Military Review

"Option with shooting in Spain excluded"

"Option with shooting in Spain excluded"The Spanish Constitutional Court de facto banned a plebiscite on the issue of the country's territorial integrity. And this is despite the fact that the event itself was called by its organizers rather modestly: “Non-referendum public consultations regarding the political future of Catalonia”. However, even this non-binding format seemed unacceptable to Madrid. The reasons for such a tough position of the Spanish leadership and whether the idea of ​​creating an independent Catalan state can have any prospect were told in an interview to Rosbaltu by the editor-in-chief of the magazine Modern Europe, a leading researcher at the Institute of Europe, RAS, Viktor Mironenko.

- In your opinion, why did the Spanish government reacted so painfully to the idea of ​​a plebiscite, and in fact, to a non-binding survey in Catalonia? Moreover, the referendum in Scotland on the issue of its withdrawal from the UK has just recently ended, and no one there banned it from holding, but did the unity of the United Kingdom only get stronger?

- This is customary for Spain. This is her sore point, a sore point for Spaniards - mentally, psychologically, and politically. All this история It has been stretching for many decades, and this does not make it softer or tougher. In Catalonia, there are always some national demonstrations, hanging out national flags on the balconies, and so on. Accordingly, the reaction of the Spanish government to this attempt at a plebiscite in Catalonia is quite common.

In addition, we must be aware of what Barcelona is for Catalonia and its economy for Spain and its economy. I would call this city "New York of the Mediterranean". Therefore, the first reaction, which was shown by the Prime Minister of the country, Mariano Rajoy, to the idea of ​​holding a plebiscite, is quite traditional: first “no”, then the conversation begins.

- Does the idea of ​​creating an independent Catalan state have any prospects?

- Who would have thought 25 years ago that Ukraine or Belarus would be independent?

In politics, there is a principle: "never say" never "." Therefore, to say that there is no such perspective at all, I cannot. Moreover, the Catalans themselves are very passionate. But their drive is different from the post-Soviet or even Basque. She will never turn into armed struggle. Catalonia is an economically prosperous region of Spain, with a fairly educated, intellectually developed population, so I don’t think that this issue can turn into a form of bloodshed.

I believe that the question of Catalan independence should be put in the context of the pan-European process. Much will depend on how the EU develops. Will it turn into a confederation of states or into some kind of quasi-state, or will the theory of "Europe of Regions" be implemented, contested, by the way, by specialists of our institute. Much will depend on this.

- How can I solve this problem?

- The problem of Catalan self-determination will not be resolved in the foreseeable future, it will be present, but will not acquire an extreme character. Only time can remove it. Most likely, it will not be in the form of the Catalans' refusal of their idea, but in the form of a change in our ideas about the European Union, about the national state and its forms. But the solution to this issue in the traditional form: "Catalonia is an independent state" - I can not imagine.

- Почему?

“Because many problems, like in the post-Soviet space, are not standing there.” This year my wife and I were in Catalonia. My wife asked one of our compatriots, who have been living there for a long time: "How do you solve language problems?".

So, the woman replied that there are no such problems in Catalonia - all Catalan schoolchildren study their native language at school on a par with Spanish, and also English or French to choose from. Therefore, nationalism there is more civilized, refined, or something.

- Is the idea of ​​a federal or confederative organization of the country discussed in Spain?

- It seems to me that both the Spanish government and the Spaniards themselves react to this topic very painfully. You need to know the history of this country. They have been killing each other there not long ago. True, the watershed then took place more on political issues (the civil war in Spain in the 30-s of the 20th century), but the ethnic problems were also very serious.

The Monkloa Pact, which representatives of the main political forces of Spain concluded in the 1977 year after the transition from the dictatorship of General Franco to democracy, said: "sleep well, it should not happen again." This implied not only the need to end the fight with each other of the fascists, democrats and communists, but also of any other conflict situations leading to civil war. For the Spaniards, the Catalans and the Basques, everything is still fresh in their memory and that is why they will avoid confrontation in every possible way.

- That is, this idea is not discussed?

