Military Review

Schmeisser in Izhevsk

36
Schmeisser in Izhevsk


“The city’s population treated prisoners differently. Some of them felt sorry for them and even fed them; others, having lost loved ones in a war, hated them. There were cases of beatings of the Germans. ” © Sergey Selivanovsky, "Germans in Izhevsk".

The final article on Schmeisser was actually ready on August 17, only the work on the ending remained. But in the process of working on it, I became interested in the personality of Dr. Werner Grüner - as a complete and positive antithesis of the personality of Hugo Schmeisser. In the morning of 18, I went to the museum stories Izhmash. The director of the museum, Aleksey Alekseevich Azovskiy, provided me with materials on the history of the motor-plant, which produced an experimental batch of Kalashnikov assault rifles. They had to shoot them, in addition, there were questions about the personality and life story of Werner Grüner and his children. I would like to receive information on them from Galina Arkadyevna Kovalyukh - a leading engineer on scientific and technical information. She showed me a book about Gruner and, while I was looking at it, I took a folder out of the closet. “There are materials on Gruner here,” she said and handed me a folder. When I looked at the documents that lay in it, I realized how Schliemann felt when I unearthed my Troy. There were copies of documents related to the work of German specialists at the Izhevsk Machine-Building Plant! I realized that all my final article can be replaced by publications of only one document from this folder. But do not disappear the same good. I decided to leave the article as it was written, with a small addition at the end.

So, here is the article.

I wrote an appeal to the Kalashnikov concern with a request to give an opportunity to search the archives for documents relating to the post-war stay of German engineers at the Izhmash plant. In response, the concern announced that it was refusing to keep factory archives at all, and the state archive of Udmurtia announced that it had no place to store this archive.

In the story of the debunking of the myth of the gloomy Teutonic genius, who secretly invented the famous weapon in Izhevsk dungeons, not enough fat points. Indeed, there is no convincing information about what the German gunsmiths at Izhmash did. The only well-known document of that era — a characteristic of Hugo Schmeisser, signed by the deputy director of personnel, Mukhamedov, was declared a fake by the forces of evil. It turned out to be impossible to get access to the Izhmash archives, well, and to find machine drawings with the signatures of Schmeisser or Grüner there - all the more.

But the stuff does not sink, but the truth emerges. True, not always where you expect it.

A Canadian researcher with a Scandinavian surname Folke Myrvang (Folke Myrvang) has released a two-volume book “German universal machineguns”, dedicated to the German machine guns from MG08 to М3. Let's pay tribute to Myrvangu - just a huge amount of photos, enough textual information. The excavations are deep enough, for example, information on the Czech light machine gun under the intermediate cartridge «Rapid» 8 mm.

Well, since the German machine guns, then, of course, MG-42 - the best machine gun of the XX century. If MG-42, then its author is Werner Gruner. If Gruner, then Izhevsk, and therefore, Schmeisser. And a stack of drawings!

Ordinary citizen of the Russian Federation, the archives of documents of his native country are not available. At best, your request will not be answered. At worst, they will declare the elimination of archives. But documents of historical value, you can find in the vast network or in the books of Western researchers. All of them are published anonymously, without specifying where and how the author got access to the original and where the original is now. This is understandable, otherwise this anonym would have problems, if not with a criminal code, then with an administrative code, well, or just flew out of work.

Let's go back to the subject. In addition to the drawings in Myurvang’s book, documents from the personnel department of Izhmash have surfaced in the network. Most likely they were made from the book by Norbert Moczarski “Hugo Schmeisser: zwischen Tabu und Legende”, and they were brought to the Mosharsky not without the help of the famous journalist Ilya Shaidurov. Anyway, let's look at these documents.

The first document is “General Characteristics of Foreign Specialists at the Department of the Chief Designer of the Plant No. XXUMX”.





So, the Germans worked on the instructions of the Technical Directorate of the Ministry of Weapons from 1946 to 1948. The assignments were carried out in January 1949, and according to the results of the work there was a message to higher authorities. It would be interesting to see both the task itself and the report itself. Maybe children or grandchildren will not see them in foreign sources, but will find original documents. In the meantime, since January 1949, “a group of specialists is used in ongoing work, such as: designing devices, devices, equipment upgrades, etc.” and, if the characteristics of most Germans are “highly qualified.” ”, Then with respect to Hugo Schmeisser it is said directly -“ he refuses design work ”. Of course, as I already wrote, Schmeisser didn’t have any “devices” or “equipment upgrades”, except for weapons, out of his head, unlike Volmer. Even on an empty stomach.

