MIC

"This is a lot of money, so there is no need to buy junk"

The military-industrial complex as a whole is pleased with itself, but Russian President Medvedev does not think so. He calls to think what huge budget money is going to cost and compare prices with foreign ones.


Recently, Dmitry Medvedev held a working meeting on the implementation of state orders in the defense industry. Next to him were Serdyukov, the Minister of Defense, who acted as the buyer, and also Ivanov, the vice-premier, who can be considered the seller. Medvedev, according to different versions, conducted a mediation session or confrontation in order to settle the dispute. The president took the position of Serdyukov, who refuses to buy low-quality equipment for public money.

Understanding Medvedev is difficult in another way. A statement appeared on its official website, where quite logical things are noted. The economy is no longer Soviet, and therefore the Ministry of Defense needs to carefully examine each contract in order to check how profitable it is. Since the modern army does not have gigantic support, you should not buy all sorts of garbage for these modest resources. According to Medvedev, if the price is not satisfactory, you must either place the contracts in other national companies or buy them abroad. This will be useful not only in terms of savings. Sensing the market, manufacturers will have to work on the quality of the product, and not justify the high prices with exclusivity and unique developments, which is not true.

The departments are indeed closed, but the information still leaked out through the barriers because of the General Designer and Director of the RK Bulava, Yuri Solomonov. He complained that due to certain officials, the state order was being sabotaged. But in order to understand the conflict of the Ministry of Defense, there is little public data, it is necessary to take into account a number of details related to this topic. Weapon paid from the budget of the country, which is formed including at the expense of money of ordinary citizens.

Firstly, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, our defense industry was able to survive only through the export of its products. It has long been "addicted" to export prices. The cost of production, among which are submarines, rockets, Tanks, planes unknown: departments sacredly keep this secret. Serdyukov must have only a superficial idea of ​​these amounts. And Russia simply cannot buy tanks at the same price at which they are sold to a potential enemy.

Secondly, the Russian defense industry, unlike the foreign one, relies on the scientific base of the Soviet Union, releasing the modernized weapons of that era. And for that time it was great, but now, alas, outdated. Unfortunately, many developments were not implemented due to poor preparation. But to produce equipment without electronic systems, without modern equipment is irrational, because it will not be able to win in the technological battle. Yes, and cost such a “filling” may be more expensive than the iron “bun”. This is what makes Serdyukov outraged: a huge price with poor quality.

Third, we also inherited from the Soviet Union an outdated military doctrine, in accordance with which it was necessary to prepare for a global war. It is under her adapted most of the development, produced today. Army theorists of those years believed that if a nuclear war began, tanks, aircraft, and motorized infantry would not survive for long. And because they have a very low engine life, and the comfort of movement is minimal. Of course, such developments were significantly cheaper than imported counterparts. But if you look at the costs for the future, the maintenance of such equipment is more expensive than buying weapons abroad. Given that the price is almost caught up with Western appetites, buying low-quality equipment, at least, is irrational.

To verify these theses, you can consider a simple example. The T-90 tank costs almost as much as its import equivalent Leopard-2. That's just its technical characteristics are not comparable with Western competitors. Modern German tanks pass thousands of kilometers without breaking 4.5. As for the T-90, less than half of the models are able to overcome a thousand kilometers without repairs. Leopard-2 has a diesel engine from Mercedes and uses 100 liters for 240 kilometers, weighing tons in 62.

The T-90 weighs 46,5 tons, but consumes 350 liters of fuel per hundred kilometers. With long-term storage, in two years, only half of Russian tanks can “start”. As for the comfort of movement, it is a completely different planet. Changing the engine in the field, the Germans will take 20 minutes, and they can diagnose on the spot. To fix the T-90, you have to spend a few hours in the repair battalion. Find the cause of failure can only be using the factory stand.

For comparison, the cost of the T-90C (export version of the T-90A) is on average 2-2,5 million dollars apiece. Only Chinese derivatives from T-72 are cheaper. According to various sources, Chinese VT1A stands on the foreign market 1,4-1,8 million dollars. In turn, the Polish PT-91M can be bought for 2,7-3 million dollars, and the Ukrainian T-84U, according to various sources, for 2,5-4 million dollars (the cost of one tank for Thailand, according to preliminary data, will be 1,2 million dollars). True, speaking of the prices of military products, one should not forget about the principle of "discounts for regular and wholesale customers."

16.04.2011 "Solid Contradictions
On export sales of Russian tanks "
http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2011/04/16/tanks/


A vivid example only underlines the general trend. The BMP-3, which is released to the stream, has excellent technical characteristics, but in reality it will hardly reach St. Petersburg from Moscow on its own. If the machine serves the entire due time, then no more than 4 people can master control on the resource of a single piece of equipment.

The words of the president, who actually authorized the purchase of military equipment in foreign firms, are unprecedented for the industry. They are exactly the opposite show the situation that was with the domestic auto industry. Instead of releasing a competitive product, officials raised import duties on cars, banned right-hand drive Japanese cars, and spent huge amounts of money on maintaining life in a dying factory. Now negotiations are underway to give AvtoVAZ at a reasonable price concern Renault-Nissan.