- It may be discussed, but I do not think that she can get serious support in Spanish society. And if so, then the Catalans will think. In any case, as in the Donbass, they will not fire at each other with “grads”. It is excluded.

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  1. Anton Gavrilov
    Anton Gavrilov 8 October 2014 18: 48
    Someone would have doubted that he would be put on the brakes / Understood that in the case of a referendum, it wouldn’t work out like in Scotland, that's all!
    1. Civil
      Civil 8 October 2014 18: 53
      Give the Catalan People's Republic! Inter-brigades! But Pasaran!
      1. subbtin.725
        subbtin.725 8 October 2014 18: 58
        In any case, as in Donbass, they will not fire "hails" at each other. This is out of the question.

        We’ll wait and see. Who would have thought a year ago that there would be a full-scale war in Ukraine?
        1. Vitaly Anisimov
          Vitaly Anisimov 8 October 2014 19: 15
          Yes, Putin has muddied the whole world with referendums! But we have this association, and in the west "sprinkle salt on my wounds ... and don't tell me no ..)))) It's not for nothing that they have taken up arms against Russia with sanctions .. Now oil is being lowered in price (Obamka is trying .. ) they hope that, as in the 80s, the USSR was destroyed (due to the collapse of oil and sabotage) And now Russia is the same .. And do not hope, gentlemen! As Makar (gand ... n) sang "Let the world bend under us ... " bully
          1. persei
            persei 8 October 2014 19: 49
            Putin muddied? What about Kosovo?
            1. Mih
              Mih 8 October 2014 22: 34
              Putin muddied? What about Kosovo?

              Yes, that’s the question. No.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. FACKtoREAL
          FACKtoREAL 8 October 2014 19: 23
          hi I agree with you!
          "Where did the guy get his Spanish sadness .."
          and about the Spanish temperament and hot blood ... request
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. siberalt
      siberalt 8 October 2014 20: 33
      Do you think that the topic "Crimea has been selected" has already been "passed"? And here, out of nowhere, are the Donbass resistance. And there, as in Spain in 1939. World has gone mad? Quite the opposite. A new awareness is coming from the market madness. And then war is inevitable. And those who are for "all the pistols" will start. Stupid, but noisy, like chickens, are formed for "meat" for fratricidal wars to the death, for the loot of the elect. Is it really not clear?
      1. Mih
        Mih 8 October 2014 22: 32
        Stupid, but noisy, like chickens, are formed for "meat" for fratricidal wars to the death, for the loot of the elect. Is it really not clear?

        Stupid, but throaty like chickens are formed - are you about yourself?
        Givi, you are a good guy - fly on a turntable, transport chickens and cows. You are a happy man. You have a good wife and children - what do you need to meet old age? love
    4. Korvin1000
      Korvin1000 8 October 2014 22: 29
      The intelligence services of England made it so that less was voted for Scotland.
      And Spain will not be able to
      1. Mih
        Mih 8 October 2014 22: 38
        The intelligence services of England made it so that less was voted for Scotland.

        And you thought that the intelligent service loot just makes money? laughing
  2. Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 8 October 2014 18: 48
    That's about the shooting, they are very mistaken. It has long been proven that a raid of civilization flies in 6 seconds. And the more educated the population, the worse the educated and developed fantasy is richer and the arsenal of means is wider.
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 8 October 2014 20: 29
      Quote: Ruslan67
      educated and developed, the imagination is richer and the arsenal of means is wider

      And the caliber is bigger. yes
      Hi Ruslan! drinks
    2. Mih
      Mih 8 October 2014 22: 41
      It has long been proven that a raid of civilization flies in 6 seconds

      Flies, even as it flies. love
  3. Giant thought
    Giant thought 8 October 2014 18: 48
    Do not promise in advance, gentlemen. In life, there are such tricks that they did not have to think about them before, that this is possible.
  4. Dezinto
    Dezinto 8 October 2014 18: 55
    Indos probably already developed five scenarios on how to shake them. But apparently while others are busy. In Spain, there is no oil, but a glove compartment to arrange overseas is their favorite pastime. Need to rock,

