Military Review

Punch in the nose

59
Punch in the nose


This article is a tribute to disputes about the need to book the ends of cruisers and battleships of the first half of the twentieth century.

How dangerous was the damage to the nasal tip of the ships? What consequences would numerous fragmentation holes in the area of ​​the stem lead to? Extensive flooding and dangerous trim on the nose, a drop in speed? How critical were the consequences for the ship?

Why were the corps of some warships (German Hipper and Scharnhorst TKRs) protected by armor (20 ... 70 mm) to the very bow, while their mighty rivals on the other side of the ocean (American Baltimore-type TKRs or LC type "Iowa") actually had no protection outside the armor stronghold?

Whose approach was correct? Was it worth “smearing” the armor around the ship, covering the chain-box and storage rooms in the bow? Whose experience could be useful in creating promising ships in the twenty-first century?

As a small study, we will look at a couple of extreme cases where the leaks that have opened have led to FULL flooding of all the compartments in the nose, or when the ship completely lost its nasal tip due to catastrophic hull damage. Nevertheless, the results of these terrible incidents were directly opposed to the tragic expectations of the public.

Hurry to see!

The return of "Seidlitz"

... The fight flared up with a new force. Queen Mary fired from his gigantic guns against the German Seidlitz battle cruiser, inflicting terrible damage on the enemy over and over again. Getting into the side in front of the foremast caused severe destruction of light structures in the forward part of the hull. Water poured down the main deck, flowing down a waterfall into the cellars and posts on the lower decks of the ship.

New hit - ignited the charges in the left side turret GK. The Germans have time to flood the cellar, avoiding disaster.

Heavy splash from falling 343-mm projectile on the left side. An underwater explosion ripped the outer hull shell, leaving a wound length of 11 meters.

The fourth hit of the projectile with "Queen Mary" - 150 mm tool # 6 of the left side is broken.



The Germans also did not remain "in debt", responding with powerful volleys of their magnificent 280 mm guns. The Marshes "Seidlitz" and "Derflinger" saw German shells fired at the armor and went deep into the body of Queen Mary. The next second, nothing happened, Queen Mary answered with another salvo. And then suddenly exploded and disappeared in the flames of a flame and a cloud of thick smoke. A hail of various sorts of debris and parts of a dead ship rained down on the Tiger, walking in the wake of the LKR.

The sailors of Kriegsmarine stared in shock at the results of their own actions, still not believing that the huge ship with a crew of 1200 people. could just disappear in one second ...

But for a long time to rejoice in victory, they were not destined. Just a couple of minutes, "Seidlits" shuddered from a new explosion. The British destroyer Petard (according to the other version - “Turbulent”) broke through and struck the starboard of the battlecruiser, in the 123 area of ​​the track. under the armor belt. The torpedo warhead weighing 232 kg reversed a hole in the underwater part with an area of ​​15 square. The nasal power station and 150-mm gun №1 on the starboard side have failed. As a result of extensive flooding, "Seidlits" received 2000 tons of water, which increased its draft by the nose by 1,8 m (at the same time lifting the water from the water by 0,5 m).



On this luck finally left the Germans. An 5 squadron of British battleships appeared on the horizon — four of the most modern super dreadnoughts of the Queen Elizabeth type. Over the next hour, the “Seydlitz” received seven direct hits with 381-mm shells, its decks turned into rubble of bent steel. The greatest problems were caused by the projectile, which pierced the board in 20 meters from the stem and in this place formed a huge hole 3 x 4 m. It is this hole that will later become one of the main reasons for the extensive flooding in the Seidlitz nose.

By six o'clock in the evening, the British "Quinas" were out of battle, and the beaten-up "Seidlits" entered into a new battle with the battlecruisers of the Grand Fleet. Before nightfall, he managed to get another eleven "plumes", incl. eight - 305 mm caliber shells, two - 343 mm, and one 381-mm projectile fired by the Royal Oak battleship.



One of the 305-mm shells exploded on the anti-torpedo network laying, forming a gap of 12 m length between the outer skin sheets, and water began to flow in the middle part of the hull.

The 343-mm projectile from the Princess Royal destroyed the bridge: both gyrocompasses were damaged by shaking, and the maps in the navigation room were splashed with the blood of the people there to such an extent that nothing could be disassembled on them.

But the 305-mm projectile with the St. Vincent LKR had a particularly serious impact, causing a huge fire in the stern tower of the Civil Code, as a result of which its entire calculation was lost, and the tower itself was completely out of order until the end of the battle.


Damaged barrel of the Zeidlitz gun


Total: 22 large-caliber rounds and one torpedo hit the German battle cruiser Seidlitz per day, not counting a pair of shells of 102 and 152 mm caliber. Losses among the crew amounted to 98 killed and 55 wounded. The battlecruiser continued to follow his fleet, gradually plunging its nose into the water and reducing speed - to 19, then to 15, 10, 7 knots ... By the morning of the next day the battlecruiser had barely crawled aft at 3-5 knots, with an 8 ° roll to the port side. An unstoppable stream of water rushed through the decks, penetrating through numerous large holes in the sides of the ship. The shattered bulkheads could not stand it, the tightness of the waterproof compartments was broken ... By 17:00 on June 1, 1916, the estimated amount of water entering the Seidlitz’s hull amounted to an incredible 5329 tons or 21,2% of the standard displacement of a linear cruiser! Record.


Blue highlighted compartments that took the water to align roll and trim




How did Zeidlits manage to make a miracle and, in such a state, to return to the base with their own moves? In spite of all the vicissitudes, damage, 8-point wind and two shoals, which had to sit, due to anomalous precipitation nose (14 meters) and the absence of good navigation aids! ..

Thanks to the professionalism of the cruiser commander - captain 1-th rank von Egidi and competent actions of the survivability battalion under the command of corvette-captain Alwelsleben. Thanks to the courage and resilience of sailors who did not sleep for four days after a hard battle, continuously keeping their ship afloat. Thanks to the selfless actions of the members of the machine team that worked and died, standing waist-high in boiling water.