Now Schmeisser's letter of March 1947 of the year, when the plant’s management for the refusal of design work established the corresponding salary.





We are interested in one moment. This one: “As an inventor, I have many patents. ... In the field of automatic pistols in the German army, my design MP-18-1 / Bergmann / s 1918 of the year is known. ” Hugo! But what about Stg-44 or, at worst, Mkb-42 (H) ?! Not a word. I found only one Schmeisser patent related to the sturgevever. This is the patent for the ejector in the Stg-44 shutter. Perhaps, not all patents are still digitized and laid out? But, you see, in such a letter - and not to mention the merits of the “founder”, “predestinator” and “forerunner” of the era of assault weapons under the intermediate cartridge, it is more than strange!

After reviewing the drawings in the book by Murvang, it becomes clear what the task of the technical management of the Ministry of Armaments was. The Germans developed the entire line of small arms - from submachine guns to machine guns. I'll give Kurt Horn a job. His machine gun is well known to the readers of the magazine “Kalashnikov” (No. XXUMX / 9) in the article by Yuri Ponomarev “The Automatic Horn”.



Most likely, it didn’t come to realization of this automaton in the metal. Yuri Ponomarev writes about successful trials of captured weapons. But the Kalashnikov assault rifle has already been adopted, and the work of Horn is now only of academic interest.

According to the report, after the development of the weapon line, the Germans switched to smaller works. For example, such:



Do not fidget in the chair. Better pay attention to the width of the store. This is just another attempt to apply the four-row arrangement of cartridges in the store. According to Dieter Handrich, this was attempted to be realized even in 1944, at the company of Hanel. Schmeisser was no longer a technical director and was not engaged in the design. He was a simple "director of the company Hänel". On the scan there is a magazine cover without a feed mechanism and, most importantly, without a mechanism for rebuilding a four-row feed into a two-row outlet. Schmeisser in his shop, rearranging the cartridges from two rows into one, hit the wacky position. What to say about the rebuilding of the four rows in two. Patents of the sea, as always, introductions zero. Therefore, when the concern announced the creation of an 60-charging store, this could only be regarded as the super genius of its engineers or the complete arrogance of one who throws such claims.

Not. About Schmeisser I have not forgotten. Here is his work in the framework of the technical assignment of the technical management of the Ministry of Armaments:



This is a submachine gun variant "zvi." Apparently, there was another option "ince". Combine this with the letter of Schmeisser, in which he does not mention his merits in creating a sturmgever, but emphasizes his authorship in MP-18 / Bergmann /. Compare the level of execution of the sketch Schmeisser with a sketch of Horn.

Well that's all. There remained the lyrics in relation to Mosharsky, Shaidurov, Myurvang and a mysterious countryman with a non-Russian surname - Simonenko, who handed over to Myrvang scans from the drawings of the Germans. Where are these drawings now? Why is the main argument, knocking out the last support of slanderers and liars who are trying to defame the pride and glory of Russian weapons, has not yet been presented in the same Kalashnikov museum? Why is there no access to the materials that tighten the hinges on the throats of the detractors of the history of the Fatherland, such as Ruchko? Why does Murwang, Mosharsky and many others, having such obvious evidence, continue to draw bagpipes about some mythical German participation in creating the best weapons of the 20th century?

References:

Folke Myrvang, "German Universl Machinenguns, Volume II. From the MG08 to the MG3 », 2012.
Dieter Handrich, Sturmgewehr 44, 2008.
Norbert Moczarski, "Hugo Schmeisser: zwischen Tabu und Legende".

The end of the article.

So, 18 August 2014. Here is a copy of that document from the folder that Galina Arkadyevna unfolded in front of me.



What can be said about this document? Schmeisser did not disappoint when he said that he "gave the Russians some advice." As you can see, the plant director and party organizer confirm these words. The “c” clause is an obvious mistake. It is necessary to read: “the design of the shop for the 1891 rifle was developed.” Well, the point "g" - a draft design of a submachine gun, which we have already seen at Myurvanga.

