cherina
        cherina 26 November 2014 23: 29
        +1
        Quote: bmv04636
        65 tons is without ammunition and crew, and if you add all this yes plus KAZ it goes under 80 tons

        what 80 tons of people are you raving about, look better how much they weigh, leopards, abrams, chieftains are not much less so stop hysteria over the fact that it is intended only for Middle Eastern TV
      2. kplayer
        kplayer 26 November 2014 23: 37
        +1
        Stop making it up, yeah! Combat weight comes with ammunition, KAZ - up to 1,5 tons ("Arena" - 1,1-1,3 tons).
        1. bmv04636
          bmv04636 27 November 2014 14: 12
          0
          Well wiki 65 tons of marking 4 is listed as empty without fuel ammunition with all this
          "Merkava Mk.4" [29].

          70-ton (65 t [22] - empty weight without ammunition, crew, etc.) Merkava Mk.4 has a 1,42-fold lower degree of protection (3,18 t / m³) than a 50-ton (46,5 t empty) T-90MS (4,54 t / m³). It should be borne in mind that in connection with the mass introduction of the SLA, the combat statistics of shells entering the tank changed dramatically in the 2000s - now most of the shells hit the body, not the tower. At the same time, the lower frontal sheet has a thickness (but not the equivalent of protection) of only 100 mm and it is located high, behind it is the MTO compartment. Shooting on the go is complicated by severe nose contraction. Shooting from a place is complicated by the exhaust of the engine going in front of the MSA devices (in the sector ± 15 °). Elements of KAZ are located openly and are vulnerable to bullets and fragments (which is also characteristic of other KAZ) [13].

          The machine is significantly (300 mm or more) higher than its counterparts [30].
          1. cherina
            cherina 27 November 2014 16: 49
            0
            Quote: bmv04636
            0-ton (65 t [22] - empty weight without ammunition, crew, etc.) Merkava Mk.4 has a 1,42-fold lower degree of protection (3,18 t / m³) than a 50-ton (46,5 t empty) T-90MS (4,54 t / m³). It should be borne in mind that in connection with the mass introduction of the SLA, the combat statistics of shells entering the tank changed dramatically in the 2000s - now most of the shells hit the body, not the tower. At the same time, the lower frontal sheet has a thickness (but not the equivalent of protection) of only 100 mm and it is located high, behind it is the MTO compartment. Shooting on the go is complicated by severe nose contraction. Shooting from a place is complicated by the exhaust of the engine going in front of the MSA devices (in the sector ± 15 °). Elements of KAZ are located openly and are vulnerable to bullets and fragments (which is also characteristic of other KAZ) [13].

            Dear, that you are trying to prove with mathematical calculations that everything that is heavier than 70 tons on Russian soil will not just fall apart or something, your rocky complexes are traveling on the ground and nothing will happen to them what the subject of the dispute is, explain if Singapore buys them and it means what yes they say, the buyers are very picky and just do not buy anything that they relate to national defense is a priority, so do not need it here for la poplar they specifically waited for when they give permission to sell it is not t-90 mercenaries, leopards or Leclerc namely Merkava
            1. bmv04636
              bmv04636 28 November 2014 09: 31
              0
              Well, we know how Jews trade and that someone doesn’t take something, you can’t tell tales. Merkava 4 is a good defensive tank for small military theaters. Let’s explain, try to quickly shift the measurement to 5 thousand km, and most importantly, that she could enter the battle on the move. I wish you good luck if you succeed laughing
              At their core, carrots are heavy mobile bunkers, not tanks. The concept of the front engine arrangement does not provide additional protection if the enemy has modern anti-tank guns, see above everything is written. Most importantly, the marking 4 is not very mobile because of its weight and dimensions, as well as abrams.
              1. cherina
                cherina 28 November 2014 19: 39
                0
                Quote: bmv04636
                Well, we know how Jews trade and that someone doesn’t take something, you can’t tell tales. Merkava 4 is a good defensive tank for small military theaters. Let’s explain, try to quickly shift the measurement to 5 thousand km, and most importantly, that she could enter the battle on the move. I wish you good luck if you succeed laughing
                At their core, carrots are heavy mobile bunkers, not tanks. The concept of the front engine arrangement does not provide additional protection if the enemy has modern anti-tank guns, see above everything is written. Most importantly, the marking 4 is not very mobile because of its weight and dimensions, as well as abrams.