SMS Seydliz turned into a legend, and his incredible return forever entered the history as a model of the struggle for vitality.

Stub of the cruiser "New Orleans"

The night battle at Tassapharong was the third in the number of losses among the sailors of the US Navy after Pearl Harbor and the defeat at about. Savo. The Yankees, as usual, honestly "blew out" the battle, having on their side quantitative and technical superiority over the enemy.

The plot was this: in view of the appearance of the Henderson Field airfield and the transition of air supremacy into the hands of the Americans, the Japanese had no choice but to switch to the tactics of the Tokyo Express. Formations of high-speed destroyers that could deliver cargo to the fighting units on Fr. Guadalcanal and even before dawn to leave the American coverage aviation.

30 November 1942 of the "Tokyo Expression" of eight destroyers under the command of Rear Admiral R. Tanaka in the dark "ran" on the American squadron (TKR "Minneapolis", "New Orleans", "Pensacola" and "Notrehampton" under the cover of a light cruiser " Honolulu "and four destroyers).

Despite the absence of radars, the Japanese were the first to understand the situation and deal a powerful blow to the US Navy, using tactical mistakes and outright stupidity of the commanders of American ships.

While the Yankees were desperately trying to hit the enemy’s only detected destroyer, the Minneapolis and New Orleans cruisers, one after another, got hit by “long spears” - Japanese oxygen torpedoes of the 610 caliber. The Pensacola cruiser moving behind them found nothing better than to pass between the damaged ships and the enemy. The Japanese did not miss the chance and immediately released into the dark silhouette “long spear” that appeared in front of them, which left the propeller off the Pensacola and turned the engine room of the cruiser into fiery hell. In the burning fuel oil burned 125 sailors.

Surprisingly, after all this, the fourth cruiser, the Notreampton, continued to move as in a parade, without changing course, and not even trying to evade torpedoes blown out by the Japanese. The end result is obvious - having received a couple of “long copies” in the engine room area, the cruiser was completely out of order, lost its power, communication, and helplessly whirled in place on the only working propeller. By morning his roll had reached 35 °, and he sank 4 miles off the coast of Guadalcanal.

The Japanese lost the 1 destroyer ("Takans") and 197 people in the night battle.

The Americans lost a heavy cruiser, and the three surviving wounded warriors forever went down in history as outstanding examples of the struggle for the survivability of ships. Irrecoverable losses among the personnel amounted to 395 people.

The cruiser "New Orleans" looked the most terrible after the battle.



The Japanese "spear" struck the cellar area of ​​the bow towers of the Civil Code. The explosion of the 490-kg of the warhead, coupled with the detonation of ammunition, completely tore off the nose of the “New Orleans” - right up to the tower of the GC No. XXUMX. Cruiser troubles did not end there. The torn-off piece of the hull led to the side and with a force hit the side of a moving cruiser, forming a series of holes throughout its hull. Leaving under water, the 2-ton "chip" touched the screws, and the blades of the internal screw on the port side turned out to be bent.

I had to see it. I was moving very tightly along the silent second tower and was stopped by a rescue rope, stretched between the port rail and the turret. Thank God that he was here, one more step of mine, and I would fly my head down into the dark water from a thirty-foot height. Nose "gone." One hundred twenty-five feet of the ship and the first bow artillery tower with three eight-inch guns "left." Eighteen hundred tons of the ship "left." My God, all those guys with whom I passed the training camp, all died.

Herbert Brown, sailor from the cruiser "New Orleans"

Despite the extensive destruction, the loss of a quarter of the hull length and the death of 183 sailors, the cruiser's stub cautiously moved the 2 hub to Tulagi, where the advanced base of the Americans was located. The 35 miles transition was completed by the next morning. After carrying out operational repair and construction of a temporary "nose" of coconut logs, "New Orleans", after 12 days, again went to sea and headed to Australia, where 24 arrived in December 1942 of the year safely.

The renovation of New Orleans was completed by the summer of 1943, at the shipyard in Puget Sound (Washington). The cruiser returned to service and later took part in many major campaigns and naval battles of the Pacific theater of war - Wake, Marshall Islands, Kwajalein, Madzuro, raid on Truk, Iwo Jima, the Philippines, Saipan and Tinian ... 17 fighting stars! One of the most honored cruisers of the US Navy.


USS Minneapolis (CA-36)


As for his "colleague" - a heavy cruiser "Minneapolis", which was torpedoed in the same battle at Tassafarong, survived the detonation of the BC and also lost its nose. Curiously, unlike the New Orleans, the severed nose of the Minneapolis did not sink, but, having cracked, was wound up at an angle of 70 ° under the bottom of the ship. Despite the troubles (including a torn off nose and a ruined engine room), this ship also managed to reach the shore, and after repair it was back in service.

Epilogue

The main causes of the death of ships in battle are strong fires, instability and detonation of ammunition.

As can be seen from the above examples, damage in the nose part is not included in this list. Even after extensive flooding and destruction in the nose, ships, as a rule, retain the lion's share of their combat capability and do not even try to go to the bottom.

What to say about small fragmentation holes and explosions of land mines of medium / universal caliber! The damage caused by them is categorically incapable of delivering significant troubles and causing a loss of travel and the combat capability of a large warship.

The "German scheme" with "smearing" splinter armor over a large area of ​​the board was a mistake. This reserve was worth spending on strengthening the protection of armor stronghold, the truly important compartments and mechanisms of the ship.

Finally, regardless of the severity of the damage, a well-tailored ship with a professional and dedicated crew is capable of demonstrating survivability wonders.

PS In the title of the article - the battleship "Wisconsin" after a collision with the destroyer "Eaton".




