Military Review

Shotgun in battle

94
Recent conversations on armory topic with interesting people led me to think. Can a shotgun be considered a military weapon or not? Here are my thoughts on this matter.


Shotgun in battle


To begin, let's take a little dip in history use shotguns in reluctant purposes. The most well known use of shotguns in the army and law enforcement structures of the United States since the beginning of the twentieth century. Some models of shotguns have been temporarily adopted by the American forces during the First and Second World Wars, the Vietnam campaign. Then it was necessary to urgently give the units weapons for conducting combat at short distances and in cramped conditions, the so-called "trench guns". In the same police services and in many special forces, shotguns have long become standard weapons. Often in the US units a shotgun is used in a capacity in which another army would use another weapon. This is explained not by the qualitative superiority of the first, but still by the historical traditions of the Wild West and the development of new territories.

It should also be noted that quite recently, at the end of the nineties, the United States Armed Forces operated the program “Joint Combat Combat Shotgun Program”, the purpose of which was to develop requirements for a future shotgun and to adopt a single model for all armed forces. . But in reality, the new shotgun was adopted and purchased in large quantities only by the Marine Corps. He became adapted for the needs of the military Benelli M4 semi-automatic, adopted by the name of the M1014.

The army, navy, air force, and military police units (Military Police, MP) continued to use Mossberg 500 and 590 and Remington 870 pump-action shotguns in different configurations — both with a full-stock butt full-stock shotgun, as well as full-size shortened shotguns with a pistol grip without any stock (non full-stock shotgun).

Shotgun applied:

1. For breaking doors - door breaching; A shot for this purpose is a heavy self-destructive bullet, which, due to kinetic energy, can destroy a door lock or a hinge holding the door, but also completely collapses. Such bullets are used from a distance of 10-15, see. Their range is short, but when fired at point-blank range, such a bullet is deadly. Their advantage is that they do not hit the space outside the door, which is why the special units of the civilian police around the world use them. Ricochet any fragments of such a bullet is excluded.

2. As a non-lethal weapon, or a weapon with a "lower (lower) mortality." Here we have in mind the situation when the troops and the police are forced to fight with mass protests and riots on the streets - riots and firing to kill is undesirable. For these purposes, there are two types of non-lethal ammunition, for firing at individual targets and at group. Both of them are rubber striking elements (canister or feathered bullet) in a standard sleeve.

3. As an offensive weapon - offensive weapon;
Consider the use of shotguns in US Statutes.

The main charter in which one would expect the rules for the use of a shotgun is the charter of the FM 3-06.11 COMBINED ARMS OPERATIONS IN URBAN TERRAIN (General Military Operations in Urban Areas).

This is a very well developed instruction that takes into account all possible aspects of combat in built-up areas, up to and including the protection of troops from Russian jet flamethrowers.

In this charter, the use of a shotgun is stipulated only for one case - the need to break down the door. This is done in Chapter 3, Urban Combat Skills (CHAPTER 3. URBAN COMBAT SKILLS), in the 3-20 Hacking section (BREACHING).

That's what it says.

Shotgun is used for the so-called "ballistic breaking" of the door, when the elements holding the door in the opening (lock and hinges) are destroyed by shots from a shotgun. The section says that fractions №9, canister or bullet are used for hacking. Special ammunition for breaking the door in the statute is not mentioned (this is strange, given that they are adopted).

It is indicated that with proper execution technique, the door is cracked in a few seconds. It is also indicated that the fraction minimizes possible undesirable damage to those behind the door.

There are two types of hacking - hacking through the door handle and hacking through the hinges. In the first case, a soldier armed with a shotgun shoots into the space between the door handle and the door frame. He must make at least two shots, even if the castle was destroyed from the first. If after two shots the lock is still intact, then the procedure should be repeated. During all repetitions, two shots are fired. The shooter must be prepared for the fact that the broken door will have to be “docked” with his foot.

In the second case, when breaking through the hinges, the shooter makes a shot at the adjacent areas with the intended location of the hinges in order to separate the hinges and the door. First, the zone of the middle loop is affected, if there is one, then the upper, then the lower.

Regardless of the burglary method, after the shooting is completed, the shooter with a shotgun pushes or pulls the door toward himself, and moves back, opening the way for other fighters in the group who previously were behind him.

According to other statutes, the search of building sectors is made by fighting groups (fireteams), which ideally should consist of 4 people.

A fighter with a shotgun bursts into the room, the door into which he hacked, the last of them. Thus, in any case, he should not come into contact with the enemy first. The charter does not necessarily require to continue using a shotgun for something after burglary, or vice versa, to switch to the use of the main weapon.

The statute does not provide for any other methods of using a shotgun in a city general combat.

I want to note that for Russia this instruction is largely useless, given the huge number of metal doors opening to the outside.

There are two more points that are mentioned in this charter, and which may necessitate the use of shotguns. The first is that in urban battles zones with the presence of non-combatants, that is, civilians not participating in hostilities, are possible.

The Charter requires that this be taken into account when selecting weapons in a platoon that conducts hostilities. The platoon commander is obliged to take into account this possibility and have weapons that would allow to operate in such places without putting civilians in danger.

The second point is that it is impossible to use grenades in buildings with thin walls or in those that received damage to the supporting structures during the fighting, for example, because of shelling, as this can lead to the collapse of a part of the building or its entirety.

A brief summary - according to this charter, a shotgun in street fighting is a means for breaking doors, and although its other use is not explicitly prohibited, the situation in which a fighter armed with them would rush into the cleaned room was not allowed. This should be done by a machine gunner.

Another charter that interests us is FM 3-19.15 CIVIL DISTURBANCE OPERATIONS from 2005 of the Year (CIVIL WAVE OPERATIONS).

This statute regulates the actions of troops in civil unrest, riots and riots that occur in the territory controlled by a military unit or unit. It is also a very well-developed document that gives combat commanders a complete picture of the nature of the riots, their development stages and effective preventive measures. The statute describes a wide range of influences on crowds of revolting civilians, the purpose of which may be to disperse the crowd or to control it. The main emphasis in the actions of the troops was made on the use of non-lethal ammunition while simultaneously restraining the crowd with forces of soldiers with shields, batons and protective equipment. The charter also regulates actions to open fire to kill, if the commander considers that it is impossible to stop unrest by means of lethal means. At the same time, the opening of a fire to kill civilians is defined as an extreme measure.

It, in particular, says the following about shotguns.

In the chapter on 2 on conducting operations to control the growth of unrest and their avoidance, in paragraph 2-2, devoted to preparing for combating unrest:

In offices, platoons and companies, the equipment with special means may increase, or decrease, if necessary. Some examples.

- Use МХNUMX pistols to arm the groups for detecting and apprehending [riot participants]. The use of long-barreled weapons with non-lethal equipment (such as M9 rifle grenades with non-lethal shots or 16 shotguns) mounted on automatic rifles of the M4 and the M203 carbines is also recommended, especially for support groups (the term owerwatch personnel is used here, those who follow for the development of the actions of the crowd or groups of hostile people, watching them and upon receipt of the order, or according to the situation, use weapons against them, both to suppress actions and to protect other military forces This personnel performs actual fire support tasks for soldiers in the first line or guarding detention groups, and can use both lethal and non-lethal weapons and ammunition).

-Add non-standard weapons, such as the 12 caliber shotgun, to increase your ability to use non-lethal effects.

IMPORTANT. Shotgun is used to protect the shooter with an M203 grenade launcher when he reloads a weapon.

Thus, this statute already provides for the use of a shotgun with non-lethal equipment to prevent unauthorized demonstrations. And further, in the same paragraph:

-Use non-lethal means to keep the crowd at the required distance from the system.

It also states that soldiers using non-lethal ammunition against the crowd should be able to immediately use lethal ones. In the case of a shotgun, this suggests the need to either have live ammunition (bullet, shotgun), or an automatic rifle or carbine. In principle, for soldiers participating in a hand-to-hand fight with rioters, it is required to carry a rifle behind their back with the magazine removed, but for a fighter armed with a shotgun, such a requirement is not directly stated.

The 4 chapter in the list of equipment for non-lethal impacts provides a pump-action shotgun for a cartridge with a sleeve length of 76 mm. It also lists non-lethal shotgun shots - one with rubber grape-shot (М1013), the other with a feathered rubber bullet (М1012).

It is curious that in the previous version of the same charter, from 1985, the role of shotguns was defined differently. That's what happened in FM 19.15.

