SPM-1 "Tiger" or Iveco LMV: what is bad Italian armored car?

237
SPM-1 "Tiger" or Iveco LMV: what is bad Italian armored car?


The argument over which armored car - SPM-1 Tiger or Iveco LMV is more suitable for specific Russian conditions, and whether ex-minister Anatoly Serdyukov was right to buy foreign armored vehicles, has not subsided so far.

Armored protection

You need to start with the main thing - armor protection, because these machines are just created to save the life of the crew. Russian specialists conducted IVECO shelling of B-32 armor-piercing incendiary bullets using a 7,62x54 ballistic caliber. It is from such ammunition manufacturer guaranteed full protection for the third level STANAG 4569 (it corresponds to the Russian 6 class of ballistic protection according to GOST R 50963-96). The fire was conducted from different distances to various places of the car: the joints of armored panels, the edges of the glass - in order to find vulnerability. On the first day, 150 shots were fired, on the second, on the order of 60. No breakthrough was achieved. And this is without additional armor.



And what about the "Tiger"? According to official press releases, everything is very good, the crew has nothing to fear. But in life a little differently. In the LiveJournal blog, which is maintained by a special forces officer under the nickname k_a_r_d_e_n, there is an interesting record about Tiger’s armor protection. Employees at the arrival of the car in the unit conducted a traditional check for bulletproof.



The shelling was made from AK74M standard cartridge PP (7H10). The bullet pierced the board, the core of the bullet pierced the ballistic package and made a dent on the rear door trim. And this is just 5,45! ... Also, the fighters were not pleased with the lack of bonnet booking. It turns out that a few bullets in the engine compartment is enough to immobilize the car.







Another plus of the Italian armored car is the mounted armor set, which protects against large-caliber bullets up to 14,5 mm, however, then it becomes less mobile. For Tigra, such a booking is impossible - the car simply will not budge - the suspension from the suspension will not withstand the load.

However, there is one curious detail, the Iveco LMV ceramic armor is made by the German company Barat Ceramics, which assembles it into a panel according to the shape of the part and sends it to the Italians. Cheaper car production is not conducive.

Mine protection

The LMV M65 IVECO protection technology involves the creation of a separate armored capsule for the habitable compartment, which is equipped with a ceramic ballistic protection attached to the metal frame, standard armor panels and armored glass. The ribs are a special tubular frame. The explosion energy is gradually extinguished by ceramic protection, a two-layer bottom, frame struts, a roof, and a suspension system. The seats of the crew members of the vehicle through the suspension system receive a significantly weakened impulse of acceleration, which does not exceed the medical overload rate for a person.



According to the designers, the LMV M65 IVECO can withstand blasting on a mine with a capacity of up to 8 kg of TNT. In fact, it turned out that the safety margin of the machine is much greater. For example, 14 on April 2010 of the year in the area of ​​Ludina, 20-30 km north of Kala-i-Nau (Afghanistan), LMV M65 hit a homemade mine with a TNT equivalent of about 20 kg. No dead, only wounded and contused.


During 10 years of operation in combat, 10 machines were undermined, and only two people were killed and three Spanish soldiers (26.06.2011, Afghanistan) were injured in a side explosion of a TNT equivalent 120.


And what about the "Tiger"? Its creators say with confidence that the machine can withstand an explosion on an explosive device with a capacity of ... 200 g. This is equivalent to a hand grenade. It turns out that the mine protection in the "Tiger", as such, and no.

Fuel consumption / throughput

Fuel consumption in the war, you see, is also an important thing. So, Tiger has an average of about 40 l / 100 km with a mass of 6-7 tons, which is enough for 350 km. For comparison: an unregulated BTR-80 with a mass of 12-15 tons consumes the same 40-60 l / 100 km! By the way, this was one of the reasons for the abandonment of the car of the representatives of the United Arab Emirates. Even for them it was too much.



IVECO spends about 15 l / 100 km with a power reserve of 500 km. As for the video, where IVECO on the virgin snow lags behind Russian armored vehicles, let us explain: the first copies purchased in Italy are not suitable for winter operation, their equipment did not include snow protection and chains on wheels that are available on similar army machines Norway and Austria. A wide bumper when driving in deep snow created the effect of a heel, pushing a snowdrift ahead of IVECO, which led to a significant slowdown. The car is not elm, but it was hard, jerky.



By the way, the same field tests showed that the passability of the "Tiger" is very doubtful, and it is good if there is a KamAZ nearby.


The photo "Tiger" sat on the bottom of the layers of packed snow, the car lost its driving characteristics


In addition, often in the dignity of the Russian armored car is recorded a spacious fighting compartment. Like, in the troop compartment can comfortably accommodate six soldiers in full gear ... And the photos and you can not tell.





However, in the Russian conditions of operation, Iveco LMV has revealed a dangerous enemy - the army diesel fuel, which the Italian diesel engine sharpened by EURO 3 perceives more as a poison than fuel.

Well, when choosing an armored car often look at the price, but here the "Tiger" out of competition. According to information from open sources, the Italian armored car costs 20-23 million Russian rubles per unit, the Tiger costs about 5 million rubles. And until the controversy surrounding this car dies down, the Iveco LMV has already adopted 11 countries, the Italian armored car was run-in in several military conflicts, where it earned positive marks from the army team.
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237 comments
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  1. +14
    8 November 2014 07: 47
    If there is a need for this type of machine, then why? buy, if you can produce it yourself for the needs of the army and special forces, it’s good that the military industry is well established, because to give an order to the same UAZ and let them collect and make and not spend money buying imported and letting them earn money, there China is successfully copying and there’s nothing even and do not blush? why can't we, or our military-industrial complex, follow the same path, using their example and base, to create the best and ours?
    1. +4
      8 November 2014 13: 15
      Quote: Fantazer911
      won china successfully copies and nothing, do not even hesitate and do not blush

      So after all, ours, having bought the right to manufacture a certain amount of Iveco, got the opportunity to manufacture these machines, but! There are a couple of very big restrictions. A number of components and assemblies cannot be easily copied. They must be supplied by the manufacturer under the contract. E he, maybe from anywhere, but not from Italy. Plus, sanctions introduced against Russia. They simply prohibit all these deliveries. Therefore, the article is completely untimely, and out of place, it seems that the authors propose to bend Russia to the West.
      Yes. Iveco has some advantages, the Tiger has others. Especially in the price. By the way. On YouTube, there was a video in which Iveco refused to navigate through the obstacles that the Tiger went through. Iveco traveled simply and easily.
      1. 0
        8 November 2014 13: 35
        Quote: Hedgehog
        Therefore, the article is completely untimely, and out of place, it seems that the authors propose to bend Russia to the West.

        Generally, by a strong-willed decision of Shoigu, supplies of "Ryssey" to the troops were stopped at the very beginning of his reign. He knew why Serdyukov was thrown off, and he preferred not to run into children like Deripaska.

        True, he promised comparative tests ... But forever, he does not have enough time. Yes, and Arzamas still can not present his car for undermining tests ...
        1. +4
          8 November 2014 15: 00
          it’s true, because it’s not enough that the compromising person will draw on Shoigu himself, in connection with his work in the Ministry of Emergencies
          1. +8
            8 November 2014 17: 01
            .... Fuel consumption in a war, you see, is also an important thing. So, the "Tiger" has an average of about 40 l / 100 km with a mass of 6-7 tons, this is enough for 350 km ...

            I wonder where the author of the article takes such data?
            Of course, if you measure the fuel consumption of a machine that goes through a swamp, with the consumption of a machine that went along asphalt, the result will clearly not be in favor of the first.
            According to the passport (http://www.amz.ru/produktsiya/grazhdanskiy-tigr/) power reserve "Tiger" 900 km.
            SPM-2 "Tiger" GAZ-233036 (6400kg)
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%90%D0%97-2330_%C2%AB%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%B3%D
            1% 80% C2% BB

            Fuel consumption: 25l / 100 km. [1]
            Tank volume: 2 x 70 l

            Which is quite comparable to
            Hummer H1 (5000 kg) - 22 liters per 100 km.
            1. MGD
              0
              9 November 2014 00: 17
              Does your passenger car also spend on the passport? ;-)
        2. +2
          8 November 2014 17: 23
          True, he promised comparative tests ... But forever, he does not have enough time. Yes, and Arzamas still can not present his car for undermining tests ...


          Well, as far as I know, comparative tests were still carried out, at least here there is a link to them:

          http://trucks.autoreview.ru/_archive/section/detail.php?ELEMENT_ID=129147&SECTIO


          N_ID = 7310

          Photo from the article

          I am grateful and apologize to the autoreview
          The interior image clearly shows that the front riders can not get out through the rear doors, and vice versa. That's why the soldier of the Spanish army is trying to open the door of the inverted LMV


          The interior image clearly shows that the front riders can not get out through the rear doors, and vice versa. That's why the soldier of the Spanish army is trying to open the door of the inverted LMV
          1. +3
            8 November 2014 17: 58
            Quote: gfs84
            The interior image clearly shows that the front riders can not get out through the rear doors, and vice versa

            Install explosion-proof chairs in "Tiger" and it will be absolutely the same.
            1. +1
              8 November 2014 18: 05
              Install explosion-proof chairs in "Tiger" and it will be absolutely the same.


              The frame can be made less massive and so that it does not block the passage through the cabin, I think Iveco is so cumbersome due to the insufficient rigidity of the cabin module (body) ...
              1. 0
                8 November 2014 18: 21
                In any case, in the presence of explosion-proof seats, it will be impossible to crawl through. And there will be as little space as in Iveco.
                1. 0
                  8 November 2014 18: 33
                  In any case, in the presence of explosion-proof seats, it will be impossible to crawl through. And there will be as little space as in Iveco.


                  It is quite possible that I have never seen a photo of a cabin (namely a driver’s part) with mine seats (which is no longer good, better problems with crawling than a complete lack of seats with protection), but I saw a passenger (landing) with such chairs and there are seats there along the sides ...
                  1. +3
                    8 November 2014 19: 07
                    Quote: gfs84
                    and according to experts from our defense industry


                    "Specialists from our military-industrial complex" or "Specialists from the military-industrial complex"? In the second case, these are representatives of a private company producing Tigers.

                    A full-scale PR campaign was launched in the media, including electronic ones, against the purchase of Iveco-LMV. The customer is quite understandable - the managers of Deripaska. They would have better spent this money and effort on bringing to mind "Tiger" and "Wolf". The latter they are developing with the money of the Ministry of Defense and still can not imagine anything except a few handicraft assembled machines.

                    But articles on the Internet and in the media must be critically evaluated. It is impossible to find out the power of the VCA from the photograph.
                2. +4
                  8 November 2014 19: 41
                  Quote: Spade
                  In any case, in the presence of explosion-proof seats, it will be impossible to crawl through. And there will be as little space as in Iveco.

                  What size should it be a chair so that a person could not crawl into the salon?
                  1. +1
                    8 November 2014 20: 09
                    Iveco. Driver's seat view
                    1. MGD
                      0
                      9 November 2014 00: 18
                      Burn the guys alive ...
                      1. +1
                        9 November 2014 00: 22
                        Why? You can get out of the driver's seat through your door, the opposite and through the hatch. This is not enough?
                    2. 0
                      9 November 2014 01: 20
                      Quote: Bad_gr
                      Iveco. Driver's seat view

                      but the Mercedes-Benz G Klasse 6x6 ...
                      клик
                  2. 0
                    8 November 2014 21: 15
                    If you are going to fasten protected chairs to half huge. If the ceiling is just big
                    1. 0
                      8 November 2014 21: 49
                      Let me explain: protected seats can be attached to the floor, to the side and to the roof. The lower it is attached, the more powerful shock absorbing devices it requires.
                      1. 0
                        8 November 2014 23: 42
                        Quote: Spade
                        Let me explain: protected seats can be attached to the floor, to the side and to the roof. The lower it is attached, the more powerful shock absorbing devices it requires.

                        Visually, the driver's seat in the "Tiger" is comparable in size to that in the "Ivek" (photo of both seats above).
                        The "Tiger" has a one-piece armored box, so it is quite appropriate to fix the chair to the ceiling. Unlike him, the "Iveka" had a tubular frame under the armchairs.
                      2. +1
                        9 November 2014 00: 03
                        It was possible to buy "Iveco" with other chairs that would not require such a frame, and therefore, the "hole" would be larger. True, I do not quite understand why he suddenly became critically needed. But when, perhaps, an explosion-proof "Tiger" appears, then we'll see how it will be possible to crawl there.

                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        The Tiger has a one-piece armored box; therefore, it is quite appropriate to attach a chair to the ceiling. Unlike him, Iveka had to put up a tubular frame under the armchairs.

                        It does not matter. The question is solely in the design of the seats. Moreover, on the "tiger" they will be much more bulky - a solid armored box is unable to extinguish the energy of the explosion. Only inertia, and here the “Tiger” has no chance: painfully easy.
    2. Pervusha Isaev
      +8
      8 November 2014 13: 19
      the firing was carried out from AK74M with a standard PP cartridge (7N10). The bullet pierced the side, the core of the bullet pierced the ballistic package and made a dent on the rear door trim. And this is only 5,45! ..


      why are you lying? the talk about TIGER PROTECTION ended after the stool was removed and ALL ARGUMENTS were already said that the designer, that the exploiters unanimously say that the armored car holds 7.62 for all test conditions, the 3rd-5th protection class and there is no reason to disbelieve them.
      http://huntsmanblog.ru/broneavtomobil-tigr-istoriya-modifikacii-xarrakteristiki/






      1. +3
        8 November 2014 13: 34
        Quote: Pervusha Isaev
        why are you lying?