Heavy cruiser "Pittsburgh" returns to base after meeting a tropical storm
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  1. saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 31 October 2014 09: 13
    +41
    Thanks. About "Seydlitz" is amazing, the courage and heroism of the Germans commands respect.
    1. indeveral
      indeveral 31 October 2014 10: 37
      +8
      My favorite ship. In the week I downloaded a kit for making a model from cardboard. This weekend I will bookmark. I hope to build a New Year.
      1. Estik
        Estik 31 October 2014 12: 41
        +2
        Hi, where can I download the kit?
        1. indeveral
          indeveral 31 October 2014 13: 20
          +10
          Сайт http://laras-paper.com/news/syedlitz_jsc_253/2013-12-31-5560
          A bunch of everything. Such a number of sets for different ships, I have not seen anywhere else. I pumped up all the basic ones that I like. I will slowly build it until my wife drives them out of the house with them (just kidding).
          1. BYV
            BYV 31 October 2014 15: 16
            +7
            A little off topic, but I also decided to assemble the ship, although I love sailing ships more. I bought the assembled model of the battleship Gloria. I have been collecting for a couple of months - I have no time, and no experience.
            1. BYV
              BYV 31 October 2014 15: 19
              +4
              Today, the model looks something like this.
              1. indeveral
                indeveral 31 October 2014 16: 09
                +1
                Klas !!! And I love warships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries more. Although perhaps after Seidlitz, I’ll take care of the atomic cruiser Peter the Great.
              2. indeveral
                indeveral 31 October 2014 16: 09
                0
                Klas !!! And I love warships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries more. Although perhaps after Seidlitz, I’ll take care of the atomic cruiser Peter the Great.
    2. vrach
      vrach 31 October 2014 11: 50
      +5
      And the Blucher during the battle at the Dogger Bank? The number of torpedoes, God forbid, the memory of those who got into it is about 12 (!!!), not counting other suitcases.
    3. Akuzenka
      Akuzenka 31 October 2014 23: 18
      0
      The only nation (after our Soviet, with the exception of the Bandera) that the Germans respect, apart from the Hitler period. I respect, but I do not bow. We are up to alozievich, if we fought with them, then honestly, but basically we were friends. And how many Germans did so much good to the Motherland !!!
      1. jjj
        jjj 1 November 2014 00: 01
        0
        Do not be surprised by the genetics between Russians and Germans (northern) there are fewer differences than between Russians and Ukrainians. In fact, the Prussians are our blood brothers
        1. Santa Fe
          1 November 2014 06: 36
          +4
          Quote: jjj
          In fact, the Prussians are our blood brothers

          What are they to us brothers)))

          A good example is the University of Freiburg, date of foundation - 1457 year
          Recall when the first university appeared among the Eastern Slavs?



          The Germans are a very ancient developed civilization, which has nothing to do with the Slavs. As for genetic tests, one can also find kinship with chimpanzees. The closest related languages ​​of German are English and Dutch (Strasse - Straight - Straat, on our street). So do not fraternize with those who do not really want it

          Every Russian family has a dead grandfather-great-grandfather. When you see such pictures, trembling takes, and you are already ready to intermarry with them.
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 2 November 2014 21: 26
            +3
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            A good example is the University of Freiburg, date of foundation - 1457 year

            And what does Freiburg have to do with Prussia? Prussia ended with Magdeburg EMNIP.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Every Russian family has a dead grandfather-great-grandfather. When you see such pictures, trembling takes, and you are already ready to intermarry with them.

            There Ukrainians are doing this to each other now.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Germans - a very ancient developed civilization that has nothing to do with the Slavs

            Everything is complexly intertwined, if we take Attila's time then;
            In 360, a war broke out with the Alans, a group of Turkic tribes who lived between Itil and the Dnieper. But, despite the superiority in the number of troops and better preparedness for war, the Huns won the final victory in 370. Their mobile horse detachments began to control the steppes of the North Caucasus from the Khazar (Caspian) Sea to the Sea of ​​Azov. Then began the Gothic kingdom, created by King Germanrich. It stretched from the Baltic Sea to the Sea of ​​Azov. The Ostrogoths stood at the head of the power, whose subjects were the Visigoths, Vandals, Scythians and other tribes.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Recall when the first university appeared among the Eastern Slavs?

            One hundred years later, so what?
            In the XII century, when in Western Europe there were only two universities
            (Solerno, Bologna), then in the Cordoba caliphate alone –70 libraries and 17
            higher schools. Avicena's medical "Canon" was studied in European universities for the 18th century, that is, for more than 600 years.

            Then, by your logic, who are the Europeans in relation to the Persians?
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The closest related languages ​​of German are English and Dutch (Strasse - Straight - Straat, on our street)

            German and Dutch are related and English is not.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            So do not fraternize with those who do not really want it

            Of course, it is not necessary if someone does not want to, but there were moments in history when our and German people fraternized (World War I). requestAnd your article good
            1. Santa Fe
              3 November 2014 06: 53
              +1
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              And what does Freiburg have to do with Prussia?

              Germany
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              Germans - a very ancient developed civilization that has nothing to do with the Slavs
              Everything is complicated

              Nothing complicated - it is not so important who kneaded whom in ancient times, although it is also obvious there that the Germans and other Goths "burned hard" already in the first centuries AD, when little was heard about the Slavs

              Much more important is the development of civilization - cities (level and number), universities, important events. They are in the app. Europe at that time (9-10 century and so on) was incomparably larger. Which is understandable - they appeared earlier and therefore began to develop earlier
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              Who are the Europeans in relation to the Persians?

              Distant descendants. Finally, all languages ​​go back to a single proto-languagebut what does this prove?
              thousands of years passed, each went his own way
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              In the XII century, when in Western Europe there were only two universities

              The source is lying. Offhand - Oxford and Cambridge, Sorbonne, Sick, etc.
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              One hundred years later, so what?

