Battleships like "Sevastopol". Success or failure? Part of 3

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From the source to the source goes opinion: "Sevastopol differed disgusting seaworthiness and were decidedly unfit to act on the open sea."

On the one hand, arguing purely theoretically, it is difficult to disagree with such a statement. Indeed, the height of the freeboard (according to the project of 6 meters) in the nose did not exceed the 5,4-5,7 meter, and that was not much. In addition, the nasal contours of the hull were too sharp (to obtain a high speed) and did not, in theory, provide good convergence to the wave. And this led to the fact that the first tower was flooded with water.

But what is the matter - the sources write about this more than streamlined. “Even in the conditions of the Gulf of Finland, with little excitement for such large ships, their bow tip dug into the water up to the first tower ...”

So try to guess - "insignificant for such large ships" - how much is this?

It turns out interesting - they talk a lot about low seaworthiness, but there is no specifics about how bad it was. The most important question is: at what point of excitement on the Beaufort scale would the Sevastopol type battleships be able to fight anymore? (Note: Generally speaking, the Beaufort scale regulates not the excitement, but the force of the wind, but we will not go into such jungle, and besides, no matter what, there is a definite relationship between the force of the wind and the excitement in the open sea.)

I could not find the answer to this question. Well, not to take seriously the information that “on a small wave for such a large ship, the optics of its tower spattered”! And that's why.

Firstly, the optics in the tower is an important thing, but in combat the main method of using guns was and remains centralized control of artillery fire, in which the tower optics are secondary. And if the centralized control is broken, and the towers are given the command to fight on their own, then, most likely, the ship itself is hardly capable of delivering a full turn, at which its optics will overwhelm.

Secondly, we take the German battleship Derflinger. In the nose, the height of its freeboard exceeds 7 meters, which is significantly more than that of the Russian battleship, but its feed rose only 4,2 meters above sea level. And then his poop, you say, he's not going astern to go into battle? This is definitely the case. However, I came across data that at the full speed of its feed, inclusive of the barbet of the aft tower, went under water. Hard to believe, right? But in the Muzhenikov book, Germany's Line Cruisers, there is a charming photograph of a battle cruiser at full speed.



At the same time, I have never heard that Derflinger had any problems with the use of tools related to seaworthiness.

Finally, the third. Already after World War I and on the eve of World War II, the British very imprudently demanded that 356-mm guns of the latest King George V type battleships be fired right along the course. Therefore, the nose of the battleship did not receive a forecastle or lift, which adversely affected the ship’s seaworthiness. In the famous battle against the German battleship "Bismarck", the English commanders of the nose tower "Prince of Wells" had to fight while knee-deep in the water - it was overwhelming right through the embrasures of the towers. I fully admit that the optics at the same time was splashing too. But the British fought, and fell, and inflicted damage to the enemy, although the British battleship, which did not complete the full course of combat training in the experience of its crew, was much inferior to the fully trained Bismarck.

As a sample of the useless seaworthiness of our battleships, the unfortunate case is usually brought about when the battleship “Paris Commune” during the transition from the Baltic to the Black Sea landed in the Bay of Biscay in a violent storm that caused the most sensitive damage to our Dreadnought. And some even undertake to assert that there was no storm at all, so, self-indulgence is one, citing the fact that the French maritime meteorological service recorded on the same days a wind of 7-8 points and a wave of the sea 6 points.

I'll start with the storm. It must be said that the Bay of Biscay is generally famous for its unpredictability: it seems that a storm is raging far, far away, on the coast is clear, but in the bay there is a multimeter swell. This is often the case if a storm is coming from the Atlantic to Europe - the coast of France is still quiet, but the Atlantic is seething, preparing to unleash its fury on the coast of Britain, and then it will get to France. So even if the same Brest has no storm, this does not mean that the weather in the Bay of Biscay is excellent.

And during the release of the "Paris Commune" in the Atlantic and off the coast of England, a violent storm raged that destroyed the 35 of various merchant and fishing vessels, and later it reached France.

Our battleship went into the sea on December 7, was forced to return back on December 10. During this time:

- December 7 cargo ship Chieri (Italy) sank in the Bay of Biscay, 80 miles (150 km) from the coast of France (approximately 47 ° XNNXX ° W). Killed 6 from crew member 35. The rest were rescued by the trawler Gascoyne (France);
- cargo ship “Helene” (Denmark) was abandoned by rescuers in the Bay of Biscay after an unsuccessful towing attempt. It was thrown onto the French coast and destroyed by the waves, his entire crew was killed;
- December 8 sailing ship "Notre Dame de Bonne Nouvelle" (France) sank in the Bay of Biscay. His crew was saved.

The only photo of our dreadnought on that trip apparently hints that the excitement was prejudicial.

Battleships like "Sevastopol". Success or failure? Part of 3


Moreover, the photograph captured the ship clearly not in the midst of the violence of the elements - when a hurricane came along that accompanied the cruiser from which this photo was taken, he himself was damaged, and, obviously, at such a time, he would not have taken a photo shoot from him. And therefore there are no prerequisites to challenge the testimony of Soviet sailors.

But let's move on to the damage of the Russian dreadnought. In fact, it was not his design that was to blame for the damage that a huge ship received, but the technical improvement made to this structure under Soviet rule. In the USSR, the battleship received a nose fix, designed to reduce flooding the bow of the ship. She looked more like a scoop, dressed right on the deck.



In the Baltic, such a construction was completely justified. The waves of the Baltic are short and not too high - the nose of the battleship cut the wave, and the “scoop” smashed and threw up the water that was thrown up from the impact on the body of the battleship. But in the Bay of Biscay, where the waves are much longer, the battleship, descending from such a wave, stuck its nose into the sea, and ... the “scoop” now worked like a real scoop, capturing many tens of tons of sea water, which simply did not have time to leave the deck. Naturally, under such a load, the hull structures began to deform. Happiness that the whipping was almost torn off by the waves, but the battleship was already damaged and had to return for repair ... which was that the French workers simply cut off the remnants of the nasal fixture, after which the Paris Commune continued on its way without any problems. It turns out that if it were not for this unfortunate "modification", then the battleship would most likely have passed through the storm without any serious damage.

Subsequently, on all battleships of this type, a new nasal fixture was installed, but of a completely different design - like a small forecastle, covered with a top deck, so that the new design could not draw water in any way.



I do not dare to assert in any way that Sevastopoli were inborn peniters of the oceans, who would not care about the worst Pacific typhoon. But to what extent their unimportant seaworthiness prevented them from conducting artillery combat and whether they interfered at all, the question remains open. As far as I understand, the ships are fighting with the excitement of 3-4 points, well, the maximum 5 points, if that is the case and there are no other options (just as Togo did not have them, it will storm or not, and you can't let the Russians go to Vladivostok) . But under normal circumstances in 5, and even more so in 6 points, any admiral would prefer not to look for a fight, but to stand in the base and wait for good weather. Therefore, the question boils down to how stable the artillery platform was Sevastopol-type battleships with a wave of 4-5 points. Personally, I assume that with such excitement our battleships, if they went against the wave, they would probably have some problems with shooting directly in the nose, but I strongly doubt that the excitement could prevent them from fighting on parallel courses, i.e. the tower is deployed on board and is located sideways to the wave. It is highly doubtful that the German battleships on 5 points would stand up to the wave - such a roll would hardly have been able to demonstrate the wonders of accuracy. Therefore, I assume that our dreadnoughts' seaworthiness would be enough for a fight with the German dreadnoughts in the Baltic, but I can’t prove it strictly.

If we are talking about the driving characteristics of the ship, then it should be mentioned about its speed. Usually the speed in the 23 node is put to our ships in dignity, since the speed in the 21 node was standard for the battleships of those times. Our ships were in speed in the interval between the battleships and battlecruisers of other world powers.

Of course, it’s nice to have a speed advantage, but it should be understood that the difference in the 2 node did not allow the Russian dreadnoughts to play the role of a “high-speed avant-garde” and did not give them a particular advantage in battle. The British thought the difference in 10 speed was not significant, and I tend to agree with them. When the British decided to create a “fast wing” with their columns of 21-nodal battleships, they created powerful superdownnoughts like “Queen Elizabeth” designed for 25-nodal speed. The difference in the 4 of the node, perhaps, would allow these ships to cover the head of the enemy column, associated with the battle with the "twenty-one" battleships of the British line ... Anything can happen. Apart from the famous “Loop of Togo”, the Japanese in Tsushima constantly put Russian ships at a disadvantage, but the Japanese fleet had at least one and a half times the advantage in squadron speed. And then there is only 20%. In Russian ships and even less - 10%. For example, by engaging in combat at full speed and at a distance, say, 80 KB, while on the beam of the “König”, our battleship could go for half an hour to 10 KBT ahead. How much of this sense? In my opinion, in combat, the extra 2 of the speed node meant not too much for the Russian dreadnoughts and did not give them any decisive, or even any appreciable advantage. But it is in battle.

The fact is that even when designing battleships of the Sevastopol type, it was clear that the German fleet, if you wish it, will dominate the Baltic, and the construction of the first four Russian dreadnoughts cannot change anything - Hochzeeflot’s superiority in the number of ships lines. Therefore, the Russian battleships, with any access to the sea, would risk meeting with the forces of the enemy that were deliberately superior.

Perhaps, two knots of superiority in speed did not give the battleships of the “Sevastopol” type significant advantages in battle, but they allowed Russian ships to engage in battle at their own discretion. Our dreadnoughts were not suitable for the role of a “high-speed avant-garde”, but even if cruisers and destroyers miss the enemy, and suddenly, at the limit of visibility, signalmen will see the numerous silhouettes of German squadrons - the speed advantage will allow you to quickly break contact before the ships receive any significant damage. Taking into account the unimportant Baltic weather, finding an enemy, say, at 80 kbt, you can prevent it from breaking away, imposing a fight and breaking it, if it is weak, and if it is too strong, quickly go out of sight. Thus, in the specific situation of the Baltic Sea, an additional two speed knots for our battleships should be considered a very significant tactical advantage.

