We are ours, we will build the old fleet

147
We are ours, we will build the old fleet


If you look closely at our army and air force, you can see that they are more and more like NATO. There is no longer a former admiration for the “eternally relevant” experience of the Great Patriotic War, and generals do not measure the strength of armies by the quantity tanks. Our T-50 is similar to the F-22, and they have the same concept. And the president demands to study the experience of NATO. Another thing is the Navy, where not only is the concept of the Soviet fleet, but also extolled as the only true for modern Russia. It turns out that the admiral is really smarter than the general. But how else to explain that only Soviet naval thought survived the death of the USSR? I would venture to disagree with this, and an informant will help me, whose name I will name, but later, and with his permission, I will publish something that has never been published. And I will begin by recalling the origins of our naval existence. And yet, this article is not primarily about ships and admirals, it is about you and me, for each people is worthy not only of its government, but also of its army.

ORIGINS

History The Navy of the Russian Federation is taken from the decree of the Boyar Duma and Peter I. The form is true, the content is not. The fact is that in 1930, the continuity with the imperial fleet was irretrievably lost. In the 1926 year, the fleet was finally remembered, before that it was not up to him, and they adopted the first shipbuilding program. While the minimum. And at the same time there was a discussion on which fleet to build next.

This dispute took place between the old and the young school. The old men wanted to build a small fleet, but consisting of all classes of ships, trusting that such a fleet would be a school for creating powerful naval forces in the future. Young people believed that war should happen from minute to minute, since at any moment the world revolution or capitalist aggression could be struck. Consequently, there is nothing to spend on large ships and long hikes, you need to build and improve only light forces. The fact that the main young were the new red commanders, the former sailors and heroes of the Civil War, such as Ivan Ludri, Alexander Yakimychev and others, and the old men - the royal captains of the 1 rank Boris Gerva and Mikhail Petrov were spicy to the dispute. As the former sailors clearly lacked knowledge, they lost the argument. It was then that a means tested earlier in the Red Army was used — the translation of the dispute on an ideological plane, with the subsequent accusation of the opposing side of bourgeois reactionism.

The denunciation lay down on the fertile ground - the RKKF had long wanted to clear it, there were still a lot of old-time officers in it. And in 1930, Gervais and Petrov were arrested. Gervais was later released, and he managed to die in the 1934 year, and Petrov rotted out in prison. Their names were forgotten and defamed. Here, for example, is an excerpt from the 1965 work of the year: “Based on the reactionary theory of Mehen and Colomb, dominant in the west, Professor B. B. Gervais and M.A. Petrov developed the doctrine of possession of the sea in the old, classical sense. " The persecution of the former, some of them were fired, others were fired, and civilian heroes were put forward in their place, having completed accelerated courses, which they didn’t really learn. The remaining ex quickly realized that silence and longevity are synonymous.

At the head of the fleet (1931 – 1937) stood the proven Bolshevik and Commissar of various sea levels, Vladimir Orlov. And all anything, if not Spain. Since the fall of 1936, Soviet ships have begun to deliver weapon to Spain, and the Franks to drown them. As a result, until 4 in May 1937, when it was decided to stop deliveries by our vessels, we lost seven vessels. It turned out that the Soviet fleet could not even cope with half of the Spanish. This revelation was unexpected for Stalin, and fatal for the leadership of the fleet. The next 22 of the month was replaced by five commanders of the Navy! Until, finally, Stalin did not find the one he was looking for — Nikolai Kuznetsov.

As a result, three Soviet "virtues" took root in the navy. Leaderism at the top spawned the leaders on the ground, hence the virtue - "you are the boss - I am a fool." Domestic political struggle at the cost of life forced the leaders to look for infinitely loyal subordinates who understood everything and didn’t ask unnecessary questions, hence the virtue “to guess, please”. Rightly believing that each leader gathers his squad, the leader answered for the mistakes of the leader, for the leader's mistakes - the whole squad, and the measure of responsibility for you and for your family was one - death, hence virtue - "mutual responsibility." Knowledge of these "virtues" is necessary to understand the further ills of the fleet.

All this is called the Stalinist repression, I am against such a term. This term appeared at the beginning of perestroika, when they tried to write off all the vices of the system to certain people. The repressions did not begin in 37, but in 18, and if we were to search for the founder, then Lenin and Trotsky are better suited for this role. Stalin and the Civil Heroes were looking for "simple solutions." You can understand them if you look at their origin and education. But how can you understand us, burdened with knowledge, the presence of free media and, most importantly, the Internet?

BARS TO THE PORTRAIT

The role of Khrushchev in the development of the armed forces is usually assessed as either negative or terrible. Khrushchev suffered from rocket addiction, almost eliminated the strategic Aviation, was an opponent of the construction of large surface ships and, in particular, aircraft carriers. It was on the basis of disagreement with this and Kuznetsov was dismissed.

Let's start from the end. Kuznetsov was dismissed for the same reason as Zhukov. Khrushchev's authority in the officers was, to put it mildly, weak. My grandfather (officer) told how they laughed even in the presence of the political officer over Khrushchev and drank the health of Stalin's marshals. Under the conditions of Soviet reality, to keep in the service generals and admirals whom the army loves more than the secretary general, for Khrushchev it was literally deadly. Khrushchev was shot in 1964, and did they immediately rush to design a new strategic bomber? Or maybe began to build large surface ships? Yes, all of them - the ships of the class cruiser and TAKR - from 1964 to 1991 year built 13 units, less than in the first post-war decade. Khrushchev demanded: "We must build a fleet, but above all build a submarine fleet armed with missiles." Did APRK still not considered to be the backbone of the Navy and did not the sailors themselves fought with the aircraft carrier?

Here is what the General Directorate of Shipbuilding wrote in 1960: “... Ship fighter aircraft are not a promising means of air defense. Combat stability of the units should be provided by the air defense system of the ships ". Indeed, in 1962, the revolutionary 61 ships, which had the Volna air defense system, appeared in the Navy. But here's a bad luck: considering all the tricks, “Wave” could not hit a plane flying below 50 m. The appearance of “Storm” did not change the situation. Knowing this, the American pilots practiced the attack at an altitude of 25 m. Therefore, based on the experience of the Falklands War, to destroy any of our BOD required three to four Skyhawk aircraft with conventional bombs. Cheap and angry. And only in 1976 year, having modernized the air defense system, we began to shoot down low-altitude targets. So the hope for the omnipotence of the air defense system in the 1960 year is utopia. Did sailors understand this? Maybe they understood, but in order to please the leader they wrote without complaint what he wanted to hear. Like 10 years before, amusing Stalin, they justified the need for battleships. Reading the "scientific" confirmation of his ideas, the leader sincerely believed in their correctness.

A society transformed into uncomplaining sheep gave birth to ram leaders, and rams bred sheep. So close the circle. And today, how much has changed?

1976 YEAR

This is a very important year, because this year there were two events, without which this article would not have been equally. First, the author of the article was born, and secondly, the author’s father, Vladislav Ivanovich Nikolsky, became a listener at the Navy Academy. Now, I hope you understand who my informant is. My father is a very valuable source, since after graduating from the Academy he served in the 1 Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense, being the leading CAD specialist for surface ships (NK). Through his hands and head passed all the characteristics and models of combat use: ships, naval aircraft, satellites and other things that were used or intended to be used in the fleet. He closely interacted with 30 NII VVS and 24 NII NII. Of course, the father knows about the laser and other "X" weapons, but for obvious reasons we will not talk about it, and this has nothing to do with the case, as we and the Americans have not left this weapon experiments. But the other, which is no longer secret, with his permission, I will try to reveal.

DOCTRINE GORSHKOVA

The father met the doctrine of the USSR Navy in 1977 year, after reading the secret book of Gorshkov “The USSR Navy” and the closed version of the magazine “Sea collection”. In them, especially in the book, the entire maritime strategy of the USSR was spelled out: a nuclear war with the extensive use of SSBNs to destroy ground targets, the defeat of enemy surface groups by striking the anti-aircraft missile defense missile defense submarine with APRS and naval missile-carrying aircraft. The secondary role was played by the strikes of NK. The main purpose of the NK, as well as torpedo submarines, was the constant tracking of the enemy SSBNs and their destruction with the start of the war. All other tasks — such as amphibious or anti-mine — were considered secondary. Participation in local conflicts was not considered at all, and the fleet was not prepared for them. In the end, all these views were set forth in the “Military Regulations of the Navy of the USSR”. The sudden outbreak of war was considered the only true one. And the very beginning of the war was expected in the near future. This led to the secondary importance of repairs and modernization of ships. It became clear why in the Soviet fleet little was invested in the repair base, and the operating voltage coefficient (KOH) was significantly lower than that of the US Navy. At the same time, the question of combat training and rafting of Gorshkov’s crews didn’t particularly bother, since the war was seen as a fleeting nuclear missile, in which we had to preempt the enemy in a strike. And when you first launch a rocket, the level of your training is no longer important, as long as there are more rockets.

In the light of this Gorshkov doctrine, the paradox of the Soviet surface fleet becomes clear. We had by the 1985 year (Gorshkov's resignation) large NK (1135 project and larger) 102 units, which would be enough for the 15 carrier-based strike groups, and yet did not have a single aircraft carrier. Therefore, our NK could act only under the cover of coastal fighter aircraft. And this, according to the exercises held in 60-s, not further 120 km from the airfield. At such a small distance from the coast the use of large NK is redundant. But if we beat the first, then the Americans will not have time to use their aircraft. That is why our BOD and cruisers fearlessly went to the ocean alone.

At the same time, I ask you not to think that the Central Committee of the CPSU and Gorshkov personally wanted for at least a second to start a nuclear war. The blow should have been struck only in the event of an extreme aggravation of the situation, when war would be inevitable, but the problem was how to know that the tension had reached its apogee and it was time to strike? The leaders did not think about it. Just taken for the law and followed it. And why be surprised? In the Soviet history of such bulk. Recall communism for the 80 year, housing problem for the 2000. In a sick country, sore heads and not only among top leaders, but also on the ground. This is what my father remembers. “I once said in a smoking room (in 1-th Central Research Institute) to the captain of 1 rank L.Yu. Khudyakov (a theoretical theorist of the underwater forces): “Well, APRK is, of course, good, but what will it do if the aircraft carrier starts to launch strike aircraft into the air, and the war has not yet begun. It will be too late to shoot at an empty aircraft carrier. Well, to act as an aggressor and be the first to start a war? ”Not finding a decent one, Khudyakov began to say duty things. "This is a question for politicians ... We will have time to transfer the command on time ...". In general, I didn’t argue with him, we were then too different weight categories. In addition, I respected and admired this man. "

Savings on crew training and repairs, as well as the supply of Dmitry Ustinov, collusion with the industry (see below) led to a high accident rate of the Navy. Unfortunately, the system created by Gorshkov and Ustinov outlasted its creators, continuing to multiply funerals. From 1956 (the beginning of the Gorshkov rule) to the present day, the Navy lost among the combat-ready ships sunken (but then raised), as well as the dead, including those that cannot be restored after the monstrous accident in Chazhma: one BOD, one MRK, six DPL and eight submarines, including Kursk. During the same period, only two submarines and one submarine submarine suffered such a fate in the US Navy. Such a striking discrepancy cannot be attributed to the numerical superiority of the domestic fleet and, in particular, the nuclear submarine.

Firstly, the numerical ratio between the constructed American and Soviet nuclear submarines is not 1: 4, but approximately 1: 1,27. Secondly, KOH, as already mentioned, was lower in our fleet, and therefore our boats were less likely to go to sea. If you carefully read the available results of investigations of our catastrophes, you will see that in most cases the blame lies either on the crew or (and) the fleet command, or on the industry, and more often on those and others. This is the result of the “cheap fleet”. Of course, many piously believe that it was the Americans who secretly set fire to and submerged our submarines, and Putin hides all this, because the State Department has pushed him well. Well, in the West there are a lot of people who believe that bears roam our streets and Russians are guilty of killing Kennedy, in the explosions of two towers, in unleashing World War II, etc. So what are you better at? There will be those who say: The Soviet Union could not afford to spend big money on the fleet and did the right thing when it saved on repairs and combat training. Well, you do not burn and do not sink, but, incidentally, it is your business to see in this a positive or negative side. I had the opportunity to serve and I was lucky - I am writing these lines, but my fellow classmate Denis Kirichenko, the engineer of the Kursk survivability division, doesn’t have a good friend ...

GENIUS USTINOVA

Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov - a unique personality. For those who say that Serdyukov is the first civilian minister of defense, I advise you to familiarize yourself with Ustinov’s career. Ustinov, who did not even command a detachment of the day, nevertheless reached the marshal's stars and died as minister of defense. Ustinov’s career began during the years of the Great Patriotic War as minister of military industry, which left an imprint on his mind. When and under what circumstances he came to terms with Brezhnev is difficult to say, but it is known that he had a tremendous influence on the Secretary General. A year after Brezhnev’s appointment, Ustinov’s career — an already successful one — starts off like a Proton rocket. In 1965, he was already secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU for the military-industrial complex, and from 1976 to 1984 a year - Minister of Defense. Starting from the 1965 year and until his death, it was he who defined the military doctrine of the USSR, entering the "small political bureau" as the main expert on military science. The more Ustinov grew older, the more he frightened the aging Brezhnev with the danger of NATO and the more militarized the industry of the USSR grew. If conversion was under Khrushchev, then under Brezhnev it was a reverse process. It was Ustinov, originating from the military industrial complex, and not from the army, who subdued the Ministry of Defense industry.