              Yes of course. 18 century.
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              German and Dutch are related and English is not.

              Here you are, Mikhail, wrong 100%
              Any linguist will say that these three are a Germanic group of languages. Yes, and without linguists - they are similar one to one, and words and grammar
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              there were moments in history when our and German people fraternized

              The fraternities of sodlats in the WWI - a consequence of the general illogicality of that positional war
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 3 November 2014 11: 16
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Germany

                When the University in Freiburg was formed, this city was not part of Prussia.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Nothing complicated - not so important

                Again.
                Then began the Gothic kingdom, created by King Germanrich. It stretched from the Baltic Sea to the Sea of ​​Azov. The Ostrogoths stood at the head of the power, whose subjects were the Visigoths, Vandals, Scythians and other tribes.
                Imagine the territories located between the Baltic and the Sea of ​​Azov, this is the beginning of the 5th century AD, the first mention of Kiev is the end of the 5th century.
                Quote: saturn.mmm
                Who are the Europeans in relation to the Persians?

                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Distant descendants.

                A good example is the University of Freiburg, date of foundation - 1457 year
                Recall when the first university appeared among the Eastern Slavs?
                The Germans are a very ancient developed civilization, which has nothing to do with the Slavs.

                I asked in the context of a developed civilization.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                The source is lying. Offhand - Oxford and Cambridge, Sorbonne, Sick, etc.

                Do not lie. They became higher schools only in the 13 century.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                that the Germans and the rest of the Goths "burned not according to the decree" already in the first centuries AD, when little was heard about the Slavs

                Slavic tribes were part of the Goths at that time (Ostrogoths). After the death of Germanrich, his successor became Vitimir (the name says nothing)?
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Yes of course. 18 century.

                Vilnius University - somewhere 1570-th year.
                If the library of Ivan the Terrible was discovered, much could be clarified in the history of Russia.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Here you are, Mikhail, wrong 100%

                German words in English are 30-40%. They are so similar that a German who has not studied English will not understand the Englishman. German, English and Russian belong to the Indo-European language family.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                The fraternities of sodlats in the WWI - a consequence of the general illogicality of that positional war

                The investigation is not so important, it is important that fraternization is possible, hostility towards the Russians is somewhat contrived, the ideology machine has worked. The Germans' idea of ​​dirty Russians is from the agitation of Soviet Russia. Before the revolution, the streets of Russian cities were clean, there were problems with the roads, and they were gradually being solved, university education was not inferior to the European one.
                1. Santa Fe
                  5 November 2014 05: 31
                  0
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  not part of Prussia.

                  And then?
                  we are talking about the Germans
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  The Ostrogoths stood at the head of the power, whose subjects were the Visigoths, Vandals, Scythians and other tribes.

                  1. Ostrogoth-Ostrogoths - what is the relation to the Slavs
                  2. There was such a "power" that there were two burial mounds and archaeologists are still arguing who was who. Everything is at the level of guesses and legends.
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  After the death of Hermanrich, Vitimir became his successor (the name does not mean anything)?

                  before paragraph, paragraph 2
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  The first mention of Kiev is the end of the 5 century.

                  1. settlements on this place have been from the stone age
                  2. As a city, it formed closer to the 9-10 centuries.
                  3. Kievan Rus, by the way, has little to do with Muscovy. These are two parallel stories.
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  The Germans are a very ancient developed civilization, which has nothing to do with the Slavs.
                  I asked in the context of a developed civilization.

                  I did not understand the question
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  Vilnius University - somewhere 1570-th year.

                  And where do the Slavs
                  Secondly - how many by that time there were universities in the west. Europe ??
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  Do not lie. They became higher schools only in the 13 century.

                  This is cunning.
                  All of these Oxfords and Bologna were real scientific and educational centers of the time, fully qualified for the university title (professors from all over Europe lecture to students)
                  It is clear that they did not have state. accreditation and licenses of Rosobrnauka))))
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  German words in English 30-40%

                  Their Hub - Ai Heve
                  the structure of languages, grammar - everything is identical. This is a single German group. And German and English have an order of magnitude more similarities than German and Russian (where there are also a bunch of German words: the same post office - post amt)

                  What else is there to argue about?
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  hostility to the Russians is somewhat contrived

                  I think they don’t even bother about this. It is necessary to fight with the Russians - they will fight. It is necessary to conclude a mutually beneficial deal - they will do it.

                  But to be friends, like shaving with staff - never
                  1. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 5 November 2014 14: 41
                    0
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    And then?
                    we are talking about the Germans

                    It all started with ...
                    Quote: jjj
                    In fact, the Prussians are our blood brothers

                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    There was such a "power"

                    A real force that opposed the Huns who conquered Europe almost to the French borders. After the Huns, everything was mixed up, the library of Ivan the Terrible could reveal some things in places (the oath of the Swedish king in Latin letters but on the old Russian EMNIP)
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Kievan Rus, by the way, has little to do with Muscovy. These are two parallel stories.

                    They could not be parallel in connection with the fact that they are scattered in time. Cities of Kievan Rus: Veliky Novgorod, Kiev, Pskov, Chernihiv, Polotsk, Vladimir, Suzdal, Smolensk. After Russia broke up, then there were only references to the place Moscow.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    I did not understand the question

                    Not such Germans are ancient and developed at that time, relatively.
                    Artillery appeared in Russia in 1389, at the end of the reign of Dmitry Donskoy. Thus, medieval Russia lagged behind Western Europe in the use of artillery by about 50 years.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    And where do the Slavs

                    Belarusians as well as Poles are also kind of like Slavs. It was the main Belarusian university, there were other schools and Orthodox including (Brest (1591), Mogilev (1590-1592), at Rogatinsky (1589), Gorodoksky (1591), Peremyshlsky (1592), Komarninsky (1592), Belsky (1594), Lublin (1594), Kamenetz-Podolsky (90th years of the XNUMXth century), Galich (end of the XNUMXth century)) but the pope was in no hurry to recognize them as universities.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    This is cunning.

