Military Review

OPK went for the Russian machine

50

The practical session on import substitution, held yesterday by the holding company “Stankoprom” (included in Rostec) at the Savelovsky machine-building plant, may allow representatives of Russian defense enterprises to take a different look at the domestic machine-tool industry. The event was a landmark, because now Western defense sanctions are driving the Russian defense industry more and more into the corner, and in our machine-tool industry there are, in fact, new items that many people simply do not know about.

Earlier, in the production of weapons, defense companies sought (and still do not mind) to use foreign equipment if it has no analogues in Russia. Not to mention high-tech civilian products, in which imports account for up to 90% capacity. As defenders did not previously resist import substitution, now, due to the threat of stopping some industries, this has to be done at a forced pace from the wheels. According to open data, now in Russia annually procured equipment for all industries for one billion rubles, of which Russian enterprises get the entire 100 million rubles.

Why sad defense

“Everyone already thought that the machine-tool industry in Russia had stopped developing, but now the sanctions came out and now the defense capability of the country will depend on how quickly we can go to import substitution and import,” the defense plant representatives said. Sergei Makarov, General Director of OJSC Stankoprom. “We understand that your task is to give the country high-quality and best weapons, but we will try to give you better equipment over time.”

In this regard, he asked the session participants to review their plans for technical re-equipment in favor of Russian machine tool builders. In particular, this was done recently by the Savelovsky Machine-Building Plant (SMZ) LLC, which has recently become part of the Stankoprom holding, one of the largest machine-tool enterprises in Russia for the design and manufacture of equipment for various industries, including aviation and space.

“We started an active technical re-equipment program this year, as we also receive a large percentage of equipment and components from abroad, so we need your support in the form of demand for products,” the situation explained. Ivan Androsov, CEO of the LPS.

It was noticeable that representatives of many defense enterprises examined the new machines without much enthusiasm, and some even with lean individuals.

“We already did this when the technical re-equipment program was launched,” an expert from an ammunition manufacturing company told Expert Online. - We bought an optical grinding machine at the Leningrad plant. But they installed the router in such a way that there were jumps, as a result a large percentage of the marriage was formed and it was impossible to work at all. We can not supply the army defective ammunition, it is excluded. It was necessary to incur additional expenses, to buy equipment in Taiwan, which works quite normally. ”

Leasing will help them

On the one hand, defense workers have nowhere to go, since it is “Stankoprom” that should be the government’s decision to become a single engineering center of competence for the introduction of the latest Russian equipment into production. The holding has already established new orders. Starting this year, defense enterprises receiving budgetary funds should be equipped with domestic equipment by no less than 10%. By the 2020 year - already at 60%.

On the other hand, in Russia over the past four years, thanks to the state program "Development of machine tools and tool industry for 2011-2016 years", over one hundred samples of new machine tools and high-tech carbide tool collection have been created, which are fully ready for introduction into mass production.

“We conducted a large analytical review of the bases for the purchases and orders of equipment by our enterprises abroad and selected the groups and types of machines that are most popular among them, which are presented here,” explained Sergey Makarov. - This is primarily grinding, threading machines, which are in short supply. Turning and milling, which will also focus on, are in great demand. Some are already represented here, some are in development or are being introduced into production. ”

Another thing is that industrialists, especially those who burned themselves with domestic equipment, or those who decided to follow the path of maximum efficiency and immediately introduced the most advanced machines, do not really want to experiment and incur additional costs. As one of the defense industry experts said, it’s like you are forced to replace a good new imported refrigerator with a Russian of the same quality.

“In principle, you can replace, you just have to spend money again, and the return from it will be the same, if not less. So here, we will replace it, but the accuracy in the metalworking will most likely be not two microns anymore, like on a European machine, but four. But once forced, it is necessary to switch to domestic, only productivity will be lower, ”said a representative of the defense enterprise.

In order to reduce such pessimistic moods, according to the machine-tool development subprogramme, funds were allocated for the creation of new R & D, that is, the search for new technical solutions that can compete with Western ones. In addition, five billion rubles are being allocated from the budget (10 will have to attract it themselves, from partners or banks) for the technical re-equipment of machine-tool builders. Finally, a leasing program should be an incentive for import substitution of defense enterprises. According to Sergey Makarov, it is now being finalized and will be launched in October.

Demand will generate new supply

An excellent confirmation of the fact that state support can give good sprouts is SASTA OJSC (Sasovo, Ryazan Region), which successfully participated in the Minpromtorg program to support R & D and mastered the production of the most popular machines. As a result, high-precision milling machines, numerical control lathes (CNC) and flexible automatic lines SASTA now work in Europe, the USA, Africa, and Asia-Pacific countries, as well as at the largest enterprises of almost all branches of the heavy and oil industries in Russia. Now we are designing new high-precision machines and preparing them for mass production.

“In general, import substitution has given us solid advantages. We took analogues of the world's leading factories and tried to do better than them, says Alexey Peskov, Chairman of the Board of Directors of OJSC SASTA. - Now we are waiting for a new round of development thanks to the sanctions imposed against the Russian defense industry. The number of orders in June was 30% for enterprises in the defense industry, and by the end of September it was already 70%. These are three pluses - the technical re-equipment that we carried out, R & D and sanctions - gave a powerful breakthrough in development. ”

Thanks to the program of technical re-equipment of the enterprises of the SASTA defense complex, the first turning machining center was launched in 2006, then it mastered the production of flexible production lines (robots), in 2010-m the first turning lathes with a digital operating system appeared, and in 2012 it was already started operation of an automatic line for processing Toyota body parts (Japan).

The increase in orders from the defense industry enterprises is also noted by other machine tool builders.