Shotgun (riot shotgun in the text, a shotgun to eliminate riots, in fact - the same weapon that is used in battle), an extremely versatile weapon, the appearance and possibilities of which have a strong psychological effect on the rioters. In some cases, it is a particularly suitable weapon for operations in civil unrest.

When used with the #00 canister, it is effective at limited range. However, the use of grapes must be limited to special tasks.

For example, this is the ideal “covering weapon” in an antisniper role, during “room by room” inspections, or at important checkpoints that can be rammed by a speeding vehicle (if here it means searching for a sniper — a poorly-armed non-military combatant hiding in premises, it seems so, if not, this is a very controversial statement).

When varying ammunition from the canister No. 00 to the fraction No.7 1 / 2 (currently not used, the Russian equivalent is No.7,5) or No.9, the shotgun can be used with a much lower probability of severe injury or death. This gives the commander the flexibility to choose ammunition suitable for existing conditions.

When using the No. 7 1 / 2 fraction or No. 9, the shotgun is suitable for shooting at single targets, such as those encountered in anti-sniper operations. Due to the fact that the firing range of a shotgun is small, the danger of accidental losses at a distance of 60-70 meters is much less than from other types of weapons.

However, the serious destructive ability of a shotgun at short ranges requires serious restraint in its use in operations against civilian uprisings.

The use of hazardous canister No.00 should be limited.

What the authors of the charter meant by the term anti-sniper struggle, I honestly did not understand.

In addition to these two statutes, the mention of shotguns is contained in the FM 22.6 GUARD DUTY (Guard) service, which says that guard units may be armed with shotguns. Also, a ceremonial statute allows the use of shotguns for ritual purposes. No more mention of shotguns in the statutes.

However, the theoretical studies of the military in the United States go beyond the charters.

Already not often, but still regularly it is necessary to meet statements that the shotgun can perform the role of the main weapon. Some articles indicate that a full-fledged shotgun with a high-capacity magazine (6-10 ammo) equipped with a #00 canister can be used for close combat with an opponent.

In the September issue of INFANTRY (Infantry, Russian, the name of this magazine is often translated as “Infantry Magazine”) for 2006 for a year, first-year sergeant D. Robert Clements published an article “Combat Shotgun in Brigade Combat Group (compound, created on the basis of the brigade, which is part of the division, to participate in hostilities, may have a different composition, depending on the situation during the formation) ".

In this article, Sergeant Clements considers the possibility of using a shotgun in combat in the previously mentioned qualities - breaking doors, non-lethal weapons, and fighter’s offensive weapons. Here is what he writes about the last opportunity (abbreviated):

During the war on terror, the shotgun found a second life in the infantry. In the transition to a "modular" structure, the Brigade Combat Team received 178 shotguns for service.

Unfortunately, there is no single information resource on the use of shotguns, and in parts they have to study different charters, depend on the opinion of some experts, or just do what they can. As a result, shotguns are not used correctly - for example, a short shotgun is used as the main weapon without the support of a spare pistol, and a full-fledged shotgun is used as an auxiliary weapon.
...
A soldier leading a skirmish between houses at close distances can work well with a standard shotgun. However, he must have acquired the skills of charging the cartridge, which he now will shoot and go to the gun.

With only six rounds of ammunition, the shooter can easily find that he has run out of intense skirmishes. Recharging should occur at every opportunity.

Switching to a pistol is another way to remain able to fight when the shotgun's ammunition has run out.

Simply put, when the shotgun hangs, the gun shoots and vice versa. The soldier with a shotgun is fighting with a pistol until he gets the opportunity to reload the shotgun.
...
As an offensive weapon, a shotgun must have a butt and belt. The cartridges must be equipped with grading case No. XXUMX, and there must be an M-00 pistol as an auxiliary weapon. With grape shot, the effective firing range is 9-25 meters, if a short shotgun is used - 35 meters. Using a bullet or future FRAG-10 shots (see below) with improved sights can raise this range to a hundred meters.

Frankly, such recommendations leave ambivalent impressions, and in addition to the infantryman fighting with the shotgun, he must leave his standard weapon somewhere - the M-16 rifle automatic rifle or the M-4 carbine. But then the shotgun in something must give a decisive advantage over this weapon. And this is unlikely.
Perhaps Clements simply tried to convey to the commanders the idea that if they took up a shotgun for some reason, then let them do it right, but there is no direct indication of exactly such an attitude to the subject.

An interesting point is the use of a regular weapon - a rifle or a carbine and a shotgun in turn, by quickly changing one weapon to another in the hands. Clements points out that this tactical method is studied by soldiers at special courses on the use of a shotgun organized in a division. The change technique is described quite well. Apparently this is necessary so that a soldier with a shotgun in his hand would not be taken unawares by an enemy attack after breaking the door or in front of him.

The rest of the article describes the breaking of doors, the use of non-lethal ammunition and training techniques, and also offers a qualification standard for handling a shotgun. Questions on these provisions of this article does not arise.

The certificate of the author states that he served in the 10-th Mountain Division, in the training center. At the beginning of the article, he points out that these recommendations reflect the experience gained by units in battles.

Clements can hardly be called a practitioner, since he did not participate in the battles personally, at least there is nothing about the certificate, and there are no references to personal examples and generally any examples of using a shotgun in a fight.

A very curious complaint from Sergeant Clements is that there is no official qualification standard for using a shotgun as a weapon and separately as special means for breaking doors in the Army.

This article is a typical example of how the idea of ​​using a shotgun as the main weapon is promoted.
There is one more persistent conviction, growing from the fights in the jungle between the Japanese and the Americans during World War II, through the war in British Malaya in the fifties of the last century and then through the war in Vietnam.

It is a conviction that in a very rugged terrain, jungle, thickets, very dense buildings, when the characteristic distances do not exceed twenty meters, the shotgun is able to give a decisive advantage in a collision with the enemy.

It still needs a short historical excursion.

Often the jungle has so dense vegetation that a person simply cannot pass through it without using a machete. The line of sight in such conditions may be less than ten meters, the speed of advancement of the military unit will be measured in a few kilometers per day, or even less. Under such conditions, in the troops of the Anglo-Saxon armies, specific methods of movement of the unit appeared.
The soldiers move in such a situation with a very elongated formation, while the most experienced of them do what they call the take point - “take a place”, that is, take the most risky position that is key for the unit. Such a soldier was named point man - pointman. The Pointman moved somewhat apart from the rest of the group, albeit with preservation of visual interaction, trying not to make any noise. Sometimes he stopped and listened for a long time, examined the ground under his feet for the presence of traps, stretch marks, etc. The rest of the group slowly followed, focusing on its signals. Pointman usually did not use a night vision device, so as not to bring down night vision. He relied on hearing, smell, touch, and intuition. This was a very risky task, since in a sudden encounter with an enemy, the Pointman first came under fire. All the mines and traps also fell to him.

In such circumstances, the power of the first shot from the pointman often decided whether he would survive or not. Since the usual distance with a sudden encounter with an enemy in the jungles of Asia was about 20-30 meters or even less, a shot with a canister in a situation of shooting without thinking actually increased Pointerman’s chances of surviving compared to a semi-automatic rifle. Although it must be said that the popularity of shotguns among these soldiers during the Second World War and the war in Malaya today is overestimated.

Changed everything Vietnam. At first, the American troops did not really need shotguns, since they were armed with the old M-14 automatic rifle, caliber 7,62 mm. The line of this rifle allowed the destruction of one or several enemy soldiers through dense vegetation, and its reliability in general was comparable to the reliability of a Kalashnikov assault rifle.

But by the beginning of the Vietnam War, the days of this rifle were already numbered and it was massively replaced by a new weapon - the M-16 rifle. The latter did not have such reliability, and its bullet caliber 5.56 mm could not always “reach” the enemy through the thickets, so some of the soldiers remembered the shotguns. By the end of the first year of the war, they were firmly registered in the units leading the battles in the jungle, usually one or two per platoon. They were often used by the most experienced soldiers, who fought regularly to be the first to go, that is, to play the role of a Point Man.

Soon, the M-79 single-shot grenade launcher appeared, comparable in weight to a shotgun and a card shot to it, immediately followed by a shot with feathered arrow-shaped striking elements (it was more effective when shooting at people, but it was worse to break through dense vegetation than a canister). Then - the under-barrel grenade launcher M203 and a card shot to it too. All this, as well as the captured AK, and the non-transmitted, in spite of everything, M-14 allowed to conduct dense fire through the thickets, with high chances of hitting the target first, with a hasty aim or without it at all.