It is often written that “Sevastopoli” developed the 23 node with great difficulty, up to the modernization already in Soviet times (after which they went along the 24 node). This is a completely fair statement. But you need to understand that the battleships of other countries, having developed an 21 node on tests, usually gave a slightly lower speed in daily operation, which is a common practice for most ships. True, it happened and vice versa - German battleships sometimes developed on the acceptance tests much more than what they were supposed to. The same “Kaiser”, for example, instead of the node put to it by the 21 project, developed the 22,4, although I could not maintain such a speed in the future.

So the twenty-node speed for domestic dreadnoughts was not at all superfluous and can in no way be considered a project error. One can only regret that for the Black Sea dreadnoughts the speed was reduced from 23 to the 21 node. Taking into account the actual state of the boilers and “Gebena” machines, it is quite possible to assume that he would not leave the 23-node battleship.

Battleships of the "Sevastopol" type had an extremely short range.

But with this, alas, no arguing. No matter how sad, but it really is.

Russian dreadnoughts were not good in terms of seaworthiness and range. But if we ordered dreadnoughts in England ...

One of the main problems associated with seaworthiness was the overload of our ships, the main reason being that the chassis (turbines and boilers) turned out to be heavier than the project by 560 tons. Well, the problem with the stroke range arose because the boilers turned out to be much more voracious than expected. Who is to blame for it? Perhaps the English firm "John Brown", with which 14 January 1909, the joint board of the Baltic and Admiralty plants concluded an agreement on the technical management of the design, construction and testing of steam turbines and boilers for the first four Russian battleships in the sea?

Battleships like "Sevastopol" turned out to be extremely expensive and ravaged the country.

I must say that our battleships, of course, were a very expensive pleasure. And moreover, sadly aware of this, but the construction of warships in Russia very often turned out to be more expensive than the leading world powers, such as England and Germany. However, contrary to popular belief, the difference in the cost of ships was not at all times.

For example, the German battleship "König Albert" cost German taxpayers in 45.761 thousand gold marks (23.880.500 rubles in gold). Russian "Sevastopol" - in 29.400.000 rub.

The extreme high cost of domestic dreadnought, apparently, came from some confusion about how much the Russian battleship cost. The fact is that two costs of battleships of the Sevastopol type, 29,4 and 36,8 million rubles, appear in the press. But in this matter it should be borne in mind the particular pricing of the Russian fleet.

The fact is that 29 million is the price of the ship itself, and it is this that must be compared with the prices of foreign dreadnoughts. And 36,8 million is the cost of the battleship according to the construction program, which, in addition to the cost of the ship itself, includes the price of half the guns supplied additionally (a reserve in case the battle fails) and double ammunition, as well as, perhaps, something else something I don't know. Therefore, it is incorrect to compare the 23,8 million of the German Dreadnought and the 37 Russian.

However, the cost of the dreadnoughts is impressive. Maybe their construction really brought the country to the handle? It will be interesting to consider whether it would be possible to overwhelm our army with rifles / guns / shells, refusing to create armored leviathans?

The estimated cost of four battleships of the “Sevastopol” type was calculated in the total amount of 147 500 000,00 rubles. (together with the combat reserves, which I have indicated above). According to the GAU program (Chief Artillery Directorate), the expansion and modernization of the weapons factory in Tula and the construction of a new arms factory in Yekaterinoslav (production of rifles), followed by the transfer of the Sestroretsk rifle factory there, should have cost the 65 721 930,00 treasury in rubles . During World War I, 2 461 000 rifles were delivered to Russia, including 635 000 from Japan, 641 000 from France, 400 000 from Italy, England 128 000 from the USA, and 657 000 from the USA.

In 1915, the cost of the Mosin rifle was 35,00 rubles, which means that the total cost of rifles, if they were released in Russia and not bought abroad, would be 2 461 000 x 35,00 = 86 135 000,00 rubles.

Thus, 2 461 000 three-line rifles, along with factories for their production, would cost the treasury 151 856 930,00 rub. (65 721 930,00 rub. + 86 135 000,00 rub.), Which is already a little more than the Baltic dreadnought construction program.

Suppose we do not wish to build a mighty fleet capable of smashing the enemy into the sea. But we still need to defend our shores. Consequently, in the absence of battleships, we will have to build sea fortresses - but what will it cost us?

In the Baltic, the Russian fleet had Kronstadt as its base, but it was already too small for modern steel giants, and the famous Helsingfors was considered not very promising. The fleet was supposed to be based in Revel, and in order to adequately protect the future main base of the fleet and block the enemy’s entrance to the Gulf of Finland, they decided to build a powerful coastal defense - Peter the Great's fortress. The total value of the fortress was estimated at 92,4 million rubles. Moreover, this amount was not outstanding. For example, it was planned to allocate about 100 million rubles for the construction of a first-class fortress in Vladivostok. At that time, it was assumed that 16 356-mm guns, 8 305-mm 16 279-mm howitzers, 46 six-inch guns, 12 120-mm guns and 66-mm guns would be installed in the fortress.

If, say, to build the defense of the Gulf of Finland and Moonsund solely on the basis of coastal artillery, then at least 3 fortifications will be needed - Kronstadt, Revel-Porkalaud and, in fact, Moonsund. The cost of this solution will be 276 mln. Rub. (7 dreadnoughts commissioned by the Russian Empire cost 178 million rubles.) But you need to understand that such protection will not be able to block the enemy squadrons from entering Riga or the Gulf of Finland, and the Moonzund Islands themselves will remain very vulnerable - what is 164? guns on the whole archipelago?

The situation on the Black Sea is even more interesting. As is known, the Turks had Napoleonic plans to put into operation of their fleet three dreadnoughts.

If we tried to resist this not with the construction of the fleet, but with the construction of sea fortresses, only one attempt to cover the cities that suffered during the “Sevastopol wake” - Sevastopol, Odessa, Feodosia and Novorossiysk would cost much more than the construction of dreadnoughts. Even if we assume that to cover each of the cities, only a third of the cost of Peter the Great's fortress is needed (about 123 million rubles in total), then this is much more than the cost of the three Black Sea Russian Dreadnoughts (29,8 million rubles per piece or 89 million rub!) But, having built a fortress, we still could not feel safe: who would have prevented the same Turks from landing troops outside the zone of action of the fortress artillery and attacking the city from the land direction? In addition, one should never forget the excellent actions of the Russian Black Sea Fleet during the First World War. Our sailors stopped the sea communications of the Turks, forcing them to carry supplies to the troops by land, which was long and dreary, while they themselves helped the army by sea. The brilliant assistance to the troops of the seaside flank is very interesting and very detailed for the Patients in the book The Tragedy of Mistakes. It was the Black Sea Fleet, perhaps the only of all the fleets of the First World War, that landed successful landings, greatly helping the army to smash the enemy.

But all this would be decidedly impossible if the Turks had dreadnoughts, and we had fortresses. That the Turks would interrupt our communications, bombarded our coastal flanks, landed landings to the rear of our troops ... But we would pay for it much more expensive than for the Dreadnoughts!

Of course, no one cancels the need for coastal artillery - even with the most powerful fleet available, you still need to cover key points of the coast. But an attempt to ensure the security of a power from the sea, not with a sword (fleet), but with a shield (coastal defense) is obviously unprofitable financially and does not provide even a tenth of the opportunities that the presence of the fleet provides.

And, finally, the last myth - and, perhaps, the most unpleasant of all.

The project of the Baltic Plant (which later became a project of Sevastopol type battleships) was far from the best one presented for the competition, but was chosen because the commission chairman Academician Krylov was related to the author of the project Bubnov. That helped a relative, so that the plant received a chic order.

Even comment is disgusting. The point is not even that the Baltic plant was actually state-owned, i.e. He was in state ownership and therefore Bubnov personally did not expect any special gesheft from the “smart order”. The fact is that in the Baltic the Russian Empire had exactly four stocks, on which it was possible to build battleships, and two of them were located right at the Baltic Shipyard. At the same time building new battleships was originally intended in series of four ships. And therefore it doesn’t matter who developed the project and where. If the project were Russian, Italian, French, or even Eskimo, two battleships would be built at the Baltic Shipyard, simply because there was no place to build them anymore. So the plant received its order anyway.

This concludes the articles about our first dreadnoughts, but before putting an end, let me comment on two very common points of view on Sevastopol battleships with which I had the pleasure to read online.



Dreadnoughts - this, of course, not bad, but it would be better to build more cruisers and destroyers instead.

Theoretically, such an option is possible - in the end, a Svetlana type cruiser cost about 8,6 million rubles, and a Novik type destroyer - 1,9-2,1 million rubles. So, at the same cost, instead of one dreadnought one could build 3 light cruisers or pieces of 14 destroyers. True, the question arises about the stocks - how much money do not give, and one battleship in three cruising can not be redone. But these are, perhaps, details - in the end, the light cruisers could be ordered from the same England, there would be a desire. And, undoubtedly, their active use on the Baltic communications of the Kaiser added to the Germans a pretty headache.

But here the key words are “active use”. After all, for example, the Russian Baltic Fleet had many less cruisers and destroyers than it could have been, instead of the dreadnoughts of Svetlana and Noviki. But after all, even those light forces that were at our disposal, we used far from 100%! And what would have changed a few more cruisers? I'm afraid of nothing. If we had built a bunch of cruisers and destroyers and began to actively use them ... then yes. But then another question arises. And if we leave everything as it is, we will not build squadrons of cruisers and destroyers, but will we actively use the battleships? What would be then?

I urge dear readers to avoid one logical mistake, which no-no, yes, I notice on the Internet. It is impossible to compare the dreadnoughts standing in the harbor with the destroyers cruising on enemy communications and say that destroyers are more effective. It is necessary to compare the effect of the active actions of the battleships and the active actions of the destroyers, and then it was already to draw conclusions.

The question posed so smoothly flows into another plane: which is more effective - the active use of the multitude of light forces of the fleet, or the active use of smaller forces but supported by battleships? And what is the optimal ratio of battleships and light forces within the limits of the funds that were actually released for the construction of the Russian fleet?

These are very interesting, worthy of separate research questions, but examining them, we will give an excessive lurch to the field of alternative storiesWhat I would not like to do in this article. I will note one thing: with all the positive effect that several dozen light ships could have on enemy communications, cruisers and destroyers are unable to withstand the German Dreadnoughts. Neither destroyers nor cruisers are physically able to defend mine-artillery positions, the basis of our defense of the Gulf of Finland and Moonzund, with any degree of success. And to neutralize the old Russian battleships, the Germans needed to send a couple of their battleships of the first series, supporting them just in case with several Wittelsbachs. Therefore, it is absolutely impossible to completely abandon the dreadnoughts, but you can argue about the necessary number of them oh how long ...