This is one of the fifteen characteristics that were issued from the factory at the request of the MGB in September 1951. Now compare the amount of work performed by Hugo Schmeisser and the amount of work performed by Karl Barnitske:



Impressive? So the draft machine gun option "Eins" was found.

Perhaps that's all. Children and grandchildren do not have to dig up artifacts, proving that the German designers had nothing to do with the best weapons of the twentieth century. So much the better. Find yourself a more interesting topic.

Thanks to those whose precious time I used:
- Alexey Alekseyevich Azovskiy - Director of the Izhmash Museum,
- Kovaluh Galina Arkadyevna - the engineer of the NTI of the same museum,
Selivanovsky Sergey Nikolaevich,
- Lobanova Margarita Vladimirovna - teacher of Izhevsk industrial technical school,
- Michael aka stannifer,
- Timofeev Andrew,
- Natalia Kulikova.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Hu of, Herr Schmeisser?
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  1. Stas57
    Stas57 25 August 2014 09: 20
    +3
    Ordinary citizen of the Russian Federation archives of documents of his native country are not available. In the best case, your request will not be answered. At worst, they generally declare the liquidation of archives. But documents of historical value, you can find in the vast network or in the books of Western researchers. All of them are published anonymously, without specifying where and how the author got access to the original and where the original is now. This is understandable, otherwise this anonymous author would have had problems, if not with the criminal, then with the administrative code, well, or would just have flown out of work.

    Workers in TsAMO, RGVA and so on laugh in the voice ..


    But in any case, the author thanks a lot for the work.
    Ps. And Hugo is a typical manager.
  2. bunta
    25 August 2014 09: 45
    +12
    Big greetings to those laughing at TsAMO from Izhevsk. No matter how much I tried to contact these "neighing". Know yourself laugh. Well, let them laugh further.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 25 August 2014 10: 15
      +3
      Big greetings to those laughing at TsAMO from Izhevsk. No matter how much I tried to contact these "neighing". Know yourself laugh. Well, let them laugh further.

      in journalism it is impossible to write normally, in journalism it is necessary with anguish, with hysteria, with a squeal.
      in journalism it is impossible to write - "We could not get access to the factory / city archive, the TsAMO refused us, citing secrecy, in such an archive there were no necessary cases."
      In journalism, as the second oldest, it is customary to chop off one’s shoulder
      Ordinary citizen of the Russian Federation archives of documents of his native country are not available point.

      Favorite thesis Rezun and corned beef, so keep five.


      ps. I’ll tell you a secret: there’s such a gunman, Ulanov, he surprisingly takes out documents, even when he is abroad, and writes books.
      PPS I’ll open the second secret, there are people who are happy to help get the necessary documents, but for you they are hidden by the darkness of time and the fog of mystery.
      but the juralist doesn't give a damn about it, and you're a journalist, right? not even by profession, in spirit?
      1. bunta
        25 August 2014 10: 33
        +8
        Quote: Stas57
        But you are a journalist, right?

        Well, thank you. Flattered.
        I do not do "journalism". My bread is programming. And I can only spend my time on schmeissers and answers to "advanced commentators" like you, only in my free time from my main work. But for some reason, neither the "journalists", nor those who were obliged to do this by duty, have still not bothered to present the documents to the public, once and for all suppressing any speculation about the alleged participation of German gunsmiths in the creation of the AK. If the documents of the Izhmash archive "were available to an ordinary citizen," this article would not exist. And all sorts of speculations about the great Schmeisser too.


        1. Stas57
          Stas57 25 August 2014 10: 57
          -2
          I do not do "journalism".

          I clearly wrote
          but the juralist doesn't give a damn about it, and you're a journalist, right? not even by profession, in spirit?
          .
          And I can only spend my time on schmeissers and answers to "advanced commentators" like you, only in my free time from my main work.

          Well ?
          moreover, all historians in our country are engaged in history on their own money, and the Institute of the History of the Great Patriotic War sucks males on a stick for people's money.

