Military Review

Experimental Rheinmetall RH-70 Assault Rifle

56
German gunsmith designers gave the world a large number of samples of various rifle weaponsSome of their models never went into the series, remaining forever in the form of prototypes and experimental samples. These models include the experimental Rheinmetall RH-70 assault rifle, which was created as an alternative to the successful Heckler-Koch G-3 (HK G3) machine gun. This automatic rifle was adopted by the army of the Federal Republic of Germany in the 1959 year and was replaced by the HK G36 submachine gun only in the 1995 year. At the same time, large stocks of HK G3 machines are stored in German warehouses; besides this, it is still in service with many countries of the world.

Experimental assault rifle Rheinmetall RH-70 was created by the designers of the same German company in 1970 year. The rifle was made by the bull-pap (English bullpup) scheme that was gaining popularity in those years. Most often, this term refers to the layout of small arms, in which the trigger is brought forward and is in front of the percussion mechanism and magazine. This scheme has a number of significant advantages.

The advantages of the bullpup layout are obvious enough - it allows you to get rid of the "dead" butt space, taking this place with the mechanism of the weapon itself. The resulting gain in the length of the small arms with the same barrel length is quite significant. For example, with an equal length of the barrel, which is 50 cm, the M16A2 rifle made according to the traditional pattern has a length of 100 cm, and one of the most well-known examples of bull-papas Steyr AUG has a total length of 80 cm. It is important infantry, which are forced to spend a lot of time in military equipment (in armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, helicopters), which is not different interior space, the dimensions of the weapon are of great importance. Therefore, reducing the size of small arms seems to be justified and very significant.



Also, the smaller dimensions of small arms are a significant advantage during the conduct of hostilities in confined spaces, in forest areas, etc. The use of “traditional” folding butts on weapons is partly able to solve this problem. However, with a folded butt, aiming fire is almost impossible. Bringing the butt from the folded marching position to the combat requires a certain time, and in battle even a second of delay can cost the soldier his life. In addition, the weapons built according to the bullpup scheme allow in extreme cases to fire with just one hand, even if the accuracy of the fire will significantly suffer.

The main advantages of the bullpup scheme:
- solution of the issue with the “dead” space in the form of a butt;
- a significant reduction in the length of the weapon while maintaining the same length of the barrel;
- reduction of the shoulder recoil of the weapon, which adversely affect the accuracy when shooting.

For the first time, this scheme was used on the Korobov TKB-454-43 design automaton, but global recognition came to this scheme only at the beginning of the 70-s of the 20th century. It was at this time in West Germany that specialists from the well-known company Rheinmetall-Industrie-GmbH (Düsseldorf) developed a promising automat, designated RH-70. This machine from the company Rheinmetall had a bullpup layout, but he was not lucky enough to go into the series, and he remained an experimental model.

Experimental Rheinmetall RH-70 Assault Rifle


The bolt of this assault rifle was semi-free with roller braking. Open sighting devices on the weapon was not. The rifle scope, which was built into the grip used to carry the assault rifle, was to be used as a standard. The weapons were powered using a detachable magazine with a single-row arrangement of cartridges (on 30 cartridges). The box of the machine was made of wood.

The Rheinmetall RH-70 assault rifle was designed as a weapon for testing the bullpup concept, which is gaining popularity, and was designed for the low-pulse cartridge 5,56x45 NATO. The machine gun was considered as a possible replacement for the HK G3 caliber 7,62 mm, which was already in service with the Bundeswehr. Due to the use of the bullpup scheme, the total length of the Rheinmetall RH-70 submachine gun was reduced by 235 mm compared to the G3 automat. At the same time, in the development of the Rheinmetall concern, the barrel was longer on the 20 mm and the weight of the weapon was more than on the 1 kg.

Despite the novelty and a number of good characteristics, the Rheinmetall RH-70 submachine gun was not considered by representatives of the defense department as a possible standard weapon for the German army. The assault rifle was not accepted for arming the army, nor were the plans to put the machine into service with the German police special forces units. One of the significant shortcomings for the army machine was its very long single-row magazine for 30 cartridges.

Technical characteristics of Rheinmetall RH-70:
Automatic caliber - 5,56 mm.
Overall length - 790 mm.
Barrel length - 470 mm.
Weight - 3,28 kg.
Shop - on 30 cartridges, single row.
The initial speed of the bullet - 940 m / s.