“Indeed, we have a growth in demand from the defense industry, so we hope that the sanctions will allow us to make another breakthrough in development,” says Valery Zuev, Technical Director of the Ryazan Machine-Tool Plant.

This company is one of the few in Russia that can make both new universal metalworking equipment and individual machines for individual orders.

Optimism is also experienced by the head of the SP Donpressmash service department (CNC bending presses, flexible automation) Andrey Kosenko, which also notes an increase in orders from the Russian defense industry.

“However, it’s hard to say that it is because of the sanctions that the demand for our equipment is growing, since we started producing new machines even earlier than we were seriously competing with the Japanese company AMADA (the world's largest manufacturer and supplier of equipment for cold sheet metal processing). Ed.). We have seriously strengthened our position in quality and service. “We also have counterparts of German machines, which are not inferior to them in quality and performance,” says Andrei Kosenko. “The growing demand allows us to move forward, now we are developing a flexible production line: the robot itself will submit the sheet for bending and send the product to the warehouse.”

No stuffing

However, machine tool builders are still far from euphoria: the complication of geopolitics may disrupt their plans for the production of certain types of equipment. Our machine tool builders are inferior to Western ones in the provision of their own components.

“We have to admit that we almost completely buy complex components in the West and abroad in general,” says Alexey Peskov. - We do not have good bearings, CNC systems, no ball pairs and control swings, hydraulics and other things - we still have to buy a lot in the West. If sanctions are imposed, for example, on bearings, then we will stop a lot. Those that we use in our machines are not yet produced in Russia. If the government decides on new investment projects in these areas, the situation will improve. ”

Therefore, the creation in Russia of joint ventures with leading manufacturers is still considered the most effective way to produce competitive equipment.

For example, the successful SP Donpressmash is a Russian-German joint venture established on the basis of OJSC Donpressmash with STS Pressentechnik GmbH.

“We haven’t received any signals from our partners that they will have to stop cooperation with us because of sanctions, it’s mutually beneficial,” Kosenko said.

Moreover, for the production of flexible lines (robots), this company also intends to enter into cooperation with one of the European companies with the condition of localization of production in Russia. (However, it’s not clear how things will go now).

Since there is little such cooperation, it is still more profitable for industrialists to buy some types of equipment abroad. Let's say the equipment of the world's leading machine builder DMG in Russia is now very few people will decide. But Valery Zuev believes that all is not lost.

“Yes, our company cannot compete with the same DMG right now, since the production of machine tools has not developed for almost 20 years in Russia. But on the other hand, the design base that has been preserved, for example, at our plant, will make it possible to partially launch the production of similar equipment in cooperation with other machine tool builders and in the presence of orders. Therefore, we hope that the sanctions and restrictions on the use of Western equipment in the defense industry will help us in this. With some state support, with the implementation of relevant additional R & D, we can commence the development of equipment of comparable efficiency with products of the same DMG. ”

Numerical laser control out of competition

Another weak point of the Russian machine tool industry (and not only) is the lack of a wide range of components. If in the production of armaments only Russian electronics is used (and not fully), then in the machine-tool industry, where the basis of success is new efficient CNC systems, everything is different.

“In terms of electronics, there’s really a big problem, we’ll deal with it seriously, we already have a program to set up and develop the inlet of Russian CNC systems,” says Sergey Makarov. - We intend to launch it by the end of the year, there are plans by the end of 2015 to create a new base of the Russian CNC, which could correspond to Western counterparts. There are a number of Russian systems, but in quality they are inferior to Western counterparts. We will create a CNC, which will also have a Russian element base - a processor, for example. ”

However, so far none of the machine tool builders of the Stankoprom holding interviewed have said directly that they have been denied the supply of CNC systems. Although some have admitted that their European and American partners, just in case, began to carry electronics for machine tools through Estonia and other Eastern European countries. It is precisely because, as a result, machines with this electronics are intended, inter alia, for enterprises of the Russian defense industry. But it is known that cases of direct refusal in deliveries are already in place with domestic electronics manufacturers, which means that numerical control in the machine tool industry also remains at risk.

“We use Siemens CNC at our milling center,” says Anton Shlyapkin, deputy chief technologist at the NPO Sterlitamak Machine Tool Building. - In principle, it is possible to change it to domestic systems, but it will not be such an efficient machine. If now, to change the configuration of work with detail, it’s enough, relatively speaking, to press a button, then with the Russian CNC for each such case you will have to write a new program code on forty pages. But we have already begun to look closely to domestic developers, because you never know what could be next. ”

In particular, Anton Shlyapkin and some other participants of the practical session at the Savelovsky Machine-Building Plant were extremely interested in the developments of VNITEP CJSC, which presented its metal-processing complexes with a fiber laser and linear synchronous motors. The competitive advantages of the Navigator machines (laser cutting with high accuracy and speed for any type of metal, even armored) can be listed for a very long time. In terms of performance, efficiency, energy saving, reliability and ease of use they have no equal in the world. Including due to the unique numerical control (and many other patents). The Navigator is already being shipped to Europe, now another batch is being prepared for shipments to the USA.

“In principle, there are analogues in the world, but they are copied from our patents, which I have long registered in Russia, because then I was doing this as a scientific hobby,” says the general director of VNITEP CJSC Alexey Korukov. - Competitors do not hesitate to say: yes, we used them, because they are not registered by international standards, which means you can use. But fiber laser technology and other unique machine solutions require fantastic CNC, which we have now achieved. The leading manufacturers of CNC came to us, offered their development. We say: put them on our machine, let's see how accurately it will work then. For some reason, they never returned. ”

Now VNITEP enters into cooperation with Savelovsky Machine-Building Plant, installing its own CNC on their machines, which improves the accuracy of metal processing.

“Our iron (mill - ed.) Is excellent, durable, eliminates the effect of vibration,” says Alexey Korukov. “At the exhibition in Hannover, we made a splash with such machines, the French competitors are drooling — they have no such iron.”

