Military Review

Competitors of the legendary MiG-21. Part Three Su-7: Competition

16


The sharp increase in maximum speed compared to the previous generation of machines, in particular the MiG-19, gave rise to a certain euphoria - both at the customer and at the MAP management. The support was at the highest level, since the interests of MAP also coincided (after all, he needed high rates for reporting), and the customer was the Air Force (who rightly wanted to have a new car in service, which would be a worthy response to the "American challenge" 100-series fighters). It should be noted that the rivals in the person of OKB-155, headed by A. I. Mikoyan, were not asleep: in the summer of 1955, before C-1, experienced E-4 came to the test, and at the beginning of 1956, and E- 5 with the standard engine P-11. In the spring, the 1956 machine literally kept pace with the stages of the factory test program, gradually increasing speed in the unspoken competition.

As a result, the game went on for some time, one can say honestly, and the first winner (they, as already mentioned, became the Sukhoi Design Bureau) was given the right to start the machine into mass production. Soon a government decree was issued, according to which C-1 under the designation Su-7 was launched in a small series at plant No. 126 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. By the middle of 50, this plant, like many others, was the “fiefdom” of Mikoyan: MiG-17 was produced here and prepared for the production of MiG-19. But, in contrast to the “head” factories of MAPA, No. 21 (Bitter) and No. 153 (Novosibirsk), it was not, as it were, “native”: it was far away, and the production volumes were smaller, and the equipment was smaller ... And therefore that they were going to be “taken away”, the Mikoyanovites were fairly calm. Well, it was not necessary to choose sukhovtsy, and the set of working documentation was transferred to the serial production plant in a timely manner. In 1957, before the end of the tests, preproduction began there.



State joint tests of the Su-7 front-line fighter ended on December 28 of the year 1958. Su-7 had a thrust-weight ratio of about one and the load on the wing 290 kg / m2. The aircraft developed a maximum speed of 2170 km / h and had a ceiling of 19100 meters, which was the best indicator for domestic cars at that time. At the same time, during the course of military tests, a number of shortcomings, natural and inevitable for the head series, were revealed. They demanded immediate elimination, both in production and in the ranks. To this end, a team of factory specialists refined the onboard systems and the airframe in parts with complete disassembly of the equipment, the dissolution of the electrical hutches and their re-laying on new routes with thermal protection and soldering in the connectors. At the same time, an improved automatic control system ESWS-1В was introduced and replaced with a low-frequency unit on a wider one due to the replacement of the AL-7F engine with the AL-7F-1 with the new automation system. As already mentioned, the development in the series of MiG-15 and MiG-17 plant number XXUMX carried out after the leading related companies, using their technological development. But in the production of the Su-126 plant acted as an independent serial enterprise, fully providing design and technological development of the aircraft. Ultimately, the entire rush to launch into a series of still very raw machines came out sideways for the G7 - the initial release plan failed more than once due to the need for numerous modifications. In fact, in the 7, the 1959 of the Su-96 aircraft was manufactured.

Competitors of the legendary MiG-21. Part Three Su-7: Competition


Serial vehicles carried armament, consisting of two 30-mm NR-30 guns mounted in the root parts of the wing consoles with ammunition of 65 rounds per barrel (with an allowable cartridge sleeve capacity of 80 rounds). On the ventral beam holders BDZ-56F could be suspended two PTBs of 640 liters each or, in overload, aviation bombs up to 250 kg. Since most of the flights were carried out with PTB due to the gluttonous engine, in the series two more BDZ-56Ks were installed under the wing for bombs of caliber up to 250 kg or ORO-57K blocks with unguided rockets. Initially, ORO-57K were developed in OKB-155 A.I. Mikoyan for the MiG-19 fighter, but later found limited use on the Su-7. Each unit was equipped with eight 57-mm NARS S-5M with a high-explosive warhead. The projectile was detonated by a V-5M mechanical instant fuse. Aiming was carried out using an ASP-5NM aviation rifle scope, and to determine the range to air targets, the aircraft were equipped with a SRD-5M radio range finder mounted in a container of a retractable air intake cone. The Su-7 equipment included the RSIU-4 radio station, the ARK-54I Ilim radio compass, the MRP-56P Marker radio receiver, the SOD-57 and SRO-2 Chrom transponders, as well as the radiation warning station SPO-2 "Siren-2".