Shotgun, moreover, did not require several cleanings a day. Some soldiers confessed that they cleaned it a couple of times a month.

In proportion to the M-16, the rest of the weapon was a small percentage, and although M-16 in most cases justified itself, there were many such commanders and soldiers who did not perceive the shotgun as a full-fledged weapon, since firmly established the glory of weapons, suitable for the first fighter in the column better than the other. In the Army, the Marine Corps and the National Guard under, there are still instructors who are fluent in shotguns.

And even now this point of view is often found in journalism and on propaganda photos of the Ministry of Defense.

Now let's compare how the actual use of shotguns in combat units looks like on the background of the theoretical conclusions voiced.

The practice of using shotguns in the US Armed Forces.

In practical terms, everything is unambiguous. For commanders of all levels and soldiers, a shotgun is a special tool for breaking doors and shooting non-lethal ammunition during police operations. The military police stand out a little apart, but this is a special case.

In the army, no soldier harbors illusions about the use of a shotgun as the main weapon. And now nobody uses it like that, unlike Vietnam.

To get started, let's take a look at Captain Ryan J. Morgan’s article “Tactical shotgun in urban operations” (The tactical shotgun in urban operations by Ryan J. Morgan), which was published in the same journal as Sergeant Clements’s mentioned article in the November issue for 2004 year.

Unlike Sergeant Clements, Captain Morgan was precisely the combat commander - he commanded the companies from the 101 air assault division, and personally led the soldiers into battle.

His conclusions are brief.

Shotgun - a means for breaking the door, and in this capacity it is extremely in demand. Morgan argues that with the use of a shotgun it is often possible to achieve a surprise factor. Morgan believes that the troops should have at least one shotgun in the squad, whereas in reality there were only two per company. Morgan also argues that the shotgun should have the shortest possible barrel, but also a carrying strap and a quick change of weapon from the shotgun to the main one. He says that a soldier may be taken by surprise by the need to use a shotgun as a weapon, and should be ready to do that. Ryan considers the presence of special shots for breaking doors to be extremely important, and if they are not there, then you need to use the fraction number XXUMX.
It is important to organize the familiarization of soldiers with a shotgun. Morgan believes that all the soldiers in the company should be able to use it, although they should not be in every soldier.

The whole article is in fact a confirmation of the thesis that a shotgun is a means for hacking.

At the end of the article, Morgan mentions the extreme usefulness of a shotgun in operations to eliminate civilian strikes.

Morgan also argues that the lighting signals to the shotgun also showed themselves very well and should be at the disposal of the units leading the battle.

The article has an interesting point. Since the fighter armed with a machine gun, according to Morgan, is the least useful in clearing a room, the shotgun is given to him, and he enters the room last. This is a direct violation of the requirements of FM 3-06.11, which say that the machine gunner is the third in a row, and the last - a fighter with a shotgun. One of the reasons for the transition to such tactics Morgan calls a shortage of people in the army, because of which there were seven people in the squad instead of nine.

One way or another, it’s clear from Morgan’s article that the military’s shotgun doesn’t interest as a weapon, but it is very interesting as a special tool.

Also of interest is the opinion of an unnamed soldier from the 75 Infantry Regiment of the Rangers who told the Soldier of Good Luck journalists the following: “One thing I want to clarify, and there’s no confusion, is that we don’t use a shotgun during stripping, or else somehow as a primary weapon. Only breaking doors.

Further, the Ranger explains that they have special ammunition for breaking doors - he calls them the old-fashioned bullet Hutton, and how the shotgun is used when breaking. In general, there is the same as in the charters, and the same as that of the paratroopers, only the absence of problems with ammunition draws on itself.

If you surf the Internet, you can find such references to the use of a shotgun by modern soldiers in American military forums.
1. 82 Airborne Forces soldier, Iraq: We had them, 500 Mossberg, we broke doors. Infrequently. They shot a canister from a short distance, we had nothing more.

2. Soldier, Company I, 3 Battalion, 5 Marine Regiment, Afghanistan: I was an M153 rocket launcher and I only had an M9 pistol in my staff. But when we stood on the bases and we were used as parts of the guard, we took shotguns. On the towers stood with m-4, at the bottom - with shotguns. At the same ranges, I would prefer a shotgun to a pistol.

3. Soldier, Iraq: I was not allowed by the company commander to take tools for hacking due to the fact that I did not recognize the shotgun as a suitable means.

4. A soldier, Iraq, writes to a forum from a base in Iraq: Yesterday they were used, mainly for breaking doors.

5. Soldier, Afghanistan: We always had them in our arms, we used them in the guards, the commander did not want an extra ricochet.

6. Sailor, warship: When we stood on the guard below the deck, we always had shotguns and pistols. And for those outside - M-4 and pistols.

7. Soldier, Iraq: I have seen a lot of them with others, it was even the case that the guys dragged full-fledged shotguns with rifle butts, but no one used them as the main weapon, only for breaking doors. Even those who wore a full-fledged shotgun had an M-4.

This comment is of interest:

8. I was in the Philippines at the end of the eighties, and participated in many exits to the forests. We had 870 Remingtons, with six cartridges in the store, and spare in the cells on the belt, I don't seem to remember the 16 pieces. Each also had a pistol with two spare stores. In the territories around the Clark and Subic bases, we always had point men with shotguns, 2 people per group.

This interesting moment is again connected with the jungle. If you work hard to find the same messages from Vietnam veterans, then the use of shotguns there was much broader than it is now.
There were several comments from former mercenaries who “worked” in South Africa and Latin America. Both of them constantly carried Remington 870 with them, for self-defense, but they used automatic weapons in offensive battles.
All this was no later than the beginning of the nineties, in the jungle and bush.
There are actually a lot of examples. And they all talk about this. Since the days of Vietnam, the role of the shotgun is more and more reduced to the performance of special tasks - hacking, shooting signal and non-lethal ammunition. As a military weapon, it is used now only by the military police and there is an unclear situation of the jungle.

But what about the police, you ask. The movies regularly show how brave cops are at the ready with a shotgun and storming buildings with villains inside.
Alas, the situation here is somewhat different, and it is again connected, not with the stunning properties of a shotgun.

First of all it is necessary to take into account that there is no single police department in the USA. All security forces are on the local balance sheet. And the balance, this one can be very scanty. Shotguns are cheap, and do not require large costs with weapons, and therefore are so loved by the police, as weapons of "gain". This is the main reason, after the "centuries-old traditions."

However, at the moment, due to the improvement of funding in the framework of antiterrorist activities, many departments have begun to switch to rifled automatic weapons (MP-5, AP-15, etc.). The age of shotguns ends here, remaining only in the niche of the “door burglars”
However, the development of a shot FRAG-12, developed by the UK, in partnership with the United States Marine Corps, can give impetus to the development of a shotgun. This is a feathered grenade with three types of warhead - high-explosive, fragmentation and armor-piercing. Initially, this shot is intended for armament of small UAVs carrying a smooth-bore weapon, which is much easier to impart the desired firepower than a rifled small caliber.
But these munitions were tested in Iraq by ground forces. Their development is currently under completion.

The shot of the FRAG-12 turns any shotgun into a grenade launcher, and into a multi-shot one. A fighter with such ammunition can inflict much more damage to the enemy than with a machine gun or rifle. With such ammunition, a shotgun is difficult to call such a word.

The FRAG-12 shot turns the rifle-shotgun into a multi-shot grenade launcher, and the firepower of the infantry’s personal weapons increases by an order of magnitude. Of course, the shot of a standard grenade launcher is more powerful, but an 12 caliber grenade is larger.
Originator:
http://uriadnik.livejournal.com/112311.html
94 comments
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  1. KostA_RikA
    KostA_RikA 16 August 2014 07: 53
    +7
    Why not? The lethal force at altitude in melee is very good. The question is the humanity of such weapons.
    1. serega.fedotov
      serega.fedotov 16 August 2014 08: 33
      +18
      What is the humanity of WEAPONS? Maybe you mean AESTHETICS? (Troupes from Kalash obviously look better than from a shotgun)
      In my opinion, the shotgun is still more of a "police" weapon than an "army" weapon. there is plastic, and the grenades help!
      1. Alex_Popovson
        Alex_Popovson 16 August 2014 19: 35
        0
        But there are doors and the like, there are plastis, and grenades help!

