Protection crews of combat vehicles

Tencate has developed lightweight wheel arch protection that will give the Panhard PVP protection conforming to 2a Level

Protecting the crew from detonation on mines or roadside bombs entails much more than just protecting the hull of a car pierced by shrapnel or burned by a melted stream of shaped charge. Even if the body of the car remains intact, the acceleration that the human body must sustain in the event of a blast from below can have fatal consequences.

Contrary to popular belief, the most important point is not only in the explosion itself. In fact, a higher probability of loss occurs after the victim is thrown into the air by an explosion when the car falls to the ground, which is often called “tossing”.

In addition, another major danger is represented by “secondary projectiles” in the form of objects that are in the habitable compartment and fly around freely when detonation occurs. Not only is the human spine at risk, but also the neck and legs. The table included in the article shows the limitations imposed by the Stanag 4569 standard.

According to Stanag, the levels of mine protection are determined by a number indicating the mass of the explosive and the letter “a” indicating the mass of the explosive ”under the wheel,“ b ”under the bottom of the machine (a much more dangerous situation); six, eight and ten kg of explosive equivalent, which corresponds to the levels of 2, 3 and 4. As a rule, an approximate calculation (exceptions only confirm the rules) shows that 7,5 tons of vehicles usually have 2a / b protection level, 11 – 12 tons of 3a / b and 15-ton machines are above 4a / b.

Blast wave dispersion is proportional to the third degree of the distance between the mine and the bottom of the machine; this means that the distance of the blast energy decreases by a factor of eight. This shows how very difficult it is to protect a light car with low ground clearance compared to heavier and higher cars.

Understand correctly

The standard solution adopted by most designers of machines is a V-shaped bottom, which, at an angle of about 20 °, reflects the energy of the blast wave. Not only does this increase the resistance of the bottom of the machine compared to the flat form, but it also reduces the acceleration caused by an explosion under the floor. The standard constructive technique is the maximum possible rapid and volumetric "purging" of the blast wave and, therefore, minimizing the energy transfer to the crew compartment.

Similarly, the wheels and / or hubs should be designed to separate in the event of a mine exploding, and its wheel arch and wing should help to release the maximum amount of blast energy under the entire structure. The front axle should also be pushed as far forward as possible.

Another decision made on some machines is to separate the chassis and the habitable compartment, for example, the Ocelot 7,5-tonne machine from Force Protection Europe, for which the 3b anti-mine level is claimed. The BAE Sysems RG41 also has an internal body that is connected to an external one by means of elastic ties. As for the 12-tonne Nexter Aravis and the declared level of protection 4b, its ground clearance gives it a level of protection that is higher than that of machines of the same mass class.

Israeli company Rafael has developed protection solutions for Universal Engineering Ranger 6x6

IBD Deisenroth has developed new armor solutions that provide a significant increase in the levels of protection of light armored vehicles, for example, Iveco LMV

Armor

In addition to the aforementioned general design rules, armor solutions, which guarantee the integrity of the bottom and sides of the machine at the bottom, will certainly come into play. Numerous companies have developed armor solutions specifically to protect vehicles from mines explosions, their goal is to stop the kinetic or chemical energy, as well as absorb it as much as possible.

The German company IBD Deisenroth provides numerous car manufacturers with armor solutions, which for the bottom of the car consist of neutralizing mines and IEDs, and may include a combination of these technologies. The concept of this company AMAP (Advanced Modular Armor Protection - advanced modular armor protection) includes numerous products and technologies. For example, the protection obtained by combining the Amap-M, Amap-IED, Amap-B and Amap-SC technologies, respectively, against mines, IEDs (improvised explosive devices), ballistic and cumulative attacks; These solutions provide solutions tailored to the diverse needs of customers.

With the fourth generation of its products, IBD has moved into the field of nanomaterials. At the same protection levels, the mass of nanoceramics is approximately 30% less; similar figures also apply to high-strength nitrogenous nanometric steel when compared with conventional armored steel. Progress in aluminum-titanium alloys improved their ballistic properties and in this respect brought them closer to the ballistic properties of ceramics, providing cost-effective armor solutions.

The Swiss company Ruag has developed a number of mine action solutions, including Minepro armor plates, which were adopted to enhance the protection of the Leopard 2 MBT

Numerous car manufacturers began to create their own seats, softening the effect of the blast wave, in the photo as an example the new seat installed in the Iveco LMV

These new materials were shown at Eurosatory 2014 on Iveco LMV, which increased its ballistic protection to the 4 level and its mine bottom protection and under the wheel, respectively, to the 2b / 3b Level and 3a / 4a Level. IBD provides armor solutions for Iveco, Renault, Patria, Rheinmetall and other manufacturers of military equipment.

The latest armor products from the Israeli company Plasan Sasa are based on composite materials; This company creates innovative solutions in the field of aluminum alloys, as well as the concept of multi-level explosion control. These technologies were used for additional booking kits for the MTVR truck from Oshkosh Defense and include composite metal armor sets to protect against kinetic energy and the effects of fragmentation and a special mine protection kit.

Another major program concerns Mrap categories I and II machines from Navistar; according to her, the concept of the “complete hull” made it possible in parallel to produce armor sets in different factories and, therefore, quickly deliver thousands of sets. This experience has proven its worth in the production of over 8000 armored kits for the Oshkosh M-ATV.

Seats from Vital Seating Systems include a system for maintaining the blood circulation of personnel who remain seated for a long time.

French Panhard PVP in Afghanistan. Most of these cars were additionally booked by Tencate with the prospect of further upgrades.

Energy absorbing seats in the AMPV car from Krauss-Maffei Wegmann-Rheinmetall

In addition to its solutions for the Israeli army, Plasan Sasa also participates in other foreign programs, such as the Australian Hawkei. This is a Thales Australia offer for the Land 121 program. The 3 Stage, for which Plasan Sasa provides intelligent armor technology that includes steel alloys, aramid fibers for internal anti-splinter pads, and ceramic embossed armor to provide easy, multi-shock protection against high-performance armor piercing ammunition.

The blast protection is built into the hull and the whole drive and chassis system has been packaged to simplify and optimize the blast control system. For air transport, the Hawkei kit is removed and installed again in 30 minutes by two people, which allows you to reconfigure the machine according to the threat level.

Tencate, a specialist in composite materials including fibrous and ceramic materials, offers its anti-mine solutions Armourtex BL to improve the integrity of weaker areas. They allow minimizing the deflection of the bottom and sides of the machine with increased resistance to mine fragments.

Designed for installation on existing machines, the Armourtex BL system can be incorporated into the design of the machine at the design stage. The armor solution from Tencate was made by Panhard for the Petit Vehicule Protege (PVP), which is in service with the French army. For the PVP machine, it provided the 2a Protection Level (see the first photo). Armourtex BL was adopted to enhance wheel arch protection with an increase in the mass of the entire 21 kg per niche. Currently, there is a program to increase the protection of the bottom of the PVP to the Level 2b.

Tencate focuses on upgrading light vehicle protection solutions and allows armies to operate their vehicles in high-risk areas. Tencate will soon begin a program for the general defense of the VAB machine of the French army; At the Idex 2013 trade show in Abu Dhabi, the company showed Armourtex BR, which is an effective defense against “shock core” charges.

Armorworks has developed the patented Shockride system, which has no moving parts and allows you to adapt it to the amount of load in accordance with customer requirements.

Energy-absorbing seats with Blastech technology from Jankel. Jankel seats are widely recognized in Britain and overseas and are offered for some competing JLTV machines. The company's product line includes a bottom-mounted seat for supply vehicles and aft seat for combat vehicles; headrests and armrests become standard solutions

Ruag Land Systems has developed a lightweight, easy-to-install, resistant to explosions and projectiles such as a “shock core” armor plate with an intermediate floor, including dynamic retention sleeves for torsion shafts that protect the machine and its crew. Minepro provides the highest levels of protection available for tracked vehicles from high-explosive and shell-forming charges (impact core). This technology has been selected by many armies to protect newly developed combat vehicles.

In accordance with the call to upgrade the car in order to ensure the highest safety priority of its crew, Ruag also remodels all the internal equipment, including the installation of modern seats. With its experience in protection, modern modeling, with well-equipped laboratories and ground test sites, the Swiss company can create and test comprehensive mine action concepts for all types of vehicles.

The Israeli company Rafael worked on many Israeli and foreign machines, both at the stages of creation, and taking part in modernization programs. The company has invested a lot of money in understanding the most dangerous characteristics of mines, roadside bombs and charges of the “shock core” type.

The experience gained in numerous programs for booking and upgrading Mrap cars was used in the Ranger machine manufactured by Universal Engineering, which was shown at the DSEI 2011 exhibition as an 19-ton 8xXNNXX version. Rafael was responsible for the design of the crew capsule, which has a unique solution to prevent the penetration of the blast wave into the capsule through the steering wheel column, the seats were also modified by the manufacturer according to the Rafael specifications and the special mounting of the internal equipment.

Additional reservations can be made at the request of the customer, Rafael guarantees mine protection that far exceeds the standards of Stanag, while the machine can withstand an explosion under the bottom two or three times more powerful than the one expected under detonation corresponding to the 4 Level. The booking kit includes all types of materials, from ceramics to fiber materials and steel, the latter being specially manufactured to Rafael specifications.

According to the Israeli company, all the booking kits supplied by Rafael to various consumers in recent years have proven to be effective on various battlefields.

BMI specializes in machine gun mountings and mountings as part of the Gunners Protection Package, designed for Mrap machines. BMI's arrow protection seats guarantee energy absorption and prevent the shooter from being thrown out of the car in the event of a rollover.

Sitting in limbo

The key component of eliminating the effects of acceleration on the human body caused by the explosion of a mine is the seat. Energy-absorbing seats are becoming standard in armored vehicles; Various decisions were made to reduce the effects of acceleration on those sitting inside the car.

In order to maximize the flexibility of the seat manufacturers offer fixing solutions to the bottom, sides and roof, although the latest cars usually have seats attached to the roof or sides; some manufacturers even prefer to avoid any tight connection to the chassis. Detaching the feet from the bottom is a solution that is becoming standard in order to reduce the number of injuries to the legs, while more and more head restraints are equipped with side airbags to minimize lateral movements. Multipoint quick-release fastening systems have also become standard.