Why build dreadnoughts if we still could not give the “last and decisive” battle to Hochzeeflotte? Wouldn’t it be better to limit the defense of the Gulf of Finland and Moonsund and build many coastal defense battleships?

My personal opinion is by no means better. Below I will try to give a detailed rationale for this thesis. In my opinion, the battleship of coastal defense was and remains a palliative, capable of solving only two tasks - the defense of the coast from the sea and the support of the coastal flank of the army. And he solves the first task out of his hands badly.

Talking about battleships of a very small displacement, like Russian “Ushakovs” or later Finnish “Ilmarinens”, probably is not worth it - such ships can fight with dreadnought only before the first hit of an enemy shell, while their own 254-mm guns are unlikely whether they can seriously scratch the battleship. The very successful activities of the Finnish armored personnel carriers during World War II are not related to the fact that coastal defense battleships can protect their own coast, but because no one attacked Finland from the sea in that war. The Finns did not defend their shores, they used the battleships as big gunboats, and as such, of course, their ships, armed with long-range guns, but capable of hiding in the skerries, showed themselves well. But this does not make the Finnish battleships ships capable of restraining enemy battleships in a mine-artillery position.

Similarly, it probably does not make sense to consider the huge battleships of predrednouath, the “last of the Mohicans” of the era of squadron battleships, which were built before the countries seized the predatory boom. Yes, these mastodons could easily “translate” with the dreadnoughts of the first series, while having even some chances of winning - but the price ... “Andrew the First-Called” and “The Emperor Paul I” cost the treasury more than 23 million rubles each! And if against the English "Dreadnought" the last Russian battleships still had some chances in a one-on-one battle, then there were no such opponents against a battleship like "Sevastopol". Given that the battleship Sevastopol is only 26% more expensive.

Of course, it can be argued that such a cost of the “Andrew the First-Called” is a consequence of its long construction and many alterations that the ship underwent on the slipway, and this will certainly be true to some extent. But if we look at the English ships, we will see about the same thing. Thus, to build large-tonnage coastal mastodons, which are similar in size and cost, but not similar in capabilities with the battleship, there is no meaning.

If we try to imagine a coastal defense battleship in the displacement of a classic squadron battleship of the beginning of the century, i.e. 12-15 thousand tons, then ... Anyway, but there is no way to make a small artillery ship stronger, or at least equal to a large one (except for tactical nuclear weapons, of course). Two battleships of the Borodino type cost approximately the dreadnought of the Sevastopol type (the cost of the battleship of the Borodino type ranged from 13,4 to 14,5 million rubles), but they cannot withstand it in battle. The protection of the battleships is weaker, the artillery power is obviously inferior to the dreadnought both in the number of guns of the main caliber and in the power of the guns, but, much worse, it loses many times in such important criteria as controllability. The organization of fire from one ship 10 times easier than with several. At the same time, the combat stability of a large ship is usually higher than that of two ships of a total equal displacement.

Therefore, building a fleet at the rate of two battleships on one enemy battleship (which most likely will not be enough), we will spend on the fleet about the same money as on the fleet of dreadnoughts, equal to the enemy fleet. But having created dreadnoughts, we will wield a sword capable of adequately representing our interests in the world's oceans, and by building battleships we will get just a shield, suitable only for the defense of the Gulf of Finland and Moonzund.

The battleship can participate in active marine operations, even if the enemy has superior strength. The battleship can support the raider actions of its own light forces, can strike at distant enemy shores, can try to lure part of the enemy fleet and try to smash it in battle (oh, if not for the cowardice of Ingenol, who turned back when the only squadron of Grand Fleet went straight to steel jaws of the High Sea Fleet!) The coastal defense battleship does not know how to do this. Accordingly, like any palliative, coastal defense battleships will cost as much, or even more, but will be less functional than dreadnoughts.

There is, however, one “but” in all these arguments. In one single place, in Moonsund, where our dreadnoughts did not have to go because of shallow depths, a strong, but small-sized battleship found a certain meaning. Such a ship could defend mine positions, like “Glory”, could operate in the Gulf of Riga, hit the enemy’s flank, if it gets to those shores ... It seems so, and not so much.

Firstly, it is worth bearing in mind that when the Germans seriously wanted to enter Riga, neither minefields, nor Glory could hold them, although they interfered fairly. So it was in 1915, when the Germans first retreated because of the fogs, but, waiting for good weather, they were able to drive off the Glory, rake our mine positions and enter the bay with light forces. So it was in 1917, when “Glory” died. And, sadly enough, we lost a large warship, but could not inflict equivalent damage to the enemy. No one detracts from the courage of the officers of “Glory” who led the “ship committees” under the fire of the many-times superior enemy and those sailors who honestly fulfilled their duty — our eternal gratitude and kind memory to the soldiers of Russia! But with the existing material part, our sailors "could only show that they know how to die with dignity."

And secondly, when the base was chosen for the Baltic Fleet, the Moonsund Archipelago was considered as one of the main contenders. For this, it was necessary not so much - to carry out dredging so that the newest dreadnoughts could go in, nothing was impossible in it. And although in the end they stopped at Revel, they nevertheless assumed, in the future, to carry out these dredging works, ensuring the entrance of the Dreadnoughts to Moonsund. One can only regret that this was not done before the First World War.

Well, it's time to take stock. In my opinion, “Sevastopol” type battleships can rightly be considered a success of domestic industry and design ideas. They did not become ideal ships, but took a worthy place in the ranks of foreign peers. In some ways, our ships were worse, but in some ways they were better than their foreign counterparts, but in general they were least "Equal among equals". Despite a number of shortcomings, the battleships of the “Sevastopol” type could very well with their steel chest protect the sea borders of the Fatherland.

And as far as I could substantiate this my opinion, judge you, dear readers.

Thank you for attention!

The list of used literature:
I.F. Tsvetkov, "Sevastopol type battleships".

A.V. Skvortsov, "Sevastopol type battleships".
A. Vasiliev, "The first battleships of the red fleet".
V.Yu. Gribovsky, "squadron battleships of the" Tsarevich "and" Borodino "types.
V.B. Mujenikov, "German battle cruisers".
VB Men, "The battlecruisers of England".
V.B. The men, the "Kaiser" and "Konig" battleships.
L.G. Goncharov, "Course naval tactics. Artillery and armor."
S.E. Vinogradov, "The Last Giants of the Russian Imperial Navy".
L.A. Kuznetsov, "Nasal affair battleship" Paris Commune ".
L.I. Amirkhanov, "Sea Fortress of Emperor Peter the Great".
V.P. Rimsky-Korsakov, "Managing Artillery Fire".
"Description of the instrumentation management artil. Fire sample 1910 of the year."
B.V. Kozlov, "Linear ships like" Orion ".
S.I. Titushkin, "Bayern" battleships.
A.V. Mandel, V.V. Skoptsov, "Battleships of the United States of America".
A.A. Belov, "Armadillos of Japan".
V. Kofman, "King George V type liners"
K.P. Puzyrevsky, "Combat damage and death of ships in the battle of Jutland".


Taking this opportunity, I express my deep gratitude to my colleague "countryman" from the alternative history website for the brilliant research on the effectiveness of the Russian and Japanese artillerymen firing in the Russian-Japanese war (series of articles "On the Accuracy of Shooting the Russian-Japanese War" and "On the Budget Ratio" of the naval department and the Ministry of War of the Russian Empire at the beginning of the twentieth century ", which I copied without a twinge of conscience. The articles of this outstanding author can be found in his blog: http://alternathistory.org.ua/user/zemlyak.
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  1. Crang
    +4
    20 October 2014 09: 35
    Personally, I know that during the joint campaign of the battleship "Marat" and the cruiser "Profintern" when the detachment got into a strong storm, the campaign had to be interrupted precisely because of the battleship. The waves that hit him in the nose did not just overwhelm the tower. He was smashed by the light hull of the navigating bridge (it was made around the conning tower). And this is very high. The cruiser had no particular problems in this storm. For article +.
    1. avt
      +6
      20 October 2014 11: 25
      Quote: Krang
      The waves that hit him in the nose, not just swept the tower. He was smashed by the light body of the navigation bridge (was made around the conning tower).

      what request In general, it broke the frames of the bow of the bulwark of the bulwark - the spoon, which eventually broke, again bent the pillers in the bow compartment, partially flooded them and got a trim of 0,9b, but this was already a disaster - the ship stopped entering the wave, really threatened to lose buoyancy. Even when they turned around in the stern, they beat off the cast-iron curbstone of the right spire, the ventilation mushroom, the lot was thrown onto the 4th tower and the control room of the watch commander - from the AFT behind the combat aft wheelhouse. After repairs in France, when the "spoon" was removed and replaced with a closed superstructure, the adventure ended.
      1. +1
        20 October 2014 20: 45
        In France, the "spoon" was only cut off. The second modernization, when a normal forecastle and boule appeared, was carried out much later at their factories.
        1. avt
          +1
          20 October 2014 21: 54
          Quote: Taoist
          In France, the "spoon" was only cut off

          They cut off the bulwark at the landing to the level of the upper deck, put 60 new guzhons at the pillow of the reinforcing deck, put the rails on. But it’s characteristic that the 1-degree trim remained! But the ship began to enter easily and the bow practically didn’t flood. Well, a forecastle - yes, it was set already during modernization in the USSR with boules.
  2. avt
    +5
    20 October 2014 09: 56
    ,, Battleships of the "Sevastopol" type had an extremely short range.

    Alas, there is no need to argue with this. Sad as it may seem, but it really is. "------ Why is that sad ???" Petropavlovski ", as well as the series" Borodino ", were designed to work in the waters with an extensive network of bases. TWO World Wars and served, unlike the "Tsesarevichs-Borodino", they did not have to wander like the wretches of the Second Squadron in wartime, the same "Sevastopol" with the "Red Crimea" {always liked this name, which he raised to a height of dashing the crew of the cruiser on the Black Sea} were transferred in time. Well, they were not originally designed as "sea wanderers - raiders".
    1. +1
      20 October 2014 14: 28
      The "Petropavlovski", as well as the "Borodino" series, were designed to operate in the waters with an extensive network of bases

      Well, the same Dian 183 tons were removed with an advantage, namely coal, since French promised to provide their bases during the transition.
    2. +3
      20 October 2014 18: 23
      Quote: avt
      Why sad then ??? The “Petropavlovski”, as well as the “Borodino” series, were designed to operate in the waters with an extensive network of bases.