                here we have a cognitive dissonance on the basis of national mental hostility, yes, we can trade and I am proud of it that it doesn’t cause a complex of guilt towards others who can’t trade this is their problem, I’ll explain to you why we are bought weapons, precisely because we do it well and it has already been tested in the war, and people like to buy proven samples, because they are very expensive and even the Indians don’t buy your vaunted T-90 firewood, you dropped the Indian market, and as they say what has fallen is gone, you can transfer the tank to 5000 km either with trailers or the railway or you have tanks transporting planes wassat in one you are right merkava good defensive tank with good crew protection and your sorry trough called t-90 should be issued under the slogan-the main number and women still give birth hi
                1. bmv04636
                  bmv04636 28 November 2014 20: 58
                  -1
                  I, too, am proud that you know how to breathe in easier to buy than to refuse fellows commendable. Just as you are going to deliver a mark by train, you’ll disassemble it at half of it. A trailer for 5000 km flag to you in one place and in the know. that we have bridges with a limit of 60 tons. And it’s better for your carrot to not meet the old man T-72B3 in frontal combat, because the lower frontal sheet has a thickness (but not the equivalent of protection) of only 100 mm and is high, behind it is the MTO compartment, and on the driver’s side the marking box will . So don’t say gop until you jumped over.
                  1. bmv04636
                    bmv04636 28 November 2014 21: 55
                    0
                    Oh yes I forgot to add to your brand only Aboriginal people to drive no more
                    As a result of the increase in the range of fire contact, the Merkava, originally created under the conditions of a particular theater, turns out to be in an extremely disadvantageous situation. - starting with 2 and over km, the shells of her guns do not pierce the frontal armor of foreign tanks, while the shells of the guns of her opponents pierce the armor of the Mercury lines at the distance to 3 km, NLD armor - at the distance to 4 km.
                    And God forbid she to meet in battle with the T-90 CM
                    1. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 1 December 2014 19: 49
                      -1
                      Merkava OBPS are exactly the same as Abrams.
                      There are uranium, there are tungsten.
                      Problem tank for Merkava - Abrams only
                      with his uranium armor.
                      T-90 is not the most protected tank in the world,
                      although its offensive capabilities are good.
                  2. cherina
                    cherina 29 November 2014 02: 01
                    +2
                    Quote: bmv04636
                    I, too, am proud that you know how to breathe in easier to buy than to refuse fellows commendable. Just as you are going to deliver a mark by train, you’ll disassemble it at half of it. A trailer for 5000 km flag to you in one place and in the know. that we have bridges with a limit of 60 tons. And it’s better for your carrot to not meet the old man T-72B3 in frontal combat, because the lower frontal sheet has a thickness (but not the equivalent of protection) of only 100 mm and is high, behind it is the MTO compartment, and on the driver’s side the marking box will . So don't say gop until you jumped

                    Yes, I re-read your comment and nearly wept over such a set of stupidity and didn’t hear cotton patriotism for a long time, well, let's start in order, first of all, that in your country there are no normal roads and bridges. whistle without any problems, bridges on which trailers cannot call them go round alternative routes without any problems, secondly, we sell weapons with those services with full service support, and you really play around for rollbacks and rentals how many problems there were from airplanes yours refuse tanks there were a lot of scandalous publications on this topic, but they would be silent about your t-72b3 because it towers smartly and how beautifully they burn like candles, look at youtube a lot of clips, it’s not a tank against a carrot from the series (the women are still giving birth) I sat in it in the middle, in short, a tin can for kamikaze even urgently leave the problem, after n his carrot is like comparing a Lada and a Mercedes do not tell me, and your vaunted T-90 is the same T-72 modernized and how many of them you have in the army 50 or less, even your generals do not want to buy it for the army and even your mathematical calculations, it’s not clear where you can get them from, you can twist the tube well, then you know what to do with them, a merkava can cut your tank from a distance of 5 km, your tankers won’t even have time to understand what happened to them, so you can’t tell me for whom and why our tank was created, it was created for war and it’s on the drum who are the poopas or non-polite people, it just presses and shoots at everything that is an obstacle in its path and you’re right I don’t envy those who will be in these of your tankanas on the way to the merkava
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • cherina
    cherina 29 November 2014 02: 17
    +2
    This is a graphic addition to the above.
    1. bmv04636
      bmv04636 29 November 2014 15: 46
      -1
      This picture has already been discussed. Don't be a miserable troll to compare a guided missile with an uncontrollable laugh, and a new family like Tornado S
      "Tornado-S" (C - Tornado) - modernized MLRS 9K58 "Tornado". The system includes a modernized combat vehicle equipped with an ASUNO and new unguided rockets of a caliber of 300 mm with a maximum flight range of up to 120 km. In the future, it is possible to increase the range to 200 km. So your tablet is out of date. And in the race, no one in the world could not create powerful long-range MLRS (with non-guided missiles) only we
      As for the T-90 and T-90MS, this is the same if you compare Mark 2 to Mark 4. As for the range, it’s incorrect to compare the guided missile and projectile shot even our T-72 has 9K119M Reflex-M guided missiles (UR) .5 km range, and already in Almaty there is a guided missile with a range of 8 and 10 km.
      1. cherina
        cherina 29 November 2014 16: 59
        +1
        Quote: bmv04636
        As for the T-90 and T-90MS, this is the same if you compare Mark 2 to Mark 4. As for the range, it’s incorrect to compare the guided missile and projectile shot even our T-72 has 9K119M Reflex-M guided missiles (UR) .5 km range, and already in Almaty there is a guided missile with a range of 8 and 10 km.