It was this sobering calculation that caused the conflict between the defense industry and the authorities. After all, an unsuccessful technique needs not only to learn, overpaying big money. It can be used in case of military conflicts. However, we are not ready to sell defense industry enterprises: this will be negatively perceived by society. The Mistral, the landing craft, was purchased mainly for propaganda purposes, in order to show our competitors to our monopolists. However, the “domestic manufacturer” in a number of positions has no real rivals: there is nowhere else to buy the same strategic missiles.

It should be understood that the restructuring of the mentality goes on for a long time, even if we consider it on the example of the automotive industry. First, statements followed, then new legislation, and only after that concrete steps by ministers.

Unfortunately, the words Medvedev can sink into oblivion. However, the interests of the army overlap here. Our military-industrial complex is morally obsolete, and only certain steps of power can move the situation from a dead center. They propose, for example, to open a military budget, which did not find understanding among the military. But this is a normal practice for Western countries, including the United States.

After this, it is necessary to adopt laws that would help to bring the defense industry to the market plane, to make sure that there is healthy competition. This is a very difficult task, next to which the transformation of the police into the police seems like a child's play. But if you do not do this, then the cost of purchasing weapons will in no way match the quality of the supplied solutions. And this is a very expensive task that can require huge money. Moreover, the reform of the defense industry does not always find mutual understanding in society.

By itself, the fact that, at our defense enterprises, even theoretically, “junk” can be produced, should become the object of not just research, but the work-around and alarms throughout the chain. And we must not punish the ruble of negligent suppliers, but delve into the problems and ensure that our plants can supply quality at a reasonable price.

Instead, it is suggested that in the supermarket it is possible to go around all the shelves and choose what you like. The killer logic.

Procurement of foreign weapons is a reasonable measure, when it replaces for a while what we do not yet have. But at the same time - if the need arose - you need to build your own and begin production of your equipment. Not because we have special pride, but because it is so reasonable.
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  1. Rashid 18 July 2011 09: 54 New
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    It’s strange how it turns out - our equipment is bad, but many countries buy it. Is this really possible, because competitiveness in the world market is a very important indicator of product quality.
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 10: 26 New
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      The issue of quality in the field of procurement of military equipment is unfortunately not in the first place now. More than half of the sales of military equipment to not very civilized countries come from kickbacks and political leverage.
    2. dmitri077
      dmitri077 27 January 2012 16: 22 New
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      our equipment is mainly in "poverty" for our money. Even Chavez buys Russian equipment for Russian loans .. laughter and sin
  2. Max79 18 July 2011 09: 57 New
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    In comparison with the West, the quality is terrible. You need to understand that you can’t do normal equipment on machines manufactured in the 40-60s. And you need good equipment to do it! Nobody will invest in normal equipment! You need to learn someone to work on good machines, but there’s no one to teach. I myself worked on CNC and I know that young people simply don’t go to production fundamentally. And I also left, due to untimely and low payments, although not too young and seemingly not old. Yes, and it became not prestigious to work on the machine.
    Therefore, what quality can we talk about? wassat
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 10: 50 New
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      By the way, he worked at several radio-electronic defense plants in Kharkov as a trainee. On almost all of them, machine tools exported from Germany after the war are fully featured. And these were plants that did not make stools but military satellites and their parts were assembled. True, there were relatively modern CNCs, too, but if anyone knows what CNCs are based on the "Electronics 60" computer, then calling this modern language does not turn out much, but they are doing their job.
    2. Klibanophoros 20 July 2011 02: 46 New
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      But still meeting modern requirements, do not blame The Soviet industrial complex for its backwardness, at one time it was ahead of this green - planet of the whole ...
  3. merkawa
    merkawa 18 July 2011 10: 45 New
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    We have a habit from the past, if only it was accepted into service, and there they’ll take junk and don’t get anywhere signed and printed everywhere and everywhere. You see whether they have a monopoly. They don’t look at the calendar wassat
  4. go_by
    go_by 18 July 2011 10: 54 New
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    The quality of industrial products is artificially underestimated. The auto industry is a good example. Write off everything to the "difficulties of the transition period" can only booby king of heaven.
    1. Eric
      Eric 19 July 2011 19: 31 New
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      In! Good idea! Will explain!

      I believe that everything everywhere rotted kickbacks everywhere!

      The legacy of the USSR is a strong military-industrial complex! Which is a competitor to a certain group of people and a splinter in certain states in the BACK! :)

      The bottom line!

      My thinking is a rotten country + military industrial complex (the foremost in the world) = rotten military industrial complex from this, some kind of uncle over the hill crosses out a competitor in his list, and some state takes out a threat and a splinter and asses!