      Nevertheless, the design range was supposed to be 5000 miles at a speed of 13 knots
  3. +5
    20 October 2014 09: 57
    I am sorry that it was not possible for posterity to save a single battleship as a museum ...
    But the ships of the past 3 wars (and maybe 4)
  4. Crang
    0
    20 October 2014 10: 07
    I urge dear readers to avoid one logical mistake, which no-no, yes, I notice on the Internet. It is impossible to compare the dreadnoughts standing in the harbor with the destroyers cruising on enemy communications and say that destroyers are more effective. It is necessary to compare the effect of the active actions of the battleships and the active actions of the destroyers, and then it was already to draw conclusions.
    So that's just the point the author. The huge battleships cannot be actively used because of their excessive cost. And as a consequence, their small number. If you have ten battleships of the "battleship" type, then the loss of one or two will certainly be unpleasant, but not a critical situation. And if you have two huge dreadnoughts, then the loss of one immediately deprives the fleet of half of the strike force! And if there are no opportunities to quickly build these ships, then naturally their "active" use will be extremely careful (without any adventures) and therefore, as a rule, not very effective. I said and I say - battleships were better fighters than dreadnoughts for this very reason.
    1. +3
      20 October 2014 11: 13
      Therefore, our battleships stood in the base throughout the war, and mine production with submarines contributed to this, but no matter what, these ships served for half a century when their classmates were already cut into needles.
      1. 0
        8 September 2015 13: 36
        So they didn’t build anything else, so they served 40 years (and not half a century)
    2. +1
      20 October 2014 18: 24
      Quote: Krang
      Active use of huge battleships does not allow their excessive cost.

      Well, I would not say that our Baltic cruisers were overly expensive. But they were hardly used, in any way.
  5. Crang
    0
    20 October 2014 10: 18
    If we try to imagine a coastal defense battleship in the displacement of a classic squadron battleship of the beginning of the century, i.e. 12-15 thousand tons, then ... Whatever one may say, but there is no way to make a small artillery ship stronger, or even equal to a large one (excluding tactical nuclear weapons, of course). Two battleships of the Borodino class cost approximately a Sevastopol-class dreadnought (the cost of a Borodino-class battleship ranged from 13,4 to 14,5 million rubles), but they cannot withstand it in battle.

    And this is all because Borodino is 1903, and Sevastopoli is 1914. We build "Borodintsy" at the technical level of World War I and the balance of power could well change. Plus, on the side of the two "Borodintsy", the ability to simultaneously be in two different places. And who said that the battleships could not take part in ocean campaigns? Cruisers could. Yes, and the Black Sea battleships quite clearly showed that in the dreadnought era they can participate in sea campaigns, where, using their numerical superiority, they can confidently deal with dreadnoughts. This is how you understand now - which is better - one RRC or ten RTOs? The question cannot be answered unequivocally. So the coastal defense battleships - of the "Borodintsy" type in 1 would have had 1914 guns 4mm / L305 and 52 12mm station wagons. Plus torpedoes and mines. You can fight.
    1. 0
      20 October 2014 14: 48
      Quote: Krang
      And this is all because Borodino is 1903, and Sevastopoli is 1914. We build "Borodintsy" at the technical level of World War I and the balance of power could well change. Plus, on the side of the two "Borodintsy", the ability to simultaneously be in two different places. And who said that the battleships could not take part in ocean campaigns? Cruisers could. Yes, and the Black Sea battleships quite clearly showed that in the dreadnought era they can participate in sea campaigns, where, using their numerical superiority, they can confidently deal with dreadnoughts. This is how you understand now - which is better - one RRC or ten RTOs? The question cannot be answered unequivocally. So the coastal defense battleships - of the "Borodintsy" type in 1 would have had 1914 guns 4mm / L305 and 52 12mm station wagons. Plus torpedoes and mines. You can fight.

      Do not take inflation into account for 10 years. They did not take into account the sabotage of the financial department, which allocated money not immediately, as during the construction of Borodintsy, but in parts, for several years, which led to an increase in the cost of construction by at least 10% (at least shipbuilders did not take loans, which is good).
      The modern designs of the EDB in Russia did not provide for such a large number of medium-caliber artillery, I think it would be optimal for that design idea to have 8 120..152 mm guns, otherwise security would have to be sacrificed.
      What numerical superiority could the EBR give a combat superiority over a Sevastopol-type dreadnought on the high seas, and how much would it cost? The calculation can be made in any п̶о̶п̶у̶г̶а̶ях nautical EBRs from the Ushakovs to the First-Called.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +1
      20 October 2014 17: 51
      Quote: Krang
      Yes, and the Black Sea battleships quite clearly showed that they can participate in naval campaigns in the dreadnought era, where, using numerical superiority, they can confidently deal with dreadnoughts

      Goeben is not a dreadnought, if that's what you mean. Yes, and it was reckless of him to get pissed off. That he realized in time. And after the commissioning of the "Empresses" he completely stopped sticking out
      But the battleships could have fought with Kaiser, this is a question. Although Scheer carried this antique with him, perhaps he wanted to sacrifice them as bait or throw them away
      Quote: Krang
      And if there were six of these "Slavs"?

      and if the entire High Seas Fleet would have come?
  6. +3
    20 October 2014 10: 26
    In some ways, our ships turned out to be worse, but in some ways better than their foreign counterparts, but in general they were at least “equal among equals”. Despite a number of shortcomings, battleships of the Sevastopol type could well defend the sea borders of the Fatherland with their steel breasts.
    The Sevastopol-class battleships could have been better if the modernization of the 30s had been more thoughtful. For comparison, the same age as our ships, the Italian dreadnought "Giulio Cesare". The modernization carried out by the Italians made it possible to increase the speed from 21,5 knots to 28 knots, by removing one central main turret, to improve the general architecture of the superstructures and to place powerful anti-aircraft weapons (which, by the way, was sorely lacking for our battleships during WWII). Moreover, having lost one main battery turret, the Italians squandered a 305 mm cannon for a 320 mm caliber, and, not only did not lose, but also increased the weight of the main caliber salvo. Could this have been done with us? In any case, there were projects to convert Frunze into a battle cruiser (or into an aircraft carrier). It is a pity that the topic of these projects was not reflected in the article. Nevertheless, thanks to the author for the work done and interestingly presented material.
    1. Crang
      +3
      20 October 2014 10: 29
      Quote: Per se.
      Moreover, having lost one GK turret, the Italians fired 305 mm guns at 320 mm caliber

      Yeah, we got a 320mm / L44 gun with 525kg shells.
    2. +5
      20 October 2014 18: 34
      Quote: Per se.
      For comparison, the same age as our ships, the Italian dreadnought "Giulio Cesare". The modernization carried out by the Italians allowed

      Dear Per se, this may be so, but there are two big "BUT!"
      The first is that after the modernization, the main 250 mm belt of Italians went under water forever.
      The second - the modernization of battleships flew into an enchanting pretty penny. A.A. Mikhailov in his work "Battleships of the" Conte di Cavour "type" states that the cost of modernizing 4 old Italian dreadnoughts was close to the cost of building two newest battleships of the "Littorio" class.
      At the same time, the cost of upgrading all three of our dreadnoughts turned out to be less than the cost of one light cruiser "Kirov" :)))
      As for me, the most adequate was the modernization of the "Paris Commune" - boules and 50 mm thick steel on top of the armored belt, strengthening the horizontal armor ...
      1. dipqrer
        +1
        20 October 2014 20: 19
        The Italians took up modernization for political reasons, they pressed heavily
        England, which did not want the appearance of "negotiated" battleships on the Mediterranean.
      2. 0
        21 October 2014 06: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The second - the modernization of battleships flew into the enchanting penny.
        Dear Andrey, I do not presume to dispute the statements of A. Mikhailov, but according to the Italians themselves, who originally planned to lay the foundation for a new battle cruiser, the cost of modernizing battleships of the type "Giulio Cesare" and "Conte di Cavour" was estimated within the cost of a new light cruiser. Modernization of "Andrea Doria" and "Duilio" was more significant, and, accordingly, more expensive, but hardly to enchanting values. The fact that the Italians faced a dilemma, to build new battleships of the "Littorio" type or to continue to upgrade the two remaining types "Duilio" after the battleships of the "Giulio Cesare" type, took place, but the Italians probably did the right thing. Yes, they spent time, and in the end, "Roma" was never completed, you can argue here, but if Italy entered the war not in 1940, but in 1941, perhaps all new battleships would have entered service, complementing the four modernized ones. According to our economical modernization, what can I say, "Marat" received a fatal hit from the Ju-87, not to a small extent due to the weakness of anti-aircraft weapons (which was inherent in all our modernized battleships). Maybe we shouldn't have chased after the preservation of all 12 305 mm main guns, but sacrificed one or two central turrets, for the sake of strengthening anti-aircraft weapons and reducing weight. Finally, rather than building and keeping light cruisers on the Black Sea according to the Kirov project, it would probably be better to have a battle cruiser according to the Frunze modernization project (the scheme is clickable, like the previous drawings of Giulio Cesare) and more destroyers.
        1. 0
          21 October 2014 10: 51
          Quote: Per se.
          "Roma" was never completed
          I beg your pardon, Impero, late noticed his automatic error.
        2. +3
          21 October 2014 18: 12
          Quote: Per se.
          but according to the Italians themselves, who originally planned the laying of a new battle cruiser, the cost of upgrading battleships such as "Giulio Cesare" and "Conte di Cavour" was estimated within the cost of a new light cruiser

          Admittedly, it is very difficult to believe it. Just one change of chassis and the transition from a four-shaft EU to a two-shaft will fly into a pretty penny.
          Quote: Per se.
          According to our economical modernization, what can I say, "Marat" received a fatal hit from the Ju-87 not to a small extent due to the weakness of anti-aircraft weapons