But this was his explanation. Ustinov introduced the concept of limited war in Soviet military science. He believed that the Americans would not be the first to launch a nuclear strike, therefore the USSR should not be in a hurry with the use of a nuclear baton in the event of a conflict, but should try to achieve victory in Europe with conventional weapons and on the coast of the English Channel to bargain for peace. Consequently, ATS troops should have a minimum of one and a half superiority in conventional weapons, and since the allies of the USSR were not like the United States, the USSR had to compete with the leading economies of the world almost alone. To win this competition, we went to the collusion: the military turned a blind eye to the imperfection of the weapon, and the industry promised to over-fulfill the plan, that is, as during World War II.

We will not touch the army, the Air Force, the Strategic Missile Forces, I am not an expert in these areas, but this is what affected the fleet - we will consider.

First about the quality and accidents. Here are two examples. 30 August 1974 of the year due to the explosion of the aft cellar of the missile system, the Brave BOD was killed. The midshipman who was in the post of the stern cellar had 1,5 minutes before the explosion to activate the irrigation system. But instead, he simply escaped, condemning the ship to inevitable death. Why? Because in the cockpit below the deck the repair valve of the irrigation system was closed. Why? Because the fire pumps installed on the 61 project were of unsatisfactory design and were inferior in reliability to those previously used in the fleet. Therefore, the pressure in the fire line often jumped, and imperfect sensors automatically turned on the irrigation of the cellars. After several such accidents, the Black Sea Fleet command issued a tacit order to close the repair valves. My father, who served at the same time on the similar ship "Sharp-witted", also had the valve closed.

The second example relates to the shameful accident K-429. It is widely known that on K-429 not only emergency pop-up buoys (AVB), but also a pop-up camera (VSC) were welded. However, they forget that this is not only the result of eternal neglect in our fleet to the possibility of an accident, but also the imperfection of these products. VSK and AVB broke down during sea trials, AVB often surfaced during combat service, so they were welded so as not to surface. But until the trouble happened to K-429, the industry somehow was in no hurry to correct its flaws. This is unthinkable in the US Navy, since there the manufacturer is directly financially responsible for its creations. And when the Senate and Congress investigated the death of Thresher, no one hesitated to call mistakes. In the USSR, in terms of collusion and "virtues", rubbish from the hut was not carried out. And even now you can hear a lot of insulting speeches of participants in those events. Serving in the navy, I often heard from senior officers about the unreliability of our equipment. And having appeared in various design bureaus, I learned that crews who could not exploit were to blame, and also with concrete examples. The truth is not that our crews are completely slobs, and the industry is bouncers, but in the wickedness of the Soviet government with all its “virtues” and collusion discussed above.

Now about the perfection of ships. Participating in collusion, the fleet was often forced to order not what he wanted. Here are some examples. The Navy wanted to abandon the battle-turbine installations (KTU) on warships, as the US Navy did, but this went against the opinion of the industry. In Leningrad, the full cycle of KTU production was carried out and, as a result, the fleet was forced to install KTUs on the 956 project. Thus, not a single miracle of the Soviet shipbuilding industry appeared in NATO fleet - the steam destroyer of the end of the 20th century, and this is in the country where the gas turbine destroyer (61 project) was created for the first time in the world!

The second example. The fleet waited so long from the industry for boats that would have caught up with the American ones by stealth, and finally he received them: first the 949 project and the 945 project, which reached the level of Los Angeles, and then the 949 project, the 945 project and 971 project, which have surpassed Los Angeles and are now second only to Seawolf, of which there are only three boats, and are comparable to the newest Virginia. The fleet wanted only these boats. But what about the Admiralty shipyards and backlog in the last submarine, the industry asked? And you transfer resources to Sevmash and ZLK, the fleet answered. You grabbed Eka, the Sovmin answered, there is no money for that. And Gorshkov had to choose: either fewer boats, but completely the best, or to supplement the deficit with erzatlods. In the second version, and agreed, the benefit of the industry, he gave more. So they continued to build the project 671, first - 671РТМ, then - 671РТМК. But the Americans also improved their Los Angeles, and as a result, even the 671RTMK project could not catch up with Los Angeles either in hydroacoustics or in secrecy.

For a fair picture, it is worth noting the positive aspects of Ustinov. In particular, he really is a good genius for our aviation. It was he who, based on the experience of the defense of Hanoi, determined that no air defense system can ensure air supremacy. And we must go on the American way, creating expensive and sophisticated aircraft, even for front-line aviation. So, the simple and cheap MiG-21 / 23 fighter was replaced by the MiG-29 and the Su-27, and the cheap Su-7 was replaced by the Su-24. It is with the filing of Ustinov begins the mass introduction of precision weapons. That says that he could learn from the generals of NATO.

However, for the fleet he is considered an evil genius. Indeed, Ustinov presented the Navy with such "wonders" of technology, such as an ekranoplan, a vertical take-off and landing aircraft (VTOL) and ships of the 1143 project.

With Ekranoplan Ustinov introduced Rostislav Alekseev. Long before any innovations, Ustinov fell in love with a WIG and its creator, and the helpful Gorshkov, who remembered the second “virtue,” did not interfere with this love. The idea of ​​an ekranoplan, and especially a combat one, is inherently flawed. The ekranoplan is tied to a “screen” - the flight height of the 904 and 903 projects was no more than 5 m, which imposes severe restrictions on the weather and requires the strengthening of the hull. As a result, the weight return of the 903 project is 36%, and by weight of the Tu-160 - 60%. The idea that an ekranoplan is a ship, not a plane, and they can be built cheaply on the CVD, is also flawed. They were built on the CVD, but all components came from the aviation industry. It turned out "porridge from an ax." As a result, at the cost of construction and operation one 903 project was equal to one Tu-160. As they say, comments are superfluous. But I still add. The ekranoplan is a low-speed one constrained in maneuver and a very low-flying flying seaplane, and therefore, unlike the Tu-160, it represents an ideal target for fighters. And yet more than 20 years with the tacit consent of Gorshkov fleet simply raped WIG. And only after Ustinov’s death, it was possible to cover up this eccentricity with a state account: the 904 project was closed immediately, the 903 project, saving the honor of the uniform, - a little later.

But did Ustinov alone have so much fun? And IRAs on the skeg project 1239? His idea did not come from Ustinov, but already from local naval science fiction writers. RTOs turned out to be expensive both in construction and operation, and was equal to 2,5 of the 1234.7 project, and all for the sake of speed. It was believed that allegedly on 55 nodes Harpoon would not be able to hit the MKP. But many experts of the 1 Central Research Institute and the 24 Scientific Research Institute believed that if we started the mass construction of such RTOs, then the Americans in the shortest possible time by upgrading Penguin or Phoenix will receive special highly mobile RCC. And experts, even without fear, spoke about it ... in the smoking room, because the official disagreement with the authorities did not correspond to the "virtues."

It is often said that it was Ustinov who insisted on the development of VTOL and small TAKR. This is true, but they only forget to add that it was in 1975 year, that is, when the second TAKR was already under construction. The true father of the 1143 project was Gorshkov, who liked the 1123 project, and he wanted to get an enhanced version of the PLO Moscow cruiser, which became the Kiev "TAKR". They also forget that it was Ustinov in 1981 that year, after visiting “Kiev” and getting acquainted with his infirmity, he ordered the development of the 1143.5 project begin.

So who prevented Ustinov from opening his eyes earlier?

EVERYTHING IS SO LIKE A YESTERDAY

Gorshkov was afraid that “Bolivar would not sustain two” and the program of building large TAKRs with normal takeoff / landing would eat the resources necessary for his favorite creation - “Granit-Antey”, and reduce the number of APRKs built. But the doubtful implementation of the Yak-38 fleet is really worth sharing between Gorshkov and Ustinov. They were the victims of the charm of Academician of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR Alexander Yakovlev, who promised the impossible - to replace the Yak-38 with a supersonic VTOL aircraft in the near future. And how could one not believe if it was piously believed that in the first state the workers and peasants were not only the people, but also its engineers, who could do something that was beyond the power of the decadent Western mind.

But if this error arising from the communist ideology can be understood, how can we understand today's? Do we still not believe that the USSR and its heir to the Russian Federation is the birthplace of the best weapons in the world? Do the federal media broadcast on this and the Internet is not full?
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  1. Rum.Rum.
    0
    25 October 2014 18: 56
    Glory to the Fleet of the Russian Federation !!! soldier
    1. +6
      25 October 2014 19: 53
      The Russian fleet to be! And to be powerful, to all enemies out of spite!
      1. +9
        25 October 2014 20: 00
        Glory to the Russian fleet!
        Only one upset, but for that, a conceptual mistake by the author of the article ... The Soviet nuclear missile concept of building an ocean fleet with aircraft-carrying groupings is not for us the closest planning yet! To my deep regret ... There is no other way out of what has been duplicated yet, however, it does not follow that our fleet does not strengthen as much as possible in the current conditions: to enemies in fear, to friends to pride!)
        1. +25
          25 October 2014 20: 10
          Quote: de Klermon
          Only one, but for that conceptual mistake of the author of the article, is frustrating ... The Soviet nuclear missile concept of building an ocean fleet with aircraft-carrying groupings is not a matter of closest planning for us yet!

          We must look soberly tomorrow. So far, priority has been given to boats. Strategists and multipurpose submarines. I think in our current situation this is primary? The time will come (I’m sorry I will not live to see it) and our Navy will become an aircraft carrier! This must happen without fail! We consider ourselves a mighty maritime Power!
          1. diesel
            +20
            25 October 2014 22: 09
            Any program and doctrine is a response to an external challenge, as a rule, with the stamp of personal life experience of project participants and leaders. The answer is usually not mirrored. The country has its own priorities in industry and economic feasibility. The author did not draw the main thing - the conclusions. There is a grudge against Gorshkov, apparently because of his father. Gorshkov wrote the book "The Sea Power of the State" in the early 70s. I bought it as a young officer and read it avidly. This is the first book with a bias in geopolitics available for sale in the USSR. Under Gorshkov, our fleet became oceanic and for this he (Gorshkov) should be thanked. A few comments, the Su-24 was not built to replace the Su-7. These aircraft are different in their tasks and in the way they are performed. The generational change in fighter aircraft was based on the findings after the Vietnam War. They attached great importance to the survival of aviation in battle, hence the two engines that made it possible to realize high maneuverability. From the historical point of view, the article is interesting, conclusions and suggestions are needed.
          2. +3
            25 October 2014 23: 28
            Come on, I hope we all live to see this. smile
      2. -14
        25 October 2014 23: 15
        Here they are the enemies of our fleet and minus. Goats!
        1. +9
          25 October 2014 23: 26
          Quote: Thought Giant
          Here they are the enemies of our fleet and minus. Goats!

          Yes, there are no enemies here, dear Giant of Thought (1) hi
          Everyone is worried about our Navy. Cons is disagreement with the opinion of colleagues or opponents.
          You can even say intolerance towards the opinions of others.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +14
      25 October 2014 19: 59
      Quote: Rum.Rum.
      Glory to the Fleet of the Russian Federation !!!

      Glory! Who argues. Let me give you my sea friends, I’ll make you happy ?! Diver-strategists-dedicated!

      What is she dreaming about?

      How long have I wanted to get the will!
      And casting aside fears -United States to visit!
      In the dark dreary I vegetate.
      I want to light me brightly in the USA!

      I want to Washington, right to the White House!
      Or to the state of Virginia, where the Pentagon is!
      I will rush from the shaft of the boat to the stars.
      In a brief moment of freedom I will forget sadness!

      I won’t leave the course! And do not knock me down!
      I have many surprises in my womb!
      Land in New York, breathing all the fire.
      I AM THE WAR Hello USA !!!

      Guys! Just say, this is a joke! There is no need to engage in disputes about retaliation, etc. I think the sea wolves will enjoy it, and people with an unstable psyche (this obviously does not concern submariners) should not read at all.
      1. +2
        26 October 2014 06: 05
        Quote: Arberes
        What is she dreaming about?