Materials used:
www.armada.ch
www.forceprotectionsolutions.com
www.jankel.com
www.vitalseatingsystems.com
www.military-today.com
www.universal-eng.com

Comments

[Archikah]

The elevator system is the easiest to manufacture and maintain. And of course it would be better to mount it on the bottom. This is in terms of serving (because I had experience). Attaching to the ceiling is of course more logical - but more expensive (in the manufacture of the machine), and most importantly more difficult to maintain. Otherwise, the direction is understandable - only the power of ammunition is growing exponentially, and the means of protection are more likely in a straight line.

[bmv04636]

It is necessary not only to develop passive resistance to mines and landmines, but also active defense to suppress and detect mines and landmines

[wanderer_032]

The NATO customers forgot to indicate in the statement of work that each airborne landing chair should be equipped with a catapult and an integrated dry closet.
They strengthen the bottoms ... they put some kind of mutaten on the torsion bars ... In a word, digitized ...

And let's look at the situation when a BM gets into a competently organized ambush with mining a road section and the usefulness of technical gadgets in real combat conditions.
Knowing that the enemy has equipped his units with new types, the first thing that can be done by having regular mining facilities is to simply add the number of explosives when bookmarking with a non-removable setting. Even if you don’t have so many mine-explosive ordnance, it’s enough to lay so much as to guarantee the failure of the part of the equipment (for example, to tear out the suspension and transmission components from wheeled vehicles or to tear off the balancers and rollers of tracked vehicles to the hair dryer, a caterpillar track will also be badly damaged). And the whole column stood up.

Then begins the fire action from an ambush according to the technique and manpower of the enemy in the convoy. There is such a fact that many modern promising models of BM for motorized infantry, so as not to weaken the armor protection of their sides, are no longer equipped with loopholes for firing. For the same purpose, there are no observation devices for BM landing. This is just a gift for the RDG. Now they put a DBM or a turret with weapons for BM defense or fire support for motorized rifles. But the whole thing about the ambush is that it is arranged in order to catch the enemy off guard when he is on the march.
Therefore, when a massive fire attack begins on the enemy’s convoy, the firing systems of BM vehicles will be suppressed in the first place, as a result of which the BM convoys will remain unarmed.
At the same time, fire will be opened using anti-tank guards and artillery (RPGs, ATGMs, etc.), i.e. with the use of powerful weapons, the ammunition of which is guaranteed to hit any BM, up to MBT.
I think for ethical reasons, you should not post photos of which on the network a lot of what will become of the column with a well-organized ambush. Words can be expressed as follows: a bunch of burnt equipment and the corpses of those who still managed to unfasten the awesome 4-point belts of the anti-explosion seats and, without getting entangled in them, leave the troop compartment while manually opening the jammed hatches. Or, by some miracle, throwing back the ramp with a de-energized or disabled mechanism for opening it. And time in such a situation will be short. And it is not known whether the "best in the world" rangers will return from the campaign.

[cosmos111]

sorry with the article there is no information ... about Russian developments in this area ...

Quote: wanderer_032

In TK, that each airborne landing chair should be equipped with a catapult

FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC DEAR Alexander, there is no need to invent any new materials, armored steel, energy-absorbing anti-explosive seats ... but to ride a cart with a gasoline engine ???? \ that, my son and "angry" .....

and a biosartier, you need it if it’s locked, but get out into the air, to the wind means to get, a bullet in the forehead ... so here the situation --- either in the pants ... or in the biosartier !!!

[wanderer_032]

Quote: cosmos111

FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC DEAR Alexander, do not invent any new materials

Guys, I just try to look at things objectively and I want to find a rational balance. Therefore, I deliberately take this position, choosing the role of "boy for the beat".
The secondary goal of such a position I take is to bring down stereotyped thinking that technical superiority can ensure complete and unpunished combat operations with an enemy who does not have one.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

competently organized ambush with mining of a section of the road

And if just mining the road section. And just see how many explosives are needed to destroy a column that is protected from mines or that does not have protection. I am not a specialist and in my opinion the consumption of explosives will be at least 3 times more.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

And if just mining the road section.

Ok, let's just.
The incapacitation of even several units of expensive equipment (its damage or destruction) disrupts the enemy from fulfilling his main combat missions and demoralizes the psyche of enemy soldiers in the territory of the database zone where he has his own plans. Drawing him into a protracted conflict that is extremely unfavorable to him.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

Guys, I just try to look at things objectively and I want to find a rational balance.

Balance depends on many reasons. Especially with counterguerrilla action. In fact, there are several articles with analysis of the situation.

Quote: wanderer_032

that technical superiority

Technical superiority reduces the number of losses, impunity can only be if there is aviation, and the enemy does not have air defense equipment, there will be losses during all ground operations, the question of their reduction and it is very important.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

Technical excellence, reduces losses

During the battle, maybe.
Now let's look at the situation as a whole.
We put ourselves in the place of an ordinary ordinary person taking an active part in the database.
Today we went to the operation, blew up and fired at. I managed to escape and carry my legs away. Tomorrow we went and blew it up. Concussion and light injury. The day after tomorrow we went, blew up and fired at. And so day after day. The enemy does not give you either victory or really fight. Having been in such a mess, any soldier begins to gradually "go out of hand", discipline in the subunits falls sharply.
After some time of such a life, nothing is left of fighting spirit.
In addition, among the US soldiers, for example, who participated in various operations to "bring democracy" to backward peoples, there is a high percentage of suicides from mental stress received in the DB zones. And MRAP does not save from this.
Such is the situation.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

We put ourselves in the place of an ordinary ordinary person taking an active part in the database.

And in Chechnya the first Chechen one was different, oh, excuse me for being rude, but we killed the relaxed first, and how much we got on the grass because of the strain, and there were a lot of mental disorders from the concussion. MRAP helps to reduce loss from fatigue, and the cost of the MCI pays for itself when you need to pay for the treatment and disability of a soldier. With unprotected machines it’s easier to bury, then you don’t need to spend money on treatment.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

MCI just helps reduce fatigue loss

Than? You read the comments of Comrade Saburov, there the person described everything correctly.
They already have nothing to add to what was said.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

The incapacitation of even several units of expensive equipment

Many operations take into account the losses at which the operation can take place, and if the operation can continue when the part of the machines is undermined, then the enemy’s goal is not achieved, which means the investment paid off.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

Many operations take into account the losses at which the operation can take place, and if the operation can continue when the part of the machines is undermined, then the enemy’s goal is not achieved, which means the investment paid off.

Well, well. Mine war tactics, in the first place, are designed to block the supply of material and technical equipment to combat units. Left without ammunition, fuel and food, the enemy will be forced to stop their military operations in the main directions.
The enemy will be forced to devote additional forces to protect their supply columns from attack. This guaranteed translates the war as a whole into a protracted stage.
Every day, the databases of the modern army cost a lot of money. The absence of the main result leads to the economic and political collapse of the country.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

look at things objectively and want to find a rational balance.

Quote: schizophrenic

columns which are protected from mines or which have no protection

here I am about it !!!! DEAR wanderer_03, schizophrenic (((and why "schizophrenic" if not a secret ???))))

you can blow up 1-2 MCI, or an entire column without mine protection ...

a new video ..., the bombings of amers in Afghanistan ... tin ..
how many explosives did you think?

[cosmos111]

here's another, video ... modeled in 3 D, undermining armored vehicles with a flat bottom ....

energy propagation of a blast wave, with the impact on the bottom of an armored car and landing ... with a break in the bottom .... STANAG 2в

[cosmos111]

THERE IS ANOTHER VIDEO ...- modeling of an explosion ....


AT LATERAL EXPLOSION ....

[wanderer_032]

Having watched this video, we can conclude that the MCI did not save the people inside. For guaranteed destruction of a wheeled BM of a similar class, 5-6 kg of explosives in TNT is enough.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

BM of a similar class, 5-6 kg of explosives in TNT is enough.

JOKE SORRY ???? the bumahaheds didn’t lay 20-30 kg in the heat-and-power unit, and the MPJ did not fly to pieces .... injuries would be YES, but most of the crew and the landing would not suffer .... (( (I don’t want to bring the video, as the Czechs undermine our armored Urals, there are 6-8 kg in t / e)))


STANAG 3b-6-8 kg, in t / e, under the casing .....


8 kg in te / under the body

[wanderer_032]

JOKE SORRY ????

Andrey, look and study the performance characteristics of modern explosive ordnance and their design.
And the spirits simply stuffed checkers into the pit or the OB shell from the howitzer and they don’t have enough tukmalki for anything.

[tchoni]

Quote: wanderer_032

NATO customers forgot to indicate in the statement of work that each airborne landing chair should be equipped with a catapult and built-in dry closet

In vain, by the way, you are joking, dear, a few people died when they went into the bushes to take a piss and ran into a bullet (stretch) (underline as appropriate). And how many of those who drove on armor for fear of being blown up in the "coffin" or the banal heat in the landing party waited for that bullet.
But let us return to the situation you described: they brought in, blew up the first and last cars - all the explosives ran out. (although there is a subtlety here too - see the video of explosions from cosmos111 not one car on the road remained so that "the column stood firmly" - not a fact) They began to beat small arms fire - to no avail - armor however - and on the armor - nobody - because it is more convenient and safer in the car. The people in the cars looked around (and wherever there are no convenient windows everywhere), panicked for a couple of minutes (if people are not very experienced, then more, if very experienced - less) - and hit in ambush from all over the shooting - bullet including stationary armored vehicles. Moreover, if there are no large losses from shelling, the infantry successfully dismounted and figured out the situation, and even the terrain allows - then the ambush itself may well get an attack on its positions. And if he is not yet in charge of the convoy, then with an attempt to bypass that very ambush, cutting off its escape routes.

Quote: wanderer_032

At the same time, fire will be opened using anti-tank guards and artillery (RPGs, ATGMs, etc.), i.e. using powerful weapons, the ammunition of which is guaranteed to hit any BM, up to MBT

Firstly, BM still provides some protection against RPGs. (especially if not stuffed with ammunition) Secondly, not every grenade launcher from a hundred meters into a fixed target will hit the first time. Thirdly, not every exact hit means the end of the BM and the landing. Fourth, one shot for a seven weighs about 2.5 kg. But ambushes pull a lot of things on themselves (for example, explosives in quantities sufficient to send 15 ton BM to low near-Earth)

I'm not talking about the incorrectness of your conclusions, but I think that it is still worth adopting the positive experience, and not blaming everything on the "effeminacy" and "zazhrost" of all sorts of "mattresses" and "gayropeans"

In general, an article - a selection of translated advertising booklets - one advertisement and a bunch of all sorts of meaningless words. Therefore, probably, it is perceived ... not very ...