          But for some reason, neither the "journalists", nor those who were obliged to do this by duty, have still not bothered to present the documents to the public that once and for all suppress any speculation about the alleged participation of German gunsmiths in the creation of the AK.

          frankly, I thought that this was such a debated question (that AK was not Sturmagever, and that Hugo was in Izhevsk, but Kalashnikov in Kovrov) and that only freaks believe in this nonsense, that there remains only the question of the general participation of him. specialists in working on Soviet weapons, but excuse me, is this a disaster? I don’t see the problem in this, just as there is no problem of the German trace in the Soviet missile program, but the American one in the nuclear one.
          Who knows at least a little about the topic, and liberal freaks still can’t prove anything.

          If the documents of the Izhmash archive "were available to an ordinary citizen," this article would not exist. And all sorts of speculation about the great Schmeisser too.

          that is, is the Izhmash archive to blame?
          then why this deception and stuffingOrdinary citizen of the Russian Federation archives of documents of his native country are not available.
        2. Stas57
          Stas57 25 August 2014 11: 14
          +2
          yes, once again, just in case, I’ll clarify, the author Andrei Kulikov (bunta) did a great and necessary study.
          it is only about attitude to archives.
          1. bunta
            25 August 2014 11: 42
            +2
            Quote: Stas57
            author Andrei Kulikov (bunta) did a great and necessary research.

            drinks
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 25 August 2014 10: 36
        -1
        Quote: Stas57
        The ordinary citizen of the Russian Federation does not have access to the archives of documents of his native country.

        It seemed to me, or do you really want to open all the archives of our country for public viewing, and first of all for our enemies?
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 25 August 2014 10: 45
          +1
          It seemed to me, or do you really want to open all the archives of our country for public viewing, and first of all for our enemies?

          it seemed to me, or you don’t know, that we have had so many archives open for 10-20 for years, and TsAMO, for example, works directly with the Germans, not to mention that all 90s from archives and special stores are documents for very little money they went over the hill.
          Good morning, as they say.

          ps. Excuse me, but are the search units working primarily with the same TsAMO your enemies? OK. and write it down)
          1. inkass_98
            inkass_98 25 August 2014 11: 36
            +1
            Quote: Stas57
            it seemed to me, or you are not aware that we have a lot of archives open for 10-20 years

            It’s just that someone doesn’t know that there are statute of limitations on secret archival matters, after which you can get open access to them and (EVEN) publish them.
          2. Boris55
            Boris55 25 August 2014 12: 45
            -1
            Quote: Stas57
            ... and not to mention the fact that all 90 documents and archives from the archives and special guards left the hill for very little money ...

            In the 90's there were many traitors, but this does not mean that you need to stand in their ranks.
            90% of the population will not read boring archival documents and even more so analyze their contents.
            As for the search squads - do not put everything in one heap.

            ps
            All states of the world have their secrets. Do not deprive us of the opportunity to have ours.
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 25 August 2014 13: 22
              +1
              As for the search squads - do not put everything in one heap.

              at the moment, put you in a heap, moreover, completely illiterate and not knowing the topic at all, dragging some kind of mythical our enemies.
              The main contingent of the same tsamo-80% is the search engines.
              The second most independent historians such as Isaev, Shein, Ulanov and so on.
              None of them will be given a case with the "secret" status.
              Most likely, none of them will be given cases not in Chechnya, Afghanistan, Angola, Vietnam and Korea. Yes, they dig WWII.
              According to the Second World War, there are no problems for enemies, because part of the documents can also be found not in the federal archives.

              Although yes, a terrible desire to close everything and everything, this we passed, ended with Rezun.
              А our enemies and so we have already bought up in 90

              ps
              All states of the world have their secrets. Do not deprive us of the opportunity to have ours.

              yeah, and then we have to fight with Kalashnikov’s authorship with a fight, just because the secret mission of Hugo in Izhevsk seemed to someone.
              Paranoia should be controlled by the appropriate services.
          3. miv110
            miv110 26 August 2014 09: 34
            0
            If it was only about archives! The entire patent base is available to the foreigners and they rummage through it as in their own pocket! Direct treason!
  3. seregatara1969
    seregatara1969 25 August 2014 09: 59
    0
    sorry little work for us
  4. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 25 August 2014 11: 19
    -1
    Auto RU:

    Not only Hugo Schmeiser was taken to Izhevsk, but all of his design
    company: all engineers and technicians. About 10 people. Whether there is a
    their list and information, what did they do?
  5. bunta
    25 August 2014 11: 37
    +5
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Not only Hugo Schmeiser was taken to Izhevsk, but all of his design
    company: all engineers and technicians. About 10 people. Whether there is a
    their list and information, what did they do?