Information sources:
http://www.dogswar.ru/oryjeinaia-ekzotika/strelkovoe-oryjie/1524-opytnyi-avtomat-rhei.html
http://weapon.at.ua/load/290-1-0-852
http://weapon.at.ua/publ/14-1-0-119
http://www.megasword.ru/index.php?pg=1107
Author:
56 comments
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  1. avt
    avt 10 November 2014 09: 59
    +1
    For the English, they did something like a shotgun. Although, in fairness, it should be noted that Hekler Koch tried there.
    1. padonok.71
      padonok.71 10 November 2014 10: 50
      +4
      Are you talking about L80? If yes, then the Angles invented it themselves, well, as they themselves - looked at AP18 and "invented" it. And all the way toiled with her. Then, in the 2000s, their patience ran out, they turned to H&K and they upgraded it to L80A2. And only then the rifle began to play. This is how the proud Britons turned around, once again proving to the whole world that they couldn't do without the "nasty boshes". Only proud (it is not clear only what).
      1. avt
        avt 10 November 2014 19: 26
        +1
        Quote: padonok.71
        Speech about the L80? If so, then the Angles invented it themselves,

        They came up with it and did it, and then they invited the Germans and they already brought it to mind, so that only the bullpup remained from the original design laughing and she became 85, so they still run with her.
        1. padonok.71
          padonok.71 11 November 2014 13: 33
          0
          Well, at the moment, she's not bad at all. Compact, convenient, lightweight and easy to control, you can hang a lot of things. But of course there are also disadvantages: reliability (well, no AK, let's say) and "general plush".
  2. padonok.71
    padonok.71 10 November 2014 10: 33
    0
    Beautiful - only the store spoils everything. Above the barrel or under the barrel there would be beauty. And at the expense of some "roughness" - this is a prototype, with them it is always like that, there is a bolt, there is welding, this is normal.
    1. bazilio
      bazilio 10 November 2014 17: 58
      +2
      They said about the advantages of the bulpap, but forgot about the minuses - the store is not only because of the length to minus. Imagine how it feels to reload a bulpap in a prone position ... well, as usual, there is increased gas contamination near the shooter's face, in some models of bulpups the sleeves also fly out very close to the face, therefore they can fall into the arm, etc.
  3. bionik
    bionik 10 November 2014 11: 09
    +4
    After the Second World War, the designer-gunsmith German Aleksandrovich Korobov took part in the competition for new small arms for the SA, with his development of the TKB-408 chambered for 7,62x39mm. But the machine was not accepted, the legendary AK-47 went into the series.
    1. bionik
      bionik 10 November 2014 11: 22
      +1
      In the early 60s, Korobov returned to the development of bullpup machines, and introduced three models of the TKB-022 machine
      1. bionik
        bionik 10 November 2014 11: 25
        +1
        Another TKB-022
        1. bionik
          bionik 10 November 2014 11: 27
          +1
          In the photo without a store
          1. bionik
            bionik 10 November 2014 11: 42
            0
            PARDON top photo TKB 454-43
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 10 November 2014 12: 21
              0
              Quote: bionik
              PARDON top photo TKB 454-43

              No, everything is correct on the top photo 408, and 454-43 appeared later and had a traditional line-up.
              Well, we divide the palm of primacy according to the bulpap scheme - we have TKB-408 they have EM-1 and EM-2 - all at about the same time 1944-1949 - independently of each other.
  4. gross kaput
    gross kaput 10 November 2014 12: 24
    +1
    British crafts
  5. padonok.71
    padonok.71 10 November 2014 12: 28
    0
    Yes, German Aleksandrovich is a genius, and with all my immense respect for Mikhail Timofeevich, as a designer, as an innovator, an inventor, he put him on "both shoulder blades." Applied to TKB-022 No. 1 (above), for all the "monstrosity" - even convenient. Even considering my dislike for "buns".
    1. Angro Magno
      Angro Magno 10 November 2014 19: 17
      +1
      I do not know. I can’t say anything about the design, not a specialist. But they look like a freak.
    2. Angro Magno
      Angro Magno 10 November 2014 19: 17
      0
      That reminded me.