[Saburov]

Dear, have you ever seen what 10 kg of TNT does under a tank? He’s boggling the skating rinks, he’s tearing the tracks off to fuck..you, plus the crew also gets a shell shock, the driver is definitely heavy, and you are snoring, hu..p, even if they remain alive, then they will be disabled for life, either fools or lame and with broken bones and internal hemorrhages, I had severe injuries from 12 personnel, three were lying in a coma, one was blind, brain tissue was damaged, one died a year later, only lived on artificial respiration, the rest were disabled with a shaky psyche and headaches , and you say mine defense, like a technician , is designed for low-power charges, but it won’t help from a landmine, it will bend in half and the bridges will leave the cabin, so ask those who participated about the mine war. And as for the armor or inside, it’s worth talking about the methods of war, if the enemy has only small arms inside, if something more serious, only on the armor.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: Saburov

Dear, have you ever seen what makes 10 kg of TNT under the tank

This is where mine protection is needed. If a person was injured without her, then she would probably have been treated without injury. On a low-power charge, it would cost absolutely no shell shock, and if a landmine of 20 kg explodes then the car will at least be in shreds. A rough example of a car’s safety belts can do without injuries to a certain speed, while an unfastened belt will receive them, just like in a mine explosion.

[cosmos111]

Quote: Saburov

, only on the armor.

on armor snipers shoot ....
the soldiers, under your command, were killed and maimed, because the armored vehicles did not have mine protection ...

it would have been a 25-ton MRAP with a V-shaped bottom. He did not "feel" these 10kg of explosives, at most, a slight concussion and bruises of the limbs !!!

Enough with the lives of soldiers to pay for the fuck *** *** MO officials and generals !!!

[Saburov]

It’s fun to communicate with people who haven’t tried, in the first place 10 kg of TNT will bend like a rag, I don’t believe commercials, I saw at the resorts of the Caucasus that they are doing land mines and lining, so I can safely say this, I myself had to go to Burdenko after this rehabilitation pass, secondly you apparently didn’t even serve urgent at all, just say that the snipers will shoot (pleased), first get at least a walking person, and only then aim at those who are on the armor, I will laugh how it will turn out, thirdly understand young man what physics has not been canceled, although you will have a million mine defenses, inertia and impact force will still go to the hull, the mechanics of internal damage, whatever form you come up with, it can be reduced, but it's all about low-power charges, respectively, to protect yourself from more powerful ones, you need protection more voluminous, corresponding to the charge (just to say a lot more) that will turn a car or tank into a sedentary and heavy vulnerable target. Therefore, I’m not even surprised, just people who have never seen or felt a gap near them, speed up even ordinary mines, they don’t understand the strength and pressure of the shock wave and what is done after that with the person, hence the naive conclusions like MRAP, let's reserve everything.
PS I don’t visit the site often, sometimes sometimes, to be honest, I just stumble upon a stubborn position, military ignorance, comparing airplanes with non-pilots and engineers, comparing tanks with non-tank crews and mechanics, and so on, and at the same time, make such convincing conclusions, that I am already scratching myself in the most modest places, there’s some kind of pimple kid who never even saw the sleeves and proves that the Raptor or some other lizard sees further, shoots better and generally he, he knows his exact characteristics, which even the pilots they don’t know this plane, what can you do about information warfare and reluctance to learn from young people, do you want to learn how to correctly evaluate the combat capabilities of military equipment, to begin to go to the Army or graduate from an institute in some useful profession, for example rocket science.

[brn521]

Quote: Saburov

just say that snipers will shoot (pleased), for a start, get at least a walking person

It depends on the situation. If they destroy from neighboring buildings from several trunks at once, it can turn out like the first Chechen one, the driver and the gunner will survive, and on the armor there are only blood streaks and those corpses that did not fall. And I came across stories of what a miserable sight an armored personnel carrier is, rushing around under fire on the streets. If at least half of those riding on the armor survive, this is an achievement.

Quote: Saburov

Nobody canceled physics, although you will have a million mine defenses, inertia and impact force will still go to the hull

And what part of the energy is transferred depends on the shape of this enclosure. The energy of the explosion is not impersonal, it is the gaseous products of the explosion, and they behave accordingly. There is also a brisant action, but it is limited by small distances, depending on the properties of the explosive and the size of the charge. This already applies to caterpillar tracks, wheels and rollers, rather than the hull.

Quote: Saburov

all about low power charges

Of course. By that principle, at least it’s stupid to lose people on low power charges. And you can’t put charges of high power anywhere. Antitank mine hastily dig on the road is still real. And notice it more difficult. And all these home-made products of 50 and even 100 kg are tortured to drag, install and disguise.

Quote: Saburov

MRAP 10kg of TNT will bend like a rag, I don’t believe commercials

Do you suppose that a crowd of engineers with the very education you are referring to is just fooling around and laundering money?

Quote: Saburov

I saw at the resorts of the Caucasus that landmines and linings do with tanks, so I can safely talk about it, I myself had to undergo rehabilitation after this rehabilitation in Burdenko

So the penetration of the armor in your case was definitely not there. To fix a break they write that it’s necessary like 20-25 kilograms, 10 is not enough. Well, great, I'm glad you're alive. And about the bells and whistles, which can help in this situation ... Well, for example, you can try to make a seat that can be washed in the explosion to the floor. An extra 20-30 cm stroke will reduce the shock load by several tens of times. Although perhaps this is already implemented.

[Saburov]

Well, firstly, no one rides armor in the city and dense buildings, the infantry are dismounting, and there are much more chances to skip the APCs than on heavier vehicles, especially since snipers remove people from their armor, I don’t remember something, it's easier to hit RPGs secondly, the shock wave at 10 kg of TNT calmly throws up 36 tons, as I personally saw in the Hindu Kush mountains, and it will not be difficult for him to deal with the MDI, and moreover, if it is broken or not, shell contusion and damage to internal organs are guaranteed to be received, Do you really think that the USSR has First experience of a mine war, would you never have thought of making an MPA-like machine? The thing is that the creators of MRAP, and in particular South Africa, the Americans, the British and others with a serious adversary, never fought and do not confuse Afghanistan in 80 and modern, then the United States supported and supplied spirits, plus instruction, so experience in using such they haven’t accumulated the techniques yet, have you seen the MPI? This is a present for a grenade launcher, and even a wheeled one, if they are still alive, they will figure out who they are and where they are until their heads come back to normal, and during this time they win, so it’s better to trawl and the right tactics they didn’t think of it, the availability of intelligence, competent glanders, the secrecy of travel routes, practically reduces the mine war to zero, in Chechnya, 80% of the information about the routes merged from ours, hence the losses. And do not forget that this type of weapon does not protect crew from undermining the Soviet pro ivotankovoy mine e.g. TM-62, having charge 7,5 kg of TNT, under blowing even one 152 mm projectile, which is often used as a mine. So that 6-7 kg is not more, but shell concussion and possible damage to internal organs are guaranteed, and if after that even start to hammer with RPG? Anti-RPP defense

[voyaka uh]

It is not very indicative to refer to the experience of the USSR. The experience was huge
no one argues, but the general concept was: "victory will write off losses."
They thought about victory and not about reducing their losses. For example, in WWII
to win the battle, losing twice as much as the enemy,
it was considered in SA completely normal and natural. Now there are several other times.
First of all, the mobilization potential is very small. There will be no reserves.
Therefore, the technique of the times of the USSR, tuned to victory with heavy losses, is not suitable.
That is why loss reduction technologies are very relevant for all "players".

[insafufa]

For BMP 1, 200g of TNT was enough; I myself saw a skating rink tear off a 10Kg air tank and the MRK couldn’t save even if it had a V-shaped building itself, it was more than once that children in unarmored trucks were killed from anti-personnel mines when fragments flashed the cabin through GAZ66 or Kamaz were generally dangerous. An experimental batch of Urals with an all-armored cabin reduced losses from low-power charges. And more than once before my eyes, the BMP tower took off like in a movie 9 companies from 1 kg of TNT and whoever cleaned it up so that the infantry on the armor blew MOM 50-100 cleanly there would be a desire for the opportunity to be found very successfully we fought landmines along the roads using mine clearance vehicles who interfered or prepared to detonate regular ammunition and didn’t come up with anything better
My opinion MRAR is a police operation machine

[wanderer_032]

Quote: tchoni

But back to the situation you described

A good and extremely clear answer to your comment was given by the respected comrade Saburov.
As they say, do not add, do not turn it down.

[Asan Ata]

Well said.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

They strengthen the bottoms ... they put some kind of mutaten on the torsion bars ... In a word, digitized ...

If there are opportunities, of course, you need to think about the safety of the soldiers. So the article is a plus. This is better than being guided by an unprofessional army, flooding everything with its own blood. And better than the position "just think, a dozen more conscripts have accumulated, the country is large, we will call in another hundred in return." How many of the Afghan people have returned to the disabled. How many drivers-mechanics simply twisted their necks when blown up. If their number can be reduced by at least a quarter just by installing some fancy chairs, I'm all for it. Moreover, sometimes it turned out just silly, the armored personnel carrier is still on the move, but stands still, since those who could drive were disabled by the explosion. So what's the use of the survivability of the vehicle if it doesn't apply to the crew? They will burn it anyway, or even worse, they will capture it, no matter how you twist it.

Quote: wanderer_032

BM for motorized infantry, so as not to weaken the armor protection of their sides, ceased to be equipped with loopholes for firing. For the same purpose, there are no observation devices for BM landing.

Well, you need to focus on technology. Put cameras and monitors. The review will be much better than when observing through conventional optics, and will not depend on the time of day. Add computer processing so that the electronics process audio and video data, isolating the necessary information from them, and performing, for example, target designation. The same sniper in such situations can be detected from the first shot (the sound of a shot taken from several microphones, a flash of a shot, a suspicious heat spot, albeit dispersed by ammunition, processing - fractions of a second). The gunner does not need anything else, the sniper may not even have time to get out of position. To make an automatic guidance system - also with the current technology as two fingers. Approximate ideal: the ambush was successful, the armored personnel carrier was immobilized and burned, the crew was dead, the landing party either, lying around under the wheels, yelling and scorching in white light (the usual picture). But while the electronics and batteries are still alive, and the ammunition has not run out, the tower continues to snarl at targets that the gunner managed to confirm. Few people will become involved with such equipment, trying to organize ambushes on it.
Using the same technology, by the way, I would think about moving the seats of the driver back, their perches are too vulnerable.
The same thing about embrasures. It is better to make remote turrets than to cut holes in the body, shooting through which anyway no one will get into anyone. More recently, all this was at the level of expensive fiction, but now technology has advanced significantly and cheaper. People, of course, are universal in military use, but they are too vulnerable, and their capabilities are limited, so you need to push them away and protect better.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

If their number can be reduced by at least a quarter just by installing some sophisticated chairs, I’m only for it.