                    Not that it was cunning, they simply were not officially considered to be the highest at that time even despite the high level of education.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    What else is there to argue about?

                    English is a branch of the Germanic, but the German will not understand the Englishman in modern times and the Dutchman will understand.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    But to be friends, like shaving with staff - never

                    Because shaving with staff so far managed to prevent this.
        2. BIG
          BIG 1 November 2014 08: 11
          0
          Quote: jjj
          Prussians are our blood brothers

          Yes, by blood - kinship with the north and east of Germany is very close, for these regions are largely populated by former Slavs. It is enough to recall that 1000 years ago a Slavic settlement existed in Berlin, tribes of Pomeranian and Polab Slavs, and even today there are Sorbians in Germany - Slavs who have not lost their identity.
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 1 November 2014 08: 39
            0
            the one who teaches you THIS lead to the FSB (for a start, spit in the face and break your nose). then apologize to your great-grandfather. and take your time to shave your head

            and it is not necessary with Nazism / anti-Semitism / Slavophilism and other racial theories to litter all the topics in a row
      2. Santa Fe
        1 November 2014 06: 53
        +1
        Quote: AKuzenka
        The only nation (after our Soviet ones, with the exception of the banders) that the Germans respect, except for the Hitler period,

        I hasten to please, but the Germans do not greatly respect the Russians
        Too different peoples, the Germanic ethnos, firstly, 800 years older. Secondly, psychology is very different - nothing like it ("what is good for a Russian, death for a German"). For us, they are crazy pedants, obsessed with cleanliness and order. For them, we are mediocre, lazy and dirty. Purely everyday prejudices, however, you cannot argue
        Quote: AKuzenka
        We are up to alozievich, if we fought with them, then honestly, but basically we were friends

        Fuck as friends - from the Teutonic Order to the Napoleonic invasion and both world wars

        Nobody brought so much blood and evil to the Russian land as the Germans
        Sworn friends

        piercing newsreel from Stalingrad - from the moment of 3: 45. Tell these soldiers about fraternizing with the Germans. In every Russian family there are dead
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 2 November 2014 22: 02
          0
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          I hasten to please, but the Germans do not greatly respect the Russians
          Too different peoples, the Germanic ethnos, firstly, 800 years older. Secondly, psychology is very different - nothing like it ("what is good for a Russian, death for a German"). For us, they are crazy pedants, obsessed with cleanliness and order. For them, we are mediocre, lazy and dirty. Purely everyday prejudices, however, you cannot argue

          These are echoes of the education of the Soviet era, crazy pedants, etc. these are imposed stereotypes. In our relations, everything is not easy with culture either.
    4. yehat
      yehat 3 November 2014 13: 44
      +1
      and what were their options? if the ship sank, most would die.
      that’s how they fought!
  2. 89067359490
    89067359490 31 October 2014 09: 21
    +5
    Well, only the ship is important, but also its sailors.
    1. BIG
      BIG 1 November 2014 07: 59
      0
      Quote: 89067359490
      German ethnos in the first years 800 older

      Please explain what kind of figure is this?
      1. Santa Fe
        1 November 2014 08: 23
        -1
        Quote: BIG
        Please explain what kind of figure is this?

        Germanic tribes have been known since the beginning of our era.
        Data on the Slavs - closer to the 8-9 centuries.

        ps / Pseudoscience and hyperboreans cannot be cited as an example.
  3. Prager
    Prager 31 October 2014 09: 29
    +4
    plus to the author for an interesting article.
  4. vrach
    vrach 31 October 2014 09: 38
    +4
    In the Second World War, something similar happened with the cruisers of the USSR, with "Slava" and it seems "Maxim Gorky", one was blown off the stern by a torpedo of a submarine, the other with a mine. And also wonders of survival.
  5. qwert
    qwert 31 October 2014 09: 39
    +10
    However, the battleship with a torn nose can no longer conduct an active battle. There is no possibility of maneuvering, the trim interferes, or even makes firing impossible. Bulkheads still hold, but if you give a salvo with the main caliber ... then you can let yourself sink to the bottom. If he wasn’t finished off in battle, then this is easy prey for aviation and submarines, and possibly destroyers. Thus, the ship can survive, but at the same time ceases to be a combat unit.
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 31 October 2014 18: 14
      0
      Quote: qwert
      Thus, the ship can survive, but at the same time ceases to be a combat unit

      It's right. But the surviving ship can return to the base and undergo repairs, and the crew will survive. If it is sunk, then everything is the end.
    2. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 20: 58
      0
      Quote: qwert
      a battleship with a torn nose can no longer. There is no possibility of maneuvering, the trim interferes, or even makes firing impossible

      Edward, to tear off the nose of the battleship, it is VERY hard to try

      And there is a high probability that while the battleship will be "ripping off" the nose, the "rippers" themselves will be the first to gather from the battleship's fire

      As for small fragmentation holes and single hits of 127-152 mm HE mines, he sneezed at them

      Quote: qwert
      There is no possibility of maneuvering, the trim interferes, or even makes firing impossible.