      [img]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSJKkj08VP3MRKQCDAFRYH21c-JX5emU2A
      tVXYw5i7b_QQH1wC [/ img]
      1. padonok.71
        padonok.71 11 November 2014 08: 51
        +1
        Yes, I agree, it looks scary (especially NN 1 and 3), but for the sake of fairness it should be noted that the cars, for rolls, are applied.
  6. padonok.71
    padonok.71 10 November 2014 12: 31
    +1
    And here is the Bull in incomplete analysis.
  7. padonok.71
    padonok.71 10 November 2014 12: 39
    +3
    This place is something vaguely reminiscent of. Something is German, I would even say the Terereich what
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 10 November 2014 12: 41
      +2
      It vaguely reminds you of FG-42, only FG-42 is "not up to bullpup".
      1. 290980
        290980 10 November 2014 13: 07
        +2
        Quote: gross kaput
        FG-42, it vaguely reminds you, only fg-42


        good paddle

        1. bionik
          bionik 10 November 2014 13: 10
          0
          Only the store from the left, on 10 and 20 rounds.
  8. bionik
    bionik 10 November 2014 13: 07
    0
    Belgian assault rifle (prototype No. 3) under the 7x43 mm cartridge created (approximately 1950-52 year) during the development of the FN FAL. It is noteworthy that almost all the leading countries of the world in the production and design of small arms in the middle of the century approached the bullpup scheme, but did not take them into service. And they returned already closer to 80-90 years.
  9. padonok.71
    padonok.71 10 November 2014 14: 26
    +1
    Quote: gross kaput
    FG-42, it vaguely reminds you,
    Why did you say yes? I knew what you knew. I wanted to see others, but you took it and ruined everything :-).
    Quote: gross kaput
    only fg-42 all the same "not up to bullpup
    And what did I say that? Well, all the same the rudiments of "bullpapism" are available.
    Quote: 290980
    good paddle
    Controversial, very controversial. Especially for the Fallschirmers.
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 10 November 2014 15: 07
      +1
      Quote: padonok.71
      Why did you say yes? I knew what you knew. I wanted to see others, but you took it and ruined everything :-).

      repeat Well, somehow she escaped.
      Quote: padonok.71
      And what did I say that?

      You are not - and I am, yes, without a doubt they would have made it for the Kurts would have been a bulpap, and because of the long chamber it turned out what happened.
      Quote: 290980
      good paddle
      - For igrodelov laughing
      And so an elegant solution to a non-existent problem brought to the absurd by the gloomy Teutonic genius laughing
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex 10 November 2014 15: 20
        +1
        Quote: gross kaput
        repeat Well, somehow she escaped.
        Quote: padonok.71
        And what did I say that?

        You are not - and I am, yes, without a doubt they would have made it for the Kurts would have been a bulpap, and because of the long chamber it turned out what happened. - For igrodelov laughing
        And so an elegant solution to a non-existent problem brought to the absurd by the gloomy Teutonic genius laughing


        And why do bul-dads so that the store sticks out of the butt into the ground and for the inconvenience of changing the store? Rather, the Germans were guided by practical considerations and a lack of understanding of what they were doing did not suffer.

        Bull dads later came into fashion. And the bulldozer layout perfectly allows the rifle cartridge to be digested, and even more powerful, such as .50BMG:
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 10 November 2014 22: 04
          +1
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          And the bulldozer layout perfectly allows the rifle cartridge to be digested, and even more powerful, such as .50BMG:

          You can digest and construct a lot, but, here's the sadness, talk about FG42 and with the same design of the movable system, the magazine for a rifle cartridge, well, does not fit for the pistol grip, or else the distance from the back of the head to the trigger would have to be made too large, and it was not they have a terrible desire to create "the world's first bullpup" - they simply fulfilled the conditions of the TTZ. The length of no more than a meter, the mass of no more than 98K, the standard rifle and machine gun cartridge 7,92X57, so the horizontal arrangement of the store is not the fruit of a perverse Teutonic genius to prevent sticking into the ground (yes, there is nothing special to stick with - a stub for 20 rounds) but simply the most rational scheme based on the specified performance characteristics and the chosen scheme of automation. What would have happened to remake the Germans in 1942. several "Herat 450" chambered for 7,92X33 (and such a proposal based on the results of tests of the first fg-42 in July 1942) can only be guessed at, but I think it would be something similar to the Brit's EM-2, designed clearly under the influence of FG-42 ...
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex 10 November 2014 23: 19
            +1
            Quote: gross kaput
            Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
            And the bulldozer layout perfectly allows the rifle cartridge to be digested, and even more powerful, such as .50BMG:

            You can digest and construct a lot, but, here's the sadness, talk about FG42 and with the same design of the movable system, the magazine for a rifle cartridge, well, does not fit for the pistol grip, or else the distance from the back of the head to the trigger would have to be made too large, and it was not they have a terrible desire to create "the world's first bullpup" - they simply fulfilled the conditions of the TTZ. The length of no more than a meter, the mass of no more than 98K, the standard rifle and machine gun cartridge 7,92X57, so the horizontal arrangement of the store is not the fruit of a perverse Teutonic genius to prevent sticking into the ground (yes, there is nothing special to stick with - a stub for 20 rounds) but simply the most rational scheme based on the specified performance characteristics and the chosen scheme of automation. What would have happened to remake the Germans in 1942. several "Herat 450" chambered for 7,92X33 (and such a proposal based on the results of tests of the first fg-42 in July 1942) can only be guessed at, but I think it would be something similar to the Brit's EM-2, designed clearly under the influence of FG-42 ...