Now imagine that in case of damage to the machine you need to get out of it very quickly, well, very quickly, because at any moment a blazing coffin can be made from it.
Will you have the time and opportunity to leave the BM in the shortest time if you are fastened to the seat tightly?
You may be injured or severely concussed and your ability to move will drop sharply. And in this situation you have to rely only on yourself. Because your comrades may die or be seriously injured in an unconscious state.

Quote: brn521

Well, you need to focus on technology. Put cameras and monitors. The review will be much better than when observing through conventional optics, and will not depend on the time of day.

The idea is good, but such devices greatly complicate the design of BM (we need more powerful sources of electric energy, therefore more powerful internal combustion engines), and also significantly increase their cost. All these design changes drag on an increase in the mass and dimensions of the BM.
War is always a loss and vehicles with sophisticated avionics are little adapted to mass production, because their production will consume a lot of scarce and expensive materials.

Quote: brn521

But while the electronics and batteries are still alive, and the ammunition has not run out, the tower continues to snarl at targets that the gunner managed to confirm. Few people will become involved with such equipment, trying to organize ambushes on it.

That's it for now. The power of modern fire brigade infantry even morally obsolete models is such that it can disable or destroy any BM from the first shot including MBT. And the BM systems will be the first to be disabled. They are very vulnerable on all BM samples without exception. Modern battle is very fleeting, seconds decide everything.
Developing a BM without embrasures and relying on the main armament of the machine, the engineers make it impossible for the machine’s landing to engage in a close defensive battle and the ability of the troops to bite themselves off the attack by creating fire density in the right direction.

For the most part on the battlefield, action tactics decide everything, not technical superiority.

[voyaka uh]

What loopholes? What kind of defensive fire? RPG-7 breaks everything except
some heavy tanks and TBTR.
BM in case of any attack on it or should vomit at full
speeds from the fire zone, or everyone inside must jump out of it
as soon as possible.

"Few people will get involved with this technique,
trying to ambush her. "///

It is on such a technique that they are hunted from ambushes. Guaranteed
penetration from a heavy machine gun or RPG and a bunch of corpses.
The tank will be missed, and BM will be flashed.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: voyaka uh

BM in case of any attack on it or should vomit at full
speeds from the fire zone, or everyone inside must jump out of it
as soon as possible.

That's it, but the guys who organize ambushes also know about this and arrange them in the most inappropriate places. So that no one is guaranteed to fall down, or that it would be very difficult to do so.
And as for the embrasures ... It is better when they are there, even if they break the barrage fire to open towards the enemy in order to cool the ardor of those who are in ambush.
Or cover their own, at the time of landing from the car.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

Will you have the time and opportunity to leave the BM in the shortest time if you are fastened to the seat tightly?

It depends on which mount. There are options that are difficult to just fasten, but they are unfastened with a light touch of a finger, the belts fall apart into two / four ribbons that do not cling to anything and do not interfere

Quote: wanderer_032

You may be injured or severely concussed and your ability to move will drop sharply.

But the option of injury or contusion due to contact with the head with anything solid will be ruled out. Especially important when it comes to driver mechanics. He will be cut down, the host car will stand up, the entire column of cranes.

Quote: wanderer_032

need more powerful sources of electric energy, therefore more powerful ICE

Ten cameras + 2 monitors + a system unit I hung on a 500-watt uninterruptible power supply, and with a margin. Well, if we have a lot of monitors, we can reach 700-800 watts. This is about one horsepower.

Quote: wanderer_032

as well as significantly increase their cost

2-3 thousand for the camera, about 6 thousand for 1 monitor, about 20-30 thousand for the system driver (we need shockproof, compact and economical, like a laptop). Plus a little extra electronics for wiring multiple monitors and controls. Well, you have to write your own software for a specific task. But remember, this is all retail, wholesale and without customs duties will cost much cheaper. Now compare how much the APC itself costs, which without all this will certainly burn.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

It depends on which mount. There are options that are difficult to just fasten, but they are unfastened with a light touch of a finger, the belts fall apart into two / four ribbons that do not cling to anything and do not interfere

Baby talk. You from an ordinary passenger car quickly as soon as possible try to jump out, dressed in military equipment with AK, being fastened with an ordinary automobile 3-point belt.
I would give dearly to look at it.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

You from an ordinary passenger car quickly as soon as possible try to jump out, dressed in military equipment with AK, being fastened with an ordinary automobile 3-point belt.

Since we are talking about baby talk, poke your finger, where was it talking about a regular three-point automobile belt?

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

Since we are talking about baby talk, poke your finger, where was it talking about a regular three-point automobile belt?

That's it. Having looked at all these "chic" seats, as a person who knows about armored personnel carriers, etc. BM not by hearsay, I can say with confidence that a fighter equipped in an RPM (for example, with a weapon, will not be able to get out of such a chair with nothing hooked) I am telling you this as a driver of wheeled armored personnel carriers and vehicles based on them.

And besides, even from an ordinary passenger car, you can quickly get out while wearing a seat belt. For example, armed with a "Saiga" carbine and equipped in a bulletproof vest, it is a rather problematic task for a person who does not have certain dexterity and skills. Therefore, at work, I did not wear a belt. I am telling you this as the RRB security driver.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

I say this to you as a driver of wheeled armored personnel carriers and vehicles based on them.

Just an armored personnel carrier? This is not enough. I know one completely sane man who rides a sports bike without a helmet. He also knew another who rode in a helmet for half his life, and only after retirement got into an accident. The skull would not break, but a few meters would grind on the asphalt face, not a helmet. So what, in vain did he soar half his life in a helmet?
Have you ever had to undermine? Or at least look at such blown up ones? From their point of view, one must judge. As for me, broken skulls and folded necks represent a rather serious argument. And the stupidest thing is that you can pull the caterpillar relatively quickly backwards with the same BMP or matalyge, but the driver may no longer be replaced.

Quote: wanderer_032

And besides, even from an ordinary passenger car quickly get out being fastened with a belt.

Conventional car belts are not designed to quickly leave a car. And how can one judge something about them?

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

Conventional car belts are not designed to quickly leave a car. And how can one judge something about them?

Did you yourself sit at least once in an armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle? Or even in a more modern BM?
And you can definitely say that there is enough space inside and the size of the hatches or doors to quickly leave?
In my experience, I can say that you can get out of a passenger car in any way.

[brn521]

Sorry, it’s a little tough for me with telepathy this year. Explain specifically the relationship between the presence of belts and the lack of space inside, as well as the size of the hatches.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

How many people from Afghanistan returned with disabilities. How many driver-mechanics simply turned their necks at a blast.

Separately, on this part, I want to add that most of these facts came from the fact that the conduct of hostilities was poorly organized. These are mainly blunders of the officers who were responsible for this.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

How many people from Afghanistan returned with disabilities. How many driver-mechanics simply turned their necks at a blast.

Separately, on this part, I want to add that most of these facts came from the fact that the conduct of hostilities was poorly organized

the war in Ruin showed that (((as Lopatov wrote yesterday, each armored vehicle is for its own theater .... but I will add, not only from the theater but also from what kind of war is going on)))

in the Ruin, now there is a "HYBRID" WAR .... when there is both a partisan and
"classic", with the use of heavy weapons of the Air Force and armored vehicles ....
for such a war and armored vehicles, there must be a COMBINING, TTX both for combined arms operations and partisan (((RDG))) actions .....

here it is of great importance --- LOW SILHOUETTE, GOOD MOBILITY, QUIET SILENCE, HEAT AND VISUAL VISIBILITY (((WIDE APPLICATION OF HEAT IMAGERS))) ...... AT GOOD RESERVATION .....

tanks, do not go to the "forehead" of the militia, but they usually beat from an ambush (((((very useful "Sprut-B" SAU "Vienna"))))

and, for the movement of the militia infantry, armored vehicles weighing 7,5 tons, open without a roof, but with armored hulls and armored glass ... weapons machine guns 12,7, 7,62, 40 mm AGS ..... also with the possibility of installing 120 mm and 82 mm mortars, recoilless guns ZU-23, etc ...
Armored Car-Supacat HMT Extenda

[wanderer_032]

Well, for any BRDM-2, cut off the roof, reinforce the sides, put a guide for the machine gun like the M3A1 "Scout" or BTR-60P and go ahead.

Or you take a chassis from a KAMAZ or URAL, or a "shishigi" without a cab, weld a similar body, put it on the frame and also go ahead.
Yes, only the militia has no time for this. We must fight now, not tomorrow.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

the whole ambush feature is that it is arranged in order to catch the enemy off guard when he is on the march

For electronics, there is no concept of "off guard", it does not get tired and is almost always capable of working normally. So we need to focus on this.

Quote: wanderer_032

At the same time, fire will be opened using anti-tank guards and artillery (RPGs, ATGMs, etc.), i.e. with the use of powerful weapons, the ammunition of which is guaranteed to hit any BM, up to MBT.

That's the problem, the weakest part of the technology is the people who control it. A tank could withstand more hits until it lights up, or detonates the ammunition. But bad luck, the crew quickly glues the fins and the tank turns into a useless piece of iron. This is a serious problem and must be addressed.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

For electronics, there is no concept of "off guard", it does not get tired and is almost always capable of working normally. So we need to focus on this.

Electronics can be counteracted using various types of camouflage and technical countermeasures. The stuffed electronics is not a way to solve the problem. Technical superiority does little in the confrontation with the enemy, who has a high tactical training and has in arms some technically perfect weapons and equipment. So completely relying on him as they like to do in the armies of NATO countries is an empty idea.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

Electronics can be counteracted using various types of camouflage and technical countermeasures. Electronics stuffed with no way to solve problems

with this your statement, CATEGORALLY DISAGREE !!!!

now the war ... SHARED AND SHAPPED !!! AND FASTER, THERE IS MORE CHANCE, THAT THE TANK WILL NOT LIKE THE SAU ARMOR MACHINE !!!!