          That's right, but then what does it matter - we simply had nowhere to take decent anti-aircraft artillery. After all, what did we have? 100-mm anti-aircraft guns "Kirovs" which were not and never became anti-aircraft guns. Relatively good 76 mm anti-aircraft guns. 45mm misunderstanding. 12,7 mm assault rifles. Here at least "Soviet Union", but what to put something?
          1. +2
            21 October 2014 20: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Admittedly, it is very difficult to believe it.
            I will allow myself some numbers - the modernization of the Giulio Cesare and the Conte di Cavour was estimated at 150 million lire (approximately 1,89 million pounds sterling) for the ship, the modernization of the Cai Duilio and Andrea Doria at 200 million lire (2,5 million pounds sterling). According to other sources, "Giulio Cesare" and "Conte di Cavour" at about 1,247 million pounds, and "Cai Duilio" and "Andrea Doria" at 1,111 million and 1,009 million pounds, respectively. The total cost of the first two battleships of the Vittorio Veneto class was approximately 800 million lire (about 10 million pounds sterling) per ship. For comparison, an Italian light cruiser of the Eugene of Savoy cost about 115 million liras (1,24 million pounds), an English battleship of the type King George V cost about 10 million pounds, a French battleship of the Richelieu class 1,227 million francs (9,1 million pounds sterling).
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            decent anti-aircraft artillery we just had nowhere to take.
            Before the war, we actively collaborated with Italians in shipbuilding (projects of battleships, cruisers, destroyers), as well as with the Germans on a whole range of weapons, we could well borrow or buy. Finally, the ships could be equipped with anti-aircraft guns later, if they were adapted to this by modernization.
            1. +4
              22 October 2014 17: 02
              Quote: Per se.
              I will allow myself some numbers,

              Thank you very much! Frankly, I did not have numbers for Italian battleships.
              Quote: Per se.
              Before the war, we actively cooperated with Italians in shipbuilding (projects of battleships, cruisers, destroyers), as well as with the Germans on a whole range of weapons,

              Alas. The Italians themselves did not have any decent anti-aircraft artillery.
              Before the war, they themselves removed their Minisini, and the 37-mm assault rifles were far from ice - over-lightened, poor accuracy, vibration during shooting, and so on and so forth.
              And the Germans ... the Germans before 34 did not make a single decent sample of small-caliber artillery - what we bought from them already, but neither the Germans could bring to the series. Then Hitler pinned down and the relationship was covered with a copper basin. And after the warming of relations (the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact), in general, they also did not have good.
              Before Hitler, we could make a decent naval anti-aircraft gun based on the 88-mm aht-coma-aht (sorry for the oil), but ... it didn’t work out. And after that it was possible to try to chop off the 105-mm spark quicker, but they wouldn’t have time to set up its mass production before the war by any means.
              The ideal option would be to purchase a Swedish bofors and send it to the series. But no - they began to "improve" the 37-mm machine gun ...
              By the way - a decent wagon could be developed jointly with the Swedes. Bofors then was a young little-known company, for joint development would have seized ....
              1. +2
                22 October 2014 19: 52
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Alas. The Italians themselves did not have any decent anti-aircraft artillery.
                Your truth, Andrey, indeed, the 100 mm Minisini systems were outdated by the beginning of the war, and the 37 mm and 20 mm Breda assault rifles suffered from strong vibration and had low targeting speeds. Nevertheless, we used Italian twin 100 mm Mizanini installations on our ships, for example, the Krasny Kavkaz and Chervona Ukraina cruisers (anti-aircraft guns were purchased for the Kirov-class cruisers, by the way, created without the help of the Italians (firm " Ansaldo) ", and light cruisers of the" Eugene of Savoy "type that strongly resemble them). We also used "Erlikons" from "Bofors" obtained under Lend-Lease. Why am I saying this, the main thing would be where to place these barrels, it is even better when it is possible to install anti-aircraft guns, getting convenient firing sectors, and all this should have been laid for the future during modernization. No matter how criticized the Italians' anti-aircraft weapons, it must be admitted that before the war the Italians were better than ours, as well as the modernization of their old dreadnoughts is incomparably more serious and thoughtful than on our battleships of the "Sevastopol" type. Thanks again for the article and our little dialogue.
        3. 0
          12 March 2019 15: 41
          Quote: Per se.
          Marat "received a fatal hit from the Ju-87, not to a small extent due to the weakness of anti-aircraft weapons (which was inherent in all our modernized battleships

          The weakness of anti-aircraft weapons was from the state of industry. There were not enough 61-K assault rifles; there were no shells for them at all. MPOZO were only Italian, quite complex, and there was no place on the battleships for the numerous anti-aircraft artillery of medium caliber 85-100 mm. In addition, the release of shells for them was the same problem.
          Specifically on that day, if the calculations of 98 semi-automatic machines 21-K were ready, they would scare away all Ju-87, but the ship was ready for battle at best by 60%.
  7. Crang
    +2
    20 October 2014 10: 32
    So it was in 1915, when the Germans at first retreated because of the fogs, but, after waiting for good weather, they were able to drive away the “Glory”, wipe our mine positions and enter the bay with light forces. So it was in 1917, when the "Glory" perished.
    Maybe because the battleship "Slava" of the old project turned out to be one against two of the best dreadnoughts in the world? And if there were six of these "Slavs"? And the 305mm / L52 guns? The point here is that experiments with squadron battleships created taking into account all the innovations of WW1 did not have. And therefore, these situations cannot be modeled correctly.
    1. avt
      +4
      20 October 2014 11: 43
      Quote: Krang
      And if there were six of these "Slavs"? And the 305mm / L52 guns? The point here is that there were no experiments with battleships created taking into account all the innovations of WW1.

      And if my grandmother ..... would have been a grandfather. Again, maybe all the same four "Ishmael" would be better ??
      Quote: Krang
      ... We build "Borodintsy" at the technical level of World War 1 and the balance of power could well change.

      Not ! Well, then why go into insanity ??? What is this level? Level 1 of the world is actually "Dreadnought".
      Quote: Krang
      Plus, on the side of the two "Borodinets", the ability to simultaneously be in two different places.

      laughing What are they? Have you mastered teleportation? As Klitschko - ,, I have two deputies, four of them are in the cabinet "????
      Quote: Krang
      And who said that the battleships could not participate in ocean voyages?

      Well, for example, the participant of Tsushima -Kostenko in "On the" Orel "in Tsushima" and very reasoned, I recommend to start familiarizing the topic with him.
      Quote: Krang
      They could have been cruisers.

      Well, you actually first get acquainted with the shipbuilding program of that time in terms of what ships and for what exactly they ordered, how they were made according to the order, and how they were used, often contrary to plans and technical characteristics. Start with Varyag, which was caulked into a mousetrap by a stationary.
      Quote: Krang
      . And the Black Sea armadillos quite clearly showed that they can participate in naval campaigns in the dreadnought era, where they can confidently deal with dreadnoughts using numerical superiority.

      They can and did - and you will get up with cancer yourself. By the way, who exactly from the dreadnoughts did they manage to figure out "??? Not an hour with the line cruiser" Goeben "??? So I will disappoint you! He, like that bun, left them, having received a couple of shells, but he also left “grandmother” “Catherine” when he ran into her, too. And he fled from sin from the Black Sea when his partner was blown up and died on mines and I caught the mine myself.
      1. Crang
        0
        20 October 2014 13: 10
        I wanted to talk constructively, but I won’t.
        1. avt
          0
          20 October 2014 13: 19
          Quote: Krang
          I wanted to talk constructively, but I won’t.

          The designer ended, as with a "light hull" near "Sevastopol" around the conning tower !? laughing It happens .
      2. Crang
        0
        20 October 2014 13: 23
        But alright. For jokes, I’ll talk with a giggling uncle.
        Quote: avt
        . Again, maybe all the same four "Ishmael" would be better ??

        Simple math dear. 2 "Borodinets" as it turned out = 1 "Sevastopol" in terms of cost and labor costs. 2 "Sevastopol" will be approximately = 1 "Izmail". Thus, for 4 "Izmail" you can get 16 "Borodintsy". So consider the balance of power.

        Quote: avt
        What is this level?

        This means cars of the level of PMV i.e. turbines instead of old piston steam engines. New optics and calculating devices of the OMS of the PMV level, instead of the old model of 1899. New guns 305mm / L52 instead of old 305mm / L40. New 130mm SK guns instead of the old 152mm. New tower automation. New shells. Etc. etc. All this belief would change the combat potential of "Glory" beyond recognition. That is, the modernization that "Slava" underwent in the 1900s and 1910s - it was still not cardinal. There, roughly speaking, they made new ones on the old hardware. But if you initially build a 15 ton battleship on technical level PMV - this will be a completely different ship.
        Quote: avt
        What are they? Have you mastered teleportation?

        Everything is much simpler. One ship is participating in one operation at one point in the world's oceans. Another ship, respectively, in another place. But one dreadnought, no matter how powerful he really will have to master teleportation, that would simultaneously be in two places of the oceans. I further ask you not to attribute to you the same born delirium.
        Quote: avt
        Well, for example, the participant of Tsushima -Kostenko in "On the" Orel "in Tsushima" and very reasoned, I recommend to start familiarizing the topic with him.

        I know this book inside and out. There is not a word about the use of Borodintsy as strike ships of the prospective fleet. The whole book is about the 2TOE campaign and battle. What to get acquainted with there in relation to this topic is completely unclear.
        Quote: avt
        Well, you actually first check out the shipbuilding program of the time

        Familiar with her.
        Quote: avt
        An hour not with the line cruiser "Goeben" ???

        It's almost the same thing. Despite the prefix "cruiser", battlecruisers were not actually battlecruisers. Tactically and strategically, they belonged to battleships. Albeit fast.
        1. avt
          +1
          20 October 2014 13: 45
          Quote: Krang
          Simple math dear. 2 "Borodinets" as it turned out = 1 "Sevastopol"

          Well, let's try in the kindergarten version. The ship is actually a weapon carrier - an armored platform. Didn't you try to count, as in the world they do, by the number of guns and the mass of the volley ?? Dap there, Borodintsev "turns out ?? Well, if you divide 12t into 4re, but taking into account 356mm" Izmail "?? No, you can, of course, count into minesweepers, then in general - "And in parrots I'm much longer!"
          Quote: Krang
          This means machines level PMV i.e. turbines instead of old reciprocating steam engines.