    ... and yes, a touch of civilization can fly off, as we see, very quickly.
  5. 8 October 2014 19: 09
    "Option with shooting in Catalonia is excluded"

    And then in politics, "never say never."
    1. raf
      raf 9 October 2014 06: 29
      And then in politics, "never say never."
      Well, or as in the old Russian proverb: "Do not renounce your wallet and prison!"
  6. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 8 October 2014 19: 12
    The article seems to be nothing .... but where does Kevin Spacey? request A subtle hint of House of Cards intrigue? request
    FREGATENKAPITAN 8 October 2014 19: 29
    Kuma promised not to go to the bazaar ....... In Ukraine a year ago, no one even thought that Grad can be shot at cities ......
  8. dipqrer
    dipqrer 8 October 2014 19: 42
    The Ukrainian script a year ago was incredible.
  9. datur
    datur 8 October 2014 19: 45
    [quote = dipqrer] The Ukrainian script a year ago was incredible. - I fully support you !!!
  10. nik6006
    nik6006 8 October 2014 19: 48
    Maybe it’s worth it for real Ukrainians, newly-minted Europeans, to share their experience in pursuing their political will, to help there, or tell something about how tires burn well on the Maidan ... what is this wonderful fresh fragrance of freedom ...
  11. Denis fj
    Denis fj 8 October 2014 19: 55
    Mironenko contradicts himself. Then he says:

    There is a principle in politics: "never say never."

    then right there

    "I cannot imagine the solution to this issue in the traditional form:" Catalonia is an independent state ".

    In Catalonia, about 80% of the population stands for independence from Spain. Therefore, the concern of Madrid is more than justified. This is not Scotland, where there were approximately equal supporters and opponents of independence.
  12. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 8 October 2014 20: 05
    Oh no songs! We are not like that, we won’t shoot, all are white and fluffy, only Catalonia is not Spain, la la la. Do not have time to blink an eye ...
  13. Abbra
    Abbra 8 October 2014 20: 18
    Yes, nowhere and nothing is excluded! The world is changing before our eyes. And not for the better ... The author is like a person who is holding a cordless telephone in his hands and says that there can be no other phones in the next century.
  14. pvv113
    pvv113 8 October 2014 20: 41
    In any case, as in Donbass, they will not fire "hails" at each other. This is out of the question.

    Could anyone have thought a year ago that a real war would break out in Ukraine? hi
  15. siberalt
    siberalt 8 October 2014 20: 54
    To the editors. There something Weller blundered pistols on the subject, so that the Authorities would be afraid. Pull up the authors. I purely technically can not post my article on the site. There are many rules. Good luck to the authors!
  16. Committee
    Committee 8 October 2014 21: 11
    Ennobled nationalism ... well said, bravo! Fascism light.
  17. Evgeniy31
    Evgeniy31 8 October 2014 21: 41
    And in the meantime:
    The US Air Force F-15S fighter crashed during exercises in the east of Great Britain.
  18. Mih
    Mih 8 October 2014 22: 10
    This is common in Spain. This is her sore spot, a sore subject for the Spaniards - both mentally, and psychologically, and politically.

    I think, in my humble opinion, it's hemorrhoids. crying
  19. Mih
    Mih 8 October 2014 22: 17
    There something Weller blundered on the subject of all pistols

    As Colonel Colt said, the gun is an equalizer of chances. And what, Marshal - are you afraid? Is there anything to be afraid of? A coward cannot be an officer. I have honor. soldier
  20. Mih
    Mih 8 October 2014 22: 19
    Quote: siberalt
    Do you think that the topic "Crimea has been selected" has already been "passed"?

    Yes, we arrived, and you doubt it? Hello to you ... (Armenian joke).
  21. thinker
    thinker 8 October 2014 22: 46
    For the Spaniards, Catalans and Basques, all this is still fresh in memory and that is why they will in every possible way avoid confrontation.