WITHOUT EXCELLENT ELECTRONICS AND OPTICS, there is no way to do this ....

TIME - SOLVES EVERYTHING !!!!! and preferably, 3rd generation ammunition (((SHOT AND FORGOTTEN))

[wanderer_032]

Quote: cosmos111

with this your statement, CATEGORALLY DISAGREE !!!!

Well, then what do you suggest Andrei to counteract?
For example, from such cp-enemy intelligence. Myself must not be discovered.

[brn521]

Will have to be limited to purely subversive, not developing success. Those. ambushes will no longer make sense. That's how it happened in Grozny. Install a homemade explosive device and wait. If a single APC is blown up, they fire at 2-3 barrels. If not single, then quietly dumped. At least I understood some episodes in the first Chechen one. Those. the overwhelming fire superiority of the column makes ambushes on it pointless.
By the way, in such episodes, driver mechanics suffered. Either the skull will be broken, or the displacement of the vertebrae will work. It is cheaper to solve this problem by technical means than to keep disabled people later.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

That's the problem, the weakest part of the technology is the people who control it.

Quote: brn521

This is a serious problem and must be addressed.

I agree, but such decisions should be initially incorporated in the design of any BM during its development, and not the subsequent run in a panic how to fix everything, after the machine was adopted and it began to enter the army.
And in addition, all constructive decisions in the creation of new armored vehicles should be combined with strict rationalism to all requirements (production, operation, maintenance, repair, combat use). The only way.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

I agree, but such decisions should be initially incorporated in the design of any BM

and, here I completely agree ..... BM should be, according to TTX the most simple, minimum of electronics use of units of serial freight cars or armored personnel carriers ..... good maintainability, ease of operation ....
but this is a mass "product" with a low cost ((((and tanks and self-propelled guns, my post are worth millions more $$$$)))) they should only be operated by proffies .... otherwise it's a bunch of expensive hardware ...
that successfully proved, fascist tankers Zionohunta ....

armor ...... "Vodnik" reinforce the bottom (((double spaced))) muffler, open top, ready armored car ... FOR REGULATIONS !!!!

[cosmos111]

that territory controlled by the militia in the DNI and LC, full of factories, car repair enterprises ..... where you can get it, steel ....

why there are so few militias, home-made armored cars ... remade from trucks ...
flash in frames, but very rarely ....

as an example: UNIMOG 1700L truck "MOTHERSHIP"

[miv110]

"... burned through by a molten jet of shaped charge." - how many times can one and the same mistake be repeated? Well, the molten jet does not burn, but pierces due to the high kinetic energy! Unprofessional, like saying that a snake stings, not bites.

[cosmos111]

Quote: miv110

stings, not bites.

a bee stings, and a snake bites ((bite of a cobra .. there is such a film))

but this is not the point ... in a modern war, you need a good camouflage of armored vehicles ...

especially from enemy UAVs using thermal imagers ...

[wanderer_032]

Quote: cosmos111

but this is not the point ... in a modern war, you need a good camouflage of armored vehicles ...

Yeah !!! Already needed.
Wow and Andryukha ...

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

Yeah !!! Already needed

and how Alexander is different ...
I posted: the first to see and shoot, he won !!!

here is a link on this topic (((war in ruin)))):http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/
subject:

How did the 30th brigade die: the story of a surviving Berdichevite

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

the first to be disabled are weapons systems and BM surveillance.

Look at the camera built into your cell phone. The same as in expensive cameras, the matrix + plus lens, nothing else is needed. And it turns out pretty cheap, almost at the price of ammunition. At the same time there is a night, and sometimes even IR mode. How many of these can be hung around the BM perimeter? Until you break them all, the computer will regularly switch from dead cameras to survivors. This is about observation.
About weapons. Try KPVT or even PKT to shell, or incapacitate by a tiny fragment. So let them hit the armament as much as they want, if only the crew and the landing would not touch. Because of this, it is also necessary to move the weapons into uninhabited modules and turrets.

Quote: wanderer_032

The stuffed electronics is not a way to solve the problem.

What does stuffed mean? Cameras, drives (by the way, and so they are, only unreliable and weak, in the 80s they just fail), a couple of system units (redundant for survivability), wires. No mega-devices made to order by secret military enterprises. And a lot of space is not necessary, only for monitors. But what are the possibilities. And this is based on ordinary civilian designs.

Quote: wanderer_032

Electronics can be counteracted using various types of camouflage and technical countermeasures.

But it will be more difficult than just hiding from people. The human ear may not hear a shot from a screw cutter. A good microphone can easily pull out the overall sound from a given direction in high quality, digitize it. The computer with the help of the software will determine that this is exactly the sound of a screw cutter, compare the sound of several microphones and calculate the approximate direction. It processes the image from this direction, identifies the most suspicious object, possibly slightly luminous in the IR range (the sniper needs to breathe at least) and determines the distance to it. This is all a split second. It will also take time to entrust the tower to this object and give a request to the gunner to open fire.

Quote: voyaka uh

BM in case of any attack on it or should vomit at full speed from the fire zone

This is of course. But if the column is attacked in a place where you can’t turn around (for example, a city), then the front and rear cars will be beaten up, and that’s all, you won’t go anywhere. Therefore, it is so important that the driver of the attacked armored personnel carrier remains in working condition. Armored personnel carrier that, well, the wheel will tear off, so one wheel is not scary. Well, the engine stalls, so you can start again. And if the centner of explosives is laid down to pack the APCs reliably, then this may already be too noticeable. So the weak link is revealed, the driver. It must be protected, this will increase the survivability of the entire APC. The truth, true since WWII, the effectiveness and survivability of armored vehicles is determined by the driver and gunner.

[cosmos111]

Quote: brn521

But if the column is attacked in a place where you can’t turn around (for example, a city), then the front and rear cars will be beaten up, and that’s all, you won’t go anywhere. Therefore, it is so important that the driver of the attacked armored personnel carrier remains in working condition. Armored personnel carrier

to enter the city in a column ??? and even on an armored personnel carrier with its "cardboard" abuse, THIS IS SUICIDE !!!

only Tanks + BTR-T, under the guise of infantry ((how does the IDF operate in urban conditions)))
cameras, etc. are devices ... a situational awareness, more suitable in a counterguerrilla war ....

[voyaka uh]

"it is so important that the driver of the attacked APC remains
in working order"///

Driver mechanics are not fighters - "Rambo" , usually. They are responsible for oil and gas, technical inspections - so that the car goes, well, and do not fall into a ravine, a hole, of course. Important things, by the way.
During the battle ... no exploits are expected from them. The commander himself gets behind the wheel and pulls the car out of battle, while the rest lie on the ground and shoot back.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: voyaka uh

Driver mechanics are not fighters - "Rambo"

I agree. But the life of all who are in the BM depends on their skills and management skills for BM. As well as from their ability to quickly navigate in a combat situation.

Quote: voyaka uh

The commander himself gets behind the wheel and pulls the car out of battle, while the rest lie on the ground and shoot back.

Yeah. Such commanders are probably only in the IDF. In the Russian army this is not, mech.vody and drivers are an integral part of the machine.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

About weapons. Try KPVT or even PKT to shell, or incapacitate by a tiny fragment.

Easy. Machine gun barrels are easily incapacitated by fire from any small arms. As well as optics and everything on the tower of modern BM.

[brn521]

Quote: voyaka uh

or everyone inside must jump out of neek as quickly as possible.

It depends on what they beat. If from AGS and grenade launchers, then as a result they can lump with fragments to the state of mincemeat. And another problem arises, the weapons of the APC should work, even if it is knocked out. The release will not give anything, it is necessary to crush the fire in response. The landing in the event of an ambush, it turns out badly. Of course it happened that the gunner was dragged from the trigger only unless dead, but these were heroes who did not grow on trees.

Quote: voyaka uh

It is on such a technique that they are hunted from ambushes. Guaranteed penetration from a heavy machine gun or RPG and a bunch of corpses.

This is where the latest advances in electronics need to be strained. I didn’t just remember about video surveillance. Some software features are impressive. The program, for example, can itself detect a suspicious object, turn the camera on, unscrew the zoom and take a picture. Doesn’t resemble anything? Or it can recognize individual people and compare them with data from the database. And all this at the capacities of a rather outdated system unit. Five years ago. And now I can’t even imagine what can be done with this electronics.
How many APCs were saved only because the driver had noticed the shots from the RPGs in time and managed to maneuver. And here he will have a significantly better overview, and a computer on the hook, able to detect suspicious objects and events (movements, flashes, clouds of smoke, fast-moving objects). Add a fire control system here, and a potential grenade launcher may not even have time to aim and shoot if the gunner has time to click the desired button, and the turret drives are accurate and powerful enough.
And as people snipers sometimes get it. Let the BM in the parking lot not idle, but hunt for snipers. So that in response to a shot, after a couple of seconds, the delivery of 30mm shells was counted down accurately. It’s all for the gunner to click on the button, confirming that the sight was really staring at a suspicious place, and not at the back of the head of the company. He is also there in order to pull out some kind of fuses, if things go completely wrong. Of course, no one will trust a fully automatic complex, without human intervention. But in case there comes a full edge, it is possible to switch to full automation. For the computer to nail everything that moves and shoots in this sector. Under the cover of such a fire, you can have time to recover, pull out the wounded and regroup. Then go and see if any of the attackers survived (this is already ideal, depending on what was hanging on the APC and who wrote the software).

[voyaka uh]

No electronics will help in battle if your BM is not enough
armored. Those. does not weigh 40 tons, like a tank.

There are light BM reconnaissance and patrols. They have enough to do
V-shaped bottom, hanging chairs - against mines (as in the article).
And they hang it with metal-ceramic plates to hold machine-gun bullets. But these machines are not for battle! They put a machine-gun turret (or a remote "combat module", as they say now). But this machine gun is for suppressive fire when retreating or to cover the crew while dismounting.
Acoustic antennas are also installed on these machines to detect snipers,
and night vision devices and video optics. But the whole task is to call for reinforcements and adjust his fire.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

I agree, but such decisions should be initially incorporated into the design of any BM during its development

All in all, it is necessary to provide a place for system units and monitors. And dispense with conventional civilian source materials. Then it will be possible to heap up what is already there, for example, old BTR 80s, having invested 200-250 thousand in them. Or maybe even less, but I do not know how much the new drives for weapons and software will cost.