      We must try hard to bring TKR / battleship to such a state. Hammer from guns all day, maybe then his nose will fall off (or burrow into the waves). But not the fact that the battleship will allow it

      Regarding torpedoes = an underwater explosion is always a terrible thing, and getting into the nasal tip (armored or not) will most likely tear it off
      Quote: qwert
      it's easy prey for aircraft and submarines, and possibly destroyers

      As a rule, the wounded animals have time to evacuate - there are a lot of examples (from N. Orleans to Sheffield)
      Large NKs always act as part of formations when their own aircraft dominate in the air. Otherwise, why?
      Quote: qwert
      Thus, the ship can survive, but at the same time ceases to be a combat unit.

      better to burn and sink with half the crew?
  6. Cristall
    Cristall 31 October 2014 10: 30
    +1
    but as a combat unit it will be preserved (unless of course they flood or drown), it will be possible to do repairs.
    But again, the loss of the nose is not as terrible as the loss of the other extremity .... Yes, mobility falls and so on - and there in general the ability to move.
    The spear blow is terrible. Sometimes you think Americans are what you thought? Or harnessed for a long time? The enemy was clearly thinking faster. For the time being.
    The Germans and Americans are well done (the latter, though mowed, but the struggle for vitality is amazing)
    By the way, for the Americans, that war was final for world ocean power.
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 07
      0
      Quote: Cristall
      nose loss not as scary as losing the other end

      Why did you decide that?

      It is difficult to reach the screws - they are under the bottom, closer to the citadel. In addition, duplicated
      damage to the steering wheel and its feather is also not as easy as it seems

      ps / feed, as a rule, is better protected, incl. steering box

      in the photo - The heavy cruiser "Prince Eugen" cheerfully prowls across the ocean with the stern torn off


      The result of hitting a torpedo with a submarine "Trident"



      German round dance. Manual steering
      1. xren
        xren 31 October 2014 21: 42
        0
        nose loss is not as terrible as the loss of the other extremity

        Why did you decide that?


        Because she usually:

        1) above the stern
        2) already feed
        3) more extended
      2. Cristall
        Cristall 4 November 2014 01: 31
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        ps / feed, as a rule, is better protected, incl. steering box

        but Bismarck wouldn’t think so ... all the same, torpedo strikes anywhere can be fatal. But in the engine room and in the throttle group ... where more dangerous than the nose.
  7. ParapaPanda
    ParapaPanda 31 October 2014 10: 41
    +2
    The article is well written.
    Honor and respect for the author.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 31 October 2014 15: 24
      +2
      Quote: ParapaPanda
      The article is well written.


      Search the site for articles by Oleg. Have fun
      1. Santa Fe
        31 October 2014 21: 12
        +2
        Quote: ParapaPanda
        The article is well written.
        Honor and respect for the author.

        Quote: Vadivak
        Search the site for articles by Oleg. Have fun

        Thank you guys
    2. The comment was deleted.
  8. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 31 October 2014 11: 22
    +5
    The article is interesting as a description of the battles. For the unambiguous conclusions of these cases, it seems to me, not enough.
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 21
      0
      Quote: Vladimirets
      For the unambiguous conclusions of these cases, it seems to me, not enough.

      You can recall many similar cases.

      Prince Eugen, Pittsburgh, leader of Tashkent (pictured)
  9. AK-47
    AK-47 31 October 2014 11: 34
    +4
    Quote: Cristall
    but as a combat unit it will be preserved (unless of course they flood or drown

    Not flooded or drowned, repaired and called "The severed nose", the nickname accompanied the cruiser until she was scrapped in 1959.
    CA-32 New Orleans with a new nose, August 1943
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 26
      0
      Quote: AK-47
      CA-32 New Orleans with a new nose, August 1943

      Yeah well
      It was already restored by July 1943, incl. GK bow tower

      N. Orleans - Right, October 1943
  10. xren
    xren 31 October 2014 14: 21
    +7
    "Elderberry in the garden ..."

    And what does torpedo damage have to do with splinterproof armor?
    Moreover, separation of the nasal extremity, from the point of view of survivability, is sometimes even better than its flooding.
    Yes, and according to Seydlitz: why is it certain that he would have reached the base if there hadn’t been a splinterproof reservation?
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 29
      +1
      Quote: xren
      damage from torpedoes related to anti-splinter armor?

      You see what’s the matter, xren - if even after COMPLETE flooding or loss of the nasal tip, the ships maintained their course and combat readiness (like the same Seidlitz or Tashkent), then small fragmentation holes - this is not at all a cause for concern

      Why was booking the nose 20 ... 70 mm - the answer is obvious, there is no need
      1. xren
        xren 31 October 2014 22: 21
        0
        Did Zedlitz retain combat capability?
        the battlecruiser was barely crawling aft forward at 3-5 knots, with a roll of 8 ° to the port side.

        Once again: as a rule, the loss of the nasal extremity for stability is much more preferable than its flooding.

        The cruiser Pensacola you mentioned received a torpedo in the engine room and also survived - why cover the engine room with armor?

        The main reasons for the death of ships in battle is ... a violation of stability ....
        As can be seen from the above examples, damage to the bow is not included in this list.


        But this is generally pearl.
        1. Santa Fe
          31 October 2014 22: 54
          0
          Quote: xren
          Did Zedlitz retain combat capability?

          He actually the fight led all evening and got PPC how much damage

          This is his condition in a day
          Quote: xren
          as a rule, the loss of the nasal tip for stability is much more preferable than its flooding.

          Seidlitz, Minneapolis and Tashkent
          1. xren
            xren 31 October 2014 23: 28
            +1
            He actually fought the fight all evening and received PPC as much damage

            Your words
            after COMPLETE flooding or loss of the nasal tip, the ships maintained their course and combat readiness (


            Seidlitz, Minneapolis and Tashkent

            So what? Contrary does not mean thanks.
            Seydlitz, it would be better to get rid of excess.
            What happened to Minneapolis is a rarity, and such a bend has reduced the differentiating moment, and has strengthened the transverse stability. This, in some ways, is even better than tearing off the nose.
            1. Santa Fe
              1 November 2014 07: 11
              0
              Quote: xren
              Your words
              after COMPLETE flooding or loss of the nasal tip, the ships maintained their course and combat readiness

              And where did you see the contradiction?


              All ships were moving on their own, Tashkent until the end of the battle did not reduce speed below 20 knots. and fired back to the last bullet. Seydlitz after the battle had a move 19 nodes. N.Orlean and Minneapolis made transoceanic transitions after the 3-day ersatz repair
              Quote: xren
              Seydlitz, it would be better to get rid of excess.