        This is such a thing that will bring a lot of light and heat to the cities of a potential enemy. (Also a joke)
    5. Denis fj
      +23
      25 October 2014 20: 08
      If it weren’t for the collapse of the USSR, the fleet would have 4 nuclear cruisers in the world 4 rocket cruisers 4 attack helicopter carriers Kiev type cruisers 2 Moscow type helicopter carriers 2 full-size aircraft carriers Admiral Kuznetsov 1 nuclear aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk 20-30 destroyers 40-50 watchdogs analogous to the current + small anti-submarine ships of 2-3 projects large + missile boats of 3 projects + BDK 4 projects +100 submarines of various projects, including the largest in the world with a displacement of 18 thousand tons, a shark of only about 250-300 ships, if all aircraft carriers went into service they would have had up to 100 aircraft, su 33 mig 29k su25utg, plus airplanes for distribution and locations for Ulyanovsk, could be on equal footing with America.
      1. +2
        25 October 2014 21: 39
        Quote: denis fj
        su xnumx

        ATAKR "Ulyanovsk" should have been S-37 (Su - 47 "Berkut"), and not Su27K and Mig29K ...
      2. -8
        25 October 2014 21: 52
        You, my friend, the Kremlin dreamer ...
      3. +12
        25 October 2014 21: 58
        denis fj - the author of the article is a scoundrel and apparently his dad is also the same - I don't know how you are, but I noticed that this guy called my homeland - the USSR - a "sick country", called Stalin a "ram" - in general, a "brave" guy ... in front of the computer, in general, "you can see the bird by the droppings ..." angry
        1. Kassandra
          +5
          25 October 2014 23: 50
          otherwise "service technician" ...
        2. +11
          26 October 2014 00: 19
          Quote: Goga101
          the author of the article is a bastard

          I didn’t minus the article, but the bias and some personal grievances of the author and his family are obvious. That is why the value of this opus tends to "0".
      4. +1
        26 October 2014 12: 50
        Denis! Two "Moscow-class" helicopter carriers were decommissioned in the distant 80s. In fact, they were anti-submarine cruiser (anti-submarine cruiser). And about four "Kiev-type attack helicopter carriers" - this is off the charts ... Read the ABC carefully.
        1. +2
          27 October 2014 10: 44
          these are fairy tales, I myself served in Leningrad in 88-89, he was in the juice
          but they were written off in the 90s, because they put it in a factory for repair, and the Soviet Union fell apart and everyone did not have time to repair
    6. ABV
      +41
      25 October 2014 21: 14
      Quote: Rum.Rum.
      Glory to the Fleet of the Russian Federation !!! soldier


      kapets! as a rally, not in the VO forum.

      Yes, of course, glory! as zhezh still .... and now as they peck on the censor .... A giant of thoughts, too, distinguished himself with a giant thought there .... Friends mzht enough to clutter the forum?
      Our fleet is big and powerful even without slogans, maybe, in essence, we will exchange opinions, and not just wash the dust off the buttons in pursuit of a cheap rating ... !!!
      SURROUNDED, SORRY ...
      1. +9
        26 October 2014 02: 01
        Quote: ABV
        kapets! as a rally, not in the VO forum.

        That at the rally it is so accurate - the time of posting the article is 18:55, the time of posting "hurray comments" - 18:56. It is impossible to read and comprehend a rather lengthy article in a minute, even obliquely. Or maybe he (Rum.Rum.) Is a genius? Although I remember such "geniuses" have already appeared here that they managed to throw slogans along with articles, and all of such rustic-patriotic content.
        I support ABV, I am also not against patriotism, but against hurray-patriots and horse racing for the sake of "ratings".
    7. The comment was deleted.
      1. Tyumen
        +6
        25 October 2014 21: 26
        Quote: ABV
        Yes, of course, glory!

        Wrong. Scream * Glory to the heroes !! * wink Just kidding, but these activists zae..li, I agree.
        1. +2
          25 October 2014 21: 33
          Quote: Tyumen
          Just kidding, but these activists zae..li, I agree.

          "For a long time" it was not heard about two friends of Russia - Ar ......... !!!!!
          1. avt
            0
            26 October 2014 09: 52
            Quote: Bayonet
            "For a long time" it was not heard about two friends of Russia - Ar ......... !!!!!

            Especially for you - “Russia has no friends. They are afraid of our enormity. "Well, actually -:" In the whole world we have only two loyal allies, "he liked to say to his ministers," our army and navy. All the rest, at the first opportunity, will take up arms against us. "
            1. Tyumen
              +3
              26 October 2014 10: 27
              Especially for you, the Shtyk jokes. The patriots got hooray. Tense with humor?
              1. avt
                +1
                26 October 2014 10: 52
                Quote: Tyumen
                Especially for you, the Shtyk jokes. The patriots got hooray. Tense with humor?

                Maybe he’s joking, no offense, the quote of Alexander III once again and not a sin, good and true phrases, now the rules, the king issued.
    8. +7
      25 October 2014 21: 28
      Quote: Rum.Rum.
      Glory to the Fleet of the Russian Federation !!! soldier

      Glory to the fleet of the Russian Empire and the Navy of the USSR !!! The Russian Navy, unlike the first two, has not yet particularly recommended itself, if only for the sale and destruction of warships and TRPKSN and nuclear submarines ...
    9. BFG9000
      +17
      25 October 2014 23: 23
      Glory to the fleet and courage of sailors! Hooray, Hooray, Uraaaaaaa! (this is not banter, but for those who understand)

      Here is a couple of stories about our industry.
      It was in St. Petersburg. It is the 671th on the slipway. The body is welded, work is underway on the installation of systems. A team of installers pulls the VVD pipeline along the compartment. How does this happen. The hard worker takes a long thick wire and crawls with it into the compartment. There, looking into the drawing, begins to bend this wire in place, i.e., the wire is a template. Then this wire, bent at 10 knees in different planes, passes up through the hatch, it is carried to the workshop. There, the worker takes the pipe and already applying the template wire to the pipe, begins to bend the pipe according to the template on the pre-war German pipe bending machine (with manual drive). Then this bent pipe is brought into the compartment, they try on it to the place and look where it is inaccurately bent. They lift the pipe back to the workshop and bend again ... and so on until complete satisfaction. But sometimes patience was not enough and if the pipe did not lie on the side, it was attached in place to the fasteners. Well, a pipeline was laid with internal stresses in the metal, what garbage ... And the next day another team of installers arrives, and they need to lay another pipeline. Arriving at the place and looking at the drawings, they see that some have incorrectly laid the VVD pipeline and it is stopping them. Without thinking twice, they remove it from the fasteners and drive their pipe in the manner described above. The next day, the first team arrives and the mat-re-start and dismantling with the chief engineer begins.

      Second story. This I myself have not seen, said the comrade. Shipyard Exactly the same story with pipelines. The meeting with the director of the plant. One brigade leader yells that another brigade has laid their pipe incorrectly. Another foreman replies that everything is correct for him, here is the drawing, the distance with reference to the centerline is observed. The first one screams that all the distances to the center plane are also correct. Noise, din, dust like a column ... The director listened, listened, and said: "and you will transfer the diametrical plane" ... The silence was ringing, everyone choked so as not to laugh. It's just that the director did not have a shipbuilding education, he is an expert on tractors, but a party member and a loyal Leninist ...

      And so the power of the country was riveted.
      1. Tyumen
        +2
        26 October 2014 00: 08
        Thanks, amused before going to bed.!
      2. +3
        26 October 2014 05: 52
        Quote: BFG9000
        Without thinking twice, they remove it from the fasteners and drive their pipe in the manner described above. The next day, the first team arrives and the mat-re-start and disassembly begins with the chief engineer

        From myself I’ll add ....
        In the United Kingdom, during the construction of the Vengard nuclear submarine, the compartment was welded upside down .... this was discovered when the boat was lowered into the water and built afloat ....
        1. BFG9000
          0
          26 October 2014 13: 29
          Funny, I didn’t read :))
          But the British are gouging.
          Americans and Germans have a much higher production culture.
      3. Alexander I
        -5
        26 October 2014 06: 15
        Well, lie a mastiff. It's just that you probably learned from Poroshenko and his slaves.
    10. +4
      26 October 2014 04: 51
      Quote: Rum.Rum.
      Glory to the Fleet of the Russian Federation !!

      A very strong argument! Minus for the worthlessness of the comment. Fortunately, that he wrote to the fleet, and not to Ukraine.
      1. 0
        26 October 2014 14: 56
        So the forum is now full of captains - obvious. when you read the post, you immediately remember the stupidity of the political leaders in the red rooms.
      2. Tyumen
        +1
        26 October 2014 16: 57
        Quote: almost demobilized
        A very strong argument!

        Come on, a guy with such inclinations will soon be a marshal here. laughing
  2. +5
    25 October 2014 19: 00
    The Russian fleet has always been and will be the support of the state. No matter who mumbles or bleats.
    1. +14
      25 October 2014 19: 21
      Quote: ALEXX.
      The Russian fleet has always been and will be the support of the state. No matter who mumbles or bleats.

      That's how it was! I hope it will be so soon!
      1. +1
        25 October 2014 20: 00
        Quote: DRA-88
        That's how it was! I hope it will be so soon!

        And what kind of boats are there in this film, they are going in a flock, but which ones? In the zone of Soviet occupation of Germany was the design bureau Gluckauf, in which projects of German boats of the XXIII and XXVI series were developed.
        Specialists from Leningrad were brought to the city of Blankenburg, where this design bureau was located, and a strictly classified organization was formed, headed by Aleksey Antipin. Using German experience, a number of large, medium and small submarines armed with traditional torpedoes and mines were created. 20 large submarines of project 611, 215 medium-sized projects of 613 and 30 small submarines of projects 615 and A615 were built, as well as one experimental submarine of project 617.
        Hoping to get back to them? So, after all, the century is already different and the fleet must be different, corresponding to the modern concept! And the modern fleet is a very expensive business.
        1. +1
          26 October 2014 00: 26
          Quote: Bayonet
          Hoping to get back to them? So the century is different and the fleet must be different,

          I just wanted to show THE POWER WE LOST
    2. +6
      25 October 2014 19: 47
      Quote: ALEXX.
      The Russian fleet has always been and will be

      Will be:
      1. The new Russian aircraft carrier will join the Russian Navy after the 2030 year!
      Source: http://politikus.ru/army/33855-novyy-rossiyskiy-avianosec-voydet-v-sostav-vmf-rf
      -posle-2030-goda.html
      Politikus.ru
      2. Argentina has agreed to the deployment of Russian military bases on its territory!

      Source: http://politikus.ru/articles/33854-argentina-dala-soglasie-na-razmeschenie-rossi
      yskih-voennyh-baz-na-svoey-territorii.html
      Politikus.ru
      1. +7
        25 October 2014 21: 19
        Quote: Rus2012
        Quote: ALEXX.
        The Russian fleet has always been and will be

        Will be:
        1. The new Russian aircraft carrier will join the Russian Navy after the 2030 year!

        What's not after 2050? By that time, for sure, "either the padishah will die, or the donkey will die" ...
        1. +3
          25 October 2014 22: 04
          Quote: PENZYAC
          What's not after 2050? By that time, for sure, "either the padishah will die, or the donkey will die" ...

          As the sages said - "stretch your legs along the clothes ..." (c)
      2. +2
        25 October 2014 21: 22
        Argentina has agreed to the deployment of Russian military bases on its territory!

        This news is already half a year old and Argentina has already refuted these allegations.
        1. 0
          25 October 2014 22: 02
          Quote: clidon
          This news is already half a year old and Argentina has already refuted these allegations.

          As you know, there will not be a military base in the 3,14 sense, but there will be a point of military-technical cooperation (military-technical supply or support).
          Read the media ...
          1. 0
            26 October 2014 20: 13
            There will be nothing. In no sense. The media reprint each other’s news six months ago.
    3. +2
      25 October 2014 21: 07
      Quote: ALEXX.
      The Russian fleet has always been and will be the support of the state. No matter who mumbles or bleats.

      Who's arguing? The question is - what should the fleet be like so that no one would “bellow, bleat” against it?
      There is no consensus here and, I think, cannot be.
      Everything should depend only on tasks and opportunities and should not depend as much as possible on the subjective preferences of political leaders, especially not specialists in relevant issues. The correctness or incorrectness of certain decisions in the military field, including the Navy, unfortunately, can only be assessed in the real conditions of a possible war, when, as a rule, it is too late to change something. We can only hope ...
      1. +4
        26 October 2014 00: 32
        Quote: PENZYAC
        Question - what should be the fleet

        It should be an effective MEANS for solving the tasks facing it. The main tasks of the fleet: the destruction of important coastal objects (rpkSN), the destruction of SSBNs (PL and other forces of the SSB), the defeat of the AMG, the destruction of carriers of the KR (plRK, MRA, RKR) ...
        For these tasks, forces are created, that is, submarines and NKs, as well as the Kyrgyz Republic and Aviation, means of support, reconnaissance and command and control.
        Quote: PENZYAC
        There is no consensus here and ... it cannot be
        Since each opinion is supported by specific people who express the interests of certain clans, industrial groups, politicians, etc. And you need a very big state mind to rise above local interests to state heights, taking into account not only wishes, but also financial and production opportunities, as well as the prospect: a warship, as a weapon system, should serve 30 years and go for it 2-3 upgrade time.
        Quote: PENZYAC
        The correctness or incorrectness of certain decisions in the military field, including the Navy, unfortunately, can only be assessed in the real conditions of a possible war,
        Practice is the criterion of truth. This is true. But I disagree with your statement. There are methods for calculating the combat effectiveness of weapons systems. But there is also such an unaccountable factor as luck, chance, commander's luck. Say - nonsense !? Then ask those who go to sea and drive ships ... "Sailors are not superstitious, they just believe in omens!"
        Quote: PENZYAC
        We can only hope ...

        that there will be enough time, and we will finally break the tradition of "not being ready for war forever." Therefore, you need to be wise and work hard, not to be provoked and prematurely drawn into the third level showdown ...
        Therefore, probably, our Supreme is a permanent member of the Naval Commission.
        The fleet is a very expensive tool, high-tech, long-term construction. Therefore, the mistake in choosing the right path is very expensive!
  3. +3
    25 October 2014 19: 00
    Well, since no one in the world has pig-driven hypertrons, why is the "old" fleet bad?
    Glory to the Russian Navy!
    1. +3
      25 October 2014 20: 07
      Quote: tanit
      what's wrong with the "old" fleet?