In the meantime, the competitors represented by OKB-155 A.I. Mikoyan increasingly "stepping on his heels." As already mentioned, they were the first to start the race for the best fighter - February 14 1955, test pilot OKB GK. Mosolov took to the air an experienced E-2 with a swept wing and an RD-9B engine with an afterburner 3250 kgf, previously installed on the MiG-19. It was a temporary solution, since the projected E-1 fighter was supposed to be equipped with the new AAA airfields. Mikulin AM-11 kgf afterburner 5110 and triangular wing - the latest "squeak" of the aviation fashion of those years. Due to the lack of E-2, they didn’t reach the set maximum speed in 1920 km / h and the 19000 ceiling m. The E-4 fighter variant with a delta wing and the same X-Rum 9 also didn’t “shine” with flight characteristics - its maximum the speed was only 1290 km / h, and the ceiling was 16400 m. Against this background, the results shown by Sukhov's C-1 looked more preferable. The E-5 triangle with a modified wing and the AM-11 TRDF (in the Р11-300 series) did not correct the situation either. The aircraft, because of the still insufficient engine power, did not reach the TTT Air Force and was then regarded by the customer as unsuccessful and unpromising. The serial production of the E-5, which received the designation MiG - 21 in the series, began at Tbilisi Aviation Plant No. XXUMX and was quickly rolled up. At the same time, there were practically no complaints about the complex of flight characteristics of the new Sukhovo machines. Air Force Marshal K.A. Vershinin 31 January 9 of the year in a letter to the Central Committee of the CPSU pointed out that "the Air Force as a customer is interested in fine-tuning a large number of experienced aircraft in order to be able to choose ... In terms of flight characteristics, the Su-1958 has an advantage over the MiG-7 on the 21-150 km / h and the ceiling is 200-1 km, while it may be, after making small changes, a fighter-bomber. The Su-1,5 predisposition is more encouraging than the MiG-7. "



It seemed the fate of the MiG-21 hung in the balance, but the next day K.A. Vershinin together with the chairman of the GKAT P.V. Dementyev sends another letter to the same address, but already with a request to release the 10-15 MiG-21 from the existing reserve. Understanding the secrets of the “Madrid Court” is very difficult. The last request remained unheeded. However, someone “rescued” MiG-21; It is quite possible that OKB-300, which came to the rescue in time with the proposal on the forced version of the Р11F-300 engine, also said its word.

24 July 1958 of the year issued a decree of the Council of Ministers No. 831-398 and nine days later - GKAT order No. 304 on the construction of the MiG-21F aircraft (Е-6, product "72" of plant No. 21) with the Р11Ф-300 engine based on MiG-21. The new Р11Ф-300, the release of which began in 1958, had an afterburner thrust of 6120 kgf, acceptable reliability and allowed to significantly improve almost all flight characteristics of the fighter. 20 May 1958 year V.A. Nefedov tore off the ground E6-1, the first prototype of the fighter, later received the designation MiG-21F. With a forced TRDF, a sharp leading edge of the OT, a two-jump cone and other improvements, the MiG-21F developed the maximum speed of 2100 km / h, reached an altitude of 20700 m and had a flight range with one PTB 1800 km. His armament consisted of two 30-mm guns HP-30 (the same as on the Su-7), NARS, bombs and incendiary tanks. The machine had good stability and control, could be quickly mastered by pilots of combat units. In addition, with almost equal flight characteristics with the Su-7, it was simpler and easier (6850 kg versus 9245 kg). The MiG-21F was better suited for the Air Force FA because it had better flight and maneuverability, lower landing speed and, therefore, required airfields with less long runway (the length of the MiG-21F run was equal to 900 m, and the Su-7 - 1350 m). The Р11Ф-300 engine turned out to be less susceptible to surge, the Achilles' heel of the "seven", and the use of the forward-looking triangular wing added more points to the OKB-155 fighter.