Quote: wanderer_032

And in addition, all constructive decisions in the creation of new armored vehicles must be combined with strict rationalism to all requirements (production, operation, maintenance, repair, combat use)

On the contrary, we need flexibility and reckoning on what is already there, and not on what might come down to us from heaven someday. If you create a sophisticated megaproject, chances are good that it will not be possible to advance it anywhere and get initial financing. If we refine what we have with improvised materials, keeping within a relatively small budget, then this will already be the case. So that the general could get in and go nuts, like in, everything is visible at night, a number of targets in the palm of your hand. The tower itself was entrusted, the button click, broads, there are no targets. The hardest part is writing / buying / storing this very software. It is the most important part of the whole system as a whole, the rest can not be bought here, so there, pick up, find a replacement, solder yourself.

[brn521]

Quote: voyaka uh

No electronics will help in battle if your BM is insufficiently armored. Those. doesn't weigh 40 tons like a tank

Compare the cost of 1 kg of armor and 1 kg of TNT. Result: the armor in any case will ultimately lose. So the second option remains, early detection of threats and their destruction. I think there is no need to explain that human capabilities are limited here. Well, you accidentally noticed a flash, what do you have time to do? Flop on the ground and scream. Whereas electronics during this same time could already begin to work out the program laid down in it: shooting in this sector of everything moving and shooting.

Quote: voyaka uh

There are light BM reconnaissance and patrols ... But these machines are not for battle! ... On such machines they put acoustic antennas for detecting snipers, night vision devices and video optics

BRDM type. Useful thing, I do not argue. But suppose that didn't help, and the main column was ambushed. So the effectiveness of the main combat units must also be increased. And do it as cheaply as possible, using existing tools. Essentially what I'm talking about. About robotization or something. Automate as many routine operations as possible. Up to the point that equipment can independently carry out part of the combat missions. As I have already given an example, a padded armored personnel carrier with a dead crew (the armor always loses) continues to consciously process the indicated sector by flashes, silhouettes or the sound of shots, covering the survivors. And to make him stop this business will be more difficult than if an ordinary gunner were involved in this. Everything rests on software, the rest seems to be present in the civilian market.

Quote: voyaka uh

The commander himself gets behind the wheel and pulls the car out of battle, while the rest lie on the ground and shoot back.

Those. leaves the landing without cover? Moreover, with a competent ambush, he will not go far, because the attackers are counting on this.
Here http://www.zakon-grif.ru/swat/tactics/scout/view/59-0.htm is certainly not complete enough, but obviously, if the ambush succeeds, the column is anyway in the ass. Attackers even took this into account: http://www.zakon-grif.ru/swat/tactics/troopscout/view/125-0.htm. The only universal way of defense that comes to my mind is to shoot accurately and efficiently. Those. the shooter with an RPG where he raised himself, there must lie down, not having time to really aim. How to do it? The defenders in advance are in a losing position, otherwise there will be no ambush. To wind up the technique, nothing else remains. Reducing including the human factor. It’s much easier to knock out a gunner than to find batteries, control units and drives from some turret FCT. It may well turn out that until the armored personnel carrier is scattered in the trash, this FCT will not shut up. But the same PKT, which defines grenade throwers and riflemen from large-caliber weapons as priority objectives, will not be able to mark out. It's like a special forces, they do not hope for bulletproof vests, but that the enemy will grab a bullet before they can try this bulletproof vest for durability. So it’s with the equipment so that in case of an unforeseen situation it won’t be taken aback, but then it worked to the full. The best defense against RPGs is when the grenade launcher is still unable to shoot accurately.

[brn521]

Quote: cosmos111

to enter the city in a column ??? and even on an armored personnel carrier with its "cardboard" abuse, THIS IS SUICIDE !!!

Of course. But there is such a thing as a roast rooster, which sometimes pecks. It is impossible to move around the city except in a column. Leveling the city to the ground is also not an option. Clearing out individual houses every time - you need a lot of infantry and time. If all this is not there, but the problem must be solved desperately, then we get a column crawling through the city and hope for "maybe" that there are civilians in the neighboring houses, and not militants in ambush. In general, whatever you think of, the columns will fall into ambushes, not in cities, but in mountains, forests or swamps. So you need a means of survival in case the convoy is ambushed, stopped and fired upon. Afghan showed that this business can continue until the complete destruction of the column, the rescue arriving in time is observing only coals and corpses, the advantage of the attackers is too great. This means you need to squeeze as much as possible from the equipment included in the column.

[wanderer_032]

So we came to the fact that technical superiority cannot ensure complete superiority over the enemy, which does not have one.
Thank you all.

[voyaka uh]

How can I explain to you? IDF is probably the most "electronic" army
in the world. Well, maybe the Americans have more. But nevertheless came
to the conclusion: without powerful passive armor - no-no-yes. Armor can
a metal sandwich or ceramic panel or something else, but for now
guaranteed not to hold an RPG-7 grenade (at least) -
do not go to war.
Or there will be an endless burnt-out "armor" -technique (armor- put in quotation marks)

Take a look at the recent entrance to Gaza: into a continuous urban area
several hundred tanks and TBTR entered. Not a single loss!
But one old light armored personnel carrier burned out - with fighters. Just a clear demonstration of the benefits of heavy booking.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: voyaka uh

Look at the recent entrance to Gaza:

What was the distance from the initial positions of the mechanized unit to the place where the DB zone began? If not difficult, please tell me.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

So we came to the fact that technical superiority cannot ensure complete superiority over the enemy, which does not have one.

+ training soldiers, coherence between infantry tanks, sappers, reconnaissance, aviation ...
if all this is served in real time to unit commanders, THIS ENSURES TOTAL ADVANTAGE BEFORE AN ENEMY !!!

Quote: voyaka uh

several hundred tanks and TBTR entered. Not a single loss!

THIS IS ALREADY EVEN NOT DISCUSSED !!!
although initially such a tactic of action in the city of Tsakhal took over from the Red Army in urban battles of the Second World War 44-45 !!!

[wanderer_032]

Quote: cosmos111

+ training soldiers, coherence between infantry tanks, sappers, reconnaissance, aviation ...
if all this is served in real time to unit commanders, THIS ENSURES TOTAL ADVANTAGE BEFORE AN ENEMY !!!

All this is good. But ... Ask yourself a question.
And if the enemy also has an army that is not Khuhra-Mukhra, and on the other side are exactly the same guys, who are stubborn in the whole tower, ready to kill the enemy by all available means?
Suppose their equipment is not so perfect, but quite combat-ready.
Will you survive when your armies converge in battle?

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

Easy. Machine gun barrels are easily incapacitated by fire from any small arms. As well as optics and everything on the tower of modern BM.

Do not forget that the number of attackers is limited, once they engage in minor nonsense like shootings with turret mechanisms. Trunks bend and knock down optics. They would have to burn equipment as soon as possible, but to kill people, and to dump quickly. If they immediately fall under heavy aimed fire, they won’t even get involved, they will dump them right there. Those. the remaining troops and equipment will survive. So try to provide this aimed dense fire, if they shot up from an RPG on an armored personnel carrier. Once the armor has stalled, the attackers will begin to deal with the rest of the convoy, vehicles and people. So you need to come up with something so that the armored personnel carrier can hold on to the last, until the weapons finally fail. This will significantly increase the chance that the attack will drown. I suggested creating a system for automatic target recognition and guidance based on conventional civilian technologies and components. Moreover, it will be possible to combine business with pleasure, greatly improving the review.

Quote: wanderer_032

So we came to the fact that technical superiority cannot ensure complete superiority over the enemy, which does not have one.

Nonsense is complete. It all depends on the conditions. Many problems are related to the population. Carry out tactics of scorched earth, and there will be no ambushes, partisans, and bombings of equipment. Do not forget about chemical, bacteriological and nuclear weapons. Technical superiority can solve everything, but his hands are often tied.

Quote: voyaka uh

The armor can be a metal sandwich or ceramic panel or something else, but so far it is guaranteed not holding an RPG-7 grenade (at least) - do not go to war.

Temporary solution. What RPG-7 grenade? Where there is PG-7VL, PG-7VR and TBG-7V / VL may well appear. And this means the appearance of holes even in 40-ton BMPs, and transported to shreds are simpler. Well, yes, they weigh not 2,5, but 4,5 kg, but it’s not fatal, then it’s still easy to get away.

Quote: voyaka uh

Look at the recent entrance to Gaza: several hundred tanks and TBTR entered the zone of continuous urban development. Not a single loss!

Congratulations, this is truly an achievement. And hurt for the future seems. So you have to either go to Gaza, then get out of Gaza. completely deadlock.

Quote: voyaka uh

The IDF is probably the most "electronic" army in the world.

Now this is more interesting. Is there anything to quickly identify targets based on video and audio data?

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

Do not forget that the number of attackers is limited.

This is not always the case when it comes to large-scale conflict. For example, this may be a raid motorized mechanized group by the number of drugs and equipment equal to MCP.

And if these guys are light, then it could well turn out to be a WG from artillery. They need to work only devices for determining the coordinates to the target and the means of communication. They will use their weapons only if they are discovered and they have to retreat.
In this case, I do not envy the enemy's moving column, a sudden artillery attack on the precise guidance of the artillery reconnaissance WG will leave "horns and legs" from any column in 5-10 minutes. And your MRAP will not help here (because on the roof the armor is weak even on the MBT).
For example, if the battery "MSTA-S" or something similar works on it. And at the same time, not a single shot from the frontal weapon will be fired at the column.
I already describe this as an adult war game. This can also be considered one of the types of ambushes (especially if the place is pre-selected for artillery raid and there is already ready data for shooting).
By the way, ukro-junta forces are being covered in the Donbas today.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: wanderer_032

Nonsense is complete. It all depends on the conditions. Many problems are related to the population. Carry out tactics of scorched earth, and there will be no ambushes, partisans, and bombings of equipment. Do not forget about chemical, bacteriological and nuclear weapons. Technical superiority can solve everything, but his hands are often tied.

And then the point is to fight at all? War for war?
After using WMD of any kind, the territory cannot be used for a long time due to contamination of the area, as well as living on it.
Therefore, WMD is a way to an impasse, otherwise they would all throw for any reason.
The main thing is the goal pursued by those who attack and those who defend themselves. And believe suicide is not in whose interests is not included.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

This is not always the case when it comes to large-scale conflict.