    Not. In total there were 15 or 16 engineers in Izhevsk, with members of the 33 families. Of these, six children attended the 22 school. Weapon engineers were six people:
    Barnitske - Simson
    Betzold-Gustav Werke
    Shink - -Gustav Werke
    Schmeisser - Hanel
    Grüner - Grossfus
    Horn - Grossfus

    Information about what they did is in the description for everyone. Two of them are in the article.
    Unfortunately, the drawings are only those that are from Mürvang.
    But there is still interesting material. Now a theme is emerging about Werner Grüner. There the topic of the Germans will be revealed in more detail. Be patient.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 25 August 2014 14: 50
      -1
      Hugo Schmeiser had a family business in
      weapons design based yet his
      father? He himself was the owner-director.
      Actually, we were engaged in design work
      his subordinates. Therefore, it is interesting that they
      developed in Izhevsk.
      1. bunta
        25 August 2014 15: 56
        +1
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Hugo Schmeiser had a family business ...


        http://topwar.ru/40021-hu-iz-gerr-shmaysser.html
  6. Tyumen
    Tyumen 25 August 2014 12: 50
    +3
    There is already so much chewed-chewed on this subject. And riot-thanks for the article.
  7. Major_Vortex
    Major_Vortex 25 August 2014 12: 51
    +2
    Today, only a complete zero in the topic of small arms can write that the AK was ripped off from Sturmhever 44. Not a single detail of the general, the designs are completely different. They are united only by a gas outlet, weakened in comparison with a rifle cartridge with a shortened sleeve and a detachable magazine for 30 rounds. True, the authorship of these "innovations" is also not at all among the Germans, but among the Russians and Americans.

    The Germans in the Second World War, without a twinge of conscience, developed their new small arms based on the captured Soviet one - also a fact. The Germans without Soviet self-loading rifles would have fought until the end of the war with Mauser rifles and submachine guns under a pistol cartridge (again not a German development).

    PPSh and PPS-43, by the way, also tore the German MP-43 like an ace warmer. Until now, PPSh is used by the American army in hostilities, the 21st century. And MP-43 is only gathering dust in museums.
  8. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 August 2014 13: 29
    0
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    PPSh is still used by the American army in hostilities, 21st century

    This is where the Americans use PPSh in hostilities? With entertaining shooting soldiers from captured PPSh you do not confuse?
    1. Major_Vortex
      Major_Vortex 25 August 2014 13: 55
      +2
      With a collimator and a NATO body kit - this is clearly not a trophy version already. At least "upgraded" smile :
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 25 August 2014 17: 59
        0
        The upgrade is to winding the wire handle and Eoteka - awesome!
        1. Major_Vortex
          Major_Vortex 25 August 2014 19: 48
          +2
          Quote: gross kaput
          The upgrade is to winding the wire handle and Eoteka - awesome!


          Your monitor screen is dirty. The base for the sight there is pretty seriously donelaughing
  9. Major_Vortex
    Major_Vortex 25 August 2014 13: 50
    +2
    Quote: DesToeR
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    PPSh is still used by the American army in hostilities, 21st century

    This is where the Americans use PPSh in hostilities? With entertaining shooting soldiers from captured PPSh you do not confuse?


    Colt's American M-4 carbine in Iraq has shown extreme inefficiency. But PPSh-41, on the contrary, in the midst of hostilities feels like a fish in water smile :
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 25 August 2014 14: 53
      -2
      M-4 - an excellent rifle, lightweight, very accurate. Compare with the AK-74 - you can still.
      There are pros and cons.
      But with PCA ... stop
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex 25 August 2014 16: 21
        +2
        And in the conditions of Iraq proved to be a complete G. ... This is not a dusty war weapon. Hunting self-loading carbine, not a combat automatic weapon.

        Israel at one time bought a license for the Finnish Kalash and developed Galil on its basis. The Tavor is also not based on the AR-15. What's good for hunting isn't always equally good for a real war.