        This year, in one of the articles on 5,45 ammunition, there were words that these ammunition already surpassed 7,62 caliber in penetration parameters. And it is unclear who is talking about. The main thing is about yours.
        1. Pervusha Isaev
          +8
          8 November 2014 13: 50
          Quote: Hedgehog
          about 5,45 ammunition there were words that these ammunition already surpassed caliber 7,62 in terms of penetration.


          all right, the meaning of such stuffing is not to establish the truth, but to show something that doesn’t actually exist, that sugar is salty, and salt is sweet, that it is dark during the day and light at night, that the Americans were on the moon, that the lynx is better than the tiger, etc. .
      2. +1
        8 November 2014 14: 38
        Pervusha Isaev
        that the armored car holds 7.62 under all test conditions 3rd -5th


        True galleries? And the men did not know wink the TIGER-M version with the 3rd protection class (this is 5,45) and 600 grams under the bottom

        and a photo for you on a little car (clickable, North Caucasus) feel and you don’t need to sing military songs, I understand, of course, blaming everything on Taburetkin is a good thing now, but oh, what a nuisance, it’s forgiven for nothing, though no one needs it.
        1. +2
          8 November 2014 15: 01
          Quote: Rustam
          True galleries? And the men didn’t know the wink in the army there is a TIGER-M version with 3 protection class (this is 5,45) and 600 gr under the bottom

          and a photo for you on a little fagot (clickable, North Caucasus) feel and don’t have to sing military songs, of course I understand, blaming everything on Taburetkin is a good thing now, but oh, what a nuisance, it’s forgiven for nothing, though nobody needs it.

          And where is it written that this is grade 3?
          1. +2
            8 November 2014 15: 12
            timeout
            Of course, in Chuvashia they do not know about land mines. And when did our Central Military District transfer to the Caucasus?


            Is this also a Chuvashia (photo) specialist? wink but essentially have something to say?
            In the Caucasus there is no Ivek-that they managed to put in storage, this is for you for general development

            ps- I am back (after a long break), so far for a while feel Now we will talk, tightly.
            1. +2
              8 November 2014 15: 18
              43 pieces ever sent to ZakVo.
              I apologize for the last comment, you understand copy-paste ... Not at the time I clicked on the sensor, but about the numbers I can tell the military about the numbers. for instance
              21 (aa, ak, er, eu, kv, kk, kr, kt, sk, ho) = MO: North Caucasian Military District (North Caucasian Military District)
              And in Alabino, where are the marines coming from? Yes, even from the base in Sevastopol? This is still unprotected by this photo poked during the Crimean epic.
              And here are the Caucasian tigers


              1. +1
                8 November 2014 20: 28
                Timeou (1) SU Today, 15:18 p.m. ↑
                43 pieces ever sent to ZakVo.


                You stated that the top photo was not taken in the Caucasus, saying that it was Chuvashia? you will decide? Well, why buy an armored car if people ride on the roof?

                I didn’t hear about 43 Ivek sent to the North Caucasus Military District; I know 59 units delivered were stored by the RF Ministry of Defense.
        2. +1
          8 November 2014 15: 30
          Quote: Rustam
          Is it true? And the men didn’t know that the TIGER-M version with 3 protection class (this is 5,45) and 600 gr under the bottom

          Rustam hi welcome dear ... how old ..... finally on the site ...
          just yesterday your koment read, almost on this topic ....

          with KaAZomi you are not mistaken that something is moving, but on the topic "Boomerang" and "Bear" are still dull???
          1. +2
            8 November 2014 20: 40
            cosmos111

            with KaAZomi you were not mistaken that something is moving, but on the topic "Boomerang" and "Bear" are still dull ????


            Hello too, here I decided to recall youth wink you are right with Kamaz, big ambitions + Chemezov’s lobby and so on (quality sometimes fails, but still) you see how Ivek stirred some of us at the time, because even Ivek had no idea what mine protection!

            About Boomerang-hmm? In connection with the ongoing processes in the military-industrial complex, I’m not even sure that he will be at the parade on May 9 (as Dimul promised) the device can sink into oblivion

            Regarding the Bear, forget it like a bad dream, the main customer of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation Ministry of Internal Affairs has lost interest in the car and you can forget about the party of 10 units we were told

            Now the Ministry of Internal Affairs has received the first batch of new URAL4320-VV (I criticized it at the time, but it seems that changes have been made)

            here is a photo for the whole lads (clickable) getting the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation Ministry of Internal Affairs, the first batch of URAL-4320-BB in Uralaz
            1. +2
              8 November 2014 22: 27
              Quote: Rustam
              , the main customer of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs VV, lost interest in the car

              it’s a pity, of course, a device for the Ministry of Internal Affairs could be a good one ... but compared to the Urals, it was probably at least 2 times more expensive ....
              Ural VV, in fact, a serial chassis with an armored capsule ... it will be more logical, the main thing is cheaper ... and the high mobility that the Medved's BTR suspension provided to the VV troops is not needed ...

              after the 9th 15, the same "Typhoons U and K" will sink to the same place, and already posted that the Australian "Bushmasyer" costs from 500,000 to 650,000 Australian $$$ ...
              one "Typhoon" costs like 3 "Bushmasyer", a steep price ... the troops will have a dozen units for riding in parades and that's it
              1. +1
                8 November 2014 23: 15
                cosmos111 (3) RU Today, 22:27 PM

                it’s a pity, of course, a device for the Ministry of Internal Affairs could be a good one ... but compared to the Urals,


                There is more likely the reason in the new stupid military-industrial complex, which lives (survives) on the successes of the former leader of Galkin, that's why the Bear sank into oblivion

                Ural BB, in fact a serial chassis with an armored capsule ... it will be more logical


                It is true that the unification with the Ural base chassis is 90%, so the same Uralaz is respected by brooms, unlike Kamaz (although it is pushed through using a resource, it is clear which one)

                after the 9th 15, in the same place, "Typhoons U and K" will sink, and already posted that the Australian "Bushmasyer" costs from 500,000,


                Well, I’ll tell you a little secret, everyone knows that the order of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation was 30 units from competitors (the price is certainly high) it seems they agreed to divide 50 by 50, but surely they won’t order a lot because, expensive! But you can forget about import purchases, lobbyists never let them do it. Although the purchase of Ivek (merit Taburetkin) gave impetus to a new development of armored vehicles in our country

                Here's another photo (clickable) for the whole lads, especially for the old ones, in short those who know me wink Typhoon-U 4x4 he ural and in Africa ural, masterpiece cross
                1. +1
                  9 November 2014 00: 07
                  Quote: Rustam
                  Typhoon-U 4x4 he ural and in Africa ural


                  In vain they climb into MRAPs, it would be better to offer their vehicles to the troops as a special chassis for installing weapons / equipment. You need to look for a niche ...
                  1. +1
                    9 November 2014 00: 29
                    Lopatov
                    In vain they climb into MRAPs


                    Well, why in vain? KamAZ is not the only one to do MRAPS, moreover, the Ural Typhoon-U 6x6 is very good (Kamaz is very far from reliability), they would not have decided on the DUM, otherwise they would not contact those who need it, of course, I installed the French ARX - but this is not realistic now, and I would put other chairs, the Stars are not bad - but there the price is worse than my favorite from Nexter
                    1. +2
                      9 November 2014 00: 34
                      In vain because they will not be allowed to break into this sector. Kamaz staked everything. Moreover, in different weight categories.
                      1. +1
                        9 November 2014 00: 53
                        Well, he is trying to do it, but it's the Urals wink
                    2. 0
                      9 November 2014 01: 14
                      Quote: Rustam
                      my favorite from Nexter

                      good car but a tender for JLTV, lost Oshkosh modified and lightweight version of the M-ATV good us, would such ...
                  2. +1
                    9 November 2014 00: 32
                    Quote: Spade
                    In vain they climb into MRAPs, it would be better to offer their vehicles to the troops as a special chassis for installing weapons / equipment. You need to look for a niche


                    and on MDI, you can install both weapons and equipment ...
                    was such in South Africa KShM, Okapi 6x6 ...
                2. 0
                  9 November 2014 00: 13
                  Quote: Rustam
                  ... Although the purchase of Ivek (merit Taburetkina) gave impetus to a new development of armored vehicles in our country

                  Once, even under Serdyukov, there was a military exhibition and the correspondent interviewed representatives of factories. In general: under Serdyukov, the structure that was engaged in coordinating what the military needed with the production workers was liquidated, and therefore those vehicles were fenced on the basis of certain statements by representatives from the Moscow Region instead of making a machine according to the agreed technical specifications. And these representatives (Makarov, etc.) have seven Fridays in the week, today they say one thing, and after a while another. The equipment was created without guarantees that it would be purchased. And if there is no guarantee that the equipment will be purchased, it makes no sense to buy machines for its mass production. As a result, piece products, hence the inflated (compared to conveyor production) price. Moreover, the manufacturers said that there is a new armor, there are modern composites, but the MO does not order products from them, since the price is higher.
                  To this picture we add financing at the end of the year, which after the new year can be withdrawn as not used up and we get a completely predictable result - the unsatisfactory work of the military-industrial complex.

                  But under Shoigu, I think the work will get better.
                  1. 0
                    9 November 2014 00: 19
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    In general: under Serdyukov, the structure that was engaged in coordinating what the military needed with the production workers was liquidated

                    Nonsense. The military-industrial commission worked ALWAYS.

                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    But under Shoigu, I think the work will get better.

                    laughing And how many more years does it take?
                  2. +1
                    9 November 2014 00: 34
                    Bad_gr EU Today, 00:13


                    Do you understand my words? what are you talking about, then it's all in a bunch but not the case

                    -to Taburetkina who prevented the development of mraps? there were none at all, there was no concept and work on mine protection, or is Chechnya few?

                    -after Ivek’s purchase announcement, with a fright, at last the gentlemen lifted the hitch and started working in this direction, Iveco gave an impetus and impetus to development, and you’re talking off topic

                    ps- we, before about 2 years ago, went here on this topic more than once, you can climb into the archive and see and there’s no point in talking since Ivek will not have new Tigers
                    1. +1
                      9 November 2014 00: 45
                      Quote: Rustam
                      no since Ivek will not have new Tigers

                      how we quickly give up everything, without bringing it to mind ...
                      Patria MV, also on the frame and the bottom is not V-shaped but 6-8 kg in t / e holds ...
                      explosion funnel, with 1,0 meter depth ...
                3. 0
                  9 November 2014 00: 37
                  Quote: Rustam
                  he ural and in Africa ural, masterpiece cross

                  Timoney independent suspension, or have time to buy a license ???
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      9 November 2014 01: 03
                      Quote: Rustam
                      you confuse with oj Kamaz

                      have you really developed yours ???

                      infa by independent, was only for MZKT -6001 6x6 and MZKT-500200 4x4 ...
                      but it is purely Belarusian, or rather a copy, TAK-4R ...
                      1. 0
                        9 November 2014 02: 02
                        cosmos111 (3) RU Today, 01:03 ↑
                        Quote: Rustam
                        you confuse with oj Kamaz


                        I have a comment above, retired

                        I repeat, you confuse Kamaz

                        On Typhoon-U, the suspension is domestic, and in the Urals-BB, it is usually dependent, as in the Urals-4320

                        Timoney is a (I do not remember exactly, either Dutch or English) company.
        3. Pervusha Isaev
          +1
          8 November 2014 15: 37
          Quote: Rustam
          Is it true? And the men didn’t know that the TIGER-M version with 3 protection class (this is 5,45) and 600 gr under the bottom


          Are you one of those who does not watch links?
          1. +1
            8 November 2014 20: 51
            Pervusha Isaev
            Are you one of those who does not watch links?


            No, I’m one of those who read the text! The TIGER-M with the 3rd defense class is now being operated in the army, when it is with the 5th grade or 6a then we’ll talk (but this is unlikely)
      3. +7
        8 November 2014 16: 01
        You are right, and the hood has long been armored. So the article is not entirely clear, I would say muddy. Zhirinovsky's armored car traveled a lot across Novorossiya, and covered many heroes with his armored body. The article somehow smells like rotten stuff, especially referring to "LJ!" Is not at all serious, this is the same thing to say, but I read "in contact".
        1. +4
          8 November 2014 17: 30
          Quote: juborg
          say the same, but I am "in contact"

          laughing So after all, the State Department considers it fair to take Old from similar sources. Why are we all worse ??? lol
    3. +2
      8 November 2014 21: 16
      On the picture with the TTX of the Tiger there is an inscription: "... will take part in the parade on May 9, 2013."
      An article of at least 1.5 of the year.
      Is there really nothing fresher, dear Denis Aldokhin?
      1. +1
        8 November 2014 21: 52
        Quote: Tommygun
        Is there really nothing fresher, dear Denis Aldokhin?

        laughing Good joke.

        But this is "Tiger", and not its direct analogue "Nimr". It hasn't changed for decades.
        1. +1
          8 November 2014 23: 28
          I meant that the performance characteristics specified in the article are given for vehicles, cat. nobody saw.
          Now the troops are operating a large batch of Tigers, so I would like to know the real operational performance, and not advertising / anti-advertising.
          And in general, the initiative development of individual design bureaus got out.
          Where is the TK from the customer (Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation)?
          And the fact that our defenders snickered and do not want to do anything, knowing that they will buy it anyway, is also true.
          So Taburetkin perhaps still stirred them up a bit, with my complete disrespect for this person ...
          1. +1
            9 November 2014 00: 11
            Quote: Tommygun
            So Taburetkin perhaps still stirred them up a bit, with my complete disrespect for this person ...