      How could I forgive you! :)

      In general, we ourselves are pushing our military-industrial complex in the ass! With your thoughts! And he is normal!
  5. Evgan
    Evgan 18 July 2011 11: 02 New
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    I can’t get it. Either "Less than half of the T-90 are able to cover 1000 km without breakdowns," then "The T-90 is superior in reliability to all modern tanks, which is shown by test results in different climatic conditions."
    Where is the truth?
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 11: 15 New
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      Samples that drove in Arabia and those that are supplied in parts are slightly different in terms of quality. Such machines are usually assembled from so-called selected parts. The good news is that the tank is designed intelligently and has a margin to increase reliability by improving production discipline and combating marriage, and not by means of the kulibins from army workshops.
      And all military equipment breaks down, including German. It’s just that for some armies this is not a big problem due to a well-established service system, and some have to abandon equipment and sometimes even undermine it.
    2. Professor 18 July 2011 11: 23 New
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      It’s like Kamaz at the Paris-Dakar rally and a serial truck for the collective farmer.
      1. slan
        slan 18 July 2011 22: 33 New
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        Oh, come on, professor))) Maybe like Lotus Renault and Renault Megan?
        These are different cars, if you did not know;)
        1. Professor 19 July 2011 10: 16 New
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          And I about it. The tank participating in the tests abroad was moved to a screw by a team of specialists no worse than those that accompany the Paris-Dakar rally. Let the production model be launched from the assembly line, and even with the driver Vasya Pupkin ...
          1. slan
            slan 19 July 2011 20: 06 New
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            No, you are completely different. The design of the rally truck is completely different, most likely there is not a single serial part.
            And the design is 2/3 of reliability. Here Abrams sort out, do not sort out far will not go, even though put gold parts on it. Perhaps the T-90 tender sample was collected especially carefully .. and that’s not a fact, rather, a simple “pre-sale preparation” is not very deep. By the way, the best quality parts are produced commercially using well-established technology. And yet, the design of the T-72 was originally designed for a low culture of mass production, so that ultra-low tolerances on parts with manual polishing by bike scarves are useless. A frank marriage except on serial products .. Yes it is possible, but I don’t trust this article specifically, but rather everything that is written there in fact is exactly the opposite, it’s too frankly biased.
            1. Professor 20 July 2011 09: 13 New
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              Accepted, thanks.
  6. Professor 18 July 2011 11: 17 New
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    I wonder where such information comes from.
    Here Spain paid 8 million Euro apiece.
    Canada $ 5.7 million.
  7. Klibanophoros 18 July 2011 11: 17 New
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    Hmmm ... The storyline of the article is easy to understand - "the defense industry has snickered on export and has become numb in its development, and if so, it is better to buy imported ..."
    It is interesting if Medveder with a Stool would try to say this in person to the Scientific Advisers, Directors of the Design Bureau, ITR specialists, and simply to the surviving workers their thoughts in person. No need to talk about how the military-industrial complex survived in the 90s, I think. And now, enterprises with broken technological ties that have shrunk threefold, compared with Soviet times, with retired workers and the same designers say: run on time, we won’t buy otherwise! The fact that our military-industrial complex is alive and capable of producing military equipment can generally be considered a miracle! Does our dwarf white-lawyer understand that all the money is deposited in Rosoboronexport and the like vampire structures created by the Bialowieza authorities, but 5-6% of orders reach the factories, or even nothing at all?
    Apparently not his leisure to do it ...
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 12: 34 New
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      I believe that defense exports are necessary even when there is an adequate domestic order. Bo taking into account the fact that there is no competition within the country, the only place where manufacturing companies find themselves in a competitive environment is the foreign market. Moreover, we know about the very successful development of the military-industrial complex created with sharpening for the foreign market, for example, Shell.
    2. Eric
      Eric 19 July 2011 19: 33 New
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      Understands and even share!
  8. Professor 18 July 2011 11: 18 New
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    The T-90 tank costs almost as much as its imported counterpart, the Leopard-2.


    I wonder where such information comes from.
    Here Spain paid 8 million Euros for Leopard.
    Canada $ 5.7 million.
    1. petor41
      petor41 18 July 2011 19: 21 New
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      I agree, the figures are taken from the ceiling, because the article is custom! Go to an arms exhibition, for example, in Nizhny Tagil, there drooling at the sight of military equipment and weapons, and its quality can be poor for only one reason — corruption that the country's leadership and the Minister of Defense in particular!
  9. mitrich
    mitrich 18 July 2011 12: 24 New
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    I am here on the side of the "bear-stool" (according to the NATO classification). Moreover, a week ago I read an interview with the Minister of Defense, where he logically substantiated the Ministry’s claims to the quality and timing of equipment supplies to the troops.
    You can not and do not know how - buy abroad. And there is no corruption and anti-patriotism here. And that’s how the military-industrial complex will “devour” the entire state budget, without any hope of success. That's how much we get together on this forum because of the "Mistral", they say, and we can build ourselves. Can we? “Gorshkova”, sorry, “Vikramaditye”, we’ve been “modernizing” almost the 10th year for India, and the ship’s delivery deadlines are postponed every year.
    There are questions, of course, such as Iveco - Tiger, but in general, the defenders are not right. In this way, the army will not rearm until 2020. And then they are used to driving products abroad at dumping prices, and for the native army to “charge” such a cost of cars - at least stand, even fall!
    1. His
      His 18 July 2011 23: 33 New
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      Deep delusion. Just Medvedev is very far from real affairs, he is a former teacher, that he knows in thoughtfulness and technique. He even distances himself from ordinary people. That’s why he conceived it against the interests of the people
  10. classicist2001
    classicist2001 18 July 2011 13: 13 New
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    Why break in the T-90? The engine and chassis have been tested and produced for decades. The only problems that the Indian T-90 had were the failure of the thermal imaging electronics due to the heat and lack of air conditioning in the tank. But these complexes are French-made. By the way, in 1991, the Syrian T-72s (supposedly assembled on the machines of the 40s and 50s) went under their own power over 700 kilometers to Iraq and entered the battle from the march. Moreover, during the march, not a single tank failed! At the "Abrams", after 50-100 kilometers of the march, the GTE flew due to dust and sand. The same problems were in 2003.