And what is technical superiority in your opinion? Take, for example, the American invasion of Iraq, the Desert Storm. In this situation, technical superiority was realized. Take the situation in Ukraine. Initial technical superiority has not been realized, mediocre command of the troops led to the loss of Ukrainian troops, the result is technical superiority lost.

Such crude options for the combat use of technology.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

Take, for example, the American invasion of Iraq, the Desert Storm. In this situation, technical superiority was realized.

In addition to technical superiority, fertile soil was also prepared here for the "victory" to take place. First of all, this was expressed in undermining the authority of ordinary citizens to power, so that they did not rush to become armed and “heroically” die for their country and generally fight.
These events are of a slightly different nature and are beyond the scope of this topic.

But I add that the same measures were carried out in Yugoslavia, in Afghanistan, again in Iraq and many more where, which ensured the almost unhindered passage of American troops through the territories of these countries. As well as relatively small losses among personnel.
This is the main secret of those "victories", not technical superiority.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

In addition to technical superiority, fertile soil was also prepared here for the "victory" to take place

And in order to convey their information, technology was also used, all modern wars go with the use of technology for war and for supplying information, the so-called dual technologies.

Sorry, I didn’t get your vision of technical superiority, otherwise the dispute will just come to a standstill and we will both be right.

[schizophrenic]

Let's take an example, a collision of two cars with a lot of rollers in the web, one equipped with security systems, and the other not, a head-on collision, in the first car shook, in the second death. Equivalent to a car weighing a ton and a speed of 130 km per hour, shot from a howitzer 152 mm. So the energy dissipated in the design of the car equipped with a security system. So when a mine is blown up, the MPAP framework itself breaks down where it was laid down by the designer, while simultaneously absorbing and deflecting the blast wave, as a result, at the same weight, greater human protection is achieved, although if the explosion power exceeds the strength laid down by the designer, then the probability of survival is reduced .

[schizophrenic]

And all MRIs will help, only if the enemy has not prepared a place for an ambush and when the information about the column is leaked, then there will always be problems. And when there is a quick ambush on the discovered column, then the power of explosive devices will be less than if an ambush is prepared. In general, MRIs are needed, against a weak enemy.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

And all MRIs will help, only if the enemy has not prepared a place for an ambush and when the information about the column is leaked, then there will always be problems.

Even if there will be a minimum of leaks or not at all, then this will have very little effect on the course of the database, because undercover intelligence is not the main way to obtain reliable intelligence. And even more I will say that the information received from agents in the rear has to be processed and analyzed much more carefully than that obtained from other sources.
The effectiveness of the equipment used directly depends on the DB theater where it is used and on the mentality of the local population, against which this equipment is used and by whom.
There were videos when unarmed people on a NIVA drove a tank into the field. Or a recent case when militia soldiers captured an APC, knocking trees around him with chainsaws and thereby blocking the escape route for his crew.
Or here’s another recent incident when three of the DNR militia attacked in a hand-to-hand combat a whole platoon of ukrovoyok standing at a checkpoint and using a knife fight, disabled the entire platoon personnel, captured 2 armored personnel carriers, these unfortunate small arms and platoon support weapons.
Did technical excellence help those who had it in these cases?

[wanderer_032]

Quote: schizophrenic

Sorry, I didn’t get your vision of technical superiority, otherwise the dispute will just come to a standstill and we will both be right.

The biggest problem is that many guys cannot, in their minds, combine the technical capabilities of BM as such and the methods of conducting a database in armed conflicts at the tactical and strategic levels at the same time. That is, as the saying goes, "open your eyes" and look a little further and wider than your own nose.
There are such driven patterns in their heads that the enemy will act only this way and not otherwise.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

The biggest problem is that many guys cannot combine technical capabilities in their minds

Yes, I agree, so it is. In general, the article dismantled everything and came to the conclusion that all technical superiority cannot be realized if the army is morally decomposed and there is no unity in the operation of commanding the troops. The result is a swan, cancer and pike.

[voyaka uh]

"Temporary solution. What kind of RPG-7 grenade? Where there is a PG-7VL" ////

Of course, temporary. As you arm a specific enemy with new weapons
protection also changes. But there is a certain basic minimum: currently it is an RPG-7.

As for electronic solutions: there is no determination of the coordinates of the target from the video, but there is by
flash, by portable radar, by sound.
For example, variants of the KAZ "windbreaker" calculate the coordinates of the missile launch and automatically
point the machine gun turret at this point. You can program and automatic shot.

[vladds]

good car

[brn521]

Quote: vladds

good car

But dear, this is the whole snag.

Quote: voyaka uh

But there is a certain basic minimum: currently it is an RPG-7.

But when it comes to the PG-7VR, passive armor will no longer solve the problem. Although you certainly do not have to choose, either a normal technique or coffins with a built-in crematorium function.

Quote: voyaka uh

As for electronic solutions: there is no determination of the coordinates of the target from the video, but there is from the flash

A flash than fixed?
I’m leading everything to what extent it’s really possible to turn up existing transport using conventional civilian technologies and components. The military industry produces finished devices and installations. And it is clear that they can be more effective. But they are very expensive by Russian standards. We use free conscripts, called up without fail, very much knocking down the prices we are willing to pay for military equipment. Plus there is still a problem called rospil dough. The more important and unique any development is, the fatter the bloodsuckers that will stick to it. As a result, only because of this, the cost of the product can exceed many times the cost of a similar civilian sample.
So the main option in my head: a computer system unit or two or three + divorced peripherals, monitors, cameras, microphones, control systems. Plus the ability to pick up other devices, if you can get it. Based on civilian components, it is less convenient and reliable to use than military specialized devices. But on the other hand, anyone will be able to mount, from what got and what hit, cost much cheaper, and it will be easier to upgrade.

[brn521]

Quote: voyaka uh

For example, variants of the KAZ "windbreaker" calculate the coordinates of the missile launch and automatically aim the machine gun turret at this point. You can also program an automatic shot.

KAZ uses components that you cannot buy in any store. For example, radar. In addition, the radar is both a plus and a minus, because unmasks the technique. Against Shtatovtsov radar is a gift, not a defense. And the possibilities are limited. Up to the point that they will come up with some cheap rubbish that can be used to smear a shot at an RPG, and no radar will detect it.
Let's take a more primitive option from a citizen. The iPad has a built-in camera, which, with 720p quality, is capable of delivering 120 frames / second. When fired from RPG7, the ammunition trajectory will be able to be unscrambled almost by meters. I wonder how many such frames will the home system unit need to select an object, determine its class and the intended trajectory? Of course, you need specialized software, but it can be developed and optimized gradually. The trick is something else, the system will be able to simultaneously perform other functions. Increase visibility, track other threats, including in conditions of limited visibility. And in general, if only there was a digital signal, computer programs can do a lot. For example, not just isolate objects, but build a three-dimensional model from them. Why might she need it. Well, for example, because of which, when protecting the columns, they do not use a continuous smoke screen, because put it like two fingers? I think because the visibility of the column itself will be blocked. And then there will be an option to switch to what the computer managed to recognize, eventually focusing on instruments. Also, this three-dimensional model can come in handy if you need to hang transport control purely on a computer. Add here the cost of the warriors. It’s one thing when they’ll kill the radar, and another when it’s just a camera or microphone. The computer will switch from dead to surviving, and then it will be possible to replace it later, just like a burned out light bulb. After all, we have two ways to protect the body kit: 1 - you are tormented to break, 2 - you can’t break everything. Well, you won’t put a lot of radars on one machine, and even make a carpet out of cameras and microphones, they cost the price of ammunition.

[voyaka uh]

I, too, with two hands for electronics. But still I will disappoint you: cheap for the price
no solutions. It’s not without reason that they spread crazy money for military electronics - boxes
withstand vibration, radiation, overheating, interference. Based on iPod you can do
all sorts of cool gadgets with camcorders. But to combine them with weapons, I would not
recommended.

[brn521]

Quote: voyaka uh

But still I’ll disappoint you: there are no cheap solutions for the price

I was not fascinated. When there are no cheap solutions, you need to take what is at hand. As computers moved to a new level of survivability, SSDs appeared instead of hard drives. The likelihood that the system will fail with a powerful shake has decreased. Therefore, I remembered that video surveillance system, which objects could determine, and aim at them.

Quote: voyaka uh

withstand vibration, radiation, overheating, interference

Yes, in your heat, it will be necessary to install water cooling or better oil cooling in the system unit. But it is solvable.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

After using WMD of any kind, the territory cannot be used for a long time due to contamination of the area, as well as living on it.

So the development of WMD just went towards reducing this side effect. The use of WMD is limited only at the political level. Its striking capabilities are too great with sudden aggression. But take, for example, a situation similar to the Second World War. Obviously, both sides would use all possible means to achieve victory or prevent defeat, including any available WMD. And our equipment, the same armored personnel carriers, was later developed for actions in the conditions of the use of WMD, and not for local conflicts. And it is WMD that is now stabilizing the overall foreign policy situation, otherwise the fourth or fifth world war would have already been waged. So never discount technical excellence in and of itself; it's always at stake. It just happens to be so large that it is not visible.

Quote: wanderer_032

And then the point is to fight at all? War for war?

For the sake of seizing territories and resources. Or for the sake of eliminating a potential adversary. For example, they specifically try to keep the Middle East closer to the Stone Age. Nobody needs a new player in the political arena, armed with the main spectrum of WMD. Also, the rest of the countries, which is simpler, can also periodically fall, for prevention, as soon as certain successes are achieved. Those who are at the very top benefit from destabilization in the rest of the world. So there were armed conflicts, are and will be. And WMD will one day begin to be applied too.

Quote: wanderer_032

when it comes to large-scale conflict. For example, this may be a raid motorized mechanized group by the number of drugs and equipment equal to MCP.

I’m talking about small-scale conflicts everywhere. For the reason that our equipment is not adapted to them. In the USSR, almost all tactics were built as if the minimum combat unit would be no less than a battalion. And those. assignments were set accordingly. Those. for action as part of a battalion. So it would be necessary to modify this technique somehow so that a sabotage group of 10 people could not so easily ditch a convoy of 10 cars. And the armored personnel carrier in these columns is usually involved as a guard. Everything else was carried on ordinary trucks as well. So this armored personnel carrier should work out to the fullest, without dying from the first wheel that got into the face of an RPG or torn off by an anti-tank mine. And at the same time, it should remain cheap to operate, and not turn into a tank.