            He's not here at all. Iveco was bought by Putin. Although at that time it was possible to try to take much more advanced cars from the Germans or the Swiss.
            1. +1
              9 November 2014 09: 02
              The people, but no one noticed that the article is still in my opinion since 2012?
              http://topwar.ru/10315-minoborony-vmesto-tigra-hochet-zakupat-rys.html#comment-i

              d-138508
              http://topwar.ru/23421-oboydemsya-bez-italyancev.html#comment-id-861559
              http://topwar.ru/12395-v-2012-godu-rossiyskaya-armiya-poluchit-57-bronevikov-rys

              .html # comment-id-237589
              All this was already discussed there, and there was a link to Cardin. They fired at "Tiger" with the second class according to GOST, tk. The Defense Ministry at that time categorically did not see that the Ministry of Internal Affairs was already using a 6A class "Tiger".
              Namely, Aldokhin, in my opinion, wants to help the Italians retract their IVECO of the Belarusian Army, and this is precisely why this corpse was pulled out.
  2. +2
    8 November 2014 07: 50
    Let's admit, Iveco is most likely better than a tiger, and if it were completely Russian, I would prefer it without hesitation, and I also don’t see the point of buying an Italian for that kind of money.
    1. +29
      8 November 2014 11: 10
      Quote: Sergei1982
      Let's confess Iveco is probably the best tiger

      Let's admit that the article is not a professional, it contains a set of general, and fantastic phrases.
      1. About booking. Not written the main thing is how far shelling was carried out. (7,62 B-32 penetrates 10 mm of steel armor at a distance of 200 m, BTR-80, for comparison, 10 mm - the forehead, 9-7 sides, and on Iveco - God is all how much and where, but does not pierce No.) 14,5 B-32 penetrates at 200 m already 45-50 mm, what kind of body kit, in FIG, is it?
      2. Mine resistance makes you laugh. The author "in nature" saw that I was doing 8, 20 and, especially, 120 kg of TNT (ie 40 o / f 122-mm shells or two hundred-bombs) laughing I would advise you to take an interest before repeating nonsense like a parrot.
      3. Fuel consumption is measured according to the results of the control run, and not according to rumors spread by "hoes". If the article contained the specific fuel consumption of the Tiger and Iveco engines, it would be possible to argue about something, but so, "one woman said.
      In general, the opus is at the level of chatter of the average person, without any military-technical training in the field of BTT (and AT too) Yes .
      1. +2
        8 November 2014 11: 20
        Quote: Alekseev
        The author "in nature" saw that I was doing 8, 20 and, especially, 120 kg of TNT (ie 40 o / f 122-mm shells or two air bombs - hundreds)

        Have you seen? And most importantly, they tried to drag this to the place of mining and install it discreetly under the roadbed?
        1. +4
          8 November 2014 14: 16
          Quote: Spade
          Have you seen? And most importantly, they tried to drag this to the place of mining and install it discreetly under the roadbed?

          Colleague, do not exaggerate ... Even 8 kilograms is strong. BMP jumps with its 14 tons.
      2. MGD
        +3
        8 November 2014 13: 06
        I will add that the Tiger's brother, Nimr, is wandering around in Arabia with might and main !!!
        1. +2
          8 November 2014 13: 10
          But they just modernized it for a long time, installing protection against explosions. And the military-industrial complex from Arzamas does not need this. They buy "Tigers" anyway.
      3. +2
        8 November 2014 14: 49
        Alekseev (1) RU Today, 11:10


        1-interesting and what do you compare Iveco with BTR-80? you still compare with the t-90a? wink you already compare with TIGROM-M which now consists and enters the army

        2, you won’t even hide from the landmines on the tank, but that the muzzle is our weak point (not counting modern models based on the URAL Typhoon), this, before Taburetkin, couldn’t lose their attention, but what rubbish

        ps, yes it’s not an opus, but the real truth, who likes it or not, but where is the promised test from Minister Shoigu who ordered me to do it between a tiger and iveco? Here are 59 Ivec who are now being stored in the Moscow Region, for what? give them to the same police or explosives in the North Caucasus, they are very necessary there with their protection, if he isn’t already nice to you, but buy TIGP at least in the SPM2 version and mine seats, it’s better to add some thoughts, they don’t need such type (the photo is clickable, the alternative, even for balistic class 5 is already something)

        ps- And the plans were grandiose, planned to purchase 3 thousand units IVECO LMV M65
        1. +4
          8 November 2014 15: 37
          Quote: Rustam
          planned to purchase 3 thousand units IVECO LMV M65

          Most likely for four airborne assault brigades. Which are now in UAZs. It's good that you came to your senses. The "Lynx" car is too expensive to be used as transport to the helicopter loading area.
          1. MGD
            0
            9 November 2014 00: 21
            His developments, St. Petersburg, and the most suitable, point blank wink
            1. 0
              9 November 2014 00: 37
              Better not to notice. If they begin to transfer infantry from armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles to these shmakodyavki with a crew of 4-5 people, "so as the Americans have," it will be definitely bad.
      4. +2
        8 November 2014 17: 57
        and there is such a suspicion that the civilian tiger was bombarded
    2. +1
      8 November 2014 13: 22
      Quote: Sergei1982
      Let's admit, Iveco is most likely better than a tiger, and if it were completely Russian, I would prefer it without hesitation, and I also don’t see the point of buying an Italian for that kind of money.

      Yes, a well-armored Iveco costs more than a Tiger with dubious reservations. Tell me, how much does a soldier’s life cost, in rubles, dollars or something else ... And how then to explain to the relatives of the deceased (pah pah) fighter that buying a car that could save his life is not economically profitable, do you know how much ...
      1. +8
        8 November 2014 14: 43
        Quote: Bayonet
        Yes, a well-armored Iveco costs more than a Tiger with dubious reservations.

        First
        "well armored Iveco" - it is written with a pitchfork on the water. The civilian car was hung with protection - and it is very cool in advertising. The article talks about some kind of protective capsule of the crew ... where is it located there, can you tell?
        Second
        protection class 3 was ordered by the military initially and therefore make claims that the machine does not correspond to a higher protection class, the top of hypocrisy.
        The Ministry of Internal Affairs ordered a 5-class - they received it. Has anyone heard them scolding their car?

        About comparing the patency of these cars - there are simply no words. Of all the comparison facts I know, Iveka lost all the tests: in the virgin snow, where she got stuck at the very beginning of the run, and in demonstration performances (from the exhibition), where this Iveka simply went around most of the obstacles overcome by the Tiger.
        1. +3
          8 November 2014 15: 03
          Question? Why does the RF Ministry of Defense continue to order TIGERS M with Grade 3?
          1. +3
            8 November 2014 15: 37
            Because what is not needed is better to buy cheaper.
        2. +1
          8 November 2014 15: 15
          Quote: Bad_gr
          The article talks about some kind of protective capsule for the crew ... where can it be located?

          Roughly speaking, a protective capsule is a car interior with enhanced armor protection and protection against deformation when undermined.
          1. +3
            8 November 2014 15: 40
            Not so in Iveco LMV. There is a controlled destruction of the hull. So there is essentially no "protective capsule". And it is impossible to install it on cars of this weight.
            1. +3
              8 November 2014 15: 47
              Quote: Spade
              There is a controlled destruction of the shell

              The case in which the armored elements are attached to the frame, which in itself does not withstand the load can not be controlled to collapse, sopromat taxis.
              1. +1
                8 November 2014 16: 03
                Just the opposite. The framework will extinguish part of the energy with its controlled destruction. A welded capsule of armor can extinguish it only by its inertia. What is possible only on machines of a heavier segment.

                Most likely, this is precisely why there is still no "Tiger" ready for tests by detonation. They wanted, using German technology, to install a special panel with a honeycomb filler on the bottom, which, crumbling, would extinguish the energy, but it did not work. And now, under the conditions of sanctions, it will not work.
                1. +2
                  8 November 2014 17: 15
                  Quote: Spade
                  ..... Just the opposite. The framework will extinguish part of the energy with its controlled destruction. A welded capsule of armor can extinguish it only by its inertia. What is possible only on machines of a heavier segment.
                  Iveka

                  Tiger
                  1. MGD
                    +1
                    9 November 2014 00: 41
                    All this is only in favor of the Tiger !!!
        3. +2
          8 November 2014 15: 56
          Quote: Bad_gr
          First
          "well armored Iveco" is a pitchfork on the water

          Bad_gr, HERE HOW MANY STANAG advertising booklets are booked, so it is ...
          2 / 2, for mine protection and ballistic protection, no more no less ....
          and we still have no STANAG-Gost for mine protection ... WHO IS LOBBYING IT ALL ???
  3. +10
    8 November 2014 08: 06
    The fact that the author conducted an analysis ... wonderful.
    The place of breaking on the Tiger ???, and who said that the reservation should be uniform.
    Alright with this, customers determine everything ... they wrote the task, then they got it.
    The question is different.
    The destruction of the state’s monopoly in the supply of weapons didn’t lead to anything good, as a matter of fact.
    The entire private business is imprisoned for one ... grandmother.
    Under the state system, so that everything is not done, everything is done in one jurisdiction ... state.
    It is no secret that Soviet intelligence was a recognized leader in industrial espionage.
    What now ... okay, the collapse of the system.
    Actually, to whom to transfer intelligence achievements ??? Private trader ???
    Under socialism ... you need to buy something ... sit down and think that you can actually squeeze out of it ... what equipment, what technologies ... both for the military and for the peaceful needs of the national economy.
    At any plant of the military industrial complex there was a factory cover, like everything was bought for him.
    Conditionally take Lynx (which is Mistral) ... and what they bought besides the designer at a fantastic price ... or what.
    But someone thought about the operation ... what will result in ??? Now the embargo !!!
    Actually, what was done in Soviet times, and what the Chinese comrades are doing ... they bought a batch ... checked that suits. Draw conclusions and amendments to local realities ... formed a technical task for designers .... conducted an analysis of production capacities.
    What's next ... we can do it ourselves ... and we’ll buy technology.
    Got candy.
    1. +9
      8 November 2014 08: 41
      Quote: Strashila
      The fact that the author conducted an analysis ... wonderful.

      What analysis? Showed a photo where the "Tiger" sat on the bottom? Or wrote this comment under the photo:
      During 10 years of operation in combat, 10 machines were undermined, and only two people were killed and three Spanish soldiers (26.06.2011, Afghanistan) were injured in a side explosion of a TNT equivalent 120.

      So dear author did not even deign to rummage through the wilds of the Internet for example:
      http://survincity.com/2009/06/and-in-war-as-in-war/
      This analysis of the bombings was published on our resources, but now you will not find it.
      Further, how can a car be considered armored when armored panels are mounted on a space frame made of pipes.
      Here is an analysis from Arms of Russia back from 2010.
      http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/archive/tigr-protiv-rysi-18-12-2010-00-45-00/
      A military secret:

      Here is another analysis.
      http://sluzhuotechestvu.info/index.php/gazeta-sluzhu-otechestvu/arkhiv-2013/yanv

      ar-2013/item/429-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA-%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%8C-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B1%

      D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0.html

      This is about how both cars run in the snow and not only:

      In short, everything speaks for itself.
      1. avt
        +13
        8 November 2014 09: 45
        Quote: Timeout
        What analysis? Showed a photo where the "Tiger" sat on the bottom? Or wrote this comment under the photo:

        Well, of course! The author has conducted an analysis of this act -, let us explain: the first copies purchased in Italy are not adapted for winter operation, they did not include protection against snow and chains on wheels, "I really did not see chains on a tiger during those tests, but to see the shooting is too small ---- in translation into Russian - there will be a set for a separate fee. on a mine with a capacity of up to 65 kg in TNT equivalent. In fact, it turned out that the safety margin of the car is much greater. So, on April 8, 14 in the area of ​​Ludina, 2010-20 km north of Qala-i-Nau (Afghanistan), LMV M30 was blown up by a homemade mine with a TNT equivalent capacity of about 65 kg. No fatalities, only wounded and shell-shocked. "------ 20 !!!! Can you imagine -20t holds and no scratches for users !!!!!! And we refuse crying But what a squiggle, understand what Yes, with such results it is necessary to travel around the world and demonstratively undermine the samples in front of the generals - there will be no rejection of orders! Yes, in general, it was undermined with 8kg ??? There is a report on the demolition tests - show and we will all go in orderly lines to rescue Vasilyev from the dungeons of her own apartment for Serdyukov! I personally carry pink slippers.wassat
        1. +10
          8 November 2014 10: 07
          Quote: avt
          The author will not tell you - were the tests for undermining within the framework of signing the contract in Russia?

          The author will not say anything! Explosion tests have not yet been conducted.
          Here is an example, the Afghan MRAP RG31 - 12 kg. explosives

          There are simply no living ones, just as there are no bodies.
          Or is it 6 kg.
          1. +2
            8 November 2014 10: 33
            Quote: Timeout
            The author will not say anything! Explosion tests have not yet been conducted.

            Were carried out. At a German training ground. Why? Because for some reason we still do not have a GOST for mine protection. But there is no GOST, there is no methodology.

            And what (or who) prevents the adoption of such a GOST, I can imagine.
            1. +8
              8 November 2014 10: 51
              Quote: Spade
              Because for some reason we still do not have GOST for mine protection.

              Hail artillery! German tests are a complete fake. Look what 2 well-laid 120 mm do. mines. GOST for what? As Afghan proved, and now Syria and Iraq are proving, there is no sense in mine-protected equipment. Here's another illustrative example: Undermining a bookmark made from a Grad shell about 18 kg. BB

              Praised mine protection. 100% defeat of the crew and landing.
              1. +1
                8 November 2014 11: 13
                Welcome.

                Quote: Timeout
                German test is a complete fake.

                I don’t think so. This was done by the Germans. Firstly, they themselves are kids watching their reputation, and secondly, which is very important, they tested the technique of competitors.
                By the way, their "Iveco" did not pass, as well as their cars. In this class they chose Eagle-5 from the Swiss "Movag"




                Quote: Timeout
                Look what they do 2 well-laid 120 mm. mines.

                Such bookmarks are easily detected by regular means-mine detectors and ground penetrating radars. Here is an example of ordinary gouging.


                Quote: Timeout
                GOST for what?

                Mines anti-tank and anti-vehicle. Primarily used by NATO, Iran and the Chinese for remote mining.

                For counter-terrorism activities, patrolling roads and so on. freelance machines needed. And there the main thing should be protection from landmines on the sidelines
                1. avt
                  +3
                  8 November 2014 11: 53
                  Quote: Timeout
                  German test is a complete fake.