Western companies are ready to create joint ventures with VNITEP even now, despite the locked politicians. In Russia, the main customers of VNITEP are also private companies that can count money and value efficiency and productivity along with quality. But the sales volume of budget and near-budget companies from VNITEP is only 6% of the total. And this speaks of another problem of the Russian defense industry enterprises - their slowness. One may complain as much as possible about the shortcomings of domestic machine tools, but the elementary loss of the habit of looking for the very best, first of all in Russia, deprives them of additional possibilities, including the improvement of product quality. However, it is possible in the case of regular holding such sessions as at the LPS, it will allow our defense specialists and not only them to see the achievements of our machine tool builders. In particular, the same Korukov, it seems, has found new clients here. Sergey Makarov, in turn, suggested that the session participants create a council of chief engineers to search for the best options for import substitution.

Author:
Originator:
http://expert.ru/2014/10/3/opk-poshel-za-rossijskim-stankom/
50 comments
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  1. calocha
    calocha 4 October 2014 08: 57
    +17
    And who will work on the machines?! Personnel need to be trained-engineers, mechanics, technologists ... On ege, we are liquid .. we will get offended.
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 4 October 2014 09: 15
      +17
      Quote: calocha
      And who will work on the machines?! Personnel need to be trained-engineers, mechanics, technologists ...

      Yes, they cook, they cook. Don't panic. Soon it’s already 8 years since I left the plant (NPO Antey). I go there. The machine park was changed by 90 percent. The school at the plant works to its fullest, plus the training department at the plant itself, there are a lot of young guys. Fuck you get settled.
      1. calocha
        calocha 4 October 2014 10: 02
        +10
        Antey is not all of Russia! It is necessary to turn around within the country!
      2. IAlex
        IAlex 4 October 2014 16: 16
        +1
        Is it Almaz-Antey?
        1. calocha
          calocha 4 October 2014 19: 20
          0
          Yes, it seems.
        2. pensioner
          pensioner 4 October 2014 20: 12
          0
          Quote: IAlex
          Is it Almaz-Antey?

          Yes. OJSC MZiK.
          1. IAlex
            IAlex 4 October 2014 20: 39
            +1
            With the one that is located at Leningradsky Prospect, 80, a huge building of the Soviet era, I worked on one project. I did not see production facilities, but I had a student from 2009 - 2010 from there, saying that he personally worked with an ancient drilling machine, in which the program was written on punched tape ... crying
            1. pensioner
              pensioner 4 October 2014 22: 35
              0
              Quote: IAlex
              With the one located at Leningradsky prospekt, 80

              No. Cosmonaut 18, Yekaterinburg ...
            2. studentmati
              studentmati 5 October 2014 22: 48
              +3
              Quote: IAlex
              he personally worked with an ancient drilling machine, in which the program was written on punched tape.


              And what's so terrible? American shuttles, up to the last (not extreme) start, were also loaded from 5 inch disks.

              Honor and praise to machines operating over 50 years. But for Russia already arrived the time of industrialization of the XNUMXst Century!
      3. bmv04636
        bmv04636 5 October 2014 13: 58
        +1
        it has already been written here that, for example, in 2014, the IEMZ Izhevsk Dome will allocate 1,5 billion rubles to modernize production, although the plant has been well equipped with machine tools over the past years. In addition, young factory workers participate in the young family program (this is when the company, the republic and the federals repay interest on the employee)
    2. Wad
      Wad 4 October 2014 11: 41
      +8
      1 Technician - mechanic or electrician of the Soviet technical schools, these are 5 current engineers.
      1. IAlex
        IAlex 4 October 2014 16: 09
        +3
        It is even useless to compare them. Now 99% of engineers are just maintenance staff or extremely highly specialized specialists stamping something somehow ...
        1. Terner38
          Terner38 4 October 2014 17: 18
          +3
          I will say more - those themselves do not have education as a current one (there is an economic one, I graduated from the evening department), but I was lucky, I studied for the 3rd - 4th grade OFFICIALLY! walked and studied in the distant 90-93 years from ordinary Soviet engineers. So, with this my meager knowledge + almost 25 years of work experience makes even just a conversation with young "specialists" uninteresting.
          1. IAlex
            IAlex 4 October 2014 18: 19
            +4
            Even before 2000, there were a lot of old specialists in research institutes, factories and institutes, so it would be possible to learn something.
            Now, almost all literate pensioners are retired, there are a lot of like trained students, and some kind of crook is crooked, as a result of which there are wild deadlines, sky-high cost, and constant breakdowns ...