Quote: wanderer_032

And your MRI will not help here

This is your argument on the principle: why do we need umbrellas, because when winter comes they will not help. I can answer that in Afghanistan and Chechnya it was not so much snow as rain, so we needed umbrellas.

Quote: wanderer_032

By the way, ukro-junta forces are being covered in the Donbas today.

This is not an army, but a rabble, worse than ours in the first Chechen one. So no technique will help.

[wanderer_032]

Quote: brn521

So it would be necessary to modify this technique somehow so that a sabotage group of 10 people could not so easily ditch a convoy of 10 cars.

So we came to the fact that MRAP is an armored car for occupational and punitive operations, and not a full-fledged military equipment. And they are intended only for actions against uneducated and near-by Aborigines from the underdeveloped countries of Asia, Africa and the Arabian Peninsula.
That is, for the enemy, in principle, unable to provide serious military opposition, and not because he does not have the equipment (at least some that can do a lot in skilled hands), but because he does not have properly trained personnel.
That's all.

[wanderer_032]

The general conclusions can be made as follows:

1. There is no doubt that it is necessary to increase the level of passive protection of equipment, but along with this, also increase the level of individual av-in protection for the soldiers themselves. What is already being done in principle.
2. It is also worth considering how rational it is to install on various types of BM electronic weapons and surveillance systems, as well as other various equipment. Install only what is really necessary, extra bells and whistles to anything. Because this can affect the capabilities of production and the timing of training personnel upon receipt of new equipment, which will directly affect the combat readiness of the aircraft as a whole.
3. Along with the aforementioned, it is necessary to place the main emphasis in the training of soldiers on combat and tactical training, that is, to develop tactical thinking and determination to fulfill their combat mission, by any possible means. So that our Armed Forces can protect the country in any, even the most unfavorable circumstances.

[schizophrenic]

Quote: wanderer_032

General conclusions can be made such

I agree, but most importantly, they forgot the morale of the troops, and without it, any equipment becomes a coffin or is in the hands of the enemy.

Something with the program I can only add a rating, once, the pros and cons when I put it, does not show.

[voyaka uh]

I would draw other conclusions.
Mine protection elements such as: V-shaped bottom, hanging chairs
always useful for any BM.
But only heavily armored vehicles should be brought into battle. AND
use the simplest MRAPs only for patrolling, reconnaissance and
bulkheads of soldiers in the near-front line. In an ambush - dismount
and scattered, leaving one machine gunner for cover.

[brn521]

Quote: voyaka uh

V-shaped bottom, hanging chairs are always useful for any BM.

That is the problem. I can’t defend myself against everything. Either from RPGs or from mines.

Quote: voyaka uh

But only heavily armored vehicles should be brought into battle.

That is yes. The USSR wrecked its obsolete tanks for all sorts of nonsense. Israel showed that of them it was quite realistic to make heavy infantry fighting vehicles.

[brn521]

Quote: wanderer_032

So we came to the fact that MRAP are armored vehicles for occupational and punitive operations

No matter how you call it (in Chechnya it’s still to see who punished whom), but if the troops are involved in this matter, then they need the appropriate equipment. So that with a chance of detonation at the head of the column roll MPAP, and not a suicide bomber.

Quote: wanderer_032

they are intended only for actions against uneducated and near-by Aborigines from the underdeveloped countries of Asia, Africa and the Arabian Peninsula.

Not for Aboriginal people. For any countries whose regular army was defeated. Or do you think that partisans are a purely Soviet invention? What is the easiest way to wage a guerrilla war? To undermine everything that is bad or badly rides.

[brn521]

Quote: Saburov

Well, firstly, no one rides armor in the city and dense buildings

Already not skate? So that's great. The first Chechen ride. Because how to escape at the speed of an armored personnel carrier, something did not work out, and to climb under the armor is somehow dumb.

Quote: Saburov

all the more cases of sniping people from armor, I don’t remember something

Yes, snipers will not master on a moving target (in general, it would be better to discuss such issues with snipers, and questions on the mechanics of explosions with explosives), except when shooting along a moving path. But when shelling a convoy with automatic weapons, they will surely injure someone or even kill them on the armor. Not to mention the shelling of fragmentation ammunition. True, there’s nothing to blame for the fighters in Afghanistan, because in the summer in this unfortunate old Soviet-made APC you will bake alive in the first minutes. But the USSR could not afford normal equipment, such as the https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuguar_ (armored personnel carrier), it barely carried out the plan for the main armored vehicles, tearing more and more.

Quote: Saburov

Do you really think that the USSR, having the colossal experience of a mine war, would not have thought of making a MRA-like machine?

The USSR didn’t think of much. He was not up to it.
So we pose the question differently. Do you really think that NATO was foolish about investing in the MDI? And all this was done only for cutting dough, and all sorts of different countries took into service or rented the same Cougars just because the United States had a knife to their throat?

Quote: Saburov

secondly, the shock wave at 10 kg of TNT calmly throws 36 tons, as I personally saw in the Hindu Kush mountains

Well, and the creators of MRI invent such machines that throws much less. And which at the same time save the lives of people. For us, these lives are fie, the conscript soldier is worth nothing and will not go anywhere from us. We order a bike ride under the bullets, will ride a bike. Otherwise, treason and blah blah blah. And for the West this is already a problem. For the dead and wounded it is necessary to pay sick insurance, just write off and forget will not work. And if there are many wounded and killed, insurance premiums will skyrocket. However, there is no way to force anyone into the army. With the Soviet approach, the NATO army would quickly become depopulated. I came across references that in the same USA there is already a shortage of people, there aren’t enough people, like there are 10 people in the staff, and 7 are available.

Quote: Saburov

have you seen Mrap This is a gift for a grenade launcher

In general, strange claims to the MPJ. It was as if a decree had been issued to replace all of our armored vehicles with them. The Israelis were fired by grenade launchers; in response, they made heavy infantry fighting vehicles with active defense systems. The Statesmen were undermined by road bombings, they made Cougar. The USSR dreamed of large-scale battles with comparable enemy armies. He made an armored personnel carrier. So nobody abandons the APC, our main weapon is still nuclear. And in such conditions, it will really take a lot of armored personnel carriers to shove more people over them. But if we again decide to organize police actions somewhere in the south, like an Afghan, driving a significant part of the population into partisans, we also need Cougar.

[brn521]

Quote: Saburov

Yes, and wheeled

Exactly that wheeled. Firstly, wheeled vehicles are much cheaper to operate. Therefore, we have an armored personnel carrier. Tracked APCs are for Lilliput countries in which you can spit from border to border. Secondly, the impact of a shock wave from a WU is weaker on a wheeled vehicle. The wheels are located less frequently, they have less resistance, and they come off easier, transferring less force to the body. The shock wave travels along the V-shaped bottom almost unhindered. How else to explain? In general, the caterpillars of an infantry fighting vehicle and tanks play a role such as a flare, like a hovercraft, therefore, the impact of a shock wave along their flat bottom is more effective than that of others. If you don’t believe me, well, I don’t know. Wrap the cleaver on the firecracker first with a butt, then with a blade, compare the results of the explosions. This will be a visual experiment demonstrating the behavior of a shock wave. Of course there is also brisance. Take a charge of 100 kg. How much will it be, well, about a cube of explosives with a side of 40cm. This means that brisance is approximately 80-120 cm. To what depth they will bury it is also a question, they can even stuff some sort into the collector, then you can forget about brisance. And if directly on the surface during a collision ... In our technique, the crew of the khan for sure. Merkava will turn over and the engine will grind for sure. Whether the shock wave will reach the crew is another question, but the Israelis boasted that such survivors would survive. Nobody really believes them. But about the same Cougar they also talk about 100 kg of explosives. It will open the hood, the wheel and engine will go into orbit, while the cabin itself is intact, and the crew is alive, if fastened, of course. Those. reduction of a powerful explosion to the level of a conventional accident. True, you have to pay extra for this with money, excess weight, low ground clearance and poor stability.

Quote: Saburov

therefore, they didn’t come up with a better trawl and the right tactics

Trawl reduces the speed of advance to 10-15 km / h. And the trawls normally work only with standard mine weapons. But there is only one correct tactic - do not interfere in small-scale conflicts, if you do not understand. And since they intervened, then learn from those who have become proficient in them.
Tactics is not a thing in itself; it must be based on something specific. On the BTR-80, or here, on this same MPAP, for example.

Quote: Saburov

and if after that even with RPGs start to peck? Anti-RPP defense

Of course. I repeat, they do not have extra people, unlike us.

Quote: Saburov

the presence of intelligence, the competent work of glanders, the secrecy of travel routes, practically reduces the mine war to zero

That's right, not a single hotbed is alive with a single meter. Or is it a proposal to completely abandon armored vehicles? After all, there is intelligence, sappers, secrecy ... All this will certainly provide us with peace and grace, it will be possible to ride Lada and Kamaz trucks everywhere.

[psiho117]

Quote: brn521

take, for example, a situation similar to the Second World War. Obviously, both sides would use all possible means to achieve victory or prevent defeat, including any available WMD

You're not right. All the warring parties had weapons of mass destruction - chemical, and the japs ​​also had bacteriological weapons.
At what the Germans had a significant advantage - against obsolete mustard gas, phosgene and chlorocyanine / hydrocyanic acid, which are in service with the Red Army and the Allied forces, they had stocks and established production of the latest nerve-paralytic sarin, herd, and from the 44th also soman .
The effectiveness of their application is orders of magnitude superior to conventional weapons systems.

But, as you can see, none of the parties have used their chem. an arsenal.

[brn521]

Quote: psiho117

But, as you can see, none of the parties have used their chem. arsenal

If about the fact that from the very beginning they didn’t start to make fun of each other, then I know that I haven’t noticed this. There was an agreement, and it was fulfilled, because today you are craving along the front sector, securing an advantage for yourself, tomorrow you will be surrendered directly to the most important industrial city. Well, then, as they say, they would be happy, but late. This is not like now, with tactical nuclear weapons, where nuclear weapons can be stored in a garage and transported in a passenger car.
We covered most of the production and lost some of the warehouses. Plus, since we are winners, the relevant documentation has not surfaced. As for the Germans, similarly. When the eastern fronts began to crumble, Germans of the type would be glad to use, if only there were problems with delivery vehicles, the railways were mostly paralyzed.
In terms of biological weapons, it’s kind of like the Japanese themselves could not achieve acceptable results. They could not bring out controlled strains that could be produced and used in large quantities, without fear and themselves cured of their own weapons.

[waggish]

Impressed, well done!