                  Quote: Spade
                  I don’t think so. This was done by the Germans.

                  laughing Om mani badm hum! The Germans themselves! Well then, it remains to cry. And maybe all the same we will not take the words of interested merchants on faith? The Germans, after all, swim in "Iveka" in shares and, if memory serves, it is in defense.
                  Quote: Spade
                  ? Because for some reason we still do not have GOST for mine protection

                  And I was thinking - why did the Italians themselves abandon the blasting tests in Russia? It turns out there was no GOST! The explosives were there, the car was brought, but Gost did not come and they did not blow up without him. But doubts remained - maybe the Italians just knew the result in advance when laying 8kg, well, after the German test, they just hung spaghetti on their ears ??? With the Centaur, the same crap, even more - they did not allow ours to ride on it on the field, only from their hands it was possible to "eat". Why is this all of a sudden? Maybe after the video from Tagil of joint rides between "Iveka" and "Tiger" over the concrete curb in front of the laughing public and the angry Serdyukov at the sight of Iveka going around the obstacle? By the way, about the comparative results of the shelling indicated by the author - in fact, on the Tiger, an armor of the same class ordered by the generals in order to save money, and then they themselves howled - armor does not hold, give "Ivek". I do not defend "Tiger" and do not claim that this is the height of technical thought in four-wheeled movement over rough terrain, but somehow I would like to compare it adequately, taking into account all the details and circumstances of their appearance, and not as an author - that's it. ...
                  1. +1
                    8 November 2014 12: 51
                    Quote: avt
                    Om mani badm hum! The Germans themselves!

                    But to read the phrase to the end is not fate? There I wrote something else about competition, which you did not deign to pay attention to.


                    Quote: avt
                    And I thought - why did the Italians themselves abandon the tests for undermining in Russia? It turns out there was no GOST!

                    Exactly. There is neither GOST nor a certified laboratory that has the right to perform such tests. Therefore, they were held in Germany on a Russian order in the presence of the Russian commission.




                    Quote: avt
                    Maybe after the video with Tagil, Iveka's joint rides with the Tiger over the concrete curb in front of the laughing audience

                    Charming ...
                    -Your iron does not iron ...
                    -But then he is much better than Italian hammering nails, buy, you will not lose!
                    fellow
                  2. MGD
                    -5
                    8 November 2014 13: 12
                    For the Tiger it was already ... jumped off-road and stumbled, already the body burst ... others would not have flooded there, but after all "Russo Turisto" ...
                    1. +1
                      8 November 2014 17: 30
                      Quote: MGD
                      For the Tiger it was already ... jumped off-road and stumbled, already the body burst ... others would not have flooded there, but after all "Russo Turisto" ...


                      The strange manner of your writing,
                      1. MGD
                        0
                        9 November 2014 00: 44
                        I can’t find the link ... everyone is excitedly discussing how the militias broke Zhirinovsky’s gift ..
                        There was a review of the operation of the civil Tigers - there the guy got into trouble with the front axle, and described how they flopped, that the body had already burst, everyone else would have been killed on another machine ..
                      2. MGD
                        0
                        9 November 2014 00: 55
                        here one man on the Tiger and its schools even wrote an open letter to the minister, if I did not confuse the models.
                        www.drive2.ru/users/vnedorog/blog/302055/#post
                        www.drive2.ru/users/vnedorog/blog/409033/#post
                      3. MGD
                        0
                        9 November 2014 01: 08
                        For the airborne will make a "jumping" "Tiger"
                        http://izvestia.ru/news/545913 wink
                    2. Kamov
                      -1
                      14 November 2014 19: 07
                      nonsense.
                  3. -1
                    9 November 2014 14: 13
                    Quote: avt
                    Quote: Timeout
                    German test is a complete fake.

                    Quote: Spade
                    I don’t think so. This was done by the Germans.

                    laughing Om mani badm hum! The Germans themselves! Well then, it remains to cry. And maybe all the same we will not take the words of interested merchants on faith? The Germans, after all, swim in "Iveka" in shares and, if memory serves, it is in defense.
                    Quote: Spade
                    ? Because for some reason we still do not have GOST for mine protection

                    And I was thinking - why did the Italians themselves abandon the blasting tests in Russia? It turns out there was no GOST! The explosives were there, the car was brought, but Gost did not come and they did not blow up without him. But doubts remained - maybe the Italians just knew the result in advance when laying 8kg, well, after the German test, they just hung spaghetti on their ears ??? With the Centaur, the same crap, even more - they did not allow ours to ride on it on the field, only from their hands it was possible to "eat". Why is this all of a sudden? Maybe after the video from Tagil of joint rides between "Iveka" and "Tiger" over the concrete curb in front of the laughing public and the angry Serdyukov at the sight of Iveka going around the obstacle? By the way, about the comparative results of the shelling indicated by the author - in fact, on the Tiger, an armor of the same class ordered by the generals in order to save money, and then they themselves howled - armor does not hold, give "Ivek". I do not defend "Tiger" and do not claim that this is the height of technical thought in four-wheeled movement over rough terrain, but somehow I would like to compare it adequately, taking into account all the details and circumstances of their appearance, and not as an author - that's it. ...

                    So I, for the exercise of the mind - 8 kg of explosives, THAT IS - carbide in a bottle, a kerosene cocktail, hexagen, sentex, or maybe just TNT? Or maybe they’ve got the wrong system of grenades?
                2. MGD
                  +1
                  8 November 2014 13: 09
                  This means the sappers on the bookmarks got busted wink
                3. +2
                  8 November 2014 14: 41
                  Quote: Spade
                  Germans did it

                  The Germans did tests on the basis of a laboratory for the development of ceramic armor, which is put on "Iveco". Three times with a colleague, we reviewed the video with the tests, the explosion does not pull even a half kilometer, because such a bomb quietly turns armored members into a coffin. And they often have class 5 protection.
                  Quote: Spade
                  Such bookmarks are easily detected by regular means-mine detectors and ground penetrating radars. Here is an example of ordinary gouging.

                  Engineering intelligence in Afghanistan is not very developed, because the fighters on the road or the coalition’s slow-moving transport are excellent for the Taliban.
                  ! 00% are dead, so they prefer to move from point A to point B with the highest possible speed. And the armor of all PMCs practically flies.
                  1. +1
                    8 November 2014 15: 43
                    They also have normal machines for finding mines and IEDs. Georadar based on "Husky" is generally a sapper's dream. It looks like they are also saving on the military.
                    1. +1
                      8 November 2014 16: 12
                      Quote: Spade
                      They also have normal machines for finding mines and IEDs. Georadar based on "Husky" is generally a sapper's dream. It looks like they are also saving on the military.

                      A dream is a dream, but it practically doesn’t use these machines to put it on guard is a minimum of a security company with the support of the same BMP or BTR. And the Taliban carry this caravan at a time. Losses are higher than from the landmines themselves. Here the columns fly at high speed. If someone is blown up, usually no one attacks.
              2. 0
                8 November 2014 11: 28
                German trials are a complete fake
                Yes, but for some reason, all of our leadership and the oligarchs prefer armored German cars, rather than our battalion commander or a tiger (and the draft motorcade for the president, God forbid, of course, so far it was a success, but for now?), Think about it.
              3. +2
                8 November 2014 12: 11
                Quote: Timeout
                Praised mine protection. 100% defeat of the crew and landing.

                You can indicate the date and place, as well as the number of crew members affected
                1. -1
                  9 November 2014 14: 18
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Quote: Timeout
                  Praised mine protection. 100% defeat of the crew and landing.

                  You can indicate the date and place, as well as the number of crew members affected

                  Can you identify the place and number of Israeli nuclear warheads?
              4. +2
                8 November 2014 17: 48
                Look what they do 2 well-laid 120 mm. mines.



                Once again to the question of explosion:

                (taken from here http://trucks.autoreview.ru/_archive/section/detail.php?ELEMENT_ID=106012&SECTIO
                N_ID = 4734)

                A photo of an LMV blown up in Afghanistan went all over the internet. Russian experts carefully studied it, and they had doubts about the explosion resistance of the machine, since the charge, according to their calculations, did not exceed one kilogram of trinitrotoluene
                1. +1
                  8 November 2014 18: 24
                  "Specialists" who calculate the power of the explosion from the photograph of the funnel will someday ruin us.

                  In addition, it is not known whether this is a funnel from IEDs or we are observing an old funnel and a car body, which we dragged to the side of the road so as not to interfere with the passage.
                  1. +1
                    8 November 2014 18: 38
                    In addition, it is not known whether this is a funnel from IEDs or we are observing an old funnel and a car body, which we dragged to the side of the road so as not to interfere with the passage.


                    Well, it’s not a funnel (although, as I understand it, the Fiat’s people themselves most likely stated all the initial data for advertising purposes and the image), but experts from our military-industrial complex consider the explosion protection to be inconsistent (if I’m not mistaken, 4-6 kg in TE , according to the article, in general - 20 kg te) with a real one according to the conclusions to the photo does not exceed 1 kilo of trinitrotoluene ...

                    I repeat the comment to the photo is not mine taken from the article (indicated in the link) do not be lazy go read ...
          2. 0
            8 November 2014 12: 10
            Quote: Timeout
            There are simply no living ones, just as there are no bodies.

            Sure?
            1. +8
              8 November 2014 13: 31
              Quote: Pimply
              Sure?

              I'm sure! Will the mince remains satisfy? The topic of "Lynx" is so sore. Specially registered for militarifoto, goarmi at the beginning of this epic. There quite often 2 veteran sappers from the 2nd Ranger battalion appear, can share photos and tell how and where they are undermined in Afghanistan, they have nothing to hide, they just worked there. Go, get acquainted, you will ask the right questions and learn a lot of interesting things. And most importantly, rip correctly in the right places.
            2. -1
              9 November 2014 14: 21
              Quote: Pimply
              Quote: Timeout
              There are simply no living ones, just as there are no bodies.

              Sure?

              Not sure, but judging by the video of the beaten-up ukro-BMP and armored personnel carrier in Novorossia, the bodies are evenly distributed over the body and surroundings.
          3. +2
            8 November 2014 17: 34
            The LMV M65 was blown up on a homemade mine with a TNT equivalent of about 20 kg. There are no dead, only wounded and shell-shocked.


            This is where the affftor doesn’t have anything normal with his head ...

            Link to autoreview again:

            http://trucks.autoreview.ru/_archive/section/detail.php?ELEMENT_ID=123289&SECTIO


            N_ID = 6923

            And a few photos from the specified article:


            Personnel tests in Germany: a six-kilogram charge turned the whole in front of the armored car, but the body remained intact. But the hatch opened during the explosion suggests that the "crew" received barotrauma. And our experts have questions regarding the test procedure.
            1. +4
              8 November 2014 17: 37
              Here are the pictures after real bombings (photos and comments from the above article):

              This LMV of Spanish troops was blown up in Afghanistan on a land mine. Judging by the curved floor, the torn front door and the bent back, a strong shock wave passed into the cabin. Did the crew survive?



              Afghanistan, June 30, 2011. In the explosion of a land mine, two Czech soldiers were easily injured in front of the machine. But the body was depressurized: the interior is strewn with gravel



              Afghanistan, May 31, 2011. Czech gunner and Afghan translator killed, driver seriously injured
            2. 0
              9 November 2014 14: 23
              Quote: gfs84
              The LMV M65 was blown up on a homemade mine with a TNT equivalent of about 20 kg. There are no dead, only wounded and shell-shocked.


              This is where the affftor doesn’t have anything normal with his head ...

              Link to autoreview again:

              http://trucks.autoreview.ru/_archive/section/detail.php?ELEMENT_ID=123289&SECTIO



              N_ID = 6923

              And a few photos from the specified article:


              Personnel tests in Germany: a six-kilogram charge turned the whole in front of the armored car, but the body remained intact. But the hatch opened during the explosion suggests that the "crew" received barotrauma. And our experts have questions regarding the test procedure.

              Turned the front? So maybe under the front and planted? You weren’t a witness.
        2. +3
          8 November 2014 10: 47
          And I did not know that in RGD-5 as much as 200! gr TNT!
        3. +2
          8 November 2014 15: 18
          avt (1) SU Today, 09: 45 ↑


          Uncle, you don’t start! Well, what are we comparing, the author here also drives a comparison of the SPM Ministry of Internal Affairs and Iveco for the army (he also knows little)

          It is necessary to compare Tiger-m and Iveco (although why compare if Iveco will not be used)

          И you should know that the Tiger and Iveco now have no options and prospects - the new Kamaz OJSC with its Typhoons breaks out on a pedestal. And the military-industrial complex with its Tiger let bamboo suck, we’ve practically ruined everything, we won’t even
          1. +3
            8 November 2014 15: 47
            KamAZ still has heavier cars, in class - analogues of the German "Dingo"
            1. +1
              8 November 2014 20: 48
              Lopatov (1) Today, 15:47


              Since the Tiger and the Wolf have prospects in the current situation, 0,0 - And Kamaz is promoting its products of different classes - even Minskers want to move them.god help
              1. +1
                8 November 2014 21: 35
                Quote: Rustam
                Since the prospects for the Tiger and the Wolf in the current situation are 0,0

                I would not say that they have now relied on pushing the old "Tigers" into the troops. Take, for example, some PX reconnaissance vehicle, previously based on the BTR / MT-LB / BTRD, its equipment is rammed into the "Tiger" and this is "offered" to the security forces. Then the hairy foot at the top "facilitates" the acceptance of the machine for supply.


                Quote: Rustam
                even Minskers want to move. God to help

                Minskers will get out. I would not be surprised if their Umka armored personnel carrier appears before the Boomerang. But "BAZ" will die. And this is not good.
                1. 0
                  8 November 2014 23: 02
                  Quote: Spade
                  But "BAZ" will die. And this is not good

                  as a manufacturer of trucks and multi-axle platforms ... most likely - .. not far ...
                  in our military-industrial complex, it’s necessary to have a roof-hairy paw in the Kremlin, without this you can’t get into the Moscow Region ...
                  civilian products will be riveted in small batches ... that the current owners probably even profitable --- less hemorrhoids ....

                  there is in Russia, a fairly large enterprise "Tonar" is called, stalls, and trailers of various tonnage and purpose filled up Russia ... they probably do not even know about them in the Moscow region, but they could do "things" ...
                  BRDM from KB "Cayman" supercar could have turned out ... but who remembers this --- monopoly ... it's a road to nowhere ...
                  Belarusians stand, dad will not let them fill up ...

                  just a beautiful armored car --- not that superfluous ... they take metal and cut off everything superfluous ((poet, me))) Yes
                  Mfezi armored
                2. +1
                  8 November 2014 23: 19
                  Lopatov (1) Today, 21:35
                  her equipment is rammed into the Tiger


                  Well, that’s it, I think soon when the Tiger-M contracts (concluded earlier) are fulfilled, there will be no new ones, there are also many complaints about the TIGER, especially regarding maintenance

                  Minskers will get out. I would not be surprised if their Umka armored personnel carrier appears before the Boomerang. But "BAZ" will die. And this is not good.