        According to the SCAR program, announced by the US Special Operations Command, the Belgians far outstripped the American in terms of reliability in dusty conditions and their rifle was adopted at the end of 2007 by the special forces:

        ... For testing, 10 weapons samples of each of the systems were selected. Before being placed in the dust chamber, the weapon was greased abundantly, plugs were installed on the trunks, and the covers of the extraction windows were closed. Weapons in the chamber for
        30 minutes was under the strong influence of dust, after which 120 shots were fired from it. After the first 120 shots were fired, the weapon was again placed in the dust chamber, and after 30 minutes the next series of 120 shots was fired. These operations were repeated before a total of 600 shots were fired. After that, the tested samples of weapons were rubbed and subsequent lubrication. Then the process of dusting and shooting of 600 rounds in series of 120 shots was repeated again. After firing every 1200 rounds, the weapon was thoroughly cleaned and lubricated. The test process continued until a total of 6 shots were fired from each barrel.
        The most obvious result by which competing assault rifle models were compared was the number of delays during shooting recorded during the tests. According to this indicator, the places among the assault rifles were distributed as follows:

        XM8 - 127 delays;
        Mk16 - 226 delays;
        HK 416 - 233 delays;
        M4 - 882 delays.

        In the case of the M4, 643 delays were caused by failures in the ejection of spent cartridges and 239 delays were due to interruptions in the supply of cartridges from the magazine. It can be noted that according to the American classification, delays in shooting are divided into three categories: 1st — to eliminate which the arrow takes less than 10 seconds; 2nd — also eliminated by the shooter, but for more than 10 seconds and 3rd — when the delay cannot be fixed on the spot and the intervention of a gunsmith is required.


        According to the text: Mk16 is a Belgian rifle, the winner of the competition, later called FN SCAR 16, M-4 is M-4 smile
        1. bunta
          25 August 2014 16: 44
          +3
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          And in the conditions of Iraq proved to be a complete G. ...


          A month ago, I had the first and only time in my life shooting from AR-15.

          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          239 delays occurred due to interruptions in the supply of cartridges from the store


          There was no delay. Immediately failure due to feed failure.
          After the arch took SVD. Sang a song. fellow
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 25 August 2014 16: 59
          0
          "Before being placed in a dust chamber, the weapon was subjected to abundant lubrication" ////

          Stunned? M-16 is running dry. No grease.

          Neither the M-16 (starting from the 80s), nor the M-4 have any special problems with dust.
          If dropped into liquid mud, yes, it will fail. Failures were unrelated
          with sand or dust, but 99% were solved by jerking the shutter.
          We served with the M-16 in wild dust, when the tanks moved nearby were like dumplings.
          The amphibious brigade in Israel is still with the M-4 - they like it.
          1. Klim2011
            Klim2011 25 August 2014 22: 48
            +2
            Stunned? M-16 is running dry. No grease.

            An interesting statement, if it is possible in more detail about the operation of the mechanism "dry"
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 25 August 2014 17: 55
      +1
      Before you write nonsense about PPSh that the Americans in Iraq use at first, you would ask what it is and why it is, this topic was voiced more than once at weapons forums, so it’s been a long time since it’s been scared.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 25 August 2014 22: 19
        +1
        Well, as I understand it, the same specialists as the whirlwind were bombarded? Well Duc at least have the courage to voice what's wrong?
  10. serge siberian
    serge siberian 25 August 2014 19: 21
    +1
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    PPSh and PPS-43, by the way, also tore the German MP-43 like an ace warmer. Until now, PPSh is used by the American army in hostilities, the 21st century. And MP-43 is only gathering dust in museums.

    The performance characteristics of the PPSh are higher, the reliability is the same. The MP could fall and even shoot at the same time ... no fuse. Yes and dirt was more afraid of the PPS. The PPS in speed was inferior to the PPS by 200 shots and made it of metal completely.
  11. Yura
    Yura 25 August 2014 21: 54
    0
    Andrey Kulikov (bunta) Well done !!!
  12. Lyton
    Lyton 26 August 2014 04: 57
    0
    I also liked the article, read it with pleasure, but for stasa57 I want to say, before you sneer at you, you would also pick up on the topic of gunsmiths, and we would read it through enlightenment, write "Who knows at least a little in the subject and so knows" is not necessary , give out something like that, we all know how to criticize.
  13. smershxnumx
    smershxnumx 26 August 2014 08: 17
    +1
    I enjoyed reading the article. The author argued and confirmed his position with documents. Well done! Green !!!