            Now the most zealous patriots will probably begin to grumble at me here, but it just hurts and offends me that such a situation has developed in industry since the topic is extremely close to me, and the saddest thing is that the light at the end of the tunnel is not visible, whatever they say on the box ...
            1. peter mechkaev
              peter mechkaev 7 October 2014 00: 23
              0
              The situation is much worse than we can imagine. 80% of the machine-tool factories of the former USSR no longer exist ... destroyed. The vocational schools where the machine operators were trained have practically ceased to exist. And the current technical specialists, new specialists, were only seen buying and selling when studying at universities. When dealing with such a remake it becomes scary for our industry.
        2. bmv04636
          bmv04636 5 October 2014 14: 09
          0
          in vain you know so many who not only understand the iron and brains, but if necessary, can become a machine tool and produce products. We also have a technologist at the machining centers, he will not only draw up the optimal program, select a tool, but he himself can work behind the machining center.
    3. Juborg
      Juborg 4 October 2014 19: 25
      +2
      Workers can be found (attracted), trained, etc., but who can guarantee that domestic machines will be the same (or at least no worse) Taiwanese !? Who can vouch? I think not who. For good reason, an example was given with a machine with an improperly installed router, and I think there are not one such examples in the country. As a doctor, I will never work with our (so to speak!) Electronics, because I don’t want to go to jail. You take and see how many times a year ordinary ordinary laboratory centrifuges are brought in for repair, I’ll answer, on average, 2.5 times (these are statistics!) And imported one once, here you have all the arithmetic. At my department five years ago, portable domestic pulsimetry devices lasted 1.5 months, then they were written off, although the warranty did not reach the repair time, but they could not be repaired (and they were afraid to breathe on them!)
    4. sergnow
      sergnow 6 October 2014 09: 25
      0
      Yes, in vain, you are so! There are normal guys, they are ready to study and work, but the salaries in the factories are not very interesting, and if there are salaries, then mere mortals, even with seven spans in their forehead, can’t get there!
  2. erased
    erased 4 October 2014 09: 20
    +5
    A collapsed industry, a training system and a lost continuous line of transfer of experience from veteran workers to beginners will go around for a long time to come. And the farther, the more, because no real steps are visible to return all this to normal.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 4 October 2014 09: 33
      +2
      Quote: erased
      no real steps are seen to return all this to normal.

      Well, there are such steps, and to be completely invisible, it is impossible to say.
      But at the same time, as rightly noted in the article, targeted investment programs are needed, not speculators buying shares in the secondary market.
      Programs are public and mixed and private, but direct investment.
      Among other things, a fairly complete import substitution will take years, but for now it is necessary to develop more "programs" - programs to bypass Western sanctions through third countries and programs to oust the dollar from foreign trade in national currencies, gold, barter, etc.
      1. Shur
        Shur 4 October 2014 12: 41
        +3
        And also to remove the agents of enemies, issuing the developments of the dawn of the 60s for "nanoinnovations". This grandiose red-haired mu named "chuba" should have been below the surface for a long time.
    2. IAlex
      IAlex 4 October 2014 16: 14
      +1
      And obviously, it won’t be especially ... For something to be desired and at least an understanding of the problem, those who are entrusted with this business have long been accustomed to pretending to buy normal things abroad for a lot of money, plundering the budget, and then their cheeks blew from their pathos . YES, and people will not already be sweating with this, it’s easier to push cars for normal headstock than to suffer every three years with advanced training, retraining, constantly torment with solving problems, while getting less or the same ...
    3. Suhow
      Suhow 5 October 2014 18: 24
      0
      Something needs to be started, and even if it wasn’t immediately possible, they began to fly into space with the Union, the atom began to be tamed. Yes, it’s not all simple, but a strong industrial industry is one of the pillars of independence and state power, I’m glad that Russia understands this even through sanctions. that it still doesn’t reach ours, buy-sell mainly ...
  3. pinecone
    pinecone 4 October 2014 09: 41
    +1
    Until the thunder strikes, the man will not cross himself. You can recall the fried rooster.
    1. demel2
      demel2 4 October 2014 13: 53
      +2
      Thunder struck yesterday, and Chubais is still there.
  4. MaKeNa
    MaKeNa 4 October 2014 11: 35
    +2
    The main trouble is that our manufacturers got hooked on the western one and believed that it would last forever! And here are the sanctions, and even now they are still hoping, and if they manage, it will be reluctance to support the domestic machine tool industry.
  5. sv68
    sv68 4 October 2014 11: 54
    +4
    without a mat it’s normal and I won’t express myself by fucking your leg. in my native Rostov-on-Don, a bearing factory dies - out of almost ten thousand hard workers there are a few hundred left. Overwhelming majority of hard workers who are over 50 years old. Why do not they try to reanimate the enterprise. During the Soviet era, they worked there for the Moscow Region releasing bearings for bempershek ... we need serious sanctions and for a long time, maybe then we’ll get rid of it and start creating an economy from scratch.
  6. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 4 October 2014 12: 01
    +3
    Our manufacturers got hooked on the West from hopelessness - once, and from the inability to resist Western lobbying - two. But machine tool builders are swinging for a long time, they should receive money for development from sales, but they are not. Vicious circle. And especially dangerous are bearings and electronics. Without this, there will be no precision machines.
  7. Shur
    Shur 4 October 2014 12: 33
    +2
    It is even glimpsed that both are dependent. The same CJSC "VNITEP" use the CNC "DELTA TAU" USA, and why? Like a bunch of water. Only a statement of reality. If all the manufacturers of the military-industrial complex united and created an association of machine-tool building and, as a result, a joint concern, then yes, and so the chatter of those drowning in the same boat. And those who also turn up their noses there would generally think that tomorrow they can get up without their own CNC. which they did not bother to create on the "hostel". Ie, I'm sorry too generous - "screwdriver" you guys, with a greater or lesser share.
  8. Egor65g
    Egor65g 4 October 2014 13: 13
    0
    It would be very interesting to compare Russian CNC control systems with Western ones. Do not share the links, dear smile
    1. IAlex
      IAlex 4 October 2014 16: 44
      +1
      No, we will not share it, since I have been trying for a year with chemists, physicists and engineers to develop an industrial robot, we still cannot find a normal mathematician to complete the mathematical model of positioning the robot in space ...
      1. Egor65g
        Egor65g 4 October 2014 17: 48
        0
        You want to say that Russian management systems do not exist? What about Russian CAM-CAD programs?
        1. IAlex
          IAlex 4 October 2014 18: 01
          0
          There is one common one, called Compass and Lira, the rest that I met were created before you left for Israel, well, or right after ... laughing
          Most of them use SolidWorks and AutoCad for designing buildings and objects, despite their cost ... We used Mentor and Altium for circuitry because there are no options ...
          1. Egor65g
            Egor65g 4 October 2014 18: 10
            0
            I worked back in the union, and not CNC smile I have already mastered CNC processing here.
            1. IAlex
              IAlex 4 October 2014 18: 15
              +2
              I can honestly say on my own that making a machine or a robot in a few years is not a problem, the problem is to compensate for the lack of knowledge by other people, and the level of education in 90 - 2000 was so low that the carcasses are light, it’s hard to find people ...
              1. anomalocaris
                anomalocaris 5 October 2014 09: 47
                +1
                Yeah. Very difficult. Especially a specialist and a salary of 25 ...
                Wake up! In Russia now you can't spit, there are as many management personnel at the enterprise as there are workers. And this is at best. The directors are dazzled in the eyes, and after all, the director's salary is still not comparable with the salary of a worker, but where can he feed them all? At the same time, as a rule, the only way to reduce the cost, which is used at our enterprises, is to reduce the wages fund in every possible way, our "managers" are not capable of anything else purely physically.
                1. s.melioxin
                  s.melioxin 5 October 2014 17: 12
                  +1
                  +100500, and mentally too.
                2. The comment was deleted.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Zuborez
          Zuborez 4 October 2014 19: 32
          +3
          Like dirt of all kinds of CAD.
          Moreover, they are now from dispatching and storage modules to SAMs for various types of processing.
          And all in one package.
          Well, the execution is "who studied what" (c).
          And about how much it costs, torrent to help bully
          All break the local craftsmen)).
          In the aviation industry-NX, moreover, they use the license where they met it.
          At MAI, the Solid Works course with manuals)).