Meanwhile, the continuing problems with the AL-7F on the background of a new competitor did not add supporters to a dry-car machine. It is abundantly clear from the tables below that Sukhoi has a large fighter. Nevertheless, comparing the aircraft of his and Mikoyan, it is clear that the Su-7 maneuverability characteristics turned out to be quite good. There is a significant advantage of the Su-7 in the turn radius, which is maintained with increasing height. But there is a slight lag in climb rate. The Air Force command was satisfied with the new P.O. Dry. However, the military also supported the alternative project of Mikoyan, who was better suited as a front-line fighter. Naturally, the problems arose with the MiG-21, but the number of these aircraft in the parts of the Air Force grew. In 1959, the aircraft was launched into a series at the Gorky Aviation Plant No. XXUMX, launching the launch of one of the most popular and famous jet fighters of "all times and peoples." And by the beginning of 21, the plants had already built more than 1960 (!) Machines. The concept of a light front-line fighter for air combat won out. The MiG-200 was distinguished by a simpler-to-use powerplant, lower fuel consumption, was less noticeable in the air, had better take-off and landing characteristics, and its adoption did not require an increase in runways throughout the country, which ultimately predetermined the choice of military .

In contrast to the success of the MiG-21F in the OKB-51 based on the experienced C-41, which reached the test speed 2230 km / h and the ceiling 19500 meters, the project of the C-21 fighter was developed. But before the construction of the prototype it never came.

Well, how was the situation in the United States, with constant attention to which military customers issued the TT?

F-104G

In the US, Johnson with his F-104 deviated strongly from the initial plans and instead of a light fighter he created a manned rocket to achieve record-breaking performance. In general, overseas rival was the most unfortunate fighter. Actually, all this determined the future of the projects. The Americans took the non-maneuverable F-104A into service with the air defense units (and at the same time pushed it against the common sense to the allies as the main one), the MiG-21 became the “workhorse” of front-line aviation, and Su-7, in their letter, began to remake in a bomber. The latest “clean” Su-7 12 series left the assembly hall in December 1960. Total built 133 fighter, of which 10 pre-production and the first 20 production aircraft had engines AP-7F. Given the huge need of the Air Force for such fighters, the number of built Su-7 is just scanty - they were armed only with two fighter regiments - 523 and 821. Both parts were based in Primorsky Krai, closer to the manufacturer. Part of the aircraft entered the Yeisk Air Force Academy, where pilot training was deployed. Officially, the Su-7 was never adopted.



Today, from the height of past years, one can critically review the results of the work of that time. I remember in 1960-ies in aviation there was a saying: “The designer is Dry, the plane is raw, and the technician is wet,” but we will try to keep from the hasty and light-weight conclusions. It would be possible to refer to the “objective” factors that made it difficult for designers to choose the overall layout and parameters of the new machine. Such, for example, as clearly overestimated requirements of the customer and his lack of a clear concept of using the aircraft, and the OKB team has no practical experience in creating supersonic machines. Already in the process of construction and testing, the situation became much more complicated due to the non-fulfillment of tasks by subcontractors (primarily engines), the weighting of the equipment and the reduction of its characteristics. But all this is everyday life and routine, since the buyer is not interested in the seller’s complexity, the quality of the product is important to him, and any design bureau can make such excuses.