      The fact that he is OLD! How can the old fleet withstand the adversary with the latest modern ships ???
      1. +1
        25 October 2014 21: 21
        Quote: Bayonet
        Quote: tanit
        what's wrong with the "old" fleet?

        The fact that he is OLD! How can the old fleet withstand the adversary with the latest modern ships ???

        It can be confronted for some time and can. Only with what efficiency?
      2. +2
        25 October 2014 21: 54
        And how does a state-of-the-art plastic ship hold an old, not modern rocket in the forehead?
        1. 0
          26 October 2014 00: 40
          Quote: tanit
          And how does a state-of-the-art plastic ship hold an old, not modern rocket in the forehead?

          And how will it hold steel? The age of the battleships has passed.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      25 October 2014 21: 02
      Quote: tanit
      Glory to the Russian Navy!


      The navy. Not the Navy.
    3. 0
      26 October 2014 12: 48
      what's wrong with the "old" fleet?
      The fact that it does not correspond to the modern doctrine of the Russian Federation in the military sphere. Based on the doctrine, the fleet must perform two tasks. 1. Reflect aggression by effectively using the available means. 2. Inflict unacceptable damage on the aggressor. These are two completely dissimilar tasks. The first is solved by monitoring the current potential of the "partners", and planning the tactics and adequate means necessary to counter the enemy's means of attack. Those. here we must follow them ... And to solve the second task, it is necessary to think over tactics and adequate means for the destruction of the military-political infrastructure, taking into account their means of defense. Those. here we must find "non-traditional" ways and means. "Surprised - means won."
  4. +5
    25 October 2014 19: 07
    The Russian fleet has TRADITIONS based on historical facts! It is unlikely that anyone can feel the power of the Spirit so massively ...
    1. +5
      25 October 2014 21: 25
      Quote: Keeper
      The Russian fleet has TRADITIONS based on historical facts! It is unlikely that anyone can feel the power of the Spirit so massively ...

      The Japanese in the past (you can also recall the Zulus) have always had fortitude. But! Only by the strength of the spirit of war, to their and our regret, they are not won ...
  5. +12
    25 October 2014 19: 09
    If you look closely at our army and air force, you can see that they are more and more like NATO.
    Some very controversial statement ... there are the same laws of development. And if someone opens them first, this does not mean that the others "stupidly imitate" them. It is better to understand where and how to develop now, in peacetime, than to do this during a war. And whether we want it or not, we will always take into account the experience of others in order to try not to make other people's mistakes.
    We are ours, we will build the old fleet
    Or maybe: "We are ours, we will rebuild the RUSSIAN fleet" A brand new one and will no longer launch it like that ...
  6. avt
    +16
    25 October 2014 19: 13
    Quote: tanit
    Glory to the Russian Navy!

    Pancake ! Yes, the Navy in Russia is the Navy! Well, with regards to the article - the author famously, in an artistic style and, in his opinion, reasonably revealed and defeated the retrogrades preparing for yesterday's war yesterday, today and tomorrow - his right. Moreover, indeed, quite often generals prepare for past wars and ours not an exception. But that's the morality of the article then ??? Here in this --- “Don't we still think that the USSR and its heir, the Russian Federation, are the homeland of the world's best weapons? Do not the federal media broadcast about this and the Internet is not filled with this? "------- I do not want to argue whether Ustinov was right or wrong, I am interested in something else. a completely different topic - ordinary propaganda now called PR ??? And who does not call what they themselves are the best ??? That everything is so similar as yesterday ?? The building of the Mistral in France, for example ?? The full feeling that while the end of the article was being written - the author's thoughts were already far away in another place. For me, this perception of the article, as about something whole, blurred.
    1. Demetry
      +9
      25 October 2014 19: 30
      Quote: avt
      Pancake ! Yes, the Navy in Russia - the Navy!

      And this is not important for balabolam. The main thing is to shout (jump) the loudest and above all. And from any good idea to create show pornography !!! I generally doubt that screamers are aware of what it is (((
      It would be better if they took labor and went to build ships and not yell in the internet (((
      1. -7
        25 October 2014 19: 53
        The navy and the navy? Great difference? I know. But the Navy shouted the glory.
        Here with the work book, problems, I do not have it. And do you personally see yourself working together?
    2. 0
      25 October 2014 19: 58
      Thank you for quoting me, I am aware of the Navy and Navy, but there are many fleets in the Navy, even formally. hi
      And the article = hmm, in some places wonderful, in some places.
    3. +6
      25 October 2014 20: 26
      Although I do not agree with the author regarding our weapons, I discovered a lot of new things for myself. To be honest, I considered the increased accident rate in our fleet and the rapid failure of many large ships to be a consequence of the foolishness of crews and manufacturers, but as it turns out, this is a consequence of system errors of the military and industrial complex. And for a long time I didn’t understand why ships have been sailing for amers for 50 years, and many of us didn’t leave 15-20. Hopefully now we still brought to mind those projects that are being built and they will not be so raw and prone to accidents.
    4. +5
      26 October 2014 01: 02
      Quote: avt
      the author famously, in an artistic style and, in his opinion, reasonably revealed and defeated the retrogrades preparing for yesterday’s war

      And I felt a certain insult and desire to get even with the Navy for my failed career: he did not become an admiral, he remained an engineer-shipbuilder, and the ships were not being built at that time ...
      About the article. Not everything is as simple as it seems to the author. The irrigation system was turned off because temperature sensors were triggered, including the irrigation system pumps, and not because the pumps were bad.
      Michman (with permission) Shuportyak was a tractor driver, but ended up on a warship. He didn’t have 1,5 minutes, because after 45 seconds the first explosion of the three last on the ship sounded. This is where the MORAL spirit is needed! But the tractor driver was not ready to die on the ship! This is about the education of marine people, as Emperor Peter-1 called us.
      Further. "Brave" proved to be a more "combat" ship: 3 explosions, a fire of aviation kerosene, explosions of deep bombs! tore off the stern! but the ship remained afloat and fought for survivability! After the first explosion, it took 1600 tons of water, after the third another 1900 tons. But the British Shefield received only one Exocet anti-ship missile in the side and burned out to the ground! Even the warhead did not explode! Just burned out! Well, who's to say that the British are bad sailors? But we can say this about our IVANOV, although everyone fought to the end, until the command to leave the ship!
      And the death of the K-429 was organized by the "staff", sending a non-linear crew to the sea. And to cover the ass, they also put the second one. Bottom line: instead of 87, there were 120 people on the boat. Therefore, the direction of rotation of the ventilation shaft cover of the 4th compartment was confused ... And this is about the training of crews, the human factor, and not the reliability of our equipment! Then 16 people died: 14 in the emergency 4th compartment and 2 sailors when leaving the TA upstairs - one of them stopped his heart in the TA tube, the second got entangled by the buoy-view's halyard. And the boats of the 670 project were reliable and the best in terms of habitability. Therefore, the Indians and rented this.
      1. avt
        +2
        26 October 2014 09: 46
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        Michman (with permission) Shuportyak was a tractor driver, but ended up on a warship. He didn’t have 1,5 minutes, because after 45 seconds the first explosion of the three last on the ship sounded. This is where the MORAL spirit is needed! But the tractor driver was not ready to die on the ship! This is about the education of marine people, as Emperor Peter-1 called us.
        good As the subsequent experiment on the compartment showed - he just had to turn it on in manual mode - press the button of the fire system and the ship would be saved. But he rushed from the post to warn everyone about the fire. And the crew acted above all praise - selflessly in the fight for the ship. Gorshkov generally wanted to give them a new ship, but ...... there is already "Old Square" and GlavPur ....
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        And the death of the K-429 was organized by the "staff", sending a non-linear crew to the sea. And to cover the ass, they also put the second one. Result: instead of 87, there were 120 people on the boat.

        "Komsomolets" was also released with a crew that did not pass the test for survivability - they pulled them up "satisfactorily", the boat under the command of Britanov was pushed out of the base with a leak, the report was answered - "It's none of your business." Here you can agree with the author - a specific flaw in the system. The boss is always right and he knows better. Here in the USA Rikover could specifically, if not break, then minimize this caste system on the submarine, for which they hated him and did not make him an admiral for a long time. , and he just asked - "and Heim said what?" Those like - "sent" "Well, what can I" He personally selected officers for nuclear boats, not looking at the caste system.
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        About the article. Not everything is as simple as it seems to the author.

        A messy article turned out - it seems that common thoughts slip through, in my opinion, but emotions overflow and gallop from topic to topic without going into specific details and, accordingly, there is no objective picture of events from all angles, here is the ending, as I said, as if from another article is pasted. I didn’t put anything. Although it would be possible for a "welded pop-up camera", but this only strengthens me in my assessment of the article.
  7. +3
    25 October 2014 19: 27
    Criticism of the author about the fleet is inappropriate. He cited an example of accidents that occur on land above the roof. Yes, there are no perfect projects the first time, new missiles and planes are also falling, tests are needed. After all, all calculations in relation to practice are approximate and do not reflect real conditions; a refinement is needed. Put article minus, tk. the author cracked unrelated facts. And here ekranoplan?
    1. +6
      25 October 2014 20: 27
      Criticism of the author about the fleet is inappropriate. He cited an example of accidents that occur on land above the roof. Yes, there are no perfect projects the first time, new missiles and planes are also falling, tests are needed.

      If only ...
      It is widely known that on K-429 not only emergency pop-up buoys (ABB), but also a pop-up camera (VSK) were welded.

      K-429 - 670 WHERE did the VSK come from? fool
      Shame on the author am A graduate of the former Zhurzhinka korpak (judging by the specialty of a deceased classmate) writes such nonsense. Which, nevertheless, fully characterizes the "expertness" of his assessments.
      1. +1
        26 October 2014 01: 15
        Quote: mpa945
        K-429 - 670 WHERE did the VSK come from?

        AFTORRRR! that says it all! It’s interesting: what did he build? If such blunders on the whole And-no admit-poop !?
        Quote: mpa945
        Shame on the author

        Yes
    2. +3
      25 October 2014 20: 27
      Criticism of the author about the fleet is inappropriate.
      It seems that the article was written by a person to the fleet who did not have and does not have. I suppose that the author graduated from the Shipbuilding Institute in the year 1995 and did not see the fleet at all, and draws conclusions based on the stories of his father, teachers, other people and archives. Already, he does not have the right to speak about the continuity of the fleet.
      1. +2
        25 October 2014 20: 35
        I will assume that the author graduated from the Shipbuilding Institute in the year 1995
        correction - in 1998
  8. avt
    +13
    25 October 2014 19: 30
    Quote: Good
    . And here ekranoplan?

    He does not like them.
  9. rumata63
    +2
    25 October 2014 19: 43
    the author took a lot upon himself, one must be more modest.
    1. +2
      25 October 2014 21: 31
      Quote: rumata63
      the author took a lot upon himself, one must be more modest.

      Why?! In disputes, truth is born and "modesty" does not adorn them. hi
      1. Kassandra
        0
        26 October 2014 00: 01
        because.
        truth is not born in disputes, but behind culmans, helms and posts. good if not in battle.
        1. 0
          26 October 2014 00: 07
          Excuse me, but often "truth" is born not behind drawing boards, but in offices. Often. And the army begins to buy not what it needs.
          1. Kassandra
            0
            26 October 2014 01: 07
            and this is no longer the truth, but the "truth" then ...
  10. +3
    25 October 2014 19: 49
    The position of the author is not clear. The criticism is good, but I did something myself. Over the past 20 years, the fleet has been almost completely destroyed. The former past is overgrown. Only where does the construction of the old fleet.
  11. +1
    25 October 2014 19: 50
    an interesting article is enough, but here's the question - there is criticism in the article and what concrete is being proposed now
    1. Kassandra
      0
      26 October 2014 00: 04
      specifically, now they are watching comments to know what the people will offer here so that later they’ll shit directly into their hands, in their pockets and behind the collar wassat
  12. +2
    25 October 2014 19: 57
    what is the solution?
  13. +7
    25 October 2014 20: 00
    The article is a bit like a scientific and technical report, with some historical digressions. But any scientific and technical report ends with specific conclusions. Where are they here? To be honest, I did not understand the main idea of ​​the author.
    1. +3
      25 October 2014 21: 35
      Quote: Stock Officer
      The article is a bit like a scientific and technical report, with some historical digressions. But any scientific and technical report ends with specific conclusions. Where are they here? To be honest, I did not understand the main idea of ​​the author.

      Well, why? The author wrote about what he did not want to see in the fleet (and not only), left specific recommendations to specialists, wishing only that they would not ignore his fears.
    2. Mih
      +1
      25 October 2014 23: 26
      I did not understand the main idea of ​​the author.