        Dear I brought this table and would ask you to pay attention only to tanks, other nonsense is not interesting to me now, look at the most significant indicator in our dispute is the detection parameter, so it is higher on carrots than on your t-90ms and this parameter is the most important, my analogy so that you can understand this as a duel of a person with one hundred percent vision and a person with short -4 vision, one has a rifle with an optical sight and the other pm has one has a new body armor and the other has a Russia shirt ahead and you talk about some super fantastic novelties there which you supposedly have, but nobody saw them in the combat units, but we have it all in the combat units and are ready to be used, that’s all the difference is that one is a teaser and the other is about your armature dear enough, there are mushrooms there is no armata and you want I will tell you its secret and there will be no money for the project for a long time sawed and eaten and nothing good except for handouts and rumors did not do that's all at current oil prices, I think the second time they don’t allocate so that you will be upgrading your t-72 for another very long time
        1. bmv04636
          bmv04636 29 November 2014 21: 35
          0
          I drew attention to the tank to compare the flight range of a guided missile and a projectile is extremely incorrect, is not it true and as I know from Israel, both marking 2 and carrot 3 are also for armament. The question is how many 4 markings do you have?
          Thus, in early January, 2000, in the course of hostilities to liberate Grozny, one of the regiment's assault squads led fierce battles in the area of ​​the railway depot. The actions of the motorized infantry, as expected, were supported by the T-72B tanks of the regiment's tank battalion. The enemy defended stubbornly and desperately, skillfully using large quantities of anti-tank grenade launchers and even anti-tank systems. Therefore, despite the well-organized and constantly maintained interaction of tanks with infantry, a powerful fire damage inflicted on the enemy by artillery, combat vehicles were still subjected to repeated hits of grenades and even ATGM.
          In the course of these battles, the tank with onboard No. 611 got the most. For 2 days of continuous hostilities, this vehicle got 3 Fagot ATGMs and 6 RPG-7 grenades.
          The hits occurred in the following parts of the tank.
          ATGM - to the left under the tower (all):
          • two - in the fuel tanks on the fenders under the turret, which, during the fighting, the tank crews always kept them “dry”. Bucky swelled and torn, then the elements of the hinged dynamic protection on the tower worked, there was no armor penetration;
          • one - in the board under the tower; reflected by the triggered element mounted dynamic protection mounted on rubber metal side screens.
          Grenades from RPG-7:
          • one - on top of the commander's hatch of the tower; a cumulative jet pierced the hatch and, without hitting the tank commander, went into the aft wall of the tower;
          • two - to the left in the upper frontal part of the tower; neutralized with activated elements of mounted dynamic protection;
          • three - on the hull side, 2 on the left and 1 on the right; all reflected by dynamic protection elements mounted on rubber-metal side screens.
          As a result, not a single hit resulted in the loss of combat capability of the tank, which continuously continued to perform the combat mission. This fact was confirmed during the personal conversation of the author with the commander of this tank and the company commander in June 2000. Moreover, the commanders of the units confirmed that all the other battalion tanks had been repeatedly hit by an anti-tank missile and RPG grenades, had explosions on mines and land mines . But all the crews remained alive, and the tanks were efficient! After explosions on mines and land mines, the equipment was restored in a short time, either by the forces of the crews, or by military repair agencies, depending on the nature of the damage received.
  • bmv04636
    bmv04636 29 November 2014 21: 52
    0
    The question is, what about oil, and it cost 40 to live did not die. As I understand it, shale happiness will burst hello to the "light elves" Moreover, Russia increased its gold reserve by 37 tons in September, increasing reserves for the sixth month in a row, according to the International Monetary Fund. The entire gold reserve of Russia is 1149 tons. We exchange empty candy wrappers (that is, $) for physical gold. Here's another question for you. Israel, I hope, does not keep its gold with the light elves, otherwise they say that it (gold) has not been in storage for a long time, there is only tungsten wrapped in gold foil.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 December 2014 19: 41
      +1
      This is approximately 50 billion dollars.
      The debt of Russian companies to Western banks is $ 700 billion.
      To pay, you need to accumulate 15 times more gold.
  • Beiderlei
    Beiderlei 1 December 2014 14: 45
    0
    The chariot looks ............. powerful !!!!!!!!!!
  • egor670
    egor670 13 January 2015 17: 21
    0
    The Artis Iron curtain complex includes optical sensors that classify and select a target point, and containers containing striking elements that are released to destroy the flying munition ... Especially for this type of protection, make a tandem charge, the first fragmentation rocket. explodes in front of the machine and demolishes this system, the second pierces the side.