                  Let's see winked
              2. 0
                9 November 2014 09: 55
                And it’s nothing that IVECO-Lynx initially shoved KAMAZ just the same, and then when it saw what it was shoving, it merged quietly and no one remembers KAMAZ participating in this deal.
        4. +1
          8 November 2014 20: 06
          revealing samples in front of generals undermine

          It’s better to undermine them together with the generals and in six months we will have the best samples of ground equipment in the world soldier For example, how they tested the car for Stalin.
          The first in this important matter is getting the place of the previous Minister of Defense, Comrade Serdyukov. laughing 120 kg of TNT to the ground and forth, they say - Iveco WILL HOLD!))
          1. 0
            8 November 2014 21: 23
            Quote: Jager
            The first in this important matter is getting the place of the previous Minister of Defense, Comrade Serdyukov. 120 kg of TNT to the ground and forth, they say - Iveco WILL HOLD!))

            And all those who declare that it is better to undermine the "tiger" in them?
        5. Kamov
          0
          14 November 2014 19: 04
          bye ... and the caption under the photo in the article read - "Over 10 years of operation in combat conditions, 10 vehicles were blown up and only once two were killed and three Spanish servicemen were injured (26.06.2011/120/XNUMX, Afghanistan) in a side explosion with a power of XNUMX kg in TNT equivalent. "

          okay, it can be attributed to the "lateral explosion" and my knowledge of explosives, but even it seems to me that here at least the number is superfluous ...
      2. +3
        8 November 2014 13: 43
        Quote: Timeout
        In short, everything speaks for itself.

        Yes. interesting. A comrade from the video says that the Tiger's ground clearance is "one and a half - two times more than that of Iveco." In Iveco, he is 49.3 cm - some unprecedented figures are obtained from the Tiger! And in general I do not believe all these videos! If you could drive it yourself, then you can judge. I remember driving on the 66th Lawn around an armored personnel carrier buried in the mud, that its cross-country ability is worse? It just depends on the driver. Again, if you want to show that the car is bad - no problem! I don't really want to test the durability of armor and mine protection, but the experience of Iveco's combat use shows that the vehicle is reliable. Let's look at things with an open mind!
        1. +3
          8 November 2014 14: 09
          Quote: Bayonet
          Iveco, he is 49.3 cm.

          This is in the highest place, and you look at the front suspension. About BTR, this is of course strong if the SPSh does not work, and so they lower their wheels and climb out of almost any dirt. The experience of combat use says absolutely the opposite. It is sewn from a PC like cardboard, and undermined like any other machine with a 100% result.
          1. 0
            8 November 2014 15: 00
            Quote: Timeout
            About BTR, this is of course strong if the SPSh does not work, and so they lower their wheels and climb out of almost any dirt.

            So what am I talking about - who was driving!
            And the clearance also indicates the smallest clearance, who measures the maximum? If you climb under the bottom, you can stick a meter in some kind of nook and cranny!
            1. +1
              8 November 2014 15: 37
              Quote: Bayonet
              And the clearance indicates the smallest clearance, who measures the maximum

              Is there really half a meter from the bottom end of the "crab"? The height does not even go to the floor of a person's shin. Measure your lower leg length and divide it in half. You will know the approximate clearance of the Lynx
              1. 0
                9 November 2014 09: 56
                Quote: Timeout
                Measure your lower leg length and divide it in half. You will know the approximate clearance of the Lynx

                Look at the poster - 49.3 cm. (Click)
        2. +2
          8 November 2014 17: 44
          Yes. interesting. A comrade from the video says that the Tiger's ground clearance is "one and a half - two times more than that of Iveco." Iveco has 49.3 cm.


          Yes, yes, the issue of cross-country ability generally needs to be approached separately, let's resort again to the materials of the auto review (I just read it and everything remained in my memory, they seriously considered this "lynx" there):

          http://trucks.autoreview.ru/_archive/section/detail.php?ELEMENT_ID=106012&SECTIO
          N_ID = 4734

          here are the frames from this article:

          Video footage of winter patency tests. The tiger rushed forward, the Urals were also moving, and IVECO and Numvee were immediately stuck
    2. 0
      8 November 2014 08: 56
      You don’t need to say that state ownership is more effective in large enterprises as far as possible I agree, the government didn’t stand next to a private trader, Mistral built a ship with a displacement of 20000 tons at a price of 0,5 mln euro in two years, we are building a frigate at state-owned companies 8 years, Zelenodolsk plant (if I’m not mistaken private) builds MRCs in 1,5 years, landing boats in state shipyards for 3 years, while unmanned aerial vehicles have been developed by the state representative. nor what happened when transferred to private companies appeared literally a year later.
      1. 0
        8 November 2014 11: 05
        And to justify poorly about the effectiveness of state property, or else only put the minuses of the master.
        1. +2
          8 November 2014 15: 10
          Quote: Sergei1982
          And justify poorly about the effectiveness of state property

          What is the rationale for that, at the state-owned enterprise, everyone does not care - the state treasury will still pay the salary, and the private trader should strain his head because he is not so rich and knows how to count money that does not fall on his head.
          1. +1
            8 November 2014 15: 46
            And why, then, the non-state Arzamas plant is clearly "hovered" with mine protection, and the state-owned KamAZ is issuing cars of this type like hot cakes?
            1. 0
              9 November 2014 09: 42
              Quote: Spade
              And why then the non-state Arzamas plant is clearly "frozen" with mine protection?

              Apparently such "specialists" were selected ...
      2. +2
        8 November 2014 14: 28
        if the state did not delay the money for shipbuilders for a year, they built it faster, believe me. And with such delays, when sometimes the factory even tried to buy nothing, this is a very short time.
    3. +2
      8 November 2014 13: 28
      Quote: Strashila
      The entire private business is imprisoned for one ... grandmother.

      It’s interesting, but what is public business done for? By the way, BUSINESS is not an abusive word - it is the relationship between market participants about their joint activities aimed at making a profit (or other forms of income). The state does not need income and profit?
  4. +9
    8 November 2014 08: 22
    Quote: Sergei1982
    Let's admit, Iveco is most likely better than a tiger, and if it were completely Russian, I would prefer it without hesitation, and I also don’t see the point of buying an Italian for that kind of money.

    A country that started buying foreign military equipment loses its independence and becomes a vassal of the "owner" !!!! Serdyukov-stooltkin ...... it is funny and bitter to contemplate the results of his activities as Minister of Defense ..... And then they seem to be trying to justify him !!!! Given his plans, we must buy planes and tanks and ships and artillery from the west, so what? Article minus !!!!! It turns out that everything is shitty in Serdyukovsky chtol ?! An extension about a leopard, centaur, mistral, eagle owl, etc. ... We don't know how to do anything, Mr. Serdikov-Medvedev-Vasilyeva thinks so (and this article talks about it) ... At least they kicked out this nit in time, I would like to take he was shot !!!!
    1. -8
      8 November 2014 09: 04
      That in the days of Stalin they were not shy about buying BT-5,7 based on Christie, T-26 based on Vickers, half of the planes flew in English engines, in the USSR most Polish landing ships are all atomic. Finnish icebreakers.
      1. +4
        8 November 2014 09: 17
        Quote: Sergei1982
        half planes flew in English

        Not really? All engines were made in the USSR as a last resort under a license such as the M-100. Everything related to the army was also done only in the USSR. Do not use a lot of Internet to broaden your horizons, we used only the concept in finalization by our engineers.
        1. +3
          8 November 2014 14: 26
          Quote: Timeout
          All engines were made in the USSR as a last resort under a license such as the M-100.

          M-17 aircraft engine - manufactured under the license of BMW-6, was installed on R-1, R-5, I-7, TB-1, TB-3, R-6, Ant-9 aircraft, TB-5 and TB- tanks 7, the Soviet M-34, M-35 were subsequently created on the basis of this motor.
          the M-105P engine, based on the German Junkers engine, was produced in the USSR under license since the late 30s.
          French aircraft engines "Renault-4" and "Renault-6" were produced in the USSR under license under the appropriate designation "MV-4" and "MV-6"
          M-100 aircraft engine (used on SB bombers) and its modifications M-100a, M-103, M-104, M-105, VK-107 ... - under license from Hispano-Suiza Hs-12 (France)
          the M-25 aircraft engine, aka RTSF-5 (was on the I-15), is a licensed American Wright-Cyclone SGR-1820F3. All subsequent Soviet modifications of it M-62, M-63, M-71
          aircraft engine M-85 and its modifications M-86, M-87, M-88, M-88a, M-89, M-90 - licensed "Gnome-Ron Mistral-Major K-14" (France)
          TK-19 turbocompressor - an exact copy of the American analogue of the Wright-Cyclone R-3350 engine
          The captured German jet engines - BMW-003 and Jumo-004 - were carefully studied and mastered by production.
          British turbojet engines "Nin" and "Derwent". Created by Rolls-Royce designers. Engines intended for the USSR were just being assembled by British factories, and the Council of Ministers, by a decree of February 15, 1947, ordered the MAP to launch their production at domestic factories, bypassing generally accepted norms and rules, i.e. without purchasing a license.
      2. +7
        8 November 2014 10: 04
        Quote: Sergei1982
        That in the days of Stalin they were not shy about buying BT-5,7 based on Christie, T-26 based on Vickers, half of the planes flew in English engines, in the USSR most Polish landing ships are all atomic. Finnish icebreakers.

        1. T-26 - Soviet light tank. Based on an English tank Vickers Mk.E (also known as 6-ton Vickers) purchased in 1930.
        "Based on" is not the same as purchased 1500 units from the British.
        2. BT - the name of a series of light wheeled tracked tanks (1930-ies) based on a prototype sold in the USSR by the American inventor Christie. In May - June, 1931 Christie tanks were tested, according to the results of which a report was compiled, requiring the elimination of a number of defects and design improvements. This made it impossible to directly copy the tank, as originally planned. The tank tower generally still needed to be created. To refine the tank, a special design bureau was created under the leadership of N. Toskin.
        Again, the prototype of Christie is just the foundation, everything else was done by ourselves.
        3. BDK project 775 - The ships were laid down and built at the "Stocznia Polnocna" shipyard in Gdansk (Poland) in the period from 1974 to 1985. The chief designer was the Polish shipbuilding engineer O. Vysotsky, and the chief observer from the Soviet Navy was first Captain 1st Rank BN Molodozhnikov, then the civilian specialist MI Rybnikov.
        Poland made them by order of the USSR and under the control of the USSR, I recall that in those days Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact and CMEA. Italy is a member of NATO.
        4. All 10 of the nuclear-powered icebreakers existing in the world (although one of them is actually not an icebreaker, but an atomic lighter carrier with an ice-breaker nose) were designed in the USSR and Russia. At 2014, 6 of them are in service. Almost all of these ships were built at the Admiralty Shipyards and the Baltic Shipyard in Leningrad. Two icebreakers - the Vaigach and Taimyr river-sea vessels — were commissioned by the USSR at the Wärtsilä shipyard in Finland from Soviet-made steel and then transported to Leningrad for the installation of nuclear power units and other equipment. The lighter carrier Sevmorput was built at the Zeriv factory in Kerch.
        2 of 10 is again not all.

        In general, learn the primary sources ....
        1. 0
          8 November 2014 10: 24
          Sorry, I made a mistake with icebreakers and tanks, but the BDKs were not built with us, but Poland was of the type in CMEA, which doesn’t prevent it from considering Russia an enemy 20 years later, so this union could well have hit in the back with an aviation motor as it turned out all the same, they were also produced under a license, but about Iveco I didn’t even shout what should be purchased, I just said that it is better.
          1. +2
            8 November 2014 10: 36
            Quote: Sergei1982
            I just said that she is better.

            Better, but with what? Arguments
            1. +1
              8 November 2014 10: 47
              The presence of protection against explosions.
              1. +3
                8 November 2014 11: 09
                Quote: Spade
                The presence of protection against explosions.

                That?

                Two mines, two Lynxes ...
                1. 0
                  8 November 2014 11: 18
                  Yes, that is. The main thing is that the crews stay alive. Their preparation is more expensive than the machines themselves. On "Iveco", when blown up by a mine (not a large land mine, but a mine), only arrows in machine-gun mountings on the roof die. First of all, because they do not sit on explosion-proof chairs and are not fastened with belts.
                  1. +4
                    8 November 2014 11: 34
                    Quote: Spade
                    First of all, because they don’t sit on explosion-proof chairs and are not fastened with belts.

                    It was mines in the photo, the usual TM-57s that are still in service with the DRA army. In the foreground, an explosion occurred right under the bottom of the airborne squad and the car stupidly turned over and burned out, 5 people died. In the background, an explosion under the engine compartment, the driver, a passenger sitting next to him and a machine gunner were killed, 4 soldiers died from injuries already in the hospital.
                    1. +1
                      8 November 2014 11: 41
                      And exactly TM-75? It is strange if they were used as a self-propelled gun- it is easier to lay a homemade canister. And the pins on the road are painfully noticeable.

                      By the way, about the "burned out" - was it accidentally a cumulative anti-bottom one?
                      1. +2
                        8 November 2014 13: 00
                        Similarly, the TM-57, with the fuse MV-57 which, after long-term storage, works with a delay, rather than the MVSh-57, the usual anti-tracked PT bottom simply broke out and blew up the tank.
                      2. +1
                        8 November 2014 13: 06
                        Quote: Timeout
                        and blew the tank.

                        Is he without protection? Wow, the jamb is big.
                      3. +3
                        8 November 2014 13: 48
                        Quote: Spade
                        Is he without protection? Wow, the jamb is big.