              Not less there we have a fact - total flooding did not cause death. A battlecruiser until evening kept fighting
              Quote: xren
              Contrary does not mean thanks.

              You just had nothing to say
              1. xren
                xren 1 November 2014 10: 59
                +1
                we have a fact - complete flooding did not cause death. And the battlecruiser remained operational until evening

                This is not a fact, but a fantasy. Full flooding occurred after the battle.

                You just had nothing to say

                In general, yes. Because if you were told four times that separation
                nose is safer, then for the fifth time it is useless to repeat.
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 31 October 2014 22: 25
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Why was booking the nose 20 ... 70 mm - the answer is obvious, there is no need

        It seemed to me that the article was written about people.
        1. Santa Fe
          1 November 2014 07: 12
          +1
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          It seemed to me that the article was written about people.

          Michael, this is undoubtedly

          Man is the measure of everything (Plato)
  11. typhoon7
    typhoon7 31 October 2014 14: 55
    +1
    Oleg, thank you. The article is interesting from the first to the last word. “Seydlitz” and the team especially respect.
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 30
      0
      Quote: typhoon7
      Oleg, thank you. The article is interesting from the first to the last word. “Seydlitz” and the team especially respect.

      You're welcome

      The incredible return of Seidlitz - I first read about it in the Modeler-Designer at the beginning of the 2000's, hooked
  12. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 31 October 2014 16: 07
    +4
    Ehhh :))))
    As always:)))
    Oleg again did not catch the main thing :))))
    The fact is that the idea of ​​the citadel itself is to ensure unsinkability of the ship with the fore and aft parts completely destroyed.
    If a "citadel" ship, whose bow and (or) stern was gouged, went to feed the crabs with the citadel intact - shame and shame on its designers. It shouldn't be like that, that's what a citadel is for. But why armoring of extremities is needed, Oleg did not understand
    End armoring is not intended to prevent the death of a ship. It is in order to ensure the combat stability of the ship. What is the difference?
    The fact that a ship with unarmored ends can easily take damage, excluding its combat activity from some shameful air bomb that exploded in the water near the ship’s hull. It is clear that the ship will not sink - but having taken a considerable amount of water through an unarmored side, the ship will be forced to leave for its native harbor, interrupting the military operation
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 41
      0
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The fact is that the idea of ​​the citadel itself is to ensure the unsinkability of a ship with a completely bow and stern.

      We are not only talking about maintaining buoyancy

      Examples from the article are the limit, but even there the ships moved on their own and continued the battle (like the same Seidlitz or Tashkent)
      What consequences can be from small fragmentation of holes in the nose - yes, no special consequences, the combat effectiveness will remain at 90%
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Oleg did not understand
      End armoring is not intended to prevent the death of a ship. It is in order to ensure the combat stability of the ship

      Here, I am not at all critically criticized

      From the article:
      Even after extensive flooding and destruction in the nose, ships, as a rule, retain the lion's share of their combat effectiveness and don’t even try to sink to the bottom.

      What can we say about small fragmentation holes and high / medium caliber explosions! Damage caused by them categorically unable to deliver significant troubles and cause loss of course and combat effectiveness of a large warship

      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      a ship with unarmored ends can easily be damaged, excluding its combat activity from some infamous air bomb that exploded in the water near the ship’s hull

      Yes, I do not want to
      How many bomb do you need to detonate?
      And what will become the main cause of flooding - cladding torn by hydroblows or small fragmentation holes?
      1. xren
        xren 1 November 2014 15: 38
        0
        And what will become the main cause of flooding - cladding torn by hydroblows or small fragmentation holes?


        Of course, fragmentation holes, as there are such things as PKZ, double sides and waterproof decks and platforms.
  13. Megatron
    Megatron 31 October 2014 16: 20
    0
    Has the new nose become shorter, or does it seem to me?
  14. Taoist
    Taoist 31 October 2014 16: 29
    +5
    That's why I love our Kaptsov because of fanaticism ... If he believes in what idea he will be "victorious" as that Stirlitz stand "on his own ...".
    That is, all examples that "work for the idea" will be studied, considered and lyrically described. Anything that contradicts the "party line" will be safely ignored and declared non-existent ...

    The examples in this article are cool ... but what’s interesting - does history know of cases when the ships went to the bottom with absolutely whole armored citadels?
    In general, the statement of the question "delivers" - they say the ships do not sink from the loss of the nose - to book it?
    1. Santa Fe
      31 October 2014 21: 33
      +1
      Quote: Taoist
      Anything that contradicts the "party line" will be safely ignored and declared non-existent ...

      Are there any other cases?
      Quote: Taoist
      when the ships went to the bottom with absolutely whole armored citadels does history not know?

      Punched PTZ is considered damage to the citadel?)
      Quote: Taoist
      they say from loss of nose the ships do not sink - to reserve it?

      They not only do not drown, but do not even lose their combat capability

      And then it makes sense to cover the nose with thin anti-fragmentation armor - if the fragments are not dangerous (in the examples given in the article there were not fragments, but something abruptly)
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 1 November 2014 12: 00
        0
        And then it makes sense to cover the nose with thin anti-fragmentation armor - if the fragments are not dangerous (in the examples given in the article there were not fragments, but something abruptly)


        You will notice that in all your examples, ships have had a catastrophic drop in speed. As a result, the line will either slow down and fall into the position of the 2nd TE, shot by the Japanese from angles and distances that are advantageous to them, or the ship will leave the system, weakening the line by an nth number of main guns.
        And the problems with flooding in the extremities are created just by fragments and shells of SK, which can be much more than GK suitcases and which, being high-explosive, can make holes in the unarmored tip. That is why a thin high-explosive and anti-shatter reservation is used.
        1. Santa Fe
          2 November 2014 05: 52
          0
          Quote: alicante11
          in all of your examples, ships have had a catastrophic drop in speed.