      Yes, I didn’t understand - that everything is so hu from hu? recourse
  14. +12
    25 October 2014 20: 14
    forever relevant "experience of World War II, as well as the experience of the Battle of Kulikovo and the Battle of Borodino! Our T-50 is similar to F-22, as IL-4 were similar to Henkel 111, La-5 to Fw-190, Spitfire to Yak-1. “You're the boss — me.” Even in the horde, Genghis Khan established responsibility for dozens for one, hundreds for ten, and so on. And in what other army, the winner, the lower rank could condemn the senior in rank. Can we recall the soldiers' committees in 1917? and what it led to! This is unthinkable in the U.S. Navy, since there the manufacturer is directly financially responsible for its creations. And when the Senate and Congress investigated the death of Thresher, no one was shy about naming errors. The manufacturer carried out the establishment of the US Navy and the project was also approved by specialists, the execution of the company ordering congress and the project brings revenue to the company, and if errors were found in the project that were not related to the work of the company, then eliminating such errors is an additional income to the company. If it turns out that this is the fault of the company for not fulfilling the order and the project, and the changes made to the project, in order to improve the project, are punished with penalties.
    There are too many emotions and accusations on the topic: do not look how it was, look how it should be and do not look at what is bad with them, look how bad it was and how bad it will be. Have you forgotten how the decks of the English destroyers made of aluminum alloy burned from one cannon burst from the plane? How disgraced the "Patriots" in Israel? How "Abrams" burn out from a shot of a Soviet RPG, with a shot cost of $ 100.
    1. Kassandra
      +3
      26 October 2014 00: 09
      in terms of aircraft similarity, he smiled ... Airbas also looks like a Boeing, but do they have much in common there? Yes
  15. 0
    25 October 2014 20: 17
    The author blinked the garbage: "they are more and more like NATO"
    My opinion, if anyone copies anyone, it’s them, NATs, us. For about the uniqueness of weapons, tactics, strategies and inventiveness it is customary (so it happened) to speak, implying Russia, Russia - Mother.
    Where are they to us.
    The concept of the uniqueness of the ground forces and the air force (as I think) has been preserved, maybe not all. However, "copy" is not in our rules.
    Russians are above it.
    1. Demetry
      0
      25 October 2014 20: 30
      Quote: timhelmet
      My opinion, if anyone copies anyone, it’s them, NATs, us.

      Well, ask why our atomic strategists in the west called "Vania-Washington" and what does this name have to do with the VERY similar American submarine "George Washington" built 8-9 years before our project 667. Just take an interest in the history of your native fleet.
      .... and "Ivan-Tarava" have you met nowhere either?
      Take an interest.
      1. Kassandra
        0
        26 October 2014 00: 12
        and to this "SOOOL similar American submarine" the Soviet specialists had access to copy (like Lockheed's specialists to the Yak-141), right?

        Timhelmet right - brains flow from where there are many to where they are few.
    2. 0
      25 October 2014 21: 41
      Quote: timhelmet
      ... However, "copy" is not in our rules.
      Russians are above it.

      Copying and borrowing the best and practice-proven solutions is, in my opinion, not the same thing. And emotions are better to show on the day of victory.
  16. +2
    25 October 2014 20: 19
    Well, I read this cry of Princess Yaroslavna, completely negative. All that industry didn’t give the fleet-bullshit and scrap metal crews were completely ras3.14piddya-in short, we crawl to the cemetery or bow to bow. Author, just explain please, we have at least something on the fleet Is there anything good?
    1. +5
      25 October 2014 22: 04
      According to the author, he is very good personally. A cabinet sharkun named after the pope, who never went to sea. General phrases firsthand, without serious argumentation. An attempt at personal PR. Essentially sucks.
  17. +1
    25 October 2014 20: 19
    Quote: Stock Officer
    The article is a bit like a scientific and technical report, with some historical digressions. But any scientific and technical report ends with specific conclusions. Where are they here? To be honest, I did not understand the main idea of ​​the author.

    Yes, the author doesn’t seem to be in the topic ... in fact, we seem to be lagging behind on surface ships, but we are compensating in other directions. Well, yes, we need to work, work hard, why is it so thick?
    1. +2
      25 October 2014 21: 47
      Quote: nikkon09
      Quote: Stock Officer
      The article is a bit like a scientific and technical report, with some historical digressions. But any scientific and technical report ends with specific conclusions. Where are they here? To be honest, I did not understand the main idea of ​​the author.

      Yes, the author doesn’t seem to be in the topic ... in fact, we seem to be lagging behind on surface ships, but we are compensating in other directions. Well, yes, we need to work, work hard, why is it so thick?

      In my opinion, it is better to thicken the colors a little now, in a relatively peaceful time, than to bite your elbows from wasted opportunities later, when the time "H" comes ...
      An article is information for consideration, no more, but no less. In my opinion so.
  18. +3
    25 October 2014 20: 23
    As for my ekranoplanes, I personally don’t agree with your position (the author of the article). I’m sure that they will return to their construction. First of all, because it will be the best airborne transport vehicle and has tremendous striking power, already in 5 -7 years, if not earlier. I agree that the role of aircraft carriers in the 70-8th was underestimated, but we must admit that it was not so much the compilers of the naval doctrine that were to blame, but that we did not have experience in building such large ships as TARK, there was not and not soon a full-fledged deck aircraft appeared. Now another problem is to start a program to build aircraft carriers, but what? High-precision weapons are developing at a pace - Mama Do not Cry, coastal missile systems, well-sheltered, will soon be able to hit sea targets for thousands of miles. So, you need to think before you spend money.
    1. Kassandra
      0
      26 October 2014 00: 16
      Yes, everyone had ... The MiG-23 is a carrier-based aircraft (like the F-14), just "avians are weapons of aggression", these people hold their own Politburo for eggs
    2. +3
      26 October 2014 01: 40
      Quote: polkovnik manuch
      Regarding ekranoplanes my colleague I personally do not agree with your position (the author of the article).

      Of course, because the author does not even imagine that the ekranoplan can fly in an airplane. Yes, the speed is not big, about 500 km / h, the height is several hundred meters. But on the screen it is more economical than any plane, faster than any ship.
  19. +1
    25 October 2014 20: 24
    Stalin and the heroes of the Civil were looking for "simple solutions."
    That did not stop our fleet from slaughtering nemchuru during the Great Patriotic War! The Russian and Soviet fleets won the Glory of the Winner AND WILL BE SO! We will stand, otherwise we cannot! hi
    1. +7
      25 October 2014 20: 35
      A lag in technology is always paid by lives. That would be worth remembering.
    2. +1
      25 October 2014 20: 39
      And what was the Soviet Navy noted for? And Russian after Chesma? He died heroically, or fought without a chance of victory, or betrayed a "black death".
      And it was necessary to win. I believe = there will be victories. In the meantime, stupidly believe.
      1. Kassandra
        +1
        26 October 2014 00: 20
        Despite a lot, imagine it was noted, especially in the 50s there was no Strategic Missile Forces
      2. 0
        26 October 2014 17: 53
        Quote: tanit
        And Russian after Chesma? He died heroically or fought without a chance of victory, or gave out "black death".

        Sailing after Chesma gave Navarin, Corfu, Sinop and others (Sinop was the last)
        after Sinop, individual ships already performed feats ..
        and the generals no longer won (lost everything well or reduced to a draw)
        just the opponents were no longer Swedes and Turks .. and the masters of the seas .. they are more experienced.
        1. Kassandra
          0
          28 October 2014 20: 41
          those Englishmen who know that there is such Ushakov, almost everyone does not like him very much - Nelson was at one time under his command in the Mediterranean, practiced.

          after all, the admiral won all his battles and did not lose no one the ship.

          just England and Japan are islands, Germany has the Kiel Canal, the USA has the Panama Canal, this allows maneuvering by forces (England still had Suez before 1956).
          Russia, on the contrary, has the most uncomfortable access to the seas.

          the French and German fleets are certainly not any nicer than the Russian, but
          The "masters of the seas" in the Dardanelles, unlike Ushakov, raked them off to the fullest. moreover, on armored steel ships, and not on wooden sailing ships. tongue
        2. Kassandra
          0
          28 October 2014 21: 08
          the Russians in the Far East, through the common efforts of their "partners" who helped Japan almost as much as before in Crimean Turkey, was Tsushima

          the united Anglo-American squadron had a failure in one of the battles for the forts of Dagu (Taku).
    3. hoard
      +2
      25 October 2014 23: 43
      Quote: Loner_53
      What did not stop our fleet from pecking during the Great Patriotic War!

      You, apparently, confuse the military history and the history of the CPSU))) If in the history of the CPSU our fleet red-handedly hollowed out nonsense, then in the military history that future officers read in naval universities, the Soviet Navy performed generally ineffectively in the 2nd World War. Alas.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  20. +5
    25 October 2014 20: 35
    The trouble with authors like Alexander Nikolsky is that they do not understand that the Russian Federation is the heir to the empire. No heir EMPIRE! If someone does not understand, then the Russian Empire !. It's no secret that the Russian Federation took upon itself all the responsibilities of the Russian Empire. But this implies taking simultaneously all rights. And the rights are to put in the place of all cattle. And if it puffs, then this is his personal problem.
  21. 0
    25 October 2014 20: 41
    Glory to the Russian fleet !!! By the way, Russian squadron of vodka with a silver mine inside was released. I will accept for our fleet, let it be the strongest always !!!
  22. GUS
    +4
    25 October 2014 20: 43
    The article is wonderful. I started back in the Soviet "defense industry" and I agree with the author on literally everything. Fundamentally, nothing has changed, only his Majesty's plan ruled earlier, but now everything depends on the ability to snatch funding. The result is the same: to rivet something cheaper and a larger number, maybe the adversary will be bothered. And the most ingenious developments were then and are now, but try to start the series. The idea is good, but we will not break the established technological process, it is very troublesome. Therefore, we are marking time for the most part.
    units on the spot, upgrading obsolete models instead of releasing something fundamentally new. And about the vaunted Soviet quality: they agreed with the then military representatives no worse than with the current ones, and the factory brigades from the troops did not come out and did not come out. ? You need to decide on the concept, but after deciding to execute, it’s tough. So far no one has been pushing us from the top
    it’s not going to move, because the initiative is punishable. Western experience certainly needs to be taken into account, but you shouldn’t rely on it either. You mustache yourself. Otherwise, we risk becoming a copyist, and this is a lag.

    I take off my hat to the author.
    1. -5
      25 October 2014 20: 52
      The last victory of the fleet is the victory of Nakhimov. He then died on the land bastion. The last man of genius, with the rank of Admiral Makarov. He died with the ship.
      Kuznetsov and Gorshkov - their pale shadows.
      1. +2
        25 October 2014 21: 42
        The last man of genius, with the rank of Admiral Makarov. - brilliant, then brilliant, but did not give the command to clear the fairway before the ships of the Port Arthur squadron went into the sea, which resulted in the death of Petropavlovsk and himself.
        1. 0
          25 October 2014 21: 52
          So ingenious people was. Not a naval commander, alas ... Well, He did not have time to become one. What does not belittle his glory.
          1. 0
            25 October 2014 22: 04
            So offhand ... Armor-piercing-blank, cumulative shells of his. Bulkheads on warships of his. Well, why did a man, a brilliant man, die because his inventions were not embodied in steel?
            1. 0
              26 October 2014 03: 09
              Makarov, the Turks in the extreme Russian-Turkish, drove into the base and did not let out. In the absence of a fleet as such in the Black Sea.
      2. Kassandra
        +1
        26 October 2014 00: 29
        at least start with the Tirpitz torpedo from which half of the Royal Navy fled, and the Gustlov torpedo on which all the crews died for more than a hundred ready-made oceanic submarines of the XNUMXst series
        the last episode generally predetermined WW2 in Europe - the Germans could easily block the Atlantic with them and then strike WMD from these boats in America.
        1. hoard
          0
          26 October 2014 00: 54
          Quote: Kassandra
          and Gustlov’s torpedoes on which all the crews died for more than a hundred ready-made oceanic submarines of the XXIth series and the last episode was generally predetermined by WW2 in Europe - the Germans could easily block the Atlantic with them and then strike WMD from these boats with America.

          You have read a frivolous press and seen enough movies. From Wiki:
          "According to modern estimates, about 6000 people died. The ship carried:
          173 crew member
          162 wounded Wehrmacht soldiers
          373 female soldiers
          918 sailors and officers of the 2nd training division of the submarine forces
          3000 unidentified persons
          about 5000 refugees (including about 3000 children, the rest are mostly women) "
          About "it is easy to block the Atlantic" and "to hit America with weapons of mass destruction" - they laughed, for this plus))))
          Quote: Kassandra
          Tirpitz from which half Royal Navy ran

          It would be correct to say "for which". By the way, they caught up with Bismarck)))
          1. Kassandra
            0
            28 October 2014 18: 52
            Magot, you are not on the way - 3000 unidentified persons, who is this? ... there were actually more than 1700 submariners.
            boats based on the XXI-series after the war formed the basis of submarine forces in all countries until the mass of nuclear submarines (70s)
            The Germans, like the Japanese, had WMDs, Japanese carrier boats for Soviet reparations did not go at all,
            laughter without reason is a sign of fooling around.