        Now even in the most fart elastite is used.
  2. Ols76
    Ols76 16 August 2014 08: 29
    -2
    I think Shotgun is not the best version of AK much more worthy choice.
    1. GRAY
      GRAY 16 August 2014 11: 05
      0
      Quote: Ols76
      I think Shotgun is not the best version of AK much more worthy choice.

      For opening the doors, the under-barrel module is also suitable, but it seems deaf to us with them.
    2. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder 16 August 2014 12: 19
      +2
      Quote: Ols76

      Ols76
      (1)

      Today, 08: 29




      I think Shotgun is not the best version of AK much more worthy choice.


      A shotgun may well replace Saiga. It has the same power, but also automation with a store.
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 17 August 2014 12: 09
        +2
        saiga - threshing floor.
        The only Russian semi-automatic shotgun that deserves attention and does not require peeling is a boar.
        1. michelle
          michelle 18 August 2014 20: 34
          +1
          I support! Even the Americans bought for their police ... I have the HPE 205 04-noble machine!
    3. Rom14
      Rom14 16 August 2014 19: 39
      0
      You are absolutely right, only Kalash. 5,45, without shifted, in any thicket sewed and just not where to go ... Kartech, zhekan, not for war, of course, and with a slingshot you can fill up ......
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 16 August 2014 21: 11
        0
        As for breaking doors and operations in buildings - I heard about the cool Tula development named RSh-12,7. A revolver under a sniper cartridge of caliber 12,7x55 SC-130 is the one used in the VSSK Exhaust rifle. In size, it is smaller than the smallest of shotguns, and in accuracy, breakdown power and range significantly exceeds, closely approaching the stopping action.
        1. schizophrenic
          schizophrenic 17 August 2014 03: 25
          +4
          Bullets with a length of 19 mm have a folding plumage and are presented in the following versions: high-explosive, high-explosive fragmentation, cumulative. The effective firing range of such cartridges is 200 m.

          • Armor-piercing cumulative bullet, according to the developers, pierces the armor plate with a thickness of about 10 mm
          1. ruslan207
            ruslan207 18 August 2014 19: 15
            0
            The bullet cannot be cumulative for this minimum 37 mm is needed
    4. psiho117
      psiho117 17 August 2014 12: 06
      0
      AK is the choice of 49 years.

      I looked at the calendar - now 2014 ...
      maybe you mean something newer?
  3. Dart_Veyder
    Dart_Veyder 16 August 2014 08: 39
    +6
    Who would have thought that a shotgun is so hard to use. Thanks to the author, I did not know that they were breaking doors.
    1. And Us Rat
      And Us Rat 16 August 2014 14: 42
      0
      Quote: Dart_Veyder
      I didn’t know that they were breaking doors.

  4. Klim2011
    Klim2011 16 August 2014 09: 20
    +4
    Quote: Ols76
    I think Shotgun is not the best version of AK much more worthy choice.

    Compare with AK is not correct, compare with a gun, then the choice is not clear. From 10-15 meters, two shots with buckshot are preferable. IMHO
  5. mrDimkaP
    mrDimkaP 16 August 2014 09: 37
    +1
    Why is he? For close combat? There are expansive bullets. Yes, and reloading one cartridge is such a pastime ...
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 16 August 2014 10: 11
      +8
      Quote: mrDimkaP
      Why is he? For close combat?

      At a distance of up to 30 meters, a shotgun in the forest is preferable to an automatic machine.
      Quote: mrDimkaP
      Yes, and reloading one cartridge is such a pastime ...

      There are various semi-automatic shotguns, the loading of which is no different from the loading of assault rifles (machine guns).
      1. mrDimkaP
        mrDimkaP 16 August 2014 11: 21
        0
        Quote: Bongo

        There are various semi-automatic shotguns, the loading of which is no different from the loading of assault rifles (machine guns).

        I know. But most shotguns recharge on a single cartridge.

        Quote: Bongo

        At a distance of up to 30 meters, a shotgun in the forest is preferable to an automatic machine.

        Probably a little better, but it seemed to me that at such a distance already nevermind.
      2. sniper
        sniper 16 August 2014 14: 27
        +7
        Quote: Bongo
        At a distance of up to 30 meters, a shotgun in the forest is preferable to an automatic machine.
        Not only in a forest, indoors, in a tight urban environment ... In short, where the distance of fire contact is not great and indirect shots are often used (throwing shots). One 9mm canister shot is equivalent to a burst from an Uzi-class PP .. . Well, something like this ...
      3. And Us Rat
        And Us Rat 16 August 2014 14: 50
        +4
        Quote: Bongo
        At a distance of up to 30 meters, a shotgun in the forest is preferable to an automatic machine.



        Quote: Bongo
        There are various semi-automatic shotguns, the loading of which is no different from the loading of assault rifles (machine guns).

        1. enot73
          enot73 16 August 2014 19: 00
          +4
          The fancy version of the "Saiga", made purely for show-off, lacks only bipods and a laser designator for complete happiness. Going hunting with such a "bandura" is just inconvenient IMHO.
          1. Alex_Popovson
            Alex_Popovson 16 August 2014 19: 48
            +3
            Hunting with such a "bandura"

            This kit is wildest adored by the guys from Academi, especially in convoys around the city and the guard. There is no talk of hunting, since a 30-patrick drum is not needed on the hunt, your cap.
        2. air wolf
          air wolf 17 August 2014 13: 14
          +3
          I will notice up to 50 m and Saiga 12 is a "bomb", at a distance of up to 100 m with buckshot, the density of fire is higher than that of a machine gun! I have one in my safe, just in case, and I carry it with the Izh-27-20 on the hunt.
  6. Free wind
    Free wind 16 August 2014 10: 55
    +2
    A larger caliber is needed in the forest. Bullet 5.45 mm, leaves the trajectory. hitting a twig or even a leaf. 7.62 in the taiga, much preferable, or smoothbore. Many tried to hunt with small things. weapons are accurate. cartridges are cheap. but there was not much use for it. And it was not a pity to spend bullets. on the same hazel grouse, but from the small fry it is almost impossible to get through the hazel grouse sitting in the bushes. Oh, and a delicious bird. and grouse broth which is fragrant, no spices needed !!!!!
  7. GRAY
    GRAY 16 August 2014 10: 59
    +5
    By the way, Russian law enforcement officers were perhaps the last in the world to receive such smooth-bore weapons. But they use it (at least for now) by special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation there are no such rifles at all. The question of whether the defenders of our homeland need them is debatable. Although in many countries, very rich experience has been gained with the use of shotguns during various conflicts and military operations.

    • Shooting from a carbine is carried out by special cartridges - firing, bullet, armor-piercing, traumatic, lighting, signal. The operation of KS-K in the units of the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, as far as one can judge from reports found on the Internet, is assessed extremely ambiguously. Claims are made about the quality of the assembly, attention is drawn to the impossibility of replacing a standard forend with a similar part with a Picatinny rail designed to attach additional equipment, in particular the front handle, as well as the absence of duplication on the left side of the receiver receiver of the fire mode for the AK family and shutter handles.
    1. the47th
      the47th 17 August 2014 13: 25
      0
      Here are just people who prefer PP-2000, Knights and Cedars.
  8. Major_Vortex
    Major_Vortex 16 August 2014 12: 43
    +3
    A little bit about Benelli M4:

    Until the end of the last century, the main focus of the military was on pump-action shotguns, such as the Mossberg 500 and 590, Remington 870. In 1998, the US Army Arms Development Center (US AARDEC) announced a tender for the development of a single army semi-automatic smoothbore gun under the index - M1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun.

    According to the terms of the competition, a semi-automatic gun should meet the following requirements:

    - Gas venting mechanism (without any gas regulators);

    - Ability to use cartridges from low pulse to "magnum";

    - 12/76 caliber barrel with a smooth muzzle for mounting special devices (mortirok, etc.);

    - Magazine capacity - at least 6 rounds;

    - The presence of a bar type Weaver;

    - At least 5 out of 9 “00 buck” card grains in a 12-round cartridge could hit a target in 40% of shots from 50 meters;

    - The maximum time for disassembling weapons is 60 seconds;

    - The maximum time for cleaning and lubricating weapons is 20 minutes;

    - Guaranteed functioning of the gun without fail for 10 shots.

    By a wide margin, the Benelli M4 Super 90 combat shotgun, adopted by the United States Marine Corps, won.