          Domestic-Octopus, Adem (your help in sales laughing ), Compass with CAM modules, Gemma. These are those that work without dislocation of the user's brain.
          Many specialized SAMs for laser-plasma cutting, erosion, etc.
          1. Egor65g
            Egor65g 4 October 2014 20: 29
            0
            Well, how are Russian compared to the same Solid Works?
            1. Zuborez
              Zuborez 4 October 2014 20: 55
              0
              Solid steers, it is intended)).
              But Compass, for example, is good because it fully complies with GOSTs and ESKD.

              That is, the model is in Solid, and the picture is already in Compass.
              Unigrafix is ​​too confused for me.

              And we have such a weight - "Teflex". This is not for "average" minds. laughing
              But they sell it)). True, they buy one, but others try to work and suffer.

              OFFTop: Iskar is not going to go bankrupt there?
              1. Egor65g
                Egor65g 4 October 2014 21: 02
                0
                Quote: ZuboreZ
                Iskar is not going to go bankrupt there?

                Yes, it seems the other way around, expanding. Last year I went there to present a new line. The plant is impressive. They, by the way, with solidcom и simatron muddied a joint project about choosing a tool straight from the catalog - very convenient. Prices they certainly bite smile
                1. Zuborez
                  Zuborez 4 October 2014 21: 20
                  0
                  I hate it)) Over the past 2-3 years, so much quality has fallen, it’s already terrifying. Moreover, if you take (it happens) through European dealers, it’s kind of normal and works. And if through a local representative office ...
                  Not every plate will reach the end of the workpiece.
                  And at prices, on the contrary, 10-15 percent relative to the same Walter or the Japanese are cheaper. But there is no durability. As the 907 alloy was removed, so the "third grade" went.
                  I really wanted to go to the Mossad to throw laughing
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 4 October 2014 21: 32
                    +4
                    Quote: ZuboreZ
                    Over the past 2-3 years, so much quality has fallen, it’s already terrifying. Moreover, if you take (it happened) through European dealers, it’s kind of normal and works. And if through a local representative office ...
                    Not every plate will reach the end of the workpiece.
                    And at prices, on the contrary, 10-15 percent relative to the same Walter or the Japanese are cheaper. But there is no durability. As the 907 alloy was removed, so the "third grade" went.

                    This is a global trend - in pursuit of cost reduction, they choose what is cheaper. A good example is the German auto industry ...
                    Open-hearth steel has sunk into oblivion.
                    1. anomalocaris
                      anomalocaris 5 October 2014 09: 52
                      0
                      Open-hearth steel has sunk into oblivion

                      And thank God. It’s a very dirty and inefficient process. Modern metallurgical technologies make it possible to obtain metal much better and at lower cost.
                  2. Egor65g
                    Egor65g 4 October 2014 21: 39
                    0
                    I don’t know, I have no complaints about them. For aluminum, I only use their tool. I prefer iron Hanita, but coped with Iskar’s milling cutters. Maybe you have something with the modes?
                    1. Zuborez
                      Zuborez 4 October 2014 22: 12
                      0
                      IMHO, local Iskarovtsy got carried away with "marketing". And lumel cut everything.
                      They tried to make fun of the modes, but without any fantasies, I drove the technologist’s guide.
                      Just the lower limit. They promised to bring the catalog a year.
                      At the moment, they can not withstand their stated durability in tests.
                      But in general, there is no sadness. Now there are plenty of competitors in there, there are plenty to choose from. Plus Sandvik imposed sanctions on himself laughing Swedes are such Swedes).
                      1. Egor65g
                        Egor65g 4 October 2014 22: 44
                        0
                        Let your management file a complaint. Some kind of garbage comes out, they sell around the world and seem to be in demand.
                      2. wanderer
                        wanderer 6 October 2014 06: 10
                        0
                        Zuborez3 I work at Iskar if you tell me more precisely what problems I can find out, and it can be of help))
                      3. The comment was deleted.
          2. IAlex
            IAlex 4 October 2014 20: 53
            0
            Just wonderful, especially such a powerful statement pleases. I wanted to get through to a friend she works at Sukhoi Design Bureau on this issue, but her phone does not answer. Please tell us about domestic CADs that you really use in your development of manufactured equipment. And I’ll clarify the question either tomorrow or after tomorrow ...
            1. Zuborez
              Zuborez 4 October 2014 21: 12
              +1
              On Sukhoi license NX.
              Himself recently taxied crying
              And according to our CAD-well, Compass, practically everything, regardless of the industry, is used. Although 3D modeling is somewhat confused there. But the GOSTs outweigh. The frame is there, the stamp ... The leadership is still "poisoned" by the Soviet higher laughing
              And so, to directly design ...
              Almost everyone has graphic modules, in the same Compass a calculation of strength, centers of mass.
              Kinematics seem to be there too, but incompatibility with their own previous versions of files is depressing.
              I am not a real welder, I feel closer to the SELF (CNC).
              I use SolidWorks myself, and if CD is required, Compass. ESCD- "our everything" laughing
              Everything depends on the complexity of the product. The water tap is one, the T-50 is the other.
              1. IAlex
                IAlex 4 October 2014 21: 21
                0
                I was just a little surprised by your previous post, because you wrote like that - in Russia there is everything!