            It is obvious smile

            The Germans did not need a bulpap, it is less convenient to handle than FG42. Do you agree? Well, they would have won a little more in length, and the gas outlet would climb up - which is not very good, and if left below, then hemorrhoids. The Germans always had a design school. These are not Englishmen who cannot move beyond the bolt bolt of a magazine rifle without assistance.
            Germany, Austria, Belgium, Czechs are arms states. Italians still occasionally get something. Not many countries in the world have such weapons traditions and schools.
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 10 November 2014 23: 46
              +1
              The Italians only make good guns and sometimes pistols, and everything else is somehow not very good, if we look at their rifle shooting through the prism of their monster-like structures of the early to mid-20th century, then the weapons business in the field of combat shooting has stepped in front of them, but compared with the main manufacturers it’s somehow gray at best for the C grade.
              And if you compare the design of their cars - all kinds of Ferrari, Lamborghini and others with their own crafts in the field of combat shooting, then how beautiful their cars are and how poor the machines are.
    2. 290980
      290980 11 November 2014 01: 19
      +2
      Quote: padonok.71
      Controversial, very controversial. Especially for the Fallschirmers.

      Well why? an intermediate cartridge is still in development, MPEkhovsky is rather weak, so they made a vinar for falshimers who can be naughty in bursts. Judging by the tests, he shot perfectly ... the likeness of the MG42 in the light version with less ammunition laughing

      1. padonok.71
        padonok.71 11 November 2014 09: 21
        0
        Precisely as a weapon, FG is not a bad option. Although there were also enough shortcomings. Because of the "double-circuit" chamber, it is impossible to use steel sleeves (only brass), in 30% of cases, they vomited longitudinally and, as a result, burnout of the chamber, wedges of automation. It wasn't on brass, but war. The muzzle tube illuminated the shooter with its exhaust. The annular rear sight was blurred due to the non-optimal installation. Miracle bayonet. Problems with the bipod, optics mount, etc. But it was all removable. And discernible.
        The problem is that the paratroopers didn't need it. It did not fit precisely in tactics. I don’t want to paint it long and tediously, just believe me. And the Wehrmacht showed much more interest in the FG than the Luffers. Which by the way licked their lips towards StG. But there Goering's "graters" with OKH, OPV - in short, until the end of the war, so the phallers were washed away with them. What they wrote about in their memoirs. And he personally spoke with one of these figures, he confirms, although he was no longer a senile decent at that moment - before talking twice, the luftmarch sang with him.
  10. gross kaput
    gross kaput 10 November 2014 16: 04
    0
    What kind of person are you like that ?! If you quote - then quote as it was printed - and so combine the two sentences related to different things into one whole.
    Quote: gross kaput
    - For igrodelov
    And so an elegant solution to a non-existent problem brought to the absurd by the gloomy Teutonic genius

    This proposal is not related to the FG-42 lineup, but refers to the general concept of its appearance.
  11. padonok.71
    padonok.71 10 November 2014 19: 17
    +2
    Well, no, they had a problem, and even a lot. Units of jumpers are few in number, there is nothing to strengthen the unit, STG is all in the Wehrmacht. But I want to increase the density and range, but nothing. Walters, frankly, not very, MG is good but voracious, and he doesn’t get into tactics. That’s why they got hungry.
    And these parachutes are also killer. Yes goering addict in leggings.
    In short, Hofnungschlosegkand-Aless!
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 10 November 2014 22: 16
      0
      Quote: padonok.71
      Yes goering addict in leggings.
      laughing
      Yeah, they intensified - either a rifle, a handbrake, or a sniper so it’s also necessary to bayonet a bayonet, you could even throw a grenade into an adversary, and as a result, jumpers could take MP-43 into service and be satisfied happy - well, so no, but Goering wanted to show off. Due to the perversity of the FG-42 fantasy, only the Japanese managed to surpass the Type 64 rifle, with its automatic transition to shooting from the rear scribble when the chamber was heated to a certain temperature - well, with the Japanese everything is clear - the edge of the samurai, godzil and anime - there, by definition, perversions should be the norm.
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex 11 November 2014 02: 54
        0
        Quote: gross kaput
        Quote: padonok.71
        Yes goering addict in leggings.
        laughing
        Yeah, they intensified - either a rifle, a handbrake, or a sniper so it’s also necessary to bayonet a bayonet, you could even throw a grenade into an adversary, and as a result, jumpers could take MP-43 into service and be satisfied happy - well, so no, but Goering wanted to show off. Due to the perversity of the FG-42 fantasy, only the Japanese managed to surpass the Type 64 rifle, with its automatic transition to shooting from the rear scribble when the chamber was heated to a certain temperature - well, with the Japanese everything is clear - the edge of the samurai, godzil and anime - there, by definition, perversions should be the norm.