          Well, even the Hans, who remained with Schleiswig, did not go for such insanity, and for some reason they began to build, when they dropped all restrictions, full-fledged ships.
          Quote: Krang
          ... There is not a word about the use of Borodintsy as strike ships of the prospective fleet.

          Well, he was a sane engineer. What a fright, given the "Dreadnought", to talk about battleships as STRIKE ships, and even a PERSPECTIVE fleet! ??
          Quote: Krang
          in fact, no battlecruisers were battlecruisers.

          In the old man, Fisher would be surprised at such a statement ... laughing Well, the commander of "Goeben", who, despite the presence of a squadron of old battleships with well-trained artillerymen in the work of the formation, ruled the Black Sea as he wanted, carrying out shelling of the coast, even in the presence of "Empresses", using superiority in speed, that is worked exactly as a CRUISER. Only when they really began to cut it off from the Bosphorus by mine-laying and the partner, as already said, ran into it until drowning, they removed it from sin away until the 18th year. Yes, how to say about-
          Quote: Krang
          So it was in 1917, when the "Glory" perished.
          Maybe because the battleship "Slava" of the old project turned out to be one against the two best dreadnoughts in the world?

          Maybe it is worth mentioning the fact that there is also a "Citizen", who was the founder of the dynasty in the form of "Tsarevich", and the "Noviks" covered with "Bayan"?
          1. Crang
            +1
            20 October 2014 14: 16
            Quote: avt
            A ship is generally a weapon carrier - an armored platform.

            Truly so.
            Quote: avt
            They didn’t try to count, as they generally do in the world, by the number of guns and the mass of the salvo ??

            But this is incoherent nonsense. Aren't you drunk there by chance? The battleship of that time was a really armored platform (it is today the same platform, but not armored in most cases) for placing weapons. At that time, the following main types of offensive naval weapons existed:
            1. Heavy artillery of large caliber (expressed in Slava and even more strongly in Izmail).
            2. Rapid-fire medium-caliber artillery (pronounced on the Slava and weakly on the Izmail - in% of the displacement).
            3. Torpedoes (pronounced on Slava and absent on Izmail).
            4. Land (landing) weapons (weakly expressed on "Slava" and absent on "Izmail")
            and defensive:
            5. Mines (pronounced on "Slava" and absent on "Izmail").
            6. Mine artillery (pronounced on "Slava" and "Izmail").
            7. Antiaircraft artillery (moderately expressed on "Slava" and "Izmail").
            Thus, "Slava", having about the same percentage of heavy offensive weapons of its size as "Izmail", was at one time a much more universal ship. When setting the task of creating an battleship in the era of the dreadnought, the balance in the forces and means of onboard weapons could well have been changed. I mean that the "Slava" could have 4 - 356mm guns.
            Quote: avt
            Well, even the Hans who remained with Schleiswig did not go for such insanity

            Naturally, they did not follow the example of the Italians (a clear aftertaste) and did not begin to modernize the old battleships so radically, but if they had done them from scratch, they are more than sure that turbines would have taken the place of the GSU.
            Quote: avt
            Well, he was a sane engineer. What a fright, given the "Dreadnought", to talk about battleships as STRIKE ships, and even a PERSPECTIVE fleet! ??

            What's the problem? Now, after all, the RK, MRK and SKR are quite shocking ships. And this is in the presence of RRC. What is the problem then? And on land, such tanks as KV-85 and IS-2/3 were considered quite shock machines, even in the presence of huge multi-tower T-35, SMK, T-100, etc. Moreover, as it is known, quite successful shock machines. Their strength was not only in their quality, but also in their quantity.
            1. avt
              0
              20 October 2014 14: 51
              Quote: Krang
              Truly so.

              Well, thank God !
              Quote: Krang
              2. Rapid-fire medium-caliber artillery (pronounced on the Slava and weakly on the Izmail - in% of the displacement).

              ????? requestObukhov's 130 mm there are twenty pieces or something, I don’t remember from memory, weaker than 6-152mm on ,, Glory ”!! ??? Because of% and even from the displacement reserve !! ??? laughing
              Quote: Krang
              4. Land (landing) weapons (weakly expressed on "Slava" and absent on "Izmail")
              and defensive:

              Well, forgive me, but here it is for sure either you .... well, not too much in the subject, or simply the arguments end and you really don't know what to shove! And when and where this "landing" weapons in life were used then ????
              Quote: Krang
              3. Torpedoes (pronounced on Slava and absent on Izmail).

              Well, yes, when did the battleships go into torpedo attacks ??? But in ramming - yes, the Italians had to deal with it once, and they carried everything with dead and dangerous cargo, especially underwater.
              Quote: Krang
              5. Mines (pronounced on "Slava" and absent on "Izmail").

              I just see this epic picture of mine productions from the squadron of battleships! laughing
              Quote: Krang
              Thus, "Slava", having about the same percentage of heavy offensive weapons of its size as "Izmail", was at one time a much more universal ship.

              How everything is running then! A sailing battleship could also be a stealth in the modern fleet.
              Quote: Krang
              ... I mean that the "Slava" could have 4 - 356mm guns.

              laughing Could - brick it up with concrete in a dry dock and put 356mm.
              Quote: Krang
              but if they were to do them from scratch, I’m more than sure that turbines would take the place of the gas control system.

              Exactly! Well, Essen, too - probably, Rurik "the second was offered to do with turbines, here you were happy with the theory of" universal ships ", but no - they began to do" Izmail "well, stupid!
              1. Crang
                0
                20 October 2014 15: 31
                Quote: avt
                Obukhov's 130 mm there are twenty pieces or something, I don’t remember from memory, weaker than 6-152mm on ,, Glory ”!! ??? Because of% and even from the displacement reserve !! ???

                24 to be exact. But this is a negligible percentage of the total share of the displacement intended for the installation of weapons. This time. And two - they were placed low above the water in casemate installations, which immediately depreciates them as an artillery complex of medium caliber. In fact, this is artillery of an anti-mine caliber (which in those years had already merged in caliber with the once average, but functionally it became a bit later).
                Quote: avt
                Well, forgive me, but here it is for sure either you .... well, not too much in the subject, or simply the arguments end and you really don't know what to shove! And when and where this "landing" weapons in life were used then ????

                Not important. It is important that it was, and the fact of its necessity will confirm a sizable number of MDK, BDK currently located in our navy.
                Quote: avt
                Well, yes, when did the battleships go into torpedo attacks ???

                It happened sometimes. For example, our auxiliary cruiser Ural was sunk by a torpedo fired from the battleship Mikasa. In general, battleships need torpedoes so that, after a hot artillery duel, they do not allow the opponent to crawl to their port, but reliably send him to the bottom. Practice has shown that to do it only artillery is extremely difficult (see how the Bismarck was sunk).
                Quote: avt
                I just see this epic picture of mine productions from the squadron of battleships!

                What is the problem then? Mines are reloaded on a couple of mine boats (available on board) and exhibited. A good solution when placing mines at positions inaccessible to mine loaders due to the great distance from the base.
                Quote: avt
                How everything is running then! A sailing battleship could also be a stealth in the modern fleet.

                Sailing battleship due to the fact that at that time of naval weapons existed only artillery, and the sails gave an almost unlimited range of sailing in general was an absolutely universal ship. Therefore, the classes of ships were then divided not for their intended purpose, but simply by tonnage and that’s all. Now they are returning to this again.
                Quote: avt
                Could - brick it up with concrete in a dry dock and put 356mm.

                Could put and just instead of the old 305mm guns. The rotating parts (towers) of the artillery mounts of the Russian battleships differed in that they had very large internal volumes. And in length, and in width, and in height. Much more than towers of English or Japanese ships, for example. And more than French towers. This made it relatively easy to upgrade the installation.
                Quote: avt
                , but no - they began to do "Ishmaels" well, stupid!

                And could you finish it? That and that.
                1. +2
                  20 October 2014 18: 01
                  Quote: Krang
                  In general, torpedoes are needed for battleships so that after a hot artillery duel they would not allow the opponent to creep into their port, but reliably send it to the bottom

                  Excuse me, why then destroy the destroyers? If the battleship itself goes into a torpedo attack?
                  Quote: Krang
                  quite confidently entered into a duel with battleships

                  Let me ask you what? And with what consequences? If you mean his sisterships in Jutland, then it’s not from a good life
          2. Crang
            +2
            20 October 2014 14: 16
            Quote: avt
            ,, Empresses ", taking advantage of the superiority in speed, that is, he worked exactly as a CRUISER

            He worked exactly as a RAIDER. Raider and cruiser are not the same thing. A cruiser is an AUXILIARY class ship of MEDIUM size, one of the main tasks of which was single, independent navigation in order to reveal the surface situation and fight against merchant fleets and small warships of the enemy. "Goeben" 200m long, which quite confidently entered into a duel with battleships, in fact was not any cruiser. Just a lightweight fast battleship.
            Quote: avt
            Maybe it is worth mentioning the fact that there is also a "Citizen" who was the founder of the dynasty in the form of "Tsarevich"

            "Tsarevich" was poorly modernized. No measures were taken on it to increase the firing range (the close fighting compartment of the main gun mounts prevented it) and at those distances at which Slava fought the Germans, it could not shoot. So the "Citizen" was there, of course, but only as a punching bag chop (I caught two 305mm suitcases). In fact "Glory" fought against the Germans alone.
            1. avt
              +1
              20 October 2014 15: 01
              Quote: Krang
              He worked precisely as a Raider. A raider and a cruiser are not the same thing.

              good Urgently correct Wikipedia and everything else, otherwise they are the devil who write - ,, Cruiser (Dutch kruiser, from kruisen - to sail by sea) is a ship capable of performing tasks independently of the main fleet, among which may be the fight against light forces of the fleet and enemy merchant ships, defense of ship formations and convoys ... "
              Quote: Krang
              What's the problem?

              They have missed a lot of campaigns in life, if you don’t see the differences between the large-caliber barrel artillery of those years and -
              Quote: Krang
              Now, after all, the RK, MRK and SKR are quite shocking ships. And this is in the presence of RRC.