All this, of course, does not remove responsibility from designers for errors made when designing the aircraft, but here we still need to distinguish errors, so to speak, “conceptual”, related to the general level of aviation science and ideas about the subject of design. Such claims can be attributed, perhaps, to the entire generation of aircraft, both Soviet and foreign. Much more interesting for us is the question - who and how solved these problems? As an example, we can testify that in terms of airframe design, the Su-7 was an exceptionally reliable machine. According to the statistics of flight accidents, for all the time of its operation in the USSR Air Force there was not a single case of aircraft destruction in the air due to insufficient strength. And this is despite the fact that at the time of the design of the machine, the designers were virtually unknown to the rate of repeatability of loads for this type of aircraft.

The number of serious “conceptual” errors can be attributed to the relative imperfection of the aerodynamic layout (frontal air intake, and, consequently, large losses of internal volumes due to the long air channel; weak wing mechanization, and, as a result, deterioration of take-off and landing characteristics and d.) These reproaches would be quite fair, since they have practically nothing to argue with, except for the already mentioned references to the lack of practical experience of designers in the development of such machines and the firm, prescriptive nature of TsAGI's recommendations on choosing the layout - only from those tested and worked out at the institute.

Of particular note is the underestimation of the takeoff and landing mechanization. This mistake, which led to high take-off and landing speeds, was the “Achilles heel” of all second-generation cars, both Soviet and American. As a result, we had to struggle hard to improve them, but we failed to solve the problem fundamentally. Another example is the adjustment of the air intake to ensure stable joint operation of the turbofan engines with an axial compressor and inlet device. Here, the OKB learned from its mistakes, much then not realizing it because of ignorance of the subject, and already during the tests it found acceptable solutions to the problems. Similar difficulties arose before the OKB-155 when testing the machines of the “E” series.

More interesting is the question of choosing the engine. Was there an alternative to AL-7F? As is known, Mikoyan, who created the car of a lower dimension, took the P-11F-300 as a power plant. And I didn’t lose it, because, despite the somewhat delayed start-up period, over time, this engine reached the set parameters (except for weight), and in terms of reliability and resource, it was far ahead of its rival. How it all reminds history from front-line bombers ... Of course, from the standpoint of today it is easy to condemn P. O. Sukhoi for his choice of AL-7F, but is this justified? Indeed, at that time, when the choice was still to be made, everything was not so obvious. To ensure the specified characteristics, instead of one AL-7, we would have to deliver two P-11, and this made the machine more difficult and heavy.

The bet made by P. O. Sukhy on the AL-7F with high traction characteristics was justified in creating the high-altitude fighter, which the aircraft originally intended. In this capacity, he would probably be in no way inferior to the T-3 interceptor created in parallel with him.

If, however, to fantasize in the style of an alternative story, then it is clear that the Su-7, due to its higher cost and higher requirements for the runway, could not have become as widespread as the MiG-21. At the same time, a larger midsection of the fuselage, in case of rearrangement of the nose section by the Su-11 type of interceptor, could ensure the placement of a more powerful radar. From 1973, the Su-7 fighter would most likely get a P-23 rocket and be able to fight at medium distances. From the same year, the Su-7 could be equipped with the Р29-300 engine, which would allow raising the flight range to 1500 km without outboard tanks. With outboard tanks it would be possible to get quite a decent range. But the release of the updated Su-7 in these years would no longer make sense: with the same engine and in the same dimension, the more progressive MiG-23 was preparing for the series. I think that Su-21 could not become a long-liver, similar to MiG-7.