        And what is the actual "perversity"? Automatic fire is better to conduct from the rear sear, and single with the shutter closed.
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 11 November 2014 10: 24
          0
          Perversity in trying to put together a light machine gun, a self-loading and sniper rifle under a rifle cartridge, and even shorter and no heavier than a regular car98.
          As a result, it’s not fish, not meat, with a sophisticated design that is sensitive to ammunition, and, like all the universal functions of all three types of weapons, it can perform far from full-fledged samples of handbrains and rifles.
          This applies to FG, and with regards to the Japanese, it doesn’t make sense at all, so the Yapes did not create a machine gun or a universal shooter, but an assault rifle for which it is generally difficult to heat up the chamber to self-ignition, because they do not pour out 20 rounds of rounds from them, it’s not considering that the Yapovsky chamber only in geometry copies 7,62X51 and in terms of characteristics it will be weaker than hell. So if there was such a problem, shooting from the rear whisper in the auto fire was done both on the M-14 and on the G3 and on the FAL. Well, however, no such a bright idea occurred to only lovers of sushi and hara-kiri.
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex 11 November 2014 14: 52
            0
            A serious problem with this gun is the rifle cartridge that is too powerful for this class of weapon. Therefore, a gun came out for Superman, and not for a freelance soldier, who would simply be physically difficult to deal with when shooting bursts. But FG-42 was armed only with the elite, and only the best and most trained shooters selected from this very elite:



            This is what this "blaster blaster" does in the hands of ordinary shooters:





            Monetchikov (again this surname wink ) a separate article dedicated to this automatic rifle:

            http://www.bratishka.ru/archiv/2002/6/2002_6_4.php
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 11 November 2014 17: 13
              0
              the first video smiled - after the words that the fg-42 were used "mainly in Crete" the level of "expert" immediately becomes clear.
              This is not a bad article on FG
              1. Major_Vortex
                Major_Vortex 11 November 2014 18: 09
                0
                Quote: gross kaput
                the first video smiled - after the words that the fg-42 were used "mainly in Crete" the level of "expert" immediately becomes clear.
                This is not a bad article on FG


                This is a translation from English. And the man, most likely an expert on weapons of some kind, not a historian. He sets out the features of the rifle correctly, taking into account the features of the translation. These are the first decent videos on YouTube that I came across.
                1. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 11 November 2014 18: 33
                  0
                  So there is no translation, Crete is mentioned there three times, all that he sets out on a rifle is only about shooting from the open / closed shutter and folding sighting, but everything else is pretty crazy - for example, the FG-42 served as a prototype of modern assault rifles and thanks to She appeared such samples as STG44, AK and M-16.
                  PS
                  Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                  And man, most likely an expert on weapons of some kind,
                  Duc, the problem is that the weapons expert may not be a historian in the broad sense of the word, but the basics of what after and how he appeared cannot be known - this is the basis without an expert.
                  1. Major_Vortex
                    Major_Vortex 11 November 2014 18: 50
                    0
                    With the advent of a rifle cartridge with a low recoil momentum, interest in such weapons naturally disappeared. And so, the Germans released a very interesting combination of self-loading and a light machine gun in one bottle, compact and light, and chose a fairly rational layout for their weapon model, as it seems to me.

                    Most likely, there are no Fedorov assault rifles in America. Therefore, in the film FG42 appears as the forefather of modern assault rifles and automatic rifles. Little historical inaccuracy.
                    1. gross kaput
                      gross kaput 11 November 2014 20: 36
                      0
                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      With the advent of a rifle cartridge with a small recoil momentum, interest in such weapons naturally disappeared.