              Quote: Krang
              "Tsarevich" was poorly modernized. No measures were taken on it to increase the firing range (the close fighting compartment of the main gun mounts prevented) and at the distances at which the Slava fought the Germans,

              Well, he walked closer to them, though he worked on minesweepers and everything smaller. Look for the maneuvering scheme for the battle - everything will immediately fall into place, or descriptions from the ship's log. And the heroic "Slava" nevertheless as part of the connection of ships, called in the common people a squadron.
              Quote: Krang
              ? And on land, such tanks as KV-85 and IS-2/3 were considered quite shock machines, even in the presence of huge multi-tower T-35, SMK, T-100, etc. Moreover, quite successful shock machines are known.

              Yeah ... especially in the presence of T-35, QMS ..... laughing How is it in the "Ordinary Miracle" - "And who is our husband? A magician. We need to warn you!" laughing “I am aware of my guilt, measure, degree, depth, and I ask you to direct me to the current war."
              1. Crang
                0
                20 October 2014 15: 45
                Quote: avt
                Urgently fix Wikipedia and everything else

                With your permission, I will use the Great Soviet Encyclopedia:
                Cruiser (gall. Kruiser, from kruisen - swim the sea, cruise)
                combat surface ship designed to combat light forces of the fleet the enemy, the defense of the formations of warships and convoys, ensuring the landing of naval assault forces, the fire support of the coastal flanks of the ground forces, the setting of minefields and the fulfillment of other combat missions.

                The highlighted item immediately allows you to carry the "Goeben" with the battleships.
                Quote: avt
                They have missed a lot of campaigns in life, if you don’t see the differences between the large-caliber barrel artillery of those years and -

                I see the difference. And I understand the essence of this difference, which is important. Unlike you.
                Quote: avt
                Well, he walked closer to them,

                Not close enough to get to the German battleships.
        2. +1
          20 October 2014 14: 29
          Quote: Krang
          But alright. For jokes, I’ll talk with a giggling uncle.
          Quote: avt
          . Again, maybe all the same four "Ishmael" would be better ??

          Simple math dear. 2 "Borodinets" as it turned out = 1 "Sevastopol" in terms of cost and labor costs. 2 "Sevastopol" will be approximately = 1 "Izmail". Thus, for 4 "Izmail" you can get 16 "Borodintsy". So consider the balance of power.
          .


          Build 16 obsolete ships to World War I, why and where? The article says that there were only 4 shipyards capable of building large ships, because of the lack of capacity it was necessary to order ships abroad.
          1. Crang
            0
            20 October 2014 14: 46
            Quote: Hiking
            Build 16 obsolete ships to World War I, why and where? The article says that there were only 4 shipyards capable of building large ships, because of the lack of capacity it was necessary to order ships abroad.

            Are you consciously all kidding me? Or so stupid that you can’t read? Or are you reading an article diagonally? Build 16 most modern battleships but displacement no more than 12 - 15 000 t, instead of 4 "Izmailov". Do you understand the difference? "Borodintsy" are given here only as an example. In total, there are 16 battleships with armor up to 200-300mm, armament 4 - 305mm / L52 + 12 - 130mm / L60 + 533mm torpedoes + mines and speed thanks to turbines of 20-22uz. This will in most cases be more beneficial than 4 Ishmael. Do you not understand that the growth in size and cost (which is never equal to quality, but what you constantly confuse) just buried the battleship as a class? Can you understand THAT? Not the appearance of missiles or aircraft. Namely sizes and cost buried the battleship. So the standard of this class of warships can be considered the battleships of the Borodino type. That's no more, no less.
            1. +1
              20 October 2014 16: 48
              are you kidding me, they have already told you several times that the slipways were not enough for the construction of ships of the 15 kiloton class
            2. +4
              20 October 2014 18: 03
              Quote: Krang
              To build 16 of the most modern battleships but with a displacement of no more than 12-15 tons, instead of 000 Izmailovs.

              Dear Krang, it won't work that way. Surprisingly, but "Izmail" turned out to be not too expensive than "Sevastopol" - its total cost was estimated at 30,5 million rubles. Why is that? It is extremely difficult to answer. It is possible that the high cost of "Sevastopol" is due to the fact that they were pioneers and the builders had to include in the cost many of the costs of bringing production to the required level.
              For the plus - thanks!
            3. +1
              20 October 2014 18: 14
              Quote: Krang
              Do you understand the difference?

              With all due respect, but it’s impossible to fit all this into 15000
              you’ll have to sacrifice something. And you will get ...... a pocket battleship that could not withstand three cruisers
        3. 0
          20 October 2014 15: 17
          Quote: Krang
          This means cars of the level of PMV i.e. turbines instead of old piston steam engines. New optics and calculating devices of the OMS of the PMV level, instead of the old model of 1899. New guns 305mm / L52 instead of old 305mm / L40. New 130mm SK guns instead of the old 152mm. New tower automation. New shells. Etc. etc. All this belief would change the combat potential of "Glory" beyond recognition. That is, the modernization that "Slava" underwent in the 1900s and 1910s - it was still not cardinal. There, roughly speaking, they made new ones on the old hardware. But if you initially build a 15-ton battleship at the technical level of PMA, it will be a completely different ship.

          First of all, the new 305 / L52 artillery system was heavier, and had a greater recoil momentum, which would have forced to add reinforcements under the tower and counterweight, so that at least they were unequal in weight. The new ammunition was also 50% heavier. As a result, the EBR, when converted, would have grown considerably from 15000 tons to 20000 tons. And this is almost Sevastopol in size. And still he would have loaded and more slowly ̶п̶о̶п̶л̶ыл went.
          1. Crang
            -2
            20 October 2014 15: 56
            Quote: goose
            First of all, the new 305 / L52 artillery system was heavier

            Harder than what? Heavier than the 305mm / L40 cannons on the 14 ton "Borodintsy", but lighter than the 000mm / L305 cannons on the 35 ton "Navarino" for example.
            Quote: goose
            As a result, the EDB would have considerably grown fat from 15000 tons to 20000 during the rework.

            Bullshit. Do not write such garbage more than Zaya.
            1. 0
              20 October 2014 20: 35
              Probably the respected Krang means an armadillo like a German pocket battleship, but with 6 / 305 g.k. equipment?
            2. The comment was deleted.
        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. 0
          12 March 2019 15: 43
          Quote: Krang
          Thus, for 4 "Izmail" you can get 16 "Borodintsy".

          I'm afraid 4 Ishmael will be drowned by all 16 Borodino in 2 battles.
  8. +2
    20 October 2014 10: 56
    “I told you and still say - armadillos were better fighters than dreadnoughts for this very reason.” Krang.
    Change the flag Sevastopol has always been and will be Russian
    Battleships were built for a decisive squadron battle with their own kind, and the battleships of the dreadnought were not suitable for battle with dreadnoughts due to the low combat resistance to damage compared to dreadnoughts. Armadillos are certainly cheaper, and outdated at that time. However, “iron” means little without people, so it seems to me that using experienced personnel from the armadillo’s crew should be done on new ships, rather than losing them based on the statement “women will give birth to new women.” The loss of a ship is, first of all, the loss of valuable specialists, which there is simply no one to replace.
    On seaworthiness, yes, I would like it better, but received on these ships provided combat in the naval theaters of the Russian Empire.
    The sailing range was quite sufficient for the tasks of the Russian fleet. I repeat once again, the ship is a complex which often combines incompatible requirements during design and construction.
    According to Krylov. The project was not the best. The winner was the Blom and Foss shipyard, but politics intervened and a project would be chosen that would take the second place, especially since it had the best hull design. By the way, the fate of the cruisers "Amur Ants" and the interweaving with the "Mistral" prove that it is better to build houses.
    1. +1
      20 October 2014 20: 29
      I thought you post a photo of the winner of the competition ((
    2. The comment was deleted.
  9. -2
    20 October 2014 11: 54
    Now everyone can judge the quality of Sevastopol. but no one can serve them and their own skin to feel all their weaknesses and strengths. as you know, the truth is somewhere in between.
  10. +1
    20 October 2014 14: 28
    Quote: Krang

    So that's just the point the author. The huge battleships cannot be actively used because of their excessive cost. And as a consequence, their small number. If you have ten battleships of the "battleship" type, then the loss of one or two will certainly be unpleasant, but not a critical situation. And if you have two huge dreadnoughts, then the loss of one immediately deprives the fleet of half of the strike force! And if there are no opportunities to quickly build these ships, then naturally their "active" use will be extremely careful (without any adventures) and therefore, as a rule, not very effective. I said and I say - battleships were better fighters than dreadnoughts for this very reason.

    You tell the German commander of a very small Turkish squadron at the World Cup, which, following your canons, was supposed to sit in the port and rust the whole war.
  11. 0
    20 October 2014 14: 46
    “You cannot compare the dreadnoughts standing in the harbor with the destroyers cruising on enemy lines of communication and say that destroyers are more effective.
    Well, I don’t know .... Standing in Bismarck Bay strained the British Admiralty much more than all German destroyers roaming the northern seas.
    1. +1
      8 September 2015 14: 39
      Tirpitz, not Bismarck
  12. +3
    20 October 2014 17: 31
    The battleship was built not only for war, but also in the quality of prestige. An indicator of the development of science, finance and technology in the country. So it is not surprising that they were cherished and kept in bases. The battles of battleships in the WWI can be counted on the fingers.
  13. +2
    20 October 2014 20: 03
    And all the same, well done Andrey! New perspective introduced!
    1. +1
      24 October 2014 16: 41
      Thank!:)
  14. +5
    20 October 2014 20: 43
    The last part disappointed ...

    No matter how the author tried to "debunk the myth," it turned out not convincing, and in general, the author's calculations suggest just the opposite thoughts.
    "Low seaworthiness" - Whatever one may say, low ... not because it was poorly designed, no - everything was determined by the specifics of the maritime theater for which the ships were being prepared. Icebreaking lines are important in the freezing Gulf of Finland, but behave very unimportantly in the open sea ... And this was also aggravated by construction overload and structural diffusion ... Add to this the extremely low (for a ship of this class) range - and we get that in the principle of "large battleship of coastal defense" - optimized for combat in a limited naval theater near its bases ... But "Izmail" was designed for completely different tasks ...