    The industry is also to blame, which raises prices while trying to earn the maximum and the army, which (1) is not able to develop clear requirements about what is needed and with what characteristics and (2) tends to order what is cheaper (for example, in 1990- At the Uralvagonzavod, several prototypes of the new Object 187 tank were developed, but the least sophisticated and the cheapest - today's T-90) went into the series.
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 13: 34 New
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      I think that if the army decided to purchase the conditional “Object 187”, then there would be an order of magnitude more failures, and there were a hundred objective reasons for this. Most of the advantages and disadvantages of the T-90 are due precisely to the fact that it was run in 30 years before the last screw. The longer the deep modernization of Russia's MBT will be postponed, the harder it will be to enter the troops, and yet it will have to be done. We all know the history of the introduction of the T-64 line into the troops. The 80th was much more sophisticated, but it was already introduced relatively easily, as the platform was run-in. And the fact that in the 90th there are problems with electronics is so natural, because its electronic filling is half of its differences from the t-72.
      1. classicist2001
        classicist2001 19 July 2011 02: 06 New
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        On more advanced versions of the "Object 187" there was a welded tower, which is more expensive to manufacture, but better holds hits and additional built-in DZ. You can see the information on

        http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w4/021_187.htm

        So it's not about electronics.

        The early T-64 had problems with the engine and chassis, which were successfully resolved, although it took quite a while. The T-80 has a different chassis and a gas turbine engine instead of a diesel engine, so your comparison of the T-64 and T-80 is not entirely correct. The hull, turret and weapons of the T-80 meet those of the T-64B.
        1. Superduck
          Superduck 20 July 2011 10: 48 New
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          Yes, but imagine that 64 wasn’t and would begin to enter immediately 80y.
          And "Object 187" is a cookie once a similar option, there is still a star-shaped drive to enter for complete happiness left.
  11. penal battalion
    penal battalion 18 July 2011 13: 47 New
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    without major repairs, so "Abrams" (USA) - 19 thousand kilometers.
    wink
    Is this a technical description or parfuma oriflame? repeat
    In the magazine "Model Designer" a more technical description, plus the facts of combat use. But the point is that after the execution of Saddam in Iraq, more than 200 abrams were irretrievably lost.
    When the chassis was broken, the tank was blown up so that no one would get it. It’s impossible to tow this fool, and if it is scattered in the steppe, then you need to lay a concrete track to it to load and take on a trailer wink
    An unguided rocket like a firework similar to a shovel from a $ 200 shovel pierces this target for $ 10 million THROUGH .... into the frontal armor of a tower repeat
  12. makrus
    makrus 18 July 2011 15: 09 New
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    Medvedev and Serdyukov are right about the market. Of course, it’s cheaper to buy 500 leopards than to engage in industrial modernization issues. Well, BULGARIA drowned and - removed - with it, we will buy MESTRALS. And we will argue that our factories can’t bring modern technology ... UGLY ... the only thing we do is feed the army of officials and businessmen who do not want to invest in their own country. We work on the whole sovetskiy (ABOUT AVIATION IS SILENT AT ALL, AIRCRAFT ON AVERAGE FOR 30 YEARS). The foreign exchange reserve is huge, but we are not building new plants. OUR COUNTRY HUGE PROBLEM THIS IS MODERNIZATION OF PRODUCTION.
    “We don’t know how to do it ourselves, we’ll buy” THIS IS NOT OUR SLOGAN AND THIS IS A DEADLOCK.
  13. mitrich
    mitrich 18 July 2011 15: 24 New
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    MAKRUS,
    I am not the ultimate truth, and I do not insist on my own righteousness. However, this whole situation reminds me of a joke about a black man who was given a finger, and he strives to grab his hand. By "black" I mean the defense industry.
    The amers won a contract with Russia for the supply of several dozen helicopters, allegedly for the Afghan army, did not hesitate, however, it is not audible to attend to the training of Afghan crews. But they themselves signed up for "driving courses" in the Russian Federation. I won’t be surprised if Afghans leave their junk and fly away on our helicopters.
    The world is globalizing, economies too, why be shy if you don’t have enough of your own brains or strength?
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 15: 32 New
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      Although the Yankees have their own helicopters (thanks to the Sikorsky), nothing is true, though in the conditions of the high-altitude Mi-8, of course, there is little that can be surpassed, especially on modern engines. In Afghanistan, they will fly on them and will be, it’s both cheaper and more reliable, then they will fly out the resource - they will leave the Taliban friendly to spray opium :-)
  14. Esso
    Esso 18 July 2011 15: 29 New
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    Another nonsense. The author of the article does not understand many things. Firstly, we have in the military-industrial complex
    market economy, secondly, during the period of total theft in Serdyukov’s department, enterprises need money for employees' salaries, new developments. And we have the whole element base that you dear President want. The author clearly does not understand tanks. FIELD CONDITIONS.
    These tanks are inferior in driving performance to our T-90. I agree that it eats more fuel. Ukrainian diesel is objectively better. Maybe it's time to switch to it.
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 18 July 2011 15: 38 New
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      I apologize, but the Kharkiv 6TD is inferior in fuel efficiency to the classic V-92, as befits any two-stroke. True, since the curve of the dependence of torque on engine revolutions at 6TD is more interesting, the difference is not so noticeable on a real machine either. At the same time, the power reserve of 84 is less than that of the 90th but more than that of the 80ka turbine. However, 84 are heavier than both of them. In short, fuel consumption is not the most important advantage of the 6TD :-)
      Yes, and MTO in Leo2 is made according to the standard if I am not mistaken in 30 minutes, on the 90th 3 hours (so as not to lie), 6TD in this regard is certainly a fairy tale in this regard.
      1. PSih2097 18 July 2011 16: 08 New
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        Fuel consumption in the army is not a critical indicator. IMHO
        1. Superduck
          Superduck 18 July 2011 16: 34 New
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          Quote: PSih2097
          Fuel consumption in the army is not a critical indicator. IMHO