What performance could show the Su-7 in the Vietnam conflict is difficult to predict. In the near maneuver battle, he was not inferior to the MiG-21. However, large sizes would allow F-4 pilots to detect it more often and earlier than the small MiG-21. In part, this could be compensated by a more powerful on-board radar, which is mentioned above. In addition, a more powerful engine gave a more powerful heat trace. It would be much more difficult to drop the missiles from the Su-7 pilot's IC GOS from the tail than its counterpart on the MiG-21. Analyzing the fight with "Mirage" is even more difficult. If Mirages were migrating to horizontal turns, then Su-7 had an advantage here, but still it’s difficult for me personally to imagine Sukhoi’s best performance. In any case, the management did the right thing, giving preference to this competition MiG-21



Использованная литература:
Adler E.G. Earth and sky. Notes aircraft.
Markovskiy V.Yu., Prikhodchenko I.V. The first supersonic fighter-bomber Su-7B. "Get out of the shadows!"
Aviation and time // 2011. No.5. "The aircraft of the era of reactive classicism."
Avio. Anthology of Su-7.
Wings of the Motherland // Adler E.G. How was born Su-7.
Tsikhosh E. Supersonic aircraft.
Wings of the Motherland // Ageev V. On the threshold of the "second sound".
Astakhov R. Front-line fighter Su-7.
The history of aircraft structures in the USSR 1951-1965.
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  1. AlNick
    AlNick 6 November 2014 08: 18
    -3
    If you dream up in the style of an alternative story, then it’s clear ...


    In general, horses, people, swords, axes, axes mixed into a bunch. If grandmother had eggs, she would be grandfather. Therefore, a minus.
    1. aleks 62
      aleks 62 6 November 2014 15: 03
      -3
      Carefully read .... There was a lasting impression, despite obvious overtures to Soo, the author ochchen praises Mig (Mikoyan) ..... It would be better to tell how Mikoyan. Using his entry into the top wrinkled competitors ....
      1. Technical engineer
        Technical engineer 7 November 2014 19: 50
        +2
        Quote: aleks 62
        Carefully read .... There was a lasting impression, despite obvious overtures to Soo, the author ochchen praises Mig (Mikoyan) ..... It would be better to tell how Mikoyan. Using his entry into the top wrinkled competitors ....

        Come on? I have not heard. Here Tupolev, he pushed his. Yakovlev also sinned by this. And Artem was normal. Well, he got a MiG-9, so what? And the MiG-15 had one competitor, the La-15, but even here the MiG was more technological. No, Artem did not have to push. It was just his era)))
  2. pahom54
    pahom54 6 November 2014 09: 13
    +8
    An excursion into the history of the birth of these machines is not bad, however, it would not be worthwhile to compare these two cars - SU-7 and Mig-21 ... Even by external comparison they look like a shepherd and a lap-dog ... Each of them has its own advantages.
    Su-7 (7Б, 7БМ) is a typical fighter-bomber of the time, more precisely - an attack aircraft. Heavy and powerful car.
    And Mig-21 is a light and nimble fighter.
    And talking about comparisons of their characteristics is somehow incorrect. Another thing is that there was a battle for orders between two KB ...
    And so, by the performance characteristics to judge who and what is better ... Remember the story when they tried to replace the obsolete front-line bomber IL-28 with the front bomber Yak-28 ... As a result, instead of the bomber, a powerful heavy fighter-interceptor was obtained ...
    1. Zerstorer
      Zerstorer 6 November 2014 10: 07
      +6
      Quote: pahom54
      however, it would not be worthwhile to compare these two machines - the SU-7 and the Mig-21

      Why can't they be compared? Machines were carried out in one competition, at one time. So the author did everything right here.
      Quote: pahom54
      Su-7 (7Б, 7БМ) is a typical fighter-bomber of the time, more precisely - an attack aircraft. Heavy and powerful car.
      And Mig-21 is a light and nimble fighter.

      Su-7 is a fighter. This was later made out of it by a fighter-bomber. As for the maneuvering characteristics, here we must look in more detail at the book on the practical aerodynamics of these machines. And so it turns out that the Su-7 has a smaller bend radius due to less load on the wing.
      1. pahom54
        pahom54 6 November 2014 12: 38
        +1
        Quote: Zerstorer
        Why can't they be compared? Machines were carried out in one competition, at one time.