    Benelli M4 Super 90 / M1014 semi-automatic magazine gun works on the principle of removal of powder gases. A feature of the system is the presence of two gas cylinders symmetrically located under the barrel, with two gas pistons and rods, which increases the reliability of the automation. This system is patented under the name "Auto Regulating Gas Operated" (ARGO), which can be translated as "self-regulating gas vent".

    The gun is equipped with an underbarrel tube magazine for 7 rounds (76 mm). However, the gun has an officially undocumented feature: in fact, in the M4S90 you can easily charge 9 rounds without any extension cords, according to the 7 + 1 + 1 scheme, where the last ninth cartridge is placed on the feeder tray.

    Today, the M4S90 is used in the following units:

    - Italy: Tuscania Carabinieri Regiment and GIS Military Police (Gruppo di Intervento Speciale);

    - England: Since 2009, the M4 under the marking L128A1 Combat Shotgun entered service with the British Army (infantry units / used in operations in South Afghanistan);

    - USA: US Marine Corps, US Marine Corps, planned to ship to the US Army, US Air Force, US Navy, US Coast Guard to replace the obsolete Remington 870. In addition to the army, the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) also switched to using the M4 .

    The gun is expensive, the price of a civilian modification with a reduced-volume under-barrel magazine starts at $ 1,899.

    Reliability test M4S90 when using ammunition from different manufacturers:
  9. saag
    saag 16 August 2014 12: 47
    0
    he is not needed, a living example of the militia, they started just from the smooth-bore, as soon as the machine appeared forgot about him
  10. bmv04636
    bmv04636 16 August 2014 13: 32
    +2
    Model - USAS 12
    Country of manufacture - South Korea
    Rate of fire (rounds per minute) - 360
    Caliber (mm) - 12 gauge (18,5 mm)
    Cartridge -12/70
    Fire Modes - Automatic

    Our saiga 12 is also good. A shotgun in close combat in urban conditions is the largest buckshot and not a good armored gun at a distance of 30 meters will not help if you do not kill the enemy, you’ll just fall off your feet and that consciousness will lose consciousness.
    1. daladin
      daladin 16 August 2014 13: 49
      0
      looks like an assault rifle
    2. And Us Rat
      And Us Rat 16 August 2014 14: 55
      0
      Quote: bmv04636
      12 USES

  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. daladin
    daladin 16 August 2014 13: 51
    +1
    benelli m4 and saiga are better
  13. padonok.71
    padonok.71 16 August 2014 14: 07
    +4
    A couple of times I watched the work of the guys from the Saiga Sports Complex. Virtuosos. At a distance of up to 30m. an averagely trained submachine gunner will be "shot" at once. But 35m, the limit, there is nothing further to catch with a gun.
    My opinion is that you need to go hunting with a rifle (for mmmm ducks ..., a fairy tale), but for a war it’s an automatic machine.
    Although for self-defense and for the police - it is quite a place to be. I especially look at the traffic policemen, with AKSUShkami, it's already scary that if such a "shooter" decides to use it, horror. Let them stand with rifles, so they will harm, if anything, less.
  14. Vasiliy_81
    Vasiliy_81 16 August 2014 17: 27
    -2
    "oil oil" I'm talking about too many times about taking out the door with a shotgun)) "00" is more of a fraction (4.5 mm)
    I’ll say from experience that the range is too small with a shot, and bullet shooting is also an insufficient range and there is a clear oversupply of power at the expense of accuracy and rate of fire.

    friends who fought in Chechnya encountered the Abkhaz so they had shotguns with buckshot. For a whole month they fought with them at the railway station, they all were killed, but the losses are half of the personnel. A lot of wounded. Apparently, the Abkhazians found that the guns would be more effective than automatic rifles: the range allowed and the most important advantage was off-target shooting.

    from experience: shot No. 7 with a shot from 35 meters, the shot lies very tight, say, up to 20-30 shots will fall into the palm of your hand! and at such a range, the penetrating ability of a small fraction is several times higher than large type No. 3
    1. padonok.71
      padonok.71 16 August 2014 21: 26
      +1
      If you can year? What kind of station and if it’s easy, numbers of units. Thank.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 16 August 2014 22: 09
        +1
        Well, for me personally, only one station comes to my mind - but I hear about the Abkhaz herds with shotguns for the first time, maybe there was some other "battle for the station" unknown to science? belay
        1. padonok.71
          padonok.71 16 August 2014 22: 33
          0
          We will wait for an answer.
    2. Timeout
      Timeout 17 August 2014 12: 17
      +2
      Quote: Vasiliy_81
      friends who fought in Chechnya encountered the Abkhaz so they had shotguns with buckshot.

      Dear, there have never been Abkhazians in Chechnya! There was only the "Abkhazian battalion" of Basayev, which before the first Chechen one fought on the side of the Abkhazian self-defense.


      Personally, I did not observe spirits with shotguns! If so many slave drivers with a gun in the south of Chechnya, and even then it is very rare. Weapons in Chechnya are a status thing!
  15. bmv04636
    bmv04636 16 August 2014 20: 16
    0
    There is an idea of ​​an assault rifle to combine saiga 12 (KS-K-18.5 mm is the same) and pp bison with a screw store. make saigu 12 according to the bullpup scheme and fasten the bison as a grenade launcher
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 16 August 2014 22: 10
      +1
      And the hell goat slaughter? it will not be convenient both as PP and as RB.
      1. padonok.71
        padonok.71 16 August 2014 22: 42
        0
        And like a submachine gun. :-)
      2. bmv04636
        bmv04636 16 August 2014 23: 32
        +2
        Hunters have combined shotguns such as IL-15
        Combined hunting rifles combine the advantages of smooth-bore and rifled weapons. Slicing is done on one barrel, and the second remains smooth. Combined shotgun is more versatile. It is indispensable for hunting, where different game can be caught - from a large beast to game birds. Although when hunting for specific game it is more efficient to use either a purely smooth-bore or rifled weapon.
        1. padonok.71
          padonok.71 16 August 2014 23: 44
          0
          That, yes. But hunting is primarily aesthetics (if not commercial).
    2. brn521
      brn521 17 August 2014 12: 13
      +1
      The bison is heavy and bulky too. Under the trunk does not even fit. And if it fits, the wild balance will work.
      1. bmv04636
        bmv04636 17 August 2014 12: 26
        +2
        I suggest saigu bull paw schemes now apply modern materials, so that the weight is at an acceptable
        1. brn521
          brn521 18 August 2014 11: 01
          0
          Yes, judging by the photo there it begs to attach something under the barrel to balance the structure. But a full-fledged Bison will bring the mass to 6+ kg, which negates all the possible advantages of both a shotgun and a Bison. For hand weapons, you need to keep within about 4 kg. And modern materials, when trying to reduce weight with their help, will inflate the cost under the clouds. That is, if there is anything to cling to the saiga, then something similar to a Stechkin pistol. But I would still suggest something simpler and more logical, like a grenade launcher. Only the range of grenade launcher shots will be expanded. For example, the charge is weaker, instead of a shock fuse - a self-destruct for 3 seconds. So that you can ricochet off the walls around the corner to shoot, without looking up from the sight. Let's add more cartridges with a large round steel buckshot ricocheting from everything in a row. Ricochet off the floor / walls / ceiling can hit a fairly large sector. At the same time, with a short shot, the full power of a large caliber is retained. It can be useful for a "corridor" war if it is not possible to send a large enough group.
  16. Velikoruss
    Velikoruss 16 August 2014 20: 44
    0
    Arkanoid raged bully
  17. gross kaput
    gross kaput 16 August 2014 22: 32
    +2
    Well, by the way, a weapon that can be conventionally called a "combat shotgun" we have appeared long before Saiga - this is KS-23, it was only created by order of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the KGB and, accordingly, consisted and is in service with the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Internal Troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB. In the army, no one even raised the question of adopting it into service. The thing is pretty in itself, although there is a buckshot shot, it has a very large talus (due to the promotion of the container), so the main ammunition is not a lethal wave-r, various gas grenades, both fired through the barrel and from attachments, flash-noise cartridges , plus the "lethal" buckshot cartridges "shrapnel" -10 and 25 and the armor-piercing cartridge "barricade" officially assigned to the special equipment.
    From personal experience with him, I can say that the design is not reliable and designed for a trained user, otherwise it kills at once, due to customer requirements for the use of 23mm caliber ammunition and a rifled barrel, the gun turned out to be bulky and heavy, even there is such a bike that their trunks made from rejects of the trunks of aircraft guns.
    Although a comrade caught in conscription in 96g. in the Chechen Republic, he spoke positively of him to a certain extent, but this applied to that situation. They were thrown there with all the standard weapons and, accordingly, they dragged the KS-23M with them with all the troubles while the maneuverable BS were on its way; his ks rode inside the APC. He came in handy when they were set to guard the TV tower, the green one approached their positions 100-150 meters and the Czechs got such a bad habit - from nothing to do, periodically get into the green one and get naughty. The return fire was practically not effective, they didn’t have heavy weapons (but there were several VOG-17m zinc useless without AGS), and then they remembered about the KS - according to him, after a couple of times the shelling from the Czechs ended with throwing from nozzles 3-4 Cheremukh-12, shelling ceased.
    1. padonok.71
      padonok.71 16 August 2014 23: 42
      +2
      KS-23M is not a gun at all smile
      Rifled, this time. 23mm caliber (all above 20 is an artillery gun), these are two. The trunk is 38 cal. Long (24-39 cal - gun-howitzer), that's three.
      In short, this is a howitzer gun. request
  18. karamultuk
    karamultuk 16 August 2014 22: 43
    +3
    by shotgun: mp153 is now 155 a great creation. why I just didn’t shoot it. it’s rude done, not Benelli. The sharp cartridge works automatically, but it always works out. It feels like it will shoot if you load shit. Or with me got such a party))). however, simple construction and maintainable. For its tasks it works 100%. but I don’t even know what to do with it in field combat conditions. maybe in a city in a very contact battle when you can give a butt on the head?
  19. 2sila
    2sila 17 August 2014 01: 04
    0
    Aha
    And it is "inexpensive"!
    BENELLI M4 TELESCOPIC STOCK
  20. ydjin
    ydjin 17 August 2014 06: 12
    0
    In my opinion, a 12-gauge saiga is better than anything else, firstly, AK reliability, and also try to charge the pump in a battle with one tyk tyk cartridge, or the magazine will be attached, and there are 10 rounds!
    1. Victor-cort
      Victor-cort 17 August 2014 10: 16
      +2
      Quote: ydjin
      In my opinion, saiga 12 gauge is all better, firstly, AK reliability