          And the cruising range of the tank is critical :-)
      2. Joker
        Joker 18 July 2011 16: 10 New
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        I heard about this nuance:

        At 6TD due to the lack of direct drive of the compressor, a large output power, i.e. 6TD 1000l.s. corresponds to approximately 1200l.s. "B-92" (in the sense of V6).
        1. Superduck
          Superduck 18 July 2011 16: 37 New
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          In addition, a 6TD-2 engine with a differential compressor drive was created, in which part of the power to the compressor impeller drive comes from the crankshaft, and part from the turbine shaft. A differential drive engine is essentially a new engine in the air supply sector. Comparative tests of 6TD-2 engines with full-time and differential drives showed that at the latter the increase in cross-country speed by 10%, the decrease in travel fuel consumption by 6%, and the maximum speed by 12%.

          Thus, it is proved that the design of the compressor drive affects the mobility of the tank and the engine with a differential drive of 1200 hp. equivalent to an engine with a power of 1400 ... 1500 hp with hard drive compressor.

          I am not a dvigatelist because for what I bought - for that I sold.
  15. PSih2097 18 July 2011 16: 06 New
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    In my opinion, very good. A successful version of the reform of the military-industrial complex was laid out by a man about the AK 200 series, but it is valid for the entire military-industrial complex:
    Do I need to give 3.14 passengers at the factory, demonstratively quartering a couple of military representatives? I guess so.
  16. Goldpirat
    Goldpirat 18 July 2011 16: 17 New
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    The strange logic “Make it better, otherwise we will buy in the West” smacks of shock therapy! And if the military-industrial complex does not survive in such conditions .......... What, then they will run like a fire and spend a bunch of dough to save at least something, right now if they release something, let it be that something like the UKSC against i8086, but then this may not be the case either. Just as computers did not pay attention to the USSR in their time, almost all modern microelectronics were covered by something, right now everyone is sitting with American computers, the same thing will happen to the defense industry.
  17. mitrich
    mitrich 18 July 2011 16: 26 New
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    I read that the purchase of "Mistral" is a gift to the homeland from one influential and not poor oligarch who has his interests in France. If this is the case, then there is nothing to worry and dog. It will not be worse, since the purchase was not paid out of public pocket.
    I would like to read the opinion of a more informed Vladimir, if he is on the air.
    1. PSih2097 18 July 2011 16: 32 New
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      I join, VLADIMIR post your opinion.
  18. Sergius
    Sergius 18 July 2011 16: 37 New
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    ABRAMS, by no means, will be able to drive 19 thousand kilometers with its engine for a resource of 1000 hours. BMP 3 will be able to get to Vladivostok if I don’t remove the spare parts, I cannibalize the equipment to maintain at least part of it in working condition, and so it can continue. The author seems to be just lying openly trying to justify the actions of Serdyukov and Co. to purchase weapons in the West, their children live in England, Switzerland, Monaco, the USA, etc. The more they earned, the longer they can live there! Until 2020, the Russian army will not live under such leadership; there will be neither soldiers nor equipment in it.
    1. PSih2097 18 July 2011 16: 45 New
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      after 2020, private offices such as Blackwater will steer it, it is Xe Services LLC and the rest ... In the West, they have long understood this and are fully using it, we don’t even think about it ...
  19. Kotovsky
    Kotovsky 18 July 2011 16: 42 New
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    Sneaky little article. There is no competitive environment. There is corruption and betrayal. A simple example. The Ministry of Defense purchased sets of field camps of the German company "Karcher", which can withstand frost only up to 17 degrees. This is in Russia! At the same time, they categorically refused to buy exactly the same Russian kits, at a price THREE cheaper and able to withstand frosts of 40 degrees and warm people.
    The story was noisy, everyone knew everything, spoke, wrote and protested.
    But for big money bought a German schise.
    Because the policy has been taken towards rapprochement with Germany and the interconnection of economies. True, the Germans offended by the Quadriga. Ungrateful disadvantages!
    1. MichaelVl
      MichaelVl 18 July 2011 22: 19 New
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      Kotovsky,
      Quadriga not only "offended" Putin, they decided not to give anyone this year. There, in my opinion, there were 4 more candidates. So the VP, so to speak, did NOT fall under the general distribution :)
  20. spirit 18 July 2011 17: 31 New
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    I’m just forging from them !!! this balmy shit that they call a presenter can’t even make the oil industry invest their billions in the construction of refineries and pipelines, to say nothing of the military-industrial complex. If you want quality, buy back a full package of shares of leading enterprises, invest and create internal competition.
  21. Emilia
    Emilia 18 July 2011 17: 38 New
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    It turns out interestingly. Does the president and government lobby the interests of foreign companies? Maybe they are foreigners? First, the domestic military-industrial complex collapsed, and now they demand that our enterprises compete on equal terms with foreign companies without any support or subsidies from the state. And the purchase of Mistral for such a huge amount of money just for propaganda purposes, isn't it bold? And the fact that the army was entrusted to lead the merchandiser-marketer is not a mockery of the army? And the fact that Kudrin constantly slows down the financing of the military-industrial complex, does the president not care?
    1. MichaelVl
      MichaelVl 18 July 2011 22: 21 New
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      Emilia,
      Did you get all these questions back? :)
  22. Fray
    Fray 18 July 2011 20: 04 New
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    “To verify these theses, we can consider a simple example. The T-90 tank costs almost as much as its imported analogue“ Leopard-2. ”But its technical characteristics are not comparable with Western competitors. Modern German tanks pass without damage to 4.5 thousand kilometers. With regard to the T-90, less than half of the models can cover a thousand kilometers without repair. "Leopard-2" has a diesel engine from a Mercedes and consumes 100 liters per 240 kilometers, weighing 62 tons. "