        I just said about the struggle of the design bureau for orders ... And so, by and large, then it was necessary to compare not the SU-7 with the Mg-21, but the SU-9 - apparently one to one, only in those days Sukhoi cars were much more powerful and heavier than Mikoyan’s cars ...
        In principle, our controversy can last long and tedious ...
        Let us recall the famous "whatnot", which our pilots used in the Korean War (in which we allegedly did not participate) ... MiG-15 and MiG-17 - worked at the same heights, MiG-19 - at the very top. As a result, our aircraft surpassed the American ones at each altitude level ...
        So here - in some ways the SU-7 (B, BM) is good, in something - the MiG-21 ...
        You can’t take one away: both cars are GREAT ...
        1. Gamdlislyam
          Gamdlislyam 6 November 2014 15: 05
          +5
          Quote: pahom54
          Let us recall the famous "whatnot", which our pilots used in the Korean War (in which we allegedly did not participate) ... MiG-15 and MiG-17 - worked at the same heights, MiG-19 - at the very top. As a result, our aircraft surpassed the American ones at each altitude level ...

          Dear colleague Yuri, you were a little mistaken. The MiG-15 (not even the MiG bis) participated in the Korean company, since the MiG-17 was just being tested, and the MiG-19 was not yet ready in metal.
          The first flight of the SI experimental vehicle (I-330), the future MiG-17, took place on January 14, 1950.
          The MAP order N851 of September 1, 1951 ordered the MiG-17 to begin production at five plants: in Kuibyshev, Tbilisi, Gorky, Novosibirsk and Komsomolsk on Amur.
          The construction of the first prototype of the new front-line fighter SM-9/1 (MiG-19) was completed by the end of 1953, and on January 5, 1954 G.A.Sedov first lifted the SM-9/1 into the air.
          February 17, 1954 Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No.286-133 was issued on the launch of a new fighter under the designation MiG-19 in serial production at two aircraft plants - No.21 in Gorky and No.153 in Novosibirsk. Then he was brought to mind for a very long time.
    2. aleks 62
      aleks 62 6 November 2014 15: 07
      +3
      As a result, instead of a bomber, a powerful heavy fighter-interceptor turned out ...

      .... In the army, he was stuck on a drive - "the dove of peace" ..... For very powerful weapons (norm load 1 ton, with an overload of up to 3 tons, and a cannon of 1 piece - 30 mm) ...... The device - "beast "was ..... laughing
  3. RADIOACTIVE
    RADIOACTIVE 6 November 2014 09: 26
    +2
    the first dry experience in designing a front-line destroyer, and the first blunder, but as they say when you do nothing and you are not mistaken
  4. gregor6549
    gregor6549 6 November 2014 10: 11
    +2
    Quote: pahom54
    Su-7 (7Б, 7БМ) is a typical fighter-bomber of the time, more precisely - an attack aircraft. Heavy and powerful car.
    And Mig-21 is a light and nimble fighter.

    I agree to all 100. But considering that on the basis of the SU7, the SU9 interceptor fighter with a delta wing was also created, it can be said that Sukhoi managed to stake out his sector in the assault and fighter aviation, especially since at that time the concept that the fighter was nothing more than a flying platform for missile weapons guided at the target by commands from ground guidance points of the Air Force and Air Defense ACS Air, Air 1M and the like, and close and maneuverable air combat is a thing of the past. In any case, it was these machines (SU 7 and SU9) that allowed the Sukhoi Design Bureau and its aircraft plant to accumulate knowledge and experience, as well as create aircraft production technologies that were very useful to this Design Bureau when creating the SU 27 SU 25 and their modifications.
    1. pahom54
      pahom54 6 November 2014 12: 41
      +1
      Quote: gregor6549
      on the basis of SU7, a SU9 interceptor fighter with a triangular wing was also created, it can be said that Sukhoi managed to stake out his section in attack and fighter aircraft,