                But no matter how much I looked for wiring boards of normal means, only Americos (Mentor and Altium).

                For buildings - the French and Americans (Solid and AutoCAD).

                For calculations - Siemens (for example, the same T-FLEX and NX).

                The only thing that pleases is that if they refuse to sell, then you can buy a license for 100 rubles.
                1. Zuborez
                  Zuborez 4 October 2014 21: 31
                  0
                  I am an amateur in electronics. Well, there PNP-NPN in theory I understand a little more. And I distinguish a diode from a transformer)).
                  Quote: IAlex
                  The license will be bought for 100 rubles.

                  Torrent to help. There is everything.
      2. Roman 11
        Roman 11 4 October 2014 20: 06
        0
        Quote: IAlex
        we still can’t find a normal mathematician in order to complete the mathematical model of positioning a robot in space ...
        There are institutes of mathematics, I doubt that mathematicians have transferred ........ especially in the era of the Internet.
        1. IAlex
          IAlex 4 October 2014 20: 55
          0
          No, of course, and I have familiar mathematicians from Moscow State University, but obviously, if it is impossible to find a normal mathematician in a research institute or in an enterprise that develops electronic equipment, then something is clearly wrong.
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 5 October 2014 09: 56
            0
            The salary is wrong.
    2. Zuborez
      Zuborez 4 October 2014 19: 12
      0
      Balt systems. Fourth place in Europe (St. Petersburg so humorized).
    3. Zuborez
      Zuborez 4 October 2014 22: 16
      0
      Quote: Egor65G
      It would be very interesting to compare Russian CNC control systems with Western ones. Do not share the links, dear smile

      Take a look at Balt-Sistems. All of our leaders.
      1. Egor65g
        Egor65g 4 October 2014 22: 47
        0
        I looked. It seems that everything is still in DOS? Not kosher already fifteen years smile Are there fanuki?
        1. Zuborez
          Zuborez 5 October 2014 01: 08
          0
          Zero fanuk-super. Respect. The best of Heidenhain took, but ISO 7bit fully supports.
          IMHO for milling - the type of the above is optimal. And the operator (adjuster) can stir up "for the house, for the family" on the counter. And there are no special problems with posts.
          And Leningraders are kosher at the price-result.
          Better than Siemens 810 in any way. We also have a bunch of machine tools with NTs ****, and even such dinosaurs are found that everyone has already forgotten about, including manufacturers.
          Normally their rack is on Vladimir machines.
          But when upgrading from fanuk, siemens and Balt-Systems, it is St. Petersburg's design that is optimal.
          Not that the smartest, they just rent the machine, not the rack. Although some unconscious turners complain about them)).
          And Dos-not Dos. Siemens (shopturn, schopmil) the presence of Windows does not save. Luck in fact and security officers should be suspicious. Yes, and the processors in the racks there are clearly not for games laughing
          There are a lot of fans, different. We’ve got two Korean machines with zero, really, really. So far, according to the book, commissioning has taken a little time.
          The Mafia is deadly immortal)).
          Good luck to you.
          1. Egor65g
            Egor65g 5 October 2014 08: 52
            0
            Thank you smile And good luck to you.
  9. Fibrizio
    Fibrizio 4 October 2014 14: 52
    +1
    Quote: calocha
    And who will work on the machines?! Personnel need to be trained-engineers, mechanics, technologists ... On ege, we are liquid .. we will get offended.


    Here are the engineers, we are even more or less staffed. But these people do not make the product themselves. It is produced by workers. Which must be experienced. Without them, the plant cannot be launched. And then there are none. Because fools for 11k work not very much. You need to start with this.
    1. IAlex
      IAlex 4 October 2014 16: 34
      +1
      A modern product is a complex thing, it is made by many applied scientists, engineers in various fields, chemists, physicists, mathematicians, and various workers. To make a plane or a rocket, you need a bunch of precisely qualified employees with theoretical and practical skills, and who can play as a team, and not hell knows who bought a diploma from some strange sharaba ...
    2. calocha
      calocha 4 October 2014 19: 21
      0
      I agree! They desperately need vocational schools !!!
  10. lotar
    lotar 4 October 2014 15: 20
    0
    Recently, I talked with several specialists related to one or another machine tool industry, so they say that all the equipment is not only foreign in origin, but the equipment that is manufactured in Russia actually only has their label. In cases, if not all, the majority of machine tools have their roots in China. Whether it is true or not, I would like to believe that the current sanctions will give impetus to the development of machine-tool industry of our production.
    1. Zuborez
      Zuborez 4 October 2014 19: 36
      0
      Well, most of the imported machine tools have the same Chinese or Taiwanese roots. European people have "over-optimized" a lot of things in recent years.
      And from the American machine guns, too, hieroglyphs climb.
  11. Steel loli
    Steel loli 4 October 2014 16: 34
    +1
    This year we started an active program of technical re-equipment, since we also get a large percentage of equipment and components from abroad, therefore, we need your support in the form of demand for products, ”Ivan Androsov, general director of SMZ, explained the situation.