    It’s the same as the Soviet Union would translate before the war with Germany
    their KV and T-34 on Daimler engines, because they have higher motor resources.

    Whatever this leads to is not hard to guess ..

    Russia cannot afford to depend on the technique of a potential adversary![
  23. datur 18 July 2011 20: 06 New
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    conclusion after reading this article - stools and others like them went on the attack on the military-industrial complex in order to finish off.
  24. kazanskii
    kazanskii 18 July 2011 20: 14 New
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    Our president is only concerned about what they write about him on Twitter. He would read our comments, maybe he would think about where the country is heading.
    1. petor41
      petor41 18 July 2011 20: 51 New
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      The most amazing thing is that he reads them, though in a concise, generalized form, which the president’s administration does to him, but nonetheless!
      1. Joker
        Joker 18 July 2011 21: 58 New
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        And where is the guarantee that he will hear "all salt" and not "generalized conclusions"?
    2. PSih2097 18 July 2011 23: 41 New
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      Our president is only concerned about what they write about him on Twitter. He would read our comments, maybe he would think about where the country is heading.

      Or he would give the prosecutor’s task to find out if this site is extremist, if so, to identify individuals by IP and hold them accountable ...
  25. figwam 18 July 2011 22: 03 New
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    The article is completely false and ordered, the facts are not true.
  26. PSih2097 18 July 2011 23: 54 New
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    The purchase of foreign weapons is a reasonable measure when it replaces for a while what we do not yet have.

    But at the same time - if the need arose - you need to build your own and begin to release your equipment. Not because we have a special pride, but because it is so reasonable.

    the most reasonable part of the article.
    About the military-industrial complex, I wrote above, I repeat:
    It is necessary to give 3.14 passengers at the factory, demonstratively quartering a couple of military representatives, while introducing GB officers who will monitor the process, conduct the investigation (not garbage), and raise responsibility by an order of magnitude (remember WWI).
  27. Rustam 19 July 2011 01: 05 New
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    good article !!!! In some ways, I don’t agree with the example of dry and our helicopters at altitude and air defense systems, but they need to shake things up about other complexes and industries, otherwise they will build corvettes for 8 years and push the T-90a tanks that cost in 2007, 42 MILLION RUBLES A NOW 103 and everything is fine there is no competition, but our leopards would buy 300 pieces and you can compare, you say the Uralvagonzavod will present the T-90AM in the fall and progress, but how many defense ministries have been achieving this since the end of 2008 (the automatic air conditioner finally appeared and etc. But they don’t give a damn about the soldiers dying from the heat as in a gas chamber
    because with the generals they are for one thing and they’re sawing our hard-earned money in their pocket, here’s an example for the repair of Peter the Great, 360 million stars were allocated to the director of the asterisk 260 and one hundred pounds someone = signed a certificate of repair from the Navy !!!!
    I am not against our military industrial complex, but it needs to be shaken well (directors managers) workers are a pity they usually get a penny
    1. PSih2097 19 July 2011 01: 55 New
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      vaunted triumph, still with missiles from the S-300PMU
    2. Professor 19 July 2011 12: 10 New
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      If it’s not difficult to find out where the information about the automatic transmission air conditioning?
      1. Joker
        Joker 19 July 2011 12: 18 New
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        Kondei stand on almost all T-90s of the Indian series (except for the very first ones), which means that if the MILITARY CUSTOMER decides what is necessary, then the tanks will go with them.