      I completely agree...
      And outwardly the SU-9 and Mig-21 - both dad and son - both in size and in the power of the engines ...
    2. Gamdlislyam
      Gamdlislyam 6 November 2014 15: 30
      +3
      Quote: gregor6549
      Considering that on the basis of SU7 a fighter interceptor SU9 was also created

      Dear colleague Gregory, the Su-9 is an aircraft with slightly different characteristics, and it was originally created for other purposes in parallel with the Su-7.
      On August 25, 1956, a lengthy government decree was issued, in which all fighter design bureau was tasked to increase the altitude of created aircraft in extremely short time. By order of the MAP, Sukhoi was determined to raise the ceiling of the S-1 (future Su-7) and T-3 (Su-9) aircraft to 21000 m, for which they should be equipped with a modified version of the engine with increased thrust, designated AL-7F-1 (product 31). To increase the ceiling of the aircraft, the military allowed a number of secondary systems to be removed from it.
    3. miv110
      miv110 6 November 2014 18: 12
      +3
      And in the future, Sukhoi retained its niche by creating the Su-15, which for a long time was the basis of the USSR air defense and more than once participated in combat intercepts with the destruction of violators.
      1. Vasenka
        Vasenka 1 December 2017 14: 02
        0
        Chic car, put on a par with 21m by recognition.
    4. Vasenka
      Vasenka 1 December 2017 13: 59
      0
      The Su-9 did not have a spark, for the development of a red star was given. He killed a lot of pilots. I personally saw two landings with a full U-turn and a fire. In general, a coffin with music. In general, combat pilots have two gradicites: Fighter, NOT Fighter. Mig-17 and Mig-21 fighters with a larger letter.
  5. qwert
    6 November 2014 10: 12
    +3
    Quote: pahom54
    An excursion into the history of the birth of these machines is not bad, however, it would not be worthwhile to compare these two cars - SU-7 and Mig-21 ... Even by external comparison they look like a shepherd and a lap-dog ... Each of them has its own advantages.
    Su-7 (7Б, 7БМ) is a typical fighter-bomber of the time, more precisely - an attack aircraft. Heavy and powerful car.
    And Mig-21 is a light and nimble fighter.
    And talking about comparisons of their characteristics is somehow incorrect.

    They are also different. But, it is worth comparing them, since they were created according to one task. And at that time no one even dreamed that the Su-7 would become a strike aircraft. Both the designers and the Air Force (as can be seen from the article) saw the front-line fighter in the G21. Moreover, it was in this capacity that he was for some time a favorite, ousted the MiG-11. I think that due to the difference in the design approach to solving the same problem, it is just interesting to compare them. Although, it is clear that Sukhoi "missed" this time. But, he had a chance. This is what I say as an engine operator. In R300F-XNUMX there were so many first-time solutions that one can safely say about a high design risk. And in engine building you don't have to go far for examples of promising engines that have not been brought to mind. This was also mentioned in articles about front-line bombers. So, Sukhoi had a chance, but it's good that in the end everything went smoothly for Mikoyan.
    1. pahom54
      pahom54 6 November 2014 12: 46
      +3
      Quote: qwert
      And at that time no one even thought that the Su-7 would become a strike aircraft.