                      Are you serious? work on the intermediate cartridge in Germany has been carried out since the early 30s, the first av. a carbine for an intermediate cartridge appeared at the Doychev in 1935 - the Volmer M35. In 1938, the Polte company received an order for the development of a new "intermediate" cartridge in 1940, which became famous 7,92X33, and the Henel company, in the same 1938, received an order for the development of an ICD with an effective firing range of up to 400 m under the developed cartridge, in 1940, "Walter" joined them with its developments. As a result, by the time when Shtange was 42 in the fall. made the first sketches of the "Herat 450" Walter and Henelevsky MKB already underwent military trials on the eastern front. Based on the above, the FG-42 that appeared later than the attack could not have been "early" of it, besides this, she could not be a "Yevon mother" since it was created for completely different requirements and conceptually belongs to the class of ed. rifles in which it is far from the very first - many have experimented with them - remember at least our ABC and AVT only in all countries by 1942 had long understood that firing bursts from a rifle chambered for a standard rifle cartridge is nonsense, and in the end we limited ourselves purely self-charging.
                      1. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 11 November 2014 21: 04
                        0
                        Malya was mistaken, forgivably wrote from memory - "Herat 450" began development in December 1941 by this time the final version of the 7,92X33 cartridge had already been worked out and "Hanel" had already started preparing the serial production of its MKB for military trials, and Walter was already running in her experimental MKB built on the basis of its own self-loading rifle A115.
                      2. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 11 November 2014 22: 13
                        0
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Are you serious?


                        According to one of the terms of reference, the FG42 was created under a cartridge of 7,92 × 57 mm.

                        For the development of historical memory: the 1913 Fedorov assault rifle, the 6,5 × 50 mm cartridge Arisaka, which was used in it - 1897, was created generally for a magazine rifle. The well-known AK-47 began to enter the Soviet troops in service from the middle of 1949, was equipped with a cartridge of the 1943 model (as is believed).

                        Not everyone in the world took it like this in one day, and switched to a new cartridge and weapons for it. Although, they switched to low-pulse cartridges in the end, all more or less modern in their equipment, the peace army. Do you agree?

                        Another interesting fact, demonstrating a complete mess with cartridges and calibers in the middle of the 20th century: Americans played with feathered subcaliber bullets almost until the 60s, and believed that the future weapons of the American soldier would shoot with just such ammunition or even more unusual and fantastic. While the light American self-loading carbine M-1 under the cartridge of 7,62 × 33 mm began to enter the American army back in 1941. The world-famous automatic rifle M-16, designed by Eugene Stoner, appeared only in the 60s.
                      3. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 12 November 2014 00: 35
                        0
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Are you serious?

                        I mean that the FG-42 cannot be considered a machine gun in any way, since it is an automatic rifle built on a not quite standard theme, and even more so it cannot be the ancestor of "STG, AK and M-16" as stated in the video.
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        For the development of historical memory: Fedorov rifle of 1913, a 6,5 × 50 mm cartridge Arisaka, which was used in it - 1897, was created generally for a magazine rifle

                        Error on error - Fedorov's "automatic" was created under a cartridge of his own design 6,5X57 with an initial bullet speed of 850 m / s and an energy of about 3100 J, which is slightly less than the standard three-line of that period - 3600J. It was hastily remade for arisaka in 1916, and the large dimensions of the Fedorovsky cartridge case made it possible to remake the chambers with little blood - using an insert. Fedorov himself did not try to develop a cartridge of less power than a rifle one, he only advocated a decrease in caliber from 7,62 to 6,5 (which by the way was very popular at that time, a handful of small-caliber Mauser cartridges would be typed) as he considered it more optimal for rifles - so how such a cartridge with the same effective firing ranges had lower recoil and better flatness. With the name "automatic" in general in those days was leapfrog, automatic, quite officially called the Fedorov rifle (NSD 1927) and submachine guns
                        (NSD 1938 submachine gun PPD and instruction 1941 according to PPSh machine arr.
                        41) moreover, submachine guns up to 1955 (NSD according to the teaching staff of 1955) quite officially calls it a submachine gun with a postscript in parentheses of the submachine gun.
                        And Fedorov himself in his works calls his brainchild either an automatic rifle or an automatic machine.
                        So, in order not to get confused, it is easier and more understandable to use the modern concept of the word "machine gun" - as the main weapon of an infantryman, chambered for less power than a rifle cartridge, with an effective range of single-shot up to 500-600m, and due to the presence of a capacious magazine and an automatic mode that allows you to create high density of fire at short and medium distances, while having a weight less than that of the author. rifles and, due to the smaller mass of the cartridge, having a larger wearable ammunition (look at the TTZ at the 1946-47 competition and everything will immediately become clear).
                      4. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 12 November 2014 01: 18
                        0
                        Not Photoshop:
                      5. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 12 November 2014 12: 23
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                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Error on error ...