    Sadness is sad. The shoemaker then turns out to be without boots.

    Although this is in any case a disastrous matter, talking about any machine tool industry now, in the midst of a financial crisis in the country. Previously, it was necessary to do this when petrodollars flowed and the horizon was calm. And it’s not just one defense industry - in terms of equipment for pharmaceutical production, we are also 90% dependent on Germany itself.
    1. Zuborez
      Zuborez 4 October 2014 19: 59
      +1
      It is not the first year that Savelovo has been buying up its machines in the former Soviet Union as scrap metal, then out of three one collects and talks about "innovative" achievements.
      And Donpressmash with its "listogibs with an elephant" has been trolling at exhibitions for several years laughing . I can not pass by).
      The Turks are doing better, but in due time it’s great
      equipment did.

      The Germans also fell in love. The quality fell very much. The same machines from the DMG company usually only work for half the fleet)). Plus a one-year warranty. I met their processing center, which could work out for 250 hours without problems. Moreover, it costs one train. .
      And next to them are theirs "Maho" 1983-87 and are not going to die.

      In general, the domestic machine tool industry was destroyed by professionals, and I can’t imagine how to restore all this in a reasonable amount of time.
      Although there are exceptions (the same "Technique" of Vladimir).
      And bulbashs, even though they do not grab stars from the sky, but they produce a wide range of metal-working equipment and do not stand still.
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 4 October 2014 22: 00
        +1
        Quote: ZuboreZ
        And bulbashs, even though they do not grab stars from the sky, but they produce a wide range of metal-working equipment and do not stand still.

        We cooperate with the Germans and other world machine tool builders, but every year we have more of our people in machine tools and it’s easier with our staff.
        1. Zuborez
          Zuborez 4 October 2014 22: 28
          +1
          Well done. Belarus produces a lot of things (such as machine tooling) that Russia has already forgotten how it looks. So we buy systematically. And it complies with GOSTs, and at a humane price. Although there is an unpleasant exception. Plus the Customs Union).
          At the end of October we will have a thematic exhibition.
          Yours must bring a lot of things. In that year, the Minister
          brought laughing
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 6 October 2014 00: 17
            +1
            Quote: ZuboreZ
            At the end of October we will have a thematic exhibition.

            Almost all of our manufacturers have new products, I hope that there will be demand.
  12. wei
    wei 4 October 2014 17: 38
    +3
    Honestly, it all reminds me of trips to the country on weekends
    arrived and in 1.5 days it is necessary to do what normal people do without rushing, measured in a week
    how many do not bother next time all one return to chaos
    a planned economy is good if you follow the implementation plan
    and minimizing management leads to increased responsibility (no career warrior just work)
    I mean, in the USSR there was little to manage, unlike the managers of which were abundant
    until the number of managers transfers to quality, we will receive the best projects in the world for unique projects that have no analogues in the world ...
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 5 October 2014 10: 04
      +1
      Well, you obviously did not find the USSR. Now there are an order of magnitude more managers than in those memorable times. And so much time is spent on solving the question of time and nerves that in captivity you will think: do I need it?
  13. rennim
    rennim 4 October 2014 20: 13
    0
    Now re-equipment will take place ... and again forward for sale in private hands.
  14. NAPOLEON
    NAPOLEON 4 October 2014 20: 15
    +1
    our machine tool industry lagged behind as far back as 80 years old. Our factory has a Soviet five-coordinate coordinate. Old-timers say it couldn’t start, refused to work
  15. Roman 11
    Roman 11 4 October 2014 20: 58
    0
    You can leave everything as it is for now, but ALL state-owned enterprises of the defense industrial complex and other areas are obliged to use domestic equipment at 10%. Why is this necessary? The answer is simple - for breaking human nature, until everything is good, no director moves, money flows into your pocket ....... If we don’t use our machines, then in this area there will be no development at all - i.e. they will not even be able to compete with the Japanese. A supporter of the elasticity of the approach - the choice of priority areas of development - for example, machine tools for the production of bearings, CNC turning and milling groups. In general, to develop all areas, although somewhere - for example, in laser processing there will be a noticeable traditional lead. Of course, this step will affect the profitability of enterprises, but will serve as an incentive for directors to organize requirements for improving the quality of Russian machine tools. In turn, this may prompt the government to financially support these programs. Where can I get funds for this ?? Very simple, you need to reduce the military production program by 20-25% for 2015! There is an understanding that the army needs rearmament, which is already late ......... but this delay of 1-2, maybe 3 years, will only bring benefits - an additional impetus to development, which means the sovereignty of the domestic machine tool industry - without which there will be no production! Otherwise, water will not flow under a lying stone - it is necessary to move not only vertically, but also from below, so that the teams themselves and their directors are interested in this ........ most importantly, to achieve the result, it is necessary to achieve concentration of all interests.
    1. Zuborez
      Zuborez 4 October 2014 21: 26
      0
      Quote: Novel 11
      their directors were interested in this