      And he (SU-7BM) was able to carry nuclear weapons, thanks to just his power (engines). In fact, in the 60-70s, Sukhoi and Mikoyan’s machines were very different in weight and in engines, and therefore in terms of armament. Although the guns on the Mig-21 (GSH-23) were more modern than the NR-23 guns on the SU-7 ...
  6. Taoist
    Taoist 6 November 2014 11: 13
    +5
    Well, taking into account the fact that they were walking in aviation at that time practically by touch, computer modeling was not even in the beginning. In fact, ideologically, they are still two different machines. The Mikoyanites always "licked" their cars - they even possessed a certain grace ... Sukhoi worked "head-on" - looking less at weight, aerodynamic and other restrictions. We used to joke that even an iron will fly if you attach an engine of the appropriate power to it.
    So, in the end, it turned out that mostly powerful, heavy and durable (albeit oaky) machines came out of the Sukhoi ... The same 7th, in contrast to the MiG-21, eventually spawned a whole family of machines, due to the size and margin of safety and power greater modernization groundwork ... and the MiG 21, as it was a "dove of peace" so in general, remained with them - after all, even installing a gun turned out to be a decent problem ... At the same time, attention to the little easy-to-operate plane ... And to be honest, I will not undertake to judge which is more important in the end ...
    1. Technical engineer
      Technical engineer 7 November 2014 19: 51
      0
      Here it is design handwriting. And that's fine. Otherwise what competition? Otherwise, what to choose? And what if they all made a bet on the wrong engine? So what? Has the country flown by?
  7. jjj
    jjj 6 November 2014 11: 26
    +1
    We remember and understand how the situation can change dramatically, taking into account the current situation of "Sukhoi" and "Mikoyan"
    1. Taoist
      Taoist 6 November 2014 11: 54
      +2
      Well, if you recall the story of the MiG29 and Su27 ... so there was a fundamental difference from the very beginning and it was in the EDU - while the sad fate of the Mikoyan machine was explained by the economy as a result - there was not enough funding for two parallel branches and it was primarily what was more developed universal. Once again, a larger modernization reserve of the dry machine worked ... But the instant was licked so much that it was much more difficult to upgrade it ...
  8. xomaNN
    xomaNN 6 November 2014 17: 54
    +4
    Correct in the USSR was the bet on the competitiveness of the two leading design bomber fighters. Despite all sorts of undercover and non-real-life moves, aircraft technology improved faster in the interests of the Air Force. The competition of designs and constructors was serious hi
  9. Uzer 13.
    Uzer 13. 6 November 2014 19: 14
    +1
    Interestingly, the F-104 had almost the same characteristics, although it was designed as a high-speed interceptor. At that time it was an accident champion. For any malfunction, Starfighter, having a small wing area, fell like a brick. In the newspapers such messages constantly appeared.
  10. Ze Kot
    Ze Kot 6 November 2014 23: 04
    0
    For Sushka, this is how the flashlight acts ... How does this affect aerodynamics, in comparison with the Mig?
    1. Taoist
      Taoist 7 November 2014 15: 24
      0
      The aerodynamics of supersonic speeds are quite different from the usual. In general, most likely, both on MiG and Su, the lantern turned out to be behind the shock wave - so it did not matter much. And the lanterns were basically the same - just on the MiG it visually seems smaller. I sat in the cockpit of both MiG and Sukhoi - they are approximately the same in size. By the way, the MiG 21 of the first series had one more function - it protected the pilot during ejection at supersonic sound. Leaving the cockpit, the seat captured the lantern with special stops and the pilot found himself in a capsule that protected him from high-speed pressure.
  11. qwert
    7 November 2014 07: 03
    +1
    Quote: The Cat
    For Sushka, this is how the flashlight acts ... How does this affect aerodynamics, in comparison with the Mig?

    The MiG-21 does not appear in the photo, because This is a late modification of the MiG-21. At the first MiG-21F-13, it was also drop-shaped and provided excellent visibility. Unfortunately, I had to sacrifice a review in order to increase the fuel supply, which was placed in the cistern behind the lantern.
    In general, that on the Su-7, that on the Su-9, that on the Su-15 only a flashlight acts, and nothing spoils the aerodynamics. So in this regard, Sukhoi’s machines are very perfect. Nothing extra....
  12. Ze Kot
    Ze Kot 7 November 2014 23: 54
    0
    Thanks for the explanation !
  13. Eug
    Eug 18 October 2021 15: 23
    0
    Suoi originally used two P11-300s on the Su-15 ..