                        As far as I know this is true, it is simply not protected to undermine this way. Protectors from shrapnel and bullets possibly help. And the TM-57 at the T-72 carries out the roller together with the balancer, and sometimes even a couple. This is what she does with the Humvee
                      4. 0
                        8 November 2014 23: 31
                        Quote: Timeout
                        This is what she does with the Humvee

                        at Hamer, the bottom is flat as a table, and therefore it carries it to pieces, and bop ... armor plate, can’t be installed, the suspension does not pull ...
                        the use of min-TM-57 in large quantities gave an impetus to the Yu.Rodezians and South African men to begin the development of MPI ...

                        CasspirmkII
                  2. wanderer_032
                    +1
                    8 November 2014 15: 03
                    Quote: Spade
                    On "Iveco" when blown up by a mine (not a large land mine, namely a mine), only arrows in machine-gun installations on the roof die


                    belay ?!

                    Quote: Spade
                    First of all, because they don’t sit on explosion-proof chairs and are not fastened with belts.


                    belay !??

                    And now I’ll tell you what the arrows M2, M19, ATGM “TOU” and so on sit on in all kinds of "Humvees" and "Iveco". etc.

                    The shooters on these machines have a hanging seat-strap, which is attached to the "ring" of the rotating turret ... And they often die not only from explosions, from sniper fire and from fire from roofs and upper floors of buildings too.
                    By the way, during a blast, the shooter is more likely to stay alive than those who are inside. The arrow can simply throw out a blast wave from the car, and for those who sit inside on any kirdyk.
                  3. +1
                    8 November 2014 16: 51
                    Quote: Spade
                    First of all, because they don’t sit on explosion-proof chairs and are not fixed

                    Would you stop your "timid speeches", explosion-proof seat belts ...
                    These are all percentages of improved protection, they must be applied, but there is no panacea here.
                    Nothing protects against the explosion of powerful landmines, from Fri min MBT and heavy MRAPs weighing 25-35 tons each.
                    And then shit - light armored car.
                    By definition he must protect against small arms and anti-personnel mines.
                    Perhaps when hitting a PT mine, it’s not a corpse, but a cripple achievement for cars of this class.
                    Nobody has come up with anything else really, but in magazines, etc. for the general public, yes there, it is normal. Yes laughing
                    1. +2
                      8 November 2014 18: 15
                      Quote: Alekseev
                      Would you stop your "timid speeches", explosion-proof seat belts ...
                      These are all percentages of protection improvements,

                      Interest? Not strapped to the shockproof seat breaks his neck from hitting his head on the ceiling. What damn percent can we talk about? Do you ever remember physics
                    2. 0
                      8 November 2014 23: 59
                      Quote: Alekseev
                      And then shit - a light armored car.

                      when applying new technologies and, x ... become a carrot ....

                      RG-32M with mine protection ... STANAG Level 2B, and when installed, additional ceramic armor and STANAG Level 3a ...
                2. 0
                  8 November 2014 23: 11
                  Quote: Timeout
                  That?

                  no, here it is ... this is iveco Russia in Afghanistan, with all its shortcomings, it has shown itself not bad either in terms of protection and mobility ...
                  and here, Hammer completely failed ... in all respects ... undermining always meant troupes in BM ...
                  and, if a mine war was started against the "Tigers" ??? in the same Chechnya ... "Vodnik" therefore was discontinued ((the main reason voiced)))
                  клик
                  1. 0
                    9 November 2014 05: 52
                    Quote: cosmos111
                    this iveco Russia in Afghanistan, for all its shortcomings, has shown itself not bad either in terms of protection and mobility ...

                    And according to eyewitnesses, the opposite is true, and they learned how to undermine so that no one survives.

                    This seems to be new, but alas, the crew died.

                    Why do we all rely on mine opposition in a guerrilla war ... But we are not threatened by such, unless of course the Caucasus. Or imagine that the enemy mined all the rears with land mines and anti-tank mines, is this really real? So all this is for the armies that are engaged in occupation, and counterinsurgency.
            2. 0
              8 November 2014 10: 52
              [/ Quote]
              Better, but with what? Arguments. [/ Quote] You already gave Lopatov an example that she was tested in Germany to undermine, unfortunately our tiger didn’t have any experience, Iveco’s experience in combat operations with good feedback from participants + was bought by 11 countries (or that everyone buys by personal agreement ) and if it were our car or its price would be 2 times less then there should be no doubt.
              1. +3
                8 November 2014 15: 05
                Quote: Sergei1982
                ..... Iveco’s experience in combat, by the way, with good feedback from participants + was bought by 11 countries

                "Tiger" is made by Arzamas, the manufacturer of our armored personnel carriers, which are purchased
                BTR-70 - 30 countries
                BTR-80 - 40 countries
                And "Tiger" suddenly did not take into account the exploitation of the above?
                1. +1
                  8 November 2014 15: 50
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  And "Tiger" suddenly did not take into account the exploitation of the above?

                  Yes. The attitude there is very interesting: why globally modify or create a new one, if you buy it anyway.
                2. +1
                  8 November 2014 16: 32
                  "Tiger" is made by Arzamas, the manufacturer of our armored personnel carriers, which are purchased
                  BTR-70 - 30 countries
                  BTR-80 - 40 countries
                  And the "Tiger" suddenly did not take into account the operation of the above?
                  1. 0
                    9 November 2014 00: 08
                    Quote: Sergei1982
                    BTR-70 - 30 countries
                    BTR-80 - 40 countries

                    this is all the developments of the USSR technology, Algeria will no longer be ... Rheinmetal is building, a plant for the production of armored personnel carriers "Fush" ...
    2. +5
      8 November 2014 10: 41
      Quote: Karampax
      A country that started buying foreign military equipment loses its independence and becomes a vassal of the "owner" !!!! Serdyukov-stooltkin ......


      Dear, are you sure that the "Serdyukov-Stouretkin" purchased foreign military equipment?

      The Italian Iveco LMV and Agusto Westland helicopters began to be assembled in Russia only because Berlusconi is a friend of Putin.
    3. +8
      8 November 2014 10: 50
      And finally, we all waited for the sanctions of the Western world! "Ivekas" will rust at storage sites, or get jerked for parts. Now think - do we need this? In isolation not only from oysters and cheddar, but also from the supply of military equipment with spare parts? Let the "Tiger" eat like a tiger, but it is made by our own hands (our workers will receive wages) and under our diesel fuel! And there will be no need to invent import substitution! For our army - only ours, Russian! good
  5. +4
    8 November 2014 08: 37
    "... However, in the Russian operating conditions, Iveco LMV has a dangerous enemy - army diesel fuel, which the Italian diesel engine sharpened for EURO 3 perceives more as a poison than a fuel ..."
    This sore is treated by installing a separator, which in my humble opinion is necessary on all diesels operating in the Russian Federation!
    And, as for the "Tiger", then apparently we need expensive work based on the results of exploitation in the troops.
    1. +6
      8 November 2014 08: 47
      Quote: zoknyay82
      This sore is treated by installing a separator, which in my humble opinion is necessary on all diesels operating in the Russian Federation!

      Separator, the idea is certainly good, but there is a flaw. During the war will fuel be made according to Euro III? No respected, there will be so much sulfur and paraffin that no separator will help. So the equipment in the RA should be domestic and, accordingly, of domestic components.
      1. +2
        8 November 2014 10: 58
        Quote: Timeout
        During the war will fuel be made according to Euro III?

        If the plant all the time produced solarium according to one standard, why is it in wartime that it will release according to another? Will you stop the plant in time of war in order to redo the technological chain?
        1. +2
          8 November 2014 13: 54
          Quote: saag
          If the plant all the time produced solarium according to one standard, why is it in wartime that it will release according to another? Will you stop the plant in time of war in order to redo the technological chain?

          No, dear will reduce the number of degrees of purification. To speed up production. A war you know requires a lot of resources. And how many refineries will remain to operate after the massive bombing? And our infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers with the T-72 drove quite well even on a samovar diesel fuel in Chechnya.
      2. MGD
        +2
        8 November 2014 13: 17
        Separators are different ... and you don’t have to chase the brand by overpaying to overwhelm ..
    2. +3
      8 November 2014 09: 04
      Quote: zoknyay82
      This sore is treated by installing a separator,

      The separator only helps with water in the fuel. In our diesel fuel various impurities, including paraffins to fig. I worked with English diesels, so there at -15 fuel filters turn into a candle, even if you insert a wick.
      1. 0
        8 November 2014 10: 02
        Quote: GRAY
        In our diesel fuel various impurities, including paraffins to fig.

        Kerosene is treated
        1. +2
          8 November 2014 10: 08
          Quote: saag
          Kerosene is treated

          From kerosene fuel pump can run out and gum fly.
          1. 0
            8 November 2014 10: 09
            Quote: GRAY
            Quote: saag
            Kerosene is treated

            From kerosene fuel pump can run out and gum fly.

            it’s not over, refuel with kerosene alone
          2. MGD
            +1
            8 November 2014 13: 20
            Arctic - almost kerosene
        2. 0
          8 November 2014 14: 39
          Quote: saag
          Kerosene is treated

          The mind cannot understand Russia - instead of making normal fuel, we invent "separators", "kerosene treatment" and other pribluda ... belay
      2. MGD
        +1
        8 November 2014 13: 19
        What the hell ??? A heating DT (laid on the state) did not try to include ????
        1. +1
          8 November 2014 16: 31
          Quote: MGD
          What the hell ??? A heating DT (laid on the state) did not try to include ????

          We only had coolant heating, the rest is not approved by the manufacturer. I worked with FG Wilson diesel power plants - if tenants fill in the solarium provided by our company (we bought it from BP) then they will have no problems, and if they squeeze money and pour their fuel, they have to constantly buy fuel filters from us smile .
          1. MGD
            0
            9 November 2014 01: 01
            Those. if they buy from BP, then this is already a non-warranty case laughing
    3. MGD
      0
      8 November 2014 13: 14
      Or call a friend in the UAE wink
    4. 0
      8 November 2014 14: 35
      Quote: zoknyay82
      This sore is treated by installing a separator, which in my humble opinion is necessary on all diesels operating in the Russian Federation!

      It’s interesting, but someday they will produce normal fuel, maybe then the problems will disappear?
      1. +2
        8 November 2014 16: 33
        Quote: Bayonet
        It’s interesting, but someday they will produce normal fuel, maybe then the problems will disappear?

        The combat vehicle should not depend on the quality of the fuel.
        1. 0
          8 November 2014 17: 58
          Quote: GRAY
          The combat vehicle should not depend on the quality of the fuel.

          Then it is necessary to install large-volume engines with a low compression ratio. It will be big, heavy, low-speed and not very powerful, but everything will be eaten!
          1. MGD
            0
            9 November 2014 01: 02
            and certainly not a KAMAZ jerker, but something from YaMZ ...
  6. +3
    8 November 2014 08: 48
    I don’t know how in reality, but the author’s analysis is also exclusively from his words, not the fact that everything said is true, where are the military’s ratings?
    1. MGD
      0
      9 November 2014 01: 03
      Letter to the Minister of Defense
      www.drive2.ru/users/vnedorog/blog/302055/#post
      www.drive2.ru/users/vnedorog/blog/409033/#post
  7. leron
    +5
    8 November 2014 09: 12
    I don’t want to prove anything about cross-country ability, just look at the view: tiger, iveko, humvi, Ural http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PODmN6sY0yk
  8. +5
    8 November 2014 09: 16
    The author bent something. From 20 kg of TNT and the tank won’t save. It’s strange that in the photo the rear tires of the car are whole, it is hard to believe that after such an explosion they will remain whole
    1. +2
      8 November 2014 11: 01
      20kg. TNT are able to put this "perpetuation" upside down with wheels. fool stop
      1. +1
        8 November 2014 11: 22
        A "Tiger" in general to tear apart?

        By the way, why would the infantry have body armor if they cannot protect them from a 14.5 mm machine gun?
    2. 0
      8 November 2014 11: 32
      Well, with 20kg, of course, got excited, but I think 6 kg withstand certain circumstances.
      1. +1
        8 November 2014 13: 52
        Quote: Sergei1982
        Well, of course I got excited with 20kg, but I think 6 kg under certain circumstances

        Well, under certain circumstances, a tank shell can withstand .. And what about a sub-caliber will pass through without hitting anyone .. Maybe this can be? Can! So we can withstand the hit of a tank shell!
      2. The comment was deleted.
  9. +1
    8 November 2014 09: 18
    Quote: Sergei1982
    That in the days of Stalin they were not shy about buying BT-5,7 based on Christie, T-26 based on Vickers, half of the planes flew in English engines, in the USSR most Polish landing ships are all atomic. Finnish icebreakers.

    We know all this ... Just don't compare the country that was formed recently and ruined by three (one of them civil) wars, which went to Stalin (USSR), and the country that is now !! Then they bought everything, both material and technology, at the same time they built and developed their own !! Aluminum was worth its weight in gold! It was ashes !! The fighters were made of plywood! Now what ...? We have our own base, our own technologies, our own industry, there is everything !!!! Do whatever you want. But no Serdyukov thought that everything sucks and we will buy super abroad, so chtol? Yes, it’s not even technology, no one will sell us worthwhile technologies anyway ...... The death of the military-industrial complex is the death of the country !!!!!! We will be africa2 in this situation, Serdyukov style !!!!!
    1. 0
      8 November 2014 10: 31
      Only now it is not necessary to compare the country that was formed recently and ruined by three (one of them civil) wars, which went to Stalin (USSR), and the country that is now !! Then they bought everything, both material and technology, at the same time they built and developed their own !! Aluminum was worth its weight in gold! It was ashes !! The fighters were made of plywood! Now what ...? We have our own base, our own technologies, our own industry, there is everything !!!!
      What base is now half destroyed in the 90s, we build ships of 2000 tons for 6-8 years, only recently 5 years ago everything began to rise more or less, and if with equipment for the Air Force and Air Defense everything is less and less good then for the Navy a especially for the ground forces a complete blockage.
  10. leron
    +11
    8 November 2014 09: 21
    continue srach))) SPM-1 is the version for the Ministry of Internal Affairs. CSKA order SPM-2 and this is the fifth protection class. can it be compared with iveco? otherwise, would you compare another 469 oise with iveco ...
    GAZ-233034 - SPM-1 "Tiger" ballistic level
    class 3 protection;
    GAZ-233036 - SPM-2 "Tiger" ballistic level
    class 5 protection;
    GAZ-233014 "Tiger" - an army version of the armored
    a car;
    KShM R-145BMA "Tiger" - command and staff vehicle;
    GAZ-233001 "Tiger" - an increased car
    maneuverability in an unarmored five-door hull
    1. +4
      8 November 2014 09: 46
      all right! the comparison is not correct ...
  11. -1
    8 November 2014 10: 29
    With common sense, both machines are almost unnecessary for the RF Armed Forces. Except that "Lynx" can be used to a limited extent for engineering reconnaissance of routes. And VVshnikov simply cannot afford them. Both one and the other.
    1. 0
      8 November 2014 11: 03
      Well, why do not we need OMON, SOBR, and BB, peacekeeping units, border guards? It is quite possible to transfer to vehicles of this class, for which, for example, riot police BTR-80, or border guards.
      1. +1
        8 November 2014 11: 29
        Quote: Sergei1982
        why for example riot police btr-80

        He can protect better, and support the fire. And for use in places like Omsk or Moscow, it is better to use civilian vehicles with hidden reservation.