      alas, the reliability of AK to the reliability of Saiga has nothing to do. + Very shitty workmanship of both Saigi herself and her cartridges.
      1. bmv04636
        bmv04636 17 August 2014 12: 28
        0
        This does not apply to Saiga 12 for practical shooting
  21. Prikaz4ikov1992
    Prikaz4ikov1992 17 August 2014 09: 32
    0
    In the sun you can use shotguns only with 2 nuances. 1 they should be automatic best of all so that they are made on the basis of standard weapons, the same saiga from ak is only different in caliber. 2 version of the cartridge for breaking through the BZ. Well, you can still shoot the shotgun by 1 to the platoon to issue the same thing.
    1. Victor-cort
      Victor-cort 17 August 2014 10: 20
      +1
      Quote: Prikaz4ikov1992
      1 they must be automatic

      nafig are not needed, the main feature of pump-action shotguns is the use of cartridges with different ammunition (sometimes even different geometric sizes in length) with different gunpowder samples. no machine can digest anything like that. No wonder Benelli was made as universal - self-loading (for firing standard ammunition) / manual loading (for firing self-cool and exotic).
      1. Prikaz4ikov1992
        Prikaz4ikov1992 17 August 2014 14: 04
        +1
        the use of ammunition with different ammunition


        there is such a rifle system skar she modular barrel unscrewed usm replaced and all. Based on the same architecture, our analogue of the SCAR 12 was made. What prevents to do the same with saigas? The only place where this cannot be done is aek 971 and a 545.
    2. bmv04636
      bmv04636 17 August 2014 12: 29
      0
      12 caliber rifles at close range does not even require breaking through a person’s armor
      1. Prikaz4ikov1992
        Prikaz4ikov1992 17 August 2014 14: 05
        0
        12 caliber rifles at close range does not even require breaking through a person’s armor


        tell this to the creators of 6б43 with 6 class tiles.
        1. bmv04636
          bmv04636 17 August 2014 16: 44
          0
          well, large buckshot at a distance of 15 meters from the 12 caliber of a bear knocks down
          1. Prikaz4ikov1992
            Prikaz4ikov1992 17 August 2014 20: 18
            0
            well, large buckshot at a distance of 15 meters from the 12 caliber of a bear knocks down

            Have you worn 43? Yes, even there after SVD you will stand on your feet.
        2. bmv04636
          bmv04636 18 August 2014 23: 00
          +3
          an expansive 12-gauge bullet leaves a current hole
      2. Prikaz4ikov1992
        Prikaz4ikov1992 17 August 2014 20: 19
        0
        12 caliber rifles at close range does not even require breaking through a person’s armor


        From SVD and PC do not fall, but from a shotgun should well, well.
        1. bmv04636
          bmv04636 18 August 2014 16: 58
          0
          not from fractions, but from buckshot
        2. bmv04636
          bmv04636 18 August 2014 22: 31
          0
          from 12 gauge these flowers can be grown
          1. gross kaput
            gross kaput 18 August 2014 23: 58
            +1
            Well, somehow it's not 12 gauge, judging by the turret sleeve from 357 to 44.
            And so, for the general development, expansion is prohibited by the Geneva convention, so the military does not have them, the second caveat is that 12 caliber bullets are not used for military purposes, it's stupid because then the very meaning of a military shotgun is lost - to cover a large area with one shot, so the main ones " military "cartridges - buckshot plus special ammunition."
            1. bmv04636
              bmv04636 19 August 2014 00: 14
              0
              yeah right it's revolving
              but there are some
              And as I understand it, when conducting anti-terrorist operations, the convention is on the side. You can shoot like on AK-12 two shots the first bullet the second buckshot
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 19 August 2014 01: 23
                +1
                yes to hell? you don’t understand why a shotgun is used in the army / police?
                For their tasks, a bullet is not needed, because in this case the shotgun loses all its positive properties in relation to army / police tasks, and at short distances up to 5 meters, the effect of buckshot, which has not had time to fly out of the container, is similar to the effect of a bullet.
                1. bmv04636
                  bmv04636 19 August 2014 07: 21
                  0
                  I suggest for a stopping action when stripping in the city. Saigu 12 to make two shots in automatic mode, two. The first bullet is the second buckshot, and as I understand it, the armor plate will not help the enemy will be stopped.
  22. Cossack Ermak
    Cossack Ermak 17 August 2014 12: 17
    +1
    I watched, as it were, a glimpse of the creation in the USA of an automatic self-propelled gun from twin shotguns on the principle of anti-aircraft machine guns. The fire in the crowd was so crushed that it didn't seem enough.
  23. psiho117
    psiho117 17 August 2014 12: 31
    0
    this bald seal in the weapons of the future presented it to us
  24. brn521
    brn521 17 August 2014 13: 20
    +4
    Quote: gross kaput
    after shelling by the Czechs a couple of times ended with casting 3-4 Cheremukh-12 from the nozzle, the shelling ceased.

    The military has grenade launchers, it’s more logical to simply add gas grenades to the armament. It would be nice to have heavy police tanks for handling suspicious cellars. You can also pay attention to civilian mixtures, some of which are quite interesting from the point of view of military application. For example, jet cylinders, from which the room cannot be ventilated for quite some time. Sit a couple of minutes - again, the eyes begin to watery little by little. If you pour not a few milligrams into the basement, but a liter or two, hardly anyone will get into it. There are quite unpleasant options, when you do not even feel the gas at first. And then for a long time you go out of order, proceeding with tears and snot, and move around gropingly. Under certain conditions, this option may turn out to be quite lethal, the enemy at first suspects nothing, and then it's too late, you can take it with bare hands. It seems to me that when firing at enemy strongholds, it would be nice to be able to throw a couple of such chemical munitions as well. In the general batch, no one will notice them.
    Smoke bombs for the prevention of basements in the extreme case would also be suitable, but they have a negative effect, block the review by the applicants themselves. The crafted building smokes and adjacent streets. But judging by the Chechen reviews, the effect of them is quite interesting. Smoke sometimes began to fall from the most unexpected places in the district.
    Quote: padonok.71
    KS-23M is not a gun at all

    Small-caliber grenade launcher. Can a caliber gas grenade in the window on the 10th floor to send. But for military needs it will surely turn out to be unreliable, expensive and not universal enough.
    1. padonok.71
      padonok.71 17 August 2014 23: 35
      +2
      Do you understand jokes at all? I jumped with this "karamultuk" for 4 years like a monkey, until GM-94 was given (to the Tulyaks for many years). Therefore, that there is a KSka, I know better than some.
      1. brn521
        brn521 18 August 2014 11: 56
        0
        Quote: padonok.71
        I was jumping with this "karamultuk" for 4 years like a monkey

        I did not think that with KSka you can jump on an ongoing basis. It seemed that, as usual, it was gathering dust in the arsenal until it was remembered.
        Quote: padonok.71
        until the GM-94 was issued (Tulak long years)

        Military this GM-94 can not be seen as their ears. Himself dear, and ammunition too. The WP6 is more realistic, albeit weaker, and uncomfortable to carry.
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 18 August 2014 12: 35
          +1
          Quote: brn521
          I did not think that with KSka you can jump on an ongoing basis. It seemed that, as usual, it was gathering dust in the arsenal until it was remembered.