        About the machine I am also interested to know.

        Do not shit on the military-industrial complex, by and large, as they say they are in that configuration and produce.
  28. Draz 19 July 2011 01: 45 New
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    It would be better, instead of Mistral, Filin, Iveco, Leopard, to invest in our machine tool industry, and give loans to enterprises not only in the military-industrial complex, but in the whole industry for the re-equipment of new machines.
    It is better to be a competitor in the world market in the "basic" industries: machine tool building, electronics, metallurgy, etc. And there will be new developments, new alloys, new microcircuits, etc.

    Another thing, the results will be at least only in 5-10 years. A technique is needed now. This is one side of the issue. The other is that due to the bureaucratic apparatus, this may drag on for more years to 2-5.

    As many have already written, more than once, the defense industry has long been saying that there are no specific orders from the army. They do not know what characteristics are needed, therefore, developments go on a wide range and more money is spent on this, hence the costs.

    And yet, our Ministry of Defense complains about our prices, which are world prices, so to speak, because our weapons in the world market still have serious competition, since when did he decide that Leopards would not be sold to us at world prices, and why on earth would non-state companies give a discount to a state that had bolted this very military-industrial complex for more than 10 years and it survived on its own. This is a human point of view.

    There is a political side to the issue, both internal and external. The purchase of military equipment from a NATO member is:
    1) Rapprochement with Germany, and one can also consider such a bun in the face of a crisis, since we all read about the troubles of the Bundeswehr and Germany in general. I think Europe already understands that NATO will soon become an alliance on paper, because of the crisis, there are reductions in the strongest armed forces after the US, not to mention the fact that most NATO members do not allocate funds at all to support their army in accordance with the membership agreement . The Balts, in general, think that they will have US bases and are not moving in any way.
    2) As with Mistral, this will further shake the alliance, already cracking at the seams, how much stench was from the USA and the Baltic states about Mistral.
    3) There are a lot of messages in our mass media, which is not typical for Russia in a similar topic, if they write, it means they gave the go-ahead, if they gave the go-ahead, then it’s necessary.
    As a result of the reforms and everything else in the media, the Minister of Defense has been practically demonized. Soon the election, I put a box of beer that the favorite in the presidential race will scream that he will dismiss him, there will be courts, blah blah blah, a bright future for the army. Provocation for hamsters.
    4) This is really shock therapy, so that our MIC can move faster. Another question about methods.
    5) There is a deliberate pouring of feces on our military-industrial complex as incapable in order to prepare the public for a serious purchase of weapons from NATO, saying that all the military-industrial complex have been snickering and are doing nothing.
    1. PSih2097 19 July 2011 01: 53 New
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      As a result of the reforms and everything else in the media, the Minister of Defense has been practically demonized. Soon the election, I put a box of beer that the favorite in the presidential race will scream that he will dismiss him, there will be courts, blah blah blah, a bright future for the army. Provocation for hamsters.

      I think there will be a promise to shoot him live ...
    2. volodjachess
      volodjachess 19 July 2011 13: 25 New
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      6) Gradually prepare for the fact that the defense industry enterprises must be privatized.
  29. Draz 19 July 2011 01: 58 New
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    There is also an opinion that a policy is being pursued when we pretend to be weak.
    If you draw parallels, it is clear that NATO is bursting at the seams, all members except the US are cutting their spending and are not willing to participate in conflicts in which the United States is drawing them. The contention around the 08.08.08 war, the war in Libya, the purchase of the Mistral (how much stench was from the USA and the Baltic states). To give the United States the opportunity to be a world gendarme, supported only by an unsecured dollar, as a result of the financial crisis, social tensions in the country (hundreds of overcrowded prisons, which are MUCH MUCH more expensive to serve than our prisons, there is catastrophically little money for this, it is likely that there will be release criminals because of this; entire cities of trailers with parasitic families who refuse to work and live on benefits, after cutting benefits, an explosion of crime, unemployment, in a word social crisis). At the same time, the United States, as far as I know, has already been declared bankrupt. The USA has the largest funding for the military-industrial complex in the world, wars / occupation are underway in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen. Aircraft bases around the world, huge funds in intelligence. In addition, either future rivals or no longer loyal regimes are nurturing with the support of Moscow: India, Iran, Venezuela, Syria, China.
    It is impossible to succeed everywhere, but they are trying and have already overstrained, now the USA is moving by inertia and will soon stop.
  30. Vladimir-S
    Vladimir-S 19 July 2011 15: 07 New
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    Dj Firstly, I would like to ask respected administrators to pay attention to something a bit more complicated. I am a computer kettle, but I couldn’t enter, although I remember all my passwords.
    Guys, let's get it that way. Before you write anything, think about 5 times at least.
    Now it’s just obligatory to roll over to Russia. Nobody in this world wants Putin’s return. They start to really fear us. About the article.
    The fact is that ALL reforms, transformations, modernization and updating processes are under the heading of the toilet. Explain everything what is it?
    There will always be attacks on us. Let's not succumb to alarmist moods and filter what is written.
    I will write this. Even the Red Army did not know such reforms at such a pace after the execution of Tukh.
    Our army still needs 2 years. For a complete and final fundamentalization. By the way, Serdyukov leaves for the State Duma in this election. Who will guess who will be IMO?
    About Mistral. info is true. We don’t have a number of technologies that we would spend hundreds of millions of years on. And here, with all the documentation, technologies, etc., etc. Stalin did the same. And yes, at the expense of the oligarch. Even I know which . Do you need this? As the Minister said, people begin to think about high politics when they are full. Or is it not so?
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 20 July 2011 10: 53 New
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      Quote: Vladimir-S
      As the Minister said, people begin to think about high politics when they are full. Or is it not so?