    Who knows, Spain is a pretty hot country:
    Following the colleagues from Catalonia, the authorities of the Basque Country decided to hold a referendum on strengthening autonomy from Spain, up to complete independence. This was stated by the head of the region, Inigo Urgulyu. He stressed that the leadership of the region intends to hold a referendum on the establishment of an independent Government in the Autonomy.
    Thousands of residents of Madrid and other major cities of the country took to the streets and demanded a referendum on a new political system.
    "Spain will be a republic tomorrow," they chanted, waving flags with red, purple and gold stripes - the flags of the Second Republic, proclaimed in 1931 and liquidated eight years later by General Francisco Franco. (12.06.2014)
  22. Imperial
    Imperial 8 October 2014 23: 32
    Europeans were given a knee in the ass, what a pain))) The parliamentarians of the Asia-Europe Forum rejected the wording of giving the EU the status of a participant in the dialogue with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).
    Andrey Klimov, deputy chairman of the international committee of the Federation Council, who headed the Russian delegation at the eighth conference of the parliamentary partnership of the Asia-Europe Forum (ASEP), held in Rome, announced this to the journalists.
    "Representatives of the European Parliament tried to include in the final declaration a clause on giving the EU the status of a participant in the dialogue with ASEAN, but first Singapore, and then other states of the region opposed such a situation," said Klimov.
    According to him, European colleagues insisted on obtaining the status of a participant in the dialogue on the basis that the Russian Federation and the United States have observer status in this regional organization.
    "But unlike the EU and the Russian Federation, the US is a state, and the EU is a union of states, and both countries are members of the Asia-Pacific partnership. And not a single EU country has access to the Pacific Ocean," the parliamentarian said.
    He emphasized that all the amendments made to the text of the final declaration by the Russian side were adopted.
    The current conference, which brought together parliamentarians from more than 40 countries that make up the Asia-Europe Forum, was devoted, according to Klimov, to two aspects - the financial and economic situation in the world, taking into account modern challenges, and the topic of sustainable development in the context food security.
    In his opinion, ASEP is a platform no less interesting and productive than PACE. "Topics of a global nature are being discussed here, the participants want to hear each other, and not offer their supposedly correct point of view," Klimov said.
    Russia only takes part in the forum for the second time, after joining the organization two years ago.
    Parliamentary Partnership Conferences are held every two years and precede the Asia-Europe Forum (ASEM) Heads of State and Government Summit. The current ASEM Heads of State and Government meeting will take place in Milan on October 16-17.
  23. pok09
    pok09 9 October 2014 01: 30
    I have no idea who is good at this, but look what I found. This is an information base with materials about all citizens of our state, it is completely in open form walking on the network and anyone can use it. It would seem "well, let it be, I have nothing to hide", but the most frightening thing about this is that there is a lot of secret information.
  24. 33 Watcher
    33 Watcher 9 October 2014 03: 03
    [quote = datur] [quote = dipqrer] The Ukrainian script a year ago was incredible. - I fully support you !!! [/ quote]
    Yes, the Ukrainian scenario was likely for a very long time, they simply did not talk about it. All this has been going on for years ... how. Horseradish with her with Catalonia, Central Asia needs to be protected, they are laying a lid on me ... I don’t understand why the hell is the army for us, for parades or something? We surrender everything, accept defeat without war, surrender without a fight. Are you guys? What is going on in the government?
  25. Astor
    Astor 9 October 2014 05: 51
    Quote: Mih
    Putin muddied? What about Kosovo?

    Yes, that’s the question. No.

    Putin didn’t muddle anything! It has been muddied and muddied for over a hundred years. And Kosovo was the same muddy and bombed, but there was no referendum.
  26. Horn
    Horn 9 October 2014 06: 34
    Well, about shooting, I wouldn’t promise ... Yes, and the Basques can remember their dream ...
  27. Viktor Kudinov
    Viktor Kudinov 9 October 2014 07: 37
    And where, one wonders, is Spanish democracy if the free choice of the people is prohibited - together or separately! Such bans make independence even more attractive. And Catalonia, as a territory, is completely self-sufficient and can become a separate state at the level of Austria.