        Whatever one may say, neither "Tigers" nor "Lynxes" are needed by them. For places where there is a great terrorist threat, their protection is insufficient, for places where it is absent, it is excessive. And buying cars just "for toughness" is not worth it.
    2. +1
      8 November 2014 11: 19
      However, they can afford our MRAPs, which they choose so well :) It seems illogical.
      1. 0
        8 November 2014 11: 32
        They, if you notice, choose cheap models.
    3. MGD
      +1
      8 November 2014 13: 21
      Lynx-only collectors to transport pieces of paper ...
    4. +1
      8 November 2014 13: 58
      Quote: Spade
      With common sense, both machines are almost unnecessary for the RF Armed Forces. Except that "Lynx" can be used to a limited extent for engineering reconnaissance of routes. And VVshnikov simply cannot afford them. And one and a friend

      But I agree with these, absolutely unnecessary unit! Of course, I understand that someone from the management of "Russian Hammer" wanted to, and to raise money for producers. But I doubt that its efficiency is higher than that of the UAZ, and clearly does not reach the BRDM (after modernization) .. Why this pepelats (except for money) I do not understand ..
  12. leron
    0
    8 November 2014 10: 40
    the conviction from the category of the fact that the chain in full growth you need to go on the attack. in fact, spm-1 is cheaper than spm-2, and that’s why they go to BB.
  13. Alexander
    +6
    8 November 2014 10: 40
    Minus article for outright lies
  14. +5
    8 November 2014 11: 08
    The author is wrong. It is not right for such visible and primary reasons that it would make sense to explain them in elementary high school.
  15. +6
    8 November 2014 11: 12
    <<< The dispute over which armored vehicle - SPM-1 "Tiger" or Iveco LMV - is more suitable for specific Russian conditions, and whether ex-minister Anatoly Serdyukov was right when purchasing foreign samples of armored vehicles, does not subside until now. >>>
    No need to dissemble! The dispute was not about the purchase of samples (samples of foreign technology, and it has always been so, you SHOULD purchase or extract in other ways, as it was in the USSR, in order to study the achievements and secrets of a potential enemy for use at home)! But Taburetkin and Co. were going to buy not samples, but large consignments of foreign equipment, i.e. equip our army with foreign equipment: Ivecs, Centaurs, Mistrals, Leopards ...! As Medvedev said then - if our Defense Ministry does not like the products of our defense industry complex, then it will buy equipment ABROAD to equip our army! Realizing the vulnerability of such a policy, there were talks about acquiring licenses and organizing further "production" (assembly) of the purchased equipment in Russia. There was no need to finish any "Academies" in order to understand the viciousness and perniciousness of such a policy, and today life itself (confrontation with the West, sanctions) has firmly and finally put the DOT in this matter! Russia is DOED today, like the USSR in the past, to arm its Armed Forces only with what is produced by the Russian defense industry complex and, if in something, for example, our "Tiger" is inferior to "Iveco", then this is a reason to get our defense industry to improve it in order to our technique was in no way inferior to the technique of our potential enemy!
  16. +4
    8 November 2014 11: 14
    the first copies purchased in Italy are not suitable for winter use, they did not include snow protection and chains on wheels

    On chains and Lada will drag. But who in our army before moving in the snow cares to wear chains? Senior car when Iveco is hopelessly stuck. Snow virgin snow is almost a highway for a military vehicle, but if a car cannot pass a snowdrift without preliminary preparation, then it is not needed.
  17. +4
    8 November 2014 11: 15
    When I read about aircraft and tanks in childhood, I realized that when equipment was created under Stalin, the technical task was issued: ... the tank should be like this, with such speed, such armor, launch .. etc.

    And with this armored car it is somehow incomprehensible. Maybe he had such armor, because that was the technical task? If there was a task on protection against KPVT, they would hang thick armor and puzzle how to provide mobility at the same time.

    With engines it's always so sad. Well, what prevents you from making a good engine for a car and an airliner ?!
    1. +2
      8 November 2014 11: 33
      Quote: lilian
      Maybe he had such armor, because that was the technical task?

      The terms of reference for the design of the "Tiger" were given by the Arabs.
      1. +3
        8 November 2014 12: 32
        Quote: Spade
        The terms of reference for the design of the "Tiger" were given by the Arabs.

        and did good shovels komentygood even add that it’s difficult .....

        according to BM "NIMR" a really MULTI-PURPOSE machine, with a wheel arrangement of 4x4,6x6, is designed to perform various tasks .... this is achieved by modular design and the installation of additional booking .....
        for protection: basic 1st STANAG 4569 additional set of bronze ceramics, 3rd, 4th STANAG 4569 - on ballistic protection ...
        2b / 3a- for mine protection ....

        I repeat, if we had brought to mind the GAZ-3937 "Vodnik" would have been with us, such a multi-purpose modular BM !!!!!
        but that, obliquely, "Tiger" was created under the TTX, VV, Ministry of Internal Affairs and was called SMP (((special police))) to the army, he was pulled "by the ears" --- lobbying activities, the owner of the GAZ group ....
  18. +4
    8 November 2014 11: 16
    the author is wrong, criticizing the weak armor of the tiger, the type of this machine is intended for the Ministry of Internal Affairs and special forces of the FSB, FSO and army special forces, further criticizes for low cross-country ability in the snow. dear you put a photo of a tiger lying on its belly, turn it, if the snow is loose and very deep on it, even a BMD can lie on its belly, and you can only pull it out with URAL. And finally, do not forget that tigers are not the only armored vehicles in Russia, there are many more, but for the "Wolf" army has the tasks that you require
    1. 0
      8 November 2014 12: 19
      BMD Ural? :-) if only two
      1. MGD
        0
        8 November 2014 13: 24
        and the presence of locks wink
    2. MGD
      0
      8 November 2014 13: 23
      In the snow only motalyga and others walk and run well!
  19. +5
    8 November 2014 11: 17
    Everything necessary for our army needs to be produced by ourselves, and foreign samples must be purchased for analysis and testing on all performance characteristics and other parameters, who don’t understand yet!? Not all stools have been expelled from the troops if we still do not understand.
    1. +4
      8 November 2014 12: 54
      SPM-1 "Tiger" or Iveco LMV: what is bad Italian armored car?


      the strange title of the article ..... about "Tiger" has already been posted, this is an excellent BM, for the Ministry of Internal Affairs .... during installation, mine protection ((spaced armor of the bottom))) and for explosives ...
      in the S. Caucasus, to do without mine protection, not what .....
      for the army "Tiger" is completely unsuitable ...

      according to Iveco LMV is a good, well-made European BM, developed according to performance characteristics, for the Italian army, according to the latest NATO "fashion", only the "survival" capsule is armored, so M-ATV Oshkosh, RG-31,32, etc. are armored. ..
      should be operated in Europe and the deserts of Africa and Bl.Vostok ....
      and him, to Russia .... where the dirt is on the very **** and in the S. Caucasus including ....
      but a good study, and something to adopt is simply necessary ....

      but the armored Hamers, not as they did not show themselves, but were essentially a mass grave of Amers ....
      on the GIF of undermining an armored Toyota, Afghan police ....
  20. +4
    8 November 2014 12: 12
    Quote: Arrow 10
    Everything necessary for our army must be produced by ourselves

    I agree 100%. I don't understand the point in this dispute at all. Didn't the experience of buying "Mistral teach anything? What the hell is German ceramic armor? Who will sell it to us now? How will the supply of spare parts be carried out? The conversation is nothing at all. The same thing, what to argue that it would be nice to buy "tigers" from the Germans during the war, because they were better tanks than T-34s.
  21. +1
    8 November 2014 12: 26
    Yes, calm down, you have already ditched; you already will not trot our rescue general will not buy it.
  22. +4
    8 November 2014 12: 31
    And the author of the case is not a relative of Serdyukov?
  23. +1
    8 November 2014 12: 31
    http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/17643.html

    Actually the link itself to the original post about bulletproof. So to speak, for completeness, it is better to read.
  24. wanderer_032
    +1
    8 November 2014 12: 32
    The LiveJournal blog, which is maintained by a special forces officer under the nickname k_a_r_d_e_n, has an interesting entry about the Tiger's armor protection. When the car entered the department, the employees conducted a traditional bullet resistance test. (Quote)

    The shelling was carried out from AK74M standard cartridge PP (7N10). The bullet pierced the side, the core of the bullet pierced the ballistic package and made a dent on the rear door trim. And this is only 5,45! ... (quote)

    Well, where is the photo / video report from the "tests" of this very "Cardin" from LJ?
    If such a case really takes place, then why not poke, so to speak, clearly in the nose of the engineers at AMZ, who were developing and gave the go-ahead for production?
    All through nonsense. Until there is a photo / video report and I myself do not see that the armor of the "Tiger" was pierced with an armor-piercing 7N10 from the AK / AKS-74, I will not believe that this fact takes place.

    Also, the soldiers were not pleased with the lack of booking a hood. It turns out that a few bullets in the engine compartment is enough to immobilize the machine. (Quote)

    And where did the author see the armored hood of the Iveco / Lynx? Also let him show.

    Fuel consumption in a war, you see, is also an important thing. So, the "Tiger" has an average of about 40 l / 100 km with a mass of 6-7 tons, this is enough for 350 km. (Quote)

    If fuel consumption was measured in difficult road conditions (off-road), then it is logical. And on the highway there are no more than 20/25 l / 100 km.
    In addition, it is highly doubtful that on 140 liters of diesel fuel, having a good turbocharged 6-cylinder diesel with an "intercooler", such a rather lightweight car can generally gobble up so much in 350 km. Even on the highway or off-road, if the donkey is not sitting at the wheel, of course, which can only drown the pedal "to the floor" and knows how.

    IVECO consumes about 15 l / 100 km with a range of 500 km (quote)

    On the highway or flat dry primer, at plus temperature. In off-road conditions (especially winter), you can safely multiply fuel consumption by 2.
    And you get about 30-35 l / 100 km. And then depending on who is sitting behind the wheel, if a donkey that knows how to press the gas pedal, then a fifty dollars will gobble up, no question.
    And according to this, fuel consumption and power reserve at one gas station for these machines are approximately equal.

    Regarding the video, where IVECO lags behind Russian armored vehicles in a snow virgin race, we explain: the first copies purchased in Italy are not suitable for winter use, they did not include snow protection and chains on wheels that are available on similar army vehicles Norway and Austria. The wide bumper when driving in deep snow created the effect of a blade pushing a snowdrift ahead of IVECO, which led to a significant slowdown. (Quote)

    But the "Tiger" also did not have any special or additional equipment for overcoming virgin snow. The machines were in equal conditions and the "Tiger" showed the best results, and this is clearly seen on this video (I personally watched it a couple of dozen times for sure).
    1. wanderer_032
      +1
      8 November 2014 12: 50
      By the way, I climbed on LiveJournal and looked at the photo of the "ballistic tests", and so here are the pictures where the full penetration of the main armor from the inside would have been filmed and there is no Kevlar lining.
      But no, as they say, there is no trial. And I can write anything too.

      And by the way, here is a copy from this link (http://karden.livejournal.com/17643.html) on fuel consumption and range of the "Tiger" at one gas station:

      Fuel consumption at a speed of 60km / h - no more than 15

      Power reserve at speed 60km / h - 1000km

      About 40 l / 100 km as the author of the article, for some reason there is nothing there.
      Yes, by the way smiled "about stuck", if so, then I can say that "drove" the group this car either knows little, or he does not have the proper qualifications for driving such equipment in off-road conditions. Yes, he can perfectly shoot, run, jump, etc., but in order to be able to control such a technique in any road and weather conditions, you also need to have some kind of special training.
      From my personal experience of dealing with such military men, I can say that many of them are "riders" who are still ... wink laughing
      In general, the "pussy" does not obey the owner and is wayward ... laughing
      To tame her, skill and patience are needed. wink
      1. wanderer_032
        0
        8 November 2014 13: 08
        From all the material that I read in the LiveJournal of "Cardin", the really real problem in SPM-1 is the deployment of the landing force.
        Here I fully support him, the "seats" for the landing are really clumsily stuck in the troop compartment. And besides, they are also fixed clumsily. They had to be attached to the sides, and not on the wheel arches, then there would be enough space for everyone.
        1. wanderer_032
          -3
          8 November 2014 13: 35
          In general, "Tiger" VS "Iveco / Lynx" is already a past topic.
          The most successful multi-purpose army vehicle that has been developed in the Russian Federation today is the "Scorpion 2M" and the cars created on its basis.