            Well, they caught up with Bismarck, but they ran away from Tirpitz with an escort who wasn’t so framed already, the defeat of the PQ-17 convoy was like that ...
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      25 October 2014 21: 02
      Quote: GUS
      You need to decide on a concept

      With a concept and with priorities. We also have a problem with this. Not what is needed right now is going to the troops, but what can be beautifully reported.
    3. 0
      25 October 2014 22: 07
      you better eat it. Without mayonnaise.
  23. +2
    25 October 2014 20: 49
    Great article. All these problems were, and turning a blind eye to them is bad for the future. The mistakes of the past must be analyzed and their causes eliminated, and not in a sweet euphoria.
  24. 0
    25 October 2014 20: 56
    Quote: Arberes
    The time will come (sorry, I probably will not live)

    We have only ONE ALLY! This is the Navy and the Army!
    1. 0
      25 October 2014 21: 02
      plus Strategic Missile Forces and East Kazakhstan
  25. +3
    25 October 2014 21: 04
    IMHO. As if justified, feels guilty. It smells of rot. The info seems to be interesting. But what is written between the lines ... some offended one. DID NOT LIKE.
  26. +3
    25 October 2014 21: 08
    Extremely sensible article. Although it is clear that the author is not associated with the fleet, the personality of this man’s father is extremely well-known in narrow circles, so this is a very truthful look from the inside on the military-industrial complex of the USSR in relation to the fleet. It is worth showing to those who think that everything was gorgeous in the military-industrial complex of the USSR, and now we are eating up supplies, etc. etc.
    But to people who are minus the article ... Could not read to the end? Or too cool a revelation for some?
    1. 0
      26 October 2014 00: 10
      About war. There is such an observation: generals always prepare for the last war .... http: //dotu.ru/2014/08/29/20140828_about_wars/ what is science - such is lifehttp: //dotu.ru/2014/08/ 18 / 20140818_science_and_life /
    2. +3
      26 October 2014 03: 24
      1. The article is illiterate with a lot of errors (I’ll probably do a detailed analysis in the response article in the HBO)
      2. Estimates of the author's father, to put it mildly, are different. In fact, he is INCOMPETENT in military matters (and absolutely close to the word), at least in the days of the USSR (today’s articles are much more real, but with a number of significant inconsistencies)
      1. +1
        26 October 2014 09: 52
        The article is sensible in that it shows how industry and the Ministry of Defense were related. The fact that in many cases it wasn’t the MO that ordered the armament, but the industry and the party shoved the MO’s armament — that’s the point of the article.
        And where does such knowledge come from competence or not? Do you also work in the military-industrial complex on naval issues since Soviet times?
        I will ask one person about the explanatory nature of the article and then I can deliver a final verdict for myself. I trust this person completely, because the years of his service covered a lot on the Federation Council (1978-2008). And now he is directly connected with the military-industrial complex of the navy and will be able to explain me much more intelligently.
        1. Kassandra
          0
          28 October 2014 20: 04
          and why, since Soviet times, VTOL aircraft have been called vertical TAKEOFF rather than vertical landing aircraft, as those who use them correctly and who call them STOVL (Landing)?

          the meaning of the article is that she herself "cramps" that Yakovlev and Alekseev (ekranoplanes) is bad ...
          STOVL is in any self-respecting fleet (except French), and the Americans have the most of them, and the ekranoplanes are already full of Germans and Iran.
  27. +5
    25 October 2014 21: 15
    I’m not a sailor, but even I understand that comparing pkr1239 and 1234 by the difference in cost by 2,5 times is not correct, because I do not say sea lions both in terms of displacement and armament, they are twice as fast as gadgets, they are also technologically more advanced, hence the difference in the cost of construction and maintenance, and a speed of 100 km per hour is not for missile defense. and another question for the author, yet according to you Gorshkov, Ustinov, etc., genius or senility-idiots? something unclear your article.
    1. +1
      26 October 2014 09: 55
      I think the author meant to say that Gorshkov wanted to modernize the fleet. So that the fleet gets at least something new. To do this, it was necessary to turn a blind eye to the party’s tendencies, which he did. This is wrong, but what could he do with the Central Committee of the CPSU? To criticize them? Then he would instantly be dismissed from his post and would have appointed a pleasing man who would not do a damn thing, but only silently looked into the mouths of the apparatchiks. These were the rules of the "game" and Gorshkov understood and accepted them. I could not stand it, but I accepted it.
  28. +2
    25 October 2014 21: 31
    In my opinion, I could be wrong, an urgently needed submarine fleet in all configurations is now urgently needed. We need an invisible shock fist, which would be in all regions of the oceans, so that America knows that retaliation is inevitable and it will have to wait from anywhere in the world. Therefore, it is necessary to build all classes of submarines and ships of the fleet of their escort, as well as a huge infrastructure for maintaining the submarine fleet.
    1. Mih
      +1
      25 October 2014 23: 19
      urgently needed submarine fleet in all configurations.

      There are hunters, with all the ensuing consequences. We need a new concept for building submarines - their maximum stealth and noiselessness. (And if only speed!) Yes
  29. +2
    25 October 2014 21: 36
    Quote: ABV
    Quote: Rum.Rum.
    Glory to the Fleet of the Russian Federation !!! soldier


    kapets! as a rally, not in the VO forum.

    Yes, of course, glory! as zhezh still .... and now as they peck on the censor .... A giant of thoughts, too, distinguished himself with a giant thought there .... Friends mzht enough to clutter the forum?
    Our fleet is big and powerful even without slogans, maybe, in essence, we will exchange opinions, and not just wash the dust off the buttons in pursuit of a cheap rating ... !!!
    SURROUNDED, SORRY ...

    in the very least, dot. Plus.
  30. +2
    25 October 2014 21: 40
    Once again, for everyone who dreams of "the aircraft carrier fleet of Russia." Why do we need it? To fight the Papuans?
    1. +2
      26 October 2014 02: 05
      Quote: Megatron
      Once again, for everyone who dreams of "the aircraft carrier fleet of Russia." Why do we need it? To fight the Papuans?

      I answer a lover of poitas!
      It is needed to ensure the combat stability of the fleet's forces outside the reach of shore-based IA.
      According to the calculations of the Military Aviation Administration: without air cover, our rkSNy on the second day end their existence.
      Are you doing this?
      1. -2
        26 October 2014 12: 37
        On the second day of what?
        1. +2
          26 October 2014 18: 08
          Quote: chunga-changa
          On the second day of what?

          Deployment in RDB.
          A brief quote about the findings of this research:
          "1) the aviation support of the Navy is a primary and urgent task, since it affects the development of NSNF; without air cover under the conditions of the dominance of anti-submarine aviation of a potential enemy, we will not be able to ensure not only combat stability, but also the deployment of our submarines, both with ballistic missiles and multi-purpose ones, which are the main striking force of the Navy.
          2) Without fighter cover, the successful operation of coastal missile-carrying, reconnaissance and anti-submarine aviation, the second most important strike component of the Navy, is impossible.
          3) More or less acceptable combat stability of surface ships is impossible without fighter cover. "

          http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/0/archive/36/36340.htm
        2. Kassandra
          0
          28 October 2014 19: 13
          on the second day of the threatened period

          and not only the SSBN, but in general the entire Navy, after they take all the nuclear submarines in two days on a pencil, they are then destroyed all 5 minutes.

          NK with good air defense systems can hold out for several more hours (and there is only one)
          the rest is enough for half an hour, no more.
          1. -1
            2 November 2014 19: 49
            It is amazingly logical, horses and people mingled in a bunch. What is resilience? What? "Threatened period" - peacetime, no one will allow to shoot down enemy patrol aircraft, but how else to counteract? Submarines of the Northern Fleet left for positions under the ice of the polar cap, how will you ensure their combat stability with surface ships, will you send aircraft carrier nuclear icebreakers? Submarines KTOF are on duty in the southern part of the Pacific Ocean, how long will surface ships with aircraft carriers go there and why? And will their presence in the area unambiguously unmask our submarines?
            Only submarine escorts can give combat stability to the SSBNs and they will defend from the enemy’s submarines. Stop raving battles of surface ships under the guise of fighters with AB, it's all in the distant past, 70 years have passed.
            The carrier group is the core of the landing force, the Americans do not use them seriously in any other way, and besides them, the AB used only the Angles, and for exactly the same purposes, and with an emphasis on shock capabilities to support the landing. So this is not in any way "giving stability" to the forces of the fleet, but the air support of the amphibious assault. Where are we going to land, strategists, and from what?
            1. Kassandra
              0
              4 November 2014 09: 00
              How exactly will not allow?

              under the polar cap, the main load on the anti-submarine submarines, this polar cap is small and has halved in recent years, and off the Russian coast.

              and how much do they themselves go there, to the south of the Pacific Ocean (not under the polar cap, the south is not the north, this is a completely different direction ...) go?
              and the American aircraft carriers do not give out in the presence of their submarine missile carriers?

              how will the support submarines perform the air defense functions of the same submarines protected by them (SSBN)?

              You did not finish the Odessa seaman? bully

              how the Americans use their carrier-based anti-submarine aircraft showed the Cuban crisis.
              major battles were last seen in 1982.

              in general, the thought of fighting on land without aviation as in 1941 smiles? that's the same over the sea ... that's why the sweetest "to-do .. yes-do" look for a fool for yourself somewhere in Antarctica, on delivery ...
  31. +2
    25 October 2014 21: 43
    Judging by the mournful whining, the path of development of our Armed Forces and the Navy is close to the correct one and the "MATTRESSES" cannot oppose anything yet. Especially - about the prices of the ekranoplan and the TU-160, this is the same as comparing the prices for a 600 gelding and a Kirovets tractor. And I agree about the mess in the military-industrial complex and the Armed Forces.
    It’s easier to negotiate than to fix it.
  32. +7
    25 October 2014 22: 22
    But if this error, arising from the communist ideology, can be understood, then how can we understand today?
    The author did not say the most important thing, but how does he himself see the modern Russian fleet? Only one of the article is clear - the UPPP, this is bad, Soviet, this is bad. Is this really determined by the fact that "the president demands to study the experience of NATO," that is, NATO should be a standard for our fleet, and our not yet "capitalist" admirals, according to this logic, should not be "smarter" than our already "capitalist" generals? We have four main fleets and one flotilla in the Caspian Sea, and in wartime conditions the Black and Baltic Seas are practically like the closed Caspian Sea for us, because of the blockade of the straits. The United States and its allies envisage a blockade of TF and Northern Fleet, but, nevertheless, these fleets, fleets of the "open sea". We cannot blindly copy NATO doctrines, under which their fleet is built, by the way, not without taking into account cooperation and complementarity, since, excuse me, we have our own geographic and political specifics, and, you must understand, our own defense doctrine of war. Our fleet must ensure the interests of Russia, the defense of Russia, if NATO has something that can be adopted for this, then it must be adopted. There is no national multiplication table, but there are national interests, and our fleet must be "sharpened" under these interests. This is firstly, and secondly, a sufficiently strong fleet is needed (a weak fleet does not make sense), and a strong fleet must necessarily be balanced, organic, at sea, as in chess, not only pawns and light pieces are needed, but also heavy ones. , in a harmonious ratio.
    1. +4
      25 October 2014 22: 36
      you know, I also came to this conclusion, the author muddied the bodyagi, but did not reach its logical conclusion. how does he see the fleet? what, in his opinion, should the current take? I really didn’t even understand what miscalculations he imputed to the former. as Stirlitz said in 17 instants: -to criticize and anger is always easier, to put forward a reasonable program of action is much more difficult.
    2. +1
      25 October 2014 22: 37
      Not a modern fleet will be able to sink
      "modern". Here's what the author didn't say. hi
  33. +4
    25 October 2014 22: 26
    Our country would have a respite to restore the army and navy normally, but no, these North Atlantic Saxons want blood ...
  34. viruvalge412ee
    +1
    25 October 2014 22: 26
    What is written in the article is extremely important in all respects! Other times dictate different rules. Our groundwork and their technologies have not disappeared into oblivion. The hour "H" will sound and ... EVERYTHING! Let's set up a release. Bourgeois-END
    1. +2
      25 October 2014 22: 46
      Uh-huh ... But on my watch, I'm very afraid to hear- "Baikonur-Edelweiss" I'm afraid = I'm talking about the hour H, time T and about the full Z. No, we’ll fight back, but I don’t want to hear such a command hi
      And I don’t want anyone.
  35. +4
    25 October 2014 22: 39
    I once dreamed of becoming a naval officer ... But ... It did not work out. He studied, served in the USSR Armed Forces ... The result ... Now he is a lieutenant colonel of one of the Russian special services. I love my homeland and I cannot imagine myself without service in its interests. I love our fleet tremendously ... I dream that someday our fleet will become the most powerful and invincible. Will survive. and put our enemies ... on both shoulder blades! Sailor brothers! Fill the enemy ... ah! Vile blacks are not our comrades! Show them where the crayfish hibernate!
  36. Alexander
    +4
    25 October 2014 22: 43
    "Our T-50 is similar to the F-22, and they have the same concept" yes, it looks like a pig like a horse, but the wool is not like that! You, my friend, do not confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs - the concept of the F-22 is to invisibly strike the enemy and slip away unnoticed, because he is a super-duper invisible, flying like an iron and maneuvering close combat is contraindicated for him. Our T-50 is an all-rounder at any distance, both in close maneuvering combat and in the distant, outside the zone of enemy return fire.
    1. +2
      26 October 2014 00: 05
      you can chop an ax with an ax, but you can cook porridge, that is, the concept of application is purely subjective. The laws of physics, mathematics and chemistry are the same everywhere and objective, but when playing with numbers, you can let a lot of fog
  37. Mih
    +4
    25 October 2014 23: 04
    If you look closely at our army and the air force, you can see that keeping in the service of generals and admirals, whom the army loves more than the general secretary, was literally deadly.
    Another thing is the Navy, where not only the concept of the Soviet fleet is not disputed, but is also extolled as the only true one for modern Russia.
    And yet, this article is not primarily about ships and admirals, it is about you and me, for each people is worthy not only of its government, but also of its army.
    As a result, three Soviet “virtues” took root in the fleet. Leadership at the top gave birth to leaders on the ground, hence the virtue - "you are the boss - I am."
    You understand who my informant is. My father is a very valuable source
    Participation in local conflicts was not considered at all, and the fleet was not prepared for them.
    Now about the perfection of the ships. Participating in a conspiracy, the fleet was often forced to order not what he wanted.
    So who prevented Ustinov from opening his eyes? Question.
    But this is a fallacy stemming from communist ideology.