          Well, as it were, usually it is not fixed instead of a standard weapon, but in parallel with it, We usually had an AKS-74U or AK-74M and plus a fixed KS. For me personally, it was fixed in parallel with the RPK74 - but I am a separate story and an exception, a lot of chavo was assigned to me (and once such "abundance" helped a lot, but this is a separate story). Well, I had to go around on various events, educational and not only with him, on the basis of all these events the most important conclusion that I made for myself is that a fighter with a COP must undergo additional training specifically for COP - such a brilliant idea came to my mind when one devil to whom his leadership simply put a carbine in his hands and sent him to "big maneuvers" almost blew my head with "Bird cherry 7" - just because he forgot that in the KSe to reload it is necessary to press a key and when the otot is not a good person I remembered that I had banged literally three centimeters from my sphere - if I had started to get up literally a split second earlier, then this William Tell would have blown my head off along with the sphere.
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 18 August 2014 12: 24
      +1
      Quote: brn521
      The military has grenade launchers, it’s more logical to simply add gas grenades to the armament.

      Add to hell if gas grenades for grenade launchers both we and they have?
      1. padonok.71
        padonok.71 18 August 2014 22: 31
        +2
        All answered for me. Thanks. I had this "miracle of technology" together with the SSBN. We had a platoonman - he believed that a machine gunner was such an artilleryman, only with a small caliber and was wildly angry when I did not reach through the walls. Therefore, he "solemnly handed" this piece to me, with a parting word: "Hit my son through the openings!"
      2. brn521
        brn521 19 August 2014 09: 55
        0
        Have appeared? This is interesting, because the instructions about gas grenades seem to have nothing. There is a fragmentation grenade (and there really is), there is a bouncing one (there is, but no one has seen, they will be issued only in the database districts). And everything seems to be.
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 19 August 2014 11: 10
          +2
          What do you mean appeared? mattress makers have them since the days of Vietnam, we have a "nail" for the GP-25 for a quarter of a century, exactly as it is, he calls himself the name of GRAU - a shot with a non-lethal grenade 7P18. Several years ago, Basalt represented a shot for the RPG-7V with a gas grenade, but apparently it was not accepted for service (and thank God), we also have enough hand gas grenades, the most common "blue eye" in the army, used as a training imitation, in fact, is the Ministry of Internal Affairs "bird cherry-1".
          1. brn521
            brn521 19 August 2014 11: 34
            0
            Quote: gross kaput
            we have a "nail" for the GP-25 for a quarter of a century already exactly as it is, he calls himself names in GRAU - a shot with a non-lethal grenade 7P18

            It's one thing when "is". It's another matter when it really is, and there are instructions on how and where to apply.
            Quote: gross kaput
            Basalt was a shot for RPG-7V with a gas grenade, but apparently it wasn’t accepted for service (and thank God)

            Such a bad shot? There, in theory, you can cram a few kg of some rubbish. One shot from RPG-7 on a high-rise building is like a crumbling elephant. A few kg of tear rubbish in the staircase can give a much more extensive effect. Yes, there are gas masks, but even if they are, who constantly wears them? First they sniff, then it comes, then gas masks get pulled on, but it's too late. And on an ongoing basis, wearing gas masks is uncomfortable. It is especially difficult to imagine a sniper in a gas mask. So it turns out, even in combat conditions, an interesting opportunity: there is no way to clean the building within the shot from an RPG, so at least the atmosphere there is corrupted by sticking a charge on the door or window.
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 19 August 2014 11: 54
              +1
              Can you imagine how much you need to access? Bird cherry 6 will completely cope with the five-story building, and bird cherry-12 in the same five-story building will make corpses. Secondly, they take such crap as a non-lethal weapon - can you imagine a direct hit of a grenade from RPG-7? And thirdly, it’s much more interesting for a grenade launcher with RPG-7 to fight with manpower to carry fragmentation OG-7V or thermobaric TBG-7V grenades, but in the fourth, as practice shows, in the zone of the database, fighters in gas masks carry anything, the only thing you can’t find in them is gas masks.
              1. brn521
                brn521 19 August 2014 13: 40
                0
                Quote: gross kaput
                Can you imagine how much you need to access? Bird cherry 6 will completely cope with the five-story building, and bird cherry-12 in the same five-story building will make corpses

                Well, that means bird cherry-12 is significantly superior in efficiency to any OG-7V or TBG-7V there, of which there are many on a five-story building, and from which this five-story building spoils and breaks. That's what we need. And if you use a more powerful shot for RPG-7, then it’s likely that you can block the whole street for a long time if there is no strong wind. This is what a serious opportunity when maneuvering in a city. Well, where was all this junk in the first Chechen?
                Quote: gross kaput
                Secondly, they take such crap as a non-lethal weapon - can you imagine a direct hit of a grenade from RPG-7?

                or bird cherry-7 from the COP. One fig, the task is to break through a wooden door, or a window boarded up with boards.
                Quote: gross kaput
                fourthly, as practice shows, in the database zone, fighters in gas masks carry anything, the only thing you can’t find in them is gas masks.

                I’m sure those paratroopers who were in full force in the first Chechen one could at least carry three gas masks on different parts of the body, if only some rubbish could come to hand, which could temporarily disable entire houses. It turns out to be nonsense, to hit houses from artillery, tank guns and mortars, and worry that civilians could suffer when using powerful police ammunition.
                1. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 19 August 2014 15: 28
                  0
                  Quote: brn521
                  Well, that means bird cherry-12 is significantly superior in efficiency to any OG-7V or TBG-7V there, of which there are many on a five-story building, and from which this five-story building spoils and breaks.

                  Well, let’s say that both Cheremukha and Lilac are known all over the world as CN and CS and belong to reserve OM, which automatically imposes all kinds of convention restrictions on their use by army units. Further, I faintly imagine a five-story building in which in every room there is a crowd of evil beech and bjak - and if this happens then this whole brainless crowd is an excellent target for heavy weapons. The very TBG7V shot solves the problem of separate OTs quickly and reliably, unlike bird cherry, and after using gas grenades it becomes more or less massive, the enemy simply finds a way to equip gas masks.
                  1. brn521
                    brn521 20 August 2014 10: 58
                    +1
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    Well, let’s say that both Cheremukha and Lilac are known all over the world as CN and CS and belong to reserve OM, which automatically imposes all kinds of convention restrictions on their use by army units.

                    This is in the conduct of hostilities, of which there have not been officially in the world for a long time. And in Chechnya we had a kind of police action. And who would forbid to use tear gas there?
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    Further, I faintly imagine a five-story building in which in every room there is a crowd of evil beech and biac

                    Just two or three is enough, why is a crowd necessary? And what, because of them, engage in cleaning every house along the line? Or even to destroy these houses? These few beeches and whips sometimes turned out to be so harmful that tanks had to smoke them from houses. And then in peacetime to restore these houses at their own expense.
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    The same TBG7V shot solves the problem of a separate OT quickly and reliably

                    This is the case when OT is detected. But in our troops there was and is one main method for detecting OT - reconnaissance in battle with inevitable losses. The costs of forming an army upon conscription, soldiers can be written off in bundles, no one is responsible for them. Whereas special equipment costs money. And an intelligent organization too - it is necessary to train real specialists instead of ordinary military bureaucrats, and even pay them a salary. So in Chechnya, regular troops set off to carry out a police rally, without having neither the right equipment, nor the training where this would be suitable. And this despite the fact that you have noted here how cool a single police munition can turn out to be.
                    Quote: gross kaput
                    after the use of gas grenades becomes more or less massive, the enemy will simply find a way to equip gas masks.