    What caused the construction of just such "floating batteries" and not cruisers with destroyers? And the same "limited theater. Russia has no sea communications for which" defenders of trade "are needed ... And there are no overseas colonies ... That is, the main task of the fleet is" coastal defense "- and here we don't even need a lot of" ships lines "- it is quite enough to inflict" unacceptable damage "on the enemy - not to let the landing operations be carried out calmly ... And here 12 barrels in an onboard salvo - a low silhouette and the ability to" break the distance "in a covered position in case of need - what the doctor ordered. ..
    1. +2
      21 October 2014 18: 06
      Quote: Taoist
      The last part disappointed ...

      I'm sorry.
      Quote: Taoist
      No matter how the author tried to "debunk the myth," it turned out not convincing, and in general, the author's calculations suggest just the opposite thoughts.

      Anything can be. But I will forgive you to draw your attention to the fact that no one has deigned to prove that the "Sevastopol" had poor seaworthiness. I never found any argumentation in the sources. Here's the bad one, and that's it.
      And an unfounded statement is a myth.
      Quote: Taoist
      Add to this the extremely low (for a ship of this class) range - and we get that, in principle, a "large battleship of coastal defense" - optimized for combat in a limited naval theater near its bases.

      Yes, he was not planned like that. They wanted to get a decent range - 5000 miles on 13 nodes, but it didn’t work out. And 6 meters of board height, in principle, is not so bad for seaworthiness, but overload ...
      1. +2
        21 October 2014 21: 20
        Well, seaworthiness is determined not only (and to some extent) by the freeboard height. And the designers knew very well that by giving the bow end "icebreaker contours" they sacrifice first of all seaworthiness. Do you not consider the "poor germination on the wave", the flooding of the upper deck even with insignificant waves, mentioned in almost all known sources as "proof"? Those. did people complain about it from the lantern? There is a famous photo of Gangut on sea trials - it is clearly visible that with practically no excitement, the nose part is filled ... What more proof do you need? Alas, it will no longer be possible to talk with eyewitnesses ... As for the range ... yes, the MTK gave such performance characteristics for design - but when it became clear that it was not just a ship that was being designed but a weapon platform, then the "sturgeon was immediately cut down" ... having sacrificed everything that was possible and it is impossible ... In particular, our Sevastopols stupidly had a relatively lower (in% of displacement) fuel supply. (9% relative to 13-15% among classmates) - this also shows that the range was deliberately sacrificed ... Yes, initially they wanted to get a full-fledged battleship - but then (in particular, due to the pressure of MGSH artillery lobby) they designed and built an "artillery barge" - a supermonitor for battle on the "Minnoartilerry position" - which was a forced (well, we did not pull a full-fledged fleet then) but a reasonable measure ... By the way, it is not surprising, but the Baltic battleships in this capacity showed themselves perfectly in the fire of the Great Patriotic War. (again, the specifics of the theater)
        1. +2
          22 October 2014 16: 45
          Quote: Taoist
          Do you not consider the "poor germination on the wave", the flooding of the upper deck even with insignificant waves, mentioned in almost all known sources as "proof"?

          No, I don’t think so. In essence, each source replicates the same phrase "on a small for such a large ship the excitement swept the upper deck." This is in no way a "testimony of many eyewitnesses" And the flooding of the upper deck at full speed with some unknown excitement does not give an idea of ​​when the lnkor could act with artillery and in which - not
          Quote: Taoist
          There is a well-known photo of the Gangut at sea trials - it is clearly visible that with almost no excitement the nose is flooded ..

          There is. And there is, for example, a photo "Moltke"
          Will you scold him too? For poor seaworthiness?
          Quote: Taoist
          Regarding the range ... yes, the MTK gave such performance characteristics for design - but when it became clear that it was not just a ship but a gun platform that was being designed, then "the sturgeon was immediately cut down" ...

          Would you deign to refer to the sources - when, who and where "cut the sturgeon"? :)) I bet if you find documents according to which "Sevastopoli" was redesigned into a "coastal defense battery" - the universal recognition of marine historians is guaranteed to you
          Quote: Taoist
          In particular, our Sevastopol stupidly had a relatively lower (in% of the displacement) fuel supply. (9% relative to 13-15% among classmates) - this also shows that the range was deliberately sacrificed ...

          Dear Taoist, there is an official version - the Sevastopol power plant was designed so that it would provide a range of 5000 miles at 13 knots. And she, the infection, turned out to be in fact much more voracious than the project, so the cruising range was significantly reduced.
          This version fits almost everything. Including a small supply of fuel - why more if the planned supply provided the required 5000 miles with the planned parameters of the EU?
          You are:
          1) You declare that Sevastopol was redesigned, which is not confirmed by any source
          2) Endow its designers with superpowers - even before the power plant of Sevastopol was embodied in metal, they learned that the required level of fuel consumption would be "exceeded" and designed the ship according to real, not planned parameters of the chassis!
          There is such a thing, Occam's razor. It says - "do not multiply entities beyond necessary"
          Quote: Taoist
          built an "artillery barrage" - a supermonitor for a battle at the "minnoartillery position" - which was a forced (well, we did not pull a full-fledged fleet then) but a reasonable measure ...

          Yeah. And after that laid the battlecruisers over 30 thousand tons of displacement. The most useful ship for mine artillery position :))
          Quote: Taoist
          By the way, it’s not surprising, but the Baltic battleships proved to be excellent in this quality in the Great Patriotic War. (again, the specifics of the theater)

          Given the absence of mine-artillery positions in the Baltic in WWII - it is amazing
          1. +1
            22 October 2014 16: 47
            photo moltke
  15. +1
    21 October 2014 09: 06
    Quote: Taoist
    And here 12 barrels in an onboard salvo - a low silhouette and the ability to "break the distance" in a covered position in case of need - what the doctor ordered ...

    So it turns out that Sevastopoli were at the right time and in the right place. Those. this project fully met all the assigned tasks.
  16. -1
    21 October 2014 10: 37
    Regarding the dispute about battleships ... You can add that I personally know of only one project that I consider successful - the Greek battleship Salamis


    The battleship “SALAMIS”, Greece (project).

    Built in Germany. Laid down in 1913, launched in 1914
    Normal displacement 19 500 t, overhead line length 1 73,7 m, width 24,7 m, draft 7,6 m. Power of a three-shaft steam turbine unit 40 000 hp, speed 23 knots.
    Armor: belt 250-100 mm, towers and barbets up to 250 mm, deck 75-40 mm, wheelhouse 30 mm.
    Armament: eight 356-mm and twelve 152-mm guns, twelve 75-mm guns, 5 torpedo tubes.
    Scrap unfinished in 1932


    Well armed, compact. The rainfall is small. I think such ships would be very good for the Baltic! And in terms of displacement, they are almost the same armadillos that the esteemed KRENG dreams of.
    http://battleships.spb.ru/0895/salamis.html
    1. +3
      21 October 2014 18: 22
      Quote: Trapper7
      It can be added that I personally know only one project that I consider successful - the Greek battleship Salamis

      Yes, on paper his performance characteristics look good. But, most likely, if you look closely, it turns out that the 250-mm armor covered a couple of square meters on both sides, etc. The Germans themselves did not want to finish building it as if it did not meet the requirements of the Hochseeflotte. And this is something, yes it says.
      I do not believe that 8 356-mm can be effectively shoved into 19,5 kilotons of displacement :)))
  17. +3
    21 October 2014 11: 12
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    Probably the respected Krang means an armadillo like a German pocket battleship, but with 6 / 305 g.k. equipment?

    Krang probably meant the reincarnation of pocket battleships such as Deutschland. But with reduced parameters of the power plant, reinforced armor up to 200-250 mm, and probably with 2 three-gun installations 305 / L52 from Sevastopol. Add TA, medium artillery. How much is there? 12x130? 6 towers with a minimum armor of 70-80 mm. And all this is on the technologies of the beginning of the First World War. And squeeze all this into 12-15 kilotons with a slight draft.

    It sounds fantastic, even if you connect Germans or Franks to create a power plant. Such parameters could be obtained only in the late 20s, on American power supercompact units.
  18. +2
    21 October 2014 19: 43
    I will express my opinion. Our battleships were the fruit of the capabilities of the Russian Empire and the tasks that set before them. I don’t think that they were built for fighting in the open ocean, so they were designed and created accordingly. How could they help in the wars, what do you do, that fate was sometimes tragic. But they played their role and Germany knew that they exist in the Baltic and took them into account.
  19. +3
    21 October 2014 20: 16
    Quote: goose
    Krang probably meant the reincarnation of pocket battleships such as Deutschland. But with reduced parameters of the power plant, reinforced armor up to 200-250 mm, and probably with 2 three-gun installations 305 / L52 from Sevastopol. Add TA, medium artillery. How much is there? 12x130? 6 towers with a minimum armor of 70-80 mm. And all this is on the technologies of the beginning of the First World War. And squeeze all this into 12-15 kilotons with a slight draft.

    Oh, yes, and as one famous German used to say about the brainchild of another: "It would have turned out to be an excellent warship, with excellent characteristics, but which would have had one significant drawback, - as soon as it was launched, it immediately turned over." , - waited for the continuation, read it with pleasure.
  20. +2
    21 October 2014 21: 28
    But if we ordered the dreadnoughts in England ...

    ... And there would have been a century ago in the Russian fleet the same situation as with the current foreign "Mistrals" wassat
  21. 0
    23 October 2014 20: 19
    about "Sevastopol", an interesting article
    http://www.vodaspb.ru/arhive/vp_sssr/analitica/2014/pro_voini_a4_20140828/pro_vo
    ini_a4_20140828.pdf
    1. +1
      24 October 2014 17: 01
      Forgive me, but all these tales about the fact that the Sevastopol armor was supposedly designed against high-explosive shells, I have already analyzed in previous articles. Why give such links?
  22. 0
    5 November 2019 08: 44
    battleships of the "Sevastopol" type can rightfully be considered a success of domestic industry and design thought

    They did not become ideal ships, but took a worthy place in the ranks of foreign peers.

    Success yes ... they built something ....
    They did not take any worthy place. In order to take something to fight it is necessary ..... The Baltic battleships stood calmly throughout the First World War, when they were "at least something like"