    Well, the article! I am in shock. So, what is next? hi
  38. 0
    25 October 2014 23: 16
    Okay, be patient, a cold shower will not hurt! The ancestors were right - measure seven times - cut once! First you have to count, then think more (preferably three together), and then spend "tenge".
  39. Alexander
    +2
    25 October 2014 23: 23
    Quote: Megatron
    Once again, for everyone who dreams of "the aircraft carrier fleet of Russia." Why do we need it? To fight the Papuans?


    History teaches you nothing. After the era of battleships, the era of aircraft carriers entered the sea. Yamato and Musashi did not sink the formidable American battleships, but Helldivers and Avengers. And Bismarck was sentenced by antediluvian plywood torpedo biplane Swordfish. Now F / A-18 is the main striking force of US aircraft carriers, the combat radius is 1065 km, i.e. its combat radius without taking into account the launch range of its missiles is greater than the launch range of any of our anti-ship missiles. This means that the aircraft carrier using the AWACS aircraft detects our ship at a safe distance, picks up the F / A-18 link, which launch a missile strike on the ship without entering the ship’s air defense strike zone and calmly leave for a new batch of missiles. Our ship can only fight back from a missile attack trying to get closer to the launch distance of anti-ship missiles. That's why an aircraft carrier is the most formidable force at sea. And in the Union they understood this, because Varyag and nuclear Ulyanovsk were built at the Nikolaev shipyard. And so the United States has made every effort so that they are not completed.
    1. 0
      25 October 2014 23: 39
      I contradict myself ... And who is the "coolest" battleship for now? And in whose Navy, the hell is its wording, that is, in the Navy it is? hi
    2. 0
      25 October 2014 23: 50
      Quote: alexandr
      That's why an aircraft carrier is the most formidable force at sea.

      As before, the most formidable battleships were? Aren't you afraid that the era of aircraft carriers will also pass when the Chinese learn to hit them with ballistic missiles?
      1. 0
        25 October 2014 23: 57
        generals always prepare for the last war. http://dotu.ru/2014/08/29/20140828_about_wars/
      2. 0
        26 October 2014 12: 43
        In general, submarines of various types and classes have long been the most formidable force, the time of battleships and aircraft carriers is long behind. "Shinano", which was supposed to sink all the battleships of America, died from one submarine. It's just that our hurray-patriots and ship modelers really want at least one large aircraft carrier to satisfy their complexes, how is it, a great country and there is no nuclear AB. The fact that we have submarines at a high level and in an acceptable quantity is not impressive for some reason.
        1. Kassandra
          0
          28 October 2014 20: 12
          Not impressive! In general, who is who showed the Cuban crisis, where all the formidable submarines aircraft carriers blurted out and forced to emerge.

          it’s just that some people with dual citizenship want Russia to have none, and America to have 20 (+ a dozen more for ASEAN and NATO).
        2. Kassandra
          0
          28 October 2014 20: 29
          PS. the Russian Federation has atomic icebreakers, there are atomic submarines in large quantities and qualities - for some reason there’s not a single atomic carrier ... I wonder who could benefit from it?

          PPS farts grated jeans?
    3. Kassandra
      0
      28 October 2014 19: 03
      In general, yes, but not exactly about WWII - almost all of the Japanese battleships were sunk not with decks but with the B-17 and B-29, which the Japanese did not have to counteract with fighters and fuel.
      The aircraft carrier is still dangerous because anti-submarine aircraft flies from it, and when it accompanies or searches for a submarine, it’s not something that cannot prevent it from doing this — in most cases it finds out that it was found only when it was hit by an anti-submarine torpedo deep in the hull .
      In the Union, Moscow was badly punished by everyone. sad
  40. +1
    25 October 2014 23: 33
    arguments for and against this material can be made, but with one thing the main message can be agreed - management errors and, as a result, inconsistency of the built-up system of reality. Healthy criticism and assessment are always positive, we must take into account mistakes and try to avoid them in the future
  41. Kassandra
    0
    25 October 2014 23: 34
    the throw-in was counted ... negative

    A. It was somehow strange that the fleet was raped by ekranoplanes - it’s considered that he didn’t have them ... and this is because, unlike the Tu-160, it carries mainly payload and not its own fuel, and can remain in a remote area for any length of time World Ocean
    they could fly Turkey over its mountains from black to Mediterranean, or Iran from the Caspian to the Indian Ocean.

    B. General Yakovlev made his supersonic SCVVP back in 1978, the American engineers for whom it seemed beyond the power of this technology then "bought" for 500 thousand dollars

    S. if the Kursk drowned himself, then why did the CIA director come to the maskwa, and in fact the boat was lifted by that side for free? and they were still sawing something at the bottom so that the man in the street could not see it above. bully

    the rest of Soviet boats, except for at least two more - a ram by a Norwegian spy and war drowning by the Americans at Hawaii, were drowning because, according to the theory of buoyancy, the specialists who design them are crooked, this is a banal wreck, like with welding buoys, etc., but already among those who are preparing them to go to sea, or shorter among those who do not burn in this compartment with a closed valve in this compartment.
    1. +1
      25 October 2014 23: 43
      Partners drowned Kursk, director resolved the current situation
    2. 0
      25 October 2014 23: 52
      [quote] [/ The Navy has been waiting for so long from the industry for boats that would be stealthily comparable to American ones ..........] this video discusses the design features of submarines
      1. 0
        26 October 2014 00: 16
        nasel bolee full video
  42. +5
    25 October 2014 23: 59
    A rare author .....! The leaders of the Union of rams, and the origin of any blue-legged. Navy commanders all spineless slime-meat no matter what
    capable cowardly hari. Who, shaking with horror, "amused" (I picked up the word!), Stalin and other leaders with deliberately moronic projects, and those like imbeciles rejoiced at the painted ships! I would go further! In a war like the Supreme on the globe fought, and then amused himself in the bathroom with toys-boats ?! So what happens ?! And Gorshkov and Golovko are generally satraps and fiends of hell! And the most intelligent and brilliant are his father and he is "burdened with knowledge from the Internet." Such vumniks are enraged, at first they will pour ten layers of shit over the entire Soviet period and the then officers (it turns out their father too) and then yell - I am a patriot! ... always for the truth! Live not by lies, etc.
    Sad, comrade officers ...
    1. 0
      26 October 2014 07: 42
      The leaders of the Union of rams, and the origin of any blue-legged. Navy commanders all spineless slime-meat no matter what
      capable cowardly hari.

      Yes, the current leadership is simply "torn away" from the people, the leadership is "put" on how the people live, everyone is concerned about their well-being ...
  43. +4
    26 October 2014 00: 04
    To the author minus. A lot of truth, mixed with the necessary, desired, amount of untruth will turn out what was ordered - a requiem to the Russian Navy.
    Dear, plus people, those who did not recognize the direction of the article, read it again, if necessary several times. And I assure the majority will see the essence of this "objective" article.
    1. 0
      26 October 2014 00: 13
      Directivity? She's absolutely true. The military-industrial complex must provide the army with what it needs. The rest of the things like "support the plant", "take this now for now, and we will modernize in the production process", "and it will do, but relatively cheap", "it is more profitable for us to continue the production of this sample, and not to debug the production of a new one" should go away.

      Very many representatives of the military-industrial complex believe that the main task of rearmament is to increase their income. Sincerely believe. But this is not so.
      1. +1
        26 October 2014 00: 39
        By upgrading the stone ax, the problems cannot be solved, the one who does not catch up, but creates a new unique one, wins
  44. +5
    26 October 2014 00: 08
    The author was carried away by the historical preamble, retrospective, and on this exhausted. But in vain. People must learn lessons from history (“history as such does not teach anything, it only punishes those who have not learned its lessons”). Therefore, the modern Navy should be built taking into account the accumulated experience - both its own and that of others. What kind of fleet Russia should have, what kind of ships we need to build - this is a big separate topic “B”, but the author said only “A”. Although he has great potential for expounding topic “B”, since his father, Nikolsky Vladislav Ivanovich, is a major naval scientist and an experienced system analysis specialist, he is a co-author of the unique work “The USSR Navy. 1945 - 1991 ”(edition of 1996). The last XII chapter of this publication discusses in detail, including issues of the optimal development of the Navy in accordance with the nature of modern wars and the appearance of promising Russian ships. The authors formulate the main tasks that the Russian Navy should solve and the purpose of the fleet in the form of the naval strategy of the Russian Federation. Based on this base, the co-authors set out in detail proposals for the configuration of the modern Navy with a concomitant analysis of the features of the theater of operations and the tasks to be solved by the Russian fleet based on experience. But, again, the topic is large, and not for presentation in the format of "commentary".
    1. 0
      26 October 2014 02: 43
      Do not hurt the crap, it hurts!
      This book is an enchantingly militarily illiterate military and engineering opus (just one example is the authors' nonsense with proposals to create a "Hurricane" level air defense system at the beginning of the 60x based on the Tu-128 air defense system), which is also seasoned with forgeries (I'm talking about cheating techniques " calculation of "expenses on the fleet of the Navy and the USA). In a situation when it was published, it was an attempt by the authors to “enter politics” (from there and the LDPR in the book)
  45. +5
    26 October 2014 01: 14
    But if this error arising from the communist ideology can be understood, how can we understand today's? Do we still not believe that the USSR and its heir to the Russian Federation is the birthplace of the best weapons in the world? Do the federal media broadcast on this and the Internet is not full?

    1. Communist ideology is not to blame for anything. And if it influenced the situation, it helped to build the world's best fleet relatively cheaply.
    2. The fact that there was no war, the Soviet fleet is also "to blame". It means that the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union S.G. was not so wrong. Gorshkov.
    3. The fact that Gorbachev put our ships to the wall, and then gave the order to cut first new and then older ships, only confirms the first two points.
    4. Unfortunately, I do not know the author's father personally. But I know the second author of the excellent reference book "Soviet Navy. 1945-1990", Captain 1st Rank V.P. Kuzin. So, when discussing such issues, there is no unity among military specialists. So much so that almost to a fight ... And openly discussing such issues is always false.
    5. And finally, emotional. Once a young employee of the 1st Research Institute made an open report on the comparison of the submarine fleets of the USSR and the USA. The author also talked about mistakes and fluxes ... There were also veteran submariners in the audience. After the author's text I ask them “were they afraid to go to sea on“ roaring cows ”? Did they have a chance to complete a combat mission if ordered? How often did the Americans pester them with continuous pursuit? Did they doubt their ships and the results of possible battles ?
    The veterans answered all questions with pride in their Great Past: they were not afraid, they would manage to execute the order, they tried to pester, but they left the pursuit, they did not doubt the ships.
    I believe the old people.
  46. 0
    26 October 2014 01: 21
    History teaches you nothing. After the era of battleships, the era of aircraft carriers entered the sea. Yamato and Musashi did not sink the formidable American battleships, but Helldivers and Avengers. And Bismarck was sentenced by antediluvian plywood torpedo biplane Swordfish. Now F / A-18 is the main striking force of US aircraft carriers, the combat radius is 1065 km, i.e. its combat radius without taking into account the launch range of its missiles is greater than the launch range of any of our anti-ship missiles. This means that the aircraft carrier using the AWACS aircraft detects our ship at a safe distance, picks up the F / A-18 link, which launch a missile strike on the ship without entering the ship’s air defense strike zone and calmly leave for a new batch of missiles. Our ship can only fight back from a missile attack trying to get closer to the launch distance of anti-ship missiles. That's why an aircraft carrier is the most formidable force at sea. And in the Union they understood this, because Varyag and nuclear Ulyanovsk were built at the Nikolaev shipyard. And so the United States has made every effort so that they are not completed.