      Not so, "The poor differs from the rich in that he is well versed in expensive watches and luxury cars." A well-fed society, by analogy, is not interested in politics.
  31. mitrich
    mitrich 19 July 2011 15: 24 New
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    VLADIMIR-S,
    back to Ivanov? It seems like big stars were normal to him.
    1. Vladimir-S
      Vladimir-S 20 July 2011 10: 21 New
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      No, Mitrich. There are certain rumors, but nothing more. Ivanov worked his way out. But everyone will be happy, except for the West.
  32. Crane beam
    Crane beam 19 July 2011 20: 57 New
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    beautifully done! Thank you !!!
  33. Rustam 20 July 2011 11: 23 New
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    mitrich Yesterday, 15:24 -2
    VLADIMIR-S,
    back to Ivanov? It seems like big stars normally treated him

    Ivanova you say, yes, when he began mass rollbacks of fifti fifti half to generals, half to managers !!!! and to such figures as he was (deputy army officer of the Moscow Army gene) I generally keep quiet - this is from his submission, and under his strict guidance, until the beginning of 2009 there was a program for re-equipping our army that when there was a conflict in Ossetia everyone saw on what we were going to fight old stuff (thanks to the courage of a Russian soldier, things went uphill then and not thanks to technology)
    Yes, as a curator of the VPC, he did such a grandiose thing, how many scandals they fired someone ??? Pawns, HOW THE BUDGET MONEY was stolen, THESE THEY STEAL AND ALL NORMAL. weapons at unbelievable prices and shove it into our army
  34. makrus
    makrus 20 July 2011 14: 57 New
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    Quote: Vladimir-S
    About Mistral. info is true. We don’t have a number of technologies that we would spend hundreds of millions of years on. And here, with all the documentation, technologies, etc., etc. Stalin did the same. And yes, at the expense of the oligarch. Even I know which .
    I would like specifics regarding technologies, if not difficult. Regarding the "gift", what did this comrade do? Does the question arise?
    Quote: mitrich
    However, this whole situation reminds me of a joke about a black man who was given a finger, and he strives to grab his hand. By "black" I mean the defense industry.
    Yes, this situation is possible. Then a friend wrote about the increased price of the t-90. But in my opinion this question should be sent to prosecutors. In England, the situation was the same with the “manager”, and when the question arose of buying a “leopard” or developing your tank, the British chose the latter despite the fact that they were always outsiders in the construction of tanks. And there wasn’t any competition, here is the tank, here is the price, one manufacturer, one buyer. It’s not for nothing that I mentioned the prosecutor’s office, I think this is their question, if there is an unreasonably high price, then you need to PLANT, PLANT and PLANT. IT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE PEOPLE LIVING BY LAW.
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 20 July 2011 15: 46 New
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      Quote: makrus
      The Russians chose the latter despite the fact that they were always outsiders in the construction of tanks.

      The Centurion was a very good machine, including the Jewish advantage over the Arab T55.
      Quote: makrus
      It’s not for nothing that I mentioned the prosecutor’s office, I think this is their question, if there is an unreasonably high price, then you need to PLANT, PLANT and PLANT. IT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE PEOPLE LIVING BY LAW.

      If the price is too high, this is not always a sign of theft. Firstly, many defense plants are forced to maintain a huge social infrastructure, especially in single-industry towns. And if they stop doing this, then there will also be many people who will say what needs to be planted.
      Secondly, the organization of production in many defense plants does not meet modern requirements, all this imposes serious costs on cost and quality.
      Thirdly, the levels / mass purchases of machinery and equipment are now stupidly not able to reduce costs due to the introduction of elements of mass production. I won’t be surprised that the Germans have the cost of the Leopard can be brought to a level better than the T-90 due to the mass and good organization of the process. Organization of production and quality is able to play at cost indicators at times.
      But you need to drown and hang up after someone has caught the arm.
      1. makrus
        makrus 20 July 2011 16: 38 New
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        This is the role of the state. Everything that you wrote here ... I don’t even want to touch on it ... this is such a question and such a task ... In general, our industry will be pulled by the civilian sector for a bright future and orders will be formed through leasing. Perhaps in the near future there will be a bill prohibiting the operation of Soviet equipment and this will give an impetus to the development of our PC
        1. Superduck
          Superduck 20 July 2011 16: 51 New
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          Yes, telling me this was a lot easier than starting to think about what's wrong. After all, if you throw your brains, then EVERYTHING IS NOT SO! Life is scary.