                        I don’t see, even kill No.

                        § 14. PULSE OF THE BODY. CLOSED SYSTEMS. Law of conservation of momentum:

                        http://kaf-fiz-1586.narod.ru/10bf/uchebnik/14.htm
                      6. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 12 November 2014 12: 54
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                        Errors on the history of Fedorov’s rifle and the general concept of his idea — Fedorov’s rifle arr. - There is no point in repeating the reasons and history of this rework.
                        Now regarding the concept - and here the fundamental difference between Fedorov's idea and the modern domestic concept of an assault rifle - Fedorov wanted to reduce the mass of the cartridge and the recoil momentum by reducing the caliber of the rifle cartridge and the recoil impulse, while maintaining the effective fire with bursts of light weapons, hence the legs grow and the proposal to produce "Fedorov assault rifles" in a self-loading version with the issuance of parts for alteration into fully automatic ones only to the best shooters. The modern concept of the assault rifle has a fundamentally different approach - the RIFLE RANGE is not needed for it and is limited to an effective range of 400-500m - for firing at long ranges there are other types of weapons, while the automatic mode is considered as the main one, in accordance with this, not just the caliber is reduced cartridge and its effective range, which accordingly gives a gain in weight and weapons and B / C, and also allows you to control light weapons with auth. fire.
                        PS I am extremely surprised that I have to explain such basics to you.
                      7. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 12 November 2014 13: 17
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                        I’m writing in popular scientific language, to be short and to the point. I also know the history of what you saw in the discussion of the history of the creation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle.

                        You will not deny the direct connection of the impulse, which is a measure of the mechanical motion of the body with its mass? Links with formulas I gave above. School formulas.

                        About 500-600 m effective range at the Fedorov assault rifle, we can only talk about group targets, given the type of automation used by this weapon. Not everything is as sweet as you try to present.
                      8. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 12 November 2014 15: 42
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                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        About 500-600 m effective range at the Fedorov assault rifle, we can only talk about group targets, given the type of automation used by this weapon. Not everything is as sweet as you try to present.

                        Do you know how to read or do you have a chronic "Chukchi not a reader but a writer"? SPECIALLY I WILL SEPARATE AS ONLY AS POSSIBLE - FEDOROV'S AUTOMATIC RIFLE IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC MODE IN THE MODERN CONCEPT OF THIS TERM AS SO CREATED UNDER THE SCREW OF A SCREW BALLAST.
                      9. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 12 November 2014 16: 14
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                        I write at work in fits and starts - the Fedorov assault rifle in concept can be compared to the BAR - which was born as an automatic rifle and eventually became a handbrake. The first full-fledged automatic rifles can be called the automatic rifle of Ribeirole chambered for 8x35 SR (do you feel the difference between Fedorovskiy 6,5X57 and Rebeirol'skiy 8X35?), And then work began in Switzerland, Denmark, Italy and finally in Germany, ending with the appearance of the first large-scale machine MP-43 / STG- 44. Well, the Fedorov rifle became "the world's first submachine gun" already in the 60s, the prerequisites for this were two factors - leapfrog with the classification of the rifle in the USSR in the 20-40s and the desire to "rot and rot" and be sure to be the "homeland of elephants" - how just trying to explain it so immediately such a high rises! as if we have few areas in which we really were the first - the same Taubin automatic grenade launcher - but no, our patriots for some reason only remember that "the first tank and the first machine gun are ours!"
                        PS By the way, it was recalled that before the stoner, Johnson used a rotary shutter with locking with 8 fighting stops for the barrel clutch in the 30s, as a result of which the UMP used the self-loading rifle and handbrake of the 1941 model during WWII.
                      10. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 12 November 2014 21: 23
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                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Do you know how to read or do you have a chronic "Chukchi not a reader but a writer"? SPECIALLY I WILL SEPARATE AS ONLY AS POSSIBLE - FEDOROV'S AUTOMATIC RIFLE IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC MODE IN THE MODERN CONCEPT OF THIS TERM AS SO CREATED UNDER THE SCREW OF A SCREW BALLAST.