      So far, according to my observations, there is interest. Especially when mastering FTP.
      It's just that she is familiar with another.
  16. Dragon-y
    Dragon-y 4 October 2014 21: 36
    0
    At the beginning of industrialization, DIP machines were produced. What, are we going to repeat the experience?
    1. Zuborez
      Zuborez 4 October 2014 22: 35
      +1
      But DIPs are still working. He is a universal wagon. Moreover, their working areas are rather big.
      In general, DIP is the first domestic machine with an individual drive. At that time, a huge step forward.
  17. A_Alex
    A_Alex 4 October 2014 21: 44
    0
    Already pleased that the machine tool industry is alive and even gives new machines! Although it seems that they do not know them in universities and rub the students that imported is better than ours! The article is a fat plus!
  18. Dmitry Toderes
    Dmitry Toderes 4 October 2014 23: 10
    +2
    The authors correct the annoying mistake.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 5 October 2014 01: 36
    +2
    I had a chance in my life, three, THREE engineers could not set up one computerized machine, but before that the debacle managed to give me a lecture on the importance of the last point in the machine program (an absolutely unnecessary artifact, it only took time for a smoke break), so here I am (half a year of training in the absorption of alcohol in the company of more experienced adjusters) he established this unfortunate, tortured machine in just an hour (they turned the ego specifically), and then he trained engineers for a week on entrusted equipment and in one great theory pumped up from them, which still helps me. Engineers are not always bad, just many of them do not have the practice of working on real equipment. My opinion on this problem: every future engineer must work at least two or three months in a simple workplace.
    Once he worked at "Alpha", in the section of transistors.
  21. 1-ST Engineer
    1-ST Engineer 5 October 2014 02: 45
    0
    I’ve said it many times and I’ll repeat all the best developments that were stolen from the Russians. Take the world patent problem in Russia before. Germany just stole all inventions, but now we don’t have the same patent and will not have it in the near future because there’s no royal will - and officials are slaves that take the thieves from them .....
  22. Karampax
    Karampax 5 October 2014 05: 58
    +4
    I don’t know who is going to rake these Avdeyev stables, created during the reign of Gorbi-Yeltsin-Medvedev, but for 11 years of work at the plant I have firmly mastered .... pi ... do not turn sacks! We have more managers at the plant and all kinds of engineers than hard workers, and if something happens, they turn not to their knowledge, but to the knowledge and experience of the "old" workers. Moreover, managers often do not have practice, and if there is education, it is not specialized and even then it is probably purchased. Wages are miserable, all young people look at the shoulder straps of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Emergencies, thieves in the army, in general, where there is less work and more dough. There are not enough medical workers, teachers too, 11 smart guys came to the plant, it was in my section where I worked for 4 years. The personnel "hunger" at the plant among the workers (electricians, Kipovtsy, adjusters, locksmiths, welders, milling operators, etc.) is quite large and they cannot close it even now !! I don’t know about the Antey diamond, at the fraternal aluminum plant in particular, and in the city as a whole (Bratsk), the situation is exactly the same. And the neighboring cities are not very much better, so everyone leaves here. Apartments are getting cheaper, although there are two huge city-forming enterprises Braz and Blpk in the city. For those who think that the chef-style comment is all gone, come here and show how to live here, and especially how to raise the industry in such conditions.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 5 October 2014 10: 10
      +1
      I agree. Kuzbass, Novokuznetsk.
  23. JonnyT
    JonnyT 5 October 2014 09: 02
    +3
    there is no machine tool industry, because there is no element base !!!!! there are few of their controllers (I've only heard about ARIES - it’s not suitable for all tasks), stepper motors, drivers, sensors, where are Russian-made ???? no! (((..... but what is there, well, excuse me, the accuracy is not the same, the quality is defective (Mechanical parts: Chinese bearings, hydraulics, I am generally silent about the quality of metalworking. I met high-precision metalworking only in Voronezh, and then in its infancy .... how can you assemble your machine, if there are no parts for it ???? - this is the main problem, and the rest are solved. There are smart people now, programmers, design engineers, sleeve turners, competent assemblers .. ..but there is no element base (.....
    P.S. Has anyone encountered the products of the Chinese company Delta? (Controllers, servos, drivers, etc.) ???? Does it make sense to develop cooperation with them?
  24. Watchman
    Watchman 5 October 2014 20: 37
    +2
    Good luck to you brothers!
  25. wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 5 October 2014 23: 45
    +1
    Do not panic.
    What Russia does not have, we must begin to produce ourselves. Serviceable non-old imported equipment does not make sense to change urgently.
    Let it work for itself, for the good of Russia. That's when the need arises to replace it by age, then yes it makes sense to replace it.
    And while it works, it is necessary for its industry to start producing high-quality bearings and other components for equipment, while there is time, with the task of surpassing Western companies in creating advanced equipment. To us in line stood behind the machines, etc.
    This is a pretty profitable business, if you invest serious resources and resources in it, then you can profit from the created one for a very long time.
    1. studentmati
      studentmati 5 October 2014 23: 58
      0
      Quote: wanderer_032
      In the meantime, it works, you need quality bearings for your industry


      By bearings, we have always been ahead of the rest, if that?

      Quote: wanderer_032
      To us in line stood behind the machines, etc.


      Unfortunately, I do not have such facts.
  26. anomalocaris
    anomalocaris 6 October 2014 10: 59
    0
    Quote: studentmati

    By bearings, we have always been ahead of the rest, if that?

    You are more than mistaken. Needle bearings were made only in East Germany.
    1. peter mechkaev
      peter mechkaev 7 October 2014 00: 28
      0
      You are mistaken ... Samara did no worse.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 8 October 2014 16: 13
        0
        Worse and much. GDRovsky bearing went at least twice as much as Samarsky ... Although if you worked in the military industry, it is possible ... All the same, there the selection was very strict.
  27. Prager
    Prager 3 November 2014 13: 25
    0
    It is high time to revive the domestic machine tool building, like other branches of machine building. and it should be entrusted to experienced industrialists, not "effective managers".
  28. mehmeh
    mehmeh 19 December 2014 23: 14
    0
    Our government has no idea of ​​a new industry. there are working companies and what. volume no market no sales. billion rubles is a laugh. to booklets on innovation. the state has spent more exactly