          Not at all
          Beaten Seydlitz supported 19 bonds by night.
          The very next day, when the floods exceeded all imaginable limits, he became very ill

          Tashkent with a flooded nose had 20 bonds.
          Quote: alicante11
          As a result, the line will either slow down and fall into the position of the 2-th TE

          Wounded animals are simply evacuated from the database zone

          Linear squadron battles of the NK are impossible in our time
          Quote: alicante11
          And the problems with flooding in the extremities are created by just fragments and shells of the UK

          Rather, underwater explosions, from which the armor will not save
          Quote: alicante11
          just fragments and shells SK, which maybe a lot more,

          And the question is - will the battleship allow?

          Or the enemy with his SK will accumulate first from TKR / LK fire
          1. alicante11
            alicante11 2 November 2014 08: 56
            0
            Not at all
            Beaten Seydlitz supported 19 bonds by night.
            The very next day, when the floods exceeded all imaginable limits, he became very ill


            19 knots against how many are normal? What did it have to do with a battlecruiser that could enter the line of slower battleships (although this was not done and he was just holding back Hipper), and if the speed of the battleship would decrease by the same percentage? Could he remain in combat formation?

            Tashkent with a flooded nose had 20 bonds.


            Again, a destroyer "crawling" at 20 knots is not a fighter. He cannot lead the destroyers (and he was precisely the leader), i.e. ensure their attack with the fire of guns, because it simply will not keep up with them.

            Wounded animals are simply evacuated from the database zone


            Well, it turns out that this "wounded" with a whole artillery and a battered nose will weaken the line by a n-number of main guns.

            Linear squadron battles of the NK are impossible in our time


            I understand that we are talking about the past. That the Germans booked, but the arrogant Saxons did not, and that the latter were more right than the former. Or did I misunderstand your statement?

            Rather, underwater explosions, from which the armor will not save


            It is unlikely that a small-caliber landmine exploded in water will not cause serious damage. Still, water does not contribute to the spread of fragments and blast waves.

            And the question is - will the battleship allow?


            And who will ask him something? The same Seydlitz had hit 152 and 102mm shells. In principle, even the battleships had such weapons. True, they were an anti-mine caliber, but in Jutland they also shot at the enemy. And for armadillos this is generally very critical, since they had 4-8 six-inch aboard precisely as the main armament along with 4 large guns.
            1. xren
              xren 2 November 2014 10: 42
              0
              Still, water does not contribute to the spread of fragments and blast waves.


              Sorry, but the blast wave, just the same, much better spreads in water.
              But even under water, the ship is not defenseless.
              1. alicante11
                alicante11 2 November 2014 12: 14
                0
                Sorry, but the blast wave, just the same, much better spreads in water.


                This cannot be, water is a denser medium than air. And therefore, it extinguishes energy more, exerting greater resistance.
                Here the question is different, if I correctly remember the issues of mine protection, the water has a lot of elasticity and therefore, say, when a torpedo explodes, fragments and a blast wave, after the destructible part of the side, will go to the interior of the ship, because of which the mine bulkheads were installed in the distance from the side. This also includes buli, which, in fact, are additional compartments in which the explosion products expand.
                1. xren
                  xren 4 November 2014 02: 24
                  0
                  Sorry again.
                  The fragments, yes, stop with water, but the blast wave, on the contrary, passes very well. Because in terrestrial conditions, liquids are incompressible. Therefore, an underwater explosion is much more dangerous for a ship than a surface explosion.
  15. Hun
    Hun 31 October 2014 16: 43
    +1
    Article plus - definitely! Thanks for the work! I look forward to continuing ...
  16. wown
    wown 31 October 2014 19: 14
    0
    why not add an article about tragic cases, for example with Oslyabya?
  17. xomaNN
    xomaNN 31 October 2014 19: 56
    +2
    Professionally acting motivated by the idea of ​​sailors, regardless of the flag and the guise over their ships, deserve all respect !!!
  18. vodolaz
    vodolaz 31 October 2014 23: 49
    +2
    An interesting article, Seidlitz was most struck.
  19. viruvalge412ee
    viruvalge412ee 1 November 2014 08: 46
    0
    ON TOTAL OF SERVICES, THE GREEN RUSSIAN MOTHERS COMMITTEE APPROVES THE SEIDER OF TITLE: DESERVED-GUARDIAN. GOLD STAR MEDAL AND THE ORDER OF LENIN, respectively.
    Glitter article! It seems that the German wrote it. I understand that exploits-there are always exploits, there should be equal respect for nationalities and respect for them! However, edren-loaf, I want to sob! Nerves naughty from such heroism are not Seydlitz, but people in him! Then, how are such people WE (still kind of WE!? - there were no decisions, that we were not) won. In general, the question is complex and simple slightly touched. The issue of cannon fodder. And it is cannon fodder, everywhere and always the same people. ps There, on Seydlitsa, there were no Ukrainians! Otherwise, he would have sank tady
  20. VictorLimaGolf
    VictorLimaGolf 15 January 2015 12: 06
    0
    The author was a little deceitful - he omitted one fact that speaks against his opinion. The article is well written and shows the author's high competence in this matter, so he could not have been aware of the death of the battle cruiser "Luttsov" in the Battle of Jutland from holes and flooding in the NOSE part. "Luttsov" armored belt at the extremities had, but a relatively small thickness of 100-120 mm, penetrated by the main caliber of British battleships / battle cruisers. The result - "Luttsov" took 8 thousand tons of water in the bow, the trim was such that the propellers came out of the water, and the battle cruiser was abandoned by the crew and flooded due to the complete impossibility of bringing it to base. But the main belt, 305 mm thick, successfully withstood the shells, and the machines and boilers remained in good order. After all, the "short chain mail" turned out to be!