                        Do modern cartridges used in automatic rifles really have poor ballistics? .223Rem take - on it a mass of models and conventional hunting bolt rifles are produced. Yes, and it was developed as a rifle, if my memory serves me.

                        The desire to shoot further away, and more precisely, and along a more direct ballistic trajectory from a modern automatic rifle or automatic rifle, is limited only by reasonable recoil energies for this class of light automatic small arms and the ammunition used in it.
                        The smaller mass of the small-caliber cartridge with a shorter and correspondingly light sleeve is another indisputable advantage of such ammunition, as it allows the soldier to carry more ammunition, which is crucial in modern combat.

                        True, reducing the caliber to less than 5,5-5,6 mm in most cases is unjustified. Infinitely reducing the mass of the cartridge itself also does not work out due to physical quantities.

                        All these questions were carefully considered and studied in the second half of the 20th century. And it’s already the 21st century ...
                      11. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 13 November 2014 13: 35
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                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        Take the 223Rem - on it are a ton of models and conventional hunting bolt rifles are produced.

                        Yes, no doubt, so the only problem is that the conversation is about military weapons and not hunting - where rifles do not shoot in bursts, and depending on the intended goals, they can be from .22 short to .600 Nitro Express.
                      12. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 13 November 2014 15: 05
                        0
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        Take the 223Rem - on it are a ton of models and conventional hunting bolt rifles are produced.

                        Yes, no doubt, so the only problem is that the conversation is about military weapons and not hunting - where rifles do not shoot in bursts, and depending on the intended goals, they can be from .22 short to .600 Nitro Express.


                        The .223Rem is nothing more than the 5,56x45mm NATO cartridge. Quite a live cartridge. Don't get confused. There is a lot of information on it in the public domain. And it belongs just to the "22" caliber.
                      13. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 13 November 2014 22: 11
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                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        223Rem is nothing more than a 5,56 × 45 mm NATO cartridge

                        Really ?! and how am I orphan not even aware of this ?! laughing
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        . It’s quite a live cartridge

                        For what? for a machine gun / machine gun or for
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        a mass of models and conventional hunting bolt rifles are available.

                        So you are confused, my post did not specifically concern this cartridge, but the fact that hundreds of different cartridges and a huge number of HUNTING rifles of calibers from minimum .22 shorts to .600 nitro express are produced for hunting purposes what is considered a rifle cartridge in the hunting ones will not always satisfy the military’s requirements specifically for the army rifle-machine gun, the same 223 example for machine guns is just right, but for sniper rifles or machine guns it is too weak.
                        PS
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        .223Rem is nothing more than a 5,56 × 45 mm NATO cartridge.
                        - Teach the materiel it’s different cartridges, although 5,56X45 is based on .223 remington and even though partially interchangeable, it’s highly not recommended to shoot weapons under the .223 NATO cartridge.
                      14. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 13 November 2014 23: 19
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                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        223Rem is nothing more than a 5,56 × 45 mm NATO cartridge

                        Really ?! and how am I orphan not even aware of this ?! laughing


                        Besides Wikipedia, it would not hurt you to look into other, more competent sources. And then, for all the time of communication with you, I had the impression that I communicate on Wikipedia laughing

                        Here is Monetchikov, whom you apparently read in a greatly reduced form (if you read at all) and about the Korobov assault rifles, FAMAS and the results of the contest, where Korobov won the AKM from Izhevsk, writes:

                        http://www.bratishka.ru/archiv/2003/4/2003_4_8.php

                        Although, in the book that I gave you, everything is described in even more detail and detail. That's why she is a book.

                        Tie up with Wikipedia. There is truth in relation to the des 50/50. Especially regarding our story. But trolling on the Internet does not need much intelligence.
  12. padonok.71
    padonok.71 11 November 2014 13: 49
    0
    Quote: gross kaput
    such a bright thought occurred to only lovers of sushi and hara-kiri.
    The Czechs still on the PP something like this (based on a bimetallic pusher tongue) but did not fence it off. Right now I’m far from home and I definitely can’t see. From my memory only - CH, year - 70s, 9 pairs, I took the faculty as the base, I don’t remember anything more. AND! and another test was stolen after a couple of punctures on the open shutter and in my opinion someone else was crippled. I won’t say anything more.
  13. Nechmad
    Nechmad April 11 2015 13: 36
    0
    Thanks, of course, to the author for the article, however, taking pictures without asking the author is somehow ugly.