                    Well and good, the enemy will have extra problems, of which he already has a lot. This enemy usually acts in small groups, so even one person who sniffs inadvertently rubbish can jeopardize the whole operation as a whole. And as far as I understand the specifics of their work, wearing gas masks will really interfere. In general, if the gas has even a 15-20% chance of causing damage to the enemy or reducing its effectiveness, it must be used.
  25. Bosk
    Bosk 17 August 2014 13: 30
    +2
    A 12-gauge shot into an armored man can be compared to a blow with a horse's hoof for a couple of three meters, otherwise it will be thrown back, again, this "knockdown" will not immediately pass it at best, but most likely rib fractures and other internal injuries are drawn. second, the caliber itself is promising because the 12th is not 5.45 and with it you can fantasize and experiment forever with it on a special branch.
    1. bmv04636
      bmv04636 17 August 2014 19: 17
      +1
      and if you still shoot the shotgun as on the AK-12 with the cutoff of two shots, then you can first bullet the second buckshot
  26. bmv04636
    bmv04636 17 August 2014 16: 56
    +1

    How to make a colander from a car
  27. alex-cn
    alex-cn 17 August 2014 17: 28
    0
    In the US police, a shotgun is considered the perfect anti-sniper weapon in the city. for those 2-4 seconds that are necessary for a sniper to aim, it is possible to produce 3-5 aimed shots from a shotgun, which greatly reduces the desire to aim at a sniper. With regards to the capabilities of the shotgun, at medium distances, there in the 90s, cartridges 12x89 (throwing charge 63g) with 7 mm tungsten buckshot that fit 100 meters into a circle and pierced the then standard NATO body armor were developed under the CAWS program in the 150s , as well as a charge of ready arrow-shaped elements, also doing XNUMX m. Agree that this is not available to every submachine gun. Plus aiming speed.
    1. Sour
      Sour 17 August 2014 19: 32
      0
      Quote: alex-cn
      for those 2-4 seconds that are necessary for a sniper to aim, it is possible to produce 3-5 aimed shots from a shotgun, which greatly reduces the desire to aim at a sniper.

      For an "ideal anti-sniper weapon" you need about the same range as sniper rifles.
      Quote: alex-cn
      Plus aiming speed.

      Aiming speed is determined primarily by the preparation of the shooter. Of course, you can not shoot at the target, but only in its direction. Aiming will be quick. But this is not the main thing.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 17 August 2014 21: 32
        +2
        Quote: Sour
        For an "ideal anti-sniper weapon" you need about the same range as sniper rifles.

        I don’t agree, so long ago there is such an opinion that counter-sniper weapons should have a great range - in order for the shooter himself not to fall under the spell.
        An example is the UN sniper teams in Sarajevo in the mid-90s, the main armament is a 20 mm BAB VAB gun and 12,7 mm McMillan M1987R rifles, an auxiliary 7,62 mm FR-F2 sniper and various 5,56 and 7,62 machine guns
        1. alex-cn
          alex-cn 18 August 2014 04: 30
          +1
          As for the counter sniper, when I first read it, I was very surprised. BUT - in the city you can almost always get close to the shooter at 80-100 meters, the shooting is aimed at suppression, not destruction - it is more important for the police to capture, not kill. firewood from a foreign military review. The article was called "combat weapon chambered for a shot cartridge" and about the curtailment of the program - it may be, but now they are again pushing the A-10, a very close weapon, so the work is curtailed, but not killed. In addition, they abandoned the gun, because of the weight, but the ammunition, in any case buckshot, remained and is used.
          1. Sour
            Sour 18 August 2014 15: 34
            +1
            Quote: alex-cn
            BUT - in the city you can almost always get to the shooter at 80-100 meters,

            Bbw. Even somehow uncomfortable to read this. Not almost always, but almost never if the sniper is not quite.
            If the sniper is on the 8-12th floor, then try, get to him for a shot shot. Or if the width of the street is more than 100 meters, which is not uncommon. And if shooting is conducted from the ground by a sniper in a multi-storey building, then you need to make an adjustment for trigonometry and gravity. Here and 60 meters can be an unsolvable problem for a shotgun.
            Quote: alex-cn
            Police are more important to seize than to kill.

            This is when how. How many years did the police serve to make such statements? Or watched a couple of films about the police? When it comes to the release of hostages or the neutralization of terrorists, the seizure is not necessary. And I doubt very much that the ZVO would comment on the tasks and tactics of the American police. This publication can not be called a policeman, it has a different direction.
          2. gross kaput
            gross kaput 19 August 2014 12: 09
            0
            I was not too lazy and deliberately found this article of ZVO No. 4 for 1995, as expected, there is not a word about using an army shotgun as a counter-sniper uberunderwaffle, but in fact there is not even a word about the tasks of army shotguns - there is just an overview of the structures.
        2. Sour
          Sour 18 August 2014 15: 19
          0
          Quote: gross kaput
          Already a long time ago there is such an opinion that the counter-sniper weapon should have a great range - for the shooter himself to not be able to fall under the control.

          But certainly not a shotgun - a counter-sniper weapon. This is nonsense, and rare.
  28. gross kaput
    gross kaput 17 August 2014 20: 03
    +1
    Quote: alex-cn
    CAWS in the 90s

    Well, as far as I remember, this program was curtailed back in the mid-80s, as it essentially failed, just as the more odious SALVO failed earlier.
    Quote: alex-cn
    In the US police, a shotgun is considered the perfect anti-sniper weapon in the city. for those 2-4 seconds that a sniper needs to aim,

    For the first time I heard about this - where did the firewood come from?
  29. Hawk2014
    Hawk2014 17 August 2014 20: 05
    +1
    As an army weapon, shotguns are useless. But when the "friend" "on the hunt" needs to be "soaked" - then very much even nothing. bully
  30. Signaller
    Signaller 17 August 2014 20: 08
    0
    Yes, everything is fine with our troops. They brought unloading from Chechnya under the smoothbore. Very convenient little thing. And the cartridges under the arm, and the walkie-talkie with its place on the chest - in place and the knife (on the chest) where necessary. So with her to a large beast and walk for ten years or so. Everything at hand.
  31. bmv04636
    bmv04636 17 August 2014 22: 24
    +1

    12 gauge steel plate
    1. michelle
      michelle 18 August 2014 20: 41
      +1
      The hammer rules !!! soldier
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 18 August 2014 21: 24
        +2
        Yeah, you tell my friend, he has both a boar and a Benelli m4, after buying a Benenelli, a boar gathers dust in the closet, and gets out of it only when the purpose of going to the forest is not hunting, and accordingly the gun is needed as a last resort and as compact as possible.
        What is a saiga that is a boar (well, the truth is better than a saiga) is a constructor on the topic after the purchase to modify with a file. I remember another friend helped VPO 205 to a working condition, refused to work normally out of the box at all, once the chimneys - the wrong angle at the reflector was originally set - I had to "modify it with a file", and after installing a not very heavy collimator on the cover after the second shot This opened, most of all the guys from the hammer had fun - after calling there with the question of what to do? they soared my brain for about 20 minutes (and this is on the long distance!) and then gave an ingenious advice - to find! return guide from the GP25 kit and put it instead of the standard one and - possibly! then everything is normalized, as a result it was cured by setting the buffer.
        Well, Saiga, in comparison with Boar, is still a constructor even finer.
        1. bmv04636
          bmv04636 18 August 2014 23: 13
          0

          Learning and can offer this
  32. bmv04636
    bmv04636 18 August 2014 09: 13
    0
    american toy
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 18 August 2014 10: 44
      0
      Yeah, one of the most scandalous (in terms of the primitive drank dough) American pieces of iron.
  33. AlexIvanov
    AlexIvanov 20 August 2014 20: 46
    0
    A revolving shotgun-grenade launcher with a choice of ammunition (buckshot, rubber buckshot, gas grenade, fragmentation grenade, flare, stun grenade, and so on) - this is the optimal use of a shotgun in the army. Yes, and in the police ... KS-23M is an example of this - there is a gas grenade in the barrel, but you need an "opener" right now, and what to do?
  34. Florist
    Florist 20 October 2014 19: 02
    0
    Good article) Thanks to the author!
  35. Oslyabya
    Oslyabya 22 November 2014 15: 21
    0
    Our riot policemen said that they had an enthusiast with Sayozha on sweeps, but even for a short while he was once barely discouraged from the spirit with a Kalash at the sweep - the buckshot didn’t have the strength to break through the barricade from the garbage ... After that, he also started walking with AK.