    This is the American doctrine directed against popuas, and according to the mind, each aircraft carrier group is accompanied by our missile carrier, at the onset of "time H", releases a charge with a nuclear warhead.
    And that is all. The concert is over.
    1. Denis fj
      0
      26 October 2014 01: 51
      The article is interesting, but which side to look at. It’s like in that cartoon, you cannot show, have mercy. You can not talk about ships according to its technical specifications, and evaluate the combat effectiveness of the fleet by the number of units on paper. But lovers of this business have appeared very much lately.
  47. ready
    +4
    26 October 2014 01: 11
    Again, shapkozidatelnye moods began. I subscribe to 90% of this article. And I have the right to do so, because I myself was a participant in the described events, since from 1978 to 1986 he served as commander of the GURO, battalion commander, K-2 ON Bpk 61 pr. " Resolute "," Brave "(61m)," Komsomolets Ukrainy ". I know not by hearsay what the author is writing about and experienced all the absurdity of our military-industrial complex on his own skin. Shout now" Hurray, hurray! " - I consider it inappropriate and harmful.
  48. The comment was deleted.
  49. The comment was deleted.
  50. 0
    26 October 2014 02: 23
    The "thought" of Nikolsky Jr. is extremely millet and primitive - there were "woooooded navy commanders" (primarily KiNy + Khudyakov named here) and "stupid general secretaries and ministers."
    The realities, alas, were completely different.
    A number of criticized actions of Khrushchev in the Navy had quite serious and sound grounds.
    As for the "bad Ustinov" and the "good scientists", only one example (but among the "top ten") - KiNy in the mass of articles (even from the Soviet "Sea Collection") painted a TALE about the creation of aircraft carriers with us. A tub of cold water is contained in the book of the State Aviation Research Institute for Maritime Aviation - until the beginning of the 80 years, we did not have any clear theory and justification for building the AB, this was done in the first half of the 80 years by the work of many scientists.
    But when it was done (that is, there was a reasonable justification for what is needed and how much is needed) “for some reason” even Ustinov gave a “green light”.
    Those. the problem of the 70x in the aviation of the Navy was not the leadership, namely, the "scientists of the Navy" (despite the fact that the "Eagle" came from the second half of the 60x!), and only the involvement of serious aviation organizations at the end of the 70x allowed to get the result.
    “Navy science” in the person of the specialized research institutes “signed” in its impotence (and that science of the Navy which worked qualitatively in this direction in the 80x was much closer to practice (VMA)).
    However, this is not surprising, after the massive examples of the GLOBAL LITERACY of KiN in the armament of the ships of the Navy (and foreign Navy) in their "History ...", obvious errors in the concept of the ships of the 80x (the same 11540 that Nikolsky Sr. was proud of personally).
    Khudyakov, mentioned in the article, is one of the key culprits of a number of serious errors in the concept of our submarines and their shortcomings, and its "mathematical justification" is pseudoscientific nonsense not related to reality.
  51. Demon0n
    -1
    26 October 2014 02: 24
    It was a shame that the article was downvoted. Almost “everything” and “everyone” are relevant. Moreover, these “virtues” are characteristic not only of the fleet industry. I won’t talk about the obvious disadvantages, but there is also an opinion: at a certain moment everything did not fall apart, in particular, thanks to this. Now... it's "disturbing" (to put it mildly), just like at any other time.
    As for adopting someone else’s experience, I fundamentally disagree (other people’s experience should be taken into account, but not adopted, unless there is no other way out... which is a flawed path). If there is an understanding of the trends integrated into the concept(s), then a strategy is followed based on the expected problems. Everyone can predict the future to some extent. The point is only in the sufficiency of the initial data, their reliability (which, under normal conditions, follows from practice) and the logical apparatus (which fails many). This is exactly how directions and strategies are born where one “needs to learn” from. It's just blind following, not always! gives an understanding of the concept, and even more so of trends and problems (which always affects the final result and puts an end to independence: someone will always point, because there is “nothing to choose the direction to do”). About the “lack of other options”: it is possible (to put it mildly) that unreliable data (not verified... in this context we are talking, first of all, about logical errors that influenced the current result, as a result of which, “current data” need practical verification) can lead to an erroneous strategy, therefore “they talk about consistency in development (i.e. step by step)” (this is not an axiom, but a recommendation that is valid for cases where the trend is not obvious).
  52. anti-submarine
    +1
    26 October 2014 03: 13
    Admiral Nakhimov used to say, before teaching a sailor, be in his place yourself...maybe our would-be strategists need to remember the Admiral’s statement.
    And the article is a big minus! we need to BUILD a fleet, and not make lyrics!
  53. 0
    26 October 2014 03: 21
    Nemtsov's order.
  54. +1
    26 October 2014 04: 38
    There is no point in commenting further on this nonsense!
  55. 0
    26 October 2014 05: 36
    The Germans had their “Day” when the “five-minute” old battleships sank the “magnificent” new British in battle. The Russian fleet remembers only Tsushima from the battles of the 20th century. Let me emphasize - from battles.
    I do not question the heroism of our sailors.
    1. avt
      +2
      26 October 2014 15: 50
      Quote: tanit
      The Germans had their “Day” when the “five-minute” old battleships sank the “magnificent” new British in battle.

      what When and where was this??????? That's when a squadron of German raiders near the Falklands was crushed by English battle cruisers - I know, but vice versa...
  56. 0
    26 October 2014 06: 40
    There are no conclusions! And in which team there are no squabbles? The future of the fleet is seen in satellite target designation (or airborne) and a large number of platforms - carriers of large batches of Zumvolt-type missiles.
    1. Kassandra
      0
      28 October 2014 19: 38
      but he is not a carrier... Yes
      This is an EM gunboat for shelling the coast, actually.
  57. +1
    26 October 2014 06: 47
    The article smacks of “decadence” and “all-pro-racialism” and this is written by a person who, in his words, is very knowledgeable. Yes, there are enough difficulties in our Navy, but not so much as to write so derogatory about it and about the country that created it. There were worse times, it would not hurt the author to read V. Pikul’s “Dead End” and “From the Dead End”, and lament someone - then blaming is the last thing! And what the author offers is nothing. And it seems that the whole point of the article is to discredit what was and what is!
    1. 0
      26 October 2014 12: 06
      Nikolay, I support, especially in Pikul’s part, I can’t even imagine how, under the Soviet regime, he was allowed to publish “From the Dead End”, it’s useful for everyone to read, everyone without exception
  58. Karbyshevets
    0
    26 October 2014 08: 38
    The article is ambiguous. the article and the author of the article do not need to be characterized either with a “+” or “-” sign, to refute or confirm the veracity of the conclusions in this article. This article is an element of the overall picture, with the “colors” of a particular person. Conclusions based on the above: everything depends on the “steering wheel”, if at the head there is a person who “feels for his cause”, like Margelov for the Airborne Forces, then the result will be obvious, and the groundwork will be for years to come, if you just hold a position like that, like Serdyukov, Ursula von der Leyen, then comments are unnecessary...
  59. +1
    26 October 2014 08: 46
    Quote: mina
    A number of criticized actions of Khrushchev in the Navy had quite serious and sound grounds.

    I do not agree.
    If you think like this, then every criminal has a couple of good deeds in his past, and every fool has a couple of smart thoughts.
    Khrushchev destroyed so many good ships, even brand new ones...
    Sent so many Heroes from the army and navy to retirement...
    He said so many gags...
    But in reality, I couldn’t even reason with the renegade would-be artists.
    Those were “modern art” for him, and Khrushchev sent bulldozers to help them.
    In modern terms, it turned out to be an installation. This is how the gaps went down in history.
    But it was necessary, for business, to walk through this “exhibition”, endure it, and then say something like the following: -You promised an exhibition of artists, where is it? And quietly leave, as if not noticing anyone.
    The next day all the engineers and workers would be laughing at the underground...
  60. +2
    26 October 2014 13: 25
    Indeed, Ustinov gifted the Navy with such “miracles” of technology as an ekranoplan, a vertical take-off and landing aircraft (VTOL)
    I disagree with the author of the article on the issue of ekranoplanes and vertical take-off aircraft... I’ll start with ekranoplanes... the author says that these devices are dependent on the weather and are also limited in maneuver... and then let’s remember what the first ones were like samples of helicopters, airplanes, etc... The USSR was the first to even touch upon the topic of ekranoplanes and was a leader in this... I am sure that work on these machines would eliminate a lot of problems and shortcomings in the future and would give the fleet effective systems that are still available today no one has... these machines are capable of accelerating up to 500 km per hour! and endowed with natural stealth would be very useful to Russia.. (let’s imagine, for example, on such an ekranoplan, let’s say a caliber system with new missiles firing at 2,5 thousand km, or a system granite...) Any technology requires improvement and modifications, and judging ekranoplanes as narrow-mindedly as the author does is criminal.. As for aircraft with vertical take-off, the author’s opinion is also very controversial for the same reasons as stated above..
  61. 0
    26 October 2014 14: 44
    Quote: abdrah
    Quote: ABV
    kapets! as a rally, not in the VO forum.

    That at the rally it is so accurate - the time of posting the article is 18:55, the time of posting "hurray comments" - 18:56. It is impossible to read and comprehend a rather lengthy article in a minute, even obliquely. Or maybe he (Rum.Rum.) Is a genius? Although I remember such "geniuses" have already appeared here that they managed to throw slogans along with articles, and all of such rustic-patriotic content.
    I support ABV, I am also not against patriotism, but against hurray-patriots and horse racing for the sake of "ratings".

    The relationship between the Article and some Comments is just nonsense. This is exactly what the author of the article emphasizes in the first part. To be in the flow, to be your own, and it doesn’t even matter what direction it is. Well, it’s lucky that within the framework of patriotism, but in essence - zero. And there are hundreds of them “in the flow”, making important decisions at different levels.
  62. 0
    26 October 2014 15: 03
    The worst thing is to wait and catch up.
    Wait until the leadership of the country and the Navy are ripe for making some new conceptual decisions in the field of construction and use of the Russian fleet and Russian industry will be able to master what is planned in the near and not very distant future, and it is unlikely that it will be possible to catch up with those whom it is unlikely to catch up with meaning. Therefore, the most correct thing, in my unenlightened opinion, would be the development and construction of ships that provide the ability to conduct effective military operations of the fleet within the territorial waters of Russia, i.e. coastal zone as well as inland waters, as well as the further development of the strategic submarine fleet. It is high time to realize that large surface ships are unlikely to be able to conduct combat operations in the World Ocean for a long time without effective air cover by fighters and anti-aircraft aircraft based on aircraft carriers, of which there are practically none and which are unlikely to appear in the foreseeable future. And if they do appear, it will be in numbers hardly comparable to the number of aircraft carriers the “sworn friends” have.
    In addition, in addition to aircraft carriers, it is necessary to have aircraft for various purposes (AWACS, ASW, etc.) capable of being based on these aircraft carriers. And with these aircraft the question is even more vague than with aircraft carriers. Those. and with air cover for naval formations far from the Motherland, things are not going well yet, and with target designation for their heavy missile weapons, things are not yet at the proper level.
    There also seems to be no need to protect sea routes for supplying oil and gas away from its territory, Russia (as opposed to China, the USA, Australia and other various Swedes), because There is nowhere to put your oil and gas, and Russia also has no need to help, as the USSR once helped, someone’s “national liberation movements,” which most often turn out to be simple gangster formations. I would have had enough strength to help myself.
    But underwater “strategists”, coupled with the ground and air components of Russia’s strategic nuclear forces, are just what the doctor ordered. Moreover, the backlog against them is very serious.
    Just take proper care of the system for basing and repairing these boats, as well as the people providing their military service and their families, and everything will be top-notch. Well, it would be good to bring the coefficient of operational tension (COS) of these boats to the level of OTS of similar minke whale boats, so that the boats would sail more and not lie in bases.
    1. Kassandra
      0
      28 October 2014 20: 25
      yeah, yes, well, well... The submarine is generally defenseless against anti-submarine aircraft.

      in the number of aircraft carriers to cover the deployment of nuclear submarines and other things, it is not at all necessary to compare with the Americans, but there should be at least 2-3
  63. -1
    26 October 2014 17: 23
    Another Couch Warrior!
    1. 0
      27 October 2014 08: 14
      So who will you go with?... Besides, at my age, this is the most convenient place for solving strategic problems. Well, I would like to hear from you at least some of your thoughts on this topic, and not slogans and cliches. Although.. who is capable of what. Sometimes it seems that the mass of participants in this forum are earning their advantages and “titles” from them. Aren’t you going to be one of them?
  64. -2
    26 October 2014 20: 43
    The article is brilliant - why?
    Because carelessness in the Russian Federation continues.
    Why did the Maces “fall”, why are there now doubts about whether to build the “Ash” project en masse or not.
    Of course, riveting more boats and ruining people while receiving New Year bonuses is much better?
    The topic is covered perfectly.
    The comments are mostly funny.
    Because the majority wants to have a foreign-assembled car, household appliances - also foreign-assembled... should I continue?
    That's why the car is right.
    1. Kassandra
      0
      28 October 2014 21: 14
      I don’t know, I don’t know - Sukhi and MiGs somehow don’t fall...
      Most of the comments with comments to the author are right on point.
  65. 0
    26 October 2014 22: 08
    Quote: Hitrovan07

    The topic is covered perfectly.
    The comments are mostly funny.

    To be very precise - the topic is extremely closed.
    And disclosing a topic on an open Internet forum is a betrayal of national interests and transferring military secrets to the enemy.
    The comments are almost all with intrusions between the letters.
    What different vision we all have!
  66. 0
    27 October 2014 15: 41
    good informative article.

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