          1. wanderer_032
            +1
            8 November 2014 13: 54
            By the way, a couple more videos on the Tiger's armor protection:



          2. MGD
            0
            9 November 2014 00: 09
            this Scorpio. That's what the Army and other structures need
            1. +1
              9 November 2014 00: 51
              Quote: MGD
              this Scorpio. That's what the Army and other structures need

              that's about her and posted "Cayman" -5t, it was called ...
              1. MGD
                0
                9 November 2014 01: 17
                at least put dots instead of matyuk, and so the floor of the phrase is cut off laughing
            2. wanderer_032
              0
              12 November 2014 14: 40
              Quote: MGD
              this Scorpio. That's what the Army and other structures need


              This is only for MTR by special order. Unsuitable for mass production.
              As well as for solving most of the everyday tasks of transportation, which should perform a multi-purpose military vehicle.
  25. +3
    8 November 2014 12: 33
    I don’t argue, maybe the Italian is good, but she has one minus the big one is very not ours and is not produced in Russia - if suddenly the war then everyone got into the jokes
    1. MGD
      0
      9 November 2014 00: 05
      The big minus is the internal line-up ... you get the hell out of it, and you pull the driver or others through the salon - it will burn alive ...
  26. +3
    8 November 2014 12: 52
    After dancing with Fran. Mistrals "GIVE-NEOTDAM" has become clear to everyone, even "Euro-liberals in the Russian Federation." that it is necessary to develop YOUR OWN, relying on and even copying the best foreign samples.
  27. 0
    8 November 2014 13: 32
    A video has been walking on the Internet for a long time, where the Tiger makes Iveco in terms of cross-country ability.
    1. 0
      9 November 2014 10: 10
      Quote: Fagot
      A video has been walking on the Internet for a long time, where the Tiger makes Iveco in terms of cross-country ability.

      Whoever orders music dances.
  28. +1
    8 November 2014 13: 56
    The article has a very good point.
    According to information from open sources, an Italian armored car costs 20-23 million Russian rubles per unit, the "Tiger" costs about 5 million rubles

    You can equip the "tiger" with many smart things. Then a legitimate question arises: "what are we going to be clever about?" If the budget is 4 times less, and this will agree very much.
  29. 0
    8 November 2014 13: 59
    what is bad? that gets stuck in the snow =)
  30. 0
    8 November 2014 14: 00
    for 1000 wise men, one simpleton is enough! Taburetkin is exceptionally greedy and stupid ..uka! here is the war and all that and the box came up and .....
    it is necessary to give the right to implement new concepts. just scientific companies will just chop the ration wink
  31. Karbyshevets
    0
    8 November 2014 15: 23
    Denis Aldokhin, well done !!! Such an ardent truth-teller! Yes, of course iveco is better! Porshenko has already awarded you the Order of Saint Dill, and Jane Psaki, for you, is like the Virgin Mary. I will not dispute Denis's article, since I do not want to stoop to his level. Anyway, Denis is now happy that his article has so many comments, the "status" of his articles is rising. COMRADES !!! The statements of Denis Aldokhin and other dogs like him should be trolled, drained and so on, so that this does not settle in immature minds, like the truth in the original source or in other ways to protect society from such preparations.
  32. +2
    8 November 2014 16: 56
    The feeling from the comments and videos that the tasks of the armored personnel carrier are set before the "Iveco", if you want to get to the bottom of the pillar, regardless of preferences. Box with ammunition outside, as well as add. fuel cans are rare for cars and armored vehicles? what makes it difficult to keep the cartridge boxes inside the car and raise them before "use", the hatch is large. Who tried to drag a wounded / killed soldier somewhere, weighing, say, 75-80kg, and even in equipment, inside the car? isn't it taken from outside? and people do not usually try to leave the car, sometimes even on the move? One cannot call the Italian an armored car, the protection against bullets and shrapnel is enhanced - yes, but it is not an ARB / AFV, it does not have an external standard armor, but ceramic armor panels from the inside. Mine protection also cannot be absolute, as in specialized MRAPs, differing in weight categories (4x4 and 6x6, ARBs and armored personnel carriers), a V-shaped plate under the bottom (the "Tiger" does not have it?) Despite the difference in ground clearance (" Tiger "- 0,4m; LMV - 0,47m) negatively affects the passability on snow, because there are no gaps above the bridges. LMV - a military vehicle for patrolling its own rear zone and communications (+ military police), or towing (carrying capacity - 3t) 120-mm Nona-K guns and Sani mortars, 82-mm automatic Vasilek mortars, 23- mm ZU-23-2, for example, in mountain rifle and airborne assault brigades, as a reconnaissance BRM is unlikely.
    I also do not consider HMMWV, Enok LAPV, Renault-Sherpa and Movag-Eagle to be full-blooded armored vehicles. Armored vehicles are "Fennek", "AMZ-Zubr", "Bastion" VLRB and "Panar-VBL" M11, as an example, excluding the MRAP class (ATF "Dingo-2", "Bushmaster" PMV, "Oshkosh" M -ATV, etc.).
    What's wrong with expanding the range of armored vehicles of the ground forces? Or do we have it in bulk? LMV, especially the one produced in the Russian Federation, will be able to occupy a niche between the UAZ-469 car (or replace it) and the Tiger ARV. Gentlemen, or we only change to domestic cars.
    1. +1
      8 November 2014 23: 58
      I will add a little. For the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, in particular for the mountain rifle units of the SV, floating articulated tracked carriers DT-4P and armored DT-3PB * have long been requested - these are the best snowmobiles capable of carrying 2 rifle squads reinforced by 2-3 crews of group portable weapons (ATGM, AGS, NSV, 82 mm mortar). We are again waiting for something that MT-LB will "take out".

      * Bv.206 and armored Bv.206S and BvS.10 (Sweden), "Bronco" ATTC (Singapore).
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. MGD
      0
      9 November 2014 00: 14
      I have already posted a photo of the really necessary machine and the most suitable one for our immense ...
  33. 0
    8 November 2014 17: 37
    I think it’s always closer to our LSHA than a scorpion than to a tiger.
  34. +1
    8 November 2014 17: 37
    good discussion ... as in the old, good ....angry hamster am lacks.....

    hamster, completed the construction of a house ???? at least a line of scribble .....

    but it all began in South Rhodesia and South Africa .... there life made the pale-faced, build cars, with mine protection ....
    tried to book, a Lend Rover, but then ... everyone knows ...
    Here is an interesting article in the topic:http://www.freewebs.com/dudleywall/intafvehicles.htm

    Yes, and about WIKI, who likes to refer ..... make mistakes ....
    "Taipan ZOZ" in WIKI, passes as "Mamba", and this is a prototype participating in the competition for the development of BM, for Australia "Bushmaster" won "Timoney" with MP44 .....


    similar but not "Bushmaster"

    suspension dependent axles, from MAN ...
  35. +1
    8 November 2014 17: 38
    it seems to me iveko closer to lsha-2m than to a tiger
  36. 0
    8 November 2014 17: 42

    But the video from Chechnya and the fact that the YaMZ-530 with a volume of 4,4 eats 40 liters of nonsense on the highway 15-20 liters at a speed of 60 km / h. Maybe 40 liters in the mud but also in the mud obviously 15 liters eats, and twice as much.
  37. +1
    8 November 2014 17: 45
    The purchase of IVECO made our domestic automakers move at least and start creating something new! Look how many new models are now! I will not argue about their quality, but now, at least there is a CHOICE! Otherwise, they would still drive "UAZs"!
    1. Pervusha Isaev
      0
      8 November 2014 18: 36
      Quote: senima56
      The purchase of IVECO made our domestic automakers move at least and start creating something new! Look how many new models are now! I will not argue about their quality, but now, at least there is a CHOICE! Otherwise, they would still drive "UAZs"!


      all our new developments, a tiger, a wolf, a bear, a scorpion, all developments were started before the urine hit the stool in the head to buy willows, so no need to drive ...
  38. 0
    8 November 2014 18: 00
    The story as submitted by the participant:

    the car is real, in 08 in Chechnya it was run-in, and at the same time shelling, on arrival in Chechnya there was a great interest in the souls to fuck this car, the rate started from 1.5 thousand cu, reached 2 thousand cu, 9.08.08 .7.62 they still managed to catch us, two hits from an RPG and multiple hits of a XNUMX mm BZ, including side windows. Result: they scratched the paint of the passenger door from the first hit from the RPG, the front passenger seat was torn from the second shot of the RPG (since after dismounting it left the door is open), the interior of the driver’s seat caught fire, which was quickly extinguished, the paint from bullet hits on the stern was scratched and the side window was damaged, but not thoroughly, the cars were turned on for a short time and drove away to a safe place in front of the spirits. This is such a marvelous car.
    There is an article on the military review about the tiger when it was first run in Chechnya
    1. +1
      8 November 2014 18: 26
      Quote: bmv04636
      two hits from an RPG


      Unlikely. Maybe they shot practice?
      1. 0
        9 November 2014 06: 09
        Quote: Spade
        Unlikely. Maybe they shot practice?

        They wrote about such a case, shot at close range, grenades did not stand up on a combat platoon.
  39. +3
    8 November 2014 19: 52
    I registered now only for this reason: "According to the designers, the LMV M65 IVECO can withstand a mine explosion with a capacity of up to 8 kg in TNT equivalent. In fact, it turned out that the safety margin of the machine is much higher. km north of Qala-i-Nau (Afghanistan), an LMV M14 was blown up by a homemade mine with a TNT equivalent capacity of about 2010 kg. No fatalities, only wounded and shell-shocked. "
    it’s clear that it’s a stuffing, but you need to know the measure of lies. It’s already like in the State Department, without brakes. 20 kg! Yes, after a blast at such a land mine, its fragments would be found on the moon
    1. +2
      8 November 2014 21: 04
      I agree. Article explicit PR iveco. Comparison is absolutely not correct. The tiger rules !!!
  40. +1
    8 November 2014 19: 57
    You need to start with the main thing - armor protection, because such machines are just created to save the life of the crew. Russian experts carried out shelling of IVECO with B-32 armor-piercing incendiary bullets using a 7,62x54 caliber ballistic barrel.
    I would like to ask the author of the article how the 12,7 mm B-32 cartridge (DShK, Utes, Kord machine guns) can be used to fire through a 7,62 by 54 ballistic barrel (PK, PKM, Pecheneg machine guns , SVD and other rifles) ???
    1. +1
      8 November 2014 21: 45
      Quote: Radikal
      I would like to ask the author of the article how to use a 12,7 mm B-32 cartridge

      And who told you that the B-32 exists only in caliber 12.7?

      Cartridges with an armor-piercing incendiary bullet of the 1932 model (B-32) exist in three calibres: 7.62 x 54, 12.7, 14.5.

      http://www.rkka.ru/docs/real/ammo/

      Yes, a machine-gun rifle cartridge with a B-32 bullet in the army is a rare beast, but not mythical. Twice during the service I saw.
      1. +1
        8 November 2014 22: 01
        By the way, there is also an automatic 7.62 x 39 cartridge with a bullet of similar action and the same black and red markings. Only the bullet is not called "B-32" but "BZ", where "Z" is a letter. Denoting "incendiary"
    2. +1
      9 November 2014 00: 03
      http://weapon.at.ua/publ/18-1-0-1673
      Moreover, in the beginning, in the first half of the 70s, for the sake of being able to use an armor-piercing incendiary cartridge (B-32, the bullet very quickly began tumbling in flight), the initial rifling pitch of the SVD rifle was changed from 320 (Mosin) to 240 mm, as stated in damage to accuracy of gross and target (7Н1, 7Н14) cartridges.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  41. 0
    8 November 2014 20: 41
    It is curious what kind of "expert" minus stuck, is it not the author of the article?
  42. Nikolaychuk
    0
    8 November 2014 21: 47
    In Novorossiya, a tank was knocked out with "Utes". It seems to me that the last-class Iveka armor is not the most important thing in modern warfare. Both sides have a bunch of anti-tank weapons and heavy machine guns, rapid-fire cannons - there is nothing to defend against. These cars must fight in urban environments - where the armored personnel carrier is a large and awkward target. And they must be replaced by these agile vehicles.
    It’s best to move around with our armored tigers (because at cost they can be riveted a lot, everyone will fit + interchangeable parts). Than 5 eye to sit at the armor it is not known which armor.
    They say most of the Iraqi "patriots" bought from the United States did not work, thanks to the American chips.
    1. 0
      8 November 2014 22: 09
      Quote: Nikolaychuk
      These cars must fight in urban environments

      Im there Khan immediately. Only a tank. In the most extreme case, the BMP, which follows the tank. Well, the infantry. Which, in fact, is fighting in the city.
      1. 0
        9 November 2014 06: 12
        Quote: Spade
        Im there Khan immediately. Only a tank. In the most extreme case, the BMP, which follows the tank. Well, the infantry. Which, in fact, is fighting in the city.

        That's for sure, only so. No infantry ...
  43. 0
    9 November 2014 10: 04
    The dispute does not subside because those who argue about the procurement of foreign military equipment are traitors to their homeland and at certain times they would have been fairly shot (but do not worry, these times are approaching again). These foreign elements in their time yelled that why do we need the production we all buy abroad. They laughed at China and the quality of its products. But China over the past 20 years has improved product quality and organized its mass production. That is, it is necessary to work, and quality will appear (by the way, we had the same historical practice in the 20th century)! And now we do not have professional workers, the most widespread profession is a security guard at the gate with the corresponding degradation of the population. And how do you think why the population is decreasing (dying), right - because of those who like to buy everything abroad, but don’t think what will happen to the country.
  44. +1
    9 November 2014 17: 34
    The plane of the Soviet ace pilot Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin, three times Hero of the Soviet Union - Bell P-39N "Airacobra" (USA). Does this mean that the country "treacherously" accepted the help of the well-groomed West in the form of machines, equipment, food, tanks, warships and aircraft? And now we are apparently self-propelled, and if we have not buried our modern weapons, then we can afford to re-equip ourselves with the development models of the 90s, early 2000s, can we still have 10-15 years?
    Found Thinking, m-la! from a firing squad. Apparently the images of the enemies have already taken on a distinct outline in your sore head, if you were in 1937, you wouldn’t have a price.

    PS: One thing is "amateur" ..., Motherland is written with a capital letter.
  45. +1
    9 November 2014 20: 12
    Cars manufactured in the USA in the USSR (since 1942), so that it is closer to the topic:
    - "Willys" MA, MB, 4x4 (about 52 thousand units);
    - “Dodge” WC51, WC52, 4x4 (24900 units + 300 units WC-63, 6x6);
    - "Studebaker" US6, 6x6, 6x4 (about 100 thousand units).

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